In this episode of the Book Deal podcast, Madeleine chats with award-winning writer, editor, and podcaster Irma Gold. Recently launching to great acclaim her second novel, Shift, out now with MidnightSun. Irma delves into her inspirations, including her deep connection to Soweto, South Africa, and her journey from writing short fiction to publishing novels. The episode also explores her editing career, invaluable advice for emerging writers, and her experience with the creative process. Listen in to discover the intricacies of writing, the weight of imposter syndrome, and the vital importance of community and passion in an author's journey.
Our Debut in the Spotlight this week is Emily Paull with her debut novel, The Distance Between Dreams, out now with Fremantle Press.
00:00 Introduction to The Book Deal Podcast
00:43 Introducing Irma Gold
04:12 Imposter Syndrome
06:53 Irma's Early Writing Journey
12:13 From Short Stories to Editing
14:27 Accidental Children's Author
19:20 The Shift to Novel Writing
25:11 Introduction to the Novel
26:06 Family Connection to South Africa
27:06 Journey to Soweto
29:26 Writing About Soweto
33:38 Exploring the Expat Experience
41:24 Editing and Writing Advice
51:54 The Importance of Reading
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:09):
This is the Book Deal podcastwhere you will discover the
inspiring stories, the authorsbehind your favorite books.
No matter what sage of writingyou are at, we've got you
covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one
deal at a time.
Madeleine Cleary (00:29):
The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters, which it's recorded
on.
And pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging..
I had the joy of chatting withIrma Gold, Award-winning writer,
editor, and podcaster just afterthe release of her brilliant
(00:50):
second novel Shift, Out Now withMidnight Sun.
Books in publishing recentlysaid about Irma that she has
cemented herself as a standoutvoice in Australian contemporary
fiction Irma's.
Writing accolades are numerous,so I will do my best to
summarize them.
Irma's Debut novel, theBreaking, Won the New South
Wales Writers Center VarunaFellowship, canberra Critic
(01:12):
Circle Award and was shortlistedfor the a ACT notable award for
fiction.
Irma's Short fiction waspublished in a collection called
Two Steps Forward, and also hasbeen widely published in
journals and anthologies.
Irma is also the author of FivePicture Books for Children most
recently, where the Heart IsIrma has so much advice to give
(01:33):
from all angles of the industryas an editor for over two
decades and a co-host of one ofmy favorite podcasts, secrets
from the Green Room.
I hope you enjoy Irma Gold.
Welcome to the book Dealpodcast.
Thank you for having me.
It's so exciting to do a podcastcrossover as well.
(01:55):
It is.
It's so exciting.
I'm so thrilled to be here witha fellow podcaster.
Yes.
And I see we're actually wearingmatching green colors as well.
I know.
What are the odds?
We're just already in sync.
That's all right.
So I'm so excited.
We are here to talk about yourlatest novel shift, which, um,
we were just talking aboutbefore we hit record is such a
(02:16):
beautiful novel.
Um, I.
Went straight through it, but Ireally wanna read it again so I
can.
Go sentence by sentence becauseit's so beautifully crafted.
So congratulations on, thank youso much.
Before we do though, I actuallywanted to reflect, I, I don't
think you know this littleanecdote.
(02:36):
Um, I, so last year you were atthe Sorento Writers Festival.
Um, I was visiting as a, uh,not, not as a writer or a
speaker, but as an attendee.
And I actually saw you fromacross room.
We hadn't met yet.
I saw you from across the roomin the Conti and you were having
lunch, I think, with somewriters.
And I recognize you because I'ma big fan of your podcast.
(03:00):
And I was like, go Madeleine.
Go introduce yourself to Irmasay hello.
Tell her how much you love thepodcast.
I.
But I didn't, well,
Irma Gold (03:09):
I was too afraid.
Oh, it's, it's like a such afamiliar story.
I remember being like that.
And sometimes I still am not somuch anymore, but especially
before you've been published, Ithink you feel like, oh, why
would that person want to talkto me?
I have to say, I feel like it'sa very odd thing when people
say, say that to me, and theytell me these stories about how
they were too scared to come andtalk to me.
And I think it's just, I'm like,but why?
(03:32):
I'm just me.
But I remember feeling that waymyself and.
So, I mean, I've said on ourpodcast quite a lot.
Really encouraging people tocome up and say hello, because
actually it's so great.
Like it's the best.
And we're all just writerstogether, you know?
That's great.
We all are interested in thesame things.
We all wanna chat about the samethings.
(03:52):
And I think there's very fewwriters who would sort of snub
somebody.
I mean, they, you know, thereare writers like that and there
are stories like that, but I'mnot one of them.
So everyone should come and
Madeleine Cleary (04:04):
say hello.
That's right.
All right.
If you see Irma out and about.
Go say hello to her.
Absolutely.
Please do.
Do you think it's a bit ofimposter syndrome before you're
published where you feel likeyou're not part of that
community and does, is thatsomething that you've now got
two novels out in the world andyou've got a whole series of
other books as well?
Does this imposter syndrome evergo away?
Irma Gold (04:25):
I don't think it does, but I think certain things
change like that cha what you'retalking about there, that does
really change, I think becauseonce you, it's like any social
gathering, right?
If you know a few people, it'snot nearly so daunting and
you've already kind of got acrew.
So, but you know, I've been towriters festivals, you know,
sometimes where I don't knowanyone.
And then that is then dauntinguntil you see someone who you
(04:47):
know.
So I do think it shifts.
There's definitely that periodwhere you sort of feel like
you're trying to break into thatcommunity.
Uh, and unless you already knowpeople in it, that can just feel
really hard until you'reactually published.
But I think imposter syndromejust continues on.
I mean, we were talking justbefore we started recording
(05:08):
about how.
You know, you have this worrybefore your book comes out.
Will everyone hate it?
You know, and everyone feelsthat still.
It doesn't matter how many booksyou've published, you have this
absolute dread that, oh my God,what if nobody likes it?
And so for me, like you know,with Shift, when I got the first
book, books and publishingreview.
(05:29):
Which was said the most amazingthings, like more than I could
have possibly hoped for.
Like just such amazing thingsabout the book and about me as a
writer and the predominantemotion that I felt was relief.
And I, and I just think that'salways the way.
So I don't think it ever, thatself-doubt ever really goes
away.
And you know, on Secrets fromthe Green Room, I've spoken to
(05:49):
so many people now, you know.
People like Charlotte Wood andChristos Tsiolkas and you know,
all these people who've had hugesuccess and they all still have
some element of that impostersyndrome.
Self doubt.
It's just, I think it's justpart of being an artist
actually.
And you know, in Shift, Arlie,the main character is a
photographer.
I'm sure we'll get onto this,but.
(06:10):
He has this too.
And that's one of the thingsthat I think is really common
across the arts because it'ssuch a vulnerable thing to put
your workout into the world andhave it judged essentially.
So it's really vulnerable.
There's, I think there's alwaysgonna be self-doubt there.
Madeleine Cleary (06:25):
Well, that is very reassuring'cause I did just
say earlier that I was awake at3:00 AM wondering if everyone,
well, one, if anyone's going toread my book, two, if everyone's
gonna hate it, or three, which Ithink is even worse if there'll
be like a neutral response toit.
3, 3, 3
Irma Gold (06:42):
and a half star.
I'm sure that won't happen.
I mean, you've got such a fa afascinating premise for the
book.
I'm very excited to read it, soI am sure that's not the case.
Madeleine Cleary (06:52):
Alright, now I wanna talk.
So let's go back to thebeginning because I'm really
curious to know what was thefirst thing that you ever
published, Irma?
I
Irma Gold (07:01):
think it was a short story and I had a really.
Like unusual set ofcircumstances that probably set
me up badly for thinking this iswhat writing and publishing was
like, because it was acompetition and I won first
prize and then, you know, the,the local newspaper came and
(07:22):
took my photo and, and like tookthe worst photo you could ever,
I mean, I don't know why theytook it from the ground looking
up and I was young and they gaveme a double chin.
I mean, come on.
Um, but yeah.
And there was prize money and,you know, it was all the things.
Was that for like a short story?
Yeah, it was a short, and it wasa really short story.
(07:42):
Like, I can't remember how manywords, but I know it was only
one page.
Wow.
And that you got a photo yourpicture taken?
Yes.
It, well, it was part ofreconciliation week.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
So it, it was just like thislovely, lovely thing.
And I think I even got some likemedallion type thing or
something.
I can't, I can't remember now.
It's so long ago.
Madeleine Cleary (08:03):
Was that the first thing you'd ever written,
or have you always wanted to bea writer?
Irma Gold (08:07):
So I, my mom taught me to read before I started
school, and I just always wrote,I was always making books, but I
didn't actually know you couldbe a writer.
I know that sounds kind of dumb,but I never Irmagined it.
You know, writers were thesekind of hallowed beings.
I never conceived of being awriter, even though I was making
my own books from I, I mean, asearly as I can remember, and I
(08:30):
think there are like a fewthings that happened along the
way that.
All kind of fed into each other.
I still really distinctlyremember when I was 16 and I'd
just moved schools and I'd madefriends with this girl called
Simone, who is still one of mydearest friends.
And shortly after I started atthe school, her mum died.
(08:50):
And I remember sitting theretalking to her about it and I'd
never had anybody close to medie.
And.
She was talking about how angryshe was and how, you know,
people were just saying theseplatitudes, the adults around
her, and I remember.
Just feeling really kind ofuseless about how I could
actually support her and helpher.
And we were both big readers andwe were, you know, doing lots of
(09:14):
writing.
And so I went away and I wrotethis short story from the
perspective of a, a girl ourage, but who has her grandmother
die.
And I put all of the kind offeelings that I was observing in
my friend into this young girl'scharacter.
And when I gave it to her, shesaid, so vehemently.
(09:34):
That is exactly how I feel andno one understands that is
exactly how I feel.
And I mean, it was such a, agreat thing for me to be able to
do for her.
But I remember it was the firstmoment where I went, oh.
I have actually been able to putmyself into the shoes of someone
else's lived experience, andit's not something I've
(09:54):
experienced, but I've been ableto make that feel true on the
page.
And that was, I look back onthat now and I think that was
really pivotal.
I still didn't know I could be awriter at that point, but that
was like really pivotal in megoing, oh, this is actually
something I can do.
And but to go full circle, justso it's not, not as great as it
it sounds because then yearslater, so I went after school, I
(10:18):
didn't know what to do.
I mean, it seems so obvious nowthat I would be a writer and an
editor, but I had no idea.
I.
And so I went off to the UK andI was working terrible jobs and
traveling and partying, and Istopped writing for the first
time in my whole life.
And it was that moment ofstopping writing when I
realized, oh, this is actuallysomething I have to do.
And that was when I decided I.
(10:40):
I dunno if I'd quite decided Iwas going to be a writer.
I think I probably had, but Idecided I was gonna come back to
Australia and study creativewriting.
And in my first shoot ofcreative writing, we had to
write a piece and I was just solike, oh my God, what can I
write?
It's gotta be good.
(11:00):
I kept writing stuff and Icouldn't come up with anything I
was happy with.
And in the end I was like, youknow what?
I'm going to use that story thatI wrote when I was 16.
Now, at the time, that story gotan a plus.
It was selected to go in theschool.
You know, we had a magazineended the, at the end of the
year, featured the best works.
It went in there.
So, you know, it was generallyregarded as an exceptional piece
(11:22):
of writing.
Well, I gave that into my firstshoot.
I had, uh, the brilliant SusanHampton.
This was in Canberra, and shetore it to shreds, and it was
the best thing that could havehappened to me because I was
like, right, if I actually wannabe a writer, I'm gonna have to
step my game up.
(11:43):
That that story was a16-year-old story.
It was not good enough.
So it was like, it was anamazing thing.
It was really, honestly, thebest thing that could have
happened to me.
Madeleine Cleary (11:52):
Mm.
Don't rest on your laurels as awriter.
Don't draw from your 16yourself.
I mean, draw from that, that,that, that nostalgia, those
themes perhaps.
But you can keep persisting.
So what do you think?
So, so, so you're studyingcreative writing.
You, you sort of have this, nowyou've conceived an idea of
being a writer and being awriter is something, where do
(12:12):
you go from there?
So you're writing of shortfiction and you've published,
um, in a, in a newspaper.
You've won this competition.
What, what next?
Irma Gold (12:21):
Well, the first thing was when I decided to do
something, I throw my, my wholeself in.
And so I was like, I am onlygonna be a writer, and if that
means I'm gonna live in aGarrett and earn no money, so be
it.
And I had, in my second year, mytutor was Craig Cormick, who I
did the first two seasons of TheSecret from the Green Room
(12:41):
podcast with, we are greatfriends, we've been friends
since then.
But he said.
You know, you guys are gonnaneed to support yourself with
something other than writing.
