Emily Paull on "retiring" from writing and her 17-year journey to publishing The Distance Between Dreams

Episode Transcript
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Madeleine Cleary (00:09):
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will
discover the inspiring storiesbehind your favorite books.

Natasha Rai (00:15):
We interview seasoned and debut authors, as
well as publishing industryprofessionals to bring you the
best tips and advice on how toget that elusive book deal.
So no matter what stage ofwriting you're at, we've got you
covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And I'm Natasha Rai.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one

(00:38):
deal at a

time.
The book Deal Podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners of the land and waters,which it's recorded on.
And pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging.
Emily Paull is a WesternAustralian librarian, author and

(00:59):
book reviewer in 2019.
Her debut collection of shortfiction well-behaved women was
published by Margaret RiverPress.
Her novel, the Distance BetweenDreams was shortlisted for the
2023.
Fogarty Literary Award waspublished by Fremantle Press in
April, 2025.
Emily is incredibly generous asshe shares all the highs and
lows of her 17 year journey topublication.

(01:22):
She has so many top tips toshare in this episode.
And if you do want more,subscribe to Emily Substack.
Check out her reviews at the aureview.
I hope you enjoy this episode.
Emily Paul, welcome to the BookDeal Podcast.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really excited to be here.

(01:42):
You are very much have your handin lots of different parts of
the book industry.
You are a critic, a librarian,former bookseller, and now a
published author.
Um, has books always been partof your life, Emily?

Emily Paull (01:57):
Uh, I think pretty safe to say yes there.
I, I co very much one of thoset-shirts that's in the style of
the Barbie movie where, youknow, Ken said My job is just
beach.
And I've seen around people havet-shirts that say my job is just
books because it really is thebest way to describe all the
different bookish hats that Iwear in my day-to-day life.

(02:20):
Um, yeah, I've been.
Reading my entire life, youknow, can't go to sleep without
reading a book for half an hourbefore bed.
Um, people on the podcast can'tsee this, but I've got like a
literal wall of books she doesbehind me right now.
And some of them are doublestacked and there are some on
the floor and there's a trolleyover here with all the, the TBR

(02:40):
ones and my TBR number isridiculously high.
That's to be read for anybodythat's not chronically online
the way I am.

Actually,

I think I saw you

put a photo on your substack, was it?
Of your TBR pile.
You've got a mission to, to

click.
Uh, that was part of my TBRpile.
Yes, that's the oldest books onmy TBRI decided I would try and
read anything that was added tomy TBR pre 2021.
Um, so that's the very farbookcase over by the window
there.
Mm.
From the third shelf down.
So it's, it's nearly 80 books.
Like, and that's a fraction ofmy TPR, so I'm not gonna tell

(03:15):
you what the TPR number isbecause it's shameful.
Um, not that we shame anybodyfor their reading habits of
like, there's no book shaminghere, but it is a ridiculously
high number and you know thatyou get that little cringe of
over consumption when you, youtell people what the number is.
So I won't be telling you whatit is right now.

Do you, do you find now, I mean, being a
critic, you've, and a librarianand someone who interviews a lot
of writers yourself, youprobably receive lots of free
copies of books constantly andit just adds to your pile.
Yeah.
Do you do find there's like apressure or a schedule now, now
that you're a published writerto read?

Uh, I mean, it's very hard to stick to a reading
schedule because as I'm sure youknow, you know, you have this
intention of, you know, theseare the books I'm gonna get to
this month, and then somethingreally shiny comes out and you
have to get to it right away.
Um, strictly speaking, with thebooks that I get sent for
review, if it's something I'verequested, I'm supposed to get
to it within.
A reasonable timeframe.

(04:12):
And I think when I first signedup, um, I was told sort of three
weeks was reasonable.
Uh, I'm looking at my reviewpile right now.
The oldest one on there is fromMay, 2025.
So to all the authors whosebooks I haven't reviewed yet, I
am really sorry that I'm sobehind.
But we're a small volunteer teamand I'm trying to write my own
book and uh, my eyes are biggerthan my stomach in a book sense,

(04:35):
I guess.
But very rarely do we getpublicists following up and
saying, where is the review?
So I'm a bit lucky that

way.
Well, we appreciate your work,Emily, and I can't even imagine
Yes.
Your reading pile and thatpressure on you.
So thank you for the work youdo, and we will talk about the
au review as well.
I'm interested to know how you,um, you know, go fall into
something like this as well.
Um, but let's start from thebeginning.
When did you wanna become awriter?

Oh gosh, I can't remember a time when I didn't
want to become a writer.
I think once I learned what theconcept was, because I knew I
loved books and I knew that Iloved stories.
And then I guess as soon as Iwas aware that people were the
ones creating them and that thatwas a job you could do, that was
probably the thing I had myheart set on.

(05:22):
Um, maybe I was a tiny littlerealist or something though,
because I've always been veryaware that you can't just make a
living being a writer.
So throughout my childhood I'vesaid I want to be a Japanese
teacher and a writer.
I want to be a doctor and awriter.
I want to be, oh, what else wason the list?
Um.
At one point I wanted to be aTaeKwonDo instructor.

(05:44):
Uh,'cause I was doing TaeKwonDo,um, a chiropractor at one point,
like doctor and chiropractor.
They're the least in line withmy current personality.
I'm very much not a maths andscience person.
Um, a teacher and a writer.
That was always something to paythe bills and then the writing
at night.
Um, so that kind of tracks wellwith the rest of my career.

(06:05):
I've always done.
Work part-time and writingpart-time.
You are so from the end ofschool,

you sound so mature the way that you said
that, like when you're a kid,you realize, okay, you've gotta
be a writer plus something else.
And because I think as a, as a,you know, child or even people
who are outside the industryhave this vision of writers that
they spend most of their timehurried, you know, sort of
scurred away in their office,writing it, pays the bills, they

(06:33):
become the next JK Rowling orStephen King, and suddenly
they're very famous.
But it's not quite the reality,is it?

No.
I do know a few people who arelucky enough to be able to write
full-time, but even amongst thatgroup of friends, you know,
they're not rolling in cash.
They're not paying foreveryone's dinner every time we
go out.
They, they've very consciouslystructured their life and their
expenses in such a way thatmeans they have the freedom and
in a way.

(07:01):
I'm really envious of thatbecause the thing I'm really
struggling with at the moment isthat block of time where you can
get several days in a row todevote to your work because, you
know, I get to Sunday eveningsometimes I don't write on
Monday, even though it's my dayoff because I've gotta keep my
house running and exercise anddo appointments and things like
that.
And then, you know, it's a wholeweek before I get back to my

(07:22):
desk and I have to reacquaintmyself with the work.
So yeah, it's really, it'sreally tough out there for
Australian writers and yeah,maybe I have been aware of that
from quite a young age.
Um, yeah, it's What does yourwriting routine look like?
Oh gosh.
Uh, it's not really existent atthe moment.
I just have a.

(07:42):
Block at the moment.
That is Sunday afternoons, onetill three.
I have a, like a virtual writein session, or we call it a shut
up and write session.
Love that.
Um, with a couple of friendswhere we do timed blocks, and
that's supposed to be protectedtime, but every now and then
something will come up, uh,like, you know, family emergency
or an appointment or we had our,um, debut crew catch up a couple

(08:05):
of Sundays ago for people fromwa from the 2025 group to scare
the living bejesus out of the2026 group.
Um, so that happened to, to beat the same No, no, of course
not.
I mean, we might've, you know,given them a little bit of a
reality check and given themsome practical tips in the, in
the process, but it was also acelebration, I hope.
I don't know, maybe we'll haveto find out from some of them.

