October 15, 2025 • 36 mins
Hosts Tina Strachan, Madeleine Cleary, and Natasha Rai catch up on their busy lives, upcoming events, and delve into a detailed discussion about their editing processes and tips. They provide personal experiences, practical advice like using a ruler to read line by line, and even reading a manuscript backward to catch errors. Special shout-outs include celebrating Dyslexia Awareness Month and recognizing their supportive patrons, with a particular mention of Christine Newell. Additionally, Rebecca Grant shares insights into her new picture book, Potion Commotion.
00:00 Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast
00:29 Meet the Hosts
01:33 Upcoming Live Episode Plans
02:55 Listener Stats and Shoutouts
05:42 Author Burnout and Health
09:03 Event Preparations and Challenges
17:12 The Importance of Printing Out Your Manuscript
20:11 Rebecca Grant Introduces 'Potion Commotion'
21:28 Using Spreadsheets for Plotting and Structuring
24:38 Editing Failures and Lessons Learned
29:59 Top Tips for Editing Your Manuscript
35:04 Dyslexia Awareness and Special Formats
35:44 Thank You to Our Supporters
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tina, Madeleine, Natasha (00:09):
This is the Book Deal podcast where
you will discover the inspiringstories behind your favorite
books.
We interview seasoned and debutauthors, as well as publishing
industry professionals to bringyou the best tips and advice on
how to get that elusive bookdeal.
So no matter what's.
Stage of writing your at.
We've got you covered.
(00:29):
I'm Tina Strachan.
I'm Madeline Cleary.
And I'm Natasha Rai.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one
deal at a time.
The book Deal podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners, the land and waters,which it's recorded on and pays
respect to their elders past,present, and emerging.
Tina Strachan (00:56):
Hello everybody.
My name is Tina Strachan and I'mso excited to be here with my
most wonderful co-hosts,Madeline Cleary and Natasha Rai.
Hello?
Hi.
Hi.
Oh gosh, ladies, it's been awhole nother month since we've
caught up and we've all beensuper duper busy, and I miss you
girls.
Natasha Rai (01:16):
Aw, I miss you too.
We haven't all caught up, thethree of us in person yet.
Tina Strachan (01:20):
No,
Natasha Rai (01:21):
that's good.
Hang on.
What
Tina Strachan (01:23):
have we not?
Oh my gosh, no.
Oh, that's shocking.
That's horrifying.
Oh, this is gonna have to be a,um, yes.
That's gonna be a monumentaloccasion where we do do that.
And we might have some newsabout that maybe in our next
step.
Natasha Rai (01:37):
Oh, I hope so.
Oh, I
Tina Strachan (01:38):
hope so.
Maybe we can put it out.
Madeleine Cleary (01:40):
Should we put it out to the podcast?
Gods?
If you have venue in anywhere,really we go anywhere.
We'll go anywhere that doespodcast live episodes in
December where we really wannado a podcast live episode for
Christmas.
So if you know a venue thatwants to host us for a small
fee, please let us know.
Tina Strachan (02:02):
Please, please let us know.
And then you can all come alongand ask us all the questions
that you have about writing andpublishing.
And we'll maybe, hopefully havesome, some advice to give.
Yeah, or we'll just have lots offun anyway.
Natasha Rai (02:14):
We'll get lots of writers in and we can sell lots
of books for Christmas.
That should also be a thing.
We do a Christmas market,
Tina Strachan (02:21):
Christmas shopping, that's it.
Oh, well, hopefully.
Yes.
So definitely let us know.
Reach out.
But um, apart from that, yeah,we're just gonna have a, a bit
of a chat, a bit of a catch up.
I really wanna know where yougirls are.
Are at, um, checking back insince we chatted last month.
Um, and then I also wanted toask some questions about editing
(02:41):
because I think we're all deepin editing at the moment in
various different stages.
Mm-hmm.
Um, as well as writing new words'cause we like to do a few
different things.
Um, so yeah, so I have somequestions about that.
Um, but first, you know, what Iwanted to do, um, ladies, I
don't know if you've looked atthis, but you know, we use a
buzzsprout, right?
(03:02):
For our.
For hosting our podcastepisodes.
And they have this really coolthing that I actually just love
looking at, which I can't findnow.
And, and Tina is
Madeleine Cleary (03:12):
our stats person.
She's always telling us thestats and Yeah.
Cash and I just have no idea.
Tina Strachan (03:17):
Yeah,
Natasha Rai (03:17):
I know.
We just go, yay.
Every time.
Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan (03:20):
I love, I love the stats.
We know this.
I love a spreadsheet.
Um, I have a new one to tell yougirls about later as well.
Oh my gosh.
So you get excited.
Um, okay.
So.
But in our app, it's really cool'cause it tells us the new
locations of like the, the, thelast five new locations of
people that are listening to thepodcast.
Oh.
(03:40):
I just find it so interestingand so cool.
It also tells you what they'relistening to.
So, um, shout out to.
Our listeners in, and I'm, I'mcertain I'm gonna say this
wrong, you girls also, we alsoget points for whoever's
actually been to this city.
Madeleine Cleary (03:55):
Okay.
Oh, I love the game.
Oh, here we go.
Yeah,
Tina Strachan (03:57):
because we're all quite well traveled, right?
I, I get zero points for thisfirst one.
You have to guess where this oneis actually, uh, Marson in earth
trick.
I have
Natasha Rai (04:09):
no idea.
Tina Strachan (04:10):
No.
Is that
Natasha Rai (04:11):
in Germany?
Tina Strachan (04:12):
No, I know.
I see where you're going withthat though.
Uh, it's in the Netherlands.
Madeleine Cleary (04:16):
Oh, course.
Yeah.
So shout out to
Tina Strachan (04:18):
our Netherlands listeners.
Natasha Rai (04:19):
Hello?
Sorry.
I said Germany and notNetherlands.
Tina Strachan (04:23):
It looks beautiful.
I actually Googled it, um, andthey were listening to your most
recent episode, uh, Natasha,with Angie Faye Martin.
Aw.
Aw.
For listening.
Yeah, we had lots, lots of themtoday.
Also listening to that episodewas listeners in Worthing, west
Sussex.
Whoa.
Anyone, anyone been there?
I think I have been there.
(04:44):
Mm.
Not points for Natasha.
You'll be done.
Natasha, you're winning.
I know.
And, uh, surely in Lancaster.
Oh.
Anyone been there?
I've,
Natasha Rai (04:54):
I've, I've, I've been to Lancashire too, so, I
mean, well, I lived in the UKfor quite a while, so.
Tina Strachan (04:58):
Okay.
Right.
Winner.
Winner.
All right.
Well, has anyone been toClearfield in Utah?
Natasha Rai (05:04):
No, I've
Tina Strachan (05:04):
been to Utah.
Me.
Well, there you go.
So you do get a point for that.
And they were listening to HollyBrom's, um, episode that we did.
Excellent.
Um, a couple months ago.
Um, yeah, so shout out to allour listeners overseas.
It's so cool to see those newcities pop up and, yeah.
It's just great that it's, thatit's getting out there, getting
(05:24):
around the world.
It's really cool.
So that's my stats update.
I'm not doing
Natasha Rai (05:28):
an international trip one time book deal podcast
on the road.
Tina Strachan (05:31):
Oh yes, that'd be good.
Wouldn't that?
Uh, the dream we can keepdreaming, dreaming.
But, uh, okay, so I wanted tocheck in with you ladies, see
where you're at.
Uh, it's been another busymonth, and, um, Madeline, last
time we spoke to you, you were,or still had another busy month.
You've been pretty nonstop.
(05:51):
Um, and the, the juggle ofhealth and workload was sort of
taking a toll.
Um, we chatted a lot last timeabout, um.
Uh, you know, burnout or theburnout.
So how are, how are you going,are you feeling a bit better?
How has it been?
Madeleine Cleary (06:08):
Oh, it, the burn the burnout episode was
very timely for me.
Mm-hmm.
I think while, while we'rediscussing it, I was probably
very, very close to burnout, ifnot at burnout.
When I said that to my friend, Ithink a few nights ago, um, at
book club, I said, oh, yeah, Iwas close to Ben.
She's like.
Mads, you were at burnout.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think, um, yeah, so I, Ihave been quite sick.
(06:31):
I've just been, you know,getting repeat things, prolonged
sicknesses, and I think that's asign for your body to say you
have to rest.
So, um, yeah, it hasn't beengreat.
And.
Uh, I think as well with thewriting, I had this vision in my
mind that the manuscript wouldbe done and edited by the end of
September.
And of course now it's October,it is not done.
(06:53):
Um, it's getting there.
It's getting there, but it's notdone.
'cause I just, you know, evenwhen I'm sick, like I still keep
pushing and working and I'm surea lot of writers understand that
the lure too.
In patience and listening toyour body, um, and all things,
(07:15):
all the advice that Tashprovided in our last, like,
catch up on author burnout.
So I really had to pay attentionand listen to it.
So it has been difficult, but,um, I feel like I'm on the other
side.
I've, you know, took a, a bit oftime off work and writing and
just yeah, had some.
Just.
Watching crappy movies, which Inever get to do, and reading
(07:38):
books and sitting on the couchfor a bit and I felt better,
but, mm.
Um, I mean, that's just atemporary measure.
I have to sort of make changesnow in my lifestyle, I think,
to, to avoid it.
But yeah, I've got a few moreevents coming up in October, and
then after that though, it.
Really nice and quiet.
So I think I'll be able to Yeah,find some space.
(07:59):
Um, so yeah, if you are inSydney, I think it'll, it'll be
on the night, I think the daythat this comes out.
So if you're in Sydney, 16th ofOctober, I'll be there.
And then I'm in Ballarat on theThursday, the 23rd of October
for an event.
If you're in Ballarat with HollyBauer, actually, who she's gonna
be.
