In this episode of the Book Deal podcast, host Natasha Rai dives into the debut novel 'Melaleuca' by Angie Faye Martin. Angie, an Australian writer of Kooma, Kamilaroi, and European heritage, shares the journey of her career transition from policy roles to writing. She offers an elevator pitch of 'Melaleuca,' a gripping crime novel involving Aboriginal detective Renee Taylor, and explores the themes of violence against Aboriginal women, sovereignty, and intergenerational trauma. Angie outlines her writing process, including her use of dual timelines, the influence of personal experiences, and the importance of layered storytelling. She also gives insights into her publishing journey, mentorship, and the role of patience and enjoyment in writing. The episode concludes with advice for emerging writers, emphasizing the importance of research, patience, and maintaining a balanced life.
00:00 Welcome to The Book Deal Podcast
00:56 Introducing Angie Faye Martin
01:48 Discussing Melaleuca: The Elevator Pitch
05:10 The Inspiration Behind Melaleuca
14:08 Angie's Writing Journey
17:34 The Publishing Process and Mentorship
25:13 Kasey Whitelaw's New Book Announcement
26:50 Cover Design and Serendipity
27:48 Signing the Contract
29:21 Promotions and Public Speaking
33:52 Writing Routine and Balancing Life
35:14 Planning and Writing the Sequel
42:03 Tips for Emerging Writers
47:23 Final Thoughts and Reflections
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tina Strachan (00:09):
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will
discover the inspiring storiesbehind your favorite books.
We interview seasoned and debutauthors, as well as publishing
industry professionals to bringyou the best tips and advice on
how to get that elusive bookdeal.
So no matter what stage ofwriting you're at, we've got you
covered.
(00:29):
I'm Tina Strachan.
I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And I'm Natasha Rai.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one
deal at a time.
The Book Deal podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners, the land and waters,which it's recorded on.
And pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging.
Natasha Rai (00:56):
Angie Faye Martin is a writer and editor of Kooma,
Kamilaroi and European Heritagewith a Bachelor of Public Health
from the Queensland Universityof Technology and a master's of
Anthropology from the AustralianNational University.
Angie has spent many yearsworking in policy roles in state
and federal government beforelaunching Versed Writings in
(01:19):
2019.
Her work has been published inMeanjin, Garland, The Saltbush
Review and The Rocks Remain.
She is a member of the FirstNations Australia Writers
Network and accredited with theInstitute of Professional
Editors.
(01:39):
Good morning, Angie.
Faye Martin.
Welcome to the book Dearpodcast.
Angie Faye Martin (01:44):
Thank you so much for having me, Natasha.
I'm delighted to be here.
Natasha Rai (01:47):
It's great to have you.
So, um, we're here to talk alittle bit about your debut
novel Melaleuca, as well as yourpublishing journey.
Um, so is it okay if we startwith you giving us a bit of an
elevator pitch from Melaleuca?
Angie Faye Martin (02:03):
Yeah, sure thing.
Melaleuca is about, uh,detective Renee Taylor, who is
working down in Brisbane.
She's got an amazing career.
Uh, she's worked hard to getwhere she is.
Um, she's quite determined,quite fierce.
She's aboriginal and she'sstruggled against certain
(02:23):
things, um, in her life to getwhere she is.
And then she gets a call fromher mom, and her mom is.
Uh, suffering from debilitatingarthritis in her hands.
And they're struggling.
She's struggling to get by.
Um, and they, her mom lives inthe country town where, um,
(02:45):
Renee grew up.
It was just the two of them.
And, uh, her mom can't find acarer, and so she asked Renee to
come home and.
And help take care of thingsaround the home.
Renee being the dutiful daughterthat she is reluctantly agrees
and arranges a secondment withwork.
(03:06):
So she's um, kind of demoted, Isuppose, from a detective back
to being a comfortable, and shegoes back to Garga, the little
country town where she grew up.
Um, it opens on day two andRenee's.
Kind of bored, a bit frustrated.
She's helped her mom all weekendaround the house and she gets to
(03:30):
the office early and then shegets a call from a resident.
A resident has been down walkingby the creek and has found the
body of a woman.
And Renee, um, fires intoaction, goes down.
Um, and Renee, uh, nobody knowswho this young aboriginal woman
is.
(03:50):
Renee's assigned to theinvestigation and, um.
Ask around town who, who knowsher.
Um, no one has reported hermissing.
And so it becomes quite aperplexing case.
Renee is assigned to it.
And then as she digs deeper intowhat may have happened to this,
(04:11):
um, young woman, she discovers alink to the past.
And so Melaleuca is based ondual timelines set in.
The year 2000 and then 1965where, um, two women went
missing.
And yeah, obviously the casesare linked.
(04:32):
So that's Melaleuca in anutshell.
Natasha Rai (04:35):
Thank you.
So having read it, um, Iabsolutely loved it and I found
myself.
Flying through it, um, becauseit was so gripping and, um, I
don't read a lot of crime onfiction and this just grabbed me
and what really struck me wasthere are so many different
(04:57):
elements and I'm gonna be verycareful'cause I don't wanna give
anything away'cause there are afew twists and turns in it.
Um, but I was just curious abouthow they all kind of came
together for you in the writing.
I guess the first thing I wantto ask about is, this is a story
about Aboriginal women and, andI know in your author's note
(05:19):
you've talked about, you know,violence against aboriginal
women and violence in indigenouscommunities sometimes and how
it's portrayed.
What was your starting point?
Was that, was that your startingpoint or did you, did that come
into the mix as you startedwriting?
Angie Faye Martin (05:35):
Yeah, great question.
So maybe I'll go back a littlebit.
So.
Starting point.
Very good question.
I actually started writingMelaleuca about 10 years ago.
A lot was happening for me.
Um, and I mean, quite a fewreaders say there is a lot going
on in it, and that's probablywhere I was at in life 10 years
(05:56):
ago.
I was in my early thirties.
I was living in Melbourne, um,and.
I was working for the publicservice and I had followed, you
know, my parents' directions andgot a sensible job, and I was
enjoying it to a certain degree.
I'd studied public health andthen I did my master's in
anthropology and developmentstudies.
(06:17):
I really wanted to serve thecommunity and I, um, I love the
intellectual side of things aswell, writing briefs and
analyzing policy, but I foundthat it wasn't enough for me.
I felt like there was justsomething bursting inside me.
And I remember going for longwalks with my husband and
probably driving him crazy.
Just, um, a bit of a chatter boxand thinking through all these
(06:39):
things.
Um, I was also reading crime atthe time.
I was reading a few crimethrillers.
And struggling to process a lotof my thoughts.
And I thought as I was walkingaround Carnegie Dunn in
Melbourne, I was picking offMelaleuca bark, paper bark and
starting to think aboutpersonalities and complexity and
(07:01):
the layers of things.
And I think I just said to myhusband, maybe I could put all
of this in a, in a crime story.
That would be so awesome.
Um, like maybe that could be mycanvas just to explore.
Um, the complexities around someof those themes that you talked
about being.
Um, political determination andsovereignty and, um, violence
(07:27):
against Aboriginal women.
And there's a bit of addictionin here as well, like helping
family members through addictionand mental health struggles.
I mean, in my early thirties, Ifelt like I had a lot weighing
on me and when the idea of, youknow, the paper bark in
Melaleuca came to me, I thought,yeah, I'm gonna do that.
And I went home and, um, startedjotting down ideas and feeling.
(07:50):
Just an amazing sense of reliefcome over me.
I actually was a smoker backthen, and I remember feeling
like for the first time in ages,I don't feel like I need to have
a cigarette.
Like this is just giving me so,such a wonderful sense of
relief.
And then I got obsessed with theplot.
And the plot is a little bitinspired by, I've talked about
this previously.
(08:10):
This is probably the, like if Ihad to pinpoint.
An inspiration.
It is, um, the abandonment ofthat my father felt when he
reached out to his biological,um, grandfather.
And I didn't realize that thatwas something that had stayed
with me.
Um, I found out when, when I wasabout eight years old, I watched
(08:33):
my dad be rejected by his.
Biological grandfather when hereached out to him, um, in a
moment of, you know, bit ofloneliness, I think he reached
out to his biologicalgrandfather who was a wealthy
white man down in, in Brisbane.
And to see him get rejected madean impression on me at the age
(08:53):
of eight.
And I wondered why did that, youknow, man, not wanna know our
family.
Why did he not wanna help dadout?
And I guess as I went throughlife, you know, this idea of.
Uh, men abandoning theirchildren or just having children
that they don't want to, to, um,acknowledge, um, stayed with me.
(09:15):
So that kind of was the, thecentral kind of element to the
plot.
And then I went from there justgrabbing all the themes that I
was wrestling with in lifeidentity, especially, uh, which
shows up a lot in Renee'sstruggles just as a character.
Natasha Rai (09:31):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that struck me.
Um, and you know, my other jobin addition to being a writer is
a counsellor.
So I work a lot with peopleexperiencing grief, and that was
something that came through inMelaleuca as well.
Mm-hmm.
The kind of the imprints that weget through our families.
Um, and it just struck me justnow when you were talking about
(09:52):
your dad, um, that imprint of,you know, being pushed aside or
unacknowledged.
And that's something that I, itfeels to me personally as that
we hold as a country thisunacknowledged violence that was
perpetrated on indigenous andaboriginal peoples.
Like there is that kind of echoin this, in these women's lives.
Angie Faye Martin (10:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think, you know, we often.
We're starting to refer to itmore as intergenerational
trauma.
Um, but I think some people inthe aboriginal community don't
relate so much to those words.
I think it is a profound senseof grief and also just a bit of
a.
Uh, overwhelming confusion.
It's like, why are thesefeelings coming up for me?
(10:36):
But it's interesting that youmentioned grief as well,
because, um, I don't think I'vetalked about this before, but I
did start writing Melaleucaaround the time that my
grandmother passed away andthat, um, it was quite sudden
she lived a very rich andfulfilling life, but she did
pass away suddenly from a heartattack and, um.
The character of Josh isactually based a little bit on
(10:56):
that and Josh loses his mom.
This isn't a spoiler.
That happens quite early.
Um, in, in the story and I wasalso wrestling with, um, you'll
see in Josh's character, he.
Feels like he's not processingthe grief of his, his mother.
And at the time I felt like Icouldn't fully process the grief
(11:20):
of losing my grandmother becauseI was wrestling with all of
these other things going on.
And I felt even a little bit ofguilt about that in the early
drafts.
Josh was a much biggercharacter.
Um, but slowly as I delved moreinto Renee, Renee became more
central.
But I had many more chapters onJosh in the first few drafts.
Natasha Rai (11:40):
Yeah, and definitely, yeah.
And also there's the, this echoof grief.
