Debut Panel: Emma Pignatiello, Kate Horan and Marion Taffe on book deals, writing tips and launch feelings

Episode Transcript
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Madeleine Cleary (00:09):
This is the Book Deal Podcast, where you
will discover the inspiringstories of the authors behind
your favorite books.
No matter what stage of writingyou're at, we've got you
covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors,
one deal at a time.

(00:29):
The Book Deal Podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners of the land and waterswhich it's recorded on.
And pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging.
Hi, it's Madeleine here.
If you've been listening to thepodcast for a while, you
would've heard Tina and Imention our wonderful debut
crew.
Essentially, it's a supportgroup for brand new authors.

(00:52):
As we navigate the world ofpublishing together, have you
ever wondered what we mightdiscuss?
Well, in this episode, you'reabout to find out.
I had the great pleasure ofspeaking with three wonderful
debut authors, Kate Horan, EmmaPignatiello, and Marion Taffe.
Kate has a background incorporate communications and was
a former English and dramateacher.

(01:12):
Emma, who is a current teacher,has a long line of emerging
writing accolades, winning CYAand the Veruna Affirm Press
Mentorship Award.
And Marion was a formerjournalist and spent her teen
years in her family's historicBallarat home, which was open to
the public.
Between them, they are coveringshocking DNA test results,
murder plots in wineries, and a10th century poetess.

(01:35):
At the time of recording, Kateand Emma's books are out on the
shelves, and Marion and I arewaiting closely in the wings, so
this made for an interestingchat.
And if you enjoyed this panelstyle chat, write us a review or
get in touch, because we mightdo some more.
Kate Horan.
You've been the first ofeverything this year for our
debut crew in 2025 with yourbook, The Inheritance coming out

(01:59):
on the 1st of January this year.
So I'm actually not going tostart with you.
Oh, okay.
I'll sit back and relax.
I feel like you've been our Youknow, first of everything this
year.
So you can sit back and relax.
I'm going to introduce firstly,so Marianne Taffe, whose book
comes out in about a monthrecording.
So it should be out in a coupleof weeks.

(02:20):
So Marianne, can you give us thehook of your beautiful
historical fiction novel, By HerHand?

Marion Taffe (02:25):
I would love to Madeleine and hello everyone.
Uh, so my novel, yes, comes outon the 5th of March and it's
called By Her Hand and it'sabout a girl called Frida.
And after barely surviving aViking raid, Frida is taken to
an abbey where she finds apassion for the written word.
And inspired by the fearsomeruler Lady Aethelflaed, Frida

(02:48):
writes her courage and rage intoa poem.
This poem has the power to forgea kingdom, but it also has the
power to destroy everythingFrida holds dear.

Beautiful.
That's a lovely pitch, and I'msure you're going to get used to
practicing that over the nextfew weeks as well, Marion.
Um, I'm so glad that youpronounced lady, can you say
that again?
Athelflad.
Athelflad.

Athelflad.
So her name is spelt with an oldletter called an ash, which is
the A and the E smooshedtogether.
And I love it.
I just You know, have myfavorite letter.
Um, and it makes a kind of soundthat's a little, probably the
closest to like the A in Apple.
It's like a bit of an AEbasically.
I mean, we still use it in wordslike pediatrician, encyclopedia,

(03:36):
but, um, it's got a slightlydifferent sound.
So it's sort of like an A, soit's Athelflad.

Now you don't have a background, an academic
background, do you, in OldEnglish?
Or is this something, how do yougo from learning these things?
Cause it's not something wecommonly learn.

It's crazy, isn't it?
Um, it's just become a bit of anobsession, but I think it's
just, I have always really lovedhistory and I've grown up in
history.
So I grew up in an old house inBallarat that was open to the
public and it's just full ofhistory.
Um, it's been in my family forover a hundred years and my

(04:15):
dad's a historian and I justgrew up.
you know, looking at hispictures of the Book of Kells
and, um, and just.
fascinated by royalty and thechurch history and religious
history, um, and Europeanhistory.
I'll just, I just love history.
So, um, I, I really got into itthat way.

(04:36):
I think it's more throughinterest.
Uh, and I never even thought ofstudying history, but, um, I've
just always loved it.
I love historical fiction,movies, TV, and, um, And this
became my favorite period and I,um, and yeah, so I started
writing the book and I, I had asort of.

(04:59):
an interest in the periodalready, but when I started
writing the book, um, I reallydived into it, um, and found out
how much I didn't know.
I thought I knew a fair bit whenI started, but, um, I knew
nothing.

And, um, in the novel, so Frida, um, who's
this wonderful.
Um, woman who's, um, wants tosee her name on a page in a hand
of her own making.
Is that something that you'vealways wanted to do, Marion, see
your name on a page?
Oh, it's so funny.
No,

I am not one of these writers who always wanted
to be a writer.
So, um, and I was lucky becauseI, I fell into writing.
I became a journalist in myearly twenties.
Sort of by accident.
Um, I was rowing at the time andI, I did some rowing reports for
the local paper and they offeredme a job reporting on sport and

(05:54):
it went from there.
So, um, I saw my name in print.
Then early on and, uh, andprobably took it a little bit
for granted.
People would say, wow, you'vegot a byline.
I'd say, of course I've got abyline.
I wrote this story.
And, um, so it sort of went fromthere, but I did not even
entertain the idea of writing abook until, uh, Fairly recently

(06:20):
actually probably in the past 10years.
I started to think I might liketo have a go at this Yeah,

well, we're glad you have my own Readers
particularly of historicalfiction, but all readers are
just going to love this bookI've had the privilege to read
an early copy.
So Thank you for getting intowriting Emma Pignatiello Hello
Hello.
You are a fan of our podcast.
I know

Emma Pignatiello (06:46):
I am.
I'm obsessed with you guys.
I listen every week.
And now you've let me on.
We are

so, so excited to have you on Emma.
Um, you've been part of our crewfor a while now, and we've been
so excited to watch yourjourney.
Um, you don't, you not only haveone book, but two books coming
out this year.
Is that right?

That's right.
Yes.
Actually the second one's comingout in April.
So yes.
Oh my goodness.
I don't know how you

do it.
Do you want to give us the pitchof your book, Last Shot?

Sure.
So Last Shot.
is an enemies to lovers romanticsuspense novel.
It's set in a fictional town inthe Margaret River region over
here in WA, and the premise isthat someone is going to murder
millionaire wine mogul GiovanniBarberani tomorrow night, and
the only two people who can stopthe murder from happening are ex

(07:36):
con Maxella Conrad and theBarberani's loyal fixer.
Greyson Hawke.
That is if they don't kill eachother first.

I love this premise.
It's such a fantastic premise.
Um, and I messaged you today,today, because, um, I was
driving back from my physioappointment and it was quite a
long drive.
So I like to listen to, or I'mlistening to Last Shot on audio
at the moment.
And, um, there was the, and I'mnot going to explain, I won't
spoil it.
But I'm just going to call itthe mudroom scene.