My in convo partner and thenDandenong Literary Festival as
(08:19):
well, which is just up the road,which will be really fun.
So I've got lots of like, funthings to look forward to.
So, yeah.
And then in terms of thewriting, um, I have 17 pages
left to edit of Oh, draft.
Oh, so close.
So close.
I'm excited.
So yes, that's, that's prettymuch where I'm What about you
(08:40):
Tash, though?
How has your last month been?
Uh, uh,
Natasha Rai (08:44):
yeah, it's been so busy.
Um, and so I've, I mentioned itin my substack today that the
time boxing has really helped mebecause, um, now I'm not as
stressed when I don't get tosomething.
'cause I haven't put it in mydiary.
So if it's in there, I'm workingon it.
Um, so lots of prep.
So last month we had theEmerging Writers Festival, and
(09:07):
then this month, um.
People in Newcastle.
I'm gonna be books of the BOLOat Club Lan.
That sounds amazing.
On the 14th.
Yeah, it's, so, it's inconversation with Catherine
McLean, who's the director ofthe Hunter Writers Center.
And then I'm going to be at BlueMountains Writers Festival in
Canberra Writer's Festival.
So Canberra Writers Festival isfirst, um, and then the 22nd to
(09:29):
the 26th of October.
And then the uh, blue MountainsWriters Festival, which is.
31st of October to the 2nd ofNovember or thereabouts.
You gonna be busy has Yeah.
Yeah.
I've got like four books to readover the next two weeks, so.
Okay.
I'll get there.
I know, I'll, um, actually wewere talking about this in our
debut crew.
Do you have to read, if you'reon a panel with other writers at
(09:51):
a festival, do you have to readeveryone's books?
I like to.
Um, this time I, that's my,definitely my aim, but this time
there are some priorities for mebecause I'm moderating a panel
and, um, I'm doing a, like a twohander where it's just me and
another person, or Steve Minotactually at, at Blue Mountain.
So obviously we're gonna be inconversation with each other
(10:12):
about our books.
So.
And to, yeah.
Obviously I need to, I'vealready read his book, but I'm
gonna reread it to, you know,have an intelligent conversation
because I've been to eventswhere writers have made jokes
about not preparing, likeespecially the person, yeah.
I won't name names, but yeah.
Oh, so the interviewer.
(10:32):
The interviewers make made jokesabout, oh, I'm so underprepared,
and I'm like, uh, this is notgood.
Yeah, that's it.
Doesn't much confidence does it?
Tina Strachan (10:40):
It's a really thing.
Doesn't say, isn't it too,that's being easy, but
Natasha Rai (10:43):
also it doesn't show the respect to the people
who've like, given out theirtime and, and maybe paid money
for a ticket to come hearsomeone speak.
It's like, well,'cause that'swho you're doing it for really,
you know?
Yeah.
It's fun to interview anotherperson, but if you've got an
audience that they, they are theones who wanna hear something
about it.
Mm
Tina Strachan (11:02):
mm Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, you're an amazinginterviewer, Natasha.
We know that, so I'm sure thoseevents, I'm sure those events
are gonna be incredible.
I love the idea of books at thebolo.
I'm gonna start that here, Ithink on the Gold Coast.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (11:14):
Do
Tina Strachan (11:14):
it.
Do it.
Natasha Rai (11:15):
It sounds so cool.
Yeah, because you just go foryour dinner, like just book a
table and you go with your bookclub or your family and you just
have a great night and hearsomeone talk about a book.
What's a bowler?
A what?
You don't know what a bolo is.
Is that not a, I don't know.
Is it a Victorian thing?
I don't know.
I've never heard like, you know,like Like bowl?
A bowling bowl, like a bowling
Tina Strachan (11:35):
green.
Oh, I don't, and it's like therestauranty, it's like the
restauranty bit.
Yeah,
Natasha Rai (11:39):
like the bistro bit.
It's
Tina Strachan (11:41):
so, yeah.
Didn't
Natasha Rai (11:42):
have that in Melbourne.
Maybe they don't have outside.
Tina Strachan (11:46):
It's too rainy, it's too many gracious warnings.
Um, few got bowling greens,surely.
Madeleine Cleary (11:53):
Yeah.
I dunno.
Out of the bolo scene.
Yes.
That's it.
Well, we have,
Tina Strachan (12:00):
do you have barefoot bowls?
Yeah,
Natasha Rai (12:02):
yeah,
Tina Strachan (12:02):
yeah.
Okay.
Right.
Barefoot bowl.
I've never heard of what we'regonna make you do next time you
come up this way.
Natasha Rai (12:08):
Oh gosh.
There were a few in Canberrathat we did and they had bars
attached to it.
I don't
Tina Strachan (12:14):
remember.
Yes, that's what it is.
It's so, it's like the green andthen it's like the little indoor
bit where you, where you grab apub meal.
Yeah,
Natasha Rai (12:22):
maybe I'm just, yeah, maybe I'm just tired and
don't remember, but I'm, I don'tthink so.
So maybe it's not a Victorianthing.
I don't know.
Tina Strachan (12:29):
Mm.
Maybe that's where we need tohave our Christmas live show at
the bolo it all, it's all goingtogether.
You've
Madeleine Cleary (12:37):
gotta say in that accent, at the bowl, at the
bolo, at the, yeah, of course.
I'm also asking this on behalfof our international listeners.
Yes, of course.
Tina Strachan (12:45):
You're right.
You're right.
Apologies.
I don't know if they have themin Netherlands, barefoot, let us
know.
They def,
Natasha Rai (12:51):
they definitely, well, the Australians have taken
it to the UK so they, they'llrecognize it.
Of course, of course.
Maybe it's horrible Aussiething.
But anyway, so in Lincoln Shearand, uh, well, west Sussex,
they'll be all over the bolos.
Maybe, maybe, maybe not.
Tina Strachan (13:05):
But you know, with events.
So you was saying like, it is alot of prep, isn't it?
Like Yeah.
You know, people, you know, turnup to these things and maybe
don't realize that there's a lotof prep that goes into it.
So it's lots of fun, isn't it?
It's a really amazing time whenyou get there and you feel, um,
so privileged to be there and tobe chatting with someone.
But it's a lot of, it's a lot ofbackground work, isn't it?
(13:26):
Yeah.
For the, you know, hour or sothat you're up there for.
Natasha Rai (13:29):
Yeah, exactly.
But I mean, I, I do enjoy it.
It's just, um, when I said yesto these things, I hadn't fully
realized that they were gonna beso close together.
Mm-hmm.
And of course, you know, I'mstill working and haven't taken
any time off work, so I can'tafford to, so, and also I'm
trying to write.
I'm not trying to write, I'mwriting.
Um, so yeah, all of that is inthe mix too.
Mm-hmm.
(13:49):
Mm-hmm.
And I think, um, you kind ofunderestimate the physical, the
physicality of it, uh, becauseyou, you're traveling to
festival.
Yeah.
So it's not just the one hourthat you're there for, um,
you're in a different place, soyou're sleeping in a different
bed.
You don't exactly.
You get a lot, you are really,um, on a lot like a heightened
Yeah.
Buzzing.
Yeah.
(14:10):
It's a sensory overload, isn'tit?
Absolutely.
You are on, on, on, and, andit's not just for that one hour,
it's the, all the social stuffafterwards.
And um, and yeah, I find itdifficult to like sleep after
events.
Like really difficult.
Mm-hmm.
And not just festivals, but anyevents that I do, I'm just so
wired afterwards.
So yeah.
(14:30):
There is a physical toll, Ithink, to your body that you
can't underestimate.
Yeah, that's right.
But they're fun.
What about you, Tina?
Yeah, I'm fun.
Yeah.
How
Tina Strachan (14:39):
are
Natasha Rai (14:39):
you?
Tina Strachan (14:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've had a.
Interesting month too.
Um, I'm writing.
Oh, I'm editing actually.
So that's why I did wanna pickyour, your lady's brains about
your, um, your editing tips andtechniques.
But so it's, but it's otherwisebeen a relatively quieter month.
I mean, we've had schoolholidays here, so we've been.
Spent some time in Byron Bay anddown the beach and everything.
(15:01):
Um, uh, I went to, uh, BethanyLove Ridge's book launch for
Harper Wells Renegade TimelineOfficer, which was amazing and
incredible and was also her 40thbirthday.
So happy birthday Bethany.
Um, yes, that was really fun.
That was really nice.
And yeah, just got to catch upwith lots of, um, lots of the
(15:21):
Queensland, um, author crew,which was.
Great.
Um, but yeah, apart from allthat, just I've been editing
something that I realize now.
I started writing two years ago.
Um, oh yeah.
But I mean, I also wrote threebooks in, in between that, so
it's, it's taken me a while,but, um, it's, so I'm getting to
that point now.
(15:42):
I don't exactly know how manypages I have left Madeline, but
I think it's not, it's probablylike, um, only like eight.
Scenes left to edit.
Um, and then my plan was, um, myplan was then I was just going
(16:02):
to print it hard copy.
Mm-hmm.
Give it a read through and then,you know, make any edits on the
hard copy, fix that on the, onthe, on, you know, the Word
document and then, and that thatwas gonna be it.
And then I was gonna put a pinin it and then.
You know, do what I need to dowith it and take the next step
(16:23):
with it.
Um, because I have realized nowthat you've got a, otherwise
I'll keep tinkering.
I could tinker forever.
Right?
And but's, one thing I havelearned is to stop tinkering.
Madeleine Cleary (16:31):
I wouldn't even, like, I don't think I
would even print it out at thisstage.
I wouldn't do that until I'mhappy with.
The overall like until myeditors maybe looked at it and
had and had some structuralcomments and feedback.
'cause I feel like I tinker alot when I print it out and hard
copy.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(16:52):
Right.
And I think the tinkering is notgood.
I've just realized how well Itin.
It's so much with the butterflywomen before I submitted to
publishers, which I think isfine.
