July 23, 2025 • 49 mins
Celebrating One Year of The Book Deal Podcast: Memorable Moments and Insights
In this special one-year anniversary episode of The Book Deal Podcast, hosts Tina Strachan, Madeleine Cleary, and Natasha Rai reflect on their favorite moments and insightful interviews from the past year. They share their most memorable quotes from guest authors, delve into the nuances of measuring success as a debut author, and discuss the benefits of having an agent. The episode is filled with laughter and gratitude, as the hosts celebrate their journey and the wonderful community they’ve built.
This week's Debut in the Spotlight is Billie Rooney with her debut picture book, Creature Corridors (CSIRO, February 2025) and illustrated by Anke Noack.
00:00 Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast
00:42 Celebrating One Year of Podcasting
01:41 Reminiscing Over the Past Year
07:37 Natasha's Favourite Moments
17:05 Tina's Favourite Moments
25:18 The Importance of Longevity in Publishing
25:52 Introducing 'Creature Corridors' by Billie Rooney
27:11 Navigating the Publishing Industry
28:19 Building Relationships with Booksellers
32:01 Quotes and Trivia Fun
38:42 The Role of Agents in a Writing Career
48:27 Celebrating One Year of the Podcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Madeleine Cleary (00:09):
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will
discover the inspiring stories,the authors behind your favorite
books.
Tina Strachan (00:15):
No matter what sage of writing you are at,
we've got you covered.
I'm Tina
Madeleine Cleary (00:19):
Strachan.
And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one
deal at a time.
The book Deal podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners, the land and waters,which it's recorded on.
And pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging.
Tina Strachan (00:42):
Welcome everybody to this very special episode of
the Book Deal podcast.
It is our one year anniversary.
Woohoo.
There's all three of us here.
Uh, myself, Tina Strachan, andMadeleine Cleary.
And Natasha, Rai?
Yay.
And we're all here to have avery special episode to
(01:05):
celebrate one year off the pod.
Madeleine Cleary (01:08):
We're having a party on a Monday night and I've
got my cup of tea.
Yeah,
Tina Strachan (01:11):
you've
Natasha Rai (01:12):
got tea.
Madeleine Cleary (01:12):
Hopefully someone has wine.
Natasha Rai (01:14):
At least one of us.
Have you
Madeleine Cleary (01:14):
got Tash?
Natasha Rai (01:15):
I've got water.
Sorry.
Oh man.
I know.
Look,
I tried.
I even have a non-alcoholicmargarita.
Maybe put salt
Tina Strachan (01:25):
on the rim and everything just to make it feel
a little bit more special.
We were gonna do, do like
Madeleine Cleary (01:29):
a little, we were gonna do like a little
champagne, weren't we?
We were.
Do that next.
Tina Strachan (01:34):
Alright.
Yeah, yeah.
To do.
We'll say it before in personwhen we do an in person one.
Um, oh, so this is so special.
I can't believe it's been a yearalready.
So we're super excited and wethought.
What we might do to celebrate isto have a little reminisce over
the year that has been, um,we've had lots of amazing guests
(01:56):
on the pod and lots of amazingdiscussions, and we wanted to
pull out, each of us has chosensome of our favorite, um, I
guess quotes or interviews andguests that's we've, that we've
had.
Um, but first I just wanna saythank you.
To Madeleine and Natasha forbeing incredible co-hosts on the
(02:18):
book deal podcast.
Um, couldn't do it, couldn'thave done it without you.
Um, it's been so super fun andI've, I feel very privileged to
have been able to spend the lastyear getting to know you girls
and just chatting away.
And it's still a bit, um, itstill blows me away that people
actually listen and I often justlove just chatting to you
(02:38):
ladies.
Anyway, so it's just kind ofcool that we record it and
people get to listen to it aswell.
Madeleine Cleary (02:43):
I agree meeting this has been so, so
much fun.
And um, I'll never forget, and Ithink Natasha was on the call as
well, when you announced to ourdebut crew we're all on a zoom
that you were going to start apodcast.
And I remember feeling soincredibly jealous.
I was like, ah, I do a podcastas well.
Uh, so I think I messaged youthat night and said, I think it
(03:06):
was about three seconds later.
Would you accept a tag along?
And Natasha, you have
Natasha Rai (03:13):
a funny and interesting story about that
too, don't you?
Yeah.
It's so funny because, and Ijust wanna say before I tell
you, I'm so grateful that I'm a,because I'm a recent addition to
the team, so thank you.
Having not that recent now.
Not that recent now.
Yeah, you're right.
But it was so funny'cause whenMadeleine Manu asked me if I
would consider kind of hostingmaybe one episode a month, I was
like, yes.
Because literally that nightwhen Tina, you said you were
(03:35):
gonna host a podcast, I waslike, oh my God, I should get in
touch with her.
And then I did it'cause I was asper usual.
Scared and shy, and then you twoannounced it and I'm like,
dammit, I could have done it.
I shoulda have done it.
But anyway, here, I'm now hereYou're, and you took
Madeleine Cleary (03:50):
that a secret as well, like we're obviously
good friends.
You never told me that until Isaid, would you like to come?
I know.
Well, because it felt
Natasha Rai (03:57):
a bit shish to be like, I wanted to do that.
So.
Madeleine Cleary (04:03):
Well, it all ended in the right thing.
I think the three of us.
It's been so, so much fun.
I think that's been the joy andthe highlight for me in the last
couple of years in getting toknow the industry is this
podcast.
And, and I think about it aswell.
In the last year, we've all,we've, between the three of us,
we've published four books inthat time as well.
Mm-hmm.
So we've also started a podcastduring probably some of the
(04:24):
busiest times of our lives too.
That's right.
Um, and I.
Cringe now to think and lookback on some of our early
episodes.
Um, and wonder, well, I haven'tlistened back, but I, I'm just
imagining if I think I'm gonnacringe now, what would it be
like in sort of three to fouryears when we listen back on all
our anxieties and concerns andthoughts?
Natasha Rai (04:45):
No, I think that those are all actually.
Beautiful reminders of where wewere or are in our journey.
Because you know, like I wasthinking about this the other
day.
I was having a chat to a friendand I was talking about, you
know, worrying about my secondmanuscript, et cetera, and they
were like, did you just hearwhat you just said?
And I'm like, I know, two yearsago I was so worried about
(05:07):
getting published full stop.
And here I am going, oh, youknow, what's gonna happen with
my second one and when should Isubmit?
And it's just.
It's so interesting and excitinghow things move on and how our,
maybe not worries, but focuschanges.
So I think those early episodes,if you listen back to them,
they're just gonna be beautifulreminders of where you were,
(05:28):
right?
Tina Strachan (05:29):
Mm-hmm.
And that's why it's so, so niceto be.
Have the whole debut crew andwe've still got six months left
right.
Or five months left of the yearwhere we get to celebrate the
releases of all the incredibledebut crews books that are
coming out.
Yeah, for sure.
Um, yeah, so that's been anotherreal.
Real benefit to be able tosupport the debut crew this year
(05:50):
as well.
And we hope to keep doing it,don't we?
We just, with every debut crewthat comes past, so hopefully
debut crew 2026, we can, we canroll on with the debut
spotlights, but
Madeleine Cleary (06:01):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tina Strachan (06:03):
Get in contact.
Madeleine Cleary (06:05):
Yes, that's right.
Sure.
That's never too early.
I'm sure there'll be lots ofERs.
We, um, actually our Melbourne2025 day boot crew is catching
up with the 2026 day boot crewin Melbourne next.
Oh.
Wow.
Natasha's looking at me.
Like, what?
I'm so jealous.
Tina Strachan (06:22):
That's fomo.
Big time.
Madeleine Cleary (06:24):
Yeah, me too.
Yeah, we're ex It's exciting.
So, um, Leanna Shaw, I metLeanna at an event I did with
Anne Freeman and Leanna's thedebrief for next year.
And we we're just chatting andwe sort of thought, oh, it might
be a nice idea now to actuallytalk now before things start
getting really, really hectic.
Um, and, you know, if we, ifthere's any advice that we can
impart, then of course.
Take that.
(06:44):
Um, but I think the crew, fromthe sounds of it, everyone I've
spoken to for next year,they're, they're really
brilliant and I'm so excited fornext year.
But we still have five monthsleft of this year.
Yes.
So we've got lots of new, lotsmore exciting titles to look
forward to.
Mm-hmm.
It'll
Tina Strachan (07:00):
never get old, that feeling will of, of the
debut.
Madeleine Cleary (07:03):
No, that's right.
And then Tina, I think afteryour third book comes out this
year, you can probably say youare no longer a debut author.
Yeah.
Tina Strachan (07:12):
Probably three books in.
That's sad, isn't it?
Alrighty.
Well, we, um, I'm excited to goand revisit these interviews and
quotes some of our favoritequotes, um, from the year that
was, and who wants to go first?
Hmm?
Madeleine Cleary (07:31):
What should be your first team?
Natasha.
Oh, Natasha.
Oh, Natasha.
Oh gosh.
Well you've got two Natasha, somaybe you should Yeah, that's
what I was thinking.
Natasha Rai (07:37):
Okay, I'll go first.
So, um, I've picked these twointerviews or these two guests
for different reasons.
So the first person I wasthinking about is, um, Zaheda
Gaheni She is the author ofPomegranate and Fig and her date
that came out, uh, in 2023.
So the reason I really love thatinterview, uh, was because she
(08:00):
so generously gave so manybeautiful.
Tips around writing practice andthe one that blew my mind, even
though everyone else seems toalready do it, is um, her idea
of setting intention for eachtime you sit down.
So even if you decide thatyou're going to use your writing
time to research, it doesn'tfeel like.
(08:21):
You've wasted time or that youhaven't written anything,
because that was the intentionand there was just some, it
sounds so simple, but there wasjust something so good about
that, that it actually justchanged my writing practice.
Mm-hmm.
Um, because I now sit down andhave an intention and if the
intention is to yeah, researchor to read, read some, to do
some reading in relation to whatI'm working on, it still feels
(08:45):
like progress.
So that's what I really liked.
It's get Chuck,
Madeleine Cleary (08:48):
don't you, when you are not.
Progressing word count where youthink, yes, yes.
Well, I'm not progressinganything and I'm failing and I'm
getting behind and stuck.
But really it's even, even ifyou're not on your laptop, even
if it's just deciding to takehalf an hour to go for a walk
and just think about the book.
Exactly.
Natasha Rai (09:06):
It do writing.
Yeah.
And word count is not the onlymeasure.
Mm-hmm.
And, and from there, you knowthis idea that if you write your
a writer, there's no.
There's no test or something youhave to pass to qualify as a
writer.
Zaheda Ghani (09:21):
Well, should I play the quote?
Natasha Rai (09:23):
Yes, please.
Zaheda Ghani (09:24):
There isn't really a criteria for whether you are a
writer or not, that kind of, um,wanting to pass a gate or
earning it as a right is not athing.
If we are writing, becausethat's where we like to have our
creative outlet, then we are awriter.
(09:46):
It doesn't matter beyond that.
Natasha Rai (09:48):
I like that.
Zaheda Ghani (09:49):
Yeah, perfect.
Natasha Rai (09:50):
Exactly, because you know, even, um, meeting
people who are writing or youknow what we all did, writing in
secret maybe, or writing andloving it, but not being able to
talk about it, it just makes mesad.
So that just, it's a beautifulmessage.
If you're right, you're awriter.
Madeleine Cleary (10:07):
Yeah.
I think you had to get overcomethe shyness then too.
Mm-hmm.
When you are before the gate,the so-called gate.
Yes, exactly.
Tina Strachan (10:16):
Yeah.
What is that about?
I don't know what that's about,but that was definitely me too.
So, and I, I do wish that Ididn't do that.
'cause I feel like just allthose years that I missed out on
making connections, like I don'tthink I would've got published
any sooner.
'cause I still would've had todo the.
Years of writing and everything,but I would've made connections,
um, sooner, just missed out onthat community a little bit
sooner.
And, you know, maybe I actuallywould've got published a bit
(10:38):
sooner because I would've spentmore time.
And because I would'verecognized that, Hey, you can
actually do this.
Why are you doing it in secret?
Actually, take the time now.
Put effort in now maybe.
So anyone who's listening, whois writing in secret, get out
there and get into thecommunity.