Um, and I'm gonna choose mywords carefully so I don't give
anything away, but in the past,in the 1965 timeline, what
really, uh, what really spoke tome and touched me was the deep
sense of love in, in thosefamilies.
Even, even when we're describingone of the girls, is a bit wild.
(12:02):
It, it just spoke to me ofyouthful exuberance and, and,
and wanting to have fun.
Wanting to experience this lifethat's feels small and, and the
way we judge that, especiallyputting on this lens of
indigenous kind of populationor, I don't know, there's
(12:23):
something around you have to bea certain way, but there was
just so much love in thesefamilies and so much acceptance
that just really spoke to me.
Angie Faye Martin (12:32):
That was really important for me.
Um, when I was draftingMelaleuca often we're hit with
just overwhelming poverty pornand you know, uh, when you read
some accounts of Aboriginalhistory, it is violent, it is
awful, and there is a place forthat.
But when I grew up, there wasalways an effort amongst my
(12:54):
Aboriginal family to.
Have fun joke around.
Some of our humor can be prettydark, but I guess that's just
the way we deal with thingscoming together and yawning and,
um, growing up you are awarethat people see Aboriginal
people as being full of despairand at times we definitely are.
(13:15):
'cause of what we'veexperienced.
But we do also have a, you know,fun times, a lot of good times
and, um.
When, so the 1960s timeline,which is really where you see
the community coming together,that's based on my dad's
experience of growing up on theYuba, which is a fringe camp in
(13:35):
was a fringe camp back then.
Um, and.
When I hear stories based ondad's childhood experience
growing up on the fringe camp,they are full of poverty and
hunger, but heaps of games,childhood games playing by the
creek and Yabby.
And I wanted to shine a lightjust on the humanity that
(13:56):
existed in those communities,how much they loved each other
and cared for each otherfiercely.
You know, and that's how we'veremained, uh, resilient.
Um, people.
That's how we're still heretoday.
We just fiercely care for eachother.
Natasha Rai (14:08):
Hmm.
And that came through sostrongly for me, but, you know,
I'm, it's such an interest, likeall these beautiful layers that
you've, that you've written intoyour novel and I'm, and, and
crime is the vehicle that you'veused to kind of highlight all of
that, was it more than kind of,you said you earlier that you
were reading a lot of crime atthe time.
(14:29):
How, how did that vehicle comeabout?
Angie Faye Martin (14:31):
Like is it because you're, honestly, I
didn't crime reader or, uh,look, I was reading a lot of
crime at the time, but I don'tthink I read everything right.
It was just, that was what I wasreading.
I was reading Gillian Flynn andI liked the suspenseful kind of
page turning genre, and I wantedto write a story that I enjoyed
reading, but I don't think I setout too deliberately to write
(14:54):
crime.
I feel like.
It became a crime novel, um,because of, you know, I had a
detective, I had a crime, and itbecame a vehicle for me to
explore these issues.
And over time I did play intothat genre.
'cause I realized it workedbetter.
Um, it was what readersexpected, and I used those
(15:15):
conventional kind of cliffs.
What, no, what do you call it,cliff hangers and hooks that I
was reading about in my craftbooks.
Mm-hmm.
But I do feel like Melaleuca isnot strictly in the crime genre.
I think it could be generalfiction or historical fiction.
You know, it's, and, and allbooks are, you know, like all
books kind of, um, overlap intoother genres that that's true.
Natasha Rai (15:39):
And at the same time, you've managed something
quite extraordinary with yoursin that there are all these
flesh tight characters and Ireally like the pacing of the
story in the two thousands.
Like it's only set over a fewdays once the investigation gets
going.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And I, it felt both fast andalso, um, really this lovely
unfolding of the links orpotential connection between the
(16:03):
past.
And I was just, I was full ofadmiration of how you navigated
that and how you wrote that sobeautifully.
Angie Faye Martin (16:11):
I think I have to thank my mentor a little
bit.
Um, I often found those slowbits actually really easy and
enjoyable to write.
So a lot of the slow bits Ithink are to do with Renee and
her mom, just domestic sceneswhere they're just talking, you
know, nonsense in the house andor Renee collecting eggs out the
back.
(16:31):
My mentor said, no, this isreally good.
Like, I'm enjoying these things.
I'm like, I feel like I'm justplaying around.
Like I don't feel like this isserious writing.
Um, but she encouraged me tokeep pursuing it.
And so I did.
And then over time when I readit back to myself, I realized
that there was a nice flowhappening between the, the
(16:52):
intensity of the investigation,um, and also some of the heavier
themes where.
Quite confronting things happenand then you just, uh, return to
this domestic, not tranquility,but like playfulness.
And I thought for the reader itwas a nice ebb and flow.
(17:12):
Um, definitely.
And it was also just fun.
I just liked writing.
You know, Renee and how she getsalong with her colleagues at the
station.
And I think it's also howcountry folk just banter a
little bit.
You know, you just, that's howyou get by and like you just
talk a bit of nonsense, talk abit of crap, and, you know, pass
the time.
And I wanted to bring that outand yeah, in the story as well.
Natasha Rai (17:34):
So you've mentioned a mentor, so let's, um, go into
your publishing journey.
So 10 years ago you had thisidea.
And you started writingsomething, was that your first
foray into creative writing?
Angie Faye Martin (17:47):
It was for a long time.
Like I used to muck around whenI was a kid and stuff.
Um, and then I kept reading, um,always reading a lot, but I was
just doing academic writing.
And then, so this burst of anidea came through, uh, it was
called the Paper Bark Trees atfirst, 10 years ago.
And then.
I kept going with it just on theside.
(18:08):
I was quite obsessed with it,but I didn't have much time
'cause I was working full time.
And so I just read craft books,play around with a few
paragraphs, share it with a fewclose friends.
Um, my husband and they, theytold me later they were relieved
that they could tell me it wasokay and it wasn't complete
crap.
Um, because they would've toldme if it was crap too.
(18:29):
They're, they're good friends.
I trust them.
And so they get, like, theysaid, yeah, go on, keep going
with this, you know.
And I did.
And then I, um, looked at a fewcompetitions.
'cause I thought, I can't reallydo this just by myself.
It would be cool if I could winone of these competitions where
you get a mentor for a littlebit.
(18:49):
Mm-hmm.
Um, so I looked into those.
I did, um, I did get rejectedfrom a few, but they, they were
great, um, competitions in thatthey still gave me a
recommendation for how I couldimprove it.
Natasha Rai (19:04):
Okay, so it's a short letter, and I know it's a
while ago now, but do youremember what they were and if
you had to submit the fullmanuscript or did you, was it
excerpts?
Angie Faye Martin (19:15):
Um, so I think it was just excerpts.
I think I submitted two.
Two, yeah.
But I don't wanna say which onesthat were, they were Australian.
Natasha Rai (19:26):
Okay.
Okay.
But were they specifically kindof crime related or just general
adult?
Angie Faye Martin (19:32):
Just general adult fiction.
Okay.
But I remember I got like a twopage summary report with a
little bit of a prompt where Icould take it.
And so it was still helpful.
It was excellent.
It was like a disappointing, Iwas heartbroken at the time, but
then I was like, no, I'll keepgoing with it.
And then, um, I got my longservice, leave three months and.
(19:54):
Was excited'cause I could devotea lot more time to it.
And then I found the HarperCollins First Nations commercial
fiction fellowship, whichrequired a 70,000 word draft.
So I set my goals on that waslike, I'm gonna, you know, get
this story into shape, get it to70,000 words.
That was back in 2019 and I wassuccessful in that competition.
(20:17):
And as part of the award, I wasassigned a mentor for 12 months.
And just as I was assigned that,um, I went over to Adelaide and
met my mentor Amy Matthews overthere at Adelaide Writer's Week.
And then, um, the COVID lockdownstarted so lucky I got in that
quick trip over there, I couldmeet her in person and then came
(20:39):
home and was able to work.
Under her kind of tutelage for12 months.
It was, I was also closelyconnected to the publisher at
Harper Collins, Joe Mackay, whoI've continued to work with now.
Um, and so that process wasincredible.
Mm-hmm.
Natasha Rai (20:57):
And can I just ask something about that?
So with your mentorship, wereyou working on different
elements like structure, um,characterization, like those
kind of broad strokes to get itinto a tighter form?
Angie Faye Martin (21:09):
Everything.
Yeah.
So she would do like a full um,read through.
And then provide me with like abit of a manuscript assessment
of how I could improve itoverall.
She also did point out what Iwas doing well, which I found,
you know, encouraging.
So she was always like, yeah,your dialogue is great.
Oh, thanks.
Never even really studied that.
That was just something thatcame naturally.
(21:31):
Point of view I struggled with,and so I had to do a few extra
courses on point of view.
Um, I was head hopping, sogetting in too many characters
heads and so that was theweakness for me.
Um.
Pacing was something that I wasokay at, but I really needed to
improve given the crime genre.
(21:52):
So I read lots of suspense craftbooks and um, hooks and
cliffhangers and, you know,entered the scene late and leave
early, that kind of thing.
Um.
But Amy really met me where Iwas at in my journey, because I
already had pretty decent vocaband everything.
I've, you know, had a master'sin academic writing, but there
was some real basics, like pointof view that I just didn't get
(22:15):
at all.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so it was yeah, tailored towhat I needed.
So Amy, um, read a few drafts,gave me feedback on how I could
improve it, and then after thatyear, I was, um, brought over to
Joe Joe mackay at Harper Collinsand given more in depth kind of
manuscript, um, manuscriptassessments From there.
(22:39):
Finally got the contract in,sorry, go on.
Natasha Rai (22:41):
I was just gonna say this would've been what,
2021, right?
Angie Faye Martin (22:44):
2021.
Yep.
Kept, kept working at it.
Um.
I got the contract and that was2023 I think.
What are we up to now?
2025.
Yeah, 2023.
And then it was pretty much, itwas all done for a long time, to
be honest.
Like, and then it's a matter of,um, choosing the right
(23:07):
publishing window.
So the publishers put a lot ofthought into when to release the
book.
Um.
Natasha Rai (23:14):
Yes, I understand that because I had the same, I
signed my contract in 2023 andmine came out 2025, so I know,
yeah, yeah.
That sense of time.
But when you won the uh, prize.
Was the publication like anoption or was it a guaranteed
thing, like you do a year'smentorship and then...
Angie Faye Martin (23:32):
No.
Okay.
It wasn't, and I was naive, likeprobably now in hindsight, I
probably look, would look aroundfor an award.
That guaranteed publication.
No, I basically just hustled.
I kept hustling.
I didn't even really understandthe publishing world.
I just thought, oh yeah, theyseem like, uh, really.
Um, professional people, likeexperts in their field.
(23:55):
I wanted to work with the best.
So I looked up both theirprofiles and I was like, yeah,
these people know what they'redoing.
I didn't really look into theins and outs of whether the
award involved a contract.
