Madeleine Cleary and The Butterfly Women: ancestry, inspiration and her publication journey

Tina Strachan interviews Madeleine Cleary about her debut novel, 'The Butterfly Women'. They explore Madeleine's ancestral inspiration, her meticulous research process, and the trials and triumphs of getting a book published. Madeleine shares insights on her writing journey, including the importance of finding joy in writing, the role of her supportive family, and her experience with pitching to publishers. The episode also highlights upcoming book launch events and discusses the significance of writing for oneself rather than with publication in mind.

 

00:00 Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast

00:43 Catching Up with Tina and Madeline

01:28 Tina's Exciting Book Launch Plans

04:30 Madeleine's Journey to Publication

10:55 The Butterfly Women: A Deep Dive

18:47 The Inspiration Behind The Butterfly Women

35:00 Researching Historical Fiction

38:20 Diving into Historical Research

39:24 The Writing Journey Begins

41:56 Finding the Heat in Writing

43:07 The Breakthrough Moment

47:39 The Road to Publication

47:56 A Life-Changing Accident

51:01 Pitching to Publishers

52:11 Securing a Book Deal

01:04:59 Preparing for the Book Launch

01:08:41 Final Thoughts and Top Tips

 

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You can find out more about Tina and Madeleine and follow their journeys here:
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Tina Strachan children's book author
Madeleine Cleary (@madeleineclearywrites) • Instagram photos and videos
Madeleine Cleary | Author

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Episode Transcript

Speaker (00:09):
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover
the inspiring stories, theauthors behind your favorite
books.
No matter what sage of writingyou are at, we've got you
covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one
deal at a time.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
The book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional
owners of the land and waters,which it's recorded on and pays
respect to their elders past,present, and emerging.

Madeleine (00:43):
We are back.

Tina (00:43):
Madeleine Cleary.
We're back.
This is so exciting.
I feel like I haven't spoken toyou for a while.

Madeleine (00:48):
Oh, it's been so long and I'm glad we're just hitting
record as well'cause we've gotlike lots to talk about and lots
to catch up on.
And tell Tina what, what haveyou been up to?
You've been up to lots ofinteresting things as always.

Tina (01:00):
Uh, yes.
Not as interesting as you.
And I'm very excited for today'sepisode because I get to
interview you.
So this has been my woo.

Madeleine (01:07):
I'm excited.
I've been looking forward tothis one and I, I can admit I've
been looking forward to this onethe most of all the

Tina (01:13):
oh yeah.
It's a pretty cool podcast to beinterviewed on.

Madeleine (01:18):
Thank you for having me, Tina.

Tina (01:20):
oh look, we're a bit biased, but yes.
Okay, well let's do a quickcatch up.
Anyway, my stuff's not asexciting, actually.
No, that's not true.
It is pretty exciting as well.
Um, yeah, I think since wecaught up recently, I have had
my final pages for book.
Two in the Wilder Zoo seriescome, uh, come through and then
have a look at that.
So where it's all beautifullytype set on, uh, you know, it's

(01:42):
just in a PDF, but it's all typeset and you have all the amazing
illustrations, um, in there andjust checking that everything
looks great, just giving it onenice look over before it goes to
print.
Um, yeah.

Madeleine (01:55):
I can't believe you're already at this stage
again with book two.

Tina (02:00):
Yes, it is very, very exciting.
Um, so Neeka in the storm, thatone is called,

Madeleine (02:05):
And when's that out,

Tina (02:07):
uh, so it'll be July 1st, so that's only a few months
away.
Um, quite soon actually.
So now I'm in the process ofprepping for book two launch,
which is really exciting.
So

Madeleine (02:18):
you did a big launch for Book one.
Are you gonna do a big one forbook two as well?

Tina (02:23):
um, I don't, I've got, I think I'm just planning on a few
more things and I'm hoping to dosome stuff in, uh, in Melbourne
and Victoria around the

Madeleine (02:32):
I saw that, oh my gosh.
You sent a message while I wasat Sorento and you, I, I, I
think I was at some very fancyparty having drinks with Helen
Garner.
So like, I, as you do, I did seea message saying you were going
to perhaps do a launch inMelbourne.
And I did get very excited, butI course I forgot to respond

(02:52):
'cause you know,

Tina (02:53):
because you were busy, but I prefaced all my messages with,
ignore this one, ignore thisone.
Don't look at this until Sunday.
I know you're busy.
I'm just brain dumping here.
Um,

Madeleine (03:03):
love that.
I love that.
I I, I'll, I'm glad you'rekeeping me in the loop because
Yes, it's all interestingthings.

Tina (03:09):
Oh, so that'll be super exciting.
So yes, hopefully, yeah, justhopefully some nice fun, um,
launches around the place and afew up here in Queensland

Madeleine (03:18):
Now, you know that coming to Melbourne in July for
Queensland is, is a tricky thingto do.

Tina (03:24):
I need to buy a puffer jacket and

Madeleine (03:27):
You

Tina (03:27):
may, some, some thermals.
Okay.

Madeleine (03:30):
You, you may need that.
Um, it also takes a lot ofencouragement for Melburnians to
come out of their nest, but Iwill do it for you

Tina (03:39):
I hope so.

Madeleine (03:41):
out of hibernation.

Tina (03:43):
It'll be a fun thing to come outta hibernation for.

Madeleine (03:45):
Absolutely.

Tina (03:46):
Well, I promise to make it exciting and fun if I, if yeah,
if it all comes together.

Madeleine (03:51):
we have a lot of Melburnian listeners I'm sure,
according to the data we do.
So I bet there'll be a lot ofpeople keen

Tina (03:58):
Yeah.
A lot of the Debut crew downthere too, so I always, I always
see everybody posting all thecool things that they're doing.
Everyone's launches, you know,Sydney and, and Melbourne, and I
don't get to go to them.
I have massive fomo.
So, um, yes, hopefully I get tosee everyone when I'm down.
Anyway,

Madeleine (04:15):
always welcome.
You are welcome to move downhere permanently as well.
I have a

Tina (04:20):
cool lit community down there.
Oh, I might take you up on thatspare room for a writer's
retreat maybe.

Madeleine (04:25):
You should.
You should.

Tina (04:27):
But anyway, that's what's been keeping me busy.
What about you, Madeleine?
You literally have just got backyesterday from something super
exciting, but also the last,what, four weeks or so, you've
really been getting ready forthe

Madeleine (04:41):
Yeah, I know.
It's been wonderful.
Um, and I think it's, it's, it'sexciting.
It's, I'm not really nervousabout anything.
I'm just really excited for itto come out.
Like I'm really ready now.
So I think as we're recordingthe book, so Butterfly Women
will be out in two more days,but in very exciting times.

(05:02):
I actually got to see a stack ofthe books at Sorento Writers
Festival, which is where I wasover the weekend.
Um, and you know, that is prettycool seeing your book up there
next to like Natasha Lester'shuge piles, stacks of nine
books, and then next to CapeGreenville's books.

(05:23):
Like, it's, it's pretty cool to

Tina (05:25):
I do believe though, um, and there is photo evidence that
your big pile of books that youhad there did actually disappear
pretty much, pretty quickly.
So

Madeleine (05:33):
It was pretty exciting.
So yeah, we, I did a panel onThursday, which was really fun.
Um, and it, yeah, it was thefirst time speaking publicly,
like out in, in the flesh as youwould say, uh, about the book.
And yeah, it was fantastic.
And yeah, people obviously wereinterested in the story and it
was really fun to see that bookpile go down, which was so

(05:56):
lovely.
And then we just hung out.
So I got my panel out of the wayreally early on the Thursday,
and then, yeah, we just hung outfor the weekend.
And the highlight being, havinga chat about football with Helen
Garner, who's my absolute idoland she, I'll never, this will
be a story that I will carry methrough my life where she used

(06:17):
me as a prop to demonstrate howshe picks up her chooks in her
backyard and.
I, you know, I was justastounded.
I had this, you know, literarylegend standing behind me,
embracing me like her, one ofher chickens.

Tina (06:33):
Picking you up like a, oh man, that's gold.
That is.

Madeleine (06:40):
It was amazing and we were so lucky, like we almost
didn't go.
It was a party that textpublishing where had organized
at an art gallery sounded verySwank Rayen Richardson, who's
one of the debut authors fromlast year.
He just invited all our 2025debut crew along.
So we were like, oh, are wegonna be, you know, standing out
like a sore thumb becausethere's some pretty amazing

(07:00):
authors who are attending.
Um, but yeah, everyone was solovely.
And Helen, including HelenGarner, who spoke to us for
about 20 minutes, she showed meon her phone photos of her with
the bond.
Um, Marcus Bonelli from WesternBulldogs Star, um, Bob Murphy,
and yeah, we're just talkingfooty.
Um, and you know, I was just, Iwas talking about this with

(07:21):
Natasha Rai, our take over ahost and Natasha was saying how
these types of events, it's solovely when you are a published
author, although I'm not yet,but.
Almost, um, that you could justget to have normal, banal kind
of conversations with theseamazing legends of the saint
literary scene, um, where yousort of once saw them as gods,

(07:42):
you realize, oh, these peopleare just humans too.