(08:07):
So for those.
Chapter 31.
Chapter 31.
It's not going to live up to

the hype now.

But that was my companion on my way back from
physio and I was like blushingand laughing and giggling and
people looking in, I think, atthe traffic lights and being
like, what is she listening to?
And then I had to log on towork.
That was really hard.
It's

a good, good, um, scene to get you in the
mindset for work.
Right.

So, um, now I read Emma that you wanted to
write Last Shot because youfound that there weren't enough.
Murders happening in romancenovels, is that right?

In a very, uh, yes, in a very short way.
It was kind of, normally I getideas for a story and it comes
from usually like threedifferent things.
And it's more, it's usually likea better, a better story behind
the story.
But for Last Shot, it reallywas, I was a bit burnt out with
what I'd been writing.

(09:12):
I'd been writing YA fantasy andI was sort of in the middle of
this.
fifth draft of this crime novelthat I was trying to write.
It wasn't quite working.
I think it was.
And now that I look back, itwasn't me.
I don't know.
There was something not right.
And I was looking at my enormous2B red pile on my bed.

(09:33):
And there was romance books andcrime books and I was just, I
just didn't feel like in themood for either or.
But I was starting to realizethe thing that was tying a lot
of my manuscripts together andthat what I really liked to
write was often the like thebanter between the two love
interests and the the romanceside of it.
And I never thought of myself asa Romance writer, but I was

(09:53):
doing a course with theAustralian Writer Centre.
Um, and it was all about romanceand it all sort of just so that,
yeah, the genre all came to mebefore, I guess, the characters
did, which has never happenedbefore.

You've got a few manuscripts in your bottom
drawer.
Bottom drawer,

yes.
Um, last shot was Fifth Timesthe Charm.
For me, it was the fifthmanuscript.
Yeah.
And had

you, what, what, what did you do with the
others?

So, the first one was a, basically I started
writing it in high school, um,so it was a complete
amalgamation of like VampireAcademy and Twilight and, you
know, all those kind of urbanfantasy.
I think

all of us have kind of, well, I mean, I've
attempted one of those as well,like in my teen years.
So

I loved it, but yeah, it was, and I sort of
finished that.
Um, in 2019, when I decided totake writing more seriously, the
second one, I had a little bitmore success with, um, I got a
mentorship with a firm press atVeruna, um, which was just
amazing.
And that was like, it was one ofthe best, you know, experiences.
I've ever had, not just writing.

(10:56):
Um, that one, yeah, it didn't,it still needed a bit of work.
I wrote a third one, which Ididn't do anything with.
Um, and the fourth one I did, Idid try, um, to sort of, I
didn't, I don't think Isubmitted it to any publishers.
I did submit it to a fewcompetitions.
Um, and I did.
some assessments at the CYAconference, um, just to sort of

(11:18):
get a bit of a, a gauge as toif, if it was going down the
right track.
So I had, I was working on thatone, um, when I wrote Last Shot.
So it, Last Shot, yeah, it wasthe fifth one, um, and yeah.
The, the one I eventually got ayes with.
Did you go through many

rejections with Last Shot, or was it smooth
sailing?
Um,

no, it's, it's, no, it was, the first
person I showed it to was my nowagent, Danielle Binks.
Um, and when we went out onsubmission, so she submitted it
to, I think, eight publishers.
I did get, like, some rejectionsin that process.
Um, and then we had sort ofthree publishers who were
interested.

(11:58):
Um, but yeah, so there wasdefinitely rejections in the, in
the submissions, but in terms ofthat manuscript, it was, it was
far more smooth sailing than theother ones had been.

I guess that shows though, like, so here you
are, you've got, you're ontoyour fifth manuscript.
That, I mean, none of, they'renot, they're not.
Oh no, not at all.
I

had to learn, yeah, they were my training
wheels, I think.
And I think I definitely, Istill love all of them except
the first one.
No one's ever going to see that.
Apparently vampires are

back though, so.
They are,

they are.
This was witches though, so itwas.
Witches are very in.
It's terrible.
The others though, I do, um,especially, um, They're quite
romanticy.
Romanticy wasn't a thing when Iwas writing them, but they are,
they are romanticy.
So I'm definitely going to dosomething with those two.
Um, but the crime novel, Ithink.

Okay.
I'm looking forward to yourfuture romanticy books.
This is going to be great.
Kate, do you have anymanuscripts hidden in your

Kate Horan (13:01):
bottom drawer?
Well, I actually, speaking ofmanuscripts, I submitted my
second book on Friday.
Oh

my

Kate Horan (13:08):
gosh! How did you do that?
You've launched

a book and submitted a second one?
That's amazing.
I

Kate Horan (13:15):
have, yes, but I'm on quite a deadline because of
um, how short the time frameswere from when I signed my book
deal to when my first book cameout.
Because I got a two book deal,my second Deadline is actually
only, you know, um, five monthsaway.
So yes, I know I can see yourfaces.
I know podcasting is not avisual medium, so this won't be

(13:38):
able to appreciate that, buteveryone just made a sort of
pulled a funny face when I saidthat I only have five months
until that deadline.
But the good news is I'vesubmitted that.
So, you know, hopefully,hopefully she reads it and she
loves it.
And But, you know, she mightcome back with some feedback
and, and, you know, I might doanother little rewrite here or

(14:01):
there, but anyway, goodprogress.

Huge.
Okay.
Well, Kate, let's talk aboutyour first book first though.
Do you want to give us the pitchfor The Inheritance?

Kate Horan (14:12):
Yeah, sure.
So the inheritance is about twowomen and a dark secret that
connects them.
29 year old journalist MegHunter arrives in the exclusive
town of Hartwell to investigatesuspected corruption by Ashworth
property.
She's also seeking answers tothe mystery surrounding why her
mother fled the town 30 yearsbefore, leaving them with no
family at all.

(14:33):
Meanwhile, 30 year old heiressIsabel Ashworth is sent to
Hartwell by her mogul father torescue a controversial Um,
development of a historic jailand to prove her commitment to
the family business.
When she's there, her pathcrosses with Meg's and the
carefully guarded secrets of thepast start to unravel with the
help of three DNA test kits,which mysteriously appear under

(14:56):
the Ashworth's Family Christmastree addressed to the three
adult siblings, and nobody knowswho put them there or why or
what secret it is that they aredesigned to expose.
Um, but basically Isabel startsto question everything she knows
about her family and she's drawnto Meg and her pursuit of the
truth, but somebody will stop atnothing to keep their secrets

(15:16):
hidden.
Bum, bum, bum, chaos in shoes.

How good's that?
Marion, you look like you're onthe edge of your seat there.

I know.
I've got Kate's fork, it's justover just nearby.
I bought it just last week.
So very good.
Thank you.
Can't wait.