Um, I don't regret it, but itdid become a little bit of a
hustle towards the end.
It was like, you know, when do Iget a contract?
When can I put the book out?
That became a little bit hard atthe end.
Natasha Rai (24:15):
So you sounds like you had a lot of confidence in
Melaleuca at by that point tokind of.
Uh, well, yeah, you said hustle,but you know, to be had that
confidence to keep going becauseI know what I was like back
then.
I was terrified of everyone.
I don't know why, but, um, and alot of emerging writers, you
know, they, they get reallynervous about pushing, pushing
(24:37):
themselves forward or asking forthings.
Angie Faye Martin (24:41):
I guess it was probably my pathway into it
because I had, you know, wonthis 2019 fellowship and then it
was like, okay, so what now?
Like I've put in seven years orso at that point of time into
this manuscript.
Natasha Rai (24:56):
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
Does that fellowship stillexist?
Angie Faye Martin (25:02):
No, I think they only ran it once.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (25:04):
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Well, you were right time, rightplace.
Yeah, yeah.
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(25:33):
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(26:17):
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A case hunt is available now.
Natasha Rai (26:35):
So how much, um, was the word, how much, uh,
input did you have into thecover?
'cause the cover is stunning.
Kasey Whitelaw (26:43):
Um, so none.
Well, they asked me for a fewideas.
I sent through a few photos, um,and I thought.
It would be like a outbacklandscape, like silos or
something.
But when I saw it, I wasabsolutely blown away.
Uh, I loved it.
I'm sure I could have, you know,asked for changes if they had
given it to me, and I don't likeit.
(27:04):
But I told them from thebeginning, I trust that you're
the experts in, um, cover designand yeah.
So when I saw the beautiful, um,blues and gr blues and greens
was what I secretly wanted, butI didn't pass on that um.
Requirement or anything.
'cause I thought it would bebeautiful if it came back in
Blues and greens and then itdid.
(27:25):
And I thought, oh, this isserendipitous, it's meant to be.
Um, but yeah, Darren Holt, whodid all of Trent Dalton's books,
designed this one for me andit's actually the, um, crows and
Nest, uh, waterfalls, which isjust outside of Toowoomba, and
that's what Crystal Ponds isbased on in Melaleuca.
Natasha Rai (27:46):
Yeah.
Gorgeous.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you signed the contract.
Um, how was that?
That must have been, I dunno, aculmination of everything you've
been working on.
Angie Faye Martin (27:56):
Right.
It was a blur.
I remember being in Spainactually, and.
Because my husband's Spanish andyou know, life is crazy.
Ooh.
I was thinking my mom came overfor a visit and I got this
contract and I rememberthinking, whoa, this just got
serious.
This is awesome.
This is great.
This is what I wanted.
But then also thinking there areso many words in this document
(28:17):
that I do not understand.
Um, so I got a lawyer to look atit.
Mm-hmm.
Um, paid for my own lawyer.
I looked up.
An expert in, um, what do theycall it in the arts, like film
and television, entertainment,law.
And yeah, he looked over it to,for me, I did heap of research
(28:38):
into all of the differentroyalties and everything, um,
and signed it off and sent itaway.
And I think, yeah, it was, itwas a nice experience, but I
still felt like I, there wasquite a bit of work ahead of me.
I felt like it was just thebeginning and it was true.
Something in me was like, thisis just.
You know, the beginning of avery long journey, because next
comes the, uh, the promotionsand the, uh, publicity.
(29:02):
So finding the contract was,that was actually quite nerve
wracking, but finding thecontract, I know people actually
celebrate with champagne andeverything.
For me, it was like, this isserious.
I felt like this is a newjourney beginning.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Which is exciting.
Exciting but scary.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (29:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I get that.
And also, um, you mentionedabout promotions.
So your book, so you signed in2023 and Melaleuca came out in
June.
Yeah.
Beginning of June.
So how has it been?
How was it in the lead up?
What was your experience like?
Angie Faye Martin (29:37):
I mean, I was pretty nervous leading up to the
release of Melaleuca.
Not so much about the quality ofthe book.
'cause I feel like I put enoughwork into it and I read enough
to know, like I don't wanna.
Sound like a big nole, but Ikind of felt like it was a good
book.
It was more the public speakingand the publicity, and I don't
really like that, you know,natural.
(29:59):
I, I'm starting to enjoy it nowthat I've done enough, but I was
so scared and so Ed byeverything, I tried to make it
as enjoyable as possible bydoing the things that I like.
So I bought new lipstick andnew, new heels and new clothes
and just tried to make it funbecause I was like, this is
gonna be a big part of my lifenow.
So.
(30:20):
Um, I try to embrace it as muchas possible, but yeah, I
actually work with a performancecoach and we, she helps me with,
you know, that external facingthings.
So little techniques to, youknow, I don't know if you
notice, but whenever I do anevent, I wear my headband.
(30:40):
'Cause that's kind of like myexternal per persona.
And then when I come back intocreative writing, I feel like I
shift gears and I, I've talkedto quite a few writers who are
similar to that.
You kind of have to put a lot ofenergy and even though it's fun
getting out and talking aboutyour book, for us writers, most
writers, I think we enjoy ourlittle caves and coming back and
(31:02):
exploring and having that timeto go into our own little
worlds.
Um, and that's.
What I'm, where I'm at now istrying to balance the two, so
figure out the right portion ofmy weekly schedule that I can
dedicate to the external stuff,the publicity and the promotion,
and how much time I need tounwind, and then how much time I
(31:24):
can actually write.
I'm not one of those writers whocan, um, well, for now I might
change, but just right on thego, like in the, when they're
dropping the kids off at schoolor I need.
Like my office and focus, Idon't even write very well on a
cafe or anything.
So I'm a bit of, I'm a bitboring like that.
No, I, I'm.
Natasha Rai (31:43):
I'm, yeah.
I don't, I can probably write inpublic places, but I can't do
those quick things that peoplecan do and say, I need some
yeah.
Blocks of time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so it sounds like yourperformance coach gave you some
good tips around transitions,right?
So you have this public facingthing, and then you can come out
of that and go into yourcreative.
Angie Faye Martin (32:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
She's been amazing.
Big shout out to Helen.
I'm not gonna give you her lastname because then you'll
inundate her and she's mine.
Natasha Rai (32:15):
So, I mean, you don't have to also give away
anything she did for you forfree, but I'm just curious if
there was one or two things thatyou found the most helpful in
terms of how you can helpyourself when you're doing your
promotions or events.
Angie Faye Martin (32:30):
Um, it's probably a little bit.
Underrated or obvious, butbreathing techniques is one of
them.
Like just slow breathing,breathing beforehand.
Um, also I do just basic CBTstuff.
So I've got these little sheetswhere I will write down all of
my negative thinking and then inone, in one column, and then all
(32:53):
of my positive thoughts in theother.
So a few days before I dosomething that I'm scared about,
I will just write.
You know, like what, why am Iscared?
You know, because I'm going to,I don't know, say something
stupid, for example.
Like just anything that comesinto my mind like, or I don't
know.
I'm gonna be late.
(33:13):
I'm gonna completely stuff itup.
I'm gonna forget to turn on mymicrophone, which I actually did
in Sydney, and it's not thatbad.
So you write down all of thethings that are contributing to
the anxiety and this is classicCBT, right?
And then in the positive column,like you do the counter belief
to, to that thought.
So I forget to turn on mymicrophone.
(33:34):
And then the positive thing is,okay, big deal recorded again
later, which is what's gonnahappen with, um, one of the
things I was on.
Oh, that's a really good, that'sa really good technique.
I like that.
And I, yeah, it's very simpleand it's, yeah.
Yeah.
And it's whatever works for youas well.
Yeah, exactly.
Natasha Rai (33:52):
Exactly.
So what does your writingpractice look like now?
Three months since the book'sbeen out?
Do you have time or are youstill really absorbed in
Melaleuca?
Angie Faye Martin (34:02):
I'm slowly getting back into it.
So I try to write in themorning.
I feel like I'm at my best inthe morning after I've just had
my coffee.
Um, I have my own freelanceediting business as well, so I
do that in the afternoon.
In the morning I feel a bit morecreative.
My mind's a bit moreexplorative, so I get up, I
write, if I get stuck, I just doa little walk around the block
(34:25):
or you know, just a 10 minutewalk, even just literal walk
around the block and.
I'm probably averaging two orthree hours a day writing.
Um, that's great.
And, and then in the afternoon,maybe three or four hours on my,
on my business, I would like toin increase that a little bit
(34:48):
over time, but.
Yeah, Melaleuca the, um, eventsfor that are still almost on a
weekly basis and that obviouslyrequires a bit of preparation as
well.
Natasha Rai (34:58):
Mm-hmm, exactly.
Um, and so are you, when youwrite, are you kind of sitting
down for whatever it is andwriting whatever is coming to
mind?
Or do, are you working onsomething specific or do you
have a goal for yourself?
Angie Faye Martin (35:11):
I'm a real planner.
I'm painfully boring planner.
So I've finished the draft of mynext novel and I'm going through
that now.
Natasha Rai (35:20):
Congratulations.
That's huge.
Angie Faye Martin (35:21):
Thank you.
Yeah, it's uh, a sequel.
So I've stayed in the characterof Renee Taylor, an entirely new
crime.
Um.
Yeah, so I've obviously, Iplanned all that out.
I'm at the stage now of, well,I've got a, a rough draft.
I still need to go back.
And it's also a dual timelineand I feel like the present day
(35:43):
timeline has got a lot moresubstance to it than the 1920s
timeline.
So I'm trying to breathe lifeinto that.
Um, when I say breathe life intowhat it's like, I've got the
skeleton right of the story.
Mm.
Sometimes plotting is kind of, Ifeel like the plotting for this
one was actually the easy part.
Now I need to go in and reallyfill out the scenes and you
(36:07):
wanna be in a hurry.
You wanna like do it quickly,but you can tell when someone's
doing it quickly.
So you just have to sit.
And I imagine the scene, Iimagine the smells and the, you
know, you really take yourselfback there.
When I was writing Melaleuca,actually what I would do is.
I would imagine the scene thenight before, before I would go
to sleep and uh, that would saveme a lot of time because I would
(36:30):
then, when I'd sit down at mydesk the next day, I had already
been in the scene the nightbefore.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And just like the colours andwhat are people wearing and what
are they saying?
And because that part of thewriting is what, it's not
necessarily hard, it just takestime and discipline.
So letting your mind be in thatscene and imagining everything
(36:55):
that's going on, what justhappened five seconds before,
what's going to happen later inthe day, you know?
Oh, for sure.
You can't rush those things.
Natasha Rai (37:03):
You can't rush those things.
No, you can't.
And yeah.
Yeah.
I really like that.
I really like that.
Um, so what's different for you,um, in terms of coming into the
second manuscript?