(08:28):
If they went, gee, she's reallycynical and it scared me.

Well, every, you've been an absolute champion
in support of the writingcommunity generally, Emily, so
I'm imagining you were to givethem some excellent advice.
Um, let's talk about distancebetween Dreams, your debut novel
mm-hmm.
Without out with FremantlePress, um, I'm going to ask you
the question that every authorabsolutely loves.

(08:53):
Can you give us your elevatorpitch, Emily?
Oh,

gosh.
Uh, I'm so outta practice ofthis now.
Uh, let me just read my ownblurb.
Um, so it's a World War II lovestory with a twist.
Um, it's a working class boycalled Winston Keller, who meets
a upper middle class girl calledSarah Willis at a party and they
fall in love, but discover thatthere's a family secret that is

(09:16):
going to potentially be anobstacle to the two of them
being together.
And then World War II begins,and that presents an even bigger
obstacle.
So it's about whether or notthey can find their way back to
one another and whether or notthey can move on if they can't.

It's such a beautiful story.
We were just talking earlierthat despite the fact that it's
set during the war, it's such auplifting, heartwarming story.
It has romance at its center,but it is fairly expansive.
I could feel it, and I don'tread that many stories set in
Western Australia as well.
So I think that's also reallyimportant, and at its heart is

(09:52):
about, you know, two people and,um, the things that tear them
apart and hopefully come backtogether again.
So congratulations on yourdebut.
Um, I heard, or I read that itwas inspired by a cd.
Is that right?
Yes.

Yeah.
It's Tell tell me about that.
Oh gosh.
Um, so I mean, you say it's mydebut and it's my debut novel.
I'm kind of a rebel.
Yes, that's right.
Yeah.

Yes.
You, I I went and saw that you'dwritten, um, a collection of
short stories well-behavedwomen.
I was, yes.
Just, I was like, well, you arenot technically a debut.
No,

I, uh, begged my way into the, the debut crew,
uh,'cause it's my debut novel.
My, my short story collectioncame out at the end of 2019, so
December, 2019 was mypublication date.
And so that was launched prettymuch straight into COVID.
And it was a book that kind ofsnuck up on me as well, because
I'd had a few short storiespublished through Margaret River

(10:46):
Press in their anthologies thatthey used to do every year and.
They applied for some grantfunding to do a few mentorships,
and, um, one of them they gaveto me.
So I got to work with LaurieSteed, who is an absolutely
amazing West Australian writerand writing teacher and advocate
for writing.
Uh, so that was a fantasticexperience.
But, um, I hadn't ever reallyintended to write a book of

(11:08):
short stories.
And I remember the publisherfrom Margaret River Press, she'd
emailed me to tell me they'dbeen successful in getting the
funding and that my applicationhad been successful.
And I must have skimmed theemail because a day later I got
another email saying, hi Emily,did you read this email?
Because I hadn't responded andbeen really excited.
Oh, um, because my focus was solong has been on getting the

(11:29):
distance between Dreamspublished.
It's a book that I startedwriting in.
April, 2008.
That's a long time.
I was in year 12.
Yeah.
So, you know, I'm just givingaway my age on the internet.
There I was, I was 17.
Uh, and it was sort of aculmination of a whole bunch of
different things that I wasinterested in and that I was
studying in all sort of swirlingaround in my head.

(11:52):
And then I had this album that Ihad traipsed all over Japan
looking for a copy of, becausewe couldn't import it into
Australia for some reason.
I had found this band calledSearch Rescue through MySpace,
um, you know, with MySpace pagesused to go to your friend's
pages and they'd have a playlistgoing and you could like follow.
The playlists through todiscover new bands?

(12:15):
Yes, yes.
Vaguely yes.
It's like a very niche memorythat sort of becomes unlocked
every time I think about it.
But I'd found this band calledSearch Rescue.
They had this album called TheCompound, and I really wanted a
copy and we were going to Japan.
So, you know, we traipsed aroundall these CD shops trying to
find a copy of it.
Finally managed to startedlistening to it when I got home.

(12:36):
And the tracks in order seemedto be suggesting a story.
Um, and one of the tracks iscalled Great Big War.
So I think that was part of whyI started thinking of it as
being a historical story, but Iwas also really enjoying reading
Kate Morton at that time.
Mm-hmm.
So I discovered the Shifting Fogand the Forgotten Garden.

(12:56):
Um, and I think most of herother books maybe hadn't even
come out by that point, but I'dsort of decided this was the
kind of book that I wanted towrite.
Um, so I, yeah, I planned outthis.
Outline of a book based on thetrack listing.
And

it was, that's amazing that I've never heard
that before.
You've, it's, it's the structureusing a seat.
How amazing is that?
Yeah.

Well, it didn't stay as the structure though,
that's the thing.
'cause when I planned it out, itwas like a murder mystery.
And really all the meeting andgetting together stuff had
happened prior to chapter one.
And then Sarah had gone missing.
And um, and Winston wasbasically trying to work out
what had happened to her withthe war in the background.
So I, I wrote out the, the planand then promptly threw it out

(13:39):
the window the second I startedwriting.
So, um, I can't plan to save mylife, which is a real headache
when you're a historical fictionwriter, as I'm sure you know,
Madeline, because yeah, you haveto kind of fit things around
what actually happened, orsomeone's gonna send you an
email and tell you you got itwrong.

Well, we're both in the same club there,
Emily.
Um, being pants says, but hey,it's fun, right?
It's so fun.
So fun.
Okay, so, so you, you've plannedout mm-hmm.
This novel based on the CDstracks Did, when did you start
writing?
I actually think

I started writing on Anzac Day 2008.
I think you remember the date?
Yeah, because I just remember,well, maybe it's one of those
things where it's not actuallyaccurate, but I just kind of
remember being like, I'm gonnawrite a war story and you know,
I've had this day at schoolwhere they just keep talking
about the significance of AnzacDay and I'm doing TE history,

(14:35):
the tertiary entrance, examlevel history, what do they call
it now?
Atar?
I don't know.
Yeah.
Um,
and
you know, they, they keep impressing on me, the
Anzac legend and all of this.
And I'm sitting there going, youknow, here's, this is really
significant.
I'm starting my war story onAnzac Day.
Um, so yeah, I mean, it, itprobably took a while to finish

(14:55):
because I would've had to doexams a couple of times that
year, but.
From there, I rewrote the book.
Gosh, how many times would itbe?
Like 13, 14 times.
And I would send it out and itwould come back and I would get
disheartened and go, I give upand then I would get another
burst of inspiration and redo itand send it out again.
And um, okay.

(15:16):
So yeah.
So

how long was this over?
Like over what period of timewere you rewriting and send and
I'm assuming by sending it out,you mean to publishers?
To

publishers or competitions or agents?
Yeah.
Um, so, so 2008 to 2023 was theperiod under which it was
uncontracted.
15 years.
Yeah.
So it was, yeah, 15 years.
Gosh, to get contracted, 17years to be on the shelf,

that is half my life.
That's a tale of persistence,Emily.
Yes.
Okay.
So during that time, how did youever think I'm gonna put down
this project and work onsomething new?
Oh, definitely.
Yeah.

