Holly Cardamone on pre-launch strategies, communications and why publishing is a marathon, not a sprint

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 5 (00:09):
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover
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We interview seasoned and debut authors, as well as
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best tips and advice on

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So no matter what's.
Stage of writing your at.
We've got you covered.
I'm Tina Strawn.
I'm Madeline Cleary.
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one deal at a time.
The book Deal podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners, the land and waters,which it's recorded on and pays
respect to their elders past,present, and emerging.

Speaker (00:56):
It's Madeline here.
Before we jump into this episodewith our delightful guest, Holly
Cardamone, I wanted to let youknow I'll be hosting a spoiler
book Club Zoom session with ourwriting industry, queen and
friend of the podcast KateMildenhall.
So on the 10th of December,we're gonna be diving into all
the spoilers about Kate's newnovel, the Hiding Place.

(01:16):
And you can ask Kate any burningquestion you like.
You can sign up to this liveZoom event in the link in our
show notes.
Now onto our episode, HollyCardamone is an award-winning
Australian author.
Her debut novel summer inbetween won the 2024 Hawkeye
Publishing.
Manuscript Development Prize waspublished in September this

(01:36):
year.
We chat about what happens whenyou leave your handwritten
manuscript on a train in Italy,writing buddies and
accountability winning awards,but also experiencing rejections
and shame.
It will leave you ready for along and hot summer.

Madeleine Cleary (01:52):
Holly Cardamone, welcome to the Book
Deal podcast.

Holly Cardamone (01:55):
Thank you so much for having me.
What a thrill.

Can you tell us a little bit about your debut
novel, Summer, In Between

Holly Cardamone (2) (02:01):
Oh, I, I would absolutely love to, this
is my favorite question, one ofthe things I always say is
imagine if Looking for Alibrandiand puberty, blues had a book
baby, and that's my novel andthey're the vibes that I was
going for in creating it.
If I can, um, be so as bold asto compare myself to those
novels, my goodness, what a headI have on me.

(02:21):
But, um, basically it's a youngadult novel.
It's a story of Cat who was 17years old.
She lives in a tiny little beachtown, 90 minutes or so from the
city, and she's facing a long,boring summer without all of her
friends.
But she has a plan and that's toget stuck into her books.
Two reasons.
Number one, it'll give her a bitof distance from her

(02:43):
overbearing, interfering, um,Nonna and her boisterous
brothers and her parents who aremortifyingly affectionate to the
point of get a room.
But it also.
Um, alleviate the pressure thatshe's put on herself about her
year 12 results.
She honestly believes thatthey'll make or break her
future, and she believes that ifshe gets a good year 12 result,

(03:05):
that will be her ticket out oftown.
And the other thing she wants todo for the summer is avoid the
pack of local surfers who shecalls the Neanderthals in this
little, um, hot bed of a townfilled with, um, misogyny and
casual and overt racism.
So that's her plan.
What her plan doesn't includethough, is the king of the
Neanderthals, the hottest of thehot, uh, Paul Light wood coming

(03:26):
to work for her dad at her housefor the entire summer.
So summer becomes really, reallyinteresting as these two
characters who seemingly havevery little in common, uh, start
going to night parties, theystart jumping off cliffs into
the ocean.
They have gelato, they have nonas spectacular lasagna, and it's
a summer that changeseverything.

Oh, Holly, what a summary.
That's amazing.
Um, you pack a lot in becauseit's, it's 250 pages, which is
pretty common for a wire novel,but you really touch on so many
amazing issues.
I flew through this book.
It was amazing.
Um, my family, um, spent a lotof, we spent a lot of time on
the Mornington Peninsula, so myparents, um, had a house down

(04:06):
there, and so it really broughtme back.
So there's so much nostalgia, Ithink in Nost.
And I'm guessing that's what youintended.

Look, it's, we all have these, um, I think
it's a particularly Australianthing.
We have these memories of ourteenage summers on a beach town
or, um, or somewhere away from,you know, the day to day.
And what I wanted to have inthis, in somewhere in between is
that sense of nostalgia aboutgoing back to that space where

(04:33):
we had so many of our formativeyears and adolescence is this
period of tumultuousness.
So put in a, in a differentenvironment of summer, of the
beach, of all these peoplehaving fun.
And if you are not having fun,what's that like to be on the
outside of witnessing that?
And the other thing I wanted toinclude in this setting is that
beach towns, um, are amazingspaces to go and have holidays,

(04:54):
but for the locals they can bequite different.
And I wanted to include some ofthose tensions there.

Mm, no, it was, it was brilliant.
And, um, even though it's a yit's a ya novel, so many adults
would just love falling backinto that world.
And I think it's perfectly timedthis episode at the start of
summer as well.
I wanna talk about maybe Hollyback when she was a young adult,
um, uh, and in your summer inbetween Holly, when you were on

(05:21):
that verge from teenage toadulthood, did you dream of
aspiring to be a writer at thattime?

I absolutely did, and I also was
the teen sitting on the beachwith a monster textbook.
Uh.
Studying Feverously.
I knew that was my ticket out.
Like that was actuallyabsolutely my ticket out.
Um, that's probably where thesimilarities ended.
Um, did I have a walking greenflag?
Gorgeous.
King of the Neanderthals,hottest of the hot surfer dude?

(05:50):
Uh, no I didn't.
So that bit, um, completely andutterly fictional.
Um, unfortunately.
Sadly.
But yes, it was, you know, thatwas my adolescence being in a
small town, um, feeling the tugsof wanting to get out, but also
this amazing family that I haveas well, like knowing that when
I do leave, um, I'll be leaving.

(06:13):
So much love behind.
And the dramatics areridiculous.
It's literally 90 minutes up theroad.
Like, it's not like changingcountries or anything like that,
but there's that real tension,um, in adolescence of, you know,
the pulling away and holding onand all that sort of stuff.
And, you know, we all feel that.
And you know, what a, what aprivilege it is to recreate that
on the page for other people to,you know, to read that and

(06:35):
experience that and, and re andremember it.

Mm.
So what did you wanna do thenwhen you were in that?
So you, obviously, you've saidthat you left that beautiful
beach side town, and it soundslike an absolutely idyllic
childhood that you had, and, andI think that, like you said, Kat
has had a similar experience upuntil that point.
But what did you wanna be?
So do, have you always wanted tobe a writer,

I absolutely did.
And it's funny, like evenhearing you say that, it's like,
oh, poor me.
I grew up on a, a farm on thebeach.
I went to sleep here in Ocean.
You know, you know, or how awfulfor me, um, I always did want to
be a writer, and my plan wasalways go and do the arts
degree, um, be a writer.
That was it, that was my plan.
And I was, I was towards the endof year 12, you know, you meet

(07:20):
with your careers teacher andshe was also my English lit
teacher who knew what I wantedto do.
And she said to me that I, um,you know, was obviously highly
creative and also very organizedand structured, which was
apparently quite unusual to havethose two, um, strengths lined
up next to each other.
Her perspective was, rather thando an arts degree, why didn't I

(07:42):
go and do a health, um, Healthprogram.
Um, and that would give me lifeexperience.
Her view was that I was aprivate school girl who lived
this very sheltered life in abeautiful part of the world, not
a lot of life experience thereto be writing up stories.
And to this day, I don't know ifit was good advice or bad
advice.
It was good advice in that itdid give me a career path.

(08:03):
So I did a nursing degree, uh,that was incredible.
It took me, um, so many placesit took me into, uh, public
policy, which was incredible.
And that's how I started makingthe, um, jump back over to
writing.
And, um, but in many ways therewas a decade where I didn't
write and it felt like there wassomething missing in my life.
So yes, always wanted to be awriter.