Um, from writing Melaleuca?
Angie Faye Martin (37:16):
It's been lovely in that it hasn't taken
me as long.
'cause I know some of the basicsnow.
Um, I feel like it was, yeah, itwas much quicker to write.
I'm really looking forward tostarting another one actually,
like now that I feel like I.
I've got some of the craftprinciples, I've honed them.
(37:37):
I know kind of how it works.
Um, I may do like, try pantsing,you know, like,'cause I'm such a
plotter and planner.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I wouldn mind just doing a fewshort stories.
Just pantsing it.
Mm-hmm.
Not necessarily if the novelthat seems daunting, like I
probably waste 30 years of mylife if I try to the novel.
But I like the idea of justplaying around with short
stories.
(37:58):
Next, I also imagine creative.
Natasha Rai (38:00):
I also imagine that pantsing.
Something that needs kind of,you have to plot out or think
about your twists and turns andyour red herrings and all of
those things that go into acrime or a thriller or that kind
of, you know, edge of your seatstuff that I don't, I feel like
if I, because I'm a pantser alittle bit, but if I tried write
(38:21):
like that type of story or thattype of plot, I would just get
lost immediately.
Because half the time I'mwriting stuff, I'm not really
sure where it's going.
Like I have an end point, but Idunno how I'm gonna get there.
I just let it go.
Angie Faye Martin (38:35):
So, oh, I envy people like that.
And I think, I also think thewriting can be a little bit more
beautiful, like, oh, I dunno,but maybe, maybe I'll get there.
Maybe I'll get there eventually.
But now I feel like it's a bitmore of a practice for me, like
to map it all.
I kind of.
Get a bit of satisfaction outof, it's like a puzzle that I'm
putting together.
Natasha Rai (38:55):
Well, exactly.
And see, I envy that bit becausewhen I hear, when I hear writers
talk about this puzzle puttingtogether, I'm like, I want a
puzzle to put together that'sjust all like flowing your
chaos.
Angie Faye Martin (39:08):
Enjoy your beautiful chaos.
Natasha Rai (39:11):
So what's your plan in terms of what you'd like to
do with this manuscript?
Do you have an agent now?
Are you.
Interested in, or how does thatwork for you?
Angie Faye Martin (39:19):
I don't have an agent.
I'm thinking about it.
Um, so I've con I was contractedby HQ for the two books, so
they've Okay.
Got, um, maybe an agent for thethird book, um, given that, you
know, the ins and outs of allthe public.
(39:40):
Contractual stuff is not reallymy strong point.
Um, I talked to a few peopleabout pros and cons of having an
agent and you know, obviouslycon is you gotta, you gotta
share your profit, but the prosseem quite appealing as in they
help you navigate, you know,this terrain of publicity and
(40:01):
promotion and it might beworthwhile, you know, doing
that.
I think in the end, just so Ican optimize my time a little
bit more.
Natasha Rai (40:10):
Yeah.
And the advice that they have,the industry knowledge, like
they get to see so many thingsthat we don't have any insight
into, like all the other dealsand stuff.
Yeah.
Angie Faye Martin (40:19):
Yeah.
I'm not interested in that, tobe honest, to navigate it
myself.
Like I, I basically do mywriting and then show up and,
you know, talk when I have to.
But the rest of, and I doInstagram obviously, but I feel
pretty clumsy in all the rest ofit.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm like, maybe I do need anagent in Yeah.
In the long run.
Natasha Rai (40:39):
So in terms of this book then, if you've got like a,
a Harper Collins interested inyour second, um, novel, does
that mean you're on a deadline?
Angie Faye Martin (40:47):
Yeah, I've got until the October.
Natasha Rai (40:50):
Oh, wow.
That's close.
Angie Faye Martin (40:54):
Yeah.
No.
Um, but I've been working on itfor a while, so.
Yeah, about a year beforeMelaleuca even came out, I was
working.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (41:03):
And does that also mean, and if you don't, if you
can't say that's fine, but doesthat also mean there's a release
date in mind for the second?
Angie Faye Martin (41:10):
Oh no.
Okay.
So yeah, could be next year, butI doubt it.
It's probably gonna be 2027, butI don't know.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm not too fussed to behonest.
Uh, just once I hand it over.
Like to make sure it's in asgood equality as possible.
I'm a bit overwhelmed ordaunting sometimes.
People tell me that they readMelaleuca in two days or in a
(41:32):
single sitting.
I'm like, oh, go back and readit again.
I'm not doing it.
And the next one can come andhelp for another year.
You know, people start ask mewhen I do go around to the do
these speaking events, like, oh,how's the second one going?
We wanna know more about Renee.
I'm like, oh Christ.
Natasha Rai (41:51):
Yeah.
And that also shows the love,right?
Angie Faye Martin (41:54):
Yeah, I'm not gonna, there's, yeah, I don't
wanna rush it though.
I mean, good things take time.
Exactly.
I'm a slow writer.
I'm pretty slow.
Natasha Rai (42:03):
So, um, so in terms of like, we always like to, if
possible, invite our guests togive a little tip or tips to, or
top tip to our emerging writerswho might be listening.
Mm-hmm.
Do you have one in terms of whatyou've, I don't know.
Anything that you've gatheredalong the way?
Angie Faye Martin (42:20):
I mean patience, probably a lot of
patience I think also maybe be abit targeted.
So there seems to be actuallyquite a lot of opportunities out
there.
But do your research, um, seewho the people are behind
various prizes and mentors.
I do recommend that route aswell.
(42:43):
Uh, a lot of the big publishinghouses now have these kind of
programs or opportunities whereyou can go in, you win a prize,
and, but research who, who arethe people behind it, which
mentor would you get?
And, um, doesn't have to bematching genre.
A similar style, like do youthink you could work with them
(43:03):
and open up about yourvulnerabilities as well?
Like, do you think you couldshare what your, you know, what
your, what you think yourweaknesses are in writing?
Because that's how you're gonnaimprove?
Um, yeah, so research, um, don'tgive up.
Be patient.
Uh, enjoy it.
Don't lose the joy for it.
(43:24):
Like, I'm lucky that my husbandconstantly reminds me of, you
know.
Enjoying the craft becausesometimes I get frustrated and
it's not good enough and, youknow, it becomes a job and it
literally is kind of my job now,but it's not gonna be good
writing if you're not enjoyingit.
People can tell, like if you areslaving away at your computer
(43:45):
all day and you're hating it,you writing's probably gonna be
come out like that as well.
So, and that's, that's not easy,but I think that's.
Um, looking after your ownwellbeing, like as in doing what
you love and having a balancedlife, you know?
Mm-hmm.
You looking after your healthand walks and whatever and you
know, catching up with friends.
(44:06):
Like you can't write if you knowwell, if you're not in a good
place yourself, I think.
Natasha Rai (44:12):
Yeah.
Beautiful.
I love that.
And I have a final question,even though you've already given
me so many good tips.
What have you learned about howto write such layered stories?
Angie Faye Martin (44:23):
That it takes time and a meditative type of
practice.
It's not easy.
I think I enjoyed the puzzle.
I enjoyed, I became a bitobsessed with it.
I remember walking around theblock and just, it was like an
obsession to try and make it allfit together.
Um.
(44:45):
All these plot strings and youpull out one loose thread and
then the whole thing falls andyou've gotta put it back
together again.
But part of me enjoyed it aswell.
Mm.
So don't beat yourself up, eventhough there definitely were
times when I beat myself up.
Try not to.
Um, but yeah, the layers and thelayers of the characters, that
(45:06):
just takes time, time and, andlove of, of the work.
The layers in terms of the dualtimelines.
That just takes a lot ofconcentration and time.
Natasha Rai (45:18):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And you know, being so immersedas you were, do you remember if
you took breaks when it all gottoo much, or if you needed to
just to take a bit of distanceand look at it from a different
perspective, that's soimportant.
Angie Faye Martin (45:32):
Like absolutely.
I would take small, like microbreaks during the day, as in
just a walk around the block.
And then I'd also have, um,goals where I would finish the
draft or the chapter or whateverthe timeline that I was working
on by Friday.
And then I would promise myself,I'm not gonna look at it for the
(45:53):
next week.
Like, I'm gonna make myself havea whole week off and just read
or work on something else.
Um, just to give your mind a bitof a break.
I also needed my friends andfamily and my husband to tell me
that as well about Angie, giveit a break.
You know, you get a bit of,because you can't, sometimes you
just, there's an art to it,right?
(46:14):
There's an art to, as much of itis a craft writing.
There's also an art that youneed sometimes the ideas to come
to you.
So I've actually been stuck insomething on sandal with the
sequel and in, when I was inSydney, I remember just lying
back on my bed at the hotel andjust got.
Kind of going into a bit of ameditation, I suppose.
(46:35):
Just there was, there's one partthat I haven't been able to, um,
to pull together and it justcame to me and I was like,
that's the beauty of writing.
Like, yeah, they just, thiselement kind of came to me.
Natasha Rai (46:50):
Oh, I love that.
Well.
Um, sadly we're out time.
I could easily talk a couple ofhours know.
Um, thank you so much for beingmy guest on the book deal, um,
Angie, and um, yeah, I loveMelaleuca and I hope that it
finds all the readers itdeserves'cause it's, it's a
(47:11):
really special book and I lovedit.
Angie Faye Martin (47:13):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me on yourshow.
I have really enjoyed this chat.
Natasha Rai (47:18):
My pleasure.
Thank you.
I had a wonderful chat withAngie and reflecting on our
conversation.
What got me thinking was aroundthe stories we tell and how we
tell them.
So the intention that I'msetting for the following few
weeks or the next month.
(47:39):
This as follows.
So if you have a look at yourmanuscript, regardless of what
genre you're writing in, have alook at the risks that you take
with your storytelling.
Are there layers that you areadding to your characters or to
your plot?
Like are there multiple motifsor themes that you're trying to
explore in your writing?
(47:59):
And if you are not and you wantto tell a story, that's pretty
straightforward.
Have a look at what you arerisking.
Publishers these days are veryinterested in looking at people
playing with form and the typeof risks we might take when we
are writing in a genre that hasa lot of publications in it, for
example, crime.
So that is an invitation and theintention for you to go and have
(48:22):
a look and see where you canmaybe take a few risks.
And of course, one of the Beaumost beautiful things that Angie
and I talked about was the timeto really immerse yourself and
imagine so.
If you can take some time todaydream your way into thinking
about risk taking, storytellingand layering.
(48:43):
That is my invitation to you andthat is the intention.
Thank you to Di Taylor andLindsay Bartels, our newest
Patreon subscribers.
Welcome to the Book Deal podcastcommunity and thank you so much
for your support.
Tina Strachan (49:06):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
podcast.
We're able to bring you theseweekly writerly chats because of
our amazing patrons.
