December 17, 2025 • 45 mins
SPOILER BOOK CLUB: 'The Hiding Place' with Kate Mildenhall
Madeleine leads a spoiler-filled discussion with Kate on her latest novel, The Hiding Place (November 2025, Simon & Schuster). Kate shares insights into the book's development, character choices, and the ethical dilemmas the characters face. Kate discusses her research process, murder plots, star picket fences and death cap mushrooms.
Kate Mildenhall is an author, writing teacher and podcaster. Her debut novel Skylarking was longlisted for Debut Fiction in the 2017 Indie Book Awards and the 2017 Voss Literary Prize. Her second novel, The Mother Fault, was longlisted for the 2021 ABIA General Fiction Book of the Year and shortlisted for the 2021 Aurealis Science Fiction Novel of the Year. The Hummingbird Effect was shortlisted for the 2024 ABIA Literary Fiction Book of the Year and longlisted for the 2024 Stella Prize and the 2024 Indie Book Awards for Fiction. In 2024, Kate released her first picture book, To Stir with Love, illustrated by Jess Racklyeft, shortlisted for the 2025 Indie Book Awards and the 2025 ABIA Children’s Book of the Year and Notable in the CBCA Book Awards for Early Readers. Kate co-hosted The First Time Podcast where she interviewed over 200 Australian and international writers.
00:00 Introduction to the Book Deal Podcast
00:56 Welcome to the Spoiler Book Club
01:50 Characters and Plot Twists
05:35 Writing Challenges and Inspirations
12:35 The Evolution of Key Scenes
22:10 Mapping Out the Novel
23:05 Realizing the Right Structure
23:24 Advice from Fellow Writers
24:15 Pacing and Reader Expectations
24:28 The Climactic Scenes
25:17 Conflicted Feelings About the Ending
26:06 The Final Scene and Its Inspiration
26:40 The Role of Surveillance
27:22 Stella's Motivations
28:10 The Play Within a Play
30:06 Multiple Endings
31:17 Questions from the Audience
35:46 Character Development and Dialogue
37:13 Balancing Realism and Fiction
37:29 Influence of Fellow Writers
39:12 Mushroom Lady and Reader Response
42:33 Research and Realism
43:49 Camping Plans and Final Thoughts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tina Strachan (00:09):
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will
discover the inspiring storiesbehind your favorite books.
Natasha Rai (00:15):
We interview seasoned and debut authors, as
well as publishing industryprofessionals to bring you the
best tips and advice on
x (00:22):
how to get that elusive book deal.
So no matter what's.
Stage of writing your at.
We've got you covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And I'm Natasha Rai.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors
Madeleine Cleary (00:37):
one deal at a time.
The book Deal podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners, the land and waters,which it's recorded on and pays
respect to their elders past,present, and emerging.
Speaker (00:56):
Welcome to the Book Deal Podcasts, first spoiler
book club where we dive betweenthe covers of your favorite
novels.
In this episode, I chat withbestselling and highly acclaimed
author, Kate Mildenhall, and afew other readers and writers
about Kate's latest novel, theHiding Place, and as the name of
this book Club suggests, switchoff now unless you're happy with
(01:16):
all the spoilers.
Also, a language warning forthis episode in case you've got
little ones in the car.
Enjoy.
Madeleine Cleary (01:27):
Kate Mildenhall, welcome back to the
Book Deal podcast.
Kate Mildenhall (01:30):
Thank you so
Kate Mildenhall (2) (01:31):
much, Madeline.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (01:32):
Now a warning for our listeners.
If you've missed all our spoilertags and warnings, this is your
last chance to get out.
Now, if you have not read Kate'snovel, the Hiding Place, or you
don't want to be spoiled, thenthis is your time to leave.
Um, so don't blame us you'vebeen warned.
Kate Mildenhall (01:48):
Yeah.
You have been warned.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (01:50):
Um, so we've got a lot to cover
tonight, Kate.
Um, namely Death by Star PicketFence, uh, death cap, mushroom
gravy, mine shafts.
Highly questionable decisionmaking, and Phil's Bloody Lamb
Kate Mildenhall (02:03):
Ah, that is such a great way to introduce it
and a way that no one has beforebecause they're all spoilers.
I love
Madeleine Cleary (2) (02:11):
Boilers.
This is Spoiler Book Club.
All right.
So I wanna start first about,uh, using your friends' book in
spo.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (02:18):
Um, so you've said quite publicly
before that the Willow CreekCamping crew is not your, your
own camping crew friends.
Um, so I'm just double checkingthat you and your friends
definitely have not covered upany dead bodies.
Kate Mildenhall (02:32):
We have not, or if we have, I am not privy to
this infor information.
So we have not, we have, I haveto say on various occasions we
have.
Hypothetically discussed as agroup, mostly as the, my, like
my girlfriends, if we're away ona girl's weekend, that if for
(02:52):
some reason we killed a body, wekilled someone in or came across
a body, how would we deal withit?
Uh, so we have had that kind ofdiscussion about who would bring
what qualities to the table
Madeleine Cleary (2) (03:04):
What would you bring to the table?
Kate Mildenhall (03:06):
generally, just, um, you know, having
everyone's back.
Uh, I'm not a scientist.
There's one in our group who isthe scientist who we decided
could deal with the forensicsand there was one person who
self-declared that, uh, theywould go to the cops as well.
So, you know, there there was,we are a varied bunch.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (03:25):
I, I actually know that because at
your book launch, uh, at read,oh, you are looking horrified.
Um, I was sitting right next toyour camping crew.
They were against the wall, allof them.
Speaker 5 (03:37):
They were literally,
Madeleine Cleary (2) (03:39):
they were literally against the wall.
Every time you said somethingabout the book characters plot
arcs, um, they would all giveeach other shifty ice.
So I'm just.
Kate Mildenhall (03:51):
What has been discussed is, and I think that
this is really interestingbecause there's that idea of,
um, and, and this is for allwriters of what we don't
recognize, um, what might be ourblind spots.
And, and so what I do know has,has happened is that there are
various offshoot conversationsbetween my friends where they
(04:11):
are saying, oh, that's me.
Do you remember when I did that?
Or that's you, or that's someoneelse.
And then a, um, a little sisterof, of the gang of the kind of
extended gang who sometimes doescamp with us, um, sent her
sister a message saying, iseveryone really angry with Kate?