It's brilliant.
And I lived in Canberra for manyyears and I just pictured the,
the South, the Kangaroo Valley,Southern Highlands.
Little towns in my head.
Like I just, that was what Ivisualize and it's, you know, an
amazing spot and brilliant book.
So congratulations.
And it's just flying as well.
Like you've done so well, but Ijust want to step back though,

(15:54):
before we talk about the releaseof it.
I, I think.
All of us in this group,actually, we remember you coming
and joining us mid year lastyear.
And you said to us, Oh, I'vejust signed my contract.
It's June and it's going to beout in January.
And we all said, what?
We pulled the same faces that wejust pulled.

(16:14):
I think, how have you done this?
Yeah, I know.
It's

Kate Horan (16:17):
funny, isn't it?
Because, you know, everyonealways talks about how slowly
things go in publishing.
And that certainly was myexperience, you know, of all my
author friends, you know, oftenit was.
two years from signing a bookdeal until the book came out.
Um, yes, whereas mine was sixmonths, so it was a, I mean this

(16:37):
time last year, so what is it,mid February, this time last
year, um, I was, my book wasbeing structurally edited by,
like, I got a structural editdone, um, and I was waiting for
that to come back to me, and Ihadn't signed with my agent yet,
um, and so that came back sortof end of February, and then I

(16:59):
spent most of March working likecrazy because I was about to get
on a plane in early Um, Apriland I thought I'm just going to
have to get this done before Igo and so I did and I sent it
off to the agent who was, youknow, who I'd been talking to
about it at Curtis Brown.
Uh, and that was on the Tuesdayafter the Easter long weekend
and she signed me up the nextday on the Wednesday.

(17:21):
So I got on the plane on theThursday night and I had an
agent, which was amazing.
So that was like the first.
Big breakthrough.
Um, and then while I was away,she sent me, she said, I've got
a few little ideas, justsuggestions.
Do you want me to tell you now?
Or do you want to wait till youget back from your holiday?
I said, no, no, no, tell me nowso that my brain can start
ticking away on it.

(17:42):
And, um, so then when I gotback, I, I made those, you know,
sort of tweaks here and there,and it was, It was the end,
very, I think it was the lastday of May that she sent it out.
I think she sent it to eight ornine publishers and she was
going on holiday.
So she said, take your time tohave a read.
I'm away for a couple of weeks,come back and let me know on.

(18:03):
And she sent, said like 17th ofJune or something.
HQ three days later said, wewant to make an offer and we
want to publish it in January.
So that was it done.
So it was crazy.

I just, yeah, it's just an amazing story.
It's, it's not a common one, Iwould say as well to move that
quickly.
And how, I'm interested when yousaid you had been talking with
an agent at Curtis Brown, how,how did you find that
connection?

Kate Horan (18:31):
Well, I did the Faber writing a novel course,
um, in 2020, and she actuallysaw an extract in the anthology
that gets published, um, afterFaber.
And so She saw that and shecontacted Catherine Haman, who
was one of the, the tutors thatI worked with at Faber and said,

(18:54):
oh, I like the look of this.
So she was sort of interested inthat manuscript, but that
manuscript wasn't quite ready.
And that manuscript actually isbook two.
Right.
Um, so yeah, so what happenedwas she was interested in that.
So then when I wrote theinheritance, because I had the
idea for this DNA thing and.
It just felt to me like azeitgeisty thing that I should

(19:16):
just hurry up and write.
Um, and so I just put the otherone to the side and I wrote the
inheritance and then and I gotsome mentoring from Catherine
Heyman when I was writing theinheritance.
And so she suggested that wepick the conversation up again.
with Claire at Curtis Brown.
And so that was, that was sortof how that, that happened.

(19:37):
Um, and so, you know, it was, itwas quite a while before that,
though, that she, um, you know,it was sort of October.
Of the previous year to 2023that she said that she liked it
and I had to wait quite a whilefor the structural editor who
she recommended to be available.
And so it was quite a long,slow.
There's all these, I think inpublishing, there's all these

(19:59):
periods of waiting where youjust can't do anything to speed
things up.
And so.
That was kind of, you know, alittle bit frustrating because I
was like, oh, I just want to getthe structural edit done and,
and keep cracking on with this.
Um, but then little did I knowthat things were about to start
moving very quickly anyway, um,as soon as that was done.
So it all worked out, but I hopethat story is like for people

(20:21):
who are listening, who arewriting and hoping to get
published.
I hope that it's Inspiringbecause I just remember often
you'd sort of see people, Oh,that person's got a book to why
don't I, you know what I mean?
And it's easy to feel like that.
But I think that it's just, whenI reflect on that story, you
just have no idea what's aroundthe corner, like how quickly it

(20:41):
all can change and your luck canswing the other way.
Um, and that's certainly how Ifelt.
I mean, it still feels like acrazy fever dream.

Yeah, no, absolutely.
But it, you know, obviouslyyou've been working on it.
From before 2020 as well, soit's now in 2025, so it's five
years, so it moved, things movequickly, but Well, not The
Inheritance, The Inheritance,yeah, but But in terms of your
developing a

Kate Horan (21:04):
writing career, you've been investing time and
effort Yeah, in um, 2019 Yeah.
So properly, you know, seriouslytrying to write a novel.
Yeah.
So I definitely put the time in.

Yeah, absolutely.
What was your experience likeMarion when you were approaching
publishers?

Really different.
Yeah.
Really different decades, but Ialso started writing in about
2019.
So, um, that's interesting.
Yeah.
But quite a different path.
Actually it was 2018.
I started just.
Dabbling, and I, um, I'll goback and do the publication

(21:42):
before I go back to 2018.
So I was, uh, yeah, I, I hadstarted trying to write a novel
and, um, decided it was terribleand I needed to figure out how
to do this properly.
So I'd enrolled in professionalwriting and editing at RMIT.
And, uh, and that course wasfantastic.

(22:04):
And, and I'd be, I'd startedwriting this novel before, um, I
remember I had an excerpt, um,as my entrance, um, sort of as
part of the entranceapplication.
And so I just chipped away.
at it through the course.
Um, and it was great because,you know, through the pandemic,
it was, you know, it was justcrazy with kids.

(22:26):
It was, and, and I don't thinkif I was doing that course, you
know, I don't know what wouldhave happened to my writing
otherwise, but because I wasstudying, you sort of have to
write, you know, they give you,they're giving you assignments.
If you want to pass, you have towrite.
And so I was working on By herhand all the way through and
just chipping away, chippingaway.

(22:46):
And then as part of the course,um, we have a subject called,
um, towards publication where,uh, we learn about, um, you
know, getting an agent and howthe publication industry works.
And, uh, the very firstassignment is that we need to
pitch to an industryrepresentative and our teacher,
Danielle Binks, um.