I mean, I.
During COVID, we didn't havelockdowns in wa in the same way
that the, um, some of the otherstates did.
Uh, you had some awful timesthere.
We had our borders were closedand we had restrictions around
movement and things like that.
So the place where I was workingdid close to the public and

(16:16):
because we were public library,we were getting a lot of
pressure to use some of ourleave because there's only so
much you can do when you're notopen to the public.
But we were doing things likemaking online story time videos
and doing home delivery topeople and you know, trying to
do as much as we could.
But I got to the point where Ithought.
I do have a lot of leave.
I'm gonna use a whole bunch ofit.
I took six weeks off and I wrotea different book.

Mm-hmm.

Um, so that's the one I'm revising now.
And hopefully that's not goingto take 15 years to get off the
ground.
So 2021 to question mark.
The clock is ticking on thatone, I guess.

All right.
Countdown's on.
Yeah.
So during that 15 year periodthough, so obviously you went
through like lots of rejections.
Mm-hmm.
Lots of feedback.
How do you maintain yourperseverance during this time?

Uh, I mean, you cry a lot and complain a lot and
tell the people around you thatyou suck and, you know, say some
pretty nasty things aboutyourself because it's all part
of the process.
Um, yeah, I mean, I'm stilltrying to get a handle on the
like mental health side ofwriting because it can be
really, really tough.
You know, like when you'rewriting it, you fluctuate

(17:22):
between, I'm an absolute geniusand, you know, I'm.
Incapable of doing this.
And it's so frustrating to notbe able to translate the vision
that you have in your mind ontothe page in any meaningful way.
But then also there's the addedlayer of you're sending it out
to industry professionals andasking them to judge you.

(17:43):
Yeah.
In which the time they're gonnafind you wanting.
And that's, it's such a paradoxof confidence and vulnerability.
Uh, so I'm still trying tofigure my way through the mental
health side of things and theperseverance all comes with
that.
I think, um, I think it's RachelJohns that says, if you can do
anything else, do, like, youhave to be absolutely compelled

(18:04):
to want to write because it isso hard on the mental health.
So yeah, if I could have quit, Iwould've, I did announce my
retirement sort of early 2020, Iguess when I wasn't really
writing while I was promoting myshort story collection.
But I couldn't stay retired forlong.

(18:25):
I had like a burst ofinspiration that became the 2021
draft.
So yeah, I just couldn't stayretired.
And I guess there's something inme that compels me.
To keep trying, even if it makesme feel awful sometimes.

Mm.
That's very powerful.
And that compulsion, and I thinkeven after being published, and
I mean, you had this collectionof short stories published in
2019, which is a, a feat initself.
It's almost harder to publishcollection of short stories in
Australia than it is a long formnovel.
Um, well,

cause people don't really buy and read them, which
is a real tragedy.
But I once overheard abookseller telling a customer
that they don't really stockmany short story collections
because she doesn't see thepoint in them.
So,

and I love short stories.
I think they're wonderful.
Tell, tell us about then yourjourney to publication for your
short story collection.

Mm.
Um, it was.
Yeah, so I, I'd had a fewindividual stories published.
I'd been told by another writerwho was the, the parent of a
friend of my sister's who she'dtaken me by First Writer's
festival.
She would sometimes give meadvice.
Um, and her advice had been tryand get your name out there, try
and get a few publicationcredits to your name, try and

(19:35):
get a bit of experience.
So I'd been sending stories tocompetitions and to literary
magazines.
And we had Margaret River Pressvery briefly, but very
powerfully in Western Australia.
They did some amazing work andthey used to do this annual
anthology of short stories.
So I was in, I wanna say two ofthose, but it could have been

(19:57):
three.
I think it's two.
And I had a few storiespublished in Westerly Magazine
and a few other places as well,some places online.
And so, because I was startingto build up a bit of a body of
work and I had a relationshipwith Carolyn Wood, who was the
publisher at Margaret Press, andshe's now working with the

(20:17):
Center for Stories.
She and her husband John run theCenter for Stories in Perth,
which does amazing work aboutuplifting, marginalized voices
through storytelling.
And they have this beautifulhouse that you can go and do
workshops in and residencies,and it's really worth checking
out if you are into writing andin wa.
Um, so yeah, Caroline Woodapproached me and said, you are

(20:40):
somebody who's been published ina few of our anthologies.
We are looking at getting somefunding to do some mentorships
where some writers would bementored by an established short
story writer and sort of.
Mentored through the process ofdoing your first collection.
Mm-hmm.
Um, which meant that I had toput together some samples and
fill in some questions as partof their grant application.

(21:02):
They were successful and I thinkthat was at the end of 2018 that
they found out that they'd beensuccessful.
Yeah.
Validation though for you afterYeah.
This piece

of rejections with the distance between dreams
to get that, that that would'vebeen very bolstering, I would

imagine.
I think so, yeah.
To have somebody whose work Iadmire so much, um, approach me
and say, you know, we would likeyou to be part of this.
And then also to be paired upwith Laurie Steed, who became my
mentor, who is gentle, but alsocan be tough on you when need
be.
So there were a few stories thatI really liked that ended up.

(21:39):
In a folder on the computersomewhere for potentially
collection number two, if I everget around to writing a second
collection.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I remember him sending me anemail.
Uh, I'd sent him a new story tosay like, oh, you know, is there
room?
Can we include this?
And a reply came back within thehour, I think with the subject
line.
Great Effing story.
I mean, he, he said the actual sswear word, but, uh, I don't

(22:00):
wanna get your podcast, uh,explicitly rated.
So that was his reaction.
Yeah, it has.
Okay, good.
Well, if I accidentally swelllater, then I won't feel so bad.
Yeah, no, it was, it was areally fantastic experience.
And, um, the process of revisingfor publication with someone
that I could bounce ideas off.

(22:21):
Pretty much constantly wasfantastic.
And I know that I was reallylucky to have that because when
you work with a biggerpublisher, you don't necessarily
get quite so much focusedattention for quite such a long
period of time.

Mm-hmm.
I do think the process and ofwriting short stories, it really
is helpful for novel writing.
It really makes you focus onyour craft and your use of
language.
Um, and I mean, I dabbled in afew short stories while I was,
'cause I'm kind of like you.
I'm, I'm very, I feel verycompelled to write even when I'm

(22:52):
in between jobs, jobs being thewriting projects.
And I, I think short stories cansometimes help fill that gap.
Um, they're really, reallydifficult though, aren't they?

They are.
I mean, you've got a very shortspace, um, you know, when you're
doing a collection, you don'thave quite so many restrictions
as far as the length of thestory goes, but.
Strictly speaking, mostAustralian journals and, um,
competitions and things havelike a 2000 to 3000 word limit,
which means that the Australianshort story is much shorter than

(23:25):
the American counterpart.
A lot of American short storiescan have an upper word limit of
like 10,000 words, which almostsounds like a novelette to me.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
So you have to be reallyeconomic with your word choices.
You have to start the story aslate as possible and somehow
give all the context that'sneeded.
And I think those skills, likeyou say, they really do set you
up well for writing a novel,particularly when you're writing

(23:47):
a novel in a genre like historyor fantasy or sci-fi or
something that requires a lot ofworld building and context.

