Middle Grade Debut Special with Shara Curlett, Sandy Bigna and Lucie Stevens

Episode Transcript
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Tina Strachan (00:09):
This is the Book Deal podcast

Madeleine Cleary (00:11):
where you will discover the inspiring stories
behind your favorite books.

Natasha Rai (00:15):
We interview seasoned and debut authors, as
well as publishing industryprofessionals to bring you the
best tips and advice on how toget that elusive book deal.

So no matter what's.
Stage of writing your at.
We've got you covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.

I'm Madeline Cleary.

Natasha Rai (00:32):
And I'm Natasha Rai.

And join us as we pull back the curtain of
published authors

one deal at a time.
The book Deal podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners, the land and waters,which it's recorded on and pays
respect to their elders past,present, and emerging.

Welcome everybody to this very special episode of
the book Deal podcast, where wehave not one but three guests on
the show today.
Um, so it could go completelypear shaped, but we'll see how
we go because, um, I'm sure wehave lots to share and it's, but
it's gonna be lots of fun.
So, uh, because this week's appis a middle grade debut author

(01:16):
special, so I'm really excitedto introduce Lucie Stevens

Lucie Stevens (01:21):
Hi.
So excited to be here.

So excited to have you.
Um, and Shara Curlett

Shara Curlett (01:29):
Hi.
Thank you so much for having meaway from New Zealand.

anytime.
Uh, and Sandy Bigna,

Sandy Bigna (01:36):
Hi.
Lovely to be here.

And you're right, we are from all over Australia
at the moment.
Shara, you are normally in NewZealand, but yet you are, um, in
our wonderful, uh, land at themoment.
So can you tell us where, whereare you at the moment, SHA Are
you still in Brisbane?

Yes.
Yeah, I've just been, um, at theconference for CYA or see ya,
and I'm still at the hotel andthen I fly out to Sydney this
afternoon.
So.

Yeah.
And, and you have to leave veryshortly.
So, and then you've been inSydney for a bit and then
popping home, um, which is veryexciting.
And Sandy, where are you?

So I'm in Canberra, which is freezing.

Yeah, right.

So jealous of everyone who lives up north.
It's very cold.

it is pretty sunny and lovely up here in
Queensland on the Gold Coast.
Um, and Lucie, where are you?

I'm in Sydney and it's a beautiful sunny wind
Today here, actually the perfectkind of temperature for me.
I love cold, but sunny, that'smy favorite.
So I'm very happy with theweather at the moment.

Awesome.
Okay.
So, um, this is gonna be areally exciting episode for all
our listeners, especially thosethat are writing middle grade,
um, or writing any kind of kidlit and maybe wanting to venture
into middle ga, middle grade,um, and wanting to know, you
know, how to get published or,and how to write because you're
all actually writing quitedifferent genres, don't you, and

(03:01):
different styles.
So that's really interesting andsomething I'd love to, um, chat
to you about.
But first off, ladies,congratulations on your debut
books Releasing Into the Worldthis year.
It's very exciting.
Um, we always love to askauthors and put'em on the spot,
um, for their one-liners ortheir pictures for their books

(03:21):
because it's something that weall have to learn how to do as a
sparring, authors and debutauthors.
You know, how to give thatcracking one liner or, or your
pitch elevator pitch.
Um, so I am going to put you onthe spot and start with you
first.
Lucie.
Uh, you are, you are quitefamiliar with the publishing
industry as an, as well as aeditor and a freelance writer in

(03:43):
the past, aren't you?
But this is your first published

I am,

Yeah.

this is my first published novel, so actually I'm
a bit cheeky.
I steal my one-liner from JamesFoley, who is one of my
wonderful endorsers, and Ireally think he said it best.
He said that my novel is MaryPoppins, by way of Tim Burton,
which I think actuallyarticulates it beautifully.
So thank you, James Foley.
Um, but yeah, I could tell you alittle bit more about the story

(04:09):
if you'd like, but that's my one

Yeah, it's great.
One liner, please tell us more.

so RAP Nanny Tobins is a spooky middle grade
adventure fantasy story set inLondon in 1851.
And it's about a girl calledAlbert Albertine, who's much
beloved governess Nanny Tobinsdies unexpectedly in a horse
riding accident, but she's very,very dedicated to her job.
So she returns to the nurseryeach night at midnight to

(04:35):
continue her duties.
But unfortunately having a ghostfor a ES causes all kinds of
chaos in the household, and noneof the grownups believe Al
Albertine when she says NannyTobins has returned.
So she realizes fairly quicklythat if she doesn't find a way
to lay the ghost of her Es torest, some terrible consequences
are coming her way.

It's such a amazing book, Lucie, and such a,
um, unique plot, isn't it?
Unique idea and I love it.
I love what you said about, um,stealing the blurb or the one
liner from someone else.
'cause Yes, I'm the same sinceI've, my book's been out and
other people have reviewed it,I'm like, wow, you actually made
that sound so much better.
Much better.
So

Yeah, it makes it easier.

Yeah, maybe I'll start stealing this as well.
But, um, congratulations.
Um, and Sandy, you are involved,you've been involved in the Kid
Lit World for a while now too,haven't you?
As a blogger of Australian KidLit and a big supporter of, uh,
Australian Kid Lit, can you,yeah.
can you, introduce us to yourdebut novel?

yeah.
So, um, as you said, I've beenreviewing, um, kids' books on
Instagram for a while and, um,yeah, my debut novel is a verse
novel and it's about a girlcalled Bones.
She's 11 years old, alsoslightly spooky.
Um, bones is a bit lonely andshe likes to collect animal
bones and other discardedtreasures, and she sketches

(06:01):
them.
And then one day sheaccidentally brings to life the
skeleton of a small bird.
Um, but as it turns out, birddoesn't actually want to be
resurrected, and he asks bonesto reverse the accidental curse
that she's put on him.
So Bones needs to figure out thesecrets of the magic and then

(06:21):
also see if she can sum it up,the courage to say goodbye.
So yeah, I think like Lucie'sbook, it is, it's a little bit
quirky, a little bit, um, spookyand there's sort of themes of,
uh, friendship and hope, um, aswell.

Yeah.
I love that.
Yeah, you're right.
It's another unique storylinethat I love and the verse, it's
first verse novel.

Yeah.
So it's written inverse.

Yeah.
Can you tell us a little bitabout verse novel, or for people
who don't understand what Versenovel is, or maybe wanting to
write in that?

Yeah, so, um, verse novels, they follow a standard
narrative arc, so they've gotthe same sort of plot and
characters, um, but it's justwritten in verse instead of,
instead of your standardnarrative prose.
So, um, you know, I think a lotof people think it's like poetry
and it rhymes and that they'resort of standalone verses and
they are standalone verses.

(07:13):
But, um, they do follow thatsort of standard narrative arc
as well.
And, and I suppose it's, they'rea bit more succinct.
Um, you've really gotta get tothe heart of the story and to
choose your words verycarefully.
So there's lots of white space,um, around the words and really
good for reluctant readers.

Yeah.
And how many words normally is amiddle grade verse?
Is there rules around that?