It's just.
Yeah, a step, a step forward.
Hey.
Mm-hmm.
So, Taj, but you had a secondone, didn't you?
(10:59):
You had two quotes'cause youfound it
Natasha Rai (11:01):
hard to choose.
Yeah, I did find it hard tochoose.
Um, so my second interview guestis Shankari Chandran, the Miles
Franklin winner.
Um, and so the, her book thatwon the Miles Franklin Award's,
chai Time at Cinnamon Gardens,so the reason I loved her words,
um, in that interview is that.
To have somebody of that, like,to have that kind of success.
(11:23):
'cause she's had five books out,I think here it's five.
And to have won such a majorliterary prize.
'cause in the interview shetalks about how at one point she
had given up, she'd given up onthe idea of publication, but
what she never gave up on waswriting.
Um, and I love this idea thatshe says that she writes her
everything, her feelings intoit.
(11:44):
She, she writes everything she'sexperiencing because.
It resonated with me.
'cause I feel I do that in mycharacters.
Like I write things that I'mexperiencing in the world and I
think a lot of writers do that.
You know, I heard HarleyScribner say when she was asked
about is she is one of thecharacters her, and she's like,
you know, aren't we all in allof our characters?
So
that
(12:05):
just spoke to me more about, you know, what we as
writers put into our workregardless of publication.
So I just really loved the wayshe talks about what she puts
into her writing.
Madeleine Cleary (12:15):
It also astounded me that, um.
She felt like back, sort of, itwas like 10 years ago, she had
to change a character that the,um, intern Oh yes.
A white character and that, andthen, and then after, you know,
all those years of having thoserejections and um, just c try
time came out of that.
(12:36):
Well, I don't.
Okay.
I don't think this is gonna getpublished.
I don't, I'm just gonna writewhat I wanna write for my
family.
Mm.
And then that becomes, you know, this highly
acclaimed piece of work.
That's one miles Frank.
Exactly.
Natasha Rai (12:49):
And in so many ways, she's, you know, she's the
trailblazer of her people likeme.
'cause now I've written a bookwith a person of color as the
main character and all, everyonemainly in it.
And no one.
Thought anything weird about itor no one said, oh, this is
weird that there's, you know, abrown person in it.
So she's a trailblazer.
Madeleine Cleary (13:07):
Mm.
It's, um, well, hopefully infuture Ultimo can, well, they've
got the rights now.
They can go and retract and, andhave it the way it should have
always been.
Exactly.
Such an interesting episode.
I love that.
And, and it was a fantasticinterview, Natasha.
Natasha Rai (13:23):
Thank you.
Yeah, I read it.
I was having her on.
Madeleine Cleary (13:25):
Everyone just take notes, like just, I think
the whole episode.
Just take notes.
But this is a great, great quotehere.
Okay.
So if you're interested, go backto episode 36 with Shankari.
This is just a little taster.
Shankari Chandran (13:38):
But writing for me is incredibly
therapeutic, and it's reallypart of that process of
maintaining hope.
I write a lot of my anger,frustration, my fears, my
existential anxieties, myconcerns about injustices.
I work through a lot of that inmy writing.
Madeleine Cleary (13:54):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Love that.
It's very therapeutic.
Mm.
Would you, do you find it therapeutic, Tina
writing?
Tina Strachan (14:05):
Um, yeah, I mean, I don't think I write about, um,
what Karri writes about with,you know, she's obviously coming
and that's very good, sort ofdeep and, um, meaningful sort
of, you know, fodder for her,for her writing.
So I feel for her that's likeshe just said it's therapy,
(14:25):
right.
Um, it's probably more, not, notso much therapy in the same
sense, but.
It's a kind of more therapy asin almost for me, like a
mindfulness or a, you know, justlike exercises.
I think it's just as important,right?
(14:46):
Like it's exercising my mind andmy brain and I mean, it's
something in there that needs tocome out and it's thoroughly
enjoyable.
So I literally have joy from it,so, or get joy from it.
So, um, for me it's important.
For my health.
Right.
Writing to keep myself sane, Ithink.
Yeah.
What
Natasha Rai (15:05):
about you guys?
Tina Strachan (15:06):
It's cheaper
Natasha Rai (15:06):
than therapy, isn't it?
Yeah,
Tina Strachan (15:09):
sure is.
But
Natasha Rai (15:10):
with the right therapist, it's totally worth
the
Tina Strachan (15:12):
cost.
This is true.
This is true.
Writing won't fix everything.
Unfortunately, if only.
Natasha Rai (15:18):
I think, sorry,
Madeleine Cleary (15:19):
I had to, had to insert that.
Oh no.
And for those who don't know,Natasha is counselor therapist.
So are we allowed to say that onair?
Tina Strachan (15:30):
Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary (15:30):
It's not a
Tina Strachan (15:31):
secret.
Not a secret.
Not a secret.
That's why when you listen toher episodes, you just feel so,
you know, relaxed and, and, andwe should say like, you've just
had your own session even.
That's great.
Madeleine Cleary (15:44):
Well, that's the great thing, like we've got
this and for the listeners weshould, we're very sorry that
you're not part of this, but wehave our own WhatsApp.
Um, chat where we send eachother voice memos throughout the
day, pretty much every day.
And it is kind of like your ownpersonal therapy session, like,
(16:07):
because you just voice all your,and I'm just gonna quote Shankar
here.
Anger, frustration, fears,existential anxieties, concerns
about injustices.
Um, and yeah.
Really helpful and I have tosay, yeah, Natasha, when you
respond, it is very calming.
You, you have a very beautifulvoice, I think.
Yes.
Natasha Rai (16:26):
It's very relaxing.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Tina Strachan (16:31):
See, I know, I get excited when I see a little
voicemail, like, you know, Isee, oh, there's a message and I
open it up.
But if it's a voicemail, um, Iget, yeah.
I'm very excited.
Madeleine Cleary (16:40):
We know, Tina, you've, um, you.
I've left a few in my time,
and Tina always, um, does her voice memos
when she's in the car driving.
So we always hear the Exactly,
Tina Strachan (16:51):
yes.
I love that actually, becauseI'm, I'm constantly driving.
Does I feel like I'm constantlydriving.
Uh, well they were greatNatasha.
I agree.
They were some of the bestquotes of the year.
I think.
So.
Tina,
Madeleine Cleary (17:05):
what about you?
What's your.
Your favorite moment in this,um, year's podcast.
Tina Strachan (17:12):
Now I do have to say I found it really hard and
you girls maybe choose just one,and it was very hard.
So, but I, I decided to go withone.
Um, I have a couple of honorablementions that'll go, it'll touch
on just, um, after we chat aboutthis one.
Oh,
Madeleine Cleary (17:26):
give us, give us your honorable mentions.
No, I'm gonna do themafterwards.
I think
Tina Strachan (17:28):
they flow really well into, into yours,
Madeleine, but, um.
So this one is from episode 12of the Book Deal Podcast, where
I interviewed CatherineCollette, and lots of people
will know.
Catherine Collette, um, podcasthost for the first time podcast,
and the next step.
Podcast and, um, multi publishedauthor as well.
(17:53):
Now she does coaching, um, like,uh, author coaching and offers a
whole heap of a whole heap ofsort of helpful, um, workshops
and programs for authors.
So, um, and I love her poststhat she does on Instagram.
Sometimes they're just soperfectly timed and you, you
read her words and you go,that's exactly what I was
feeling today.
(18:14):
And it's, she's just really rawand honest about, um.
Publishing and authoring andwriting, and sometimes it's
practical, sometimes it's, youknow, how to think, um, getting
your mind in the right spot,things like that.
Um, so this one we, I thoughtwas actually probably quite
relevant to.
Recently discussions that we'vehad recently, it's sort of
(18:35):
almost back to our lastdiscussion, Madeleine, where we
were chatting about authordisappointment and sometimes
that relates to sales
of your
book when you get your sales through, because you
look at that as a measure ofwhether you've been successful
or not, right?
Madeleine Cleary (18:50):
Mm.
Should I play the quote?
Yes, please.
Katherine Collette (18:53):
To write better books and, and, you know,
focus on the things that you cancontrol.
Sales is not a thing that youhave any control over.
Mm-hmm.
Um.
But the measure of success thatsales is, sales is a single
measure of success and it's onethat you have no control over.
I think it's a really crudemeasure of success and there
(19:15):
needs to be much, um, a muchmore nuanced, I suppose, way of
thinking about, um, how a bookfairs in the world.
I think the emphasis on sales Isee most in the debut author
moment.
It feels very parcel fail fordebut authors.
I, I, I think that really fadesand I think as you get an author
(19:39):
further down the line, of courseeveryone wants every single book
they write to be a bestsellerand universally AOR and all of
those things.
But down the line people don'ttalk about sales so much.
Whereas the debut experience,people think if this does not
sell well, my career is over.
Tina Strachan (19:56):
Mm.
Good one just summed it upperfectly, didn't it?
Mm.
It's very much, you know, a vibethat we're feeling at the
moment.
I mean, we, it's, you know,Catherine's talking about, um,
debut authors and we werechatting about, I guess just how
to navigate that debut time.
And I asked her for advice on,you know.
For us as debuts and alleverybody else in the debut
crew, what's to be expected?
(20:16):
And this is such a big thing,right?
Once the glow of the debutexperience is over, you know,
you've seen your book on theshelf and you've had your launch
and then, you know, I guessreality, uh, sets in when it
comes to getting sales figuresand, um, yeah, can, can
sometimes be a little bit, um,unexpected for authors.
(20:41):
I think, uh, very much.
Yeah, I totally agree withCatherine.
And, you know, don't, a lot ofpeople do think, you know, if it
doesn't sell well then mycareer's over or, or take it to
heart.
But it isn't just sales thatdetermines, um, if you're going
to be successful or not, or evenif that book is going to be
(21:03):
successful or not, andespecially not in your debut
year.
Madeleine Cleary (21:06):
I have so many thoughts about this, and I
think, um, yeah, of course salesis just one measure.
I mean, everybody wants to be abestseller, of course.
Um, and your publisher wants youto sell as well as you can.
Um, I think though, if you'vedeveloped a really strong and
good relationship with yourpublisher, sales becomes less of
a thing because the publishersees all the investment they've
(21:29):
put into you, and it has been ahuge time investment on their
part.
An effort and energy to get yourfirst book out if it doesn't do
so well.
But if you've got that solidbacking from your publisher, you
know, they see you as a careerauthor.
And I think that's thedifference, isn't it?
Because we've seen examples inthe past of where authors have
struck out on their second ortheir third book.
(21:50):
Um, but I do think there is alittle, a little bit of, um, um,
perhaps.
Energy around the debuts, likeyou only debut once.
And so publishers see, you seethis as a great opportunity to
see what happens.
And sometimes you get, and we'vebeen talking about this,
sometimes you get the backing,the financial backing, including
(22:13):
in marketing and publicity, um,that publisher might give.
And some books just don't havethat.
Much of that.
And that's a decision that'smade by the publisher.
Again, it's completely out ofyour control.
Um, and so that can have amassive influence in sales too,
and that's completely outside ofyour control.
Natasha Rai (22:30):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
But you know on that as well,and I know we've been talking
about this, the three of us, I.
There's also a difference Ithink, between a bigger
publisher, like say the Big Fiveto a mid or to a small
publisher, and maybe, I don'tknow this is true, it's just an
impression.
Maybe a smaller publisher withfewer titles every year is more
(22:51):
likely to take a risk as in ortake a chance on you.
And help you build that careerbecause they aren't looking, as
you said on that one book, doinga certain set, you know, cer
certain way in the market.
So there's that.
And the other thing as well,just from my own experience,
even if you don't get the full.
You know, fireworks andeverything thrown at your book.
(23:15):
The nothing's stopping you fromgoing out there and pitching
yourself to places.
And I think as long as you arehaving those conversations with
your publicist and they knowwhat you want to do, like, it's
not like if, if they don't puteverything they have behind your
book, it's gonna sink.
Like you have no right.
You definitely have agency overthat part.
(23:35):
You can definitely go out thereand, and do what you can and
what you feel comfortable with.
Madeleine Cleary (23:40):
Because I think what that big, I suppose
it's not, it's less, um,publicity and more marketing, at
least this is what I've observedover the last sort of seven
months watching all of ourdebuts launch.
