In this episode, host Natasha Rai sits down with paramedic and debut author Sally Gould to discuss her memoir, "Frog." Sally shares her journey from keeping clinical journals as a student to transforming her experiences into a compelling narrative. The conversation explores the challenges of writing memoir, the process of seeking feedback, navigating the publishing world, and the emotional impact of sharing personal stories. Sally offers candid insights into the realities of paramedic life, the importance of time in the creative process, and advice for aspiring writers.
00:00 – Introduction
Natasha introduces the Book Deal Podcast and previews the episode’s focus on debut and seasoned authors.
00:27 – Acknowledgement of Country
Madeleine Cleary delivers the land and waters acknowledgment.
00:40 – Meet Sally Gould
Natasha introduces Sally, her background as a paramedic, and the inspiration behind "Frog."
01:29 – Sally’s Elevator Pitch
Sally describes her memoir and its focus on personal and professional growth.
02:37 – The Origins of "Frog"
Sally discusses her early journals, the transition from private reflection to public story, and the initial audience she imagined.
05:46 – Turning Journals into a Book
Sally explains her self-directed learning process, editing, and the challenges of writing as a novice.
09:07 – Feedback and Growth
Sally shares her experiences with feedback from family, manuscript assessments, and professional editors, and how she learned to process and use criticism constructively.
13:17 – The Publishing Journey
Sally details her approach to competitions, mentorship, and ultimately securing an agent and publishing deal.
18:45 – Editing, Publication, and Self-Care
Sally reflects on the final editing rounds, the emotional impact of publication, and strategies for handling negative feedback.
24:03 – Life After Publication
Sally talks about her current writing practice, balancing work and family, and the challenges of starting new projects.
27:42 – Community Response and Advice for Writers
Sally discusses feedback from colleagues and readers, the importance of visibility, and offers tips for aspiring memoirists and those seeking traditional publication.
31:38 – Closing Thoughts & Intention Setting
Natasha wraps up with refle
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Natasha Rai (00:09):
This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover
by your host, Natasha Rai.
I'll be bringing you even moredebut and season authors as they
talk about their path topublication.
Madeleine Cleary (00:26):
The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters, which it's recorded
on and pays respect to theirelders past, present, and
emerging.
Natasha Rai (00:39):
sally Gould has been a paramedic for 14 years
and counting and still finds joyin her self-proclaimed dream
job.
The professional and personalgrowth she experienced on the
frontline and the journals shekept during her early years in
the field were the inspirationfor her memoir Frog.
Her draft manuscript won thenarrative nonfiction category in
(01:00):
the 2023 A SA ca Awardmentorship program.
When she's not in uniform, Sallycan be found tutoring, paramedic
students, or immersed in herwriting.
She spends the rest of her daysoff nurturing herself through
running bush, walking, baking,attending the theater, and
spending time with family andfriends.
(01:21):
Sally lives in Sydney with herhusband and their two children.
Hello, Sally Gould.
Welcome to the Book Dealpodcast.
Good morning, Natasha.
How are you?
Yeah, I'm well, thanks.
How are you?
Oh, I'm fine, thank you.
Um, thanks for joining me today.
Uh, just wanted to talk to youabout your memoir, frog.
(01:44):
Yes.
And maybe some publicationjourney stuff and, you know,
just a bunch of other thingsthat I think are very
interesting.
Mm-hmm.
Sounds good.
So how do you feel about, uh,giving me your elevator pitch
for Frog?
It's
Sally Gould (01:56):
not my favorite thing to do.
Um, I should have been preparedfor this one, but I'm not.
Um, frog is my story from when Istarted as a university
ride-along paramedic student upuntil when I become an intensive
care paramedic.
So I think it's told through thelens of all the patients that I
see, well, a bunch of thepatients that I see over that
(02:17):
time period, but it's much moreabout my growth as a clinician
and as a person throughout thattime period.
Natasha Rai (02:25):
That was
Sally Gould (02:25):
pretty good.
Yes.
Nailed it.
We're off to a good start.
Natasha Rai (02:29):
Um, look, I've read it and I absolutely loved it as
you know,'cause I was messagingyou the whole time I was reading
it.
Um, I just think it's amazingbecause it helped me really get
an insight into what a typicalshift might look like or even a
non-typical shift and just thepressures that you are under
when you're working in that veryhigh stress situation.
(02:49):
So.
I loved reading it to just getthat insight.
Parts of it were really hard toread, I'll be honest, um,
because of the case studies thatyou include.
But again, it's all that uniquekind of perspective into your
world, I guess, your workingworld.
Sally Gould (03:05):
Yeah, I think that was one of the goals when
writing the book is I've reallyenjoyed opening the doors, so to
speak, on the ambulance andshowing people my version of
what it's really like.
Yeah.
Not the glossy TV version, butyou know, really put the reader
inside my head.
Natasha Rai (03:19):
And you did.
So thank you for that.
Now, I've heard you speak aboutyour book, and I know that you,
it came out of a diary that youkept for many years.
Is diary the right word?
Sally Gould (03:30):
Yeah, when?
When I started as a universitystudent, we had to keep a
clinical log of all the patientsthat we saw just to tick off
that component of the place.
But I felt like that was soobjective and it wasn't covering
near enough of the experience,and I wanted to capture
everything.
Maybe that's the writer in me.
I wanted to capture the way theparamedics walked and the how
(03:52):
they carried their gear and whatthey spoke about between jobs
and the way they joked and theirdark humor.
And so I kept my own journal ordiary, um, of my time in that
initial placement.
Um, just trying to capture allthe weird and wonderful things I
was seeing.
Natasha Rai (04:06):
Mm-hmm.
At what point did you start tolook at your, kind of, your
entries and reflect on it andfeel that maybe you would like
to have them published?
Sally Gould (04:21):
Uh, it took a long time.
Mm-hmm.
It was certainly never theintention with the original
journal.
Um, and nor was it with over thefollowing years, I wasn't
intending to turn it into abook.
It was purely for my ownreflection, I guess, to capture
that time, to capture my growth,to be able to reflect on it, um,
to learn from it.
But yeah, it took years until Istarted to sort of see a story
(04:44):
emerging from what I'd beenthrough to think, ah, maybe
someone else might be interestedin this.
But it certainly wasn't theintention from the start.
Natasha Rai (04:52):
And that, that time when you started to think about
someone else might beinterested, were you kind of
thinking about like otherparamedics or people generally?
Sally Gould (05:00):
I was certainly, it was limited.
I thought my colleagues wouldprobably really like this'cause
I thought they could relate toit.
They'd see themselves in it.
And that's kind of where myimagination stopped at that
point, just thinking, oh, mycolleagues would probably enjoy
this.
And then I allowed myself todream a bit and I thought, oh,
maybe like other emergencyservices and frontline workers.
And I thought, oh, well maybetheir friends and family might
(05:21):
enjoy, um, the insight.
And it wasn't until I sort ofgot in contact with people
within the industry that theysaid, oh no, no, there's a much
bigger audience for this that Ireally allowed myself to realize
that.
Natasha Rai (05:32):
Yeah.
Oh wow.
So then what was your kind ofnext steps from that, those kind
of conversations?
How did you begin to go intothat publishing journey?
Sally Gould (05:44):
I think from the start I just wanted to turn the
book into a fully fleshed outbook, and that was just a dream
I had for myself and just a goalI set for myself.
It certainly wasn't, um, apublication dream from the
start.
It was just, I've got all these.
Anecdotes, these stories, thesememories that I've captured.
I wanna write about it, I wannaflesh it out.
(06:05):
I wanna turn it into some sortof, um, whole story with
narrative arc and characterdevelopment.
And I am the character and Ijust enjoyed setting myself that
challenge.
And so it wasn't, I'm gonna getthis published.
It was mm-hmm.
I'd just like to see.
A hobby space where fleshing allof this out and learning the
craft of writing a bit as I go,um, where that gets me, that was
(06:27):
the very start, was just thisstrange dream that all my
friends thought I was a bitcrazy for thinking I was just
gonna write a book.
They're like, why, why would youwrite a book?
I was like, well, why not learnsomething new?
Natasha Rai (06:40):
So how did you figure out how to do all of
that?
Like, you know, the characterarcs the narrative arc.
Sally Gould (06:46):
Uh, I did a lot of just self-directed learning.
So like deep dives, onlinecourses, reading, I mean the
internet's as long as you canfilter correctly as a whole host
of good information.
And I just really, um, focusedon one element at a time.
'cause I found it sooverwhelming trying to learn
something new.
I was very expert as a paramedicand incredibly novice as a
(07:07):
writer and I still feel thatway.
Um, but.
I just did one thing at a time,so perhaps my focus might be on,
um, dialogue.
And so, you know, for a numberof weeks I do this deep dive on
how to write dialogue and how tocapture people's voices and how
much is too much and where itneeds to go and what the purpose
of it is.
And then I'd do a full edit ofthe manuscript just based on
(07:29):
that lesson I'd learned, andthen I'd go on to the next one.
Natasha Rai (07:32):
Oh wow.
I mean, that sounds boththorough and sort of painful.
Sally Gould (07:36):
Oh yes.
Oh yes.
I don't think I did it the easyway.
I think I just.
In and then was like, oh, Iprobably need to actually learn
some technique to this.
And then was sort of trying toback lay all of the learning I
was doing onto the manuscriptthat I had.
So it wasn't easy.
And it wasn't smooth and it tookmaybe longer than it should
have.
But I enjoyed the process, Ienjoyed the challenge.
(07:58):
Um, and I also enjoyed beingable to see the manuscript get
better.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, every time I made thesechanges and.
I guess that was the start ofit, starting to be transformed
into something that wasaccessible for a reader, not
just something that I was doingfor myself.
Natasha Rai (08:14):
Yeah.
And all the kind of researchthat you did and the learning,
are there any courses or um,websites that you remember that
were particularly helpful thatyou wanted to share?
Now you don't have to.
That's a putting you on the spotquestion.
Sally Gould (08:30):
No, that's all right.
I found this lady, um, Wendy,who did a course on me, memoir
writing, uh, for geniuses.
I found a few of her resourcesquite useful.
Um, I also lent on theAustralian Society of Authors.
Um, I signed up to all of thatand did a deep dive of all their
stuff, which was super helpful.
And the Australian WritersCenter as well had some courses,
(08:52):
so just like local, um,accessible, some free, some
paid.
Um.
But yeah, quite accessible frommy lounge at home where I was
doing my hobby writing.
Nice.
And so
Natasha Rai (09:05):
do you remember like kind of what length of time
you took to do this kind of,kind of element by element?
Um, manuscript, structuralrewrite edit?
Sally Gould (09:16):
Um, I'd say probably the most part of a
year.
So I spent a year, the problemwas I hadn't learned that you're
supposed to sort of, well theysay get it all out and then do
an edit.
I was doing a whole lot ofediting as I went because the
perfectionist in me is like, youcan't leave something messy.
So I hated moving on tosomething until I'd tidied.
(09:36):
Um, if I did it all again, I'dprobably do a bit more of a dump
and then fine tune from there.
Natasha Rai (09:42):
Mm-hmm.
Sally Gould (09:42):
So I was doing a bit of an edit as I wrote, and
so that's why it probably tookme over a year to write the
initial manuscript and thenanother year to do all of this
fine tuning before I felt.
I was ready to let anyone elsesort of see it.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (09:54):
Yeah.
And that also is a very muchkind of emerging writer, debut
writer process as well.
Like especially'cause so many ofus write in the dark or in
secret.
Yes.
Or we treat it like a hobby andwe don't think it's can be
anything serious.
So we do, we are very like takegreat pains to make sure it's
(10:15):
perfect, whatever that is forus.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Correct.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So at the end of the two years,um, what did you have in terms
of your manuscript?
Sally Gould (10:27):
I had a full manuscript, uh, full length
complete manuscript that hadonly been looked over by me.
So it was very much full lengthand fully fleshed out.
And as far as I could get itpersonally, yeah.
Um, I'd like trolled over it.
Multiple edits, multiple readthroughs.
(10:49):
Tried to do some more learning,tweaking, and I just was at the
point I, I had it, it was full,but I couldn't see it anymore.
If that makes sense.
Yeah, it does
Natasha Rai (10:57):
make total sense.
And, you know, um, I talked toother writers about this idea of
the character arc, and I knowyou just said earlier that you
were the character, so to speak.
So with your arc, without givingtoo much away, there is a strong
mental health component and asense of, um, I don't know what
the right word is, like a senseof.
Coming into yourself and youridentity as a paramedic.
(11:21):
Like, I'm not saying thathappened.
I'm trying not to give anythingaway.
I'm saying that there was thedefinite search for that.
Were you consciously aware ofthat type of, um, arc for this
for, for yourself as you werelooking at your case histories?
Or did that emerge kind of inthe process?
Sally Gould (11:40):
Interesting question'cause I started writing
the book a lot earlier than therecent go I had at it.
