July 30, 2025 • 51 mins
Host Tina Strachan chats to debut author Carla Salmon about the journey of her young adult mystery thriller, 'We Saw What You Started'. Carla discusses her path from the initial idea to signing with publisher Pan MacMillan. She highlights crucial aspects like the structural evolution of her manuscript, the importance of fleshing out characters, and the challenges of reaching young readers in the current market. Carla also shares practical advice on marketing and building professional platforms for aspiring authors. The episode includes a segment by Tanya Scott about her debut novel, 'Stillwater'.
00:00 Introduction to the Book Deal Podcast
00:43 Meet Carla Salmon: Debut Author
03:10 The Journey to Publication
06:15 Crafting a Young Adult Mystery
08:50 The Editing Process and Agent Search
16:38 Signing with a Publisher
20:52 Writing for Teens and Tweens
24:43 Debut Spotlight: Tanya Scott's Debut Novel 'Stillwater'
25:52 Challenges in Middle Grade and Young Adult Reading
30:22 Navigating the Young Adult Market
36:21 Marketing Strategies for Authors
46:11 Balancing Writing and Marketing
48:49 Final Thoughts and Upcoming Projects
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tina Strachan and Madelein (00:09):
This is the Book Deal podcast where
you will discover the inspiringstories, the authors behind your
favorite books.
No matter what sage of writingyou are at, we've got you
covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one
deal at a time.
Madeleine Cleary (00:29):
The book Deal Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters, which it's recorded
on and pays respect to theirelders past, present, and
emerging.
Tina Strachan (00:46):
Good morning, Carla Salmon and welcome to the
Book Deal podcast.
Thank you so much for having me,Tina.
I'm so excited.
Oh, it is our pleasure.
And congratulations on yourdebut, young adult novel.
We saw what you started.
Thank you.
It's, um, crazy to think it'sactually out in the world now.
Yeah.
It's such a long buildup, isn'tthere?
(01:06):
Um, but I'm gonna get into that.
I wanna ask you all about howlong that was.
Um, but I have lots of things toask you actually.
So I was just telling you aboutthe timeframe that we try and
put on our interviews, and oftenwe just.
We go over'cause there's so manythings and debut authors have so
much to, to give and to share,um, to our, for our listeners.
Um, but you know, you're anauthor and you're a teacher and
(01:28):
you have a career in marketing.
I do.
Uh, which we can tell from yourincredible promotional circuit
that you're currently on, um,and you're a mom.
And, uh, you have just publishedin a category that's quite, that
is very dear to my heart,actually.
Young adult and oh, but it'salso, yeah.
Incredibly hard to be publishedin.
(01:51):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, so I have lots of questionsabout all those things, so let's
see how we go try to fit thatin.
Love it.
So first off, color, um, can yougive us your one-liner and tell
of four, we saw what you startedand give us a little pitch.
Carla Salmon (02:09):
So we saw what you started is a mystery thriller
for 11 to 15 year olds set in asurf lifesaving club.
Tina Strachan (02:17):
That is, that sounds incredible.
And I live, you know, I live onthe Gold Coast, so I, so for me
it had like all the things thatYeah.
Felt really familiar.
Um, so yeah, that's reallyexciting.
Um, and a great one liner.
I think that's, um, yeah.
What would draw in lots of thekids, um, one liners are so
Carla Salmon (02:34):
hard.
I feel like I always need to putso much more into it, because
then I know I go on the spielfor the, you know, what it's
actually about with thecharacters.
But yeah, you do need to try andthink of something that.
Sums it up and, and is at theheart of the story, but is also
going to be a little bitdifferent and a little bit, um,
you know, something that's gonnagrab attention.
Tina Strachan (02:53):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Well, I think you've done a verygood job and you've done that,
but it is, it's, it's, it is askill to create a good
one-liner.
Um, so.
You know, we love debuts here onthe pod of which you are, and we
love a good old debut successstory and publication journey.
So can you take us on thatjourney?
Can you start from like when youactually started writing I sure
(03:17):
can to, yeah.
To when you actually signed thatelusive book deal.
Carla Salmon (03:21):
Yes.
So it's about two and a halfyears ago now from, I guess,
conception to the actual.
Book being on the shelves.
So it has been, um, a reallyamazing period of huge growth
and learning, and it's been veryexciting.
A lot of hard work, but it's thetype of work that, um, gives me
(03:42):
adrenaline and really fills mycup.
So it is, it has gone veryquickly.
But two and a half years ago, myson was 11 at the time, and he
started wanting books that feltolder.
He wanted Eder reads with, youknow, more particularly the
humor.
He felt he wanted something alittle bit more mature and he
also wanted stories that reallyreflected, I guess, his
(04:06):
friendship groups and the morecomplex relationships.
Within his own world and his ownlife.
Um, and some of thosechallenges, and I was quite open
for him to read up becauseobviously they're the
ingredients that usually arepart of a really wonderful young
adult fiction read that isusually targeted at slightly
older readers.
(04:26):
But even those books that I waswilling to, I guess, let him
dabble in, even though I was alittle bit nervous about some of
the themes and the language inthose texts, he just didn't
connect with them because Iguess his own experiences just
didn't ring true for him at thatyounger age, that late tween,
early teenage years.
So he started, um, I guesspushing back against reading,
(04:49):
which completely broke my heartbecause we worked so hard, um,
to try and get our kids.
To be in good reading habits,you know, from picture books
through beautiful junior fictionand then middle grade.
And then I do notice even atschool, kids are starting to, I
guess, get a little bit lost inknowing what to choose next.
And so it was a trend I wasnoticing at school as well as a
(05:10):
teacher.
And I, you know, never thoughtin a million years that I would
actually try and write somethingfor that group of kids until I
was, I guess, reflecting onwhere I was with my career as a
teacher.
I was acting head of year at thetime and really, really busy.
But when you're in a managementrole at school, I guess your
(05:32):
classroom time is reduced alittle, which is your creative
time is being in the classroom.
So I was looking for somethingelse that was just for me, just
pure joy and.
That creative, um, time to yeah,look at something a little bit
different.
And my cousin suggested, youknow, that I do something that's
a side hustle that I guesscompliments teaching, but is
(05:54):
going to, I guess, meet thatneed that I had personally.
And so yeah, over a couple ofmargaritas one afternoon, um, on
a rainy day in Harpy Bay duringthe holidays.
That's one of the best ideashappen.
The best.
It's the best.
She's actually printed a photofor me of the, of that day and,
and sent it through as my, as agift when I was published, so it
was so beautiful.
(06:15):
Anyway, um, but yeah, so thenshe's just suggested, you know,
what about writing?
And again, the actual noveldidn't really come into play
until I was driving home fromthat holiday a few days later.
And I thought, well, you know,if I was going to write a book,
what would it be?
Where would it be?
And you know, thinking of my sonand also my daughter at the time
(06:36):
who was 13 and really lovingmysteries.
Um, if I was to write that kindof book, where would I set it?
And for some reason, the RedSand Surf Lifesaving Club just
kind of popped into my head andI thought, well, I can't really
think of too many books or anybooks actually in young adult
fiction that is positioned as amystery in a surf lifesaving
(06:57):
club.
Maybe that's something that'sdifferent and it obviously is
open for boys and girls.
It's a sport that offers.
You know, a wide range ofparticipants, all ages, all
stages.
Maybe I can work with this.
And then from there, I, I guess,started trying to write a story
and I had no idea what I wasdoing.
And I remember, you know, takingmy, I think it was about 20 or
(07:18):
30,000 words, which I thoughtwas a book at that point, um,
into school and giving it to oneof my beautiful, trusted
teaching colleagues.
And said, you know, would youmind to have a read of this
draft?
You know, I don't know reallywhat I'm doing, but do you think
it would be okay?
And she's like, oh, you meanyour manuscript?
I'm like, what's the manuscript?
I don't know.
Isn't that what you do later?
(07:39):
But anyway, so, or even thelanguage of the industry, I had
no idea about, but she read itfor me and she was very kind
because I certainly can't rereadthat draft now because it's
dreadful.
It's truly dreadful.
Um, and the story has changed somuch.
Being the wonderful kind teachershe is with constructive
feedback, she said, yeah, look,I think there's something there.
I love the idea.
(08:00):
You should actually do somecourses and, and find out more
about it.
And that was when I firststarted finding this amazing
community, um, that we have inBrisbane, but also all
throughout Australia.
These, you know, this writingcommunity where authors are.
Available.
Um, and you can talk to them andyou can find out and go to their
(08:21):
launches and attend workshopvisits, um, and people offer to,
to read your work once you haveformed really wonderful
relationships.
So yeah, from there then I justgot completely addicted, um, to
learning as much as I could.
Going and, and chatting topeople.
And I guess it was probablyabout 12 months before I had an
(08:45):
actual manuscript that wassuitable for a young adult
pitch.
Um, and then it was anotherauthor who actually offered to
read it for me and she said.
I love it, but that incitingincident that's, oh, sorry.
The inciting incident is, is tooslow.
I think you should bring thereally big, um, event at the end
(09:06):
that's in the climax to the verybeginning of the book.
And I thought that's a wonderfulidea.
But I only had three days beforethe closing date for, for the
agent I really wanted to submitto Annabel Barker, um, actually
closed.
So I basically said goodbye tomy family, bunker down.
Rewrote the whole book, kind of,I guess, with unpicking and
(09:27):
retreading the threads andmanaged to get it into Annabel
and.
Sure, sure enough, um, a monthlater I heard back from her
saying that she would like torequest the full manuscript and
then of course it went fromthere.
So, oh my gosh, color.
Tina Strachan (09:42):
There's so many incredible things about that,
but I'm mortified about thethree days of pulling it apart.
I have to say holy smoke.
It was intense.
That's hard.
Yeah.
And it's not even just movingthe inside.
'cause a lot of people start thebook in the wrong spot.
Exactly.
Um, like a couple of chapterstoo early and so it's.
It's bringing forward, you know,you can get rid of a couple of
chapters at the beginning.
(10:02):
Um, I've actually even just donethat recently myself, but
they're still important.
You have to write them.
Yeah.
So don't be discouraged ifthat's what you've done, because
that's almost you getting it outon the page.
Right.
And, um.
And, and actually working outyour characters and your
setting.
So it's important, but you justgotta, you gotta kill those
darlings and just start off inthat action.
(10:23):
But I've never had to bringsomething right from the end to
the very beginning.
And that is, and of course whenyou do that, there's those
threads, like you said,unpacking and picking and, and
just the thought of, um, yeah.
Trying to follow those threadsthrough is, um.
Carla Salmon (10:40):
Yeah, heart very hard.
It's crazy.
So I hope I don't have to do itagain, but it was so worth it.
I mean, obviously I would do it10,000 times over to have that
opportunity, you know, to, forthe agent to read it and, and be
interested in it.
And of course then there was somuch work that was then done
with the publishers after that.
(11:00):
Um, but I think it's that wholeidea of if you get an
opportunity, you've just gottagrab it.
Um, and I guess that's.
Always been my mindset when Ifirst started, you've got
nothing to lose.
Mm-hmm.
It's, you know, it's, it's yourtime and everything's an
opportunity to learn more.
Just go for it.
Tina Strachan (11:17):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And, um, did, did they, sothere's a reason for this
question.
Did you find after you submittedand Anabel got back to you, did
you find some thread that hadn'tactually been like, picked up?
Carla Salmon (11:34):
Oh, definitely.
And look, yeah, the whole bookthen, you know, as we, as I
learned how to write a novelstill throughout that process,
um, was, was continuous right upuntil publication.