Um, there are, 'cause when I first wrote it, it
was way too long.
It was about.
33,000 words.
And then I was encouraged to cutabout 15,000 words.
So, um, got it down to about22,000 words.
So ideally between 20 and 22,000words, which is an advantage,
right?
Because they're shorter towrite, hardly recommend it.

But there's lots of illustrations in yours too,
isn't

They're are some beautiful illustrations by Yeah,
gorgeous, uh, line drawings,which takes up a bit of, uh,
space as well in the book.
So it looks quite a thick book,but it's actually very quick to
read.

Yeah.
Yeah.
No, it's incredible.
So, um, Shara, Can you pleasegive us, uh, your one-liner and
your pitch and tell us a littlebit about your debut book?

All right.
Thank you so much for having me,Tina.
It's so great being on thepodcast.
I've listened to it for a verylong time, ever since you
started, and you and Madelineare doing a wonderful job.
Um, so welcome to Miracle isabout an 11-year-old girl who is
cursed by chaos and can never goto a magical island nearby.

(08:44):
Uh, that basically givesvisitors magic for 24 hours.
So when she's invited to go, shesuspects that there is more to
it.
So I.
It's, it's basically asupercharged, magical adventure.
It's fast paced.
Um, and the inspiration camefrom what if Charlie and the
chocolate factory was a magicalisland instead?

I love that.
That's so good.
Great Comp ti uh, like a greatcomp title.
Title as well, which is reallyimportant.
And I just love that Curse byChaos thing.
It's great.
Such a good hook.
Such a good hook, and an anincredible book as well.
So here on the book dealpodcast, we love hearing, well,
mostly I love hearing about, um,publication journeys.
I just, this is one of thereasons why we started the

(09:30):
podcast'cause we just, I justcan't get enough of here Publica
publication journeys, um,'causethey're so different.
Everybody has a completelydifferent story.
They're very unique and it'simportant for people who are
listening to the pod.
'cause we have lots of listenerswho are aspiring authors and I
just really wanna know how toget there and how do I, how do I
get my books published and youknow, what are the steps?

(09:53):
And you know, I guess there's afew things that are common for
everybody.
And I mean, getting, actuallyputting your work out there is
probably the number one stepthat we all take.
But.
Everybody just, it's just adifferent path and we just have
to forge our own pathwayforward.
So, um, but before I get intothat, can someone, um, just

(10:13):
explain for people who arelistening, what middle grade is,
uh, some sort of, you know, somerules around that because some
people don't understand whatmiddle grade is.
Who wants to jump in?

I feel like Sandy would probably be the best
person to represent the Kid Litcommunity here, if you're okay
with that,

Yeah, yeah, no, that's fine.
Um, I think the issue withmiddle grade is I think there's
lower middle grade and uppermiddle grade.
So the general rule is, um, sortof between, I'd say eight to 12
years old, categorize as middlegrade.
But I think within that spacethere's also your lower middle

(10:51):
grade, sort of maybe for eightto nine year olds or eight to 10
year olds.
And then you've got your uppermiddle grade, which can actually
extend up to 13, uh, years oldas well.
So, but I think generallyspeaking, I'm sitting on the
shelves, it would be, uh, eight,eight to 12 I think.
Does everyone think that soundsaccurate?

Yeah, it's usually what they market it as,
isn't it?
And I mean, but also regardlessof what they market it as, it's
what the reader feelscomfortable reading or what the
parent who's buying the bookfeels as suitable for their
child, right?
So they could be young andreading up just'cause they're
very clever at it.
But also older kids can bereading middle grade because
that's the level that they're atand that's what they're

(11:33):
comfortable with.
And it doesn't matter as long asthey're reading, isn't it?
Um, yeah.
And what about the length, um,Shara, do you have some comments
on like what the length of thosebook, of what a middle grade
book usually is?
And it sometimes depends ongenre, doesn't it?

It does.
And I think it's in flux at themoment, I think because readers,
uh, it's hard to grab theirattention and if it's not fast
paced, it's easy to lose them.
Um, so I think as a standard, 40to 50,000 words, 60,000 words at
the max, um, I write fantasy,which has a little bit more
leeway, um, in saying that I, Ican see publishers moving

(12:10):
towards the 20,000 middle gradespace because all, all we want
to do is get kids reading andif, if long books are not
capturing all of them, perhapsshorter books will, I think
there's, there's room to becreative.
I, I personally think, but yeah,50, I'd say 50,000 is the

(12:31):
standard, but I think watch thespace.

Yeah.
And what about, um, the content,Lucie?
Have you found that there's anyrules sort of around like
character ages and what can andcan't be written into a middle
grade?

Yeah, definitely.
I mean, I think most of themiddle grade books are about
friendship, family, courage,resilience, these kinds of
themes, which personally, Ithink are universal themes that
are applicable to everybody atevery age.
And I think that's why a lot ofolder readers and adults also
can enjoy middle grade fictionbecause these, these are

(13:09):
resonant themes through ourwhole journey of life.
Right.
So, um, and age-wise.
So I did a master's in writingfor children and young adults
over in Manchester, um, a fewyears ago.
And they told us that the ruleof thumb was that your
protagonist should be ideallytwo years older than your

(13:29):
intended reader.
Um, and that's actually a rulethat I have defied in my novel
for strategic reasons, butthat's, that's what we were
taught.
Um, but I think, you know,there's always exceptions to the
rule.
I think what's what's importantis if it's, it's done
deliberately, not just sort ofrandom.
Like I think if you wanna defy aconvention, you have to have a

(13:50):
reason behind it.
But yeah, I think generally, um,it's good if kids are reading
about a character that's alittle bit older than them.
So it's a little bit sort ofaspirational in a way.

Yeah.
Yeah.
And also I think sometimesthere's, um, a note, not really
any romance in middle grade isthere, like you tend to stay
away from that.
Um, and yeah, like you said,there's still that sort of
message at the core, but youdon't wanna be obvious about it.
A all like, I think in juniorfiction you can be a little bit
more, um, straightforward withyour, with the, your message at

(14:23):
the end, you know that, youknow, the characters learned
their lesson and things likethat.
But in middle grade, like you,they, you just can't be obvious
with that.
I think, hey, you've gotta sortof weave it in there a little
bit better, but still sort stillhave it, if that makes sense.

Yeah, definitely

Yes.
Kids don't like being taught,especially not through their
books.
Right.
Um, okay, cool.
All right, so publicationjourneys.
Uh, Sandy, I'm gonna start withyou.
Can you please tell us, evenback from when you first started
writing, how did you startwriting and, and what started,
um, you on that journey, andthen how did you actually get to
signing on the dotted line ofthat elusive book deal?

Yeah, well, it goes way back for me because I was
that kid that sort of grew upreading and writing from a
really early age, and I wasreally lucky to be surrounded by
books and reading.
Um, my siblings wrote and weread our stories aloud to each
other.
Um, so when I was about six, Ithink I thought I'd become a
published author, probably bythe ripe old age of 18.