Yeah.
Agreed.
So let's just go back.
So we've got so well-behavedwomen has come out mm-hmm.
December, 2019.
It's COVID.
You've taken some time off work.
Mm-hmm.
You've written project numbertwo, so it's 2021 now.
Mm-hmm.
Um, what, what were you stilltinkering away at the distance
between Dreams?
Uh, in this time?

Not really immediately prior to writing
project number two, um, whichwas called the turning tide at
that time, um, I had decided Iwas retired and had been sort of
still keeping in contact with mywriting friends, but basically
just, you know, cutting myselfsome slack and sort of saying,
well, it doesn't matter if Idon't write, if I don't write in

(24:35):
my journal, I just wanna readbooks.
I'm retired.
I don't write anymore.
I love that.
I love that you've said thatyou're retired.
Oh yeah.
And honestly, I recommend it.
If you really are feeling thepressure and you're feeling like
you don't love writing anymore,just retire because you're
putting the pressure onyourself.
There's nobody waiting for yourbooks if you're not contracted,

(24:56):
you know, like.

What's to stop you retiring.
And I think it's almost like, itsounds like you are almost
reaching rightly burnout withthat constant sort of stream,
like doing that for 15 years.
It's a long time to have that.

Yeah, it's

nice.
And

I distance, I do, yeah, distance.
I do put a, a lot of pressure onmyself as well.
I am a bit of a perfectionist, alittle bit of an all or nothing
thinker.
So you're probably right thatmaybe I was reaching a little
bit of writerly burnout and um,I think you've probably spoken
with people about this on the,the podcast before, but there is
kind of this idea that yourbook's gonna come out, short

(25:32):
story collection, debut book,whatever, that's gonna sell lots
and lots and lots of copies andthat's gonna be it, that's gonna
be the beginning of your career.
And so I kind of had to come toterms with this idea that no,
your book's gonna come out.
It's gonna be kind of a smalldrop in the ocean and it's not
necessarily gonna be the startof a career.

(25:54):
The everything resets.
You go back to having to find ahome for the next project.
You know, you still have to gothrough the submissions process.
You still have to.
Make those relationships and youknow, now that you've got a book
out, some opportunities are nolonger open to you because there
are many prizes that are onlyopen to people who have never

(26:15):
published a book before.
Mm.
Um, and so in many ways, havingone book out makes publishing
any more books, maybe moredifficult.
So I was coming to terms withthat and almost sort of grieving
this idea of what I thoughtwould happen the first time I
got a book published.
And that has almost happenedagain this second time because
you have to learn, it's abusiness and you have to learn

(26:38):
discipline, and you have tolearn how to, um, do some of
your own advocating for yourbook and, and learn how to work
with marketing and pr and how towork with journalists and
festivals.
And there's, it's a very steeplearning curve and it is a
business.
And I had to stop thinking aboutit as a hobby and start thinking
about it as work.

(26:59):
So.
It's almost mirrored theexperience the first time around
doing that.
With my first book, with aslightly bigger publisher with
the distance between dreams,

you almost don't want, like you, I
completely agree with you, youhave to turn on that work brain,
that business brain, the, thatauthor business brain.
But at the same time, you alsowant to sort of save time and
space and energy for thatcreative spot.
The, the thing that compels youto write, I mean, all of this,
the business, all of what we'redoing is trying to buy ourselves

(27:31):
that creative space as well.
At the same time.
It's a really tricky thing todo, I think, and I can
understand that whenwell-Behaved women came out, you
wanted to take that time to, tobe part of that business and put
your business mind on and, and,you know, perhaps take that
break.
I think that's a reallyimportant point.
So.
What happened then?
Obviously, I mean, spoilers, thedistance between Dreams was

(27:54):
published.
Tell us about the publicationjourney.
The successful one?

Yes.
Um, okay, so I had had a littlebit of, uh, encouragement
because the, the turning tide,the, well, I renamed it by that
point to the Good daughter.
But project number two had beenhighly commended in this amazing
award that we have here in wa,the Fogerty Literary Award,

(28:19):
which is, um, the FogertyFoundation working with
Fremantle Press to discoverbooks by West Australian writers
between the ages of 18 and 35.
It's been going since 2019, Ithink was the first round.
And there's a bit of cash prizeinvolved, isn't there?
There is a$20,000 cash prize.
Yeah.
Um, spoiler alert, I didn't win.

(28:41):
Um, but I made it onto thehighly commended list and that
was really encouraging because.
Even though it was kind of like,you know, missed it by that much
sort of situation, I knew thatit was a competitive field and
to make it onto the list at allwas kind of a way of saying,
keep going.
There's something here.
So which year was this in?

(29:02):
That was in 2021 with the, theturning tide, with the project
number two that I'd written inthe six weeks.
Yeah, I think you wrote a bookin six weeks as well that would
Oh, yeah.
Astounding.
If you have nothing, nothingelse demanding on your time.
Like, I don't have kids, um, Iwasn't going to work.
Uh, I don't really exercise.
I don't cook and I don't reallyclean my house, so, uh, you

(29:25):
know, this is just a picture ofme living in squ and eating
chips all the time.
Um, no, but because I didn'treally have too many other
demands on my time and I justsmashed out that book in six
weeks and then obviously revisedit before sending it to the
award.
Um, but yeah, like it can bedone if you can get that focused
time and you already sort ofhave the idea.
Cooking away in your mind, andthen you just get that like, you

(29:47):
know, you're at the gate, like,just let me out, ready to go.
Ready to run the race sort oftype feeling.
Um, you are inspiring me, Emily.
Oh, good.
Yeah, just take six weeks offwork, everybody.
If you've gotta leave, do it.
Yes.
Um, yeah, so that award had kindof been like a beacon of like,
keep going.
So not long after that I hadshelved the book that would

(30:08):
become the Distance betweenDreams and had sort of decided
this is gonna be my bottom drawbook.
It was my, um, I recently heardHolly Auer call it Her
Apprentice novel.
Mm-hmm.
As in like, you, while, whileyou're learning the, the ropes.
Um, and so that was, I wasdeciding that that was gonna be
my apprentice novel.
I, it was obviously somethingwas never gonna work about it.
I would always love it, but itwas probably never gonna come

(30:30):
out of the bottom drawer.
And I had this flash ofinspiration.
The book was starting in thewrong place.
It needed to start at the party.

Oh

yeah.
Where did it start originally?
Um, originally it started withthe scene where he's up at the
roundhouse Winston's up at theRoundhouse, which is this old
prison complex in Fremantle atArthur's head in, uh, in the
west end of Fremantle.
So it sort of overlooks, um, thewater and you can sort of see
the port and it's this likevantage point.

(30:58):
So originally he was theredrawing, realized that he's late
and goes home for dinner.
When he gets there, the Willisfamily are coming over for
dinner and so many people who'dread the book had gone, but the
Willis family and the Kellerfamily hate each other.
Yes.
So why would they ever havedinner together?
And I'm going, yeah.
But it's a one-upmanship thing,you know?
Um, Robert Willis just wants toshow George Keller that he's so

(31:21):
much better than him, so he'scoming to his house so that he
can criticize his furniture.
And it just never made sense.
And also, one beta readerpointed out that they were
eating dinner and the meal wentfrom being like roast chicken to
being roast lamb, to being roastbeef, to back to being roast
chicken because I just hadn'treally paid attention to
continuity.
So that was an embarrassinglylate pickup.
Um, but how, yeah.