Join the TBD family by becominga member of our Patreon
community@patreon.com, the bookdeal podcast.
And if you love the pod, pleasegive us a rating or review.
And don't forget to follow us onInstagram and Facebook.
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will
discover the inspiring storiesbehind your favorite books.
We interview seasoned and debutauthors, as well as publishing
industry professionals to bringyou the best tips and advice on
how to get that elusive bookdeal.
So no matter what stage ofwriting you're at, we've got you
covered.
(00:29):
I'm Tina Strachan.
I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And I'm Natasha Rai.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one
deal at a time.
The Book Deal podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners, the land and waters,which it's recorded on.
And pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging.
Natasha Rai (00:56):
Angie Faye Martin is a writer and editor of Kooma,
Kamilaroi and European Heritagewith a Bachelor of Public Health
from the Queensland Universityof Technology and a master's of
Anthropology from the AustralianNational University.
Angie has spent many yearsworking in policy roles in state
and federal government beforelaunching Versed Writings in
(01:19):
2019.
Her work has been published inMeanjin, Garland, The Saltbush
Review and The Rocks Remain.
She is a member of the FirstNations Australia Writers
Network and accredited with theInstitute of Professional
Editors.
(01:39):
Good morning, Angie.
Faye Martin.
Welcome to the book Dearpodcast.
Angie Faye Martin (01:44):
Thank you so much for having me, Natasha.
I'm delighted to be here.
Natasha Rai (01:47):
It's great to have you.
So, um, we're here to talk alittle bit about your debut
novel Melaleuca, as well as yourpublishing journey.
Um, so is it okay if we startwith you giving us a bit of an
elevator pitch from Melaleuca?
Angie Faye Martin (02:03):
Yeah, sure thing.
Melaleuca is about, uh,detective Renee Taylor, who is
working down in Brisbane.
She's got an amazing career.
Uh, she's worked hard to getwhere she is.
Um, she's quite determined,quite fierce.
She's aboriginal and she'sstruggled against certain
(02:23):
things, um, in her life to getwhere she is.
And then she gets a call fromher mom, and her mom is.
Uh, suffering from debilitatingarthritis in her hands.
And they're struggling.
She's struggling to get by.
Um, and they, her mom lives inthe country town where, um,
(02:45):
Renee grew up.
It was just the two of them.
And, uh, her mom can't find acarer, and so she asked Renee to
come home and.
And help take care of thingsaround the home.
Renee being the dutiful daughterthat she is reluctantly agrees
and arranges a secondment withwork.
(03:06):
So she's um, kind of demoted, Isuppose, from a detective back
to being a comfortable, and shegoes back to Garga, the little
country town where she grew up.
Um, it opens on day two andRenee's.
Kind of bored, a bit frustrated.
She's helped her mom all weekendaround the house and she gets to
(03:30):
the office early and then shegets a call from a resident.
A resident has been down walkingby the creek and has found the
body of a woman.
And Renee, um, fires intoaction, goes down.
Um, and Renee, uh, nobody knowswho this young aboriginal woman
is.
(03:50):
Renee's assigned to theinvestigation and, um.
Ask around town who, who knowsher.
Um, no one has reported hermissing.
And so it becomes quite aperplexing case.
Renee is assigned to it.
And then as she digs deeper intowhat may have happened to this,
(04:11):
um, young woman, she discovers alink to the past.
And so Melaleuca is based ondual timelines set in.
The year 2000 and then 1965where, um, two women went
missing.
And yeah, obviously the casesare linked.
(04:32):
So that's Melaleuca in anutshell.
Natasha Rai (04:35):
Thank you.
So having read it, um, Iabsolutely loved it and I found
myself.
Flying through it, um, becauseit was so gripping and, um, I
don't read a lot of crime onfiction and this just grabbed me
and what really struck me wasthere are so many different
(04:57):
elements and I'm gonna be verycareful'cause I don't wanna give
anything away'cause there are afew twists and turns in it.
Um, but I was just curious abouthow they all kind of came
together for you in the writing.
I guess the first thing I wantto ask about is, this is a story
about Aboriginal women and, andI know in your author's note
(05:19):
you've talked about, you know,violence against aboriginal
women and violence in indigenouscommunities sometimes and how
it's portrayed.
What was your starting point?
Was that, was that your startingpoint or did you, did that come
into the mix as you startedwriting?
Angie Faye Martin (05:35):
Yeah, great question.
So maybe I'll go back a littlebit.
So.
Starting point.
Very good question.
I actually started writingMelaleuca about 10 years ago.
A lot was happening for me.
Um, and I mean, quite a fewreaders say there is a lot going
on in it, and that's probablywhere I was at in life 10 years
(05:56):
ago.
I was in my early thirties.
I was living in Melbourne, um,and.
I was working for the publicservice and I had followed, you
know, my parents' directions andgot a sensible job, and I was
enjoying it to a certain degree.
I'd studied public health andthen I did my master's in
anthropology and developmentstudies.
(06:17):
I really wanted to serve thecommunity and I, um, I love the
intellectual side of things aswell, writing briefs and
analyzing policy, but I foundthat it wasn't enough for me.
I felt like there was justsomething bursting inside me.
And I remember going for longwalks with my husband and
probably driving him crazy.
Just, um, a bit of a chatter boxand thinking through all these
(06:39):
things.
Um, I was also reading crime atthe time.
I was reading a few crimethrillers.
And struggling to process a lotof my thoughts.
And I thought as I was walkingaround Carnegie Dunn in
Melbourne, I was picking offMelaleuca bark, paper bark and
starting to think aboutpersonalities and complexity and
(07:01):
the layers of things.
And I think I just said to myhusband, maybe I could put all
of this in a, in a crime story.
That would be so awesome.
Um, like maybe that could be mycanvas just to explore.
Um, the complexities around someof those themes that you talked
about being.
Um, political determination andsovereignty and, um, violence
(07:27):
against Aboriginal women.
And there's a bit of addictionin here as well, like helping
family members through addictionand mental health struggles.
I mean, in my early thirties, Ifelt like I had a lot weighing
on me and when the idea of, youknow, the paper bark in
Melaleuca came to me, I thought,yeah, I'm gonna do that.
And I went home and, um, startedjotting down ideas and feeling.
(07:50):
Just an amazing sense of reliefcome over me.
I actually was a smoker backthen, and I remember feeling
like for the first time in ages,I don't feel like I need to have
a cigarette.
Like this is just giving me so,such a wonderful sense of
relief.
And then I got obsessed with theplot.
And the plot is a little bitinspired by, I've talked about
this previously.
(08:10):
This is probably the, like if Ihad to pinpoint.
An inspiration.
It is, um, the abandonment ofthat my father felt when he
reached out to his biological,um, grandfather.
And I didn't realize that thatwas something that had stayed
with me.
Um, I found out when, when I wasabout eight years old, I watched
(08:33):
my dad be rejected by his.
Biological grandfather when hereached out to him, um, in a
moment of, you know, bit ofloneliness, I think he reached
out to his biologicalgrandfather who was a wealthy
white man down in, in Brisbane.
And to see him get rejected madean impression on me at the age
(08:53):
of eight.
And I wondered why did that, youknow, man, not wanna know our
family.
Why did he not wanna help dadout?
And I guess as I went throughlife, you know, this idea of.
Uh, men abandoning theirchildren or just having children
that they don't want to, to, um,acknowledge, um, stayed with me.
(09:15):
So that kind of was the, thecentral kind of element to the
plot.
And then I went from there justgrabbing all the themes that I
was wrestling with in lifeidentity, especially, uh, which
shows up a lot in Renee'sstruggles just as a character.
Natasha Rai (09:31):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that struck me.
Um, and you know, my other jobin addition to being a writer is
a counsellor.
So I work a lot with peopleexperiencing grief, and that was
something that came through inMelaleuca as well.
Mm-hmm.
The kind of the imprints that weget through our families.
Um, and it just struck me justnow when you were talking about
(09:52):
your dad, um, that imprint of,you know, being pushed aside or
unacknowledged.
And that's something that I, itfeels to me personally as that
we hold as a country thisunacknowledged violence that was
perpetrated on indigenous andaboriginal peoples.
Like there is that kind of echoin this, in these women's lives.
Angie Faye Martin (10:14):
Yeah, absolutely.
I think, you know, we often.
We're starting to refer to itmore as intergenerational
trauma.
Um, but I think some people inthe aboriginal community don't
relate so much to those words.
I think it is a profound senseof grief and also just a bit of
a.
Uh, overwhelming confusion.
It's like, why are thesefeelings coming up for me?
(10:36):
But it's interesting that youmentioned grief as well,
because, um, I don't think I'vetalked about this before, but I
did start writing Melaleucaaround the time that my
grandmother passed away andthat, um, it was quite sudden
she lived a very rich andfulfilling life, but she did
pass away suddenly from a heartattack and, um.
The character of Josh isactually based a little bit on
(10:56):
that and Josh loses his mom.
This isn't a spoiler.
That happens quite early.
Um, in, in the story and I wasalso wrestling with, um, you'll
see in Josh's character, he.
Feels like he's not processingthe grief of his, his mother.
And at the time I felt like Icouldn't fully process the grief
(11:20):
of losing my grandmother becauseI was wrestling with all of
these other things going on.
And I felt even a little bit ofguilt about that in the early
drafts.
Josh was a much biggercharacter.
Um, but slowly as I delved moreinto Renee, Renee became more
central.
But I had many more chapters onJosh in the first few drafts.
Natasha Rai (11:40):
Yeah, and definitely, yeah.
And also there's the, this echoof grief.
Um, and I'm gonna choose mywords carefully so I don't give
anything away, but in the past,in the 1965 timeline, what
really, uh, what really spoke tome and touched me was the deep
sense of love in, in thosefamilies.
Even, even when we're describingone of the girls, is a bit wild.
(12:02):
It, it just spoke to me ofyouthful exuberance and, and,
and wanting to have fun.
Wanting to experience this lifethat's feels small and, and the
way we judge that, especiallyputting on this lens of
indigenous kind of populationor, I don't know, there's
(12:23):
something around you have to bea certain way, but there was
just so much love in thesefamilies and so much acceptance
that just really spoke to me.
Angie Faye Martin (12:32):
That was really important for me.
Um, when I was draftingMelaleuca often we're hit with
just overwhelming poverty pornand you know, uh, when you read
some accounts of Aboriginalhistory, it is violent, it is
awful, and there is a place forthat.
But when I grew up, there wasalways an effort amongst my
(12:54):
Aboriginal family to.
Have fun joke around.
Some of our humor can be prettydark, but I guess that's just
the way we deal with thingscoming together and yawning and,
um, growing up you are awarethat people see Aboriginal
people as being full of despairand at times we definitely are.
(13:15):
'cause of what we'veexperienced.
But we do also have a, you know,fun times, a lot of good times
and, um.