(15:25):
Sadly, that did not happen.
Um, the, the pathway topublication was a lot bumpier
and a lot longer than that.
Um, along the way I, um, hadlots of.
Sort of writing highs and lows.
Um, I went on to study somecreative writing at University
of Canberra, and then I went onto work as a children's

(15:48):
librarian for a while and thatactually reignited my love of,
uh, children's books.
Um, and I sort of thought, ah,yeah, I actually wouldn't mind,
you know, I was writing atuniversity.
I think I was writing more sortof literary fiction and, and
stories for adults.
Uh, mostly short stories.
And then I, um, you know,reading the books to the

(16:10):
children in the libraries, itsort of reignited my passion for
children's books.
Um, so I did submit, um, topublishers, lots of rejections.
Um, and, and then I think, youknow, I had three children sort
of two years apart and that Ithink that really diverted some

(16:32):
of my creative energy for awhile, like.
We can probably relate to that.
Um, that it just, you know,let's face it, kind of
exhausting.
Um, so I was still, you know, Iwas still, uh, attending
workshops where I could, um,some online, some in person and
daydreaming of ideas.

(16:52):
Um, then, uh, as the, as thekids got a little bit older,
that creative energy came backto me.
And, um, like I said before, Ithink it was, it was about 2020
when I discovered theBookstagram community on
Instagram.
And I was like, oh, here's thisspace where people are reviewing

(17:13):
books, chatting about books.
And I thought I could do that.
You know, I'd, I'd love toreview children's books.
Um, so I set up my own platformand started connecting with
other creatives and, um, I wasmeeting children's authors and
illustrators, publishers weresending me books to review.

(17:34):
And I was, you know, makingthese connections and really
loving what I was doing.
Um, I, I was still writing, butnot submitting as much.
But then in 2022, I think itwas, I thought, okay, now I've
gotta get serious.
If I wanna get somethingpublished myself, I've actually
gotta carve out the time and,um, think of myself as a writer,

(17:57):
not just, um, you know, lovedreviewing, um, other people's
books, but I really wanted tobe, be an author myself.
So that's when I sat down tostart focus on writing, um,
little Bones, which had beenswirling around in my head in
various formats over the years.
But, um, when I started writingit, it just wasn't working.

(18:21):
It was, um, the narrator wasdifferent to Bones.
It was a, um, it was a girloriginally who could see animal
ghosts, so similar but notquite, not quite working.
Um, it wasn't a verse novel, itwas just, um, standard prose and
it just, you know, it didn'thave that magic vibe.

(18:41):
Um, but then at some point itjust, this strong visual image
came to me of this girl.
She was dressed all in darkclothes and she was digging
down, um, near water with astick.
And immediately I knew that thisgirl was lonely, that she'd lost
something, and that she wasdigging for animal bones, which.

(19:03):
Seems very random, but I thinkI've always had this kind of
quirky obsession with, I don'tknow, like Halloween spooky
stories.
was inevitable.
There was gonna be some sort oftalking skeleton in my first
book.
Um, so once I had nailed hervoice and then, um, the format,

(19:27):
because her story would only betold as a verse novel.
It wasn't really a consciousdecision to write it as a verse
novel.
Um, it just, that's just the wayit came out.
That's when I was like, okay,this feels right, this, I had
that, um, excitement get whenyou, you feel like you've nailed
it.
Um, so I'd connected with, uh,Julianne Grasso on Instagram who

(19:55):
hosts the middle grade Mavenspodcast, and she was doing pitch
assessments and so I sent.
My pitch in the first few pagesof the manuscript, she was
really enthusiastic and sheencouraged me to keep pushing
through and finish it ahead ofthe Kid Vic Conference.
Um, which was happening in, um,I think it was April, 2023.

(20:17):
So she said, just push through,get a finish manuscript.
So I largely wrote themanuscript, the rest of the
manuscript over the summer of 2022, 20 23, completely ignored my
kids, locked myself in a roomyou can entertain yourselves.
Um, and that, and then had themanuscript written and booked an

(20:39):
in-person assessment with, uh,Danielle Binks, who was
literally my dream agent.
And she got back to me beforethe conference and said, oh, you
know, I really like thismanuscript.
Can you send me the full thing?
I was trying not to get my hopesup as you do, you know, and

(20:59):
you've had lots of rejections.
I was like, yeah, that's, youknow, just, just be cool.
Like, she's probably just wantsto, you know, read it and gimme
some feedback.
Um, so I went down to theconference, had a chat with
Danielle and we were justtalking.
She was lovely.
And then, um, halfway throughshe said, yeah, you know what?
I really love this manuscriptand I wanna offer you
representation.

(21:20):
And I was just like,

That's the dream story,

It was, yeah, I was just, it was so unexpected.
Uh, you know,'cause you try andkeep your hopes very

Yeah.
You do.
You try and keep them.
Yeah.
Just to self preservation.
Right.
You don't wanna keep gettinghurt.
Yeah.

Yeah.
Um, so yeah, it sort of, it sortof went from there.
And then of course, you know,the.
The manuscript had to go out onsubmission and sort of waiting
to see what publishers, if any,would get back.
So again, it's keeping thosehopes manageable.
And then UQP, um, indicated theywere interested in setting up a

(21:58):
Zoom meeting and, um, KathyLance, um, had a chat with me
and Danielle, and then not longafter that, she got back to, um,
Danielle and said she'd like tooffer a contract and a two book
deal with UQP.
So that's basically, sorry,quite a long story, but how it,

(22:20):
um, yeah, how it came about andthen signing that contract and
it was, you know, a dream cometrue after the many, many, many
years of rejections and puttingthings on hold and having kids
and, you know, feeling like itmay never happen.

Yeah, no, that's such an important and incredible
story, important story though,because, um, your rejections can
really get you down.
And that's why I just lovesharing these stories because
it's so important for people tohear these, um, really great
outcomes.
And had you have, let thoserejections get you down and stop

(22:56):
you from writing or doubtyourself to a point that you
just don't wanna submit anymore,you'd never be here now with
this book, which ev, which hashad such amazing reviews and,
and feedback and it's, it's justbeen incredible.
Congratulations, Sandy.
So tell us, um, two book dealsthough, is the second book
related to little bones or.

No, so the second book, uh, will be completely
different still.
Um, yeah, it's still trying toget the magic that I felt with
Little Bones.
I think it's that second book.
Pressure that people talk about.
And your head space is stillobviously with that first book.
Yeah.
I wanna hear Lucie's story aboutthis.

(23:39):
'Cause I know she's doing a booktoo.
Um, or has done, but um, yeah,it's, it's, it's completely
different to Book one wherethere's no pressure, you're just
doing it for yourself

Just writing words and throwing them away and
just taking your time andAbsolutely.

Well, you would know about this too, Tina, with
a booked, you know, your

And three.
I know.
Yeah.
Yeah.

goodness.

It's different when there's a deadline.
We could do a whole episode onsecond book syndrome, I'm gonna
call it.
It is, yeah.
And it's across, it's across theboard and it's, yeah.
Lots of people are chattingabout it, but that's incredible.
Um, incredible story.
Um, so can, so yeah.
Lucie, let's move on to you.
Tell us about your story from,you know, when you first started

(24:23):
writing and, and how thathappened and, um, to signing on
that dotted line.

