Jessica Box on portfolio careers for creatives, coaching, growing your author business, content creation and social media

Episode Transcript
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Tina Strachan (00:09):
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will
discover the inspiring stories,the authors behind your favorite
books.
No matter what sage of writingyou are at, we've got you
covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one
deal at a time.

Madeleine Cleary (00:29):
The book Deal podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners, the land andwaters, which it's recorded on.
And pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging.
Jessica Box is an award-winninggrowth, executive leading
product, marketing, and insightsin plus$1 billion valued tech
companies.

(00:50):
She's the founder of Matched aknowledge sharing marketplace
with 250 plus vetted advisorsand coaches.
She successfully grew Link Treefrom 2 million to 45 million
customers and helped Slack,Optimizely, and Braintree launch
in Australia.
She's also driven change forwomen in tech as managing
Director of Girls in TechAustralia.
Jessica also happens to be mybest friend, and I could not be

(01:12):
a prouder friend.
See, how does Jessica'sexperience intersect with
writing?
Jessica and I have had longchats recently about the
business side of.
Being an author and what itmeans to wear many hats.
With Jessica's experience,growth, and creating authentic
connections in the businessworld, I felt it an imperative
to share her excellent advicewith other writers.

(01:33):
We chat about the role ofstorytelling, understanding your
why.
Social media and contentcreation, coaching, how to
manage your time while wearingmany hats, and how to understand
your own value proposition.
So make sure you time box thisepisode into your schedule
writers.
It's a great one.

(01:55):
Hello Jessica.
Hi Madeleine.
This is really exciting to haveyou on the podcast today.

Jessica Box (02:01):
I'm really excited to be here, long time listener
and follower of all the amazingpeople that have been on the
podcast.
It feels I've got a like slightimposter syndrome being here as
someone who is, um.
Not necessarily a publishedwriter or focusing on that at
the moment.

Wow.
Well, I mean, you are, you'vebeen to so many different book
events with me as well.
You're like my, my bookcompanion when we go to
different types of launches andevents.
And I feel like you're alreadypart of the writing community
and you are my best friend aswell.

And I, I have always been an avid reader.
Um, so does.
There's something about thestudy of books that I, I love
and yeah, I mean, I would loveto write a book one day.
So

do you remember when we first met?
Oh.
I dunno if I do.
Gee.
Wasn't very memorable.
I thought that it should be, butI remember actually, I remember
this very beautiful, tall,redhead girl walking down the
corridor in year seven and Ithought, oh, she's confident

(03:03):
she's going somewhere.
I wanna be her friend.
And so thank you for being myfriend.

Oh my God, that's so good.
I love that.
I do.
I do remember you.
I don't remember this specificmoment because you have the best
hair ever.
And I remember thinking, oh mygosh, how does she have the most
amazing hair?
And how do you like maintain itbecause it's so volumous and
luscious and lovely.
Lovely.
Um.

I

think we connected

over hair.
That's wonderful for those.
Um, you'll have to Google it ifyou're listening.
Um, Jess has the most beautifulred hair and we, we are always
very jealous of Jess's hair.
So I'm actually interested,Jess,'cause I mean, people were
probably wondering why, why is,um, why is Jessica Box on the
podcast and because obviouslyour.
Podcast is to help motivate,encourage, inspiring, aspiring

(03:51):
writers and debut writers.
Um, but we've had some reallygood chats in the last few
months, I think.
And you, you provide such goodadvice to me about, um, in, you
know, being not just an author,but I think being a, a business
owner and a sole trader and, andhow to present yourself and
building a profile because thathas been something that you've
been working on for so much inthe last few years.

(04:13):
Um, so I thought it would befantastic for you to come on and
really help, I suppose, otherwriters who are looking at
building, and this is somethingthat you've said, and I was
like, okay, we have to talkabout this.
Building a portfolio career,which is such an interesting
term.
Hmm.
Yes.
I guess going back to yearseven, like did you ever think
that.

(04:35):
Year seven Jessica Box would beable to, what would she think
about looking at your careernow, how many years after?
I actually don't wanna admit howmany years it's been since year
seven.
It's probably been 20.

Oh golly.
Yeah, it would've been far out.
Uh, I think it's, do you know, Idon't think she could have
conceptualized where I would betoday, um, at all.
And I remember, and you've hadthe fortunate opportunity of
doing this, but I went back toAvalara, our high school, um, to
speak to the year eights andyear nines, and it made me
really think about.

(05:09):
What I needed to hear at thatpoint in my, um, schooling
journey to really think aboutnot just, you know, the outcome
of a specific career title perse, but the things that really l
lit me up and, and my fire andlike kind of following passions
rather than just following likesome form of, you know, I wanna
be a teacher or I wanna be adoctor, et cetera.

(05:31):
And I think back to, um, ourcareer guidance counselor, I
remember.
Sitting in his room like sovividly him looking at my
subjects and going, oh, okay, soyou've got like science and like
methods maths and like I did,you know, biology, chemistry,
methods, maths.
Oh, but you also have like dramaand literature.
Um, well, so obviously you haveto be a doctor or a lawyer and I

(05:54):
just, I remember sitting theregoing, I didn't really know how
to respond because neither ofthose resonated me.
I didn't with me, and I didn'treally know what other options
there were.
What's really interesting nowreflecting on, you know, if you
were to see those on paper, um,it's the perfect synergy for
someone who goes into techbecause mm-hmm.
The, the creative like, um, uh,you know, right brain side, but

(06:16):
also with the left brain kind ofanalytical, strategic thinking,
you know, problem solving, um,toolkit.
And so I think if I was to.
Like say something to my13-year-old self, it would be
just back your instincts.
Because my instincts werescreaming at me at the time
that, oh, none of this is right.
And I remember before, um, uh,the final day when, um, uni

(06:38):
selections were due, I had, um,uh, physiotherapy as what I was
gonna do up until I rememberthat

Nobody (06:46):
I.

You, you are a creative at heart, Jess.
You've always been creative.
You've, um, you're, you're anexcellent writer yourself.
I remember reading your creativepieces in, in year 12 Lit.
Um, your, uh, we were bothmassive drama nerds.
Um, in year 12.
Um, we were part of a very smallgroup of drama students, um, and
we loved it, and that's where wereally bonded.

(07:15):
And so I think, and you'vereally.
Brought that creativity to theroles that you've done
throughout your entire careerand now as the CEO, um, and
co-founder of Matched as well.
Um, because I think performthere is, there is a performance
element in everything that youdo.
Mm-hmm.
And it's definitely somethingthat writers have to think about
as well.
Like, I know you, 12 drama forme has held me in really good

(07:37):
stead.

