Natasha Lester on setting goals, the business behind a bestseller and her latest novel, The Mademoiselle Alliance
In this episode of The Book Deal Podcast, Madeleine Cleary chats with international bestselling author Natasha Lester. They discuss Natasha's latest novel, The Mademoiselle Alliance (26 March 2025, Hachette Australia), inspired by Marie-Madeleine Fourcade, the only woman to lead a resistance movement in WWII France. But she was also a rally car driver, a pilot and a highly skilled concert pianist! The conversation delves into Natasha's writing journey from contemporary fiction to historical novels, what Penny from Costco did to help her career, her experiences in publishing, and her advice for writers on balancing creativity with the business side of writing. The episode also highlights the importance of remembering the crucial efforts of Marie-Madeleine Fourcade and her network of 3000 resistance agents to the success of the Allied invasion of France in WW2.
This week's Debut in the Spotlight is Angie Cui. Angie's debut book and picture book is My Mum is a Bird (1st April 2025, UQP).
00:00 Introduction to The Book Deal Podcast
00:43 Meet Natasha Lester: International Bestselling Author
03:26 Natasha's Latest Novel and Writing Journey
05:09 The Early Days: Natasha's First Book Deal
11:49 From Marketing to Writing: Natasha's Career Shift
15:21 The Business of Being a Writer
18:34 Writing Historical Fiction
24:14 The Journey to Becoming a New York Times Bestseller
26:04 The Impact of Penny's Pick at Costco
28:46 Introducing 'My Mum is a Bird' by Angie Cui
30:05 The Significance of the New York Times Bestsellers List
31:12 Discovering Marie-Madeleine Fourcade's Extraordinary Life
40:05 Researching Historical Fiction
41:33 Goals and Optimism for 2025
44:01 Advice for Emerging Writers
45:45 Final Thoughts and Farewell
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tina Strachan (00:09):
This is the Book Deal podcast
Madeleine Cleary (00:10):
where you will discover the inspiring stories,
the authors behind yourfavourite books.
No matter what stage of writingyou are at, we've got you
covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one
Tina Strachan (00:26):
deal
Madeleine Cleary (00:26):
at a time.
The Book Deal Podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners of the land and waters,which it's recorded on.
And pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging.
Hi, it's Madeleine here with 11novels to her name,
(00:46):
international bestselling andPerth based author.
Natasha Lester is a writer whoneeds no introduction.
Her novels have been translatedinto 21 languages and are
published all around the world.
I finished Natasha's latestnovel, the Mademoiselle Alliance
the night before our chat, and Istruggled to contain my
fangirling before we hit record.
(01:09):
I love Natasha's messages towriters in this one about
writing your way to success bywriting what you love.
I.
Being brave to set crazy goals,setting time aside to work on
the business behind being awriter, and of course, our chat
about her latest novel.
Inspired by the incredibleMarie-Madeleine Fourcade, the
only woman to lead a resistancemovement in World War II in
(01:32):
France.
Hi, Natasha Lester.
Welcome to the book Dealpodcast.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really looking forward tochatting today.
Oh, I'm just so excited to haveyou on and I just wanted to
reflect on, I'm sure if youremember the first time we met
in person, Natasha.
Natasha Lester (01:53):
Remind me, I will remember there were so many
things in my brain, I keepsaying to my publicist, I'm so
worried that half of them arefalling out somewhere.
Madeleine Cleary (02:01):
Maybe I shouldn't remind you'cause it's
a bit of an embarrassing storyfor me.
So it was back when you were onpublicity tour.
For the Disappearance of AstridBricard.
Okay.
Natasha Lester (02:11):
I feel I signed a book for you, didn't I?
You did.
You did.
I, I remember it all.
Coming back to it now.
I knew it would,
Madeleine Cleary (02:17):
and this book was actually one that I had not
purchased, and I ran out of thestore.
No, no, no, no, no.
So what, for listeners, whathappened?
'cause this event was reallypopular.
There were so many people and Ihadn't had a chance to go and
buy the book.
And when they called up thesigning line, the signing line
was huge.
And I said to my mum, go grab acopy so I can quickly get in
(02:38):
line so I'm not gonna be, youknow, waiting in line for hours.
And um, mum's like, yep, noworries.
I'm like, I'll stand in line,mum, you go buy it.
She's like, yep.
Got it.
Got it.
Um, and so went and had a lovelychat with you, Natasha.
You were so gracious and solovely.
And then mum and I were walkingoutta the store and I said, oh,
mum, let me know how much totransfer you.
I signed
Natasha Lester (02:58):
the stolen book.
I remember
Madeleine Cleary (03:03):
I was horrified.
We just looked at each otheroutside and we're like, what do
we do?
Natasha Lester (03:10):
No, that was great.
I've never signed a stolen bookbefore.
It's like a highlight.
Not that you know of.
Not that you know of.
Yeah, not that I know of.
True.
Madeleine Cleary (03:19):
Um, also, I did go back and purchase the
book.
Natasha Lester (03:22):
Of course, being an author, you would know
Madeleine Cleary (03:25):
exactly.
Now we are about to, you areabout to launch upon, uh, your
new book, which is coming out,um, on the 26th of March in
Australia.
And.
You've got a bunch ofinternational releases coming as
well from the MademoiselleAlliance, which I've just read
and it is brilliant.
Natasha Lester (03:41):
Thank you so much.
And I'm so excited to read somany books for this podcast, so
thank you.
Madeleine Cleary (03:46):
Oh no, it was, um, an easy one to read and I
just absolutely adored it and wewill talk about it.
But I wanna sort of go back tothe start because we're all
about talking about book dealson this podcast.
Yep.
You have so much experience toshare.
And when I was doing someresearch, I realized your first
novel, or your first historicalfiction novel was published in
(04:07):
2016.
Yes,
Tina Strachan (04:09):
that's
Madeleine Cleary (04:09):
right.
That was only nine years ago.
You've released nine historicalfiction books in nine years, is
that correct?
Natasha Lester (04:17):
Um, yeah.
It must be.
I'm, I'm looking over at myshelf now.
K 2, 4, 6, 8.
Yes, this'll benu.
Is this number nine?
Yeah, it is.
It's number nine.
Oh my gosh.
Great.
Madeleine Cleary (04:27):
Which is amazing.
How, how, how have you, are youokay?
Like,
Natasha Lester (04:34):
no, um, I do go through phases of intense, like
brain fatigue and, you know,every now and again, I mean, it
sounds like I've had one a year,but I haven't had one every
year.
Mm-hmm.
Like my last book was 18 monthsago, and then I've had a couple
of other 18 month stints inbetween, so I've had.
18 months is a rest for me.
(04:54):
Um, but yes, I suspect that thatpace will slow down as the years
progress.
And I get older and older.
Madeleine Cleary (05:01):
Well, I hope not because we love having them
out in the world every year,even if there is an 18 months
break in between.
Um.
You didn't actually start inhistorical fiction.
Your first two novels werecontemporary.
Um, can you maybe talk about,um, how you got your deal for
your very first book, which iswhat is left over after.
Natasha Lester (05:23):
Yes.
So I had written that as part ofa university master's program
and like all young hopefulmaster's graduates, I'd sent it
out into the big wide world andlike it was a long time ago, so
that was published in 2010.
So I was sending this out around2007 and.
Agents were still asking youback then to send it by post.
(05:46):
Oh my gosh.
Email.
I know that's how old I'm,that's the worst part of this
story.
Right.
Um, so I had posted my chaptersand query letters out to the.
Like three or four agents thatwere accepting submissions in
Australia at the time.
It wasn't like now where theyhave open periods.
It was very hard to just send anunsolicited, um, submission to
(06:09):
an agent and they'd all rejectedme, um, quite, quite nicely in
many cases with lovely,handwritten.
Handwritten, not even tight.
Wow.
I know.
Have you kept them?
Yeah, I have, I've got a folderof them.
Of course I scrapbook.
Yeah.
It could be worth
Madeleine Cleary (06:24):
money
Natasha Lester (06:24):
in Future, Natasha.
Madeleine Cleary (06:25):
That's right.
Natasha Lester (06:27):
Um, and then I'd sent it off to a couple of
publishers as well, who were,again, at that time open, which
again, wasn't many because theydidn't, you know, publishers
these days that have, um, openslash piles that you can send.
Mm-hmm.
That wasn't the case back then.
Um, and pretty much everyone hadrejected me, which was only
about, you know, like fivepeople in total.
And so in Western Australia wehave the TAG Hungerford Award
(06:50):
for fiction, and that's an awardfor any, um, unpublished
manuscript written by a WestAustralian author or someone
with a Strachan connection to waI live in wa so, and I'd known
about that award forever.
And, and that was always on mykind of goals list.
So I submitted it to theHungerford.
Crossed my fingers.
It's about, um, nine months, thejudging process.
(07:12):
So you don't hear anything for areally long time.
Wow, that's a lot.
Yeah, it's probably changedagain, this is like such a long
time ago.
I'm sure it must be quicker now.
And um, then I got contacted andtold I was on the shortlist.
With other people and I wassuper excited, but I was also
quite despondent because, um, aright friend of mine, Julian Van
(07:32):
Lone, had recently won theAustralian Vogel Award when that
existed.
And she'd been called by thejudges before the night of the
award ceremony to tell her thatshe'd won.
So she had a speech ready.
So, of course, me being me, Iassume this was how all literary
awards done.
Worked and no one had called meto tell me to get my speech
ready for the Tag Hunger FootAwards.
(07:54):
We haven't won, obviously.
So I went along on the nightthinking, oh God, I haven't won.
What am I gonna do?
This is like my luck.
Literally my last chance I, Idon't know.
And my husband said later.
He was driving me there and hewas thinking the same thing.
Oh my God, what are we gonna do?
You know, she's not gonna, she'snot gonna win'cause she hasn't
got the phone call.
It's gonna be, she's gonna be sosad.
How am I gonna cope with herafterwards?
(08:16):
Anyway, so these two despondentpeople were driving along to
this award ceremony and then wearrive and they pull out the
envelope and I'm.
Looking around the room at thetwo other short listees trying
to scope out which one it'sgoing to be.
And then they read my name outand I have literally never been
more surprised in my life.
So yeah, so I won that and thatcame with the publishing
(08:38):
contract.
Still, that's, the awards stillexist.
It still comes with a publishingcontract and it's such a great
award because it's launched thecareers of so many.
West Australian authors likeHolden Shepherd won that award
for in Boys, which is nowobviously a Stan Yes.
Phenomenon.
Um, so it's just a reallyvaluable part of the West
Australian Biden community.
Madeleine Cleary (08:57):
When you did get shortlisted and when you
were ultimately won, what wasthat feeling like?
That first time?
Because is that the firstvalidation you got for your
writing or were there otherthings that you were submitting?
Natasha Lester (09:10):
Um, I know I had submitted some poems and short
stories in the couple of years,probably more than the couple of
years prior, probably the fiveyears prior to that.
Um.
In fact, the very, I had thislike beginner's luck.
The very first thing that I eversent off to anyone was a poem to
Overland Magazine, which I don'tknow if that just still exists.
(09:31):
Yes, it was a very famousliterary magazine and I'd
written it as.
Part of a university assignment.
My tutor had said it was greatand I should try and submit it,
sent it off by post again with astamped, self-addressed
envelope.
Oh my god, I'm so old.
And, um, my stampedself-addressed envelope arrived
back in the mail and I thoughtit was gonna have the standard
rejection letter in it, and ithad a check for a hundred
(09:52):
dollars and an acceptance lettersaying it was going to be
published.
And so.
After that initial beginners,like obviously things did not
always run that smoothly withevery other submission that I
had sent out after that, but Ikept sending out poems and short
stories, and so I'd had a few ofthose published, but it's not
the same.
I think when your ambition is tobe a novelist, it's not until
(10:14):
you know that your novel isgoing to be published that you
feel like you can really callyourself a writer.