Um, what marketing does, youknow, things like getting you
better reading campaigns andgood reading campaigns and
putting you on net galley.
(24:01):
And so, because that's all acost to the publisher, um,
having, you know, like gift withpurchase.
Things like that.
Like these are all costlythings, um, that gives you that
immediate push out.
Um, and obviously having stockin stores, but in the end, if
you haven't written a good book,you'll get that immediate sales.
(24:23):
But the word of mouth is notgoing to happen.
And in the end it is word ofmouth that sells books.
Natasha Rai (24:28):
Exactly.
Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan (24:30):
I feel like that was.
Uh, because I've had thisconversation, we've been having
this conversation for a littlewhile, and I've definitely had
conversations around this withother authors, like, how, but
how did that debut just do sowell say like some, some, you
know, internationallybestselling, and it just, I just
think, how is, how is that done?
(24:51):
And, and.
You know, we go around, we seemto just go around in circles and
keep coming up with theories asto why.
But what I think what we alwayscome back to is, well, the book
has to be solid and has to be agood book and with longevity,
and that's like even if it is,you know, a bestseller straight
(25:14):
outta the gates, it's thatlongevity that you're actually
after.
You know, what good is it, youknow, having all these sales
straight out the gates becausePublish publicity's pushed it,
but it's only short-lived and itdoesn't get reprinted and you
know, I don't know, it just sortof fades away.
You want something that's gonnabe around for a while and people
are gonna talk about for a whileand, um, want more from you.
(25:36):
You know, I think most peoplewanna write more than one book,
don't they?
Once they get published.
For sure.
So, sure.
Yeah.
It's that coming back to havinga strong book and longevity.
Madeleine Cleary (25:45):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, great.
Billie Rooney (25:52):
Hi, I'm Billie Rooney and my picture book
Creature Corridors was publishedthis year by C-S-I-R-O
publishing with warm and vibrantillustrations by Anke Noack.
This book is for all children,especially those who love
animals and who wanna find outmore about how we can protect
Australia's amazing wildlife ina world where human development
is taking over the spaces wherewild creatures live.
(26:15):
How can we make sure theseanimals still have spaces to
move about safely, and what canwe do to help?
This is a book about wildlifecorridors, those safe pathways
that animals need when they goout searching for food or
shelter.
These can look like a simple rowof trees or a bridge over a
highway.
What they have in common is thatthey connect habitats rather
(26:36):
than divide them from thekangaroo to the platypus, from
small birds to the giant,Cassie.
And from Christmas Island crabsto the lizards who live in our
own backyards.
This book provides a hopefulmessage about how we can all
play a part in looking after ourenvironment.
Creature Corridors is inspiredby my love for nature and the
outdoors.
(26:56):
It is a wish for a world whereanimals and humans can thrive
together on this beautiful andprecious planet.
Thank you to Tina and Madeleinefor a chance to share this book
with you on the book Dealpodcast.
Madeleine Cleary (27:11):
I think every type of book is different.
Like, um, obviously the kid Litspace, Tina is very different
from adult.
Mm-hmm.
In terms of what the publisher'sgonna do, literary fiction's
gonna be.
Different to your commercialrural crime, you know, Outback
noir book.
Yeah.
Um, and so every book is treateddifferently and that's, I
suppose, what publishers have toweigh up when they're looking at
(27:34):
budgets and all sorts of things,because.
I mean, we all know this.
There is, so, there are so manybooks that are published each
year.
There's a huge breadth.
Um, and sometimes a book thatdoesn't have that much marketing
behind it will do reallyspectacularly well.
And that's fantastic foreverybody.
(27:55):
Um, and sometimes the ones thatdo get all the marketing behind
it.
Don't do well, so it is can kindof, a bit of a gamble as well.
Sometimes.
It's not necessarily one equalstherefore success.
So
Tina Strachan (28:07):
exactly.
Natasha Rai (28:08):
Mm mm
Madeleine Cleary (28:09):
Yeah.
Tina Strachan (28:09):
Just write a good strong book that you love and
like go along for the ride, Ithink.
And I dunno, I think that's thebest way to tackle it.
Madeleine Cleary (28:19):
That's right.
And I think the, the, um, havingbookseller support too, I think
is really crucial for getting tothat bestseller level that
starts with, you know, gettingyour book in stores and out the
front, which is really hard.
So that's where the sales comesales team comes into it.
But, um, you know.
I, I'm, my heart is filled withjoy.
(28:41):
When I have booksellers say tome, oh, I've been, um, hand
selling this just to, to, um,customers and there is nothing
better than, um, hand sellingfor an author.
You know, because, um, once yourbook.
Hits after two months release,it goes to the shelf.
It's not upfront anymore, soyour book's gonna sit on the
(29:03):
shelf, probably spy out, notface out.
So have a books seller reach foryour book and put that into the
hands of a customer.
That's the most important thing.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
How you craft thoserelationships with books
sellers.
Well, that's also in yourcontrol, I think.
Mm.
Tina Strachan (29:17):
And join a debut crew.
'cause they are very good atgoing into bookshops and turning
your book face cover outwhenever they're in there,
regardless of how long it's beenout for.
So it's just like your
Madeleine Cleary (29:27):
little street team hand selling.
I literally hand, hand handheld.
I've hand sold both your books,actually.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
There you go.
Not even books seller.
Oh, it's a, it's a tough one.
That's a tough conversation tohave, but I think it's important
particularly for, I suppose, Debwriters for next year to
consider as well.
Um, and it's probably somethingI didn't really think about
(29:49):
coming into this year that youwill start to see some people
having different treatmentacross the book.
And I think being aware of thatearly on is good because it
reduces the amount of, huh, whyis this person getting this?
And, and the difference, Isuppose, in it.
Yeah, and maybe it's that we'retalking about it and revealing
the secrets of the publishingindustry, but I think it's
(30:12):
pretty obvious though.
Natasha Rai (30:13):
But also I think it comes back to managing
expectations.
You know, if, if you seesomebody else getting a lot of
marketing budget and you getexcited'cause you think that's
how, what the norm is.
Mm-hmm.
That goes straight back to thatidea of disappointment.
So.
The only, the best way to do itis to talk to your publisher and
find out what the plan is foryour book, and then find the
(30:33):
gaps that you can fill.
Madeleine Cleary (30:35):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
And often the amount of moneythat is spent on those books, it
might also come down to theadvance that they've put aside
for that book.
And, you know, if, if it's ahigh advance, then they wanna,
the publisher wants to try andmake sure that they're getting
their money.
Back as much as they can aswell.
Mm-hmm.
So there is a very practicalbusiness side that is less about
the quality of the book and youas an author, and perhaps more
(30:58):
from a business perspective too.
Exactly.
Natasha Rai (31:00):
Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary (31:01):
Important to know.
Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan (31:03):
It is important to make those relationships,
like you said, with BooksellersMadeleine, I was always one who
was like, I don't know how to dothat.
Like, how do I, I don't just,you know, go into bookstores and
I'll buy books.
No one's really.
Um, yeah, I mean, I livesomewhere where we don't have
lots of small independenceeither, so, um.
I've always found it quitedifficult going to the big ones
and everyone's flat out and youjust don't have a second to even
(31:25):
chat to them.
So I always found thatinteresting.
And, um, I think we're going totry and get a bookseller on in a
few weeks who might be able tohelp and give us some advice on,
for debuts on how to best go inthere, how to approach, don't go
in on a Monday morning, I'veheard no.
Or lunchtime.
Or a Saturday or a Sunday, butyeah,
Madeleine Cleary (31:45):
but even if you do,'cause I have done that
before and I'm just like, I'msorry, it's Saturday.
And they're like, no, no, no,we're so happy you're here.
So booksellers are generallylovely people, but yes, we will
Oh yeah, ask the officialbookseller the appropriate
protocols.
Tina Strachan (32:00):
That was great.
That was a great, uh, quote,great chat and great quote from
Catherine.
So I did, like I said, I hadlots that I couldn't choose.
Between though.
But I did and I chose Catherine.
I thought that was a good one.
But I have two honorablementions and I'm actually gonna
read them out and I want youladies to have a guess who the
author is.
Okay?
I said this quote, okay.
Madeleine Cleary (32:21):
Testing our knowledge.
It's like trivia book your,okay.
Tina Strachan (32:24):
I love trivia.
I do trivia.
All my book launches for anybodywho is coming 20 any in the
next.
Quick brown fox on the 2nd ofAugust.
August, if you'd like to come.
There will be wildlife themedtrivia.
Okay.
But for now, all right.
It was just this surreal fairytale night and I
was on a high for the rest ofthe day, so I got home, took my
(32:46):
laxative and logged on for workat 8:00 AM the next day.
Next day.
Anyone wanna have a guess?
Natasha Rai (32:53):
Um, was it Madeleine Cleary?
Well done Natasha.
Yeah, I know.
Look, it's hard to choose whichone of the poo quotes I should
have pulled out for Madeleine.
'cause we do.
You know, we talk about tummytroubles sometimes on the pod.
Madeleine Cleary (33:10):
When you said that, what Madeleine does
anyway, you know when I spokeabout cringe, like looking back
on episodes and cringing all theepisodes where I talked about
taking laxatives and oh my gosh,I love that.
Now, which episode was thatfrom?
Uh, episode 22.
Everybody.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I have another one.
That's when I had the author andAOL fairytale night.
Tina Strachan (33:32):
Mm.
Oh, didn't have to take likeSteve.
Yeah.
Yeah.
A great story.
A great story.
Um, now this is one from a veryrecent episode, actually, which
just, I just laughed when I,when I heard it.
And I'm, I, sorry.
I'm gonna use this for, fortoday.
Okay.
Ladies, who is this author?
It's a short one.
Ready?
I was titillated.
(33:54):
Oh,
Madeleine Cleary (33:54):
Natasha.
Oh my God.
Oh my God.
I laughed.
I laughed at that episode withHolly.
Ow so much.
You were just like, I reallyloved the sex, Holly.
I just,
Natasha Rai (34:07):
I think I was a bit overenthusiastic about how much
I loved the sex.
Madeleine Cleary (34:10):
Well, you were titillated.
I think,'cause I think the quotewas, was like, Holly was like,
oh, you know, I, it wasn't, myintent wasn't to just tate, you
know, readers.
It was meant to be.
And you're like, I was TATed.
Well, that was TATed.
So it worked.
Holly, good work.
I was, I actually was on my walkup the thous, like up the
(34:30):
mountains and um, I was like,panting.
And then that came in my earsand I just like burst out
laughing.
Um, Natasha's like crying withlaughter, by the way, everybody,
she can't.
Natasha Rai (34:43):
Oh my God, I never knew that's why I was gonna come
back to haunt me.
Well, you should know by now, asdoes, uh, some of our other
guests that we've had on the podthat we do like to pull quotes
out.
Um,
Tina Strachan (2) (34:56):
um, which leads me to Madeleine's that
shouldn't just be in the quoteof this week actually, just
titillated.
I thought about actually doing apost.
I was titillated doing likelittle posts.
Madeleine Cleary (35:09):
Well, Tina, I think next episode we're gonna
have to pull out one of yourquotes, I reckon, because you,
you've gotten both us back, so.
Yeah, exactly.
They're my favorite.
You told me to choose.
It was hard.
Oh, that's good.
Okay, well I'm just gonna playthis quote'cause, um.
Well, you both know which oneit's gonna be, and I, I think we
(35:30):
kind of have to choose this one.
Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan (2) (35:33):
It just
Madeleine Cleary (35:33):
set our socials a fire, a light.
It just, um, completely changedour serious podcast into
something a little bit wild.
All right.
I'm just gonna play it.
Love.
Samuel Bernard (35:46):
So horror could, could well be on its way back.
Um, and actually this year'sBrisbane Writers Festival, I was
on a panel called, uh, whatPublishers Want, and I was asked
this question.
Um, and I kind of startedtalking about how the pendulum,
the pendulum swings away and,and then comes back and that
kind of stuff.
With publishing and post COVID,you know, we really swung away
(36:09):
from.
The dark themes and the really,you know, dark, dark novels in
our society.
And so horror was not goingwell.
Um, you know, cozy crime cameinto its own, had a little, um,
really good purple patch, um,lighthearted fiction humor, all
doing really well.
Um.
