Gareth and Louise Ward on the business of bookselling and writing bestselling cosy crime

Episode Transcript
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(00:09):
This is the Book Deal podcastwhere you will discover the
inspiring stories, the authorsbehind your favorite books.
No matter what sage of writingyou are at, we've got you
covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one
deal at a time.

Madeleine Cleary (00:29):
The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters, which it's recorded
on and pays respect to theirelders past, present, and
emerging.
Gareth and Louise Ward arewriters, excos from the UK and
the owners of IndependentBookshop, Ardini books in New

(00:49):
Zealand.
Their second novel writtentogether in the bestselling
bookshop, detective series, teaand Cake and Death features
their beloved ex Copper andBookstore owning Protagonists,
Garth and Eloise.
Gareth is the author of TheTarquin, the Honest and the Rise
of the Remarkables book series,as well as being the bestselling
and award-winning author of TheTraitor and The Thief, and The

(01:13):
Clock Hill and the Thief.
Louise has one murder arrest toher name is an English
literature graduate, and as anex-teacher inflected Shakespeare
on inner city 12 year olds.
I had a ball chatting withGareth and Louise about plotting
and co-writing as a couple, andthe business of book selling and
writing, and they so generouslyshared their tips for writers

(01:34):
about how we can best worktogether with booksellers.
I loved Louise's message aboutforging meaningful relationships
and Gareth's very honest advicetoo.
If it's not going well, suck itup and move forward.
Gareth and Louise Ward, welcometo the Book Deal Podcast.

Louise Ward (01:55):
Thank you for having us.
Thank you.

And I got your names correct as well.
I didn't call you by theprotagonists of your series.

We haven't made it hard, uh, easy for people, have
we?

No, I love it.
Um, you know, I was reallyinterested in your story
because, uh, my husband and I,we actually met working at a
book shop and we worked togetherin a bookstore for years, and I
think there's something veryromantic.
People think about workingtogether in bookshops.
What do you think?

Yeah, I suppose there is really, you know, it's
a lot of people's dream to own abookshop, isn't it?
If you, if you have that, if youhave the, the, the initial
romance of books and stories andadventures, and then you bring
human romance into it, then it'sa bit of a winner.
Um, we're not particularlyromantic people.
We've got a very strong, astrong and happy relationship,

(02:42):
but I wouldn't say we're, we'rechocolates and flowers.
Cut types, other

caning in the bookshelves then.

Gareth Ward (02:48):
I eat a lot of chocolate, but yeah.
Oh, he does,

but he doesn't give it to me, so he, no romance.

We, we met at police training college, not in
the bookshop.
So yeah, it was a bit Thatwasn't

romantic.
No.
So what was your firstimpressions of each other when
you first met at the policecollege, as you

straight

in there?

Well, uh.
Louise was known as theRottweiler at Police training
college because she tended tobite everyone's head off.
So that must been my firstimpression of Louise.
I think,

can I just say I was 20 years old.
I had a lot going on in my life,so yeah, I was a little bit
ratty and just trying to work myway through, uh, what was
happening in the world andbecoming a very young police
officer.
Um.
And interestingly, um, so we, Iwas from Nottinghamshire Police
and Gareth was fromNorthampshire Police and we,
there's a central policetraining college where you all

(03:38):
get together from the differentforces.
And in our little class therewere, um, were there just the
two of you from Northampton?
Northampton, yeah.
Yeah.
So he and our friend Darren andthe rest of the class called
them the Northamptonshire Mafia.
'cause they were just like, so,um.
I dunno.
So onto it and a little bit,little bit overconfident, shall
we say.

(03:58):
So yeah, the, the firstimpressions were overconfident
and aggressive.

Might even say arrogant, possibly.

Oh, I love that.
And so for listeners who aren't,who haven't read yet, the
bookshop Detective Universe, soyou are now, you've just
released book two, which iscalled Tea and Cake and Deaths.
That came out the start of themonth, and I love that title, by
the way.
Did, is that something that youguys came up with or was that
the publisher?

No, it was all we came up with it.
I think there's lots of sort of,um.
Tea and cake, uh, bookshopreferences as it Eddie.
Is it odd sketch that, um, teaand cake and,

no, it's tea and cake or death.

Tea and cake.
Or death.
Or death, yeah.

Really.
So that was a bit ofinspiration.
Play it

all, all over the place.
Yeah.

Oh, I love it.
Um, so could you give us,Louise, perhaps a bit of an
insight into your two crimefighting bookshop owning.
Protagonist and their names areGarth and Eloise.
Mm.

Yeah.
Which does make it tricky forpeople, interviewers such as
yourself.
You

made it very tough.

Yeah.
And I apologize for that.
So when we first, it wasGareth's idea to write a book
together.
He's the author of, uh, sixnovels before the bookshop
detectives.
Yes.
Um, and we, we thought, well,what, what should we write
about?
Well, we know about policingback in the day, and we know
about running a bookshop and,and being booksellers.
So we thought we'd, we'd playaround with those environments

(05:20):
and create a cozy crime novel.
We wanted it to be cozy becausewe still wanted people to visit
our real life bookshop withoutfear of being eviscerated or
something awful.
So, um, that was the, thegenesis of it.
And then we just really playedwith the experiences that we've
had in real life of beingcoppers and booksellers and, um,
created the story through that.

(05:41):
Hence, uh, a bit of confusion.
Yeah.
Over the names, but we thoughtit was just a bit of a giggle to
begin with.
We didn't know it would reallygo anywhere.
And about halfway through wethought, no, we've got something
here.
And by then we were so invested,I think, in what we created that
we didn't really want to changeit.

Yes.
We just, we just lent into thefact that it was, you know, to
start with, it was a joke onourselves.
And then once it started tobecome actually quite good, we
thought, oh, we'll just leaninto it because everyone's gonna
recognize it's our bookshopanyway.
So we just have fun with it.
So, so I guess in the book, thetwo characters, um, Garth and
Eloise, um, their ex-cop,they've come to New Zealand for
a reason that sort of laterbecomes apparent.

(06:18):
Um, and they're running thisbookshop in Havelock North when.
Sort of a, a cold case fallsinto their lap that they start
investigating and at the sametime, this sort of serial killer
nemesis from the past startsintruded into their present.
So a literary

agent, which made me laugh.
Yes.

Yeah.
Yeah.
We were, I mean, the, the whole,because it was set in a
bookshop, we thought we'd gowith lots of literary themes and
mentioned lots of authors andthings like that.
Because David

Williams, I remember

one time because it's cozy crime, it, you know,
it's supposed to be a little bittongue in cheek, a little bit
funny.
It's not like a.
Procedure where you've gotta bereally serious.
So we just thought we'd have funwith it.
Really.

Yeah.

The humor's a major part of it.

Yeah, and that's what I loved about it.
And why do you think readersthese days are gravitating
towards cozy crime?
Garris?
Do you have any insights intothat?

