Advances, royalties, pirated books and other ways authors may (or may not) earn money

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Madeleine Cleary (00:09):
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will
discover the inspiring stories,the authors behind your favorite
books.
No matter what sage of writingyou are at, we've got you
covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
And I'm Madeleine Cleary, andjoin us as we pull back the
curtain of published authors onedeal at a time.

(00:29):
The book Deal Podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners of the land and waters,which it's recorded on.
And pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging.
It's Madeleine here.
I just wanted to quickly drop inand say that for those who want
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(00:50):
We'll be sharing all the detailsWe don't get to cover in our
monthly catch up episodes, andif you sign up.
You'll be absolutely hearing ournews first.
You'll also go into the draw towin a free copy of our books,
including an early copy of mydebut novel, The Butterfly
Women.
Signing Up is free and wepromise we won't inundate you.
It'll just be our news everycouple of months.

(01:11):
You can find the links on ourwebsites or in the show notes of
this week's episode.
We hope you enjoy.

Tina Strachan (01:20):
Do we do we start with like, hi, Madeleine.
Don't we just.
I love how we've been talkingnonstop for like an hour and 15
and then you press record.
It's like nothing.

And this is how we shall start our episode.
We're hello everybody.
We've literally got nothing tosay because we've just been
chatting, which we should haveprobably hit record an hour and
15 ago, but.
Yeah.
Oh, we're so professional.
Hi

Madeleine.
How are you going?

Oh, you know, you, you know what it's like,
just the last month's beencrazy.
Mm-hmm.
I think both of us.
Mm-hmm.
We've both had a veryinteresting month and I, we are
gonna do our little updates forthe month, but, um, and I was
just looking back at my calendarto say, what, what have I done?
Yeah, it's a lot.
It's a lot.
Same with you.
Okay.
I wanna hear all about, I mean,the last time we caught up, you

(02:12):
were in the throes of, um,having your book out.
I think you were like a fewweeks out.
Mm-hmm.
Um, how's the last month been?
Yeah.

Uh, really busy, but super fun.
Uh, so yeah, I'm still in that,you know, the, the very
important two, like eight, sixto eight weeks, they say, don't
they of like really just.
Of, um, yeah.
Pushing the new release kind ofthing.

That's what Amie Kaufman actually said to
us.
Um, which it was something youorganized for our debut crew.
We got to have a chat with herin the last month, which was
fantastic.
Yes.
She said, go, go, go in yourfirst six to eight weeks,
because that's when you got allthe stock in the book shops
before they go and return itall.
Hopefully not.
Mm-hmm.
Or it's sold.

Yes, that's right.
Yes.
It's um, and I have to say, youdo get really sick of seeing
yourself and talking aboutyourself.
Uh, I mean, some people probablydon't, but I do.
And a bit sick of looking at myphone, I have to say.
Um, but.
Yeah.
My advice now that I'm almosteight weeks into it is, yes, you
will go through that, but um,just keep doing it.

(03:14):
Mm-hmm.
Like, you're really only gonnaget this chance and it's really
important.
So just to, yeah.
Just to do as much as you can.
And, um, and when I say that, I,I guess I'm talking, there's a
little bit of socials plays apart of it, but then there's so
many other things, you know?
Um, I've been doing somepodcasts, not just this one,
other people's podcasts.
Do you wanna name a

few so the listeners can go and find them?

Yes.
So Words and Nerds.
Mm-hmm.
I did the, um, really fun wordsand nerds with Dani Vee and, um,
the Australian Book Loverspodcast as well, which was
really fun.
Yes.
That's with, um, one of thehosts, her name is Veronica
Straton.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Like spelt the same as my lastname.
No, but she says Stretchin.

(03:57):
Yeah, I know.
It's so weird.
I'm constantly correcting peoplebecause they say stretch, and
I'm like, no, it's Strachan.
And she, she actually pronouncesit that way.
Did you talk about that on thepodcast?
Yeah, we did because we, we gotno relation.
No relation, which is reallyfunny.
Um, yeah, so, so lots ofpodcasts, lots of, um, you know,
bookshop visits.
Oh, wine.
I saw you did a wine event.

(04:18):
Okay.
Yes.
Tell me about that.
Read between the wines.
Love it.
Yeah, sorry.
Hang on.
Read.
Yeah, read between the wine.
That's right.
God, I thought I got it.
Minute.
And that was at, um, thebeautiful quick brown fox
bookstore up in Brisbane, andit's a teacher librarian event.
So it's, um, I'd always heardabout Read Between the Wines and

(04:41):
I thought that sounds amazing,but I do kidlets, so maybe I'll
just never get to do one ofthem.
But, um, no, it was, uh, threekid lit authors, uh, Kate Foster
and Kirsten Ealand as well.
And we just got to meet somebeautiful teacher librarians.
Um, you know, have a little,have a, have a little beverage
mm-hmm.
And some cheese and, andcrackers and chat about our
books, which was.

(05:02):
Yeah.
Super amazing.
It was a really, yeah, it wasreally nice.
Um, and then last week I didRomancing the Stars, which is,
um, a book, links Brisbane, um,event.
Mm-hmm.
Which is, they have maybe it was14, uh, stars, which are the
authors or the illustrators.
And then people can book in andit's kinda like speed dating and

(05:25):
you go around to.
Each, so there's like groups ofpeople, and as the star, so the
author or the illustrator, you,you've got three minutes to sort
of talk about your book and thenpeople can ask you after that,
people can ask questions, andthen you, I think you've got
another three minutes forquestions.
And then you, they ring a belland the author and the
illustrator move to the nextgroup.
Oh.

