Natasha Rai on persevering through setbacks, rewriting drafts, and securing her debut book deal.
In this episode of the Book Deal Podcast, hosts Tina Strachan and Madeleine Cleary dive into the story behind the story of debut author, Natasha Rai, and her book 'An Onslaught of Light,' published on 4 March 2025 by Pantera Press. The conversation reveals Natasha's eight-year path to publication, from early long-listings in the Richell Prize and the Kill Your Darlings Unpublished Manuscript Award, to eventual success with Pantera Press. Natasha discusses the inspiration behind her novel, which explores themes of cultural identity, family grief, and queerness. She also shares invaluable insights and tips for emerging writers, stressing the importance of community, resilience, and continual writing. Additionally, Natasha reflects on how her experience as a trauma counsellor influences her writing, and offers a glimpse into her future projects.
Our debut in the spotlight this week is Christine Newell, whose travel memoir Five Seasons in Seoul was released on 25 February 2025 with Affirm Press. Madeleine highly recommends it!
00:00 Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast
00:44 Introducing Natasha Rai and Her Debut Novel
04:10 The Inspiration Behind 'An Onslaught of Light'
05:14 Exploring Themes of Home and Identity
15:44 The Journey to Publication
21:38 Christine Newell's Memoir: Five Seasons in Seoul
23:05 Acknowledgements and Initial Struggles
23:39 The Importance of Taking Breaks
24:40 Finding the Right Editor
25:26 Publisher Introduction Day
27:57 Navigating Feedback and Revisions
34:09 The Role of Community
38:00 The Journey to Publication
40:31 Final Tips and Farewell
Join our Patreon community for less than the cost of a coffee per month and support the pod! Your contribution will go to directly paying our sound producer, Brogan, and to help us bring you the conversations with industry professionals you love.
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You can find out more about Tina, Madeleine and Natasha and follow their journeys here:
Tina Strachan (@td_strachan) • Instagram photos and videos
Tina Strachan children's book author
Madeleine Cleary (@madeleineclearywrites) • Instagram photos and videos
Madeleine Cleary | Author
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Natasha Rai | Author | Mentor
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Madeleine Cleary (00:09):
This is the Book Deal Podcast.
Where you will discover theinspiring stories of the authors
behind your favourite books.
No matter what stage of writingyou are at, we've got you
covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors.
One deal at a time.
(00:29):
The Book Deal Podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners of the land and waterswhich it's recorded on.
and pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging.
Hi, it's Madeleine here.
I was so thrilled to interviewmy good friend and fellow
podcaster, Natasha Rai.
You may know Natasha from theTakeover series here on the Book
(00:52):
Deal podcast, but we're alsocelebrating Natasha's debut
novel, An Onslaught of Light,which was released on the 4th of
March in 2025 with PanteraPress.
Natasha was born in India andmigrated to Australia with her
parents at the age of 10.
She lived in the UK for severalyears as an adult, and the
influence of Three Homesfeatures in her writing.
(01:15):
An Onslaught of Light was longlisted for the 2017 Richell
Prize and the 2018 KYDUnpublished Manuscript Award,
and was highly commended for the2022 Westwords Ultimo Prize.
Natasha slides in so many toptips into this episode.
So come as always with your penand paper ready.
As Natasha and I are friends,our conversation takes many
(01:38):
pathways and is full of goodhumor and light.
Natasha Rai, welcome to the bookdeal podcast.
Thank you, Madeleine.
Great to be here.
Oh, just so excited to have youon.
Um, we have been chatting for along time, actually.
We have, yes.
You were the first Debut 2025author to reach out to me after
(01:58):
I created the crew.
Natasha Rai (2) (02:00):
I was, I was so excited when I realized you'd
started this group.
So
Madeleine Cleary (02:04):
I was just so excited.
Someone reached out to me.
I was really worried.
I would start the crew and like,no one would know who I was.
And there'd be like this othercrew forming that I had no idea
about.
Oh, that's awful.
When you reached out, I waslike, yes, I've got a friend.
Natasha Rai (02:19):
And it's been, honestly, it's been invaluable.
So thank you.
Madeleine Cleary (02:23):
It's been amazing.
And your book is wonderful andincredible and invaluable and
everyone should read it.
Do you want to give us yourpitch first and then we can dive
into all the things?
Natasha Rai (02:36):
An Onslaught of Light, published on the 4th of
March.
Follows the story of ArchanaSharma, who is living her
perfect life, alone, isolated,solitary.
When she is forced into caringfor her father, she has to
reckon with a family griefthat's buried deep, her cultural
identity, and her queerness.
Madeleine Cleary (02:57):
I was just so struck by this book.
And I'm one of the very luckyones to have read an advanced
copy of it.
And, um, I think I was, I wasmessaging you constantly
throughout it.
Yes,
Natasha Rai (2) (03:08):
you were, which was a huge relief and also a
huge source of terror.
Madeleine Cleary (03:13):
I know because you're, you're someone Natasha,
who I've observed for the last18 months, and you're a very
naturally calm person.
Perhaps there's lots going onthe inside, but on the exterior,
you're very calm and considered.
But you did say to me, one ofyour, the things that you're
most anxious about is aboutpeople close to you reading it.
Why do you think that is?
Natasha Rai (2) (03:32):
Well, because you know, you, people know you a
certain way, especially friends,close friends, even colleagues.
And when they read, even thoughit's fiction, when they read
something that has somesimilarities to my life.
I think, I know that connectionswill be made, questions will be
asked, oh, how much of this isreal, how much is fiction, so I
(03:53):
think that's part of the worry.
Madeleine Cleary (03:56):
How much of it is real, Natasha?
Natasha Rai (2) (03:58):
Apart from a family who is Indian, who moves
to Australia.
That's it.
Everything else is fiction.
So do you
Madeleine Cleary (04:06):
want to talk a little bit then about the
inspiration behind the book?
Natasha Rai (2) (04:10):
Yes.
Um, actually it was interesting.
What inspired me is not my moveso much from India to Australia
because I was only 10 when wemoved here.
It was actually when I came backfrom the UK, I was living in the
UK for 11 years.
And I moved back to Australia in2016 and it was such a strange
(04:30):
experience for me because I wasreally noticing aspects of
Sydney, which was never my homeanyway, because I grew up in
Newcastle, but aspects of Sydneythat were familiar and yet not,
and really missing London andfeeling that.
Strange experience of this is myhome, but it's not really.
And my home is back there andI've left it and just sit
(04:53):
searching for how to make thisnow my home.
And this person was in my head.
Archana Sharma.
And that's how I started writingit because there were all these
scenes that just were there,like, she was just telling me
the story.
Isn't that amazing?
Yeah, so it was that search forwhat does home mean that I
started writing it.
(05:14):
Do you think that people canhave multiple homes as well?
Oh, for sure.
That's what I've realized now.
Mm hmm.
It is so much more than place,it's, it can be connection with
people, connection to placedefinitely, and it, home just
speaks to different parts ofyou, in my
opinion.
Madeleine Cleary (05:34):
So, when you spoke about Archana, who's one
of your three characters thatyou progressed through.
Um, you said that she spoke toyou and told you the story.
And I really got that sense thatyour voice, and this is the
thing that people often talkabout with books, the voice, and
it's quite hard thing todescribe because it's quite
(05:54):
different point of viewperspective.
The voice is something.
A little less tangible, I think.
For you, did you feel like, wasthat voice always, it sounded
like it was very clear to you,but is it something that you had
to work on?
Natasha Rai (2) (06:09):
Um, I should say yes.
But, because, look, I did, and Ididn't, because Archana
especially just came to me fullyformed.
It was the quality of anger andthat bristling harshness.
I am a rock.
No one will enter me.
No one will ever get past this.
(06:30):
I got that from Ajna.
Yeah, that just came to me sostrongly.
Um, and so I, that, I startedwriting that and then out of
that actually came, well, how dopeople around her deal with it?
Because
she is, if you can just get past that rock,
Part.
She is lovable.
She's just so deeply hurt.
(06:52):
And so who are these people whocould love her?
And then Indu came to me andIndu for me was, I was like, she
cannot be hard herself.
She has to be something else.
And then Vijay is like this,almost like this, uh, like
they're, if they are twostreams, Archana and Indu, Vijay
is this thing in the middle thatthey both kind of batter up
(07:13):
against in different ways.
And that's kind of how I wasthinking about voice.
Madeleine Cleary (07:18):
Some writers, the story comes first for them,
but, but for you, it sounds likein this novel, it's the
characters that really spoke toyou.
Clearly the story flowed around.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (2) (07:29):
The characters always come to me first.
Always for you.
And I've heard you talk to Tinaabout this, about character and
story and the idea of writing asynopsis before just.
Chills me to my very core.
Thank you,
Madeleine Cleary (07:43):
Tina.
You've got to listen to this.
Natasha Rai (2) (07:45):
Natasha and I are on the same page here.
Exactly.
So for me it was alwayscharacters, which is why I
floundered at the beginningbecause it was a bunch of scenes
where something was happening tothese characters or they were
doing something and that wasAfter that, the story started to
emerge.
Madeleine Cleary (08:04):
I think there is so much that we can learn
about this story as well.
And the multiple timelines,there's a, um, you know, a
modern day and a, and a onethat's set in the, it's not
historical fiction, I would say.
It's hard to call
Natasha Rai (2) (08:18):
the 80s and 90s historical.
They were 30, 40 years ago.
Oh, my gosh.
Technically.
Um,
Madeleine Cleary (08:27):
I, so I think there's so much to learn in, in,
you know, looking and reflectingback in the past and in the
current day.
Um, and what I took from thisnovel is that, you know, all of
us have this light and dark inus across our lives.
Um, uh, could you talk maybe alittle bit about About that, and
I'm guessing this is one of thereasons for the title and
(08:50):
onslaught of light.
If we, we have to allow thatlight to come in to be able to
shine upon, but we need the darkas well in order to, to expose
the light.
Natasha Rai (2) (09:00):
Yeah.
And I guess for this, this kindof.
Thinking about dark and light, Iwas really coming at it from a
trauma lens.
Um, because trauma robs us oflight.
Trauma takes away our ability toconnect with others and to
ourselves.