But it, yeah, I don't know.
I had this problem with thependulum just going, like being
(36:32):
really rudimentary, backward andforward.
So I kind of compared it togranddad's balls where they just
kinda swing around.
Um, I don't think I'll beinvited back to the pen writers
first after that.
True.
Because like, you know, it, itis not just one side to a net to
the other.
It's all over the shop.
Um, so grandad bowl stuff to, toflo around a little bit.
(36:55):
We'd always invite you back tothe pod though, Samuel.
It's okay.
Madeleine Cleary (36:58):
So for those who don't know, that is, um,
dunno the episode, uh, SamuelBernard.
Um, we have two parts and thisis actually part two.
Um, our episode with literaryagent zeitgeist agency and also
my agent after that as well.
So, um, I did warn Sam, Imessaged him today and said, um,
we're resurrecting granddad'sballs.
(37:20):
Just tell him back.
He's coming back.
I said, do you give mepermission?
He's like, of course.
So it's such
Natasha Rai (37:30):
a good quote.
Madeleine Cleary (37:31):
Mm-hmm.
It's a great quote and.
Tina and I actually watched thevisual.
I think, well actually I think Iremember the visual, but I did
see the video of us and becausePat, my husband, said to me when
I played this earlier today,he's like, why weren't you and
Tina like laughing?
I'm like, no, no, no.
We were laughing, but we had ourhands covering our face, trying
(37:52):
not to just burst out laughing.
As soon as he said granddad'sbulls.
Oh, I've had that quoted back tome so many times from people.
It really has been a highlight.
It's a highlight.
But I guess, you know, in allseriousness it does make sense
because I think if you are, wewere talking about trying to
write to trends and it is hardto predict a trend and write to
(38:14):
a trend, particularly'cause youknow, we all know publishing
takes a few years once you getsigned the contract.
You could be all in the cozycrime and writing cozy crime
because you think that's gonnabe a bestseller, but then it's
diverted to horror, you know, afew years later and you've
missed that trend.
So you've gotta write what youand what, so what I think the
message is, you've, you've gottawrite the things that you love.
Like that's what you should beand what you're passionate
(38:35):
about.
Um, so there was, there was, um,some good solid, um, advice
behind that as well, which Iloved.
But, um.
I did wanna actually talk tooabout, um, um, getting an agent.
'cause I don't think I everrevealed that on the podcast as
well.
Tina Strachan (38:50):
No, I don't think you did.
So yeah, that would be reallygood if you could chat everybody
through'cause that's what a lotof people are, you know, wanting
advice on.
Madeleine Cleary (38:58):
Yes, yes.
And actually at the, when weinterviewed Sam, so this was
last year, I think Samuel, um,Samuel wasn't my agent back
then.
And, um.
We had been chatting for awhile, and so I'd asked him onto
the podcast and, you know, he,we'd sort of talked about what
I've been writing and he hadread a little bit about it.
Um, and yeah, after the podcast,um, I was asking him for some
(39:24):
advice about approaching agents,like looking for an agent.
And I, I actually didn't thinkhe was interested in, in sort
of, you know.
Signing me, but I just sort ofsaid, oh, I'm doing some
pitching sessions with a coupleof agents.
Um, what do you think?
Like, do you have any advice?
And, um, he actually came backto me like, I think it was like
(39:46):
a few hours later and he's like,oh, um, I'll sign you.
And I was like, oh my gosh.
I'm like, really?
I, I was like, are you serious?
'cause I think you sort of justmessaged me and I said, yeah,
yeah.
I'm really keen, I really,really love your writing and
your book.
And, um,'cause I sort of hadn'tdecided whether I was gonna get
an agent or not.
And then, you know, I was like,no, no, I really wanna do it.
(40:07):
And he's like, yeah, absolutely.
I'll sign you up.
Um, but at the time we couldn'tannounce it because, well, and
also he had said, um, you know,after we did the podcast, he's
like, you, you know, I reallythought that, you know, you've
got a lot behind you and you'vegot, you know, you're building a
good profile in the communityand the writing industry.
So he'd sort of watched me dothat over that year.
(40:28):
Um, and that was quiteinteresting because it's not
just about the writing, it'salso about.
Like what you are doing aroundthat too.
Um, and so yeah, I reallyactually have the podcast, I
think to, to thank for, forgetting an agent.
I recognize,
Tina Strachan (40:43):
I'm sure it's your writing, Madeleine, but
yes, the po that's probably, Isuppose probably, but yeah,
that, that's it.
Connection is such a big thing.
Hey, we've had these discussionsbefore about connection and I
think that's how I definitelyhelped me sign as well with my
publisher was making connectionswith her.
Um.
(41:04):
But you don't like, just in caseanybody has listened to episodes
before, you don't need an agentin Australia and you don't need
a podcast.
So, you know, you hear peopletalk about having a platform and
you know, definitely having apodcast gives you a platform.
Um, but prior to that, you know,it's hard like to have.
(41:27):
To gain a platform.
Really.
And I guess unless you canorganically do it, I don't know.
I, I know, I mean, I spent yearswondering how you could ever do
that, but you still don't, youdon't need a platform to either.
It does all come back to thewriting, but did you wanna talk
a little bit about how.
What it's done for you though,having an agent and how it's
helped you?
Madeleine Cleary (41:46):
Yeah, for sure.
So, um, yeah, absolutely you donot need an agent.
Um, I spent a few monthsthinking about whether I should
or not, um, because I've alreadygot such an awesome
relationship.
With my publisher and, um, Ididn't need that.
But what I decided was that I'mlooking for a long-term career
in writing and I really wantedclear strategic advice.
(42:12):
Um, and also that editorialsupport and zeitgeist agency
actually do, they're one of thefew agencies that offer, um,
editorial as well.
Um, just because I've never doneany writing courses or.
Gone to uni to do writing.
I, you know, it's a very organicthing and I think anything you
(42:32):
can to improve your writing andget some good advice about.
Next steps I'd written as well,a contemporary fiction novel.
Um, and, and so it was quitedifferent to my historical
fiction and so I wasn't surewhat to do with that as well.
Um, whether that should be mynext, so that's where an agent
can come in and sort of.
(42:52):
Give you advice about your, yourcareer, um, and what to do.
And so it's funny though,because the timing last year
when Sam signed me withZeitgeist, um, we couldn't
announce it for months becauseI, as soon as he signed me, he
said, oh, I said, by the way,I've applied for the Australian
Fiction Prize.
Um, I've submitted mymanuscript.
I hadn't heard anything at thatstage.
(43:13):
And he, I, but I knew he was ajudge.
And, um, he didn't know I'dapplied.
He hadn't reviewed or seen anyof the manuscripts, and they
don't, they don't receive that.
They only get the shortlistedones.
And so Harper Collins do theshortlisting for that.
So I just wanted to let himknow.
I'm like, Hey, you know, and sohe let them know.
Immediately.
(43:33):
And when he got the shortlist,um, sent to him, so this was
after he'd signed me, my namewas on the shortlist.
And so he was like, oh, this isgonna, people are gonna think
I've, um, you know, if weannounce it, like there's gonna
be conflict of interest.
And he was, you know, veryprofessional and removed himself
from all of that.
You know, the judging of my workand everything.
So, yeah.
(43:54):
By the time we could announceit, five months had gone by and
I'm like, well, I just didn'twant to felt like it.
It's, it's gone.
Felt like it was
Tina Strachan (44:02):
over.
Yeah.
And that's, that's not unusual,is it?
And for, for various reasons.
You're told to sort of just holdYeah.
For a bit.
And you know, people are sittingthere with this awesome
information and you know thatthey just wanna get out.
Yes.
Madeleine Cleary (44:13):
So, but yes, and Sam, like zeitgeist are
amazing and Sam's been fantasticfor, I don't know.
That it was absolutely the rightdecision.
Decision.
Tina Strachan (2) (44:21):
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine Cleary (44:21):
And I, I think, you know, that's helped
me decide the direction as well.
And I'm really keen on historicwriting and historical fiction
and staying with a firm and, andsort of, you know, becoming a,
um, as much as I can, along-term career as, as much as
I, you know, will continue tobe, um, in that sort of space.
So, um, and it's just, I guessit is also nice to have someone
(44:43):
in your corner who you know isin your corner.
Um, that's been the otherbenefit.
Having said all that, you do notneed an agent.
You can also get a coach,Catherine Collette's coaches.
Mm.
I've actually just started alittle coaching thing as well.
Um, uh, yeah, I'm, I haven'tadvertised it.
I'm just taking, like, I've gota few clients now, um, who are
just doing very select stuff,but, um, you know, because I
(45:06):
think coaching, it is helpful tohave someone in your corner.
So, and I think there will be afew debut rider who, um, might
be looking at doing somecoaching as well for next year's
crew.
Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan (45:19):
Yeah, I think that's really important.
'cause you do feel a little biton your own, don't you?
Yes.
I don't have an agent, Tash.
And Tash doesn't have an agenteither?
No, I don't have an agent.
No.
No.
And you, um.
Do sometimes it's nice, it'snice to, you know, be able to
just chat straight to yourpublishers, which you can do
anyway when you still have anagent.
But you know, there are, theydeal with other things with your
(45:39):
publisher, but, um, it's, yeah,sometimes, like you just said
with your career.
You know, the sort of thatbigger picture stuff, not just
your next deal.
Mm-hmm.
Like your bigger picture stuff.
It's nice to have someone whoknows the industry, knows what's
happening and can guide on that.
Um, yeah, so I see definitebenefits in that as well.
Madeleine Cleary (45:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's a good, it's a decisionthat everyone should think about
because of course, you know,there is a cost element too.
Like your agent doesn't work forfree, they take 15%.
Um, which is also really usefulto know when you're thinking
about it.
But, um, I think if you are anemerging writer and looking to
submit, it is worthwhile testingwaters with a few agents to see
(46:20):
their level of interest, becauseit's better, I think to approach
agents first.
And if you're getting all nos,then perhaps it gives you a bit
of.
You know, a suggestion, that'swhen you get a
Tina Strachan (46:30):
coach to help you with your practical writing.
Madeleine Cleary (46:33):
That's
Tina Strachan (46:33):
right.
Happy to coach anyone on how tostory grid their work.
Actually, I can story, I'll signup to that.
Tina, into, into an Excelspreadsheet.
Oh, Madeleine, guys.
Madeleine's coming around to thespreadsheet.
Oh, Madeleine, you can't,there's an episode in this.
Please just let me do it.
Uh, um, and do it for free.
(46:57):
Um, yes.
So that's where a coach doescome in as well.
You know, and I just wanted tosay, uh, before we wrap it up as
well, that, um, ways of gettingin front of agents can be just
as hard as it can be, just ashard to get in front of an agent
as can to a publisher, but takeadvantage of, um, pitch sessions
and, um, you know, conferencesand events that offer
(47:20):
assessments.
A great way of getting your workin front of, um, agents and
publishers, and you may have topay, but, um, some really good
things can come out of that.
It's getting in front of themand they're reading it, and
that's, that's, that's the firststep everyone.
Madeleine Cleary (47:36):
Exactly.
And that feedback is sovaluable.
And, um, yeah.
As particularly like the CYA oryou'll have to wait another year
for CYAI think after this comesup.
We'll, yeah, next week, uh, thisweekend is the actual
conference, so Right.
Perfect.
But the a SA do their quarterlypitch session sessions as well,
so, um, do, do sign up to that.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
(47:57):
Oh well, grand's balls, pendulumspins, pen's, balls.
Yep.
Tina Strachan (48:01):
Awesome.
Very titillating.
Madeleine,
Tina Strachan (2) (48:05):
is it Grand's balls?
Titillating.
Natasha Rai (48:09):
I'm not getting involved in this bit,
Madeleine Cleary (48:14):
Natasha, by this conversation.
Natasha Rai (48:18):
Actually, no, not with granddad's balls.
No, not
now.
Not anymore.
Oh.
Anyway, it was so lovely to chatto you ladies altogether
Tina Strachan (48:27):
and um, congratulations on one year of
the book Deal podcast.
Natasha Rai (48:31):
Yes.
Congratulations.
You two set up an amazingpodcast that're very proud.
Madeleine Cleary (48:35):
It's all Tina.
Tina is, that's not.
Has been at the, the helm ofthis ship, um, guiding us
through the, the crazy waters.