(05:45):
And so I have to like, it's kindof by the end of it, I actually,
because I had to say it likenine different times.
Pretty much the same thing.
Couldn't remember what I hadsaid or hadn't said anymore,
but, oh, hopefully it was okay.
But that was super fun.
Just filled with amazing.
Wonderful.
So wait, who

were you pitching to

though?
Um, so they, there's a lot ofteachers there.
A lot of teacher librariansthere as well.
And, uh, lots of.
Aspiring authors andillustrators and lots of
published author, authors andillustrators too, coming along
and, and checking it all out.
So, uh, yeah, that was super funjust to catch up with lots of
amazing crew.

Did your pitch change?
No.
The nine times you did it.

Um, not, actually, not really.
Not really good.
It must have been really goodfrom the start then.
I don't dunno.
Um,'cause I think'cause you'veonly got three minutes, you're
trying to pack everything in andthen sometimes I rambled for too
long and I think it got a bitshorter actually.
Mm-hmm.
Because I was cutting stuff outto fit in and not rush.
But, but that was a reallyexciting event, um, and really

(06:45):
fun and.
Yeah, so there was some coolother events and other ways of
promoting the book, I guess.
Mm-hmm.
Um, doing it that way.
Um, my mom's been doing a hardjob of going around to the
bookshops.
She's been going hard as mystreet team.
Um, and she keeps like messagingme, like, oh, this bookstore,
um, they, they've got.
You know, five books.
Um, there was six thereyesterday.

(07:06):
Now there's only five.
Uh, but they would like you togo in and sign them.
So I get like the, you know, theproper sales stats every time
she be working

for Harper Collins.
She's got the local insight shecan Intel.

It's been really cute.
Um, yeah, so that's been, soit's been really busy.
I think we were just sayingbefore, this is the first week.
I don't have an event for awhile.
I'll have to rustle something.

And in the midst as well, you also messaged
me and said, you've finished thedraft of your latest of your new
book as well.
Is that right?
New writing?
Yes.
Yes.
You've somehow fit this in thecracks.
I don't know how you've donethat.
Yes, I wrote, I typed

the end.

Yes.
And you sent me a, the

um, video of that, which is so exciting.
I know.
It was really amazing.
I think,'cause I had some timeoff with the release of.
Nika and the missing key.
It, I think I've just, apartfrom all the publicity and
everything, I, I found it wasreally important actually to
keep on writing, um, onsomething new when I could.
Uh, I think that was just, I.

(08:10):
Uh, just kind of keeps youconnected still and a little bit
grounded and you know, as I keepsaying, I am everyday writer, so
I think I just have to, I thinkit just happens, but that was
really good to keep someroutine.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I could just get so much done if like, I
have the time it turns out.
So yeah, that was super excitingto just write the end and now
I've got like lots of edits andthings to do on it, but you
know, it's such a big milestoneisn't it, to huge.

(08:32):
Get just the idea out, which isgreat.

Um, and you've also been doing Nika book two
edits.
As well.
I did the type set

for that.
Um, and so that'll probably beback again soon.
So looking forward to doingthat.
It's been really fun gettingback into it actually.
And.
Because it's been a big chunk oftime.
Um, so that was really fun too.
And pre-orders, are they opennow for Nika book too?
Oh yeah, they would be,actually, I'll have to double
check.
It's called Nika in the Storm.
So that's a little bit of agiveaway of what happens, um, in

(09:04):
that book, which is reallyexciting.
So, and ing.

Yes,

you've just gone

through the

cyclone.
'cause we just had a cyclone,like a proper cyclone like it
was, and I live on the coast andthat thing came from the, from
the ocean.
And there was no buffering forus.
It was full on really, reallycrazy.

Are you okay?
Was it all, everything okay interms of where you were

living?
Yeah, like we were, we were, um.
Like we had, our house wasn'tdamaged or anything like that,
but the street was damaged justlike trees just pushed over
everywhere.
Like even just small streettrees.
It just was outta control.
And um, yeah, the beach waswrecked.
Um, but, you know, I'm justgrateful that we, I.
Weren't damaged in our hou andno one was hurt because a lot of

(09:47):
people did suffer a lot ofdamage.
And I think they could even be,you know, I think most people
have their power back on now,but that's, it was a long time.
Mm-hmm.
Some people like 10 days with nopower.
Some people without water.
I had friends coming over andshowering and doing their
washing at my place.
Oh my gosh.
And stuff.
'cause it had just been so long.
So yeah, it was really, it wasreally full on.
So yes, I was editing, uh, aboutNico's Cyclone, uh, sorry about

(10:09):
Nico's Storm during our cyclone,which was.

Very atmospheric

for

you.
Probably not what you want, butyou know.
No.
Oh goodness.
I'm glad that everything isokay.
Yeah.
Oh, thank you.
We're very worried about you,Tina.

Mm.
Yeah.
It was very strange experience,but, um, yes, we're all
recovered now, which is great.
Mm.
So, but yeah, so a really busymonth, but, you know,

uh, things have been ramping up for you
too.
They have been.
And actually, before I talkabout that, I do wanna talk
about something that's beengoing around on social media,
speaking of socials and, um, andoh, also I have an app now on my
phone that restricts my socialmedia content.
Mm-hmm.
I'm only now viewing it.
I, I can access it on a two hourperiod.