So maybe 10 years ago now.
I started writing and this, thestuff that happened in the book
hadn't really happened yet.
Um, and so it would've been avery different book.
I ended up losing 20,000 words,um,'cause I didn't save it.
(12:01):
Oh my gosh.
And the computer just died andtook that.
Um, so I had a bit of a breakand I think in that time.
Like a little bit more lifehappened.
Mm-hmm.
And that's where, yeah, I, Itoyed with the ending,'cause I
wrote the book chronologically.
'cause that's how I had thediaries and journals that I was
turning into this story.
And I almost, I toyed with theidea of, of just not including
(12:23):
that as an element for a while.
Mm-hmm.
Just thinking.
Is it too much or was it tooclose to the end?
And all these sorts of things.
And then I had a look down sortof hero's journey and all that
type stuff and thought, oh, thisis just made for this.
So yeah, it, it kind of fellinto place itself.
It wasn't forced, um, it wasn't,the timeline wasn't played with,
(12:44):
it was just what, the way Icropped the end of the book, um,
made it sit in the structurethat it currently is at.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (12:52):
Okay.
So very much time and.
Life have shaped it in a lot ofways, just like you would if
you're running fiction, if youleft it alone for a few years
and you come back to it withfresh eyes.
So I, I'm trying to make a tipout of something that you've
said, which is if you givesomething time, you can really
see the potential of growth init or changes, right?
(13:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sally Gould (13:15):
And I think if, if I noticed a lot of times I was
trying to push something ortrying to make something fit.
And it didn't.
And I think the more space Igave it, it sorted itself out,
you know, in a weird way.
Natasha Rai (13:27):
Mm-hmm.
Sally Gould (13:27):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (13:28):
So once you couldn't see it anymore, as you
say, um, who did you show it to?
Sally Gould (13:34):
The very first person was actually my sister.
And they say, uh, don't show itto people, you know,'cause
they'll just say, oh, this isamazing.
Um, but I've got a very uniquesister in that she's incredibly
frank and honest, and I love herdearly for that.
Um, she's widely read.
She's not a paramedic, but she'smy sister.
And I just said to her like, Iknow you'll tell me if this is
absolute garbage.
Um, that's what I want.
(13:55):
And she knows there is nosugarcoating in my family.
There's no niceties, there's nosoftening hard messages.
It's just the truth.
Um, so I felt very comfortableshowing her, knowing that she
was gonna tell me the truth, uh,which she did.
Um, and one of her first bits offeedback was, um, you sound like
a psychopath.
Natasha Rai (14:14):
Oh my God.
Okay.
Sally Gould (14:15):
And in, in that, I'd taken these.
Journals and I'd let people intomy head and I'd done nothing to
ease the reader, the nonparamedic reader, into this
horrific world that I'd just ledthem into.
Yeah.
So none of the, none of theclosure on the patient cases,
none of the easing them into anoutcome because I'm like, well,
(14:36):
no, they died.
She's like, yeah, but the readerthought they had a chance.
You need to let them down gentlyhere.
I was like, oh, okay.
Sorry.
Didn't even think of that.
Um, so very useful feedback.
Very honest feedback.
But also kind of gave me a bitof confidence to think, oh,
okay.
She didn't think it was trashand I know she'd tell me if she
was like, this is not worthpursuing.
Yeah.
So she was the very firstperson.
Natasha Rai (14:57):
Okay, great.
So you took the arm psychopath,um, feedback and I worked with
it.
So you did, so you, you changedelements at that point?
Sally Gould (15:06):
Yeah.
It was still an early draft andshe was still very much doing,
um.
Like wide brush stroke feedback.
It wasn't anything fine tuning.
I just said to her the general Iwas after like pacing and what
stories are working and whataren't and that type of thing.
Um, and yeah, she gave me thatfeedback.
Natasha Rai (15:24):
Mm-hmm.
And
Sally Gould (15:25):
yeah, it gave me the confidence.
'cause the next person Iactually got a manuscript
assessment done.
Um, I'm pretty sure it wasthrough the Australian Society
of Authors and that's a paid, ummm-hmm.
Service.
And they looked it.
Maybe it was the first chapter.
I just remember it being areally short piece and just
being like, is that enough?
Is that enough for them to toknow?
(15:45):
And that was the first time I'dgot professional feedback and I
found that very difficult.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (15:51):
Oh, okay.
What was difficult about it?
Sally Gould (15:53):
Um, it was difficult because I.
Because it's my life.
Like it's memoir.
It's not something I've made up.
It's not something I've dreamtof.
It's, it's my life.
And when someone criticizesthat, and the way you've written
about it or the way even feelslike an attack on the way you
responded to something in lifeor the way you felt about
(16:13):
something, which is not, it'stotally not, but it felt a
little bit like an attack.
And maybe I wasn't ready forthat.
And I, I went through thisdistinct process of like that
denial of like, no.
They're wrong.
They don't know what they'retalking about.
That's not the right feedback.
They've misunderstood where Iwas coming from, you know,
getting very defensive about it,and then I'd sort of sit with it
(16:35):
for a bit and then I'd come tothis realization of like as I
processed it, ah, okay, it makesa bit more sense.
Maybe they know what they'retalking about.
Then I'd turn into likeoverwhelm of like, oh, I don't
even know how to start changingall the things they've suggested
and then overcoming that end.
Coming out with a bettermanuscript
Natasha Rai (16:53):
D did.
Looking back and also now thatyou, you are kind of more
accustomed, I guess, to feedbackfrom professionals.
Did, did sitting with it, givingit some time kind of help you
see that maybe some of itmight've been useful or, or that
you could use it in some waythat felt good or right for your
manuscript?
Sally Gould (17:13):
Yes.
Yes.
I, I found my natural instinctwas to just dismiss it and
ignore it, because that feltsafest.
It was protecting me from hurtand from hard work.
And I'd sit with it and I'dnormally wrestle with it for,
you know, a week, maybe twoweeks, and it'd just be on my
mind ticking over, you know,expanding it into different
areas of the book, seeing whatwould change if they were
(17:36):
actually right.
And every time, every time I gotfeedback, I'd get to the end of
it and realize they were right.
They knew what they were talkingabout and the manuscript was
better for it.
But it was, I've now learned tobuild in that time because I
know I'm gonna have that sameresponse every time.
Not as, as, oh for sure.
Dramatic and not as, um,difficult a wrestle.
(17:56):
'cause I'm more open to it.
But now I know.
Give yourself the first few daysto be angry at whoever gave you
the feedback, to be confused, tobe in denial.
Give yourself however long youneed to wrestle with it and
whether it's useful, and thentrust that you'll actually come
out the other end and, and it,you don't have to take on
everything.
But more often than not, there'ssome absolute gems in feedback.
(18:17):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (18:17):
Yeah.
And I, it feels like you've kindof given lots of clues in your
answer to that.
But I was wondering about that,like how you take feedback on
when you're writing memoir,because as you said, these are
things that have happened inyour life and part of your
experience.
Um, so, and correct me if I'mwrong, but it sounded like how
you do it is you really can pullapart the elements in terms of
(18:41):
they're, they're giving you,they're critiquing the style and
the way you've positioned thestory, not the story itself,
right?
Sally Gould (18:48):
Yes.
Yeah.
And, and to distance it, it'snot, they're not criticizing.
My life, the way I responded tothings, the way I feel about
things, how I process things.
They're criticizing the way thatit, the effectiveness of that
translating to the reader'sunderstanding of it.
And there's a massive differenceto that.
Natasha Rai (19:06):
Yeah.
And that helps you come back toit with the kind of a different
set of eyes that it's, as yousaid, it's not critical of you
as opposed.
Sally Gould (19:14):
And then to say, well, if it's not coming across
the correct way to the reader,thanks for flagging it because
this is what I mean, and this issuper important.
It also strengthens your beliefin what you want to stay
untouched in the manuscript.
I think that's also anotherthing.
There's, I learned as I wentthat I can take some feedback
and some of it I can say no andhave a reason for saying no to
(19:36):
and'cause I want it to stay trueto however I wrote it or
whatever happened or whatever itmay be.
But.
I became a bit more decisiveabout what feedback was useful
to me and what wasn't.
Natasha Rai (19:47):
Yeah.
Which is a tough lesson because,you know, especially, um, new or
debut writers, you don't, youdon't really know like what you
can push back on or what youcan, whether you have the
strength or the courage to goNo, because, are you gonna like,
make someone angry or, yeah,it's a hard, it's a hard one.
Sally Gould (20:03):
It is.
I had a delightful editor,Meredith Rose, who I worked with
through, um, Simon and Schuster.
And she is an absolute gun.
Um, I've never met anyone thatworks so efficiently and quickly
and accurately.
Um, very, very clever woman andalso doesn't sugarcoat things.
So that worked well for mebecause she'd just come at me
(20:24):
with it.
But she made it very clear.
She said, you, you can say no.
Do any of these suggestions.
They are my suggestions.
Um, they're coming from me, andyou are the author and you know
the true story and you don'thave to justify it, which.
It was so empowering because I'mso glad she said that.
'cause otherwise I would'vethought, oh, working with my
editor, my editor says whathappens?
(20:44):
And I agree, and they make it abetter book.
And that's the end of story.
But through working with her, Ilearned, oh no, she's, she's
okay.
She's not gonna get offended ifI say no, it's staying this way.
And I, she said, you don't evenneed to justify just that's the
way you want it.
You are the author.
And unless it's something likegrammatically incorrect, she's
not, she's gonna be okay withit.
(21:04):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (21:05):
Which is so amazing because, you know, not all
editors are that clear
Sally Gould (21:10):
in terms
Natasha Rai (21:10):
of what they expect and what they can do for, for,
for a writer.
So that's really good.
Sally Gould (21:14):
Mm.
So I feel like I really workedwith the editor.
I thought that was gonna be morelike a one-sided thing, but it
was very much a could this work?
Could that work?
Are you happy with this?
Like a back and forth, which wasreally good.
Natasha Rai (21:25):
Yeah.
Collaborative, right?
Sally Gould (21:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (21:28):
So at which point Sally did you feel that you were
ready to start submitting?
Or, or was there, I don't know.
Was there even a thought beforethat, as in, should I submit or
do I wanna do this?
Sally Gould (21:41):
So since I'd put in all the hard work to learn all
the things and write this wholemanuscript, and my husband had
looked at me pouring hours of mylife into it, I think we all
kind of expected that I wasgonna do something with it at
this point.
And when I.
Started to realize, okay, it'snot absolute garbage.
Um, I'm still feeling passionateabout it.
I still feel like it's somethingI want out in the world.
(22:01):
I started looking at all thepaths thinking, okay, am I gonna
self-publish this?
Am I gonna look for traditionalpublishing?
Like, how does that even workagain, like all sorts of deep
dives on the internet to try andfigure out like how to publish
book in Australia.
Mm-hmm.
You know, like I was at thatlevel of having yes.
No friends that were writers.
No one I knew had published abook.
I knew no one in the industry,not even related, like all my
(22:25):
contacts are medicine based,which is not helpful when you're
publishing a book.
Um, but then I thought, uh,because I like to set myself a
challenge, I was like, well,let's reach for the stars.
Let's go for a traditionalpublishing deal.
Um, and then I can always comeup with a plan B if I don't get
any traction there.
And then there was the whole.
Do I get an agent?
(22:45):
Do I go to publishing housesagain, just I felt so blind
trying to navigate that industryand that world, not knowing I
didn't wanna take a wrong step,that would mean I couldn't
progress.
You know, as they say, if youapproach too many agents and get
knocked back, then thepublishing houses don't wanna
look at you.
So there's all these sort oflittle things you hear along the
way and you read online.
You think, well, I don't wannashoot myself in the foot and not
(23:08):
be able to.
To sort of getting traction withit.
Natasha Rai (23:11):
And just on that point at that, the, in those
times or the, those moments, itreally does feel like end of the
road stuff.
Like, if you do this, you'llruin your chances forever.
Sally Gould (23:21):
Yes,
Natasha Rai (23:21):
yes.
And it's not always true.
Sally Gould (23:24):
No, but
Natasha Rai (23:25):
I know the feeling.
Yeah.
Sally Gould (23:26):
It, it felt very like, well, don't stuff this up
because one, one place I readsaid, you know, if three agents
have said no, no one else isgonna ever wanna look at you.
Oh.
Which is so
Natasha Rai (23:35):
not true.
Sally Gould (23:36):
So I've got three shots and I've never done this
before.
And that you're out and thenthat's it.
Yeah.
So it felt very, um, big at thetime and looking back now and
knowing a bit more about theindustry and as you would know,
it's not as black and white asthat at all.
No.
Um, but I'd made the decisionto, um, and just some
competitions before I leapt intosubmitting.
(23:59):
'cause the submitting part justfelt a little bit scary.
Yeah.
Since I'd hardly had any.
Industry experts look over themanuscript.