I'm like, I still.
We would go to parties andpeople would ask me what I did,
and I would never have said, oh,I'm a writer.
Mm-hmm.
I would've said, I'm studyingwriting or something like that.
But then once I knew that bookwas gonna be published, it was
like, now I'm an author.
Madeleine Cleary (10:33):
Isn't that strange though, how we have this
imposter syndrome about it?
It absolutely, yeah.
Yeah.
Anyone that writes as a writer,it's, it's, there's, you know,
it's, that's quite interesting.
So, um, seven.
So you win this award, um.
How, at what point did youdecide I want to be a writer?
Maybe just to yourself.
(10:53):
You might not have told otherpeople about it.
Yeah.
Oh,
Natasha Lester (10:55):
no.
When I was little, like my mumhas all of these poems and
little books that I wrote andillustrated when I was young.
Um, I always loved writing.
I always loved reading, and Ialways wrote things throughout
my whole childhood.
And it was if, when I wasreading a book.
And I had that, you know, I fellinto the story and had that
(11:18):
Strachan sense of being takenaway to some other time placed,
uh, person inhabiting someoneelse's life.
I would always think, wow,imagine being able to.
Make people feel like this.
Like that must, that's like asuperpower to me.
It was.
And so from then on I wanted tobe a writer.
I just took me, you know, a longtime to get there, but
Madeleine Cleary (11:38):
was there.
And so you've always wanted todo it.
Was there a point where yousaid, okay, I'm gonna start
doing it, and how do you, how doyou start when you get that?
When you decide, okay, this iswhat I wanna do.
Natasha Lester (11:49):
So for me, uh, when I was in year 12, uh, and
everyone was selecting theiruniversity courses that they
were going to do, I still wantedto be a writer then, but.
WA, there wasn't really acreative writing course that
existed at university back then.
There was journalism and Ididn't really wanna be a
journalist, but that was theonly thing similar.
(12:09):
So I ended up doing a Bachelorof Commerce and I majored in
marketing and public relations'cause that had this kind of
writing element to it because Ididn't know what else to do.
I didn't know how to be awriter.
Like, you know, there was nokind of apprenticeship or
pathway like there was, if youwanted to be a teacher or a
doctor, there was this veryclear kind of pathway to follow
and very clear set of objectivesthat you had to achieve along
(12:32):
the way.
So I just, and back then therewasn't the wealth of
information.
On the internet.
'cause the internet didn't existback then when I was leaving
high school.
That was like this far fludream.
Didn't even have mobile phones.
Oh my God, I'm so old.
Um, so I didn't, I know how toaccess the kind of information
that might have helped me to beable to become a writer, but I
(12:55):
also Strachanly believed thatback then at age 17, I didn't
have the emotional range that Ineeded to be able to be a
writer.
So it was actually a good thingthat I went and did a completely
different degree.
Then I worked in marketing for10 or 12 years and then my
husband had had to follow me toMelbourne for my work.
(13:16):
And then when he had to go backto Perth for his job, um, I
obviously went with him.
I didn't stay in Melbourne and.
Meant quitting my marketing jobthat I had at L'Oreal.
Um, you know, I was marketingmanager for Maybelline.
It was, that
Madeleine Cleary (13:30):
sounds so romantic.
Natasha Lester (13:32):
It was, it was really fun.
And, you know, coming to Perthwhere there weren't companies
with their head offices locatedhere back then, so there wasn't
the same kind of marketing jobavailable.
And that was when I thought,well, I've still got this idea
in the back of my mind aboutbeing a writer.
Maybe rather than just gettingany old marketing job, I go back
(13:54):
to university because now thereare creative writing courses at
university and I give it, giveit a try because it's all very
well to think you wanna be awriter, but.
The actual practice of being awriter, like maybe it would've
been different to what Ithought.
Maybe I wouldn't have enjoyedit.
So I wanted to check that first.
And also, obviously the mostimportant thing is to find out
if I was any good at it becauseyou know, my amateurs amateur,
(14:17):
childish kind of books for notvery good.
So I needed to kind of testmyself.
So I did go back to universityand I.
Um, found out that I loved it.
Got my poem published, so thatwas like, okay, well maybe I
have some ability to do it.
And I kept going from there.
So that was really, um, I'vecompletely forgotten what you
(14:38):
actually asked me.
Did I answer your question?
Oh my God,
Madeleine Cleary (14:41):
absolutely.
I'm interested actually.
Um, I.
Few writers now that have hadmarketing and public relations
backgrounds.
Interesting.
Which is, yeah, reallyinteresting.
And I suppose it goes into thatadvertising marketing space
where you are being a bit morecreative, um, but to, in order
to make money, um, yes.
Natasha Lester (15:00):
And also I guess you're telling a story when
you're going out to consumerswith a brand, you are saying to
them, imagine yourself withthis.
And so you have to create astory around that.
So I feel like, you know, I canunderstand that.
Madeleine Cleary (15:12):
Yes.
And actually authors are alwaystold that we have to tell the
story behind the story Exactlyas well.
That's been something that I'm,I'm learning how to do.
Um, with my debut coming out,what, how's your marketing
background helped you, do youthink?
Has it helped you in yourwriting life?
Um, and what maybe tips do youhave for, for emerging writers?
Natasha Lester (15:34):
I definitely think it has helped me because
it's, it's hard.
There are.
You know, a number of schoolshave thought out there about
whether writers should orshouldn't think about their
readers and their audience.
And you know, when you get intomarketing and you drill down to
things like target audiences,like it sounds icky when you put
(15:54):
that into like a writing in abook kind of space.
But.
I mean, mostly I would imaginethat people are writing to be
read, and so therefore you arein the, at the end of the day
trying to reach a customer.
So having that ability to.
Appreciate the art of what I'mdoing, but understand that
(16:17):
there's a business side of it aswell, I think has actually been
really helpful and I don't feelembarrassed or ashamed about
acknowledging there is abusiness side to this and some
writers don't want to thinkabout that, and that's
absolutely fine.
Everyone is different andeverybody should approach it the
way that feels most comfortableto them.
But I don't know whether I wouldhave achieved the success that I
(16:42):
have achieved if I hadn't havebeen able to consider at least
the business aspects of being awriter as well.
I mean, you are a CEO of yourown business, and you are
required to.
Invent the idea for the product,then create the product.
Market the product, manage yourbudgets.
Um, do all your finances.
(17:03):
Yes, do strategy for yourself.
Like, where do I wanna be infive years time?
That's up to you to decide.
So, and all those kinds ofthings I had to do in marketing.
It was all strategy, ideas,product creation.
Finance, budgeting, et cetera.
So it's been really useful.
And my big piece of advice towriters would be to just, you
know, spend some time thinkingabout whether or not.
(17:26):
You know, giving yourself a bitof a, a day every couple of
months to think about the morebusiness aspects of writing
would be useful to you.
And for some people it'll belike, no, that will totally
dampen my creativity and I won'tbe able to write.
And if that's the case, then youshouldn't do that.
But for other people it might beworthwhile.
And, you know, giving yourself abusiness day that you formally
(17:47):
kind of set aside in yourcalendar.
Can be a really good thing'causeit forces you to acknowledge the
other elements that there are tobeing a writer.
Madeleine Cleary (17:56):
Oh no, I think that's excellent advice and I
think you are an example ofsomeone that's really built your
brand really, really well.
And I, I know we cringe ascreatives to hear that, but, but
it is true when true people say,I wanna, yeah.
You know, it's a Natasha Lesterbook.
They know, they know.
You know that they're gonna geta really well written,
beautifully crafted, wellresearched novel.
(18:18):
Is that what you'd intended fromthe start?
Because your two first books of,you've re, you've first released
your two books, which werecontemporary fiction, and then
you've, um, since then, um,published historical fiction
with Ette.
Was that a deliberate decisionor was it just what you want to
write?
Natasha Lester (18:34):
It's funny how little intention has gone into a
lot of the things that I'vedone, but you're absolutely
right when you say that, youknow.
We don't like to think ofourselves as brands, but that's
how the publishers think of you.
You know?
Mm-hmm.
When someone is submitting, theywanna know the comp titles.
They wanna know what two booksor three books, this is like, or
(18:56):
will appeal to the readershipsof those.
Comp Titles are really importantout for publishers, and that's
really saying.
I think my brand aligns withthis author brand is really what
you're saying when you'repicking those comp titles on
your pitch document.
So, um, so it is important tothink about that stuff, but sort
of when I moved fromcontemporary fiction to
(19:17):
historical fiction, it was a bitof an accident.
I had written a thirdcontemporary that I thought I
would get published, but it wasa horrible writing experience.
It was a terrible book.
Um, I threw it in the bin and,um.
Sort of didn't know.
It was a bit of a loose end,didn't know what to do.
It was a bit of a crisis mument,I suppose, for me.
(19:38):
Mm-hmm.
I didn't have the difficultsecond book.
I had the difficult third book.
I'm obviously a bit delayed.
What made
Madeleine Cleary (19:42):
it difficult?
Because I know a lot of peoplefind this.
Natasha Lester (19:45):
Yeah.
For me it was, um, I thinkbecause I'd written my first
book as part of a universitymaster's program.
Back then.
I think it's very different nowand it's much more open at the
universities.
There was an, a very Strachanexpectation about the kind of
book you would write as part ofthat master's program.
And it needed to be serious andweighty and heavy and sad and
(20:10):
grim, almost like it.
Um, and so I wrote two bookslike that.
Um, and then I just, I think I'drun out of that kind of energy
by the third.
It wasn't, they sound veryconsuming.
Yeah, I could ride like that,but it wasn't really me.
Um, I needed a bit more light, alittle bit more love, a little
(20:32):
bit more, um, ability to, um,shape the female characters and
a less kind of.
Vulnerably victimy kind of way.
Maybe.
Um, you're finding beauty, Ithink, in your novels.
Madeleine Cleary (20:46):
You are, you're finding this beau like
this during trouble times.
'cause there's still a lot ofdarkness in your, in your books.
Yes,
Natasha Lester (20:53):
absolutely.
Madeleine Cleary (20:53):
But there's these muments of light and
beauty, which is what I loveabout your writing.
So just Oh, thank
Natasha Lester (20:58):
you.
Yeah.
I mean that's I guess reallywhat I'm trying to do, but I
didn't know that then Iliterally just pulled all my
favourite books off my bookshelfand I.
Reread them.
And that was when I realizedthat so many of them were
historical fiction.
And I hadn't ever really thoughtto myself before, oh, I love
historical fiction, but Iclearly did love historical
fiction.
And then the smart part of mybrain went, oh, why don't you
(21:21):
try writing historical fictionthen?
And I was like, oh, that's areally good idea.
So I did.
Um, so it wasn't intentional andit wasn't planned.
Um, and same thing when I beganto write the Jewel narratives.
Um.
After my third historical, thatwas again, an accident.
It wasn't intentional.
And then that bit and the wholeFrench thing wasn't intentional
(21:42):
really, because it all seems sostrategic, Natasha, when you
look at
Madeleine Cleary (21:45):
it
Natasha Lester (21:45):
in
Madeleine Cleary (21:45):
retrospect, perhaps.
Natasha Lester (21:47):
I think it's all I was pursuing my interest in
doing what I loved, and that'salso a really key thing I think
for people.
You've gotta.
Write about the things that youmost love, because when you're
doing it, the readers will feelthe love.
And but then that was how thebrand shaped out of me just
writing about the kinds ofthings that I really enjoyed
exploring in my novel.
(22:07):
So, um, no, it wasn'tintentional.
And, and so I, I think thatdefinitely in writing there is
that.
Uh, push and pull and balancebetween some of the stuff is
just very magical andspontaneous and going with your
gut.
And then there is this kind ofbusiness element to things as
well, and you've gotta have bothparts playing, um, off against
(22:29):
each other at the same
Madeleine Cleary (22:30):
time.