So thank you, Tina.
All your podcast researchinformation, voice memos, ideas,
suggestions, it's amazing.
Tina Strachan (48:50):
Team effort, ladies, um, and look forward to
another wonderful year ofpodcasting and interviewing.
It's so fun, isn't it Fun.
So fun.
Madeleine Cleary (48:59):
And if you want story grid coaching, go to
Tina.
Uh yep.
DM me Are up.
Mm-hmm.
Bye bye.
Tina Strachan (3) (49:12):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new EPS drop and to keep
up to date with what the pod isdoing.
You can also find us onInstagram.
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will
discover the inspiring stories,the authors behind your favorite
books.
Tina Strachan (00:15):
No matter what sage of writing you are at,
we've got you covered.
I'm Tina
Madeleine Cleary (00:19):
Strachan.
And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one
deal at a time.
The book Deal podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners, the land and waters,which it's recorded on.
And pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging.
Tina Strachan (00:42):
Welcome everybody to this very special episode of
the Book Deal podcast.
It is our one year anniversary.
Woohoo.
There's all three of us here.
Uh, myself, Tina Strachan, andMadeleine Cleary.
And Natasha, Rai?
Yay.
And we're all here to have avery special episode to
(01:05):
celebrate one year off the pod.
Madeleine Cleary (01:08):
We're having a party on a Monday night and I've
got my cup of tea.
Yeah,
Tina Strachan (01:11):
you've
Natasha Rai (01:12):
got tea.
Madeleine Cleary (01:12):
Hopefully someone has wine.
Natasha Rai (01:14):
At least one of us.
Have you
Madeleine Cleary (01:14):
got Tash?
Natasha Rai (01:15):
I've got water.
Sorry.
Oh man.
I know.
Look,
I tried.
I even have a non-alcoholicmargarita.
Maybe put salt
Tina Strachan (01:25):
on the rim and everything just to make it feel
a little bit more special.
We were gonna do, do like
Madeleine Cleary (01:29):
a little, we were gonna do like a little
champagne, weren't we?
We were.
Do that next.
Tina Strachan (01:34):
Alright.
Yeah, yeah.
To do.
We'll say it before in personwhen we do an in person one.
Um, oh, so this is so special.
I can't believe it's been a yearalready.
So we're super excited and wethought.
What we might do to celebrate isto have a little reminisce over
the year that has been, um,we've had lots of amazing guests
(01:56):
on the pod and lots of amazingdiscussions, and we wanted to
pull out, each of us has chosensome of our favorite, um, I
guess quotes or interviews andguests that's we've, that we've
had.
Um, but first I just wanna saythank you.
To Madeleine and Natasha forbeing incredible co-hosts on the
(02:18):
book deal podcast.
Um, couldn't do it, couldn'thave done it without you.
Um, it's been so super fun andI've, I feel very privileged to
have been able to spend the lastyear getting to know you girls
and just chatting away.
And it's still a bit, um, itstill blows me away that people
actually listen and I often justlove just chatting to you
(02:38):
ladies.
Anyway, so it's just kind ofcool that we record it and
people get to listen to it aswell.
Madeleine Cleary (02:43):
I agree meeting this has been so, so
much fun.
And um, I'll never forget, and Ithink Natasha was on the call as
well, when you announced to ourdebut crew we're all on a zoom
that you were going to start apodcast.
And I remember feeling soincredibly jealous.
I was like, ah, I do a podcastas well.
Uh, so I think I messaged youthat night and said, I think it
(03:06):
was about three seconds later.
Would you accept a tag along?
And Natasha, you have
Natasha Rai (03:13):
a funny and interesting story about that
too, don't you?
Yeah.
It's so funny because, and Ijust wanna say before I tell
you, I'm so grateful that I'm a,because I'm a recent addition to
the team, so thank you.
Having not that recent now.
Not that recent now.
Yeah, you're right.
But it was so funny'cause whenMadeleine Manu asked me if I
would consider kind of hostingmaybe one episode a month, I was
like, yes.
Because literally that nightwhen Tina, you said you were
(03:35):
gonna host a podcast, I waslike, oh my God, I should get in
touch with her.
And then I did it'cause I was asper usual.
Scared and shy, and then you twoannounced it and I'm like,
dammit, I could have done it.
I shoulda have done it.
But anyway, here, I'm now hereYou're, and you took
Madeleine Cleary (03:50):
that a secret as well, like we're obviously
good friends.
You never told me that until Isaid, would you like to come?
I know.
Well, because it felt
Natasha Rai (03:57):
a bit shish to be like, I wanted to do that.
So.
Madeleine Cleary (04:03):
Well, it all ended in the right thing.
I think the three of us.
It's been so, so much fun.
I think that's been the joy andthe highlight for me in the last
couple of years in getting toknow the industry is this
podcast.
And, and I think about it aswell.
In the last year, we've all,we've, between the three of us,
we've published four books inthat time as well.
Mm-hmm.
So we've also started a podcastduring probably some of the
(04:24):
busiest times of our lives too.
That's right.
Um, and I.
Cringe now to think and lookback on some of our early
episodes.
Um, and wonder, well, I haven'tlistened back, but I, I'm just
imagining if I think I'm gonnacringe now, what would it be
like in sort of three to fouryears when we listen back on all
our anxieties and concerns andthoughts?
Natasha Rai (04:45):
No, I think that those are all actually.
Beautiful reminders of where wewere or are in our journey.
Because you know, like I wasthinking about this the other
day.
I was having a chat to a friendand I was talking about, you
know, worrying about my secondmanuscript, et cetera, and they
were like, did you just hearwhat you just said?
And I'm like, I know, two yearsago I was so worried about
(05:07):
getting published full stop.
And here I am going, oh, youknow, what's gonna happen with
my second one and when should Isubmit?
And it's just.
It's so interesting and excitinghow things move on and how our,
maybe not worries, but focuschanges.
So I think those early episodes,if you listen back to them,
they're just gonna be beautifulreminders of where you were,
(05:28):
right?
Tina Strachan (05:29):
Mm-hmm.
And that's why it's so, so niceto be.
Have the whole debut crew andwe've still got six months left
right.
Or five months left of the yearwhere we get to celebrate the
releases of all the incredibledebut crews books that are
coming out.
Yeah, for sure.
Um, yeah, so that's been anotherreal.
Real benefit to be able tosupport the debut crew this year
(05:50):
as well.
And we hope to keep doing it,don't we?
We just, with every debut crewthat comes past, so hopefully
debut crew 2026, we can, we canroll on with the debut
spotlights, but
Madeleine Cleary (06:01):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Tina Strachan (06:03):
Get in contact.
Madeleine Cleary (06:05):
Yes, that's right.
Sure.
That's never too early.
I'm sure there'll be lots ofERs.
We, um, actually our Melbourne2025 day boot crew is catching
up with the 2026 day boot crewin Melbourne next.
Oh.
Wow.
Natasha's looking at me.
Like, what?
I'm so jealous.
Tina Strachan (06:22):
That's fomo.
Big time.
Madeleine Cleary (06:24):
Yeah, me too.
Yeah, we're ex It's exciting.
So, um, Leanna Shaw, I metLeanna at an event I did with
Anne Freeman and Leanna's thedebrief for next year.
And we we're just chatting andwe sort of thought, oh, it might
be a nice idea now to actuallytalk now before things start
getting really, really hectic.
Um, and, you know, if we, ifthere's any advice that we can
impart, then of course.
Take that.
(06:44):
Um, but I think the crew, fromthe sounds of it, everyone I've
spoken to for next year,they're, they're really
brilliant and I'm so excited fornext year.
But we still have five monthsleft of this year.
Yes.
So we've got lots of new, lotsmore exciting titles to look
forward to.
Mm-hmm.
It'll
Tina Strachan (07:00):
never get old, that feeling will of, of the
debut.
Madeleine Cleary (07:03):
No, that's right.
And then Tina, I think afteryour third book comes out this
year, you can probably say youare no longer a debut author.
Yeah.
Tina Strachan (07:12):
Probably three books in.
That's sad, isn't it?
Alrighty.
Well, we, um, I'm excited to goand revisit these interviews and
quotes some of our favoritequotes, um, from the year that
was, and who wants to go first?
Hmm?
Madeleine Cleary (07:31):
What should be your first team?
Natasha.
Oh, Natasha.
Oh, Natasha.
Oh gosh.
Well you've got two Natasha, somaybe you should Yeah, that's
what I was thinking.
Natasha Rai (07:37):
Okay, I'll go first.
So, um, I've picked these twointerviews or these two guests
for different reasons.
So the first person I wasthinking about is, um, Zaheda
Gaheni She is the author ofPomegranate and Fig and her date
that came out, uh, in 2023.
So the reason I really love thatinterview, uh, was because she
(08:00):
so generously gave so manybeautiful.
Tips around writing practice andthe one that blew my mind, even
though everyone else seems toalready do it, is um, her idea
of setting intention for eachtime you sit down.
So even if you decide thatyou're going to use your writing
time to research, it doesn'tfeel like.
(08:21):
You've wasted time or that youhaven't written anything,
because that was the intentionand there was just some, it
sounds so simple, but there wasjust something so good about
that, that it actually justchanged my writing practice.
Mm-hmm.
Um, because I now sit down andhave an intention and if the
intention is to yeah, researchor to read, read some, to do
some reading in relation to whatI'm working on, it still feels
(08:45):
like progress.
So that's what I really liked.
It's get Chuck,
Madeleine Cleary (08:48):
don't you, when you are not.
Progressing word count where youthink, yes, yes.
Well, I'm not progressinganything and I'm failing and I'm
getting behind and stuck.
But really it's even, even ifyou're not on your laptop, even
if it's just deciding to takehalf an hour to go for a walk
and just think about the book.
Exactly.
Natasha Rai (09:06):
It do writing.
Yeah.
And word count is not the onlymeasure.
Mm-hmm.
And, and from there, you knowthis idea that if you write your
a writer, there's no.
There's no test or something youhave to pass to qualify as a
writer.
Zaheda Ghani (09:21):
Well, should I play the quote?
Natasha Rai (09:23):
Yes, please.
Zaheda Ghani (09:24):
There isn't really a criteria for whether you are a
writer or not, that kind of, um,wanting to pass a gate or
earning it as a right is not athing.
If we are writing, becausethat's where we like to have our
creative outlet, then we are awriter.
(09:46):
It doesn't matter beyond that.
Natasha Rai (09:48):
I like that.
Zaheda Ghani (09:49):
Yeah, perfect.
Natasha Rai (09:50):
Exactly, because you know, even, um, meeting
people who are writing or youknow what we all did, writing in
secret maybe, or writing andloving it, but not being able to
talk about it, it just makes mesad.
So that just, it's a beautifulmessage.
If you're right, you're awriter.
Madeleine Cleary (10:07):
Yeah.
I think you had to get overcomethe shyness then too.
Mm-hmm.
When you are before the gate,the so-called gate.
Yes, exactly.
Tina Strachan (10:16):
Yeah.
What is that about?
I don't know what that's about,but that was definitely me too.
So, and I, I do wish that Ididn't do that.
'cause I feel like just allthose years that I missed out on
making connections, like I don'tthink I would've got published
any sooner.
'cause I still would've had todo the.
Years of writing and everything,but I would've made connections,
um, sooner, just missed out onthat community a little bit
sooner.
And, you know, maybe I actuallywould've got published a bit
(10:38):
sooner because I would've spentmore time.
And because I would'verecognized that, Hey, you can
actually do this.
Why are you doing it in secret?
Actually, take the time now.
Put effort in now maybe.
So anyone who's listening, whois writing in secret, get out
there and get into thecommunity.
It's just.
Yeah, a step, a step forward.
Hey.
Mm-hmm.
So, Taj, but you had a secondone, didn't you?
(10:59):
You had two quotes'cause youfound it
Natasha Rai (11:01):
hard to choose.
Yeah, I did find it hard tochoose.
Um, so my second interview guestis Shankari Chandran, the Miles
Franklin winner.
Um, and so the, her book thatwon the Miles Franklin Award's,
chai Time at Cinnamon Gardens,so the reason I loved her words,
um, in that interview is that.
To have somebody of that, like,to have that kind of success.
(11:23):
'cause she's had five books out,I think here it's five.