And I was just like, oh no, I'mnot.
I'm just gonna, just gonna be abroke writer.
That's what I'm gonna do.
And, and then after a little bitI was like.
(13:03):
You know what?
Madeleine Cleary (13:04):
I think I might actually have to live.
So after eating probably twominute noodles every night.
The last two months.
Irma Gold (13:10):
Exactly.
So then I volunteered on an artsmagazine, uh, in Canberra, which
was called Muse Magazine.
It's, it's now defunct, but itwas a magazine that had a long
history and I startedvolunteering there.
And.
I thought, this is the only jobI want.
So this is how I realized Iwanted to be an editor as well.
It was the two kind of came intandem for me.
(13:32):
And, and, and so I, I thoughtwhen, when I finished uni, I
thought that's the only job Iwant to do.
And I thought the person doingthat is never going to go
somewhere else, so what am Igonna do?
And then a month later I get acall saying that she was moving
to another position and would Itake the deputy editor's job?
(13:53):
And then a year after that, theeditor left and I interviewed
for the job and I got theeditor's job.
So my writing, my editing kindof happened in tandem.
And at that time I was startingto publish short stories and it
kind of went on from there.
Madeleine Cleary (14:09):
Hmm.
So your debut collection ofshort stories, two steps
forward, so that was publishedin 2011.
Was that the first, um, uh, sortof stories collection that you'd
published?
Irma Gold (14:21):
Yes, it was.
So I'd had a couple of kidsbooks out before then, which
kind of happened accidentally.
How does publishing picturebooks happen accidentally, Irma?
Well, well I was working as, uh,an editor for the National
Library of Australia and theydecided to set up what is now a
hugely successful children'spublishing program.
(14:43):
And, uh, Susan Hall, who wasthen the publishing director,
said to me.
Would you like to write a coupleof children's books based on the
collections?
And so I, and so I did What agreat opportunity.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they were great fun to do.
Uh, so that was, they were thefirst books I had published.
(15:04):
But yeah, they were kind ofaccidental and I.
For a while, some people thoughtthat I was a children's author
first, which I never was.
I was always writing adultfiction from the start.
And then with my short stories Isubmitted for, so that was
published with a firm press aspart of a series of five short
fiction collections called LongStory Shorts.
(15:27):
They did a call out forsubmissions.
They got 450 submissions and Iwas, uh, shortlisted, but
ultIrmately rejected.
And when I got the rejectionletter from Martin Hughes, he
said to me, would you likefeedback?
And I was like, yeah, sure.
Now this is a lesson to everyonetake up the opportunity to get
(15:49):
feedback because apparently alot of people never responded to
that Irmail.
What really isn't that?
What isn't that gold though?
It's mind blowing to me.
You know, if ever if your workis rejected and, and it had been
shortlisted, so it had gotclose, that feedback may not.
Tell you anything, but it alsomight, and definitely if
someone's offering feedback,always take it.
(16:11):
So anyway, I said, yes, please.
And he went back to the tworeaders reports and they said
really opposing things.
And so he thought, well, to giveem a feedback, I'm actually
gonna go away and read thismanuscript.
Madeleine Cleary (16:23):
Wow.
So
Irma Gold (16:24):
I know, which is amazing for publisher to do
that.
So over his Christmas holiday,no less, he went away and read.
Manuscript, which became twosteps forward, and then he
phoned me to offer me acontract.
Oh my gosh, I just got shivers.
So it was such an amazing thingto be, to be shortlisted,
(16:44):
rejected, and then get acontract.
So always, always say yes tofeedback.
What was it like when you gotthat phone call?
Madeleine Cleary (16:51):
Pretty unexpected as well.
Irma Gold (16:53):
Yeah, it was totally unexpected.
It still, I think, is one of thebest phone calls I've ever
received.
Aw.
It was just, yeah, it was soexciting.
And that was my first adultfiction book, so yeah, it was,
it was amazing.
And that was a beautiful series.
They did such a great job withthat series.
Madeleine Cleary (17:09):
So, before we dive into talking about Shift, I
just wanna ask about SarahFerguson and the Duchess of
York.
Can you tell me what, what shehas had in your involvement in
your career?
Well, I don't know
Irma Gold (17:23):
how this happened.
I.
But my book, where the Heart Is,which is the children's book,
was read by her on this.
I think it might have beenduring Covid that it started
where she has this channel.
I don't know if she has itanymore.
I don't think she does.
But she had a, an enormousfollowing and she would read
these children's books and she,you know, it had a whole little
(17:46):
set.
Like organized for her and theset for where the heart is,
which is a story, and it's basedon a true story about a penguin
who.
Every year leaves the man whorescued him from an oil spin to
return 6,000 kilometers away.
And then he comes all the wayback again every year.
It's sort of scientificallyunheard of.
(18:06):
And anyway, so I wrote thisstory and, but the set was
hilarious.
It was like all this fruit, itwas very pH looking.
It was really quite bizarre.
And then when she gets on toread, like she's obviously not
read the book before and it is.
Hilarious.
It is the worst reading of thatbook that has ever been done.
But it got, but it was so great.
(18:26):
Like, and also because, youknow, I was talking before about
being that kid on my bedroomfloor, writing my stories.
Well, I grew up in England and Iwas obsessed with the royal
family, and I wrote a book aboutthe marriage of Sarah Ferguson
and the Prince who shall not benamed.
Um, so to have her reading.
My book was extraordinarilylike, I was just like my younger
(18:49):
self would've been in ameltdown, like absolute
meltdown.
So it's just the best thing.
'cause it was just hilarious andterrible and wonderful and like,
just extraordinary.
Like just, it's still sobizarre.
Is it on YouTube still?
It's still on YouTube.
People can, yeah, people canGoogle it.
It is, it's worth watching.
(19:09):
Just for the humor.
Just, I would say it's notreally reflective of the
writing.
Read it yourself.
'cause you'll read it betterthan Sarah Ferguson.
Madeleine Cleary (19:19):
Oh my gosh.
Amazing.
Okay, well let's talk now aboutyour, so you've moved from short
fiction picture storybooks tonovel writing.
Um, and you said that you'vealways been writing for adults.
Was a novel always in mind foryou?
Irma Gold (19:35):
I originally thought that I couldn't write a novel.
Like it just seemed aninsurmountable thing.
How did you even do it?
I mean, I remember being at unistudying creative writing,
thinking, oh, I just, I dunnothat I could ever do that.
But I remember also having thesame thought as an editor, like,
how would I ever edit a novel?
And now I just, I'm editingnovels constantly.
(19:58):
So I suppose over time I beganto see that it might be
something I could do.
I do have a novel zero, whichwe'll never see the light of day
that I worked on for seven yearsand just could not get it to
work.
There were just elements of it.
I couldn't, there, there areelements in that.
Book that are fantastic andthere are other elements that
(20:18):
are just so bad and I, it didn'thang together, but it was, you
know, it was a training novel.
And then I think with my nextbook, the Breaking I, I actually
tricked myself into writing thatnovel because I thought that I
was writing a short story.
Which ended up being the firstchapter.
And when I took it to my writinggroup, they were like, well, we
want to know what happens next.
(20:39):
And so I thought, oh, maybe I'llwrite some, you know, um, some,
oh, I can't think of the wordnow.
Join short stories.
What's the word?
You know what I mean?
Anyway.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
This.
I'm sorry, but this ismenopause.
The simplest words go out ofyour brain.
Uh, do not look forward to it.
Also being on a, on publicity.
No, just menopause.
Anyway, so I went away and Iwrote.
(21:01):
Not linked.
That's the word I was lookingfor.
Yeah.
See, not a hard word.
I went away and I wrote anothershort story and I brought that
to my writing group and theyagain said, we wanna know what
happens next.
And the wonderful John Clanchy,who is uh, my self-appointed
mentor, uh, said to me, I thinkyou might be writing a novel.
And so by that point, I think Ihad about 20,000 words.
(21:23):
So I'd kind of tricked myselfinto starting to write a novel
and then it just happened.
Really easily from there,actually the breaking, yeah.
I don't know if I'll ever havea, a writing experience like
that.
It just kind of flowed out ofme.
Madeleine Cleary (21:35):
What a great way as well to sort of, you
know, get people invested inyou.
Like they want to see the nextpart of the story, they wanna
see the next chapter.
I love that way of doing thatand having that writing
community around you can oftenbe so important to keep.
It's like, you know, when yousign up to go to a gym class,
you, you and you go with afriend, your friend's gonna wait
on you if you don't turn up,then.
(21:57):
Your friend's gonna be on theirown.
So it's almost like doing thingstogether.
Irma Gold (22:00):
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that if I hadn't have taken
that work to that writing group,I would've just thought, oh
yeah, I've written a shortstory.
Great.
Madeleine Cleary (22:08):
Exactly.
Community.
Very, very important.
Very important.
Okay.
Let's talk about your secondnovel now.
So Shift, which came out we, soon the 10th of March, so that's
about a month.
From recording.
Um, and this is, the setting isjust an incredible place.
Soweto in Johannesburg in SouthAfrica, um, a place that I knew
absolutely nothing about andashamedly, I think it's, um, an
(22:30):
incredible setting for a novel.
So can you Irma Gold give usthe, the, your elevator pitch
for shift?
Irma Gold (22:36):
Oh my God, I, I'm so bad at doing an elevator pitch
for this novel.
Okay.
I should be good at that.
But every time I see someonedescribe the book in a review, I
think, wow, you've nailed thatin a way that I have.
Not often the hardest thing,isn't it?
As an author, I feel like it'sso, I actually find it really,
(22:58):
really hard, and I think it'spartly because there is so many
things going on in this.
Book.
And you've got the complexity ofall of that in your head, don't
you?
And so it's just, I finddistilling it into one sentence,
I feel like I got it with thebreaking, but with this book, I
still don't have a good elevatorpitch.
But anyway.
Has it
Madeleine Cleary (23:15):
changed?
Have you found it's changed aswell, like your pitch?
Uh, yeah.
I'm just not doing very well atit, Matt.
Okay.
I'm, I'm sure it'll be good.
I actually, um, I understand'cause I had to pitch the
Butterfly Women for the firsttime last week, um, at.
My own, like I was beinginterviewed for a podcast and I
was like doing it like fiveminutes before the interview,
like just still tweaking thingsand I'm like, oh, I just, it's
(23:36):
hard to distill and I thinkoften it's a third person
getting a third person to do itfor you.
Yeah.
Irma Gold (23:43):
It really is.
I wish I could remember what thereviewers had said and then I
could just quote that back.
I should be more onto this.
Um, the book is about Arlie, whois an Australian photographer.
He is in his thirties and he'sjust kind of failing at life,
you know, really.
He's moderately successful, he'sgood at what he does, but you
know, like many people in thearts, he's at that kind of
(24:03):
mid-career stage where he is notkind of making it and he's.
Not got much money.
And he's also had a series offailed relationships.
And when he has another breakup,he decides that he needs
something, he needs to dosomething different.
And he goes to South Africawhere his mother was born and
grew up because there's Mystermystery surrounding her growing
(24:26):
up there.
And he's intrigued by the placeand by her silence around the
place.
And, uh, when he gets there, heends up in Clip Town, which is a
place where I've spent.
A lot of time and meets allthese wonderful people and
things kind of unfold fromthere.
This is the bit I find hardtalking about without spoilers.
Madeleine Cleary (24:45):
Yes.
Well leave that.
I think that's a greatcliffhanger to end it on and um,
yeah, it's such a interesting,fascinating book and that pitch
was wonderful.
Yammer, you.
Oh, thank you.
You did a great job.
So don't beat yourself up.
That was great.
So much.
Probably better than I can do.
Emily Paull (25:04):
Hi, my name is Emily Paul and I am the author
of the Historical novel, theDistance Between Dreams, which
is out now from FrIrmantlePress.
The novel is the story ofWinston Keller, a young man from
the working class who can'tafford the luxury of a dream,
and Sarah Willis, the daughterof an ambitious businessman who
dreams of freeing herself fromhis expectations.
The two meet at a party, 1 19,19 39, and fall for each other
(25:26):
hard, but a long held secretthat links their two families
and the growing world.
Conflict of the Second World Warpulls the two lovers apart.
Will they be able to find theirway back to one another?
And if not, will they ever beable to move on?
This book has a little somethingfor everyone, including music,
dancing, Shakespeare, AustralianRules, football, Hollywood
movies, punch up, and adashingly, handsome American
(25:48):
submariner and brings to lifethe West Australian port town of
Fremantle, which was the secondlargest active port during World
War ii after Pearl Harbor.
It's out now, just in time forMother's Day or just for anyone
who loves being transported backin time when they read.
Madeleine Cleary (26:06):
Tell us about your own family connection to
South Africa.