(08:23):
I've always been a massivereader.
And it's funny because I saythat I didn't write for 10
years, but I wrote nursing carenotes that I was, um, spoken to
a couple of times because theseare legal documents and you
probably shouldn't put things inthere like dirty old man.
Yeah, it's probably,

Speaker 11 (08:40):
trouble.

and you know, and I'm thinking about,
you know, I had a doctor say tome, your descriptions of wounds
are so visceral, I can almosttaste them.
And it was like, what?
That's not, probably not what Iwas going for, but you know, I
will take that as a compliment.
So yeah, it's something that Ialways loved.

Isn't it interesting though, how when
we're young, and this is, Isuppose, why we are so drawn to
reading young adult fiction isthat these, everything seems
very pivotal and when we getadvice from people, we really do
take it to heart and it canreally impact our entire well
for you the next decade.
And so it's really, it is thethings that we say to our, you

(09:17):
know, young adults, it's, it canbe really critical, and I don't
think yours is an unfamiliarstory as well.
A lot of people have this dreamand then either a parent or a
teacher or an adult says, oh,why don't you try doing
something else first and getyourself a stable career and
then you can go and do what youwant.

Yeah, I think it's some, in some way it,
it's very limiting.
And look, things are verydifferent now and I acknowledge
that.
And, you know, the options andopportunities that my daughters
have are just mind blowing.
And the pathways as well,they're incredible.
And you know, and I say to mygirls, you know, you don't have
to decide what you wanna beforever, just decide what you
wanna do first.
And you know, and I think thatmessage that, you know, like

(09:55):
have a plan B is it's, it, ofcourse it makes sense.
Of course it does.
But like the opportunity todream and follow a passion, like
life's really, really long, likewhat would've been the harm in
me doing an arts degree and thenfinding my way into something
like it just, yeah, like thatwhole pressure to have, um,
look, it's coming from a pointof privilege and I acknowledge

(10:17):
that, but that pressure to havegainful employment, I think
that's.
That's quite, um, when it'smisaligned to we who you are as
a person, that's reallydifficult.
I dragged myself through adegree that I had no, um, no
affinity to, no passion for.
But what I did love was thestories.
So I did love sitting onpeople's beds, braiding their
hair.
Um, they were in the worstmoments of their life and I was

(10:37):
chatting to them about, youknow, what they were up to, what
led them to that point.
And that was, that was the, um,elements of the job that I
really, really liked.
That, that sense of connectionand I suppose making a
difference.
And, you know, those bits Iloved,

Mm.
I feel like you could write, um,a memoir about that time, like
people's stories.
Like, I mean, it's hard, isn'tit, when you're a healthcare
professional, but, uh, it soundslike storytelling has followed
you.
And then I read as well that younow have, you've got two
master's degrees,

Speaker 2 (11:04):
I do,

of Communications, and a master of
literature.
So obviously you've gone back tothe arts.
How did you get back into it?

Um, it?
was funny, I was addicted tostudy for a while there.
I did communications because I,that had that, you know, that
that ingrained belief that if Iwas gonna go back to uni it had
to be something productive.
Like I had to make money out ofit.
I had to have something that wasquite, um, you know, grounded in
employment and an employability.
And so I did that and I still,so I did the communications and

(11:33):
it was amazing and I loved it.
But then I wasn't the heartstuff.
So it was funny'cause I wasworking, um, in government and,
uh, went back and did writingliterature and, you know, you
get the call from upstairs andI'd be saying, I'm sorry
minister, I can't write thatspeech right now.
I need to get to my poetryclass, but I'll do it tonight.

(11:53):
And, um, you know, like this.
And I, that felt almost like arevolutionary act to do that.
And, but that's where it was.
It was amazing.
I was writing speeches and um,briefing notes during the day.
Then at night mucking aroundwith metaphors, like spending
three days on two lines of apoem.
And it was just amazing.

So, um, after, so after doing these degrees,
what, what were you writingwhile you were doing these
degrees?
Like how, where, how did youstart?
I know you've dabbled in lots ofshort stories and you've found
lots of success.
So what came first?
Was it the short stories or thegetting into the novel writing?

Um, a bit.
It was a bit of both.
And the funny thing is I tookthree months off work to go to
Italy to write a novel that, um,had been, you know, floating
around the periphery for years,as we all have.
Um, and this is the days whenyour, your laptop was like, it
was heavy.
So it was, um, it was 20, 21years ago actually.

(12:45):
Uh, it was dragging this brickof a laptop around Italy and
around southern Italy.
And I was there for, um, a monthin The south of Italy.
And what I, I had this amazingnotebook that I'd bought,
scribbled everything in thatdescriptions, all the, you know,
like the sight and smells ofItaly.
I went up to Venice for a coupleof days.
I was coming back on the train.
I stopped in Rome to changetrains and to have some food.

(13:08):
And I was sitting there and Ijust thought, oh my God, I'd
left my notebook on that trainand it was gone.
It was gone.
And so that sort of, um, that,that had me, that was
devastating.
Like losing and,'cause I'm, I,I'd emailed myself fractions of
it and like little, basically anoutline and some scenes and

(13:30):
things like that, but nothinglike a hundred pages of amazing
description and,

The novel.
So you've, you lo you lost that,

I left it.
on a train and I spent a decadethinking, this is gonna turn up
somewhere if anyone can read mywriting.
Oh, it's just ridiculous.
And, um, so that sort of put a,a, that made it come to a bit of
a grinding Hal.
And then, you know, I was, um,not even a year later, I, I met
my, um, my husband and then camefamily and, and work and, you

(13:59):
know, I had a, for the last, uh,decade I've had a communications
consultancy.
But, um, even before that I was,you know, heading up
communications departments and,you know, having a couple of
babies in there as well.
So, you know, your creativewriting takes a, um, a lower
priority to the, sometimes tothe other.
It's, it's an indulgence morethan a necessity in many, many

(14:20):
ways, which is, you know, a sadway of looking at it.
So I wrote somewhere in between.
I wrote the first draft and a 30day fever, and literally.

days.

30 days.
So I was doing, um, you know,each, he who shall not be named
anymore, but it was basically anAmerican, um, global phenomenon
where every month, uh, everyNovember, every day, uh, people
around the world would write1600 words a day, and that's
50,000 words of a draft novel.
So I, I took part in that andfor me.

(14:49):
My youngest daughter, I thinkwas three or four.
So it was a way to be creativeand, and to get back into it,
I'd missed it.
And I'd been reading lots andI'm thinking, you know, you know
that feeling like that twitchysort of feeling.
You've got stories that need tocome out.
And so I wrote chunks of it, um,by hand next to the trampoline,
you know, while she's played.
But I'd learn my lesson inItaly.

(15:10):
So I'd come in and then typethem all up and add, add it to
it.
And that was my first draft ofsomewhere in between.
And then it literally sat in abox on my, um, bookshelf for six
years.
But it was always there, it wasalways speaking to me like, this
is a really cool story.
There's some real good boneshere.
And um, yeah.
And then 2020 I, um, you know,what happened in 2020 and I

(15:32):
thought I'm gonna have a bit oftime here.
Didn't have time.
My business absolutely exploded'cause people had space in their
own lives to think about theirown stories and how they want to
be to telling their own stories,their own content.
And so my business was really,really busy.
So that took a bit of a, um.
You know, writing, again, took abit of a backseat, but this time
I wasn't gonna let go of it anddedicated time in the following

(15:53):
year to really polish this firstdraft and make it something
worth exploring.

So do you still hand write

I start most things hand.
I do, I, I, I like a scribble.
If I'm feeling a little bitstuck, um, I will literally get
out the pen and paper and have abit of a, um, bit of a, a,
either an outline.
Um, most things start with ascribble, even like the, uh,
book I'm working at the moment.
Uh, the whole plot is scribbledon index cards

Wow, Holly just.
Held one up then.
That's amazing.
Do you think there's somethingabout writing, handwriting the
plot, particularly when you'retrying to work out what the
story is that helps slow downyour mind?