Tina (07:45):
Yeah.
And they're still gods, butthey, you realize Yes, they are.
That's just a, a person.
They're just a person that'sdone some amazing work.

Madeleine (07:55):
Exactly.
So yeah.
So that's been the highlight ofmy last four weeks, I reckon.

Tina (08:00):
That's incredible.
So much.
It's such an exciting time,Madeleine, for you.

Madeleine (08:04):
It is, it is.
I'm so pumped.
And, um, yeah, it's, it's justhard to believe Time just cut
goes really quickly, doesn't it?
Leading up to launch, you thinkit's taking a while and then
suddenly time speeds up and

Tina (08:17):
Yeah, I agree.

Madeleine (08:18):
two days, two days it'll be up.

Tina (08:20):
days and I'm so, so, I'm so excited to interview you
about the Butterfly Women andyour journey to publication and
how we got to this point.
And I think this is a really,um, special time to do the
interview where it's, it'simminent, like the, the book
hasn't, it hasn't quite comeout.
It hasn't come out yetofficially.

(08:40):
You're only a couple of daysahead of it and, um, it's, yeah,
it's a, it's a time that you'llnever be in again.
Like I'm certain there'll betimes when you have more books
coming out, so, you know,pre-publication is always gonna
be something for you.
But as a debut author, you onlyget one chance at that, right?
You only, you only, you can onlybe a debut author once and this

(09:02):
time, sort of pre.
Publication of your first evernovel.
It's a, um, it's a specialinteresting kind of feeling and,
and,

Madeleine (09:13):
Hmm.

Tina (09:13):
time and anyway, I'm gonna get to asking you all about your
feelings very soon.

Madeleine (09:17):
It's almost like, uh, the time before you get your
first contract.
I think that's a really specialtime.
It's actually a really freeingtime because you're writing
purely for yourself.
Well, at least that you'd hopeyou are.
That's who you're writing.

Tina (09:31):
Mm

Madeleine (09:32):
That can kind of shift, I think once you've
signed a contract, you thenstart thinking about perhaps
other people and other audiencesin mind, which can be quite
dangerous.
I think as a creative, they canguide some of your decisions.

Tina (09:45):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Maybe sometimes in a good way.
Other times, maybe not so much,but I agree.
It's almost like your firstbooks before publication are
like, um, a little, not naivety,but just innocence maybe in a
way.

Madeleine (10:00):
Yeah.
And that, that can be amazing

Tina (10:02):
Hmm.
Yeah.

Madeleine (10:03):
are, you are just curious and you're just
exploring, but then I think youhave to have other things in
mind.
When you're thinking about yoursecond book, you're like, oh,
should I stick on theme?
Should I embed myself as a, youknow, a career in this
particular thing?
Or should I try somethingdifferent?
Or either, there's a lot moredecisions I think, in than

(10:23):
particularly if you startreading reviews that that can
get into your head as well.
Which don't do it.
Don't do it.

Tina (10:31):
so hard, so hard not to do though, isn't it?

Madeleine (10:34):
it is.
it is.
Well, we're all seekingvalidation, aren't we?

Tina (10:36):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's hard not to have a look,but, but anyway, Madeleine, I
feel like I need to, um, getinto my questions that I have
prepared for you,

Madeleine (10:45):
I'm excited.

Tina (10:46):
for our, for our formal interview today, because I feel
like we're gonna go massivelyover time because I have so much
that I wanna talk to you about.

Madeleine (10:53):
All right, let's dive in then.

Tina (10:55):
Alright, well, Madeleine Cleary, congratulations on the
very, very soon to be released.
The Butterfly Women.
Woo hoo.
Published by a firm press.
I'm so excited.
I was so excited When I amholding your book at the moment,

Madeleine (11:08):
Oh, you've got a copy.
It's really special to see youwith the copy of the book, Tina.

Tina (11:13):
it was, it was felt really special to hold it.
Like it's, it's apart from beingbeautiful, like it was just a
really special feeling.
I feel like I've come along onthis journey with you really
closely, as do all the listenerstoo, you know, so it's gonna be
exciting when they're allholding your copy too.
But, you know, it's funny, likewhen you read my book, um, and
it had been quite a while sinceyou'd read a middle grade book.

(11:33):
Um, same for me.
I hadn't read historical fictionin a really long time, really
long time.
And it's not something that Iwould often, um, gravitate to.
And I think the reason being isbecause, um, maybe the
historical fictions that I werereading were just not, just not
the right ones for me.
I think, you know, some of theones I'd read are just, um, I.

(11:54):
Maybe couldn't really connectwith the characters or the
settings.
I just, um, maybe it was alittle bit slow for me as well.
I felt, and these are just thebooks that I read.
Um, but, you know, no one toldme that there could be
historical fiction quite likethe Butterfly Women, Madeleine,
no one told me that I could reada historical fiction where the

(12:17):
main characters includedprostitutes and brothel owners
searching for a killer in thenotorious Red Light district of
Melbourne in the 1860s.
I did not know this.
I am now thoroughly hooked and Iwant some more.

Madeleine (12:34):
oh, that means so much.
Oh my God.
I'm gonna cry.
Oh.

Tina (12:38):
I think I sent you a message after like the first two
chapters, something like, um,because I was really enjoying
it, just saying these women arebadass and I'm here for it.

Madeleine (12:51):
That makes me so happy.
And yeah, it's interesting,isn't it?
Historical fiction.
Sometimes it can tend towardsthat, that slower immersive, and
that's for, I think readers whojust wanna.
Situate themselves into aparticular era and just, it
almost tears away your own worldand you can really live and, you

(13:13):
know, you're focusing on whatyou're touching and tasting and
seeing.
And I, I love that kind ofhistorical fiction as well.
And I do bring that, like, Ihope that you feel really
immersed in Melbourne 19thcentury.
Like, I want you to feel that,that, but at the same time too,
I'm a person that I love a goodnarrative that hooks you and
that brings you along with astory as well.

(13:34):
So it's not just aboutpositioning yourself as a
reader, but it's also about, uh,going along with the characters.

Tina (13:41):
Mm, well, it definitely had all of that.
It had, you know, the strongcharacters and the strong
narrative.
And it's funny, one, one of thethings I was going to say about
it was that I definitely, thesetting was so rich and vivid
and real and, uh, I couldabsolutely, you know, at times
feel like I could see it andsmell it and feel it.
Um, which at sometimes is alittle bit uncomfortable

Madeleine (14:04):
Yes,

Tina (14:05):
in the back alleys of The red light, dis red light
district.
But no, it was incredible andit, it was very immersive and
you could tell.
So yeah, just rich, thecharacters were rich and real
and enjoyable and it was anincredible journey.
thank you.
feel very honored.
know what I love about it, apartfrom the beautiful, I mean,
apart from the story, but theactual book and, um, the

(14:28):
incredible cover.
Incredible cover with this darkred bods and the beautiful
butterflies.
And even inside the cover you'vegot like end pages like they do
in, you know, picture books,sometimes these gorgeous
butterfly end pages.
And I love the tagline on thefront that says, danger lurks in
this house of ill repute.

Madeleine (14:50):
So there is a story behind that.
I actually didn't write thetagline, um, that, that came
from my publisher and, uh.
I, I was sitting in at, in theoffice at a firm press with my
publisher, and she showed me thecover on her laptop and she's
like, look what I managed tosneak onto the cover.
And it's those words, repute.

(15:11):
We just love that old language.
Doesn't it just sound fabulous

Tina (15:15):
What it does well, I'm so glad that they snuck it on
there.
Um, because I mean, if thatdoesn't, if that doesn't get you
in, I don't know what does.
But you know, that's whatpublishers are good for, aren't
they, with those taglines?

Madeleine (15:28):
They're, they're, and the cover designer, no, Kovi,
she did an incredible job.
It went through a series, sothey, they actually had another
cover designer working on it fora few months, and they just
cooked together collectively.
They couldn't come to a, to acover that they wanted, and so
they ended up.

(15:48):
Going to Nada.
And she, that was the firstcover she delivered after
reading the book and, and, um,delivering the brief.
So, and as soon as they saw it,they were like, yep, that's,
that's it.
So, and I felt that way too whenI saw it.

Tina (16:03):
Yeah.
No, it's amazing.
Um, but I also do love the quotefrom Ellie Parker on the back

Madeleine (16:10):
Yeah.
So that, what is it?
Oh, you have to, um,

Tina (16:14):
it says, rich and vivid.
These characters will pick uptheir skirts and nestle into
your heart.
Ali, you delivered on that one.