When, so the 1960s timeline,which is really where you see
the community coming together,that's based on my dad's
experience of growing up on theYuba, which is a fringe camp in
(13:35):
was a fringe camp back then.
Um, and.
When I hear stories based ondad's childhood experience
growing up on the fringe camp,they are full of poverty and
hunger, but heaps of games,childhood games playing by the
creek and Yabby.
And I wanted to shine a lightjust on the humanity that
(13:56):
existed in those communities,how much they loved each other
and cared for each otherfiercely.
You know, and that's how we'veremained, uh, resilient.
Um, people.
That's how we're still heretoday.
We just fiercely care for eachother.
Natasha Rai (14:08):
Hmm.
And that came through sostrongly for me, but, you know,
I'm, it's such an interest, likeall these beautiful layers that
you've, that you've written intoyour novel and I'm, and, and
crime is the vehicle that you'veused to kind of highlight all of
that, was it more than kind of,you said you earlier that you
were reading a lot of crime atthe time.
(14:29):
How, how did that vehicle comeabout?
Angie Faye Martin (14:31):
Like is it because you're, honestly, I
didn't crime reader or, uh,look, I was reading a lot of
crime at the time, but I don'tthink I read everything right.
It was just, that was what I wasreading.
I was reading Gillian Flynn andI liked the suspenseful kind of
page turning genre, and I wantedto write a story that I enjoyed
reading, but I don't think I setout too deliberately to write
(14:54):
crime.
I feel like.
It became a crime novel, um,because of, you know, I had a
detective, I had a crime, and itbecame a vehicle for me to
explore these issues.
And over time I did play intothat genre.
'cause I realized it workedbetter.
Um, it was what readersexpected, and I used those
(15:15):
conventional kind of cliffs.
What, no, what do you call it,cliff hangers and hooks that I
was reading about in my craftbooks.
Mm-hmm.
But I do feel like Melaleuca isnot strictly in the crime genre.
I think it could be generalfiction or historical fiction.
You know, it's, and, and allbooks are, you know, like all
books kind of, um, overlap intoother genres that that's true.
Natasha Rai (15:39):
And at the same time, you've managed something
quite extraordinary with yoursin that there are all these
flesh tight characters and Ireally like the pacing of the
story in the two thousands.
Like it's only set over a fewdays once the investigation gets
going.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And I, it felt both fast andalso, um, really this lovely
unfolding of the links orpotential connection between the
(16:03):
past.
And I was just, I was full ofadmiration of how you navigated
that and how you wrote that sobeautifully.
Angie Faye Martin (16:11):
I think I have to thank my mentor a little
bit.
Um, I often found those slowbits actually really easy and
enjoyable to write.
So a lot of the slow bits Ithink are to do with Renee and
her mom, just domestic sceneswhere they're just talking, you
know, nonsense in the house andor Renee collecting eggs out the
back.
(16:31):
My mentor said, no, this isreally good.
Like, I'm enjoying these things.
I'm like, I feel like I'm justplaying around.
Like I don't feel like this isserious writing.
Um, but she encouraged me tokeep pursuing it.
And so I did.
And then over time when I readit back to myself, I realized
that there was a nice flowhappening between the, the
(16:52):
intensity of the investigation,um, and also some of the heavier
themes where.
Quite confronting things happenand then you just, uh, return to
this domestic, not tranquility,but like playfulness.
And I thought for the reader itwas a nice ebb and flow.
(17:12):
Um, definitely.
And it was also just fun.
I just liked writing.
You know, Renee and how she getsalong with her colleagues at the
station.
And I think it's also howcountry folk just banter a
little bit.
You know, you just, that's howyou get by and like you just
talk a bit of nonsense, talk abit of crap, and, you know, pass
the time.
And I wanted to bring that outand yeah, in the story as well.
Natasha Rai (17:34):
So you've mentioned a mentor, so let's, um, go into
your publishing journey.
So 10 years ago you had thisidea.
And you started writingsomething, was that your first
foray into creative writing?
Angie Faye Martin (17:47):
It was for a long time.
Like I used to muck around whenI was a kid and stuff.
Um, and then I kept reading, um,always reading a lot, but I was
just doing academic writing.
And then, so this burst of anidea came through, uh, it was
called the Paper Bark Trees atfirst, 10 years ago.
And then.
I kept going with it just on theside.
(18:08):
I was quite obsessed with it,but I didn't have much time
'cause I was working full time.
And so I just read craft books,play around with a few
paragraphs, share it with a fewclose friends.
Um, my husband and they, theytold me later they were relieved
that they could tell me it wasokay and it wasn't complete
crap.
Um, because they would've toldme if it was crap too.
(18:29):
They're, they're good friends.
I trust them.
And so they get, like, theysaid, yeah, go on, keep going
with this, you know.
And I did.
And then I, um, looked at a fewcompetitions.
'cause I thought, I can't reallydo this just by myself.
It would be cool if I could winone of these competitions where
you get a mentor for a littlebit.
(18:49):
Mm-hmm.
Um, so I looked into those.
I did, um, I did get rejectedfrom a few, but they, they were
great, um, competitions in thatthey still gave me a
recommendation for how I couldimprove it.
Natasha Rai (19:04):
Okay, so it's a short letter, and I know it's a
while ago now, but do youremember what they were and if
you had to submit the fullmanuscript or did you, was it
excerpts?
Angie Faye Martin (19:15):
Um, so I think it was just excerpts.
I think I submitted two.
Two, yeah.
But I don't wanna say which onesthat were, they were Australian.
Natasha Rai (19:26):
Okay.
Okay.
But were they specifically kindof crime related or just general
adult?
Angie Faye Martin (19:32):
Just general adult fiction.
Okay.
But I remember I got like a twopage summary report with a
little bit of a prompt where Icould take it.
And so it was still helpful.
It was excellent.
It was like a disappointing, Iwas heartbroken at the time, but
then I was like, no, I'll keepgoing with it.
And then, um, I got my longservice, leave three months and.
(19:54):
Was excited'cause I could devotea lot more time to it.
And then I found the HarperCollins First Nations commercial
fiction fellowship, whichrequired a 70,000 word draft.
So I set my goals on that waslike, I'm gonna, you know, get
this story into shape, get it to70,000 words.
That was back in 2019 and I wassuccessful in that competition.
(20:17):
And as part of the award, I wasassigned a mentor for 12 months.
And just as I was assigned that,um, I went over to Adelaide and
met my mentor Amy Matthews overthere at Adelaide Writer's Week.
And then, um, the COVID lockdownstarted so lucky I got in that
quick trip over there, I couldmeet her in person and then came
(20:39):
home and was able to work.
Under her kind of tutelage for12 months.
It was, I was also closelyconnected to the publisher at
Harper Collins, Joe Mackay, whoI've continued to work with now.
Um, and so that process wasincredible.
Mm-hmm.
Natasha Rai (20:57):
And can I just ask something about that?
So with your mentorship, wereyou working on different
elements like structure, um,characterization, like those
kind of broad strokes to get itinto a tighter form?
Angie Faye Martin (21:09):
Everything.
Yeah.
So she would do like a full um,read through.
And then provide me with like abit of a manuscript assessment
of how I could improve itoverall.
She also did point out what Iwas doing well, which I found,
you know, encouraging.
So she was always like, yeah,your dialogue is great.
Oh, thanks.
Never even really studied that.
That was just something thatcame naturally.
(21:31):
Point of view I struggled with,and so I had to do a few extra
courses on point of view.
Um, I was head hopping, sogetting in too many characters
heads and so that was theweakness for me.
Um.
Pacing was something that I wasokay at, but I really needed to
improve given the crime genre.
(21:52):
So I read lots of suspense craftbooks and um, hooks and
cliffhangers and, you know,entered the scene late and leave
early, that kind of thing.
Um.
But Amy really met me where Iwas at in my journey, because I
already had pretty decent vocaband everything.
I've, you know, had a master'sin academic writing, but there
was some real basics, like pointof view that I just didn't get
(22:15):
at all.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so it was yeah, tailored towhat I needed.
So Amy, um, read a few drafts,gave me feedback on how I could
improve it, and then after thatyear, I was, um, brought over to
Joe Joe mackay at Harper Collinsand given more in depth kind of
manuscript, um, manuscriptassessments From there.
(22:39):
Finally got the contract in,sorry, go on.
Natasha Rai (22:41):
I was just gonna say this would've been what,
2021, right?
Angie Faye Martin (22:44):
2021.
Yep.
Kept, kept working at it.
Um.
I got the contract and that was2023 I think.
What are we up to now?
2025.
Yeah, 2023.
And then it was pretty much, itwas all done for a long time, to
be honest.
Like, and then it's a matter of,um, choosing the right
(23:07):
publishing window.
So the publishers put a lot ofthought into when to release the
book.
Um.
Natasha Rai (23:14):
Yes, I understand that because I had the same, I
signed my contract in 2023 andmine came out 2025, so I know,
yeah, yeah.
That sense of time.
But when you won the uh, prize.
Was the publication like anoption or was it a guaranteed
thing, like you do a year'smentorship and then...
Angie Faye Martin (23:32):
No.
Okay.
It wasn't, and I was naive, likeprobably now in hindsight, I
probably look, would look aroundfor an award.
That guaranteed publication.
No, I basically just hustled.
I kept hustling.
I didn't even really understandthe publishing world.
I just thought, oh yeah, theyseem like, uh, really.
Um, professional people, likeexperts in their field.
(23:55):
I wanted to work with the best.
So I looked up both theirprofiles and I was like, yeah,
these people know what they'redoing.
I didn't really look into theins and outs of whether the
award involved a contract.
Um, I don't regret it, but itdid become a little bit of a
hustle towards the end.
It was like, you know, when do Iget a contract?
When can I put the book out?
That became a little bit hard atthe end.
Natasha Rai (24:15):
So you sounds like you had a lot of confidence in
Melaleuca at by that point tokind of.
Uh, well, yeah, you said hustle,but you know, to be had that
confidence to keep going becauseI know what I was like back
then.
I was terrified of everyone.
I don't know why, but, um, and alot of emerging writers, you
know, they, they get reallynervous about pushing, pushing
(24:37):
themselves forward or asking forthings.
Angie Faye Martin (24:41):
I guess it was probably my pathway into it
because I had, you know, wonthis 2019 fellowship and then it
was like, okay, so what now?
Like I've put in seven years orso at that point of time into
this manuscript.
Natasha Rai (24:56):
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
Does that fellowship stillexist?
Angie Faye Martin (25:02):
No, I think they only ran it once.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (25:04):
Oh, wow.
Okay.
Well, you were right time, rightplace.
Yeah, yeah.
Kasey Whitelaw (25:13):
Hello, listeners.
I'm Kasey Whitelaw.
I'm the author of Flute and mynew picture book, the Great
Shark Egg Case Hunt.