And it really leaves a lot ofpeople in survival mode, where
(09:21):
you know how to go to work, youknow how to look after yourself,
and you miss out on the joy of alot of things, because
everything is geared intocertainty.
And uncertainty lies.
Darkness sometimes, because ifyou're certain about everything,
you can't let curiosityflourish.
You can't allow yourself to tryand not do something because the
trying and doing is too hard.
(09:43):
So I was interested in thedarkness also brings silence.
You can't talk about things, youcan't reach out.
And so the, the, the image thatI had in my mind was this dark
chamber that she's in, Archana,Vijay, and Indu, and like, at
times, somebody or somethingmakes a little chink in your
(10:04):
chamber, and there's this littlebeautiful stream of light that
comes in, and it's about thebravery of going, I'm now
curious about what that lightcomes from, and how does it come
in, and so that was kind ofwhere I was thinking about how
this chamber around her gets Uh,in some ways smashed up by
others
Madeleine Cleary (10:23):
and in
Natasha Rai (2) (10:23):
other ways, she pushes out into that.
Madeleine Cleary (10:26):
Oh, that gave me shivers the way that you
described that.
And throughout the book, thereis, you know, a lot of darkness
in the book, but there are thesemoments that you insert perhaps
deliberately, which are thatthose joyful moments.
And I just, yeah.
Because
Natasha Rai (2) (10:43):
that's the thing, even with trauma, there's
always possibility, there'salways possibility, no matter
how desperate it feels, nomatter how awful it feels, if
you are able to let it in, youcan find it always, but it's
It's about knowing or trustingyourself because everyone has
(11:04):
it.
Madeleine Cleary (11:05):
And your, your work, um, as you're a trauma
counsellor.
Natasha Rai (2) (11:09):
Yes.
Madeleine Cleary (11:10):
Has that informed this view, do you
think?
Natasha Rai (2) (11:14):
Uh, definitely, uh, because I'm constantly
amazed at people's resilienceand that word is used so much
now.
It is.
I'm constantly amazed at ourhuman capacity to recover and
heal.
It is truly amazing.
And I get to do this work that Iget to witness that.
So, and I think it's that it'sthis, because so much of, you
(11:35):
know, when you go online, socialmedia, et cetera, so much of it
is feel sometimes hopeless interms of once you're here, it's
really difficult.
But there is always apossibility, which is what I get
drawn to, the possibility.
Madeleine Cleary (11:50):
There's a lot of irony in the book, I sensed
as well.
And I like the way that youinserted it.
It wasn't in your face, um, butit was a really subtle way of
doing things.
And, and almost a little, yeah,that you, so you got that sort
of humorous side where you couldreflect on your own views and
biases and experiences.
And one of the scenes thatstruck me was when Indhu was at
(12:13):
the government.
Office.
Yes.
And she was behind.
She was talking to a womanworking behind the counter in
fluent English because in Indiapeople speak fluent English and
the woman said, well, we can'tdo this for you unless you
undertake in migrant Englishcourses and Indu said, but we
(12:36):
are having a conversation rightnow in English.
Why do I have to do thesecourses?
And the woman was just like, youjust have to do it.
Yes.
Natasha Rai (2) (12:43):
Yes.
Madeleine Cleary (12:44):
This is, you know, this is something I think
that comes up in migrant inliterature about the migrant
experience.
It's something that is soimportant for all Australians to
engage in, um, and to check ourown biases as well.
Do
you think that, um, we're doing enough?
(13:04):
to promote them in the industry?
Do you, have you felt a shift, Isuppose, in terms of the voices,
the new voices that areemerging?
Natasha Rai (2) (13:12):
I think there's definitely a shift because, you
know, that scene came out of,um, the policy at the time.
So in 1990, when we came, thepolicy was assimilation.
Like, you know, everyone shouldassimilate and be the same and
homogenous.
So those types of, that waspolicy driven.
So it doesn't take any Uh,what's the word, any account of
(13:32):
the person standing in front ofyou with their own history, et
cetera.
Computer says no.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
But I think now things havedefinitely changed.
Like you can, you know, um, SPS,for example, you can watch
multiple programs in differentlanguages.
Um, there's access forcommunities, even community all
around.
And I'm being very specific.
(13:53):
With Sydney now, because this iswhere I live, but you can just
do this beautiful pockets ofcommunity all over the place.
And in publishing, we've got somuch.
It's not there yet to say itisn't there yet, but there are
so many new voices, um,Aboriginal, Sri Lankan, Lebanese
there, you know, from, fromparts of Africa, there is, there
(14:16):
is definitely a move towards it.
In my view, it's not fastenough, it's never fast enough
because even our literaturedoesn't fully yet reflect what's
happening in the real world,like in terms of who lives here
in this country, but we'regetting there and it is much,
much better.
Madeleine Cleary (14:35):
And you know, especially given what's going on
in Australia at the moment.
with everything about socialcohesion and the importance of
social cohesion as well.
I think having literature as away to connect and your book is
all about finding connection.
Yeah, I think it's reallyimportant that us as an industry
go and promote those things too.
And
Natasha Rai (2) (14:54):
I think it's important to say that there is
so much room for everyone.
It's not about if we start toamplify this voice or that
voice, somebody else will missout.
Actually, the more you amplify,the more room you create.
So.
I think sometimes there might bea fear that, you know, we can't
have too much of this or toomuch of that, but it just shows
(15:16):
when you do it and, you know,books sell well, or it does well
in a certain way.
There are people wanting it.
There are readers hungry for it.
Madeleine Cleary (15:24):
Exactly, exactly.
It's exciting.
I think the future is reallyexciting.
Natasha Rai (2) (15:28):
Yeah, I agree.
Madeleine Cleary (15:29):
And, um, I'm excited as well in, you know,
five years when we'll be havinga further conversation after
your stellar prize winning booksand miles Franklin award.
Natasha Rai (2) (15:41):
Don't know about that, but thank you.
Madeleine Cleary (15:44):
Okay.
So let's talk about, because weare obviously on the book deal
podcast.
We're all interested in bookdeals and how you got your deal.
And.
We, I'm going to admit, have hada chat before about your journey
to publication, which is a veryinteresting one.
And this, not only I thoughtyour book was amazing, but I
wanted to get you on, cause Ithink you've got a lot, a lot of
(16:06):
advice for emerging writers.
So let's talk about yourjourney.
So when did you first start?
Writing an Onslaught of Lime.
Natasha Rai (2) (16:17):
So I started writing it in 2017, the year
after I came back from the UK.
And I enrolled, um, in a courseat the, at Writing New South
Wales called The Year of theNovel.
It is still running.
So anyone out there who'sthinking about writing a novel
and has some random scenes oreven a line, enroll.
It is the best thing I ever did.
(16:39):
Um, at the time, Emily Maguire,the excellent Emily Maguire was
teaching the course.
And It was just so helpful.
So over the course of that year,I wrote a draft, I like to call
it zero draft.
I've heard it being called avomit draft before, but it's not
all, you know, putrid.
So I like to call it a zerodraft.
(16:59):
Um, and, um, what gave me thebiggest boost was that year, um,
it was long listed for theRitchell prize,
Madeleine Cleary (17:05):
which is amazing.
So do you want to tell the.
Uh, listeners a little bit aboutRichell Prize because it's an
amazing
Natasha Rai (2) (17:11):
prize.
It is an amazing prize.
The Richell Prize is, um, aprize for unpublished writers
and you submit, I think it'sthree chapters, a synopsis and a
chapter breakdown.
So basically what happens therest of the story, and I think a
statement about what the prizewinning means to you.
You win a mentorship withHachette, um, money that goes to
(17:35):
an advance if you do getpublished.
And the best thing about theprize is you don't have to have
a full length novel ready.
So good.
And it's for unpublished forunpublished writers only.
So it is such an incredibleopportunity and it's worth doing
it.
It's so worth doing it.
What was it like when you gotlonglisted?
(17:56):
It was so amazing because Ididn't even know I was.
Somebody, somebody who I knew,another writer whose group, like
writing group I was in, Um,message me going, Oh my God,
congratulations.
I'm like, what for?
And he's like, you've been longlisted.
I'm like, yeah, and I fully wentonline expecting it to be a typo
or seeing someone else's nameand him have to have misread it.
(18:20):
And there it was.
And at the time I think I wascalling it light and shadow or
light.
Dark corners or something andthere it was and I was like, Oh
my God.
And I emailed Emily cause wewere still doing the course.
And she was like, can I announcethis to the group?
And I'm like, Oh God.
Okay.
But she, you know, I couldcertainly understand why she did
(18:41):
it.
She did it as a way to say, see.
Yes.
Anyone, everyone should, youknow, you should not feel
scared, do it because this iswhat could happen.
Madeleine Cleary (18:50):
And those initial moment, like that, that
first moment when you're writingis validated is it's just so
good, isn't it?
That's powerful because it'sother people might actually like
Natasha Rai (2) (19:01):
somebody else who's an expert is saying, or
maybe not.
Yes.
As an expert, somebody who'sdoes this for a living is
saying.
Your words are worth reading.
Yes.
Your words are worth sharing.
Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary (19:15):
Okay.
So your long list of this is in2017?
Yes.
17, 20 17.
Yep.
What happens then?
Natasha Rai (2) (19:23):
So then I didn't get on the short list,
which is fine.
The long list was enough to likekeep me going for like a good
year after that, Um, so Ifinished my novel.
I got an agent at the timemm-hmm And at the time the novel
was really, really differentstructure and so she, so you're
on a great
Madeleine Cleary (19:36):
path then
Natasha Rai (2) (19:37):
Natasha, because you, you've been
Madeleine Cleary (19:39):
long listed in the retail prize.
And then you get an agent.
Amazing.
Okay.
So you're basically like, thisbook's going to be out next year
and I'm going to That's what
Natasha Rai (2) (19:46):
I genuinely thought.
So then she submitted toeverybody, like all the major
publishers and some of thesmaller ones.
And the feedback I got wasincredibly depressing because it
wasn't anything I could use.
So for example, we don't knowwhere to place this.
Um, this sits in theuncomfortable, uh, space between
literary fiction andcontemporary fiction.