(23:07):
Uh, organized people to come inand, and we would pitch to them
and, uh, Catherine Milne hadcome in and, and my group of
five, we were pitching toCatherine Milne.
So Catherine

is one of Catherine.
Yeah.
So

Catherine's head of fiction at Harper Collins.
Um, and she looks after thefourth estate sort of.
Crew of, um, of the imprint and,um, Trent Dalton, Holly
Ringland.
Yeah, just, and, um, I mean,it's, it's also not just the big
names.
She, she's, her story sense isjust incredible.

(23:41):
Um, but so she was interested inmy pitch and she asked Danielle
to make an email introductionand I sent her through some
early chapters.
And, uh, and she said, you know,thanks for that.
I probably won't get time toread it.
And I said, oh, well, that's,that's fine.
Thank you so much.
And I thought, well, that was areally nice little ego boost and

(24:03):
what a thrill to have CatherineMilne ask for that.
And I'll probably never hearfrom her again.
And then two days later, sheemailed me as I was going to bed
saying, Oh my gosh, we need totalk.
And so that, that happenedquickly because I didn't have a
full manuscript.
And so I was really honest withher right up from the start.
You know, this is, this is whatI've got.

(24:24):
This is where it's at.
And I knew I needed to do a lotof work.
So she was fantastic.
And, um, so it was, It wasacquired quite early on the
partial, but it was a longprocess from then because I
didn't have a first draft.
I hadn't given it to betareaders.
Um, and so, um, yeah, soCatherine had it for a while and

(24:48):
then it was in development for awhile.
And then after the structuraledit, I just worked so hard on
it last summer.
And, uh, I thought, oh, theremight be another structural
edit, but Catherine came backand said, I just love it.
It's, that's it.
We're off to copy editing stage.
So it was, um, moving alongthen.
So, yeah.

And it's a, it's a, you know, it's a
historical fiction.
So you've.
got a lot of things that youhave to make sure are accurate.
It's a long book too.
So, you know, copy edit initself is, it's not a simple
task, is it?
To, to go through and check andwe were talking about the waxing
and waning moons.

Oh yeah.
I love the moon.
There's a website that's got themoon cycles for, you know, 910
to 917.
It's amazing.
But apparently I've heardhistorical fiction writers who
say they get complaints when,when they get the moons wrong.
So, um,

yes, that's what my proofreader picked up
the, yes, issues with the moon.
So that's amazing.
I'm going to have to changethat.
So yes, all those fun things.
Um, so Emma, when you signedyour two book deal, had you
written your second book?

Yes, I had.
So, I signed with my agent,Danielle Binks, um, in 2022.
Um, and that would have been inAugust.
And when I signed with her, um,because I'd done, uh, an
assessment with her at the CYAconference again, and I had,

(26:25):
well, you have to do like alittle one line pitch.
Um, you have to do your comptitles.
Like what is this?
What other, um, Books, is thisone similar to?
And you were allowed to sort ofput any other details in that
cover page, like if you thoughtit was part of a series or
something.
So, I snuck in a little, youknow, this is a standalone, but
I do have ideas for, um, youknow, there's some of the other

(26:46):
siblings in the family, um, notromances between them, but, you
know, them and someone else,just to be clear.
Um, and so I, I'd sort of saidthat, um, and so she said when
she saw me, Let's get the secondbook written.
Uh, can you do, can you do that?
I said, of course, of course Ican.

(27:07):
Uh, and I was looking at mynotes the other day and I think
I actually wrote the first draftfor that one in about three
months.
So, I wrote the first draft andI got Last Breath to her in
January after I'd, I'd stillneeded like a lot of work, but I
sort of edited it quite quicklyum, and sent it to her.

While working full time as well, in your day
job.
Yes,

yes, yes.
I do, I did have the schoolholidays though, um, for, for
editing that, so that was,that's a bonus about being a
teacher.
Um, and yeah, so when we pitchedit, so that was, that would have
been the start of 2023, that Ihad the manuscript, so two

(27:46):
manuscripts to Danielle, andthen during 2023, um, We did
some edits back and forthbetween us on both of them, and
then in, it would have beenOctober 23, um, she pitched
both, uh, Last Shot and LastBreath, uh, as a series with
potential for other books.
to publishers.

(28:06):
Yeah, so it was written.

Oh my, well, that's good.
I'm glad it was because yourschedule has been just as
hectic.
It would have been impossible ifit hadn't been written.
Absolutely.
And, um, so we're talking aboutbefore doing historical fiction
research.
Food for last shot.
Tell us about the research.
I'm hoping you had lots ofwinery tours and that lots of
them were tax deductible aswell.
Did you deliberately set it on awinery tour?

(28:30):
Yeah, yeah,

no.
I said it, yeah, I, um, I don'thave a confession.
I don't really like wine thatmuch.
Yeah, I know.
I said this at my book launch.
It was the first time I'd kindof said it out loud.
Um, and I think people were abit Yeah, I don't know how
that's going to go down, but Idid, um, my, my Nono used to

(28:51):
make his own wine and that'skind of where I got a little bit
of the idea from like he's not,he is, he's not, he's in the
book in that there's agrandfather who's, who's dead,
but his name is Emilio, like mygrandfather and I did sort of
think, well, like his wine wasterrible.
No, no one would drink it.
Um, but I was like, well, whathappens if, yeah.
What would have happened if ithad been really good?
Um, but yeah, I, I didn't.

(29:13):
And not poisoned as well.
And not poisoned, yes.
Yeah, Nono's wine was definitelypoisoned.
The only reason he didn't getsick was, I don't know, he was
tough.
He was tough.
He, we went on till 94.
But, um, yeah, so I think I, Idid go to wineries though, uh,
for the setting.
Uh, and I just, you know, as anexcuse to go down south, uh, to
Market River.
Uh, but I do have, um, you know,like friends that drink wine and

(29:37):
they were more than happy to.
Ha! So I did, and I did a littlebit of research into just, I
guess, the, um, the logistics ofa winery.
Uh, and there are sort of like,and this is, this isn't a
spoiler, it's sort of there inthe book, but there are lots of
like secret passageways, um, onthe Barberani estate.
So that did come from myimagination, but I did sort of

(29:58):
have to look at logistically,you know, with sellers and stuff
where would.
These things be, yeah, so not asmuch wine drinking as yeah,

definitely reading both your book, Emma and
Kate's saw quite a fewsimilarities in terms of this,
you know, this family dynasty,the secrets, I was

understanding that too.
It's interesting, isn't it?
That, yeah, they're quitesimilar

in that way, the wealthy families.
What do you think?
Like maybe to both of you, what,why, why are we so fascinated
with?
With sort of these familysecrets, but also this like
wealthy, wealthy people.

Kate Horan (30:33):
I think rich people behaving badly is the best genre
of anything.
It's like a sub genre.
So succession, it can be, youknow, drama, it can be comedy,
Schitt's Creek.
I just love it.
I lap it up.
If it's got a rich family and,you know, there's something kind
of a little bit entertainingabout.