Absolutely.
And there is, um, there isscience behind creativity and
handwriting when you Think aboutit.
We haven't been using keyboardsfor that long, really.
Um, and so.
our brains approach a pen andpaper completely differently
than the way we do, the way weconnect to a keyboard.
And what, um, I tell clientswhen they're struggling to get

(17:02):
the words out, get off yourkeyboard and just try
scribbling, see what happens.
And that's normally when thingsget unlocked.
And for me, even outlining, Ifeel more comfortable outlining
on a blank piece of paper than Iever could in spreadsheets.
I hear about these authorscreating these amazing
spreadsheets of every scene andevery

Speaker 9 (17:19):
Hmm.

I look at a spreadsheet and I like, even now
I can see my shoulders just, butthey just give me the ick
because they're veryconstrained.
Whereas a a blank sheet ofpaper, there's this space for
you just to scribble and, and Ithink maybe'cause it's so, um,
you know, it doesn't reallyexist.
You could lose it.
All these things happen.
Like there's, there's less, itdoesn't have to be perfect.
It can be literally that, um,that flow of consciousness from

(17:42):
your brain.
So if I'm ever stuck on a scene,I will literally get out a blank
bit of paper, put a circle, andthen try and figure it out on
paper.

Mm.
So you've got this story then ina box and also typed up now, so

Yeah.
Yes.
Fucked up and printed twice

printed twice and have, had you gone back at
all or was that the first draft?
A very early draft.

No, that was the first draft.
And so in 2020, uh, it wasactually 2019, I met up with a
new client.
And this is, you know, the worldfamous alley and.
We just happened to, shehappened to mention she had an,
uh, a novel sitting in a box andI said, I've got a novel.
And we made an agreement that togo and, and to look at it for
the next 12 months.
And it was funny'cause I pulledit down, um, and read it and I

(18:27):
thought, yeah, it was awful.
And it was, you know, massivegaps of logic.
You know, the ending was, youknow, who knows what the, that
ending was, but I could reallysee the bones in it and I could
see this, um, this voice of thisyoung woman.
Um, you know, and I just knewthat there was some really solid
themes in there that I couldplay with and I could pull apart

(18:48):
and, and tease out.
And yeah, I, I really fell forit.
I fell in love with it and Iactually wrote a letter to it,
which is as cringey as itsounds.
And it was, you know, after Ifinished reading it, I, I just
wrote, I'm sorry, I've neglectedyou.
I, um, showed you a whole lotbetter, but this is what I love
about you and, and, for me, andagain, handwritten.
Um, and that was.
A way for me to affirm myself toit, but also it was almost like

(19:12):
accountability, which isridiculous because it's
literally in a notebook that noone will ever see other than me.
Um, but yeah, it just, it justfelt amazing.
It felt like there was somethingthere and there was a light
going off inside me.

Well, let's talk about the voice, because I
think this is one of the massivestrengths of the novel is
Katerina's snarky teenage voice,which is just such a pleasure to
dive into.
Um, can you talk about that?
Because obviously it's really, Ithink it's hard.
You know, being an adult, divingback into the teenage head, it's
almost something like I wouldsometimes when I go over to my

(19:44):
parents' place and house andstay over, I used to spend a lot
of time like,'cause I would becoming from interstate and, and
I'd feel like I was revertingback to my teenage self and I
didn't quite like that.
So how did, how did you do that?
How did you go back into thatand craft that voice?

Look, there were a few things I did.
I, um.
I really didn't want this to bea moralizing or belittling or
judgmental story for youngpeople or about young people.
I had playlists from that fromthe, um, you know, the late
nineties, uh, early twothousands that, you know,

(20:21):
basically the soundtrack to myown adolescence.
And that helped me sort of jumpinto some of those emotions and
feelings And, um, and in termsof the voice?
the other thing I wanted forthis character, I wanted, I
didn't want her to be, um, youknow, the perfect cheerleader,
you know, bouncy, shiny head.
Um, happy everyone loves hersort of character.

(20:42):
I wanted to have a bit ofbackbone and for that backbone
to get her in her way.
And, you know, there's been.
There has been some feedbackabout the likability of her and
you know, there's two thingsabout that.
Like, number one, why do ourgirls have to be likable?
Like we don't have those samesorts of criticisms leveled at
male characters.
But also, you know, when youthink about some of your
favorite characters fromfiction, female girl characters,

(21:06):
it's, you know, it's Jo fromlittle Women.
Like she was awful on paper.
Um, Wednesday Adams, you know,like she's, you know, like more
from pop culture but, and youknow, there's nothing at all
likable about her, but we loveher'cause she's got that snark,
Veronica, Mars, all thesecharacters that have the snark
and snark is where there'sconflict, but there's also

(21:26):
funniness with it.
But there's also massive room togrow like we use.
Um.
Snark or sarcasm to as ashelter, as a defense.
So I knew that if I had her havea bit of, um, a bite that it'd
be hiding something and whatcould that be hiding and, and
what other defense mechanismsdoes she have there and why does
she actually have them thereafter all?

(21:47):
Um, and in the first place.
So that's where I went that withthat, in terms of the voice and
the man mannerisms in that firstdraft, like I only had small
children when I wrote it, sotheir adolescence was a long, it
felt like a long way away.
But I've always been around, um,teens, like even, you know,
yourself.
Um, Madeline, when you, if youget on the train a little bit

(22:08):
earlier than five o'clock,you're there with all the school
kids and you hear theconversations they have and the
way they describe people and um,and some of the terms of phrases
they use and they're justhilarious.
And.
And, and poignant and, and, um,cutting and also generous and,
you know, the things that, theway they speak about things can

(22:29):
be really, really illuminating.
And so what I would do as I waswriting that was thinking like,
you know, yes, this is, might,might have been how I spoke as a
17-year-old, how much has it,has it changed?
Um, sometimes a language mightchange a bit, but I also didn't
wanna create something that wasfull of slang that would date as
well.
So it was a bit of a balancingact and it was things like when
I did finish.

(22:50):
Uh, the second draft, I sent itto a friend who had teenagers
and said, how relevant is this?
And one of the things she pickedup on, I had the main character
sworn around the beach in a calftown, and she said, now a
40-year-old woman might do that.
A teenager's not gonna do that.
So it was those sorts of things.
And you know, I said, asked herto ask her kids for a list of

(23:12):
insults that teenagers use, andthat was fun.
Um, so yeah, it was, you know,connecting with kids now, or
teens now.
And also, you know, the, theelemental truths haven't changed
for years of, of adolescents,and it's that time of growth and
tumultuousness and all the, allthe good stuff.

It's timeless, I think.
I absolutely adore lookingFowler brandy, like I'm a
nineties kid.
That's something that I grew upwith.
I think we studied it at school,so I totally read into that.
I think it's a very equalcomparison.
So I think,

Speaker 2 (23:46):
my goodness.

amazing job, Holly.
Um, so I wanna talk aboutwriting romance, um, Paul Light
Wood.
The hotter than the hot as youdescribed.
Kat calls him a surfing God.
Um, which in the end, you know,he, she, she, she does say this
quite a bit and he sort of, youknow, says, is this all you see?
I'm not justice.
He's a very complex character.

(24:06):
Um, you write the romance sobeautifully and I think it's a
hard skill to, to write romance.
Well, um, can you talk a littlebit about your approach to that

So the funny thing is, Madeline, I
didn't actually know it was aromance until other people told
me that

Speaker 11 (24:21):
really?

But like I knew there was, um, I knew there
was a relationship, like I justhadn't put that language around
it.
And I'm sure that's a bit of,um, ingrained snobbery from my
masters.
Uh, I, I know, in fact, I knowthat it is.
And two years ago I didn't evenknow what a trope was.
I didn't know what a trope was.
And so it's funny'cause thenpeople were reading my book and
saying, oh my gosh, I love howyou put this trope in.