(10:55):
During the day, which has beenamazing.
Very, very good for my focus.
Do you wanna tell everyone whatthat app is?
It's called Freedom and AmieKaufman again recommended this
and it's for people who havezero willpower like me.
Yeah.
I highly recommend it.
You know,

it's not just willpower.
And that was another thing thatAmie said, which I've even, I.
You know, I've been spruikingthat advice and it's for the
kids, for my kids as well.
Like she was saying, who am I tostand up against the billions of
dollars that these tech peoplehave put in?
Yes.
To making sure these apps arethe most addictive thing.
Yes.
That exists so that you areactually powerless to stop it.

(11:31):
That's right.
And she's like, I just can't,I'm one person and.
Of course they're hooking me.
'cause that's a hundred percentwhat they're designed to do when
they have psychologists and liketech or the biggest tech experts
there are to make sure that youcan't say no to it and you can't
look away from it.
And so she's like, so I justtake that like.
Decision away from me and thefight away from me by getting,
by using one of these apps thatjust blocks it off for a couple

(11:53):
hours a day.
And, you know, we think aboutour kids with even less
self-control, and it's not theirfault.
These, these things weredesigned to suck them in to
target

you and to, so you, you are consuming their
content over and over and over.
You're powerless.
All of us feed that as well.
And, and this is what somethingI wanted to talk about.
'cause, you know, yesterday, um,and I didn't prep you on this,
Tina, but it's something that Ithink it's important to talk
about yesterday.
So yesterday I think theAtlantic released, um, a
searchable function.

(12:23):
Yeah.
Um, based off the librarygenesis platform, which Pirates
creators content, um, and hasbeen used by meta speaking of
meta, um, to train their ai.
And this is.
Caused a huge discussion, Ithink in across the world, but
in Australia as well, that youknow, Australian creators, so

(12:45):
that's writers, musicians,poets, everybody who is
creating, um, is having their,their pirated work used to train
AI with no compensation.
Yeah.
Um, the shocking thing for us,and was part of a discussion in
our, in our day brew crew forthis year, is that even our.
Debut writers who've been justpublished in the last few months

(13:08):
are featuring on that database,so their work has already been
pirated.
Their books have only been outfor a month or two and have been
already stolen and used to trainai, which.
It has to be something thatwe're talking about more.
There has to be betterregulation of this and
competent, fairer compensation.
Compensation for creators.

(13:28):
What, what do you think, Tina?
Yeah.
It's sad, isn't it?
Mm.
Have you looked your book up?
I mean, I know it's not out yet,but mine is not because I don't
think it's been published, but Iexpect that given many of our
day crew already up there,

mm.

That it will be.
What about you, Tina?
Have you checked yours?

I, I had this really, I was like.
So you, it's a search.
You can actually go and followthe link and it's a search
searchable database.
And, but a part of me was like,I actually didn't even want to,
for some reason write the titlein because I was thinking, am I
just gonna alert it to the factthat.
My
book exists, and then they're gonna, they'll be

(14:06):
like, actually no, we don't havethat one, but now we do.
Um, so I looked up my name andthere is a Teatro that is a
geneticist somewhere, and a lotof his medical papers have been
used, but I couldn't see, Icouldn't see mine.
Um, but I didn't search forlong.
I honestly, I just wanted to getaway from as far away from it as
possible.
But yeah.
It's pretty horrifying and it'suncomfortable.

(14:26):
That's

probably,

that's the thing.
It's really, really unsettling,isn't it?
Because we just Yeah.
We who, like I said, who are weto fight these tech giants and
they, um, I mean yeah, but it'sgonna come down to us, right?
Absolutely.
It's gonna come down to enoughpeople.

Not just creators with the only ones that
can push

back,

but all the people that are, you know, um,
consuming content and, and usingAI and, and, you know, AI is
becoming so important in oursociety as well.
So having regulation around itis really important.
So it's not just up to creatorsto defend our own work.
It has to be people who wannapay.
They're a compensation tocreators for, for that

(15:05):
licensing.
Um, you think about how manythousands of hours have we put
into our work, Tina?

Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
For it to just to be stolenstraight away and used for
whatever,

thousands and thousands and thousands upon
hours of our time in this and tobe, for it to be pirated is just
devastating.
I have another

Amie Health Kaufman, um, reference.
Um.
At another event that I saw herspeak at, she started talking
about it and, you know, and, andhow, you know, upset she is with
the whole situation.
This was before, this was likeprobably six months ago.
And yeah.
'cause she was saying how youcan, you know, type into these

(15:46):
AI generators, you know, writeme 50,000 word book, um, in the
style of Amie Kaufman and, and,um, I don't know, all of the
gods.
You know, for instance, which isone of her books, and you can do
that and it will come out and ahundred percent her very, very
close to her writing style and,you know, all the characters,

(16:08):
all that sort of thing.
And it's just because it's justtaken all like all of her, you
know, back catalog and, and usedit.
So like

that's.
Disgusting.
It's disgusting.
And she hasn't been compensatedfor that.
No, for that.
The training that's gone intothat machine.
So things have to change and Ithink it's really relevant.
I I wanted to raise it'cause oneof the things that we wanted to
talk about on this episode is,is actually about how authors
make money.
Licensing our work mm-hmm.
For AI is not one of themcurrently.