(30:53):
How sort of slightly out oftouch and removed from, you
know, the lives of most normalpeople, but I also think that in
a lot of, well, certainly inmine, and I'm not sure, Emma, I
haven't read yours, but you sortof seeing the downfall of some
of these people is quite.
Reassuring.

Yeah.
Absolutely.
I agree.
And I think I, I'm fascinatedwith, I guess, shows like
Downton Abbey where you've gotthe, you know, the rich family,
but you've also got the otherlayer, the sTaffe.
Yeah.
And that was, I think myinspiration for Last Shot was
the character that came to mefirst was, was Grey, who is the,
the fixer, the sTaffe member.
Can we just say his name?

Can dulcet tones?
Like, cause that's in my, my, myaudio book mind.
Grace

and Hawke.
Greyson Hawke.
Greyson Hawke.
Very sexy.
Oh, dear.
Um, but yeah, so I think I was, yeah,
fascinated by that, um,interaction, I think, with the,
the wealthy family and the, um,or yeah, not necessarily, like,
For people, but their, theirsTaffe who are obviously so

(32:00):
different to them.
Yeah.

And especially in a modern day setting where
having staff is not somethingthat most normal people have.
Whereas in Australia.

Nadia Mahjouri (32:14):
Hi, I'm Nadia Mahjouri, author of Half Truth,
published with Penguin RandomHouse.
Half Truth is a family dramathat tells the story of two
women searching for answersabout the same man.
22 year old Zara struggling withnew motherhood in her isolated
Tasmanian home at the bottom ofBruny Island.
Desperate for answers about herown identity, Zara decides to

(32:37):
travel to Marrakesh to find herfather, a man her mother will
not discuss.
But when she arrives, shediscovers he's missing and he
hasn't been seen for over 20years.
Along with her extended family,who are desperate for news of
him, Zahra tries to untangle themystery of her father's
disappearance, learning aboutMoroccan culture, politics, and

(32:58):
herself along the way.
Meanwhile, Hadija, Zahra'sgrandmother, is also longing to
see her firstborn son, Ahmed.
Packing her home of 50 yearswhere her son was born, Hadija
remembers her village childhood,her marriage at just 11 years
old, and the birth of Ahmed whenshe was just 13.

(33:18):
She recalls her son's fierynature and his passionate fight
against the monarchy, and thelast night she saw him.
The night after a failedassassination attempt on the
King of Morocco.
This novel is inspired by my ownexperience of traveling to
Morocco in the late 90s with mybaby to find my father.

(33:38):
And it's a story of motherhoodand loss, identity and
belonging.
Which makes ideal reading forperhaps a book club or anyone
who would like to feel likethey're traveling to Morocco
from the comfort of their home.
living room.
I really hope you love HalfTruth and enjoy meeting Zahra
and Hadeeja.

(33:58):
Thanks so much to Madeleine andTina for the opportunity to
introduce Half Truth to you all.
Thanks a lot.

So Kate, I think I mentioned before, we've
just been so excited to watchyou and your book fly, like you
were literally the first personto step off the cab off the rank
for us.
How have you Felt dealing withall the publicity and the hype
and the social media.
I've heard that the social mediacan be quite exhausting.
It's constant, but how have you?

Kate Horan (34:31):
I haven't found it too much, really.
I think because my book came outon New Year's Day and that meant
that the events have beendelayed until pretty much
February.
My book launch was on the 30thof January and that was the
first event.
It meant that I had January tobe, you know, seeing the things

(34:52):
that people were posting andlooking at Goodreads, even
though we're not supposed to andchecking that, you know, there
weren't any one star reviewsthere and all of that sort of
stuff.
So.
And then now I'm kind of in thethick of events.
I mean, this is the secondpodcast interview I've done
today.
Um, and I've got another onethis week and, you know,
hopefully it was more fun, Kate.
Oh, well, there was only me andone other person on the other

(35:14):
one.
So you've got, you know, fourtimes the, four times the fun.
Yeah.
So, um, I haven't found it toomuch, but I mean, I definitely
think you've got to just managethe social media side of things.
And also I was, I mean, I wastrying to finish book two in
January and I had children onschool holidays as well.

(35:35):
It was a little bit like chaos,but, um, yeah, fun.
It's actually been extremelyfun.
And.
Yeah.
I keep sort of just remindingmyself that it's fun because it
can be like, Oh, I've got sobusy, so busy, but actually it's
busy doing all this really funstuff.
And you know, I'm starting atthe moment I'm, you know, each

(35:56):
day there's an email thatarrives that says, do you want
to come to this festival or doyou want to do this or that?
And it's just exciting.
Do
you get those emails and youjust go, what is this life?
Like a little bit, like I amlike, wow, this is.
This is kind of funny.

How are you feeling about it,

Marion?
Yours

is coming

next.
Coming up soon.
So I'm a month away and I mean,I'm trying to get.
The calendar is starting to lookreally busy.
Um, and yeah, I have kids aswell.
So they have, you know, sportscompetitions and things like
that, and appointments that arerudely interrupting my
publicity.

(36:32):
But, um, the, yeah, it's gettingpretty, it's, it's kind of the
calm before the storm in a way,I think.
Um, I don't know, Emma and Kate,you've been through it and
Madeleine, this will be yousoon.
To

Kate Horan (36:44):
be honest, Marion, I felt.
More stressed and kind ofanxious before my book came out
in that probably that bitbetween where you are and the
publication day, I just feltincreasingly, I just had like
this sort of low levelapprehension, 100 percent of the
time.
And I was, you know, in themiddle of the night, I'd be
thinking things that didn'teven, you know, silly things

(37:06):
like what sort of pen do you useto sign books and stuff like
that.
That is just nonsense.
But that was sort of where myhead was at.
And then as soon as it was out,it was almost like.
it was in the world and itwasn't mine anymore and I could
just

let it go.
Yeah, I'm definitely feelingthat.
And I remember, and it's like,you know, it's like these
stages, it's not stages ofgrief, but there definitely was
a period of grief for me.
I think when I realized thatthat's it, it was pens down, you
know, and this story that haslived in your head for, uh, for
me five years and has evolved,you know, every morning I'd wake

(37:39):
up with a new idea and be like,well, she would say that, she
would say this.
And, And to just get to thatpoint where it's like, no more,
there's this story is not goingto evolve anymore.
Like, you can keep having theseideas and I'm sure I will for
years from now, but I can't, Ican't put it in the book.
Yeah, but also it was gettingover that hump and realizing

(38:01):
actually.
It's, it's not mine anymore.
I mean, it is my book.
It will always be mine, butit's, it's a kind of really
beautiful thing to think it goesout into the world and every
person will bring their own lifeto the story and it will become
something different ineverybody's mind, uh, a little
bit different for everyone.
And so it's, yeah, once you letit go, um, it's quite freeing.

(38:23):
It's kind of like getting on aplane and just going, well.

Kate Horan (38:26):
Yeah,

so that's, that's how it's feeling for me, this
little period.
It's feeling good.
Actually.
I'm not feeling too bad.
That's great on there.
That's good.
I'm waiting for the madness tohit, but it's not too bad at the
moment.