Madeleine (16:23):
It's so clever.
When I saw that, I was like, oh,brilliant, brilliant.
I'm so glad it made it onto thecover.
Like it's on the back, but it'son the

Tina (16:32):
Oh yeah.
Absolutely.
And again, it just, it's just areally great quote for that sums
up the book, but, um, but enoughof me talking about book,
Madeleine, I ask all my gueststhis.
You are not gonna get away withit.
Can you give us your one-liner?

Madeleine (16:49):
Okay.
One liner or a pitch,

Tina (16:53):
Have

Madeleine (16:53):
you can

Tina (16:53):
I'm gonna say

Madeleine (16:54):
do it in a one line.

Tina (16:55):
Okay.
Go.

Madeleine (16:56):
Okay.
So the Butterfly Women is ahistorical romp and a greedy
murder mystery retelling, untoldwomen's stories amidst a Jack
the Ripper style murder inMelbourne 1860s.

Tina (17:11):
Yeah.
Nice.

Madeleine (17:12):
That, yeah, I gotta perfect that a little bit I
think.

Tina (17:15):
No, that was good.
I like that.
I think that sums it up reallywell.
It makes it sound exciting

Madeleine (17:22):
Yeah, and Jack The Ripper kind of adds a little bit
of, you know, intrigue'cause itis both that I think like it,

Tina (17:28):
I suppose,

Madeleine (17:28):
it's the historical retelling, but it's also got
that it's a bit gritty and bitdark and I didn't quite realize
how dark it was until peoplestarted coming back to me after
reading it going.
It's dark, Madeleine.
Like there are, I mean, there'sa lot of light and there's a lot
of fun and there's a lot of joyand you know, you're, you're,
you know, you're a, it's set ina high class brothel and
there's, you know, there there'slots of like interesting,

(17:51):
intriguing kind of things, but Ithink as well, yeah, there are a
few dark moments in there.
And that's what I wanted to showis both the, the light and the
dark in that time, because Ididn't wanna glamorize
prostitution and make it like alight frothy tale about women,
you know, earning money andbuying lots of beautiful silk

(18:11):
dresses and, and that, I mean,they did do that, but there was
also this darker side as well.
Hmm.

Tina (18:17):
No, I think it's perfect.
Perfectly done.
Um, but yeah.
And yeah, maybe dark.
I, I don't mind a bit of dark inmy, in the books that I read
though, so

Madeleine (18:26):
Yeah.
I'm not a cozy crime person.
I've realized, I think.

Tina (18:29):
Yeah.
I mean, it says, you know, onyour blur on the back it says
lush, dark, and meticulouslyresearch.

Madeleine (18:35):
Trigger warning.
So there is a warning.

Tina (18:37):
But it's lush as well as dark, so, you know, balances.
Yeah.

Madeleine (18:42):
Credit Ruby Ashby for that description.
Definitely not me.

Tina (18:47):
but Madeleine, um, you, this tail that you have, that
you have written here hasn'tcompletely come out of nowhere,
has it?
Like there was can, this is avery, very exciting, fun tale
that I love.
Can you give us, um, tell usabout your inspiration for the
book and where it all started?
It's a great story.

Madeleine (19:06):
Absolutely.
So it, it's all came about inabout 2014, so it's over 10
years ago now.
Um, and my dad, he, um, wasconnected with a woman on
ancestry.com, a distantrelative, and she wrote a little
message to dad on this platformand said, oh, Phil, my dad's
name, do you know that you arerelated to the infamous Irish

(19:28):
Cleary family of earlyMelbourne?
And dad said, no, but please dotell me.
She provided a few pages ofresearch that she'd done, which
linked us to, um, directdescendants of a woman called
Catherine Cleary.
And she was my great, great,great grandmother.
And she was also a brothel.

(19:49):
Uh, she owned and lived in abrothel in that little one red
light district in Melbourne.
Um, so this of course, wasreally exciting.
It's a secret that had beenburied for so many years in our
family.
Um.
And I think a lot of families,you know, have those types of
secrets, those ancestors thatthey wanna forget.

(20:09):
But now there's more interest inlooking back and reflecting on
your family and where you'vecome from.
And so this really sparked mydad to dig further.
And I think back in 2014, I waspretty young still.
I was in my early twenties.
And I remember, I remember dadtelling me about it.

(20:30):
I remember him sending me lotsof articles.
I remember asking lots ofquestions.
And I did think at that time itwould be fantastic to read a
book about these women, um, inthis particular era.
And so I did a lot of Googling.
I was like googling fictionbooks, um, just to try and see
if there was anything.

(20:50):
'cause fiction's always beensomething that I loved.
And I couldn't see anythingwritten about that time.
And so I thought, well, youknow, may, maybe I can write
this.
So, yeah, so.

Tina (21:04):
what a, yes.
You would be the perfect personto write that.
And so had you been writing thenup until that point?

Madeleine (21:10):
So I've been working as a bookseller.
Um, I was working as abookseller then, and this was
during uni.
I was studying internationalrelations.
I've always been a massivereader, um, and I think most
writers are, aren't they?
Um, you know, reading, havingweekly trips to the library
where I max out my library cardand I'd be spending all weekend

(21:33):
in bed till 11:00 PM until momdragged me out to have a shower.
Um, I wouldn't eat anythinguntil then.
And um, and she'd just be like,come on.
But she was, my mom was amassive encourager, I think of
my reading when it came towriting.
Yeah, I mean, I've got, I waswriting stories from, you know,
a young age.
I still got them too.

(21:53):
Um, mom kept them all in like abig box.
So I've got these stories.
There's one about like a dog, Ithink it's called something like
fire rescue or something.
And it's about a dog thatrescues a cat from a burning
house.
And I've drawn the

Tina (22:08):
the original patrol.

Madeleine (22:09):
It is.

Tina (22:10):
Something.

Madeleine (22:12):
I, I reckon I was.
And you know, I've even got likea title page on the inside of
the book, so I reckon like I wasa bit of a nerd and I did, did a
blurb and everything.
So, and mom got it all printedand bound office work.
So I've got a few of thesestories.
So I was always writing as a kidand then I.
Um, I, I think it, it was about2016 and so it was a couple

(22:33):
years after we've discoveredabout Catherine and, um, well
actually no, in 2014, I, I went,we went overseas for a year and
I thought, oh, my, my husband'sreally into writing and he kind
of gave me that ex I think theconfidence to be able to say,
maybe I can give it a go.
And so I started writing thisreally crappy young adult novel.

(22:56):
'cause that's what I wasreading.
I was reading a lot of that.
I mean, I'm a pretty widereader, but at the time I was
early twenties and it was awful.
I wrote 30,000 words and I neverpicked it back up and I never
wanna look at that again.
Um, and then 2016, I, I got ajob in Canberra, so we moved
into state.
So it was in my mid twenties.

(23:16):
Um, and I was working, and youmight feel this as well, I was
doing my normal.
Day job.
And I was just like, and people,I was talking with some other
public servants and it's totallyfine to be a career public
servant if you're happy withthat.
But they're like, oh, you know,you moved to Canberra 45 years
later, this is gonna be alive.

(23:38):
I moved to Canberra thinking I'donly be here for a year, and
then look at me.
And I just thought, oh my God,is this, is this all there is in
life?
Like, is this it?
And I like my job.
I have a great job.
I'm really enjoy it.
But it didn't tap into thatcreative side of me that I
really liked.
So, so, um, then I went to,sorry, I'm like going on a long

(24:01):
tangent, but we went to a, um, abook talk in Sydney.
It was with an author, us yourauthor, Maria Snyder.
She's a fantasy writer that Ireally liked.
And, um, Kate Forsyth, greatAustralian writer is
interviewing her.
And I was talking with Kateafter the event and Kate asked
me.
We were talking about books andreading and everything, and

(24:24):
she's like, oh, do you write?
And I was like, Hmm, do I write?
I wish I could say yes to atthat time.
That would bring me a lot ofjoy.
And so I said, oh, no, becauseI'm worried it would cut into my
reading time.
And she, she's sort of like, oh,well, you know, if you, you
write if you wanna run it, like,it's about where you prioritize

(24:46):
your time.
So driving back from Sydney, Iwas like, okay, I'm gonna start
writing from, from now.
Every day I'm gonna write.
And I did.
I pretty much wrote every dayuntil the Butterfly Women Draft
was done in 2022.
I wrote three novels before TheButterfly Women, a lot of people

(25:06):
say that they signed up to acourse, um, or went back to uni.
For me, I spent four yearswriting every day.
Doing my practice, doing my10,000 hours before I even
considered writing a book likeThe Butterfly Women.
And those three novels, again,will stay in the draw.

(25:29):
And at, at not one point did Iever consider, um, consider them
for ready for publication.
I knew that they were not, notpublication ready at all.
And so I just wrote them, putthem down, wrote them, put them
down.
And I think that helped me workout how to structure a story and

(25:50):
tell a story.
And I feel like as well, like Ididn't do any courses, but
because I was such a big reader,I feel like I knew how to tell a
story, um, how to structure astory, how, and so I felt like I
had the elements, but I justneeded the right story to tell,
which was in, in the end, thebutterfly women.