(31:41):
So I think it's really hard.

I think it's hard to know where to start a
novel.
I think that's one, it's reallyhard.
Yeah.
And once you find the rightplace, yeah.
It all flows from there doesn't,yeah.
So many potholes and, and issuesjust start to unravel.

Yeah.
So I thought, you know, where,where did two.
16, 17 year olds meet each otherin party.
1930s, Perth a party.
So how do I get him to a partywith her rich friends?
And the answer was, maybe he'sworking there.
So at this point, I had added inhis best mate, Lockie, who's

(32:17):
probably my favorite character.
Aside from the main charactersin the whole book, he's a
football player.
He's a star full forward forSouth Mantle Football Club who
just won the Waffle Grand finaltwo weeks ago.
So that was pretty cool.
Um, not that I know anythingabout sport other than the names
of the club, but you know, um, Igot, I sent them some copies of
my book and they got someplayers to pretend to read it

(32:38):
after it came out.
Uh, yeah.
So Lockie gets Winston into thisparty.
Well, he tries to, they try toget some work and uh, Winston
gets turned away'cause they'relate, so he's hanging around
outside.
When Sarah walks across the lawnwith her high heeled shoes, sort
of stinking into the grass andshe needs someone's arm to lean
on to get inside.
So that's how they meet.

(32:59):
Meet.
Cute.
Yeah.

Beautiful.
No, I, I love that scene.

Darcy Green (33:07):
Hello, I'm Darcy Green and my debut novel after
The Siren was just released by aPenguin Random House after the
Siren is a queer romantic comedyabout two A FLM players with
some history who unexpectedlybecome teammates and gradually
work out that they don't dislikeone another.
After all, I'm a long timereader and writer of Queer

(33:27):
Romance and I love stories thatCenter Queer Joy.
I'm also a long time footy fan,and the idea for after The Siren
came to me when I was reading alot of sports romance and
couldn't find the a FL romance Iwas craving.
Never fear, though I'm reliablytold that you don't have to like
a FL to enjoy this book, thoughthere are definitely some treats
in there for footy fans for areally long time.

(33:50):
Stories about queer romancetended to focus on trauma and
difficulty.
Those are very importantstories, but I believe it's
essential that we get all sortsof queer stories, including
romantic comedies full of onfield and off field tension,
sunshine, joy, and footy shorts.
I had so much fun writing afterthe siren.

(34:10):
If you pick it up, I really hopeit makes you smile.
Thank you.

Okay, so.
You found out the place tostart,

then

what?

Then the Fogarty Award was open for entries
again, and so that gave me adeadline to get everything
finished.
I said to my writer's group, um,shout out to the history writer
salon, uh, that I was gonna sendit.
And they were very encouraging.
And I think it was the nightbefore entries closed, I was
still trying to decide on atitle to give the book because

(34:46):
Freemantle Press had rejectedthis particular manuscript a few
times before under differenttitles.
So I thought if they see thetitle that it used to have, they
will know it's the same book andmaybe not even read it.
So I've gotta disguise it.
Um, and it was a ridiculouslyshort amount of time after
entries closed that I had amissed call from Fremantle
Press, which when theyeventually rang me back, was to

(35:09):
say I had made it onto a shortlist of six writers.
They wouldn't only have a shortlist of so many writers, but
that they couldn't really.
Separate anyone out to be longlist rather than shortlist
level.
But they sort of tempered theexpectations by saying We're not
going to publish all six, justso you know.
I'm sort of going, yep, okay.

(35:31):
Don't get too excited.
And then there was a, what wasthat moment like though?
Oh gosh.
Well, I was at work and theywere sort of like, don't tell
anybody.
And I'm going, everyone'swatching me talk on the phone.
Um, how can you not?
It was pretty surreal.
You can't, you not the secret.
Can you?
I know.
Well, can you imagine, I thinkit's the Vogel, where you would
know for months that you'd wonand you weren't allowed to tell
anybody.
Can you imagine doing that?

(35:51):
No, it's impossible.
No.
All you wanna do is shout and belike, my book is getting
published.
Um, yeah.
So the Fogarty literary awardceremony was in May of 2023.
It was freezing cold.
We were at Edith CowenUniversity in Mount Lawley, in
the Spiegel tent, which wasbeautiful visually, but not very
good at keeping out theelements.

(36:12):
So we had to sit.
To the side of stage for most ofthe, the evening.
They were also doing readingsfrom other books and things.
And then we sat through theannouncement of the winner where
they brought each of us up toget our shortlist certificates.
And then we went back to ourlittle wooden chairs and
pretended that our teeth weren'tchattering and we weren't
freezing.
And then they announced thewinner.
And it wasn't me, it wasCatherine Allen for her amazing

(36:34):
book, the Skeleton House, um,which is just such a fantastic
read.
So, um, if you haven't readthat, please read it and.
So then the adrenaline all sortof let down and I realized how
cold I was and I like rushed offthe side of stage.
Um, and Emma Young, anotherFremantle press author who has
been shortlisted for the award,gave me a hug and I'm going, oh,
don't hug me or cry.

(36:55):
And then Georgia Richter, who isthe publisher at F Freemantle
Press, came over to give me ahug as well and to tell me that
they still wanted to publish thebook.
And I said, I tried to disguiseit by giving it a new title
'cause you've rejected itbefore.
And she said, I know.
'cause you don't get anythingpast Georgia.
That's why she's such a goodeditor.

(37:15):
So what changed for FremantlePreston?
I think.
I had always been starting thebook in the wrong place.
Mm-hmm.
And I assume that publishers arevery busy people and if I had a
slow saggy start to my story,they never got to the good bit.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah.
So you have to put the good bit

first.
That is a really good tip.
Everybody.
That must have been the mostamazing night ever.
'cause not often do you get apublisher in person telling you
that they're gonna publish yourbook.

Um, yeah.
I mean, I'm pretty lucky herehaving Fremantle Press because I
have known people from thatpublisher for a long time in
various contexts.
Um, I've reviewed books for thempreviously.
Their team is often out atevents, so I had met a lot of
these people before as well.

(38:06):
Um, so.
Yeah, I mean, to, to get a hugfrom Georgia and have her tell
me in person that she wanted topublish the book was really,
really cool.
I didn't end up working withGeorgia as my editor.
I worked with Rachel Hanson, whoshe was incredible and very
thorough, and also gives amazingpep talks when I'm having an

(38:26):
anxiety spiral.
So, um, yeah, that whole team isjust incredible people.
So let,

let's talk a little bit about the setting of
the novel, um, in Fremantle.
Um, I think your novel, it, itdoes so well.
It really anchors you in timeand place, and, and that's what
good historical fiction does.
It, it transports you, um, butyou don't overdo it.
You don't take too manyliberties by you, you, you never
do it in a way that itcompromises the flow of the

(38:54):
story.
Like the story is very much atits heart.
But, um, I loved beingtransported to Fremantle that
time.
Can you talk a little bit aboutthe research that went into that
and how important the settingis?