(20:06):
I don't know what that means.
What does that mean?
I don't know.
I still don't know.
Um, and then somebody, somebodyelse said, a publisher who I
won't name, um, the messages ofracism are a bit too much.
So, I'm like, okay, I don't knowwhat to do about that.
Um, so, it's fine.
It's fine.
Wow.
Wow.
Yeah.
(20:27):
Yeah.
And then, so after that, my, um,agent and I did part ways,
because she was like, I thinkwe've come to the end of the
line with this.
I don't know what else to do.
Madeleine Cleary (20:35):
Oh, Natasha, that would have been really
difficult.
Natasha Rai (2) (20:38):
It was, um, but luckily, because some of the
excellent advice that I got frommy Year of the Novel course, I
had started writing otherthings.
Is that going to be like a
Madeleine Cleary (20:47):
top tip?
Have something else going on?
Natasha Rai (2) (20:49):
Yes, I'm going to do the top tip right now
because I've actually got morethan one.
Keep writing.
Do not focus too much on the onething because you'll go mad.
Just keep writing.
Um, and so I just kept writingand I kept working on Onslaught
every now and then I'd come inand do something.
And then in 2018, it was longlisted.
The KYD Kill Your DarlingsUnpublished Manuscript Award.
(21:12):
I don't know if that award stillis still going.
Um, but it was again forunpublished writers and you had
to submit your entiremanuscript.
And I was blown away when I waslonglisted.
Huge.
Huge, a huge deal.
Madeleine Cleary (21:29):
So you've been, you've shortlisted for two
major unpublished manuscriptawards.
Yeah.
So you're, you've got something.
Yeah.
There was something there.
Christine Newell (2) (21:38):
Hi everyone.
I'm Christine Newell, a memberof the 2025 Debut Crew and
author of Five Seasons in Seoul,which was released on the 25th
of February through AffirmPress.
Five Seasons in Seoul is amemoir about my experience
living and performing in SouthKorea.
My father's death after aprolonged illness left me
(22:00):
suffering with debilitatinganxiety and depression, and I
was at a low point in my musicaltheatre career, dressing up as a
dinosaur to pay the bills.
So, when a role with anexperimental theatre company
based in South Korea came upunexpectedly, it seemed like the
perfect escape from my problems.
But, I soon discovered, there'sno running away from yourself.
(22:24):
The book follows my journey fromthe southeastern suburbs of
Melbourne to the affluentdistrict of Gangnam in Seoul,
where I faced a lot ofunexpected challenges while
adjusting to my new job andhome.
It's an exploration of Koreanlife.
The food, landscape and culture,as well as a deeply personal
story of travel and the ways itcan transform us.
(22:46):
Five Seasons in Seoul is out nowin all good bookstores.
I celebrated my book launch atthe beginning of this month, and
I've been overwhelmed by thefeedback from some early readers
who've told me that they relatedto my memoir on a very personal
level.
That's one of the reasons Iwrote it, and I'm looking
forward to connecting with morereaders in the next few months.
Thanks for listening and a hugethank you to Madeleine and Tina
(23:09):
for providing an opportunity forthe Debut crew to share their
books with you all.
Natasha Rai (2) (23:14):
Anyway and then after that I wasn't shortlisted
and then I kind of submitted toa few other competitions again
and uh, I left it.
I just left it.
And then in 2020, I decided todo a rewrite because I was like,
you know what I'm, I'm not donewith it.
I'm not done with it.
Were you tempted to
Madeleine Cleary (23:29):
put it down?
Was there, there must have beenthat temptation.
Cause after going through all ofthis, getting to the end of it
and yeah.
Well, I'm
Natasha Rai (2) (23:37):
just going
Madeleine Cleary (23:38):
to slide another tip
Natasha Rai (2) (23:39):
in when you, when you can't see your
manuscript anymore, when youcannot figure out what isn't
working, cause you know, itisn't working.
Cause that's the feedback you'regetting.
Put it away.
There's
no urgency.
There was no rush.
Nothing will happen.
Just put it away for as long asyou can handle it.
I would say six months if youcan handle being away from it,
(24:01):
because it really was arevelation because I left it
alone for a year.
When I went back to it, I wasjust like, whoa, there is so
much I can do with this now.
Madeleine Cleary (24:11):
Amazing.
Having that insight so much,it's almost like a, you're
having that helicopterperspective, the novel.
Yeah.
Whereas when you are writing itand you are editing it every
day, you're in in it.
Yes.
In
Natasha Rai (2) (24:21):
that world.
Yes.
And I think it also, what itfelt like coming back to it, was
it, it, yes, it was my work, butthere was also, I didn't
remember writing some of it.
Mm.
But parts of it, I was like, oh.
I don't remember writing that.
So it really helps you have adistance and gets you thinking
about it in a different way.
Um, so yeah, 2020, 2020, and Imet the most amazing editor in
(24:46):
the on the planet.
Sorry, all the other editors,um, Alison Fraser, who I was,
she was recommended to me by agood friend who won a mentorship
with her.
And Ali basically.
Reddit.
So this was my next big boost.
She read it.
And on our first zoom chat, shejust said to me in the most
matter of fact tone.
She wasn't trying to suck up.
(25:08):
She wasn't being judgmental.
She just went, Oh yeah, thiswill get published.
She just said it in this way.
And I'm like, really?
She goes, Oh yeah, it does needsome work, but it will
definitely get picked up.
Madeleine Cleary (25:18):
Oh,
Natasha Rai (2) (25:18):
I've just got shivers.
I know.
And I was just like, Oh my God.
Oh my God.
Anyway.
And so we worked on thattogether.
And then, um, there was apublisher introduction day, I
think it's called.
So Writing NSW still hoststhese.
So for all the baby writers outthere and unpublished writers
who are like, maybe should I doit?
(25:39):
So what it is, it's a day wherethe publisher comes into the
center and they really put a lotof resources into it.
As in.
They, they come in the editors,publishers, marketing team, and
they run through what happenswhen you submit to them
and
they tell you what they have to do, how they
have to think about it.
So someone from their sales teamcomes, the acquisitions team
(26:01):
comes, and the best part is youget to submit an excerpt of your
work and you get one on onetime.
No, with a, uh, with a member ofthe team.
Madeleine Cleary (26:11):
Oh, that is invaluable.
That is amazing.
It's invaluable.
You get all the information andthen Yeah, exactly.
Natasha Rai (2) (26:17):
Amazing.
So you submit beforehand.
So I, it was Pantera and I hadmy eye Panera for a while
because they publish sucheclectic.
unique books.
And I really loved their, theywere almost not aggressive, but
they're almost hungry for newvoices, Australian stories.
And I'm like, this sounds like anice fit.
(26:38):
So I submitted my excerpt and Imet with the excellent Kate
Cuthbert, who was an editor atPantera, sadly not there
anymore.
And we had a seven minute chatand I actually submitted
something else.
It wasn't even onslaught.
And she said, I love this.
Can I see the rest of it?
And I panicked and went, no,because it's not ready.
(26:59):
And she said, well, in your bio,you mentioned onslaught what's
happening with that.
And at the time it was in acompetition and being as I am a
stickler for the rules.
I said, I'm not allowed to showit to you.
And she's like, show it to meimmediately.
I'm like, okay.
Um, so that was the Friday andon Tuesday she, uh, rang me and
(27:20):
said.
I love Onslaught.
I want to take her toAcquisitions.
I'm like, what?
Um, So she, she came back to youin three days.
Yep.
She was like, I read it allweekend.
Oh my God.
Oh my God.
Um, okay.
So after that, things moved veryfast.
I went to Acquisitions and thenat Acquisitions, I was told.
(27:41):
It's not a no, but it's not ayes.
Madeleine Cleary (27:47):
It's like, you know, you get these highs and
then it just like comes down.
It's the roller coaster.
Natasha Rai (2) (27:51):
So you just got to like weather, weather it out.
And then, um, and then I washighly commended in the other
competition.
Oh my gosh.
Yes, I was just like, Oh my God,what do I do?
And even the highly commended, Ialways find this stuff out in
the weirdest ways.
No one called me, no one emailedme.
I was happy to be scrolling onInstagram and saw the
announcement from thecompetition going, and we have a
(28:12):
highly commended Natasha Rai.
I'm like, what?
And at that point I had, causeI've always been quite.
And not anxious, nervous aboutapproaching publishers because
they just seem like, you know,God's so not this time.
I was like, you know what, stuffit.
I'm just going to be reallybrave.
So I emailed the publisher and Iwent, hi, I've been highly
commended for your prize.
(28:33):
Can we have a chat?
And so we had a chat and shegave me feedback.
And at the same time, Panteragave me feedback.
And the two feedbacks.
Yeah.
We're totally different.
Oh my gosh.
One publisher wanted me to stripout to one point of view and the
other publisher wanted me tobeef up the points of view.
Madeleine Cleary (28:53):
Having read Onslaught, losing those points
of view would have been souldestroying for the book.
Natasha Rai (2) (29:00):
So I did go insane for a day because I
thought I'm going to do both.
I'm going to write a novel.
How?
How?
I know that's what I mean.
I went insane for a day.
And then I spoke to Ali, myeditor who worked with me, and I
spoke to a few other writers,including Emily, who all went,
calm your farm, look at thefeedback.
What do you want out of thisbook?
(29:21):
How would you feel if your bookwas out in the world with one or
both, with one of those?
Structures.
And I'm like, I know thestructure I want,
and
I knew I understood the publisher that
had said, can we just have onefeedback I understood is another
top tip.
I'm going to slip it in now whenyou get feedback and it doesn't
(29:41):
make sense to you panic, takethe time to freak out, then go
back and look at what it isthey're trying to fix because
the feedback itself may not makesense to you.
But look at the theme or what itis that might be missing.
So I realized what was missingwas not that it did at one point
of view was that the story wasreally unbalanced and.
(30:04):
It needed more from the othercharacters.
So I'm like, I know how to fixthat.
So then I took, I think, fourmonths, five months to do that.
I sent it back to both.
And I said to the publisher thatwanted one, I'm like, I didn't
do what you asked me, but here'sthe problem.
I think you've asked me to fix,which I think I've now done.