(24:44):
And I'd go, okay, what's that?
And it was, um, it was reallyfunny.
But I think with, with youngadult fiction and romance, it's
all about the emotional truthof, of emo uh, of, um, scenarios
and action.
And like I'm thinking too aboutother, other genres and other

(25:05):
genre fiction and even literaryfiction whenever there's a sense
of connection in there.
Uh, what's the emotional truthbehind that and what the, where
the conflict comes.
And so.
In terms of how I tackled thatromance, it was also things
like, I, I wanted to be mindfulthat this is a young adult
novel.
There's that, but also that mymother would be reading it

mm

and I wanted to be able to have eye
contact with my family atChristmas and things like that.
And the fact that, you know, my,I have teenage daughters and
they'd be reading it, so Ididn't want, um, I wanted to
write something that is a, anoption for them.
And when I embraced the factthat it's a romance or, um, I
went a lot harder on that.
And so I thought, if these.

(25:46):
Teens are gonna be reading thisbook.
I want it to be, uh, respectful.
I wanted it also to berealistic, but also, but have
them something, have somethingto them for them to aspire to.
So that concept that a youngperson Could still have massive
dreams and not let a romance getin the way of that, that was
really important to me.
That message of, um, you know,the green flag male character

(26:08):
and his growth and, you know,and, and the way

you explain what a green flag male character
is?
Actually, Holly, because that'ssomething I've heard a lot.

Yeah, I think it's because we, we know
all, we all know all about redflags.
We know all about them.
And, um, and there's been a lot.
of literature about that,rightly so.
Absolutely.
And my book, um, I do have thisgreen flag character, so that's
basically the opposite of a redflag.
So green flags are the things weshould be looking for in the way
people interact with us thatmakes us feel good about

(26:36):
ourselves and that, um, thatreflects that this person might
feel good about themselves.
So, uh, the op opposite oftoxicity, I suppose, and with my
character, he is the green flagand a sea of red flags.
And so there's conflict thereand tension like, is he loyal to
his friends who are awful or,you know, is he loyal to

(26:57):
himself?
And I think that's possibly astruggle that, uh, that young
teen boys actually have.
Who do they model their behavioron?
We know some of them and they'reterrifying.
So having an option there for,for girls to read, do the, um,
that.
That's more appropriate thansome of the others that are out
there.
I think that's really important.

(27:18):
We know on TikTok A couple ofyears ago, there was a
massively, um, popular title outof America that's since become a
movie and it was awful.
Awful.
Um, and you know, I wanted anAussie story showing a
relationship that is respectful,that it's romantic, it's in a
setting that where it probablycouldn't, shouldn't be.

(27:40):
Um, but it is.
So that's what I really wantedto cover with that.

A family that also supports and encourages it,
which is really lovely.
And it's sometimes that's wherethe conflict comes.
It's like the family is saying,oh no, you can't date this
person or this person.
But you know, they're reallylovely and supportive family
too.

yeah.
And that was important to metoo.
There's a lot of young adultfiction features, quite
fractured family relationshipsand uh, and I didn't want that.
I wanted her to have a familyfull of heart.
Um.
And a family that even hergrandmother who drives her
crazy, she still has her bestinterest at heart.
And you know, and it's thatconflict.

(28:18):
And you know, Kat as a maincharacter, she very much sees
herself as a feminist, but she'snever actually questioned what
that means.
She just sees it as opposite towhat her grandmother is.
But the chance for them to buttheads is a chance for Kat to
explore her own sense of whatfeminism is and what it mean,
what it could look like, andwhat it could mean for,

Speaker 9 (28:36):
Mm.

for her.
And also, you know, family,those family dynamics.
Her parents are also a beautifulexample of a respectful,
romantic relationship that onpaper might not make sense, but
it does.
So I really wanted her to havethat role model as well.

Um, okay, so let's go back to, so you've just
made friends with Allie.
Allie is your

Speaker 2 (28:57):
Yes.
Oh my goodness.

and you've agreed that you're going, you've
got 12 months that you're goingto open up your old dusty boxes
of your manuscripts and gothrough them.
So what happens then?

So every month, and it's still in my
calendar, there's a standing,um, date in there and it's right
with Ellie.
And we would catch up on Zoom,of course, for the first two
years.
Um, and we've had, um, and thenwhen, you know, restrictions,
ease, we'd start meeting atdifferent places and we'd, um,
you know, chat and laugh a wholelot more than we wrote.

(29:29):
And, but yeah, I, I got throughthose.
Um, the next two drafts, um,sent out for beta readers, got
feedback out.
then?
I thought, okay, ready to pitchthis thing, let's do it.
I did the a SA speed dating,which was amazing, and I did a
kid lit.
Um, speed, uh, pitchingexperience as well.
And so five pitches.
I had four requests for, forfurther materials, which is

(29:52):
amazing.
And then I had four, um,beautifully kindly worded,
thanks, but no thanks.
Um, so, and I knew something waswrong in the first 30 pages,
like I knew it here in my gut,but I also knew that, um, and
the, some of the feedback I wasgetting back was, um, you, your
writing's really strong, butit's not quite there.
And so I sent it for anassessment with writer Victoria

(30:13):
manuscript assessment, andthat's an anonymous, um,
process, which I really liked.
I didn't want, um, anyone that Iknew looking at my work or that
even if I knew superficiallythrough social media or anything
like that, I really wanted thatblind process.
And that was amazing.
It came back with a, um, youknow, like a four page report
showing me exactly where I'dgone wrong.

(30:34):
And a lot of it was confirmingwhat I already knew.

what were some of the things in the report?
Do you remember?

Look, um, hi, I am Holly and I'm an info
dumper.
So there was a lot of that.
So the front end, like itstarted, you know, started to
slowly, um, you know, nothing,there was no conflict until, um,
you know, I need to bring thatforward.
Um, I needed to strengthen the,the, I suppose the conflict

(31:02):
between Captain and Paul aswell, so have him not be like,
bite back a little bit'causeshe's quite hard on him.
So he needed to stick up forhimself a little bit more.
And part of that was fleshinghim out a lot, um, and also
expecting a lot more of him.
And, and so creating that, thatfully fleshed character of him.
Um.
It was also building the familyrelationships a lot more for

(31:23):
her.
So there was that, you know,that toss and, uh, that tug and
pull, you know, that's in a, youknow, like in a normal, don't
wanna use the word normal, thatthat's in a family.
So there's always conflict, butthere's also love and, you know,
the banter and all that sort ofstuff.
And to also increase some ofthe, the themes go a little bit
harder on them, but withoutbeing too heavy handed,

That's excellent advice.
You must have just read thisfour page report and just gone,
ding, ding, ding.
This is

uh, I, I did, and it was funny because I,
I, uh, got it at the end ofNovember, first week in
December, Ellie and I ran awayto Phillip Island for a weekend
to write.
And I, my plan for those threedays was to.
Make a plan of attack for the,from the manuscript assessment
and actually get started.
I literally sat there for threedays wailing, like, where do I

(32:11):
begin?
Where do I start?
You know, like, you know, and itwas, um, I don't know how Ellie
put up with me for those threedays, but it was basically, um,
you know, like, uh, I spentthree days making a plan of
attack rather than actuallygetting any work done.
And I think there is, there'sthat sense of overwhelm
sometimes.
Like it was amazing.
I could see it, but it was alsomeant I was gonna have to take
the red pen and just go slushslash slash slash across slabs

(32:34):
upon slabs of copy.
And, um, and it's scarysometimes.

it is scary.
And I, I think it's really goodthough, to take those three days
where you just go, oh my God, ohmy God, how am I gonna do this?
Because your brain startsticking.
You are like, oh, I can, I cando this.
You gotta trust the process.
Um, so, and this, this is amanuscript too that has now been
with you for how many years

Well, oh gosh, how many years So I had
been sitting at my desk for sixyears.
Um.
been, I've been working on itbasically since June 21.
So, and this was November 22that I got the, um, manuscript.
So a year and, and a lot ofthinking about it.
And also, you know, it was thatconcept I was about to turn 50

(33:17):
in 2023.
So with these big milestonebirthdays, you know, there's all
that reflection and that senseof what have I done with my
life?
Look at my choices, what have Idone?
I've done nothing.
You know, like, just theridiculousness of it.
So, and I think that was part ofmy, um, you know, great meltdown
of December 23 was thinkinglike, how have I got another

(33:37):
year of not publishing a novel,not working on my craft, not,
um, you know, deprioritizing it.
So when I look at this timelineof what it took for when I wrote
this first draft through to whenit actually landed in my hand, I
could be filled withself-loathing.
Um, but you know, we need to bekind, but ourselves as well.
And, you know, recognize that.