So this was kind of anon-confrontational way for me
to sort of exactly edge in andjust get some feelers.
And I, I really targeted thecompetitions that offered
feedback, like, if you didn'twin, you got a bit of feedback
(24:20):
as to why.
And I was just like, great, likealmost free feedback.
I get eyes on the manuscript andthey'll tell me something, um,
that I can do better.
So I entered three competitionsat the same time, and two of
them I didn't.
Do you remember what
Natasha Rai (24:35):
they were?
Sally Gould (24:36):
Are one was the A-S-A-C-A-E mentorship prize,
and I don't actually rememberthe other two.
They're Australian basedcompetition, maybe Orka.
Mm-hmm.
And I can't remember the thirdone.
So.
So from memory, there weren't
Natasha Rai (24:51):
memoir specific, right?
There were a kind of adultmanuscripts,
Sally Gould (24:55):
correct.
Yeah,
Natasha Rai (24:56):
yeah,
Sally Gould (24:56):
yeah.
And that's the other thing, justtrying to, um.
I'm very meticulous at readingall the instructions, but
there's so many, and they reallywant you to follow those
guidelines about what you submitand whether you're eligible and
you've done all the components.
And I think that's a reallyimportant, important part that
you can easily make sure you'redoing the right steps when
you're submitting, because thereare some really tight guidelines
(25:19):
on some of them.
Um, so yeah, I submitted to thethree.
Um.
Around a similar time.
Uh, I'd also checked that youcould be submitted to each of
them while being submitted toothers.
'cause that's another trick foryoung players.
Yes.
Some of them say you can't besubmitted to anyone else while
you're in this competition.
Um, and other things.
So I got some feedback, whichagain, I went through my same
(25:42):
process of being like, oh, theydunno what they're talking
about.
They've only read the first fivepages or, you know, whatever.
But I ended up actually winningthe um.
Narrative nonfiction componentof the A-S-A-C-A mentorship
award prize.
Natasha Rai (25:58):
Amazing.
Sally Gould (25:58):
Um, which was exactly what I needed.
I didn't know it at the time,but it meant a 12 month
mentorship, um, with like aperson in the industry.
So I worked with a publisher,um, and there was no guarantee
for any deals at the end.
Mm-hmm.
And my particular publisher wasfrom.
Um, a publishing house thatwouldn't publish my book anyway.
(26:22):
Um, but she was sort of, uh,memoir specific.
Mm-hmm.
And we worked, we didn't evenneed the whole 12 months.
Um, she said my manuscript was,um, super tidy when she first
got it, which I was like, yes,all the hard workers paid off
and all those ridiculous amountsof edits and rereads and
whatnot.
So she was really impressed withhow tidy it was.
(26:43):
She did some really importantwork with me around, um, the
passing of time and anchoringthings in time, which is just
another lesson I needed tolearn.
Um, and again, just thataccessibility for the reader.
We tightened a few things,clarified a few, um, bits of
terminology and things just tomake it super accessible for
everyone.
(27:03):
And then we finished up maybeafter about eight months and
she's just like.
I really believe this should bepublished, that's gonna be
published, um, now go kind of,kind of thing.
So she also incredible.
Natasha Rai (27:14):
Um, that must have just really lifted.
You like to hear that from aprofessional to say, this is
publishable and it should bepublished.
Sally Gould (27:21):
Yeah, I, I, yeah, I probably cried or could have
cried or, you know, all thosethings because it was the first
time I'd heard, and maybe thefirst time I'd believed that,
okay, there's something in this.
And someone with industryknowledge believes in me as
well.
So, yeah, so she was sort oflike, I can introduce you, like
(27:42):
to some agents, if that wouldkind of help, which was, I think
beyond her scope, she was verylovely and helpful.
Um, but that kind of led to afew nos, um, from some agents,
which I, at this point, it feelslike you're burning each chance,
every time you're gonna go.
Um, but I ended up just havingthis sort of, uh.
(28:04):
I don't know, a gut feel aboutan agency, um, which is now a
four literary.
Mm-hmm.
And I submitted just in theirlike general submissions.
So no introductions, no headstarts, just online portal was
open at the time.
I read all of the criteria, madesure I submitted exactly it, and
then just sat in that waiting ofwho knows.
(28:28):
And, and a lot of them are like,oh, if you don't hear from us in
six months, it's a no.
You literally like, well Icould, I'm gonna wait five
exactly six months.
And then it's just, and thengive up the hope.
Yeah.
It's just a know if I hearnothing.
It's such a difficult process.
And when you look at, if you dothat each time,'cause you're not
submitting to multiple people atonce, you think that could be
(28:51):
two years, three years, gone.
Just submitting, waiting,hearing nothing, letting it
lapse, going to the next one.
And so I kind of reached thatpoint, just getting a little bit
deflated, but I had a bit ofhope.
I don't know why, but I kind ofmanifested it.
I was talking to a close friendof mine and I said, I've
submitted, I've got a goodfeeling about this one.
Um, and then I heard from TomGilliat, my now agent, and he
(29:15):
just emailed on, I think it wasa.
Thursday saying, can I have thefull manuscript?
He said, sorry for the delay.
And it had been two weeks.
I was like, that's no delay.
Like I was in for the long haulhere, Tom.
So he said, sorry for the delay.
Sorry I haven't gotten back toyou.
Um, I'd love to read the fullmanuscript.
And I thought, okay, this is agood sign.
Like it could still be a no fromhere.
But I sent it away that day.
(29:38):
Um, and he read it over theweekend and I'd sort of
manifested to this friend ofmine when I was chatting.
I said, ah.
Tom, this guy Tom, he's gonnalove it.
He's gonna read it in a weekend.
He's gonna call me on Monday,he's gonna want agent me.
It's all gonna be great.
Just joking, but thinking, youknow what, what a, how amazing
if that would happen.
Yes.
Yeah.
So he read it over the weekend.
He emailed me on the Monday.
(29:59):
We had a call on the Wednesdayand we moved forward into seeing
agents inside him.
So good.
Yeah.
So good.
Yeah.
I remember when he called me, I,um, he sort of said, oh, I've
just read the book.
Um, I love it.
And I was like, but, and he sayslike, oh, no, no, there's no,
there's no but.
And I was like, but he's like,no, no.
(30:20):
This is a good news call.
I was like, oh.
I couldn't believe it.
I just, yeah.
To, to again hear like, this isa good book.
It's worth reading.
Um, and Tom's got so many yearsof experience in the publishing
industry.
I knew that if he was taking meon, he was fairly confident that
he was gonna find me.
A publishing deal.
Emily Stewart (30:45):
Hello.
My name's Emily Stewart,sometimes known as Sensible,
Emily and my book SensibleMoney, published by A BC Books
and Harper Collins came out onthe 2nd of July.
Sensible money is a guide tohelp you get better at managing
your money.
It's really about making themost.
Of the money that you have andhopefully go from surviving to
(31:08):
thriving when it comes to yourfinances.
And the reason I wrote it is I'ma finance journalist with the A,
B, C, and I have been for manyyears, and I've reported on and
spoken to a lot of people whohave suffered during this cost
of living crisis.
People are really struggling andthere was a real need for a book
that provided the skills and theinformation for people, as well
(31:28):
as the experience with financereporting.
I've also got the education toback it up, so I've got commerce
and arts degrees.
I've also done a Master's ofBusiness Administration at
Melbourne Business School.
And I'm one of the trulyindependent money experts.
There's no brand deals oradvertising.
It's all just about getting thebest information.
So I've really put everything Iknow about a whole lot of money
(31:51):
topics, how to get the bestdeals on things, ideas for
saving, how to save up for ahouse, and sort of that process
of purchasing a house, how tosort out your super, get out of
debt, all those key issues thatwere not taught in school.
And many money books tell youexactly what to do, write down
to the product that you shouldbuy.
But I really wanted mine to bedifferent.
(32:12):
I wanted to empower people sothat they had the skills to make
their own financial decisions.
So it's all about giving peopleskills that will last them their
lifetime, and it could be lifechanging for people.
I got my book deal.
Almost as my second child wasbeing born.
So I wrote it with a newborn anda and a toddler, so I understand
(32:34):
what it's like trying to balancethe family budget.
So happy reading and staysensible everyone.
Natasha Rai (32:44):
And so from that moment where he took you one as
his client, how long did it taketo get your publishing contract?
Sally Gould (32:54):
Not very long at all.
So, um, there's a little bit oftime you lose, I think, with,
uh, looking over contracts andthings and getting that signed
and sorted.
And that's a very uncomfortablespace for me.
Um, it's not.
My area of comfort or expertise.
So I felt quite stressed gettingall that just sorted.
Um, but my husband, his workindustry is very into contracts,
(33:17):
so he's like, oh, this is suchan everyday thing.
But for me in the work I do, I'mlike, seems like such a big deal
and all these legal terminologyand signing this stuff, it seems
very big, but it was all quitesmooth in the end.
It just takes time.
Um, but within a couple of weeksafter that, Tom had.
I think I met with sixpublishing houses and I, he had
five offers on the table.
Natasha Rai (33:38):
Oh, so amazing.
It's like the dream, isn't it?
Sally Gould (33:40):
It is.
And Thomas was sort of justlike, oh yeah, this is what I
expected.
I was like, this is not what Iexpected at all.
This is unbelievable.
I cannot believe it.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (33:52):
Um, and then once you went ahead and signed with
Simon Schuster, right?
Yep.
Yeah.
So there was an another editinground.
Yep.
So, so I'm really interested,Sally, because, um, and once
again, I don't wanna giveanything away to people who
haven't read your memoir yet,but I know that there are parts
(34:13):
of it that are challenging as areader, so it might have been
challenging for you to kind ofrevisit or work on them again.
How did you look after yourselfduring those, that kind of
rounds of editing where you kindof knew that you're not.
Working on this to make itbetter like you are, but also
there is, there will be now anendpoint where it will be
(34:35):
published.
Was that different for you?
Sally Gould (34:38):
Yes.
I think, uh, my mind tried toprotect me in not even
considering the possibility thatpeople were going to read it.
I know that sounds ridiculous,but Nope,
Natasha Rai (34:48):
not at all.
Actually,
Sally Gould (34:50):
I very much, um, was writing just a product that
I was proud of that I wanted tobe in the book.
And that's as far as I sort ofallowed myself to think.
I didn't wanna go down therabbit hole of what's this
person gonna think or what'sthat person gonna think or what,
what is anyone gonna say aboutit or what's everyone's opinion
gonna be about it?
(35:10):
Because I just knew that wasjust, that's actually out of my
control and all I could controlwas doing my best to create a
product, a finished product thatI was happy with that was, um,
authentic and genuine.
And that, yeah, I'd be proud tosay yes.
I wrote that and that's as faras I think I allowed it.
And it wasn't until I submittedthe final manuscript after the
(35:34):
final sort of proofread that Ihad this moment and I thought,
people are gonna read this.
Uh, yeah.
But I think it, it helped mevery much just to.
Think of something I wanted tobe proud of putting out there
and not so much about how thatwas gonna be responded to.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (35:54):
Which I really like because it just reframes it
into, again, the, the quality ofthe work and the standards that
you've set yourself.
Yes.
As opposed to that personal typeof feedback or critique.
Sally Gould (36:07):
Yes.
I think also the.
The thing I was most afraid ofis that I wasn't a good enough
writer to pull it off.
I trusted my skills as aparamedic and I trusted that I'd
represented my journey, um, inits truest sense, and I was
content with that.
The bit that I felt worriedabout was whether I was righty
(36:31):
enough to pull it off perhaps.
Natasha Rai (36:33):
Is that still a worry now?
Sally Gould (36:36):
Uh, yeah.
I still feel.
Uh, very novice in this space.
Yeah, I still enjoy it and Ithink that it shouldn't be a
barrier if you don't thinkyou're good enough.
Um, because I've got a publishedbook, right?
Like that's fact.
I can't argue with that.
I'm a published author.
Um, but I think it's hard whenin my paramedic work I'm so high
(37:01):
up in my chosen area and I holdmyself to such a high standard.
To me that's more measurablethan my writing, which is a bit
more subjective perhaps.
Natasha Rai (37:13):
Mm-hmm.
And you know, on that point aswell, in terms of feedback, um,
frog's been out for.
In July was that we said three.
Three and a bit months.
Yeah, just over
Sally Gould (37:25):
three months.
Natasha Rai (37:26):
Yeah.
And I know that at the beginningwhen it first came out, you had
a lot of publicity, um, eventsthat you did to promote the
book.
And um, I'm also aware thatyou've received some, sometimes
bizarre, sometimes negativefeedback.
Mm.
How do you look after yourself?
Like, what do you do?
Do you respond to them?
Do you ignore them?
(37:46):
Do you block them?
Sally Gould (37:48):
Yeah.
So.
In terms of people directly,directly contacting me,
everything has been generallypositive feedback, so people
would take the time to directmessage me.