I, I think it's 'cause the world's so messed up.
Basically, I think the world isgoing to hell of the hand
basket.
I think people just wanna escapefor a little bit and they could
do that in a book.
So I think that's probably thethe reason.
And we've had people coming tothe bookshop and say, this is
exactly the book that I neededat this moment, because it just
gave me a bit of a lift.

Are you finding that people are coming
to your bookshop because of thebook?
Are they on, like, are theytouring to your bookshop?

What happened to you this morning?

Oh yeah.
I just, I just popped into thebookshop, so I was transferring
books where I, the bookshop tothe, the Havelock one.
Uh, and there was a lady fromSydney who I don't think she'd
come all the way to ourbookshop, you know, just from
Sydney, just for that.
But she said, I, I had to makesure that I came into the
bookshop.
So we signed her a copy and hada photo with her, so, so yeah,
we are getting a few destinationtourists, which is lovely.

Oh, that's amazing.
So, um, I suppose I wanna goback in time a little bit to
your early start because I thinkthe story behind the story for
you both is really, reallyimportant.
This one,'cause it is so much ofyour personal stories are inside
this.
So can you give us an insightabout what's true, what.
Maybe you like, did Louise, didyou actually bust a literary

(08:16):
agent?
Help out and, and I'm quotethis, um, to remove the
inadequate scribblings from theliterary canon, which I love.

No, not quite.
I mean, that's just a jokeabout, you know, I mean we, we,
we've got a wonderful industry.
The book selling industry isamazing and it's collegial, uh,
and, um.
The ecosystem of writers,publishers, booksellers.
It's, it is a wonderful, uh,world in which to live.
But you know, there is a bit ofliterary snobbery out there, so
it's just a little bit of athumb thumbed nose at that kind

(08:48):
of thing.
So, no, I've never busted aliterary agent, serial killer.

But you haven't arrested someone for murderer,
which is,

yeah, we did turn up one time.
This is, well, I mean, it'sdecades ago, but, um.
Turned up just in a panda armyand the guy I was on shift with
and, um, a chap had murdered hiswife and it was quite elderly.
And, um, also directed us toanother home where he had also

(09:14):
taken out his elderly wife'sboyfriend who she'd been having
an affair with.
So it was this very elderlyperson, love triangle, which is,
um, yeah, yeah.
Kind of awful.
And, um.
We, yeah, we arrested himbecause we had to at the scene,
you know, but of course thenyou, you call it in and CID,
criminal investigationdepartment come in and re-arrest

(09:37):
him just to keep the chainclean.
So that was us out of it.
Never had anything to do with itagain.
So you just, uh, when you plug,you kind of just, um, first
responders argue and Yeah.
Gatekeepers for a bit.

So, so lots of, so the actual sort of crime side of
the, of the stories iscompletely fictitious.
'cause we were ex-co you know,there is a, a realism to the way
we think, the way we investateor the way we, the way the
characters investigate, um, theway they think.
Um, you know, and, and sort of,it, it is quite realistic in

(10:09):
that respect.

I.
And I think it's important forcrime writers to get it right as
well.
I know that a lot of riders dogo and seek a consultation with,
with exco like yourselves orwith current day Police, and I
think it's important to get thefacts right, isn't it?

I think so, I think it is probably more important
than police procedure.
Mm-hmm.
In our sort of stuff, you, youcan bend the rules a bit, but we
did, we have contacted various,um, police officers, um, medical
professionals and veterinaryprofessionals and all sorts to,
to get specific details Right.
Or at least so we know what theyare.
And then if we choose to likejust bend them a little bit for
the sake of story, at least weknow what we're doing is, is

(10:46):
sort of, you know.
Correct dish.

Mm-hmm.
And people are keen to help.
You know, I don't think writersshould ever be, uh, worried
about that.
If they've got a contact or theyknow someone who knows someone.
Just roll with that becausepeople would like you to get it
right.
I think, you know, it's nice.
Yeah, absolutely.
Rather than complain about itafterwards.
Why do these crime writers justmake stuff up all the time?

No, exactly.
And actually I had some advicefrom, um, a writer recently.
Apparently you can contactmedia, um, the media teams in.
Different, like in Australia,obviously we've got different
police forces you can reach outto the Victoria Police force,
their media team and, and askthem to consult things and isn't
that great?
I'm sure there are, there areother things in New Zealand and
across other states as well.

(11:27):
So, um, definitely lots of toolsout there to get to get that
right.
Um, so what drew you, so youobviously living in the uk, um,
police officers and then youdecide, oh, um, we're gonna move
across the other side of theworld and, and open a bookshop.
What, tell us a story aboutthat.

Um, my, I was teaching in the uk.
You, you were in it then.
Yeah.
Our children were quite little and uh, my brother
moved out here and he'd been outfor a few years and we thought,
well, we better go and visit.
And we came out in the summerand then we came the year after,
or a couple of years after inthe winter.
And it was just like paradise,you know, compared.

(12:06):
There's nothing wrong with theuk.
We're actually living in quite anice county.
Mm-hmm.
Weren't we, you know, a nicerural, rural county, but it just
seemed there were, there wasmore opportunity, the weather
was better.
Um, the people were a bit morechilled out and, and, um, just
really living their lives and wejust sought opportunities for
ourselves and our kids.
So we moved over here and I wasteaching here in Hastings for

(12:27):
quite a while, and initiallyGareth wanted to do nothing.
You were gonna be a beach bomb,weren't you?
Yes.
How did that work out?

Well, it didn't 'cause our house sale in the UK
fell through, so I had to get ajob it
to work.
Yeah.
Which was terrible.
So I got a job in it and thenthe bookshop in the village came
up for sale.
It was like, I went down, Ispoke to the owner and she said,
don't buy this bookshop'causeit's a complete dog.
But we thought we could turn itaround.
And so we, uh, we bought itanyway and against all advice.
And, uh, yeah, we, we did makea, a go of it and then, uh, then

(12:57):
I got.
Became a published author, andthen yeah, a couple of years ago
we decided to write together andhere we are.
Okay.

You have just skipped over a whole bunch of
stuff, so

Yes, yes.

I wanna dive into some of this.
Okay.
So you, so you bought thebookshop first, so that was,
that was before you decided tostart writing?
Or where had you been writingthis whole time?

Oh, I'd, I'd always been right.
I've always written really allmy life.
Um, you know, I had a bit of ahiatus when the kids were very
little, but, um, I've alwayswritten, I've belonged to
various writers groups.
Um, and then I think in 2015 Ientered, um, sort of a, a
manuscript into a, a, a storycompetition called the
Storylines Te Doura Award, andit won that competition.
And because of that I got apublishing contract with Walker

(13:39):
Books Australia.

Amazing.
So, hang on.
Is this the first competitionyou've ever entered?