Would you, so, um, is historicalfiction, is that where you're
going to stay, do you think?
Because there are a lot of,there's a lot of talk about, um,
writers sticking, and I knowpublishers enjoy when writers
stay in the genre.
Have you ever had thisdiscussion?
Natasha Lester (22:46):
Yes.
Well, it's interesting,particularly in America, um, at
the mument because obviouslythat's my biggest market, simply
because more people in America,right?
So if you are selling booksthere and hitting bestseller
list there, you're justnaturally gonna sell more
copies.
And, um, similarly to here,historical fiction has been
declining over the last year, acouple of years or so.
(23:07):
You know, we had this goldenrun, which is a bit like what
romantic and crime having now.
Eventually they'll reach kind oftheir decline, their peak and
start to decline.
It happens with every genre thatkind of has the, has this big
burst.
So in the US there's been a lotof talk about pivoting, which
is, I hate that word, but that'swhat the word that everybody is
using over there.
(23:28):
And writers are being encouragedfor the, which I think is great
because it's not normal to.
Take a bit of a turn and to keepsome of the hallmarks of their
brand, but to maybe explore adifferent direction.
So I've got, there's
Madeleine Cleary (23:40):
romantic in your future, Natasha?
Natasha Lester (23:42):
No, romantic is not in my future.
It's in my daughter's future.
She adores those books, which isgreat that she's reading them.
Um, so no, my, I've got a bookcoming out.
It probably next year it'll beout because I've submitted that.
Um, and that while still havinga historical.
Element to it has some quitedifferent pivot, I guess you
would call them.
(24:03):
Mm-hmm.
Elements to it as well.
And, um, that was super, superfun to write.
I had a great time writing thatbook.
Madeleine Cleary (24:10):
Okay.
Pivoting.
Okay.
I'm gonna remember that.
That's an interesting Yeah.
Way of describing it.
Um, I wanna talk about the USactually.
It's a bit of a, a dream, Ithink for all emerging writers
and day writers to, to bepublished internationally.
Um.
And, and particularly in the USmarket, there's a, like you
said, it is your biggest market.
Can you talk a little bit aboutyour experience becoming New
(24:32):
York Times bestseller and Ibelieve it was, um, perhaps
Penny from Costco that mighthave assisted, is that right?
Natasha Lester (24:38):
Yeah, so thank God for Penny.
I always say, um, so I hadpublished two historical novels
with, has shared Australia,which hadn't been.
Publish internationally at all.
And then my third historical wasthe Paris Seamstress, and that
was picked up by a publisher inthe US and which I thought was
fantastic, but I was also quitepessimistic about it because I
(24:59):
just didn't see why people sofar away would read a book
written by an author fromAustralia.
Madeleine Cleary (25:05):
But it is, there's a lot of very much set
in New York though as well.
Natasha Lester (25:09):
Yes, exactly.
But I don't know whether I wasjust setting my expectations low
or something.
I don't know.
So I was just happy that it wasbeing published, but didn't
expect it to do anything verymuch.
Um, and it was published inAugust of 2018 and.
It had a recently, like a betterprint run just kick off than I
(25:32):
thought.
Mm-hmm.
And just kept getting reprinted,just little reprints, um,
because people just sort of keptbuying it.
And so that was all gone quitewell.
Like, I was pretty happy with itas it was.
It didn't, and I still didn'thave any more expectations for
it until.
This email arrived in my inbox,it must have been late October,
early November.
So this is a couple of monthsafter publication and my editor
(25:55):
in New York said to me, oh myGod.
And she used ex exclamationmarks.
And when a publisher usesexclamation marks, you know,
it's exciting'cause they hateexclamation marks, right?
Um, and she said the Parisseamstress is a Penny's pick for
December.
And I'm like, who the fuck isPenny?
I.
(26:17):
Um, and she clearly got thesense from my reply that I was
underwhelmed and not taking thisinformation on in the way I
should be.
So she then came back to me witha full explanation of who Penny
was.
She was the main buyer forCostco.
Costco's like your big box, um,department store in the us Their
massive, they didn't sell manybooks, but the ones they sell,
(26:39):
they take a lot of stock of.
And Kenny would choose one bookeach month, um, from all the
books.
Available and it would be herpick.
And people had come to trust herpick.
I love that.
I know.
It was a real, it was like theRece Witherspoon book.
Yes.
I was just gonna say Foxdepartment stores.
Oh my God.
It was, she's an influencer.
Penny's an early, and she, she'sdoesn't do it anymore, which she
(27:02):
is such a dream.
I know.
So she interviews the author andyou have a big, um, article in
the Costco magazine, which goesout to, you know, millions of
households all over America.
And you walk into the store andthere's Penny's pick right at
the front of the store.
And the, the cherry on, theicing on the cake was that it
was December's pick.
So that's Christmas, right?
(27:23):
Oh, everyone's walking intoCostco to get a Christmas gift,
and there is the powerseamstress sitting right there
saying I'm the perfect Christmaspresent.
And they bought it.
And they bought it.
And they bought it.
And they bought it.
To the extent that.
My publisher ran out ofexclamation marks every time she
gave me a sales update.
'cause it was just so astoundingfor both of us, the kind of
(27:43):
numbers that we were moving.
Um, and then like in February,so six months after publication,
target came on board as a new,um, a new retailer like that.
Doesn't like that was amazing.
So then it had this wholenother.
Um, another boost from that, um,which meant that by the time my
next book came out, which, um,was called the French
(28:04):
Photographer here in Australia,the Paris Orphan in America.
That came out in the October,uh, September of 2019, that went
straight to the new New YorkTimes bestseller list, which was
a another.
Pinch me mument.
And again, my editor emailed mewith exclamation marks saying,
oh my gosh, the Paris Orman ison the New York Times bestseller
(28:24):
list.
And then she said, you can crossthat off your bucket list.
And I was like, I don't have iton my bucket list.
'cause it seemed soextraordinarily.
Unlikely to happen.
So yes, I did get out a piece ofpaper and write bucket list on
top and write it on there justso I could cross it out.
(28:46):
Hello, listeners.
My name is Angie Cui.
I'm a member of Debut Crew 2025.
I'm so happy to share my firstbook with you.
It's called My Mum is Bird,which was released on the 1st of
April through UQP.
This touching story celebratesthe differences and the beauty
of loving your family feathersand all.
(29:07):
Its parents, and parents stay atschool.
The child doesn't want to askthe mum to come to school.
This is all because the mum is abird, an actual bird.
Having a bird.
mum seems to stand out for allthe wrong reasons, especially in
the human world.
After feeling embarrassed tobring the bird mum along, the
(29:27):
child slowly realized that eventhough the mum is a bird, she's
pretty cool.
After all the stories inspiredby one of my friend's daily
life, the book reminds usfamilies can come in all shapes
and sizes.
My Mum is a Bird is out now,available in bookstores.
I cannot wait for you to meet mycharacters and experience this
(29:50):
heartwarming story.
Thank you so much to the BookDeal podcast for allowing me to
pop in this episode.
And thank you all for listeningand happy reading.
Madeleine Cleary (30:05):
What does it mean to authors to be on the New
York Times Bestsellers list?
Natasha Lester (30:09):
It's exciting because it's really, it's still
one thing.
I don't know how much longer itwill be meaningful for in the
current kind of very fragmentedmedia environment, but it still
is meaningful to.
People, um, it's meaningful tobookstores, it's meaningful to
readers, so it kind of justgives you, um, a, a little bit
(30:32):
more, um, authority, I guess.
And also, you know, in Australiathere's not that many writers
that have made the list, so it'skind of, um.
You know, it, it, it's an, it'ssuch an honor.
Do you know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
Like, it really feels like anhonor.
Um, and
Madeleine Cleary (30:48):
we don't really have an Australian
equivalent unless we say anAustralian bestseller
Natasha Lester (30:52):
coach.
No.
We don't really have anAustralian equivalent at all.
So we need to start that becauseonly UK's
Madeleine Cleary (30:56):
the Times best seller.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Natasha Lester (30:59):
All these.
Madeleine Cleary (31:00):
Australian bestseller maybe.
Yeah, maybe you can put that.
Okay.
I wanna talk about theMademoiselle Alliance, which I'm
very much hopeful will be on theNew York Times bestseller list.
Fingers crossed.
Fingers crossed.
Yeah.
Goals 2025 goals.
Yeah.
Um, but before we do, can youtell me about the first time you
heard about Marie-MadeleineFourcade?
So
Natasha Lester (31:19):
I had come across her name maybe just twice
in nonfiction books that I hadread about the Second World War
over the years because I've readquite a few for research for my
other books and she'd beenmentioned in passing, um, in
connection to the resistance andcertainly.
Never to me, to my knowledge,mentioned as the leader, the
(31:43):
only female leader of thelargest resistance network in
France.
Like that piece of vitalinformation was missing from the
books that I had read.
And I wonder
Madeleine Cleary (31:50):
why as well.
Yeah,
Natasha Lester (31:52):
I know.
Um, so I didn't know that shewas that important nor what she
had done until I sat down anddecided to.
By her memoir on a bit of a whimreally, of looking for a, a next
book idea and read her memoirand thought, oh my gosh, this is
who I'm writing about.
I can't think about anybodyelse.
Madeleine Cleary (32:12):
So do you wanna tell me a bit about her
life then, and what was thewhat, what really inspired you?
When were you like, oh, this isa book, I have to write this
story.
Natasha Lester (32:22):
There were so many muments where I thought
that it's like almost impossibleto pick one.
So she, she grew up in Shanghai.
Her father, um, worked on theFrench, uh, merchant Marine
service.
And so she grew up in the Frenchconcession of Shanghai because
obviously back then, um, youknow, there was a French
concession there.
(32:43):
Mm-hmm.
Um, so she had this veryextraordinary childhood being
allowed to kind of roam.
Free through Shanghai with hernanny and her brother and
sister.
And I think that, uh, childhoodreally formed the kind of woman
she became.
But at the same time, she wasalso practicing to be a concert
pianist.
So she was going to sit on thestage at the Egia in.
(33:05):
Um, Paris and play the piano.
Right.
Of course,
Madeleine Cleary (33:08):
she was, nothing surprises me now about
this woman I
Natasha Lester (33:10):
know.
I know.
So eight hours a day she'splaying the piano.
And then her father sadly passedaway and the family had to move
back to Paris.
And a short time later, when shewas 17 years old, she, um, fell
instantly in love with this, um,French military intelligence
officer.
And part of the attraction maybewas that he was about to be
(33:32):
posted to Morocco becauseMorocco was a French colony at
the time.
This is the late, this is thelate 1920s.
And so that would marry him,would mean moving to Morocco and
having probably a similarexperience to what she had in
Shanghai.
So she did that.
Um, and you know, learnt Arabic.
Like, can you imagine a woman in1920s Morocco learning Arabic,
like a blonde, blonde woman?
(33:53):
You know?
I know.
Like it's crazy.
Right?
And she would go out with herhusband, um, to meet the tribal
leaders that he had to talk to,to get information from, for his
role.
She helped, um, women at a localwomen's clinic give birth to
their babies.
Um.
Then she separated from herhusband.
They were very different inpersonality.
(34:13):
She was quite vivacious andoutgoing, and he was not like
that.
Uh, so she took her two childrenback to France with her.
Um,
Madeleine Cleary (34:21):
and at the time that would've been quite
significant too.
Natasha Lester (34:24):
Oh, yes.
She like, you know, a scarlettletter kind of stuff, you know,
separated.
The only way she could get awaywith it was because her husband
was in Morocco.
You could say that you had comeback for the children's
schooling.
So people accepted that as an.
Excuse because the schools inFrance were perceived to do
better than those in Morocco.
Right.
Um, so then she became a carrally driver.
Like she drove in the very earlycar rallies, um, you know, and
(34:46):
did really well on them, like,you know, came third and stuff
like that.