So there is clearly enough inthere, um, that, that people
(04:34):
feel, um, it's familiarterritory.
But I think the other thingthat's been delightful during
the tour.
What's made me feel a little bitmore comfortable is how many
random people who are in no wayrelated to me are identifying
strongly with the, with thegroup dynamics, um, which is
what I was going for.
So, you know, hopefully that'sthe way, but it, it was one of
(04:56):
the most stressful parts of, ofwriting the book, of making sure
that, um.
That idea that I've talkedabout, I think I talked about it
when we recorded previously,Madeline, that the idea was that
I wanted to take the piss outtamyself first and not out of
friendship itself.
So that the idea of kind of us,of us all being in on the joke
(05:18):
and not feeling like someone orsomeone's particular character
trait was the butt of a joke.
So it, it felt like a difficultline to tread.
Maybe I'll go back to historicalfiction like you.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (05:29):
You are always welcome, Kate.
I mean, you always dabble inacross genres, so I'm sure
you'll be back.
Um, who was the, so talkingabout that kind of difficulty
and the challenges, who, whichcharacter did you find the most
difficult and challenging towrite?
Kate Mildenhall (05:42):
I guess the characters, Phil and Lou, um,
and Nest to a degree.
Were the easiest to writebecause they had kind of so much
to do, if that makes sense.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (05:57):
Yes.
Kate Mildenhall (05:58):
Um, um, I found getting into Josie's kind of
science brain, which issomething that I really wanted
to do.
So Josie's the one, you know,who's, who's planting the
Acacia.
Um, that was a bit trickier forme, uh, because I wanted to
reflect.
Her scientific thinking.
It's something that I did withmim in the Mother Fault.
(06:20):
I wanted to kind of reflect the,the experience and the
profession.
Profession.
so, so she was hard for thatreason and, and Stella was a joy
to write.
Speaker 9 (06:31):
Mm.
Kate Mildenhall (06:32):
Stella, the teenager.
Um, but I was also veryconscious of getting that right.
So there's one scene in there,the scene where she's talking
about what's happened with the,um, hockey girls and getting
called into the welfare person'soffice at school.
Uh, that one I checked reallycarefully with my eldest
daughter and she went over itwith me And checked that it was,
(06:53):
that I had, um, that I'd gotthat right.
The other thing too.
in terms of feedback that I got,which is was really interesting
and really important, TeaganBennett Daylight, uh, amazing
writer and um, and mentor andmanuscript assessor.
She did a really early read,which is before the one that
Mark FL Russell did for me,which was amazing.
(07:14):
Uh, and her feedback was aboutWendy and sell in the general
store.
And it didn't have to changemuch, but she said, just be
really careful that you don'tcaricature these characters
because these characters are theones that you have to get
absolutely right.
Because, she quite rightlypicked up what my intent was,
(07:36):
which was, to make fun of thecity slickers, but not to make
fun of the people who lived inthat place.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (07:44):
You did.
I think you did that reallywell.
Um, let's talk about Philthough, because I think Phil's
just his cha, his chapters arejust a joy to read.
Like they're, they're so fun andso funny.
Did you enjoy writing from
Kate Mildenhall (07:58):
I so enjoyed him and actually, um, I've just
been going, I was saying to you,I've just been going back
through my journal today.
So I keep a, a journal of eachbook that I write since my
second book, and they end uplike, I'm looking at this one.
This is 106,000 words, the onefor the hiding place.
And it's got all of my notes andmy questions to myself and my
research and, um, when things gowrong, et cetera.
(08:20):
And I found the section where Iwas at my kids' basketball
training and sitting upstairs.
Where I start writing Phil,'cause he's a basketball coach
and I knew that I had this guythere, you know, that there was
a couple and, um, but Iliterally have started like, you
know.
It's this kind of guy.
Um, he's a chewer.
(08:40):
He's got a really square head.
Um, he is almost military in hismovement.
He was attractive at one time,but he doesn't realize this,
that that spark's gone.
He's an old footy player whostill has tickets on himself.
Like, these are all the notesthat I've got in my journal.
And that's, and, and, and, youknow, so after that, that's
where Phil came from.
(09:00):
Um, and really early on too, Iknew.
I knew that food, food, whenyou're camping for any campers
here, other than my mom and dad,'cause I know they are, you
know, and on holidays, I guessgroup holidays and at this time
of year, food is such a centraljoy and concern of families and
big groups, you know, and, and Ithink for us, when we are
(09:22):
camping, it always feels likeyou are kind of always preparing
for the next meal or cleaning upafter it or thinking about the
next one.
Um, so I knew that that wasgonna feature.
As a key dynamic or tension, youknow, on each of these three
days.
Uh, and I knew that I wanted alamb.
(09:44):
And I knew that Phil was the guyto do it that exact kind of.
Um, and I watched like Philwatches, uh, the YouTubes to
see, um, other guys doing theirlamb spit.
I watched a lot of YouTube andum, TikTok, lamb spit men, um,
getting ready with their littlebrushes and all their little
things.
And uh, so I really knew Iwanted that and, and I really
(10:05):
knew that I.
I, I wanted that to become a keymoment where, where they, you
know, where he has to kill the,where he stuffs up killing the
lamb.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (10:17):
I think it's interesting'cause I felt
like I related to a lot of thecharacters and that actually
scared me a little bit.
But I could also see Phil in somany blokes that I know as well.
Kate Mildenhall (10:28):
Yeah.
And I think, you know, I thinkone of the things is that, that.
Tension.
And I've had so many guys who'veread it and said, oh, am I a
little bit, am I a little bitlike Phil?
Um, I hope I'm not, but maybe Iam.
But also people who who come tohave, as I did some empathy for
him he's very, um, I guess he'sin a way.
(10:52):
Honest with himself about whathe's trying to do.
He's the shit steerer, you know,and, and people will have that
friend who, who likes to pokethe bear and wants to be the one
who makes arguments or who wantsto say, oh, you know, to be
honest, but to speak frankly andthat, those kinds of things.
Um, it's definitely not me'causeI'm, I'm more of a peacekeeper
(11:12):
or I like to think I am.
Um, so I, I guess in a sense Iadmire that quality.
Of him.
Um, but he was also very easyto, to make fun of.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (11:26):
Oh, for sure.
And he is, he is a bit of a, youknow, poke the bear, stir up
things, but he's also a peoplepleaser in the end too.