Yeah, it was, I think actually, yeah,

it's a good strike rate.
Often there's, you know

it when Zealand.
In the uk you have to get, youcan't submit to publishers, you
have to get an agent, and that'sterrifically difficult.
Um, but over here, you, youknow, a lot of the publishers
will accept submissions or theywill have certain windows when
they will accept, uh, accept.
Um, submission.
So I I, I was just starting towrite the novel that the, became

(14:13):
the Trade on the Thief.
And I thought, well, what can Ido because of, you know,
differently to make this onework?
And so I actually did an onlinewriting course'cause we had the
bookshop so I couldn't go.
And I was sort of a residentialone.
So I did that and the novel cameout of that writing course and
then it won the competition.
And that's really whereeverything took off.
And I think once you've got oneunder your belt, it becomes a,
you know, it's still hard workbecomes a little bit easier

(14:34):
'cause people at least read yourmanuscript rather than sitting
on the slush pile.

Yeah.
And what about you, Louise?
How, how did you come towriting?
Had you always been interested?
Because I noticed you've got adegree in English literature.
Obviously you're a teacher aswell.
Has writing always beensomething that you've wanted to
do?

Yeah, I've always wanted to, but I've never done
it.
I've written a lot of nonfictionarticles for newspapers and, but
a lot of book reviewing.
Um, I think when you can getyour head around words like that
and, uh.
I'm quite articulate in the, inthe way that I can express
things, but I'd never reallythought of fiction writing.

(15:10):
And so it was Gareth's idea,'cause you like doing stuff
together with me.
And, um, we thought we'd justgive it a crack.
Oh, I had actually written that,and I always forget this.
I wrote a couple of plays forthe kids that I taught.
Yeah.
So I have actually done thatbefore so I can make a story
flow, but I always forget aboutthat for some reason.
So, um.
Yeah, we just gave it a crackand it seemed to work.

(15:31):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.

So who did you both come up with the idea
together?
'cause I'm so interested in whatit is like writing as a couple.
It doesn't, I mean, there areinstances where, you know,
writers, um.
Right.
We co-write together, um,thinking like Amy Kaufman and
Jay Christophe.
And Amy Kaufman is actually abig, um, co-writer and I've

(15:53):
listened to her speak about it.
And it's, I think, reallyinteresting as a couple though.
Um, I, I, it perhaps GrahamSimpson and, and ISTs, uh, you
know, to, I think about, um,where do you start?
Who comes up with the ideas?
How do you brainstorm?
How do you write?
What's the mechanics of it?

I think it was really, it was what do we know
about?
And, and, you know, we knowabout the.
So that's why we decided towrite crime, and we went Cozy
crime A, because it was popular,and b, because we did want
people to come to the bookshop.
So, um, we thought we'd go downthat route.

That's a very strategic, uh, way to do it
actually.
I like that.

Yeah.

Well, we've, we've spent a long time in this
business and it's not an easybusiness to be in, you know,
bookshops are closing all overthe place, so we're always
thinking about what's next?
What can we do?
How can we keep this beautifulthing relevant to everybody?
And I've digressed away fromwhat you were talking about.
So back to you.
No,

that, that was, so we thought, well, if we set it,
you know, in the bookshop, it'sclearly our bookshop, maybe it
will attract people and, youknow, just be good advertising
for the shop.
Um, and then we, I, I can't evenremember how we did the first
one.
We just started like thrashingsome ideas out about, about how
it might work.
And then once we'd got the ideaof the plot, we pl it chapter by

(17:09):
chapter.
So it's written chapter about,so I write Garth chapters.
Louise, I

got that.
Gareth.
Yes, yes, yes.

Louise chapters.
And, um, well, some people don'trealize that actually.
It's funny.
Really?
Yeah.
We thought it was quite obvious.
But when we do book talks andthat people are like, Ooh, I
didn't realize that you,

I think the voices are very distinct in
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.
I mean, and we both edit eachother's chapters, but, um, but
you know, we take.
You know, priority on ourchapter.
Um, and we planned out what wasgonna happen in each chapter.
Which key plot points had tohappen, but then it was up to,
you know, to either of us to howthat was gonna happen.
So it, so it was a delightbecause when you are, when I get
Louise's chapter, you know, Iknow what's gonna happen

(17:50):
supposedly, but I don't know ifI stick to the plan.
Yeah, if you stick to the plan,which doesn't always, isn't
always the case, but I dunno howso?
It's like I'm reading a novel atthe same time as I'm writing it,
which is really great funbecause I haven't written six
before.
It's a very lonely process, butthis one's much more fun.
I

can imagine it's, it's having collab
collaboration, I think inwriting an early draft.
I think'cause uh, I mean that'swhat people have writers groups
for, isn't it?
To, to have some of that earlycollaboration.
Um, but having that together,writing it together yeah.
I think is really interesting.
Yeah.
Um, so, okay, so, so you arewriting it together.
Um, did you have anydisagreements when you were in

(18:28):
terms of where the plot wasgoing or was it all smooth
sailing?

Yeah, we don't really have disagreements.
We.
Plot it out as in as much detailas you can mm-hmm.
Without tifying that creativeprocess.
But if, if someone's like notsure, they will say, we've
always said, park your ego atthe door of this, this project.
You know, um, Gareth's writtensix novels before, uh, he's very

(18:52):
experienced.
He knows a lot more than I do,but that doesn't mean that my
ideas aren't valid either, youknow?
We sit and we plot it all out,and then off we go.

I think, I think both of us just want it to be
the best novel it can be.
So yeah, there, there is no ego.
It's just like, is this ideabetter than the one that we had?
Yes.
Let's go with it.
You know?
And we haven't really had any,um, you know, sticking points.
I, I think the major stickingpoints is like.
Scar might make some uninappropriate comments that I
think are quite funny.
And, and Louise says you can'tput that in the book.

(19:24):
So those, those were probablythe biggest sticking points I
think.
I wish we could

see like a, it's like a blooper reel almost.
Of those.
Yeah.

Well what I two, I think there was one or two that
I said No, we should keep them'cause they are funny.
But yes, quite a few got cutout.
I liked

the, um, the, the sort of veiled reference to
Rebecca Yaros.
I, I'm assuming it was RebeccaAero's on storm.
I have no idea.
Inflamed idea talking

about, oh, that

was in this,

that was in book Dragon Heat.

Is it?
What?
No, I don't, no.
I've got no idea.
No.

Yeah.
Dragon's not
actually side

side note on that, um, what are New Zealand
does reading at the moment?

A lot of romance.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
I think again, that's theescapism thing, isn't it?
So we had, we actually hadmidnight launch party for that
Onyx Storm course, the bookcourse that came out of, um,

and it was great fun.
It was, you know, we had peopledressed up really into it.
It was really, really cool.
Yeah.
So, you know, fair play.

Yeah.
So a lot of the romance, I thinkstill a lot of crime.
I think crime never really goesout of, out of business.
Mm-hmm.
Um, because it's something thatmost people won't do.
You know, everyone's got a lineand 90% of the population won't
cross that line.
So they're just fascinated tosee how criminals tick really.
'cause it's not them.
But yeah.

(20:38):
What else is, uh, are theretrends, are graphic novels for
the kids still?
Mm-hmm.
A lot of them.
And um, yeah, that kind ofthing.
Yeah.