Madeleine Cleary (30:22):
And on your points of view, I just found.
It's amazing the way you wereable to keep the story going,
because sometimes the story canget bogged down in multiple
points of view and especiallyyou were going across two
timelines as well, but it was soseamless and I thought very
equitable in the way that youdid it.
(30:42):
You really got the insight.
So clearly you'd put a lot ofattention into this.
Natasha Rai (2) (30:47):
Yes, I did.
Cause I knew it, cause then itbecame very clear to me on that.
Now I understand.
And Ali, of course, helped mefigure out how do you beef up or
how do you add to the otherpoints of view without exactly
what you said, without itdragging and getting bogged
down.
And so I went back to both, onepublisher passed and Pantera,
yeah, and Pantera was the onewho said yes.
(31:09):
And then I was in the UK at thetime visiting family and they'd
gone to acquisitions and then itwas all quiet.
And I was like, don't, don'thound Kate, just leave it.
But what I did know was the nois very fast, but the no had not
come.
So I'm like.
Oh my God.
It means they're deliberating,which means there's a chance.
Oh my God.
(31:30):
And on the 10th of May, 2023,I've got an, it was in the
morning.
I was staying at my friend'shouse in London.
I was in my pajamas.
And
Madeleine Cleary (31:37):
I love that you know, the date.
I
Natasha Rai (2) (31:41):
woke up in the morning.
There was an email from Kategoing, can we have a chat next
week?
And I'm like, Nope, I'm gettingon a plane back to Australia,
which means I cannot talk to youtill whatever day next week.
And I will not wait.
She's like, let's get on a zoomnow.
And I'm like, My hair, I mean,my pajamas, just I don't care.
And so we got on zoom and shesaid, we would love to publish
(32:01):
you.
And I just screamed andscreamed.
And all I could think of was I'malone in my friend's house and
there's no one here to witnessthis moment.
It was the best moment, notever, but very close.
Madeleine Cleary (32:13):
So this is a journey that's taken six years
from the day that you finishedon sort, uh, until getting the
book deal, which is anincredible feat.
And obviously, you know, you'vegone through that rollercoaster,
what, what was helpful for youto continue persisting with,
(32:33):
with onslaught?
Like, was there something thatreally helped you?
Natasha Rai (2) (32:38):
There were two things, I think, looking back,
one was my own.
Um, feeling that it was, it wasworth telling because I know, I
know that lots of writers whentheir debut novels come out, say
this was not the first novel Iwrote.
Um, and I, so I was aware ofthat, but I just had this
feeling it had to be told it wasrelevant.
(32:58):
It was an Australian story, anAustralian story that we don't
always get to hear.
And the other thing, the otherthing that kept me going was
these moments of light, thesecompetitions, this feedback that
was saying, There is somethingworth telling here.
It's just not ready yet.
So I think those two things justhelped keep pushing.
Madeleine Cleary (33:21):
So you signed in May, 2023.
It's now March 2025,
Natasha Rai (2) (33:27):
almost two years.
I know.
And she said, when I said, Oh,when, when are you thinking?
She goes March, 2025.
My heart did sink a little bit.
I have to admit, I was like, Oh,okay.
And then I thought, who cares?
I've come this far.
Like what's another year and ahalf.
Madeleine Cleary (33:42):
And have you, has the time been worthwhile,
Natasha Rai (2) (33:45):
do you feel?
Oh, for sure.
Because I've learned now so muchmore about editing than I
learned from all the editorsI've worked with across, across
that time.
And I've been working on otherstuff as well.
So I just, I feel like I'm, I'vegot a good, Way of doing that,
where I can just put thingsaside and say, I cannot worry
about that.
I cannot do anything more aboutthat.
(34:06):
Let me focus on this.
And that helps me go.
And of course, our debut crewhaving this amazing community
has all been amazing.
Madeleine Cleary (34:15):
And I feel Natasha, your story throughout
this journey of yours thatyou've gone down to your pathway
to publication.
The thing that stands out for meis the community for you and the
connection.
That's been a really big.
support for you.
And I think it's a testament toyou that you go out there and
make connections.
There's a reason why you werethe second person to reach or
(34:38):
first person to reach out to me,number two member of the debut
crew.
And the way that you had talkedabout your story, like you, you
signed up to the courses theyear in the novel with Emily
McGuire, Emily, and you are nowvery good friends.
As a result of that, you keepmaintaining these connections.
You met that wonderful editorwho helped you along the way.
Like all these people have.
Come, and Kate, obviously yourchampion.
Natasha Rai (2) (35:00):
Yes.
She's in Pantera.
Madeleine Cleary (35:02):
Yes.
So do you wanna talk a littlebit about the community and how
important that is?
Natasha Rai (2) (35:06):
For sure.
And this is one of my other toptips and I'm just sliding all
into your episode.
um, community is the thingbecause writing is obviously a
solitary, um, exercise activity,but what it does listening to
other writers talk about thewriters is there is a thrill, a
(35:26):
connection that feels so deepwhen somebody else.
It's like, it's so true, isn'tit?
When you have somebody going, Ohmy God, I totally understand it.
You know, that timeline isn'tworking.
Like, have you thought about,and you're having a discussion,
(35:47):
a very serious discussion aboutsomething that is completely
made up.
There is nothing like it in theworld.
It is the most special thingever.
And so when you have thatconnection of people or people
in your life that are willing todo that with you and you do that
for them, and then of course itdeepens, you read each other's
work, you give feedback and youstart to get a sense of
(36:08):
somebody's style, somebody'shabits, especially writing, I
mean, and it just feels like aconnection, like no other.
And there'll be lots of falsestarts along the way, like, as a
quick aside, years ago, I wastrying to find my community in
terms of swapping work to givefeedback.
And I found somebody online andwe swapped our work.
(36:30):
And two days before we hadagreed the deadline to give the
feedback, she said, I'm sosorry.
I can't reach a manuscript.
It's too triggering.
And it was another manuscript.
It wasn't even on sort.
And I had taken the time,obviously to read her
manuscript, to write detailednotes, to do all of it.
And I was so crushed.
Um, by
that.
So it is a little bit likedating for the single writers
(36:52):
out there where you can meetpeople and it's not a good fit,
but persevere, persevere,persevere.
Madeleine Cleary (36:58):
Emily McGuire once said to me when I met her
for the first time in a, anevent in Melbourne, we were
talking about you, Natasha.
Oh God.
Okay.
She said, you are a beautifulwriter, but you're also an
excellent reader.
And you've read a lot of herearly work.
She said you are an incredibleobserver and great reader.
(37:19):
Reading I think is another toptip, isn't it?
When it comes to writing.
Natasha Rai (2) (37:23):
I have met writers who are like, I don't
read.
I'm like, what?
How can you possibly writeanything?
Oh yeah.
I read, I read, I read.
I mean, I think one of mybiggest flaws with reading is I
do tend to only read in my, inGenre, which is literary
fiction.
So I am trying to widen andbroaden that.
Um, but I love reading, likereading for me is like
(37:44):
breathing.
You know, when people say, Ohno, I've got to make time for
it.
And I'm like, it's like sayingI'm going to make time to live.
Like what?
Um, yeah, I don't leave thehouse without a book in my bag
or an audio book.
If I don't carry a bag, likeit's impossible.
Madeleine Cleary (37:56):
Yes.
I totally understand.
Okay.
So your book's coming out in theworld after so many years.
What are you most excited about?
Natasha Rai (2) (38:07):
I'm really excited about sharing the story.
Um, with people, I'm excitedabout the idea that somebody
might pick it up and say, Oh myGod, that resonates with me, or
that resonates with parts of myexperience.
And there is hope that there isa way to change.
And just also just readingsomething that's really
(38:28):
different.
Australian stories, especiallygrowing up, were either set in
the bush or parts of citiesthat, and lives that had nothing
to do with mine, that I reallywanted because I thought that
was what was the right thing forme to want.
Um, so.
Yeah, I think those things arewhat I'm most excited about.
Madeleine Cleary (38:47):
Oh, I am so excited to come out into the
world and to tell everyone abouthow amazing it is.
I just couldn't believe it's adebut.
It's been through a lot of work.
Natasha Rai (2) (38:57):
It has, it really has.
Madeleine Cleary (39:00):
And what are you writing next as well?
I'm sure this will be a commonquestion in all your interviews.
What is it that you're workingon now, Natasha?
Natasha Rai (2) (39:08):
So, uh, because I'm me and I don't make life
easy for myself, I'm working ontwo things actually.
You're like Tina then.
Oh yes, I guess so.
Um, yeah.
So one is something, amanuscript I've been working on
for about four years, maybe evenlonger.
Um, it's set across threetimelines.
I think I have a thing fortimelines, Madeleine.
(39:29):
You do.
You do.
You do it well though.
So continue.
Um, and I'm just struggling withone of the timelines, which is
why it's taken me so long.
And the other one is more, um,of a single timeline, single
point of view.
It's a meditation on grief.
So
I keep going back and forth because I feel
differently about differentthings at certain times, but
(39:49):
that's what I'm working on.
Madeleine Cleary (39:51):
I forgot to ask you as well.
What, what was the inspirationbehind the title?
Natasha Rai (2) (39:56):
Ah, yes.
So, um, I'm terrible at titles.
Um, so I usually don't have anytitles for anything.
Um, I think it was calledUntitled by Natasha Rack?
Well, it was called Arch, Ithink, for ages, just as a file
name.
And it was, I was writing, I waswriting a scene one day, and I
just wrote without meaning to, Ijust wrote something about the
sun coming out from behind theclouds, and she was hit by an
(40:18):
onslaught of light.
And I'm like, whoa, that soundsgood.
I know the scene.
Madeleine Cleary (40:24):
It was in the Blue Mountains.
Natasha Rai (2) (40:25):
Yes, that's right.
And I'm like, that's it.
That's the title.
So that's how it came about.
Madeleine Cleary (40:30):
Love it.
Okay, so you have given us somany top tips already.
Do you have a final top tip,Natasha?
Natasha Rai (2) (40:39):
Keep going.
You just have to keep going.
If you really want to betraditionally published, you
have to persevere.
Take the time you need when youget disappointed.