Kate Mildenhall (11:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I also did really when I, I, I,I remember now, I haven't found
this point in the journal yet,but I remember when I decided
that he was gonna be the one whowas off the booze that I was
like, yes.
Yes, that's exactly who Phil is.
'cause he is also gonna be, um,you know, very smug about it.
A bit of a martyr about it.
(11:52):
And then again, these are thesethings that sometimes and the
writers in the who are heremight know this.
There's things that you put in.
I call them portals because whenyou come back you realize that
they were like a gift you gaveyourself early on, and you
didn't know what they were therefor or what they were meant to
be.
And so the fact that I'd madehim the, the, the one who wasn't
(12:14):
drinking when everyone else isdrinking so much, and then
realizing that that allowed.
For a point where he does startdrinking again over the weekend
was such a joy because I waslike, oh, yes, I, I gifted
myself this part of the plot orthis little kind of moment.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (12:31):
Clever.
That's, I think that's an areally good tip.
Um, all right.
I wanna talk about death by starpicket fence.
I had to like write that termdown.
I didn't know what it was, so IGoogled it.
Kate Mildenhall (2) (12:43):
What did you find?
Madeleine Cleary (2) (12:44):
Oh, I saw it.
Yeah.
I had the, the poking up and Iwas just imagining Jacob, you
know, sort of pro feet scurryingin the dirt and everything.
Um, okay.
Jacob, how, how, what was theprocess of working out your not
murder victim, but
Kate Mildenhall (13:00):
Oh yeah.
Well, that, that was a massiveprocess first.
So, so many people died atvarious times, uh, in one draft.
Um, multiple people
Speaker 9 (13:11):
who
Kate Mildenhall (13:11):
Um, um, like the Hunter,
Madeleine Cleary (2) (13:15):
Oh, Aiden,
Kate Mildenhall (13:17):
Aiden died, but he wasn't Aiden at that stage,
but he died as well.
Um, and at one stage here,here's all the spoilers.
At one stage it was Avril whokilled him at the end to protect
her daughters.
Um, uh, at one point.
At one point, it's hard to saythis because then what if all of
you say, oh no, that would'vebeen better.
Um, at one point, the kids, fora really long time, the kids
(13:40):
lured Jacob into a mine shaft.
And then they, um, and then theyleft him in there.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (13:47):
who was the Mastermind?
Stella
Kate Mildenhall (13:50):
the mastermind, but all the kids, a little bit
Lord of the flies.
Um, they had, yeah, they wereangrier at him.
Um, he'd been more cruel to themdirectly.
Um, but what I realized, and thereason that I moved away from
that, it was this thing ofcircling the idea that I knew
that the kids were central andthat the, the kids, um.
Kind of as a block led byStella.
(14:12):
Were, were really central to theplot.
Um, and there was a point when Irealized I can't make the kids
do it.
And it was sometimes, I don'tknow if others writers do this,
but sometimes I would do theseexercises where I'd like pitch
ahead, even though I knew that Iwould not put this in the book.
So I'd pitch ahead like 10 yearsor 20 years and trying to write.
(14:33):
The kids knowing that they hadlured someone into a hole and
and killed them when they werekids was too much for me.
So I decided the kids couldn'tdo it.
And then, and then a little bitinspired by the dear, the high
country murder that washappening.
Um, I decided that they wouldburn the body.
(14:53):
But again, this is where you,where your research really works
well because, um, I realizedthat they couldn't get the fire
hot enough and dad, maybe, Ithink you helped with this CFA
man and mom.
Um, I realized that theycouldn't get the fire hot enough
over that period of time to getrid of the body.
Um, at one point.
(15:16):
Mark May even have read thisversion.
At one point they moved the bodymultiple times to different
places over the weekend.
Um, and I really liked that oneas well, but it became even more
of a fast and I kind of, Icouldn't fit everything in.
At one point death was byCrossbow.
Um, but really hard toaccidentally kill someone with a
(15:38):
crossbo.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (15:39):
I
Kate Mildenhall (15:39):
Because you have to kind of pull it right
back.
Uh, so then decided on pick,fence and tractor.
So the star picture, um, wasmost joyously acted out for me,
um, by my husband and, the guyhe landscapes for where I, and I
didn't even ask for this, butone day they sent me, um, a
(16:03):
picture from site where theywere testing out how far the
star pick would go in, um, howfar the T-shirt would go up.
Um.
I, I remember talking to peopleat length about, um, how much
blood there would be, um, thekinds of, the kind of max of how
(16:24):
the tractor would have to move,um, for these things to happen.
Because the thing that was mostdifficult for me, aside from
killing someone, which was alittle bit difficult and working
out who to kill, was trying tomake sure that the reader would
come along with me, that theywould buy it.
(16:44):
They would be like, yes, I seehow everyone is angry right now.
I see how this, um, moment hascome into being.
I see how Ness is kind ofclamoring on the tractor.
I see what happens.
I see it and I buy it.
Uh, so I needed them to buy thatpart, and then I needed them to
buy what happens next and theterrible decisions that
(17:07):
everyone, everyone makes, um,but also the joy.
Of knowing that this book wasabout property and boundaries
and, uh, fence linesspecifically, and that it was
the fence itself that would killJacob was another one of those
moments where I was like, ofcourse the fence is what kills
(17:30):
him.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (17:30):
Of course that makes total sense.
Um, and yes, I could veryvisually picture this.
I think we, I said to you, um,I.
First read this book when I wason the beach and I got to that
scene and uh, my husband wasnext to me and I was making
these like gruesome, kind oflike, ooh noises.
So you did it.
You did it well, Kate, um, deathcap mushrooms though.
(17:53):
That was another possible,death.
I actually thought Josie wasgonna let it go when she was
doing that.
I don't know if others, I wasjust going, no, no, no, no, no,
no.
Josie, what are you thinking?
Whatcha doing?
Kate Mildenhall (18:05):
I'm so glad.
I'm so glad.
It's the, it's the most joy whenyou get messages and sometimes
you get messages from people,like while they are reading and
getting those ones where they'relike, oh my God, what is she
doing?
What is she doing?
They were some of the best.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (18:21):
tell us about the mushrooms.
And I know that everyone'sprobably really interested in
mushrooms, in particularlyliving in Melbourne at the
moment too.
Kate Mildenhall (18:29):
Yeah.
So the mushrooms came inoriginally because, I think the
way it happened is that I wanteda, a, an oak tree.