Irma Gold (26:10):
Yeah, so my dad was born in Johannesburg in the year
that apartheid officially began,and he's not South African, so
his dad is French and his momwas English.
And, um, but he grew up thereand then they left when he was
about 15 or so.
So I was always fascinated withSouth Africa.
(26:30):
And when I was about 14, I reada book called Biko, which is by
the journalist Donald Woods, whouncovered the, uh, well,
basically how Steve Biko, whowas one of the freedom fighters,
was murdered under the apartheidregime.
And that book just totally firedme up.
I, you know.
I, I already had thisfascination with South Africa,
(26:52):
and from that point I just wentand read everything I could get
my hands on about the FreedomFighters and, you know, then I
went into fiction, you know,Doris Lessing, Andre Brink, and
I was just reading everything Icould and I.
Soweto was the heart of thatresistance movement, and I just
always wanted to go there.
(27:13):
And it's, it's kind of, it's notreally the place most people
would have on their bucket list.
It's not a holiday, typicalholiday.
It's not a holiday destination.
But, uh, I, I had wanted to gothere my whole life and in fact,
two of my brothers made it there10 years before I got there.
And both of them separately cameon, you know, trips with me to
(27:33):
Soweto and it just.
It.
You know, I'd been so obsessedwith the place my whole life.
And then to get there, I justbecame more obsessed with it.
And on this one time that I wasthere in Soweto, my brother and
I, my brother is an architect,so I drew on him for the
character of Harris Arlie's dadand I, I chose to have him as an
(27:55):
architect because actually, youknow, when I was.
When I was there with my brotherAlbert, you realize what a
fascinating perspective that ison a place like Clip Town, uh,
which is, you know, it's mostlyTin shacks.
There are some brick buildingsthat were built during
apartheid, but they're tiny andthey're very basic.
Uh, but on that, on that lastday in Soweto, we didn't really
(28:17):
know what to do and we went to,uh, clip Town to look at this
memorial to the Freedom Charter.
Where the Freedom Charter wassigned.
It's actually the 70thanniversary of the charter this
year, which is kind of amazingtiming for my, my book.
And we met this guy calledBonani who said to us, you know,
would you like me to show youaround Clip Town?
And we just ended up spendingthe whole day with him and his
(28:39):
cousin Jacob.
And it was just amazing.
And I was like, oh my God, Iwanna come back here.
So the next time I went backwith, uh, my other brother
Roland, and we worked.
Sky, which is the SowetoClickdown youth and organization
that basically looks after kidsafter school and gives them a
place to come that's safe andyou know, plays games with them.
(29:02):
You know,'cause their parentsmight be in job at work, so
they're actually unsupervised.
You know, sometimes the kids asyoung as three are unsupervised
and so it gives them a place tocome.
It gives them someone who canhelp them with their homework.
And sometimes there's food,which is important.
Yeah, I mean, I just waswelcomed into, I like
unbelievably welcomed into thiscommunity.
(29:24):
Like it makes me quite emotionaltalking about it.
And Bob Nameng, who's thefounder of Sky, just, you know,
he said to me when I was there,Immer, you have to write about
Soweto.
And I was already thinking aboutit, so I was like, okay, Bob's
given me the green light.
Uh, but you know, his support,just like, you know, we were
talking before about thereviews.
(29:47):
And the reviews are amazing.
And you know, like when you get,uh, you know, I've just got a
couple of five star reviews andlike, it's just unbelievably
amazing.
But to me, Bob's support meansmore than anything.
And also Niq Mhlongo, who's, youknow, an international author,
but a sweat, an author who'spublished like 10 books and.
(30:07):
You know, I asked him to come onmy podcast, which he agreed to,
which blew me away.
And then I asked him if he mightconsider reading my manuscript,
which he did.
And I know like endorsements inthe industry are often just
like, oh yeah, they're friendswith that person.
But Niq had no reason to endorsemy book at all.
And so I.
For him to do.
That means more than anything,you know, with, with the fact
(30:28):
that he's written these 10novels set in Soweto.
So I've gone, I've forgottenyour question and I've gone off
on a total 10.
Madeleine Cleary (30:34):
No, no.
Oh, I was just absorbed in youranswer then.
It's, I think it's a amazing,and it, it, did you, did you
experience, I guess sometrepidation, um, about writing a
novel set in Soweto given where,you know, you are writing about
a culture that's very differentto your own in a country that's
not your own.
How do you approach.
Making sure you, you get thatstory right?
Irma Gold (30:55):
Yeah.
I mean, it's something I thoughtabout constantly during the
writing of this book and youknow, what the ethical
implications were from mycreative choices.
Sometimes I actually found,thinking about it, almost
paralyzing.
There were points during thewriting of the book where, where
it actually stopped me fromwriting because.
I'm a huge supporter of ownvoices writing, you know,
(31:18):
stories by, um, marginalizedpeoples from their own
experience.
And I work as an editor with alot of First Nations authors and
illustrators.
I've, I've kind of become a bitof a go-to editor for First
Nations work and I love doingthat, and it's really important
to me to be a part of gettingthat diversity of work out to
(31:38):
Australian readers.
So, but I also do think thatit's possible to Irmaginatively
understand people with differentlived experiences to your own.
But obviously it has to be donereally respectfully, really
carefully.
And you know, I verydeliberately, I.
Tell shift through the eyes ofArlie, who is an Australian, uh,
(32:01):
and who is an outsider.
So he's also able to reflect on,you know, the own, his own
ethical dilIrmas that he'sfacing because he's creating
this exhibition of work toreally show what, so what he's,
so, he's, he's a photographer ofpeople and he, he.
Gets people to sort of seeinside people.
So he's putting together thisexhibition, and in doing that,
(32:24):
he's also reflecting on, youknow, his own privilege and his
own role as, you know, anoutsider in a community that he
will never fully be, you know,a, a part of, in a sense.
He will always be slightly apart so.
I thought about that a lot.
I also asked my dear friend AmaKalani to read the manuscript
(32:49):
and just make sure that I hadn'tgot anything wrong culturally
and was really heartened thatthere were only a couple of very
tiny things that she picked up.
And also she was able to pick upwhere I got the Kasi language
wrong.
So Kasi is like the, and slang,so I, that was so helpful to me
that she, um.
Picked up all of you know, thethings that I hadn't got quite
(33:10):
right and sometimes gave me adifferent suggestion.
But I will say for yourlisteners, if they're using
sensitivity readers, this issomething that I think is so
important.
Even though Ama Kalani was myfriend, I made sure that I paid
her appropriately for her work.
And I would say, do not ask asensitivity reader to read your
(33:31):
manuscript unless you can paythem appropriately.
I think that's really, reallyimportant.
I.
Madeleine Cleary (33:35):
Yep.
And completely fair, I thinkabsolutely.
Talking about Arlie then, and hefeels this sense of belonging to
the community almost, eventhough he is an outsider, he
feels almost more at home inclip down than he does in back
in, um, in Melbourne.
Um, talk a little bit aboutexpat and that.
Discomfort that sometimes thoughyou feel, even though you do
(33:58):
feel that sense of belongingsometimes to a community, you
also are very aware of your ownsense of privilege, which I
think Arlie talks about in thebook perhaps, and explores that.
Um, do you, why you, you seem tobe drawn, I suppose, to the
expat experience.
What, why do you think that is?
What's so interesting about theexpat life?
Irma Gold (34:17):
Yeah, that's, that's an interesting question and it's
also an interesting observationthat Arlie feels more at home in
Soweto than he does inMelbourne.
You know, the book is also setpartly in Brunswick.
Uh, and he, and I think part ofthat is because it's such a
(34:37):
welcoming community and likeI've experienced that myself.
There's this word tu, where youdon't walk past somebody without
acknowledging them and sayinghello.
So you walk down the street andit's just the most joyful thing.
Everyone's high fiving you andlike, you know, it's just like
so gorgeous and, you know,people are so open and so
(34:58):
welcoming and.
One of the things that I loveabout the Swaran people is that
they are like, they speak theirmind.
They're very open.
They tell you exactly whatthey're thinking.
I'm a very open person to mydetriment sometimes, so we're on
the same wavelength.
Uh, but you know, Arlie, he is,he is aware of that sense of
privilege and, you know.
(35:21):
There's that discrepancybetween, I think so for example,
in Australia right now we'regoing through an economic
crisis, as is the world.
And a lot of people feel thatthey're struggling and a lot of
people are struggling.
But if we look at a place likeSoweto, we are so fortunate.
Like even as writers, you know,the average income of a writer
(35:41):
is so low, but you know, like.
You go to Soweto and people aremaybe eating one meal a day and
they're struggling to get onemeal a day.
In Clip Town where I've spentthe most time, there's 80%
unemployment.
Mm.
You know, there's no electricityunless you illegally patch into
the um system.
There's no sewage system.
(36:03):
There's no school for the kids,so they have to walk, you know,
every day.
So.
You know, Arlie, he doesn't havemuch money.
And in fact he, you know, he'svery aware though that he can
call on his brother Griff.
Yes.
Who is a lawyer.
Exactly.
Who, and he, he doesn't want tocall on him.
He's his younger brother.
And you know, Griff, I.
(36:23):
Is sort of regarded by hisfather as the successful one.
You know, he's got a great joband he's got this gorgeous
fiance and he seems to also beeven good at, you know, every
hobby he tries.
And so in comparison, Arliefeels like he's a bit of a
failure in his fathIrma's eyes,but you know, Arlie has that
option.
Mm-hmm.
Arlie can, you know, it mightbruise his ego, but he can phone
(36:45):
up.
You know his brother and say,Hey, I need some money.
Mm-hmm.
And Gloria, who is the woman whohe falls for, you know, points
out in many ways Arlie'sprivilege.
Mm-hmm.
And I love Glory.
She's one of my, oh, she's thebest.
She's one of my favoritecharacters.
Madeleine Cleary (37:03):
She is a wonderful character.
She was beautiful.
I
Irma Gold (37:06):
will say that she came from this.
One thing that happened, so mybrother and I, this one time
were invited to go to therehearsal of the local gospel
choir, which is all like kind ofyoung, you know, they're all
sort of 18, 20, 25, and it wasin the choir Masters Shack.
So these are very small, likethe whole house is smaller than.
(37:30):
You know, most people's diningroom, for example.
And so all the furniture wasshoved up against the wall, like
the couch was up on one side andthe whole choir was jammed in
there.
And so we were jammed in withthem and it was the most
powerful musical experience I'vehad in my whole life because we
are there and you just got themusic coursing through your body
(37:50):
and it's just, it's incredible.
And there was this one, therewas this one young girl who was
so gorgeous.
And had it such a phenomenalvoice.
And I just remember coming away.
She just made, I didn't talk toher'cause we just came in for
the rehearsal and we went outbefore they all broke up.
So some of the people I knewfrom other, you know, being
(38:12):
around Clip Town, but I didn'tknow her and I didn't see her
again.
But she sparked the character ofGlory.
'cause I started thinking about,you know.
What would it be like forsomebody who's got this
incredible voice but they're ina place like Clip Town, you
know, what would that actuallybe like and this kind of
desperation to find somethingbetter.
(38:33):
And yeah, so she was, eventhough, I dunno who she was and
I dunno anything about her, shewas the, the spark for that
character of glory.
Madeleine Cleary (38:41):
Gloria I think represents to me this novel and
how it's not trying to besimplistic in its message.
Obviously Apartheid has left aterrible legacy.
There's hardship, poverty inClip Town from the outside.
I think I remember Arlie'sparents.
I.
Googling the crime stats inSoweto.
So concerned that he's livingthere and not really
(39:02):
comprehending the reason why,but when you dig under the
surface, like you have done withyour brothers, that there's so
many amazing moments of joy andlight and art and um, and, and
that sense of hope, which Ithink is really interesting.
So it's, it's, it's.
A novel that, um, to me wasn'ttrying to preach a particular
(39:23):
type of message.
It was just trying to show thatbeautiful community.
Like you said, people when youwalk down the street would give
you a high five and say helloand unlikely probably in
Brunswick to do, to do that.
No happening to be in Brunswick,that's for sure.
But you know, you've got thepassion of people who are.
Falling out what those, thosetypes of hardships.
(39:45):
But then at the same time,you've got others like the choir
master in your novel who, um,are championing those, those
messages of hope for, for abetter future.
Irma Gold (39:54):
Yeah, and I think, I mean, I think the novel asks the
reader to consider a series ofquestions, but there's no
answers because That's right.
It's such a complex situationthere and.
You know, there, there are noanswers.
But the other thing is as well,you know, life is, life is
complex.
So at the Melbourne launch,Catherine Collette asked me, so
(40:18):
she was interviewing me and, andshe asked, you know, is there
any point really, I can'tremember what the exact question
was, but basically is there anypoint to art in a world where we
just have so much going on and,you know, all of these terrible
things happening?