Tina (26:12):
Yeah, that's, that is an incredible journey and so many,
so many, um, questions I havefor you on all of that.

Madeleine (26:20):
I can see your writing.

Tina (26:22):
I always, I write and I doodle and it's what I do, and I
try to maintain eye contact atthe same time and scribble off
to the side.
It's my interview style.
Um.
Madeleine.
So, yeah.
So getting back to the, uh, likeyou said, all of that is your,
is you, I guess, writing andlearning how to write to get to
that point with the, thebutterfly women and, you know,

(26:45):
you were saying about, you know,obviously your history, um, and
researching about, uh, yourancestors

Madeleine (26:53):
mm.

Tina (26:54):
and your dad had a, he was really, he played a big role in
this, the whole, you know, Imean, he, he was the one that
came to you with all theinformation in the first place,
and, and I can imagine, andthese are his, you know, direct
ancestors.
I can imagine how proud he is ofyou and this book and the story
being out there.
How did he feel when he held thebook for the first time?
How did you feel when you couldgive it to him?

Madeleine (27:16):
yeah, it's, do you know, this is a really funny
story and I'm sure my parentsare listening to this.
Um, I just got my author copies,I got the big box, and I sort of
posted up on social media anddad messaged, and I think
there's a moment you have whenyou open up your own copies and
you're like, these are mine, andI'm just gonna hold them.

(27:37):
And like, they're like, yourlittle like babies and you're
like, I'll protect these copieswith my life.
And dad messaged me and he goes,oh, um, when can I get a copy?
Like, not like, oh, how, how doyou feel like you got your
copies?
When can I get one?
And I was like, dad, literallyyou'll be able to go to Sorento
in like four days and you'll beable to get a copy.

(27:58):
And I'm like, you are notgetting one.
You're not getting one.
And then the next day myhusband's like, that was really
mean of you.
And I'm like, yeah, so funny,funny.
Like all the things you've got,it's like a book, pre-launch,
brain of yours, you go a bitwild.
Um, and so the next day I wentand dropped in a copy to dad and

(28:22):
I didn't tell him I was coming.
I just rocked up.
And of course he's gardening.
And so I come up and like Dad,dad and I had a little bag and I
said, I've got a gift for you.
He's like, what's this?
And I said, well it up.
He's like, well, my hands aredirty.
Said.

Tina (28:43):
Aw,

Madeleine (28:44):
And so he kind of like, I got it out for him and
he like clasped it in his

Tina (28:48):
Aw.

Madeleine (28:49):
And then, yeah, that was really lovely.
And so, um, mom's like, allright, we have to take family
photos.
And I felt like it was likefamily photos with a, a newborn.
It was like my dad, me, andlike, I'm cradling the book.

Tina (29:02):
Aw.

Madeleine (29:03):
But no, he is very, very proud and very excited for
this.
These like our stories to be, tobe told.

Tina (29:10):
Yeah.
Well it's, it's a significantmoment, isn't it?
Even if it wasn't somethingrelated to your ancestry.
You know, having a bookpublished is pretty incredible,
but I know what you mean aboutthe books.
Um, and the, because you onlyget, you know, X amount of
coffees, it's not a lot foryourself.
And I know with mine I've endedup, you know, like I've, um,

(29:32):
used some like as giveaways orI've, um, you know, I've
definitely given them out tosome people.
And then you end up with, youknow, I wanna keep one for
myself as well.
Don't want that

Madeleine (29:42):
have to keep one from the box, I think.
'cause I think that's pretty

Tina (29:45):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Yeah.
So they do disappear

Madeleine (29:50):
and buy your own.
you can buy your own.
of course, from back thepublisher.
But there's

Tina (29:55):
yes, that's right.

Madeleine (29:56):
the first box.

Tina (29:57):
I think so.
I think so.
So yes it is.
I can see where your initialthoughts were there, Madeleine.
I have to say, even with my mom,I was kinda like, I'm gonna give
you one and you're just gonnaput it on your shell.
That's gonna sit there.

Madeleine (30:11):
That's right.
I'm like, you can,

Tina (30:12):
have a look whenever you want

Madeleine (30:13):
that's right.
You can buy it.
You can buy it.
Dad, go on.
Buy a few copies.

Tina (30:17):
dog.
Off you go.
Yeah, no.
Um, oh, that, that is prettyfunny.
Funny.
Oh, so Madeleine, um, theButterfly Women, you, it's
multiple points of view writtenfrom multiple points of view,
uh, which I loved because agreat way to get to know the
characters.

(30:37):
And they're, they also, youknow, different, they've got
various backgrounds and they'vegot different goals and personal
struggles and, but the one thingI think that they all had in
common was that they wereincredibly strong and

Madeleine (30:50):
Mm

Tina (30:51):
which I think, uh, has a lot of view in each one of them,
doesn't it?

Madeleine (30:56):
that's very kind.

Tina (30:57):
Uh, which.

Madeleine (30:58):
be an Irish sex worker, I reckon,

Tina (31:03):
You're related to them.
So there definitely is a lot ofyou actually, or of them in you
really isn't there.
So, um, but which one do youthink is the most like you and,
and why?

Madeleine (31:14):
Mm, that's a good question, Tina.
Well, pat and I were actuallytalking about this too, and it's
an interesting one.
Um.
I think I'm probably a mixtureof Joanna Callahan, who's, uh,
the Irish, um, sex worker andHarriet Gardner, who's, um, she,

(31:35):
she's, she's a bit more of thatsort of upper class.
She's just arrived to thecontinent.
Her brother is the policemagistrate, so she has a certain
sort of level in society.
The expectation is that she'llmarry and be respectable and be
a good colonial wife.
Um, but she's wants to dosomething a bit different and

(31:56):
she follows her cur.
She's very curious and I think Irelate to that because, um, you
know, I have a lot of, um.
I suppose for me, I've actuallynever wanted children.
And that's a bit of a personalthing to say, but I love kids.
Like I have wonderful nieces,but following that path of
getting married and havingchildren has never been

(32:18):
something that I've desired.
So I've always tried to dosomething different.
I've always been curious aboutdoing different things.
So I think that part of Harrietaligns to me.
And then she's a, she is thougha little bit, um, she's a, she's
I suppose, has a lot of anxietyand is afraid, and I would say
that's probably not as much me.

(32:38):
I'm happy to put myself outthere and talk to anyone.
And I think that's Joanna.
So Joanna is a, someone who's abit more gregarious.
She's, you know, she's funny.
I wouldn't say I'm a funnyperson, but she's certainly.
Funny and kind of enigmatic.
And I mean, she's, she has thosequalities that I would really
like to be that person that canjust walk into a room and has

(32:59):
that presence about her, eventhough she comes from background
where she's, you know, she's ailliterate Irish migrant, um,
who's arrived penniless withoutfamily.
She's found it difficult to holddown jobs.
And then she's given anopportunity, so she's much more
alike to my ancestors, um, whowere, who did arrive in

(33:22):
Australia as migrants fromLimerick in sort of 1830s, and
then eventually found their wayto Melbourne.
Um, so she's, yeah, very muchmore alike.
But the difference betweenJoanna and my family is that
Joanna had this opportunity towork at this high class brothel,
whereas my family, it appears,were much more on the streets,

(33:43):
uh, and they had to reallystruggle to survive.

Sally Gould (33:52):
Hi, my name's Sally Gould and I'm the author of The
Memoir Frog, the Secret Diary ofa Paramedic, with Simon and
Schuster.
I work as an intensive careparamedic and have been in this
dream job of mine for 14 yearsnow.
When I first started as a naivestudent ride along, I journaled
all of my experiences as I wasboth completely overwhelmed and

(34:12):
in awe, watching the paramedicsin action.
It was from these journals thatFrog grew.
In it.
I take readers on the wild rideas I go from that nervous
spectator to being in the treatseat myself.
As a paramedic, I want to openthe doors on what life as a
paramedic is really like.
I share the hilarious, the gory,the frustrating, and the magical

(34:33):
jobs.
But beyond that, the book isabout how this career inevitably
shapes identity and buildsresilience.
I can't wait for people toconnect with my story.
Frog is out now and available asa book.
Ebook and an audiobook that I'venarrated myself.
Thanks so much for your supportso far, and thanks Madeline and
Tina for inviting me to pop ontothe podcast.

Tina (35:00):
How did you learn about like, like I said, I don't, I
don't write historical, Hmm.
uh, fiction now, so it blows mymind how much research must,
must go into this.
And how did you, how, what didyou do to,'cause like I said,
when I read it, it, it reallydoes feel like you're there and
it's, um, so you've, you've justmanaged to show it on the page

(35:24):
show incredibly Well.
How did you.
Yeah, do the research.
Did you find it hard?
How long did it take and

Madeleine (35:32):
So yeah, the research stuff, I mean, other than what
my dad did, so I did my ownresearch of course, and I
started that in about 2018.
Um, and I'd was pretty much beenresearching since then.
Um, I find it a continualprocess.
I probably did a couple of yearsof research before I even
started the writing.