Um, and then I realized thatdeath caps often grew under them
in this place at this time.
I was like, okay, there's gonnabe death caps, there's gonna be
all of these threats.
I just wanted to keep, the riveris a threat.
The mind charts are a threat.
(18:50):
The mushrooms are a threat.
The people obviously are The,biggest threats.
Again, it was one of thosethings I knew that, um, Josie's
loyalty to Lou, um, I wantedthat to keep amping up during
the book to an extent where shewould also do anything.
You know, we, we've got thiskind of dynamic where they will
(19:11):
all do anything for each otherto a certain degree.
Um, and then of course.
Again, it was one of thosethings.
She had the mushrooms, she hadthem, uh, she hadn't put them in
the fire.
Um, and for a while I thoughtthat just the threat of it alone
would be enough.
And then when I realized that Iwas kind of, I guess, amping up
(19:34):
the, um, the funny and thesatire and a bit of the
theatrics, I already had the,um.
The idea of the, the show tofinish it.
I always knew that that's theway it was gonna finish.
I wasn't quite sure how, but Iknew that that was how it was
gonna finish.
Um, yeah, it, it was like, oh,this is this.
(19:58):
She's gonna go, she's gonna tryand do it.
She's gonna try and get rid of,um, she's gonna try and get rid
of Aiden and, and Dave and Libbyas well, because, you know,
maybe that they have to go too.
Um, I didn't ever think that itwould happen.
I didn't, I, I never intendedfor them to die as well.
Um, so yeah, I always knew shewas gonna pull back from the
edge, but it was fun to make hergo there.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (20:19):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Nerve wracking for all of us.
Um.
It's interesting because slowlythe, so what happened to Jacob
is revealed.
So all the campers are startingto all find out slowly, slowly,
slowly, incrementally, and notone of them really ever waves
about trying to help cover itup.
(20:39):
All of them just go,
Speaker 5 (20:40):
Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (20:41):
okay, no worries.
Let's, how are we gonna do this?
How are we gonna do it?
Is this an old friends thing, doyou think?
Kate Mildenhall (20:48):
I think also the, the fact that it happened
slowly.
Um, so I think had, had therebeen 15 people in a round table
right at the start, somebodythat you know.
Would've convinced everyoneelse, no, we can't do this.
But that idea of, of theincremental stuff ups and the
small decisions that peoplemake, and then you're like,
(21:11):
okay, well I guess if everyone'salready made the decision, then
I'll just go along with that.
Um, that's really what I wantedto play on because as each new
person finds out, it's.
I'm like, wow, we've lost thatopportunity.
Now someone's gonna beimplicated.
You know, everything after thefirst moment means that, um, you
(21:33):
know, either ness or Lu aregonna be implicated.
Uh, so that, that was, that waskind of fun to play with, but I
did have to have a spreadsheet,particularly when I gave it to
the editor.
Of who knew at what time, whichsecret, you know, I think it's
called the secret spreadsheet,and it's like, well, who knows
about the affair?
Who knows about the, um, whoknows about the body?
(21:56):
You know, all of these things totry and make sure that I had
that right because it wasimportant to me that one of the
adults and, and, you know, kindof had to be Marni, that she
never knows until, until theend.
That that was important as well.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (22:10):
So in terms of, um, you, you said you
had this idea of what the endwould be, um, and you also have
like multiple perspectives aswell, and so you've got this
secret.
Spreadsheet.
How else did you map all themultiples perspectives?
Did you plot out this novel?
'cause often thrillers areplotted.
Kate Mildenhall (2) (22:29):
Yes.
Kate Mildenhall (22:29):
I don't, I've actually got something I can
show
Madeleine Cleary (2) (22:31):
Oh, oh.
We're gonna get show and tell.
This is exciting.
Kate Mildenhall (22:35):
I didn't have, so this is the way that I, like
people might've seen thesebefore.
This is the way that I do likejust the contents chapter
outline.
But this, I think was the firstone where I color coded the
characters.
'cause I didn't really plan it.
I didn't plan it to go in ordernecessarily.
so I'm holding up, um, a, a kindof an outline document with
chapter headings.
It's three pieces of, um, a fourpapers stuck together and it's
(22:58):
color coordinated with, uh, sixdifferent colors and they're all
the different character names.
And this was a really good one Iremember because it was when I
realized that I had them aboutright.
I've kind of got 14, 12, 13sections.
Speech.
So I was like, oh, instinctivelyI've given them a kind of the
(23:20):
right amount of space on thepage.
I had to move a few thingsaround.
Um, I did a lot of, uh, like atvarious times, and Mark was
incredibly helpful.
Um, and you probably rememberthis differently even than I did
do.
Mark.
Mark was incredibly helpful.
Um, and Haley Scribner wasincredibly helpful and Anna
Downs, um, three writers who Isought advice from at different
(23:41):
points in the shape.
Of what, um, a crime thrillerneeded to reveal at what time.
So what Mark was really, reallygood at, um, was explaining that
for a long time, the death kindof happened more in the middle
of the book.
And he quite rightly said, youknow, a reader is gonna
anticipate it either beingupfront or at the end.
(24:04):
They're kind of the two placesthat you could do it.
And of course, as he quiterightly said, you can do
whatever you want.
These are the kinds of shapesthat a reader will expect.
And I remember Anna doing asimilar thing with me at one
point where I couldn't identifywhat was wrong with the pace of
it.
I had all the characters, I hadthe, the space, I had all these
(24:24):
things going on, but there wassomething that wasn't kind of
working about it.
So working out where those kindof climactic scenes were and how
each day was gonna finish andwhere the stakes were at each
point was really important.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (24:38):
Because a lot of times as well, some of
the thrillers are like the whodone its as well.
But this is very much, you know,upfront who's done it and it's
just that slow reveal, which isreally cool.
Kate Mildenhall (24:48):
Yeah.
And how is it going to resolve?
And I think, um, at one point myeditor said it goes too fast.
You know, like there's, there'sthe, the pace is too fast.
Um, and so trying to get it.
To work up towards the ending sothat, you know, with only maybe
(25:09):
10, 15 pages to go, I don'tknow, you can tell me readers if
this is how you felt.
Um, you're still not sure what'sgonna happen.
And the other thing that Iwanted you to feel is conflicted
about what you wanted to happen.
Did you want them to get awaywith it?