And to have won such a majorliterary prize.
'cause in the interview shetalks about how at one point she
had given up, she'd given up onthe idea of publication, but
what she never gave up on waswriting.
Um, and I love this idea thatshe says that she writes her
everything, her feelings intoit.
(11:44):
She, she writes everything she'sexperiencing because.
It resonated with me.
'cause I feel I do that in mycharacters.
Like I write things that I'mexperiencing in the world and I
think a lot of writers do that.
You know, I heard HarleyScribner say when she was asked
about is she is one of thecharacters her, and she's like,
you know, aren't we all in allof our characters?
So
that
(12:05):
just spoke to me more about, you know, what we as
writers put into our workregardless of publication.
So I just really loved the wayshe talks about what she puts
into her writing.
Madeleine Cleary (12:15):
It also astounded me that, um.
She felt like back, sort of, itwas like 10 years ago, she had
to change a character that the,um, intern Oh yes.
A white character and that, andthen, and then after, you know,
all those years of having thoserejections and um, just c try
time came out of that.
(12:36):
Well, I don't.
Okay.
I don't think this is gonna getpublished.
I don't, I'm just gonna writewhat I wanna write for my
family.
Mm.
And then that becomes, you know, this highly
acclaimed piece of work.
That's one miles Frank.
Exactly.
Natasha Rai (12:49):
And in so many ways, she's, you know, she's the
trailblazer of her people likeme.
'cause now I've written a bookwith a person of color as the
main character and all, everyonemainly in it.
And no one.
Thought anything weird about itor no one said, oh, this is
weird that there's, you know, abrown person in it.
So she's a trailblazer.
Madeleine Cleary (13:07):
Mm.
It's, um, well, hopefully infuture Ultimo can, well, they've
got the rights now.
They can go and retract and, andhave it the way it should have
always been.
Exactly.
Such an interesting episode.
I love that.
And, and it was a fantasticinterview, Natasha.
Natasha Rai (13:23):
Thank you.
Yeah, I read it.
I was having her on.
Madeleine Cleary (13:25):
Everyone just take notes, like just, I think
the whole episode.
Just take notes.
But this is a great, great quotehere.
Okay.
So if you're interested, go backto episode 36 with Shankari.
This is just a little taster.
Shankari Chandran (13:38):
But writing for me is incredibly
therapeutic, and it's reallypart of that process of
maintaining hope.
I write a lot of my anger,frustration, my fears, my
existential anxieties, myconcerns about injustices.
I work through a lot of that inmy writing.
Madeleine Cleary (13:54):
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Love that.
It's very therapeutic.
Mm.
Would you, do you find it therapeutic, Tina
writing?
Tina Strachan (14:05):
Um, yeah, I mean, I don't think I write about, um,
what Karri writes about with,you know, she's obviously coming
and that's very good, sort ofdeep and, um, meaningful sort
of, you know, fodder for her,for her writing.
So I feel for her that's likeshe just said it's therapy,
(14:25):
right.
Um, it's probably more, not, notso much therapy in the same
sense, but.
It's a kind of more therapy asin almost for me, like a
mindfulness or a, you know, justlike exercises.
I think it's just as important,right?
(14:46):
Like it's exercising my mind andmy brain and I mean, it's
something in there that needs tocome out and it's thoroughly
enjoyable.
So I literally have joy from it,so, or get joy from it.
So, um, for me it's important.
For my health.
Right.
Writing to keep myself sane, Ithink.
Yeah.
What
Natasha Rai (15:05):
about you guys?
Tina Strachan (15:06):
It's cheaper
Natasha Rai (15:06):
than therapy, isn't it?
Yeah,
Tina Strachan (15:09):
sure is.
But
Natasha Rai (15:10):
with the right therapist, it's totally worth
the
Tina Strachan (15:12):
cost.
This is true.
This is true.
Writing won't fix everything.
Unfortunately, if only.
Natasha Rai (15:18):
I think, sorry,
Madeleine Cleary (15:19):
I had to, had to insert that.
Oh no.
And for those who don't know,Natasha is counselor therapist.
So are we allowed to say that onair?
Tina Strachan (15:30):
Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary (15:30):
It's not a
Tina Strachan (15:31):
secret.
Not a secret.
Not a secret.
That's why when you listen toher episodes, you just feel so,
you know, relaxed and, and, andwe should say like, you've just
had your own session even.
That's great.
Madeleine Cleary (15:44):
Well, that's the great thing, like we've got
this and for the listeners weshould, we're very sorry that
you're not part of this, but wehave our own WhatsApp.
Um, chat where we send eachother voice memos throughout the
day, pretty much every day.
And it is kind of like your ownpersonal therapy session, like,
(16:07):
because you just voice all your,and I'm just gonna quote Shankar
here.
Anger, frustration, fears,existential anxieties, concerns
about injustices.
Um, and yeah.
Really helpful and I have tosay, yeah, Natasha, when you
respond, it is very calming.
You, you have a very beautifulvoice, I think.
Yes.
Natasha Rai (16:26):
It's very relaxing.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Tina Strachan (16:31):
See, I know, I get excited when I see a little
voicemail, like, you know, Isee, oh, there's a message and I
open it up.
But if it's a voicemail, um, Iget, yeah.
I'm very excited.
Madeleine Cleary (16:40):
We know, Tina, you've, um, you.
I've left a few in my time,
and Tina always, um, does her voice memos
when she's in the car driving.
So we always hear the Exactly,
Tina Strachan (16:51):
yes.
I love that actually, becauseI'm, I'm constantly driving.
Does I feel like I'm constantlydriving.
Uh, well they were greatNatasha.
I agree.
They were some of the bestquotes of the year.
I think.
So.
Tina,
Madeleine Cleary (17:05):
what about you?
What's your.
Your favorite moment in this,um, year's podcast.
Tina Strachan (17:12):
Now I do have to say I found it really hard and
you girls maybe choose just one,and it was very hard.
So, but I, I decided to go withone.
Um, I have a couple of honorablementions that'll go, it'll touch
on just, um, after we chat aboutthis one.
Oh,
Madeleine Cleary (17:26):
give us, give us your honorable mentions.
No, I'm gonna do themafterwards.
I think
Tina Strachan (17:28):
they flow really well into, into yours,
Madeleine, but, um.
So this one is from episode 12of the Book Deal Podcast, where
I interviewed CatherineCollette, and lots of people
will know.
Catherine Collette, um, podcasthost for the first time podcast,
and the next step.
Podcast and, um, multi publishedauthor as well.
(17:53):
Now she does coaching, um, like,uh, author coaching and offers a
whole heap of a whole heap ofsort of helpful, um, workshops
and programs for authors.
So, um, and I love her poststhat she does on Instagram.
Sometimes they're just soperfectly timed and you, you
read her words and you go,that's exactly what I was
feeling today.
(18:14):
And it's, she's just really rawand honest about, um.
Publishing and authoring andwriting, and sometimes it's
practical, sometimes it's, youknow, how to think, um, getting
your mind in the right spot,things like that.
Um, so this one we, I thoughtwas actually probably quite
relevant to.
Recently discussions that we'vehad recently, it's sort of
(18:35):
almost back to our lastdiscussion, Madeleine, where we
were chatting about authordisappointment and sometimes
that relates to sales
of your
book when you get your sales through, because you
look at that as a measure ofwhether you've been successful
or not, right?
Madeleine Cleary (18:50):
Mm.
Should I play the quote?
Yes, please.
Katherine Collette (18:53):
To write better books and, and, you know,
focus on the things that you cancontrol.
Sales is not a thing that youhave any control over.
Mm-hmm.
Um.
But the measure of success thatsales is, sales is a single
measure of success and it's onethat you have no control over.
I think it's a really crudemeasure of success and there
(19:15):
needs to be much, um, a muchmore nuanced, I suppose, way of
thinking about, um, how a bookfairs in the world.
I think the emphasis on sales Isee most in the debut author
moment.
It feels very parcel fail fordebut authors.
I, I, I think that really fadesand I think as you get an author
(19:39):
further down the line, of courseeveryone wants every single book
they write to be a bestsellerand universally AOR and all of
those things.
But down the line people don'ttalk about sales so much.
Whereas the debut experience,people think if this does not
sell well, my career is over.
Tina Strachan (19:56):
Mm.
Good one just summed it upperfectly, didn't it?
Mm.
It's very much, you know, a vibethat we're feeling at the
moment.
I mean, we, it's, you know,Catherine's talking about, um,
debut authors and we werechatting about, I guess just how
to navigate that debut time.
And I asked her for advice on,you know.
For us as debuts and alleverybody else in the debut
crew, what's to be expected?
(20:16):
And this is such a big thing,right?
Once the glow of the debutexperience is over, you know,
you've seen your book on theshelf and you've had your launch
and then, you know, I guessreality, uh, sets in when it
comes to getting sales figuresand, um, yeah, can, can
sometimes be a little bit, um,unexpected for authors.
(20:41):
I think, uh, very much.
Yeah, I totally agree withCatherine.
And, you know, don't, a lot ofpeople do think, you know, if it
doesn't sell well then mycareer's over or, or take it to
heart.
But it isn't just sales thatdetermines, um, if you're going
to be successful or not, or evenif that book is going to be
(21:03):
successful or not, andespecially not in your debut
year.
Madeleine Cleary (21:06):
I have so many thoughts about this, and I
think, um, yeah, of course salesis just one measure.
I mean, everybody wants to be abestseller, of course.
Um, and your publisher wants youto sell as well as you can.
Um, I think though, if you'vedeveloped a really strong and
good relationship with yourpublisher, sales becomes less of
a thing because the publishersees all the investment they've
(21:29):
put into you, and it has been ahuge time investment on their
part.
An effort and energy to get yourfirst book out if it doesn't do
so well.
But if you've got that solidbacking from your publisher, you
know, they see you as a careerauthor.
And I think that's thedifference, isn't it?
Because we've seen examples inthe past of where authors have
struck out on their second ortheir third book.
(21:50):
Um, but I do think there is alittle, a little bit of, um, um,
perhaps.
Energy around the debuts, likeyou only debut once.
And so publishers see, you seethis as a great opportunity to
see what happens.
And sometimes you get, and we'vebeen talking about this,
sometimes you get the backing,the financial backing, including
(22:13):
in marketing and publicity, um,that publisher might give.
And some books just don't havethat.
Much of that.
And that's a decision that'smade by the publisher.
Again, it's completely out ofyour control.
Um, and so that can have amassive influence in sales too,
and that's completely outside ofyour control.
Natasha Rai (22:30):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
But you know on that as well,and I know we've been talking
about this, the three of us, I.
There's also a difference Ithink, between a bigger
publisher, like say the Big Fiveto a mid or to a small
publisher, and maybe, I don'tknow this is true, it's just an
impression.
Maybe a smaller publisher withfewer titles every year is more
(22:51):
likely to take a risk as in ortake a chance on you.
And help you build that careerbecause they aren't looking, as
you said on that one book, doinga certain set, you know, cer
certain way in the market.
So there's that.
And the other thing as well,just from my own experience,
even if you don't get the full.
You know, fireworks andeverything thrown at your book.
(23:15):
The nothing's stopping you fromgoing out there and pitching
yourself to places.
And I think as long as you arehaving those conversations with
your publicist and they knowwhat you want to do, like, it's
not like if, if they don't puteverything they have behind your
book, it's gonna sink.
Like you have no right.
You definitely have agency overthat part.
(23:35):
You can definitely go out thereand, and do what you can and
what you feel comfortable with.
Madeleine Cleary (23:40):
Because I think what that big, I suppose
it's not, it's less, um,publicity and more marketing, at
least this is what I've observedover the last sort of seven
months watching all of ourdebuts launch.
Um, what marketing does, youknow, things like getting you
better reading campaigns andgood reading campaigns and
putting you on net galley.
(24:01):
And so, because that's all acost to the publisher, um,
having, you know, like gift withpurchase.
Things like that.
Like these are all costlythings, um, that gives you that
immediate push out.
Um, and obviously having stockin stores, but in the end, if
you haven't written a good book,you'll get that immediate sales.
(24:23):
But the word of mouth is notgoing to happen.
And in the end it is word ofmouth that sells books.
Natasha Rai (24:28):
Exactly.
Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan (24:30):
I feel like that was.