Madeleine Cleary (34:50):
There's a great scene of that in the book,
which I just loved.
How can you leave that right?
Natasha Lester (34:56):
Even if it wasn't plot related.
Loved it.
Loved it.
I know.
You just have to get that inthere.
She flew.
She was a pilot like in thenineties.
I know.
Are you kidding me?
Like, what did not what did thiswoman not do?
Right.
Um, so she also worked as ajournalist for, um, a radio
station in, and she interviewedwomen who were, uh, kind of
progressive, um, for the time inFrance.
(35:16):
So women kind of like her.
Um, and then of course warhappened, um, in 1939.
War was declared and she'd inthe couple of years.
Prior to that, had startedhelping a man called Navar, who
was publishing a newspaper,designed to show the French
people and the French governmentthat Hitler was preparing for
war because people didn'tbelieve that Hitler wanted to
(35:38):
take over Europe.
I don't know why they didn'tbelieve that, but they didn't.
And um, they almost probablydidn't want to believe it.
Did they?
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
And which is.
Similar to Mm.
But that's a conversation for,for another time.
Um, so he was getting informantsto smuggle papers out of
Germany, which Murray Madeleinewould collect from places like
(35:58):
Belgium.
And then they would publish the,the plans of the, um, Nazi
party, um, in terms of theirmilitary strategy.
And
even that kind of information didn't convince
people.
So then, um, the war happens.
Everything they've beenpublishing proves to be true and
accurate, and France is takenover by the Germans and cut in
(36:20):
half.
And Navar forms this, uh,intelligence network, which
becomes a resistance networkthat becomes the terminology for
it.
Um, and he has Marie-Madeleineas his, um, right hand woman.
She's his chief of staffinitially until he is arrested.
And she, I love
Madeleine Cleary (36:38):
how quickly he just like gets arrested and
Marie-Madeleine's like, okay, soI guess I'm gonna take over then
Natasha Lester (36:44):
and an extra, and the extraordinary thing was
that she had no militarytraining.
Yes.
You know, she didn't have anyformal intelligence training.
She was 31 years old, a motherof two kids in this network at
this time, where military mendecades, her senior with
military experience that shedidn't have.
(37:04):
But there was something abouther.
That made those agents and thosemen who, you know, probably had
some pretty chauvinist outlooksall the time, you know, at that
time that was the kind of norm,right?
Mm-hmm.
Yet they accepted her as theirleader.
So that was I.
Number one.
Well, you know, like the, one ofthe extraordinary things that
(37:26):
happened.
And then, so from then on, um,she led up to 3000 agents in
this resistance network thatstretched across the whole of
France and gathered so muchimportant intelligence without
which the war could have endedvery differently.
Madeleine Cleary (37:40):
That's right.
Well, I mean, it, it sounds tome that without.
Intelligence of alliance, youknow, it, it, thousands of more
people would've died.
The war would've kept going.
Um, the intelligence was crucialto the allied invasion of
France, the, the eventual alliedinvasion in 1944.
And this is a direct result.
So why have we not heard abouther before?
Natasha Lester (38:02):
Well, most likely because she's a woman,
sadly.
Um, but also I think it wasbecause Charles.
Charles Degal, as you would sayin French, but let's just call
him Charles Dega because that'seasier.
Um, he created this, um, uh,group called The Companions
Deion.
Mm-hmm.
And he, this was an honor hebestowed on the people he deemed
(38:23):
most fundamental to.
Uh, securing Francis Freedomthroughout the war, and he gave
that honor to 1,038 people.
1,032 of them were men.
Um, so only six of them werewomen, and none of those women
were Marie-Madeleine Fourcade.
Madeleine Cleary (38:41):
Blews My mind when I read that and course
like, what?
This, this I know real
Natasha Lester (38:46):
grant, her subordinates.
Received the award.
Oh, so three people who she wasmanaging and giving priorities
to for their intelligencegathering and managing them,
telling them what to do, etcetera.
They were awarded.
Yeah.
It was
Madeleine Cleary (39:00):
de sha the goal.
Just not like Marie Madeleine.
Natasha Lester (39:03):
Look, I feel like he probably was quite
typical for a man of his time,but given that he did only give
the award to six women, therewere many more than six women
who were of course.
To the French resistance.
Um, so that in and of itselfreflects perhaps his beliefs.
Um, there was also quite sometension between Charles Daal
(39:24):
and, and Navar who foundedClient Network that were not
friends.
And so potentially it arose fromthat as well.
Um.
But I think that when you've gota woman who is excluded from
that list, then history thinks,well, she wasn't important.
Mm.
But
then when the histories are being written, she
doesn't get mentioned becauseshe's not one of the most
crucial people who helped to, toachieve France's freedom.
(39:46):
So I think it probably happened.
From there, uh, is mysupposition anyway.
Madeleine Cleary (39:51):
Hmm.
Well I'm so glad that you havewritten this book because her
story needs to be spread to awider audience and I consider
myself a well-educated person.
The fact that I hadn't heard ofher was really disappointing to
me.
So, um, have you approached theresearch to this story
differently, do you think, thanyour other historical fiction
books?
Natasha Lester (40:11):
Really, other than there was, I mean, I've had
to read lots of French documentsin the past for my books, but
this time almost everything wasin French.
And yes,
Madeleine Cleary (40:21):
I I was very impressed when you said that.
You've, you were, you read theFrench, her French memoir.
Natasha Lester (40:26):
Yeah.
'cause the
Madeleine Cleary (40:27):
English abridged, it was an abridged
version.
That's
Natasha Lester (40:29):
right.
It left a lot of crucial stuffout, so.
I did it pretty much exactly thesame way.
I went to France, traveled inher footsteps, visited all of
the locations where she had herheadquarters, visited her grave,
um, visited other memorials, uh,particularly to a man named Leon
Phi, who was her second incommand.
And I read lots of documents inFrench, including Leon's niece
(40:53):
had written, um, this kind ofhandwritten journal about her
uncle.
Mm-hmm.
Um, which was, uh.
Her handwriting was terrible andshe'd scratched out lines
everywhere and put arrows,adding in bits of information,
and I had to decipher thehandwriting and the French to be
able to kind of create him as acharacter in the book.
(41:13):
So it was the most difficultresearch, I would say, just from
the language perspective, whilstI do speak French, you know.
Reading archaic Frenchhandwriting is very challenging.
Madeleine Cleary (41:27):
Okay, well I wanna talk about then, because I
read this in your newsletter, Ithink at the start of this year,
I thought it was reallyinspiring you.
You said that you wanted to makeoptimism, um, your 2025 word and
this your goal.
So I wanna talk about that.
'cause this year it is a bit ofan uncertain year and in lots of
different ways, which we alludedto earlier.
Um.
(41:47):
So what are your goals for theMademoiselle Alliance, Natasha?
Natasha Lester (41:51):
Well, my main goal is.
I'd like as many people aspossible to read it because then
they will know Marie-MadeleineFourcade's name.
And also I've said that at itspeak, the network was 3000
people.
439 of those people died.
And I bet nobody could name asingle one of those people who
died.
And yet, if it wasn't for thosepeople, the world could be a
(42:14):
very different place.
So just for pe for them not tohave died for nothing.
'cause that's honestly, whenyou're doing this kind of
research, that's kind of what itfeels like.
Yes.
That nobody remembers them atall.
And we really should rememberthem.
So, um, you know, standing byher grave and standing by Leon's
Memorial and other memorials,it, it felt a little bit futile.
(42:37):
But then you remember.
No, you know, Adolf Hitler diedand the Nazis, um, did not exist
anymore because of those people.
And so the repercussions of whatthey did, we we're still able to
enjoy and hopefully willcontinue to be able to enjoy.
But at this crucial mument intime, I feel like her story is
(42:58):
more pertinent than ever.
So my.
Optimistic goal is thateverybody reads it and realizes
that how much one person can dobecause she, like I said, she
didn't have military training orintelligence training.
She was just an ordinary person.
Yes.
Like you try, and yet she wasable to lead 3000 people to help
France free itself off theNazis.
(43:18):
So we can all be Marie-MadeleineFourcade we.
You know, believe that we can,and we have a little bit of
bravery and a bit of couragewhen we need to.
It's amazing how much differenceone person can make.
So, absolutely, that's myoptimistic goal, is that people
read it and walk away feelinglike that, and then go and do
something to, you know, helpchange the world.
Madeleine Cleary (43:39):
I love that.
That's a great, great goal tohave.
Okay, well I think that's gonnainspire a lot of people and I
hope everybody buys this copy.
'cause I think I'm hoping thatthis book will absolutely fly
this year in Australia.
In all your markets.
I read that you've, your bookshave been translated into 21
different languages, which isjust incredible.
Natasha Lester (43:57):
Yeah, that's pretty crazy.
Madeleine Cleary (43:59):
Oh, it's amazing.
It's amazing.
Um.
I've got two last questions.
One I wanted to talk about, Iwanted to continue on the goal
theme.
What do you think we, as sort ofearly emerging writers, debut
writers, what should, how shouldwe define our goals?
Like, what, what should we aimfor, do you think?
Um, we obviously, um, are notprobably aiming to be a New York
(44:21):
Times bestseller.
Um, but what, what, what's someof the things that we should do?
What's a realistic goal?
For us.
Natasha Lester (44:27):
Why not?
And New York Times vessel.
Like, honestly, like if I, Ididn't ever have those things on
my list because I didn't everthink it was possible.
But the thing I always try andsay to um, new writers now is if
it can happen to me, like it canhappen to anybody.
So you should neverunderestimate yourself.
Um, and I think as writers sooften.
(44:48):
We don't have the confidence tocall ourselves writers.
We don't have the confidence tobelieve that we can be a
bestseller.
We're almost apologetic, um, toour publishers who need our
books to be able to have booksin bookstores.
So, you know, that would be whatI would say to have the, to have
whatever crazy out there goalsyou want to, because they are
(45:10):
all absolutely achievable and.
Why not walk through the worldthinking, God, I'd love to be a
New York Times bestseller thanthinking, oh gosh, I'm really
lucky to get published and, youknow, I'll just, you know, go
and look at my book in a bookshop.
You know?
I mean, and that's all greattoo, but why not have a bigger
goal if you want to, that isobviously you don't have to, but
if you do love that, helpyourself out.
Madeleine Cleary (45:31):
Okay.
So everybody has to write ontheir bucket list.
Yes, they do.
Write your times best seller.
Yep.
Put it up there.
Put it on the fridge.
Put it on the back of the toiletdoor, wherever you want.
Yep.
There's no, no shame in havingthose goals.
No shame at
all.
Okay.
So we always ask, um, at the endof our podcasts, um, you, you've
already shared with us so manyof these, but we ask for your
(45:52):
single top tip for emergingrider.
What would you like to leave uswith?
Natasha Lester.
I.
Natasha Lester (45:58):
I feel like probably everybody might say
this, but I feel it's even moreimportant now, is to read.
I really feel like, I mean, Irecently judged the TAG
Hungerford Award a couple ofyears ago and I could tell who
read books and who did not readbooks.
That's 97 manuscripts that Iread in full, um, over that time
(46:18):
and.
Because the market is a bittricky at the mument and things
are gonna keep changing andthey're going to keep evolving
at a more rapid pace than theyhave been over the last kind of
10 years.
You need to read more and moreand more read things you don't
like, read things you do, likeread things you think are bad,
read things you think are good.
(46:39):
Try not to have those judgementsabout books.
Um, you know, if they're beingpublished by a publisher.
Then the publisher thinksthere's something about them
that will engage readers.
So what is it about those thingsthat will engage readers and
read critically?
You know, like look at why doesthis book work for me?
Or why does it not work for me?
Because in understanding whatyou don't like to read, you
(47:00):
learn more about your own voiceas a writer and your own
personal interests, and you haveto bring.