(34:01):
It's not a priority sometimesand it can't be, you know, it's
for, you know, not just moms,but like there's, I'm sure
you've had these days thatyou're in your calendar, they're
looking at you like a beacon.
You can't wait to get to thatday'cause that's your writing
day.
You are gonna do all theseamazing things from between nine
and three.
And if you're anything like me,Madeline, you're gonna do half
of it at cafe.

(34:21):
So at least someone's bringingyou food that you don't have to
make yourself and all theseamazing things.
And then a phone call willhappen or an email or land and
straight away your prioritieshave to shift.
And the resentment that can comefrom that, um, it's valid.
So I think it is important toacknowledge that.
Um, I know I'm a much nicerperson when I've written.

(34:42):
A much nicer person when I'vemet my own promises to myself.
And, um, and I think there'spart of that so that, that long
time between that first draftand then getting it actually
finished and on the shelves,like, you know, it's, I should
be proud of it rather thanresentful.
So depending on what day it is,I veer between those two.

That's so interesting, Holly.
We are so hard on ourselves andparticularly as women too.
Um.
I was actually thinking howamazing it is that you've gone
through this journey of, ofreally working on your craft.
Um, you've gone and you've doneyour master's degree, you've got
your writing bestie.
You've made a commitment everyweek to meet up with a, a

(35:24):
writing friend due to, to workon this.
You are running your ownbusiness.
You've got two kids, busy, busylife, and COVID as well in
Melbourne at the time, butyou've gone and produced this
book, like for, as an outsiderwatching in Holly, I'm amazed at
what you've achieved, and I'm sosurprised to hear that at your
50th.
You're like, what have I donewith my life?

And that's, um, and it's funny when you hear
it laid out like that in dotpoints, that's when I can, um,
you know, go be a little bit,um, give myself a little bit
more grace.

Mm.
You should, you should.
I think we all should.
And do you know, it's somethingactually Tina said to me too,
she's, when you said that youare a better person after you've
written that day, um, Tina isthe same.
She has to get, that's why shegets up at four 30'cause to
write because if she doesn't doit, she knows that she'll be
feeling this, grating feeling inher, in her soul that she hasn't

(36:16):
fulfilled a particular task forthe day.
But no, Holly, you should bevery, very proud of what you,
and I heard actually for your50th birthday, you gifted
yourself a marathon run.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
did.

What?

Yeah.
Um, yeah.
When you say it out loud likethat, it is as ridiculous as it
sounds.
No, for me that was somethingabout, um, look, before I had
kids, so I was, I was 32, so Iwas, you know, sort of on the
upper edge of, um, when I met myhusband.
So for my 40th, my plan fordecades was to do the Camino in,

(36:53):
in Spain.
So when I turned 40, I had twosmall kids, so that wasn't going
to happen.
And when I turned 50, I had, youknow, older kids, but I'm still
not gonna leave them for fourweeks.
But I wanted something to markthat time that was, you know,
quite physical.
Something that was, um, anacknowledgement of, um, of my
strength.
I suppose.
This sounds really pretentious,but that's, I suppose that's

(37:14):
what it is.
And I have a, um, one of mybeautiful, beautiful friends,
Jackie, um, she is someone whoinspires me every day.
This is a woman who write runsultra marathons, so she'll
disappear up to Cannes and run180 kilometers.
And through the bush and thingslike that.
So I just said to her, I wannado something.
And two years before that, youknow, as part of the lockdowns,

(37:35):
I did a, um, half marathon and Idid that with my older daughter.
And, and that was amazing, justthe training process of that.
And, you know, the connectionthat, that built between the two
of us, like running for hoursbeside each other and the, and
the chats that we had.
So we did the Melbourne halfMarathon, then we did the Gold
Coast half.
And, um, I just said to Jackie,I feel like there's more in me.
What do you think?

(37:56):
But I'm turning 50.
And she said, it's all in yourhead.
Here's a plan.
And I'm, I love a plan, soliterally on this date, do this.
And so having someone to tell mewhat to do and just to do it, I
really loved.
And so, and that's what I did.
And it was, it was an incredibleprocess to cross, um, you know,
to train for four months.
It's a big ass, you know,there'd be four, four hours on a

(38:19):
Saturday that I'd be trudgingalong next to the Yara.
Being overtaken by all these,um, youngs felt things.
And there's me, um, trudgingalong, but crossing that, um,
finish line, you know, my familywas there.
They're holding up a sign thatsays, my mum runs faster than
yours.
Like basic.
Um, time will tell you that'snot true, but it was, yeah, it

(38:39):
was amazing feeling ofachievement and achievement
knowing that, um, you can doanything.
And that's the thing, likewriting a novel is massive.
It's huge.
It's putting your bum in a seatfor, you know, months upon,
months upon years.
And this felt very similar.
It was that you're doingsomething for no reason, no
one's making you do this, butthat sense of joy and

(39:00):
achievement and accomplishmentthat comes with that, it's, it's
a real buzz.

Yes, you already connected my Yes, I, the
marathon running and the prepand the training with, with
writing a novel.
I think they're both verysimilar traits, so I, I'm not
surprised.
There's probably quite a fewwriters perhaps that are also
marathon runners.
'cause it's that commitment,dedication to craft and

Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah,

Um, okay.
So you have got this, adviceback from the manuscript
assessment.
You've obviously gone and you'verevised your manuscript.
You've had a few, peopleinterested, you've.
Had a few rejections as well.
So what's next?

so what's next was I, um, I entered it in
the Hawkeye Prize, basicallyjust put it there and I thought,
I need to work on somethingelse.
This one story has occupied mybrain now, um, you know, not
including the years that sat,you know, dormant on my shelf,
but for.
You know, years, three yearsthat it occupied my every

(40:00):
creative thought and I thought,I need to do something else, so
I need to do something fun.
And so Ellie had introduced meto Romance Writers of Australia,
and, um, I went along to theirconference feeling like a real
fraud because, um, you know, asI said, I don't write romance,
but, um, I don't know what atrope is.
But I went along and I wassitting there and they have
these anthology competitions andthey talk, you know, they put a

(40:21):
prompt up on the screen andstraight away, I just had this
image in my head that justflowed.
And it was, um, the theme wasbubbles.
And I just wrote about a teambonding, you know, from my, um,
my government put days, youknow, when they'd send you on
these team bonding thingexcursions, and they're always
excruciating.
This one, I made an obstaclecourse and it was just really
fun.

(40:42):
And I thought, now literally onthe plane driving home, uh,
flying home, I, I wrote out thisstory and I thought.
That's right.
Writing's supposed to be fun.
It's not just literally attachedto an outcome.
Um, and then I thought aboutthis novel that I'd started in
Italy and I just thought, let'shave a go with a short story
with that.
Take the pressure off.
We don't have to do a hundredthousand words here.
Let's just bang out 3000.