And get in contact are normallyjust absolutely heartwarming,
lovely stories, peopleconnecting, people building
better relationships with theirrelatives as a result, people
(38:09):
having insight into theirparamedic relatives lives.
Um, just such wonderful things.
Um, the, the space where it getssuper toxic, um, and people.
I feel like they have a right tocomment on you are, especially
things where parts of my writinghas been taken out of context,
or it's just a small excerpt, orit's an excerpt within an
(38:33):
article that's been written bysomeone else, or it's a, you
know, attention grabbingheadline that I didn't write.
Um.
And people have read the firstparagraph or made up an opinion
and just wanna go to town onhaving their say about something
that they've got their knickersin or not about.
Um, and that happens online in,you know, Facebook comments, um,
(38:56):
Instagram comments on thingsthat are not, that I haven't
directly posted or had controlover.
And I think when the book firstcame out.
I was struggling to look at thatstuff because, just because I
didn't like watching myself ontv and so I was able to sort of
avoid that.
Just I don't need to see it.
(39:17):
I was there, I said, what?
I said I can't change it, andthen I'll just let it exist now
out in the ether.
But I thought at a point, oh,I'm feeling pretty strong.
I've got some good feedback.
And I decided to look at somecomments about, um, an article
that was posted in one of thepapers and.
I was, uh, shocked, uh, by yeah,what people think they have a
(39:40):
right to comment on.
And so I, I found that reallydifficult, uh, really upsetting.
But I think originally my main,uh, method of dealing with it
was I just set a rule.
I'm not gonna look 100% notgonna look, so I don't look at.
Any reviews?
Any comments, any commentsposted on any articles, um,
(40:02):
excerpts, anything online?
Um, blanket rule?
I don't Look.
And the other thing is if Iaccidentally come across one of
these, I created a little noteon my phone of things just to
remind myself of that I can gointo and just reflect on
because, um, it's easy to feelthe hate in people's words and
to let that sort of flow intowhat you believe about yourself.
(40:23):
But the things I wanted toremind myself were.
They're written by people thatdon't know me, that people don't
do what I do, that haven't beenthrough what I've been through.
Um, and they're, you know,they're not my friends and their
thoughts and opinions on me donot change my value or worth as
a human, and nor does it changethe respect that my friends and
(40:46):
family have for me.
So just really separating outthat that's happening out there
and that energy doesn't actuallyhave to affect anything.
For me has been reallyimportant.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (40:57):
Yeah.
And you know, like I really,when you initially shared some,
you didn't share the actualfeedback, but you said you'd
received some kind of negativefeedback.
I was so shocked as well,because I was thinking how like,
I don't know, it's just, I.
When people write memoir, andespecially when you're writing
not just about yourvulnerability, but helping and
(41:18):
supporting people in their mostvulnerable, intense moments,
it's like, how can you hatethat?
I just don't understand.
So I really, yeah, go on.
I,
Sally Gould (41:27):
I also thought that the feedback that was gonna
upset me the most would be likewriting feedback, because that's
what I felt most vulnerableabout.
Um, I haven't received any ofthat.
Like if someone came at me andsaid like, oh, the pacing of
this chapter was.
Terrible, and this was poorlydescribed or whatever.
Great.
Like I'd love to look into thatbecause if, when I write my next
(41:47):
book, uh, it can be betterbecause of that feedback.
But none of it is, um,constructive criticism or about
writing.
It's just like a person.
Yeah.
Me as a person is apparentlyoffended.
Some people who don't even knowme.
Natasha Rai (42:02):
Yeah.
And you know, just that.
I mean, I, I'm, in my head I wascalling an evidence log of like
all the things that mean thatthis feedback isn't worth your
attention or your time.
Um, also all the other feedbackthat you've received from people
you dunno, who are like, I lovethis and I understand that this
is, you know, my family members'experience and that I hope goes
(42:26):
somewhere as well to kind ofalleviating the, the hurt from
the, the toxic stuff.
Sally Gould (42:34):
Yeah, it, it's, um, thankfully, yeah, far outweighs,
um, the toxic stuff.
But just reminding myself thatit's never gonna be worth giving
those people the time of day orany, not even a second of my
time to look at the comments.
Yeah.
It's just not worth it.
Natasha Rai (42:47):
Good advice.
And I'm, I'm really sorry thatthat was part of your
experience.
'cause it's so, it's so hard a,getting a book published b being
visible like that, so yeah,it's, it sucks.
Sally Gould (42:59):
Yeah, it, it does.
But mm-hmm.
I think it says a lot more aboutthem than it does about
Natasha Rai (43:03):
me.
Oh, for sure.
For sure.
Yeah.
But yeah.
So what does your writingpractice look like now?
Sally Gould (43:10):
So now that I originally set out just to write
this one book, uh, so I've foundthat once I lost the focus of
having this book deadline andthe target of having it on a
shelf was gone.
The structure of writing kind offlew out the window.
Um, I've also got two young kidsand so I felt like it was time
for a season where I put a bitmore energy back into them and
(43:32):
being a bit more present and notbehind the laptop typing at all
hours.
Um, that said, I'm still, I'vegot so many ideas ticking over,
um, in my mind and for a month,um, I did just do like a daily
thing and it was just a sit downfor 10 minutes'cause.
I know if I can convince myselfto sit down for 10 minutes, it
(43:52):
will often turn into more than10 minutes.
Um, and that worked quite welljust to get some ideas down.
But I find it so hard to startwriting something that I don't
know where it's gonna end up.
And that's just part of mypersonality is that until I've
got a fully formed idea, I findit hard to chip away at anything
because it feels like there'spotential.
(44:13):
It'll be lost time.
And I know that's superdestructive to me as a writer
because it doesn't.
Just let me foster the creativeside and the art and letting you
know, whatever happens happen.
Um, but at the moment, I thinkI'm just torn on a couple of
ideas that I wanna write about.
Um, it would be nonfictionagain.
Mm-hmm.
Um,
Natasha Rai (44:33):
so, so just on that point about writing, when you
don't really know where it'sgoing mm-hmm.
Do you try and plot then, or atleast have you know how you,
'cause you mentioned with Frogyou discovered or you worked
specifically very consciously onarcs.
Mm.
So with your ideas now, like isthat a possibility or are the
ideas still too new to figurethat out yet?
Sally Gould (44:55):
I think there's too new, so I'm in that phase of
trying to play around with ideasand occasionally I'll just flesh
out a scene because I feel likeparticularly drawn to it.
Um, but I'm just not sure whereit's going at the moment.
So I don't know.
I'm kind of, I can't say that's
Natasha Rai (45:10):
making you uncomfortable.
Sally Gould (45:12):
It, I'm uncomfortable, but I'm trying to
remain curious about it.
Natasha Rai (45:15):
Yeah.
So this, this is a verydifferent experience then
because, you know, frogobviously came out of, um,
journal entries and reflectionson your clinical practice.
So this, this sounds like a verydifferent approach even from the
beginning.
'cause you're phys notphysically, but you.
Actively sitting down to writesomething.
Yeah.
Sounds quite different.
Sally Gould (45:35):
Yeah.
With Frog, I had the fleshed outfull journals from the ride
along, and even for years afterthat, sometimes it would just be
like a couple of words on alittle notepad about a job.
But I remember the job exactly.
So reproducing that was nothard.
Whereas this is just, I don'tknow, so much more open.
It's so much more, yeah.
To explore and decide what Iwanna put on the page.
(45:57):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (45:58):
And I know this is just, uh, very newish ideas, but
in, in the ideas, is there atemptation or a desire to
revisit paramedicine?
Sally Gould (46:11):
I've had a few people contact me and say, oh, I
wanted to read more of Frog.
Can you do a sequel?
And that type of thing.
Um, it's certainly not gonna bea sequel.
I don't feel like I've gotenough to say that's that
similar, that would flow on fromFrog.
I think Frog is the standalonekind of piece in that sense.
Um, I also think that's part ofthe thing I'm trying to figure
(46:32):
out is that the paramedicine isso much of my identity and plays
such a role in my life that, youknow, half of my days are days
on at at work and half of thedays at home where the other
life kind of happens.
So how do you write about thatstuff in life without the work,
which makes up such a huge partof my time throughout the week.
Mm.
Um, yeah, that's another balanceI guess I'm trying to find.
(46:56):
Maybe it's harder because I'mnow thinking about what a reader
would like to read with Frog.
I didn't have that thought.
I just had, I'm writing this forme because I want to, and now
the IT.
Not, it's ruined it, but you getwhat I mean when you get Yeah.
You have additional
Natasha Rai (47:13):
things you have to consider now.
Sally Gould (47:14):
Yeah.
That makes it more complicatedand puts more weight on it and
just means you're thinking aboutmore things as you go instead of
just enjoying writing.
Natasha Rai (47:22):
Yeah, for sure.
And I'm just a co we've just gottime for a couple more
questions.
So, um, how have your colleaguesand peers received frog?
Sally Gould (47:33):
Yeah, really, really well.
Um, I've had nothing but goodfeedback, thankfully from them.
Um, a lot of them, some willprivate message and just say,
thank you so much for includingthe EL elements that you did.
'cause they can resonate withit, but they hadn't had the
courage to, to speak up about itor to label it or to get help
for it.
And I think that's superrewarding.
(47:53):
Um, people, yeah.
Colleagues that have spoken tome see themselves in the book
and that's, that was thepurpose.
Not that it was my story, thatit was just a paramedic story
that.
Every paramedic has done jobssimilar and can see themselves
in, in that space.
So yeah,
Natasha Rai (48:08):
visibility, right?
Sally Gould (48:09):
Yeah.
And I think that's superimportant for them because the
work we are doing is so uniqueand not many people understand
it.
So they're feeling seen andvalidated that there's something
out there that they can give tofriends and family and say, Hey,
this is what I do.
This is the way I am, the way Iam.
This is why I'm tired andgrumpy.
This is why my humor is sowarped.
Um, and the other one I'vereceived feedback from is.
(48:31):
The paramedics relatives.
So they've passed it on to theirmom or their sister or their
cousin or whoever.
And I've received, they'vepassed on all of their messages
saying, oh, mom said that thisshould be mandatory reading for
all relatives of paramedics andthose types of things.
So that's been
Natasha Rai (48:46):
amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I really love, I love that.
And so Sally, um, in addition toeverything that you've so
generously shared, do you haveany tips or maybe.
Things for people to think aboutif they are a pub, trying to
pursue a traditional publishingdeal or publishing or writing a
memoir and or any of those.
Sally Gould (49:09):
I think you don't have
Natasha Rai (49:09):
to answer all those three things.
Just, yeah, anything that comesto mind.
Yeah,
Sally Gould (49:13):
I think the competitions is probably a big
tip.
Um, it was just such a goodstarting point for me that felt
non-threatening, uh, but a waythat I could access feedback and
start getting a little bit oftraction and it felt like.
A good place to start.
So I'd say if you're in thatphase and you are not for
whatever reason, not quite readyto submit, want a bit more, um,
(49:35):
advice or feedback, do thoseonline manuscript assessments,
do the competitions and juststart getting that little bit of
feedback and yeah.
And.
Be okay with the feedback.
Natasha Rai (49:47):
Yeah.
I mean, you know, if you giveyourself time with any type of
feedback, you allow it to sinkin.
Mm-hmm.
And especially, I think it, thatreally hals back to what you
were saying before.
If you don't know anyone in theindustry and you don't have
right of friends or communityyet, that's a really nice way of
getting, um, some feedback,right?
Sally Gould (50:04):
Yeah.
And I think in this day and agewhere you can Google so much, it
can be overwhelming with theinformation, but if you rely on.
Those local resources that youknow are reputable.
It's such a good place to startbecause places like the A SA
website have so much informationand courses and day events and
writing spaces and there'sactually so much out there that
(50:25):
I didn't realize.
And that was a another goodnon-threatening way to start
just having a look at onlineresources and seeing if you
could apply anything that youlearned to the manuscript you've
got and just one step at a time.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (50:37):
Love it.
Thank you so much, Sally, forjoining me today.
It was a real pleasure to talkto you.
Sally Gould (50:43):
Thank you so much for having me.
Natasha Rai (50:49):
Having listened to my chat with Sally Gould,
there's one theme that reallystruck me and that is the
intention that I'm setting forlisteners who are working on a
project or who are thinkingabout getting into a project
over the next month.
So.
Time.
So Sally talked a lot about thetime that she takes after she
(51:09):
gets feedback, the time that shetook to work on her manuscript.
And time seems to be a themethat has come up for me
personally over the last fewweeks as well.
So here is the intention.
You can use time in any of thefollowing ways if you are
working on something.
So taking a break from yourmanuscript.
Giving it some time to prove, ifyou will, and then coming back
(51:33):
to it to have a look at it.
So if you have just finishedsomething, maybe you could leave
it aside and come back to it atthe end of the month.
If you are not working onsomething, maybe you could
return to something old.