Yeah.
Because, you know, but now I'min a stage where I'm just like,
oh, is that where I wanna put mytime and effort?
Because this might all bedeleted.
Maybe I'm got PTSD from our, my,my structural edits.
Oh, I know
Tina Strachan (17:12):
what you mean.
To be honest though, I, I knowwhat you mean.
I'm not, I, I.
Hmm.
I am printing it out though totry and pick up some bigger
stuff, not necessarily thespelling mistakes and things,
uh, which I will catch as well.
I think I just need it off thescreen.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's just blurring intoone.
Now I need it off the screen.
I need it printed out.
I need to sit down with my pieceof paper and my, and my pen and
(17:33):
my highlighter and um, just.
Just look at it that way.
And because there's a, there's afew things with this one that
I've had to change over thecourse of time, like, um, which
I don't often do, but I did haveto think about this one a little
bit more.
And so I think there's somemaybe consistency things that I
need to check for.
And I need to just read it in aflow like, like it is a book.
(17:56):
I just need to read.
I mean, it's a book, do you knowwhat I mean?
But read it in a, almost like ina hard copy instead of the
screen, because it's just, youprocess it differently.
Do you think, Tash, you're notsure I get that because that's
exactly
Natasha Rai (18:06):
what I do, so yeah.
I do, I write a draft.
I don't actually go back andread over it while I'm writing
it.
I just write, when I finish it,I print it out and I read it,
like you said, for the flow.
And I literally make notes as Igo and I will, and I refuse to
edit anything.
I just make the notes like, thisbit needs this, this bit, but I
(18:27):
just keep reading.
Tina Strachan (18:29):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Natasha Rai (18:30):
Until I get to the end.
So I find that really usefulbecause then because it's
printed out.
Um, and I'm just making thenotes of what I need to beef up
or take out because it's not onthe screen.
I can't do that work yet untilI've read the whole thing and
got the idea of the shape of it.
So I find that really helpfulfor me'cause of the way I.
(18:51):
To my process, like my writing.
Yeah.
Gosh, I admire you for that.
That's, that's an amazingwillpower because you'd be so
tempted to just jump on yourlaptop and start tinkering when
you come across something,you're like, oh no, I need to
fix that.
But no, you can't.
'cause you're looking at bigpicture kind of flow stuff.
Mm.
That's interesting.
Tina Strachan (19:11):
I have, and I mean, and everybody, everybody
works differently.
Everybody's brain worksdifferently.
Exactly.
Every, everybody's flow isdifferently.
But, um, yeah, I like that.
And I have heard before, uh, Ithink it was an actual editor,
um.
Speak.
Yeah.
Speaking about what they do, andI think she said, you know, I
read it once and I just read thewhole thing and I'm, I'm not
(19:32):
looking for spelling mistakes,I'm not looking for grammatical
errors.
I'm not looking for any other,I'm just looking to be like, is
this story here in my head?
Is it flowing in my head and hasit, is there any major issues
with this overall story?
Cool.
Great.
That I make those notes and thenI come back.
Actually, it might have evenbeen my editor that made, made
notes about it and then I comeback and she's like, then I look
for like all the.
Smaller stuff, but if theoverall story's great, that's
(19:54):
cool.
We don't need to do like thosebig structural things.
But then I come back and I gothrough and I look for that
smaller stuff.
So it's almost like multipledifferent ways of looking at the
same document.
I get that.
That's, I do that.
Rebecca Grant (20:12):
Hello, I'm Rebecca Grant, and I'm excited
to share with you my very firstpicture book, Potion Commotion.
It's illustrated by the talentedNina Nil and published by Affirm
Press.
It tells the story of Nel theWitch, who with the help of her
dragon, creates a magicalpotion, but things go wrong when
she makes a mistake with thespell.
(20:34):
And her mixed up potion causes achaotic commotion.
A bubble rises from the pot andstarts to trap a whole cast of
characters inside of it.
And as the bubble grows, ittraps more and more creatures, a
mermaid, a ghost, even a giantsqueezes in until finally, it
captures Nel and the dragon.
(20:55):
When Nel waves a wand and popsthe bubble, the true extent of
the commotion is revealed.
But you'll need to read the bookto find out what that is.
Potion Commotion is written incumulative rhyme.
Building up throughout thestory, creating a whirlwind of
magical mayhem.
We've included a recipe at theend of the book for those little
(21:15):
readers who would like to createtheir own special potion.
Potion.
Commotion is out now, and I hopeyou love it as much as I do.
Madeleine Cleary (21:28):
Well, Tina, you'll be proud because, um, so
I wrote my draft zero and thenas I've been editing it, I've
been summarizing each chapter ina spreadsheet.
Ah, yes.
And noting a spreadsheet.
I'm spreadsheet.
So proud of you.
You Excel spreadsheet.
I know you would be, I've got atimeline in there.
For each, each chapter what,what, what, what timeline is.
(21:49):
And I also have the different,'cause it's a murder mystery.
I have all the different plotlines in a, in their own
separate columns.
So every time it hits one of theplot lines, the red, red, you
know, herrings or whatever.
Or write yes.
About what that is.
Perfect.
My gosh.
And so then I can see, oh mygosh, structurally, I know this
is cool.
I can then see structurally.
(22:11):
Where I've left it too long,like I haven't mentioned mm-hmm.
A particular thread
Tina Strachan (22:15):
mm-hmm.
For a
Natasha Rai (22:16):
while.
And so then I know I have to goand insert something, you know,
and I can see the flow of the,the reveal of the information.
Tina Strachan (22:22):
Yes.
Madeleine Cleary (22:23):
Um, I learn this from Ruby.
Yes.
Um, my publisher mm-hmm.
Because she does this.
Mm.
And she did this for thebutterfly woman for me.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Like, she sent it to me and Iwas like, this is brilliant.
Like, I, I am gonna do this.
So, so good.
I can't do it for my draftzeroes because that's full
creative flow.
Yes, and it's really helped me,like there have been so many
(22:44):
plot points and plot holes andthreads that have gone nowhere,
and I've figured that outbecause I'm doing it.
Ah,
Tina Strachan (22:51):
so yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And you know what, from that,you will, you might find the
next time there's less potholesand there's less, you know,
things that you've missed.
'cause you're, they're learningit and you're innately feeling
it as you're, as you're goingthrough.
Oh, that's incredible.
That's so good.
And you know, I even use thatbecause like you were saying,
yes.
Not for your Dr.
Zero draft.
'cause that's just getting thestory out.
Um, I've even used it for thingslike, um.
(23:17):
If there's a thread of a storypotentially or a character that
I'm trying to, that maybe isn'tbeefed up up enough, I've even
like when I've gone through,noted where I've put that
particular character or notedwhere I've.
Um, taken that particular plotline, even if it's a small one.
(23:37):
And because, you know, sometimesin your head you, you think it's
in there quite clearly and quitestrongly, but then on the paper
it's not, for whatever reason,you just haven't spent the time
to put it down or you've takenit out through other edits or
something.
Mm-hmm.
And just not realize that now itjust doesn't feel like a strong
plot line anymore.
But if, but even just liketicking off, just even just
basic, yes, I included it here,or no, I didn't.
(23:58):
And also vice versa.
Sometimes I think, have Irepeated that?
A couple of times like, have Ihave, I said this same thing too
many times and just kind ofworked it out, doing it that
way.
So yeah, it's, it's helpful.
That's really good.
Madeleine Cleary (24:12):
Spreadsheets, oh my gosh.
Spreadsheets.
So, and writing things out.
Handwriting I find hard areeasy, like when I've got plot.
Hold.
Yes, yes.
I figure out, I just starthandwriting the answer and then
it just comes to, it just comes,it flows.
Tina Strachan (24:27):
Yes.
Natasha Rai (24:27):
I dunno.
Hundred percent.
Tina Strachan (24:28):
Magic.
Magic.
It's a connection between thepen and the paper and your
brain.
It's
Natasha Rai (24:34):
crazy, it's
Tina Strachan (24:35):
wild.
Um, it's a creative flow.
Natasha Rai (24:38):
I do have an editing fail story though.
Tina Strachan (24:40):
Um mm-hmm.
Share.
I I did.
Please.
I was just about to ask you.
'cause editing's hard, you know,and you, you know, you do it
yourself.
Look, we're talking about themultiple times that we are doing
it, and then if you're publishedor you're paying editor, you
get.
Editor to do it.
And they run, they do the wholeread.
And then you get, you have atype set that reads it.
You have a line editor thatreads it, your publisher reads
it, maybe another editor readsit, you read it again 13 times.
(25:03):
You read it in type set, youread it in a hard copy, and then
it goes to print.
And then sometimes though, youknow, do you get, you miss
something, you miss something.
And,
Madeleine Cleary (25:13):
you know, um, yeah, I found that out today.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm glad I, I actually, um, Isaid to the, sorry I had a, um.
A message today from a readerand she, she said to me, um,
loved the book however, and Iwas like, oh, good start.
Good start.
Um, I found three minor errorsin, in the text.
(25:35):
She's got an eagle eye.
And so, uh, she sent me a photoof all of the errors and she
circled them.
Oh.
Um, and there were things like,there was one where there was an
extra is, you know, oh, um,there was one where I should
have said.
Unannounced, but it was writtenannounced, so the article was
(25:56):
missed.
Um, and then there was anotherone where it should have been
his sister, but I'd written hersister, so, oh yes.
And see, I've
Tina Strachan (26:05):
read your book.
I didn't pick up on any of that.
Well, I'm
Natasha Rai (26:07):
glad
Tina Strachan (26:08):
she should be an editor.
She should be a copy
Madeleine Cleary (26:10):
editor.
I know.
It was amazing.
So anyway, it was very timelybecause, um, in exciting news,
the butterfly women is going tobe format, which.
For those who know.
That's awesome.
Yeah, it's really cool.