What's particular to you, toyour own writing.
And if you don't know what thatis, then you can't bring it to
your writing.
So reading helps you to developthat sense.
Mm-hmm.
Um, it's a subconscious gutthing.
You couldn't probably sit downand notate it out, but the
(47:20):
reading helps with all of thosethings.
Madeleine Cleary (47:22):
Hmm, great advice I think, and um, why not
go and enjoy reading as well.
We are all, if we're writing, wegenerally like to be readers as
well, so go out and enjoy andread different things.
And I hope everybody reads theMademoiselle Alliance, which
will be coming out on the 26thof March.
Thank you so much, NatashaLester for joining us on the
book Deal podcast.
Natasha Lester (47:40):
Thank you.
We're so much fun chatting toyou.
Tina Strachan (47:47):
Thank you for listening to the book Deal
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new apps drop and to keep
up to date with what the pod isdoing.
You can also find us onInstagram.
This is the Book Deal podcast
Madeleine Cleary (00:10):
where you will discover the inspiring stories,
the authors behind yourfavourite books.
No matter what stage of writingyou are at, we've got you
covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one
Tina Strachan (00:26):
deal
Madeleine Cleary (00:26):
at a time.
The Book Deal Podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners of the land and waters,which it's recorded on.
And pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging.
Hi, it's Madeleine here with 11novels to her name,
(00:46):
international bestselling andPerth based author.
Natasha Lester is a writer whoneeds no introduction.
Her novels have been translatedinto 21 languages and are
published all around the world.
I finished Natasha's latestnovel, the Mademoiselle Alliance
the night before our chat, and Istruggled to contain my
fangirling before we hit record.
(01:09):
I love Natasha's messages towriters in this one about
writing your way to success bywriting what you love.
I.
Being brave to set crazy goals,setting time aside to work on
the business behind being awriter, and of course, our chat
about her latest novel.
Inspired by the incredibleMarie-Madeleine Fourcade, the
only woman to lead a resistancemovement in World War II in
(01:32):
France.
Hi, Natasha Lester.
Welcome to the book Dealpodcast.
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm really looking forward tochatting today.
Oh, I'm just so excited to haveyou on and I just wanted to
reflect on, I'm sure if youremember the first time we met
in person, Natasha.
Natasha Lester (01:53):
Remind me, I will remember there were so many
things in my brain, I keepsaying to my publicist, I'm so
worried that half of them arefalling out somewhere.
Madeleine Cleary (02:01):
Maybe I shouldn't remind you'cause it's
a bit of an embarrassing storyfor me.
So it was back when you were onpublicity tour.
For the Disappearance of AstridBricard.
Okay.
Natasha Lester (02:11):
I feel I signed a book for you, didn't I?
You did.
You did.
I, I remember it all.
Coming back to it now.
I knew it would,
Madeleine Cleary (02:17):
and this book was actually one that I had not
purchased, and I ran out of thestore.
No, no, no, no, no.
So what, for listeners, whathappened?
'cause this event was reallypopular.
There were so many people and Ihadn't had a chance to go and
buy the book.
And when they called up thesigning line, the signing line
was huge.
And I said to my mum, go grab acopy so I can quickly get in
(02:38):
line so I'm not gonna be, youknow, waiting in line for hours.
And um, mum's like, yep, noworries.
I'm like, I'll stand in line,mum, you go buy it.
She's like, yep.
Got it.
Got it.
Um, and so went and had a lovelychat with you, Natasha.
You were so gracious and solovely.
And then mum and I were walkingoutta the store and I said, oh,
mum, let me know how much totransfer you.
I signed
Natasha Lester (02:58):
the stolen book.
I remember
Madeleine Cleary (03:03):
I was horrified.
We just looked at each otheroutside and we're like, what do
we do?
Natasha Lester (03:10):
No, that was great.
I've never signed a stolen bookbefore.
It's like a highlight.
Not that you know of.
Not that you know of.
Yeah, not that I know of.
True.
Madeleine Cleary (03:19):
Um, also, I did go back and purchase the
book.
Natasha Lester (03:22):
Of course, being an author, you would know
Madeleine Cleary (03:25):
exactly.
Now we are about to, you areabout to launch upon, uh, your
new book, which is coming out,um, on the 26th of March in
Australia.
And.
You've got a bunch ofinternational releases coming as
well from the MademoiselleAlliance, which I've just read
and it is brilliant.
Natasha Lester (03:41):
Thank you so much.
And I'm so excited to read somany books for this podcast, so
thank you.
Madeleine Cleary (03:46):
Oh no, it was, um, an easy one to read and I
just absolutely adored it and wewill talk about it.
But I wanna sort of go back tothe start because we're all
about talking about book dealson this podcast.
Yep.
You have so much experience toshare.
And when I was doing someresearch, I realized your first
novel, or your first historicalfiction novel was published in
(04:07):
2016.
Yes,
Tina Strachan (04:09):
that's
Madeleine Cleary (04:09):
right.
That was only nine years ago.
You've released nine historicalfiction books in nine years, is
that correct?
Natasha Lester (04:17):
Um, yeah.
It must be.
I'm, I'm looking over at myshelf now.
K 2, 4, 6, 8.
Yes, this'll benu.
Is this number nine?
Yeah, it is.
It's number nine.
Oh my gosh.
Great.
Madeleine Cleary (04:27):
Which is amazing.
How, how, how have you, are youokay?
Like,
Natasha Lester (04:34):
no, um, I do go through phases of intense, like
brain fatigue and, you know,every now and again, I mean, it
sounds like I've had one a year,but I haven't had one every
year.
Mm-hmm.
Like my last book was 18 monthsago, and then I've had a couple
of other 18 month stints inbetween, so I've had.
18 months is a rest for me.
(04:54):
Um, but yes, I suspect that thatpace will slow down as the years
progress.
And I get older and older.
Madeleine Cleary (05:01):
Well, I hope not because we love having them
out in the world every year,even if there is an 18 months
break in between.
Um.
You didn't actually start inhistorical fiction.
Your first two novels werecontemporary.
Um, can you maybe talk about,um, how you got your deal for
your very first book, which iswhat is left over after.
Natasha Lester (05:23):
Yes.
So I had written that as part ofa university master's program
and like all young hopefulmaster's graduates, I'd sent it
out into the big wide world andlike it was a long time ago, so
that was published in 2010.
So I was sending this out around2007 and.
Agents were still asking youback then to send it by post.
(05:46):
Oh my gosh.
Email.
I know that's how old I'm,that's the worst part of this
story.
Right.
Um, so I had posted my chaptersand query letters out to the.
Like three or four agents thatwere accepting submissions in
Australia at the time.
It wasn't like now where theyhave open periods.
It was very hard to just send anunsolicited, um, submission to
(06:09):
an agent and they'd all rejectedme, um, quite, quite nicely in
many cases with lovely,handwritten.
Handwritten, not even tight.
Wow.
I know.
Have you kept them?
Yeah, I have, I've got a folderof them.
Of course I scrapbook.
Yeah.
It could be worth
Madeleine Cleary (06:24):
money
Natasha Lester (06:24):
in Future, Natasha.
Madeleine Cleary (06:25):
That's right.
Natasha Lester (06:27):
Um, and then I'd sent it off to a couple of
publishers as well, who were,again, at that time open, which
again, wasn't many because theydidn't, you know, publishers
these days that have, um, openslash piles that you can send.
Mm-hmm.
That wasn't the case back then.
Um, and pretty much everyone hadrejected me, which was only
about, you know, like fivepeople in total.
And so in Western Australia wehave the TAG Hungerford Award
(06:50):
for fiction, and that's an awardfor any, um, unpublished
manuscript written by a WestAustralian author or someone
with a Strachan connection to waI live in wa so, and I'd known
about that award forever.
And, and that was always on mykind of goals list.
So I submitted it to theHungerford.
Crossed my fingers.
It's about, um, nine months, thejudging process.
(07:12):
So you don't hear anything for areally long time.
Wow, that's a lot.
Yeah, it's probably changedagain, this is like such a long
time ago.
I'm sure it must be quicker now.
And um, then I got contacted andtold I was on the shortlist.
With other people and I wassuper excited, but I was also
quite despondent because, um, aright friend of mine, Julian Van
(07:32):
Lone, had recently won theAustralian Vogel Award when that
existed.
And she'd been called by thejudges before the night of the
award ceremony to tell her thatshe'd won.
So she had a speech ready.
So, of course, me being me, Iassume this was how all literary
awards done.
Worked and no one had called meto tell me to get my speech
ready for the Tag Hunger FootAwards.
(07:54):
We haven't won, obviously.
So I went along on the nightthinking, oh God, I haven't won.
What am I gonna do?
This is like my luck.
Literally my last chance I, Idon't know.
And my husband said later.
He was driving me there and hewas thinking the same thing.
Oh my God, what are we gonna do?
You know, she's not gonna, she'snot gonna win'cause she hasn't
got the phone call.
It's gonna be, she's gonna be sosad.
How am I gonna cope with herafterwards?
(08:16):
Anyway, so these two despondentpeople were driving along to
this award ceremony and then wearrive and they pull out the
envelope and I'm.
Looking around the room at thetwo other short listees trying
to scope out which one it'sgoing to be.
And then they read my name outand I have literally never been
more surprised in my life.
So yeah, so I won that and thatcame with the publishing
(08:38):
contract.
Still, that's, the awards stillexist.
It still comes with a publishingcontract and it's such a great
award because it's launched thecareers of so many.
West Australian authors likeHolden Shepherd won that award
for in Boys, which is nowobviously a Stan Yes.
Phenomenon.
Um, so it's just a reallyvaluable part of the West
Australian Biden community.
Madeleine Cleary (08:57):
When you did get shortlisted and when you
were ultimately won, what wasthat feeling like?
That first time?
Because is that the firstvalidation you got for your
writing or were there otherthings that you were submitting?
Natasha Lester (09:10):
Um, I know I had submitted some poems and short
stories in the couple of years,probably more than the couple of
years prior, probably the fiveyears prior to that.
Um.
In fact, the very, I had thislike beginner's luck.
The very first thing that I eversent off to anyone was a poem to
Overland Magazine, which I don'tknow if that just still exists.
(09:31):
Yes, it was a very famousliterary magazine and I'd
written it as.
Part of a university assignment.
My tutor had said it was greatand I should try and submit it,
sent it off by post again with astamped, self-addressed
envelope.
Oh my god, I'm so old.
And, um, my stampedself-addressed envelope arrived
back in the mail and I thoughtit was gonna have the standard
rejection letter in it, and ithad a check for a hundred
(09:52):
dollars and an acceptance lettersaying it was going to be
published.
And so.
After that initial beginners,like obviously things did not
always run that smoothly withevery other submission that I
had sent out after that, but Ikept sending out poems and short
stories, and so I'd had a few ofthose published, but it's not
the same.
I think when your ambition is tobe a novelist, it's not until
(10:14):
you know that your novel isgoing to be published that you
feel like you can really callyourself a writer.
I'm like, I still.
We would go to parties andpeople would ask me what I did,
and I would never have said, oh,I'm a writer.
Mm-hmm.
I would've said, I'm studyingwriting or something like that.
But then once I knew that bookwas gonna be published, it was
like, now I'm an author.
Madeleine Cleary (10:33):
Isn't that strange though, how we have this
imposter syndrome about it?
It absolutely, yeah.
Yeah.
Anyone that writes as a writer,it's, it's, there's, you know,
it's, that's quite interesting.
So, um, seven.
So you win this award, um.
How, at what point did youdecide I want to be a writer?
Maybe just to yourself.
(10:53):
You might not have told otherpeople about it.
Yeah.
Oh,
Natasha Lester (10:55):
no.
When I was little, like my mumhas all of these poems and
little books that I wrote andillustrated when I was young.
Um, I always loved writing.
I always loved reading, and Ialways wrote things throughout
my whole childhood.