Take the time, take a day, takea week, take a month, whatever
you need, and allow that to comein, because you know some
people, I think sometimes youthink, well you have to keep
going, which means you can'tacknowledge those feelings, you
(41:00):
totally should, becausedisappointment is real, it's
crushing, but don't let it bowyou out, and don't let it break
you down, just use it as a wayto say, well you know what, it's
No, I still have something tosay, and I'm going to keep
going.
Madeleine Cleary (41:15):
I want to write down all your advice,
Natasha, and just put it on wallon my walls in my office.
Like, I feel like you're, youhave some great quotes to put
around.
I could listen to you talk fordays.
Natasha Rai (2) (41:29):
Well, it's been a real pleasure to be on here
and talking to you like this.
I've really loved it.
Madeleine Cleary (41:34):
I have loved it as well.
So thank you for joining us,Natasha.
Thank you, Madeleine.
Good
Natasha Rai (2) (41:37):
luck.
Tina Strachan (2) (41:39):
Thanks.
Thank you for listening to thebook deal podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new apps drop and to keep
up to date with what the pod isdoing.
You can also find us onInstagram.
This is the Book Deal Podcast.
Where you will discover theinspiring stories of the authors
behind your favourite books.
No matter what stage of writingyou are at, we've got you
covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors.
One deal at a time.
(00:29):
The Book Deal Podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners of the land and waterswhich it's recorded on.
and pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging.
Hi, it's Madeleine here.
I was so thrilled to interviewmy good friend and fellow
podcaster, Natasha Rai.
You may know Natasha from theTakeover series here on the Book
(00:52):
Deal podcast, but we're alsocelebrating Natasha's debut
novel, An Onslaught of Light,which was released on the 4th of
March in 2025 with PanteraPress.
Natasha was born in India andmigrated to Australia with her
parents at the age of 10.
She lived in the UK for severalyears as an adult, and the
influence of Three Homesfeatures in her writing.
(01:15):
An Onslaught of Light was longlisted for the 2017 Richell
Prize and the 2018 KYDUnpublished Manuscript Award,
and was highly commended for the2022 Westwords Ultimo Prize.
Natasha slides in so many toptips into this episode.
So come as always with your penand paper ready.
As Natasha and I are friends,our conversation takes many
(01:38):
pathways and is full of goodhumor and light.
Natasha Rai, welcome to the bookdeal podcast.
Thank you, Madeleine.
Great to be here.
Oh, just so excited to have youon.
Um, we have been chatting for along time, actually.
We have, yes.
You were the first Debut 2025author to reach out to me after
(01:58):
I created the crew.
Natasha Rai (2) (02:00):
I was, I was so excited when I realized you'd
started this group.
So
Madeleine Cleary (02:04):
I was just so excited.
Someone reached out to me.
I was really worried.
I would start the crew and like,no one would know who I was.
And there'd be like this othercrew forming that I had no idea
about.
Oh, that's awful.
When you reached out, I waslike, yes, I've got a friend.
Natasha Rai (02:19):
And it's been, honestly, it's been invaluable.
So thank you.
Madeleine Cleary (02:23):
It's been amazing.
And your book is wonderful andincredible and invaluable and
everyone should read it.
Do you want to give us yourpitch first and then we can dive
into all the things?
Natasha Rai (02:36):
An Onslaught of Light, published on the 4th of
March.
Follows the story of ArchanaSharma, who is living her
perfect life, alone, isolated,solitary.
When she is forced into caringfor her father, she has to
reckon with a family griefthat's buried deep, her cultural
identity, and her queerness.
Madeleine Cleary (02:57):
I was just so struck by this book.
And I'm one of the very luckyones to have read an advanced
copy of it.
And, um, I think I was, I wasmessaging you constantly
throughout it.
Yes,
Natasha Rai (2) (03:08):
you were, which was a huge relief and also a
huge source of terror.
Madeleine Cleary (03:13):
I know because you're, you're someone Natasha,
who I've observed for the last18 months, and you're a very
naturally calm person.
Perhaps there's lots going onthe inside, but on the exterior,
you're very calm and considered.
But you did say to me, one ofyour, the things that you're
most anxious about is aboutpeople close to you reading it.
Why do you think that is?
Natasha Rai (2) (03:32):
Well, because you know, you, people know you a
certain way, especially friends,close friends, even colleagues.
And when they read, even thoughit's fiction, when they read
something that has somesimilarities to my life.
I think, I know that connectionswill be made, questions will be
asked, oh, how much of this isreal, how much is fiction, so I
(03:53):
think that's part of the worry.
Madeleine Cleary (03:56):
How much of it is real, Natasha?
Natasha Rai (2) (03:58):
Apart from a family who is Indian, who moves
to Australia.
That's it.
Everything else is fiction.
So do you
Madeleine Cleary (04:06):
want to talk a little bit then about the
inspiration behind the book?
Natasha Rai (2) (04:10):
Yes.
Um, actually it was interesting.
What inspired me is not my moveso much from India to Australia
because I was only 10 when wemoved here.
It was actually when I came backfrom the UK, I was living in the
UK for 11 years.
And I moved back to Australia in2016 and it was such a strange
(04:30):
experience for me because I wasreally noticing aspects of
Sydney, which was never my homeanyway, because I grew up in
Newcastle, but aspects of Sydneythat were familiar and yet not,
and really missing London andfeeling that.
Strange experience of this is myhome, but it's not really.
And my home is back there andI've left it and just sit
(04:53):
searching for how to make thisnow my home.
And this person was in my head.
Archana Sharma.
And that's how I started writingit because there were all these
scenes that just were there,like, she was just telling me
the story.
Isn't that amazing?
Yeah, so it was that search forwhat does home mean that I
started writing it.
(05:14):
Do you think that people canhave multiple homes as well?
Oh, for sure.
That's what I've realized now.
Mm hmm.
It is so much more than place,it's, it can be connection with
people, connection to placedefinitely, and it, home just
speaks to different parts ofyou, in my
opinion.
Madeleine Cleary (05:34):
So, when you spoke about Archana, who's one
of your three characters thatyou progressed through.
Um, you said that she spoke toyou and told you the story.
And I really got that sense thatyour voice, and this is the
thing that people often talkabout with books, the voice, and
it's quite hard thing todescribe because it's quite
(05:54):
different point of viewperspective.
The voice is something.
A little less tangible, I think.
For you, did you feel like, wasthat voice always, it sounded
like it was very clear to you,but is it something that you had
to work on?
Natasha Rai (2) (06:09):
Um, I should say yes.
But, because, look, I did, and Ididn't, because Archana
especially just came to me fullyformed.
It was the quality of anger andthat bristling harshness.
I am a rock.
No one will enter me.
No one will ever get past this.
(06:30):
I got that from Ajna.
Yeah, that just came to me sostrongly.
Um, and so I, that, I startedwriting that and then out of
that actually came, well, how dopeople around her deal with it?
Because
she is, if you can just get past that rock,
Part.
She is lovable.
She's just so deeply hurt.
(06:52):
And so who are these people whocould love her?
And then Indu came to me andIndu for me was, I was like, she
cannot be hard herself.
She has to be something else.
And then Vijay is like this,almost like this, uh, like
they're, if they are twostreams, Archana and Indu, Vijay
is this thing in the middle thatthey both kind of batter up
(07:13):
against in different ways.
And that's kind of how I wasthinking about voice.
Madeleine Cleary (07:18):
Some writers, the story comes first for them,
but, but for you, it sounds likein this novel, it's the
characters that really spoke toyou.
Clearly the story flowed around.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (2) (07:29):
The characters always come to me first.
Always for you.
And I've heard you talk to Tinaabout this, about character and
story and the idea of writing asynopsis before just.
Chills me to my very core.
Thank you,
Madeleine Cleary (07:43):
Tina.
You've got to listen to this.
Natasha Rai (2) (07:45):
Natasha and I are on the same page here.
Exactly.
So for me it was alwayscharacters, which is why I
floundered at the beginningbecause it was a bunch of scenes
where something was happening tothese characters or they were
doing something and that wasAfter that, the story started to
emerge.
Madeleine Cleary (08:04):
I think there is so much that we can learn
about this story as well.
And the multiple timelines,there's a, um, you know, a
modern day and a, and a onethat's set in the, it's not
historical fiction, I would say.
It's hard to call
Natasha Rai (2) (08:18):
the 80s and 90s historical.
They were 30, 40 years ago.
Oh, my gosh.
Technically.
Um,
Madeleine Cleary (08:27):
I, so I think there's so much to learn in, in,
you know, looking and reflectingback in the past and in the
current day.
Um, and what I took from thisnovel is that, you know, all of
us have this light and dark inus across our lives.
Um, uh, could you talk maybe alittle bit about About that, and
I'm guessing this is one of thereasons for the title and
(08:50):
onslaught of light.
If we, we have to allow thatlight to come in to be able to
shine upon, but we need the darkas well in order to, to expose
the light.
Natasha Rai (2) (09:00):
Yeah.
And I guess for this, this kindof.
Thinking about dark and light, Iwas really coming at it from a
trauma lens.
Um, because trauma robs us oflight.
Trauma takes away our ability toconnect with others and to
ourselves.
And it really leaves a lot ofpeople in survival mode, where
(09:21):
you know how to go to work, youknow how to look after yourself,
and you miss out on the joy of alot of things, because
everything is geared intocertainty.
And uncertainty lies.
Darkness sometimes, because ifyou're certain about everything,
you can't let curiosityflourish.
You can't allow yourself to tryand not do something because the
trying and doing is too hard.
(09:43):
So I was interested in thedarkness also brings silence.
You can't talk about things, youcan't reach out.
And so the, the, the image thatI had in my mind was this dark
chamber that she's in, Archana,Vijay, and Indu, and like, at
times, somebody or somethingmakes a little chink in your
(10:04):
chamber, and there's this littlebeautiful stream of light that
comes in, and it's about thebravery of going, I'm now
curious about what that lightcomes from, and how does it come
in, and so that was kind ofwhere I was thinking about how
this chamber around her gets Uh,in some ways smashed up by
others
Madeleine Cleary (10:23):
and in
Natasha Rai (2) (10:23):
other ways, she pushes out into that.