(16:38):
No.
No.
And I, I think I, I wanted to talk about it
because a lot of people, um, asthe, um, my book will be sort of
moving closer to publications,so it'll be, you know, just
under six weeks now, a lot of myfriends and family, so people
who are outside the industry areasking me, so how do you make
money?
Are you going to be able to takemore time off?

(17:01):
What, are you gonna quit?
Yeah.
Are you gonna quit?
You've gotta book out.
Are you gonna go down topart-time?
How, how do you make money?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.

How do you answer that, Tina?
Yes.
How do you make money?
Um, having your books pirated iscertainly not helpful.
Um, yeah.
So I guess, and one thing I'veheard, um, and maybe this is a
myth that we need a bust on ourupcoming episode.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um.
Is that, but I don't think itis.
I think there's actually a lotof truth to it, uh, depending on
who you are.

(17:31):
But the majority of your, Iguess, money that you make by
publishing a book mm-hmm.
Is often on everything else thatyou do around it and not just
books out.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So, um, obviously if you have a cracker and, you
know, sell a lot of books youlike become, you know, like a

(17:53):
bestseller or something likethat, maybe you could.
That's where you'll make most ofyour money.
But, um, a lot of other writersand, you know, especially in the
Kid Lit community, um, doingevents, um, especially speaking
at schools is a really big one.
Mm
mm.
Um,
kids, uh, children's, um, book week CBCA
book week as well, which is.

(18:14):
Actually about a month

long now.
Um, so I heard a myth actuallythat, um, kid lit authors make a
majority of their income in bookweek or book month now.
Mm.
Is that true?
Is that, do

you wanna bust that myth?
Well, I guess I think it's, andI don't know'cause I haven't
worked in a, in a book week yet,but it can be, you know, and I
guess, we'll we can talk a bitmore about this, but obviously
you.
There are fees that you cancharge for speaking and mm-hmm.
Um, the a SA, uh, lists thatmm-hmm.
And that's definitely somethingthat people, Australian Society

(18:47):
of Authors.
Yes.
Yeah, yeah.
Yes.
They definitely have guidelinesfor, not just for schools.
Yeah.
Rates of pay for everythingspeaking everywhere and for how
long.
Um, and, you know, everyonedefinitely should use that when,
mm-hmm.
When they're charging.
Um, because it isn't just the.
Uh, a couple of hours or hourthat you're speaking at the
school for, or the library for,or, you know, some other

(19:10):
festival for you are preppingfor that beforehand.
You're driving.
There you are, you know, it isyour time.
Um, and you know, so you have tomake sure that you're
compensated for that.
Um, yeah.
So you can, because lots ofschools are trying to book out
authors.
Mm-hmm.
In that book week, it's probablythe busiest.
And for some schools, it's theonly time they can get authors

(19:31):
in.
Um, yeah, that's, it can be.
That's probably when you canmake a lot of bookings.
Mm-hmm.
Make, you know, maybe the mostof your money for that.
Just go hard Absolutely.
In that sort of week and, um,yeah, and, and book it out.
Book it out and book it out.
Yeah.

James Hinchon (19:51):
Hi, my name is James Hinchon and I'm the author
of Llamas in the Library, whichis my debut picture book.
Llamas in the Library is out nowin stores around Australia and
is published by Five Mile.
Ian Waral.
Dutton is the incredibleillustrator of the pitch book
and there's been such a joy towork with him and Five Mile in
this process.
My wife and I work in aneducational setting, and our

(20:13):
family is heavily involved inthe agriculture program, caring
for sheep, alpacas, andchickens.
This naturally led me to writethis story.
Llamas in the library is aimedat young readers, uh, four to
about nine and is a cheekyrhyming story about 13 llamas
that wreak havoc throughout aschool.
Students stumble upon thisoutrageous situation and must

(20:35):
work together to corral thealamas back outside to their
paddock in the school Ag plot.
Throughout the journey, teacherscan be heard shouting.
There's llamas in the libraryand we need to get them out,
which is essentially the hookthat the story is built around.
It's a lot of fun and I reallyhope it connects with young and
older alike, particularly thoseinterested in these fun loving
goofball animals.

(20:55):
Thank you for your support andfor the Book Deal Podcast for
the opportunity to share withyou all today.
Bye for now.

Okay, so let's talk about, so let's go to the
start.
So, um.
So if you are, if you are anemerging writer, I think this
will be really interestingbecause this is how from when
you sign the book deal untilwhen you get to the point where
you are booking, making mm-hmm.
Sort of kids bookings.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you earn money along thespectrum.

(21:27):
And I found this quiteinteresting.
Before I signed my deal tounderstand how it is that will,
and that people throw around allthese words as well.
So we can try our best toexplain it.
Um, and if we are wrong, peoplecan tell us and correct our
knowledge

please.
Or send us some additionalquestions as well if we don't
cover off on them.
Yes.
Because we were thinking ofdoing, you know, maybe another
episode where we delve into itwith.
Someone who knows more.
Perhaps someone who's the pro.
Yeah, we can either talk, Iguess, from our experience and
in saying that, I thinkMadeleine, you, you know a lot,
so please tell, tell me.
I try, I'll try my best.
You correct me on what I, whatmy thoughts are.