(41:03):
I wrote those 3000, sent it toAli and she said, um, this
actually feels like a novel.
And I said, yeah, it's probablystill on a train going backwards
and forwards between Venice andRome.
Um, and I did that.
I sat down and I thought, okay,you know what?
And I got out my index cards.
I pulled out What I couldremember of this story from

(41:23):
these fragments of emails thatI'd sent to myself.
And, you know, so much hadchanged in that time myself,
even as a writer and my growth.
And, um, and I wrote a romcomand I just thought there was no,
nothing attached to it.
It was just the pure joy, joy ofwriting.
And it was also in the midst of,gosh, a thunderstorm of grief.
I lost both of my aunties withina month of each other, my mom's

(41:46):
sisters.
Um, I lost my best friend.
And so diving into this worldof, um, southern Italy and, um,
romance and, you know, all thefun stuff, it was just a bomb.
And in, when I finished writingthat, I again sent it off to one
of the romance writers ofAustralian con, um,
competitions.

(42:06):
And in the meantime I heard backfrom saying, you've been long
listed.
And I thought, oh, that'slovely.
You know, that's nice, isn't it?

do you wanna tell us a little bit about
Hawkeye development Price?

Yes, of course.
So I, when I enter competitions,and by the way I'm saying that
sounds like I've enteredthousands.
I haven't, but I always go forthe ones that give a bit of
feedback.
Um.
And I don't mind paying forthem.
I think it's something that, youknow, you get if you're getting
something back for that, fromthat entrance fee.

(42:37):
And if it's something that'ssupporting a creative
organization or business, Ithink that's worthwhile.
So the Hawkeye Man scriptdevelopment prize, it's, um, a
prize where they're looking fornew Australian voices.
So stories that might be alittle bit, um, maybe not
different, it's not the rightword, but like, it's, it's not
tied to genre.
So it's, there's not a lot ofrestrictions in what you are,

(42:57):
what you're doing.
There are some, they, there aresome, um, genres that they don't
publish in, but it gives youfeedback and that's what I was
really after.
So I'd had my manuscriptassessment and I'd rework this
novel to the best of my ability.
And then I just thought I need abreak from it.
And I, I really liked the lookof that competition because,
'cause of the feedback elements,but also some of the authors

(43:19):
that they'd published, I reallylike, um, the vibe of them.
And so when I heard I'd longlisted, that was amazing.
That was like a real sense ofvalidation after so many.
You know, knock backs and thingslike that.
And then shortlisted.
That was the ugly tears when Iwas picking up my kids.
I thought someone else in ourfamily had died because it was
like that for a while there.

(43:39):
Um, and then I won and it wasjust, and the best thing about
um, the win was just, you know,it was, it is, it's the stuff of
dreams like when your work thatyou love so much and you can't
help but put part of your ownheart and soul into this.
And it's something that's takenyou away from other things.
And you know, when you are toldrepeatedly that it's not bad,

(44:03):
but it's not quite good enoughthen to be told, actually, you
know what we think we'll awardthis surprise.
Yeah.
It was just gobsmacking.

Uh, that validation, it's so common, such
a common story when writers getthat first thing of validation.
And, and also I think it helps,and it's really sad and it's a
really bad thing, but a lot ofemerging writers feel this sense
of guilt for taking their timeaway from their family.
'cause ultimately that's whatwriting does.
It does take us away from familyand friends and loved ones.
Um, because often we are ridingin the cracks.

(44:32):
We're not, we're we're doingother things and we've got day
jobs and we're trying to fit inriding.
And it is, it, it is such a, aworthwhile thing, isn't it?
When you get that phone call.
What was it like, like when youfound out, how did you find out
when

I was actually having breakfast with a
girlfriend who, um, who was mymanager many years ago.
And, you know, there was amissed phone call and I just
ignored it.
And then, um, you know, howoften do we get voicemails these
days we don't.
So we were, I was driving homeand um, and then I heard the,
you know, it was, it was someonefrom Hawkeye saying, can you.
please give us a call back?

(45:06):
And I pulled over and my firstthought was, oh, this is really
lovely.
There's only five people in theshort list.
They're obviously ringing us allto say that, you know, thanks
for entering, um, so and so isone, but, you know, thanks so
much.
Have a nice day.
So I pulled over and it wasthat, um, saying, yeah, just
letting you know that you've wonthe whole kind.
I was, I did the whole, sorry,what?

(45:27):
Not, and I think I lapsed intoItalian for a bit there.
I know.
I swore.
Um, and I just burst into tearson the side of the road in the
South Melbourne.
It was just amazing.
And then, you know, rang thehusband and said, you are not
gonna believe this, but blah,blah.
And then rang mom and dad.
Yeah.
It was just, you know, thatfeeling, It's amazing.
So like I've got all thegoosebumps just thinking about
it.
And that was just the prize.

(45:48):
Like there was no guarantee ofpublication from that.
And you know, that's somethingthat it plains to say as part of
your entrance.
Um, this isn't a, um,publication prize that might
happen.
But, um, and then when theyoffered me the contract, the
best, part about that, I think Iwas actually with Ally on one of
our writing dates.
In the cafe.
And I'd been whinging to hersaying, it's been six weeks

(46:11):
since I've heard from Hawkey letthis, the structural edit's
done, which was part of myprize, was this structural edit.
They don't want it.
If they wanted it, they'd be,you know, I would've heard it's
all over.
And then um, she was readingsomething and I just checked my
email and sure enough there wasa publishing contract and I just
screamed and I just held myphone in her face and she
couldn't see what I was,'causeyou know, like waving my hand

(46:33):
around.
And then she said, can you juststop, let me read it.
And then she said, they'regiving you a contract.
And I said, I know.
And we just screamed and wecleared this entire cafe
courtyard'cause we were soexcited.
And you know, the barista cameout to see what was going on and
you know, they don't care.
But yeah, we was hugging and itwas just, you know, it was just
that perfect sort of moment tohave her with me when that email

(46:54):
came through

something so symbolic and special about that,
isn't it?

So special.

Like you, you guys have committed to each
other that you would do this,and then years later you've got
that contract.
That is incredible.
That's your marathon moment,isn't it?
But the marathon keeps goingafter you sign the publishing
contract.
So I wanna talk about that.
And particularly you have, um,an amazing background in
communications.
You were talking earlier aboutthe fact that you've grown this,

(47:20):
this business and help peopletell their stories and um, sort
of get their brand out there inan authentic way.
Um, now you sent this reallyinteresting post in our debut
crew 2025 chat, which I waslike, oh, I have to talk to
Holly about this.
You said that you had apre-launch strategy in mind.

(47:40):
I wanna hear everything aboutwhat you did to talk with
booksellers, book talkers, allthe sort of strategy behind it.

Look, the thing is, I think what a lot of
people get hung up on,particularly in our debut crew,
is, um, the pressure for thisone book to do well.
And of course, the pressure'sthere, we want our debuts to do
well, but we also need torecognize that our, our whole
profile isn't about that onetitle.
It's about a, hopefully a legacyof titles.

(48:09):
Um, title after title aftertitle.
We're building a brand based onourselves as authors rather than
these individual books that wehave.
Um, and so, and a lot of thatwas my strategy.
And we know from communications,any business people buy from
people they like, they buy frompeople they.
They know, or they feel likethey know, they buy from people

(48:31):
they trust.
And you know, trust is somethingthat's so, um, it can be really
tenuous.
So if you can go into somethingand for me, like go into this
concept of becoming an authorrather than, um, a communication
specialist, it was all about,um.
Being someone that is reflectiveof what you see on the screen.

(48:52):
What you see in my Instagram iswhat you'll see when you meet me
at a party, um, or book eventand things like that.
And it's, and it's somethingthat's, um, it, it's not
mercenary.
And I hope what I come at, whatI say now doesn't feel mercenary
because it is about sellingbooks, obviously, uh, as one of
the byproducts.
But we are going to be in thisindustry for a long time.