And it was if, when I wasreading a book.
And I had that, you know, I fellinto the story and had that
(11:18):
Strachan sense of being takenaway to some other time placed,
uh, person inhabiting someoneelse's life.
I would always think, wow,imagine being able to.
Make people feel like this.
Like that must, that's like asuperpower to me.
It was.
And so from then on I wanted tobe a writer.
I just took me, you know, a longtime to get there, but
Madeleine Cleary (11:38):
was there.
And so you've always wanted todo it.
Was there a point where yousaid, okay, I'm gonna start
doing it, and how do you, how doyou start when you get that?
When you decide, okay, this iswhat I wanna do.
Natasha Lester (11:49):
So for me, uh, when I was in year 12, uh, and
everyone was selecting theiruniversity courses that they
were going to do, I still wantedto be a writer then, but.
WA, there wasn't really acreative writing course that
existed at university back then.
There was journalism and Ididn't really wanna be a
journalist, but that was theonly thing similar.
(12:09):
So I ended up doing a Bachelorof Commerce and I majored in
marketing and public relations'cause that had this kind of
writing element to it because Ididn't know what else to do.
I didn't know how to be awriter.
Like, you know, there was nokind of apprenticeship or
pathway like there was, if youwanted to be a teacher or a
doctor, there was this veryclear kind of pathway to follow
and very clear set of objectivesthat you had to achieve along
(12:32):
the way.
So I just, and back then therewasn't the wealth of
information.
On the internet.
'cause the internet didn't existback then when I was leaving
high school.
That was like this far fludream.
Didn't even have mobile phones.
Oh my God, I'm so old.
Um, so I didn't, I know how toaccess the kind of information
that might have helped me to beable to become a writer, but I
(12:55):
also Strachanly believed thatback then at age 17, I didn't
have the emotional range that Ineeded to be able to be a
writer.
So it was actually a good thingthat I went and did a completely
different degree.
Then I worked in marketing for10 or 12 years and then my
husband had had to follow me toMelbourne for my work.
(13:16):
And then when he had to go backto Perth for his job, um, I
obviously went with him.
I didn't stay in Melbourne and.
Meant quitting my marketing jobthat I had at L'Oreal.
Um, you know, I was marketingmanager for Maybelline.
It was, that
Madeleine Cleary (13:30):
sounds so romantic.
Natasha Lester (13:32):
It was, it was really fun.
And, you know, coming to Perthwhere there weren't companies
with their head offices locatedhere back then, so there wasn't
the same kind of marketing jobavailable.
And that was when I thought,well, I've still got this idea
in the back of my mind aboutbeing a writer.
Maybe rather than just gettingany old marketing job, I go back
(13:54):
to university because now thereare creative writing courses at
university and I give it, giveit a try because it's all very
well to think you wanna be awriter, but.
The actual practice of being awriter, like maybe it would've
been different to what Ithought.
Maybe I wouldn't have enjoyedit.
So I wanted to check that first.
And also, obviously the mostimportant thing is to find out
if I was any good at it becauseyou know, my amateurs amateur,
(14:17):
childish kind of books for notvery good.
So I needed to kind of testmyself.
So I did go back to universityand I.
Um, found out that I loved it.
Got my poem published, so thatwas like, okay, well maybe I
have some ability to do it.
And I kept going from there.
So that was really, um, I'vecompletely forgotten what you
(14:38):
actually asked me.
Did I answer your question?
Oh my God,
Madeleine Cleary (14:41):
absolutely.
I'm interested actually.
Um, I.
Few writers now that have hadmarketing and public relations
backgrounds.
Interesting.
Which is, yeah, reallyinteresting.
And I suppose it goes into thatadvertising marketing space
where you are being a bit morecreative, um, but to, in order
to make money, um, yes.
Natasha Lester (15:00):
And also I guess you're telling a story when
you're going out to consumerswith a brand, you are saying to
them, imagine yourself withthis.
And so you have to create astory around that.
So I feel like, you know, I canunderstand that.
Madeleine Cleary (15:12):
Yes.
And actually authors are alwaystold that we have to tell the
story behind the story Exactlyas well.
That's been something that I'm,I'm learning how to do.
Um, with my debut coming out,what, how's your marketing
background helped you, do youthink?
Has it helped you in yourwriting life?
Um, and what maybe tips do youhave for, for emerging writers?
Natasha Lester (15:34):
I definitely think it has helped me because
it's, it's hard.
There are.
You know, a number of schoolshave thought out there about
whether writers should orshouldn't think about their
readers and their audience.
And you know, when you get intomarketing and you drill down to
things like target audiences,like it sounds icky when you put
(15:54):
that into like a writing in abook kind of space.
But.
I mean, mostly I would imaginethat people are writing to be
read, and so therefore you arein the, at the end of the day
trying to reach a customer.
So having that ability to.
Appreciate the art of what I'mdoing, but understand that
(16:17):
there's a business side of it aswell, I think has actually been
really helpful and I don't feelembarrassed or ashamed about
acknowledging there is abusiness side to this and some
writers don't want to thinkabout that, and that's
absolutely fine.
Everyone is different andeverybody should approach it the
way that feels most comfortableto them.
But I don't know whether I wouldhave achieved the success that I
(16:42):
have achieved if I hadn't havebeen able to consider at least
the business aspects of being awriter as well.
I mean, you are a CEO of yourown business, and you are
required to.
Invent the idea for the product,then create the product.
Market the product, manage yourbudgets.
Um, do all your finances.
(17:03):
Yes, do strategy for yourself.
Like, where do I wanna be infive years time?
That's up to you to decide.
So, and all those kinds ofthings I had to do in marketing.
It was all strategy, ideas,product creation.
Finance, budgeting, et cetera.
So it's been really useful.
And my big piece of advice towriters would be to just, you
know, spend some time thinkingabout whether or not.
(17:26):
You know, giving yourself a bitof a, a day every couple of
months to think about the morebusiness aspects of writing
would be useful to you.
And for some people it'll belike, no, that will totally
dampen my creativity and I won'tbe able to write.
And if that's the case, then youshouldn't do that.
But for other people it might beworthwhile.
And, you know, giving yourself abusiness day that you formally
(17:47):
kind of set aside in yourcalendar.
Can be a really good thing'causeit forces you to acknowledge the
other elements that there are tobeing a writer.
Madeleine Cleary (17:56):
Oh no, I think that's excellent advice and I
think you are an example ofsomeone that's really built your
brand really, really well.
And I, I know we cringe ascreatives to hear that, but, but
it is true when true people say,I wanna, yeah.
You know, it's a Natasha Lesterbook.
They know, they know.
You know that they're gonna geta really well written,
beautifully crafted, wellresearched novel.
(18:18):
Is that what you'd intended fromthe start?
Because your two first books of,you've re, you've first released
your two books, which werecontemporary fiction, and then
you've, um, since then, um,published historical fiction
with Ette.
Was that a deliberate decisionor was it just what you want to
write?
Natasha Lester (18:34):
It's funny how little intention has gone into a
lot of the things that I'vedone, but you're absolutely
right when you say that, youknow.
We don't like to think ofourselves as brands, but that's
how the publishers think of you.
You know?
Mm-hmm.
When someone is submitting, theywanna know the comp titles.
They wanna know what two booksor three books, this is like, or
(18:56):
will appeal to the readershipsof those.
Comp Titles are really importantout for publishers, and that's
really saying.
I think my brand aligns withthis author brand is really what
you're saying when you'repicking those comp titles on
your pitch document.
So, um, so it is important tothink about that stuff, but sort
of when I moved fromcontemporary fiction to
(19:17):
historical fiction, it was a bitof an accident.
I had written a thirdcontemporary that I thought I
would get published, but it wasa horrible writing experience.
It was a terrible book.
Um, I threw it in the bin and,um.
Sort of didn't know.
It was a bit of a loose end,didn't know what to do.
It was a bit of a crisis mument,I suppose, for me.
(19:38):
Mm-hmm.
I didn't have the difficultsecond book.
I had the difficult third book.
I'm obviously a bit delayed.
What made
Madeleine Cleary (19:42):
it difficult?
Because I know a lot of peoplefind this.
Natasha Lester (19:45):
Yeah.
For me it was, um, I thinkbecause I'd written my first
book as part of a universitymaster's program.
Back then.
I think it's very different nowand it's much more open at the
universities.
There was an, a very Strachanexpectation about the kind of
book you would write as part ofthat master's program.
And it needed to be serious andweighty and heavy and sad and
(20:10):
grim, almost like it.
Um, and so I wrote two bookslike that.
Um, and then I just, I think I'drun out of that kind of energy
by the third.
It wasn't, they sound veryconsuming.
Yeah, I could ride like that,but it wasn't really me.
Um, I needed a bit more light, alittle bit more love, a little
(20:32):
bit more, um, ability to, um,shape the female characters and
a less kind of.
Vulnerably victimy kind of way.
Maybe.
Um, you're finding beauty, Ithink, in your novels.
Madeleine Cleary (20:46):
You are, you're finding this beau like
this during trouble times.
'cause there's still a lot ofdarkness in your, in your books.
Yes,
Natasha Lester (20:53):
absolutely.
Madeleine Cleary (20:53):
But there's these muments of light and
beauty, which is what I loveabout your writing.
So just Oh, thank
Natasha Lester (20:58):
you.
Yeah.
I mean that's I guess reallywhat I'm trying to do, but I
didn't know that then Iliterally just pulled all my
favourite books off my bookshelfand I.
Reread them.
And that was when I realizedthat so many of them were
historical fiction.
And I hadn't ever really thoughtto myself before, oh, I love
historical fiction, but Iclearly did love historical
fiction.
And then the smart part of mybrain went, oh, why don't you
(21:21):
try writing historical fictionthen?
And I was like, oh, that's areally good idea.
So I did.
Um, so it wasn't intentional andit wasn't planned.
Um, and same thing when I beganto write the Jewel narratives.
Um.
After my third historical, thatwas again, an accident.
It wasn't intentional.
And then that bit and the wholeFrench thing wasn't intentional
(21:42):
really, because it all seems sostrategic, Natasha, when you
look at
Madeleine Cleary (21:45):
it
Natasha Lester (21:45):
in
Madeleine Cleary (21:45):
retrospect, perhaps.
Natasha Lester (21:47):
I think it's all I was pursuing my interest in
doing what I loved, and that'salso a really key thing I think
for people.
You've gotta.
Write about the things that youmost love, because when you're
doing it, the readers will feelthe love.
And but then that was how thebrand shaped out of me just
writing about the kinds ofthings that I really enjoyed
exploring in my novel.
(22:07):
So, um, no, it wasn'tintentional.
And, and so I, I think thatdefinitely in writing there is
that.
Uh, push and pull and balancebetween some of the stuff is
just very magical andspontaneous and going with your
gut.
And then there is this kind ofbusiness element to things as
well, and you've gotta have bothparts playing, um, off against
(22:29):
each other at the same
Madeleine Cleary (22:30):
time.
Would you, so, um, is historicalfiction, is that where you're
going to stay, do you think?
Because there are a lot of,there's a lot of talk about, um,
writers sticking, and I knowpublishers enjoy when writers
stay in the genre.
Have you ever had thisdiscussion?
Natasha Lester (22:46):
Yes.
Well, it's interesting,particularly in America, um, at
the mument because obviouslythat's my biggest market, simply
because more people in America,right?
So if you are selling booksthere and hitting bestseller
list there, you're justnaturally gonna sell more
copies.
And, um, similarly to here,historical fiction has been
declining over the last year, acouple of years or so.
(23:07):
You know, we had this goldenrun, which is a bit like what
romantic and crime having now.
Eventually they'll reach kind oftheir decline, their peak and
start to decline.
It happens with every genre thatkind of has the, has this big
burst.
So in the US there's been a lotof talk about pivoting, which
is, I hate that word, but that'swhat the word that everybody is
using over there.