And it's, feels like it's comingaround very quickly, but it's
gonna be so B format for thosewho don't know, it's the smaller
size of the book.
(26:30):
So there's the trade, which isthe larger one, and then it's
going to a smaller format.
And they do that, I think,'causeit's more cost effective.
So yeah, it's, it's cheaper.
It's like 22.99 instead of34.99.
Um, and it'll be released 31stof December at the end of the
year, which is gonna be cool.
But, um, I was able to forwardthose, um, errors to my, to the
(26:51):
editor who's managing the Bformat and he's like, yep,
you've got time.
Don't, no worry.
So he went and changed the typeset today, so, so that's good.
It was good.
Oh, really?
Just like that.
Oh, cool.
That's so good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So able to pick it up.
Um, and I mean, like I said tothe lady, I was like, oh, thank
you.
Like I'm really appreciative ofit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I also said that this isalso proof that it's not AI
(27:13):
generators.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tina Strachan (27:17):
Oh wow.
So I think, thank you Eagle Eyereader for I know on that and
you know, there would bemistakes.
I'm certain of it in everysingle book that's published.
Of course there Isly, I've seenmajor ones like in
Madeleine Cleary (27:30):
some books, but I mean like, it's just it,
you can't help it.
You've and I, for those whodon't know what the process is,
like the type, you get this typeset.
Which is the final proof in APDF.
So it's not in a Word document,it's in A PDF.
You're making changes by addingnotes, like little comments.
You, you can't make changes tothe text, and so someone then
(27:53):
needs to put those comments intothe type set.
So it's not like you can trackchanges or anything.
It is really
Tina Strachan (28:01):
difficult.
It's really, especially ifyou're doing like, um, full, I,
I use a lot of commas and, andsometimes I like take'em out and
if you're literally going injust to, that you have to zoom
into that one little full stopor comma and then like highlight
it, but you're crossing it outat the same time.
But when you're crossing out afull stop that like full stops,
it's so tiny, they don't go andsee the cross out.
(28:23):
It's, and my computer always hasa bit of a.
Meltdown when I'm doing itbecause it gets really slow.
Because there's literallythousands of notes.
Yes.
In in the, in the song.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, yeah.
So it's tricky.
But I've heard, um, there's somepeople that still do it on hard
copy, don't they?
There's been some people in theday crew that have had hard copy
Natasha Rai (28:42):
Yeah.
Tina Strachan (28:42):
And they, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Do,
Natasha Rai (28:44):
yeah.
There has,
Tina Strachan (28:45):
hasn't it, Natasha?
Yeah.
And write it out and send itback, I believe.
Or scan it and send it back.
Wow.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (28:53):
I do love it anyway.
So have you guys found any areasin your books or is it just me
so far?
Tina Strachan (29:00):
I don't think I've read the full books.
Well, I had, I don't know, haveyou read your books?
One's told you no one sinceyou've actually had a print one?
No, no one's told me.
I have not read my book.
No.
No, no.
Um, no one's told me, but youknow.
Feel free to share it so I canfix it please.
Um, but I'm certain of it, butI've certainly written, um,
things for work.
I write a lot of technicaldocuments for work and we have a
(29:23):
very.
Well distributed technicaldocument that I was in charge of
doing the full edit.
I pretty much wrote most of it,but did the, you know, meant to,
you know, final sign offs andall those things, and it was
three years later we had a newstaff member and they read it
for the first time and they'relike.
You know that this is wrong, andit's just like, oh my God,
really like the amount of peoplethat have read this.
(29:43):
And we just, just, thiscompletely new person with new
fresh eyes was just like thatpointed out, this massive error
that none of us ever, ever saw.
So yeah, it happens all thetime.
Mm-hmm.
Fresh eyes, that's the, the keyI think.
Yeah.
Okay.
So ladies, um, if you have onetop tip then for, for editing
(30:05):
woes, um, what would it be?
What have you got for usNatasha?
Natasha Rai (30:09):
Okay.
My top tip is, um, when you aredoing your final, final, final
proofread, print the whole thingout and use a ruler to literally
go line by line reading everysingle word out loud.
And if you find that you arereading really fast, you've
(30:31):
gotta go back to the start ofthe sentence and slow it down so
that you're reading every singleword.
Mm-hmm.
I found at that late stage twoor three errors and you know, as
we've just said, so many peoplehad read it like there was a
character name that was wrongand so many people had missed
(30:53):
it, including me.
'cause I've read it so manytimes.
And, and when read it out loud,you can get a sense of.
Not only the mistakes, butthings like repeat words, which
are so easy to skip over, likeis, is you know, how you said
there was an extra Is Madeline.
So, um, yeah, that's my top tip.
(31:13):
So save that till the very endor the very last time you can
possibly make a change.
And that includes if you arelike, if, if it's not for a
publisher and you're submittingto a competition.
Or is submitting to a publisher.
My top tip is do that justbefore you submit so that if
there is something you can fixit.
Tina Strachan (31:34):
Mm-hmm.
I like that.
Yeah.
Getting down to the nittygritty.
What about you, Madeline?
Um.
So, yeah, I
Madeleine Cleary (31:41):
agree with Natasha and actually I did do
that.
So I think my top tip would beum,'cause I thought that, I
remember going through theproofing process and I actually,
the man, my manuscript went backto structurals in the middle of
the final proof.
So I'd done the final proof andthen it came back to me because
they'd noticed somethingstructural in it.
(32:01):
And so I had to make changes inthe type set.
So then I had to go throughanother proofing process.
So I was pretty exhausted Ithink by the end of it.
Um, and sort of tearing my hairout.
And I remember at the timethinking the worst possible
thing that can ever happen isfor someone to pick up an error
and,'cause I know it's on me.
But the funny thing is, is whenit actually happened, when
(32:22):
someone did pick up these minorerrors, I actually was like, oh,
I'm okay with it.
So I would say that.
Don't.
If you're a, a debut writer fornext year and you're freaking
out listening to this, it's notsuch a big of a deal.
Yeah.
It's so not a big deal.
No.
So don't stress too much aboutit.
I mean, do everything you canpossibly do to pick up every
(32:46):
single thing you can.
And that's, I, and I know thatI, I did that.
But when it does happen, it'sactually not that bad.
Tina Strachan (32:53):
So that's my tip.
Natasha Rai (32:53):
Yeah.
Tina Strachan (32:54):
What about, there's a point, there is a
point where you just can't seeit.
Yeah, exactly.
Natasha Rai (32:58):
You cannot,
Tina Strachan (32:58):
yeah.
And you're reading the story,but it's just all, it's like
it's already in your head, soyou Exactly.
Reading the words like
Natasha Rai (33:05):
500 times.
You're like, please let thisend.
I know you are like, this is theworst book ever.
Tina Strachan (33:11):
I love you my child,
Natasha Rai (33:12):
but please, I never
Tina Strachan (33:13):
wanna see you again.
Oh, so what about me?
Um, I.
Uh, yes, I agree with all yourediting.
Wonderful advice.
Um, but one that I justremembered was something that
was shared with us at aconference recently by an
editor, and she, what she doesis she reads it back to front.
(33:33):
Oh God.
She starts from, and this would,this is so clearly this is not
for, um, for, uh, flow orstructural'cause that would be
weird.
No, just for, if you're reallyconcerned about.
Natasha Rai (33:46):
Um,
Tina Strachan (33:46):
can I just ask,
Natasha Rai (33:47):
when you say back to front, do you mean like
chapter wise?
Like you read the last chapteror literally sentence level back
to front.
Uh,
Tina Strachan (33:54):
page level.
Back to front.
So start on the last page.
Natasha Rai (33:57):
Oh, okay.
Tina Strachan (33:57):
Read.
So, so her theory is, is thatyou are not just.
Just re looking over the wordsand your brain is filling in the
gaps.
'cause you know what's comingnext and you kind of do,'cause
you, you've got one page and soyou kind of get it, but then you
go back to the next page and it,the storyline's all modeled up.
So the words should sort, sortof, kind of, oh, jump out at
you.
Like, it's like they cancompletely different.
(34:19):
You can't.
I like that.
Yeah.
There you go.
So you can do your ruler trickback to front.
Love it.
I mean, you could de sentenceupside down as well.
T just get everything.
Madeleine Cleary (34:32):
Catherine, you know, Catherine Collette,
actually her advice was, don'tuse a ruler because you can see
the words below.
She suggested that's why you usea wooden ruler.
Oh, wouldn't, well, she, shejust, just suggest a piece of
paper so it just completelyblocks out the entire page.
So your own Oh yeah.
You could do that.
Yeah.
That that was her at top tip.
Not sure if that's useful ornot.
I think I broke my ruler, so Idid have to go to a page, like a
(34:52):
paper,
Tina Strachan (34:53):
anything really.
Just yeah.
To cover.
Just
Natasha Rai (34:56):
anything.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh,
Tina Strachan (34:57):
that's editing.
Editing.
That's amazing.
Uh, thank you ladies for yourtips.
I just wanted to have one lastlittle shout out.
Um, that this month is actuallydyslexia awareness month.
So, you know, especially withall this talk about editing and
using rulers and things to readis sometimes that's.
A tip.
There's special rulers forpeople with dyslexia, but a lot
of people don't know this, butsome books are actually printed
(35:19):
in formats that make it easierfor people with dyslexia to
read.
So, um, both my books that areout, both the Wild Zoo books are
printed in this format and youcan get it at the libraries as
well.
So if, um, you know, anyonewho's, um, has dyslexia or
struggling to read a little bit,um, this can be helpful.
So there's quite a few titlesand you can check out your local
(35:40):
libraries, uh, for them.
Natasha Rai (35:42):
Wonderful.
Tina Strachan (35:43):
Amazing.
Madeleine Cleary (35:44):
And we should also do a one last shout out as
well to our Patreon supporters,our patrons.