So Annabel then came back to mewith her suggestions, um, and we
(11:54):
workshopped a little bit furtherbefore we went actually out to
market.
And then once.
It was then signed with thepublisher and we started that,
um, that structural editingprocess.
There were significant threadsthat changed again throughout
those edits.
Um, the story was at the heartand soul of the story.
It was always consistent.
(12:15):
Mm-hmm.
Um, because I wanted that.
Edgy teen voice.
Mm-hmm.
Um, something that was, I guess,quintessentially Australian and
had those, those dual points ofview.
So those characters were alwaysquite solid.
But definitely we enhanced thecharacterization of.
Both, um, milli and Ottothroughout that editing process.
(12:37):
But in terms of the extracharacters and the mystery
itself, the person who was firstresponsible for, you know, for
the crimes in the initial editsis no longer even in the book.
Mm-hmm.
So we, um, we rewrote, I guess,the start and the finish
multiple times throughout theprocess.
Tina Strachan (12:56):
Yeah.
And I love that and it's reallyimportant.
It's really important and Iwanted to just chat about.
Because I think a lot of peopleput all this emphasis on being
absolutely 100% perfect withtheir manuscript.
And of course you have to makeit as polished as you could be.
You would have thought at theend of those three days that
(13:16):
everything was smooth.
You, because you're in such a,you such tunnel vision and
you've just looked at it somuch, you're not picking up
things anymore.
You a hundred percent need neweyes.
Um, and.
Things do still get picked,picked up and worked on with the
agent and the publisher.
And maybe it's, you know,timeline issues or, uh, making
(13:37):
sure the, that the threads, uh,all match up again because it's
been moved.
Or there's characters, like yousaid, that completely come out.
I don't even know how, how youstart with that or come, come
in.
Like I've heard people writecharacters in and, um, I think
that's important to, you know,kind of for people who.
Are just still tinkering.
(13:58):
Stop tinkering.
Carla Salmon (13:59):
Absolutely.
Tina Strachan (13:59):
Because like you said, it's the heart and the
soul, isn't it?
That they're looking for, theyhave read your work, they know
that you can write, um, but it'sthe heart and the soul of the
story that they're looking forand the message and.
Everything else creates thatpackage.
Um, there's multiple, I guess,points that they're looking for
and values that they're lookingfor.
Uh, they a hundred percentunderstand that you can fix a
(14:21):
character, you can fix a plot,you can flick, fix a timeline,
but everything else needs to bethere.
Um, yes, I agree.
Important.
Carla Salmon (14:29):
I totally agree.
And I think also, I guess what Ifocus on as well is the
characters being, um, as fleshedout as possible and as real as
possible.
Because I feel like it's a bitlike, you know that saying, you
know, you don't remember whatpeople, what someone did, but
you remember the way they, thatthey made you feel.
Yes.
It's a bit like that with books,I think, because we don't
(14:52):
necessarily remember exactly theplot beats or the moments in a
story, but we fall in love withthe characters so.
Whilst of course, you know, you,you might adapt them and, and
develop and deepen theircharacter arcs their
characteristics and who theyare.
If you can flesh that out asmuch as possible, then I totally
(15:12):
agree.
Then it's kind of like playingwith Barbie dolls, you know,
like you're back, you're back asa kid and you're just changing
the story of as to what thesecharacters are doing.
Mm-hmm.
Um.
I think that is also what, what,what publishers and agents are
looking for is, you know, havewe got really, have we got
characters here that will reallyconnect with people?
(15:33):
And you know, that's thefeedback that I'm receiving
through my, through my draftingprocess.
And now when the book's out onshelves is how much people can.
To those characters, and if theydon't, then that's a real
problem.
Tina Strachan (15:46):
Mm-hmm.
I a hundred percent agree withyou, and I remember thinking
this just recently.
I finished a book, it was agreat book.
I really enjoyed it.
I literally put it down and thenext day I was thinking about
it, which is a sign of a goodbook, right?
Yeah.
Could it tell you what a singlename of any of the characters
were?
Just like, you just gloss overthat.
But I remember how it made mefeel and I remember how it made
(16:07):
me think about it, and that'simportant.
But yeah, I couldn't.
Couldn't tell you now half thecharacters that I've read
because, and we spend so muchtime agonizing over names and
things, don't we?
No one cares.
Absolutely.
Carla Salmon (16:18):
No cares.
No, that's exactly right.
I mean, I'm sure they do allthat's more details.
Tina Strachan (16:23):
That's right.
Uh, that's amazing.
So, such an incredible story.
Um, and signing with AnnabelleBarker, who's amazing.
Oh, she's, that's, yeah.
She's like a, a dream agent.
Mm.
And can you tell us whathappened after that?
Carla Salmon (16:37):
I can.
Yeah.
So, um, so we, I signed withAnnabel and then yeah, we
workshopped the manuscript for alittle bit.
Um, and then, you know, you, youget that message from her that
says, okay, we're gonna send itout.
And, you know, it's the, I thinkthat was probably the most
exciting thing that has happenedso far, because it's that
(16:58):
initial, oh my goodness.
This is actually going to beread by these incredible people
in the publishing world.
Um, and it, it's happening.
And so I was incredibly nervousand that that actual process
then takes a few months.
Um, and so she sent it out to anumber of publishers.
(17:18):
I think three of them, um, cameback and said, look, it's just
not quite right for us.
But three did come back andsaid, yes, please.
We would, we would like to talkfurther.
Um, and they were incredible.
Names and just dream publishers.
And they were all spectacular.
And I then had meetings, zoomcalls with each of the
(17:38):
publishers, um, and they talkedto me about what they thought
the book could be and what Icould be for them as well and
where I would fit.
Um, and, you know, that wassurreal.
That was completely ridiculous.
I remember hanging up from thatcall, just going, you know, each
one going, sorry, is thisactually, is this actually real?
Um, it's the dream.
(17:59):
It was amazing.
And you know, I guess that isthe benefit of, of having
someone, um, who as an agent,able to negotiate and, and put
those opportunities in place.
Um.
Yeah, and you know, each, itwouldn't have mattered which
one, um, I went with in the end,like it, in terms of they all
had wonderful opportunities.
(18:21):
I ended up signing with PamMcMillan because the publisher I
met with there just really, Iguess, connected with me
personally, and I just feltlike.
They were gonna look after me asan author as well as with all of
my books, um, or hopefully moreof my books.
Um, and the idea initially forthe story was always that I
(18:46):
wanted to have it, um, specificfor I guess that young, those
young teens, early tweens,sorry, late tweens age group,
and.
In that group though, I want itto be as edgy as possible and to
really push it within thoseboundaries so that yes, parents
can give it to teenagers to readand allow them to read it.
(19:08):
Completely independently andfeel comfortable that the themes
and the language is ageappropriate.
And also for teacher librarians,I think we have to remember that
with teacher librarians workingin schools and we're, you know,
we're accountable to parents.
Um, it is tricky sometimesrecommending books that are.
You know, obvi for older, olderchildren to read.
(19:30):
Um, so I really wanted to offerthat because I, I, that was what
I was wanting for my own son atthe time and, and the students
at my school.
Um, but I also know that thesekids wanted something that felt
older.
And so that meant that I neededhelp to try and make this
probably quite, the story was alittle bit gentler at the
beginning, um, and.
(19:52):
Pam McMillan just said, I thinkwe can take this further.
We can make it grittier.
We can make it punchier andedgier and let's, you know, push
it right to the very edge thatwe can within this age group
that you want to write for.
And I just thought, yes.
That's, that's what I want.
That's exactly what I want.
Um, and delightfully that hasbeen the process all the way
(20:14):
along.
It is, it's been one of truecollaboration.
Um, all of my ideas, uh, takenreally seriously, right from,
you know, the writing stagethrough to the cover design,
through to, um, you know, thenotes that go in the back of the
book to the kids that we gotfor, you know, endorsements.
So at every point of the way.
(20:35):
Um, I felt like it's just beensuch an amazing teamwork, um,
situation, which I'm, I'm reallygrateful for.
Tina Strachan (20:43):
Mm-hmm.
Um, can I ask practically when,and for authors that are
listening who want to write someya or, um.
Some older middle grade andthere's that sort of crossover
isn't there in the middle.
Mm.
And making it grittier andpunchier.
What does that look like?
Like how can you make somethinggrittier and punchier?
Carla Salmon (21:03):
Mm.
I think it comes down to thelanguage that you are using when
you are speaking in thecharacter voice.
Um, so I chose to write in firstperson present tense, um,
because I also love books.
That are written in that, um, inthat style.
So I guess a Holly Jackson voiceminus some of the, the older,
(21:25):
more mature language and, um,some of the themes and, and
actions that happen in thosetypes of texts.
So I guess I was trying to.
Think about how I can uselanguage that is shorter
sentences, sharper sentences forboys particularly.
I think that's, and I really wasreally trying to listen to the
teens in my life, um, and toThat's right,
Tina Strachan (21:47):
bro.
A
Carla Salmon (21:48):
fair second sentence.
That's exactly right.
Well, I got in in trouble forthat.
Tina Strachan (21:52):
Yeah.
Well, yeah, that's another thingto touch on, not being too
slanging and not, and, and wordsthat can date.
Carla Salmon (21:59):
That's right.
And actually the teens don'twant that.
So it was my own son who said,oh my gosh, that is so cringe.
You like, that's what you soundlike.
I know I did.
I'm like, I'm just mirroringexactly what you talk, how you
say it.
Um, and, but I did need to beconscious of that.
So whilst they wanted to be areflection of how they speak,
they.
(22:19):
It actually can't be a truereflection.
So it's this really weird kindof fine line that you play in.
Um, and I think that's the wordthat I wanna focus on.
If we are writing for teens andtweens, you have to play, you
have to play with the words, andyou have to think, um, how can I
make this sound?
Fun and a little bit edgier andcooler with the way that I'm
(22:42):
mixing it up.
So I play with hyphens, like ahyphenate, bunches of words
together for the girls.
'cause you know, if we've, we'vegot young teen girls, they use
four or five adjectives in arow.
Um, or they string their, theirwords together.
They're not necessarily speakingin a really cohesive, fluent
pattern, so you can't write awhole sentence like that.
But throwing in a few of thoseevery now and again, I really, I
(23:05):
like to play with that.
Um, for the, and like I said,for the boys, shorter, sharper,
edgier, keeping it reallypractical.
And also removing some of thetechnical language.
So, you know, with when my son'sediting my book now, um, you
know, one of his, his quotesfrom the book two that he's
reading at the moment was, okay,enough with the environmental
(23:28):
facts, it's sounding tooeducational.
Tina Strachan (23:30):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
And so
Carla Salmon (23:30):
they see through it and they don't, because they
don't give each other.
You know, I guess factual adviceabout a setting.
Do they, they just aren't yet?
No.
Tina Strachan (23:41):
Do boys even talk to each other?
Carla Salmon (23:42):
Sometimes I wonder.
I don't know.
They just, and that's the thing,they're so quiet sometimes.
Sometimes it can be.
Um, and so trying to thread thatin instead to descriptive
sentences through thecharacter's eyes.
But again, even limiting that,so focusing as well on pace and
keeping that pace really niceand, um, tight, I think is, is a
(24:05):
real key point for writing for,um, young teens and tweens
because they, they will simplyput it down.
They, they used to, like,they're in a world where they,
if they don't like what they'rewatching, they swipe to the next
thing, or they flick thechannel.
They don't even have to watchfor, you know, the next Dawson's
Creek episode to drop in a week.
Do they like, they just.
(24:27):
Ads gonna switch it on toanother series, there's no ads.