(35:52):
I don't know if I have thepatience to do that now.
So it'll be interesting to seefor book two what, what, how I
would approach that.
Um.

Tina (35:59):
were you researching for the writing or were you just
researching because you werelike, I'm going to write this
one day?
Or were you researching just forthe enjoyment of it?

Madeleine (36:08):
So back in 2018, I was at an exhibition at the
National Library and I came andI had this idea for a story set
in that time in Melbourne, but Ididn't have the characters.
But then they came to me inthis, during this exhibition, I
was looking at a paintingcalled, um, a Flight Affair Game
by Alfred Deco, and you can.

(36:30):
Look it up.
It's on the National Library ofAustralia's website and it's
this image of these women whowere, um, grown butterfly wings
and were flying from the UK orEngland to Van Diemen's land.
So this is back in the 1830s,and it was all about how like
transformation, how theyperceived there would be greater
opportunities for them and thesepeople from the poor houses,

(36:54):
from the asylum.
So they're not your upper classwomen, they're people who are
working class.
And I saw that and I justthought the Butterfly women, the
title came to me in a.
In that second, I was like, ah,that's the title.
And then the characters of, um,Mary and Catherine, who are Mary
Jenkins, she's a policeconstable.
She dresses up as her husbandand goes on his rounds and she's

(37:15):
based on actual character, aperson in history, um, and
Madame Laurent, the brothelmadam who they're both very good
friends.
Um, and so those two women cameto me and then it started
happening after that.
So when I had those characters,I then thought, okay, well it's
time to do some more research.
I'd done a little bit just outof interest to understand early
Colonial Melbourne.

(37:36):
'cause I think my question wasalways what were the
circumstances that my familywere in?
Why would they turn toprostitution?
And some of the stories werepretty grim.
Like, you know, we were, the,the way we were finding these
stories, it's not because we hadtheir journals.
You know, these are Irish womenwho were literate.
Um, we had the, um, newspaperarticles that detailed these,

(37:58):
they really detailed accounts oftheir court cases.
And at the time, the newspaperarticles, they had this kind of
dry wit about them as well.
Like they had a bit of a flarein their writing and they would
actually record exactly thekinds of things that my
ancestors were saying directly,like direct quotes.
So that kind of gave you a bitof insight and we had about.

(38:20):
A hundred pages or something ofthese articles that dad had
found.
So that gave us a bit of aninsight.
So yeah, we're trying tounderstand the circumstances.
So then I started doing a lot ofresearch at the National
Library, um, in Canberra and hadaccess to basically the entire
Australian collection, which wasamazing.
Um, of course there's Trove,which is the online, um,

(38:42):
digitized newspaper.
Resource and it's free inAustralia.
Um, so sometimes I would just goto a, a certain day in 1863 and
look at the age and see what'son the front page, just to get,
you know, some vibes about like,um, what was happening at the
time, what were some of thethings that people were talking
about.
Um, that's when I saw like theMelbourne Cup, which I didn't

(39:03):
know was so early, and which isthe horse race in, for those who
don't know horse race inMelbourne.
Big, big deal.
But yeah, like I, I saw thatthey were talking about the
Melbourne Cup.
I was like, oh, great, well,we'll have to have a scene about
the Melbourne Cup.
Then like, just like things likethat, you, you sort of pick up
things.
So I was doing a lot ofresearch.
I'd done too much.

(39:24):
I think I'd done too much, and Ihit a point where I'm like, I
have to start writing.
So I did and I wrote 30,000words, 30,000 words seems to be
a number that I get to,

Tina (39:36):
it's your, your spot.
Yeah.

Madeleine (39:38):
and I

Tina (39:38):
You could probably write 30.
Yeah.
Do you feel like you could, thefirst 30,000 maybe just come
really easily and then it's, atthat point, maybe it's, threw
them all

Madeleine (39:48):
away,

Tina (39:49):
a bit more.
Oh, right.
Okay.

Madeleine (39:50):
yeah.
Yep, yep.

Tina (39:52):
So you just have a little practice, that's all.

Madeleine (39:54):
Had a practice and I, I realized the characters
weren't even in Melbourne forthose first 30,000, it was their
journey on the boat toMelbourne.

Tina (40:02):
oh, interesting.
But you know what, I don't, Idon't think that's uncommon for
people to do, maybe not 30,000,but, um, because a, a lot of the
time, you know, you hear thatadvice.
About writing, where oftentimesthe publisher or the editor or
somebody that's giving theirprofessional feedback says,
you've just started your storyin the wrong spot, and you've

(40:23):
started it too soon.
Get rid of your first, in yourcase, 30,000 or first couple of
chapters, even just one chapter,two chapters, three chapters
first, third even, becauseyou've started it too soon, you
need to start it.
Yeah.

Madeleine (40:37):
Exactly, and that's what I'd done.
I'd started it too soon and Iwas like, I was like, this is a
book about Melbourne.
Why have I got 30,000 words on aboat?

Tina (40:46):
But you needed that.
Do you think you need that?
Because you are getting to learnthe characters you're getting
to, you know, you're puttingeverything together in your
mind.
And some people use that as abit of a tool before they start
writing.
Maybe they've, they've done thatbefore and they realize that
it's, it's about creating acharacters and doing all those
things kind of off the pagesomewhere else.

(41:06):
Creating, you know, settings andscenes and sayings and things.
So you, you would've done thatin that

Madeleine (41:12):
That's right.

Tina (41:13):
got to know them really well.

Madeleine (41:14):
Well, I got to know the friendship between Mary and
Catherine, two of the maincharacters and I that really,
yeah, it was definitely helpful,but it is really.
So unmotivating when you realizethat because you're like, I have
put in so much time.
You don't see the, the broaderperspective when you're in that
you just go, I have put in somuch time and this has all gone
away.

(41:34):
So in hindsight I go, yes, thatwas really helpful, but when
you're in the, in the midst ofit, it's, it is not helpful at
all.
And so I actually put themanuscript down.
That was back in 2019.
Didn't pick it up again until2022.

Tina (41:48):
Mm.
That's a nice break.
That's another little bit ofwriting advice, isn't it?
To put it away sometimes.
Not for three years, but youknow.
Um.

Madeleine (41:56):
think it goes down to, and this is something that
we've talked about before andIma episode with Emma, gods
talking about finding the heatin your work.
Uh, and I think that's somethingthat, um, Charlotte Ward has
said before about finding theheat.
And for me, I lost the heat inthat 30,000 words.
And I didn't know where to findit again.

(42:18):
And it wasn't until, andsometimes it just takes
something else to spark and findthat heat again.
And for me it coincided with therelease of a non-fiction book
called The Women of Little Lawnby a historian, Barbara
Minchenton.
And I read that book.
I was in living in China aswell.
I was overseas and I was reallymissing home.
I was really missing Melbourne.

(42:39):
I hadn't been to Melbourne forthree years.
And you know, this book is, ismy love letter to Melbourne.
It always has been and alwayswill be.
Um, I was living in Canberra butstill thinking about Melbourne
and then I was overseas and Icouldn't leave the country and I
was thinking about Melbourne.
Um, and so re reading this bookreally helped Spark and make,

(43:00):
helped me find heat.
And that's where I found Joannaand Harriet, the two other main
characters in the book afterthat.
So I had my Mary and Catherinealready, and I found Joanna and
Harriet and I realized this wasactually a book with four
perspectives.
That changed everything.
It broke through and I foundthat heat again.

Tina (43:21):
That's, so that's an incredible story and I feel like
so many.
Things came into play there.
Like you being away for threeyears and yearning for
Melbourne, which has made you,that's a bit of your heat there.
Right.
Underlying and wanting to cometo get out and then finding that
book and, um, which was sort of,maybe I was gonna say easing

(43:43):
your homesickness or maybemaking it worse, but, um, Yeah.
where you found those other twocharacters.
So it's all just, and and hadyou have pushed through, you
know, had you have gone No, I'vecome this far like three years
early, just thought I've comethis far, I'm just gonna keep
going.
'cause sometimes we do

Madeleine (43:57):
Yes.
You trudge?

Tina (43:59):
Yeah.
We push through for whateverreason and sometimes it really
just needs a bit of space.
And then in your case, just likeyou said, finding the heat.
I love that.
I love

Madeleine (44:09):
Yeah.
And I think it's okay to likeif, to put something down if
you're not, if it's not working,if it doesn't, if you don't have
the heat, if you're not feelingthat joy in.
And sometimes it's, for me, andI'm always a big believer,
perhaps it's a little like woowoo of me, but I feel sometimes
that the story, you're justwaiting for the story to, you

(44:32):
are waiting for the story tocome to you and, and sometimes
it takes time for the story towork itself out.
And for me it's like thecharacters telling the story to
me and I've just gotta listenand be receptive, I suppose, to
the outside world and, andthings like going to an art
exhibition and seeing that.
Painting.
That's what inspired the title.
That's what, how Mary andCatherine came to me.