Calm before the storm.
What about you, Emma?
Has there been a period or apoint where you've felt most
anxious?

I think I definitely, like Kate was
saying, just before it came out,I think I was feeling this dread
that no one will read it, butthen if they do, they will hate
it.
And that was sort of, I sat withthat for a long time.
Why do we do this to ourselves?
I don't know.
I don't know.
It's the, yeah, I think it's theimposter syndrome.

(39:09):
It's the, uh, uh, yeah.
I just, and then Goodreadsterrifies me.
It still terrifies me.
And I have been checking it, butI know I need to stop.
Um, but, yeah, I think, Idefinitely, after the launch, I
definitely felt this, um, Like Iwas coming down from a high
because it was, you know, youhave this adrenaline and then it

(39:29):
just, it just drops.
Um, so I definitely felt thatand that was a weird feeling.
I didn't expect that.
Um, I thought that I'd sort of,um, carry on with the high for,
for a bit longer, but I'mdefinitely, I'm out, I'm out of
that now.
And I'm, I'm sort of, I guess, abit more stable, even though
I've just moved house and I'mback at work.
Um, and I have a six year oldwho.

(39:52):
Uh, doesn't care that much thatmy book has come out into the
world, funnily enough.
Um, so yeah, it's been, it'sbeen weird.
I think I, cause I've got a verybig imagination.
I think we all do cause they'rewriters.
So I think I imagine what it'sgoing to be like and then if
it's not like that, not in, it'sbeen amazing, but I think, you

(40:12):
know, Oh, it didn't happen theway I thought that was going to
happen.
And then that's okay.
But I think I get in my head toomuch.
I need to just stop and be inthe moment.
Sorry.
Round two in April.
I'm going to be in the momentmore when it comes out.
Not obsess over little things asmuch.
I say that now.
Ask me again in April.

You were nodding along there, Kate.
Do you agree?

Kate Horan (40:35):
Yeah.
Um, yeah, I think it's, I don'tknow.
I think there is somethingreally, there's a lot of
vulnerability required to put apiece of work out and let people
judge it.
And, you know, I mean, even thefact that good reads exist and
people can write, this wasterrible.
This is the worst book I've everread.
If they want to, they don't haveto have any, you know,

(40:57):
qualifications.
They don't even have to haveread the book, you know, they
can.
And so there is something thatis quite.
You know, anxiety inducing aboutthat, but yeah, for me, it was
more just once it was out, Ifelt like I don't have control
anymore.
And there's a bit of a lettinggo of control.
I think that's, that's for quiet

by the time it does come out, it's, it's
really, it's not your bookanymore because it's, it's so
many people from the publisher,from the sales team, from
publicity marketing, you know,everyone's had a role and
everyone wants to Everyone wantsto see it fly as well.
So it's that releasing, isn'tit?
Once you're past that manuscriptstage and getting it out there,

(41:38):
which is so exciting.
Well, I think Marion and I havegot some good tips, I think,
from this.
This is quite helpful for me.
Thank you.
Wise ones.
And not checking Goodreads, Ithink it's going to be.
A tough one, but probably a goodone.
You will, you'll

do it.
That's

what my husband keeps saying.
I'm like, no, no, no, I won't.
He's like, no, no, no, you will.
Yeah, my husband's ready toblock it when it comes out.
Okay, so I did have a chat withyou guys about some
recommendations of some debutauthors from last year.
So, who would like to, doesanyone have a book that they

(42:15):
read last year?
It doesn't have to be Australiandebut, it can be any debut from
last year that they want to talkabout.
Maybe you start with Mary?

Oh, me?
Okay, um, this is difficultbecause, um, for a little while
my book was pencilled to comeout.
In 2024.
But, uh, and so I read a lot ofthe Australian debuts last year
and there's so many good ones.
It's really, really hard tochoose.
So can I rattle some off before?
Because my, my choice isactually an overseas author, but

(42:46):
it was really hard.
Um, Tidelines by Sarah Sasson.
Amazing.
Whenever You're Ready by TrishBolton and Into the Margins by
Gayle Holmes were probably, Icouldn't decide between the
three of them.
So I went overseas.
So I went overseas.
Um, and I went for The Safe Keepby Jael van der Vauden, I think
is how you pronounce her name,um, which was shortlisted for

(43:06):
the booker.
And um, it just was incredible.
Uh, uh, you know, it's set inthe 1960s, so that qualifies as
historical fiction.
And did you want to hear alittle bit about it or it's
quite famous now?
So, um, it's set in theNetherlands in the 1960s and
follows.
the incredibly unlikablecharacter is about, which is

(43:27):
really quite horrible.
Um, but it's, it's, it's anincredible exploration of the
repression of truth, like of, ofsexuality and class and the
ripples that war anddispossession send through
generations and, and aboutreckoning with the true cost of
what we have inherited.

(43:48):
The things around us and and Ijust found it a deeply
challenging book and I felt likeit really posed the question to
me of what would I be willing togive up to live a truly
authentic life and it's yeah soit's tough it just um it's
beautiful writing and it'schallenging and at some points

(44:09):
you're just thinking oh you'repushing me to the edge here and
uh and yeah but You know, it's,it all comes together just
beautifully.

What a recommendation.
I don't think we're going to beable to match that one.
That was, um, beautiful, Marion.
Another one to add to the TBR.

Kate Horan (44:26):
I read, um, well, I read a number of debuts last
year, and there were lots ofreally Strachan ones.
Um, the one that really standsout for me is Everything is
Perfect by Maxine Fawcett.
Um, I just thought it was areally interesting, Story very
character driven about a womanwho's sort of approaching, you

(44:47):
know, sort of menopausal sort ofage and starting to question
quite a lot of things andfeeling dissatisfied with her
marriage and, you know, justlife being quite mundane.
Uh, and yeah, she, she developsa.
A crush, which becomes anobsession on a, on a widowed
father, who's, um, who's gotchildren at the same primary

(45:09):
school.
And the thing that I just thinkis like, I really admire that
Max really sort of took it.
She, she really sort of pushedit in terms of the behavior of,
of the main character, Cassie.
Um, and I know, like, I've heardpeople say, Oh God, it was like,
I couldn't quite cope with that.
Like the characters, like quitea polarizing character, but I
thought it was.

(45:30):
Um, really interesting.
I mean, I was riveted.
I was turning the pages.
Absolutely.
And quite horrified.
Don't, don't do that, you know?
Um,
and yeah, she would, she woulddo the, the things that I was
hoping she wouldn't, but

yeah, I great.
It was like, you were watchinglike a car kind of, yeah.
And you're like, no, no, no,don't do that.
And she's like, okay, now I'mdoing this.
And you're like, Oh God.
Yeah.
And I loved, I actually listenedto the audio book of that one as
well, um, which was narrated byAnna Downs.
And so it was fantastic.
I didn't know that Anna also, soas a writer, she's a writer, Red

(46:06):
River.
She was a rata,

Kate Horan (46:07):
rata trained actor.
Yes.