Yeah.
Yeah, it's, I feel like it's,um, knowing how to tell a really
good story.
I think it sets you in goodstead regardless of what career
you're in, whether it's aboutyourself or whether it's about a
company.
So, mm, I really like my wholecareer has been at the
intersection of what I would sayis tech and, um, impact.
And I really have centered a lotof my decisions around what I
want do and like where I wannaspend my time on how can I leave

(08:01):
the world a better place.
And I think there's so much of.
Tech that is unknown when you'renot deep working with engineers
and product designers and allthese things that, you know, I
have the pleasure of workingwith every day, but all the
decisions that I've made acrossmy career have been, how can I
do that?
And I think such an importantpart of that is, you know, uh,
being able to communicate thestory behind the why.

(08:23):
And so, um, I think when I firststarted my career, I didn't
really.
There's this concept called theFive Whys, um, by Simon Sinek.
And, um, basically it takes youlike one layer deeper each time,
so you get to the real heart of,of the.
True why?
And so when we were buildingMatch, we started with, oh,
we're gonna build like a, a techproduct that helps people

(08:43):
connect, which at the surfacelevel it's like, okay, cool,
what this does nothing for.
Um, and then you go a layerdeeper and it's like, oh, why
are people connecting?
Oh, it's because they, you know,wanna be able to try, try and
find true, meaningful, um, uh,authentic.
Um, purpose led conversationswith others and learn from each
other, et cetera.
And then it's like, okay, why dothey wanna do that?

(09:04):
Um, oh, it's because it's reallyhard to get access to the right
type of information, all theright people, because, um, it's
such a privileged opportunity tobe able to connect with
different people.
And then the final ways, youknow, um, you wanna unlock
knowledge that you have neverhad.
So.
I get, and I'm saying thisbecause obviously as writers and
everyone listening, so much ofhow you tell stories is, is

(09:26):
getting to the heart of the, thetrue why rather than the on the
surface.
And I think, um, the journey tofounding match and kind of how,
how we got to the true why, andI've always wanted to be an
entrepreneur and start my ownbusiness.
I've always dabbled in startingthings myself, but this was the
true.
The first time that I had anidea that I put in my phone that
screamed at me on a Sundaymorning, and I just, it poured

(09:48):
outta me and I went and I got tothe why straight away.
And I knew that it would besomething that would motivate
me, um, for many years to come.
So I say that because it's likeI had to find the story that
connected with me the most, um,in order to start a business.
And I think us sharing thatstory for Match with, um, the
world is, is allowing us toreally create a amazing

(10:09):
community.
So.
Anyway.

That's so interesting.
I'm, I wanna take that away.
'cause I think that oftenwriters to put things into
perspective because, you know,there's, um, it's a really tough
industry, the creative industryand, and often getting to the
heart of why we do what we do.
It holds us in really goodstead.

(10:32):
It builds resilience, I think,and it makes us truly understand
our purpose and what we'recontributing to.
Mm.
And so I think applying thoughthat sort of layered why, why
are we doing it?
Why do we write, oh, well, weenjoy it, but why?
Why, why?
I think that's really helpfulbecause there is so much
rejection and um mm-hmm.

(10:53):
You know, even if you'vepublished a novel, if it's not
considered a bestseller and it,you, you're, you, you get like,
you know, a solid four weeks outin publicity and then some
things and it, you feel a littlebit flat.
But I think being able to tellthat and craft that narrative, I
think is really, reallyimportant.
And yes, storytelling is really,really important as well.

(11:14):
In building your brand and, andthat people talk about this in,
in the author world about havingan authentic brand, and it's
often really hard to understandwhat that is.

Yeah, and it helps, I think the, the depth of the
why helps you weather thestorms.
Like I would say, there's beenso many times where I went,
okay, I am not cut out for this.
I'm gonna give up.
Um, and anchoring on that is itgives you a higher purpose or a
higher order thinking.
Um, and like, you know, rider,you've got your own, you are
your own business, like you arethe business.

(11:44):
Mm-hmm.
Um, so to think about it in thatway, but take it a layer deeper
into the true purpose.
As you say, will connect youmore, um, strongly to the why,
but then also like to help youweather all of the, um,
challenges, because of course,everyone always has challenges
and setbacks.

Mm-hmm.
So in terms of your career,'cause you've all, you were
saying that tech is the perfectfit for you.
Was that when you, when you weredoing your performing arts
degree, was that a natural thingfor you to fall into tech or did
it take some time?

It definitely took time and I think I, and I, I'm a
big fan of not saying that I,people are lucky.
I think luck is, um, not, it.
I think you work really hard andthen you create opportunities
that, um, you know, younaturally attract because of
hard work.
Like, I worked, I worked really,really, really hard.
Um, and then I think I said yesto a lot of opportunities.

(12:40):
And so when I was in performingoutside, I mean, this was like,
you know, at the start of.
The iPhone coming out.
I was always the person that hadlike the latest tech you were.
Um, and I was draw, I was drawnto, I think it's just like the
way it connected people, um, andthe opportunities that you had
to access information.
Which is funny because Match iswhole purposes around around
that now, really.

(13:00):
Um, uh, and yeah, I think I justalso, like, I, you know, I did.
Masters, which you pushed me todo.
Um,'cause I finished performingarts and I was really lost and I
kind of went, you know, I lovethis part of storytelling, but
I'm super analytical that my dadis a, a very like, um, uh,
analytical person.
My mom's a creative.
And so I'm the intersection oftwo of those people.
And I'd lent so heavily into mycreative side for so long.

(13:23):
Um, I danced for 20 years.
There was just like so much ofthat.
Um, and then I lent.
I started to lean a little bitmore into my analytical side and
I realized that I really lovedit.
Um, and the intersection of thetwo is tech.
So, um, I like formally, uh, mykind of area of expertise, um,
in tech is growth, which is, um.

(13:44):
Effectively, how do you help acompany access and, um, serve
really specific subset ofcustomers, um, which obviously
lots of writers need to do, um,as you are picking their,
picking, you know, um, yourgenre, and then also
specifically the, um, you know,target audience because you
can't hit everyone with Yes.
What you're writing.

So, so that's so interesting, Jess, because,
um, as creatives.
We often don't think about thesetypes of business side of being
an author and the business sidedoesn't, isn't necessarily
something that comes verynaturally to authors,
particularly because a lot ofauthors are quite introverted.
Um, our preference is to stayhome and.

(14:26):
Be on our couch or on our studyor wherever we write, huddled in
our words.
And then suddenly we are meantto have a profile We are meant
to look at, you know, um,pushing our work and
communicating and connecting andattending events and building
something that's meaningful andauthentic, whatever that means.
So what advice would you sayabout how you, how we grow, um,

(14:49):
our business as authors?