So something that you've workedon previously.
And you haven't looked at for awhile.
Have a look now.
Maybe use the next month or thenext few weeks to come at that
(51:57):
with fresh eyes and see whatcomes up for you.
What do you notice?
What are some things that youcan polish or improve or make
better or what leaps out at you?
And that is of course, thebenefit of time.
And if you are working onsomething and you're right in
the middle of it and you don'thave the capacity right now, to
(52:17):
put it aside, how about lookingat how you treat time in your
manuscript?
So Sally talks a little bitabout one of the, um, aspects of
her manuscript that was reallyhelped by her mentorship was
about anchoring her story intime.
So have a look at yourmanuscript and see how you've
anchored your story or plot intime.
(52:39):
And um, in our next catch up,Madeline, Tina and I will be
chatting about this intentionand how it kind of influenced
our work.
Thanks.
Tina Strachan (52:55):
Thank you for listening to the book Deal
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new apps drop and to keep
up to date with what the pod isdoing.
You can also find us onInstagram.
This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover
by your host, Natasha Rai.
I'll be bringing you even moredebut and season authors as they
talk about their path topublication.
Madeleine Cleary (00:26):
The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters, which it's recorded
on and pays respect to theirelders past, present, and
emerging.
Natasha Rai (00:39):
sally Gould has been a paramedic for 14 years
and counting and still finds joyin her self-proclaimed dream
job.
The professional and personalgrowth she experienced on the
frontline and the journals shekept during her early years in
the field were the inspirationfor her memoir Frog.
Her draft manuscript won thenarrative nonfiction category in
(01:00):
the 2023 A SA ca Awardmentorship program.
When she's not in uniform, Sallycan be found tutoring, paramedic
students, or immersed in herwriting.
She spends the rest of her daysoff nurturing herself through
running bush, walking, baking,attending the theater, and
spending time with family andfriends.
(01:21):
Sally lives in Sydney with herhusband and their two children.
Hello, Sally Gould.
Welcome to the Book Dealpodcast.
Good morning, Natasha.
How are you?
Yeah, I'm well, thanks.
How are you?
Oh, I'm fine, thank you.
Um, thanks for joining me today.
Uh, just wanted to talk to youabout your memoir, frog.
(01:44):
Yes.
And maybe some publicationjourney stuff and, you know,
just a bunch of other thingsthat I think are very
interesting.
Mm-hmm.
Sounds good.
So how do you feel about, uh,giving me your elevator pitch
for Frog?
It's
Sally Gould (01:56):
not my favorite thing to do.
Um, I should have been preparedfor this one, but I'm not.
Um, frog is my story from when Istarted as a university
ride-along paramedic student upuntil when I become an intensive
care paramedic.
So I think it's told through thelens of all the patients that I
see, well, a bunch of thepatients that I see over that
(02:17):
time period, but it's much moreabout my growth as a clinician
and as a person throughout thattime period.
Natasha Rai (02:25):
That was
Sally Gould (02:25):
pretty good.
Yes.
Nailed it.
We're off to a good start.
Natasha Rai (02:29):
Um, look, I've read it and I absolutely loved it as
you know,'cause I was messagingyou the whole time I was reading
it.
Um, I just think it's amazingbecause it helped me really get
an insight into what a typicalshift might look like or even a
non-typical shift and just thepressures that you are under
when you're working in that veryhigh stress situation.
(02:49):
So.
I loved reading it to just getthat insight.
Parts of it were really hard toread, I'll be honest, um,
because of the case studies thatyou include.
But again, it's all that uniquekind of perspective into your
world, I guess, your workingworld.
Sally Gould (03:05):
Yeah, I think that was one of the goals when
writing the book is I've reallyenjoyed opening the doors, so to
speak, on the ambulance andshowing people my version of
what it's really like.
Yeah.
Not the glossy TV version, butyou know, really put the reader
inside my head.
Natasha Rai (03:19):
And you did.
So thank you for that.
Now, I've heard you speak aboutyour book, and I know that you,
it came out of a diary that youkept for many years.
Is diary the right word?
Sally Gould (03:30):
Yeah, when?
When I started as a universitystudent, we had to keep a
clinical log of all the patientsthat we saw just to tick off
that component of the place.
But I felt like that was soobjective and it wasn't covering
near enough of the experience,and I wanted to capture
everything.
Maybe that's the writer in me.
I wanted to capture the way theparamedics walked and the how
(03:52):
they carried their gear and whatthey spoke about between jobs
and the way they joked and theirdark humor.
And so I kept my own journal ordiary, um, of my time in that
initial placement.
Um, just trying to capture allthe weird and wonderful things I
was seeing.
Natasha Rai (04:06):
Mm-hmm.
At what point did you start tolook at your, kind of, your
entries and reflect on it andfeel that maybe you would like
to have them published?
Sally Gould (04:21):
Uh, it took a long time.
Mm-hmm.
It was certainly never theintention with the original
journal.
Um, and nor was it with over thefollowing years, I wasn't
intending to turn it into abook.
It was purely for my ownreflection, I guess, to capture
that time, to capture my growth,to be able to reflect on it, um,
to learn from it.
But yeah, it took years until Istarted to sort of see a story
(04:44):
emerging from what I'd beenthrough to think, ah, maybe
someone else might be interestedin this.
But it certainly wasn't theintention from the start.
Natasha Rai (04:52):
And that, that time when you started to think about
someone else might beinterested, were you kind of
thinking about like otherparamedics or people generally?
Sally Gould (05:00):
I was certainly, it was limited.
I thought my colleagues wouldprobably really like this'cause
I thought they could relate toit.
They'd see themselves in it.
And that's kind of where myimagination stopped at that
point, just thinking, oh, mycolleagues would probably enjoy
this.
And then I allowed myself todream a bit and I thought, oh,
maybe like other emergencyservices and frontline workers.
And I thought, oh, well maybetheir friends and family might
(05:21):
enjoy, um, the insight.
And it wasn't until I sort ofgot in contact with people
within the industry that theysaid, oh no, no, there's a much
bigger audience for this that Ireally allowed myself to realize
that.
Natasha Rai (05:32):
Yeah.
Oh wow.
So then what was your kind ofnext steps from that, those kind
of conversations?
How did you begin to go intothat publishing journey?
Sally Gould (05:44):
I think from the start I just wanted to turn the
book into a fully fleshed outbook, and that was just a dream
I had for myself and just a goalI set for myself.
It certainly wasn't, um, apublication dream from the
start.
It was just, I've got all these.
Anecdotes, these stories, thesememories that I've captured.
I wanna write about it, I wannaflesh it out.
(06:05):
I wanna turn it into some sortof, um, whole story with
narrative arc and characterdevelopment.
And I am the character and Ijust enjoyed setting myself that
challenge.
And so it wasn't, I'm gonna getthis published.
It was mm-hmm.
I'd just like to see.
A hobby space where fleshing allof this out and learning the
craft of writing a bit as I go,um, where that gets me, that was
(06:27):
the very start, was just thisstrange dream that all my
friends thought I was a bitcrazy for thinking I was just
gonna write a book.
They're like, why, why would youwrite a book?
I was like, well, why not learnsomething new?
Natasha Rai (06:40):
So how did you figure out how to do all of
that?
Like, you know, the characterarcs the narrative arc.
Sally Gould (06:46):
Uh, I did a lot of just self-directed learning.
So like deep dives, onlinecourses, reading, I mean the
internet's as long as you canfilter correctly as a whole host
of good information.
And I just really, um, focusedon one element at a time.
'cause I found it sooverwhelming trying to learn
something new.
I was very expert as a paramedicand incredibly novice as a
(07:07):
writer and I still feel thatway.
Um, but.
I just did one thing at a time,so perhaps my focus might be on,
um, dialogue.
And so, you know, for a numberof weeks I do this deep dive on
how to write dialogue and how tocapture people's voices and how
much is too much and where itneeds to go and what the purpose
of it is.
And then I'd do a full edit ofthe manuscript just based on
(07:29):
that lesson I'd learned, andthen I'd go on to the next one.
Natasha Rai (07:32):
Oh wow.
I mean, that sounds boththorough and sort of painful.
Sally Gould (07:36):
Oh yes.
Oh yes.
I don't think I did it the easyway.
I think I just.
In and then was like, oh, Iprobably need to actually learn
some technique to this.
And then was sort of trying toback lay all of the learning I
was doing onto the manuscriptthat I had.
So it wasn't easy.
And it wasn't smooth and it tookmaybe longer than it should
have.
But I enjoyed the process, Ienjoyed the challenge.
(07:58):
Um, and I also enjoyed beingable to see the manuscript get
better.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, every time I made thesechanges and.
I guess that was the start ofit, starting to be transformed
into something that wasaccessible for a reader, not
just something that I was doingfor myself.
Natasha Rai (08:14):
Yeah.
And all the kind of researchthat you did and the learning,
are there any courses or um,websites that you remember that
were particularly helpful thatyou wanted to share?
Now you don't have to.
That's a putting you on the spotquestion.
Sally Gould (08:30):
No, that's all right.
I found this lady, um, Wendy,who did a course on me, memoir
writing, uh, for geniuses.
I found a few of her resourcesquite useful.
Um, I also lent on theAustralian Society of Authors.
Um, I signed up to all of thatand did a deep dive of all their
stuff, which was super helpful.
And the Australian WritersCenter as well had some courses,
(08:52):
so just like local, um,accessible, some free, some
paid.
Um.
But yeah, quite accessible frommy lounge at home where I was
doing my hobby writing.
Nice.
And so
Natasha Rai (09:05):
do you remember like kind of what length of time
you took to do this kind of,kind of element by element?
Um, manuscript, structuralrewrite edit?
Sally Gould (09:16):
Um, I'd say probably the most part of a
year.
So I spent a year, the problemwas I hadn't learned that you're
supposed to sort of, well theysay get it all out and then do
an edit.
I was doing a whole lot ofediting as I went because the
perfectionist in me is like, youcan't leave something messy.
So I hated moving on tosomething until I'd tidied.
(09:36):
Um, if I did it all again, I'dprobably do a bit more of a dump
and then fine tune from there.
Natasha Rai (09:42):
Mm-hmm.
Sally Gould (09:42):
So I was doing a bit of an edit as I wrote, and
so that's why it probably tookme over a year to write the
initial manuscript and thenanother year to do all of this
fine tuning before I felt.
I was ready to let anyone elsesort of see it.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (09:54):
Yeah.
And that also is a very muchkind of emerging writer, debut
writer process as well.
Like especially'cause so many ofus write in the dark or in
secret.
Yes.
Or we treat it like a hobby andwe don't think it's can be
anything serious.
So we do, we are very like takegreat pains to make sure it's
(10:15):
perfect, whatever that is forus.
Right?
Mm-hmm.
Correct.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So at the end of the two years,um, what did you have in terms
of your manuscript?
Sally Gould (10:27):
I had a full manuscript, uh, full length
complete manuscript that hadonly been looked over by me.
So it was very much full lengthand fully fleshed out.
And as far as I could get itpersonally, yeah.
Um, I'd like trolled over it.
Multiple edits, multiple readthroughs.
(10:49):
Tried to do some more learning,tweaking, and I just was at the
point I, I had it, it was full,but I couldn't see it anymore.
If that makes sense.
Yeah, it does
Natasha Rai (10:57):
make total sense.
And, you know, um, I talked toother writers about this idea of
the character arc, and I knowyou just said earlier that you
were the character, so to speak.
So with your arc, without givingtoo much away, there is a strong
mental health component and asense of, um, I don't know what
the right word is, like a senseof.
Coming into yourself and youridentity as a paramedic.
(11:21):
Like, I'm not saying thathappened.
I'm trying not to give anythingaway.
I'm saying that there was thedefinite search for that.
Were you consciously aware ofthat type of, um, arc for this
for, for yourself as you werelooking at your case histories?
Or did that emerge kind of inthe process?
Sally Gould (11:40):
Interesting question'cause I started writing
the book a lot earlier than therecent go I had at it.
So maybe 10 years ago now.
I started writing and this, thestuff that happened in the book
hadn't really happened yet.
Um, and so it would've been avery different book.
I ended up losing 20,000 words,um,'cause I didn't save it.
(12:01):
Oh my gosh.
And the computer just died andtook that.
Um, so I had a bit of a breakand I think in that time.
Like a little bit more lifehappened.
Mm-hmm.
And that's where, yeah, I, Itoyed with the ending,'cause I
wrote the book chronologically.
'cause that's how I had thediaries and journals that I was
turning into this story.
And I almost, I toyed with theidea of, of just not including
(12:23):
that as an element for a while.
Mm-hmm.
Just thinking.
Is it too much or was it tooclose to the end?
And all these sorts of things.
And then I had a look down sortof hero's journey and all that
type stuff and thought, oh, thisis just made for this.
So yeah, it, it kind of fellinto place itself.