I can see you laughing, Jack.
Like do you want them to be ableto.
(25:32):
Pack up and roll on out of thereand everything to be okay, or
did you want them to get foundout?
And that, I, I think that's areally interesting question.
That's the kind of question Ilike being asked as a, as a
reader, I guess.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (25:46):
Mm.
And maybe.
'cause we know that Jacob is nota good person.
We kind of assume that at theend.
It does help the things you go,oh, I kind of wish they got away
with it at the end.
I dunno.
I don't know.
Maybe we are gonna open upquestions very soon, so if you
have some comments about this,we'd be very, very keen to hear
your views and your thoughts.
Let's talk about the end.
(26:07):
'cause you said that you alwayshad that scene of the play at
the end, and then obviously the.
End Stella uploads the video.
She's edited with all thehijinks from that weekend.
Um, and like you said, I thinkwhen Stella uploaded that video,
I was both cheering her on, butalso going, why would you do
(26:28):
that?
Like, just, oh.
So I think it's a, it's amixture of both.
So why do you think she did it?
Kate Mildenhall (26:35):
Right.
So it's a mixture of both.
And I think there are a coupleof things.
The, the idea of cameras andsurveillance, like in one part
that's been something I've beeninterested in.
My other works as well.
But when I went to visit thisproperty, um, at Cooper's Creek,
the original property that it's,it's based on, and we were
coming like down the mountainexactly as it's described in the
(26:58):
book.
There were all these cameras inthe trees and I was like.
That is so weird.
But also, oh yeah, well maybepeople are doing dodgy things
out here, you know, or, orwhatever they've got'em for.
So I always had this idea ofcameras and surveillance and
then the deer hunter and I knewabout trail cameras and all of
those things.
So that, that kind of, um, thatwasn't an idea at the start.
(27:20):
It was just bubbling alongunderneath.
I think stellar acts in a waythat I can certainly recognize.
In 15-year-old, 16-year-old me,which is deeply principled,
thinks she's absolutely rightand justified and has no concept
(27:43):
of thinking past the moment andwhat is the potential fallout of
what she's about to do.
So with that kind of, you know,huge rush of, of fury or
indignance or self-righteousnessthat.
One can get, I, I imagine at anyage, but particularly in those
teen years that she just goeswith it.
(28:03):
I will make you all pay and Iwill show you what incredible
hypocrites you are.
Um, I, the actual, when I say Ialways had the ending, I knew
that, that were gonna put on aconcert.
Because that was a big part ofmy growing up and a big part of,
you know, the camping thing ofthe kids doing their show and
all the adults sitting aroundand not wanting to watch
(28:24):
anymore, but they have to.
Um, but it was when I was atVaruna at the end of 2024, um,
and I had this most magnificentcrew there, including, um, Chris
Ne and, um, their husband,Anthony Mullins, who's a
screenwriter, um, and also LauraElvey.
Um, and it was there that wewere talking about, um, Hamlet
(28:47):
and Shakespeare and the idea ofa play within a play.
All of these kinds of ideas andof, um, how a play within a play
might reveal the murderer, etcetera.
And I said, oh, I couldn'tpossibly do it like that though.
I couldn't do the play within aplay.
And lo I can remember Laurasaying, why not?
So I had.
Originally it was just theuploading of the kind of, um,
(29:08):
look at what we made tocelebrate that we were away this
weekend.
But then I turned it into thisidea of the, the play.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (29:15):
And I love it.
'cause at the start everyone'slaughing and thinking how, how,
what great parents we are like,look at these children, look
what they're performing.
It's so great.
And then as it just, it's, it'sa masterful what Stella did.
It is, regardless of whether sheshould have done it or not,
Kate Mildenhall (29:28):
yeah.
And.
And the joy in writing that too.
And that took a lot of editingto get right.
Um, originally I wrote the wholething as it was kind of coming
outta my brain.
I wrote it all from Stella'sperspective.
But once I understood what thenovel was gonna look like, I
knew that it had to rotatethrough the perspectives, but
also what a gift that was.
(29:49):
Because each characterunderstands what's happening at
a different point in time aswell.
It's a cascade exactly like thecascade of disaster has happened
to them.
But then there's kind of likethis, I don't know what you
would call it, like almost, I, Ithink of it as three endings.
So there's the end of the play,um, and then there's the, the
(30:11):
killing of the deer, and thenthere's the general store.
So it was like these threeendings, and that's a risky move
to pull off.
And my publisher didn'tnecessarily want that, but I
knew that I.
Again with this idea that Inever wanted to satirize
friendship itself, and I wantedto see, and I hope that this is
(30:31):
what comes across that in theend, in that little tableau
session section where they allkind of, when they realize that,
um, Aiden's gonna kill the deer,they all leap in front of each
other.
That was really important.
And I fought really hard forthat because that was the bit
where I was like.
They've done these terriblethings.
Um, but in the end, this is howthey will go down together kind
(30:55):
of idea.
Um, so yeah, so it was likehaving these little kind of
resolutions within the thing.
'cause that I also wanted WendyIncel to be going like, well, we
could have told you thatsomething like this would happen
when these blow ins come intotown.
You know, so like, just to havethose three little bits.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (31:13):
It's perfect.
It was a perfect ending, um, toa wonderful book.
Um, we are going to now open upto you if you've got any
questions you would like to askKate and while you are warming
up your brains, um, and feelfree to ha come off mute or pop
it in the chat if you'd prefer.
I'm gonna ask Kate one of ourpre-submitted questions.
(31:35):
Um, so we've got a few actually.
Um.
So we might have actuallyanswered this, but when you set
out to write the book, did youknow how it would end?
So I think you've answered thatbit.
And how many people can, did youdo a count?
How many people died before youlanded on a final draft?
Kate?
Kate Mildenhall (31:51):
Um, yeah, lots in, lots in different
situations.
The other thing, so yeah, soAiden died at one.
Point, um, because he was alsoshot.
There was also these IES in itfor a long time and a shipping
container.
Um, which, yeah, so, so that wasmy original thing.
There was this whisper when Iwent to visit the property, the
(32:12):
original property, Cooper'sCreek, there was this whisper
of.
Bike is being involved and youknow, you never wanna research
too deeply with biking just incases.
Um, but, uh, I did a little bitof talking around the place and,
and realized that yeah,sometimes these big rural
properties.