I think it's interesting'cause we opened, um,
when we, we opened a bookshop,um, not my husband and I, but
um, we were opening up abookstore, um, as some of the
staff and we opened just when 50Shades of Gray became massive.
Yeah.
And I remember a lot of perhaps disparaging
comments about 50 Shades ofGray.
I mean, personally, I've neverread it, but, um, what it did is

(21:07):
it opened up.
Markets, um, in readers.
Like they read that and thenthey want more.
And that's not a bad thing, isit?
To have, um, people reading?

No, no, I don't think so.
And I think 50 Shades.
We didn't sell a lot of that.
Interesting.
And I thinking that was really,that was because, um, because
we're an independent bookstore,people were either embarrassed
to come and ask for it in an inindependent bookstore.
'cause they think you're a bitsnooty.
So there's been, I think there'sbeen a little bit of a breaking
down of that, that ba barrier,that independent bookstores are,

(21:39):
um, almost gatekeepers of, youknow, literary stuff.
Mm.
You know, so I'm glad thatthat's, that's not the case.
'cause you know, we wanna sellRebecca Ro and yeah, we do all
of that just as much as anybodydoes.
We wanna have fun with it too.

I think when 50 shares came out, we'd only just
opened the shop.
I believe.
So, I think we we're probably alittle bit behind the eight ball
on it as well.
Yeah, maybe.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I've forgotten what the questionwas, but I thought, oh, it was
just

about New Zealanders and reading, and I,
I, I had this vision that NewZealanders, I don't know why I
always thought I imagined themreading very highbrow New
Zealand literary fiction.

I'll do that too.
Yeah.
So we've got our Ham New Zealandbook awards coming up in May.
Mm-hmm.
And, um, you know, lots of, lotsof eyes of readers will be on,
on that.
So Yeah, there is, you know,because we've got the university
presses that produce really, um,yes.
Yeah.
Quality literature.
Um, and, uh, out of there.

(22:32):
Writing programs as well.

Yeah.

So yeah, there is that.
But, you know,

but it's very broad spectrum, like anywhere really,
you know, it's, you know, wehave our sci-fi fantasy corner,
and we sell, we sell a lot ofsci-fi fancy, just because Kat,
who people might know as Kittyfrom the book, um, you know,
that's her thing.
So she's, she's big into that.
So, you know, it's, it, a lot ofit is hand sales, the stuff we
sell, and then it's, you know,and what

you become known for as a bookstore.
Yeah.
Yeah.
What's

reviewed, you know, if there's a review on the
radio, suddenly everyone wantsthat book, so it's, yeah.
But it's, it's a very broadchurch.

Hmm.
That's wonderful.
I know, yeah.
I wanna talk about bookstoresand community, but, um, so going
back, okay, so you've got yourfirst draft, um, of, so this is
your first book, um, de GirlGone.
What do you do then?
Like, are you editing it?
How do you what?
And obviously Gareth, you've.
Previously published books.
So you've got an in to thepublishing, is that what you do?

(23:24):
You use that?

So we, we, yeah, we edited it.
Um, well the first thing we didwas actually let the staff read
it because we hadn't told themwe were writing a book that they
might be in.
So we, we sent them an email.
Um.
Saying, oh, we're gonna have astaff meeting, but just to have
a lot more staff, not the otherone, which is quite unusual, so
there's nothing to worry about,but just come up to our house
and we'll have a chat aboutstuff.

(23:45):
And they were, they were veryworried.
They set up a WhatsApp group andthen, and then, so when we
brought'em here, said, we mayhave written this book and you
may be in it.
They were so relieved it wasn'tanything worse that they just
won't with it.
So we let them read it and tooktheir feedback and made a couple
of changes on that.
Uh, and then once we were, youknow, we went quite particularly
through the editing, and thenonce we were happy with it, we,

(24:05):
we absolutely cheated and abusedour connections and sent it to
people at the, um, the sort offour big publishers that we knew
and said, can you get this tothe right person?
And they did.
And two of them wanted it, twoof them didn't, which is, you
know, I think it's, you know,it's turned out to be a massive
success, but I think it'sinteresting that, you know, even
then two publishers just said,no.

(24:26):
Um, and that's just what you'reup against.
You know, a lot of it is luck,in all honesty.
A lot, a lot of writing isgetting the right book at the
right place at the right time.
You know, if, if you know thesetwo publishers had just signed a
cozy crime, then they wouldn'thave considered it, so,

exactly.
We don't know what goes oninside those acquisitions.

A been the right place at the right time and, and
then, yeah, there was a veryminor bidding war and we, we
ended up going with Penguin,which we're absolutely delighted
about, so, yeah.

Yeah, they've been amazing.
Let's not call it a minorbidding.
What you just say?
It's a bidding, it's an auction.

No, it was, it was very minor.
Really?
It was, but it was still nicethat there was one, it was nice
that two PE two wanted, twopeople wanted it.
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

And so Louise, as a newcomer to the industry,
like in terms of the, the authorwriting industry, how did you
find the process of, of going topublication?

Um, a lot more intense perhaps than, than I'd
realized.
Um, yeah, having seen it from abook seller's point of view and,
uh, just watching what Garethhad been through, I think every
experience with a differentpublisher is different.
So Walker books, Bateman booksthat he had his fantasy novels
with, and that now with Penguin,I think they've all been

(25:35):
different, but yeah, there's somuch more to it.
And, um, the editing process isso, uh, huge and intense and,
um.
That's another place where youhave to park your ego at the
door, isn't it?
You know, if someone's sayinglike, this whole paragraph,
what's that for?
You know?
And they, they have to be thatdirect because we've all got a
job to do and you go, oh, well,yeah, actually it doesn't serve

(25:56):
any purpose.
So, um, yeah, so I, that's,that's my big learnings really
is how the crafting of a novel
Mm.
That, um, is gonna be the best it can possibly be.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

I think you're also very nervous when it came, the
book came out about what, how itwas gonna review and things like

that.
Yeah.
Well, let's talk about thatthen, because I mean, it has
done so well.
You must be just, you know,blown away, or was it something
you were expecting?
No,

no, I didn't know.
I mean, I suppose the fact thattwo people wanted to publish it
should give you, um, someconfidence and it did, you know,
and we thought, well, this is agreat story, but does it just
crack us up and does it justcrack up that publisher because
she's already in the bookindustry as well?
Is it gonna translate outside ofthat?
But I think it has, I thinkpeople have liked the warmth in

(26:43):
it, the humor and that real,it's in the community.
There's people wandering in andout who you're gonna meet in the
supermarket.
You know, it's very real for alot of people.
So, but yeah, with the, with thereviewing thing, I was very
nervous about that because youare putting something out there
in the world.
You think, well, I think I cando this, but what if everyone
thinks it's rubbish?

(27:04):
You know?
And I think that's, it's alegitimate concern, isn't it?
Mm-hmm.
Because nobody wants to, no,hold up this.
Baby that they've birthed.
And some people say that's ugly.