It wasn't forced, um, it wasn't,the timeline wasn't played with,
(12:44):
it was just what, the way Icropped the end of the book, um,
made it sit in the structurethat it currently is at.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (12:52):
Okay.
So very much time and.
Life have shaped it in a lot ofways, just like you would if
you're running fiction, if youleft it alone for a few years
and you come back to it withfresh eyes.
So I, I'm trying to make a tipout of something that you've
said, which is if you givesomething time, you can really
see the potential of growth init or changes, right?
(13:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Sally Gould (13:15):
And I think if, if I noticed a lot of times I was
trying to push something ortrying to make something fit.
And it didn't.
And I think the more space Igave it, it sorted itself out,
you know, in a weird way.
Natasha Rai (13:27):
Mm-hmm.
Sally Gould (13:27):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (13:28):
So once you couldn't see it anymore, as you
say, um, who did you show it to?
Sally Gould (13:34):
The very first person was actually my sister.
And they say, uh, don't show itto people, you know,'cause
they'll just say, oh, this isamazing.
Um, but I've got a very uniquesister in that she's incredibly
frank and honest, and I love herdearly for that.
Um, she's widely read.
She's not a paramedic, but she'smy sister.
And I just said to her like, Iknow you'll tell me if this is
absolute garbage.
Um, that's what I want.
(13:55):
And she knows there is nosugarcoating in my family.
There's no niceties, there's nosoftening hard messages.
It's just the truth.
Um, so I felt very comfortableshowing her, knowing that she
was gonna tell me the truth, uh,which she did.
Um, and one of her first bits offeedback was, um, you sound like
a psychopath.
Natasha Rai (14:14):
Oh my God.
Okay.
Sally Gould (14:15):
And in, in that, I'd taken these.
Journals and I'd let people intomy head and I'd done nothing to
ease the reader, the nonparamedic reader, into this
horrific world that I'd just ledthem into.
Yeah.
So none of the, none of theclosure on the patient cases,
none of the easing them into anoutcome because I'm like, well,
(14:36):
no, they died.
She's like, yeah, but the readerthought they had a chance.
You need to let them down gentlyhere.
I was like, oh, okay.
Sorry.
Didn't even think of that.
Um, so very useful feedback.
Very honest feedback.
But also kind of gave me a bitof confidence to think, oh,
okay.
She didn't think it was trashand I know she'd tell me if she
was like, this is not worthpursuing.
Yeah.
So she was the very firstperson.
Natasha Rai (14:57):
Okay, great.
So you took the arm psychopath,um, feedback and I worked with
it.
So you did, so you, you changedelements at that point?
Sally Gould (15:06):
Yeah.
It was still an early draft andshe was still very much doing,
um.
Like wide brush stroke feedback.
It wasn't anything fine tuning.
I just said to her the general Iwas after like pacing and what
stories are working and whataren't and that type of thing.
Um, and yeah, she gave me thatfeedback.
Natasha Rai (15:24):
Mm-hmm.
And
Sally Gould (15:25):
yeah, it gave me the confidence.
'cause the next person Iactually got a manuscript
assessment done.
Um, I'm pretty sure it wasthrough the Australian Society
of Authors and that's a paid, ummm-hmm.
Service.
And they looked it.
Maybe it was the first chapter.
I just remember it being areally short piece and just
being like, is that enough?
Is that enough for them to toknow?
(15:45):
And that was the first time I'dgot professional feedback and I
found that very difficult.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (15:51):
Oh, okay.
What was difficult about it?
Sally Gould (15:53):
Um, it was difficult because I.
Because it's my life.
Like it's memoir.
It's not something I've made up.
It's not something I've dreamtof.
It's, it's my life.
And when someone criticizesthat, and the way you've written
about it or the way even feelslike an attack on the way you
responded to something in lifeor the way you felt about
(16:13):
something, which is not, it'stotally not, but it felt a
little bit like an attack.
And maybe I wasn't ready forthat.
And I, I went through thisdistinct process of like that
denial of like, no.
They're wrong.
They don't know what they'retalking about.
That's not the right feedback.
They've misunderstood where Iwas coming from, you know,
getting very defensive about it,and then I'd sort of sit with it
(16:35):
for a bit and then I'd come tothis realization of like as I
processed it, ah, okay, it makesa bit more sense.
Maybe they know what they'retalking about.
Then I'd turn into likeoverwhelm of like, oh, I don't
even know how to start changingall the things they've suggested
and then overcoming that end.
Coming out with a bettermanuscript
Natasha Rai (16:53):
D did.
Looking back and also now thatyou, you are kind of more
accustomed, I guess, to feedbackfrom professionals.
Did, did sitting with it, givingit some time kind of help you
see that maybe some of itmight've been useful or, or that
you could use it in some waythat felt good or right for your
manuscript?
Sally Gould (17:13):
Yes.
Yes.
I, I found my natural instinctwas to just dismiss it and
ignore it, because that feltsafest.
It was protecting me from hurtand from hard work.
And I'd sit with it and I'dnormally wrestle with it for,
you know, a week, maybe twoweeks, and it'd just be on my
mind ticking over, you know,expanding it into different
areas of the book, seeing whatwould change if they were
(17:36):
actually right.
And every time, every time I gotfeedback, I'd get to the end of
it and realize they were right.
They knew what they were talkingabout and the manuscript was
better for it.
But it was, I've now learned tobuild in that time because I
know I'm gonna have that sameresponse every time.
Not as, as, oh for sure.
Dramatic and not as, um,difficult a wrestle.
(17:56):
'cause I'm more open to it.
But now I know.
Give yourself the first few daysto be angry at whoever gave you
the feedback, to be confused, tobe in denial.
Give yourself however long youneed to wrestle with it and
whether it's useful, and thentrust that you'll actually come
out the other end and, and it,you don't have to take on
everything.
But more often than not, there'ssome absolute gems in feedback.
(18:17):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (18:17):
Yeah.
And I, it feels like you've kindof given lots of clues in your
answer to that.
But I was wondering about that,like how you take feedback on
when you're writing memoir,because as you said, these are
things that have happened inyour life and part of your
experience.
Um, so, and correct me if I'mwrong, but it sounded like how
you do it is you really can pullapart the elements in terms of
(18:41):
they're, they're giving you,they're critiquing the style and
the way you've positioned thestory, not the story itself,
right?
Sally Gould (18:48):
Yes.
Yeah.
And, and to distance it, it'snot, they're not criticizing.
My life, the way I responded tothings, the way I feel about
things, how I process things.
They're criticizing the way thatit, the effectiveness of that
translating to the reader'sunderstanding of it.
And there's a massive differenceto that.
Natasha Rai (19:06):
Yeah.
And that helps you come back toit with the kind of a different
set of eyes that it's, as yousaid, it's not critical of you
as opposed.
Sally Gould (19:14):
And then to say, well, if it's not coming across
the correct way to the reader,thanks for flagging it because
this is what I mean, and this issuper important.
It also strengthens your beliefin what you want to stay
untouched in the manuscript.
I think that's also anotherthing.
There's, I learned as I wentthat I can take some feedback
and some of it I can say no andhave a reason for saying no to
(19:36):
and'cause I want it to stay trueto however I wrote it or
whatever happened or whatever itmay be.
But.
I became a bit more decisiveabout what feedback was useful
to me and what wasn't.
Natasha Rai (19:47):
Yeah.
Which is a tough lesson because,you know, especially, um, new or
debut writers, you don't, youdon't really know like what you
can push back on or what youcan, whether you have the
strength or the courage to goNo, because, are you gonna like,
make someone angry or, yeah,it's a hard, it's a hard one.
Sally Gould (20:03):
It is.
I had a delightful editor,Meredith Rose, who I worked with
through, um, Simon and Schuster.
And she is an absolute gun.
Um, I've never met anyone thatworks so efficiently and quickly
and accurately.
Um, very, very clever woman andalso doesn't sugarcoat things.
So that worked well for mebecause she'd just come at me
(20:24):
with it.
But she made it very clear.
She said, you, you can say no.
Do any of these suggestions.
They are my suggestions.
Um, they're coming from me, andyou are the author and you know
the true story and you don'thave to justify it, which.
It was so empowering because I'mso glad she said that.
'cause otherwise I would'vethought, oh, working with my
editor, my editor says whathappens?
(20:44):
And I agree, and they make it abetter book.
And that's the end of story.
But through working with her, Ilearned, oh no, she's, she's
okay.
She's not gonna get offended ifI say no, it's staying this way.
And I, she said, you don't evenneed to justify just that's the
way you want it.
You are the author.
And unless it's something likegrammatically incorrect, she's
not, she's gonna be okay withit.
(21:04):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (21:05):
Which is so amazing because, you know, not all
editors are that clear
Sally Gould (21:10):
in terms
Natasha Rai (21:10):
of what they expect and what they can do for, for,
for a writer.
So that's really good.
Sally Gould (21:14):
Mm.
So I feel like I really workedwith the editor.
I thought that was gonna be morelike a one-sided thing, but it
was very much a could this work?
Could that work?
Are you happy with this?
Like a back and forth, which wasreally good.
Natasha Rai (21:25):
Yeah.
Collaborative, right?
Sally Gould (21:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (21:28):
So at which point Sally did you feel that you were
ready to start submitting?
Or, or was there, I don't know.
Was there even a thought beforethat, as in, should I submit or
do I wanna do this?
Sally Gould (21:41):
So since I'd put in all the hard work to learn all
the things and write this wholemanuscript, and my husband had
looked at me pouring hours of mylife into it, I think we all
kind of expected that I wasgonna do something with it at
this point.
And when I.
Started to realize, okay, it'snot absolute garbage.
Um, I'm still feeling passionateabout it.
I still feel like it's somethingI want out in the world.
(22:01):
I started looking at all thepaths thinking, okay, am I gonna
self-publish this?
Am I gonna look for traditionalpublishing?
Like, how does that even workagain, like all sorts of deep
dives on the internet to try andfigure out like how to publish
book in Australia.
Mm-hmm.
You know, like I was at thatlevel of having yes.
No friends that were writers.
No one I knew had published abook.
I knew no one in the industry,not even related, like all my
(22:25):
contacts are medicine based,which is not helpful when you're
publishing a book.
Um, but then I thought, uh,because I like to set myself a
challenge, I was like, well,let's reach for the stars.
Let's go for a traditionalpublishing deal.
Um, and then I can always comeup with a plan B if I don't get
any traction there.
And then there was the whole.
Do I get an agent?
(22:45):
Do I go to publishing housesagain, just I felt so blind
trying to navigate that industryand that world, not knowing I
didn't wanna take a wrong step,that would mean I couldn't
progress.
You know, as they say, if youapproach too many agents and get
knocked back, then thepublishing houses don't wanna
look at you.
So there's all these sort oflittle things you hear along the
way and you read online.
You think, well, I don't wannashoot myself in the foot and not
(23:08):
be able to.
To sort of getting traction withit.
Natasha Rai (23:11):
And just on that point at that, the, in those
times or the, those moments, itreally does feel like end of the
road stuff.
Like, if you do this, you'llruin your chances forever.
Sally Gould (23:21):
Yes,
Natasha Rai (23:21):
yes.
And it's not always true.
Sally Gould (23:24):
No, but
Natasha Rai (23:25):
I know the feeling.
Yeah.
Sally Gould (23:26):
It, it felt very like, well, don't stuff this up
because one, one place I readsaid, you know, if three agents
have said no, no one else isgonna ever wanna look at you.
Oh.
Which is so
Natasha Rai (23:35):
not true.
Sally Gould (23:36):
So I've got three shots and I've never done this
before.
And that you're out and thenthat's it.
Yeah.
So it felt very, um, big at thetime and looking back now and
knowing a bit more about theindustry and as you would know,
it's not as black and white asthat at all.
No.
Um, but I'd made the decisionto, um, and just some
competitions before I leapt intosubmitting.
(23:59):
'cause the submitting part justfelt a little bit scary.
Yeah.
Since I'd hardly had any.
Industry experts look over themanuscript.
So this was kind of anon-confrontational way for me
to sort of exactly edge in andjust get some feelers.
And I, I really targeted thecompetitions that offered
feedback, like, if you didn'twin, you got a bit of feedback
(24:20):
as to why.
And I was just like, great, likealmost free feedback.
I get eyes on the manuscript andthey'll tell me something, um,
that I can do better.
So I entered three competitionsat the same time, and two of
them I didn't.
Do you remember what
Natasha Rai (24:35):
they were?
Sally Gould (24:36):
Are one was the A-S-A-C-A-E mentorship prize,
and I don't actually rememberthe other two.
They're Australian basedcompetition, maybe Orka.
Mm-hmm.
And I can't remember the thirdone.
So.
So from memory, there weren't
Natasha Rai (24:51):
memoir specific, right?
There were a kind of adultmanuscripts,
Sally Gould (24:55):
correct.
Yeah,
Natasha Rai (24:56):
yeah,
Sally Gould (24:56):
yeah.