Amazing.
It was, yeah, fantastic.

I loved Everything is Perfect as well,
so you stole one of mine, butno, I, um, I did, I really
loved.
I don't think this is a 2024.
I think it was at the end of 23.
It was Green Dot by MadeleineGray.
That's incredible.
My 2024 one I would say Anomalyby Emma Lord.

(46:35):
So it is, the main character isPiper.
And basically, it's kind oflike, uh, the apocalypse has
already happened.
Um, but there's so much more instore.
I don't want to give too muchaway, but it is just incredible.
So it is a YA dystopian, uh,novel and Emma's just her
description, but hercharacterization and the banter

(46:57):
between the main characters isjust phenomenal.
So even if you're not.
Like, you normally read YA, Ithink just anyone can enjoy this
book, so I actually recommendedthat to one of my students, um,
the other day, who wanted toread.
my god, a teenager wants toread, you know, let me tell you
all of these books, but I toldher to get Anomaly, so.

(47:18):
I'm going to recommend it hereas well.
Are you encouraging yourstudents to read your book?
Oh, no, I'm not.
I, look, I know that we need toimprove literacy rates.
Yeah, exactly.
Like, I know we need to improveliteracy rates and everything.
Um, and like, I guess, you know,reading.
a book that your teacher wrotewhere there's like sex scenes in
it.
I don't really know what else todo to improve literacy rates,

(47:39):
but I don't, like, I don't, I,I've told them like it's, it's
for adults.
So, um, I'm pretty confidentthey're probably not going to
read it, you know, like.
Uh, so yeah, I said when you're,when you're 18 and then, but
some of the year 12s do turn 18.
Um, in, so I, I've said when youleave school, never contact me

(48:02):
again.

And you're going to be writing YA it sounds
like in future as well.
So

yeah.
Yeah.
They can read that.
If I write some YA, they canread that one.

Emma we'll continue with you.
Do you want to leave?
I'm sure you've had lots ofepisodes to ponder your, your
top tips.
I'm feeling

all the nerves.
Um, my, my top tip is it's kindof a three for one.
It is to like, I, I am no one,you know, I'm not, I'm nothing
special.
So if I can do it.
If I can get a book deal, thenanyone can.
So, in order to get your, yourbook over the line, I think

(48:46):
there's three things you need,but it all, it all comes into
the one thing.
It's all the one tip.
You have to want it, you have tolove it, and you have to do it.
So, you've got to want it, whichmeans you have to have that goal
in mind.
Like, this is where I want tobe.
I, I, want, you know, to signthe book deal or whatever it is.
And that's what keeps you sortof motivated and working towards

(49:07):
it.
You've got to love it.
So even when, you know, you'retired and you just want to watch
maths, you've got to, or Netflixor whatever, you've just got to
sit down and write and you haveto love the process of writing.
Um, and you have to do it.
You have to sit down, you haveto open up the laptop and you
just got to do it.
And you will get there, Ipromise, because I did.

There you go.
Even if it's just one word perday, still progress.
Yeah.
And you'll find if you go on andyou're like, Oh, I'm just going
to do five minutes, and thenbefore you know it.
Time yourself,

Pomodoro method, a hundred percent.
Yeah.

Oh, is that a method?
Is it?
Well, it's not just a method,

but it's a thing.
Oh yeah.
Lots of people better than medo.

Kate Horan (49:48):
It's a short burst, isn't it?
Like a 20 minute.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kate Horan (49:51):
Sit down for 20 minutes.
It's like tricking yourself intoexercise.
I think you sometimes got totrick yourself into it and say,
I'll just sit down and I'llwrite one paragraph and then
I'll, if I'm not feeling it,I'll get up again.

And inevitably you do more than one paragraph.
You never get up

Kate Horan (50:04):
after a paragraph.
Yeah.
So yeah.
Good tips.
Yeah.
My tip would be, I think you dohave to invest a bit in learning
the craft of writing.
And I think when I reflect onmy, I, at first, I just tried to
do it without learn, like, Ijust thought I'll just try and

(50:25):
see and if I can work out how todo this and you can't.
I mean, it's a very complicatedthing to do writing a novel.
It's hard to think of anythingquite, quite as complex as, as
writing, you know, a novel.
And I think you do have to learnthe craft.
So I would say.
invest in, in the learning.
Um, for me that looked like, Imean, I, I did the Faber writing

(50:47):
a novel course, which is one ofthe ways of doing it.
Um, there's lots of differentoptions, craft books, all of
that, but just learn the actualcraft.
Like just as one example, um,when I learned how to write a
scene and I really understoodthe structure of a scene, I felt
like that was quite a gamechanger, um, in terms of my

(51:09):
writing.
And.
Even just how quickly I couldwrite, once I understood that,
um, that it became faster for meto write.
I didn't have to sort of fumblemy way through trying to work
out how to make this thing workanymore.
Um, so just some of thosetechnical things that you can
learn, um, I would say invest inthe learning.

Are you a plotter or a pantser, Kate?

Kate Horan (51:33):
I'm a

pantser.
In fact, to the point where Ithought

Kate Horan (51:36):
I

was listening to you going,

Kate Horan (51:37):
she's a blotter.
No, no, I'm a pantser.
And to the point where I didn'teven finish my first draft,
because I thought, now I knowwhere to start this story.
And so I just went 65, 000words, three quarters the way
through.
I'll stop there.
And I'll start my second draft.
So I was halfway through mysecond draft and I still didn't
know the ending.

(51:58):
And so I was starting to reallypanic thinking, what if I can't
think of it?
What if I can't work out how tobring this home?
And then I was driving my carone day and it just came like
this bolt from the sky.
It just happens like that.
Oh, that's what she does.
And so that was it.
Yeah.
But so I pants, but I also thinkthat that whole pants are

(52:18):
plotter distinction is a littlebit.
Less true in real life becauseit's just doing one first and
then the other I think like Ipants but after maybe, you know,
a draft or two.
Then I need to work out whatI've got and make sure that it's
working, you know, from a plotperspective and really think
about, you know, the structureof it and, and whether it's

(52:41):
doing what it needs to do to besatisfying for readers.
So, I think you still do theplotting if you're a panther,
it's just that you don't startwith the plot, the plotting.
I agree.
You start with the charactersand the scenario.

Have you guys heard of the quilters and the
knitters as well?
Okay.
Yes.
Yes.
Okay.
Emma.
So yes, you, you can explainthis.

Oh no.
I've heard of it.
I can't remember it.
Okay.
I can explain it.
I

can explain it.
So Kate Sully, um, who you guysmight know, um, yeah.
So I went to her event last weekand she said, so you've gone one
level and I'm holding on my handfor, for, for us, but for
listeners, I'm just holding ithorizontal.
That's all you've got.
Plotter's Pants Spectrum.
And then if you flip it, you'vealso got quilters and knitters.