Uh, because I've had thisconversation, we've been having
this conversation for a littlewhile, and I've definitely had
conversations around this withother authors, like, how, but
how did that debut just do sowell say like some, some, you
know, internationallybestselling, and it just, I just
think, how is, how is that done?
(24:51):
And, and.
You know, we go around, we seemto just go around in circles and
keep coming up with theories asto why.
But what I think what we alwayscome back to is, well, the book
has to be solid and has to be agood book and with longevity,
and that's like even if it is,you know, a bestseller straight
(25:14):
outta the gates, it's thatlongevity that you're actually
after.
You know, what good is it, youknow, having all these sales
straight out the gates becausePublish publicity's pushed it,
but it's only short-lived and itdoesn't get reprinted and you
know, I don't know, it just sortof fades away.
You want something that's gonnabe around for a while and people
are gonna talk about for a whileand, um, want more from you.
(25:36):
You know, I think most peoplewanna write more than one book,
don't they?
Once they get published.
For sure.
So, sure.
Yeah.
It's that coming back to havinga strong book and longevity.
Madeleine Cleary (25:45):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, great.
Billie Rooney (25:52):
Hi, I'm Billie Rooney and my picture book
Creature Corridors was publishedthis year by C-S-I-R-O
publishing with warm and vibrantillustrations by Anke Noack.
This book is for all children,especially those who love
animals and who wanna find outmore about how we can protect
Australia's amazing wildlife ina world where human development
is taking over the spaces wherewild creatures live.
(26:15):
How can we make sure theseanimals still have spaces to
move about safely, and what canwe do to help?
This is a book about wildlifecorridors, those safe pathways
that animals need when they goout searching for food or
shelter.
These can look like a simple rowof trees or a bridge over a
highway.
What they have in common is thatthey connect habitats rather
(26:36):
than divide them from thekangaroo to the platypus, from
small birds to the giant,Cassie.
And from Christmas Island crabsto the lizards who live in our
own backyards.
This book provides a hopefulmessage about how we can all
play a part in looking after ourenvironment.
Creature Corridors is inspiredby my love for nature and the
outdoors.
(26:56):
It is a wish for a world whereanimals and humans can thrive
together on this beautiful andprecious planet.
Thank you to Tina and Madeleinefor a chance to share this book
with you on the book Dealpodcast.
Madeleine Cleary (27:11):
I think every type of book is different.
Like, um, obviously the kid Litspace, Tina is very different
from adult.
Mm-hmm.
In terms of what the publisher'sgonna do, literary fiction's
gonna be.
Different to your commercialrural crime, you know, Outback
noir book.
Yeah.
Um, and so every book is treateddifferently and that's, I
suppose, what publishers have toweigh up when they're looking at
(27:34):
budgets and all sorts of things,because.
I mean, we all know this.
There is, so, there are so manybooks that are published each
year.
There's a huge breadth.
Um, and sometimes a book thatdoesn't have that much marketing
behind it will do reallyspectacularly well.
And that's fantastic foreverybody.
(27:55):
Um, and sometimes the ones thatdo get all the marketing behind
it.
Don't do well, so it is can kindof, a bit of a gamble as well.
Sometimes.
It's not necessarily one equalstherefore success.
So
Tina Strachan (28:07):
exactly.
Natasha Rai (28:08):
Mm mm
Madeleine Cleary (28:09):
Yeah.
Tina Strachan (28:09):
Just write a good strong book that you love and
like go along for the ride, Ithink.
And I dunno, I think that's thebest way to tackle it.
Madeleine Cleary (28:19):
That's right.
And I think the, the, um, havingbookseller support too, I think
is really crucial for getting tothat bestseller level that
starts with, you know, gettingyour book in stores and out the
front, which is really hard.
So that's where the sales comesales team comes into it.
But, um, you know.
I, I'm, my heart is filled withjoy.
(28:41):
When I have booksellers say tome, oh, I've been, um, hand
selling this just to, to, um,customers and there is nothing
better than, um, hand sellingfor an author.
You know, because, um, once yourbook.
Hits after two months release,it goes to the shelf.
It's not upfront anymore, soyour book's gonna sit on the
(29:03):
shelf, probably spy out, notface out.
So have a books seller reach foryour book and put that into the
hands of a customer.
That's the most important thing.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
How you craft thoserelationships with books
sellers.
Well, that's also in yourcontrol, I think.
Mm.
Tina Strachan (29:17):
And join a debut crew.
'cause they are very good atgoing into bookshops and turning
your book face cover outwhenever they're in there,
regardless of how long it's beenout for.
So it's just like your
Madeleine Cleary (29:27):
little street team hand selling.
I literally hand, hand handheld.
I've hand sold both your books,actually.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
There you go.
Not even books seller.
Oh, it's a, it's a tough one.
That's a tough conversation tohave, but I think it's important
particularly for, I suppose, Debwriters for next year to
consider as well.
Um, and it's probably somethingI didn't really think about
(29:49):
coming into this year that youwill start to see some people
having different treatmentacross the book.
And I think being aware of thatearly on is good because it
reduces the amount of, huh, whyis this person getting this?
And, and the difference, Isuppose, in it.
Yeah, and maybe it's that we'retalking about it and revealing
the secrets of the publishingindustry, but I think it's
(30:12):
pretty obvious though.
Natasha Rai (30:13):
But also I think it comes back to managing
expectations.
You know, if, if you seesomebody else getting a lot of
marketing budget and you getexcited'cause you think that's
how, what the norm is.
Mm-hmm.
That goes straight back to thatidea of disappointment.
So.
The only, the best way to do itis to talk to your publisher and
find out what the plan is foryour book, and then find the
(30:33):
gaps that you can fill.
Madeleine Cleary (30:35):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
And often the amount of moneythat is spent on those books, it
might also come down to theadvance that they've put aside
for that book.
And, you know, if, if it's ahigh advance, then they wanna,
the publisher wants to try andmake sure that they're getting
their money.
Back as much as they can aswell.
Mm-hmm.
So there is a very practicalbusiness side that is less about
the quality of the book and youas an author, and perhaps more
(30:58):
from a business perspective too.
Exactly.
Natasha Rai (31:00):
Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary (31:01):
Important to know.
Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan (31:03):
It is important to make those relationships,
like you said, with BooksellersMadeleine, I was always one who
was like, I don't know how to dothat.
Like, how do I, I don't just,you know, go into bookstores and
I'll buy books.
No one's really.
Um, yeah, I mean, I livesomewhere where we don't have
lots of small independenceeither, so, um.
I've always found it quitedifficult going to the big ones
and everyone's flat out and youjust don't have a second to even
(31:25):
chat to them.
So I always found thatinteresting.
And, um, I think we're going totry and get a bookseller on in a
few weeks who might be able tohelp and give us some advice on,
for debuts on how to best go inthere, how to approach, don't go
in on a Monday morning, I'veheard no.
Or lunchtime.
Or a Saturday or a Sunday, butyeah,
Madeleine Cleary (31:45):
but even if you do,'cause I have done that
before and I'm just like, I'msorry, it's Saturday.
And they're like, no, no, no,we're so happy you're here.
So booksellers are generallylovely people, but yes, we will
Oh yeah, ask the officialbookseller the appropriate
protocols.
Tina Strachan (32:00):
That was great.
That was a great, uh, quote,great chat and great quote from
Catherine.
So I did, like I said, I hadlots that I couldn't choose.
Between though.
But I did and I chose Catherine.
I thought that was a good one.
But I have two honorablementions and I'm actually gonna
read them out and I want youladies to have a guess who the
author is.
Okay?
I said this quote, okay.
Madeleine Cleary (32:21):
Testing our knowledge.
It's like trivia book your,okay.
Tina Strachan (32:24):
I love trivia.
I do trivia.
All my book launches for anybodywho is coming 20 any in the
next.
Quick brown fox on the 2nd ofAugust.
August, if you'd like to come.
There will be wildlife themedtrivia.
Okay.
But for now, all right.
It was just this surreal fairytale night and I
was on a high for the rest ofthe day, so I got home, took my
(32:46):
laxative and logged on for workat 8:00 AM the next day.
Next day.
Anyone wanna have a guess?
Natasha Rai (32:53):
Um, was it Madeleine Cleary?
Well done Natasha.
Yeah, I know.
Look, it's hard to choose whichone of the poo quotes I should
have pulled out for Madeleine.
'cause we do.
You know, we talk about tummytroubles sometimes on the pod.
Madeleine Cleary (33:10):
When you said that, what Madeleine does
anyway, you know when I spokeabout cringe, like looking back
on episodes and cringing all theepisodes where I talked about
taking laxatives and oh my gosh,I love that.
Now, which episode was thatfrom?
Uh, episode 22.
Everybody.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
I have another one.
That's when I had the author andAOL fairytale night.
Tina Strachan (33:32):
Mm.
Oh, didn't have to take likeSteve.
Yeah.
Yeah.
A great story.
A great story.
Um, now this is one from a veryrecent episode, actually, which
just, I just laughed when I,when I heard it.
And I'm, I, sorry.
I'm gonna use this for, fortoday.
Okay.
Ladies, who is this author?
It's a short one.
Ready?
I was titillated.
(33:54):
Oh,
Madeleine Cleary (33:54):
Natasha.
Oh my God.
Oh my God.
I laughed.
I laughed at that episode withHolly.
Ow so much.
You were just like, I reallyloved the sex, Holly.
I just,
Natasha Rai (34:07):
I think I was a bit overenthusiastic about how much
I loved the sex.
Madeleine Cleary (34:10):
Well, you were titillated.
I think,'cause I think the quotewas, was like, Holly was like,
oh, you know, I, it wasn't, myintent wasn't to just tate, you
know, readers.
It was meant to be.
And you're like, I was TATed.
Well, that was TATed.
So it worked.
Holly, good work.
I was, I actually was on my walkup the thous, like up the
(34:30):
mountains and um, I was like,panting.
And then that came in my earsand I just like burst out
laughing.
Um, Natasha's like crying withlaughter, by the way, everybody,
she can't.
Natasha Rai (34:43):
Oh my God, I never knew that's why I was gonna come
back to haunt me.
Well, you should know by now, asdoes, uh, some of our other
guests that we've had on the podthat we do like to pull quotes
out.
Um,
Tina Strachan (2) (34:56):
um, which leads me to Madeleine's that
shouldn't just be in the quoteof this week actually, just
titillated.
I thought about actually doing apost.
I was titillated doing likelittle posts.
Madeleine Cleary (35:09):
Well, Tina, I think next episode we're gonna
have to pull out one of yourquotes, I reckon, because you,
you've gotten both us back, so.
Yeah, exactly.
They're my favorite.
You told me to choose.
It was hard.
Oh, that's good.
Okay, well I'm just gonna playthis quote'cause, um.
Well, you both know which oneit's gonna be, and I, I think we
(35:30):
kind of have to choose this one.
Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan (2) (35:33):
It just
Madeleine Cleary (35:33):
set our socials a fire, a light.
It just, um, completely changedour serious podcast into
something a little bit wild.
All right.
I'm just gonna play it.
Love.
Samuel Bernard (35:46):
So horror could, could well be on its way back.
Um, and actually this year'sBrisbane Writers Festival, I was
on a panel called, uh, whatPublishers Want, and I was asked
this question.
Um, and I kind of startedtalking about how the pendulum,
the pendulum swings away and,and then comes back and that
kind of stuff.
With publishing and post COVID,you know, we really swung away
(36:09):
from.
The dark themes and the really,you know, dark, dark novels in
our society.
And so horror was not goingwell.
Um, you know, cozy crime cameinto its own, had a little, um,
really good purple patch, um,lighthearted fiction humor, all
doing really well.
Um.
But it, yeah, I don't know.
I had this problem with thependulum just going, like being
(36:32):
really rudimentary, backward andforward.
So I kind of compared it togranddad's balls where they just
kinda swing around.
Um, I don't think I'll beinvited back to the pen writers
first after that.
True.
Because like, you know, it, itis not just one side to a net to
the other.
It's all over the shop.
Um, so grandad bowl stuff to, toflo around a little bit.
(36:55):
We'd always invite you back tothe pod though, Samuel.
It's okay.
Madeleine Cleary (36:58):
So for those who don't know, that is, um,
dunno the episode, uh, SamuelBernard.
Um, we have two parts and thisis actually part two.