Thank you so much for supportingus.
Um, it means the world.
And, um, yeah, just a littlespecial shout out to Christine
Newell who has been on ourpodcast, and thank you,
Christine has supporting thepodcast.
So thank you, Christine.
Thank you.
See you next month ladies.
(36:06):
Bye.
Bye.
Tina Strachan (36:08):
Thank you for listening to the book Deal
podcast.
We're able to bring you theseweekly writerly chats because of
our amazing patrons.
Join the TBD family by becominga member of our Patreon
community@patreon.com slash thebook deal podcast.
And if you love the pod, pleasegive us a rating or review.
And don't forget to follow us onInstagram and Facebook.
This is the Book Deal podcast where
you will discover the inspiringstories behind your favorite
books.
We interview seasoned and debutauthors, as well as publishing
industry professionals to bringyou the best tips and advice on
how to get that elusive bookdeal.
So no matter what's.
Stage of writing your at.
We've got you covered.
(00:29):
I'm Tina Strachan.
I'm Madeline Cleary.
And I'm Natasha Rai.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one
deal at a time.
The book Deal podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners, the land and waters,which it's recorded on and pays
respect to their elders past,present, and emerging.
Tina Strachan (00:56):
Hello everybody.
My name is Tina Strachan and I'mso excited to be here with my
most wonderful co-hosts,Madeline Cleary and Natasha Rai.
Hello?
Hi.
Hi.
Oh gosh, ladies, it's been awhole nother month since we've
caught up and we've all beensuper duper busy, and I miss you
girls.
Natasha Rai (01:16):
Aw, I miss you too.
We haven't all caught up, thethree of us in person yet.
Tina Strachan (01:20):
No,
Natasha Rai (01:21):
that's good.
Hang on.
What
Tina Strachan (01:23):
have we not?
Oh my gosh, no.
Oh, that's shocking.
That's horrifying.
Oh, this is gonna have to be a,um, yes.
That's gonna be a monumentaloccasion where we do do that.
And we might have some newsabout that maybe in our next
step.
Natasha Rai (01:37):
Oh, I hope so.
Oh, I
Tina Strachan (01:38):
hope so.
Maybe we can put it out.
Madeleine Cleary (01:40):
Should we put it out to the podcast?
Gods?
If you have venue in anywhere,really we go anywhere.
We'll go anywhere that doespodcast live episodes in
December where we really wannado a podcast live episode for
Christmas.
So if you know a venue thatwants to host us for a small
fee, please let us know.
Tina Strachan (02:02):
Please, please let us know.
And then you can all come alongand ask us all the questions
that you have about writing andpublishing.
And we'll maybe, hopefully havesome, some advice to give.
Yeah, or we'll just have lots offun anyway.
Natasha Rai (02:14):
We'll get lots of writers in and we can sell lots
of books for Christmas.
That should also be a thing.
We do a Christmas market,
Tina Strachan (02:21):
Christmas shopping, that's it.
Oh, well, hopefully.
Yes.
So definitely let us know.
Reach out.
But um, apart from that, yeah,we're just gonna have a, a bit
of a chat, a bit of a catch up.
I really wanna know where yougirls are.
Are at, um, checking back insince we chatted last month.
Um, and then I also wanted toask some questions about editing
(02:41):
because I think we're all deepin editing at the moment in
various different stages.
Mm-hmm.
Um, as well as writing new words'cause we like to do a few
different things.
Um, so yeah, so I have somequestions about that.
Um, but first, you know, what Iwanted to do, um, ladies, I
don't know if you've looked atthis, but you know, we use a
buzzsprout, right?
(03:02):
For our.
For hosting our podcastepisodes.
And they have this really coolthing that I actually just love
looking at, which I can't findnow.
And, and Tina is
Madeleine Cleary (03:12):
our stats person.
She's always telling us thestats and Yeah.
Cash and I just have no idea.
Tina Strachan (03:17):
Yeah,
Natasha Rai (03:17):
I know.
We just go, yay.
Every time.
Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan (03:20):
I love, I love the stats.
We know this.
I love a spreadsheet.
Um, I have a new one to tell yougirls about later as well.
Oh my gosh.
So you get excited.
Um, okay.
So.
But in our app, it's really cool'cause it tells us the new
locations of like the, the, thelast five new locations of
people that are listening to thepodcast.
Oh.
(03:40):
I just find it so interestingand so cool.
It also tells you what they'relistening to.
So, um, shout out to.
Our listeners in, and I'm, I'mcertain I'm gonna say this
wrong, you girls also, we alsoget points for whoever's
actually been to this city.
Madeleine Cleary (03:55):
Okay.
Oh, I love the game.
Oh, here we go.
Yeah,
Tina Strachan (03:57):
because we're all quite well traveled, right?
I, I get zero points for thisfirst one.
You have to guess where this oneis actually, uh, Marson in earth
trick.
I have
Natasha Rai (04:09):
no idea.
Tina Strachan (04:10):
No.
Is that
Natasha Rai (04:11):
in Germany?
Tina Strachan (04:12):
No, I know.
I see where you're going withthat though.
Uh, it's in the Netherlands.
Madeleine Cleary (04:16):
Oh, course.
Yeah.
So shout out to
Tina Strachan (04:18):
our Netherlands listeners.
Natasha Rai (04:19):
Hello?
Sorry.
I said Germany and notNetherlands.
Tina Strachan (04:23):
It looks beautiful.
I actually Googled it, um, andthey were listening to your most
recent episode, uh, Natasha,with Angie Faye Martin.
Aw.
Aw.
For listening.
Yeah, we had lots, lots of themtoday.
Also listening to that episodewas listeners in Worthing, west
Sussex.
Whoa.
Anyone, anyone been there?
I think I have been there.
(04:44):
Mm.
Not points for Natasha.
You'll be done.
Natasha, you're winning.
I know.
And, uh, surely in Lancaster.
Oh.
Anyone been there?
I've,
Natasha Rai (04:54):
I've, I've, I've been to Lancashire too, so, I
mean, well, I lived in the UKfor quite a while, so.
Tina Strachan (04:58):
Okay.
Right.
Winner.
Winner.
All right.
Well, has anyone been toClearfield in Utah?
Natasha Rai (05:04):
No, I've
Tina Strachan (05:04):
been to Utah.
Me.
Well, there you go.
So you do get a point for that.
And they were listening to HollyBrom's, um, episode that we did.
Excellent.
Um, a couple months ago.
Um, yeah, so shout out to allour listeners overseas.
It's so cool to see those newcities pop up and, yeah.
It's just great that it's, thatit's getting out there, getting
(05:24):
around the world.
It's really cool.
So that's my stats update.
I'm not doing
Natasha Rai (05:28):
an international trip one time book deal podcast
on the road.
Tina Strachan (05:31):
Oh yes, that'd be good.
Wouldn't that?
Uh, the dream we can keepdreaming, dreaming.
But, uh, okay, so I wanted tocheck in with you ladies, see
where you're at.
Uh, it's been another busymonth, and, um, Madeline, last
time we spoke to you, you were,or still had another busy month.
You've been pretty nonstop.
(05:51):
Um, and the, the juggle ofhealth and workload was sort of
taking a toll.
Um, we chatted a lot last timeabout, um.
Uh, you know, burnout or theburnout.
So how are, how are you going,are you feeling a bit better?
How has it been?
Madeleine Cleary (06:08):
Oh, it, the burn the burnout episode was
very timely for me.
Mm-hmm.
I think while, while we'rediscussing it, I was probably
very, very close to burnout, ifnot at burnout.
When I said that to my friend, Ithink a few nights ago, um, at
book club, I said, oh, yeah, Iwas close to Ben.
She's like.
Mads, you were at burnout.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think, um, yeah, so I, Ihave been quite sick.
(06:31):
I've just been, you know,getting repeat things, prolonged
sicknesses, and I think that's asign for your body to say you
have to rest.
So, um, yeah, it hasn't beengreat.
And.
Uh, I think as well with thewriting, I had this vision in my
mind that the manuscript wouldbe done and edited by the end of
September.
And of course now it's October,it is not done.
(06:53):
Um, it's getting there.
It's getting there, but it's notdone.
'cause I just, you know, evenwhen I'm sick, like I still keep
pushing and working and I'm surea lot of writers understand that
the lure too.
In patience and listening toyour body, um, and all things,
(07:15):
all the advice that Tashprovided in our last, like,
catch up on author burnout.
So I really had to pay attentionand listen to it.
So it has been difficult, but,um, I feel like I'm on the other
side.
I've, you know, took a, a bit oftime off work and writing and
just yeah, had some.
Just.
Watching crappy movies, which Inever get to do, and reading
(07:38):
books and sitting on the couchfor a bit and I felt better,
but, mm.
Um, I mean, that's just atemporary measure.
I have to sort of make changesnow in my lifestyle, I think,
to, to avoid it.
But yeah, I've got a few moreevents coming up in October, and
then after that though, it.
Really nice and quiet.
So I think I'll be able to Yeah,find some space.
(07:59):
Um, so yeah, if you are inSydney, I think it'll, it'll be
on the night, I think the daythat this comes out.
So if you're in Sydney, 16th ofOctober, I'll be there.
And then I'm in Ballarat on theThursday, the 23rd of October
for an event.
If you're in Ballarat with HollyBauer, actually, who she's gonna
be.
My in convo partner and thenDandenong Literary Festival as
(08:19):
well, which is just up the road,which will be really fun.
So I've got lots of like, funthings to look forward to.
So, yeah.
And then in terms of thewriting, um, I have 17 pages
left to edit of Oh, draft.
Oh, so close.
So close.
I'm excited.
So yes, that's, that's prettymuch where I'm What about you
(08:40):
Tash, though?
How has your last month been?
Uh, uh,
Natasha Rai (08:44):
yeah, it's been so busy.