And it is a very personal process, isn't it?
You have, yeah.
And you know any, Chris, likeeven in the editing you
criticism of your right.
It hurts.
But yeah, it's, it's much worsewhen you get a bad review.
But I, I guess,'cause I've donea few before, it's just like
some people are gonna like itand some people aren't and you
just have more people like itthan don't.
Yeah.
But I.
And we thought it would besuccessful, but as booksellers,
we know that they're, you know,every so often there's, there's

(27:34):
a book that everyone says thisis gonna be the next big thing,
and it does absolutely nothing.
That's right.
So there's always that as well.
Uh, but I think it took everyoneby surprise.
I mean, we've, we, you know, we,in our own hearts, we were
convinced that it was a reallygreat book and it was very
funny.
But like you said, you dunno ifthat's gonna translate.
And so, uh, I think it took, youknow, it, it is taken everyone
by surprise.
Absolutely.
How well it's gone and how it'staken off.

(27:56):
And we're delighted that it has,we've had so many lovely emails
from people who we've never met.
Said, I loved your book.
I love book two and, you know,just really nice things.
So it, so it's, it is been alovely, lovely process.

But for the purpose of your podcast and for, for
your audience, I think, um.
It depends on how much you wantto get into the reviews.
Like, I don't wanna read the badones.
Mm-hmm.
I,
I don't see the purpose'cause there are people
who just won't get it and they,they are out there and so I
won't go on good reads.
I think that's just is gonnascrew your head unless you

(28:29):
filter into the five and fourstar reviews, in which case it's
lovely.
Um.
And the publisher actually said,now how do you want, do you want
all of them?
Do you want just the good ones?
And so Gareth will have all ofthem and I'll say, just the good
ones.

Oh,

I

think that's great.

I think it's harder when it's like a, maybe a
magazine review or somethinglike that, where quite clearly
the persons who, who's reviewedit, doesn't like your genre of
book anyway, so they're nevergonna give you a good read.
Why did you do that?
That then?
Yeah.
Why didn't you choose a fantasybook if you don't read Fan?
Yes.
You know, you know, if you onlyread literary fiction, you're
not gonna really get a greatdeal out of it.
So, you know, sometimes thathappens.
You just have to suck it up andmove on.

(29:06):
Really?
Yeah.

Sometimes in those sort of official reviews
as well, I say official, um,because they're, you know, ones
that have more credence Isuppose, people pay attention
to.
It's actually quite interesting'cause they, they will pull
apart certain things and theyactually do make you see.
Insights that perhaps you didn'treally know and you go, oh,
actually, that they might have apoint.
So this is what some authorshave told me.

(29:28):
They actually don't mind a cri acritique, uh, on their books
when they're in these types ofreviews because it's, it's
quite, actually, actually a bitof a privilege to be critiqued
as well, um, in this kind ofindustry.

It is, it is.
If you.
If you value that person'sexperience.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
You know, not what someone justsaying it's rubbish for the sake
of saying it's rubbish.

That's right.
I've got an AI to write it forthem.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, contrary for the sake ofbeing contrary, you know, just
because, yeah.
But yeah, you, you know, it'sall part of the process.
It's like, you know, rejectionletters are all part of the
process.
You, you know, I mean, everyrejection hurts, but you just
have to, you know.
Be miserable for a couple ofdays, then get over it and move
on.

Have you had many rejections, Gareth?

Yes.

We love a rejection story on the book
deal, so please tell us.

Oh, well, um, I think just like when I was
started out, you know, becauseas I said in the UK you've gotta
go to agencies, so you know,you, you'd send your manuscript
of many, many agencies and itwill get rejected.
And I had.
Oh, this would've been about 35years ago.
I, I had to, I'd written asci-fi novel, which to be honest
now looking back wasn't thatgood.

(30:37):
But there was one agent who wasconsidering it and they gave it
to one of their auth sci-fiauthors who read it and just
said no.
So that, that

awful When it comes through another author as
well.
Yeah,

yeah.
So, um, you know, but you justhave to, you know, I've always
been of the opinion that.
When, when you write somethinggood enough, it will find its
way.
So I, I always like, I belong tolots of writers groups and I, I
always think there's two sortsof people.
There's the, the sort of personwho just wants to hear how good
their writing is, and there'sthe sort of person who wants to
hear.
And there's a sort of person whowants to hear, what could I do

(31:11):
to get better?
And I was, I've always beenthat.
So I, I've always, although I,you know, it's, it's a pain when
you do get rejections, it's,it's just like, well, maybe I
need to do some more work.
Mm-hmm.
But like, you know, with thisone, we got two rejections.
We got two acceptances, and, youknow, it's turned out to be an
absolute, you know, belter.
So you, you, you've just gottasuck it up really and move on.

That's right.
That's a good top tip.
Um, it, it's, but

you know, you've gotta also think, well, why, why
didn't they like it?
Mm-hmm.
Is this something I need toconsider?
If they give you, you know,quite often you don't get any
feedback, but, um, yeah, and theother thing I would say as well
is if you get someone ABabsolutely loves it and giving
you an absolute glowing shoutout.
If it's not one of the bigpublishers, be a bit skeptical.
Mm-hmm.
You know,
I, when I was in the uk, I, I'd sent this

(31:58):
manuscript out to, I dunno, lotsof agents and not heard anything
back.
And then there was a publisher Isent it to and I got this
massive glow review that said,how would they love the
characters?
They love this, they love that.
And immediately I was thinking,oh, I'm a bit suspicious because
everyone else thought it wasn'tthat good and it was turned out
to be a vanity publisher who wasjust trying to suck you in to
get the money.
So I think, I think, you know,always do your research as well

(32:18):
with your publisher.

That's really good tip.
And I think, um, for those inAustralia, we have the
Australian Society of Authors,so if you're not sure about a
publisher who's making arequest, yeah, you can always
seek legal advice through them,through the a SA legal, um, just
to, to get a sense of what, whatthey're about.
'cause yes, I know that thereare.
Quite a lot of vanity publishersout there.

(32:41):
I think we've got some greatsmall to mid-size presses
Absolutely.
In independence in Australia,although, you know, that's been
changing.
But we do have some really goodones who are very reputable.
Um, and definitely not vanity.
Absolutely.
Yeah.

Yeah.
So, but um, and we've had likepeople come into the bookshop
and they, you know, with, withtheir, the books that they have
got done via, and I won't namethem, don't want of us sued, but
by, you know, maybe some UKcompanies.
Uh, and they said, well, yes,it's been produced by a, you
know, a proper publisher.
But, you know, we know thatthat's a, that's a terrible
vanity publisher.

(33:13):
And, you know, isn't that

heartbreaking?
As must it, it's for us

because they, they have spent thousands and
thousands and thousands on it.
Um, and, and you know, we justknow from the name that it's,
um, there's a website isn'tthere, of um, uh, I can't
remember what it's called.
Publisher Beware.
I think it's called Somethinglike that, that lists.
You know, validity publishersand that's always worth checking
out as well.