But in the context of shift, Ithink it's actually a really
pertinent question becausewithout.
How could you survive?
(40:39):
Know, it in Soweto there is somuch music and so much dance and
you know, the arts are just evenmore vital and important in a
place like that because withoutthat, there's no joy and.
I don't want people to have theidea that this novel is really
hard going because there is somuch joy in it.
That's right.
It it is a reflection of life.
(41:00):
And also the other thing issometimes I always want to talk
about Soweto'cause I'm obsessedwith it.
But the thing is, the book isreally about people and about
relationships.
And that's really what is at theheart of all of my writing, I
think is, is those relationshipsbetween people.
I.
Madeleine Cleary (41:16):
And finding that connection.
Yeah.
Even if it's in a place verydifferent to your own.
Yeah,
Irma Gold (41:22):
absolutely.
Madeleine Cleary (41:23):
Yeah.
Before we finish up, I wannatalk about your editing
experience because I feel likeyou've got some great advice to
give to emerging writers.
You, um, have over two decadesexperience as, um, in-house and
freelance editor.
You also help out writersindividually as well, preparing
(41:44):
for submissions to, um,publishers.
What do you think, is thereanything that stands out with
those manuscripts that youreview that goes, oh yes, this
is going to get published.
Is there anything common, or,or, or even if not, what advice
would you have to emergingwriters when making their
submissions?
I.
Irma Gold (42:04):
I don't think I can ever say this is going to get
published because it is so hardto get published and so many
amazing books do not getpublished, and so many terrible
books do get published.
So just because I have amanuscript that deserves to be
published on my desk, it doesnot mean that it will be
published.
(42:24):
And so I'm always very.
Cautious in in what I say, butthere are definitely many books
that deserve to be published.
That is for sure.
The one thing that they all havein common is a spark.
It's like the X factor, and thisis what any publisher is looking
for.
It's.
(42:44):
Something that's indefinable,which is very unhelpful.
But I think it comes from whenthe writer is writing about
something that they'repassionate about.
So like your novel has come outof something that you were
interested in about your ownfamily and that's driven you
wanting to find more and, and,you know.
Write that book.
(43:05):
And it's the same with me withSoweto.
Like I was always fascinatedwith that place.
And then there's so many otherthings in the book, you know,
like I've always lovedphotography and, you know,
playing on the different ways ofseeing.
And you know, the book is alsoabout art making and, you know,
some of the things we've beentalking about, you know,
self-doubt and the, the, thecreative process and all of
(43:26):
those things.
So they're all things that I'minterested in exploring and.
I think when you are passionateabout something and you
genuinely care about something,it carries with it a little
spark.
Madeleine Cleary (43:38):
Mm.
Irma Gold (43:38):
And and that is the thing that makes a manuscript
alive.
I.
So Charlotte Wood talks aboutwriting where the heat is.
I think that's such a good thingto remember because if you write
where the heat is, you'll alwayshave that spark.
And then the technical things,you know, you can have an editor
help you with those, but thespark has to be there.
(44:00):
An editor can't insert a sparkinto your work if it's not
there.
It's just not there.
Madeleine Cleary (44:06):
Yes.
So great advice.
And actually, I think it was anepisode that, uh, on your
podcast secret from the Greenroom, um, that Karen Viggers did
with Cate Kennedy.
And Kate said, you know, youshould.
Stands to your desk.
I love that concept.
Yeah.
That, that feeling of joy inyour writing find.
Yes.
And that's that again, thatheat, that spark that.
(44:26):
Well, that's the reason why wewanna write and explore.
Absolutely.
Your passion for Soweto hasdriven this beautiful novel.
So I think, yeah, I think that'swonderful advice.
And um, yeah, something that.
Unless it comes from you, it's,it's not gonna come from anybody
else.
Irma Gold (44:44):
That's right.
And you know, I've seenpublishers speak where they say,
you know, I didn't know that Iwas interested in a novel on X
until it landed on my desk.
Mm-hmm.
Because it's.
Because it's the way that it'swritten and if it comes from
that, you know, spark offascination and passion and
interest, then it will be aliveon the page.
(45:04):
And that is, that is the crucialthing.
Yeah.
All the other stuff you can workwith an editor to improve.
I obviously also do love booksthat are beautifully written.
And again, that is something, Imean, when you work with an
editor, they ta as you wouldknow, they take your work to the
next level.
Absolutely.
So they can't, they, they can'tmake it something it's not, but
(45:24):
they will help you get it to thenext level.
And so I love it when amanuscript arrives and I can see
the promise in the writing and Ican see the sparks there.
And you know, it's a good thingfor people to know when they're
submitting that you can tellthat from reading a paragraph.
You know, I, I, I work forpublishers as an editor and I
also work for individualauthors, and I'm very selective
(45:45):
about the individual authors whoI take on, uh, because I wanna
enjoy the work and if I enjoyit, I'm also gonna be able to
give, you know, really usefulfeedback.
And I can tell immediatelywithin that first paragraph if I
want to edit a book or not.
Madeleine Cleary (46:01):
Yeah.
How do you approach the editingof your own work?
Uh, well,
Irma Gold (46:06):
everybody needs an editor, me included.
I, I feel like you just, there'scertain, I do think working as
an editor, I'm thinking aboutstructure and plot and pacing
and characterization every day,working on people's books, and I
know that has made me a betterwriter.
I can't quantify it.
I can't, you know, make directlinks, but I know that.
(46:29):
I'm thinking about those thingsevery day.
So it has definitely, I think,made me a better writer, but I
still need an editor.
And in fact, you know, I'veworked with John, the brilliant
John Clanchy, who should bebetter known than he is'cause he
is, uh, just an unbelievablewriter.
Uh, I've worked with him on boththe breaking and shift and he.
(46:51):
Has helped me take both of thosebooks absolutely.
To the next level.
He's also made really hardcalls, like with Shift.
There was in, and I'd forgottenthis, this is how much the book
has moved on.
I opened up this old Irmail fromhim where I was like, oh, that's
right.
There was this whole othercharacter in the book who was a
major character who he said shehas got to go.
(47:11):
Mm-hmm.
And I remember it was reallyhard at the time.
I was like, ah, I know he isright, but it's just really hard
to do.
And I cut her out and as soon asI cut her out the book.
Just took flight.
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine Cleary (47:23):
So he
Irma Gold (47:23):
was absolutely right.
And I, I mean, I always know,you know, when the editor tells
you something That's right.
Even when it's hard and youthink, oh God, damnit, yeah.
Yep.
I knew
Madeleine Cleary (47:32):
that,
Irma Gold (47:33):
but I didn't wanna have to do it.
Uh, and with the breaking, likethe book is in three parts and
originally, so the whole book isset in Thailand, but originally
the third part, I brought thecharacters back to Australia and
I feel like I did that againsttheir will.
You know, when you feel likecharacters actually want you to
take them in a certaindirection, and if you don't let
(47:53):
them go where they wanna go, thebook becomes a dead thing.
It doesn't work.
And so that last part, it justlost pacing.
It lost energy, it lost itsspark.
Mm-hmm.
And when I gave it to John, hesaid, you know what?
How about you try just scrappingpart three and keeping it in
Thailand and as soon as Istarted writing that it had the
(48:15):
same energy.
It just flowed in a way, thepart three, the original part
three had not, and so.
You know that that's whathappens when you work with a
good editor.
So I need a good editor justlike everybody else.
Madeleine Cleary (48:28):
Okay, so you're not superhuman woman?
No.
Okay.
That's good to know.
That's good to, I can
Irma Gold (48:32):
pick what's wrong with other people's manuscripts
immediately, but then with myown, I'm like, oh my God, how
did I not see that?
Like that's the first thing Iwould've noticed in someone
else's book, but like in my own.
I don't necessarily see it.
You're so, yeah.
You're so, you're so deep in it.
Madeleine Cleary (48:49):
So true.
And it's almost feels like, Ithink you, as you go along, do
you feel like you get better atspotting when it is not
following the path that itshould and you are able to
retract?
Or do you feel like it'ssomething that you see with,
with hindsight?
Irma Gold (49:04):
I don't know.
I feel like I'm not necessarilygetting better at that.
I mean, I didn't have any majorwrong turns in shift, but I
wrote it quite differently tothe breaking, the breaking I
wrote from start to end.
And the shift I shift, I wrote,I.
In different pieces.
I shifted around as I waswriting
Madeleine Cleary (49:24):
it,
Irma Gold (49:24):
so I, I don't, but I did.
So I didn't have anything majorlike that with Shift, but I had
different problIrma's I feellike every book is its own
thing, and you have a differentset of problems with every book,
and I'm sure, maybe it'sCharlotte Wood, I can't remember
who said this, but it's like youlearn how to write that book, so
you go, oh, I know how to writethat book now.
It doesn't mean you know how towrite the next one.
Madeleine Cleary (49:48):
Okay.
Well this is really reassuringto me as I'm trying struggling
slash struggling to write booktwo.
So I am just like, should I beable to do this?
I've done one, but it's, it's,
Irma Gold (49:58):
no, it's different every time and I'm writing my.
Third novel, well, technicallymy fourth, if you count my novel
Zero, but my third novel, andit's a different structure to
the other two.
I mean, they both had adifferent structure to each
other, but this is even, evenmore vastly different.
And yeah, I don't know how to, Idon't know how to write that one
either.
(50:19):
I mean, I've got a completefirst draft, so I feel like
I've, you know, oh, good luck.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I've kind of.
Yeah, I've kind of, I've got it.
But I feel like there's a pointin every book where you're like,
I have no idea what I'm doing.
I don't know if this is gonnawork.
Like who knows?
Constant crises of confidence.
Madeleine Cleary (50:38):
But we're dancing to our desk, can't we?
Yes.
Irma Gold (50:40):
Oh, look, I love write.
I love writing more than I cansay.
It is such a joy.
I, I know some people say it'spainful to write, but it's more
painful not to write.
But I just love it.
And maybe that's because I'm nota full-time writer.
I have, I have to write aroundmy editing work, so I have very
limited time right now becauseI'm in promo mode for shift.
I have no time to write and Ihaven't for months.
(51:01):
Uh, but you know, I, so Iusually only have two hours,
maybe twice a week or threetimes a week if I'm lucky.
And so I just sit down, I'mlike, bang, that's it.
Capitalize on that
Madeleine Cleary (51:12):
time.
Irma Gold (51:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's so great and I've gotmy coffee and I'm firing and I
love it.
And it's just, even when I'mrunning scenes that are really,
there's a.
Seen in shift, which is soemotional, and I still feel
emotional about it.
Madeleine Cleary (51:24):
But
Irma Gold (51:24):
even writing those scenes that are so emotional,
there's still, uh, thisbittersweet joy in the wr in the
actual writing, in the ideas andthe expression and the words.
I love, I love words on a page.
Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary (51:37):
Well, I think we can all tell, Irma you've got
such an amazing experience now.
You've given us so many, so manytop tips already, but um, as you
know, we always finish on one.
So Irma Gold, what is yournumber one top tip for emerging
writers?
I.
Irma Gold (51:54):
Oh look, it's gonna be one that other people have
said, but I, I, and I could havepicked something else, but I am
going to say read.
And the reason I'm going to saythat is because when I was
convener of editing at theUniversity of Canberra, I.
I remember having thisconversation with the convener
of the creative writing degreethat I've never forgotten, and
(52:15):
that year he had 300 studentsand he said of those 300, only
20 of them were actually avidreaders, and I found that so
shocking.
As someone who has grown upjust.
You know, living and breathingbooks and just reading
constantly.
I could not understand that.
(52:36):
Yeah, it's, isn't it, you
Madeleine Cleary (52:37):
think it's a given.
Irma Gold (52:39):
Yeah.
But you know, when I was talkingbefore about, you know, the fact
that I'm working on manuscriptsall the time and I'm.
Reading, and I'm thinking aboutstructure and all of those
things, but when you read books,you are absorbing all of those
things too.
Like you're learning withouteven knowing you are learning.
So you are, you are absorbingthings about structure and
characterization and, and pacingand plot and like all of those
(53:02):
things, they're just kind ofsubconsciously going in.
So.
I do think it is fundamentallythe most important thing for
writers to do, and I knoweveryone says it, but I also
know that a lot of people wantto be writers and they're not
doing it.
So that's why I'm saying itagain.
Madeleine Cleary (53:20):
So, okay.
That's Natasha lester actuallysaid the exact same thing.
That was her top tip too.
Irma Gold (53:24):
So Irma, so well,
Madeleine Cleary (53:25):
she's a good one to be, to be
Irma Gold (53:27):
in sync with.
She's amazing.
Madeleine Cleary (53:29):
That's right.
So we, here we go.
We've got Irma Gold, NatashaLester, two wonderful authors
telling everyone to read, and Iwould highly recommend everyone
go read Shift.