I'm a debut author and a marinebiologist.
I'm so thrilled to tell youabout my new book, the Great
Shark Egged Case Hunt, which isinspired by a real life citizen
science project.
(25:33):
It's illustrated by SylviaMorris and published by CSIRO
Publishing.
Did you know some sharks andtheir close relatives lay eggs
inside the case?
A baby shark grows until it'sready to wriggle its way out.
Leaving the empty egg casebehind empty egg cases can wash
up on beaches all year round.
So join our young citizenscientists as they search for
(25:57):
shark egg cases.
Your journey around the world,stopping off in places like
England.
Australia, South Africa and IcyAlaska.
But remember, look closely someshark eggs are easily
camouflaged.
The great Shark egg case huntbrings science into children's
everyday experiences, turning afun day at the beach into a
(26:17):
citizen science adventure.
It's a story, a field guide, anda fun extension activity all in
one.
So come along, you can be an eggcase hunter too.
The great shark.
A case hunt is available now.
Natasha Rai (26:35):
So how much, um, was the word, how much, uh,
input did you have into thecover?
'cause the cover is stunning.
Kasey Whitelaw (26:43):
Um, so none.
Well, they asked me for a fewideas.
I sent through a few photos, um,and I thought.
It would be like a outbacklandscape, like silos or
something.
But when I saw it, I wasabsolutely blown away.
Uh, I loved it.
I'm sure I could have, you know,asked for changes if they had
given it to me, and I don't likeit.
(27:04):
But I told them from thebeginning, I trust that you're
the experts in, um, cover designand yeah.
So when I saw the beautiful, um,blues and gr blues and greens
was what I secretly wanted, butI didn't pass on that um.
Requirement or anything.
'cause I thought it would bebeautiful if it came back in
Blues and greens and then itdid.
(27:25):
And I thought, oh, this isserendipitous, it's meant to be.
Um, but yeah, Darren Holt, whodid all of Trent Dalton's books,
designed this one for me andit's actually the, um, crows and
Nest, uh, waterfalls, which isjust outside of Toowoomba, and
that's what Crystal Ponds isbased on in Melaleuca.
Natasha Rai (27:46):
Yeah.
Gorgeous.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you signed the contract.
Um, how was that?
That must have been, I dunno, aculmination of everything you've
been working on.
Angie Faye Martin (27:56):
Right.
It was a blur.
I remember being in Spainactually, and.
Because my husband's Spanish andyou know, life is crazy.
Ooh.
I was thinking my mom came overfor a visit and I got this
contract and I rememberthinking, whoa, this just got
serious.
This is awesome.
This is great.
This is what I wanted.
But then also thinking there areso many words in this document
(28:17):
that I do not understand.
Um, so I got a lawyer to look atit.
Mm-hmm.
Um, paid for my own lawyer.
I looked up.
An expert in, um, what do theycall it in the arts, like film
and television, entertainment,law.
And yeah, he looked over it to,for me, I did heap of research
(28:38):
into all of the differentroyalties and everything, um,
and signed it off and sent itaway.
And I think, yeah, it was, itwas a nice experience, but I
still felt like I, there wasquite a bit of work ahead of me.
I felt like it was just thebeginning and it was true.
Something in me was like, thisis just.
You know, the beginning of avery long journey, because next
comes the, uh, the promotionsand the, uh, publicity.
(29:02):
So finding the contract was,that was actually quite nerve
wracking, but finding thecontract, I know people actually
celebrate with champagne andeverything.
For me, it was like, this isserious.
I felt like this is a newjourney beginning.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
Which is exciting.
Exciting but scary.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (29:20):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I get that.
And also, um, you mentionedabout promotions.
So your book, so you signed in2023 and Melaleuca came out in
June.
Yeah.
Beginning of June.
So how has it been?
How was it in the lead up?
What was your experience like?
Angie Faye Martin (29:37):
I mean, I was pretty nervous leading up to the
release of Melaleuca.
Not so much about the quality ofthe book.
'cause I feel like I put enoughwork into it and I read enough
to know, like I don't wanna.
Sound like a big nole, but Ikind of felt like it was a good
book.
It was more the public speakingand the publicity, and I don't
really like that, you know,natural.
(29:59):
I, I'm starting to enjoy it nowthat I've done enough, but I was
so scared and so Ed byeverything, I tried to make it
as enjoyable as possible bydoing the things that I like.
So I bought new lipstick andnew, new heels and new clothes
and just tried to make it funbecause I was like, this is
gonna be a big part of my lifenow.
So.
(30:20):
Um, I try to embrace it as muchas possible, but yeah, I
actually work with a performancecoach and we, she helps me with,
you know, that external facingthings.
So little techniques to, youknow, I don't know if you
notice, but whenever I do anevent, I wear my headband.
(30:40):
'Cause that's kind of like myexternal per persona.
And then when I come back intocreative writing, I feel like I
shift gears and I, I've talkedto quite a few writers who are
similar to that.
You kind of have to put a lot ofenergy and even though it's fun
getting out and talking aboutyour book, for us writers, most
writers, I think we enjoy ourlittle caves and coming back and
(31:02):
exploring and having that timeto go into our own little
worlds.
Um, and that's.
What I'm, where I'm at now istrying to balance the two, so
figure out the right portion ofmy weekly schedule that I can
dedicate to the external stuff,the publicity and the promotion,
and how much time I need tounwind, and then how much time I
(31:24):
can actually write.
I'm not one of those writers whocan, um, well, for now I might
change, but just right on thego, like in the, when they're
dropping the kids off at schoolor I need.
Like my office and focus, Idon't even write very well on a
cafe or anything.
So I'm a bit of, I'm a bitboring like that.
No, I, I'm.
Natasha Rai (31:43):
I'm, yeah.
I don't, I can probably write inpublic places, but I can't do
those quick things that peoplecan do and say, I need some
yeah.
Blocks of time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so it sounds like yourperformance coach gave you some
good tips around transitions,right?
So you have this public facingthing, and then you can come out
of that and go into yourcreative.
Angie Faye Martin (32:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
She's been amazing.
Big shout out to Helen.
I'm not gonna give you her lastname because then you'll
inundate her and she's mine.
Natasha Rai (32:15):
So, I mean, you don't have to also give away
anything she did for you forfree, but I'm just curious if
there was one or two things thatyou found the most helpful in
terms of how you can helpyourself when you're doing your
promotions or events.
Angie Faye Martin (32:30):
Um, it's probably a little bit.
Underrated or obvious, butbreathing techniques is one of
them.
Like just slow breathing,breathing beforehand.
Um, also I do just basic CBTstuff.
So I've got these little sheetswhere I will write down all of
my negative thinking and then inone, in one column, and then all
(32:53):
of my positive thoughts in theother.
So a few days before I dosomething that I'm scared about,
I will just write.
You know, like what, why am Iscared?
You know, because I'm going to,I don't know, say something
stupid, for example.
Like just anything that comesinto my mind like, or I don't
know.
I'm gonna be late.
(33:13):
I'm gonna completely stuff itup.
I'm gonna forget to turn on mymicrophone, which I actually did
in Sydney, and it's not thatbad.
So you write down all of thethings that are contributing to
the anxiety and this is classicCBT, right?
And then in the positive column,like you do the counter belief
to, to that thought.
So I forget to turn on mymicrophone.
(33:34):
And then the positive thing is,okay, big deal recorded again
later, which is what's gonnahappen with, um, one of the
things I was on.
Oh, that's a really good, that'sa really good technique.
I like that.
And I, yeah, it's very simpleand it's, yeah.
Yeah.
And it's whatever works for youas well.
Yeah, exactly.
Natasha Rai (33:52):
Exactly.
So what does your writingpractice look like now?
Three months since the book'sbeen out?
Do you have time or are youstill really absorbed in
Melaleuca?
Angie Faye Martin (34:02):
I'm slowly getting back into it.
So I try to write in themorning.
I feel like I'm at my best inthe morning after I've just had
my coffee.
Um, I have my own freelanceediting business as well, so I
do that in the afternoon.
In the morning I feel a bit morecreative.
My mind's a bit moreexplorative, so I get up, I
write, if I get stuck, I just doa little walk around the block
(34:25):
or you know, just a 10 minutewalk, even just literal walk
around the block and.
I'm probably averaging two orthree hours a day writing.
Um, that's great.
And, and then in the afternoon,maybe three or four hours on my,
on my business, I would like toin increase that a little bit
(34:48):
over time, but.
Yeah, Melaleuca the, um, eventsfor that are still almost on a
weekly basis and that obviouslyrequires a bit of preparation as
well.
Natasha Rai (34:58):
Mm-hmm, exactly.
Um, and so are you, when youwrite, are you kind of sitting
down for whatever it is andwriting whatever is coming to
mind?
Or do, are you working onsomething specific or do you
have a goal for yourself?
Angie Faye Martin (35:11):
I'm a real planner.
I'm painfully boring planner.
So I've finished the draft of mynext novel and I'm going through
that now.
Natasha Rai (35:20):
Congratulations.
That's huge.
Angie Faye Martin (35:21):
Thank you.
Yeah, it's uh, a sequel.
So I've stayed in the characterof Renee Taylor, an entirely new
crime.
Um.
Yeah, so I've obviously, Iplanned all that out.
I'm at the stage now of, well,I've got a, a rough draft.
I still need to go back.
And it's also a dual timelineand I feel like the present day
(35:43):
timeline has got a lot moresubstance to it than the 1920s
timeline.
So I'm trying to breathe lifeinto that.
Um, when I say breathe life intowhat it's like, I've got the
skeleton right of the story.
Mm.
Sometimes plotting is kind of, Ifeel like the plotting for this
one was actually the easy part.
Now I need to go in and reallyfill out the scenes and you
(36:07):
wanna be in a hurry.
You wanna like do it quickly,but you can tell when someone's
doing it quickly.
So you just have to sit.
And I imagine the scene, Iimagine the smells and the, you
know, you really take yourselfback there.
When I was writing Melaleuca,actually what I would do is.
I would imagine the scene thenight before, before I would go
to sleep and uh, that would saveme a lot of time because I would
(36:30):
then, when I'd sit down at mydesk the next day, I had already
been in the scene the nightbefore.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And just like the colours andwhat are people wearing and what
are they saying?
And because that part of thewriting is what, it's not
necessarily hard, it just takestime and discipline.
So letting your mind be in thatscene and imagining everything
(36:55):
that's going on, what justhappened five seconds before,
what's going to happen later inthe day, you know?
Oh, for sure.
You can't rush those things.
Natasha Rai (37:03):
You can't rush those things.
No, you can't.
And yeah.
Yeah.
I really like that.
I really like that.
Um, so what's different for you,um, in terms of coming into the
second manuscript?
Um, from writing Melaleuca?
Angie Faye Martin (37:16):
It's been lovely in that it hasn't taken
me as long.