Um, and so I think as writers,we need to be conscious of that
and aim to do everything we canto give them the opportunity to
keep turning the page.
Tanya Scott (24:43):
Hi listeners.
I'm Tanya Scott and my debutnovel Stillwater is out on the
29th of July with Alan and UnwinStillwater's a crime thriller.
It's about Luke, a young manwho's recently returned to his
home city of Melbourne afterseveral years running away from
his troubled early life and hischaotic father.
He's keeping a low profile, buthe's broke.
His car's dying and hisuniversity exams are hanging
(25:04):
over his head.
Luke's quiet.
Life is thrown into turmoil whenGus Alberici, the criminal he
worked for as a teenager, trackshim down and wants him back on
the job.
And Gus is not the kind of blokewho takes no for an answer.
Luke is roped into a hunt forhis estranged father who's
vanished, along with a chunk ofGus's cash.
In the meantime, Luke'snavigating a new relationship
(25:25):
with a flamboyant actor, andhe's pulled into her family
dysfunction while grappling withpeople and events from a past
he'd much rather leave behindhim and holding on tight to
secrets that just might get himkilled.
Stillwater's a story about areluctant criminal.
It's about not allowing yourpast to define you and about
learning to be the Stillwaterwhen the sea around you is
churning.
(25:46):
I hope you enjoy it.
Tina Strachan (25:52):
it's a real epidemic at the moment, isn't
it?
Um, reading amongst kids, butmostly boys is a real issue and
they drop out of that, like evenmiddle grade with just, they're
just dropping out of, and Iguess for listeners who aren't
aware, middle grade, so thedifference between.
Middle grade, and then there'sjunior fiction as well, which is
younger, but middle grade is,um, it can be eight or nine plus
(26:15):
usually, um, up to about 12characters, generally speaking.
And there's always, you know,uh, exceptions to the rule, but
generally speaking, uh,protagonists can't really, or
shouldn't really be teenagers.
So then 13 and up kind ofbecomes, um.
Young adult, yes, but thirteensstill quite young.
(26:36):
Um, but, so then young adult isteenage protagonists, but that
can be so wide and so varied aswell, you know, 13 through to,
you know, 19 even guess 19, 20.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the kids do like to read upand from all ages, from young
ages, like generally their cha,the characters are a couple of
years older.
So there's that real in betweenperiod where, you know, you have
(27:00):
11 and 12 year olds wanting toread up and then you just, their
only options are these, yasometimes just maybe a little
bit inappropriate or, or not.
They're not ready for it.
Like you were saying, it's, it'skind of a real gap.
Yeah.
Um, I've heard recently thatthe, the girls are reading up,
but not just like way up, likeout of ya.
(27:21):
They're reading like Col,Colleen Hoover and things like
that.
They're just really, um, whetheror not they're ready for it, I
don't, I don't know.
Or is it just they're so used,what they're seeing these days
and hearing and watching is sobeyond.
What we are used to them, so, sothey're so used to it and it's
not as.
(27:41):
Kind of shocking or for them andyeah, reading up and I, and I
can only imagine what's I, Idon't meet Colleen Hoover, but I
can only imagine there's a lotof romance in
Carla Salmon (27:51):
those ones, right?
I think so, yeah.
And I think, I think sometimesin middle grade, the moral of
the story.
Um, can be really clear.
Mm-hmm.
And if you've got a more maturekid, they, they don't, they,
they really don't wanna be toldwhat to do or, and they don't
want to be feeling like a parentor a teacher is speaking to them
(28:12):
through the character voices.
Um, and, you know, there'swonderful, wonderful middle
grade.
I'm such a huge advocate formiddle grade, um, who, which
doesn't do that.
And they do it really well.
Of course.
I mean, your own books Tina are,are fantastic.
Um, but it is a fine line,right?
Because.
You want it to be somewhatwholesome and to have a lesson
that is.
(28:34):
Um, at the end of it that kidscan take away, because that's
the whole point of books, right?
We wanna build empathy and offersomething that makes'em a
slightly better human in somesort of way, especially in those
younger years.
And for some of those kids whoare reading middle grade, uh,
younger as well, and they'rewanting those beautiful,
gentler, um, and, you know, funreads.
(28:56):
So it's tricky when you get akid who's.
Old enough to read or a verygood reader to read up, but not,
you know, they see throughsometimes the morals and those
types of things, but they'redefinitely not ready for that
high level complex, um, maturethemes in the older YA and, and
in just normal fiction as well,of course.
Tina Strachan (29:18):
Yeah, it's really tricky and I have heard an agent
say before, you know, a, a kidcan smell a parent or an adult
from a mile away.
So if you make any of your wordsset, like they don't want a mom
coming through to them whilethey, while they're reading.
Um, so that's really importanttoo, just.
Yeah, absolutely.
In young adult, definitely.
(29:38):
Um, making sure that thatdoesn't shine through, but like
you said, yeah, middle gradethere, I think, I mean, I'm not
an expert on the genre, but I,yeah, I think most of the time
it's expected that there's alittle bit of a learning, a
little bit of a message at theend, but absolutely.
Still you can't make it.
Feel like they're being Howexplicit?
Yeah.
Educated.
(29:58):
Uh, definitely.
Yeah.
You have to hide it.
Carla Salmon (30:00):
Well, they're wanting to read for, we we're
wanting them to read for fun andfor pleasure, right?
Mm-hmm.
So I guess in that time, they'renot in a, an educational mindset
that they're willing to take in,um, I guess the life lessons
necessarily.
Um, certainly explicitly.
So yeah.
We, we need to thread it throughwith invisible thread.
Yes.
Yes,
Tina Strachan (30:21):
that's right.
So, uh, like I said, ya is, um,very close to my heart.
I love reading it and I lovewriting it as well.
Um, but it is, uh, hard to, toget across the line.
Multiple publishers and agentsjust say, it's just really
tricky.
Um, did you get any, sorry,could you.
(30:41):
Just tell us a little bit aboutyour journey with that and any
thoughts on the market and haveyou had any, you know,
conversations with, you know,publishers and agents, um, that
can offer some advice to peoplewho do love to write ya and r
writing ya and trying to gettheir ya across the line.
And, you know, I've, I knowpeople who've been told, just
age it down.
Just make all the characters,age them down.
(31:03):
Get rid of any romance.
'cause also romance is not, issomething that's.
Not usually in middle grade.
Um, and just age it down or ageit up.
Just make them adults and.
So there's again, this gap.
Um, any advice or thoughts onthat?
Carla Salmon (31:22):
Yeah.
Yes, and I was, um, encouragedby the one publisher to
potentially age it down as well.
So I did receive that and I tookit seriously because I
understand.
Um, it's partly, I think, to dowith.
The reach to schools, so weknow, which is an absolute
tragedy, that schools, um, andall librarians in schools are
(31:43):
becoming fewer and fewer.
So, you know, not, there's somany high schools now that don't
actually have teacherlibrarians, um, which, you know,
breaks my heart completely.
But it's a reality and hopefullywe can change that as a society.
And we've got wonderfulorganizations fighting really
hard to make sure that there arelibrarians still in every single
(32:06):
school because you know, we knowthe stats on reading and we know
how in absolutely crucial it isfor every part of literacy, but
also as a space for a communityand just to offer.
So many wonderful things.
So we know all about that.
But as well, the majority ofteacher librarians are in
primary schools.
So if we are aiming to, um, froma marketing perspective, try and
(32:30):
reach, um, our books intoschools and to have that, um, I
guess that market be accessibleas widely as possible.
I understand that publishers aresaying, well, yeah, we've still
got that, that in, um, at thatprimary school age.
And also parents are stillbuying books a lot for children
in that younger age categorybecause the kids are still
(32:53):
reading, I guess, at that, atthat.
At that age group, once kidstend to get their first phone,
they're catching the bus home,they're involved in a whole
bunch of co-curricular, um, youknow, parents themselves are
really, really busy withteenagers.
I, myself, as a parent,definitely don't, um, I guess,
(33:13):
hassle my kids as much to tryand designate that reading time.
And that's as an author and anEnglish teacher.
So, so it's, it's reallychallenging, I think.
And so I, I understand whynumbers tend to drop off a
little bit in that, you know,older, older tween, young teen
age group.
Because books are competing withso many things.
(33:35):
Uh, in saying that though,that's why I think it's
absolutely crucial that anybooks that we do put in the
hands of those young teens, ithas to ring true for them and it
has to hit home and it has tograb them so that they, we start
getting that really positiveexperience again then, and then
of course the demand increases.
Mm-hmm.
(33:55):
Um, so yeah, I think if you areaiming to write.
If you've got a beautiful yathat you're really passionate
about, thinking about, well whatis, what is the market in beyond
just your own?
I guess publishing world, howcan you make connections beyond
who you know within the writingcommunity?
(34:17):
So for example, I've looked toinfluencers, teen influencers,
and who can I reach and who canI team up with, um, who are
creative types.
And who have got, you know,fabulous followings as well who
are working with parents.
Um, and that's been a really bigpositive because all of a sudden
you've got people who wouldn'tnormally follow authors, for
(34:37):
example, on different varioussocial media platforms.
They're becoming aware and mostkids don't know that you can go
and see an author present at alaunch or that they are, that,
that, you know, our bookstoresand our libraries are doing all
of these fantastic events.
They actually don't know aboutit.
Especially if they don't have alibrarian in their school
(34:58):
promoting these things.
Um, so yeah, I think thinkingcreatively about how you can
come up with a plan to reachpeople.
Um, I did talk about that when,um, you know, during the
process, um, when, when theauction was happening and who I
was actually going to, to gowith about how to reach people
(35:18):
beyond.
I guess what the norm is, um, totry and maximize all the
connections that we had betweenus.
So I think, yeah, if we canthink ourselves, who else is out
there that can draw kids backinto making reading cool and
fun, let's connect and let'swork with these people and the
(35:38):
influencers who are in thesekids' world.
Tina Strachan (35:41):
Yeah, because they play such a big role for
them, don't they?
That's where they're gettingthese words from and, um, all
the things that they're askingto do and have and buy is all.
Coming from that whole differenttype of marketing that we were
ever brought up with.
Um, though I do think for girlsit's a bit easier because it's a
bit more accepted and they, youknow, they love a good sort of
(36:02):
book talk sort of situation andbook influencers, especially if
you write romantic or Yeah.
Um, fantasy for young adults,that seems to still be going
pretty strong.
Absolutely.
But yeah, it is about marketingand trying to find those
different ways of.
Getting your book into people'shands, like you said.
Now, can you please share someadvice for.
(36:25):
Those of us who don't, whoaren't, don't have marketing
backgrounds, uh, because it'salways something that's
discussed a lot between thedebut crew.
Uh, you know, how, what do I doto, to help get my book out
there?
Because a lot of, um, debut or alot of aspiring authors don't
realize that, um.
Your publishers do a lot to do alot for you as an author and,
(36:48):
you know, get your book on theshelves, which is the most
important thing.
But when it comes to publicityand promotion and marketing,
it's um, different foreverybody.
And probably the one thing thatis, um.
You know, the same for everybodyis that you do have to put in an
effort yourself, and there arethings that you can do.
Um, can you help us with thatcolor because you've been
(37:10):
everywhere and doing lots ofthings.
And, um, yeah, a, a really goodexample of how to yeah.
Use your connections and yournetwork and, um, and get your
book out there.
So what practical tips andadvice do you have for us?
Carla Salmon (37:25):
Yes, I think, um, my background is public
relations and marketing.
So before I was a teacher, thatwas my life for 10 years.