Well, I, a, a lot of what Sandy said resonates
with me too, actually.
So, um, my publication journeyhas also been very, very long.
I've wanted to be an author, uh,specifically a novelist since I
was really a very young child.
I think even before I reallyunderstood what an author was, I

(24:50):
knew I wanted to, to make booksand write books.
Um, so I, I had sort of triedreally hard, um, in my younger
years.
Um, same as Sandy thought.
Oh yeah.
By the time I'm, I thought, yes,definitely by the time I'm in my
early twenties I will havepublished a novel, but, uh,
that's not how it came about.
So, um, sort of the, thepublication journey for RIP,

(25:15):
nanny Tobins started with, uh, abig disappointment.
Um, I had been working onanother novel, uh, as part of my
dissertation for my master'sprogram, and I had secured
representation and I'd also hada few successes that I think
Sandy can also relate to.
So, Varuna Fellowship, Ireceived an a SA mentorship, um,

(25:38):
to support the development,which you know, was so exciting
and.
Very much a, a high and sort ofa vote of confidence.
So, uh, but this novel was notthe first novel that I'd been
through that process with.
So there was one even beforethat that I'd also received a
UNA fellowship for, and an a SAmentorship for, and it hadn't
secured publications so.

(25:58):
When I was working on this otherone as part of my dissertation,
I thought finally, finally, thisis going to happen.
This is going to be the one thatsort of, um, you know, heals all
the heartbreak from the previousbig disappointment and
heartbreak.
So anyway, um, my agent startedshopping That one around, that
one was, um, so this washappening in, um, in 2022.

(26:23):
And after a couple ofsubmissions, which were
rejections, we got some feedbackabout it.
And my agent said to me, I thinkwe need to pull this from
submissions for the moment, andyou need to have a rethink about
it.
And I was sort of all, you know,ready to jump in.
And I said to her, I know how tofix it.
I know how, how I can changethings and it'll be great.

(26:46):
And she said, no, no, no, no,no.
You need to take a break fromthis novel.
You need to step away from it.
And I thought she was gonna sayto me, you know, why don't you
take up crocheting or somethinglike this?
And she said, I want you to goaway and write me something fun.
So, um, at this point I was, Iwas devastated to have to go
through this whole sort ofprocess of rejection and

(27:07):
heartbreak again.
And, um, I also had a very, veryheavy.
Uh, client workload.
So I work as a freelance editor,so I was working, you know, an
average of six, six and a halfdays a week.
And I thought if I don't enrollin some kind of program or
structure to support my writing,I'm just not gonna do it at the
moment because I was soheartbroken and feeling very

(27:30):
sort of de-energized and notvery motivated about it.
Um, but I had mentioned thisidea of this ghost governess to
my agent Dean, and she said, Ilove it.
Write that, write that story.
So I hadn't really done a lot ofthinking about the story.
Um, but I enrolled in a fourmonth program run by Sarah
Sentis, who, if you've everworked with her, you will be

(27:51):
familiar with her unique brandof magic.
Um, so this great four monthprogram called the Word River
and I decided that by the end ofsix months I wanted to have a
first draft of this ghostgovernance novel.
I didn't do any planning, whichis highly unusual for me.
I'm not a total planner.
I'm a bit of a, like halfwaybetween a planner and a pants.

(28:11):
Um, but I didn't do anyresearch, which is kind of funny
'cause it is a historical novel.
But I thought, I'm just gonnasit down, smash out a, a first
draft in six months and see if Ican do it.
And just really lean into thejoy of creating, not worry about
this going anywhere, just reallywrite something for myself and
have fun with it.

(28:31):
So I did that.
I managed somehow, I still don'tknow to this day how I managed
to pull it off with the workloadI had at the time, but.
I did end up with a first draftin that period, and I sent it to
Dean, my agent thinking, um,she's probably, I had some
concerns about it.
Um, the tone, the voice of thenovel is very, very quaint, and

(28:54):
that's for a particular reason.
And without this sort of quaintvoice, the whole novel really
wouldn't work because it's the,it's the point of view of the
protagonist, um, that reallymakes the whole story work.
So I thought it's, this voice isnot gonna land with a
contemporary audience.
So I had very low expectationsand I didn't wanna do any more
work on it until Deanne hadlooked at it.

(29:15):
Um, but she came back to me veryquickly and she said that she
absolutely loved it and to keepgoing.
So she gave me some notes and Ispent another sort of probably
about six to eight monthsworking on it, sent it back to
her and she said, okay, let'sgive this one a go.
So she started sending it out.
Uh, a first rejection camethrough.

(29:35):
The publisher absolutely lovedit, but she couldn't get it
through acquisitions, so I wasstraight away.
I was like, oh, no one's gonnawant this novel.
You know, people might love it,but they don't think there's a
market for it.
And I was very kind of like, woeis me.
Then we got a second rejectionand I was like, yeah, this is,
you know, hard evidence thatthis, this novel is not going

(29:56):
anywhere.
And I'm sort of back to squareone again.
Um, and then one day Dean calledme, which was really unusual.
Normally we only evercommunicate via email, and she
said, Lisa Berryman from HarperCollins wants to speak to you.
And I was like, why, why, why?
Um, and she said, oh, she justwants to have a chat and get a
feel for you as a person.

(30:17):
So we lined up a call and um,had a lovely conversation with
Lisa.
Lisa is also another verywonderful, magical person.
And, um, she said to me, okay,um, I really.
This manuscript, I'm gonna shareit with my editorial team and
then we're gonna, um, sort oftake it from there.
So her team loved it and shethen came back and said, we're

(30:39):
now gonna take it toacquisitions.
But of course, after so muchhistory of rejection, uh, like
Sandy, I just didn't wannabelieve that maybe this would
happen this time.
Um, and so I really just.
I kept my expectations very low.
But, um, and there was sort ofa, a, a bit of a gap between

(31:00):
hearing that and the actualmeeting.
And in that time, DeAnn had comeback and said to me, they're now
discussing a two book deal, justto let you know, make sure you
have another idea up your sleevekind of thing.
Um, and at that time I did haveanother idea up my sleeve, but
it was a different idea to theone that I ended up pitching to
Lisa.
Um, so there is a sequel comingout for RIP, nanny Tobins.

(31:21):
It'll be coming out mid 2026.
And I literally had the idea forit.
The day before my meeting withLisa to pitch my idea, I was
cleaning the shower.
I had this amazing flash ofinspiration and I was like, oh.
That's what I should bepitching.
Um, and uh, and she loved it.
So there was then a sort of aperiod of time, so this was
towards the end of 2023 now.

(31:45):
Um, and of course we werefalling into the holiday period
at the end of the year.
And, uh, things went quiet for alittle while.
And of course I started to panicthinking, okay, things have
changed.
It was at the time to, um, when,uh, target was bought by Kmart
and this had caused a little bitof instability in the market.