(49:13):
You know, that's what we want.
We're not, we very few of uswrite a book just to write that
one book.
And so it makes sense to be partof a community that's
supportive, but also one thatyou can support.
And that's where, um, I reallywanted to spend this year
leading into my publicationyear.
Being one where I could reallycement and, um, solidify

(49:34):
connections that I've built overtime online and bring that into
the real world space.
And that has just been thebiggest gift.
And originally when I wasoffered the contract, it was for
a 2026, um, publication date,but then it was brought forward.
So, um, and I wasn't worried atall'cause I knew I had these
amazing connections of peoplewho I've supported and who would

(49:56):
support me.
And, and it's based on a genuineconnection and a genuine, um,
shared love of writing and oflove of Aussie authors as well.
And I think that's been, I, Iknow for a fact that's been a
massive contributor to any ofthe success that I've achieved.
And that, um, and that Hawkeye,my publisher is, is experienced,

(50:17):
is because of these amazingconnections, like with people
like yourself.
Like it's just what a gift.

That's so, so, okay.
But give us some practical tipsthough, as well, Holly.

Um, so obviously like I know social
media, um, has its ills and Ihave, you know, I stopped using
Instagram two years ago for mybusiness because of those ills.
As an author as a debut authorfrom a quite a niche small
publisher.
I'm never ever gonna be onmorning TV for this, for this

(50:50):
young adult novel of

Well, you never know when it's picked up
for a big movie

Then maybe I'll, Yeah.
I'll get a little bit more loveonce at Hemsworth grabs a hold
of it or something.

it actually would make a fantastic movie.
So I'm, I'm

would.

in the cards.

Um, but so social media is one of those
tactics that we actually haveaccess to.
Um, you know, like that doesn'tcost money.
That can be really, reallypowerful if you are using it
effectively.
And, uh, by that I mean using itto build relationships.
So it's not as an advertisingplatform, it's a, it is, it's
the social, um, part of the namesort of gives away what it's

(51:25):
for.
So using features like the DMfeature in Instagram to really
get to know people.
So using stories.
Um, so when you are looking atpeople's stories, engage with
them.
Don't just like them, um, writea comment back if it's in a way
that's meaningful, not just forthe sake of um, you know,
getting your name out there.
'cause people can smell that amile off.

(51:45):
I have that quite a bit, youknow, in both my author brand as
well as my business.
Um, but it's that buildingrelationship over time and
expecting that slow burn and.
So That's, one part of it.
So social media, the booksellerstrategy for me, like I do, I
feel icky even calling it astrategy, but at bare bones,
that's what it is.

(52:06):
I knew that, um, for me as a, anauthor from a, a smaller
publisher, I would need to dosome hard yards.
And as a control freak, I wasquite happy about that.
But what that meant was I, in,so eight weeks before my book
came out, which was the Julyschool holidays, I went and
visited 37 bookstores in fourdays.

(52:26):
Not, not consecutively ondifferent days.

a very impressive fate

Well, what that.
was, that was a chance for me togive them my author information
statement.
A IS currently, yeah.
Uh, and about my book, butbasically eyeball, booksellers,
say, this is who I am, this iswhat my book's about.
Um.
I'm gonna be here with you forthe long term.
So, you know, let's, let's getto know each other basically.

(52:53):
And then what that meant was,was when, um, Hawkeye's
distributor sales rep came in,they already knew me.
They, they said, okay, so you'vemet Holly, what did you think?
Um, hopefully it was positive.
Uh, so it was building thatrelationship that's then
reinforced.
And when you think about anysort of communications, it
takes, you know, up to eighttouch points for someone to

(53:14):
actually recognize a brand.
Years ago it was three, but nowit's up to eight.
It's probably more than that.
So, you know, it's thatrecognition over time of, of a
person and of a vibe.
And then, so that was eightweeks out, four weeks out, I
did, um, another, just this timeit was an email saying, hi, it's
Holly here.
I met you in July.

(53:36):
You might remember me, um, knowthis, my book's coming out in
four weeks.
I'm getting really, reallyexcited.
I'd love to organize to catch upwith you when it comes in.
And then publication that, that,that's when I'd go, yay, it's
here.
And, uh, already at that time itwas, it was a, a real beautiful
feeling, um, straight away withthose.

(53:56):
It was wasn't even out foranother eight weeks.
They already had orders comingin for it.
And, and it's because no onecan, I'm gonna get emotionally.
No one will sell your work theway you can because you believe
in it and you love it.
And I'm sure there's some, uh,elements of belligerence that
can be attached to that.
But when you have a genuine,passionate passion for what you
do for a book like me, I knowit's perfect for teens who

(54:18):
aren't interested in fantasy.
Um, it's also come at a timewhen we know reading rates are
plummeting with teens.
So this is an option.
That they will, like if it'sthrust upon them.
Um, and some of the bestfeedback I've had is when people
have told me they've got thebook for themselves and their
child has taken it off theirbedside table to read like,

(54:41):
what, what an amazing response.
I've had people message me tosay they're not natural readers,
but they've loved it.
They've missed their tram stop.
'cause they just had to keepreading.
And, you know, that to me issuch an amazing feeling.
And I know that's come a lotfrom my social media, but also
from booksellers.
They're, they're connecting withmy story.
They can, connecting with me, Isuppose, as a, a person as well.

(55:03):
And that makes it easy for themto put a book in someone's
hands.

We cannot underestimate the importance of
booksellers hand selling books,um, particularly, you know,
especially after that firstmonth when you get that sort of
buzz and then it's, you know,things start to slow down a bit.
The only way that your book isgoing to sort of be in the hands
of readers, future readers is,is by the booksellers themselves

(55:30):
and they're incredible people.
What, so when you set up thosemeetings, um, I'm assuming you
contacted them in advance andorganized that you didn't just
drop in?
Or did you do a mixture?

So it was the eight week ones.
I, I just dropped in because itwas, um, you know, it was eight
weeks away and I went firstthing.
So, um, there was maybe one ortwo that I went at lunchtime
'cause I, you know, like knewthat these people are busy.
And so I went first thing in themorning.
So it was the first thing, youknow, well, the first couple of
hours of opening, so, which Iknow are generally quite, if

(56:02):
they had people there, I justhovered.
I just waited.
Like I was never gonna pushmyself way in.
Um, and I was always with thatsense of.
Here I am.
Here's this.
Happy to chat if you want to.
If you're busy, I'll nick off.
And, and that's what happened.
A couple of people were reallyflat chat and so I just, you
know, acknowledged that I couldsee you busy.
Um, here if you need, like, I'venever, ever played netball, but

(56:25):
I know that's a thing.
Um.
And so, but then other people,like I, there was a couple of
bookstores.
I sat, stood there for 20minutes chatting and it was
amazing and wonderful.
I had people hugging me,congratulations, this is your
debut.
Well done.
You know, a couple of them hadseen, um, elements of it in, um,
the distributors comms.

(56:45):
It was, you know, what's comingout.
So it was vaguely familiar tothem, but also having, um,
having a really tight log lineor, you know, like, you know,
the looking for Allie Brandymeets puberty, blues, whenever I
say looking for Allie Brandy,particularly to book people,
their eyes light up like it was.
For me personally, look, I wasin my twenties when that came
out.
That was the first time I sawmyself on the page as an

(57:07):
attorney Australian.
So look, I had that connectionto it.
And so it didn't matter who Iwas speaking to in a bookstore.
As soon as I said that title,their eyes lit up.
Um, people of a differentdemographic.
Um, when I said puberty, blues,a lot of people were familiar
with the story, but people underum, 30 are familiar with the
recent Netflix series and howbig that was.