And so for me, it kind of justmade sense immediately that if
I'm going to write a book andI'm gonna dedicate all of these
hours.
Into creating a product.
'cause that's essentially whatit is then.
(37:46):
Well, of course it's a business,right?
And you have to be reallyconscious of that and own it as
a business from the beginning.
Um, imposter syndrome is rifeand I don't think any of us ever
escape that.
And I don't know if we ever, itdoesn't matter how successful
you are.
I speak to other authors all thetime and they still feel like
imposters because it is apersonal reflection of.
(38:07):
Your own work.
It's such a, it is such apersonal thing, but it's also a
product.
Um, and you as an author are aproduct potentially, especially
if you're writing for childrenbecause you are offering your
services to go and visit schoolsand, um, potentially be as, be a
speaker and.
Offer those visits.
So I was very conscious rightfrom the beginning about setting
(38:31):
up my platforms before I eventhought about going to an agent,
um, to make sure that I hadthose bases established, that I
would come across as theprofessional business owner
that.
I want it to be.
Um, and I think we, yeah, weneed to be really confident of
that as creatives, and you cando it yourself.
(38:54):
So I have actually, um, built myown website on Squarespace.
Now, I'm not a tech person atall.
Um, but there's, you will knowsomeone in your life who can
help you through developing thebasics of a website, thinking
about every single.
Image on that website and thefont and all of those elements,
(39:15):
they all have to contribute tothe feeling that you want your
readers to feel when you arereading the book.
Um, so for me, my book, I hopeat the end of it when people
have read it, is that it's beena, an escapist read.
It's, it's a fun place.
It's set in this Instagramworthy, um, location.
It's.
Coastal and beachy, and thoseare the vibes.
(39:36):
And so those are the vibes thatI try to put into my Instagram
and into LinkedIn and also ontomy website.
And if you're going to be, Iguess, writing in a positive
way, thinking about yourlanguage when you're
communicating on those platformsas well.
Um, and so I think it's, yeah,thinking really holistically
(39:56):
about.
Who you want to be as an author,and of course it can and change,
but at the beginning when you.
Proposing that you're gonna teamup with a publisher and an agent
who, who is also, um, abusiness, then what can you
contribute in the way that makeslife as easy as possible for
them?
(40:16):
So yeah, building those bridges,um, right from the beginning
also.
Following and connecting withpeople through social media.
It is absolutely crucial thatit's a mutually beneficial
relationship.
So it can't be fake.
It has to be authentic, and itshould be because otherwise it'd
be really unpleasant.
Mm.
Um, but you know, if you areconnecting and supporting
(40:37):
people, that's actually whatmakes it really fun as well.
And some of my greatestconnections are a result of a
year's worth of me just beinggenuinely.
Interested and excited andcelebrating other people's
successes.
Um, and again, like that's,that's all so much fun that
that's the easy part of the job.
But it, it's also, I've foundnow kind of accidentally, I
(41:00):
guess by this point is that,that that comes back around, um.
If you can be active in lookingat people you're following,
manage your Instagram and, andyour social media really, really
carefully.
Um, but yeah, being aware thateverything that you post is part
of your business brand.
So what do you want kids to knowyou as?
(41:21):
What do you want teachers toknow you as?
Um, what do you want parents andbooksellers.
So it's beyond just, I guess,the book as a product.
Um, I'm not sure if that'sactually what you're meant to
say as a creative because it's,it's meant to be all about the
book right from the beginning.
Right.
And it is, but, but if you wantit to, to be, that's really good
advice.
Yeah.
Tina Strachan (41:41):
Yeah, it's really good advice and I love how you
say to treat it like a businessand it's, I think it's so true
that you don't, you know, wecreated this product, which is
our book, and anybody who, and,and I've, we always say multiple
times on the pod that you knowwhen it is, when you do start a
business, it's many years untilyou actually make some money
back out of it as well.
(42:02):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So, you know, so there's lots ofthings that's, you know.
Um, comparing, sort of creatinga product, say that sits on a
shelf in a, in Woolies, so afood product, um, you wouldn't
do that.
You wouldn't create thisproduct.
Then just not send it outanywhere or get advice on it or
(42:25):
get feedback on it.
And when you're approaching apublisher or an agent, they're,
you're actually looking to themas like your investors, I guess,
totally.
In your product that you'reputting on the shelf.
And so when you said aboutpresenting, like someone who.
Running a business, a, a, areputable business, and you're
taking it very seriously, thenyou need to present like that
(42:48):
with your website and yoursocial media and all those
things.
It re like, it really is, lookat it like you're starting a
business and you're a businessowner.
I love, I love that.
Yeah,
Carla Salmon (42:58):
I mean, we certainly know some authors who
have just had so much successand haven't worried about the
social media and, and I guessthat el those other elements.
Um, and that can certainlyhappen.
So it's not a one size fits all,that's for sure.
And it, it, I think it also, youhave to be interested in it.
Um, and so I really, I reallyenjoy.
(43:18):
The connections that I haveonline.
Um, and I love putting togetherthe website and those elements,
so that's fun.
Um, if you really, really don'tenjoy that, then you don't have
to focus as much energy on it.
But I still think it's good tohave a nice polished platform as
a starting base.
Mm-hmm.
And then see where I guess yourtime is best spent.
Tina Strachan (43:38):
Yeah.
I think it just shows that youare serious about it, doesn't
it, by having all these othertouch points that you can refer
back to.
But yeah.
Again, it all comes back tohaving a solid book and a solid
story, um, in the first place,which, you know, overrides any
of those sorts of things andauthors would prefer that than
you having a sparkly website,but Oh, for sure.
Yeah, and it's certainlyhelpful.
(43:58):
Sorry.
Yeah, it's certainly helpfulwhen, um, I.
It's, you know, especially forcategories like ya, where it's
very hard to, you know, to, tobe published and to be picked
up.
And sometimes, you know, whenthere's a, um, you know,
publishers are getting so manymanuscripts submitted to them
every week, every little bitcan't hurt.
Carla Salmon (44:19):
That, that was my thought as well.
Like if I, and I guess that'sprobably my philosophy with all
of this throughout the journey,which sometimes becomes, um, I
guess, detrimental to my sleepand, and all of those elements.
But, um, doing everything Ipossibly can to open as many
doors as possible, um, hasalways been the way I've played
(44:39):
it.
So, you know, and, and because Ialso enjoy it, so, you know,
going to events.
Talking to people, pushingyourself outside your comfort
zone when you walk into a roomfull of complete strangers as,
as a like, feeling massiveimposter syndrome.
Mm-hmm.
Because you didn't know thedifference between a draft and a
manuscript, um, when you firstinitially make those contacts.
(44:59):
But if you can do that.
Um, it certainly does come backaround in a really positive way,
but you're absolutely right.
It's got to come back, back tothe product that you make, that
you should be really proud of.
And again, you know, we tell ourown kids and students at school
the time, be really proud ofyour work and, and celebrate it.
(45:19):
Um, but you know, as adultswe're so conscious of it, of
course, thinking, oh my gosh,what if it's rubbish?
And what if.
What if it's not good enough?
Um, that sometimes we're alittle bit shy to actually put
it out there and say, Hey, youknow, this is a collaborative
opportunity.
You know, should we pair up?
And what, what can we do to worktogether?
Um, and I think we need to, toget better at trying to put
(45:42):
ourselves out there.
I've, I'm the worst.
I'm still, you know, I stillshutter every time someone says,
oh, I've just read your book.
And I go, oh gosh.
That's right.
That's the whole reading bit.
That's, it's all, it's all welland good to create this.
Fun.
You know, this fun opportunity,but it's actually out in the
world.
Yeah, it's okay.
Yep.
You've gotta read it.
Yeah.
Um.
We, we do have to just grab itand hold onto it and, and be
(46:05):
proud of it and try andcelebrate it as best as we
possibly can.
Yeah,
Tina Strachan (46:09):
I agree.
That's good.
Good points.
But you know, it is timeconsuming though as well, and
especially when you're a parentwith kids.
Like some, sometimes things justhave to give and sometimes it is
that whole social media and um,you know, creating that sort of
business side of it.
So.
Um, this is for anyone who'slistening.
This is, you know, yourpermission to, to just let it
(46:31):
drop sometimes, because you do.
It is a con.
It's just another thing that youdo think about.
And, and I have the amount ofvideos or photos that I have on
my phone where I've gone, oh,that would look, that would look
good for a post.
Or, um, you know, I've madevideos that I really wanna post,
but, you know, it takes time toedit and put in.
And um, post, and I justsometimes, you know, as a
(46:52):
parent, your time is so, and aworking, you know, writer also
have another job also, you know,have kids that are, have a
thousand sporting commitments.
Exactly.
Um, youre, your day is reallyblocked out every second of the
day.
Sometimes you have to say toyourself, well, what's best use
of my time right now?
Is it editing this video?
Is it actually working on mynext manuscript?
(47:13):
You know, is this video takingout time from.
Actually doing, progressing mycareer as a writer and Exactly.
So, yeah, sometimes you justhave to let these things go
because, you know, an Instagrampost is fleeting.
Um, but the most important thingis getting your words down in
the
Carla Salmon (47:29):
end.
Oh, I, I agree.
And I think also being aware of,once you've got your platforms
established, it's all well andgood.
You've gotta keep that machinebeing fed to a certain extent,
but.
It's the same people.
So how can you then look toconnect with people beyond your
current group and can you useyour time strategically to
(47:50):
develop those new connections?
Um, so for example, Instagram'sgreat, um, but LinkedIn is
actually the place where so manywonderful teacher librarians are
present.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I found some fabulousconnections there and I don't
post a lot on LinkedIn.
But I certainly, when I do, um,I've developed some, some
wonderful connections there, andthat's something that I would
(48:11):
never have worried about.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but yeah, I totally agreewith you.
I think it's, it's really easyto get it to fall into that trap
of thinking, oh, I've gotta, youknow, gotta put it on.
I've gotta put it up, you know,I haven't posted today.
Mm-hmm.
What are you doing again fromthat strategic business
perspective, and can youschedule time?
That you are doing that andtrying not to just get that
(48:32):
dopamine hit to see, you know,how many people have actually
liked a really cute, funny videothat you put up.
Tina Strachan (48:38):
You do.
It is, it's hard.
And it is a dopamine hit, isn'tit?
Oh, well, Carla, that is suchgreat advice, and I'm sure
everybody who's listening willtake away lots of great, you
know, tips from this.
But what is your number oneoverall top tip for debut
writers or for aspiring authors?
Carla Salmon (48:57):
My number one tip definitely is to try and have as
many face-to-face meetings asyou can with people in the
industry.
So talk to people, you know, goto their launches, um, go to
these wonderful events that areoffered all the time, and.
And even if you find itexhausting from that emotional
(49:19):
perspective, which it can be,that's the part that fills your
cup.
Um, because you know, it'sthose, those real human
interactions and connectionsthat is at the heart of
storytelling.
So, yeah, don't be shy.
Everyone is so inviting and sogenerous, um, and you just never
(49:39):
know who you're gonna meet whenyou go to these events.
Tina Strachan (49:42):
Hmm.
It's very true.
Very true.
Um, thank you Carla, for thatincredible insight into your
life and into writing, andespecially the really important
discussion of, you know, gettingkids to read and what we can do
to make books that they actuallywant to read.
It's really important.
So what's next for you?
What are you working on?
Carla Salmon (50:03):
Book two.
Book two, madly editing.
I will meet my deadline by theend of the month.
Surely, surely I'll.
Okay.
Um, yeah, so book two, um, draftis due in a couple of weeks.