(32:05):
And I thought, oh no, you know,this is gonna have
ramifications.
Um, but actually what washappening was DeAnn was just
doing a brilliant job as anagent.
And, um, you know.
Negotiating some courses in mycontract to my benefit.
So, um, that's really what washappening behind the scenes
while I was meanwhile panicking.
Um, and then, yeah, so I thinkin January, 2024, I signed my

(32:28):
two book deal with HufferCollins, which just blew my
mind.
Um, although it was quite funny'cause it was done
electronically, so it was almosta little bit anti-climatic.
It was just like clicking a box.
It wasn't this sort of romanticnotion of printing out a copy or
receiving a hard copy in themail and getting a beautiful pen
and signing on the dotted line.
Um, but of course it was stillan amazing moment.

(32:51):
Um, but a very long lead timeinto publication then.
Um, and that was strategic sothat I would have time to write
the sequel, uh, before, youknow, get a lot of the sequel
kind of written before the firstone came out.
So yeah, that's, that's sort ofthe journey.

It's incredible journey.
Um, yeah, it's, it's a bit, um,when things go quiet, it's your,
your or your brain just goes tothe, oh yeah, they've just
decided they don't want itanymore.
I'm just gonna get an emailevery, any minute now saying,
actually rethought that we aretaking it off the table.
Uh, you know, I look, it'sprobably happened before, but

(33:28):
it's, um, yeah, it's just whereyour brain goes, isn't it?
But it's usually always for agood thing.
Um, I'm also with Lisa Berrymanfrom Harper Collins, so, um,
yes, I, I know how exciting thatis.
If you get a call from Lisa,it's usually

Yes, it's a thrill.

Um, but Lucie, uh, congratulations on the two
book deal.
I can't wait to hear more fromRIP.
Uh, then Tobins, and I agreewith you, that quaint voice
though that you mentionedbefore, I think that's
absolutely what sets it apartand it makes it refreshing big
in a way.
Um, I feel like there hasn'tbeen much like that lately, and
I, I think that's what's beenreally nice about it as well,

(34:06):
um, from my point of view.
Anyway, that, um, yeah,something, something different
and, you know, I loved it.
It was a, it's a lovely journey.

Thanks Tina.

so Shara, can you tell us a little bit about, uh,
your unique journey topublication?
Can you start back from when youfirst started writing as well?

Oh, I'd love to.
I, I think my, my one is atypical story.
Um, a lot of people, they'llhave their first child and then
they'll get immersed into thepicture book world, or they've
wanted to do it their entirelife.
Um, I had no idea I wanted to doit in my entire life.
Uh, basically I just wrote allthe time.

(34:46):
But, um, it wasn't until I hada, a year where I describe it as
the opposite of four weddingsand a funeral, and I had an
immense amount of grief and Ihad no idea how to process it.
Um, I ran a business at thetime, so I got, I was just stuck
into that.
I, and I just randomly startedwriting a novel, and in the
past, I'd, I'd write a novel tohelp kind of process things, but

(35:08):
I'd never finish it.
I'd write like a few chapters,um, except for when I was young,
where I'd write 200 page refillpads.
Um.
But this, this time was quitedifferent.
Um, I wrote, I ended up writingtwo 90,000 word novels.
One was a ya and one was anadult sci-fi.
Um, and then I just put themaway, like I just put them on

(35:33):
the desk and continued on withmy business.
Um, and it was, it was socathartic for me.
It was just, by the time Ifinished them, I'd kind of
processed all my emotionsthrough my words and it, in the
end, it was just a deep breath.
And I was like, that's, I reallyneeded that.
Um, but it kept, it kept goingaround in my mind.

(35:55):
Um, and then the following year,I, I fell pregnant and I just
said to my husband.
I can't continue this business.
It's too full on.
I, I think I want to become awriter.
And he bless him.
He's so, he's so amazinglysupportive.
He was just like, okay.
That was pretty much just thatword Okay.

(36:17):
With the, with a slight pitch init.

And a little twitch in his eye, like,

Yeah, yeah.
Um, and so I went through theprocess of selling my business,
um, and then by the time I hadmy first child, I was rewriting
the YA novel into a middle gradebecause I had felt that the ya
wasn't quite the right space forit.
Uh, and then I injured myselfand I was bedridden for about

(36:45):
six weeks with a broken toe anda, um, my, a lower lumbar dys
bulge that was quite severe.
Um, and.
My daughter was only seven weeksold, so we had family support.
Yeah, it was just horrendous.
So we had family support comingin and I think the moment I

(37:05):
started to feel like it wasoverwhelming me, I basically
just wrote, so I was justwriting on my phone.
Um, fast forward a few years andI'd a few courses through the
Australian Writers Center.
Um, and I had my son, and thenhe was born with, uh, what's
called Laryngomalacia, which isa floppy larynx basically.

(37:28):
So every time I tried to lay himdown to go to sleep, he would,
he would just get really, reallyupset.
And then when he was sick, hewould start to turn blue.
So I basically spent the entirefirst year with him in upright
in my arm so he could breatheproperly.
And I just adapted like.
I just, I just wrote through itand I kept myself awake all
night because it was, you know,you've got your, your baby and

(37:50):
you're scared of that whole bedsharing side of things.
And so I just made it safe and Iwrote, and that kept me awake.
Um, and from there I did a fewmore courses.
And I think the most pivotalpart was forming a community.
Um, my, I was in the duck pondand I just, I was in the midst

(38:11):
of motherhood.
Um, and this was just before Ihad my son.
And basically I just put it outthere.
Are there any moms who wouldlike to do critiques, who don't
want any pressure?
Because it's hard enough as itis.
And I said, basically, if youwant to have a critique, you
just put your hand up and if youcan help, you'll say yes.

(38:32):
And it, it was so low key.
And there was about 10 or 11 ofus, I think.
Um.
To begin with.
And it was just the mostbeautiful coming together of
like-minded people in the samesituation.
Um, feeling quite lonely priorto that moment because we didn't
really have our people.

(38:52):
And from there it just, it justgrew and now it's just a
beautiful small group of peopleand we share each other on, and
it's, it's just amazing.
Um, and so I am very terrible atsubmitting.
I would write a novel.
I'd submit it once or get itassessed.
Um, CYA was a huge part of that.
Beck.
I did all the things.

(39:13):
I invested in an editor.
I did.
Um, I use beta readers,professional beta readers.
Um, and then I, I, um, I wouldsubmit it.
I'd get a rejection and they'relike, and revenge, right?
Another novel.
So.
I think it was, I think it wasStephen King who said something
along the lines of, but alsomany people before him.

(39:36):
It takes, um, the first 1million words you basically
throw away.
And I love to just say that Itweak that slightly by saying it
for me personally, it took amillion words to really
understand and find my ownvoice.
And now I get it.
It's like a light bulb.
Once I understood vo voicecompletely, I was just like,
I've got it now.

(39:57):
And, um, I was starting to godown the illustration path and
get distracted by that.
And then I realized, no, I needto focus on my writing.
That's my, that's my heart.
That's, that's my, um, my sanitywhen all the world around me is
just going crazy.
Kids are screaming mum everyfive seconds.

(40:17):
Um, so I use writing as a formof therapy.
And so I, I realized at thatmoment, no, I need to focus on
the words.
I'm getting distracted andmiddle grade is my voice.
Um.
And then I wrote Welcome toMiracle.
Um, and I submitted it to anagent and she kind of, she was
kind of half on it, but notquite.