I actually got a, recently, a colleague who's
outside the industry asked me,oh, how much of your own money
are you investing into thepublication of your novel?
And I said, just my time.
You know, you're not puttingyour own money into it.
And I think any publisher thatasks you to do that.
Yeah,

absolutely.
Be aware of what you're gettinginto.
Yeah.
And the outlay, and if you'reget it back and what your
expectations are, you have to,

there's a couple Zealand publishers who will.
Um, who you sort of, you hybrid.
Yeah, you do give them money,but they're also genuinely good
publishers.
So I, but as you say, anybodywho's asked you for money
immediately, the flag should goup and then you should do a bit
more research.
Probably, yes.

And maybe if you're just wanting to see it in
print and to give a copy yourcopies to your family, if that's
your expectation, then that'sfine.
That's different, isn't it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, so, um.
Moving on.
So when you released book two,was it different at the really,
'cause we've got a lot of group,uh, debut authors in Australia.
We've got a bit of a group atthe moment.
Everyone's now thinking aboutbook two and I think publishers

(34:37):
want you to start thinking aboutbook two even before book one's
even out.
Have you found that processdifferent publishing book two.

I suppose the momentum was already there.

Mm.

In New Zealand, it, uh, our book never dropped out
of the top 10 New Zealandfiction.

That is amazing.
Congratulations.
That's just wonderful.

Yeah, that's so, it's cool.
I mean, it came out last Julyand it's still there and now
it's in the two formats.
It's in the trade and the Bformat just came out as well.
So

we've actually, and given the churn
the amount of.
Books that are being releasedeach year, that is really
significant.
Clearly New Zealanders, theyobviously love to have a book
set in New Zealand too.

Yeah, I think early reviews for this one as well.
I just was just so relievedbecause, um.

It's like the diff difficult second album, isn't
it?
Yeah.
You're never quite, particularlyif the first one's done so well,
you're thinking, you know, if,if the first one's been all
right, then the second one onlyhas to be all right.
But if the first one's donereally well, you've sort of set
the bar for yourself, haven'tyou, really?
So, yeah.
Yeah.
So the reviews that came up werevery good.
So that was, that was a really,well, the

first couple of reviews were just like, even
better than the first one, andI'm like, oh.
Yeah.
That's amazing.
So yeah, so I, that enabled meto just relax and not have that,
you know, the spiral.

Yes.

Yeah.

And I think, I think as well, it, it, we
basically, the publication dategot, because it had done so
well, they brought thepublication date forward by
about three or four months.
So we had less time.
So it was like a real crunch forus to get it done.
Mm-hmm.
And, and so then you are, youhaven't had as much time as
you'd quite like to, to, toperhaps double check yourself,
so, so.

And you know what it's like carving out time to
write, you know, we've got twobookshops, we've got brilliant
staff, so we're not on the shopfloor very much anymore.
But you've still got all theadmin and all the, the business
side of things to do as well as,I don't know, Gary's got about
17 projects on the go generally,including being a

magician I read too.
Exactly.
Yeah.
So how do you, how do you coverout the tone?
I was just, I was just sittinghere thinking about how are you
running two businesses, writingbooks, putting out bestsellers,
publicity.
Being a magician on the side

kind of seven days.
Yeah.
We, we did, we did realizeearlier this year that we hadn't
had proper time off from theshop, you know, where you don't
touch any of it for about fiveyears or something, you know,
not one single day when we'venot done something bookshop or
writing related.
So we did take, was it a wholeday?
I think we managed maybe likefive days.

(37:07):
Yeah.
And I kept this laptop shot.
I didn't even look at it, didn'tdo anything, and it was
wonderful.
Um, but you've gotta be reallystrict with yourself to make
sure that you are apportioningyour time and not wasting it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think just because you know, it, it's quite
rare that a book takes off.
You know, I've.
What, six before they've doneall right, but they haven't
like, done anywhere near as wellas this.
And so we just, you just have tomake the most of it and just
like, all right, I'm not gonnasleep for three months.
We do sleep.

Well, not so much, but I was waving about the bits
of paper.
Wasn't I Madeleine, before wewent on, before we hit record.
But you know, this is how I, Ilive.
So Louise

is, um, holding up.
Whole bunch of handwritten,

my, my handwritten things of what the hell is going
on.
And we've got a really big one.
We've got a year wall planner inthe loo because you can't miss
it, you know, and you get up inthe morning and go, oh, yes.
Um, but then you can also seewhere the gaps are.
Oh, I like that.
That's a good

tip.
Put out your planner in the loo.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Isn't it, because you know, yougo in there a few times a day.
That's right.
That's right.
Yeah.
Um, and yeah, and when you findthose gaps, then you go, okay.
Is that a rest time or is that,well, actually I could sit and
write for an afternoon there, sothat's, so when's

your next rest time?
Because I know you've been sobusy.

Easy.
There isn't one, you know, wesort of grab things where we
can, um.
Just this last weekend we weredown in Wellington.
Gareth was selling the books atArmageddon, which is like one of
the comic cons.
Do you have the
Armageddon
in Australia?
Yep.
And um, so he was doing that.

(38:42):
I was support crew, so I wasdropping him off, picking him
up.
Uh, but our daughter lives downthere, so we made sure that we
spent time with her in theevenings and we played a nerdy
game, you know.
And
then we're off to a festival.
But we're gonna go for twonights before we're actually on,
before our gig is on the Sunday,and they're putting us up in a
nice sort of country, countryhome.

(39:02):
Oh, lovely.
So we will have a nice timegoing and watching everybody
else's.
So it depends how you relax, Isuppose, doesn't it?

Mm-hmm.
That's true.
Active relaxers, I think relaxesprobably just'cause we're always
doing something, but then youjust have to fit your right in
when, when you can basically,uh, you know, um, with us,'cause
it's chapter about you do getsmall break.
You know, I've got to do mychapter.
That's on me at the moment.
Yeah.
But Louise doesn't have to doanything until I've done my
chapter.
So you, you get a little breakfrom the writing, I suppose.

(39:30):
Yeah.
So

our bathroom got clean today because it's not my
turn to do the chapter.

Oh, I love that.
So you're writing book three atthe moment then?
Yeah.
Can you tell us anything about,
um,

it will possibly resolve one of the big threads?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

So it'll probably resolve the Pinter thread to a,
to a great extent.
Um, uh, we, we were lucky, so wegot, we got a two book deal deal
with the first book.
So we got, we knew we were gonnado books one, book two, and then
just before Christmas Penguin,our editor, publishers, sorry,
he contacted us and said, do, doyou wanna do two more books?
And we said, yes.
Um, and so they've said, youknow, one can be a bookshop,

(40:09):
detectives, and the other onecould be whatever you want.
Another bookshop, detectives, orsomething else.
So we're in a really enviableposition really, that.
Leave.
This is a trilogy, or writeanother one, or start a
different series and come backto this one.
It's, it's up to us.
So we're Mm.
So that's really cool.
It's a dream.

It's like a writer's dream, isn't it?