(22:05):
Okay.
So

when you sign your contract, you may or may
not be given an advance.
Mm-hmm.
Correct?
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
What is an advance,

Tina?
So an advance is money that yourpublisher will pay you.
As a, an advance of your sales,basically.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so if you get a thousanddollars advance, then you have
to sell enough copies for you tomake a thousand dollars back in

(22:41):
your royalties and not athousand dollars worth of.
Actual book, but as many booksas it takes for you to make a
thousand dollars in royaltiesbefore you then see additional
money after that in royalties.

That's right.
So it advance is an advanceagainst future earnings.
Mm-hmm.
So you are, so the publishersbasically saying, we're gonna
give you this amount of money.
Because in future, when youstart earning money against your
book, we want to, you sort of,you know, give you this in

(23:13):
advance.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and then as soon as you areearning, you are selling books.
You earn out, um, once you haveearned up to that account, so
you will receive in advance andthen you will only start earning
money on your book sales.
Once you've earned out thatadvance.

(23:34):
Mm-hmm.
And some people don't ever earnout.
No.

I

have some stats

actually.
Okay.
I was just gonna mention thatsome people don't get any
advances Correct.
For various reasons.
Um, and off, you know, maybesmaller publishers.
Can't do that, but there's anupside to that.
Mm-hmm.
In that as soon as you sell onebook, you start getting
royalties.
Exactly.
Exactly.
And then, you know, it may soundamazing to get, you know, a
seven figure advance on yourbook.
Yes.

(23:58):
But also you may also neversell, you know, um, out the
dollar and then that's it.
And that's, you know, so and soyou'll never get royalties.
So there's a flip side toeverything.

And it's interesting because, um, I, I've
been seeing a few, um, thingscirculating on social media
about this.
Um, they like to say, oh, thatthey signed a six figure book
deal, which I.
Sounds like a lot of money.
Uh, a six figure book deal.
Um, but when you break it downan advance is also paid in

(24:30):
installments.
So it might be you don't get thefull mon amount of their money
generally straight away.
You get, I.
A portion upon signing yourcontract, you get a portion upon
delivering your first edit.
Yes.
And then you get a portion whenit's released.
So if you break all that down,and that might all happen over a
course of couple of years.
Mm-hmm.
Um, you're then also payingtaxes on, on that advance as

(24:53):
well.
Mm-hmm.
So, um.
Six figure book deal is amazingin Australia, and I'd say most
authors do not receive that muchin in advance.
But even having a six figurefigure book deal doesn't
guarantee you being able toleave your day job.
But you have some stats, don'tyou?
I do.
So did you know Tina?

(25:14):
Mm-hmm.
This is based on the Australian Society of
Authors 2023 survey.
So it's the latest stats I couldfind.
Mm-hmm.
31.
So close to 32% of authors inthis member survey received no
advance.
And these are traditionallypublished, traditionally
published, that's correct.
Mm-hmm.
So 70% of authors received anadvance of less than 5,000.

(25:42):
Of those who earned in advance.
So of, so you've got about 32%of that have no advance.
But of those who did, um, earnin advance, only about 60%
earned out.
So about 40% never saw anothercent after their book was
released in the world.

And I guess I was gonna say, can you hear that?
I think it's the sound of everysingle one of our aspiring
author listeners just switchingoff and like going, that's it.
Putting their pants down.
They're like, I'm not, I am notwriting anymore.

I was just gonna say, this is sounding very
doom and gloom.
But we don't do it for themoney, that's the thing.
Right?
No, no, but but having saidthat, there are, so this is,
this is just talking aboutadvances and royalties.
Yeah.
So there are other ways to earnmoney as an author, um, to

(26:35):
support yourself that are.
Beyond this and, and you know,we're talking about things like
book week, um, speaking events,festivals, um, but also side,
side things as well.
So things like starting podcastsand, and newsletters and, um,
you know, so you've, you've gotother, other things that are in
the, the pipeline as well.

(26:55):
Um, royalties.
Can you explain what royaltiesthen are,

uh, probably not as good as you, but so royalties
is the percentage that you getpaid for each one of your books
mm-hmm.
That we sell.
Which can, which, yeah.
There's, there's a lot of, Iguess, different royalties and
they're made up of differentthings.
Mm-hmm.
Um, if you so say, I thinkthere's a.

(27:23):
10% is like a pretty standardmm-hmm.
You know, amount that you get ofRods print of the, of the
recommended retail price.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so 10%, if you have, if you're doing an
illustrated book, yourillustrator will get a
percentage as well.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and then there's a, a whole world of

(27:45):
other.
Things that can go into that.
And like you said, so that was,that's for print, say as an
example.
Mm-hmm.
And then if you have an audiobook, there'll be, you know, a
different percentage perhaps.
I think it's about 25% differentsize.

It's generally about 25% for audio and, um.
25% for eBooks as well.
Mm-hmm.
So I guess we should also saythat, um, you know, your ebook
advance is also gonna beseparate from your print
advance?
Um, well, it depends actually.
Depends.
It depends.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so, you know, you might bewith a publisher that will

(28:19):
license those ebook, uh,audiobook writes to another
party, and then they will pay inadvance.
On top of that as well.
So there's lots of differentthings.
If you sell your right tooverseas, you will get an
advance from internationalpublishers for each one of those
sales overseas as well.

(28:40):
So that all starts, you know,um, adding up.
Um, if you get optioned, um, fora movie or a TV series, you will
get an amount of money for thattime as well.
And that's a whole other sort ofkettle of things.
So there's lots of differentavenues, I suppose, um mm-hmm.
As an author.
Yeah.