(40:39):
Um, and then I had an assessmentat CYA with LaRay Fosse from
Scholastic Australia.
And we, you know, when you speakto someone who just seems to get
your writing, um, like I was, Iwas talking with her and she was
really positive about it, and Ijust felt that uplifting moment
where, oh, maybe this is it.

(41:00):
Maybe this is the one.
I knew there was somethingspecial about the book when I
wrote it.
The voice was just on adifferent level.
Um, and then she said she askedfor the full, um, and then four
months passed and I just wroteit off.
So I was like, no, okay.
It just didn't work.
That's okay.
Um, and I just, but within thattime, I just started writing a

(41:22):
new novel.
So.
Um, at the conclusion of thatfour months, I get an email from
La LaRay and it's basicallysaying, uh, I loved it.
We'd love to make you an offer.
And honestly, like, I think I'vesaid before, I totally dropped
my knees ugly, cried on thefloor.

(41:42):
My little boy came up to me, hewas like, mommy, are you okay?
And I'm like, they're happytears.
Um, and not that I write forpublication, but it was, it was
one of those moments where I wasjust like, this, this just
validates all my hard work.
Like, yeah.
Yeah.
It was, it was such a greatmoment.
And working with Scholastic wasjust incredible.

(42:03):
They're just such an amazingteam.
Um, yeah.
And that's, that's my journey.

That's an incredible story.
Shara, there's so many thingsthat I wanna dip into a little
bit there.
But one thing that I was hopingthat you could explain for
listeners is the duck pond,because a lot of that's been
very helpful for lots of people.
Um, but for our kid that authorswho are listening, can you
explain, explain what the duckpond is and how people can maybe
get on board with that as well.

Yes.
Well, uh, Jen Stoa has, uh, Ithink a lot of people know Jen
Stoa.
Um, she has been in the.
Industry for a long time, andshe's been such a huge champion
of other writers.
She's, she has a few courses.
She, um, and she formed a groupcalled The Duck Pond, which is,
it was just a community to beginwith.

(42:51):
Um, and then obviously like it'shard as a writer to, to get
money.
And then she made it a, she madeit a group where you subscribe
and I fully went along with thatbecause I valued what she did.
She brought on master classesand all that kind of thing.
Um, sad, sadly, it's wrapped upnow.
Uh, she, this was her final yearand I think, I think she's,
yeah, I think she's left justsuch a huge legacy on the

(43:14):
industry.
And, and that's, that's not itfor her.
I think she's diving intoillustration and I'm sure like
she'll find a way to, to comeback.
But I, I think that group inparticular is because I'm a New
Zealander, I don't think I'veeven mentioned that.
Um, I live in Auckland, NewZealand, and I didn't really
find a place within.

(43:36):
The New Zealand community, orperhaps I didn't search for it.
Um, I just found myself in theAustralian community, and
honestly, it's just like a womanbrace.
Um, everyone, honestly, everyonein the Kid lit community over
there is just so amazing, sokind, so generous and, um, yeah.
And, and Jean Stewart embodiedthat, that was, she was the

(43:57):
epitome of that.
Yeah.

Yeah, well, you know, it, we did find, like we
only just met in person on theweekend, didn't we?
At the CYA

yes.
Uh,

um, the amount of people that said, are you that
thought I was you and you wereme,

I.

and that we really are, are you sure you're
not sisters?
Oh, it's great.
So, you know, you came over hereand found your Aussie sister and
I'm so glad I found my NewZealand sister.

I know, I know.
And that, that was totally whatit felt like.
We've built these relationshipsonline and meeting you on per in
person.
It was, it was just like, oh mygosh, my, my friend I haven't
seen in so long.
Yeah.
It was so wonderful.
And now I've gotta figure out away to move to the Gold Coast.

Yes, please.
Well, we are here and ready foryou to join us and you can say
you're an Aussie writer if youwant, but no New Zealand or New
Zealand writers are amazing aswell.

Natalie Kyriacou (44:56):
Hi everyone.
I am Natalie Kyriacou, and I'mthe author of a new nonfiction
book called Nature's Last DanceTales of Wonder in An Age of
Extinction.
It's out on August 26th, andit's published by a firm press
through Simon and Schuster.
If you've ever wondered howanimal genitalia is uncovering

(45:16):
bias in evolutionary theory, orwhy Australia lost a war to an
emu, or how the cure to canceris in nature and maybe going
extinct, well then this book isfor you.
Nature's last stance is afierce.
Funny and deeply moving odysseyinto the power, politics, and
chaos of humanity's relationshipwith nature, where birds,

(45:38):
romance, rocks, drug lords,unleash hippos, and worlds
collide.
This book explores the waynature, shapes, cultures,
economies, politics, andsocieties, and defines the very
fabric of human civilization,and it's told through a range of
somewhat irreverent, quirky,joyful, sweet, and sometimes

(45:58):
tragic stories.
Often we think of nature andassume it's a niche topic,
something that we're fond of,but perhaps wouldn't wanna read
about.
This book aims to change that.
It charts the romantic lives ofwildlife, the rise and fall of
empires, the stories of women onthe front lines of crisis, who
are mobilizing the world throughtheir compassion and the

(46:20):
scandalous underbelly of thebirdwatching community, which is
filled with Shakespearean leveldrama.
Writing Nature's Last Dance wasthe greatest joy of my life.
This book is my whole heart andmy whole brain, and I hope you
love it.
I think it's important.
Well, of course I do.
I I wrote it, but I hope you dotoo.

(46:41):
I.

So all those stories just go to show how
everybody's journey isdifferent.
All three of your journeys weredifferent.
My journey was different tothat.
Um, but still lots ofsimilarities.
I think everyone spoke ofrejections, you know, like just
you, so you just have to keep onpushing through and, and I think
also like just trusting in whatyou're writing as well.
Um, and, and just, you know,going with that and pushing

(47:09):
forward with that.
And, there's one constant aswell.
Another one that I've foundbetween everyone is just putting
your work out there and gettingit seen.
And, and no matter how you dothat, and that can lead to
rejections in the first placeand that's fine, but, you know,
conferences keep it VCYAassessments, um, finding agents
and putting it out there, um,it's, it's just the only way

(47:30):
that you can get your workpicked up.
Right.
So any other major tips from,from the pros here?
I'll ask each of you, can anyonegive, can you give a tip for our
sparring authors who are tryingto get their work out there and
trying to get it signed?
And then maybe something for ourdebut authors, because there's,
you know, we've got a debut crew2025, we've got another five

(47:51):
months left of the year.
So, uh, with people's bookscoming out and everyone's always
in that leader.
We, and we've all been there,you're so desperate to find out
what's actually happening, whatshould I do, what are the do's
and don'ts?
'cause everyone just wants tomake the most of it.
And, you know, there's a 2026crew now.
Probably a 2027 crew started aswell.
Um, so because like we justspoke about that really long
lead time, right?

(48:12):
Um, so Shara, I'll start withyou.
What tips have you got for ourlisteners?