(44:54):
Things like reading nonfictionbooks.
I'm a big fiction reader.
I'd also like to dabble innonfiction reading something
that sparks, you don't knowwhat's around the corner, but
you've gotta be open to it.
And receptive.

Tina (45:07):
It's so true.
It's so true.
Yeah.
Just, yeah.
Trying to find thoseopportunities being outside, in
the outside world, and it reallycould be, like you said, gonna
art galleries and, andexhibitions and things.
Or sometimes it can just bewalking the dog around the
corner and seeing an interactionor seeing, you know, overhearing
a conversation.

Madeleine (45:27):
Exactly.
It could be music.
It could be, yeah, it could be.
It could be something just,yeah, like you said, a
conversation and And you havethat ooh, light bulb moment.
It's this beautiful moment andit feels like the whole world is
sparkly.
That's what it felt like to me.
After reading that book byBarbara Mentionin and I
contacted her.

(45:49):
As soon as I read it and I said,thank you, thank you, thank you.
I didn't tell her I was writinga book.
'cause you know, you don'treally, as a day emerging
writer, you don't tell peopleyou're writing a book.
You keep that to yourself.
Didn't, I didn't even tell myparents.
Well, my parents knew I had beenthinking about it, but they
didn't know I was writing it.
And um, yeah, and I just saidthank you.
And then we have had this backand forth lovely email trial

(46:11):
since 2022 and Barb actuallyread an early draft of the
Butterfly Women and endorsed it,which meant the world to me.
So yeah, it's all come backaround

Tina (46:20):
It has.

Madeleine (46:21):
she's attending the launch as well in Melbourne next
week and

Tina (46:24):
oh my gosh.
That's incredible.
That's such a beautiful story.

Madeleine (46:28):
it's very special.
So, um, yeah, and it'sinteresting when you find the
heat, I think the writing comesquickly.
Like probably, and this is quickfor me.
I know Tina, you are a rapidwriter for your zero draft, but
for me, I had a first draft inabout nine months, which I was
working overseas full time.

(46:49):
I was doing really long hoursand you know, pretty busy on
weekends.
So I felt like that was prettygood.
And also dense research too.
You're dealing with a lot ofdense

Tina (46:57):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And it's, you know, it's a full,how many, how many pages is it?
How, how many words is it

Madeleine (47:04):
Well, when I finished the first draft, it was only
82,000.
And it's gotten up to about 94,I

Tina (47:09):
Yeah, yeah.
yeah.
So that's considerable.

Madeleine (47:12):
it is considerable.
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure.
And um, and then I suppose likeonce I had that draft, that
first draft, I did somethinglike 15 edits.
Like I didn't just write thedraft and then go, okay, this is
ready for publication now.
Not at all.

Tina (47:28):
good, good.
Another top tip, don't just donot just send it out yet.
It's not ready for publication.
Um, so, so it's 2022, you'vepicked it back up.
You've, you've had yourinspiration, you've found the
heat, and you have sensiblydecided this is not ready for
publication.
I'm gonna edit

Madeleine (47:47):
Mm.

Tina (47:48):
15 times.
Then what happens, Madeleine,how do we get from there to, to
here two days before yourpublication date?

Madeleine (47:55):
Okay.
So I will just backtrack alittle'cause this is a fun
story.
Um, I was really close tofinishing the first draft and I
was about to leave China andcome back to Canberra and my
posting.
And a week beforehand I did myfinal trip.
I was on my traveling on my own.
My husband was already back inAustralia and I decided to go on

(48:16):
a bike trip with my friend, uh,in the hills, in the mountains,
in like close to bed.
And, um, I fell off my bike andI fractured my jaw in three
places and I broke like sixteeth and.
Yeah, I remember like seeing my,uh, this is like a trigger for
people seeing my teeth on theroad.
I'm like, I've really, reallyeffed up here.

(48:38):
Really?
Really up middle of nowhere, youknow, went to the Chinese
hospital pretty rough, saw lotsof interesting things.
It was covid too.
They kept asking me, when wasyour last covid, um, test?
And I was like, kept showingthem all my codes 24 hours.

(48:59):
'cause you had to get a PCR testevery 24 hours.

Tina (49:02):
Oh my

Madeleine (49:02):
Um, there.
And so yeah, I ended up comingback to Melbourne after, so I
was originally gonna go back toCanberra, but because I was so
badly injured, I had to wait fora flight for a week.
'cause there was no flights outleft posting a week early.
So I think I was two weeks outand then, yeah, left posting a
week early.
I had to go into work, couldn'tspeak my lovely colleague, um,

(49:25):
read out my farewell speech toall the staff.
I couldn't talk.
Uh, there's all these photos ofme with all the staff.
They all wanted to have photoswith me, like, and I just sat
there in the middle of the room,like not, couldn't smile, just

Tina (49:38):
swollen face.

Madeleine (49:40):
Yeah.
And all injured and they'rejust, yeah, it was wild.
And so I had to travel on my ownback to China, uh, back to
Australia.
Had two 40 kilo bags with me.
Like it was just, yeah.
Anyway, so I got home and, andyeah, it, we, I spoke with my
husband.
We thought it was actuallybetter for me to go back to
Melbourne.
My parents will be home all thetime so they can help care for

(50:02):
me and stuff.
And so I was off work and I waslike, oh my God, I'm so bored.
Like, I'm so, I hate being onsick leave.
Like, I get so bored.
I was like, well, I may as welljust finish the novel.
Like, I can't work.
I was in between jobs, like whatwas I gonna do?
And, and so I was like, well, Imay as well just finish the
book.
So I did.

(50:22):
So I finished it on my parents'couch in Melbourne, which I
think was really special.
Being able, it's a book thatstarted in Canberra.
Went to China, finished inMelbourne, which was really nice
with my parents.
Anyway, um, so finished thatdraft, um, did all the edits on
it and, um, that was reallyimportant.
Took me may, I probably spentsix months editing, I would say.

(50:45):
So then it, it was about Marchin 2023 and I did a course with
the Australian Society ofAuthors.
I was doing a few courses withthem.
They're really helpful, so Ireally recommend those.
Um, just everything from likeediting to writing, you know,
um, the industry.
I did one called Pitch Perfect,um, which is all about how to

(51:05):
pitch your work to publishers.
And I knew nothing about theindustry.
I knew nothing about publishing.
I knew no authors.
I was an absolute nobody.
I had no social media.
I was just a no one.
And so I was coming from it fromthe scratch.
And I did some research thoughinto the publishers and I

(51:25):
thought.
Because I wanted to make sure Iwas pitching to the right ones.
And so for this book, veryMelbourne Book, Australian story
needs a lot of love, I think.
So I pitched it to two, twosmaller to mid-size publishers.
And as part of the A SAAustralian Society of ORs, they
do something called literaryspeed dating.

(51:48):
So the pitch perfect courseleads up to that and you get
three minutes to pitch your workover Zoom to a publisher.
You can choose two publishersonly or agents, so you can pitch
to other agents or publishers.
I knew nothing about agents orpublishers.
I was like, well, why would Iget an agent when I can just
pitch to a publisher?
Now I know.
Oh, sometimes it can be morestrategic

Tina (52:09):
things.
Yes.

Madeleine (52:09):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
And now I have an agent as well.
So, you know, um, just, I cameat it from the other angle
anyway, so, but I had done myresearch and so one of the
publishers was Ruby Ashby orfrom Affirm Press, and I
laughed, PIP Williams.
I watched all.
The interviews that Ruby haddone, listened to any podcasts
that she'd done so I could get asense of who she is.

(52:32):
I thought, oh, I reckon she'lllike this.
And they've done things likeSarah Pans Lost Athe, Gary, and,
um, the natural History of, um,I can't remember the name of it.
But anyway, lots of, kind ofMelbourne e books.
So three, I remember I was, Itook, I was working from home
and I, I was so nervous, soanxious, like sweating bullets

(52:57):
and

Tina (52:58):
Had you prepared a pitch?
Like, did you like have yourwords down?
Yeah.

Madeleine (53:02):
I had my words to a tea.
It was finishing at two minutesand 45, and I'm a former drama
student, so I was like, I got myperformance down pat.
Um, and I had the words there,but I knew them off by heart
anyway.
And at the end, Ruby said thatwas a fantastic pitch, and, um,

(53:24):
she said, I wanna know moreabout this.
And, and then it was like a, SAwere like, okay, your three
minutes are done.

Tina (53:30):
Oh,

Madeleine (53:30):
like, click, that's it.
That's all you get.

Tina (53:32):
yeah.

Madeleine (53:33):
And I remember just like jumping up in the air, like
it was just good to have Rubysay, oh, we really like the
pitch.
So both publishers ended up, um,a week later you find out if
they want to read themanuscript.
So both publishers requested it,which was brilliant.
Um, and so then you get an emailsaying, um, if you haven't heard

(53:56):
anything in three months, followup.
But otherwise don't follow upbefore three months.
And I would highly recommendeverybody, even if it's
tempting, do not just followwhatever they've told you and do
not follow up.
And so I didn't.
Three months ticked by.
And, um, do you want me to tellyou the story about Yeah.