(57:28):
So it immediately had that senseof connection, uh, both in terms
of, uh, other books, but also TVand movies.
Obviously.
The, um, the 25th anniversary oflooking for rally brandy was
last month.
Uh, so it was having that, youknow, very, very, very clear
this is who it's for.
And also this is what it's not,it's not a fantasy.
It's not another, it's not ayoung adult title that's a

(57:49):
fantasy.
This is contemporary.
Uh, it's romance, it's coming ofage, it's set on a Aussie beach.
And that is also a bit of a, um.
It is, it's a selling pointbecause we want Australian beach
stories.
We love Australian beachstories.
So that makes it an easy sell.
And obviously I'm not abookseller, but my, my feeling

(58:10):
is we want to acquit them tobook selling must be the fun
part of it.
Like, you know, like meetingpeople, ask them what they want,
you know, what kind of book youare looking for.
Oh my God, have you read this?
Like, that feels like the funpart.
So the more we can equip themwith, um, words I suppose, and
titles that can help them dotheir jobs like that.
What a buzz that is.

That's awesome, Holly.
Great advice.
And that's about sort of reallynailing what your brand is, I
suppose, and what your productis that you're trying to sell.
Like I know you said before likeyou're getting a bit of an ick
talking about strategy, but weshouldn't.
Kanick, I don't think becausethis is a business and it's,
it's their business too.

Yeah, and like strategy and strategic, uh,
like, you know, I didn't just goaround bookstores.
This was within a, an Asana, um,project, basically against
categories.
So I had categories of all thesedifferent communications
elements that I was going toapply to this.
Particularly when haw I broughtmy publication date forward.
I thought I'd have a nice 12months of going to events,

(59:11):
chatting to people, you know,you know, very relaxing.
But then suddenly, you know, itwas brought forward.
So I knew I needed to be a lotmore strategic about it.
So it's all in Asana.
It's all has, um, dates attachedto it, um, you know, steps and
actions against all of it.
So, you know, it is strategic, Ithink when it's those human
elements of building connection.
Like, I never ever want anyoneto think that the only reason

(59:34):
I've reached out to them at anevent or on Instagram is because
I think they're gonna sell mybook or buy my book.
So I think it, you know, like itneeds to be deeper than that.

Anyone who knows you, Holly knows that
you're a beautiful, wonderfulindustry citizen, and, and
you're part of our community.
And I think all of us are hereto, you know, push each other up
as well.
Like, we're not in it just forourselves.
We're building, we're part ofculture, aren't we?
And building culture and, andgetting our Australian stories
out there.
So,

Holly Cardamone (2) (01:00:01):
That's it.
And, and I think that's, youknow, all of our friends, and I
know that you are, um, a demonfor this.
When you see a friend's book ata bookstore, if it's not facing
out, you are not scared to do alittle bit of rearranging.
And you know, this, thatstealthy gorilla marketing
almost.
And how fun is that?
I had a little spot of that, um,at Chad Vegas last week.
I was there and I saw somefriends' titles and I thought,

(01:00:23):
oh, we're just gonna make youlook a bit prettier here.
So, and it is, it's supportingeach other.

Madeleine Cleary (01:00:27):
We are, we we're each other's cheerleaders,
I think.
And that's, that's why we are onInstagram.
That's why I am still onInstagram, even though I
absolutely despise it.
But I love it for the connectionin the community and being able
to celebrate people's wins aswell.
It's so great.
Not to say that there's notjealousy out there, of course
there's jealousy, but ultimatelythis is what our community's

(01:00:48):
about.
Now, before we, I ask you thefinal question, which is about
the top tip, your top tip for,um, writers.
Um, I do wanna, I just wannastress on that point about.
Um, engaging with Booksellers,um, and what, um, you are
telling them about your book.
Because I had this experiencerecently where I was in a Dimick
store, and this, the bookAmazing Books Booksellers, this

(01:01:11):
is at Dimick Perran.
They asked me, they were puttingtogether a spreadsheet for
Christmas with a whole bunch oftitles, and it's, it's very
organized and systematic that,um, that they're gonna recommend
for Christmas, um, during theChristmas period and in their
columns there, there.
So it's the title, what's itlike, what's the book like, and

(01:01:32):
how do you, how can you explainit in like three to four words?
Um, and that's really what they,all they need, they just need,
you know, what is this?
So they asked me that questionlike, oh, we're filling in our
spreadsheet now.
Can you tell us what this is?
So you have to come prepared forthat.
So I suppose really, reallythink, um, about how you sell
that.
So I think what I said for theButterfly women was something

(01:01:52):
like, um, Jack the Ripper meetsJane Austen.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
perfect.

That's all they needed.
I didn't have to explain whatthe book's about at all.

And I think that's a really interesting
concept because what you'retalking about there basically is
the vibes of the thing as fromthat famous movie and so not so
much what it is.
So it's not a, just a murdermystery, but, um, creepy,
thrilling, um, deliciouslycreepy.
Like the more you can put sortof personality and passion for
how you're describing somethingthat is not the, not the actual

(01:02:22):
what of it, but the value thatit brings in terms of your
feeling as a reader or yourexperience as a reader.

And that's why bringing in movie titles and,
and Netflix series like thatactually works.
That that helps them to, that,that ultimately that we all want
it the same outcome.
We want that, that customer tobuy the

And we want people reading.
And I think if it's a linkbetween, um, especially for
teens, like I'll talk to teensabout outer banks, which was um,
which is a Netflix series thatimmediately they connect to.
And the reason I use that as abit of a comp title is because
if they like that, whether it'sbanging soundtracks and these,
you know, fabulous teencharacters, I like my novel with

(01:02:59):
the bonfires on the beach aswell.

Speaker 9 (01:03:01):
Hmm.

Immediately a visual picture that they can
connect to, which then is aneasy sort of link between that
and my book.

Yes.
Yes.
And they'll, every time theylook at your title, they'll go,
oh, this is like looking Fowlerbrandy.
So then they can just hand sellthat over.
They'll be like, oh, this isbeach vibes.
That's all they, they won'tremember like the long
description of the book at all.
They won't remember the detail,but they'll remember those small
things.
So this is great advice.
Alright, top tip, Holly.

Top tip.
There's so many, but I think forme, and it's just based on what
we were chatting about before,the minute you feel stuck in any
way with your creativity, getout a blank piece of paper and a
pen and scribble, uh, just muckaround.
Have fun with it because this iswhere it is.
It's the fun, it's thecreativity.
Like when we are kids writingstories, we never, ever go
straight to the keyboard.

(01:03:49):
Um, hopefully that's still thecase in primary schools, but it
always starts off as a of a, uh,when, you know, when we're
really little, it's thosescrapbooks and things like that.
So start with a piece of paperand a pen and see how that feels
in terms of unlocking yourcreativity.

That is a great tip and that worked for me
in my most recent issue as well.
I was like, I'm gonna just putthis onto pen and paper.
Had never done that before andit's amazing how

Speaker 2 (01:04:14):
Did you.
like the feeling

It felt really nice.

Speaker 2 (01:04:18):
good.

and, and really different, different as
well.
'cause I've never really donethat before.
But, um, it makes sense I thinkto, to just slow down the brain
and really think through theconnections and the story.
So that's a great tip.
Summer in Between is out in allgood bookshops.
It is a brilliant book.
I think your teens will love it,but also I think you as adults

(01:04:40):
will really enjoy diving backinto it.
So, do pick up a copy and ifyou're in Melbourne, I'm sure
you can get it signed by Hollyas well.
So thank you so much HollyCardamone for coming on the book
Deal podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:04:52):
Thank you for having me.
That was so much fun.

you.

Speaker 8 (01:04:55):
Thank you for listening to the book Deal
podcast.
We're able to bring you theseweekly writerly chats because of
our amazing patrons.
Join the TPD family by becominga member of our Patreon
community@patreon.com slash thebook deal podcast.
And if you love the pod, pleasegive us a rating or review.
And don't forget to follow us onInstagram and Facebook.

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