That's where Bies put theirstuff in shipping containers,
(32:34):
um, and maybe they grow theirweed or various other things
that they have.
And so for a long time, um, itwas bies who were on the fence
line or, you know, there was ashipping container that hadn't
been moved when the propertysold.
Uh, and the key scene, and oneof the first scenes that I wrote
was that Josie, um.
Goes to plant the Acacia and shefinds the shipping container and
(32:57):
she's trying to look inside andshe drops her phone inside and
can't get it out.
And you know, so there'ssometimes scenes where you write
them and you're like, that'sace.
I feel stressed.
My characters are stressed.
This is a high stake situation,even though it's kind of not,
but it really is like I amdeeply stressed about this phone
(33:18):
being in the shipping container.
And then as you move thingsalong it, it doesn't work
anymore.
And it's a really, it can bereally hard to get rid.
This is the classic, kill yourdarlings.
You know?
It can be really hard to get ridof scenes.
Feel like they were integral tothe draft.
Um, but yeah, the bies, the biesdidn't made it make it, so some
(33:38):
of them died at one point.
At one point, like I, I've justseen in my journal, I had, does
one of the kids die?
And very quickly I said, no,that's not what happens.
Um, I couldn't
Madeleine Cleary (2) (33:49):
Actually, when I was doing my second read
through, you do.
Set it up that something willhappen to a kid as well.
And I think the reader isconstantly anxious when Eden
goes
Kate Mildenhall (34:01):
Yeah.
And that when Eden goes missing,and, and that's, that's kind of
a catalyst for lots of thingstoo.
Um, because that's where Stellareally loses her shit too,
because, you know, she's like, Ishouldn't be the one who's has
to look after the kids.
Um, so.
That was important, but I wantedthat constant kind of threat to
(34:21):
be there all the time.
Um, yeah.
So lots and lots of people diedand, and I think maybe I, I've
said this before, people mighthave heard me say that it was
Hay Scribner who's who, when Isaid, how do you decide who to
kill though?
Hay?
Like, that's so stressful.
And she said, you kill whoever,excuse my language, whoever the
fuck you want.
And I was like, okay, that'sfine.
Then I don't have to ethically.
(34:42):
Come to this point where I knowthat this is the right person to
kill.
You know?
You can just kill whoever youwant in fiction.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (34:48):
was, at least Jacob was a bad person, so
it probably made him easierkilling him.
Kate Mildenhall (34:52):
Exactly.
Speaker 5 (34:53):
It, it was, it was,
Madeleine Cleary (2) (34:55):
do we have any questions?
Kate Mildenhall (2) (34:58):
Oh, there's Mark putting his hand up.
Hi Mark.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (35:01):
hi, mark.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
You know how much I love this, book.
The, the thing I was reallyfascinated by,'cause you've got,
um, multiple perspectives, quitea few characters to juggle.
They've all got very differentideas.
They're all kind of, um,complete, when they, they also
tend to go on these kind of likeinternal monologues where
they're talking about theirviewpoint and they're very funny
(35:24):
and stuff like that.
Were you starting with, okay,I've got all these, I'm gonna
have the, these archetypes, andsuddenly here's the event and
then kind of let them buildtheir character through that, or
with these rants kind of almostpart of your character
development, when you werewriting it in the beginning.
If, if that makes sense.
Kate Mildenhall (35:44):
Yeah, it's a really good question.
Um, a lot of the rants, theinternal stuff came out fully
formed, um, but at differentpoints was assigned to different
characters.
So, yeah, the archetype of thecharacters didn't come first.
The other thing that was reallyinteresting about this is that I
(36:04):
wrote a lot of the conversationsor the fights, especially the
ones that happened around thecampfire and there were lots
more of them.
I wrote those pretty early on,um, without attributes sometimes
so without dialogue tags.
So I would be writing them andknow the gist of the argument.
And the gist of the differentviewpoints, but not necessarily
(36:26):
who was saying them.
Uh, and so then that was part ofthe editing and a really hard
part to get voices, right?
Because one, I remember one ofthe bits of feedback at one
point was, um, sometimes inthose bigger ensemble scenes, we
lose whose point of view we'rein because there's so much
dialogue and you're not gettingthe point of view of the
character.
So that, I had to work reallycarefully on that.
(36:49):
Yeah, so, so actually one of thethings I would do is go, okay,
well, I want them to talk about,um, you know, Marnie's political
campaign.
What are all the possibleopinions people are gonna have
on this?
And then I would kind of stretchout from there.
So yeah, at different points.
And because originally there waslike 17 adults, um, which was
(37:12):
too many.
To have, even though that's howmany I camp with, and I know
that to be true of life.
Uh, like in many things, whenyou're writing a novel, um, it
can't, it like with dialogue, itcan't actually realistically
represent life.
You, you're doing it in thenovel form.
Um, I should say too, when like,I, I haven't said this enough
(37:33):
and Mark, I didn't knownecessarily Mark was gonna be
here, mark.
Who was an extraordinary writerwho wrote The Wolf, who Cried
Boy, uh, was um, which is one ofmy books of the year, um, was
also such.
A very particular joy, um, and,and insight giver in the
drafting process for this anddifferently to what I may have
(37:55):
done before is now I choosereally carefully who I'm gonna
get to do reads for me, and it'sfor really specific purposes.
So the fact that Mark and Haleyboth agreed to do it, I was
looking for people whounderstood the genre.
Um, particularly Mark'sscreenwriting background as
well.
So those were, so, I, I justwanna Yeah, just acknowledge
(38:17):
that Mark, how influential youwere, uh, in, in helping this
book get to its final place.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (38:25):
Oh, and I'm just gonna echo that as
well.
I was completely stuck in mybook two or book three planning,
and I had a beer with Mark andthen suddenly, like it was all
clear again, and Mark just asksvery simple questions.
So maybe Mark, you need to setup some kind of service or
something for writers who are,
Kate Mildenhall (38:43):
Yes.
A beer with Mark.
That's what it is.
And I think it's the asking ofquestions.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
But it also relies on the fact that I, I loved your
stuff.
You know, like, it, it has to bestuff that I enjoyed because
they're both, um, beautifulbooks.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (39:00):
I can also echo that.
The Wolf of Cried Poise.
My, one of my, I think it is mytop book for this year.
I reckon, oh, I should say, Ishouldn't say that.
While we're talking about theHiding Place,
Kate Mildenhall (2) (39:08):
that's okay.