Yeah, I mean, I, I do worry at times that my
writing is too, uh, WesternAustralian, that it's too like,
I don't know, parochial becausewhen I did my honors year at the
end of my first uni degree, Ilooked at, um, nostalgia in West
Australian fiction and whetheror not Western Australian
fiction was its own genre andwhat the hallmarks were, and

(39:27):
sort of identified that WestAustralian fiction kind of has
this very self-referentialstreak to it, where it's just
kind of trying to almost likejustify its own existence and
write back against the, theliterary, um, conglomerate of
Sydney and Melbourne.
So.
I am lucky in a way that workingwith a local West Australian

(39:48):
publisher, that they've been tothese places, they love them as
much as I do, and they werewilling to let me leave in as
much of that speci specificityto Western Australia, um, as
they did.
Have you been to Fremantleyourself, Madeleine?
I, I didn't

wanna admit Emily.
I've never been past LA goingwest.
Mm-hmm.

You'll have to come like, you know, I would love to
tech festival if you'relistening, butterfly, women,
like get on that.
Um, yeah.
So the place is almost like acharacter in the book is one of
the things that we decided on.
And so, um, you may or may notbe aware, Fremantle was the

(40:29):
busiest Allied Naval port in theSouthern hemisphere in World War
ii, and it was the secondbusiest Allied Naval port in the
world with the first one beingPearl Harbor.
Mm.
So.
December, 1941, Pearl Harbor is bombed, and
subsequently the Americansjoined the war, and by March,
1942, Fremantle is full ofBritish, Dutch and American

(40:50):
submariners.
There is a submarine base inFremantle Harbor, which is
supposed to be kept secret, butI think it's virtually
impossible that nobody knewabout it because suddenly there
were all these armed forcespersonnel walking around in
naval uniforms that brought asense of security and fun and
novelty to the town.

(41:10):
But it also would've brought adegree of anxiety as well,
because suddenly, you know, mostof the American Navy.
Is based outta Fremantle, andthat makes Fremantle a big
target.
Mm.
So it became this sort of hub of activity as it
had been in other wars as well.
Um, a lot of tro ships left fromFremantle.

(41:31):
Um, it's a, a town that is veryless of a residential area and
more of a business andmanufacturing and shipyard type
area.
Even today, you know, there arepeople who live.
In Fremantle, but people tend tolive more in the outer suburbs.
And the closer you get toFremantle port, the more it's

(41:52):
businesses now.
We get lots of container shipsand cruises going in and out of
there.
So I assume there would've beencruises in and out of there
earlier in the 20th century aswell, but maybe not while the
wall was going on.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so it's a very busy sort ofhub of activity and it's a mix
of different class backgroundsand also of different cultural

(42:12):
backgrounds.
So post World War ii, um, therewere a lot of Greek and Italian
migrant.
Communities that sort of settledin that area.
So now we have very famous fishand chip shops like cis and CA
brothers and yeah.
So it's, it's a very interestingplace.
It's a place I spent a lot oftime in my teenage years, so I

(42:33):
did something that we Oh, I'm sojealous, Emily.
That's, I think parts ofMelbourne would be like that too
though.
I mean, before we startedrecording, we were talking about
the state library of Victoriaand that's got that beautiful
reading room.

There are some parts with the desk in the
middle, although, um, I hadn'tset the much of my book in, um,
sort of those grand buildings.
It was more just in the slumsand Yeah.
And those got demolished to makeway for fancy houses.
That's right.
That's right.
So it's wonderful having thatvisual, isn't it?
And yeah, and looking straightsand even of course, you just
have to transplant images ofwhat it would've been, because

(43:04):
obviously taking away all themodern Yeah,

I mean, I think, you know, there's the, the
element of like, the more thingschange, the more they stay the
same too because mm-hmm.
I think some.
Ways of thinking would have youimagining that a hundred years
ago the past was so differentand you can't even, but actually
I, people are just people andthere would be some things that
would be different, but therewould be some things that are

(43:29):
essentially just the same, likeabout, you know, the things that
teenagers wanna do and theirparents aren't looking and
about, you know, blokes gettingjealous over girls and fighting.
Like there's some things thatare just universal.
And I love this idea thathistorical fiction is a bridge
between now and then.
So there may be some thingsthat.
Occasionally feeling a littlebit too modern or in particular

(43:52):
I'm thinking about things to dowith views about gender and
class and race.
And a lot of heroines inhistorical fiction are very
ahead of their time in terms oftheir, their worldview and their
belief in what women can do andbe.
And I think that's becausehistorical fiction is a bridge,
it's a way of doing that timetravel.
Mm-hmm.
So having the setting be asaccurate as possible and trying

(44:15):
to get that five senses sort ofview of the world in is really
important.
So in, um, I think it was 2014or something like that, my mom
and I went down to Fremantlewith the explicit purpose of
doing site specific research andbringing out the setting.
And she walked around takingphotos of old buildings and, you
know, I would sort of say like,that house looks like Winston's

(44:36):
house.
So she'd take a photo of it forme and um, and then she had me
lie on the grass up at the roundhouse and.
Described to her what I couldhear and what I could smell and
what I could feel, and I had tohave my eyes closed the whole
time.
So listening to, there's a bigflag post behind the round house
where there's an old cannon, um,on display, and you could hear
the metal part of the, the hoistfor the flag hitting the mast of

(45:01):
the flag in time with the wind,and you could hear seabirds and
ship horns and yeah, it wasreally, really invaluable.
So when you talk about research.
Even though most people's mindsare going to sitting in a room
full of archives going throughservice records and photos, um,
I think that site specific stuffis really important too.
And if you can go to the placesyou're writing about or to what

(45:25):
they are now and maybe stripaway some of those layers of
modernity, definitely do
Mm,
great

tips.
Um, the way you were talkingabout it, you, you, it's almost
like you are talking about itlike a character itself, which I
think is wonderful and you arevery, you're really so lit up
when you talk about it, Emily,so clearly it's something, you
know, that's really touched youand been part of your life for
so long.
Um, there's also a section ofthe novel set along the Thai

(45:51):
railway, um, and um, we won'tgive any spoilers away, but
it's, um, very much focused onthe prisoner of war camps there.
Mm-hmm.
Um, how, what about that,because that, that was, um, uh,
quite extraordinary part of thenovel and you, you approached it
so sensitively as well.

Yeah, well, I mean, I felt.
Very much that I had to do itjustice.
Um, I sort of stumbled intowriting about that because when
Winston does enlist, I looked atwhere he might have ended up.
And when I learned about thefall of Singapore and what
happened, uh, after February,1942 to men who had been

(46:28):
stationed in that area, that ledme to things like the Santa Can
Death marches and the um, ThaiBiral way and, uh, all sorts of
horrible things that happened inthat region.
And so I originally had writtena very sort of brief glossing
over of what happened to Winstonduring the war.
I was, you know, quite youngwhen I started the book, and I

(46:50):
didn't have any understanding ofhow I could research that period
without getting on a plane andgoing to Thailand or going to
Burma.
I had been to Singapore and um,you know, been to Changi
Airport, but I'd never been toany of the historical sites and
I still haven't been to many ofthose places.
You know, it just isn't.
Always possible for writers togo to the places that they want

(47:14):
to write about.
But I knew that I had to writeabout it properly and I had to
find a way to do it justice.
Particularly when in, I think itwas 2013, the Narrow Road to the
Deep North came out and I went,oh damn, somebody else has
written about the Ty Railway.
And then he went and won theBloody Booker prize for it.
So, um, you know, my biggestworry when this book came out in

(47:35):
April was that people were gonnathink I'd copied, even though
I'd already been writing aboutthe Ty Railway.
So,'cause the TV show, it cameout, um, two weeks after my book
did.
So it was all front of mind fora lot of people, including me.
And so.
I just had to do as muchresearch as I could by reading

(47:55):
firsthand accounts, by readingthe War Diaries of Weary Dunlop
and the, um, the diaries ofsomebody called Jack Chalker,
who was a British, um, pilot whohad been in many of the same
camps as Weary Dunlop and haddrawn a lot of the scenes.
So his artwork and the ways thathe hid his artwork.
Sort of feed into some parts ofWinston's experience and yeah.