And that's the other thing, justtrying to, um.
I'm very meticulous at readingall the instructions, but
there's so many, and they reallywant you to follow those
guidelines about what you submitand whether you're eligible and
you've done all the components.
And I think that's a reallyimportant, important part that
you can easily make sure you'redoing the right steps when
you're submitting, because thereare some really tight guidelines
(25:19):
on some of them.
Um, so yeah, I submitted to thethree.
Um.
Around a similar time.
Uh, I'd also checked that youcould be submitted to each of
them while being submitted toothers.
'cause that's another trick foryoung players.
Yes.
Some of them say you can't besubmitted to anyone else while
you're in this competition.
Um, and other things.
So I got some feedback, whichagain, I went through my same
(25:42):
process of being like, oh, theydunno what they're talking
about.
They've only read the first fivepages or, you know, whatever.
But I ended up actually winningthe um.
Narrative nonfiction componentof the A-S-A-C-A mentorship
award prize.
Natasha Rai (25:58):
Amazing.
Sally Gould (25:58):
Um, which was exactly what I needed.
I didn't know it at the time,but it meant a 12 month
mentorship, um, with like aperson in the industry.
So I worked with a publisher,um, and there was no guarantee
for any deals at the end.
Mm-hmm.
And my particular publisher wasfrom.
Um, a publishing house thatwouldn't publish my book anyway.
(26:22):
Um, but she was sort of, uh,memoir specific.
Mm-hmm.
And we worked, we didn't evenneed the whole 12 months.
Um, she said my manuscript was,um, super tidy when she first
got it, which I was like, yes,all the hard workers paid off
and all those ridiculous amountsof edits and rereads and
whatnot.
So she was really impressed withhow tidy it was.
(26:43):
She did some really importantwork with me around, um, the
passing of time and anchoringthings in time, which is just
another lesson I needed tolearn.
Um, and again, just thataccessibility for the reader.
We tightened a few things,clarified a few, um, bits of
terminology and things just tomake it super accessible for
everyone.
(27:03):
And then we finished up maybeafter about eight months and
she's just like.
I really believe this should bepublished, that's gonna be
published, um, now go kind of,kind of thing.
So she also incredible.
Natasha Rai (27:14):
Um, that must have just really lifted.
You like to hear that from aprofessional to say, this is
publishable and it should bepublished.
Sally Gould (27:21):
Yeah, I, I, yeah, I probably cried or could have
cried or, you know, all thosethings because it was the first
time I'd heard, and maybe thefirst time I'd believed that,
okay, there's something in this.
And someone with industryknowledge believes in me as
well.
So, yeah, so she was sort oflike, I can introduce you, like
(27:42):
to some agents, if that wouldkind of help, which was, I think
beyond her scope, she was verylovely and helpful.
Um, but that kind of led to afew nos, um, from some agents,
which I, at this point, it feelslike you're burning each chance,
every time you're gonna go.
Um, but I ended up just havingthis sort of, uh.
(28:04):
I don't know, a gut feel aboutan agency, um, which is now a
four literary.
Mm-hmm.
And I submitted just in theirlike general submissions.
So no introductions, no headstarts, just online portal was
open at the time.
I read all of the criteria, madesure I submitted exactly it, and
then just sat in that waiting ofwho knows.
(28:28):
And, and a lot of them are like,oh, if you don't hear from us in
six months, it's a no.
You literally like, well Icould, I'm gonna wait five
exactly six months.
And then it's just, and thengive up the hope.
Yeah.
It's just a know if I hearnothing.
It's such a difficult process.
And when you look at, if you dothat each time,'cause you're not
submitting to multiple people atonce, you think that could be
(28:51):
two years, three years, gone.
Just submitting, waiting,hearing nothing, letting it
lapse, going to the next one.
And so I kind of reached thatpoint, just getting a little bit
deflated, but I had a bit ofhope.
I don't know why, but I kind ofmanifested it.
I was talking to a close friendof mine and I said, I've
submitted, I've got a goodfeeling about this one.
Um, and then I heard from TomGilliat, my now agent, and he
(29:15):
just emailed on, I think it wasa.
Thursday saying, can I have thefull manuscript?
He said, sorry for the delay.
And it had been two weeks.
I was like, that's no delay.
Like I was in for the long haulhere, Tom.
So he said, sorry for the delay.
Sorry I haven't gotten back toyou.
Um, I'd love to read the fullmanuscript.
And I thought, okay, this is agood sign.
Like it could still be a no fromhere.
But I sent it away that day.
(29:38):
Um, and he read it over theweekend and I'd sort of
manifested to this friend ofmine when I was chatting.
I said, ah.
Tom, this guy Tom, he's gonnalove it.
He's gonna read it in a weekend.
He's gonna call me on Monday,he's gonna want agent me.
It's all gonna be great.
Just joking, but thinking, youknow what, what a, how amazing
if that would happen.
Yes.
Yeah.
So he read it over the weekend.
He emailed me on the Monday.
(29:59):
We had a call on the Wednesdayand we moved forward into seeing
agents inside him.
So good.
Yeah.
So good.
Yeah.
I remember when he called me, I,um, he sort of said, oh, I've
just read the book.
Um, I love it.
And I was like, but, and he sayslike, oh, no, no, there's no,
there's no but.
And I was like, but he's like,no, no.
(30:20):
This is a good news call.
I was like, oh.
I couldn't believe it.
I just, yeah.
To, to again hear like, this isa good book.
It's worth reading.
Um, and Tom's got so many yearsof experience in the publishing
industry.
I knew that if he was taking meon, he was fairly confident that
he was gonna find me.
A publishing deal.
Emily Stewart (30:45):
Hello.
My name's Emily Stewart,sometimes known as Sensible,
Emily and my book SensibleMoney, published by A BC Books
and Harper Collins came out onthe 2nd of July.
Sensible money is a guide tohelp you get better at managing
your money.
It's really about making themost.
Of the money that you have andhopefully go from surviving to
(31:08):
thriving when it comes to yourfinances.
And the reason I wrote it is I'ma finance journalist with the A,
B, C, and I have been for manyyears, and I've reported on and
spoken to a lot of people whohave suffered during this cost
of living crisis.
People are really struggling andthere was a real need for a book
that provided the skills and theinformation for people, as well
(31:28):
as the experience with financereporting.
I've also got the education toback it up, so I've got commerce
and arts degrees.
I've also done a Master's ofBusiness Administration at
Melbourne Business School.
And I'm one of the trulyindependent money experts.
There's no brand deals oradvertising.
It's all just about getting thebest information.
So I've really put everything Iknow about a whole lot of money
(31:51):
topics, how to get the bestdeals on things, ideas for
saving, how to save up for ahouse, and sort of that process
of purchasing a house, how tosort out your super, get out of
debt, all those key issues thatwere not taught in school.
And many money books tell youexactly what to do, write down
to the product that you shouldbuy.
But I really wanted mine to bedifferent.
(32:12):
I wanted to empower people sothat they had the skills to make
their own financial decisions.
So it's all about giving peopleskills that will last them their
lifetime, and it could be lifechanging for people.
I got my book deal.
Almost as my second child wasbeing born.
So I wrote it with a newborn anda and a toddler, so I understand
(32:34):
what it's like trying to balancethe family budget.
So happy reading and staysensible everyone.
Natasha Rai (32:44):
And so from that moment where he took you one as
his client, how long did it taketo get your publishing contract?
Sally Gould (32:54):
Not very long at all.
So, um, there's a little bit oftime you lose, I think, with,
uh, looking over contracts andthings and getting that signed
and sorted.
And that's a very uncomfortablespace for me.
Um, it's not.
My area of comfort or expertise.
So I felt quite stressed gettingall that just sorted.
Um, but my husband, his workindustry is very into contracts,
(33:17):
so he's like, oh, this is suchan everyday thing.
But for me in the work I do, I'mlike, seems like such a big deal
and all these legal terminologyand signing this stuff, it seems
very big, but it was all quitesmooth in the end.
It just takes time.
Um, but within a couple of weeksafter that, Tom had.
I think I met with sixpublishing houses and I, he had
five offers on the table.
Natasha Rai (33:38):
Oh, so amazing.
It's like the dream, isn't it?
Sally Gould (33:40):
It is.
And Thomas was sort of justlike, oh yeah, this is what I
expected.
I was like, this is not what Iexpected at all.
This is unbelievable.
I cannot believe it.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (33:52):
Um, and then once you went ahead and signed with
Simon Schuster, right?
Yep.
Yeah.
So there was an another editinground.
Yep.
So, so I'm really interested,Sally, because, um, and once
again, I don't wanna giveanything away to people who
haven't read your memoir yet,but I know that there are parts
(34:13):
of it that are challenging as areader, so it might have been
challenging for you to kind ofrevisit or work on them again.
How did you look after yourselfduring those, that kind of
rounds of editing where you kindof knew that you're not.
Working on this to make itbetter like you are, but also
there is, there will be now anendpoint where it will be
(34:35):
published.
Was that different for you?
Sally Gould (34:38):
Yes.
I think, uh, my mind tried toprotect me in not even
considering the possibility thatpeople were going to read it.
I know that sounds ridiculous,but Nope,
Natasha Rai (34:48):
not at all.
Actually,
Sally Gould (34:50):
I very much, um, was writing just a product that
I was proud of that I wanted tobe in the book.
And that's as far as I sort ofallowed myself to think.
I didn't wanna go down therabbit hole of what's this
person gonna think or what'sthat person gonna think or what,
what is anyone gonna say aboutit or what's everyone's opinion
gonna be about it?
(35:10):
Because I just knew that wasjust, that's actually out of my
control and all I could controlwas doing my best to create a
product, a finished product thatI was happy with that was, um,
authentic and genuine.
And that, yeah, I'd be proud tosay yes.
I wrote that and that's as faras I think I allowed it.
And it wasn't until I submittedthe final manuscript after the
(35:34):
final sort of proofread that Ihad this moment and I thought,
people are gonna read this.
Uh, yeah.
But I think it, it helped mevery much just to.
Think of something I wanted tobe proud of putting out there
and not so much about how thatwas gonna be responded to.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (35:54):
Which I really like because it just reframes it
into, again, the, the quality ofthe work and the standards that
you've set yourself.
Yes.
As opposed to that personal typeof feedback or critique.
Sally Gould (36:07):
Yes.
I think also the.
The thing I was most afraid ofis that I wasn't a good enough
writer to pull it off.
I trusted my skills as aparamedic and I trusted that I'd
represented my journey, um, inits truest sense, and I was
content with that.
The bit that I felt worriedabout was whether I was righty
(36:31):
enough to pull it off perhaps.
Natasha Rai (36:33):
Is that still a worry now?
Sally Gould (36:36):
Uh, yeah.
I still feel.
Uh, very novice in this space.
Yeah, I still enjoy it and Ithink that it shouldn't be a
barrier if you don't thinkyou're good enough.
Um, because I've got a publishedbook, right?
Like that's fact.
I can't argue with that.
I'm a published author.
Um, but I think it's hard whenin my paramedic work I'm so high
(37:01):
up in my chosen area and I holdmyself to such a high standard.
To me that's more measurablethan my writing, which is a bit
more subjective perhaps.
Natasha Rai (37:13):
Mm-hmm.
And you know, on that point aswell, in terms of feedback, um,
frog's been out for.
In July was that we said three.
Three and a bit months.
Yeah, just over
Sally Gould (37:25):
three months.
Natasha Rai (37:26):
Yeah.
And I know that at the beginningwhen it first came out, you had
a lot of publicity, um, eventsthat you did to promote the
book.
And um, I'm also aware thatyou've received some, sometimes
bizarre, sometimes negativefeedback.
Mm.
How do you look after yourself?
Like, what do you do?
Do you respond to them?
Do you ignore them?
(37:46):
Do you block them?
Sally Gould (37:48):
Yeah.
So.
In terms of people directly,directly contacting me,
everything has been generallypositive feedback, so people
would take the time to directmessage me.
And get in contact are normallyjust absolutely heartwarming,
lovely stories, peopleconnecting, people building
better relationships with theirrelatives as a result, people
(38:09):
having insight into theirparamedic relatives lives.
Um, just such wonderful things.
Um, the, the space where it getssuper toxic, um, and people.
I feel like they have a right tocomment on you are, especially
things where parts of my writinghas been taken out of context,
or it's just a small excerpt, orit's an excerpt within an
(38:33):
article that's been written bysomeone else, or it's a, you
know, attention grabbingheadline that I didn't write.
Um.
And people have read the firstparagraph or made up an opinion
and just wanna go to town onhaving their say about something
that they've got their knickersin or not about.
Um, and that happens online in,you know, Facebook comments, um,
(38:56):
Instagram comments on thingsthat are not, that I haven't
directly posted or had controlover.
And I think when the book firstcame out.
I was struggling to look at thatstuff because, just because I
didn't like watching myself ontv and so I was able to sort of
avoid that.