Um, our episode with literaryagent zeitgeist agency and also
my agent after that as well.
So, um, I did warn Sam, Imessaged him today and said, um,
we're resurrecting granddad'sballs.
(37:20):
Just tell him back.
He's coming back.
I said, do you give mepermission?
He's like, of course.
So it's such
Natasha Rai (37:30):
a good quote.
Madeleine Cleary (37:31):
Mm-hmm.
It's a great quote and.
Tina and I actually watched thevisual.
I think, well actually I think Iremember the visual, but I did
see the video of us and becausePat, my husband, said to me when
I played this earlier today,he's like, why weren't you and
Tina like laughing?
I'm like, no, no, no.
We were laughing, but we had ourhands covering our face, trying
(37:52):
not to just burst out laughing.
As soon as he said granddad'sbulls.
Oh, I've had that quoted back tome so many times from people.
It really has been a highlight.
It's a highlight.
But I guess, you know, in allseriousness it does make sense
because I think if you are, wewere talking about trying to
write to trends and it is hardto predict a trend and write to
(38:14):
a trend, particularly'cause youknow, we all know publishing
takes a few years once you getsigned the contract.
You could be all in the cozycrime and writing cozy crime
because you think that's gonnabe a bestseller, but then it's
diverted to horror, you know, afew years later and you've
missed that trend.
So you've gotta write what youand what, so what I think the
message is, you've, you've gottawrite the things that you love.
Like that's what you should beand what you're passionate
(38:35):
about.
Um, so there was, there was, um,some good solid, um, advice
behind that as well, which Iloved.
But, um.
I did wanna actually talk tooabout, um, um, getting an agent.
'cause I don't think I everrevealed that on the podcast as
well.
Tina Strachan (38:50):
No, I don't think you did.
So yeah, that would be reallygood if you could chat everybody
through'cause that's what a lotof people are, you know, wanting
advice on.
Madeleine Cleary (38:58):
Yes, yes.
And actually at the, when weinterviewed Sam, so this was
last year, I think Samuel, um,Samuel wasn't my agent back
then.
And, um.
We had been chatting for awhile, and so I'd asked him onto
the podcast and, you know, he,we'd sort of talked about what
I've been writing and he hadread a little bit about it.
Um, and yeah, after the podcast,um, I was asking him for some
(39:24):
advice about approaching agents,like looking for an agent.
And I, I actually didn't thinkhe was interested in, in sort
of, you know.
Signing me, but I just sort ofsaid, oh, I'm doing some
pitching sessions with a coupleof agents.
Um, what do you think?
Like, do you have any advice?
And, um, he actually came backto me like, I think it was like
(39:46):
a few hours later and he's like,oh, um, I'll sign you.
And I was like, oh my gosh.
I'm like, really?
I, I was like, are you serious?
'cause I think you sort of justmessaged me and I said, yeah,
yeah.
I'm really keen, I really,really love your writing and
your book.
And, um,'cause I sort of hadn'tdecided whether I was gonna get
an agent or not.
And then, you know, I was like,no, no, I really wanna do it.
(40:07):
And he's like, yeah, absolutely.
I'll sign you up.
Um, but at the time we couldn'tannounce it because, well, and
also he had said, um, you know,after we did the podcast, he's
like, you, you know, I reallythought that, you know, you've
got a lot behind you and you'vegot, you know, you're building a
good profile in the communityand the writing industry.
So he'd sort of watched me dothat over that year.
(40:28):
Um, and that was quiteinteresting because it's not
just about the writing, it'salso about.
Like what you are doing aroundthat too.
Um, and so yeah, I reallyactually have the podcast, I
think to, to thank for, forgetting an agent.
I recognize,
Tina Strachan (40:43):
I'm sure it's your writing, Madeleine, but
yes, the po that's probably, Isuppose probably, but yeah,
that, that's it.
Connection is such a big thing.
Hey, we've had these discussionsbefore about connection and I
think that's how I definitelyhelped me sign as well with my
publisher was making connectionswith her.
Um.
(41:04):
But you don't like, just in caseanybody has listened to episodes
before, you don't need an agentin Australia and you don't need
a podcast.
So, you know, you hear peopletalk about having a platform and
you know, definitely having apodcast gives you a platform.
Um, but prior to that, you know,it's hard like to have.
(41:27):
To gain a platform.
Really.
And I guess unless you canorganically do it, I don't know.
I, I know, I mean, I spent yearswondering how you could ever do
that, but you still don't, youdon't need a platform to either.
It does all come back to thewriting, but did you wanna talk
a little bit about how.
What it's done for you though,having an agent and how it's
helped you?
Madeleine Cleary (41:46):
Yeah, for sure.
So, um, yeah, absolutely you donot need an agent.
Um, I spent a few monthsthinking about whether I should
or not, um, because I've alreadygot such an awesome
relationship.
With my publisher and, um, Ididn't need that.
But what I decided was that I'mlooking for a long-term career
in writing and I really wantedclear strategic advice.
(42:12):
Um, and also that editorialsupport and zeitgeist agency
actually do, they're one of thefew agencies that offer, um,
editorial as well.
Um, just because I've never doneany writing courses or.
Gone to uni to do writing.
I, you know, it's a very organicthing and I think anything you
(42:32):
can to improve your writing andget some good advice about.
Next steps I'd written as well,a contemporary fiction novel.
Um, and, and so it was quitedifferent to my historical
fiction and so I wasn't surewhat to do with that as well.
Um, whether that should be mynext, so that's where an agent
can come in and sort of.
(42:52):
Give you advice about your, yourcareer, um, and what to do.
And so it's funny though,because the timing last year
when Sam signed me withZeitgeist, um, we couldn't
announce it for months becauseI, as soon as he signed me, he
said, oh, I said, by the way,I've applied for the Australian
Fiction Prize.
Um, I've submitted mymanuscript.
I hadn't heard anything at thatstage.
(43:13):
And he, I, but I knew he was ajudge.
And, um, he didn't know I'dapplied.
He hadn't reviewed or seen anyof the manuscripts, and they
don't, they don't receive that.
They only get the shortlistedones.
And so Harper Collins do theshortlisting for that.
So I just wanted to let himknow.
I'm like, Hey, you know, and sohe let them know.
Immediately.
(43:33):
And when he got the shortlist,um, sent to him, so this was
after he'd signed me, my namewas on the shortlist.
And so he was like, oh, this isgonna, people are gonna think
I've, um, you know, if weannounce it, like there's gonna
be conflict of interest.
And he was, you know, veryprofessional and removed himself
from all of that.
You know, the judging of my workand everything.
So, yeah.
(43:54):
By the time we could announceit, five months had gone by and
I'm like, well, I just didn'twant to felt like it.
It's, it's gone.
Felt like it was
Tina Strachan (44:02):
over.
Yeah.
And that's, that's not unusual,is it?
And for, for various reasons.
You're told to sort of just holdYeah.
For a bit.
And you know, people are sittingthere with this awesome
information and you know thatthey just wanna get out.
Yes.
Madeleine Cleary (44:13):
So, but yes, and Sam, like zeitgeist are
amazing and Sam's been fantasticfor, I don't know.
That it was absolutely the rightdecision.
Decision.
Tina Strachan (2) (44:21):
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine Cleary (44:21):
And I, I think, you know, that's helped
me decide the direction as well.
And I'm really keen on historicwriting and historical fiction
and staying with a firm and, andsort of, you know, becoming a,
um, as much as I can, along-term career as, as much as
I, you know, will continue tobe, um, in that sort of space.
So, um, and it's just, I guessit is also nice to have someone
(44:43):
in your corner who you know isin your corner.
Um, that's been the otherbenefit.
Having said all that, you do notneed an agent.
You can also get a coach,Catherine Collette's coaches.
Mm.
I've actually just started alittle coaching thing as well.
Um, uh, yeah, I'm, I haven'tadvertised it.
I'm just taking, like, I've gota few clients now, um, who are
just doing very select stuff,but, um, you know, because I
(45:06):
think coaching, it is helpful tohave someone in your corner.
So, and I think there will be afew debut rider who, um, might
be looking at doing somecoaching as well for next year's
crew.
Mm-hmm.
Tina Strachan (45:19):
Yeah, I think that's really important.
'cause you do feel a little biton your own, don't you?
Yes.
I don't have an agent, Tash.
And Tash doesn't have an agenteither?
No, I don't have an agent.
No.
No.
And you, um.
Do sometimes it's nice, it'snice to, you know, be able to
just chat straight to yourpublishers, which you can do
anyway when you still have anagent.
But you know, there are, theydeal with other things with your
(45:39):
publisher, but, um, it's, yeah,sometimes, like you just said
with your career.
You know, the sort of thatbigger picture stuff, not just
your next deal.
Mm-hmm.
Like your bigger picture stuff.
It's nice to have someone whoknows the industry, knows what's
happening and can guide on that.
Um, yeah, so I see definitebenefits in that as well.
Madeleine Cleary (45:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's a good, it's a decisionthat everyone should think about
because of course, you know,there is a cost element too.
Like your agent doesn't work forfree, they take 15%.
Um, which is also really usefulto know when you're thinking
about it.
But, um, I think if you are anemerging writer and looking to
submit, it is worthwhile testingwaters with a few agents to see
(46:20):
their level of interest, becauseit's better, I think to approach
agents first.
And if you're getting all nos,then perhaps it gives you a bit
of.
You know, a suggestion, that'swhen you get a
Tina Strachan (46:30):
coach to help you with your practical writing.
Madeleine Cleary (46:33):
That's
Tina Strachan (46:33):
right.
Happy to coach anyone on how tostory grid their work.
Actually, I can story, I'll signup to that.
Tina, into, into an Excelspreadsheet.
Oh, Madeleine, guys.
Madeleine's coming around to thespreadsheet.
Oh, Madeleine, you can't,there's an episode in this.
Please just let me do it.
Uh, um, and do it for free.
(46:57):
Um, yes.
So that's where a coach doescome in as well.
You know, and I just wanted tosay, uh, before we wrap it up as
well, that, um, ways of gettingin front of agents can be just
as hard as it can be, just ashard to get in front of an agent
as can to a publisher, but takeadvantage of, um, pitch sessions
and, um, you know, conferencesand events that offer
(47:20):
assessments.
A great way of getting your workin front of, um, agents and
publishers, and you may have topay, but, um, some really good
things can come out of that.
It's getting in front of themand they're reading it, and
that's, that's, that's the firststep everyone.
Madeleine Cleary (47:36):
Exactly.
And that feedback is sovaluable.
And, um, yeah.
As particularly like the CYA oryou'll have to wait another year
for CYAI think after this comesup.
We'll, yeah, next week, uh, thisweekend is the actual
conference, so Right.
Perfect.
But the a SA do their quarterlypitch session sessions as well,
so, um, do, do sign up to that.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
(47:57):
Oh well, grand's balls, pendulumspins, pen's, balls.
Yep.
Tina Strachan (48:01):
Awesome.
Very titillating.
Madeleine,
Tina Strachan (2) (48:05):
is it Grand's balls?
Titillating.
Natasha Rai (48:09):
I'm not getting involved in this bit,
Madeleine Cleary (48:14):
Natasha, by this conversation.
Natasha Rai (48:18):
Actually, no, not with granddad's balls.
No, not
now.
Not anymore.
Oh.
Anyway, it was so lovely to chatto you ladies altogether
Tina Strachan (48:27):
and um, congratulations on one year of
the book Deal podcast.
Natasha Rai (48:31):
Yes.
Congratulations.
You two set up an amazingpodcast that're very proud.
Madeleine Cleary (48:35):
It's all Tina.
Tina is, that's not.
Has been at the, the helm ofthis ship, um, guiding us
through the, the crazy waters.
So thank you, Tina.
All your podcast researchinformation, voice memos, ideas,
suggestions, it's amazing.
Tina Strachan (48:50):
Team effort, ladies, um, and look forward to
another wonderful year ofpodcasting and interviewing.
It's so fun, isn't it Fun.
So fun.
Madeleine Cleary (48:59):
And if you want story grid coaching, go to
Tina.
Uh yep.
DM me Are up.
Mm-hmm.
Bye bye.
Tina Strachan (3) (49:12):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new EPS drop and to keep
up to date with what the pod isdoing.
You can also find us onInstagram.
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