Madeleine Cleary (10:26):
Oh, that gave me shivers the way that you
described that.
And throughout the book, thereis, you know, a lot of darkness
in the book, but there are thesemoments that you insert perhaps
deliberately, which are thatthose joyful moments.
And I just, yeah.
Because
Natasha Rai (2) (10:43):
that's the thing, even with trauma, there's
always possibility, there'salways possibility, no matter
how desperate it feels, nomatter how awful it feels, if
you are able to let it in, youcan find it always, but it's
It's about knowing or trustingyourself because everyone has
(11:04):
it.
Madeleine Cleary (11:05):
And your, your work, um, as you're a trauma
counsellor.
Natasha Rai (2) (11:09):
Yes.
Madeleine Cleary (11:10):
Has that informed this view, do you
think?
Natasha Rai (2) (11:14):
Uh, definitely, uh, because I'm constantly
amazed at people's resilienceand that word is used so much
now.
It is.
I'm constantly amazed at ourhuman capacity to recover and
heal.
It is truly amazing.
And I get to do this work that Iget to witness that.
So, and I think it's that it'sthis, because so much of, you
(11:35):
know, when you go online, socialmedia, et cetera, so much of it
is feel sometimes hopeless interms of once you're here, it's
really difficult.
But there is always apossibility, which is what I get
drawn to, the possibility.
Madeleine Cleary (11:50):
There's a lot of irony in the book, I sensed
as well.
And I like the way that youinserted it.
It wasn't in your face, um, butit was a really subtle way of
doing things.
And, and almost a little, yeah,that you, so you got that sort
of humorous side where you couldreflect on your own views and
biases and experiences.
And one of the scenes thatstruck me was when Indhu was at
(12:13):
the government.
Office.
Yes.
And she was behind.
She was talking to a womanworking behind the counter in
fluent English because in Indiapeople speak fluent English and
the woman said, well, we can'tdo this for you unless you
undertake in migrant Englishcourses and Indu said, but we
(12:36):
are having a conversation rightnow in English.
Why do I have to do thesecourses?
And the woman was just like, youjust have to do it.
Yes.
Natasha Rai (2) (12:43):
Yes.
Madeleine Cleary (12:44):
This is, you know, this is something I think
that comes up in migrant inliterature about the migrant
experience.
It's something that is soimportant for all Australians to
engage in, um, and to check ourown biases as well.
Do
you think that, um, we're doing enough?
(13:04):
to promote them in the industry?
Do you, have you felt a shift, Isuppose, in terms of the voices,
the new voices that areemerging?
Natasha Rai (2) (13:12):
I think there's definitely a shift because, you
know, that scene came out of,um, the policy at the time.
So in 1990, when we came, thepolicy was assimilation.
Like, you know, everyone shouldassimilate and be the same and
homogenous.
So those types of, that waspolicy driven.
So it doesn't take any Uh,what's the word, any account of
(13:32):
the person standing in front ofyou with their own history, et
cetera.
Computer says no.
Yeah, exactly.
Exactly.
But I think now things havedefinitely changed.
Like you can, you know, um, SPS,for example, you can watch
multiple programs in differentlanguages.
Um, there's access forcommunities, even community all
around.
And I'm being very specific.
(13:53):
With Sydney now, because this iswhere I live, but you can just
do this beautiful pockets ofcommunity all over the place.
And in publishing, we've got somuch.
It's not there yet to say itisn't there yet, but there are
so many new voices, um,Aboriginal, Sri Lankan, Lebanese
there, you know, from, fromparts of Africa, there is, there
(14:16):
is definitely a move towards it.
In my view, it's not fastenough, it's never fast enough
because even our literaturedoesn't fully yet reflect what's
happening in the real world,like in terms of who lives here
in this country, but we'regetting there and it is much,
much better.
Madeleine Cleary (14:35):
And you know, especially given what's going on
in Australia at the moment.
with everything about socialcohesion and the importance of
social cohesion as well.
I think having literature as away to connect and your book is
all about finding connection.
Yeah, I think it's reallyimportant that us as an industry
go and promote those things too.
And
Natasha Rai (2) (14:54):
I think it's important to say that there is
so much room for everyone.
It's not about if we start toamplify this voice or that
voice, somebody else will missout.
Actually, the more you amplify,the more room you create.
So.
I think sometimes there might bea fear that, you know, we can't
have too much of this or toomuch of that, but it just shows
(15:16):
when you do it and, you know,books sell well, or it does well
in a certain way.
There are people wanting it.
There are readers hungry for it.
Madeleine Cleary (15:24):
Exactly, exactly.
It's exciting.
I think the future is reallyexciting.
Natasha Rai (2) (15:28):
Yeah, I agree.
Madeleine Cleary (15:29):
And, um, I'm excited as well in, you know,
five years when we'll be havinga further conversation after
your stellar prize winning booksand miles Franklin award.
Natasha Rai (2) (15:41):
Don't know about that, but thank you.
Madeleine Cleary (15:44):
Okay.
So let's talk about, because weare obviously on the book deal
podcast.
We're all interested in bookdeals and how you got your deal.
And.
We, I'm going to admit, have hada chat before about your journey
to publication, which is a veryinteresting one.
And this, not only I thoughtyour book was amazing, but I
wanted to get you on, cause Ithink you've got a lot, a lot of
(16:06):
advice for emerging writers.
So let's talk about yourjourney.
So when did you first start?
Writing an Onslaught of Lime.
Natasha Rai (2) (16:17):
So I started writing it in 2017, the year
after I came back from the UK.
And I enrolled, um, in a courseat the, at Writing New South
Wales called The Year of theNovel.
It is still running.
So anyone out there who'sthinking about writing a novel
and has some random scenes oreven a line, enroll.
It is the best thing I ever did.
(16:39):
Um, at the time, Emily Maguire,the excellent Emily Maguire was
teaching the course.
And It was just so helpful.
So over the course of that year,I wrote a draft, I like to call
it zero draft.
I've heard it being called avomit draft before, but it's not
all, you know, putrid.
So I like to call it a zerodraft.
(16:59):
Um, and, um, what gave me thebiggest boost was that year, um,
it was long listed for theRitchell prize,
Madeleine Cleary (17:05):
which is amazing.
So do you want to tell the.
Uh, listeners a little bit aboutRichell Prize because it's an
amazing
Natasha Rai (2) (17:11):
prize.
It is an amazing prize.
The Richell Prize is, um, aprize for unpublished writers
and you submit, I think it'sthree chapters, a synopsis and a
chapter breakdown.
So basically what happens therest of the story, and I think a
statement about what the prizewinning means to you.
You win a mentorship withHachette, um, money that goes to
(17:35):
an advance if you do getpublished.
And the best thing about theprize is you don't have to have
a full length novel ready.
So good.
And it's for unpublished forunpublished writers only.
So it is such an incredibleopportunity and it's worth doing
it.
It's so worth doing it.
What was it like when you gotlonglisted?
(17:56):
It was so amazing because Ididn't even know I was.
Somebody, somebody who I knew,another writer whose group, like
writing group I was in, Um,message me going, Oh my God,
congratulations.
I'm like, what for?
And he's like, you've been longlisted.
I'm like, yeah, and I fully wentonline expecting it to be a typo
or seeing someone else's nameand him have to have misread it.
(18:20):
And there it was.
And at the time I think I wascalling it light and shadow or
light.
Dark corners or something andthere it was and I was like, Oh
my God.
And I emailed Emily cause wewere still doing the course.
And she was like, can I announcethis to the group?
And I'm like, Oh God.
Okay.
But she, you know, I couldcertainly understand why she did
(18:41):
it.
She did it as a way to say, see.
Yes.
Anyone, everyone should, youknow, you should not feel
scared, do it because this iswhat could happen.
Madeleine Cleary (18:50):
And those initial moment, like that, that
first moment when you're writingis validated is it's just so
good, isn't it?
That's powerful because it'sother people might actually like
Natasha Rai (2) (19:01):
somebody else who's an expert is saying, or
maybe not.
Yes.
As an expert, somebody who'sdoes this for a living is
saying.
Your words are worth reading.
Yes.
Your words are worth sharing.
Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary (19:15):
Okay.
So your long list of this is in2017?
Yes.
17, 20 17.
Yep.
What happens then?
Natasha Rai (2) (19:23):
So then I didn't get on the short list,
which is fine.
The long list was enough to likekeep me going for like a good
year after that, Um, so Ifinished my novel.
I got an agent at the timemm-hmm And at the time the novel
was really, really differentstructure and so she, so you're
on a great
Madeleine Cleary (19:36):
path then
Natasha Rai (2) (19:37):
Natasha, because you, you've been
Madeleine Cleary (19:39):
long listed in the retail prize.
And then you get an agent.
Amazing.
Okay.
So you're basically like, thisbook's going to be out next year
and I'm going to That's what
Natasha Rai (2) (19:46):
I genuinely thought.
So then she submitted toeverybody, like all the major
publishers and some of thesmaller ones.
And the feedback I got wasincredibly depressing because it
wasn't anything I could use.
So for example, we don't knowwhere to place this.
Um, this sits in theuncomfortable, uh, space between
literary fiction andcontemporary fiction.
(20:06):
I don't know what that means.
What does that mean?
I don't know.
I still don't know.
Um, and then somebody, somebodyelse said, a publisher who I
won't name, um, the messages ofracism are a bit too much.
So, I'm like, okay, I don't knowwhat to do about that.
Um, so, it's fine.
It's fine.
Wow.
Wow.
Yeah.
(20:27):
Yeah.
And then, so after that, my, um,agent and I did part ways,
because she was like, I thinkwe've come to the end of the
line with this.
I don't know what else to do.
Madeleine Cleary (20:35):
Oh, Natasha, that would have been really
difficult.
Natasha Rai (2) (20:38):
It was, um, but luckily, because some of the
excellent advice that I got frommy Year of the Novel course, I
had started writing otherthings.
Is that going to be like a
Madeleine Cleary (20:47):
top tip?
Have something else going on?
Natasha Rai (2) (20:49):
Yes, I'm going to do the top tip right now
because I've actually got morethan one.
Keep writing.
Do not focus too much on the onething because you'll go mad.