It's a writer's dream actually.
Yeah.
And we

know, we do know, like we were away this weekend
weren't, we are going like, howgood is our life?
Yeah.
You
know, so we are, we are very aware of how, of how
privileged we are in the, butyou've

worked hard for it and you continue to work
hard as well, so you're puttingin the work.
Yeah,
there's that as well.
Yeah.
cause in the end, you know, lots of people
have dreams of writing a book.
And Louise, you were sayingbefore that you've always
thought about writing a book,but you have to actually sit
down at the desk and and do thework.
Do it,

do,
yeah.
I've always believed.
I dunno how true this is'causeyou never get the feedback, but
we, I've always hit deadlines,you know, if we've, if we've had
a deadline for something, I'vealways really hit it and we
have.
So I think that's one thing.
And I think as well, we'vealways been very receptive to.
Publishers and editor'srequests.
So I, I think I've always triedto be that author that's easy to

(41:15):
work with.

Yeah.
You

know, and I think that makes being a nice

person, not, not being a, a dick.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's quite important.
I, I mean, I probably am, but I,I keep that all inside when I'm
talking to the publishers.
He gets

me to check his emails before he sends them.
Well, I think,

I think I'm a little bit on the spectrum, so I
tend to just be quite focused,like, blah, this is happening,
this is happening.
Whereas, okay.
Sorry, the kids are, well,

I think it's important to
be,
you know, collaborative and communicative
and hitting deadline.
So if you are a writer though,who you know, doesn't have a
contract, I, I'm, I'm on, Isomeone too who's really
motivated by a deadline.
And I, I think imposingdeadlines on yourself, even if
you don't have a publisherwaiting upon it, I think it's
still important as well, isn'tit?
Yeah.

Yeah.
I think when I've been writinglike book spec, you know,
without knowing that it's gonnabe published, I've always tried
to say 500 words a day.
Just, just do 500 and then inthree months or whatever the
book is done or the first draftis done and, and that's the way
I, I work.
Then with these ones it's a bitdifferent'cause we have got
deadlines.
So you, you, you sort of workslightly differently.
But yeah, for, for me that was,you know, 500 words was a, an

(42:25):
amount that I could do.
Not easily, but, you know, ifyou, if you have a couple of.
Half hours across the day orsomething, you can get it done.
And, and that's just the way youjust then keep moving forward.
Yeah.

Is that what you do

too, Louise?
Yeah.
Um, I tend to just sort of, scaris

shaking his head with all, no,

well he hates this 'cause I write really quickly
and it really annoys him.
So I will sort of think, andI'll visualize and then I will
write it and I can hear it and Ican see it.
So it's actually flowing quitewell and I don't tend to get
stuck, but it, it really pisseshim off because he would've
spent, you know, several daysand he's, he's, he's thought
about it and he is chucked hisheart and soul at this chapter.

(43:08):
And he emailed it to me and I goright.
Bit catcher.
Yeah.
And he, it

really annoys him.
So it doesn't annoy me.
I just find it hard becauselike, I, I find writing really
hard.
So I will, you know, it willtake me maybe two days or three
days to get my chapter done.
And I emailed, you know, thishappened the other week.
I, I emailed it like Wednesdaylunchtime, Wednesday evening,
she sent hers back to me.
I've got start.
I haven't even had a break.

And it's not crap either.
Can I just put that out there?
You know, what I write is of afairly decent quality.

But how did you, how did, I know we've
skipped over this a little bit,Louise, but you know, how, where
did you get your practice from?
How did you learn to write?
Did you do, was it something atuni that you got or was it
something that you'd

Yeah, I mean, even as a little kid, uh, and writing
essays at school, I just, Iloved it and I loved, um,
English literature.
I did an English literature, Alevel, which, I dunno what you
call that these days inAustralia, um, you know.
When you, you know, what the,the qualifications you do when
you're 18.

Yeah, yeah.
Uh, we call that all sorts ofthings.
It depends on which state youare.
Yes, exactly.

But yes, so, and I, I loved it.
And then I went on to study, um,it was humanities degree, but it
was an English literature major,and I absolutely loved it.
Just delving into these thingsand, and having ideas and
articulating those ID ideas.
And then when running thebookshop, you know, I've, I've
written lots of articles for,um.
The local newspapers and thelocal magazines, and then a

(44:32):
couple of the nationals and thengot to review on RNZ.
So you, you're constantlythinking how you can put your,
your massive jumbled impressionsof something into, into, um,
telegraphic sentences almost,you know, where, where it's
gonna make sense to somebodyelse.
So I've always really enjoyedthat process and, um, I'm

(44:52):
thoroughly loving.
Putting that into fiction.

I think also you've always been an absolutely
massive reader.
Oh yeah, yeah.
That, that was, you know, evenbefore we had the bookshop,
your, your free time was readingthat's what you wanted to do.
Yeah.
So I think, you know, if you've,you've read a lot, you do pick
up a lot subconsciously aboutstructure of books and story in
how it's works and sentenceconstruction and language.
Yeah.
The language.
So I think that's been a massivebonus for you.

(45:17):
Yeah.
And, and, and I guess with your,your study, you've also, you
know, you think deeply about.
The subtext and the subplots andwhat this, they're saying one
thing, but they mean somethingelse.
So I think that just comesnaturally for you.

Mm-hmm.
Reading, isn't it?
It's a simple thing, isn't it?
It's an enjoyable one, but yes,it's um, been the top tip of a
few authors that have come onthe podcast recently and I think
it's an important one.
Speaking of reading and your, sorunning your bookshop.
So, um, authors, uh, a lot ofthe day authors in particular,

(45:49):
they've got.
Questions from about how toapproach booksellers?
Is it annoying when authors comeup and say, oh, I've written a
book.
Um, can I sign it?
Or is it something that youenjoy?

I think that's marvelous if they know it's in
the shop.
If they've either looked it uponline before so they're
confident, you know, coming inbecause they know you stock it.
Um, please identify yourself tothe bookseller.
You know, I mean, you'll get,you'll get varying degrees of
response, but, um, you mightwanna let them know you're
coming or I see you've got mybook in stock.
Shall I pop in and, and signsome?

(46:23):
Because, you know, for a bookseller, it's a great
opportunity.
We can take photos, we can stickit on the socials, um, and have
a little celebration that thatauthor's been in.
I.
It's quite funny'cause a lot ofreaders still have a disconnect
between the book that they loveand the fact that a person
actually wrote it and it cameout.
So, um, it, when they'veactually signed it, I think

(46:44):
that's quite a special thing.
So yeah, I would say yeah,definitely identify yourself.

Yeah.
I, I think it's different fordifferent bookshops and you
will, you know, maybe chains aredifferent to indies, perhaps,
but I think most people would, Imean, we, we've done this with
the hub book.
We've like wandered intobookshops and had a look and
seen that they've got it andthen we've gone up, you know?
Um, so you, it is, it is nicestto check first because that
saves a lot of embarrassment.
Um,

but because we are booksellers, I think then we'll,
we'll.
We'll pick the book up and we'llgo and we'll say, this is us.
You know?
I know you're really busy.
Do you want us to sign it?
It's totally fine if you don't,you know?
Yeah.
So then they've got a, they'vegot a get out, get out clause
because it Good idea put on thespot.
Yeah.
You know, and it can be awkward,especially if it's like on a
Saturday and

lunchtime and busy and Yeah.