Um, yeah, I was thinking about this.
I was asked this at and, uh, ranout of time, so I had to give a
couple of like throwaway do thisand that.
But um, and this may becontroversial, but there's a big
thing on luck in the industry.
Uh, it's just, it, it was, itwas lucky.
I real deal with that because,uh, every single one of us works

(48:39):
so hard and we do the work, weput ourselves in front of the
right people.
Um, and I've been going for likenine years now, uh, and I've
only just got my first deal andthen I just got my second deal.
Um, so I really wanna remove theword luck from the industry.
I think it's, it's definitely amatter of timing sometimes and

(49:01):
getting in front of the rightpeople.
Um, but I think it's importantto.
To embrace the whole, the wholepicture, which is you do the
work, you put yourself in frontof the right person and you will
get rejections.
And it's how you handle thoserejections.
Do you wallow or do you justkeep pushing forward?

(49:21):
Um, that, that's what I thinkpersonally.
And, and the other thing is justto find your tribe.
I think when I found my people,it just transformed every,
everything.
Suddenly you've got people tobounce your work off.
You've got people to share theups and downs with you really
truly celebrate each other'ssuccesses.
Um.
And I think that's a, it helpsfor, from a mental perspective,

(49:43):
and it also helps from anencouragement perspective as
well.
Um, we've got a few friendsshifting from picture book to
long, long form, um, and they'rea bit intimidated by the words,
and I just, I just keep saying,just focus on the character,
focus on the heart.
It's just remember why youwrite.
Yeah.
Um, and for debuts, I, I think,um, we've got such a great group

(50:05):
this year.
Everyone is so amazing and allthe books are so incredibly
incredible and incrediblydifferent.
It's, it's just such a joy tosee them all coming out and
celebrating each other'ssuccesses.
Um, I just, I just thinkremember why you write, like,
just remember why you writethroughout the entire process
always.
Yeah.
That would be mine.

Yeah, they're really good tips and I agree
with you about the, the luckthing.
Um, yeah, I think that term getsconfused with Right, right
author, right publisher, righttime, you know, it's, yeah.
Don't you agree?
Like it's, and, and maybe that'slucky that you just, it, you
happen to, you know, like I saywith my, uh, um, conversations

(50:46):
with Lisa, when I first met hertalking about a YA novel, um, it
wasn't maybe luck, but it.
You know, we could have hung upthe phone at a particular point
in time, but we didn't.
I kept, you know, chatting and Ikept pushing her to keep
chatting.
'cause we're on the, I've got,I've got Lisa Berryman on the
phone.
Keep going.
Don't let her go.
Um, you know, but, you know,could, and maybe that's just a

(51:06):
decision that you make.
Um, maybe it's luck, I don'tknow.
But it's, um, I don't think Iwould've probably signed with
her in the end had I not gone onand had that conversation.
That turned into a lot more.
Um, yeah,

also, you've gotta be the right person that
she gels with, right?
It it, yeah.
It's a connection thing.
And if you connect, you talklonger.
Yeah.

Connection.
We talk, we spoke about that alot.
There was a lot about that atCYAA conference that was on the
weekend and we had a really bigsuccess panel and um, I think
there was like 13 successes fromthis year.
Um, so, and everybody in adifferent way spoke of
connection.
Even if they didn't say thewords connection, there was some
kind of connection happening intheir, um, journey to success

(51:49):
through CYA.
So that's really important.
Okay.
Lucie, what are your top tipsfor aspiring authors and debut
Authors?

So I think for aspiring authors, one of the
most important things is tocommit to an attitude of
continuous learning.
I think so.
Um, so I do a lot of manuscriptassessments as part of my
professional work, and I do havequite a lot of repeat clients.
And what I often see is that.

(52:18):
There hasn't been a lot of kindof learning happening between
one manuscript and the nextmanuscript.
And I think that sometimes thiscan actually really hold people
back.
So people who've got a lot ofpotential but maybe haven't sort
of realized that they've stillgot quite a lot to learn.
And I know from my ownexperience to, um, when I look

(52:38):
back at that very first novelthat did end up getting
rejected, I can now see why, youknow, like despite the fact that
I had won development awards andI had secured an agent, I can
really see why that novel didn'tget published.
Um, and in some respects I'mkind of glad that it didn't Now,
you know, I mean, of course Iwould've had the benefit of
working with an editor, um, toimprove it.

(53:00):
And there were some things thatI just wasn't capable of, of
fixing.
It was, uh, I was trying towrite something that I didn't
have the skills to writeessentially.
But I think it's, yeah, reallyimportant to remember that you
don't just kind of become awriter.
And even the act of writing,while it's extremely important,
it needs to come in tandem witha lot of learning as well.

(53:21):
And that means becoming reallyfamiliar with the conventions of
the genre that you are trying towrite.
Um, paying attention to thebooks that are being published
and learning from them byreading them closely, um,
joining your local groups thatare available in your area or
online to learn from the peoplearound you as well.
So I just think it's, yeah,really important to remember

(53:43):
that it's not just somethingthat magically happens, that you
actually have to work reallyhard to learn the skill and to
master it as well, to master thecraft.
So, yeah, I, I know I wasted alot of time in my younger years.
Um, not really understandinggenre conventions properly.
And I, I look back and I can seehow I was so captivated by just

(54:06):
the joy of writing, whichobviously is really, really
important as well, but going ontangents that really didn't
serve the narrative and, um,sort of getting very captivated
by the process instead ofthinking a little bit more
strategically about it.
So I couldn't have saved myselfa lot of time if, if someone had
given me the advice that I'msort of putting out there now, I

(54:27):
suppose, um, in theory, whoknows?
But, um, and I think, like Sharasaid, um, for people with their
first novels coming out in thenear future, um, one of the best
things I did actually was jointhe local, my local local CBCA
community.
They are such a wonderful group.

(54:47):
I am so humbled by theirgenerosity and support.
I've made some great friends whohave been amazing mentors to me
as well.
So it's been so wonderful, um,to be part of that community.
And I think, yeah, it's, it'sgreat too because it's not just
writers who are also, or, um,illustrators.

(55:09):
You are connecting withbooksellers and librarians and
teacher librarians, so it'sreally a wealth of knowledge and
experience.
So I highly recommend people getinvolved in their, in their
local CBCA community.

Yeah, no, very important.
The community, it's, it comes upevery time, doesn't it?
Finding a tribe like Shara saidas well.
Um, absolutely.
Um, I really love what you sayabout conventions with writing
though, because everybody wholistens to the podcast knows
that I, you know, I sort of saythat I plot, but again, like I,
I write, I'm probably like You,Lucie.
I'm a little bit of both and I'mprobably a lot of planning, but
I, like I do that, sorry,afterwards as like a check.

(55:44):
Like I love that editing processand I love just checking to make
sure that everything sort ofhits the mark before I go any
further with it.
And a lot of people, yeah, they,they're not even aware that
there's particular conventions,um, in some of these genres.
And, and that is something thatyou can find out and it's, and
it all makes sense when you readit.
You're like, and you think aboutthe stories that you've read in
that genre when you look atthose conventions, um.