Just I don't need to see it.
(39:17):
I was there, I said, what?
I said I can't change it, andthen I'll just let it exist now
out in the ether.
But I thought at a point, oh,I'm feeling pretty strong.
I've got some good feedback.
And I decided to look at somecomments about, um, an article
that was posted in one of thepapers and.
I was, uh, shocked, uh, by yeah,what people think they have a
(39:40):
right to comment on.
And so I, I found that reallydifficult, uh, really upsetting.
But I think originally my main,uh, method of dealing with it
was I just set a rule.
I'm not gonna look 100% notgonna look, so I don't look at.
Any reviews?
Any comments, any commentsposted on any articles, um,
(40:02):
excerpts, anything online?
Um, blanket rule?
I don't Look.
And the other thing is if Iaccidentally come across one of
these, I created a little noteon my phone of things just to
remind myself of that I can gointo and just reflect on
because, um, it's easy to feelthe hate in people's words and
to let that sort of flow intowhat you believe about yourself.
(40:23):
But the things I wanted toremind myself were.
They're written by people thatdon't know me, that people don't
do what I do, that haven't beenthrough what I've been through.
Um, and they're, you know,they're not my friends and their
thoughts and opinions on me donot change my value or worth as
a human, and nor does it changethe respect that my friends and
(40:46):
family have for me.
So just really separating outthat that's happening out there
and that energy doesn't actuallyhave to affect anything.
For me has been reallyimportant.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (40:57):
Yeah.
And you know, like I really,when you initially shared some,
you didn't share the actualfeedback, but you said you'd
received some kind of negativefeedback.
I was so shocked as well,because I was thinking how like,
I don't know, it's just, I.
When people write memoir, andespecially when you're writing
not just about yourvulnerability, but helping and
(41:18):
supporting people in their mostvulnerable, intense moments,
it's like, how can you hatethat?
I just don't understand.
So I really, yeah, go on.
I,
Sally Gould (41:27):
I also thought that the feedback that was gonna
upset me the most would be likewriting feedback, because that's
what I felt most vulnerableabout.
Um, I haven't received any ofthat.
Like if someone came at me andsaid like, oh, the pacing of
this chapter was.
Terrible, and this was poorlydescribed or whatever.
Great.
Like I'd love to look into thatbecause if, when I write my next
(41:47):
book, uh, it can be betterbecause of that feedback.
But none of it is, um,constructive criticism or about
writing.
It's just like a person.
Yeah.
Me as a person is apparentlyoffended.
Some people who don't even knowme.
Natasha Rai (42:02):
Yeah.
And you know, just that.
I mean, I, I'm, in my head I wascalling an evidence log of like
all the things that mean thatthis feedback isn't worth your
attention or your time.
Um, also all the other feedbackthat you've received from people
you dunno, who are like, I lovethis and I understand that this
is, you know, my family members'experience and that I hope goes
(42:26):
somewhere as well to kind ofalleviating the, the hurt from
the, the toxic stuff.
Sally Gould (42:34):
Yeah, it, it's, um, thankfully, yeah, far outweighs,
um, the toxic stuff.
But just reminding myself thatit's never gonna be worth giving
those people the time of day orany, not even a second of my
time to look at the comments.
Yeah.
It's just not worth it.
Natasha Rai (42:47):
Good advice.
And I'm, I'm really sorry thatthat was part of your
experience.
'cause it's so, it's so hard a,getting a book published b being
visible like that, so yeah,it's, it sucks.
Sally Gould (42:59):
Yeah, it, it does.
But mm-hmm.
I think it says a lot more aboutthem than it does about
Natasha Rai (43:03):
me.
Oh, for sure.
For sure.
Yeah.
But yeah.
So what does your writingpractice look like now?
Sally Gould (43:10):
So now that I originally set out just to write
this one book, uh, so I've foundthat once I lost the focus of
having this book deadline andthe target of having it on a
shelf was gone.
The structure of writing kind offlew out the window.
Um, I've also got two young kidsand so I felt like it was time
for a season where I put a bitmore energy back into them and
(43:32):
being a bit more present and notbehind the laptop typing at all
hours.
Um, that said, I'm still, I'vegot so many ideas ticking over,
um, in my mind and for a month,um, I did just do like a daily
thing and it was just a sit downfor 10 minutes'cause.
I know if I can convince myselfto sit down for 10 minutes, it
(43:52):
will often turn into more than10 minutes.
Um, and that worked quite welljust to get some ideas down.
But I find it so hard to startwriting something that I don't
know where it's gonna end up.
And that's just part of mypersonality is that until I've
got a fully formed idea, I findit hard to chip away at anything
because it feels like there'spotential.
(44:13):
It'll be lost time.
And I know that's superdestructive to me as a writer
because it doesn't.
Just let me foster the creativeside and the art and letting you
know, whatever happens happen.
Um, but at the moment, I thinkI'm just torn on a couple of
ideas that I wanna write about.
Um, it would be nonfictionagain.
Mm-hmm.
Um,
Natasha Rai (44:33):
so, so just on that point about writing, when you
don't really know where it'sgoing mm-hmm.
Do you try and plot then, or atleast have you know how you,
'cause you mentioned with Frogyou discovered or you worked
specifically very consciously onarcs.
Mm.
So with your ideas now, like isthat a possibility or are the
ideas still too new to figurethat out yet?
Sally Gould (44:55):
I think there's too new, so I'm in that phase of
trying to play around with ideasand occasionally I'll just flesh
out a scene because I feel likeparticularly drawn to it.
Um, but I'm just not sure whereit's going at the moment.
So I don't know.
I'm kind of, I can't say that's
Natasha Rai (45:10):
making you uncomfortable.
Sally Gould (45:12):
It, I'm uncomfortable, but I'm trying to
remain curious about it.
Natasha Rai (45:15):
Yeah.
So this, this is a verydifferent experience then
because, you know, frogobviously came out of, um,
journal entries and reflectionson your clinical practice.
So this, this sounds like a verydifferent approach even from the
beginning.
'cause you're phys notphysically, but you.
Actively sitting down to writesomething.
Yeah.
Sounds quite different.
Sally Gould (45:35):
Yeah.
With Frog, I had the fleshed outfull journals from the ride
along, and even for years afterthat, sometimes it would just be
like a couple of words on alittle notepad about a job.
But I remember the job exactly.
So reproducing that was nothard.
Whereas this is just, I don'tknow, so much more open.
It's so much more, yeah.
To explore and decide what Iwanna put on the page.
(45:57):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (45:58):
And I know this is just, uh, very newish ideas, but
in, in the ideas, is there atemptation or a desire to
revisit paramedicine?
Sally Gould (46:11):
I've had a few people contact me and say, oh, I
wanted to read more of Frog.
Can you do a sequel?
And that type of thing.
Um, it's certainly not gonna bea sequel.
I don't feel like I've gotenough to say that's that
similar, that would flow on fromFrog.
I think Frog is the standalonekind of piece in that sense.
Um, I also think that's part ofthe thing I'm trying to figure
(46:32):
out is that the paramedicine isso much of my identity and plays
such a role in my life that, youknow, half of my days are days
on at at work and half of thedays at home where the other
life kind of happens.
So how do you write about thatstuff in life without the work,
which makes up such a huge partof my time throughout the week.
Mm.
Um, yeah, that's another balanceI guess I'm trying to find.
(46:56):
Maybe it's harder because I'mnow thinking about what a reader
would like to read with Frog.
I didn't have that thought.
I just had, I'm writing this forme because I want to, and now
the IT.
Not, it's ruined it, but you getwhat I mean when you get Yeah.
You have additional
Natasha Rai (47:13):
things you have to consider now.
Sally Gould (47:14):
Yeah.
That makes it more complicatedand puts more weight on it and
just means you're thinking aboutmore things as you go instead of
just enjoying writing.
Natasha Rai (47:22):
Yeah, for sure.
And I'm just a co we've just gottime for a couple more
questions.
So, um, how have your colleaguesand peers received frog?
Sally Gould (47:33):
Yeah, really, really well.
Um, I've had nothing but goodfeedback, thankfully from them.
Um, a lot of them, some willprivate message and just say,
thank you so much for includingthe EL elements that you did.
'cause they can resonate withit, but they hadn't had the
courage to, to speak up about itor to label it or to get help
for it.
And I think that's superrewarding.
(47:53):
Um, people, yeah.
Colleagues that have spoken tome see themselves in the book
and that's, that was thepurpose.
Not that it was my story, thatit was just a paramedic story
that.
Every paramedic has done jobssimilar and can see themselves
in, in that space.
So yeah,
Natasha Rai (48:08):
visibility, right?
Sally Gould (48:09):
Yeah.
And I think that's superimportant for them because the
work we are doing is so uniqueand not many people understand
it.
So they're feeling seen andvalidated that there's something
out there that they can give tofriends and family and say, Hey,
this is what I do.
This is the way I am, the way Iam.
This is why I'm tired andgrumpy.
This is why my humor is sowarped.
Um, and the other one I'vereceived feedback from is.
(48:31):
The paramedics relatives.
So they've passed it on to theirmom or their sister or their
cousin or whoever.
And I've received, they'vepassed on all of their messages
saying, oh, mom said that thisshould be mandatory reading for
all relatives of paramedics andthose types of things.
So that's been
Natasha Rai (48:46):
amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I really love, I love that.
And so Sally, um, in addition toeverything that you've so
generously shared, do you haveany tips or maybe.
Things for people to think aboutif they are a pub, trying to
pursue a traditional publishingdeal or publishing or writing a
memoir and or any of those.
Sally Gould (49:09):
I think you don't have
Natasha Rai (49:09):
to answer all those three things.
Just, yeah, anything that comesto mind.
Yeah,
Sally Gould (49:13):
I think the competitions is probably a big
tip.
Um, it was just such a goodstarting point for me that felt
non-threatening, uh, but a waythat I could access feedback and
start getting a little bit oftraction and it felt like.
A good place to start.
So I'd say if you're in thatphase and you are not for
whatever reason, not quite readyto submit, want a bit more, um,
(49:35):
advice or feedback, do thoseonline manuscript assessments,
do the competitions and juststart getting that little bit of
feedback and yeah.
And.
Be okay with the feedback.
Natasha Rai (49:47):
Yeah.
I mean, you know, if you giveyourself time with any type of
feedback, you allow it to sinkin.
Mm-hmm.
And especially, I think it, thatreally hals back to what you
were saying before.
If you don't know anyone in theindustry and you don't have
right of friends or communityyet, that's a really nice way of
getting, um, some feedback,right?
Sally Gould (50:04):
Yeah.
And I think in this day and agewhere you can Google so much, it
can be overwhelming with theinformation, but if you rely on.
Those local resources that youknow are reputable.
It's such a good place to startbecause places like the A SA
website have so much informationand courses and day events and
writing spaces and there'sactually so much out there that
(50:25):
I didn't realize.
And that was a another goodnon-threatening way to start
just having a look at onlineresources and seeing if you
could apply anything that youlearned to the manuscript you've
got and just one step at a time.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (50:37):
Love it.
Thank you so much, Sally, forjoining me today.
It was a real pleasure to talkto you.
Sally Gould (50:43):
Thank you so much for having me.
Natasha Rai (50:49):
Having listened to my chat with Sally Gould,
there's one theme that reallystruck me and that is the
intention that I'm setting forlisteners who are working on a
project or who are thinkingabout getting into a project
over the next month.
So.
Time.
So Sally talked a lot about thetime that she takes after she
(51:09):
gets feedback, the time that shetook to work on her manuscript.
And time seems to be a themethat has come up for me
personally over the last fewweeks as well.
So here is the intention.
You can use time in any of thefollowing ways if you are
working on something.
So taking a break from yourmanuscript.
Giving it some time to prove, ifyou will, and then coming back
(51:33):
to it to have a look at it.
So if you have just finishedsomething, maybe you could leave
it aside and come back to it atthe end of the month.
If you are not working onsomething, maybe you could
return to something old.
So something that you've workedon previously.
And you haven't looked at for awhile.
Have a look now.
Maybe use the next month or thenext few weeks to come at that
(51:57):
with fresh eyes and see whatcomes up for you.
What do you notice?
What are some things that youcan polish or improve or make
better or what leaps out at you?
And that is of course, thebenefit of time.
And if you are working onsomething and you're right in
the middle of it and you don'thave the capacity right now, to
(52:17):
put it aside, how about lookingat how you treat time in your
manuscript?
So Sally talks a little bitabout one of the, um, aspects of
her manuscript that was reallyhelped by her mentorship was
about anchoring her story intime.
So have a look at yourmanuscript and see how you've
anchored your story or plot intime.
(52:39):
And um, in our next catch up,Madeline, Tina and I will be
chatting about this intentionand how it kind of influenced
our work.
Thanks.
Tina Strachan (52:55):
Thank you for listening to the book Deal
podcast.
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