No, we share around.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (39:10):
No, they're both amazing books.
We haven't talked about mushroomlady, actually, Kate, I think
one of the questions that we gotwas about.
Given the release of the themushroom tapes around the same
time as this book, what's beenthe reader response to that?
And that's a really interestingquestion.
Kate Mildenhall (39:26):
Yeah.
So I was, I was, um, supernervous once I knew I had the
death caps and when all thatwent and point, I think I even
said to my publisher, is this inbad taste?
Should I take out the, the deathcaps?
Like, this is quite a thing.
And I think even it wasn't, youknow, it was already a big
thing, but until the court case,it wasn't really apparent kind
(39:48):
of.
How big it was.
Um, and uh, I decided that I wasgonna leave them in.
Um, but I did decline to writeabout it.
You know, sometimes Madeline,mark, you'll know this too,
Jack, you'll get to know this,um, that your publisher will ask
you to write adjacent mediaarticles about things for, you
(40:11):
know, the Guardian or themonthly or whatever.
Um, and I did say I will notwrite about.
Erin Patterson borough inrelation to this.
And the other thing that I, atone point I had toyed with
putting in the book was, was theidea of sovereign citizens.
Um, and that was another onewhere my publisher said, oh, do
you wanna write on, you know,what's happened with Jessey
(40:32):
Freeman?
And I said, no, absolutely,absolutely not.
I don't, because I think thatthis, you know, one of the
important things to me was to.
Raise these, raise these issueswhich I care about.
You know, climate, emergency,property ownership, land rights,
you know, um, feral animals, allthese things that are important
to me.
(40:52):
Um, but to hold it lightly thistime and to not be, um, I don't
feel like in my previous booksI've ever been didactic, but a
little bit less earnest is howI've been talking about it.
That to not kind of feel like Iwas, um.
Shifting in any way towardspreachy.
Uh, and so thinking that I wouldhave to kind of, um, go from
(41:17):
that, satirical tone toseriously looking at something
like the sovereign citizenmovement and, and everything
related to that was too much forme.
So, yeah, it's, I, I guess it'sa fine line.
And there are other people, youknow, and if you think about
things like patruda advocate orthe shovel who do it.
So brilliantly, and they cantake that kind of stuff and they
can twist it and turn it.
(41:37):
Um, but they have far moreskills than I do in that area.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (41:41):
No, I think that's, yeah, that makes
sense.
And I mean, in the end, thisbook, it's a really fun ripper
read as well.
Like it, it touches on lots ofdifferent issues that we haven't
covered in this chat tonight.
Kate Mildenhall (2) (41:54):
I
Kate Mildenhall (41:54):
love what we have covered though.
That's, it's also, it's liketaking a deep breath when you
can actually talk about all thebits in a book, because so
often, you know, you kind of.
Stressed.
I know, mark, you'll have hadthis experience too, because
there's reveals in your booksthat you're like waiting to see
if you're accidentally gonna saysomething, or if the interviewer
(42:16):
is accidentally gonna saysomething, or you're kind of
talking around in these weirdcircles to be able to say like,
yes.
So anyway, so I looked atexactly how I was gonna fall on
the star picket and where theblood was gonna come out from.
Like that's, that's a joy, eventhough it makes me look a little
bit crazy.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (42:33):
I would've loved to have seen your Google
searches as well during the.
Kate Mildenhall (42:37):
Well, the other, the other, the only thing
that I really declined,'causeyou know, Madeline, that I quite
like, um, you know, getting myhands dirty, Kind of
figuratively when I'm doing myresearch.
So I got on the yacht for themother fault, or I went and
visited the abattoir for the,for the, hummingbird Effect.
The only thing that I decidedwas a step too far for me was to
(42:58):
do the Acacia DMTHallucinogenics this time.
So that acacia, thehallucinogenic that comes from
the acacia bark, specificallythe raspberry wattle, if anyone
needs to know this, that came tome from the woman who lives down
the end of my street.
Who is a gen, molecular genetic,something to do with biology.
Um, and I said to her, I wantsomeone in my book to grow a
(43:21):
crop and I don't want to weed.
What should they grow?
And she said, have you heardabout this stuff with Acacia?
And I was like, okay, I'll godown that rabbit hole.
And um, at various times I didkind of have meetings set up
with different people.
And I was like, you know what?
I don't need in the middle ofwriting this book to just have a
massive kind of hallucinogenictrip and go off my head and not
(43:42):
be able to get back to what'sreally important here.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (43:44):
It, it might've been a very different
book,
Kate Mildenhall (43:46):
It could've been
Kate Mildenhall (2) (43:46):
a very Exactly, exactly.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (43:49):
Are you going camping this summer, Kate?
Kate Mildenhall (2) (43:53):
Yes,
Kate Mildenhall (43:54):
in only two weeks.
And I, I, you know, no one hasput in the chat that, um, I'm
not invited.
I was gonna get varioust-shirts, ma, you know, people
within the gang have made jokesabout whether we should get, you
know, I'm not Phil t-shirts madeor anything like that, but we're
going to, um.
(44:14):
We're going to not do that.
I think it will be reallyamusing'cause we camp at, at
quite a big camping ground.
I, I think it will be veryamusing if anyone else is
reading the book there, that,that will be funny.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (44:24):
That would be amazing.
I feel like there's gonna be somany jokes throughout your
entire.
Trip
Kate Mildenhall (44:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, yeah, I, and I mean, I've, Ihave brought it on myself.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (44:36):
Thank you so much, Kate.
Thanks so much for joining us
Speaker 11 (44:39):
Thank you for listening to the book Deal
podcast.
We're able to bring you theseweekly writerly chats because of
our amazing patrons.
Join the TPD family by becominga member of our Patreon
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And don't forget to follow us onInstagram and Facebook.
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will
discover the inspiring storiesbehind your favorite books.
Natasha Rai (00:15):
We interview seasoned and debut authors, as
well as publishing industryprofessionals to bring you the
best tips and advice on
x (00:22):
how to get that elusive book deal.
So no matter what's.
Stage of writing your at.
We've got you covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And I'm Natasha Rai.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors
Madeleine Cleary (00:37):
one deal at a time.
The book Deal podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners, the land and waters,which it's recorded on and pays
respect to their elders past,present, and emerging.
Speaker (00:56):
Welcome to the Book Deal Podcasts, first spoiler
book club where we dive betweenthe covers of your favorite
novels.