'cause I know some of the basicsnow.
Um, I feel like it was, yeah, itwas much quicker to write.
I'm really looking forward tostarting another one actually,
like now that I feel like I.
I've got some of the craftprinciples, I've honed them.
(37:37):
I know kind of how it works.
Um, I may do like, try pantsing,you know, like,'cause I'm such a
plotter and planner.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I wouldn mind just doing a fewshort stories.
Just pantsing it.
Mm-hmm.
Not necessarily if the novelthat seems daunting, like I
probably waste 30 years of mylife if I try to the novel.
But I like the idea of justplaying around with short
stories.
(37:58):
Next, I also imagine creative.
Natasha Rai (38:00):
I also imagine that pantsing.
Something that needs kind of,you have to plot out or think
about your twists and turns andyour red herrings and all of
those things that go into acrime or a thriller or that kind
of, you know, edge of your seatstuff that I don't, I feel like
if I, because I'm a pantser alittle bit, but if I tried write
(38:21):
like that type of story or thattype of plot, I would just get
lost immediately.
Because half the time I'mwriting stuff, I'm not really
sure where it's going.
Like I have an end point, but Idunno how I'm gonna get there.
I just let it go.
Angie Faye Martin (38:35):
So, oh, I envy people like that.
And I think, I also think thewriting can be a little bit more
beautiful, like, oh, I dunno,but maybe, maybe I'll get there.
Maybe I'll get there eventually.
But now I feel like it's a bitmore of a practice for me, like
to map it all.
I kind of.
Get a bit of satisfaction outof, it's like a puzzle that I'm
putting together.
Natasha Rai (38:55):
Well, exactly.
And see, I envy that bit becausewhen I hear, when I hear writers
talk about this puzzle puttingtogether, I'm like, I want a
puzzle to put together that'sjust all like flowing your
chaos.
Angie Faye Martin (39:08):
Enjoy your beautiful chaos.
Natasha Rai (39:11):
So what's your plan in terms of what you'd like to
do with this manuscript?
Do you have an agent now?
Are you.
Interested in, or how does thatwork for you?
Angie Faye Martin (39:19):
I don't have an agent.
I'm thinking about it.
Um, so I've con I was contractedby HQ for the two books, so
they've Okay.
Got, um, maybe an agent for thethird book, um, given that, you
know, the ins and outs of allthe public.
(39:40):
Contractual stuff is not reallymy strong point.
Um, I talked to a few peopleabout pros and cons of having an
agent and you know, obviouslycon is you gotta, you gotta
share your profit, but the prosseem quite appealing as in they
help you navigate, you know,this terrain of publicity and
(40:01):
promotion and it might beworthwhile, you know, doing
that.
I think in the end, just so Ican optimize my time a little
bit more.
Natasha Rai (40:10):
Yeah.
And the advice that they have,the industry knowledge, like
they get to see so many thingsthat we don't have any insight
into, like all the other dealsand stuff.
Yeah.
Angie Faye Martin (40:19):
Yeah.
I'm not interested in that, tobe honest, to navigate it
myself.
Like I, I basically do mywriting and then show up and,
you know, talk when I have to.
But the rest of, and I doInstagram obviously, but I feel
pretty clumsy in all the rest ofit.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm like, maybe I do need anagent in Yeah.
In the long run.
Natasha Rai (40:39):
So in terms of this book then, if you've got like a,
a Harper Collins interested inyour second, um, novel, does
that mean you're on a deadline?
Angie Faye Martin (40:47):
Yeah, I've got until the October.
Natasha Rai (40:50):
Oh, wow.
That's close.
Angie Faye Martin (40:54):
Yeah.
No.
Um, but I've been working on itfor a while, so.
Yeah, about a year beforeMelaleuca even came out, I was
working.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (41:03):
And does that also mean, and if you don't, if you
can't say that's fine, but doesthat also mean there's a release
date in mind for the second?
Angie Faye Martin (41:10):
Oh no.
Okay.
So yeah, could be next year, butI doubt it.
It's probably gonna be 2027, butI don't know.
Yeah.
I mean, I'm not too fussed to behonest.
Uh, just once I hand it over.
Like to make sure it's in asgood equality as possible.
I'm a bit overwhelmed ordaunting sometimes.
People tell me that they readMelaleuca in two days or in a
(41:32):
single sitting.
I'm like, oh, go back and readit again.
I'm not doing it.
And the next one can come andhelp for another year.
You know, people start ask mewhen I do go around to the do
these speaking events, like, oh,how's the second one going?
We wanna know more about Renee.
I'm like, oh Christ.
Natasha Rai (41:51):
Yeah.
And that also shows the love,right?
Angie Faye Martin (41:54):
Yeah, I'm not gonna, there's, yeah, I don't
wanna rush it though.
I mean, good things take time.
Exactly.
I'm a slow writer.
I'm pretty slow.
Natasha Rai (42:03):
So, um, so in terms of like, we always like to, if
possible, invite our guests togive a little tip or tips to, or
top tip to our emerging writerswho might be listening.
Mm-hmm.
Do you have one in terms of whatyou've, I don't know.
Anything that you've gatheredalong the way?
Angie Faye Martin (42:20):
I mean patience, probably a lot of
patience I think also maybe be abit targeted.
So there seems to be actuallyquite a lot of opportunities out
there.
But do your research, um, seewho the people are behind
various prizes and mentors.
I do recommend that route aswell.
(42:43):
Uh, a lot of the big publishinghouses now have these kind of
programs or opportunities whereyou can go in, you win a prize,
and, but research who, who arethe people behind it, which
mentor would you get?
And, um, doesn't have to bematching genre.
A similar style, like do youthink you could work with them
(43:03):
and open up about yourvulnerabilities as well?
Like, do you think you couldshare what your, you know, what
your, what you think yourweaknesses are in writing?
Because that's how you're gonnaimprove?
Um, yeah, so research, um, don'tgive up.
Be patient.
Uh, enjoy it.
Don't lose the joy for it.
(43:24):
Like, I'm lucky that my husbandconstantly reminds me of, you
know.
Enjoying the craft becausesometimes I get frustrated and
it's not good enough and, youknow, it becomes a job and it
literally is kind of my job now,but it's not gonna be good
writing if you're not enjoyingit.
People can tell, like if you areslaving away at your computer
(43:45):
all day and you're hating it,you writing's probably gonna be
come out like that as well.
So, and that's, that's not easy,but I think that's.
Um, looking after your ownwellbeing, like as in doing what
you love and having a balancedlife, you know?
Mm-hmm.
You looking after your healthand walks and whatever and you
know, catching up with friends.
(44:06):
Like you can't write if you knowwell, if you're not in a good
place yourself, I think.
Natasha Rai (44:12):
Yeah.
Beautiful.
I love that.
And I have a final question,even though you've already given
me so many good tips.
What have you learned about howto write such layered stories?
Angie Faye Martin (44:23):
That it takes time and a meditative type of
practice.
It's not easy.
I think I enjoyed the puzzle.
I enjoyed, I became a bitobsessed with it.
I remember walking around theblock and just, it was like an
obsession to try and make it allfit together.
Um.
(44:45):
All these plot strings and youpull out one loose thread and
then the whole thing falls andyou've gotta put it back
together again.
But part of me enjoyed it aswell.
Mm.
So don't beat yourself up, eventhough there definitely were
times when I beat myself up.
Try not to.
Um, but yeah, the layers and thelayers of the characters, that
(45:06):
just takes time, time and, andlove of, of the work.
The layers in terms of the dualtimelines.
That just takes a lot ofconcentration and time.
Natasha Rai (45:18):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And you know, being so immersedas you were, do you remember if
you took breaks when it all gottoo much, or if you needed to
just to take a bit of distanceand look at it from a different
perspective, that's soimportant.
Angie Faye Martin (45:32):
Like absolutely.
I would take small, like microbreaks during the day, as in
just a walk around the block.
And then I'd also have, um,goals where I would finish the
draft or the chapter or whateverthe timeline that I was working
on by Friday.
And then I would promise myself,I'm not gonna look at it for the
(45:53):
next week.
Like, I'm gonna make myself havea whole week off and just read
or work on something else.
Um, just to give your mind a bitof a break.
I also needed my friends andfamily and my husband to tell me
that as well about Angie, giveit a break.
You know, you get a bit of,because you can't, sometimes you
just, there's an art to it,right?
(46:14):
There's an art to, as much of itis a craft writing.
There's also an art that youneed sometimes the ideas to come
to you.
So I've actually been stuck insomething on sandal with the
sequel and in, when I was inSydney, I remember just lying
back on my bed at the hotel andjust got.
Kind of going into a bit of ameditation, I suppose.
(46:35):
Just there was, there's one partthat I haven't been able to, um,
to pull together and it justcame to me and I was like,
that's the beauty of writing.
Like, yeah, they just, thiselement kind of came to me.
Natasha Rai (46:50):
Oh, I love that.
Well.
Um, sadly we're out time.
I could easily talk a couple ofhours know.
Um, thank you so much for beingmy guest on the book deal, um,
Angie, and um, yeah, I loveMelaleuca and I hope that it
finds all the readers itdeserves'cause it's, it's a
(47:11):
really special book and I lovedit.
Angie Faye Martin (47:13):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me on yourshow.
I have really enjoyed this chat.
Natasha Rai (47:18):
My pleasure.
Thank you.
I had a wonderful chat withAngie and reflecting on our
conversation.
What got me thinking was aroundthe stories we tell and how we
tell them.
So the intention that I'msetting for the following few
weeks or the next month.
(47:39):
This as follows.
So if you have a look at yourmanuscript, regardless of what
genre you're writing in, have alook at the risks that you take
with your storytelling.
Are there layers that you areadding to your characters or to
your plot?
Like are there multiple motifsor themes that you're trying to
explore in your writing?
(47:59):
And if you are not and you wantto tell a story, that's pretty
straightforward.
Have a look at what you arerisking.
Publishers these days are veryinterested in looking at people
playing with form and the typeof risks we might take when we
are writing in a genre that hasa lot of publications in it, for
example, crime.
So that is an invitation and theintention for you to go and have
(48:22):
a look and see where you canmaybe take a few risks.
And of course, one of the Beaumost beautiful things that Angie
and I talked about was the timeto really immerse yourself and
imagine so.
If you can take some time todaydream your way into thinking
about risk taking, storytellingand layering.
(48:43):
That is my invitation to you andthat is the intention.
Thank you to Di Taylor andLindsay Bartels, our newest
Patreon subscribers.
Welcome to the Book Deal podcastcommunity and thank you so much
for your support.
Tina Strachan (49:06):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
podcast.
We're able to bring you theseweekly writerly chats because of
our amazing patrons.
Join the TBD family by becominga member of our Patreon
community@patreon.com, the bookdeal podcast.
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