What an amazing segue.
I'm holding it up, even thoughour listeners can't see it.
I, yes.
Go and grab your self a copy andit's a masterclass, so read it
(53:50):
quickly like I did, and then gothrough and take your time.
It's a beautifully crafted book.
So Irma, thank you so much forjoining us in the Book Deal
podcast.
Thank you.
Irma Gold (53:58):
It has been an absolute joy.
I've loved it.
Thank you.
Thank you for listening to theBook Deal podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new apps drop and to keep
up to date with what the pod isdoing.
You can also find us onInstagram.
This is the Book Deal podcastwhere you will discover the
inspiring stories, the authorsbehind your favorite books.
No matter what sage of writingyou are at, we've got you
covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one
deal at a time.
Madeleine Cleary (00:29):
The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters, which it's recorded
on.
And pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging..
I had the joy of chatting withIrma Gold, Award-winning writer,
editor, and podcaster just afterthe release of her brilliant
(00:50):
second novel Shift, Out Now withMidnight Sun.
Books in publishing recentlysaid about Irma that she has
cemented herself as a standoutvoice in Australian contemporary
fiction Irma's.
Writing accolades are numerous,so I will do my best to
summarize them.
Irma's Debut novel, theBreaking, Won the New South
Wales Writers Center VarunaFellowship, canberra Critic
(01:12):
Circle Award and was shortlistedfor the a ACT notable award for
fiction.
Irma's Short fiction waspublished in a collection called
Two Steps Forward, and also hasbeen widely published in
journals and anthologies.
Irma is also the author of FivePicture Books for Children most
recently, where the Heart IsIrma has so much advice to give
(01:33):
from all angles of the industryas an editor for over two
decades and a co-host of one ofmy favorite podcasts, secrets
from the Green Room.
I hope you enjoy Irma Gold.
Welcome to the book Dealpodcast.
Thank you for having me.
It's so exciting to do a podcastcrossover as well.
(01:55):
It is.
It's so exciting.
I'm so thrilled to be here witha fellow podcaster.
Yes.
And I see we're actually wearingmatching green colors as well.
I know.
What are the odds?
We're just already in sync.
That's all right.
So I'm so excited.
We are here to talk about yourlatest novel shift, which, um,
we were just talking aboutbefore we hit record is such a
(02:16):
beautiful novel.
Um, I.
Went straight through it, but Ireally wanna read it again so I
can.
Go sentence by sentence becauseit's so beautifully crafted.
So congratulations on, thank youso much.
Before we do though, I actuallywanted to reflect, I, I don't
think you know this littleanecdote.
(02:36):
Um, I, so last year you were atthe Sorento Writers Festival.
Um, I was visiting as a, uh,not, not as a writer or a
speaker, but as an attendee.
And I actually saw you fromacross room.
We hadn't met yet.
I saw you from across the roomin the Conti and you were having
lunch, I think, with somewriters.
And I recognize you because I'ma big fan of your podcast.
(03:00):
And I was like, go Madeleine.
Go introduce yourself to Irmasay hello.
Tell her how much you love thepodcast.
I.
But I didn't, well,
Irma Gold (03:09):
I was too afraid.
Oh, it's, it's like a such afamiliar story.
I remember being like that.
And sometimes I still am not somuch anymore, but especially
before you've been published, Ithink you feel like, oh, why
would that person want to talkto me?
I have to say, I feel like it'sa very odd thing when people
say, say that to me, and theytell me these stories about how
they were too scared to come andtalk to me.
And I think it's just, I'm like,but why?
(03:32):
I'm just me.
But I remember feeling that waymyself and.
So, I mean, I've said on ourpodcast quite a lot.
Really encouraging people tocome up and say hello, because
actually it's so great.
Like it's the best.
And we're all just writerstogether, you know?
That's great.
We all are interested in thesame things.
We all wanna chat about the samethings.
(03:52):
And I think there's very fewwriters who would sort of snub
somebody.
I mean, they, you know, thereare writers like that and there
are stories like that, but I'mnot one of them.
So everyone should come and
Madeleine Cleary (04:04):
say hello.
That's right.
All right.
If you see Irma out and about.
Go say hello to her.
Absolutely.
Please do.
Do you think it's a bit ofimposter syndrome before you're
published where you feel likeyou're not part of that
community and does, is thatsomething that you've now got
two novels out in the world andyou've got a whole series of
other books as well?
Does this imposter syndrome evergo away?
Irma Gold (04:25):
I don't think it does, but I think certain things
change like that cha what you'retalking about there, that does
really change, I think becauseonce you, it's like any social
gathering, right?
If you know a few people, it'snot nearly so daunting and
you've already kind of got acrew.
So, but you know, I've been towriters festivals, you know,
sometimes where I don't knowanyone.
And then that is then dauntinguntil you see someone who you
(04:47):
know.
So I do think it shifts.
There's definitely that periodwhere you sort of feel like
you're trying to break into thatcommunity.
Uh, and unless you already knowpeople in it, that can just feel
really hard until you'reactually published.
But I think imposter syndromejust continues on.
I mean, we were talking justbefore we started recording
(05:08):
about how.
You know, you have this worrybefore your book comes out.
Will everyone hate it?
You know, and everyone feelsthat still.
It doesn't matter how many booksyou've published, you have this
absolute dread that, oh my God,what if nobody likes it?
And so for me, like you know,with Shift, when I got the first
book, books and publishingreview.
(05:29):
Which was said the most amazingthings, like more than I could
have possibly hoped for.
Like just such amazing thingsabout the book and about me as a
writer and the predominantemotion that I felt was relief.
And I, and I just think that'salways the way.
So I don't think it ever, thatself-doubt ever really goes
away.
And you know, on Secrets fromthe Green Room, I've spoken to
(05:49):
so many people now, you know.
People like Charlotte Wood andChristos Tsiolkas and you know,
all these people who've had hugesuccess and they all still have
some element of that impostersyndrome.
Self doubt.
It's just, I think it's justpart of being an artist
actually.
And you know, in Shift, Arlie,the main character is a
photographer.
I'm sure we'll get onto this,but.
(06:10):
He has this too.
And that's one of the thingsthat I think is really common
across the arts because it'ssuch a vulnerable thing to put
your workout into the world andhave it judged essentially.
So it's really vulnerable.
There's, I think there's alwaysgonna be self-doubt there.
Madeleine Cleary (06:25):
Well, that is very reassuring'cause I did just
say earlier that I was awake at3:00 AM wondering if everyone,
well, one, if anyone's going toread my book, two, if everyone's
gonna hate it, or three, which Ithink is even worse if there'll
be like a neutral response toit.
3, 3, 3
Irma Gold (06:42):
and a half star.
I'm sure that won't happen.
I mean, you've got such a fa afascinating premise for the
book.
I'm very excited to read it, soI am sure that's not the case.
Madeleine Cleary (06:52):
Alright, now I wanna talk.
So let's go back to thebeginning because I'm really
curious to know what was thefirst thing that you ever
published, Irma?
I
Irma Gold (07:01):
think it was a short story and I had a really.
Like unusual set ofcircumstances that probably set
me up badly for thinking this iswhat writing and publishing was
like, because it was acompetition and I won first
prize and then, you know, the,the local newspaper came and
(07:22):
took my photo and, and like tookthe worst photo you could ever,
I mean, I don't know why theytook it from the ground looking
up and I was young and they gaveme a double chin.
I mean, come on.
Um, but yeah.
And there was prize money and,you know, it was all the things.
Was that for like a short story?
Yeah, it was a short, and it wasa really short story.
(07:42):
Like, I can't remember how manywords, but I know it was only
one page.
Wow.
And that you got a photo yourpicture taken?
Yes.
It, well, it was part ofreconciliation week.
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
So it, it was just like thislovely, lovely thing.
And I think I even got some likemedallion type thing or
something.
I can't, I can't remember now.
It's so long ago.
Madeleine Cleary (08:03):
Was that the first thing you'd ever written,
or have you always wanted to bea writer?
Irma Gold (08:07):
So I, my mom taught me to read before I started
school, and I just always wrote,I was always making books, but I
didn't actually know you couldbe a writer.
I know that sounds kind of dumb,but I never Irmagined it.
You know, writers were thesekind of hallowed beings.
I never conceived of being awriter, even though I was making
my own books from I, I mean, asearly as I can remember, and I
(08:30):
think there are like a fewthings that happened along the
way that.
All kind of fed into each other.
I still really distinctlyremember when I was 16 and I'd
just moved schools and I'd madefriends with this girl called
Simone, who is still one of mydearest friends.
And shortly after I started atthe school, her mum died.
(08:50):
And I remember sitting theretalking to her about it and I'd
never had anybody close to medie.
And.
She was talking about how angryshe was and how, you know,
people were just saying theseplatitudes, the adults around
her, and I remember.
Just feeling really kind ofuseless about how I could
actually support her and helpher.
And we were both big readers andwe were, you know, doing lots of
(09:14):
writing.
And so I went away and I wrotethis short story from the
perspective of a, a girl ourage, but who has her grandmother
die.
And I put all of the kind offeelings that I was observing in
my friend into this young girl'scharacter.
And when I gave it to her, shesaid, so vehemently.
(09:34):
That is exactly how I feel andno one understands that is
exactly how I feel.
And I mean, it was such a, agreat thing for me to be able to
do for her.
But I remember it was the firstmoment where I went, oh.
I have actually been able to putmyself into the shoes of someone
else's lived experience, andit's not something I've
(09:54):
experienced, but I've been ableto make that feel true on the
page.
And that was, I look back onthat now and I think that was
really pivotal.
I still didn't know I could be awriter at that point, but that
was like really pivotal in megoing, oh, this is actually
something I can do.
And but to go full circle, justso it's not, not as great as it
it sounds because then yearslater, so I went after school, I
(10:18):
didn't know what to do.
I mean, it seems so obvious nowthat I would be a writer and an
editor, but I had no idea.
I.
And so I went off to the UK andI was working terrible jobs and
traveling and partying, and Istopped writing for the first
time in my whole life.
And it was that moment ofstopping writing when I
realized, oh, this is actuallysomething I have to do.
And that was when I decided I.
(10:40):
I dunno if I'd quite decided Iwas going to be a writer.
I think I probably had, but Idecided I was gonna come back to
Australia and study creativewriting.
And in my first shoot ofcreative writing, we had to
write a piece and I was just solike, oh my God, what can I
write?
It's gotta be good.
(11:00):
I kept writing stuff and Icouldn't come up with anything I
was happy with.
And in the end I was like, youknow what?
I'm going to use that story thatI wrote when I was 16.
Now, at the time, that story gotan a plus.
It was selected to go in theschool.
You know, we had a magazineended the, at the end of the
year, featured the best works.
It went in there.
So, you know, it was generallyregarded as an exceptional piece
(11:22):
of writing.
Well, I gave that into my firstshoot.
I had, uh, the brilliant SusanHampton.
This was in Canberra, and shetore it to shreds, and it was
the best thing that could havehappened to me because I was
like, right, if I actually wannabe a writer, I'm gonna have to
step my game up.
(11:43):
That that story was a16-year-old story.
It was not good enough.
So it was like, it was anamazing thing.
It was really, honestly, thebest thing that could have
happened to me.
Madeleine Cleary (11:52):
Mm.
Don't rest on your laurels as awriter.
Don't draw from your 16yourself.
I mean, draw from that, that,that, that nostalgia, those
themes perhaps.
But you can keep persisting.
So what do you think?
So, so, so you're studyingcreative writing.
You, you sort of have this, nowyou've conceived an idea of
being a writer and being awriter is something, where do
(12:12):
you go from there?
So you're writing of shortfiction and you've published,
um, in a, in a newspaper.
You've won this competition.
What, what next?
Irma Gold (12:21):
Well, the first thing was when I decided to do
something, I throw my, my wholeself in.
And so I was like, I am onlygonna be a writer, and if that
means I'm gonna live in aGarrett and earn no money, so be
it.
And I had, in my second year, mytutor was Craig Cormick, who I
did the first two seasons of TheSecret from the Green Room
(12:41):
podcast with, we are greatfriends, we've been friends
since then.
But he said.
You know, you guys are gonnaneed to support yourself with
something other than writing.
And I was just like, oh no, I'mnot.
I'm just gonna, just gonna be abroke writer.
That's what I'm gonna do.
And, and then after a little bitI was like.
(13:03):
You know what?
Madeleine Cleary (13:04):
I think I might actually have to live.
So after eating probably twominute noodles every night.
The last two months.
Irma Gold (13:10):
Exactly.
So then I volunteered on an artsmagazine, uh, in Canberra, which
was called Muse Magazine.
It's, it's now defunct, but itwas a magazine that had a long
history and I startedvolunteering there.
And.