(48:17):
So I read a lot ofself-published accounts of being
in those camps, and I read a lotof, um,

secondary documents.
You did such a good job.
And I was actually wondering, asI was reading the book, um,
obviously Winston goes off towar.
Yeah.
And I was wondering how youwould, because it, the novels
told from both Winston andSarah's perspectives.
Yeah.
And I was, and, and it, it, andit doesn't switch.
It's sort of, you know, they'rein chunks and I was wondering
how you were going to do thatand reflect the experiences.

(48:49):
And I think you are absolutelyright.
You couldn't gloss oversomething like that.
It is transformative.
No, it's, um, you know, a reallyimportant part of the, his
experience and his story.
And you did it in such a.
Beautiful way.
I was just, I couldn't put itdown that whole section.
I had to read it from start tofinish.
It was it, and it's, it wasalmost like a short story in

(49:11):
inside a story, um, inside anovel.
And I could see your short storyskills coming through, I think
in that as well.
So yeah, you did it a, you did areally good job.
Oh, thank you.
Um, I would like to talk about.
Your experience as a librarianjust briefly'cause I know that
we're running out of time.
Oh, sorry.
I talk too much.

(49:32):
No, this has been so, sointeresting.
Um, libraries are just wonderfulplaces.
My mom used to be a librarian.
Um, I love, I used to go to thelibraries every week as a little
girl for years and years andyears, and I still use
libraries.
Um, they're also great forauthors, um, to work hand in
hand with LI libraries as well.

(49:52):
It's an opportunity for us tonot just promote our books, but
um, you know, be part of, Isuppose, the writing community
and earn a little bit of extraadditional income as well.
Do you have any top tips forauthors and how to work with
libraries?
Approach libraries, pitchevents.

Yeah, I mean it can really vary depending on how
each library does their events,if they're in a position to do
their events.
Um, I mean, libraries rely onfunding.
Um, I don't know what it's likein other states, but in Western
Australia, public libraries getfunding from their local council
and also some funding from thestate library, and that's sort
of, their collection is builtusing.

(50:33):
The two different pots of money.
And then maybe they also getfunding from their council
budget to put towards doingevents.
Some libraries that money wouldbe split across adults and
children's events, and I knowthat when that's the case, a few
places really have to prioritizethat.
Children's events because thereis so much demand from the

(50:55):
community for things thatsupport young people and, um,
you know, get that lifelonglearning thing started.
But if you are lucky enough tohave a library in your area that
puts on events, what I would sayis make sure that you have your
media release sheet ready to go,which has got your blurb of your
book, the cover of your book,your blurb, all of the

(51:17):
information like the ISBN andthe price point and who to
contact about events so that youcan, if you're going in, in
person, leave a piece of paperthat's not just like a scrap
with your email address writtenon it.
Um, or you can email it to them.
Uh, I would say don't do a bulkemail where you put every single
library's email address in thetwo line, and you know, to whom

(51:38):
it may concern.
And here's the same email, likemaybe it'd be a little bit.
Strategic about it and identifya few libraries that are ones
that do events like the kind ofthing that you are proposing,
and do them first and, you know,do a few batches, um, rather
than that scatter gun approach.
And I would also say like, startwith libraries where you're a

(51:59):
member, where you're an activeuser.
Like start with libraries whereyou have met some of the staff
and you have a bit of arelationship.
Um, you know, I have been knownwhen I've had an author approach
me when I've been on the frontdesk.
And, and I will say that I don'treally have any sway over who
gets booked at our libraries.
I can suggest people, but thereare people higher up in the

(52:19):
ranks than me who make thesedecisions.
But I, I will occasionally, ifsomebody comes in.
To talk about their book andsay, you know, we want the book
to be in the library and wewould like to do an event, and
here is the information.
I will look up and see ifthey're a member.
Mm.
Because when I then pass thatinformation on to my bosses, if
they are a member, if they'resomeone who lives in our local

(52:39):
community, libraries often havein their collection development
guidelines or in their policies,something about supporting
members of their community whoare writing.
You know, we at the library, Iwork, have a local authors
collection.
So if you are living in one ofthe suburbs that is part of our
council area and you havewritten a book, they will put it
into the local authorscollection, even if it's not

(53:03):
strictly relevant to.
Any of the other collectiondevelopment principles, it's
about preserving the culturalheritage of our area, and it
almost sits with local historyin that way.
So be familiar with yourlibrary.
You know, go to other libraryevents, talk to the staff, be
friendly.
Borrow books from there.
Be part of your librarycommunity and start with your

(53:23):
local library where you're amember of the community because
if they can support you, theywill try.
They're darnedest to, to dosomething for you.

Yeah.
And librarians are great people,so just chat.
It's always good to just go inand have a chat and talk books.
Yeah.

Librarians love talking about books like, please
come and talk about books withme.
I, I specialize in somethingcalled Reader's Advisory, which
is basically telling people whatto read.
So I'm happy to pig in mud.

That's a fantastic job.
I was just reflecting when youwere talking about approaching
your local library.
Um, I, um, booked an event withvia local library because, um, I
mean, I regularly visit theremyself, but my mom was down
there and she was just chattingto the librarians and then she
pitched my book to the, the, um,lady at the counter who happened

(54:09):
to be the events person for thelibrary.
That was lucky.
I know.
And so I got a phone call, afrantic conversation.
I was traveling for work and itwas my mom, and she said, quick,
quick, Madeline, send them anemail.
They're, they're finalizingtheir schedule, but you have to
email them tonight.

Yeah, actually that's an important point too.
Like the schedule is a bigthing.
Um, you know, I think six weeksis roughly a good amount of time
for the event to be beingpublicized, to get a decent
sized audience.
So, uh, you know, if yourlibrary service has a, a
schedule of how often they putout their event.

(54:47):
So if they do a brochure thatcovers like a two month period,
you know, um, October, November,December, I think would be being
worked on now.
So they've already lockedeverything in.
They're doing the designing now.
So I wouldn't go in and expectthem to be able to find you a
spot in November when it's thefirst week of October.
You need to be prepared to pitchthem something.

(55:08):
That's going to be in the futureat some point.
So if your book is coming out inyours was end of April, wasn't
it?
So you probably would've beenlooking at speaking to them.
End of January, early February,so that you could have all those
discussions and then they couldhave made the decisions by the
time they start reserving thespots in that next program.
Uh, I think we get approached alot of people with short

(55:30):
timelines and then they getdisappointed.