(29:01):
Yes.
So the royalty is thatpercentage that you receive
every time there's a book sale.
Mm-hmm.
So, for example, the butterflywomen will be.
34.99 RRP recommended retailprice.
Mm-hmm.
And so 10%,$3 50 per book, minusGST, of course, but it's about$3

(29:22):
50 per book.
So when people ask me, how muchmoney will you be getting when
you, when we, when we buy yourbook, I say about$3 50.
And people are shocked outsidethe industry actually to hear
that.
And they go, oh.
The publishers must be takingall that money.
I'm like, no, no, no.
You've got, you've got a factor.
And I just

think to myself, these books take years to make.
Yes.
Years to make.
And I can't even count how manypeople have contributed to it.
Multiple editors, the typesetters, the, there's people
behind the scenes that I don't,didn't even know about.
You know, like designers.
It's not just illustrators, butthere's designers and there's
cover designers and there's, youknow, people that haven't met.

(30:02):
Just the printing costs paper.
The paper is a huge thing at themoment.
People may not realize papercosts has gone up.
Drastically, um, you know, theprinters.
The distributors.
Mm-hmm.
The packaging, the marketingpeople, and the, just absolutely
everything that goes into it.
So when you go, well, a$32 bookand you get$3, what about

(30:24):
everybody else?
That's right.
It does, it just, it.
Yeah,

and so obviously the publishers need to
make money, so that's Al alwaysgoing to be a thing, but they're
certainly not taking the rest ofthat 32.
For themselves.
For themselves, yeah.
They are also selling at adiscount to booksellers.
Booksellers also have their ownoverheads, particularly the
bricks and mortar booksellers.

(30:49):
They will get it at a discount.
They then sell it, and they musttake a cup of that book as well.
And we wanna support our.
Bricks and mortar booksellers,especially our independence as
well, as much as we can.
So, you know, um, there's,there's, we're actually having a
chat today in our debut crewabout the difference between
when a book's discounted, do youget the same amount from a, a

(31:11):
discounted book as you wouldselling for the full retail
price?
There is a difference, but itdepends on how much of a
discount that retailer got.
Um, then you get the netreceipts.
Um, the net receipt.
Uh, so you get the differencebetween what the publisher is
earning, which is the netreceipt at 10%.
So, um, that would be perhapsabout a dollar 50 instead of$3

(31:36):
50 if they're selling it at ahigher discount to retailers.
And they would do that for, youknow, those big, big companies,
um, that like Big W who aregonna sell huge volumes of
stocks that you have.
Yeah, that's, that's good.
That's, that's good.
It is

discounted, but it's, um.
The volume's bigger, right?
That's right.
And it's all

part of this landscape, this distribution
landscape that we are part of.
So it sounds low, but there's awhole lot of things that go into
that.

Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
There's a lot.
And it's, it just is differsfor, for each person and, um.
Yeah.
I love how different we are onthis, Madeleine, as in you are
like, I wanna know my print run.
I wanna know exactly how much Iget paid for everything.
I wanna know how the sales aregoing.
I need to know everything.
And I'm just like, I will knowwhen my statement comes in and I

(32:26):
don't need to know before thatbecause it is not helpful for me
to know that.

I just, I know it's so funny.
Um, be my thing.
I think because I've come froma, um, book selling background.
Yeah.
That I'm.
I have this really stronginterest in this.
Yeah.
In, in.
And I think the other thing aswell is, you know, like it would
be nice to be able to dedicatemore time and energy to writing.

(32:52):
If there is a moment where Ihave that opportunity in the
next few months, um, I'm goingto do that and try and step back
from work a bit and have thatopportunity.
So I'm curious to sort of trackthis and understand, okay, where
are we heading?
What are we doing?
Um.
What, what might that look like?
And the other interesting thing,I think too, um, we were talking

(33:13):
about, um, in the, in our group,ELR and PLR.
Yes.
Yes.
Which is another way thatauthors earn money, um, through
libraries.
And this has actually surprisedto a lot of people in the
outside the industry.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and it hasn't always

been that way though, has it?
It's relatively.
Recent and it's, I believe, isit?
Or is it the electronic lendingrights that was, that's very
recent, isn't it, with the audiobooks?

It absolutely is.
It's not something, it's likeonly happened in the last 20
years.
So essentially the governmentwill compensate writers, um, for
the loss of book sales by peoplelending the book.
From the library.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and we discovered recentlythat it's based, it's not based
on, so I didn't tell you this,but I borrowed your book at our

(34:02):
local library and then justimmediately returned it.
'cause I'd already read it and Iwas like, yeah, I'm giving Tina
some money.
I was like, borrowed, borrowedit.
But no, that would not havegiven you any extra money.
It's actually based on how manycopies are in circulation at a
time when they do a survey andthen you will.
Receive a nice little check inthe mail.
Mm-hmm.

(34:22):
Mm-hmm.

But you know, it probably, yeah.
So that's a bit, uh, I guessthat's a bit confusing for some
people that didn't, didn'trealize that.
I didn't realize that.
Um, but by getting, borrowingthe book though, it does kind of
show the demand and so thelibraries might get more if
they're always out.
So true.
Thank you, Madeleine.
You

did help with that.
Yeah.
That's true.
That's true.
And so the more copies that arein circulation, the more money
gets, the more demand, the morethat people are checking it out,
like the more demand there is.
So if you are, if you are alibrary user and I'm a big
library user, you are alsocontributing to author's salary
and income.
So absolutely.