Um, and so I've, I mentioned itin my substack today that the
time boxing has really helped mebecause, um, now I'm not as
stressed when I don't get tosomething.
'cause I haven't put it in mydiary.
So if it's in there, I'm workingon it.
Um, so lots of prep.
So last month we had theEmerging Writers Festival, and
(09:07):
then this month, um.
People in Newcastle.
I'm gonna be books of the BOLOat Club Lan.
That sounds amazing.
On the 14th.
Yeah, it's, so, it's inconversation with Catherine
McLean, who's the director ofthe Hunter Writers Center.
And then I'm going to be at BlueMountains Writers Festival in
Canberra Writer's Festival.
So Canberra Writers Festival isfirst, um, and then the 22nd to
(09:29):
the 26th of October.
And then the uh, blue MountainsWriters Festival, which is.
31st of October to the 2nd ofNovember or thereabouts.
You gonna be busy has Yeah.
Yeah.
I've got like four books to readover the next two weeks, so.
Okay.
I'll get there.
I know, I'll, um, actually wewere talking about this in our
debut crew.
Do you have to read, if you'reon a panel with other writers at
(09:51):
a festival, do you have to readeveryone's books?
I like to.
Um, this time I, that's my,definitely my aim, but this time
there are some priorities for mebecause I'm moderating a panel
and, um, I'm doing a, like a twohander where it's just me and
another person, or Steve Minotactually at, at Blue Mountain.
So obviously we're gonna be inconversation with each other
(10:12):
about our books.
So.
And to, yeah.
Obviously I need to, I'vealready read his book, but I'm
gonna reread it to, you know,have an intelligent conversation
because I've been to eventswhere writers have made jokes
about not preparing, likeespecially the person, yeah.
I won't name names, but yeah.
Oh, so the interviewer.
(10:32):
The interviewers make made jokesabout, oh, I'm so underprepared,
and I'm like, uh, this is notgood.
Yeah, that's it.
Doesn't much confidence does it?
Tina Strachan (10:40):
It's a really thing.
Doesn't say, isn't it too,that's being easy, but
Natasha Rai (10:43):
also it doesn't show the respect to the people
who've like, given out theirtime and, and maybe paid money
for a ticket to come hearsomeone speak.
It's like, well,'cause that'swho you're doing it for really,
you know?
Yeah.
It's fun to interview anotherperson, but if you've got an
audience that they, they are theones who wanna hear something
about it.
Mm
Tina Strachan (11:02):
mm Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, you're an amazinginterviewer, Natasha.
We know that, so I'm sure thoseevents, I'm sure those events
are gonna be incredible.
I love the idea of books at thebolo.
I'm gonna start that here, Ithink on the Gold Coast.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (11:14):
Do
Tina Strachan (11:14):
it.
Do it.
Natasha Rai (11:15):
It sounds so cool.
Yeah, because you just go foryour dinner, like just book a
table and you go with your bookclub or your family and you just
have a great night and hearsomeone talk about a book.
What's a bowler?
A what?
You don't know what a bolo is.
Is that not a, I don't know.
Is it a Victorian thing?
I don't know.
I've never heard like, you know,like Like bowl?
A bowling bowl, like a bowling
Tina Strachan (11:35):
green.
Oh, I don't, and it's like therestauranty, it's like the
restauranty bit.
Yeah,
Natasha Rai (11:39):
like the bistro bit.
It's
Tina Strachan (11:41):
so, yeah.
Didn't
Natasha Rai (11:42):
have that in Melbourne.
Maybe they don't have outside.
Tina Strachan (11:46):
It's too rainy, it's too many gracious warnings.
Um, few got bowling greens,surely.
Madeleine Cleary (11:53):
Yeah.
I dunno.
Out of the bolo scene.
Yes.
That's it.
Well, we have,
Tina Strachan (12:00):
do you have barefoot bowls?
Yeah,
Natasha Rai (12:02):
yeah,
Tina Strachan (12:02):
yeah.
Okay.
Right.
Barefoot bowl.
I've never heard of what we'regonna make you do next time you
come up this way.
Natasha Rai (12:08):
Oh gosh.
There were a few in Canberrathat we did and they had bars
attached to it.
I don't
Tina Strachan (12:14):
remember.
Yes, that's what it is.
It's so, it's like the green andthen it's like the little indoor
bit where you, where you grab apub meal.
Yeah,
Natasha Rai (12:22):
maybe I'm just, yeah, maybe I'm just tired and
don't remember, but I'm, I don'tthink so.
So maybe it's not a Victorianthing.
I don't know.
Tina Strachan (12:29):
Mm.
Maybe that's where we need tohave our Christmas live show at
the bolo it all, it's all goingtogether.
You've
Madeleine Cleary (12:37):
gotta say in that accent, at the bowl, at the
bolo, at the, yeah, of course.
I'm also asking this on behalfof our international listeners.
Yes, of course.
Tina Strachan (12:45):
You're right.
You're right.
Apologies.
I don't know if they have themin Netherlands, barefoot, let us
know.
They def,
Natasha Rai (12:51):
they definitely, well, the Australians have taken
it to the UK so they, they'llrecognize it.
Of course, of course.
Maybe it's horrible Aussiething.
But anyway, so in Lincoln Shearand, uh, well, west Sussex,
they'll be all over the bolos.
Maybe, maybe, maybe not.
Tina Strachan (13:05):
But you know, with events.
So you was saying like, it is alot of prep, isn't it?
Like Yeah.
You know, people, you know, turnup to these things and maybe
don't realize that there's a lotof prep that goes into it.
So it's lots of fun, isn't it?
It's a really amazing time whenyou get there and you feel, um,
so privileged to be there and tobe chatting with someone.
But it's a lot of, it's a lot ofbackground work, isn't it?
(13:26):
Yeah.
For the, you know, hour or sothat you're up there for.
Natasha Rai (13:29):
Yeah, exactly.
But I mean, I, I do enjoy it.
It's just, um, when I said yesto these things, I hadn't fully
realized that they were gonna beso close together.
Mm-hmm.
And of course, you know, I'mstill working and haven't taken
any time off work, so I can'tafford to, so, and also I'm
trying to write.
I'm not trying to write, I'mwriting.
Um, so yeah, all of that is inthe mix too.
Mm-hmm.
(13:49):
Mm-hmm.
And I think, um, you kind ofunderestimate the physical, the
physicality of it, uh, becauseyou, you're traveling to
festival.
Yeah.
So it's not just the one hourthat you're there for, um,
you're in a different place, soyou're sleeping in a different
bed.
You don't exactly.
You get a lot, you are really,um, on a lot like a heightened
Yeah.
Buzzing.
Yeah.
(14:10):
It's a sensory overload, isn'tit?
Absolutely.
You are on, on, on, and, andit's not just for that one hour,
it's the, all the social stuffafterwards.
And um, and yeah, I find itdifficult to like sleep after
events.
Like really difficult.
Mm-hmm.
And not just festivals, but anyevents that I do, I'm just so
wired afterwards.
So yeah.
(14:30):
There is a physical toll, Ithink, to your body that you
can't underestimate.
Yeah, that's right.
But they're fun.
What about you, Tina?
Yeah, I'm fun.
Yeah.
How
Tina Strachan (14:39):
are
Natasha Rai (14:39):
you?
Tina Strachan (14:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've had a.
Interesting month too.
Um, I'm writing.
Oh, I'm editing actually.
So that's why I did wanna pickyour, your lady's brains about
your, um, your editing tips andtechniques.
But so it's, but it's otherwisebeen a relatively quieter month.
I mean, we've had schoolholidays here, so we've been.
Spent some time in Byron Bay anddown the beach and everything.
(15:01):
Um, uh, I went to, uh, BethanyLove Ridge's book launch for
Harper Wells Renegade TimelineOfficer, which was amazing and
incredible and was also her 40thbirthday.
So happy birthday Bethany.
Um, yes, that was really fun.
That was really nice.
And yeah, just got to catch upwith lots of, um, lots of the
(15:21):
Queensland, um, author crew,which was.
Great.
Um, but yeah, apart from allthat, just I've been editing
something that I realize now.
I started writing two years ago.
Um, oh yeah.
But I mean, I also wrote threebooks in, in between that, so
it's, it's taken me a while,but, um, it's, so I'm getting to
that point now.
(15:42):
I don't exactly know how manypages I have left Madeline, but
I think it's not, it's probablylike, um, only like eight.
Scenes left to edit.
Um, and then my plan was, um, myplan was then I was just going
(16:02):
to print it hard copy.
Mm-hmm.
Give it a read through and then,you know, make any edits on the
hard copy, fix that on the, onthe, on, you know, the Word
document and then, and that thatwas gonna be it.
And then I was gonna put a pinin it and then.
You know, do what I need to dowith it and take the next step
(16:23):
with it.
Um, because I have realized nowthat you've got a, otherwise
I'll keep tinkering.
I could tinker forever.
Right?
And but's, one thing I havelearned is to stop tinkering.
Madeleine Cleary (16:31):
I wouldn't even, like, I don't think I
would even print it out at thisstage.
I wouldn't do that until I'mhappy with.
The overall like until myeditors maybe looked at it and
had and had some structuralcomments and feedback.
'cause I feel like I tinker alot when I print it out and hard
copy.
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
(16:52):
Right.
And I think the tinkering is notgood.
I've just realized how well Itin.
It's so much with the butterflywomen before I submitted to
publishers, which I think isfine.
Yeah.
Because, you know, but now I'min a stage where I'm just like,
oh, is that where I wanna put mytime and effort?
Because this might all bedeleted.
Maybe I'm got PTSD from our, my,my structural edits.
Oh, I know
Tina Strachan (17:12):
what you mean.
To be honest though, I, I knowwhat you mean.
I'm not, I, I.
Hmm.
I am printing it out though totry and pick up some bigger
stuff, not necessarily thespelling mistakes and things,
uh, which I will catch as well.