Um, hence my children have theirpost-it notes out and are quite
brutal in nice, um, their, theirconstructive critique.
(50:25):
Mm-hmm.
Um, it's fantastic actually.
So, yeah, so just trying to getit to the best potential.
You know, polished version.
It can be, and then we'll seewhere it goes.
Mm-hmm.
See if the publisher actuallylikes it or not.
I'm sure they will.
It'll be incredible.
Thank you, Carla.
Thanks so much for your timetoday.
Thanks so much.
So, so much fun to chat to you.
Tina Strachan (50:48):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new apps drop and to keep
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This is the Book Deal podcast where
you will discover the inspiringstories, the authors behind your
favorite books.
No matter what sage of writingyou are at, we've got you
covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one
deal at a time.
Madeleine Cleary (00:29):
The book Deal Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters, which it's recorded
on and pays respect to theirelders past, present, and
emerging.
Tina Strachan (00:46):
Good morning, Carla Salmon and welcome to the
Book Deal podcast.
Thank you so much for having me,Tina.
I'm so excited.
Oh, it is our pleasure.
And congratulations on yourdebut, young adult novel.
We saw what you started.
Thank you.
It's, um, crazy to think it'sactually out in the world now.
Yeah.
It's such a long buildup, isn'tthere?
(01:06):
Um, but I'm gonna get into that.
I wanna ask you all about howlong that was.
Um, but I have lots of things toask you actually.
So I was just telling you aboutthe timeframe that we try and
put on our interviews, and oftenwe just.
We go over'cause there's so manythings and debut authors have so
much to, to give and to share,um, to our, for our listeners.
Um, but you know, you're anauthor and you're a teacher and
(01:28):
you have a career in marketing.
I do.
Uh, which we can tell from yourincredible promotional circuit
that you're currently on, um,and you're a mom.
And, uh, you have just publishedin a category that's quite, that
is very dear to my heart,actually.
Young adult and oh, but it'salso, yeah.
Incredibly hard to be publishedin.
(01:51):
Mm-hmm.
Uh, so I have lots of questionsabout all those things, so let's
see how we go try to fit thatin.
Love it.
So first off, color, um, can yougive us your one-liner and tell
of four, we saw what you startedand give us a little pitch.
Carla Salmon (02:09):
So we saw what you started is a mystery thriller
for 11 to 15 year olds set in asurf lifesaving club.
Tina Strachan (02:17):
That is, that sounds incredible.
And I live, you know, I live onthe Gold Coast, so I, so for me
it had like all the things thatYeah.
Felt really familiar.
Um, so yeah, that's reallyexciting.
Um, and a great one liner.
I think that's, um, yeah.
What would draw in lots of thekids, um, one liners are so
Carla Salmon (02:34):
hard.
I feel like I always need to putso much more into it, because
then I know I go on the spielfor the, you know, what it's
actually about with thecharacters.
But yeah, you do need to try andthink of something that.
Sums it up and, and is at theheart of the story, but is also
going to be a little bitdifferent and a little bit, um,
you know, something that's gonnagrab attention.
Tina Strachan (02:53):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Well, I think you've done a verygood job and you've done that,
but it is, it's, it's, it is askill to create a good
one-liner.
Um, so.
You know, we love debuts here onthe pod of which you are, and we
love a good old debut successstory and publication journey.
So can you take us on thatjourney?
Can you start from like when youactually started writing I sure
(03:17):
can to, yeah.
To when you actually signed thatelusive book deal.
Carla Salmon (03:21):
Yes.
So it's about two and a halfyears ago now from, I guess,
conception to the actual.
Book being on the shelves.
So it has been, um, a reallyamazing period of huge growth
and learning, and it's been veryexciting.
A lot of hard work, but it's thetype of work that, um, gives me
(03:42):
adrenaline and really fills mycup.
So it is, it has gone veryquickly.
But two and a half years ago, myson was 11 at the time, and he
started wanting books that feltolder.
He wanted Eder reads with, youknow, more particularly the
humor.
He felt he wanted something alittle bit more mature and he
also wanted stories that reallyreflected, I guess, his
(04:06):
friendship groups and the morecomplex relationships.
Within his own world and his ownlife.
Um, and some of thosechallenges, and I was quite open
for him to read up becauseobviously they're the
ingredients that usually arepart of a really wonderful young
adult fiction read that isusually targeted at slightly
older readers.
(04:26):
But even those books that I waswilling to, I guess, let him
dabble in, even though I was alittle bit nervous about some of
the themes and the language inthose texts, he just didn't
connect with them because Iguess his own experiences just
didn't ring true for him at thatyounger age, that late tween,
early teenage years.
So he started, um, I guesspushing back against reading,
(04:49):
which completely broke my heartbecause we worked so hard, um,
to try and get our kids.
To be in good reading habits,you know, from picture books
through beautiful junior fictionand then middle grade.
And then I do notice even atschool, kids are starting to, I
guess, get a little bit lost inknowing what to choose next.
And so it was a trend I wasnoticing at school as well as a
(05:10):
teacher.
And I, you know, never thoughtin a million years that I would
actually try and write somethingfor that group of kids until I
was, I guess, reflecting onwhere I was with my career as a
teacher.
I was acting head of year at thetime and really, really busy.
But when you're in a managementrole at school, I guess your
(05:32):
classroom time is reduced alittle, which is your creative
time is being in the classroom.
So I was looking for somethingelse that was just for me, just
pure joy and.
That creative, um, time to yeah,look at something a little bit
different.
And my cousin suggested, youknow, that I do something that's
a side hustle that I guesscompliments teaching, but is
(05:54):
going to, I guess, meet thatneed that I had personally.
And so yeah, over a couple ofmargaritas one afternoon, um, on
a rainy day in Harpy Bay duringthe holidays.
That's one of the best ideashappen.
The best.
It's the best.
She's actually printed a photofor me of the, of that day and,
and sent it through as my, as agift when I was published, so it
was so beautiful.
(06:15):
Anyway, um, but yeah, so thenshe's just suggested, you know,
what about writing?
And again, the actual noveldidn't really come into play
until I was driving home fromthat holiday a few days later.
And I thought, well, you know,if I was going to write a book,
what would it be?
Where would it be?
And you know, thinking of my sonand also my daughter at the time
(06:36):
who was 13 and really lovingmysteries.
Um, if I was to write that kindof book, where would I set it?
And for some reason, the RedSand Surf Lifesaving Club just
kind of popped into my head andI thought, well, I can't really
think of too many books or anybooks actually in young adult
fiction that is positioned as amystery in a surf lifesaving
(06:57):
club.
Maybe that's something that'sdifferent and it obviously is
open for boys and girls.
It's a sport that offers.
You know, a wide range ofparticipants, all ages, all
stages.
Maybe I can work with this.
And then from there, I, I guess,started trying to write a story
and I had no idea what I wasdoing.
And I remember, you know, takingmy, I think it was about 20 or
(07:18):
30,000 words, which I thoughtwas a book at that point, um,
into school and giving it to oneof my beautiful, trusted
teaching colleagues.
And said, you know, would youmind to have a read of this
draft?
You know, I don't know reallywhat I'm doing, but do you think
it would be okay?
And she's like, oh, you meanyour manuscript?
I'm like, what's the manuscript?
I don't know.
Isn't that what you do later?
(07:39):
But anyway, so, or even thelanguage of the industry, I had
no idea about, but she read itfor me and she was very kind
because I certainly can't rereadthat draft now because it's
dreadful.
It's truly dreadful.
Um, and the story has changed somuch.
Being the wonderful kind teachershe is with constructive
feedback, she said, yeah, look,I think there's something there.
I love the idea.
(08:00):
You should actually do somecourses and, and find out more
about it.
And that was when I firststarted finding this amazing
community, um, that we have inBrisbane, but also all
throughout Australia.
These, you know, this writingcommunity where authors are.
Available.
Um, and you can talk to them andyou can find out and go to their
(08:21):
launches and attend workshopvisits, um, and people offer to,
to read your work once you haveformed really wonderful
relationships.
So yeah, from there then I justgot completely addicted, um, to
learning as much as I could.
Going and, and chatting topeople.
And I guess it was probablyabout 12 months before I had an
(08:45):
actual manuscript that wassuitable for a young adult
pitch.
Um, and then it was anotherauthor who actually offered to
read it for me and she said.
I love it, but that incitingincident that's, oh, sorry.
The inciting incident is, is tooslow.
I think you should bring thereally big, um, event at the end
(09:06):
that's in the climax to the verybeginning of the book.
And I thought that's a wonderfulidea.
But I only had three days beforethe closing date for, for the
agent I really wanted to submitto Annabel Barker, um, actually
closed.
So I basically said goodbye tomy family, bunker down.
Rewrote the whole book, kind of,I guess, with unpicking and
(09:27):
retreading the threads andmanaged to get it into Annabel
and.
Sure, sure enough, um, a monthlater I heard back from her
saying that she would like torequest the full manuscript and
then of course it went fromthere.
So, oh my gosh, color.
Tina Strachan (09:42):
There's so many incredible things about that,
but I'm mortified about thethree days of pulling it apart.
I have to say holy smoke.
It was intense.
That's hard.
Yeah.
And it's not even just movingthe inside.
'cause a lot of people start thebook in the wrong spot.
Exactly.
Um, like a couple of chapterstoo early and so it's.
It's bringing forward, you know,you can get rid of a couple of
chapters at the beginning.
(10:02):
Um, I've actually even just donethat recently myself, but
they're still important.
You have to write them.
Yeah.
So don't be discouraged ifthat's what you've done, because
that's almost you getting it outon the page.
Right.
And, um.
And, and actually working outyour characters and your
setting.
So it's important, but you justgotta, you gotta kill those
darlings and just start off inthat action.
(10:23):
But I've never had to bringsomething right from the end to
the very beginning.
And that is, and of course whenyou do that, there's those
threads, like you said,unpacking and picking and, and
just the thought of, um, yeah.
Trying to follow those threadsthrough is, um.
Carla Salmon (10:40):
Yeah, heart very hard.
It's crazy.
So I hope I don't have to do itagain, but it was so worth it.
I mean, obviously I would do it10,000 times over to have that
opportunity, you know, to, forthe agent to read it and, and be
interested in it.
And of course then there was somuch work that was then done
with the publishers after that.
(11:00):
Um, but I think it's that wholeidea of if you get an
opportunity, you've just gottagrab it.
Um, and I guess that's.
Always been my mindset when Ifirst started, you've got
nothing to lose.
Mm-hmm.
It's, you know, it's, it's yourtime and everything's an
opportunity to learn more.
Just go for it.
Tina Strachan (11:17):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And, um, did, did they, sothere's a reason for this
question.
Did you find after you submittedand Anabel got back to you, did
you find some thread that hadn'tactually been like, picked up?
Carla Salmon (11:34):
Oh, definitely.
And look, yeah, the whole bookthen, you know, as we, as I
learned how to write a novelstill throughout that process,
um, was, was continuous right upuntil publication.
So Annabel then came back to mewith her suggestions, um, and we
(11:54):
workshopped a little bit furtherbefore we went actually out to
market.
And then once.
It was then signed with thepublisher and we started that,
um, that structural editingprocess.
There were significant threadsthat changed again throughout
those edits.
Um, the story was at the heartand soul of the story.
It was always consistent.
(12:15):
Mm-hmm.
Um, because I wanted that.
Edgy teen voice.
Mm-hmm.
Um, something that was, I guess,quintessentially Australian and
had those, those dual points ofview.
So those characters were alwaysquite solid.
But definitely we enhanced thecharacterization of.