(54:16):
Okay.
So three months ticked by, andat this stage I was feeling
pretty crap.

Tina (54:24):
Mm.
It's such a strange feeling,isn't it, to go from, especially
when those, um, when someonelike a SA or I know there's lots
of other organizations that dothese Zoom, um, calls with
editors and publishers andagents and they have control of
when the call finishes.
'cause it could be going reallygood, even if it's going really

(54:45):
bad or you just have no idea andthen it just disappears and
that's it all gone.
You can't ask a follow upquestion,

Madeleine (54:50):
that's right.
That's right.
And the other, well, the otherone went really well too.
And she actually, um, the, thepublisher there did ask a, a
question.
She asked about the research,like how accurate it is and, you
know, and I was like, okay, thisis good.
I'm getting, but you don't getmuch, you don't, you don't get
much sort of sense.
Three minutes.

Tina (55:07):
Gosh, it's so, and then to go from hearing absolutely
nothing for three months.
Yeah, I can

Madeleine (55:12):
Three months and I'd, I'd been, um, entering a, like
in the interim, and I, maybethis is a good top tip.
I hadn't been just sittingaround, I'd actually been doing
short fiction, so I'd beenwriting a lot of short stories.
I, from as soon as I finishedthe manuscript to then, and I
absolutely love writing shortstories.
I just had all this inspiration,creativity, and I'd ended a few

(55:32):
competitions, had a lot ofrejections, but also had a few,
like little nibbles like I thinkI mentioned on a previous
episode, I won$500 on a shortstory competition.
And I was like, oh.
And that's the first time I'dever been paid for my writing.
So just having that little bitof validation is good.
And I remember I was at the.
Sydney Writers Festival as justan attendee.

(55:54):
And I'd had her a few rejectionsand I was feeling pretty down.
It had been three months since,um, the publishers had had
requested the manuscript and I,and it had been over three
months now and I hadn't followedup and I was thinking to myself,
mm-hmm.
I think they would've, I thinkthey would've let me know by now
if they're interested.
Like they would've anyway.

(56:16):
That is a lie.
Do not ever believe that.
They are just really, reallybusy.
So if you haven't heardanything, that's actually good.

Tina (56:23):
yeah, yeah,

Madeleine (56:24):
good.
And so I was sitting at theSydney Writers Festival and
having a drink kind ofwallowing, and then I got like
the word from the Stringy Barkshort story competition that I'd
been like long listed for that.
And it was going into apublication and I was like, oh,
you know, just, I think having afew short story things in the
works gives you a little bit offun stuff.

(56:45):
So I would highly recommend it.
Anyway.
Um, so I was at work in theoffice and I was on a teams call
and I, my phone was just kind ofsitting next to me and I don't
normally check my phone at work,but for some reason it kind of
flashed up and a name flashedup.
And it was one of the, thepublishers who I'd pitched to

(57:08):
and I was in his team's call,and it was actually with like
Prime Minister and Cabinet andlike, so it was a pretty serious
meeting and I was briefing onthings and um, and I just
happened to glance down and Iwas like, oh, well I'll have a
quick sneaky peek.
And I was looking for the words,unfortunately.

Tina (57:26):
Yeah,

Madeleine (57:27):
Thank you for

Tina (57:28):
to get the tone.
Yeah.

Madeleine (57:30):
Yeah, trying to get the tone and like, I think the,
the start of it was like, thankyou so much for your submission
of the Butterfly Women.
We are really, we reallyapologize that it's taken so
long to get back to you.
And then I was like, oh, okay.
And I was like, like,unfortunately, I was like, oh,
we really enjoyed the, theManus, the first a hundred pages
you sent through, can you sendthrough the full?

Tina (57:49):
Mm.

Madeleine (57:50):
And I was like,

Tina (57:53):
Prime Minister and Cabinet.
I have to go now

Madeleine (57:54):
yeah, I know.
Literally, I, I, like, I wouldjust, my eyes were just like, oh
my gosh.
And then they're like, oh,Madeleine, Madeleine, what do
you think about this thing?
And I was like, ah.
Oh yeah, yeah.
Um, anyway, so,

Tina (58:08):
back to reality.

Madeleine (58:10):
oh, crazy.
So I raced home, sent itthrough, and then she came back
to me straight away and she'slike, thanks so much.
We'll be in, it was June in2023.
She's like, if you don't hearfrom us by the end of the year,
let us know.
So.
Six months.
Right.
And I was like, oh, okay.

(58:30):
So I kind of felt a bit, I waslike, okay, no, this is good.
But

Tina (58:33):
good to know though, isn't it too, like, it sounds like a
lot, but also thank you forletting me know.
I will not be checking my inboxevery three seconds thinking
that you're gonna get back to mein half a day, which we all do
when we know that's not reality.

Madeleine (58:47):
exactly six months.
I was like, okay, alright,that's, I'll just, yeah.
So then I, the, the good thingis like if you've got a bit of
interest, the other thing thatyou should do is also let any of
the other publishers or agentsknow if you're getting some
interest.
So I had submitted to anotherindependent publisher.
And so, and to affirm obviouslywho picked me up.

(59:07):
Um, and so I wrote to Ruby and Iwrote to this other publisher
and I was like, oh, um, thisother publisher's, you know,
shown some interest.
Ruby actually came back to me afew days later and she's like, I
haven't had a chance to dive in,but thanks for the reminder.
Um, I'll come back to you.
And I was like, okay, so what?
In six months?

(59:28):
I was like,

Tina (59:28):
Yeah,

Madeleine (59:29):
didn't really expect it.
And then the next day she cameback, she's like, I've dived
into the manuscript.
I am absolutely loving this.
Can we set up a Zoom call onMonday

Tina (59:43):
Wow.
Yeah.

Madeleine (59:45):
And I was like, holy moly, like dream publisher here,

Tina (59:50):
Yeah.

Madeleine (59:51):
Ruby, at a firm.
I was like, oh my God.
And so this is the moment whereyou just go, ah, okay, things
are moving.
And so I went back to.
That first one that said, oh,it's gonna be six months.
And she's like, right, okay, weare gonna get onto this now.

Tina (01:00:09):
So good.
Having that little bit ofleverage

Madeleine (01:00:11):
Leverage.
And then the third one came backand they're like, oh yeah, we
are really liking this.
Can you send the th thingthrough?
And I was like, I didn't knowwhat was happening.
Like, life just felt reallyweird.
And this is the moment foreveryone, everyone listening, if
this happens to you, this iswhen you go to get an agent.
Don't do it yourself.

(01:00:32):
Highly, highly recommend gettingan agent here.
I did not, and I found it trickyto navigate.
It was a difficult

Tina (01:00:38):
Well, you're essentially acting as an agent ward in that
situation, who would then say,leave it to me.
I'll take them all on, and then,um, liaise with all of them and
negotiate with all of them.
And that's a very hard thing todo as an author, especially as a
debut.

Madeleine (01:00:54):
Very, very tricky.
And especially as someone whoknows nothing about the
industry, I was messaging, I hadsome good friends who worked in
the industry, um, uh, who hadworked in when book selling day.
So I was getting their advice.
And their advice was, get anagent.

Tina (01:01:09):
Yeah.

Madeleine (01:01:10):
I didn't

Tina (01:01:10):
Which also feels incredibly hard.
It is also incredibly hard, andespecially, like you said, not
knowing anything about theindustry.
Who do you go to?
Where do you start?
So

Madeleine (01:01:19):
It's tough,

Tina (01:01:20):
yeah,

Madeleine (01:01:21):
but again, you have to do what's right.
And at the, in the time I feltlike what it was.
Right.
And do you know what, like I wasso lucky'cause like I did, I was
able to leverage a few things aswell.
So, um, you know, think,consider things like rising
royalties.
It's something that we.
You know, should be actuallypart of contracts.
And what I mean by that is whenyou hit a certain sale level,

(01:01:45):
like you've sold a volume, thatyou start getting higher
royalties off that, because thatbenefits both you and the
publisher.
If you're selling that manycopies, you are making money.
So there are things that you caninclude and the a SA does
provide that on their websitesand things that you can
leverage.
So yeah, I was able to dothings, some, some things like
that.
I'm sure it's not a faux pa totalk about things, but you know,

(01:02:06):
that these are just some of thethings to think about.
Um, so, um, I had that Zoom callwith Ruby and it was the best
phone call I've ever had in mylife.
We talked about the story, likeit, I'm like, oh, this is just
made up in my head and suddenlyI'm talking with someone really
important about it, that, thatfelt really surreal.
And at the end of the call, wespoke for about 40 minutes, and

(01:02:27):
at the end of the call she'slike, great.
Well, I'm keen I'll, um, get anoffer to you over next week.

Tina (01:02:33):
Love Ruby.
Love her.