(35:01):
Continue to use your libraries.

I heard a really interesting stat.
Okay, myth, I'm writing thisdown for our Myth Busters
episode, so I don't think it's amyth.
I, I.
Did absolutely hear it.
And, um, but just to get somemore confirmation around it
would be cool.
Um, in that there was some stat,and I'm probably gonna get it
wrong, but it was around forevery one book that's, that's,

(35:25):
um, borrowed from the library,it does generate a.
Like another 4, 5, 6 salesaround.
That equates to that.
So the importance of having yourbook in a library as well,
although it's like people aren'tpaying money for it every time,
but there's a stat around itbecause people are still reading
it and I guess then there'salso, then they're recommending
it.
Mm-hmm.
You know, and they're
talking about it.

(35:45):
Um, they could even post aboutit, so they haven't paid for it,
but they've in a roundabout waycontributed to more sales.

Amazing.
And, and, um, I was actuallytalking to, um, a friend's mom
who's part of a book clubassociated with the library they
order in, and there's about 20of them in this book club.
The, the, the library's actuallyorder in 20 copies of the book.
And then distribute it at once amonth, a different book once a
month, they choose, the librarychooses it.

(36:14):
How wonderful to have 20 copiesof your book circulating in just
a local branch of a library.
Yeah.
I, that's invaluable.
Mm-hmm.
I'm finding like most, you know,I.
New publish books, you are luckyto get one to two or three
copies.
Yeah, generally, unless you'relike a big, you know,
bestseller.
So the more copies incirculation.
Yeah, like you said, word ofmouth is probably what sells

(36:37):
books the most, um, which is,you know, really organic and
lovely.
So, and it's a long

game really, isn't it?
Like it's, everyone wants tocome outta the gates as a
bestseller, but really what youwant is for people to read the
books and love them.
Yes.
And they have a long, long lifeon the shelf.

Exactly.
And once you know as de oremerging sort of early career
writers.
You probably won't be mostpeople according to, you know,
the a SA survey results won't bereceiving lots and lots and lots
of money in their first year or,but I was, um, this is
something, you know, talkingwith other authors about.

(37:14):
Sometimes it's their second orthird or even fourth book that
really propels them and thenpeople will go back to their
first or second or third booksand read their back list and
that's, you know, so it's, it'snot to say.
Give up.
I'm never gonna make any moneyon this, so why bother?
Like, both you and I didn'tstart writing because we
expected to make any money fromit.

(37:35):
I, I remember the first time I,I think I won a, like a, um, it
was a writing prize and I thinkI won$500.
It was for a short story.

Tina Strachan (2) (37:46):
Wow.

I

know it's pretty good.

I was like, what, what competition was this?
It was the, actually, I'm justlooking up.
I've got the award on mybookshelf, the Em Fletcher
Writing Award, and it was in2022.
Um, great competitions, um,based in Canberra, but um, it's
for open to all Australianresidents.
And yeah, I came second, I thinkin the award and I, I won this

(38:10):
$500 and I remember when it hitmy bank account, I was like, oh
my goodness, I have been paid.
For my writing like that.
Mm-hmm.
This is the most incredible,that's incredible.
Amazing thing ever.
Mm-hmm.
And I'm not to say that weshould discount and just accept
whatever, and, you know, thatwriters should be paid little
and dah, dah.
I'm not saying that at all, buthanging onto the fact that we do

(38:31):
this because we love it.
We get paid for it.
That's amazing as well.
Mm-hmm.
Um, we both, you and I have beenpaid for our work, which is so,
so, so cool.
And it's a privilege that noteverybody has had in the past.
Yeah.
Um.
Yes.
Not discounting that ridershouldn't be paid more.
I think they absolutely shouldbe.
But sort of holding onto that,if you're feeling that feeling

(38:52):
like, oh, I'm never gonna makeany money out of this.
Just those little small wins canhelp too.

Yeah, absolutely.
And I think that's why it'simportant to.
Um, have a look at the as SAwebsite and that's gonna be my
top tip for the episode.
I dunno if that was gonna beyours and I've stolen it, but
No, that's a one, one tip forthe episode is have a look at
the as SA website and check outtheir rates of pay.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and it's important to, I guess, use that

(39:19):
as your guide as well.
And if everybody just is, isaware of what it is that they
need to.
Expect, I suppose.
And, uh, yeah, make sure thatyou're charging for everything
that you,

that you should be doing.
So that's really important aswell.
Absolutely.
And actually that's aninteresting one because, um,
I've.
I'm gonna be doing lots oflibrary, um, visits, um, and,
and um, sort of appearances,which is amazing.
Um, some of them I'm doingduring my publicity period in
May, and I've made it quiteclear.

(39:51):
One, I've been asked, oh, areyou going to be donating your
time to the library or will yoube.
You know, charging the As SAstandard rate.
And I know that it's oftencommon during publicity periods
to donate your time, and I'mhappy to do that, but I made it
very clear because it's in thefirst few weeks of my publicity
campaign that I'm happy to dothat because I don't wanna set a

(40:14):
standard for other authors tojust do these things for free.
Because often there is anexpectation, oh, well if you're
selling your book there, thatyou will be.
Speaking for free.
And it's a, it's a, it's a cost.
You have to drive there, youhave to prepare for the
presentation.
If you're on a panel, you haveto read the other books.
Um, you are giving up not justthat one hour of your time.