Just keep writing.
Um, and so I just kept writingand I kept working on Onslaught
every now and then I'd come inand do something.
And then in 2018, it was longlisted.
The KYD Kill Your DarlingsUnpublished Manuscript Award.
(21:12):
I don't know if that award stillis still going.
Um, but it was again forunpublished writers and you had
to submit your entiremanuscript.
And I was blown away when I waslonglisted.
Huge.
Huge, a huge deal.
Madeleine Cleary (21:29):
So you've been, you've shortlisted for two
major unpublished manuscriptawards.
Yeah.
So you're, you've got something.
Yeah.
There was something there.
Christine Newell (2) (21:38):
Hi everyone.
I'm Christine Newell, a memberof the 2025 Debut Crew and
author of Five Seasons in Seoul,which was released on the 25th
of February through AffirmPress.
Five Seasons in Seoul is amemoir about my experience
living and performing in SouthKorea.
My father's death after aprolonged illness left me
(22:00):
suffering with debilitatinganxiety and depression, and I
was at a low point in my musicaltheatre career, dressing up as a
dinosaur to pay the bills.
So, when a role with anexperimental theatre company
based in South Korea came upunexpectedly, it seemed like the
perfect escape from my problems.
But, I soon discovered, there'sno running away from yourself.
(22:24):
The book follows my journey fromthe southeastern suburbs of
Melbourne to the affluentdistrict of Gangnam in Seoul,
where I faced a lot ofunexpected challenges while
adjusting to my new job andhome.
It's an exploration of Koreanlife.
The food, landscape and culture,as well as a deeply personal
story of travel and the ways itcan transform us.
(22:46):
Five Seasons in Seoul is out nowin all good bookstores.
I celebrated my book launch atthe beginning of this month, and
I've been overwhelmed by thefeedback from some early readers
who've told me that they relatedto my memoir on a very personal
level.
That's one of the reasons Iwrote it, and I'm looking
forward to connecting with morereaders in the next few months.
Thanks for listening and a hugethank you to Madeleine and Tina
(23:09):
for providing an opportunity forthe Debut crew to share their
books with you all.
Natasha Rai (2) (23:14):
Anyway and then after that I wasn't shortlisted
and then I kind of submitted toa few other competitions again
and uh, I left it.
I just left it.
And then in 2020, I decided todo a rewrite because I was like,
you know what I'm, I'm not donewith it.
I'm not done with it.
Were you tempted to
Madeleine Cleary (23:29):
put it down?
Was there, there must have beenthat temptation.
Cause after going through all ofthis, getting to the end of it
and yeah.
Well, I'm
Natasha Rai (2) (23:37):
just going
Madeleine Cleary (23:38):
to slide another tip
Natasha Rai (2) (23:39):
in when you, when you can't see your
manuscript anymore, when youcannot figure out what isn't
working, cause you know, itisn't working.
Cause that's the feedback you'regetting.
Put it away.
There's
no urgency.
There was no rush.
Nothing will happen.
Just put it away for as long asyou can handle it.
I would say six months if youcan handle being away from it,
(24:01):
because it really was arevelation because I left it
alone for a year.
When I went back to it, I wasjust like, whoa, there is so
much I can do with this now.
Madeleine Cleary (24:11):
Amazing.
Having that insight so much,it's almost like a, you're
having that helicopterperspective, the novel.
Yeah.
Whereas when you are writing itand you are editing it every
day, you're in in it.
Yes.
In
Natasha Rai (2) (24:21):
that world.
Yes.
And I think it also, what itfelt like coming back to it, was
it, it, yes, it was my work, butthere was also, I didn't
remember writing some of it.
Mm.
But parts of it, I was like, oh.
I don't remember writing that.
So it really helps you have adistance and gets you thinking
about it in a different way.
Um, so yeah, 2020, 2020, and Imet the most amazing editor in
(24:46):
the on the planet.
Sorry, all the other editors,um, Alison Fraser, who I was,
she was recommended to me by agood friend who won a mentorship
with her.
And Ali basically.
Reddit.
So this was my next big boost.
She read it.
And on our first zoom chat, shejust said to me in the most
matter of fact tone.
She wasn't trying to suck up.
(25:08):
She wasn't being judgmental.
She just went, Oh yeah, thiswill get published.
She just said it in this way.
And I'm like, really?
She goes, Oh yeah, it does needsome work, but it will
definitely get picked up.
Madeleine Cleary (25:18):
Oh,
Natasha Rai (2) (25:18):
I've just got shivers.
I know.
And I was just like, Oh my God.
Oh my God.
Anyway.
And so we worked on thattogether.
And then, um, there was apublisher introduction day, I
think it's called.
So Writing NSW still hoststhese.
So for all the baby writers outthere and unpublished writers
who are like, maybe should I doit?
(25:39):
So what it is, it's a day wherethe publisher comes into the
center and they really put a lotof resources into it.
As in.
They, they come in the editors,publishers, marketing team, and
they run through what happenswhen you submit to them
and
they tell you what they have to do, how they
have to think about it.
So someone from their sales teamcomes, the acquisitions team
(26:01):
comes, and the best part is youget to submit an excerpt of your
work and you get one on onetime.
No, with a, uh, with a member ofthe team.
Madeleine Cleary (26:11):
Oh, that is invaluable.
That is amazing.
It's invaluable.
You get all the information andthen Yeah, exactly.
Natasha Rai (2) (26:17):
Amazing.
So you submit beforehand.
So I, it was Pantera and I hadmy eye Panera for a while
because they publish sucheclectic.
unique books.
And I really loved their, theywere almost not aggressive, but
they're almost hungry for newvoices, Australian stories.
And I'm like, this sounds like anice fit.
(26:38):
So I submitted my excerpt and Imet with the excellent Kate
Cuthbert, who was an editor atPantera, sadly not there
anymore.
And we had a seven minute chatand I actually submitted
something else.
It wasn't even onslaught.
And she said, I love this.
Can I see the rest of it?
And I panicked and went, no,because it's not ready.
(26:59):
And she said, well, in your bio,you mentioned onslaught what's
happening with that.
And at the time it was in acompetition and being as I am a
stickler for the rules.
I said, I'm not allowed to showit to you.
And she's like, show it to meimmediately.
I'm like, okay.
Um, so that was the Friday andon Tuesday she, uh, rang me and
(27:20):
said.
I love Onslaught.
I want to take her toAcquisitions.
I'm like, what?
Um, So she, she came back to youin three days.
Yep.
She was like, I read it allweekend.
Oh my God.
Oh my God.
Um, okay.
So after that, things moved veryfast.
I went to Acquisitions and thenat Acquisitions, I was told.
(27:41):
It's not a no, but it's not ayes.
Madeleine Cleary (27:47):
It's like, you know, you get these highs and
then it just like comes down.
It's the roller coaster.
Natasha Rai (2) (27:51):
So you just got to like weather, weather it out.
And then, um, and then I washighly commended in the other
competition.
Oh my gosh.
Yes, I was just like, Oh my God,what do I do?
And even the highly commended, Ialways find this stuff out in
the weirdest ways.
No one called me, no one emailedme.
I was happy to be scrolling onInstagram and saw the
announcement from thecompetition going, and we have a
(28:12):
highly commended Natasha Rai.
I'm like, what?
And at that point I had, causeI've always been quite.
And not anxious, nervous aboutapproaching publishers because
they just seem like, you know,God's so not this time.
I was like, you know what, stuffit.
I'm just going to be reallybrave.
So I emailed the publisher and Iwent, hi, I've been highly
commended for your prize.
(28:33):
Can we have a chat?
And so we had a chat and shegave me feedback.
And at the same time, Panteragave me feedback.
And the two feedbacks.
Yeah.
We're totally different.
Oh my gosh.
One publisher wanted me to stripout to one point of view and the
other publisher wanted me tobeef up the points of view.
Madeleine Cleary (28:53):
Having read Onslaught, losing those points
of view would have been souldestroying for the book.
Natasha Rai (2) (29:00):
So I did go insane for a day because I
thought I'm going to do both.
I'm going to write a novel.
How?
How?
I know that's what I mean.
I went insane for a day.
And then I spoke to Ali, myeditor who worked with me, and I
spoke to a few other writers,including Emily, who all went,
calm your farm, look at thefeedback.
What do you want out of thisbook?
(29:21):
How would you feel if your bookwas out in the world with one or
both, with one of those?
Structures.
And I'm like, I know thestructure I want,
and
I knew I understood the publisher that
had said, can we just have onefeedback I understood is another
top tip.
I'm going to slip it in now whenyou get feedback and it doesn't
(29:41):
make sense to you panic, takethe time to freak out, then go
back and look at what it isthey're trying to fix because
the feedback itself may not makesense to you.
But look at the theme or what itis that might be missing.
So I realized what was missingwas not that it did at one point
of view was that the story wasreally unbalanced and.
(30:04):
It needed more from the othercharacters.
So I'm like, I know how to fixthat.
So then I took, I think, fourmonths, five months to do that.
I sent it back to both.
And I said to the publisher thatwanted one, I'm like, I didn't
do what you asked me, but here'sthe problem.
I think you've asked me to fix,which I think I've now done.
Madeleine Cleary (30:22):
And on your points of view, I just found.
It's amazing the way you wereable to keep the story going,
because sometimes the story canget bogged down in multiple
points of view and especiallyyou were going across two
timelines as well, but it was soseamless and I thought very
equitable in the way that youdid it.
(30:42):
You really got the insight.
So clearly you'd put a lot ofattention into this.
Natasha Rai (2) (30:47):
Yes, I did.
Cause I knew it, cause then itbecame very clear to me on that.
Now I understand.
And Ali, of course, helped mefigure out how do you beef up or
how do you add to the otherpoints of view without exactly
what you said, without itdragging and getting bogged
down.
And so I went back to both, onepublisher passed and Pantera,
yeah, and Pantera was the onewho said yes.
(31:09):
And then I was in the UK at thetime visiting family and they'd
gone to acquisitions and then itwas all quiet.
And I was like, don't, don'thound Kate, just leave it.
But what I did know was the nois very fast, but the no had not
come.
So I'm like.
Oh my God.