Madeleine (01:02:35):
I, my husband was working from home as well, and I
came downstairs and he's like,how'd it go?
I said, oh yeah, they're, um,they're gonna send an offer over
next week.
And Pat's like, you have a bookdeal?
I.
like what?
I know.
I'm like, I know.
And then, yeah, and then theother publisher came back with a

(01:02:56):
offer as well.
And so then I had a choice.
But like for me, affirm, they, Ifelt really confident that they
understood what the book wasthat I wanted.
And that was the most importantthing, regardless of money, all
sorts like that.
And so even if I'd gotten anagent, I, again, regardless of
money, I think I would've wantedto go with a firm.

(01:03:17):
And I'm really, really happywith my choice.
I did my research, I knew thepublisher I wanted, and they
have been fantastic.
So,

Tina (01:03:26):
no, it sounds like that.
You know, it doesn't matter howmany times I hear those stories
of people getting their bookdeal, it just still gives me
goosebumps.

Madeleine (01:03:34):
I know.
It's, it's very

Tina (01:03:35):
that's an incredible story too.
And so well deserved, Madeleine,and now we're here.
So when was that?
So when did you sign 2023?

Madeleine (01:03:44):
Yeah, by the time I signed the contract, it was
like,'cause I went through, theother thing is I went through a
SA legal to do a contract checkand I would highly recommend
that for people who, without anagent, it's like$450.
Um, Victoria from a SA legal isfantastic.
Just get it done.
It, you set yourself up, youknow, and protect yourself.
Um, and I'm not saying thatthere was anything strange or

(01:04:06):
odd in the contract, but I thinkhaving that reassurance is
really worthwhile.
Alex Adset also offers that aservice as well.
She's a, um, literary agent, butyeah, she also offers to read
contracts.
So, um, yeah, so by the time wegot that sorted, it was August
and then, so yeah, I guess it'snow April, so it's been, um,
over 18 months, 20 somethingmonths.

(01:04:27):
I think these things take time.
Don't,

Tina (01:04:30):
take a long, long time.
Um, uh,

Madeleine (01:04:32):
I'm grateful for that time too.
It's been really good.

Tina (01:04:35):
When you think about it, you can't, you couldn't rush it
anymore really.
Like, No.
really a lot of downtime in thattime, which sounds pretty crazy,
but you know, you, even when wehand our work back, that's due
by a certain date, you know,there's all this other work
going on behind the scenes, wellbehind the scenes for us, but,
you know, actively in thepublishing house to get it to a
point.
And it absolutely takes all thattime.

(01:04:56):
Exactly.
Exactly.
There's a lot that they have tothink and now we're here two
days out.
two days out, so release date,April 29.

Madeleine (01:05:05):
That's right.

Tina (01:05:06):
exciting and book launch.
So this episode will go to airbefore your book launch, which
is sold out there.
Sorry, everybody who thoughtthey might go, um, but that
sounds incredible.
Can, can you tell everyone alittle bit about it anyway?

Madeleine (01:05:20):
Yeah, so, well, I've got a few other events as well
on next week.
So, um, I'll be in Sydney onFriday selling, uh, selling
books.
Oh my God.
Signing books.
I'll, I'll probably

Tina (01:05:31):
gotta sell.
them for people to sign them.

Madeleine (01:05:35):
Um, so that'll be really fun.
And I'm actually meeting up withsome of the Dimick head office
people around there, so formerDimmick bookseller, so it's nice
to be able to go and do that.
And then Saturday I'm on, um, ABC Melbourne Radio with Jacinta
Parsons at 11:20 AM So if youare in Melbourne, tune into
that.
Um, and then on Sunday is thebook launch in Melbourne.

(01:05:57):
It is sold out, but if you doapply to the wait list, um, I'm
just

Tina (01:06:01):
Still probably won't get in'cause the wait list is
probably really long.

Madeleine (01:06:04):
There are a few people on the wait list, but
we'll see.
I'm gonna send out an emailgoing here.
If there's anyone that can't

Tina (01:06:10):
need an after party that everyone can go to.

Madeleine (01:06:12):
We are having an after party at the Coopers in
5:00 PM so if you do miss outand you wanna come along, please
do.
Um, so, uh, and then on theTuesday for the following week,
yeah, I'll be doing a dim mix.
Um, first Tuesday book club.
I've got books in bars on theWednesday.
Um, and uh, yeah, then I can'tkeep up doing library events.

(01:06:35):
I've got some in Willis Hill,which I'm really excited about.
And Brighton Library with MarionTaf with another debut author
who was on the podcast.
So that'll be really fun.
So yeah, lots of things.
It's all on my website.
Um, so Madeleine Cleary Wright,so do come along and say hi.
I'd love to see you and chat.
And um, yeah, it's always funchatting to people who are fans

(01:06:57):
of the podcast, I'm sure.
And you've found that too, Tina,I think, when you've had

Tina (01:07:01):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's so nice.
And even Natasha Rye said, um,when she did an event up here in
Brisbane and um, yeah, there wasa couple people there that, um,
were podcast listeners as well.
So that, and so they came alongbecause they wanted to come and
see Natasha in the flesh, um,and hear her, her hear her
speak.
Um, so Madeleine, uh, I noticedthat there wasn't any Gold Coast

(01:07:26):
venues on your tour, but I willforgive you.
Book two.
Book two.
I wanna see you up here.

Madeleine (01:07:33):
That's right, that's right.

Tina (01:07:34):
definitely Brisbane.
Anyway,

Madeleine (01:07:35):
well, I looked at, I was, um, I had a quick chat with
Natasha Lester on Soren atSorento yesterday.
And I was like, are you okay?
Like, she's got, so, like herpublicity schedule is insane.
And she's like, I'm doing well.
I'm like, good, I'm glad.
So book two for, for, you know,next, my next book.
That's what I'm gonna hold outmy hopes for.

(01:07:57):
'cause we've gotta have goals.
Right.
And it'll be a national booktour.
We'll be, I'll be in the GoldCoast.
I'll make sure of it.
I'll just inform a firm thatthat's what I'll be doing.

Tina (01:08:07):
Yeah.
You manifest that and it willhappen.
And um, that's actually a reallygood promo for an upcoming
episode that I'm doing with JaneTara.
And we're talking all thingsmanifesting.
'cause she's a big believer init too.
And she's had some huge successand she did a lot of
manifesting.
So if you just, if you just planfor that to happen, Madeleine,
you're taking all the steps inthe right direction.

Madeleine (01:08:29):
Exactly.
So this will be it.
So, and look, you are having nowan interstate book launch as
well, so

Tina (01:08:35):
Yes,

Madeleine (01:08:36):
manifested that.

Tina (01:08:37):
I'm just, yeah, you just take the steps and it happens.

Madeleine (01:08:39):
That's right.

Tina (01:08:40):
That's my, that's my theory.
So Madeleine, that was such anincredible interview.
I so enjoyed hearing.
Everything about the book andall some things that I didn't
know yet.
And, and your story topublication.
Uh, and lots of, there's lots oftop tips in there too, but can,
do you have a top tip or

Madeleine (01:08:56):
I haven't thought about, oh my God, I'm not
prepared.
I didn't come with a top tip.

Tina (01:09:00):
I, it's a surprise that we do this.
Is it You had lots though.
You had lots of,

Madeleine (01:09:08):
Okay.
No, no, no.
Okay.
Okay.
Top tip.
Um.
Yeah, I, I think that my top tipis don't actually, I'm, I'm
gonna relate this to a story.
So, um, I was at SorrentoWriters Festival.
A woman put up a hand in theaudience and she asked a

(01:09:29):
question to the panel, and aquestion was, should I look to
get an international agent or anAustralian agent?
My book is both set in Australiaand overseas, and Isabelle
Comedi, who was one of theauthors on the panel, I think
her answer was really good.
Isabelle said, what stage areyou up to with your manuscript?
She said, oh, I'm about onequarter of the way through it.

(01:09:50):
And Isabelle said, don't eventhink about publication right
now and worry about getting anagent or who you should pitch to
or how to get your pitchperfected.
She's like, you.
Enjoy and focus on your writing.
That is the most importantthing.
Finding that joy, I think in thewriting and understanding why it
is your writing.

(01:10:10):
If you're writing in mindthinking, oh, I, I'm gonna write
it this way.
'cause that might actually moreappeal to an international
audience and then I might beable to get an international
agent and hey, I might be ableto get a, a three book deal with
Harper Collins and, you know,earn lots and lots of money.
No, no, no, no, no.
Write the story you wanna write.
That's my top tip.

Tina (01:10:31):
That is perfect and a perfect way to end the, this
amazing episode of the Book Dealpodcast.
Thank you Madeleine Cleary forallowing me to interview you.

Madeleine (01:10:39):
Thank you, Tina.
This was, I'm gonna say the mostfun interview.
Thank you.

Tina (01:10:46):
It's been my pleasure.

Speaker 3 (01:10:48):
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