(23:28):
And writers are being encouragedfor the, which I think is great
because it's not normal to.
Take a bit of a turn and to keepsome of the hallmarks of their
brand, but to maybe explore adifferent direction.
So I've got, there's
Madeleine Cleary (23:40):
romantic in your future, Natasha?
Natasha Lester (23:42):
No, romantic is not in my future.
It's in my daughter's future.
She adores those books, which isgreat that she's reading them.
Um, so no, my, I've got a bookcoming out.
It probably next year it'll beout because I've submitted that.
Um, and that while still havinga historical.
Element to it has some quitedifferent pivot, I guess you
would call them.
(24:03):
Mm-hmm.
Elements to it as well.
And, um, that was super, superfun to write.
I had a great time writing thatbook.
Madeleine Cleary (24:10):
Okay.
Pivoting.
Okay.
I'm gonna remember that.
That's an interesting Yeah.
Way of describing it.
Um, I wanna talk about the USactually.
It's a bit of a, a dream, Ithink for all emerging writers
and day writers to, to bepublished internationally.
Um.
And, and particularly in the USmarket, there's a, like you
said, it is your biggest market.
Can you talk a little bit aboutyour experience becoming New
(24:32):
York Times bestseller and Ibelieve it was, um, perhaps
Penny from Costco that mighthave assisted, is that right?
Natasha Lester (24:38):
Yeah, so thank God for Penny.
I always say, um, so I hadpublished two historical novels
with, has shared Australia,which hadn't been.
Publish internationally at all.
And then my third historical wasthe Paris Seamstress, and that
was picked up by a publisher inthe US and which I thought was
fantastic, but I was also quitepessimistic about it because I
(24:59):
just didn't see why people sofar away would read a book
written by an author fromAustralia.
Madeleine Cleary (25:05):
But it is, there's a lot of very much set
in New York though as well.
Natasha Lester (25:09):
Yes, exactly.
But I don't know whether I wasjust setting my expectations low
or something.
I don't know.
So I was just happy that it wasbeing published, but didn't
expect it to do anything verymuch.
Um, and it was published inAugust of 2018 and.
It had a recently, like a betterprint run just kick off than I
(25:32):
thought.
Mm-hmm.
And just kept getting reprinted,just little reprints, um,
because people just sort of keptbuying it.
And so that was all gone quitewell.
Like, I was pretty happy with itas it was.
It didn't, and I still didn'thave any more expectations for
it until.
This email arrived in my inbox,it must have been late October,
early November.
So this is a couple of monthsafter publication and my editor
(25:55):
in New York said to me, oh myGod.
And she used ex exclamationmarks.
And when a publisher usesexclamation marks, you know,
it's exciting'cause they hateexclamation marks, right?
Um, and she said the Parisseamstress is a Penny's pick for
December.
And I'm like, who the fuck isPenny?
I.
(26:17):
Um, and she clearly got thesense from my reply that I was
underwhelmed and not taking thisinformation on in the way I
should be.
So she then came back to me witha full explanation of who Penny
was.
She was the main buyer forCostco.
Costco's like your big box, um,department store in the us Their
massive, they didn't sell manybooks, but the ones they sell,
(26:39):
they take a lot of stock of.
And Kenny would choose one bookeach month, um, from all the
books.
Available and it would be herpick.
And people had come to trust herpick.
I love that.
I know.
It was a real, it was like theRece Witherspoon book.
Yes.
I was just gonna say Foxdepartment stores.
Oh my God.
It was, she's an influencer.
Penny's an early, and she, she'sdoesn't do it anymore, which she
(27:02):
is such a dream.
I know.
So she interviews the author andyou have a big, um, article in
the Costco magazine, which goesout to, you know, millions of
households all over America.
And you walk into the store andthere's Penny's pick right at
the front of the store.
And the, the cherry on, theicing on the cake was that it
was December's pick.
So that's Christmas, right?
(27:23):
Oh, everyone's walking intoCostco to get a Christmas gift,
and there is the powerseamstress sitting right there
saying I'm the perfect Christmaspresent.
And they bought it.
And they bought it.
And they bought it.
And they bought it.
To the extent that.
My publisher ran out ofexclamation marks every time she
gave me a sales update.
'cause it was just so astoundingfor both of us, the kind of
(27:43):
numbers that we were moving.
Um, and then like in February,so six months after publication,
target came on board as a new,um, a new retailer like that.
Doesn't like that was amazing.
So then it had this wholenother.
Um, another boost from that, um,which meant that by the time my
next book came out, which, um,was called the French
(28:04):
Photographer here in Australia,the Paris Orphan in America.
That came out in the October,uh, September of 2019, that went
straight to the new New YorkTimes bestseller list, which was
a another.
Pinch me mument.
And again, my editor emailed mewith exclamation marks saying,
oh my gosh, the Paris Orman ison the New York Times bestseller
(28:24):
list.
And then she said, you can crossthat off your bucket list.
And I was like, I don't have iton my bucket list.
'cause it seemed soextraordinarily.
Unlikely to happen.
So yes, I did get out a piece ofpaper and write bucket list on
top and write it on there justso I could cross it out.
(28:46):
Hello, listeners.
My name is Angie Cui.
I'm a member of Debut Crew 2025.
I'm so happy to share my firstbook with you.
It's called My Mum is Bird,which was released on the 1st of
April through UQP.
This touching story celebratesthe differences and the beauty
of loving your family feathersand all.
(29:07):
Its parents, and parents stay atschool.
The child doesn't want to askthe mum to come to school.
This is all because the mum is abird, an actual bird.
Having a bird.
mum seems to stand out for allthe wrong reasons, especially in
the human world.
After feeling embarrassed tobring the bird mum along, the
(29:27):
child slowly realized that eventhough the mum is a bird, she's
pretty cool.
After all the stories inspiredby one of my friend's daily
life, the book reminds usfamilies can come in all shapes
and sizes.
My Mum is a Bird is out now,available in bookstores.
I cannot wait for you to meet mycharacters and experience this
(29:50):
heartwarming story.
Thank you so much to the BookDeal podcast for allowing me to
pop in this episode.
And thank you all for listeningand happy reading.
Madeleine Cleary (30:05):
What does it mean to authors to be on the New
York Times Bestsellers list?
Natasha Lester (30:09):
It's exciting because it's really, it's still
one thing.
I don't know how much longer itwill be meaningful for in the
current kind of very fragmentedmedia environment, but it still
is meaningful to.
People, um, it's meaningful tobookstores, it's meaningful to
readers, so it kind of justgives you, um, a, a little bit
(30:32):
more, um, authority, I guess.
And also, you know, in Australiathere's not that many writers
that have made the list, so it'skind of, um.
You know, it, it, it's an, it'ssuch an honor.
Do you know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
Like, it really feels like anhonor.
Um, and
Madeleine Cleary (30:48):
we don't really have an Australian
equivalent unless we say anAustralian bestseller
Natasha Lester (30:52):
coach.
No.
We don't really have anAustralian equivalent at all.
So we need to start that becauseonly UK's
Madeleine Cleary (30:56):
the Times best seller.
Exactly.
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Natasha Lester (30:59):
All these.
Madeleine Cleary (31:00):
Australian bestseller maybe.
Yeah, maybe you can put that.
Okay.
I wanna talk about theMademoiselle Alliance, which I'm
very much hopeful will be on theNew York Times bestseller list.
Fingers crossed.
Fingers crossed.
Yeah.
Goals 2025 goals.
Yeah.
Um, but before we do, can youtell me about the first time you
heard about Marie-MadeleineFourcade?
So
Natasha Lester (31:19):
I had come across her name maybe just twice
in nonfiction books that I hadread about the Second World War
over the years because I've readquite a few for research for my
other books and she'd beenmentioned in passing, um, in
connection to the resistance andcertainly.
Never to me, to my knowledge,mentioned as the leader, the
(31:43):
only female leader of thelargest resistance network in
France.
Like that piece of vitalinformation was missing from the
books that I had read.
And I wonder
Madeleine Cleary (31:50):
why as well.
Yeah,
Natasha Lester (31:52):
I know.
Um, so I didn't know that shewas that important nor what she
had done until I sat down anddecided to.
By her memoir on a bit of a whimreally, of looking for a, a next
book idea and read her memoirand thought, oh my gosh, this is
who I'm writing about.
I can't think about anybodyelse.
Madeleine Cleary (32:12):
So do you wanna tell me a bit about her
life then, and what was thewhat, what really inspired you?
When were you like, oh, this isa book, I have to write this
story.
Natasha Lester (32:22):
There were so many muments where I thought
that it's like almost impossibleto pick one.
So she, she grew up in Shanghai.
Her father, um, worked on theFrench, uh, merchant Marine
service.
And so she grew up in the Frenchconcession of Shanghai because
obviously back then, um, youknow, there was a French
concession there.
(32:43):
Mm-hmm.
Um, so she had this veryextraordinary childhood being
allowed to kind of roam.
Free through Shanghai with hernanny and her brother and
sister.
And I think that, uh, childhoodreally formed the kind of woman
she became.
But at the same time, she wasalso practicing to be a concert
pianist.
So she was going to sit on thestage at the Egia in.
(33:05):
Um, Paris and play the piano.
Right.
Of course,
Madeleine Cleary (33:08):
she was, nothing surprises me now about
this woman I
Natasha Lester (33:10):
know.
I know.
So eight hours a day she'splaying the piano.
And then her father sadly passedaway and the family had to move
back to Paris.
And a short time later, when shewas 17 years old, she, um, fell
instantly in love with this, um,French military intelligence
officer.
And part of the attraction maybewas that he was about to be
(33:32):
posted to Morocco becauseMorocco was a French colony at
the time.
This is the late, this is thelate 1920s.
And so that would marry him,would mean moving to Morocco and
having probably a similarexperience to what she had in
Shanghai.
So she did that.
Um, and you know, learnt Arabic.
Like, can you imagine a woman in1920s Morocco learning Arabic,
like a blonde, blonde woman?
(33:53):
You know?
I know.
Like it's crazy.
Right?
And she would go out with herhusband, um, to meet the tribal
leaders that he had to talk to,to get information from, for his
role.
She helped, um, women at a localwomen's clinic give birth to
their babies.
Um.
Then she separated from herhusband.
They were very different inpersonality.
(34:13):
She was quite vivacious andoutgoing, and he was not like
that.
Uh, so she took her two childrenback to France with her.
Um,
Madeleine Cleary (34:21):
and at the time that would've been quite
significant too.
Natasha Lester (34:24):
Oh, yes.
She like, you know, a scarlettletter kind of stuff, you know,
separated.
The only way she could get awaywith it was because her husband
was in Morocco.
You could say that you had comeback for the children's
schooling.
So people accepted that as an.
Excuse because the schools inFrance were perceived to do
better than those in Morocco.
Right.
Um, so then she became a carrally driver.
Like she drove in the very earlycar rallies, um, you know, and
(34:46):
did really well on them, like,you know, came third and stuff
like that.
Madeleine Cleary (34:50):
There's a great scene of that in the book,
which I just loved.
How can you leave that right?
Natasha Lester (34:56):
Even if it wasn't plot related.
Loved it.
Loved it.
I know.
You just have to get that inthere.
She flew.
She was a pilot like in thenineties.
I know.
Are you kidding me?
Like, what did not what did thiswoman not do?
Right.
Um, so she also worked as ajournalist for, um, a radio
station in, and she interviewedwomen who were, uh, kind of
progressive, um, for the time inFrance.
(35:16):
So women kind of like her.
Um, and then of course warhappened, um, in 1939.
War was declared and she'd inthe couple of years.
Prior to that, had startedhelping a man called Navar, who
was publishing a newspaper,designed to show the French
people and the French governmentthat Hitler was preparing for
war because people didn'tbelieve that Hitler wanted to
(35:38):
take over Europe.