I think it has to be anchored in, um, the
authenticity, right?
I think even more so now.
So growth as a discipline for along time was like paid
advertising, looking at data andgoing, okay, how do you like
target a specific subset ofcustomers with a message?
Yeah.
And also

with no money as well.
Yeah.

Which you can do that.
Uh, but do you know.
Um, changing and I, my mostrecent executive role, um,
before starting Match was at treand I was the first, um,
leadership hire outside of thefounders.
So it was a wild time.
The company had no, like, wasstarting to generate revenue,
but hadn't TA taken on what Iwould call like venture capital
funding, which then acceleratesgrowth.
So I had gone through this stageof like just throwing a lot of

(15:32):
money at, um, bringing incustomers, which is really
interesting.
Obviously it works, but what'shappening now in a world of AI
is, um.
All of the existing channels arebreaking.
What's been really interestinglately is, um, there's reports
coming out of like businessesand companies spending 70% less
on their paid advertising in thelast quarter alone, um, because

(15:53):
it's not working.
So, um, and I say that becauseas writers, like you are
generating content.
Um, not only, I mean obviouslyyou're creating, um, uh, amazing
whether it's manuscripts orpublishing novels, but then you
have this extra layer where youneed to create content to share
Yeah.
Your amazing manuscripts andnovels.
And so at TRE we worked reallyclosely with creators, but from

(16:16):
all different varying areas, um,whether that.
Musicians who, you know, createdmusic and then trying to
disseminate, um, whether it isactual, you know, artists like,
um, you know, fine artists whoare then kind of, um, you know,
publishing and, um, sharingtheir art online and then, you
know, um, doing some, you know,different versions of how they,
um, you know, tailor specific,um, pieces to their audience.

(16:37):
But the reason I say that isprobably breaking it down into
two parts.
Like you've got your craft thatyou.
I'm so passionate about that youwanna spend all your time on,
um, uh, but then you have thiswhole other thing is like you
need to then communicate withothers to sell and like be able
to, um, generate revenue off theback of your art.
And I think that tension isreally, really strong because I

(16:58):
would imagine you'd wanna spendmost of your time just writing
and, but then it's so criticalto be able to, um.
Build a business around yourselfthat is authentic to you.
So my, my tip is like, get tothe heart of like the, the
values of what makes you, you,like you, I mean you, you know
how to write and structure areally good story, but there's
this kind of concept of yourpersonal value proposition.

(17:21):
So what is your value that yougenerate?
Like you, for example, youobviously, um, have published
your first, um, book this year.
Um, but you've spent so muchtime prior to that.
Um.
Like thinking through, okay, Iam an historical fiction writer.
This is the area that I wanna beknown for.
How do I spread the message outof me as a historical fiction

(17:42):
writer?
And then naturally, when youpublish a book, it fits within
that view of you.
Mm-hmm.
And so I think what people don'tdo well is.
Think about being reallydeliberate around who they are
and what they wanna be knownfor.
Um, and then testing that.
So doing, you know, it gettingreally granular here.
Oh no, we love this.
This is so good.

Nobody (18:00):
This is so helpful.

Getting really granular, but like piece to
camera.
So everyone loves, there's thislike, shift, getting back to the
AI piece.
Yeah.
Um, is there's this real shiftof, um, towards authenticity and
trust.
I think trust in particularbecause we're flooded with
synthetic content where, um,people are.
Using AI to create things.
And you can tell, like it's,it's very obvious.

Yeah.
And I'm, I'm finding that in myfeed where things just don't
look right and then you, youstart to doubt.
You're like, wait, is this AI oris this a real person?

Yeah, absolutely.
And it's, and so that, thishappened recently, I saw Janine
Alice, who's the founder ofBoost.
Um.
Juice.
Yes.
Um, drinks.
She, um, shared a piece tocamera saying, I've started to
see my own face pop up in myfeed, and it's not me.
Um, I am communicating with allof you to let you know that
these channels are my onlychannels that I put myself on.

(18:52):
So as people have influence, um,start to be kind of used in a,
like, you know, whether it'schat JPT or Claude or whatever
platform, um, that expands outinto, I mean, it's already there
in terms of.
You know, name, image likenessis what I would call this, where
people can take that and then gointo chat gpt chat chat GPT and
say, oh, create me a piece ofcontent like Janine Dallas

(19:13):
would, and with Janine Alice'sface.
And then it spits it out and sofrightening.
It is, it's quite frightening.
Um, and the reason I say this isbecause it's so important that,
um, people.
People are connecting withauthentic content right now.
And the trust piece is, um, soimportant.
So this like in-person events,in-person connection.
Mm-hmm.
I think we're gonna see a bigflock back to that because

(19:35):
there's this level of trust.
So if you're investing in anyarea, it's like your piece to
camera, like you as a persontalking, which is really hard.
I, I mean, I personally strugglewith, so I, I find I have to
like work myself up to it.
And my co-founder, Susan and I,we've started this like, we're
actually doing like quasipodcast.
Style.
Um, in person sessions where wetalk to each other and then we

(19:57):
turn them into little videosbecause

Oh, that's much, much better.
That's actually better.
'cause I find it really dif, I,I actually don't do it that,
what do you call it?
Piece, what is it?
Piece to

camera.
Piece to camera.
So you talk to the camera, butyou talk to each other.
So like we doing, but we sit infront of each other and then we
have two cameras, one facing.
Each, each other.
Mm-hmm.
Then we talk to each other soit's more authentic.
It's like this, but then youstitch it together and there's
like tools we call, use aplatform called V that mm-hmm.
Um, basically, well this is thegood part of ai.
It like takes our content andpulls out the best snippets, um,

(20:27):
into like one or two minutebites.
Um, so anyway, that, all of thatis to say, I think there's this
giant shift happening and thenthis concept of like.
We're talking about profile, butreally it's a brand.
Um, uh, in our world, what'shappening right now is everyone
is investing really heavily inbrands, um, like tech companies.
It's the, the thing that youown.
Because so much of what'schanging is like, you actually

(20:49):
don't own that all that much.
Like you don't own your audienceif you're paying for it from
Meta or Instagram or et cetera.
Um, but your brand is somethingthat you own and you can
communicate the message and, youknow, the investment is, you
know, starting to pay off forpeople who do that.

That's so interesting.
I didn't actually really thinkabout that.
That you don't own your, own,your audience.
If your audience is purely onInstagram or TikTok.
Yeah,

Nobody (21:13):
because

it's, it's, you are using a platform and
they are on a platform.