(56:07):
It just makes sense.
And you think about a book thatyou've read recently and you go,
oh yeah, I, I see that point andI see that where that happened,
and I see where that happened,and I see where that happened.
And then you start to realizeit's in all those well-written
books that you've read.
Um, and it's not, I think, yeah,people get a bit scared of
losing that magic of writing andjust freely having it.
Right.
And some people can just do itautomatically, you know, come

(56:29):
that comes out and they're veryprivileged to be able to just
innately know where things goand when and why.
But it's, it's such an importanttool to go back to, even if it's
just a check.
Right.

Yeah, exactly.
And I think for me, to behonest, when I wrote, um, the
first draft of ROP, nannyTobins, I have to say that, um,
and this was a highly unusualexperience for me, that in the
first instance, at least from astructural point of view, there
was still a lot of work anddevelopment that had to happen.
But, um, all of those sort ofconventions, all of the

(57:01):
mandatory scenes just happenedto be there in the right place
at the right time.
And I almost couldn't believeit.
It was like, and I, I keptthinking it's Sarah STIs.
She somehow infused me with thisamazing magic that she
possesses, but actually.
I, I think what it was is it wasall of those years of learning,
sitting so hardwired in mysubconscious that when I sat

(57:23):
down to write, it felt veryintuitive about when I needed to
turn a scene and when I neededto build to a climax.
Um, and when I needed a momentof sort of like deep emotional
resonance happening.
So I really feel like, um, the,the learning of the conventions
is the, is the structure andthen all of the magic and

(57:44):
intuitive stuff happens aroundthat.
And it's, it's almost like it's,it's there to support you.
All that learning is there tosupport you and it actually
frees you in the moment whenyou're sitting down to write
because you're not having tothink so much about it.
It's sitting there alreadypresent.
So that's why I'm just such abig, as you can tell, advocate
for like learning, just keeplearning and then eventually it

(58:05):
kind of all organically comestogether, hopefully

Yeah, and reading too, right?
If you read a lot, that's it.
Just, is it that format and thatflow, it just sort of sits there
as well because you know, youjust innately learn it and so
you know how it flows.
'cause you know what you've readand you just can write from what
you've learned.
Um,

like the rhythm of it sits there with you and
you get a feel for how it needsto move.

Mm-hmm.
Yep.
No, absolutely.
Such good advice.
And Sandy, what have you got forus?

Yeah, look, I'd struggle, um.
Agree with Lucie's advice aboutlearning and your words about
reading, and especially readingin your chosen genre.
So, um, for me, I made sure Iread a lot of verse novels, um,
just to get that idea of rhythmand, and the flow and the, and
the lyrical language.

(58:57):
I also read, uh, poetry and thenI also think it's important to
read outside of, uh, your chosengenre as well, just to, um, you
know, that can give you freshideas and, uh, ways of writing
that you can incorporate intoyour own writing.
And I think it's, um, it's justreally important, like Lucie

(59:18):
said.
To hone your craft.
And you can do that by attendingworkshops, uh, attending
conferences.
You can do writing coursesonline.
There's so many wonderfulchoices.
You don't even have to leaveyour house if you don't want to.
You could do it in your owntime.
Um, so I think it's important toembrace all those learning

(59:41):
opportunities.
Uh, like we've also said, findyour tribe, find your people.
This might be slightlycontroversial, but I would say,
okay, I love social media.
It's not for everyone.
Um, it can be a real time wasterand there's a lot of advice
about sort of not being onsocial media or kind of limiting

(01:00:01):
your time on it.
But for me, uh, when I joined,uh, that Bookstagram community,
that's where I made myconnections.
Um, which of course you can doin person as well through,
through your CBCA groups, but.
Sometimes some people find itactually quite intimidating to

(01:00:22):
turn up to these groups inperson.
You know, especially when youdon't know anyone and you feel
like a bit of an imposter.
You know?
It's that whole impostersyndrome.
Like, I'm not really an author,but you know, I think for some
social media is a way to connectwith people without having to,
um, meet face to face initiallyif, if you don't feel

(01:00:44):
comfortable to do that.
So you can, um, yeah, fosteryour own sort of communities
that way as well and get to knowpeople, get to, that's how I've
met so many people who I feellike are my friends.
Um, we may not have met in reallife, but you feel like you have
and you have this wholesupportive community around you.

(01:01:05):
I would say try not to spend allyour time on social media.
You have to actually.
Do the writing as well, ofcourse.
Um, so it's, it's just aboutwhatever's, whatever works for
you and your personality.
Um, so yeah, so basically read alot, lots of workshops, find

(01:01:27):
your people.

Tina Strachan (01:01:28):
Yep.
Yep.
Very important.
Again, finding tribe andcommunity.
Right.
And whether that's online or inperson, it's all very important.
Um, and the social media thing,uh, at CYA on the weekend, uh,
during the publishers and agentspanel, uh, you know, that was
brought up.
I think it's brought up everyyear about whether someone needs
to be on social media.
And I think it was kind ofcategorically.

(01:01:50):
Well, look, it can, it'sdefinitely gonna help you and
not through the way that somepeople think, like, who aren't
on social media or are reallyscared of it.
Like, it's another way tocontact you, a really easy way
to contact you and to put yourwork out there as well.
And you know, the advice givenwas if you are scared of it or
you just don't like postingabout yourself, then just kind

(01:02:10):
of, you know.
What do you like doing?
Do you like cats and do you likereading cool post about post
your book that you're reading atthe moment and post funny things
that your cat does or just thepicture of your cat or a book
and the cat together.
You know, just, you know, is itfood?
Do you love food, post food?
You know, just, just, justwhatever.
Kind of, just throw some stuffon there.
And they did say it does sortof, it does show that you're

(01:02:33):
willing to, you know, promote alittle bit.
'cause you know, we've spokenabout it a lot on the podcast.
You do have to do some promotionyourself, of your book, um, when
it is published.
So, uh, yeah, it just kind ofshows that you are serious about
it, I think was the words thatwe use.
That you're professional, you'reserious about it because it is
like, kind of like getting a,um, starting a business, isn't

(01:02:53):
it?
You need a way for people tocontact you and, and see what
you've got an offer.
Yeah.

Sandy Bigna (01:02:59):
Absolutely.

Alright, ladies.
Well, it has been incrediblechatting to your, and I don't
want to leave.
I, I have so many otherquestions.
I, I write when you'll speak andI put these little like stars,
like ask more about that.
But honestly, we could be herefor three hours chatting about
all the things that I've writtendown.
Maybe we'll have to do a, a parttwo to it.
But, um, yeah, so thank you somuch for coming on the book deal

(01:03:23):
podcast.

Oh, thank you so much for

Lucie Stevens (01:03:26):
having us.
It's been great.

It has lots of fun.

Good luck with your second books.

Thank you.
I need it.

You do not.

Good luck with your third Tina.

Yes, Tina.

Thanks.

Amazing.

Thank you for listening to the book Deal
podcast.
We're able to bring you theseweekly writerly chats because of
our amazing patrons.
Join the TPD family by becominga member of our Patreon
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Speaker 6 (01:04:04):
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