(40:34):
So I think there is a fairexpectation that, that people
get paid for those things.
I've got other events that willbe not during the publicity
period, and in those periods Iwill be, you know, paid for
that, which is, um, amazing.
And libraries actually are givenfunding for author's
appearances.
So if you are an author outthere and you are.
Worried about asking to be paid,refer to the a SA.

(40:57):
And to be honest, the librarieshave been amazing and they've,
they've actually referenced thea SA.
Standard rates of pay in advancebefore approaching me.
So they've actually in theirapproach

Yeah.
Said Yeah.
They'd know about it.
Yeah.
And they know about it becauseof all the other authors ahead
of you that stuck to it and, andquoted it all the time.
Yeah.
So do stick to it.
They do inspect it.
Yeah.
Um, and you're right, they,it's, they do have a budget for
it.
Um, yeah, but I, I think I, Iguess in those first few weeks
of.
Um, the promotional period, youare mm-hmm.

(41:28):
You are trying to sell your bookmm-hmm.
And get the word out there.
Mm-hmm.
So it does make sense that you,you know, you are, you're happy
to sort of do whatever you needto do Yes.
To sell the book.
And then afterwards, it's almostlike you are actually drawing
people to the library or to thebookshop or something like that.
So it's, so initially thebenefits for you to get that,
that promotion for the book andthen.

(41:50):
After that, it's the benefit isfor you as well, but it's also
the library then asking you andit's beneficial for them to have
you, you come in.
Yeah.
So I can see.
I agree.
And that's But that's when youcharge.

Yeah, no, exactly.
Exactly.
So, um, I guess then to answerthe question when people are
asking me, um, you know, are yougoing to be leaving your day job
or, um, the short answer is.
No, but that doesn't mean, andI, I had this great chat with
Natasha Lester last week, andit'll be coming up in the week

(42:24):
after this one.
Um, she's like, aim high.
If you're an early, if you're anemerging writer, if you are a
early career writer, why nothave the goal of being one day a
New York Times bestseller?
Because that's one of her goalsfor this year is to, to get back
on the list.
And so I was like, oh, but whatabout goals for us?
Like, that's not gonna berealistic for us.

(42:44):
She's like, no.
No aim high, you know, just you,you can still, um, aim for these
things.
There's nothing wrong with that.
Um, if you don't hit the mark,that's okay, but, you know, look
at so many authors whose thirdbooks have been the ones that
have been the big superstarhits.
So, um, yeah, you've just gottakeep going and going and going.

(43:06):
So.

Everyone's journey is different and you
cannot predict it.
So I think you've just gotta dowhat you can and, you know, and
obviously enjoy it at the sametime.
And I totally agree with, um,you know, aiming high.
'cause you have to, right?
Like you, you have to, you haveto hope.
You've gotta

have the hope.

You've gotta have the hope.
And, um.
It kind of forces you then intodoing the, taking the steps and
you know, is it a bit ofmanifesting?
Is that what we call it?
I don't know.
Yes.
But it makes you just take thosesteps that are in the right
direction.
I think it's very important tobe ha be a little bit realistic
about it because I.
As well.
Mm-hmm.
Course, I mean, we know, we knowthat you might make, you know,

(43:44):
you might make no money at all.
Yeah, yeah.
No, you know, I, I, you know,maybe you sell a handful of
books, maybe it's a completeflop or, but just being real
realistic about the industry andof course, you know, the money
and, and side of it as well.
Mm-hmm.
But, um, but just, yeah, butalways looking and always having
that, that goal of beingsuccessful.
Yes.

(44:04):
'cause it certainly can't hurtand to channel that energy.

And why not

you?

Absolutely all the authors have that have
become super bestsellers or, youknow, they, they are just normal
people as well, so, absolutely.
So why not you?
Um, mm-hmm.
So I guess we don't wanna leavethis, this episode on a negative
tone.
We don't wanna put anyone off.
But also I think, you know, ifyou are put off writing.

(44:31):
Mate, because you're wanting toearn money from your writing,
maybe.
Maybe it's not the right.
Maybe it's not the right.
Right.
Because I know like you and Iknow, even if we didn't get paid
a cent for what we do, we wouldstill be writing every day.
Yeah, absolutely.
Um, it's something that we pourout heart and soul into, and
it's something that I'm gonnacontinue to do even.

(44:53):
If I'm just getting that$500award, which is amazing.

Yes, I know.
It's just like a little addedbonus.
Right, exactly.
I was writing these booksanyway.
I was writing anyway, so thefact that they're getting
published and um, is just, and Imight get paid for it, is great.
Exactly what a cherry on

top.
Exactly.
So for any people who arelistening and wanna help out,
writers buy their books.
Borrow their books, attend theirevents, attend the festivals,
engage.
Um, these are all the thingsthat you can do to help us, um,
and call out anytime you can,particularly if we've got some

(45:31):
influential people on the callwhere, you know, you see a need
for better regulation, betterpay for creators, um, and
protection of creators content,um, online.
So were they all your top tipfor this episode, Madeleine?
My top tip Tina is yes, buy andborrow books.

(45:54):
That was an excellent top tip.

Alright, thanks Madeleine.
Good to chat.

Tina Strachan (2) (46:03):
Thank you for listening to the book Deal
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new drop.
To keep up to date with what thepod is doing.
You can also find us onInstagram.

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