Nobody (21:17):
Yeah.
But,

but if you are out and about in events, if you
are attending and people areturning up for you, reading your
book, consuming your content,providing feedback to you,
that's different.
Like you, you do own that more,I think.

Absolutely, and like newsletters and things like
that, like I really push peopleto do that because you've got
email addresses, you've gotlike, you can actually
communicate directly.
Whereas in a social sense,you're also beholden to the
algorithm.
So like, I think there'ssomething like, at the moment,
only 10 to 20% of your audience.
Who actually follow you will seeyour content.
So even then, it's like a lowerpercentage.
Um, and I've got a very funnystory about owning audience.

(21:54):
When I was at Ree, um, and itwas uh, super Bowl Sunday in the
us Uh, we all got up on Monday,um, morning, and Elon Musk was,
had just taken over Twitter, um,and.
He, uh, Twitter had shut downaccess to Link Tree on, um, all
on on Twitter, full stop.
No one could click out to a linktree link at all.

(22:17):
Um, and so all of our creatorslike flooded.
Um, well now called X.
Still Twitter to me, but, um,uh, saying, you know, what's
happening?
Um, blah, blah, blah.
And there was this likepublished piece, like in, you
know, ts and Cs have beenupdated on, um, Twitter.
Um, you know, these types ofexternal links are not allowed
anymore.

(22:38):
Um, and so we all like, even aninstant there goes your whole
modus operandi, right?
It wasn't even Link Tree, it wasmore the creators, like all
their audience.
They couldn't ca uh, you know,um, access their audience.
Um, and so we had this, likethis Monday morning in the US
Sunday night, um, Monday morningin Australia, Sunday.
Um, super Bowl like Elon Musk isat the Super Bowl.

(22:58):
Um, and, um, we all get on thiscrisis call and then we realize
quite quickly that it's gonnabe.
Overturned, right.
Um, and you could just like,from a legal perspective, we had
a general counselor who wassuper amazing, got on the call
and basically said, yeah, no,it's gonna get overturned.
So what we actually did, andthis is a good lesson in like
capturing moments, um, we went,okay, so we've got like high

(23:18):
volumes of traffic coming toLink Tree, the website.
To see what's going on becauseit's everywhere.
Mm.
Um, and how do we kind of like,own a really interesting
narrative or voice within all ofthis?
And so Alex, the CEO of BlinkTree, um, has a Tesla.
And so, um, I was on a call andI said, how about we like get
cheeky and actually just say,um, don't make me sell my Tesla

(23:40):
at Elon Musk and.
And that was what he did, and itended up on the, uh, like a
headline in the Sydney MorningHerald and a whole bunch of
stuff.
Um, so I say this because likethe owning the audience piece is
like, it's so volatile, but thenyou can also, like, there's ways
to kind of be creative thatgenerate a lot of like, interest
in those moments as well.
So,

well, it reminds me of when, um.
Um, I can't remember if it, wasit Donald Trump that just
closed?
Well, no, it wasn't DonaldTrump.
It wasn't the TikTok got bannedin the US for last four days or
something.
Yeah.
And then Donald Trump said hewould overturn it.
I think if he was elected

the us like all the, all the execs in the US
have this big sweeping, likewe'll just knock everything out.
And then they, and it'sobviously some, a lot of it's
share price.
Um, but some of it, yeah.

But isn't it amazing that TikTok could just
turn off their, their, you know,creators in the US for that?
Oh, was it global or No, I thinkit was just in the us, wasn't
it?
Yeah.
And then suddenly all thesepeople on their platform is gone
and, and it goes dark and youknow, you don't, you don't have
that control.
Um, but you're right, everyonesays that.

(24:45):
Um.
Newsletters and substack arereally good, like creating that.
I just find, um, it's reallyhard because, and this is
something I really wanted totalk to you about.
He's trying to balance where youput your energies into.

Nobody (24:57):
Yeah.

cause you know, you, you do have so many
different priorities and oftenfor me, my substack goes to the
lowest.
Yeah.
And so perhaps this is like agood idea that maybe to move
towards, like talking aboutcreating a portfolio career and,
Hmm.
One that's sustainable.
Yeah, I think sustainable isprobably one of the key words.

(25:20):
Um, yeah, because, and I'llactually maybe tell us a little
bit about what, what the conceptis and then we can have that
chat.

Yeah.
So, um, I would describeportfolio career as.
Having a collection of thingsthat you are passionate about
and being able to monetize, um,from multiple of them.
So typically you would thinkabout full-time job as where you
get your money.
Mm-hmm.
Um, what is changing is, um,people, while people are looking

(25:48):
for more optionality, uh, inwhere they generate their income
from, but they're also leaningmore heavily into purpose.
So obviously.
Um, lots of writers and emergingwriters listening to this like
you are, I would imagine you'revery passionate about your
writing, but you also areprobably in a job that sustains
your life, um, or, you know,pays bills.
And I think the concept ofportfolio career is breaking

(26:11):
that down into, okay, um, how doI have a collection of things
that I'm passionate about andalso brings in.
Uh, income that I can capturevalue from is, is effectively
what I would call that.
So I've always been, and thenthere's another funny word for
this that I would call aslasher.
So as in like, I am a CEO slasha co-founder slash an advisor

(26:33):
slash a board director slash awife slash um, a dog mom to my
dog whiskey.
Um, and, and the whole conceptof that is, um, being able to
put.
It, put all the things out thereand I have my coach, um, we call
these, um, wearing the hats.
And so I have like a, you know,a bucket for each of my
different hats and the energythat I want to, um, kind of put

(26:55):
into, into each.
And I think what happens is whenyou start building out something
like this concept conceptuallyas a portfolio career, it can be
really overwhelming because youthink that you have to give
equal energy to all the things,um, which is just not, yes,
that's what I'm finding.
It's really tough

one.
'cause I mean, for writers wealso wear many hats.
We are.
The author.
Yeah.
And like you said, we've got theday job, but we also do other
things like we might do, like atthe moment it's book week is on.
So yeah.
A lot of authors are out inschools.
They're doing running workshops.
Um, we do library events, we dospeaking events and keynotes.
We are attend writers festivals.

(27:32):
Um, we run podcasts, we mm-hmm.
You know, so we, we do have lotsof hats.
Um, and.
And it is, I think, yeah, ifyou've got any tips on how you
like Yeah.
How do you avoid burnout?