I think I just need it off thescreen.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, it's just blurring intoone.
Now I need it off the screen.
I need it printed out.
I need to sit down with my pieceof paper and my, and my pen and
(17:33):
my highlighter and um, just.
Just look at it that way.
And because there's a, there's afew things with this one that
I've had to change over thecourse of time, like, um, which
I don't often do, but I did haveto think about this one a little
bit more.
And so I think there's somemaybe consistency things that I
need to check for.
And I need to just read it in aflow like, like it is a book.
(17:56):
I just need to read.
I mean, it's a book, do you knowwhat I mean?
But read it in a, almost like ina hard copy instead of the
screen, because it's just, youprocess it differently.
Do you think, Tash, you're notsure I get that because that's
exactly
Natasha Rai (18:06):
what I do, so yeah.
I do, I write a draft.
I don't actually go back andread over it while I'm writing
it.
I just write, when I finish it,I print it out and I read it,
like you said, for the flow.
And I literally make notes as Igo and I will, and I refuse to
edit anything.
I just make the notes like, thisbit needs this, this bit, but I
(18:27):
just keep reading.
Tina Strachan (18:29):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Natasha Rai (18:30):
Until I get to the end.
So I find that really usefulbecause then because it's
printed out.
Um, and I'm just making thenotes of what I need to beef up
or take out because it's not onthe screen.
I can't do that work yet untilI've read the whole thing and
got the idea of the shape of it.
So I find that really helpfulfor me'cause of the way I.
(18:51):
To my process, like my writing.
Yeah.
Gosh, I admire you for that.
That's, that's an amazingwillpower because you'd be so
tempted to just jump on yourlaptop and start tinkering when
you come across something,you're like, oh no, I need to
fix that.
But no, you can't.
'cause you're looking at bigpicture kind of flow stuff.
Mm.
That's interesting.
Tina Strachan (19:11):
I have, and I mean, and everybody, everybody
works differently.
Everybody's brain worksdifferently.
Exactly.
Every, everybody's flow isdifferently.
But, um, yeah, I like that.
And I have heard before, uh, Ithink it was an actual editor,
um.
Speak.
Yeah.
Speaking about what they do, andI think she said, you know, I
read it once and I just read thewhole thing and I'm, I'm not
(19:32):
looking for spelling mistakes,I'm not looking for grammatical
errors.
I'm not looking for any other,I'm just looking to be like, is
this story here in my head?
Is it flowing in my head and hasit, is there any major issues
with this overall story?
Cool.
Great.
That I make those notes and thenI come back.
Actually, it might have evenbeen my editor that made, made
notes about it and then I comeback and she's like, then I look
for like all the.
Smaller stuff, but if theoverall story's great, that's
(19:54):
cool.
We don't need to do like thosebig structural things.
But then I come back and I gothrough and I look for that
smaller stuff.
So it's almost like multipledifferent ways of looking at the
same document.
I get that.
That's, I do that.
Rebecca Grant (20:12):
Hello, I'm Rebecca Grant, and I'm excited
to share with you my very firstpicture book, Potion Commotion.
It's illustrated by the talentedNina Nil and published by Affirm
Press.
It tells the story of Nel theWitch, who with the help of her
dragon, creates a magicalpotion, but things go wrong when
she makes a mistake with thespell.
(20:34):
And her mixed up potion causes achaotic commotion.
A bubble rises from the pot andstarts to trap a whole cast of
characters inside of it.
And as the bubble grows, ittraps more and more creatures, a
mermaid, a ghost, even a giantsqueezes in until finally, it
captures Nel and the dragon.
(20:55):
When Nel waves a wand and popsthe bubble, the true extent of
the commotion is revealed.
But you'll need to read the bookto find out what that is.
Potion Commotion is written incumulative rhyme.
Building up throughout thestory, creating a whirlwind of
magical mayhem.
We've included a recipe at theend of the book for those little
(21:15):
readers who would like to createtheir own special potion.
Potion.
Commotion is out now, and I hopeyou love it as much as I do.
Madeleine Cleary (21:28):
Well, Tina, you'll be proud because, um, so
I wrote my draft zero and thenas I've been editing it, I've
been summarizing each chapter ina spreadsheet.
Ah, yes.
And noting a spreadsheet.
I'm spreadsheet.
So proud of you.
You Excel spreadsheet.
I know you would be, I've got atimeline in there.
For each, each chapter what,what, what, what timeline is.
(21:49):
And I also have the different,'cause it's a murder mystery.
I have all the different plotlines in a, in their own
separate columns.
So every time it hits one of theplot lines, the red, red, you
know, herrings or whatever.
Or write yes.
About what that is.
Perfect.
My gosh.
And so then I can see, oh mygosh, structurally, I know this
is cool.
I can then see structurally.
(22:11):
Where I've left it too long,like I haven't mentioned mm-hmm.
A particular thread
Tina Strachan (22:15):
mm-hmm.
For a
Natasha Rai (22:16):
while.
And so then I know I have to goand insert something, you know,
and I can see the flow of the,the reveal of the information.
Tina Strachan (22:22):
Yes.
Madeleine Cleary (22:23):
Um, I learn this from Ruby.
Yes.
Um, my publisher mm-hmm.
Because she does this.
Mm.
And she did this for thebutterfly woman for me.
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Like, she sent it to me and Iwas like, this is brilliant.
Like, I, I am gonna do this.
So, so good.
I can't do it for my draftzeroes because that's full
creative flow.
Yes, and it's really helped me,like there have been so many
(22:44):
plot points and plot holes andthreads that have gone nowhere,
and I've figured that outbecause I'm doing it.
Ah,
Tina Strachan (22:51):
so yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
And you know what, from that,you will, you might find the
next time there's less potholesand there's less, you know,
things that you've missed.
'cause you're, they're learningit and you're innately feeling
it as you're, as you're goingthrough.
Oh, that's incredible.
That's so good.
And you know, I even use thatbecause like you were saying,
yes.
Not for your Dr.
Zero draft.
'cause that's just getting thestory out.
Um, I've even used it for thingslike, um.
(23:17):
If there's a thread of a storypotentially or a character that
I'm trying to, that maybe isn'tbeefed up up enough, I've even
like when I've gone through,noted where I've put that
particular character or notedwhere I've.
Um, taken that particular plotline, even if it's a small one.
(23:37):
And because, you know, sometimesin your head you, you think it's
in there quite clearly and quitestrongly, but then on the paper
it's not, for whatever reason,you just haven't spent the time
to put it down or you've takenit out through other edits or
something.
Mm-hmm.
And just not realize that now itjust doesn't feel like a strong
plot line anymore.
But if, but even just liketicking off, just even just
basic, yes, I included it here,or no, I didn't.
(23:58):
And also vice versa.
Sometimes I think, have Irepeated that?
A couple of times like, have Ihave, I said this same thing too
many times and just kind ofworked it out, doing it that
way.
So yeah, it's, it's helpful.
That's really good.
Madeleine Cleary (24:12):
Spreadsheets, oh my gosh.
Spreadsheets.
So, and writing things out.
Handwriting I find hard areeasy, like when I've got plot.
Hold.
Yes, yes.
I figure out, I just starthandwriting the answer and then
it just comes to, it just comes,it flows.
Tina Strachan (24:27):
Yes.
Natasha Rai (24:27):
I dunno.
Hundred percent.
Tina Strachan (24:28):
Magic.
Magic.
It's a connection between thepen and the paper and your
brain.
It's
Natasha Rai (24:34):
crazy, it's
Tina Strachan (24:35):
wild.
Um, it's a creative flow.
Natasha Rai (24:38):
I do have an editing fail story though.
Tina Strachan (24:40):
Um mm-hmm.
Share.
I I did.
Please.
I was just about to ask you.
'cause editing's hard, you know,and you, you know, you do it
yourself.
Look, we're talking about themultiple times that we are doing
it, and then if you're publishedor you're paying editor, you
get.
Editor to do it.
And they run, they do the wholeread.
And then you get, you have atype set that reads it.
You have a line editor thatreads it, your publisher reads
it, maybe another editor readsit, you read it again 13 times.
(25:03):
You read it in type set, youread it in a hard copy, and then
it goes to print.
And then sometimes though, youknow, do you get, you miss
something, you miss something.
And,
Madeleine Cleary (25:13):
you know, um, yeah, I found that out today.
Yeah.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm glad I, I actually, um, Isaid to the, sorry I had a, um.
A message today from a readerand she, she said to me, um,
loved the book however, and Iwas like, oh, good start.
Good start.
Um, I found three minor errorsin, in the text.
(25:35):
She's got an eagle eye.
And so, uh, she sent me a photoof all of the errors and she
circled them.
Oh.
Um, and there were things like,there was one where there was an
extra is, you know, oh, um,there was one where I should
have said.
Unannounced, but it was writtenannounced, so the article was
(25:56):
missed.
Um, and then there was anotherone where it should have been
his sister, but I'd written hersister, so, oh yes.
And see, I've
Tina Strachan (26:05):
read your book.
I didn't pick up on any of that.
Well, I'm
Natasha Rai (26:07):
glad
Tina Strachan (26:08):
she should be an editor.
She should be a copy
Madeleine Cleary (26:10):
editor.
I know.
It was amazing.
So anyway, it was very timelybecause, um, in exciting news,
the butterfly women is going tobe format, which.
For those who know.
That's awesome.
Yeah, it's really cool.
And it's, feels like it's comingaround very quickly, but it's
gonna be so B format for thosewho don't know, it's the smaller
size of the book.
(26:30):
So there's the trade, which isthe larger one, and then it's
going to a smaller format.
And they do that, I think,'causeit's more cost effective.
So yeah, it's, it's cheaper.
It's like 22.99 instead of34.99.
Um, and it'll be released 31stof December at the end of the
year, which is gonna be cool.