I thought, this is the only jobI want.
So this is how I realized Iwanted to be an editor as well.
It was the two kind of came intandem for me.
(13:32):
And, and, and so I, I thoughtwhen, when I finished uni, I
thought that's the only job Iwant to do.
And I thought the person doingthat is never going to go
somewhere else, so what am Igonna do?
And then a month later I get acall saying that she was moving
to another position and would Itake the deputy editor's job?
(13:53):
And then a year after that, theeditor left and I interviewed
for the job and I got theeditor's job.
So my writing, my editing kindof happened in tandem.
And at that time I was startingto publish short stories and it
kind of went on from there.
Madeleine Cleary (14:09):
Hmm.
So your debut collection ofshort stories, two steps
forward, so that was publishedin 2011.
Was that the first, um, uh, sortof stories collection that you'd
published?
Irma Gold (14:21):
Yes, it was.
So I'd had a couple of kidsbooks out before then, which
kind of happened accidentally.
How does publishing picturebooks happen accidentally, Irma?
Well, well I was working as, uh,an editor for the National
Library of Australia and theydecided to set up what is now a
hugely successful children'spublishing program.
(14:43):
And, uh, Susan Hall, who wasthen the publishing director,
said to me.
Would you like to write a coupleof children's books based on the
collections?
And so I, and so I did What agreat opportunity.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And they were great fun to do.
Uh, so that was, they were thefirst books I had published.
(15:04):
But yeah, they were kind ofaccidental and I.
For a while, some people thoughtthat I was a children's author
first, which I never was.
I was always writing adultfiction from the start.
And then with my short stories Isubmitted for, so that was
published with a firm press aspart of a series of five short
fiction collections called LongStory Shorts.
(15:27):
They did a call out forsubmissions.
They got 450 submissions and Iwas, uh, shortlisted, but
ultIrmately rejected.
And when I got the rejectionletter from Martin Hughes, he
said to me, would you likefeedback?
And I was like, yeah, sure.
Now this is a lesson to everyonetake up the opportunity to get
(15:49):
feedback because apparently alot of people never responded to
that Irmail.
What really isn't that?
What isn't that gold though?
It's mind blowing to me.
You know, if ever if your workis rejected and, and it had been
shortlisted, so it had gotclose, that feedback may not.
Tell you anything, but it alsomight, and definitely if
someone's offering feedback,always take it.
(16:11):
So anyway, I said, yes, please.
And he went back to the tworeaders reports and they said
really opposing things.
And so he thought, well, to giveem a feedback, I'm actually
gonna go away and read thismanuscript.
Madeleine Cleary (16:23):
Wow.
So
Irma Gold (16:24):
I know, which is amazing for publisher to do
that.
So over his Christmas holiday,no less, he went away and read.
Manuscript, which became twosteps forward, and then he
phoned me to offer me acontract.
Oh my gosh, I just got shivers.
So it was such an amazing thingto be, to be shortlisted,
(16:44):
rejected, and then get acontract.
So always, always say yes tofeedback.
What was it like when you gotthat phone call?
Madeleine Cleary (16:51):
Pretty unexpected as well.
Irma Gold (16:53):
Yeah, it was totally unexpected.
It still, I think, is one of thebest phone calls I've ever
received.
Aw.
It was just, yeah, it was soexciting.
And that was my first adultfiction book, so yeah, it was,
it was amazing.
And that was a beautiful series.
They did such a great job withthat series.
Madeleine Cleary (17:09):
So, before we dive into talking about Shift, I
just wanna ask about SarahFerguson and the Duchess of
York.
Can you tell me what, what shehas had in your involvement in
your career?
Well, I don't know
Irma Gold (17:23):
how this happened.
I.
But my book, where the Heart Is,which is the children's book,
was read by her on this.
I think it might have beenduring Covid that it started
where she has this channel.
I don't know if she has itanymore.
I don't think she does.
But she had a, an enormousfollowing and she would read
these children's books and she,you know, it had a whole little
(17:46):
set.
Like organized for her and theset for where the heart is,
which is a story, and it's basedon a true story about a penguin
who.
Every year leaves the man whorescued him from an oil spin to
return 6,000 kilometers away.
And then he comes all the wayback again every year.
It's sort of scientificallyunheard of.
(18:06):
And anyway, so I wrote thisstory and, but the set was
hilarious.
It was like all this fruit, itwas very pH looking.
It was really quite bizarre.
And then when she gets on toread, like she's obviously not
read the book before and it is.
Hilarious.
It is the worst reading of thatbook that has ever been done.
But it got, but it was so great.
(18:26):
Like, and also because, youknow, I was talking before about
being that kid on my bedroomfloor, writing my stories.
Well, I grew up in England and Iwas obsessed with the royal
family, and I wrote a book aboutthe marriage of Sarah Ferguson
and the Prince who shall not benamed.
Um, so to have her reading.
My book was extraordinarilylike, I was just like my younger
(18:49):
self would've been in ameltdown, like absolute
meltdown.
So it's just the best thing.
'cause it was just hilarious andterrible and wonderful and like,
just extraordinary.
Like just, it's still sobizarre.
Is it on YouTube still?
It's still on YouTube.
People can, yeah, people canGoogle it.
It is, it's worth watching.
(19:09):
Just for the humor.
Just, I would say it's notreally reflective of the
writing.
Read it yourself.
'cause you'll read it betterthan Sarah Ferguson.
Madeleine Cleary (19:19):
Oh my gosh.
Amazing.
Okay, well let's talk now aboutyour, so you've moved from short
fiction picture storybooks tonovel writing.
Um, and you said that you'vealways been writing for adults.
Was a novel always in mind foryou?
Irma Gold (19:35):
I originally thought that I couldn't write a novel.
Like it just seemed aninsurmountable thing.
How did you even do it?
I mean, I remember being at unistudying creative writing,
thinking, oh, I just, I dunnothat I could ever do that.
But I remember also having thesame thought as an editor, like,
how would I ever edit a novel?
And now I just, I'm editingnovels constantly.
(19:58):
So I suppose over time I beganto see that it might be
something I could do.
I do have a novel zero, whichwe'll never see the light of day
that I worked on for seven yearsand just could not get it to
work.
There were just elements of it.
I couldn't, there, there areelements in that.
Book that are fantastic andthere are other elements that
(20:18):
are just so bad and I, it didn'thang together, but it was, you
know, it was a training novel.
And then I think with my nextbook, the Breaking I, I actually
tricked myself into writing thatnovel because I thought that I
was writing a short story.
Which ended up being the firstchapter.
And when I took it to my writinggroup, they were like, well, we
want to know what happens next.
(20:39):
And so I thought, oh, maybe I'llwrite some, you know, um, some,
oh, I can't think of the wordnow.
Join short stories.
What's the word?
You know what I mean?
Anyway.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
This.
I'm sorry, but this ismenopause.
The simplest words go out ofyour brain.
Uh, do not look forward to it.
Also being on a, on publicity.
No, just menopause.
Anyway, so I went away and Iwrote.
(21:01):
Not linked.
That's the word I was lookingfor.
Yeah.
See, not a hard word.
I went away and I wrote anothershort story and I brought that
to my writing group and theyagain said, we wanna know what
happens next.
And the wonderful John Clanchy,who is uh, my self-appointed
mentor, uh, said to me, I thinkyou might be writing a novel.
And so by that point, I think Ihad about 20,000 words.
(21:23):
So I'd kind of tricked myselfinto starting to write a novel
and then it just happened.
Really easily from there,actually the breaking, yeah.
I don't know if I'll ever havea, a writing experience like
that.
It just kind of flowed out ofme.
Madeleine Cleary (21:35):
What a great way as well to sort of, you
know, get people invested inyou.
Like they want to see the nextpart of the story, they wanna
see the next chapter.
I love that way of doing thatand having that writing
community around you can oftenbe so important to keep.
It's like, you know, when yousign up to go to a gym class,
you, you and you go with afriend, your friend's gonna wait
on you if you don't turn up,then.
(21:57):
Your friend's gonna be on theirown.
So it's almost like doing thingstogether.
Irma Gold (22:00):
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure that if I hadn't have taken
that work to that writing group,I would've just thought, oh
yeah, I've written a shortstory.
Great.
Madeleine Cleary (22:08):
Exactly.
Community.
Very, very important.
Very important.
Okay.
Let's talk about your secondnovel now.
So Shift, which came out we, soon the 10th of March, so that's
about a month.
From recording.
Um, and this is, the setting isjust an incredible place.
Soweto in Johannesburg in SouthAfrica, um, a place that I knew
absolutely nothing about andashamedly, I think it's, um, an
(22:30):
incredible setting for a novel.
So can you Irma Gold give usthe, the, your elevator pitch
for shift?
Irma Gold (22:36):
Oh my God, I, I'm so bad at doing an elevator pitch
for this novel.
Okay.
I should be good at that.
But every time I see someonedescribe the book in a review, I
think, wow, you've nailed thatin a way that I have.
Not often the hardest thing,isn't it?
As an author, I feel like it'sso, I actually find it really,
(22:58):
really hard, and I think it'spartly because there is so many
things going on in this.
Book.
And you've got the complexity ofall of that in your head, don't
you?
And so it's just, I finddistilling it into one sentence,
I feel like I got it with thebreaking, but with this book, I
still don't have a good elevatorpitch.
But anyway.
Has it
Madeleine Cleary (23:15):
changed?
Have you found it's changed aswell, like your pitch?
Uh, yeah.
I'm just not doing very well atit, Matt.
Okay.
I'm, I'm sure it'll be good.
I actually, um, I understand'cause I had to pitch the
Butterfly Women for the firsttime last week, um, at.
My own, like I was beinginterviewed for a podcast and I
was like doing it like fiveminutes before the interview,
like just still tweaking thingsand I'm like, oh, I just, it's
(23:36):
hard to distill and I thinkoften it's a third person
getting a third person to do itfor you.
Yeah.
Irma Gold (23:43):
It really is.
I wish I could remember what thereviewers had said and then I
could just quote that back.
I should be more onto this.
Um, the book is about Arlie, whois an Australian photographer.
He is in his thirties and he'sjust kind of failing at life,
you know, really.
He's moderately successful, he'sgood at what he does, but you
know, like many people in thearts, he's at that kind of
(24:03):
mid-career stage where he is notkind of making it and he's.
Not got much money.
And he's also had a series offailed relationships.
And when he has another breakup,he decides that he needs
something, he needs to dosomething different.
And he goes to South Africawhere his mother was born and
grew up because there's Mystermystery surrounding her growing
(24:26):
up there.
And he's intrigued by the placeand by her silence around the
place.
And, uh, when he gets there, heends up in Clip Town, which is a
place where I've spent.
A lot of time and meets allthese wonderful people and
things kind of unfold fromthere.
This is the bit I find hardtalking about without spoilers.
Madeleine Cleary (24:45):
Yes.
Well leave that.
I think that's a greatcliffhanger to end it on and um,
yeah, it's such a interesting,fascinating book and that pitch
was wonderful.
Yammer, you.
Oh, thank you.
You did a great job.
So don't beat yourself up.
That was great.
So much.
Probably better than I can do.
Emily Paull (25:04):
Hi, my name is Emily Paul and I am the author
of the Historical novel, theDistance Between Dreams, which
is out now from FrIrmantlePress.
The novel is the story ofWinston Keller, a young man from
the working class who can'tafford the luxury of a dream,
and Sarah Willis, the daughterof an ambitious businessman who
dreams of freeing herself fromhis expectations.
The two meet at a party, 1 19,19 39, and fall for each other
(25:26):
hard, but a long held secretthat links their two families
and the growing world.
Conflict of the Second World Warpulls the two lovers apart.
Will they be able to find theirway back to one another?
And if not, will they ever beable to move on?
This book has a little somethingfor everyone, including music,
dancing, Shakespeare, AustralianRules, football, Hollywood
movies, punch up, and adashingly, handsome American
(25:48):
submariner and brings to lifethe West Australian port town of
Fremantle, which was the secondlargest active port during World
War ii after Pearl Harbor.
It's out now, just in time forMother's Day or just for anyone
who loves being transported backin time when they read.
Madeleine Cleary (26:06):
Tell us about your own family connection to
South Africa.
Irma Gold (26:10):
Yeah, so my dad was born in Johannesburg in the year
that apartheid officially began,and he's not South African, so
his dad is French and his momwas English.
And, um, but he grew up thereand then they left when he was
about 15 or so.
So I was always fascinated withSouth Africa.
(26:30):
And when I was about 14, I reada book called Biko, which is by
the journalist Donald Woods, whouncovered the, uh, well,
basically how Steve Biko, whowas one of the freedom fighters,
was murdered under the apartheidregime.
And that book just totally firedme up.
I, you know.