Yeah, so I've got, I've got two things that I've,
I'm, and I will say I'm notalways good at this.
Like, I, I think it, it, there'speriods of time, like probably
right now I'm flying to Europeon Sunday and, and I've struck,
I've structured exactly how I'mgonna operate the three and a
half weeks so that I getdowntime.
So there's seven days where I'mgonna be fully offline Anyway,

(28:06):
this is like a good lead intoone of the, um.
Pieces, which is time boxing.
Mm-hmm.
I think being really specific,and this is a, like I talk, I,
and I, I'll get really detailedon this'cause I take it to the
extreme.
My calendar, yes.
My calendar is like a series oftime boxes.
So when I've got a task that Ineed to, I think there's this
like, um.
Theory that like you, if you, ifyou don't time box, you'll just

(28:29):
let it fill as much time as isallocated.
Whereas if you put in like say ahalf an hour, I'm gonna spend
half an hour on that, thatspecific time, then you either
like, it gives you the correctwaiting for an item.
So I'll give you an example thatliterally after this I've got
two one hour time blocks, um,for things that I need to do.
One of them is like just kind ofwrapping up and making sure I
send out like all my last, um.

(28:51):
Emails before I head off, andthen I've gotta review a
specific document for a companythat I advise.
And so if I like didn't put say45 minutes in, I could just end
up spending three hours on it.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so it also from acognitive load perspective means
I don't have to keep creatingto-do lists.
So I just like map it all out atthe start of the week and I go,
yep.
So that's my time boxing there.

(29:12):
Um, I will say it's like sostructured.
Um, and so I'm, my thing is.
Where I need rest or like areset.
My thing about travel is thatit's the total opposite.
So I love like spending timetotally unstructured'cause I'm
so structured in, um, like, youknow, day to day.

Jess, you've just changed my life, I think.
This is actually so useful andhelpful.
I am boxing because I'm justsitting here going, oh my God,
this is gonna change everythingfor me.
Because I think the problem, andparticularly for me and probably
for other writers, is thatanything that takes us away from

(29:52):
the writing, I feel incrediblyguilty about.

Nobody (29:56):
Yeah.

And so, and I feel, and I beat myself up about
it.
However, if you put scheduledtime in your week or over the
next, or over a couple of weeksand say, okay, I'm going to,
like, I need to set aside timeto read a book and prepare for
an author interview.
Mm.
This is the allocated time thatI'm gonna do, do it in.

(30:17):
Yeah.
And, and that's, and that's.
Set and done, and I'm not gonnafeel guilty if I can't do the
writing around that becauseyou've gone in and you've
allocated it.
Yeah.
Like I think that's super, superhelpful.
And I also think that you areright about, if you don't
allocate time to a task, you canjust absolutely fill whatever
time you have.
Mm.
I find that with writing, thisis something Tina, my co-host

(30:39):
has said that.
She has a block.
She has a one hour block in themorning for her writing.
Mm.
And she'll smash her writing.
She will not do anything else.
That's all she'll focus on.
And I've started to employ thatbecause I found with my writing,
I would just, if I had three orfour hours, I would just kind of
pick up other things and notfocus.

(30:59):
Mm.
But if you do it in like blocksand chunks, I think it's so much
better and better for yourfocus.

That's it.
I was about to say, andsomething that you were touching
on there is, it's like once it'sin there, then you don't have to
think about it.
Mm-hmm.
Because there's something to besaid about ju like the juggle of
all the balls.
If all the balls are in the air,then you, you're thinking about
'em all at the same time, ratherthan going, okay.
I know that say on a Friday,every Friday I have one hour

(31:25):
block where I think about socialmedia and then I spend, I
schedule my content and then I'mdone.
Mm-hmm.
And or you have like a one hourblock where you shoot your
content and then those types ofthings.
Um, because particularly whenit's things that like don't give
you the same energy, you wannamake sure that you're not just
like, to your point, feelingguilty about like doing other
things, but it's all got aspecific time.

(31:47):
The other part is like notpretending like you shouldn't be
doing it, because I think, Ithink you can give yourself your
internal monologue where it'slike, oh, but like, no, I don't
need to do that.
But you actually do.
So allocating the time meansthat.
You know, it's got a time and aspace for it to exist, rather
than you feeling like, oh, wellno, I shouldn't be doing that.

Holly Cardamone (32:11):
Hello, my name is Holly Cardamone and I am so
excited to speak to you about myupcoming debut novel.
Summer in Between.
Summer In Between is a youngadult contemporary novel about a
firecracker, bookworm andneander little surfer, and one
unforgettable summer.
So imagine if looking for EllieBrandy and puberty blues had a
book, baby, that's my novel, butin a little more detail.

(32:32):
It's New Year's Day, and Kat is17 and lives in Baters Cove, a
small beach town, 90 minutesfrom the city.
It's a town where testosteronemixes freely with casual and
overt racism, and she honestlycannot wait to get out.
Now, Kat has a chaotic, noisyfamily, including an imposing
interfering nonna, twoboisterous younger brothers and
parents who are continuallyflirty with each other to the

(32:54):
point of get a room.
She has friends that she adores,but they're scattered hundreds
of kilometers apart and her onlycontact with them for the summer
is online.
Kat is obsessed with herupcoming year 12 studies.
She believes that they'll makeor break her future.
She honestly sees that the marksthat she gets at the end of year
12 will be her ticket out oftown.
So she has a plan and that's tostudy hard, get into university

(33:17):
and get out of bat's Cove.
And part of her plan is to avoidthe local Neanderthals, the
surfers who take over the beach,including their king Paul, light
wood, who is the hottest of thehot.
Paul is someone who's been oncat's periphery for years.
He can eat fur without a splash.
He loves music and makingplaylists, and he's had his own
hopes and dreams thwarted.

(33:38):
Everyone loves Paul except forKat.
She's completely immune to hischarms and she thinks he'd have
a crack at a stop sign for.
Looked at him the right way.
So summer's becoming veryinteresting and confusing when
Paul starts working for cat'sDad, a cat's house for the
entire summer.
So throw in a beach party or twonight markets.
Gelato cliff jumping into theocean.

(33:59):
And we have somewhere inbetween.
Thank you so much Madeleine andTina for the opportunity to chat
to you.

This is so good.
I'm going to implement, I'm soexcited about this.
This is gonna change everythingand this is much more healthy, I
think.
And I guess you do have toallocate time to, to.
Time box.
Right?
Like you do have to put in theeffort to do that as well.

Yeah.
My favorite time to do that ison a Monday morning.
So I do some of it on Sunday,but I'm pre, I'm like a, I'm
very rigorous calendar personand I have, there's another hot
tip, um, color coding, um,brings me joy that it makes my
husband fearful when he looks atmy calendar.
But I feel like everything's gotits place.
So, and so I have all mypersonal things in there.