Both, um, milli and Ottothroughout that editing process.
(12:37):
But in terms of the extracharacters and the mystery
itself, the person who was firstresponsible for, you know, for
the crimes in the initial editsis no longer even in the book.
Mm-hmm.
So we, um, we rewrote, I guess,the start and the finish
multiple times throughout theprocess.
Tina Strachan (12:56):
Yeah.
And I love that and it's reallyimportant.
It's really important and Iwanted to just chat about.
Because I think a lot of peopleput all this emphasis on being
absolutely 100% perfect withtheir manuscript.
And of course you have to makeit as polished as you could be.
You would have thought at theend of those three days that
(13:16):
everything was smooth.
You, because you're in such a,you such tunnel vision and
you've just looked at it somuch, you're not picking up
things anymore.
You a hundred percent need neweyes.
Um, and.
Things do still get picked,picked up and worked on with the
agent and the publisher.
And maybe it's, you know,timeline issues or, uh, making
(13:37):
sure the, that the threads, uh,all match up again because it's
been moved.
Or there's characters, like yousaid, that completely come out.
I don't even know how, how youstart with that or come, come
in.
Like I've heard people writecharacters in and, um, I think
that's important to, you know,kind of for people who.
Are just still tinkering.
(13:58):
Stop tinkering.
Carla Salmon (13:59):
Absolutely.
Tina Strachan (13:59):
Because like you said, it's the heart and the
soul, isn't it?
That they're looking for, theyhave read your work, they know
that you can write, um, but it'sthe heart and the soul of the
story that they're looking forand the message and.
Everything else creates thatpackage.
Um, there's multiple, I guess,points that they're looking for
and values that they're lookingfor.
Uh, they a hundred percentunderstand that you can fix a
(14:21):
character, you can fix a plot,you can flick, fix a timeline,
but everything else needs to bethere.
Um, yes, I agree.
Important.
Carla Salmon (14:29):
I totally agree.
And I think also, I guess what Ifocus on as well is the
characters being, um, as fleshedout as possible and as real as
possible.
Because I feel like it's a bitlike, you know that saying, you
know, you don't remember whatpeople, what someone did, but
you remember the way they, thatthey made you feel.
Yes.
It's a bit like that with books,I think, because we don't
(14:52):
necessarily remember exactly theplot beats or the moments in a
story, but we fall in love withthe characters so.
Whilst of course, you know, you,you might adapt them and, and
develop and deepen theircharacter arcs their
characteristics and who theyare.
If you can flesh that out asmuch as possible, then I totally
(15:12):
agree.
Then it's kind of like playingwith Barbie dolls, you know,
like you're back, you're back asa kid and you're just changing
the story of as to what thesecharacters are doing.
Mm-hmm.
Um.
I think that is also what, what,what publishers and agents are
looking for is, you know, havewe got really, have we got
characters here that will reallyconnect with people?
(15:33):
And you know, that's thefeedback that I'm receiving
through my, through my draftingprocess.
And now when the book's out onshelves is how much people can.
To those characters, and if theydon't, then that's a real
problem.
Tina Strachan (15:46):
Mm-hmm.
I a hundred percent agree withyou, and I remember thinking
this just recently.
I finished a book, it was agreat book.
I really enjoyed it.
I literally put it down and thenext day I was thinking about
it, which is a sign of a goodbook, right?
Yeah.
Could it tell you what a singlename of any of the characters
were?
Just like, you just gloss overthat.
But I remember how it made mefeel and I remember how it made
(16:07):
me think about it, and that'simportant.
But yeah, I couldn't.
Couldn't tell you now half thecharacters that I've read
because, and we spend so muchtime agonizing over names and
things, don't we?
No one cares.
Absolutely.
Carla Salmon (16:18):
No cares.
No, that's exactly right.
I mean, I'm sure they do allthat's more details.
Tina Strachan (16:23):
That's right.
Uh, that's amazing.
So, such an incredible story.
Um, and signing with AnnabelleBarker, who's amazing.
Oh, she's, that's, yeah.
She's like a, a dream agent.
Mm.
And can you tell us whathappened after that?
Carla Salmon (16:37):
I can.
Yeah.
So, um, so we, I signed withAnnabel and then yeah, we
workshopped the manuscript for alittle bit.
Um, and then, you know, you, youget that message from her that
says, okay, we're gonna send itout.
And, you know, it's the, I thinkthat was probably the most
exciting thing that has happenedso far, because it's that
(16:58):
initial, oh my goodness.
This is actually going to beread by these incredible people
in the publishing world.
Um, and it, it's happening.
And so I was incredibly nervousand that that actual process
then takes a few months.
Um, and so she sent it out to anumber of publishers.
(17:18):
I think three of them, um, cameback and said, look, it's just
not quite right for us.
But three did come back andsaid, yes, please.
We would, we would like to talkfurther.
Um, and they were incredible.
Names and just dream publishers.
And they were all spectacular.
And I then had meetings, zoomcalls with each of the
(17:38):
publishers, um, and they talkedto me about what they thought
the book could be and what Icould be for them as well and
where I would fit.
Um, and, you know, that wassurreal.
That was completely ridiculous.
I remember hanging up from thatcall, just going, you know, each
one going, sorry, is thisactually, is this actually real?
Um, it's the dream.
(17:59):
It was amazing.
And you know, I guess that isthe benefit of, of having
someone, um, who as an agent,able to negotiate and, and put
those opportunities in place.
Um.
Yeah, and you know, each, itwouldn't have mattered which
one, um, I went with in the end,like it, in terms of they all
had wonderful opportunities.
(18:21):
I ended up signing with PamMcMillan because the publisher I
met with there just really, Iguess, connected with me
personally, and I just feltlike.
They were gonna look after me asan author as well as with all of
my books, um, or hopefully moreof my books.
Um, and the idea initially forthe story was always that I
(18:46):
wanted to have it, um, specificfor I guess that young, those
young teens, early tweens,sorry, late tweens age group,
and.
In that group though, I want itto be as edgy as possible and to
really push it within thoseboundaries so that yes, parents
can give it to teenagers to readand allow them to read it.
(19:08):
Completely independently andfeel comfortable that the themes
and the language is ageappropriate.
And also for teacher librarians,I think we have to remember that
with teacher librarians workingin schools and we're, you know,
we're accountable to parents.
Um, it is tricky sometimesrecommending books that are.
You know, obvi for older, olderchildren to read.
(19:30):
Um, so I really wanted to offerthat because I, I, that was what
I was wanting for my own son atthe time and, and the students
at my school.
Um, but I also know that thesekids wanted something that felt
older.
And so that meant that I neededhelp to try and make this
probably quite, the story was alittle bit gentler at the
beginning, um, and.
(19:52):
Pam McMillan just said, I thinkwe can take this further.
We can make it grittier.
We can make it punchier andedgier and let's, you know, push
it right to the very edge thatwe can within this age group
that you want to write for.
And I just thought, yes.
That's, that's what I want.
That's exactly what I want.
Um, and delightfully that hasbeen the process all the way
(20:14):
along.
It is, it's been one of truecollaboration.
Um, all of my ideas, uh, takenreally seriously, right from,
you know, the writing stagethrough to the cover design,
through to, um, you know, thenotes that go in the back of the
book to the kids that we gotfor, you know, endorsements.
So at every point of the way.
(20:35):
Um, I felt like it's just beensuch an amazing teamwork, um,
situation, which I'm, I'm reallygrateful for.
Tina Strachan (20:43):
Mm-hmm.
Um, can I ask practically when,and for authors that are
listening who want to write someya or, um.
Some older middle grade andthere's that sort of crossover
isn't there in the middle.
Mm.
And making it grittier andpunchier.
What does that look like?
Like how can you make somethinggrittier and punchier?
Carla Salmon (21:03):
Mm.
I think it comes down to thelanguage that you are using when
you are speaking in thecharacter voice.
Um, so I chose to write in firstperson present tense, um,
because I also love books.
That are written in that, um, inthat style.
So I guess a Holly Jackson voiceminus some of the, the older,
(21:25):
more mature language and, um,some of the themes and, and
actions that happen in thosetypes of texts.
So I guess I was trying to.
Think about how I can uselanguage that is shorter
sentences, sharper sentences forboys particularly.
I think that's, and I really wasreally trying to listen to the
teens in my life, um, and toThat's right,
Tina Strachan (21:47):
bro.
A
Carla Salmon (21:48):
fair second sentence.
That's exactly right.
Well, I got in in trouble forthat.
Tina Strachan (21:52):
Yeah.
Well, yeah, that's another thingto touch on, not being too
slanging and not, and, and wordsthat can date.
Carla Salmon (21:59):
That's right.
And actually the teens don'twant that.
So it was my own son who said,oh my gosh, that is so cringe.
You like, that's what you soundlike.
I know I did.
I'm like, I'm just mirroringexactly what you talk, how you
say it.
Um, and, but I did need to beconscious of that.
So whilst they wanted to be areflection of how they speak,
they.
(22:19):
It actually can't be a truereflection.
So it's this really weird kindof fine line that you play in.
Um, and I think that's the wordthat I wanna focus on.
If we are writing for teens andtweens, you have to play, you
have to play with the words, andyou have to think, um, how can I
make this sound?
Fun and a little bit edgier andcooler with the way that I'm
(22:42):
mixing it up.
So I play with hyphens, like ahyphenate, bunches of words
together for the girls.
'cause you know, if we've, we'vegot young teen girls, they use
four or five adjectives in arow.
Um, or they string their, theirwords together.
They're not necessarily speakingin a really cohesive, fluent
pattern, so you can't write awhole sentence like that.
But throwing in a few of thoseevery now and again, I really, I
(23:05):
like to play with that.
Um, for the, and like I said,for the boys, shorter, sharper,
edgier, keeping it reallypractical.
And also removing some of thetechnical language.
So, you know, with when my son'sediting my book now, um, you
know, one of his, his quotesfrom the book two that he's
reading at the moment was, okay,enough with the environmental
(23:28):
facts, it's sounding tooeducational.
Tina Strachan (23:30):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
And so
Carla Salmon (23:30):
they see through it and they don't, because they
don't give each other.
You know, I guess factual adviceabout a setting.
Do they, they just aren't yet?
No.
Tina Strachan (23:41):
Do boys even talk to each other?
Carla Salmon (23:42):
Sometimes I wonder.
I don't know.
They just, and that's the thing,they're so quiet sometimes.
Sometimes it can be.
Um, and so trying to thread thatin instead to descriptive
sentences through thecharacter's eyes.
But again, even limiting that,so focusing as well on pace and
keeping that pace really niceand, um, tight, I think is, is a
(24:05):
real key point for writing for,um, young teens and tweens
because they, they will simplyput it down.
They, they used to, like,they're in a world where they,
if they don't like what they'rewatching, they swipe to the next
thing, or they flick thechannel.
They don't even have to watchfor, you know, the next Dawson's
Creek episode to drop in a week.
Do they like, they just.
(24:27):
Ads gonna switch it on toanother series, there's no ads.
Um, and so I think as writers,we need to be conscious of that
and aim to do everything we canto give them the opportunity to
keep turning the page.
Tanya Scott (24:43):
Hi listeners.
I'm Tanya Scott and my debutnovel Stillwater is out on the
29th of July with Alan and UnwinStillwater's a crime thriller.
It's about Luke, a young manwho's recently returned to his
home city of Melbourne afterseveral years running away from
his troubled early life and hischaotic father.
He's keeping a low profile, buthe's broke.
His car's dying and hisuniversity exams are hanging
(25:04):
over his head.