It's a, it's a really good point, Emily.
And actually, like, I'd lined upa couple of libraries, um, by
just going to the events theprevious year and talking to the
librarians about the book comingout.
Um, and I think knowing theaudience as well and what
they're interested in and so,um.
And I actually did those forfree and I said, I don't, I'm
happy to waive the fee, um,because it's during my promo

(55:54):
month.
Um, and I said, I think that wasmore, um, amenable than if I had
sort of, and because I thinklibraries, like you said, have
limited budget, but I think youalso as an author have to make
the point that you, you are, youare coming in presenting for
free, um, because it's duringthe promo period because Yeah.
Otherwise they might come backand say, do you wanna do another
talk for free again?
Exactly.

(56:14):
Exactly.
Yeah.
Where you might have to, you'renot on leave from work and you
might have to take that time.
So, um, yeah, it's an importantpoint.
Um, my local library actuallydoes their, um, scheduling six
months out.
Six months,

yeah.
Wow.
So they would do like a big

glossy brochure or something?
They do.
They do, yeah.
And um, so I'm talking with themabout now, about doing an event
in May.
So we've lost time in May nextyear.
So it's time.
And I

think, you know, knowing your library service and
knowing how they do theirevents, it's gonna be really
obvious to the library staffthat you don't know how they do
their events if you are not.
Aware of that sort of timeline.
You know, if you're going inthis week to say, let's do
something in November.
Yeah.
They're going, well, youobviously don't know we have a
six month lead time for ourbrochure.
Exactly.

(56:58):
So you just

have to ask the questions to go.
Yeah.
It's nice going in in person Ithink.
And so, so when you

approached people after the events that you
attended as an audience member,were you bringing business cards
with you or did you have like a,a fact sheet or what did you do?

Well, um, I mean it was convenient'cause my
mom had actually worked at thebranch.
Mm-hmm.
So when mom and I would, we always go and
attend a particular branch'sevents and so we, I think we
were on our third or fourth andmom knew the staff there so that
she introduced me.
So I had sort of an in, um, andthen with the other one where I
didn't have an in, um, I.

(57:33):
I actually had attended a coupleof events and then afterwards
sent an email, um, following upand said, yeah, you know, this
is who I am.
Um, this is what I can add.
I know it's similar to some ofthese events that I've attended.
Um, would you be interested, andI think working with your
publicist on this as well in thelead up period?
Yeah, because I, my publicistdid, did pitch to libraries, um,

(57:55):
for events.
Um, but she didn't actually haveany success with that.
So it was through like myconnections and, and being part
of the community that I actuallygot and booked those events
rather than through mypublicist.
But at every technic time I wastelling her, I'm actually gonna
go to this library now.
And she said, yep, no worries.
Yeah, work with

your publicist because you don't wanna be
pitching and they're alsopitching and Exactly.
Working at cross purposes, butabsolutely having your face
attached and going andintroducing yourself is gonna be
so much more.
Memorable than an email from apublicist that might not just be
about your book.
It might be like, here are thefour books we have coming out in
the next couple of months.

(58:34):
Exactly.
Yeah,

exactly.
So, no, it's good.
Um, I just, I know we're wayover time, but I just wanna also
talk about your work as a bookreviewer as well.
How did you get into that?

Oh gosh.
Uh, I had a blog from probablyaround 2008 as well.
When I decided that I was gonnabe a serious writer, I set up a
blog and it was through like theGoogle platform for blogging,
which is called Blogger.
And I just started reviewing thebooks that I was reading, um, as
a way of having content to puton there rather than just these

(59:07):
like really earnest diaryentries that most of the
embarrassing ones have beendeleted now.
So like, just don't even look,they're not there.
Um, but I started occasionallybeing sent books from publishers
because I had done a few reviewsand they weren't getting like.
Viral levels of, of engagementor anything like that.
But, uh, I started to feel like,yeah, okay, I'm kind of good at

(59:28):
this.
So my friend Simon, is the bookseditor for the AU review.
And I, uh, he either approachedme or I asked him how I could
get involved.
And I think I've been reviewingbooks for the au review for
about eight years now.
Um, last year I published about20 book reviews.
This year I'm gonna try and dothe same number and I've also

(59:51):
started doing TV reviews becausein my downtime, after all the
promo of doing book tours andthings like that, not that I did
much of a tour, but it was stillexhausting.
I was watching ridiculousamounts of tv.
So I thought, well, how can I atleast turn this into something
because I haven't published abook review in a really long
time and they're gonna get alittle bit anxious that I'm not.

(01:00:11):
Turning anything in.
So I reviewed a few TV shows aswell.
Um, yeah, so it's a, a reallyfantastic Australian site that
mostly focuses on like musicand, um, concerts.
And they do quite a lot of moviereviews, but we have a really
active books department.
Um, there's about, oh gosh, Ithink there's about five of us

(01:00:31):
at the moment who are reallyactively reviewing books.
Um, and because of my connectionwith the debut crew, I've tried
to connect as many debutAustralian authors with a
reviewer as I can, schedules,permitting.
Just so that we can help in anyway we can with that
discoverability issue.

Madeleine Cleary (01:00:49):
Oh, Emily, you are quite a remarkable person, I
must say.
You, you have so many hands andso many pies, but I think it's,
it all centers like what we weresaying at the start about, about
books.
You know, you are such achampion of Australian writing,
of debut writing and wa writing.
You've um, you're a library,your book advisory, you are

(01:01:11):
writing book reviews.
Um, you know, you are anindustry citizen.
An excellent example of anindustry.
Love that Industry citizen.
That's right.
That's Kate Melbourne Hall'sterm for it.
I love that.
And you are an excellent exampleof it.
So we're lucky to have you,Emily.
Um, in the spirit of that, canyou recommend a day novel?

Emily Paull (01:01:30):
I mean, it would be remiss of me not to recommend
the Butterfly women, um, butbecause I can see that you're
embarrassed.
I bought some backups, um,brought by her hand by Marian
ta, which is.
Violent and brutal.
Uh, brutal.
Yeah, that's, that's the bestword for it.
It's beautiful and brutal and,uh, just so deep and yeah, it

(01:01:54):
was incredible.
And also, uh, the Daughters ofBatavia by Stephanie Cos another
WA debut writer.
Most people know about theshipwreck of the Batavia off
Gerald's coast.
And that's a really, reallybeautiful novelization of some
of the things that might havehappened on the ship.

I love it.
And you've gone historicalfiction to have to Yeah.
On theme.
Yeah.
Okay, so we're gonna end, as wealways do with your number one
top tip for writers, Emily.
Oh gosh.

Emily Paull (01:02:23):
Um, pretend to retire, like actually mean it if
you need to, but that's true.
Yeah.
Pretend to retire if you need abreak.

That's a great way to end it, I think.
Um, and it's, it's aninteresting concept as well,
pretending to retire as well.
You like, you know, that you'realways gonna come back, but
giving yourself a break isreally important.
Yeah.
And 17 years in the making, uh,the distance between dreams is
now available and outeverywhere.
I highly recommend you, you pickup a copy.

(01:02:53):
It's a beautiful book.
Um, and Emily is a wonderfulindustry citizen, so thank you
for joining us, Emily.
Thank you so much for having me.

X (01:03:05):
Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast.
We're able to bring you theseweekly writerly chats because of
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Join the TPD Family by becominga member of our Patreon
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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Emily Paull on "retiring" from writing and her 17-year journey to publishing The Distance Between Dreams

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Emily Paull on "retiring" from writing and her 17-year journey to publishing The Distance Between Dreams

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