(34:47):
And then each of my likeadvisory things like matches.
You know, orange.
Oh, I can send you a screenshotof what it looks like, but it's,
it's all got different colors.
Um, and it's helpful to mebecause then when I look at my
calendar at a glance, I can seelike where I'm allocating my
time.
And if I've got too muchadvisory on one day, I can tell
my brain's gonna context switchtoo much.
And so then I go, oh, well Ineed, I can't do that today.

(35:08):
I'll move it to another day.

Oh, this is brilliant.
I love this.
I'm gonna,

I'm so excited.
Okay.
This is great for type A people.

It's so, so good.
And, um.
I just, I I think you are, uh,spot on or too about allocating
time for social media content.
'cause social media, I know wejust, we touched on it just
before, but I, I think it's goodto come back to it.
Um,'cause it is like a, that'sanother hat that authors have to
wear and not necessarily onethat we're really good at.
Mm.

(35:38):
So I guess if you've got anytips about.
What can we, what can we do?
And we were just talking beforeabout how we might be flipping
back to more of thatface-to-face in-person stuff,
but I still think it's gonnaplay a role in future

Nobody (35:52):
Yeah.
For

creatives as well.
So do you have any tips about,maybe it's coming back to what
you were saying earlier aboutlooking at the whys as well,
like looking at why we do it.

Nobody (36:03):
Um,

are we doing it to try and sell books?
'cause it's probably not.
Very good to sell books, but youknow, is it to build connection?
So how do we, how do authors getjoy from social media?
How do we create boundariesaround social media and what,
yeah, what tips do you have forus?

Yes.
So I think eight is connected tothe five why's.
And I would say my number onething is to find your unique
voice.
Um, and I feel like that wouldresonate really well with
writers.
'cause it's like you've gottafind your writing voice.
Yes.
But you also have to find yourunique social media voice and
it, this one needs to be at theintersection of what you'd love
and what people wanna hear.

(36:45):
What I mean, I've never heard

that before.
That's so good.

Yeah.
So what you love, but.
Is obviously if you just talkabout what you love, then you
know, you may not find the rightaudience, you might not care.
Yeah.
But the second part is like,people act, what do people
actually want to hear about?
Um, and you know, I would sayif, if I was picking, and
there's two parts to this, it'slike you can't picking a channel

(37:08):
to start with.
Like just pick one, don't tryand do everything.
Mm-hmm.
Pick one that you're gonna focuson.
And then, you know, there's thisconcept of habit stacking where
you repeat the habit and you.
Kind of bundle it in with otherthings.
So if you're like writing at theend of writing, maybe you like
wanna do a reflection on howthat session went and then you
share that publicly as anexample.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and I would recommend, ifyou're gonna pick one, would be

(37:32):
TikTok.
Um, because there's so muchopportunity for authentic
content, it's also growingrapidly.
You can also share your tiktokson Instagram and it still does
quite well.
So that type of content.
The kind of piece to camera thatI was talking about where you
talk at the camera, um, iswhat's resonating really
strongly.
Mm-hmm.
So, um, and I think, you know,not everyone is gonna be

(37:55):
comfortable with that because,um, you know, it takes a little
bit of time to be able to feelcomfortable.
But I would say starting withlike the interview piece, so
find someone who is maybe awriter that is going on the same
journey as you.
And just have a, have a yap,have a conversation with each
other and record it and see howit goes.
Um.
And yeah, I think TikTok inparticular, I mean, you know,

(38:17):
book talk in general is likesuch a big area, um, that people
are, are resonating with.
I, I feel like this year hasbeen the biggest book week in
Australia.
I think there's so muchhappening from a connectedness
to, like, storytelling at themoment that, um, finding your
unique voice in that.
Um, and then the specificaudience that people wanna hear.

(38:38):
I feel like that's a nice way tothink about you're actually
generating value for people likeyou are.
People want to listen to yourather than it just being, I'm
selling my book, it, think aboutit like, okay, it's, it's almost
like, and this is like very, um,marketing type structures, but
it's like a funnel.
It is a funnel is conceptually afunnel.
So you've got your audience atthe top, they're like unaware of
you, they don't know you.

(38:59):
Um, and then as you.
Like they typically people needto hear from you about between
four to five times to then knowwho you are.
And so the repetition is superimportant.
Um, and the consistency.
So finding something that youwanna talk about that you can be
consistent with, and thenhitting the same message a few
times means that then people aregonna connect with you.
Um, and so I think.

(39:21):
Yeah, really allocating the timeto just think about the purpose
and the like, getting connectedto what you're gonna say and
taking it away from just sellingbooks because people are gonna
buy your books if they'reconnecting with you and telling,
uh, and um, hearing from you.
Like you would, you would knowthis from all the events that
you've done and you share thestory and then everyone's like,
okay, I'm gonna, I wanna readthe book.
'cause the story is so amazing.
That's the way to think aboutthis.

(39:44):
Like, don't think about it aslike, oh, I've just got it.
Do this post,'cause it's gonnasell me like five books.
Think about it as I've got astory to share, um, and I'm
gonna share it.
And then the outcome from thatis naturally, obviously books
get sold.

I'm not sure, Jess, if you can see my soul
dying.

Yeah, I, I know that I've told you to go on
TikTok before and you have notwanted to do that, but it is,
it's definitely the one, I thinkit's, I think it's more
authentic than Instagram aswell.
Instagram's become very, sofirst Facebook was very
businessy and then everyone wentto Instagram to become like, be
all personal and then.
Um, Instagram started to becomebusinessy and everyone wanted
TikTok to be all personal.

(40:26):
So we're going through thisjourney of like, each channel is
kind of changing.
Um, chat.
GPT is gonna be the next one.
Um,

oh, like as in community, in connection on
chat, GPT,

it'll be the next, what I would call distribution
channel.
So how people, um, find you.
How, how will that work?
I mean, so 70 700 million peopleare using chat GPT per week.

Geez, that's insane.

They haven't done this yet.
Like this is what, like, so inmy, in my tech circles, we're in
very big in an echo chamber atthe moment.
Um, but yeah, so the way thatInstagram and TikTok emerged,
um, as channels, um, there's asimilar pattern happening with
chat GPT where they didn't necthey're not gonna, it's
obviously not gonna be a socialmedia channel, um, in the same
way, but.

(41:13):
Um, each person is individuallybrowsing, um, more akin to a
Google I would say, um, than a,um, than a Instagram or TikTok.

That, that kind of slightly frighten
frightens me.
'cause I know how much AIhallucinate answers and
responses.
So it's almost like thatmisinformation is really, really
frightening.
I actually, you know how youGoogle stuff and it comes up
automatically with the AIresponse.
I ignore it because I just findthat a lot of the times it's
wrong.