I don't know why they didn'tbelieve that, but they didn't.
And um, they almost probablydidn't want to believe it.
Did they?
Yeah.
Well, yeah.
And which is.
Similar to Mm.
But that's a conversation for,for another time.
Um, so he was getting informantsto smuggle papers out of
Germany, which Murray Madeleinewould collect from places like
(35:58):
Belgium.
And then they would publish the,the plans of the, um, Nazi
party, um, in terms of theirmilitary strategy.
And
even that kind of information didn't convince
people.
So then, um, the war happens.
Everything they've beenpublishing proves to be true and
accurate, and France is takenover by the Germans and cut in
(36:20):
half.
And Navar forms this, uh,intelligence network, which
becomes a resistance networkthat becomes the terminology for
it.
Um, and he has Marie-Madeleineas his, um, right hand woman.
She's his chief of staffinitially until he is arrested.
And she, I love
Madeleine Cleary (36:38):
how quickly he just like gets arrested and
Marie-Madeleine's like, okay, soI guess I'm gonna take over then
Natasha Lester (36:44):
and an extra, and the extraordinary thing was
that she had no militarytraining.
Yes.
You know, she didn't have anyformal intelligence training.
She was 31 years old, a motherof two kids in this network at
this time, where military mendecades, her senior with
military experience that shedidn't have.
(37:04):
But there was something abouther.
That made those agents and thosemen who, you know, probably had
some pretty chauvinist outlooksall the time, you know, at that
time that was the kind of norm,right?
Mm-hmm.
Yet they accepted her as theirleader.
So that was I.
Number one.
Well, you know, like the, one ofthe extraordinary things that
(37:26):
happened.
And then, so from then on, um,she led up to 3000 agents in
this resistance network thatstretched across the whole of
France and gathered so muchimportant intelligence without
which the war could have endedvery differently.
Madeleine Cleary (37:40):
That's right.
Well, I mean, it, it sounds tome that without.
Intelligence of alliance, youknow, it, it, thousands of more
people would've died.
The war would've kept going.
Um, the intelligence was crucialto the allied invasion of
France, the, the eventual alliedinvasion in 1944.
And this is a direct result.
So why have we not heard abouther before?
Natasha Lester (38:02):
Well, most likely because she's a woman,
sadly.
Um, but also I think it wasbecause Charles.
Charles Degal, as you would sayin French, but let's just call
him Charles Dega because that'seasier.
Um, he created this, um, uh,group called The Companions
Deion.
Mm-hmm.
And he, this was an honor hebestowed on the people he deemed
(38:23):
most fundamental to.
Uh, securing Francis Freedomthroughout the war, and he gave
that honor to 1,038 people.
1,032 of them were men.
Um, so only six of them werewomen, and none of those women
were Marie-Madeleine Fourcade.
Madeleine Cleary (38:41):
Blews My mind when I read that and course
like, what?
This, this I know real
Natasha Lester (38:46):
grant, her subordinates.
Received the award.
Oh, so three people who she wasmanaging and giving priorities
to for their intelligencegathering and managing them,
telling them what to do, etcetera.
They were awarded.
Yeah.
It was
Madeleine Cleary (39:00):
de sha the goal.
Just not like Marie Madeleine.
Natasha Lester (39:03):
Look, I feel like he probably was quite
typical for a man of his time,but given that he did only give
the award to six women, therewere many more than six women
who were of course.
To the French resistance.
Um, so that in and of itselfreflects perhaps his beliefs.
Um, there was also quite sometension between Charles Daal
(39:24):
and, and Navar who foundedClient Network that were not
friends.
And so potentially it arose fromthat as well.
Um.
But I think that when you've gota woman who is excluded from
that list, then history thinks,well, she wasn't important.
Mm.
But
then when the histories are being written, she
doesn't get mentioned becauseshe's not one of the most
crucial people who helped to, toachieve France's freedom.
(39:46):
So I think it probably happened.
From there, uh, is mysupposition anyway.
Madeleine Cleary (39:51):
Hmm.
Well I'm so glad that you havewritten this book because her
story needs to be spread to awider audience and I consider
myself a well-educated person.
The fact that I hadn't heard ofher was really disappointing to
me.
So, um, have you approached theresearch to this story
differently, do you think, thanyour other historical fiction
books?
Natasha Lester (40:11):
Really, other than there was, I mean, I've had
to read lots of French documentsin the past for my books, but
this time almost everything wasin French.
And yes,
Madeleine Cleary (40:21):
I I was very impressed when you said that.
You've, you were, you read theFrench, her French memoir.
Natasha Lester (40:26):
Yeah.
'cause the
Madeleine Cleary (40:27):
English abridged, it was an abridged
version.
That's
Natasha Lester (40:29):
right.
It left a lot of crucial stuffout, so.
I did it pretty much exactly thesame way.
I went to France, traveled inher footsteps, visited all of
the locations where she had herheadquarters, visited her grave,
um, visited other memorials, uh,particularly to a man named Leon
Phi, who was her second incommand.
And I read lots of documents inFrench, including Leon's niece
(40:53):
had written, um, this kind ofhandwritten journal about her
uncle.
Mm-hmm.
Um, which was, uh.
Her handwriting was terrible andshe'd scratched out lines
everywhere and put arrows,adding in bits of information,
and I had to decipher thehandwriting and the French to be
able to kind of create him as acharacter in the book.
(41:13):
So it was the most difficultresearch, I would say, just from
the language perspective, whilstI do speak French, you know.
Reading archaic Frenchhandwriting is very challenging.
Madeleine Cleary (41:27):
Okay, well I wanna talk about then, because I
read this in your newsletter, Ithink at the start of this year,
I thought it was reallyinspiring you.
You said that you wanted to makeoptimism, um, your 2025 word and
this your goal.
So I wanna talk about that.
'cause this year it is a bit ofan uncertain year and in lots of
different ways, which we alludedto earlier.
Um.
(41:47):
So what are your goals for theMademoiselle Alliance, Natasha?
Natasha Lester (41:51):
Well, my main goal is.
I'd like as many people aspossible to read it because then
they will know Marie-MadeleineFourcade's name.
And also I've said that at itspeak, the network was 3000
people.
439 of those people died.
And I bet nobody could name asingle one of those people who
died.
And yet, if it wasn't for thosepeople, the world could be a
(42:14):
very different place.
So just for pe for them not tohave died for nothing.
'cause that's honestly, whenyou're doing this kind of
research, that's kind of what itfeels like.
Yes.
That nobody remembers them atall.
And we really should rememberthem.
So, um, you know, standing byher grave and standing by Leon's
Memorial and other memorials,it, it felt a little bit futile.
(42:37):
But then you remember.
No, you know, Adolf Hitler diedand the Nazis, um, did not exist
anymore because of those people.
And so the repercussions of whatthey did, we we're still able to
enjoy and hopefully willcontinue to be able to enjoy.
But at this crucial mument intime, I feel like her story is
(42:58):
more pertinent than ever.
So my.
Optimistic goal is thateverybody reads it and realizes
that how much one person can dobecause she, like I said, she
didn't have military training orintelligence training.
She was just an ordinary person.
Yes.
Like you try, and yet she wasable to lead 3000 people to help
France free itself off theNazis.
(43:18):
So we can all be Marie-MadeleineFourcade we.
You know, believe that we can,and we have a little bit of
bravery and a bit of couragewhen we need to.
It's amazing how much differenceone person can make.
So, absolutely, that's myoptimistic goal, is that people
read it and walk away feelinglike that, and then go and do
something to, you know, helpchange the world.
Madeleine Cleary (43:39):
I love that.
That's a great, great goal tohave.
Okay, well I think that's gonnainspire a lot of people and I
hope everybody buys this copy.
'cause I think I'm hoping thatthis book will absolutely fly
this year in Australia.
In all your markets.
I read that you've, your bookshave been translated into 21
different languages, which isjust incredible.
Natasha Lester (43:57):
Yeah, that's pretty crazy.
Madeleine Cleary (43:59):
Oh, it's amazing.
It's amazing.
Um.
I've got two last questions.
One I wanted to talk about, Iwanted to continue on the goal
theme.
What do you think we, as sort ofearly emerging writers, debut
writers, what should, how shouldwe define our goals?
Like, what, what should we aimfor, do you think?
Um, we obviously, um, are notprobably aiming to be a New York
(44:21):
Times bestseller.
Um, but what, what, what's someof the things that we should do?
What's a realistic goal?
For us.
Natasha Lester (44:27):
Why not?
And New York Times vessel.
Like, honestly, like if I, Ididn't ever have those things on
my list because I didn't everthink it was possible.
But the thing I always try andsay to um, new writers now is if
it can happen to me, like it canhappen to anybody.
So you should neverunderestimate yourself.
Um, and I think as writers sooften.
(44:48):
We don't have the confidence tocall ourselves writers.
We don't have the confidence tobelieve that we can be a
bestseller.
We're almost apologetic, um, toour publishers who need our
books to be able to have booksin bookstores.
So, you know, that would be whatI would say to have the, to have
whatever crazy out there goalsyou want to, because they are
(45:10):
all absolutely achievable and.
Why not walk through the worldthinking, God, I'd love to be a
New York Times bestseller thanthinking, oh gosh, I'm really
lucky to get published and, youknow, I'll just, you know, go
and look at my book in a bookshop.
You know?
I mean, and that's all greattoo, but why not have a bigger
goal if you want to, that isobviously you don't have to, but
if you do love that, helpyourself out.
Madeleine Cleary (45:31):
Okay.
So everybody has to write ontheir bucket list.
Yes, they do.
Write your times best seller.
Yep.
Put it up there.
Put it on the fridge.
Put it on the back of the toiletdoor, wherever you want.
Yep.
There's no, no shame in havingthose goals.
No shame at
all.
Okay.
So we always ask, um, at the endof our podcasts, um, you, you've
already shared with us so manyof these, but we ask for your
(45:52):
single top tip for emergingrider.
What would you like to leave uswith?
Natasha Lester.
I.
Natasha Lester (45:58):
I feel like probably everybody might say
this, but I feel it's even moreimportant now, is to read.
I really feel like, I mean, Irecently judged the TAG
Hungerford Award a couple ofyears ago and I could tell who
read books and who did not readbooks.
That's 97 manuscripts that Iread in full, um, over that time
(46:18):
and.
Because the market is a bittricky at the mument and things
are gonna keep changing andthey're going to keep evolving
at a more rapid pace than theyhave been over the last kind of
10 years.
You need to read more and moreand more read things you don't
like, read things you do, likeread things you think are bad,
read things you think are good.
(46:39):
Try not to have those judgementsabout books.
Um, you know, if they're beingpublished by a publisher.
Then the publisher thinksthere's something about them
that will engage readers.
So what is it about those thingsthat will engage readers and
read critically?
You know, like look at why doesthis book work for me?
Or why does it not work for me?
Because in understanding whatyou don't like to read, you
(47:00):
learn more about your own voiceas a writer and your own
personal interests, and you haveto bring.
What's particular to you, toyour own writing.
And if you don't know what thatis, then you can't bring it to
your writing.
So reading helps you to developthat sense.
Mm-hmm.
Um, it's a subconscious gutthing.
You couldn't probably sit downand notate it out, but the
(47:20):
reading helps with all of thosethings.
Madeleine Cleary (47:22):
Hmm, great advice I think, and um, why not
go and enjoy reading as well.
We are all, if we're writing, wegenerally like to be readers as
well, so go out and enjoy andread different things.
And I hope everybody reads theMademoiselle Alliance, which
will be coming out on the 26thof March.
Thank you so much, NatashaLester for joining us on the
book Deal podcast.
Natasha Lester (47:40):
Thank you.
We're so much fun chatting toyou.
Tina Strachan (47:47):
Thank you for listening to the book Deal
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new apps drop and to keep
up to date with what the pod isdoing.
You can also find us onInstagram.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.