It means they're deliberating,which means there's a chance.
Oh my God.
(31:30):
And on the 10th of May, 2023,I've got an, it was in the
morning.
I was staying at my friend'shouse in London.
I was in my pajamas.
And
Madeleine Cleary (31:37):
I love that you know, the date.
I
Natasha Rai (2) (31:41):
woke up in the morning.
There was an email from Kategoing, can we have a chat next
week?
And I'm like, Nope, I'm gettingon a plane back to Australia,
which means I cannot talk to youtill whatever day next week.
And I will not wait.
She's like, let's get on a zoomnow.
And I'm like, My hair, I mean,my pajamas, just I don't care.
And so we got on zoom and shesaid, we would love to publish
(32:01):
you.
And I just screamed andscreamed.
And all I could think of was I'malone in my friend's house and
there's no one here to witnessthis moment.
It was the best moment, notever, but very close.
Madeleine Cleary (32:13):
So this is a journey that's taken six years
from the day that you finishedon sort, uh, until getting the
book deal, which is anincredible feat.
And obviously, you know, you'vegone through that rollercoaster,
what, what was helpful for youto continue persisting with,
(32:33):
with onslaught?
Like, was there something thatreally helped you?
Natasha Rai (2) (32:38):
There were two things, I think, looking back,
one was my own.
Um, feeling that it was, it wasworth telling because I know, I
know that lots of writers whentheir debut novels come out, say
this was not the first novel Iwrote.
Um, and I, so I was aware ofthat, but I just had this
feeling it had to be told it wasrelevant.
(32:58):
It was an Australian story, anAustralian story that we don't
always get to hear.
And the other thing, the otherthing that kept me going was
these moments of light, thesecompetitions, this feedback that
was saying, There is somethingworth telling here.
It's just not ready yet.
So I think those two things justhelped keep pushing.
Madeleine Cleary (33:21):
So you signed in May, 2023.
It's now March 2025,
Natasha Rai (2) (33:27):
almost two years.
I know.
And she said, when I said, Oh,when, when are you thinking?
She goes March, 2025.
My heart did sink a little bit.
I have to admit, I was like, Oh,okay.
And then I thought, who cares?
I've come this far.
Like what's another year and ahalf.
Madeleine Cleary (33:42):
And have you, has the time been worthwhile,
Natasha Rai (2) (33:45):
do you feel?
Oh, for sure.
Because I've learned now so muchmore about editing than I
learned from all the editorsI've worked with across, across
that time.
And I've been working on otherstuff as well.
So I just, I feel like I'm, I'vegot a good, Way of doing that,
where I can just put thingsaside and say, I cannot worry
about that.
I cannot do anything more aboutthat.
(34:06):
Let me focus on this.
And that helps me go.
And of course, our debut crewhaving this amazing community
has all been amazing.
Madeleine Cleary (34:15):
And I feel Natasha, your story throughout
this journey of yours thatyou've gone down to your pathway
to publication.
The thing that stands out for meis the community for you and the
connection.
That's been a really big.
support for you.
And I think it's a testament toyou that you go out there and
make connections.
There's a reason why you werethe second person to reach or
(34:38):
first person to reach out to me,number two member of the debut
crew.
And the way that you had talkedabout your story, like you, you
signed up to the courses theyear in the novel with Emily
McGuire, Emily, and you are nowvery good friends.
As a result of that, you keepmaintaining these connections.
You met that wonderful editorwho helped you along the way.
Like all these people have.
Come, and Kate, obviously yourchampion.
Natasha Rai (2) (35:00):
Yes.
She's in Pantera.
Madeleine Cleary (35:02):
Yes.
So do you wanna talk a littlebit about the community and how
important that is?
Natasha Rai (2) (35:06):
For sure.
And this is one of my other toptips and I'm just sliding all
into your episode.
um, community is the thingbecause writing is obviously a
solitary, um, exercise activity,but what it does listening to
other writers talk about thewriters is there is a thrill, a
(35:26):
connection that feels so deepwhen somebody else.
It's like, it's so true, isn'tit?
When you have somebody going, Ohmy God, I totally understand it.
You know, that timeline isn'tworking.
Like, have you thought about,and you're having a discussion,
(35:47):
a very serious discussion aboutsomething that is completely
made up.
There is nothing like it in theworld.
It is the most special thingever.
And so when you have thatconnection of people or people
in your life that are willing todo that with you and you do that
for them, and then of course itdeepens, you read each other's
work, you give feedback and youstart to get a sense of
(36:08):
somebody's style, somebody'shabits, especially writing, I
mean, and it just feels like aconnection, like no other.
And there'll be lots of falsestarts along the way, like, as a
quick aside, years ago, I wastrying to find my community in
terms of swapping work to givefeedback.
And I found somebody online andwe swapped our work.
(36:30):
And two days before we hadagreed the deadline to give the
feedback, she said, I'm sosorry.
I can't reach a manuscript.
It's too triggering.
And it was another manuscript.
It wasn't even on sort.
And I had taken the time,obviously to read her
manuscript, to write detailednotes, to do all of it.
And I was so crushed.
Um, by
that.
So it is a little bit likedating for the single writers
(36:52):
out there where you can meetpeople and it's not a good fit,
but persevere, persevere,persevere.
Madeleine Cleary (36:58):
Emily McGuire once said to me when I met her
for the first time in a, anevent in Melbourne, we were
talking about you, Natasha.
Oh God.
Okay.
She said, you are a beautifulwriter, but you're also an
excellent reader.
And you've read a lot of herearly work.
She said you are an incredibleobserver and great reader.
(37:19):
Reading I think is another toptip, isn't it?
When it comes to writing.
Natasha Rai (2) (37:23):
I have met writers who are like, I don't
read.
I'm like, what?
How can you possibly writeanything?
Oh yeah.
I read, I read, I read.
I mean, I think one of mybiggest flaws with reading is I
do tend to only read in my, inGenre, which is literary
fiction.
So I am trying to widen andbroaden that.
Um, but I love reading, likereading for me is like
(37:44):
breathing.
You know, when people say, Ohno, I've got to make time for
it.
And I'm like, it's like sayingI'm going to make time to live.
Like what?
Um, yeah, I don't leave thehouse without a book in my bag
or an audio book.
If I don't carry a bag, likeit's impossible.
Madeleine Cleary (37:56):
Yes.
I totally understand.
Okay.
So your book's coming out in theworld after so many years.
What are you most excited about?
Natasha Rai (2) (38:07):
I'm really excited about sharing the story.
Um, with people, I'm excitedabout the idea that somebody
might pick it up and say, Oh myGod, that resonates with me, or
that resonates with parts of myexperience.
And there is hope that there isa way to change.
And just also just readingsomething that's really
(38:28):
different.
Australian stories, especiallygrowing up, were either set in
the bush or parts of citiesthat, and lives that had nothing
to do with mine, that I reallywanted because I thought that
was what was the right thing forme to want.
Um, so.
Yeah, I think those things arewhat I'm most excited about.
Madeleine Cleary (38:47):
Oh, I am so excited to come out into the
world and to tell everyone abouthow amazing it is.
I just couldn't believe it's adebut.
It's been through a lot of work.
Natasha Rai (2) (38:57):
It has, it really has.
Madeleine Cleary (39:00):
And what are you writing next as well?
I'm sure this will be a commonquestion in all your interviews.
What is it that you're workingon now, Natasha?
Natasha Rai (2) (39:08):
So, uh, because I'm me and I don't make life
easy for myself, I'm working ontwo things actually.
You're like Tina then.
Oh yes, I guess so.
Um, yeah.
So one is something, amanuscript I've been working on
for about four years, maybe evenlonger.
Um, it's set across threetimelines.
I think I have a thing fortimelines, Madeleine.
(39:29):
You do.
You do.
You do it well though.
So continue.
Um, and I'm just struggling withone of the timelines, which is
why it's taken me so long.
And the other one is more, um,of a single timeline, single
point of view.
It's a meditation on grief.
So
I keep going back and forth because I feel
differently about differentthings at certain times, but
(39:49):
that's what I'm working on.
Madeleine Cleary (39:51):
I forgot to ask you as well.
What, what was the inspirationbehind the title?
Natasha Rai (2) (39:56):
Ah, yes.
So, um, I'm terrible at titles.
Um, so I usually don't have anytitles for anything.
Um, I think it was calledUntitled by Natasha Rack?
Well, it was called Arch, Ithink, for ages, just as a file
name.
And it was, I was writing, I waswriting a scene one day, and I
just wrote without meaning to, Ijust wrote something about the
sun coming out from behind theclouds, and she was hit by an
(40:18):
onslaught of light.
And I'm like, whoa, that soundsgood.
I know the scene.
Madeleine Cleary (40:24):
It was in the Blue Mountains.
Natasha Rai (2) (40:25):
Yes, that's right.
And I'm like, that's it.
That's the title.
So that's how it came about.
Madeleine Cleary (40:30):
Love it.
Okay, so you have given us somany top tips already.
Do you have a final top tip,Natasha?
Natasha Rai (2) (40:39):
Keep going.
You just have to keep going.
If you really want to betraditionally published, you
have to persevere.
Take the time you need when youget disappointed.
Take the time, take a day, takea week, take a month, whatever
you need, and allow that to comein, because you know some
people, I think sometimes youthink, well you have to keep
going, which means you can'tacknowledge those feelings, you
(41:00):
totally should, becausedisappointment is real, it's
crushing, but don't let it bowyou out, and don't let it break
you down, just use it as a wayto say, well you know what, it's
No, I still have something tosay, and I'm going to keep
going.
Madeleine Cleary (41:15):
I want to write down all your advice,
Natasha, and just put it on wallon my walls in my office.
Like, I feel like you're, youhave some great quotes to put
around.
I could listen to you talk fordays.
Natasha Rai (2) (41:29):
Well, it's been a real pleasure to be on here
and talking to you like this.
I've really loved it.
Madeleine Cleary (41:34):
I have loved it as well.
So thank you for joining us,Natasha.
Thank you, Madeleine.
Good
Natasha Rai (2) (41:37):
luck.
Tina Strachan (2) (41:39):
Thanks.
Thank you for listening to thebook deal podcast.
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