I, I already had thisfascination with South Africa,
(26:52):
and from that point I just wentand read everything I could get
my hands on about the FreedomFighters and, you know, then I
went into fiction, you know,Doris Lessing, Andre Brink, and
I was just reading everything Icould and I.
Soweto was the heart of thatresistance movement, and I just
always wanted to go there.
(27:13):
And it's, it's kind of, it's notreally the place most people
would have on their bucket list.
It's not a holiday, typicalholiday.
It's not a holiday destination.
But, uh, I, I had wanted to gothere my whole life and in fact,
two of my brothers made it there10 years before I got there.
And both of them separately cameon, you know, trips with me to
(27:33):
Soweto and it just.
It.
You know, I'd been so obsessedwith the place my whole life.
And then to get there, I justbecame more obsessed with it.
And on this one time that I wasthere in Soweto, my brother and
I, my brother is an architect,so I drew on him for the
character of Harris Arlie's dadand I, I chose to have him as an
(27:55):
architect because actually, youknow, when I was.
When I was there with my brotherAlbert, you realize what a
fascinating perspective that ison a place like Clip Town, uh,
which is, you know, it's mostlyTin shacks.
There are some brick buildingsthat were built during
apartheid, but they're tiny andthey're very basic.
Uh, but on that, on that lastday in Soweto, we didn't really
(28:17):
know what to do and we went to,uh, clip Town to look at this
memorial to the Freedom Charter.
Where the Freedom Charter wassigned.
It's actually the 70thanniversary of the charter this
year, which is kind of amazingtiming for my, my book.
And we met this guy calledBonani who said to us, you know,
would you like me to show youaround Clip Town?
And we just ended up spendingthe whole day with him and his
(28:39):
cousin Jacob.
And it was just amazing.
And I was like, oh my God, Iwanna come back here.
So the next time I went backwith, uh, my other brother
Roland, and we worked.
Sky, which is the SowetoClickdown youth and organization
that basically looks after kidsafter school and gives them a
place to come that's safe andyou know, plays games with them.
(29:02):
You know,'cause their parentsmight be in job at work, so
they're actually unsupervised.
You know, sometimes the kids asyoung as three are unsupervised
and so it gives them a place tocome.
It gives them someone who canhelp them with their homework.
And sometimes there's food,which is important.
Yeah, I mean, I just waswelcomed into, I like
unbelievably welcomed into thiscommunity.
(29:24):
Like it makes me quite emotionaltalking about it.
And Bob Nameng, who's thefounder of Sky, just, you know,
he said to me when I was there,Immer, you have to write about
Soweto.
And I was already thinking aboutit, so I was like, okay, Bob's
given me the green light.
Uh, but you know, his support,just like, you know, we were
talking before about thereviews.
(29:47):
And the reviews are amazing.
And you know, like when you get,uh, you know, I've just got a
couple of five star reviews andlike, it's just unbelievably
amazing.
But to me, Bob's support meansmore than anything.
And also Niq Mhlongo, who's, youknow, an international author,
but a sweat, an author who'spublished like 10 books and.
(30:07):
You know, I asked him to come onmy podcast, which he agreed to,
which blew me away.
And then I asked him if he mightconsider reading my manuscript,
which he did.
And I know like endorsements inthe industry are often just
like, oh yeah, they're friendswith that person.
But Niq had no reason to endorsemy book at all.
And so I.
For him to do.
That means more than anything,you know, with, with the fact
(30:28):
that he's written these 10novels set in Soweto.
So I've gone, I've forgottenyour question and I've gone off
on a total 10.
Madeleine Cleary (30:34):
No, no.
Oh, I was just absorbed in youranswer then.
It's, I think it's a amazing,and it, it, did you, did you
experience, I guess sometrepidation, um, about writing a
novel set in Soweto given where,you know, you are writing about
a culture that's very differentto your own in a country that's
not your own.
How do you approach.
Making sure you, you get thatstory right?
Irma Gold (30:55):
Yeah.
I mean, it's something I thoughtabout constantly during the
writing of this book and youknow, what the ethical
implications were from mycreative choices.
Sometimes I actually found,thinking about it, almost
paralyzing.
There were points during thewriting of the book where, where
it actually stopped me fromwriting because.
I'm a huge supporter of ownvoices writing, you know,
(31:18):
stories by, um, marginalizedpeoples from their own
experience.
And I work as an editor with alot of First Nations authors and
illustrators.
I've, I've kind of become a bitof a go-to editor for First
Nations work and I love doingthat, and it's really important
to me to be a part of gettingthat diversity of work out to
(31:38):
Australian readers.
So, but I also do think thatit's possible to Irmaginatively
understand people with differentlived experiences to your own.
But obviously it has to be donereally respectfully, really
carefully.
And you know, I verydeliberately, I.
Tell shift through the eyes ofArlie, who is an Australian, uh,
(32:01):
and who is an outsider.
So he's also able to reflect on,you know, the own, his own
ethical dilIrmas that he'sfacing because he's creating
this exhibition of work toreally show what, so what he's,
so, he's, he's a photographer ofpeople and he, he.
Gets people to sort of seeinside people.
So he's putting together thisexhibition, and in doing that,
(32:24):
he's also reflecting on, youknow, his own privilege and his
own role as, you know, anoutsider in a community that he
will never fully be, you know,a, a part of, in a sense.
He will always be slightly apart so.
I thought about that a lot.
I also asked my dear friend AmaKalani to read the manuscript
(32:49):
and just make sure that I hadn'tgot anything wrong culturally
and was really heartened thatthere were only a couple of very
tiny things that she picked up.
And also she was able to pick upwhere I got the Kasi language
wrong.
So Kasi is like the, and slang,so I, that was so helpful to me
that she, um.
Picked up all of you know, thethings that I hadn't got quite
(33:10):
right and sometimes gave me adifferent suggestion.
But I will say for yourlisteners, if they're using
sensitivity readers, this issomething that I think is so
important.
Even though Ama Kalani was myfriend, I made sure that I paid
her appropriately for her work.
And I would say, do not ask asensitivity reader to read your
(33:31):
manuscript unless you can paythem appropriately.
I think that's really, reallyimportant.
I.
Madeleine Cleary (33:35):
Yep.
And completely fair, I thinkabsolutely.
Talking about Arlie then, and hefeels this sense of belonging to
the community almost, eventhough he is an outsider, he
feels almost more at home inclip down than he does in back
in, um, in Melbourne.
Um, talk a little bit aboutexpat and that.
Discomfort that sometimes thoughyou feel, even though you do
(33:58):
feel that sense of belongingsometimes to a community, you
also are very aware of your ownsense of privilege, which I
think Arlie talks about in thebook perhaps, and explores that.
Um, do you, why you, you seem tobe drawn, I suppose, to the
expat experience.
What, why do you think that is?
What's so interesting about theexpat life?
Irma Gold (34:17):
Yeah, that's, that's an interesting question and it's
also an interesting observationthat Arlie feels more at home in
Soweto than he does inMelbourne.
You know, the book is also setpartly in Brunswick.
Uh, and he, and I think part ofthat is because it's such a
(34:37):
welcoming community and likeI've experienced that myself.
There's this word tu, where youdon't walk past somebody without
acknowledging them and sayinghello.
So you walk down the street andit's just the most joyful thing.
Everyone's high fiving you andlike, you know, it's just like
so gorgeous and, you know,people are so open and so
(34:58):
welcoming and.
One of the things that I loveabout the Swaran people is that
they are like, they speak theirmind.
They're very open.
They tell you exactly whatthey're thinking.
I'm a very open person to mydetriment sometimes, so we're on
the same wavelength.
Uh, but you know, Arlie, he is,he is aware of that sense of
privilege and, you know.
(35:21):
There's that discrepancybetween, I think so for example,
in Australia right now we'regoing through an economic
crisis, as is the world.
And a lot of people feel thatthey're struggling and a lot of
people are struggling.
But if we look at a place likeSoweto, we are so fortunate.
Like even as writers, you know,the average income of a writer
(35:41):
is so low, but you know, like.
You go to Soweto and people aremaybe eating one meal a day and
they're struggling to get onemeal a day.
In Clip Town where I've spentthe most time, there's 80%
unemployment.
Mm.
You know, there's no electricityunless you illegally patch into
the um system.
There's no sewage system.
(36:03):
There's no school for the kids,so they have to walk, you know,
every day.
So.
You know, Arlie, he doesn't havemuch money.
And in fact he, you know, he'svery aware though that he can
call on his brother Griff.
Yes.
Who is a lawyer.
Exactly.
Who, and he, he doesn't want tocall on him.
He's his younger brother.
And you know, Griff, I.
(36:23):
Is sort of regarded by hisfather as the successful one.
You know, he's got a great joband he's got this gorgeous
fiance and he seems to also beeven good at, you know, every
hobby he tries.
And so in comparison, Arliefeels like he's a bit of a
failure in his fathIrma's eyes,but you know, Arlie has that
option.
Mm-hmm.
Arlie can, you know, it mightbruise his ego, but he can phone
(36:45):
up.
You know his brother and say,Hey, I need some money.
Mm-hmm.
And Gloria, who is the woman whohe falls for, you know, points
out in many ways Arlie'sprivilege.
Mm-hmm.
And I love Glory.
She's one of my, oh, she's thebest.
She's one of my favoritecharacters.
Madeleine Cleary (37:03):
She is a wonderful character.
She was beautiful.
I
Irma Gold (37:06):
will say that she came from this.
One thing that happened, so mybrother and I, this one time
were invited to go to therehearsal of the local gospel
choir, which is all like kind ofyoung, you know, they're all
sort of 18, 20, 25, and it wasin the choir Masters Shack.
So these are very small, likethe whole house is smaller than.
(37:30):
You know, most people's diningroom, for example.
And so all the furniture wasshoved up against the wall, like
the couch was up on one side andthe whole choir was jammed in
there.
And so we were jammed in withthem and it was the most
powerful musical experience I'vehad in my whole life because we
are there and you just got themusic coursing through your body
(37:50):
and it's just, it's incredible.
And there was this one, therewas this one young girl who was
so gorgeous.
And had it such a phenomenalvoice.
And I just remember coming away.
She just made, I didn't talk toher'cause we just came in for
the rehearsal and we went outbefore they all broke up.
So some of the people I knewfrom other, you know, being
(38:12):
around Clip Town, but I didn'tknow her and I didn't see her
again.
But she sparked the character ofGlory.
'cause I started thinking about,you know.
What would it be like forsomebody who's got this
incredible voice but they're ina place like Clip Town, you
know, what would that actuallybe like and this kind of
desperation to find somethingbetter.
(38:33):
And yeah, so she was, eventhough, I dunno who she was and
I dunno anything about her, shewas the, the spark for that
character of glory.
Madeleine Cleary (38:41):
Gloria I think represents to me this novel and
how it's not trying to besimplistic in its message.
Obviously Apartheid has left aterrible legacy.
There's hardship, poverty inClip Town from the outside.
I think I remember Arlie'sparents.
I.
Googling the crime stats inSoweto.
So concerned that he's livingthere and not really
(39:02):
comprehending the reason why,but when you dig under the
surface, like you have done withyour brothers, that there's so
many amazing moments of joy andlight and art and um, and, and
that sense of hope, which Ithink is really interesting.
So it's, it's, it's.
A novel that, um, to me wasn'ttrying to preach a particular
(39:23):
type of message.
It was just trying to show thatbeautiful community.
Like you said, people when youwalk down the street would give
you a high five and say helloand unlikely probably in
Brunswick to do, to do that.
No happening to be in Brunswick,that's for sure.
But you know, you've got thepassion of people who are.
Falling out what those, thosetypes of hardships.
(39:45):
But then at the same time,you've got others like the choir
master in your novel who, um,are championing those, those
messages of hope for, for abetter future.
Irma Gold (39:54):
Yeah, and I think, I mean, I think the novel asks the
reader to consider a series ofquestions, but there's no
answers because That's right.
It's such a complex situationthere and.
You know, there, there are noanswers.
But the other thing is as well,you know, life is, life is
complex.
So at the Melbourne launch,Catherine Collette asked me, so
(40:18):
she was interviewing me and, andshe asked, you know, is there
any point really, I can'tremember what the exact question
was, but basically is there anypoint to art in a world where we
just have so much going on and,you know, all of these terrible
things happening?
But in the context of shift, Ithink it's actually a really
pertinent question becausewithout.
How could you survive?
(40:39):
Know, it in Soweto there is somuch music and so much dance and
you know, the arts are just evenmore vital and important in a
place like that because withoutthat, there's no joy and.
I don't want people to have theidea that this novel is really
hard going because there is somuch joy in it.
That's right.
It it is a reflection of life.
(41:00):
And also the other thing issometimes I always want to talk
about Soweto'cause I'm obsessedwith it.
But the thing is, the book isreally about people and about
relationships.