Yeah.
And they're busy or that booksellers like part-time and they
don't know what the protocol is.

Yeah, yeah.
Or might be that they come, youknow, sometimes it's only the
owner who makes that decision.
So it depends on who they are.
So Yeah.
But if you're just polite.
And you know, that's all you canask and, and, um, also.
From a books seller's point ofview, sometimes a lot of our
books are what they call sellerreturns.
So if they don't sell, we sendthem back.
If they're signed, sometimes youcan't send them back.

(47:52):
So it might be that they wantyou to sign some of them, but
not all of them.
So just be respectful of that aswell, you know, you know, do you
want me to sign some, how manydo you want me to sign, sort of
thing, and give them that aswell.
And, and so, yeah, and

give the bookshop a, a shout out on your socials
too, you know?
Yeah.
That's a good idea.

But, but certainly we don't mind people coming in
and saying, look, you've got mybook here.
Can I sign it?
Great.
And, and you know, we know thatpeople don't know what authors
look like, so, you know, you,you don't expect to be
recognized.
So it's, it's, you know, it'snice when the author does come
up and say, this is me, this isme.
Do you want me to sign them?
Sort of thing, you know?
Yeah.
Yeah.

That's good advice.
Do you have any other tips forauthors in, in booksellers, um,
how to be a good author?

Yeah.
I mean, it is very much a, asymbiotic relationship, you
know?
Mm-hmm.
You don't write them, we can'tstop them.
Um, and also you need us to, toget that wider audience.
So, um, yeah, get in touch.
Just say, you know, if you knowthat that book is in stock at
that bookshop, click'em anemail.
Some authors must write abillion postcards.
We've had postcards saying,thank you for stock stocking my

(48:54):
book.
And as a, as a bookseller, youjust go, oh, and you've created
that relationship with somebody,a real personal relationship.

Oh, I love that.
That's a, I haven't heard thatone before.
I think that's really beautifulhand.

Be a dick, you know, uh, you know, at the end
of the day, book selling,there's a real, you know,
writing's a really hard job andgetting your book published is
really impressive, but also bookselling's really hard.
So, you know, if the persondoesn't have your book, don't be
funny about it.
Um, don't necessarily be theperson who then takes all of
their book and moves it to adifferent space in the book
shop.
So.

(49:31):
Um, yeah.
Or don't know where it's goingfor a start.
Yeah.
You know?
Um, so yeah, just, just berespectful because they're part,
you know, they are part of thebusiness, but you don't want to
be rude to the person who'sselling your book.
Yes.
And it does happen, you know,and if they haven't got your
book, just suck it up, you know.

Or talk to your publisher and the publisher's
rep and say, you know, I thinkit do well in this bookshop.
Yeah.
Have you, have you tried or, youknow?
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.
And I think it's interestingbecause, um, a lot of authors
don't realize that not everybookshop is gonna stock their
book.
There's, and there's newreleases coming out each month,
every Tuesday there, the newones hit.
Like, it's, it's a constantthing.
So you really get that smallwindow, don't you, to really
make a up.

You get about three months on the shelves, or, well,
it probably, it would startlonger, but you, you get three
months of promotion from yourpublisher or something like
that, and then it's, yeah, so I,I think you can, you can help by
just.
Friendly with the booksellersbeing nice because then they're
more likely, you know, if you'regonna do an event, promote that
event, you know, do everythingyou can to help promote it.

It's a bit of work.
Yeah.
And you've gotta, you know,don't expect everyone else to do
it for you.
Some, some authors, you know,when they're pretty big, they
don't have to do anything.
But, you know, we've done a lotof putting ourselves out there
mm-hmm.
For our novels and, um.

Also, we like visiting book shops.
We've enjoyed it though.
Yeah.
They're not complaining fun.
Easy for us, but

don't expect it to just happen.

Yeah.
You've gotta be part of theproject.
Yeah.
I think, I think these days youhave to put the effort in as
well.
Yes.
Yeah.
And also, yeah, just, just suckit up.
If it doesn't go well, we've,we've.
Had events that haven't gone sowell that it's just, you know,
um, you know, for us as theauthors, but also for us as
booksellers.
And you can, you can doeverything you want.
You, you can to try and get anaudience and people may not just
turn up.

(51:17):
And if that happens, thathappens.
You just have to live with it,you know?

Yeah.
And it's a good story to tell ona podcast in future and a
festival as well.
Yeah, exactly.
Big

authors have all got that story where nobody
turned up for their event, soYeah.
Yeah.

Resilience building, it's important.
As an author, I think.

Yeah.

So to finish, we always ask our guests to
leave the listeners with one,um, top tip.
Um, and you've already given ussome great top tips so you can
repeat one that you've alreadygiven.
I'm guessing Gareth is, don't bea dick.
But, um, I'm, I'll hand it overto both of you.

My mine's always create relationships, you know,
just be who you are, be genuine,and, um, reach out on a human
being level, not on a sort of.
I'm emailing a corporatebookshop, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Just actually just try andcreate genuine human
relationships, because that'sgonna work well for everybody.

I, I think, um, when I do writing talks, I
always start with this Venndiagram.
So it's got three circles andone is craft.
So, you know, you, you have tohave the craft of your writing.
'cause no one's, you aregenerally not gonna publish
something that's not very good.
You have to have persistence.
Because you are gonna getrejections and then you have to
have luck, and there's thatlittle sweet spot where they all
intersect and you can changesome of those.

(52:33):
You can't change, you can'treally do anything about luck,
but you can make your craftbetter and you can be persistent
to, to increase your chances, ummm-hmm.
Uh, but you still rely on thatelement of luck and that that's
all there is to it.
Yeah.

Maybe you can reduce that element of luck by
doing your research in terms of,well, who, who is gonna be the
best place to, to pick up thiswork?
What have they been publishingin the past?
Um, is this hitting the marketthat they want as well?
So doing your research reallyhelps, I think with that too.

Yeah, AB absolutely.
I mean, I think, um, I guess.
Writing to market is a thing we,I mean, we, I guess we did with
this, but it wasn't necessarilya hugely conscious decision.
I think you've gotta write whatyou enjoy writing, really.
Of course, for me, writing hasalways been about writing what I
want to write and anything elseis a bonus, so, yeah.
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.
No, I agree.
Write what you wanna write.
That's a lovely way to finishoff.
Um, so, um, you have to plugyour bookshop as well, but when
you go into bookstores,everybody, make sure you pick up
a copy of Garris and Louisa'slatest book in the bookshop,
detective series, tea and Cakeand Death, which is a great
title.
Um, so thank you so much forjoining me.

(53:42):
And do you wanna tell us for ourNew Zealand listeners, I think
we have a few where yourbookshop is.

Yeah, so we are on, uh, the North Island.
We are in Hawkes Bay, which ison the East coast, and we've got
bookshops in Havelock North andone in Napier.

Amazing.
Thank you both so much forjoining us on the Book Deal
podcast.

Thanks for having us.
It's been a pleasure.
Thank you for listening to thebook Deal podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our.
To keep up to date with what thePO is doing.
You can also find us onInstagram.

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