But, um, I was able to forwardthose, um, errors to my, to the
(26:51):
editor who's managing the Bformat and he's like, yep,
you've got time.
Don't, no worry.
So he went and changed the typeset today, so, so that's good.
It was good.
Oh, really?
Just like that.
Oh, cool.
That's so good.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So able to pick it up.
Um, and I mean, like I said tothe lady, I was like, oh, thank
you.
Like I'm really appreciative ofit.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I also said that this isalso proof that it's not AI
(27:13):
generators.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tina Strachan (27:17):
Oh wow.
So I think, thank you Eagle Eyereader for I know on that and
you know, there would bemistakes.
I'm certain of it in everysingle book that's published.
Of course there Isly, I've seenmajor ones like in
Madeleine Cleary (27:30):
some books, but I mean like, it's just it,
you can't help it.
You've and I, for those whodon't know what the process is,
like the type, you get this typeset.
Which is the final proof in APDF.
So it's not in a Word document,it's in A PDF.
You're making changes by addingnotes, like little comments.
You, you can't make changes tothe text, and so someone then
(27:53):
needs to put those comments intothe type set.
So it's not like you can trackchanges or anything.
It is really
Tina Strachan (28:01):
difficult.
It's really, especially ifyou're doing like, um, full, I,
I use a lot of commas and, andsometimes I like take'em out and
if you're literally going injust to, that you have to zoom
into that one little full stopor comma and then like highlight
it, but you're crossing it outat the same time.
But when you're crossing out afull stop that like full stops,
it's so tiny, they don't go andsee the cross out.
(28:23):
It's, and my computer always hasa bit of a.
Meltdown when I'm doing itbecause it gets really slow.
Because there's literallythousands of notes.
Yes.
In in the, in the song.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, yeah.
So it's tricky.
But I've heard, um, there's somepeople that still do it on hard
copy, don't they?
There's been some people in theday crew that have had hard copy
Natasha Rai (28:42):
Yeah.
Tina Strachan (28:42):
And they, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Do,
Natasha Rai (28:44):
yeah.
There has,
Tina Strachan (28:45):
hasn't it, Natasha?
Yeah.
And write it out and send itback, I believe.
Or scan it and send it back.
Wow.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (28:53):
I do love it anyway.
So have you guys found any areasin your books or is it just me
so far?
Tina Strachan (29:00):
I don't think I've read the full books.
Well, I had, I don't know, haveyou read your books?
One's told you no one sinceyou've actually had a print one?
No, no one's told me.
I have not read my book.
No.
No, no.
Um, no one's told me, but youknow.
Feel free to share it so I canfix it please.
Um, but I'm certain of it, butI've certainly written, um,
things for work.
I write a lot of technicaldocuments for work and we have a
(29:23):
very.
Well distributed technicaldocument that I was in charge of
doing the full edit.
I pretty much wrote most of it,but did the, you know, meant to,
you know, final sign offs andall those things, and it was
three years later we had a newstaff member and they read it
for the first time and they'relike.
You know that this is wrong, andit's just like, oh my God,
really like the amount of peoplethat have read this.
(29:43):
And we just, just, thiscompletely new person with new
fresh eyes was just like thatpointed out, this massive error
that none of us ever, ever saw.
So yeah, it happens all thetime.
Mm-hmm.
Fresh eyes, that's the, the keyI think.
Yeah.
Okay.
So ladies, um, if you have onetop tip then for, for editing
(30:05):
woes, um, what would it be?
What have you got for usNatasha?
Natasha Rai (30:09):
Okay.
My top tip is, um, when you aredoing your final, final, final
proofread, print the whole thingout and use a ruler to literally
go line by line reading everysingle word out loud.
And if you find that you arereading really fast, you've
(30:31):
gotta go back to the start ofthe sentence and slow it down so
that you're reading every singleword.
Mm-hmm.
I found at that late stage twoor three errors and you know, as
we've just said, so many peoplehad read it like there was a
character name that was wrongand so many people had missed
(30:53):
it, including me.
'cause I've read it so manytimes.
And, and when read it out loud,you can get a sense of.
Not only the mistakes, butthings like repeat words, which
are so easy to skip over, likeis, is you know, how you said
there was an extra Is Madeline.
So, um, yeah, that's my top tip.
(31:13):
So save that till the very endor the very last time you can
possibly make a change.
And that includes if you arelike, if, if it's not for a
publisher and you're submittingto a competition.
Or is submitting to a publisher.
My top tip is do that justbefore you submit so that if
there is something you can fixit.
Tina Strachan (31:34):
Mm-hmm.
I like that.
Yeah.
Getting down to the nittygritty.
What about you, Madeline?
Um.
So, yeah, I
Madeleine Cleary (31:41):
agree with Natasha and actually I did do
that.
So I think my top tip would beum,'cause I thought that, I
remember going through theproofing process and I actually,
the man, my manuscript went backto structurals in the middle of
the final proof.
So I'd done the final proof andthen it came back to me because
they'd noticed somethingstructural in it.
(32:01):
And so I had to make changes inthe type set.
So then I had to go throughanother proofing process.
So I was pretty exhausted Ithink by the end of it.
Um, and sort of tearing my hairout.
And I remember at the timethinking the worst possible
thing that can ever happen isfor someone to pick up an error
and,'cause I know it's on me.
But the funny thing is, is whenit actually happened, when
(32:22):
someone did pick up these minorerrors, I actually was like, oh,
I'm okay with it.
So I would say that.
Don't.
If you're a, a debut writer fornext year and you're freaking
out listening to this, it's notsuch a big of a deal.
Yeah.
It's so not a big deal.
No.
So don't stress too much aboutit.
I mean, do everything you canpossibly do to pick up every
(32:46):
single thing you can.
And that's, I, and I know thatI, I did that.
But when it does happen, it'sactually not that bad.
Tina Strachan (32:53):
So that's my tip.
Natasha Rai (32:53):
Yeah.
Tina Strachan (32:54):
What about, there's a point, there is a
point where you just can't seeit.
Yeah, exactly.
Natasha Rai (32:58):
You cannot,
Tina Strachan (32:58):
yeah.
And you're reading the story,but it's just all, it's like
it's already in your head, soyou Exactly.
Reading the words like
Natasha Rai (33:05):
500 times.
You're like, please let thisend.
I know you are like, this is theworst book ever.
Tina Strachan (33:11):
I love you my child,
Natasha Rai (33:12):
but please, I never
Tina Strachan (33:13):
wanna see you again.
Oh, so what about me?
Um, I.
Uh, yes, I agree with all yourediting.
Wonderful advice.
Um, but one that I justremembered was something that
was shared with us at aconference recently by an
editor, and she, what she doesis she reads it back to front.
(33:33):
Oh God.
She starts from, and this would,this is so clearly this is not
for, um, for, uh, flow orstructural'cause that would be
weird.
No, just for, if you're reallyconcerned about.
Natasha Rai (33:46):
Um,
Tina Strachan (33:46):
can I just ask,
Natasha Rai (33:47):
when you say back to front, do you mean like
chapter wise?
Like you read the last chapteror literally sentence level back
to front.
Uh,
Tina Strachan (33:54):
page level.
Back to front.
So start on the last page.
Natasha Rai (33:57):
Oh, okay.
Tina Strachan (33:57):
Read.
So, so her theory is, is thatyou are not just.
Just re looking over the wordsand your brain is filling in the
gaps.
'cause you know what's comingnext and you kind of do,'cause
you, you've got one page and soyou kind of get it, but then you
go back to the next page and it,the storyline's all modeled up.
So the words should sort, sortof, kind of, oh, jump out at
you.
Like, it's like they cancompletely different.
(34:19):
You can't.
I like that.
Yeah.
There you go.
So you can do your ruler trickback to front.
Love it.
I mean, you could de sentenceupside down as well.
T just get everything.
Madeleine Cleary (34:32):
Catherine, you know, Catherine Collette,
actually her advice was, don'tuse a ruler because you can see
the words below.
She suggested that's why you usea wooden ruler.
Oh, wouldn't, well, she, shejust, just suggest a piece of
paper so it just completelyblocks out the entire page.
So your own Oh yeah.
You could do that.
Yeah.
That that was her at top tip.
Not sure if that's useful ornot.
I think I broke my ruler, so Idid have to go to a page, like a
(34:52):
paper,
Tina Strachan (34:53):
anything really.
Just yeah.
To cover.
Just
Natasha Rai (34:56):
anything.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Oh,
Tina Strachan (34:57):
that's editing.
Editing.
That's amazing.
Uh, thank you ladies for yourtips.
I just wanted to have one lastlittle shout out.
Um, that this month is actuallydyslexia awareness month.
So, you know, especially withall this talk about editing and
using rulers and things to readis sometimes that's.
A tip.
There's special rulers forpeople with dyslexia, but a lot
of people don't know this, butsome books are actually printed
(35:19):
in formats that make it easierfor people with dyslexia to
read.
So, um, both my books that areout, both the Wild Zoo books are
printed in this format and youcan get it at the libraries as
well.
So if, um, you know, anyonewho's, um, has dyslexia or
struggling to read a little bit,um, this can be helpful.
So there's quite a few titlesand you can check out your local
(35:40):
libraries, uh, for them.
Natasha Rai (35:42):
Wonderful.
Tina Strachan (35:43):
Amazing.
Madeleine Cleary (35:44):
And we should also do a one last shout out as
well to our Patreon supporters,our patrons.
Thank you so much for supportingus.
Um, it means the world.
And, um, yeah, just a littlespecial shout out to Christine
Newell who has been on ourpodcast, and thank you,
Christine has supporting thepodcast.
So thank you, Christine.
Thank you.
See you next month ladies.
(36:06):
Bye.
Bye.
Tina Strachan (36:08):
Thank you for listening to the book Deal
podcast.
We're able to bring you theseweekly writerly chats because of
our amazing patrons.
Join the TBD family by becominga member of our Patreon
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