And that's really what is at theheart of all of my writing, I
think is, is those relationshipsbetween people.
I.
Madeleine Cleary (41:16):
And finding that connection.
Yeah.
Even if it's in a place verydifferent to your own.
Yeah,
Irma Gold (41:22):
absolutely.
Madeleine Cleary (41:23):
Yeah.
Before we finish up, I wannatalk about your editing
experience because I feel likeyou've got some great advice to
give to emerging writers.
You, um, have over two decadesexperience as, um, in-house and
freelance editor.
You also help out writersindividually as well, preparing
(41:44):
for submissions to, um,publishers.
What do you think, is thereanything that stands out with
those manuscripts that youreview that goes, oh yes, this
is going to get published.
Is there anything common, or,or, or even if not, what advice
would you have to emergingwriters when making their
submissions?
I.
Irma Gold (42:04):
I don't think I can ever say this is going to get
published because it is so hardto get published and so many
amazing books do not getpublished, and so many terrible
books do get published.
So just because I have amanuscript that deserves to be
published on my desk, it doesnot mean that it will be
published.
(42:24):
And so I'm always very.
Cautious in in what I say, butthere are definitely many books
that deserve to be published.
That is for sure.
The one thing that they all havein common is a spark.
It's like the X factor, and thisis what any publisher is looking
for.
It's.
(42:44):
Something that's indefinable,which is very unhelpful.
But I think it comes from whenthe writer is writing about
something that they'repassionate about.
So like your novel has come outof something that you were
interested in about your ownfamily and that's driven you
wanting to find more and, and,you know.
Write that book.
(43:05):
And it's the same with me withSoweto.
Like I was always fascinatedwith that place.
And then there's so many otherthings in the book, you know,
like I've always lovedphotography and, you know,
playing on the different ways ofseeing.
And you know, the book is alsoabout art making and, you know,
some of the things we've beentalking about, you know,
self-doubt and the, the, thecreative process and all of
(43:26):
those things.
So they're all things that I'minterested in exploring and.
I think when you are passionateabout something and you
genuinely care about something,it carries with it a little
spark.
Madeleine Cleary (43:38):
Mm.
Irma Gold (43:38):
And and that is the thing that makes a manuscript
alive.
I.
So Charlotte Wood talks aboutwriting where the heat is.
I think that's such a good thingto remember because if you write
where the heat is, you'll alwayshave that spark.
And then the technical things,you know, you can have an editor
help you with those, but thespark has to be there.
(44:00):
An editor can't insert a sparkinto your work if it's not
there.
It's just not there.
Madeleine Cleary (44:06):
Yes.
So great advice.
And actually, I think it was anepisode that, uh, on your
podcast secret from the Greenroom, um, that Karen Viggers did
with Cate Kennedy.
And Kate said, you know, youshould.
Stands to your desk.
I love that concept.
Yeah.
That, that feeling of joy inyour writing find.
Yes.
And that's that again, thatheat, that spark that.
(44:26):
Well, that's the reason why wewanna write and explore.
Absolutely.
Your passion for Soweto hasdriven this beautiful novel.
So I think, yeah, I think that'swonderful advice.
And um, yeah, something that.
Unless it comes from you, it's,it's not gonna come from anybody
else.
Irma Gold (44:44):
That's right.
And you know, I've seenpublishers speak where they say,
you know, I didn't know that Iwas interested in a novel on X
until it landed on my desk.
Mm-hmm.
Because it's.
Because it's the way that it'swritten and if it comes from
that, you know, spark offascination and passion and
interest, then it will be aliveon the page.
(45:04):
And that is, that is the crucialthing.
Yeah.
All the other stuff you can workwith an editor to improve.
I obviously also do love booksthat are beautifully written.
And again, that is something, Imean, when you work with an
editor, they ta as you wouldknow, they take your work to the
next level.
Absolutely.
So they can't, they, they can'tmake it something it's not, but
(45:24):
they will help you get it to thenext level.
And so I love it when amanuscript arrives and I can see
the promise in the writing and Ican see the sparks there.
And you know, it's a good thingfor people to know when they're
submitting that you can tellthat from reading a paragraph.
You know, I, I, I work forpublishers as an editor and I
also work for individualauthors, and I'm very selective
(45:45):
about the individual authors whoI take on, uh, because I wanna
enjoy the work and if I enjoyit, I'm also gonna be able to
give, you know, really usefulfeedback.
And I can tell immediatelywithin that first paragraph if I
want to edit a book or not.
Madeleine Cleary (46:01):
Yeah.
How do you approach the editingof your own work?
Uh, well,
Irma Gold (46:06):
everybody needs an editor, me included.
I, I feel like you just, there'scertain, I do think working as
an editor, I'm thinking aboutstructure and plot and pacing
and characterization every day,working on people's books, and I
know that has made me a betterwriter.
I can't quantify it.
I can't, you know, make directlinks, but I know that.
(46:29):
I'm thinking about those thingsevery day.
So it has definitely, I think,made me a better writer, but I
still need an editor.
And in fact, you know, I'veworked with John, the brilliant
John Clanchy, who should bebetter known than he is'cause he
is, uh, just an unbelievablewriter.
Uh, I've worked with him on boththe breaking and shift and he.
(46:51):
Has helped me take both of thosebooks absolutely.
To the next level.
He's also made really hardcalls, like with Shift.
There was in, and I'd forgottenthis, this is how much the book
has moved on.
I opened up this old Irmail fromhim where I was like, oh, that's
right.
There was this whole othercharacter in the book who was a
major character who he said shehas got to go.
(47:11):
Mm-hmm.
And I remember it was reallyhard at the time.
I was like, ah, I know he isright, but it's just really hard
to do.
And I cut her out and as soon asI cut her out the book.
Just took flight.
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine Cleary (47:23):
So he
Irma Gold (47:23):
was absolutely right.
And I, I mean, I always know,you know, when the editor tells
you something That's right.
Even when it's hard and youthink, oh God, damnit, yeah.
Yep.
I knew
Madeleine Cleary (47:32):
that,
Irma Gold (47:33):
but I didn't wanna have to do it.
Uh, and with the breaking, likethe book is in three parts and
originally, so the whole book isset in Thailand, but originally
the third part, I brought thecharacters back to Australia and
I feel like I did that againsttheir will.
You know, when you feel likecharacters actually want you to
take them in a certaindirection, and if you don't let
(47:53):
them go where they wanna go, thebook becomes a dead thing.
It doesn't work.
And so that last part, it justlost pacing.
It lost energy, it lost itsspark.
Mm-hmm.
And when I gave it to John, hesaid, you know what?
How about you try just scrappingpart three and keeping it in
Thailand and as soon as Istarted writing that it had the
(48:15):
same energy.
It just flowed in a way, thepart three, the original part
three had not, and so.
You know that that's whathappens when you work with a
good editor.
So I need a good editor justlike everybody else.
Madeleine Cleary (48:28):
Okay, so you're not superhuman woman?
No.
Okay.
That's good to know.
That's good to, I can
Irma Gold (48:32):
pick what's wrong with other people's manuscripts
immediately, but then with myown, I'm like, oh my God, how
did I not see that?
Like that's the first thing Iwould've noticed in someone
else's book, but like in my own.
I don't necessarily see it.
You're so, yeah.
You're so, you're so deep in it.
Madeleine Cleary (48:49):
So true.
And it's almost feels like, Ithink you, as you go along, do
you feel like you get better atspotting when it is not
following the path that itshould and you are able to
retract?
Or do you feel like it'ssomething that you see with,
with hindsight?
Irma Gold (49:04):
I don't know.
I feel like I'm not necessarilygetting better at that.
I mean, I didn't have any majorwrong turns in shift, but I
wrote it quite differently tothe breaking, the breaking I
wrote from start to end.
And the shift I shift, I wrote,I.
In different pieces.
I shifted around as I waswriting
Madeleine Cleary (49:24):
it,
Irma Gold (49:24):
so I, I don't, but I did.
So I didn't have anything majorlike that with Shift, but I had
different problIrma's I feellike every book is its own
thing, and you have a differentset of problems with every book,
and I'm sure, maybe it'sCharlotte Wood, I can't remember
who said this, but it's like youlearn how to write that book, so
you go, oh, I know how to writethat book now.
It doesn't mean you know how towrite the next one.
Madeleine Cleary (49:48):
Okay.
Well this is really reassuringto me as I'm trying struggling
slash struggling to write booktwo.
So I am just like, should I beable to do this?
I've done one, but it's, it's,
Irma Gold (49:58):
no, it's different every time and I'm writing my.
Third novel, well, technicallymy fourth, if you count my novel
Zero, but my third novel, andit's a different structure to
the other two.
I mean, they both had adifferent structure to each
other, but this is even, evenmore vastly different.
And yeah, I don't know how to, Idon't know how to write that one
either.
(50:19):
I mean, I've got a completefirst draft, so I feel like
I've, you know, oh, good luck.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I've kind of.
Yeah, I've kind of, I've got it.
But I feel like there's a pointin every book where you're like,
I have no idea what I'm doing.
I don't know if this is gonnawork.
Like who knows?
Constant crises of confidence.
Madeleine Cleary (50:38):
But we're dancing to our desk, can't we?
Yes.
Irma Gold (50:40):
Oh, look, I love write.
I love writing more than I cansay.
It is such a joy.
I, I know some people say it'spainful to write, but it's more
painful not to write.
But I just love it.
And maybe that's because I'm nota full-time writer.
I have, I have to write aroundmy editing work, so I have very
limited time right now becauseI'm in promo mode for shift.
I have no time to write and Ihaven't for months.
(51:01):
Uh, but you know, I, so Iusually only have two hours,
maybe twice a week or threetimes a week if I'm lucky.
And so I just sit down, I'mlike, bang, that's it.
Capitalize on that
Madeleine Cleary (51:12):
time.
Irma Gold (51:12):
Yeah, absolutely.
And it's so great and I've gotmy coffee and I'm firing and I
love it.
And it's just, even when I'mrunning scenes that are really,
there's a.
Seen in shift, which is soemotional, and I still feel
emotional about it.
Madeleine Cleary (51:24):
But
Irma Gold (51:24):
even writing those scenes that are so emotional,
there's still, uh, thisbittersweet joy in the wr in the
actual writing, in the ideas andthe expression and the words.
I love, I love words on a page.
Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary (51:37):
Well, I think we can all tell, Irma you've got
such an amazing experience now.
You've given us so many, so manytop tips already, but um, as you
know, we always finish on one.
So Irma Gold, what is yournumber one top tip for emerging
writers?
I.
Irma Gold (51:54):
Oh look, it's gonna be one that other people have
said, but I, I, and I could havepicked something else, but I am
going to say read.
And the reason I'm going to saythat is because when I was
convener of editing at theUniversity of Canberra, I.
I remember having thisconversation with the convener
of the creative writing degreethat I've never forgotten, and
(52:15):
that year he had 300 studentsand he said of those 300, only
20 of them were actually avidreaders, and I found that so
shocking.
As someone who has grown upjust.
You know, living and breathingbooks and just reading
constantly.
I could not understand that.
(52:36):
Yeah, it's, isn't it, you
Madeleine Cleary (52:37):
think it's a given.
Irma Gold (52:39):
Yeah.
But you know, when I was talkingbefore about, you know, the fact
that I'm working on manuscriptsall the time and I'm.
Reading, and I'm thinking aboutstructure and all of those
things, but when you read books,you are absorbing all of those
things too.
Like you're learning withouteven knowing you are learning.
So you are, you are absorbingthings about structure and
characterization and, and pacingand plot and like all of those
(53:02):
things, they're just kind ofsubconsciously going in.
So.
I do think it is fundamentallythe most important thing for
writers to do, and I knoweveryone says it, but I also
know that a lot of people wantto be writers and they're not
doing it.
So that's why I'm saying itagain.
Madeleine Cleary (53:20):
So, okay.
That's Natasha lester actuallysaid the exact same thing.
That was her top tip too.
Irma Gold (53:24):
So Irma, so well,
Madeleine Cleary (53:25):
she's a good one to be, to be
Irma Gold (53:27):
in sync with.
She's amazing.
Madeleine Cleary (53:29):
That's right.
So we, here we go.
We've got Irma Gold, NatashaLester, two wonderful authors
telling everyone to read, and Iwould highly recommend everyone
go read Shift.
What an amazing segue.
I'm holding it up, even thoughour listeners can't see it.
I, yes.
Go and grab your self a copy andit's a masterclass, so read it
(53:50):
quickly like I did, and then gothrough and take your time.
It's a beautifully crafted book.
So Irma, thank you so much forjoining us in the Book Deal
podcast.
Thank you.
Irma Gold (53:58):
It has been an absolute joy.
I've loved it.
Thank you.
Thank you for listening to theBook Deal podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
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