(53:28):
So quilters are writers who willjust quilt a certain scene, and
then, but it could be at anypoint in the novel, and then
they'll just patchwork the noveltogether.
I'm a knitter.
Knitters are the people that golike, I was horrified to hear
that there are quilters thatexist.
I
don't know

Kate Horan (53:48):
how.
I find it hard enough to keeptrack of my story when I go in
chronological order.
I don't know how, if you jumparound, you can keep track of
all the details.
And I don't know

how you do it in a Like in a mystery novel or
a crime novel.
I just, yeah, like I understandpantsing and, and, but I would
assume that you're still writingchronologically.

Kate Horan (54:07):
Yeah.

Well.
What about you, Marion?
I remember you once telling me,I was horrified when you told me
this Marion, and I stillremember it today.
I know what this is going to be,yes.
The chapters.
Yes.
You

said you had no chapters.
I had no chapters.
I have no clue about chapters.
I, I think in scenes, so, Idon't think it's so far removed
from chapters, so I would writescenes.
And I, I, I actually thinkeverybody does, but I, I
remember asking so manyteachers, like, what, how do you
know what's a chapter?
Like, because is it too, it's,it's.

(54:42):
It's just a bit sort of higgledypiggledy.
Some have two scenes.
Yeah.
So it's just that, um, ending ona hook to keep people reading.
Um, I don't, I don't know aboutthat.
And as I was writing, it justwasn't a priority for me to
think about.
Things in terms of chapters, andI have friends who, yep, I'm

(55:05):
going to write a chapter today.
I'm like, how do you, how do youknow?
Like you might go back anddelete a scene and then you've
got to move your chapter headingbecause you'll have a teeny tiny
chapter or a really big fatchapter.
Um, so no, I just had thismassive document that I wrote
into and, um, and sometimes Iwould write a little bit ahead.
I'd think, Oh no, I need to workon this scene.

(55:25):
And I'd kind of pull it out andwork on it in a separate
document and then stick it backinto my big, huge, chapterless
void.
I know everyone was quitemortified.
I just thought, you know.
People, I don't know, I don'tknow how you work in chapters
and think in chapters.
So I basically went through onceI had finished the manuscript

(55:46):
and divided it into chapters.

I was reading your manuscript thinking about
this and just thinking, hownatural are the chapters?
They were very natural.

So good.
Thank you.
Well, nobody changed them.
So that was good.

Kate Horan (56:00):
One thing that I think is a strength of the way
you did it without the chaptersis That every, I find once
there's some books that I readand I have this.
Suspicion theory.
And I don't know if I'm right orwrong that it is because of what
people writing in Scrivenerwhere the documents are separate

(56:21):
from each other, whether itfeels like the chapters are
disconnected from each other,where
you don't feel
this really Strachan connection between the end of
one chapter and the start of thenext.
And that's one of the reasonswhy I've never been like, uh,
Scrivener just doesn't reallywork for me because I just.
I write in a big Word documenttoo, because I want that chapter
to flow straight into that one,because I think that's what

(56:42):
makes you keep turning pages asa reader.

Okay.
Yeah.
Interesting.
Although, yeah, I know some, Ihaven't even tried Scrivener and
I couldn't because I startedthis in Word and I just couldn't
mentally do, I couldn't.
Change midway through, um, butmy tip is a little bit
different.
Yes, you're going to finish usoff as well.
Okay, don't write chapters.

(57:06):
No, um, my tip is actually alittle bit more crafty.
And it was something that youhear a lot when you start to do.
You know, take Kate's adviceand, and get some, get invested
in some craft and some learning.
You hear a lot about voice andit's always an element of, of

(57:26):
any sort of introduction tofiction course and you find your
voice, find your voice as awriter.
And um, to me it's kind of liketrying to read a newspaper with
your nose on the page.
It's just, you know, where's myvoice, where's my voice?
It just seems strange.
So my advice, I think, um, Ireally liked the tip to not

(57:48):
think about finding your voice,your voice is there and it will
come and it will evolvenaturally, but think about
finding your character's voiceand throw them, you only find
that by writing and throwingthem into situations, seeing how
they react, what they'rethinking about, ask them, you
know, what lies.
Do they tell themselves what'sbeneath that?

(58:09):
Why do they do this?
And why do they do this?
No, really, why do they do this?
And just get into that nittygritty of the character.
And I think your writer's voicejust comes naturally if you
concentrate on finding yourcharacter's voice.
So, um, yeah, that's my tip.
I feel like I wanted to

do a workshop with Marion on voice.
Cause I just like, Oh, I need totake notes.
This is good.
And I think also for The voiceis the first thing they really
look at.
If they're not hooked by thevoice in the first few chapters,
doesn't matter how good thestory is.
The voice has to be there andpresent and in your head.

you can see it.
But when you're learning andsomeone is just saying, well,
you've got to find your voice.
It's, I don't know.
I just found it was just like,well, there's not a lot about
how to do that.
And it's really just throughwriting and, and then you find
different characters.
Um, you know, you've gotdifferent voices.
So, um, Hey, you've always got

something to say.
I can see.

Kate Horan (59:14):
No, I was, I agree with that.
And, and I think.
I've often thought about thiswhole find your voice thing and
often when you ask people, whatdo you mean by voice?
They kind of can't quite answerthat question.
Like it's a bit of thisephemeral kind of thing that's
like slippery through yourhands.
You can't quite get a hold onit.
And so I think Marion's adviceis really good there.

(59:36):
I think just really standing inthe shoes of your character and
thinking and seeing the worldthe way they see it.
And how would they, how wouldthey speak?
How would they think?
I think, yeah, I think that's abetter way of coming to whatever
that voice thing

is.
Yeah, and I think you get toknow your voice.
I mean, especially ifworkshopping and writers groups
and getting that feedback, youget to go, Oh, that's, that's a
me thing.
Oh.
I

Emma Pignatiello (01:00:00):
think it took me five manuscripts to find my
voice.
I think that's why last shotworked.
The others didn't.
Yeah.
I think you're so right.
It's in the writing.

Madeleine Cleary (01:00:08):
Yeah.
Well, I'm going to leave thiswith Greyson Hawke's voice in my
head later tonight.
And Freida, who's, I know,doesn't it?
And Freida, a woman from the10th century.
So I love the diversity of thisyear's debut crew.
Um, so thank you so much, Emma,Marion, and Kate for joining us

(01:00:30):
tonight.

Emma Pignatiello (01:00:31):
Thanks for having us.
Thank you, Madeleine.
Thanks.
Thank you.

Madeleine Cleary (01:00:36):
We hope you enjoyed this episode of the book
deal podcast.
Please like, follow or sharethis episode so we can encourage
more aspiring authors.
And if you have a question you'dlike us to answer or ask our
guests, please find us onInstagram at the book deal or
email us at the book deal atoutlook.
com.

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