Luke's quiet.
Life is thrown into turmoil whenGus Alberici, the criminal he
worked for as a teenager, trackshim down and wants him back on
the job.
And Gus is not the kind of blokewho takes no for an answer.
Luke is roped into a hunt forhis estranged father who's
vanished, along with a chunk ofGus's cash.
In the meantime, Luke'snavigating a new relationship
(25:25):
with a flamboyant actor, andhe's pulled into her family
dysfunction while grappling withpeople and events from a past
he'd much rather leave behindhim and holding on tight to
secrets that just might get himkilled.
Stillwater's a story about areluctant criminal.
It's about not allowing yourpast to define you and about
learning to be the Stillwaterwhen the sea around you is
churning.
(25:46):
I hope you enjoy it.
Tina Strachan (25:52):
it's a real epidemic at the moment, isn't
it?
Um, reading amongst kids, butmostly boys is a real issue and
they drop out of that, like evenmiddle grade with just, they're
just dropping out of, and Iguess for listeners who aren't
aware, middle grade, so thedifference between.
Middle grade, and then there'sjunior fiction as well, which is
younger, but middle grade is,um, it can be eight or nine plus
(26:15):
usually, um, up to about 12characters, generally speaking.
And there's always, you know,uh, exceptions to the rule, but
generally speaking, uh,protagonists can't really, or
shouldn't really be teenagers.
So then 13 and up kind ofbecomes, um.
Young adult, yes, but thirteensstill quite young.
(26:36):
Um, but, so then young adult isteenage protagonists, but that
can be so wide and so varied aswell, you know, 13 through to,
you know, 19 even guess 19, 20.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the kids do like to read upand from all ages, from young
ages, like generally their cha,the characters are a couple of
years older.
So there's that real in betweenperiod where, you know, you have
(27:00):
11 and 12 year olds wanting toread up and then you just, their
only options are these, yasometimes just maybe a little
bit inappropriate or, or not.
They're not ready for it.
Like you were saying, it's, it'skind of a real gap.
Yeah.
Um, I've heard recently thatthe, the girls are reading up,
but not just like way up, likeout of ya.
(27:21):
They're reading like Col,Colleen Hoover and things like
that.
They're just really, um, whetheror not they're ready for it, I
don't, I don't know.
Or is it just they're so used,what they're seeing these days
and hearing and watching is sobeyond.
What we are used to them, so, sothey're so used to it and it's
not as.
(27:41):
Kind of shocking or for them andyeah, reading up and I, and I
can only imagine what's I, Idon't meet Colleen Hoover, but I
can only imagine there's a lotof romance in
Carla Salmon (27:51):
those ones, right?
I think so, yeah.
And I think, I think sometimesin middle grade, the moral of
the story.
Um, can be really clear.
Mm-hmm.
And if you've got a more maturekid, they, they don't, they,
they really don't wanna be toldwhat to do or, and they don't
want to be feeling like a parentor a teacher is speaking to them
(28:12):
through the character voices.
Um, and, you know, there'swonderful, wonderful middle
grade.
I'm such a huge advocate formiddle grade, um, who, which
doesn't do that.
And they do it really well.
Of course.
I mean, your own books Tina are,are fantastic.
Um, but it is a fine line,right?
Because.
You want it to be somewhatwholesome and to have a lesson
that is.
(28:34):
Um, at the end of it that kidscan take away, because that's
the whole point of books, right?
We wanna build empathy and offersomething that makes'em a
slightly better human in somesort of way, especially in those
younger years.
And for some of those kids whoare reading middle grade, uh,
younger as well, and they'rewanting those beautiful,
gentler, um, and, you know, funreads.
(28:56):
So it's tricky when you get akid who's.
Old enough to read or a verygood reader to read up, but not,
you know, they see throughsometimes the morals and those
types of things, but they'redefinitely not ready for that
high level complex, um, maturethemes in the older YA and, and
in just normal fiction as well,of course.
Tina Strachan (29:18):
Yeah, it's really tricky and I have heard an agent
say before, you know, a, a kidcan smell a parent or an adult
from a mile away.
So if you make any of your wordsset, like they don't want a mom
coming through to them whilethey, while they're reading.
Um, so that's really importanttoo, just.
Yeah, absolutely.
In young adult, definitely.
(29:38):
Um, making sure that thatdoesn't shine through, but like
you said, yeah, middle gradethere, I think, I mean, I'm not
an expert on the genre, but I,yeah, I think most of the time
it's expected that there's alittle bit of a learning, a
little bit of a message at theend, but absolutely.
Still you can't make it.
Feel like they're being Howexplicit?
Yeah.
Educated.
(29:58):
Uh, definitely.
Yeah.
You have to hide it.
Carla Salmon (30:00):
Well, they're wanting to read for, we we're
wanting them to read for fun andfor pleasure, right?
Mm-hmm.
So I guess in that time, they'renot in a, an educational mindset
that they're willing to take in,um, I guess the life lessons
necessarily.
Um, certainly explicitly.
So yeah.
We, we need to thread it throughwith invisible thread.
Yes.
Yes,
Tina Strachan (30:21):
that's right.
So, uh, like I said, ya is, um,very close to my heart.
I love reading it and I lovewriting it as well.
Um, but it is, uh, hard to, toget across the line.
Multiple publishers and agentsjust say, it's just really
tricky.
Um, did you get any, sorry,could you.
(30:41):
Just tell us a little bit aboutyour journey with that and any
thoughts on the market and haveyou had any, you know,
conversations with, you know,publishers and agents, um, that
can offer some advice to peoplewho do love to write ya and r
writing ya and trying to gettheir ya across the line.
And, you know, I've, I knowpeople who've been told, just
age it down.
Just make all the characters,age them down.
(31:03):
Get rid of any romance.
'cause also romance is not, issomething that's.
Not usually in middle grade.
Um, and just age it down or ageit up.
Just make them adults and.
So there's again, this gap.
Um, any advice or thoughts onthat?
Carla Salmon (31:22):
Yeah.
Yes, and I was, um, encouragedby the one publisher to
potentially age it down as well.
So I did receive that and I tookit seriously because I
understand.
Um, it's partly, I think, to dowith.
The reach to schools, so weknow, which is an absolute
tragedy, that schools, um, andall librarians in schools are
(31:43):
becoming fewer and fewer.
So, you know, not, there's somany high schools now that don't
actually have teacherlibrarians, um, which, you know,
breaks my heart completely.
But it's a reality and hopefullywe can change that as a society.
And we've got wonderfulorganizations fighting really
hard to make sure that there arelibrarians still in every single
(32:06):
school because you know, we knowthe stats on reading and we know
how in absolutely crucial it isfor every part of literacy, but
also as a space for a communityand just to offer.
So many wonderful things.
So we know all about that.
But as well, the majority ofteacher librarians are in
primary schools.
So if we are aiming to, um, froma marketing perspective, try and
(32:30):
reach, um, our books intoschools and to have that, um, I
guess that market be accessibleas widely as possible.
I understand that publishers aresaying, well, yeah, we've still
got that, that in, um, at thatprimary school age.
And also parents are stillbuying books a lot for children
in that younger age categorybecause the kids are still
(32:53):
reading, I guess, at that, atthat.
At that age group, once kidstend to get their first phone,
they're catching the bus home,they're involved in a whole
bunch of co-curricular, um, youknow, parents themselves are
really, really busy withteenagers.
I, myself, as a parent,definitely don't, um, I guess,
(33:13):
hassle my kids as much to tryand designate that reading time.
And that's as an author and anEnglish teacher.
So, so it's, it's reallychallenging, I think.
And so I, I understand whynumbers tend to drop off a
little bit in that, you know,older, older tween, young teen
age group.
Because books are competing withso many things.
(33:35):
Uh, in saying that though,that's why I think it's
absolutely crucial that anybooks that we do put in the
hands of those young teens, ithas to ring true for them and it
has to hit home and it has tograb them so that they, we start
getting that really positiveexperience again then, and then
of course the demand increases.
Mm-hmm.
(33:55):
Um, so yeah, I think if you areaiming to write.
If you've got a beautiful yathat you're really passionate
about, thinking about, well whatis, what is the market in beyond
just your own?
I guess publishing world, howcan you make connections beyond
who you know within the writingcommunity?
(34:17):
So for example, I've looked toinfluencers, teen influencers,
and who can I reach and who canI team up with, um, who are
creative types.
And who have got, you know,fabulous followings as well who
are working with parents.
Um, and that's been a really bigpositive because all of a sudden
you've got people who wouldn'tnormally follow authors, for
(34:37):
example, on different varioussocial media platforms.
They're becoming aware and mostkids don't know that you can go
and see an author present at alaunch or that they are, that,
that, you know, our bookstoresand our libraries are doing all
of these fantastic events.
They actually don't know aboutit.
Especially if they don't have alibrarian in their school
(34:58):
promoting these things.
Um, so yeah, I think thinkingcreatively about how you can
come up with a plan to reachpeople.
Um, I did talk about that when,um, you know, during the
process, um, when, when theauction was happening and who I
was actually going to, to gowith about how to reach people
(35:18):
beyond.
I guess what the norm is, um, totry and maximize all the
connections that we had betweenus.
So I think, yeah, if we canthink ourselves, who else is out
there that can draw kids backinto making reading cool and
fun, let's connect and let'swork with these people and the
(35:38):
influencers who are in thesekids' world.
Tina Strachan (35:41):
Yeah, because they play such a big role for
them, don't they?
That's where they're gettingthese words from and, um, all
the things that they're askingto do and have and buy is all.
Coming from that whole differenttype of marketing that we were
ever brought up with.
Um, though I do think for girlsit's a bit easier because it's a
bit more accepted and they, youknow, they love a good sort of
(36:02):
book talk sort of situation andbook influencers, especially if
you write romantic or Yeah.
Um, fantasy for young adults,that seems to still be going
pretty strong.
Absolutely.
But yeah, it is about marketingand trying to find those
different ways of.
Getting your book into people'shands, like you said.
Now, can you please share someadvice for.
(36:25):
Those of us who don't, whoaren't, don't have marketing
backgrounds, uh, because it'salways something that's
discussed a lot between thedebut crew.
Uh, you know, how, what do I doto, to help get my book out
there?
Because a lot of, um, debut or alot of aspiring authors don't
realize that, um.
Your publishers do a lot to do alot for you as an author and,
(36:48):
you know, get your book on theshelves, which is the most
important thing.
But when it comes to publicityand promotion and marketing,
it's um, different foreverybody.
And probably the one thing thatis, um.
You know, the same for everybodyis that you do have to put in an
effort yourself, and there arethings that you can do.
Um, can you help us with thatcolor because you've been
(37:10):
everywhere and doing lots ofthings.
And, um, yeah, a, a really goodexample of how to yeah.
Use your connections and yournetwork and, um, and get your
book out there.
So what practical tips andadvice do you have for us?
Carla Salmon (37:25):
Yes, I think, um, my background is public
relations and marketing.
So before I was a teacher, thatwas my life for 10 years.
And so for me, it kind of justmade sense immediately that if
I'm going to write a book andI'm gonna dedicate all of these
hours.
Into creating a product.
'cause that's essentially whatit is then.
(37:46):
Well, of course it's a business,right?
And you have to be reallyconscious of that and own it as
a business from the beginning.
Um, imposter syndrome is rifeand I don't think any of us ever
escape that.
And I don't know if we ever, itdoesn't matter how successful
you are.
I speak to other authors all thetime and they still feel like
imposters because it is apersonal reflection of.
(38:07):
Your own work.
It's such a, it is such apersonal thing, but it's also a
product.