It is.
I, I agree with you and I think,I think Google's not, we can get
all technical, but Google's nottrained on the same level of
data that chat GT is.
So chat GT is holding thingsback deliberately to get to a
certain level from a techperspective.
Then when they're there, I thinkthey'll become like akin to an
apple, um, where they launchapps and have.

(42:05):
A marketplace where companiescan build on top of chat GBT, so
mm-hmm.
Anyway, this is so

interesting.
Um, I've actually had quite afew chats about, um, the future
I suppose, of creatingconnections.
'cause I guess what we'retalking about is connection and,
uh, we will talk about matchedand how that's creating
connections.

Nobody (42:23):
Mm-hmm.
Um,

and.
You know, the way that peopleconnect now is probably gonna be
very different to the way peopleconnect in five years and
Instagram and TikTok, they'resuch good, you know, connection
tools and I've definitelyenjoyed the part of social media
in connecting with other authorsand readers.
That's been the best part.
Mm.
Um, um, but, uh, you know,chatting with other people, a

(42:47):
lot of people are saying,because AI.
Is, you know, we are not surewhether content is AI generated
or not.
'cause I think humans stillwanna connect with humans.
They don't wanna connect with AIdriven content.
Yeah.
On social media that they mightbe moving to platforms like
Discord, where they can creategroups very much about focused
issue areas that they enjoy,like key issue areas that they

(43:09):
enjoy.
Yeah.
It goes back to what we weresaying about those in-person
things, and I quite, I, I thinkthat's quite good, but, um
mm-hmm.
So interested in your thoughtson that, but another thing as
well, another reflection.
Um, so Ally Parker, who you, youknow, um, she's a friend of the
podcast.
Um, she was, she's been sayingto me that I need to get onto
TikTok.

(43:30):
And I was talking to, we did anevent last night together, and I
was, it's, it's reallyinteresting.
I've done two events now withAlly in the last couple of
weeks.
Ally's really good on TikTok.

Nobody (43:39):
Mm.

So for those who want a good example of,
she's fantastic.
Very authentic.
Yeah.
Um.
Interestingly, a lot of theevents that I attend, like, um,
book events, it's attended by acertain kind of age group, I
suppose, tends to be olderwomen.
Um, but when I have been goingto the events with Ali, um, she

(44:01):
attracts a younger.
Audience because she's on TikTokand a lot of them are.
And they said, they tell melike, oh, we, I found Ali on
TikTok.
Um, and so we've got now, andthe positives of this is we've
got this younger communityreading, historical fiction,
consuming this kind of content,which is different'cause I think
traditionally.

(44:21):
Tick book talkers are consuming,like romantic and fantasy and
that, and romance and thingslike that.
But now they're consuminghistorical fiction and they're
coming together to thesein-person events.
They know each other, they're,they've got this nice community.
They're talking about books, andthat's a really positive, I
think, from them.

Yeah, it is.
I, I fully agree.
I think, um, what you're talkingabout is, I would say the
concept of discovery and likethe discovery happening, where
it happens matters.
And I think discovery on TikTokis so deep in community, like
it's.
So everyone's very open.
There's no kind of like, youknow, you see a lot of polish on
Instagram.

(44:59):
Um, on TikTok there's a lot ofauthenticity, and so people
connect more deeply faster.
So I am not surprised, like Alispending time there is ge
generating like a, you know,there's a bit of like cult
following that happens on TikTokwhen, when people, when people
like, see two of your videos.
This comes back to this funnelthat I mentioned.
I think it's two or three, andthen like, they follow you, then
they're hooked.

(45:19):
If someone follows you onTikTok, they're like a really
high.
Um, uh, a high value subscriberor person that, like, they're
part of your community.
So, um, yeah, it is really, it'sreally interesting.
But to your point, I thinkthere's.
This concept of community isshifting so much.
Um, and I think, yeah, we'regoing to have this, we're gonna

(45:40):
have be quite binary.
I think it'll be like everythinghappening on AI or everything
happening in person.
I think there's gonna be thismove to people wanting to
connect with a real human.
Um, first.
Yeah.

Like I'm all here for it.
You know me.
I like to connect people that,that's like big things.
I think that's probably whywe're such good friends, because
we've always.
Um, wanted to connect peopleand, and, um, maintain really
good connections with people.
And I think that's, you know,something that we really enjoy.

(46:11):
So let's then talk about matchedin that vein.
Mm-hmm.
Because, um, I wanna hear what.
I know we heard about some ofthe whys, but tell us what your
vision and goals are formatched.

Yeah, so, um, matched is a knowledge sharing
platform.
So really what we do is, uh, weconnect learners with trainers
based on their goals.
So, um, someone comes into matchand they set a goal of, I wanna
find a new role, or I wannawrite a novel, or I wanna
publish my first novel.
Uh, and then we match.
Them with the coaches, advisors,trainers, um, to help them get

(46:46):
there.
And so, uh, what that reallymeans in practice is you can go
like deep in a live one-on-onesession to this point around
kind of this live connectionpiece.
Um, or you can do kind of, um,offline reviews of.
Work, one of those is what I'vegot this morning.
Um, or, you know, um, reviews ofwriting if you're, if you're a,
um, writer.
And, um, what's really amazingabout that is, you know, so much

(47:09):
of how we get access to peopleand, and I guess the original
vision behind Match is how do wemake knowledge more accessible
and mm-hmm.
Um, we wanna really besocioeconomic equalizer.
So what that means is,regardless of your background,
you can come to Match and youcan find someone and connect
with them.
Um, where for so long, you know.
Access to really experiencedpeople is based on who you know

(47:31):
and your networks.
Um, and so really what we wantmatch to be is you, you know,
it's your own network.
Your, you can build your ownpersonal board of, of advisors,
your personal community aroundyou, um, regardless of your
goals as they change over time.
So say you publish a novel, um,then you've got different goals.
You may be doing your secondnovel or, um, there's different
things that you need atdifferent points in your
journey.

(47:51):
And so we wanna be the placethat people go to to access that
knowledge.

I, I love this.
And I think it's a reallyimportant thing to have, um,
guidance even after you'vepublished your book, um, because
it's different to having anagent or a publisher.
This is someone who is reallyinvested in your, your long-term
career as whatever you wanna be,and you can really set those

(48:16):
standards.
So I wanna talk briefly about.
What it means to be a goodtrainer or coach, because I
think it's something that a lotof authors consider offering as
a service, but perhaps.
Uh, to have too much impostersyndrome to say, I I can help
other riders.