Um, and you as an author are aproduct potentially, especially
if you're writing for childrenbecause you are offering your
services to go and visit schoolsand, um, potentially be as, be a
speaker and.
Offer those visits.
So I was very conscious rightfrom the beginning about setting
(38:31):
up my platforms before I eventhought about going to an agent,
um, to make sure that I hadthose bases established, that I
would come across as theprofessional business owner
that.
I want it to be.
Um, and I think we, yeah, weneed to be really confident of
that as creatives, and you cando it yourself.
(38:54):
So I have actually, um, built myown website on Squarespace.
Now, I'm not a tech person atall.
Um, but there's, you will knowsomeone in your life who can
help you through developing thebasics of a website, thinking
about every single.
Image on that website and thefont and all of those elements,
(39:15):
they all have to contribute tothe feeling that you want your
readers to feel when you arereading the book.
Um, so for me, my book, I hopeat the end of it when people
have read it, is that it's beena, an escapist read.
It's, it's a fun place.
It's set in this Instagramworthy, um, location.
It's.
Coastal and beachy, and thoseare the vibes.
(39:36):
And so those are the vibes thatI try to put into my Instagram
and into LinkedIn and also ontomy website.
And if you're going to be, Iguess, writing in a positive
way, thinking about yourlanguage when you're
communicating on those platformsas well.
Um, and so I think it's, yeah,thinking really holistically
(39:56):
about.
Who you want to be as an author,and of course it can and change,
but at the beginning when you.
Proposing that you're gonna teamup with a publisher and an agent
who, who is also, um, abusiness, then what can you
contribute in the way that makeslife as easy as possible for
them?
(40:16):
So yeah, building those bridges,um, right from the beginning
also.
Following and connecting withpeople through social media.
It is absolutely crucial thatit's a mutually beneficial
relationship.
So it can't be fake.
It has to be authentic, and itshould be because otherwise it'd
be really unpleasant.
Mm.
Um, but you know, if you areconnecting and supporting
(40:37):
people, that's actually whatmakes it really fun as well.
And some of my greatestconnections are a result of a
year's worth of me just beinggenuinely.
Interested and excited andcelebrating other people's
successes.
Um, and again, like that's,that's all so much fun that
that's the easy part of the job.
But it, it's also, I've foundnow kind of accidentally, I
(41:00):
guess by this point is that,that that comes back around, um.
If you can be active in lookingat people you're following,
manage your Instagram and, andyour social media really, really
carefully.
Um, but yeah, being aware thateverything that you post is part
of your business brand.
So what do you want kids to knowyou as?
(41:21):
What do you want teachers toknow you as?
Um, what do you want parents andbooksellers.
So it's beyond just, I guess,the book as a product.
Um, I'm not sure if that'sactually what you're meant to
say as a creative because it's,it's meant to be all about the
book right from the beginning.
Right.
And it is, but, but if you wantit to, to be, that's really good
advice.
Yeah.
Tina Strachan (41:41):
Yeah, it's really good advice and I love how you
say to treat it like a businessand it's, I think it's so true
that you don't, you know, wecreated this product, which is
our book, and anybody who, and,and I've, we always say multiple
times on the pod that you knowwhen it is, when you do start a
business, it's many years untilyou actually make some money
back out of it as well.
(42:02):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So, you know, so there's lots ofthings that's, you know.
Um, comparing, sort of creatinga product, say that sits on a
shelf in a, in Woolies, so afood product, um, you wouldn't
do that.
You wouldn't create thisproduct.
Then just not send it outanywhere or get advice on it or
(42:25):
get feedback on it.
And when you're approaching apublisher or an agent, they're,
you're actually looking to themas like your investors, I guess,
totally.
In your product that you'reputting on the shelf.
And so when you said aboutpresenting, like someone who.
Running a business, a, a, areputable business, and you're
taking it very seriously, thenyou need to present like that
(42:48):
with your website and yoursocial media and all those
things.
It re like, it really is, lookat it like you're starting a
business and you're a businessowner.
I love, I love that.
Yeah,
Carla Salmon (42:58):
I mean, we certainly know some authors who
have just had so much successand haven't worried about the
social media and, and I guessthat el those other elements.
Um, and that can certainlyhappen.
So it's not a one size fits all,that's for sure.
And it, it, I think it also, youhave to be interested in it.
Um, and so I really, I reallyenjoy.
(43:18):
The connections that I haveonline.
Um, and I love putting togetherthe website and those elements,
so that's fun.
Um, if you really, really don'tenjoy that, then you don't have
to focus as much energy on it.
But I still think it's good tohave a nice polished platform as
a starting base.
Mm-hmm.
And then see where I guess yourtime is best spent.
Tina Strachan (43:38):
Yeah.
I think it just shows that youare serious about it, doesn't
it, by having all these othertouch points that you can refer
back to.
But yeah.
Again, it all comes back tohaving a solid book and a solid
story, um, in the first place,which, you know, overrides any
of those sorts of things andauthors would prefer that than
you having a sparkly website,but Oh, for sure.
Yeah, and it's certainlyhelpful.
(43:58):
Sorry.
Yeah, it's certainly helpfulwhen, um, I.
It's, you know, especially forcategories like ya, where it's
very hard to, you know, to, tobe published and to be picked
up.
And sometimes, you know, whenthere's a, um, you know,
publishers are getting so manymanuscripts submitted to them
every week, every little bitcan't hurt.
Carla Salmon (44:19):
That, that was my thought as well.
Like if I, and I guess that'sprobably my philosophy with all
of this throughout the journey,which sometimes becomes, um, I
guess, detrimental to my sleepand, and all of those elements.
But, um, doing everything Ipossibly can to open as many
doors as possible, um, hasalways been the way I've played
(44:39):
it.
So, you know, and, and because Ialso enjoy it, so, you know,
going to events.
Talking to people, pushingyourself outside your comfort
zone when you walk into a roomfull of complete strangers as,
as a like, feeling massiveimposter syndrome.
Mm-hmm.
Because you didn't know thedifference between a draft and a
manuscript, um, when you firstinitially make those contacts.
(44:59):
But if you can do that.
Um, it certainly does come backaround in a really positive way,
but you're absolutely right.
It's got to come back, back tothe product that you make, that
you should be really proud of.
And again, you know, we tell ourown kids and students at school
the time, be really proud ofyour work and, and celebrate it.
(45:19):
Um, but you know, as adultswe're so conscious of it, of
course, thinking, oh my gosh,what if it's rubbish?
And what if.
What if it's not good enough?
Um, that sometimes we're alittle bit shy to actually put
it out there and say, Hey, youknow, this is a collaborative
opportunity.
You know, should we pair up?
And what, what can we do to worktogether?
Um, and I think we need to, toget better at trying to put
(45:42):
ourselves out there.
I've, I'm the worst.
I'm still, you know, I stillshutter every time someone says,
oh, I've just read your book.
And I go, oh gosh.
That's right.
That's the whole reading bit.
That's, it's all, it's all welland good to create this.
Fun.
You know, this fun opportunity,but it's actually out in the
world.
Yeah, it's okay.
Yep.
You've gotta read it.
Yeah.
Um.
We, we do have to just grab itand hold onto it and, and be
(46:05):
proud of it and try andcelebrate it as best as we
possibly can.
Yeah,
Tina Strachan (46:09):
I agree.
That's good.
Good points.
But you know, it is timeconsuming though as well, and
especially when you're a parentwith kids.
Like some, sometimes things justhave to give and sometimes it is
that whole social media and um,you know, creating that sort of
business side of it.
So.
Um, this is for anyone who'slistening.
This is, you know, yourpermission to, to just let it
(46:31):
drop sometimes, because you do.
It is a con.
It's just another thing that youdo think about.
And, and I have the amount ofvideos or photos that I have on
my phone where I've gone, oh,that would look, that would look
good for a post.
Or, um, you know, I've madevideos that I really wanna post,
but, you know, it takes time toedit and put in.
And um, post, and I justsometimes, you know, as a
(46:52):
parent, your time is so, and aworking, you know, writer also
have another job also, you know,have kids that are, have a
thousand sporting commitments.
Exactly.
Um, youre, your day is reallyblocked out every second of the
day.
Sometimes you have to say toyourself, well, what's best use
of my time right now?
Is it editing this video?
Is it actually working on mynext manuscript?
(47:13):
You know, is this video takingout time from.
Actually doing, progressing mycareer as a writer and Exactly.
So, yeah, sometimes you justhave to let these things go
because, you know, an Instagrampost is fleeting.
Um, but the most important thingis getting your words down in
the
Carla Salmon (47:29):
end.
Oh, I, I agree.
And I think also being aware of,once you've got your platforms
established, it's all well andgood.
You've gotta keep that machinebeing fed to a certain extent,
but.
It's the same people.
So how can you then look toconnect with people beyond your
current group and can you useyour time strategically to
(47:50):
develop those new connections?
Um, so for example, Instagram'sgreat, um, but LinkedIn is
actually the place where so manywonderful teacher librarians are
present.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I found some fabulousconnections there and I don't
post a lot on LinkedIn.
But I certainly, when I do, um,I've developed some, some
wonderful connections there, andthat's something that I would
(48:11):
never have worried about.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but yeah, I totally agreewith you.
I think it's, it's really easyto get it to fall into that trap
of thinking, oh, I've gotta, youknow, gotta put it on.
I've gotta put it up, you know,I haven't posted today.
Mm-hmm.
What are you doing again fromthat strategic business
perspective, and can youschedule time?
That you are doing that andtrying not to just get that
(48:32):
dopamine hit to see, you know,how many people have actually
liked a really cute, funny videothat you put up.
Tina Strachan (48:38):
You do.
It is, it's hard.
And it is a dopamine hit, isn'tit?
Oh, well, Carla, that is suchgreat advice, and I'm sure
everybody who's listening willtake away lots of great, you
know, tips from this.
But what is your number oneoverall top tip for debut
writers or for aspiring authors?
Carla Salmon (48:57):
My number one tip definitely is to try and have as
many face-to-face meetings asyou can with people in the
industry.
So talk to people, you know, goto their launches, um, go to
these wonderful events that areoffered all the time, and.
And even if you find itexhausting from that emotional
(49:19):
perspective, which it can be,that's the part that fills your
cup.
Um, because you know, it'sthose, those real human
interactions and connectionsthat is at the heart of
storytelling.
So, yeah, don't be shy.
Everyone is so inviting and sogenerous, um, and you just never
(49:39):
know who you're gonna meet whenyou go to these events.
Tina Strachan (49:42):
Hmm.
It's very true.
Very true.
Um, thank you Carla, for thatincredible insight into your
life and into writing, andespecially the really important
discussion of, you know, gettingkids to read and what we can do
to make books that they actuallywant to read.
It's really important.
So what's next for you?
What are you working on?
Carla Salmon (50:03):
Book two.
Book two, madly editing.
I will meet my deadline by theend of the month.
Surely, surely I'll.
Okay.
Um, yeah, so book two, um, draftis due in a couple of weeks.
Um, hence my children have theirpost-it notes out and are quite
brutal in nice, um, their, theirconstructive critique.
(50:25):
Mm-hmm.
Um, it's fantastic actually.
So, yeah, so just trying to getit to the best potential.
You know, polished version.
It can be, and then we'll seewhere it goes.
Mm-hmm.
See if the publisher actuallylikes it or not.
I'm sure they will.
It'll be incredible.
Thank you, Carla.
Thanks so much for your timetoday.
Thanks so much.
So, so much fun to chat to you.
Tina Strachan (50:48):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new apps drop and to keep
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Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.