Yes.
I think it's, um, it's verynormal.
It's, it's like until you startdoing it and it feels a little
bit uncomfortable, you feel abit like, not preachy, but like,
you're kind of like, do I havethe right to say this to other
people?
And it's like, yes, because youknow, what, do you know what's
really interesting about.
Being a really good coach, um,you learn from that experience
as much as the other persondoes.

(48:55):
So I think if you go into itwith that mindset of your
learning of how to pass yourskills onto others, then it's as
valuable for you as it is forthe person, um, you are
supporting.
And so I think what makes areally good coach is
self-awareness.
Um, uh, really clearunderstanding of where you can
add value.
That's something we can helpwith.
So, um, there's sometimes, like,you know, you know that you've

(49:17):
got a whole bunch of likeskills, um, and then we call
this concept, um, skillstacking.
So what, what is your skillstack that you then can then
communicate out?
So say that, for example, wouldbe like you.
Reviews of writing, um, likecertain type of words, like
structural narratives, I wouldimagine how to think about that.
Um, and then actual, just kindof live one-on-one knowledge

(49:38):
sharing.
So, you know, this podcast is agreat example.
There's so much like value thatyou are sharing on the whole
journey of how you, um, uh, youknow, emerging writer publish a
novel the whole way through.
How to get access to, um,publishers in general, other.
Optional paths.
Um, being able to talk tosomeone one-on-one about that
and like personalizing itspecifically, um, is really,

(50:01):
really great.
And I think we're starting tosee, um, thanks a lot to you.
You're our first, um, writer tosign up to match.
Um, and we've now, um, literallyas of next week we'll be
onboarding our, our first cohortof writers, um, because
exciting.
Yeah, and I think it's, it's, asI mentioned, this intersection
around, um, business people kindof figuring out what they wanna

(50:22):
do next.
Like, I would love to do anonfiction, um, uh, book at some
point in my journey, but I, oh,publishers,

if you're listening, this has a great
profile, a

great story to tell.
Oh, I mean, I just wouldn't evenknow where to start.
So I would be the, like acaptive audience.
And I think it's thisself-awareness, right?
Of, you know, writers don't, youmay not feel like you've got.
Um, the knowledge to share, butlike me saying this, obviously
I'm very experienced in my area,but I'm super aware that I have
no knowledge in this area.
So you do, you know so muchabout your area, so don't like

(50:55):
discount that that's valuable tosomeone who, you know, has, has
never touched it.
And I actually have quite a lotof people message me being like,
do, are there writers onmmatched?
Like, I'm thinking about doing anovel, blah, blah, blah.
Um.
So, yeah, I would say likebeing, just putting yourself out
there and testing it out and itdoesn't, if it doesn't work,
it's fine.
Like it's, it's like, you know,having the conversations with
people, it helps you sharpenyour tools as well, like

(51:17):
understanding what's happening,um, how people think about, you
know, their own narrativestructures.
It makes you kind of keep yourtools sharp as well.
Hmm.

This is fantastic.
So are you looking at gettingonboarding more riders in
future?

Yeah, I think we'll, um, do this first cohort
and then Yeah.
Where, um, we take trainerapplications, um, all the time.
Yep.
But, um, yeah, if people wannadrop me an email or send me a
message, but how do people

get into contact with you, Jess?

Yeah.
Drop me a message on the matchedInsta.
I think that might be.
Best one, or TikTok if youreally want to.
But, um, um, yeah, send memessage on the match Instagram,
um, which is that, what's thehandle for Yeah, match at at
match Community.
Um,

okay.
We'll, we'll make sure it's inthe show notes for everyone as
well.
So, um, if you wanna get intocontact with Jess, it's, it's an
amazing platform and Jess is anamazing woman.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and.
Her background.
We haven't even touched on allthe incredible things that she
has done in her career.
But having a woman like Jesswho's, um, been able to really

(52:15):
craft a career in tech, it's,it's, it's not an easy thing
that you've done, Jess, and I'mwhat, I'm probably one of the
best, the most proudest friendsever.
I mean, I'm the most proud ofyou, so

Nobody (52:28):
let that catch out.

Well, our little year seven, um, selves,
how proud would they be lookingat us now?
Or 20

years on.
That's crazy.
I feel like it's, yeah, you justcouldn't even dream it up.
I think that's so much aboutlike the journey, right?
You just make decisions and takethe opportunities as you go.
Mm-hmm.

Exactly.
I feel like there's so much moreto talk about, so we might need
to get you back on for a parttwo later down the track.
Um, Jeff, because there's somuch, I've just.
Had so much from this.
Um, we always finish though onone top tip.
Um, is there something that youwanna leave all the writers, um,
with, um, at the end of this,Jessica?

Yeah, I think, um, we talk a lot about this kind of
burnout.
The, the feeling, the pressureto do everything and do it all.
Um, and my tip is you can do itall, just not all at once and.
Pick the sequencing.
So the order, not the activity.
So you don't need to chop thingsout.

(53:26):
I think it's finding the rightorder to do the things in and
saying no to some things doesn'tmean that you can't bring them
back down the track.
And building a company is likethis.
Um, you know, at each stage of acompany, the company looks
different and you as writers areeach mini companies, so it's.
It's this, you know, portfoliocareer.
But um, yeah, the sequencing isimportant so you can't run all

(53:49):
the way to the finish line.
We'll start at the finishingline, right?
You have to start at the startand the journey is so much of
how you get there.
So yeah, do

it all.
That's a great tip and itreminds me of some That was
really good advice.
You provided me and you, I mean,you provide me with great top
tips.
Always.
It's very helpful to have afriend like genocide would
highly recommend it.
You gave me this image andyou're, you're always a good
storyteller, but you gave methis image of, um, the plastic
place.

Tina Strachan (54:16):
I was gonna say that.
Yeah.
Tell us about that.

Yeah, so someone actually said this to me, which
is a, is a very visual way ofthinking about what I just said,
which is, um.
You if you're spinning all theplates, one of them needs to be
plastic, um, which I lovebecause obviously if they fall,
the plastic one doesn't break.
Um, and so find your, find yourplastic plate

and it can be a few plastic plates perhaps as
well.
Yeah.
In different periods of yourlife.
Um, Jessica Box, thank you somuch for joining us on the book
Deal podcast.
This I'm gonna take so much awayfrom this.

Thank you.
It's been a joy and yeah, I'mobviously happy to help and, and
speak to anyone about how theyset up.
Themselves as a business.
So

yeah, please do reach out to Jess.
Um, and um, yeah, we'll get youback on for part two.
Thanks so much and enjoy yourholiday.
Thank you.
I'm excited.
Thank you for listening to thebook Deal podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new apps drop and to keep

(55:18):
up to date with what the pod isdoing.
You can also find us onInstagram.

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