In this episode, I chat withbestselling and highly acclaimed
author, Kate Mildenhall, and afew other readers and writers
about Kate's latest novel, theHiding Place, and as the name of
this book Club suggests, switchoff now unless you're happy with
(01:16):
all the spoilers.
Also, a language warning forthis episode in case you've got
little ones in the car.
Enjoy.
Madeleine Cleary (01:27):
Kate Mildenhall, welcome back to the
Book Deal podcast.
Kate Mildenhall (01:30):
Thank you so
Kate Mildenhall (2) (01:31):
much, Madeline.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (01:32):
Now a warning for our listeners.
If you've missed all our spoilertags and warnings, this is your
last chance to get out.
Now, if you have not read Kate'snovel, the Hiding Place, or you
don't want to be spoiled, thenthis is your time to leave.
Um, so don't blame us you'vebeen warned.
Kate Mildenhall (01:48):
Yeah.
You have been warned.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (01:50):
Um, so we've got a lot to cover
tonight, Kate.
Um, namely Death by Star PicketFence, uh, death cap, mushroom
gravy, mine shafts.
Highly questionable decisionmaking, and Phil's Bloody Lamb
Kate Mildenhall (02:03):
Ah, that is such a great way to introduce it
and a way that no one has beforebecause they're all spoilers.
I love
Madeleine Cleary (2) (02:11):
Boilers.
This is Spoiler Book Club.
All right.
So I wanna start first about,uh, using your friends' book in
spo.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (02:18):
Um, so you've said quite publicly
before that the Willow CreekCamping crew is not your, your
own camping crew friends.
Um, so I'm just double checkingthat you and your friends
definitely have not covered upany dead bodies.
Kate Mildenhall (02:32):
We have not, or if we have, I am not privy to
this infor information.
So we have not, we have, I haveto say on various occasions we
have.
Hypothetically discussed as agroup, mostly as the, my, like
my girlfriends, if we're away ona girl's weekend, that if for
(02:52):
some reason we killed a body, wekilled someone in or came across
a body, how would we deal withit?
Uh, so we have had that kind ofdiscussion about who would bring
what qualities to the table
Madeleine Cleary (2) (03:04):
What would you bring to the table?
Kate Mildenhall (03:06):
generally, just, um, you know, having
everyone's back.
Uh, I'm not a scientist.
There's one in our group who isthe scientist who we decided
could deal with the forensicsand there was one person who
self-declared that, uh, theywould go to the cops as well.
So, you know, there there was,we are a varied bunch.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (03:25):
I, I actually know that because at
your book launch, uh, at read,oh, you are looking horrified.
Um, I was sitting right next toyour camping crew.
They were against the wall, allof them.
Speaker 5 (03:37):
They were literally,
Madeleine Cleary (2) (03:39):
they were literally against the wall.
Every time you said somethingabout the book characters plot
arcs, um, they would all giveeach other shifty ice.
So I'm just.
Kate Mildenhall (03:51):
What has been discussed is, and I think that
this is really interestingbecause there's that idea of,
um, and, and this is for allwriters of what we don't
recognize, um, what might be ourblind spots.
And, and so what I do know has,has happened is that there are
various offshoot conversationsbetween my friends where they
(04:11):
are saying, oh, that's me.
Do you remember when I did that?
Or that's you, or that's someoneelse.
And then a, um, a little sisterof, of the gang of the kind of
extended gang who sometimes doescamp with us, um, sent her
sister a message saying, iseveryone really angry with Kate?
So there is clearly enough inthere, um, that, that people
(04:34):
feel, um, it's familiarterritory.
But I think the other thingthat's been delightful during
the tour.
What's made me feel a little bitmore comfortable is how many
random people who are in no wayrelated to me are identifying
strongly with the, with thegroup dynamics, um, which is
what I was going for.
So, you know, hopefully that'sthe way, but it, it was one of
(04:56):
the most stressful parts of, ofwriting the book, of making sure
that, um.
That idea that I've talkedabout, I think I talked about it
when we recorded previously,Madeline, that the idea was that
I wanted to take the piss outtamyself first and not out of
friendship itself.
So that the idea of kind of us,of us all being in on the joke
(05:18):
and not feeling like someone orsomeone's particular character
trait was the butt of a joke.
So it, it felt like a difficultline to tread.
Maybe I'll go back to historicalfiction like you.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (05:29):
You are always welcome, Kate.
I mean, you always dabble inacross genres, so I'm sure
you'll be back.
Um, who was the, so talkingabout that kind of difficulty
and the challenges, who, whichcharacter did you find the most
difficult and challenging towrite?
Kate Mildenhall (05:42):
I guess the characters, Phil and Lou, um,
and Nest to a degree.
Were the easiest to writebecause they had kind of so much
to do, if that makes sense.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (05:57):
Yes.
Kate Mildenhall (05:58):
Um, um, I found getting into Josie's kind of
science brain, which issomething that I really wanted
to do.
So Josie's the one, you know,who's, who's planting the
Acacia.
Um, that was a bit trickier forme, uh, because I wanted to
reflect.
Her scientific thinking.
It's something that I did withmim in the Mother Fault.
(06:20):
I wanted to kind of reflect the,the experience and the
profession.
Profession.
so, so she was hard for thatreason and, and Stella was a joy
to write.
Speaker 9 (06:31):
Mm.
Kate Mildenhall (06:32):
Stella, the teenager.
Um, but I was also veryconscious of getting that right.
So there's one scene in there,the scene where she's talking
about what's happened with the,um, hockey girls and getting
called into the welfare person'soffice at school.
Uh, that one I checked reallycarefully with my eldest
daughter and she went over itwith me And checked that it was,
(06:53):
that I had, um, that I'd gotthat right.
The other thing too.
in terms of feedback that I got,which is was really interesting
and really important, TeaganBennett Daylight, uh, amazing
writer and um, and mentor andmanuscript assessor.
She did a really early read,which is before the one that
Mark FL Russell did for me,which was amazing.
(07:14):
Uh, and her feedback was aboutWendy and sell in the general
store.
And it didn't have to changemuch, but she said, just be
really careful that you don'tcaricature these characters
because these characters are theones that you have to get
absolutely right.
Because, she quite rightlypicked up what my intent was,
(07:36):
which was, to make fun of thecity slickers, but not to make
fun of the people who lived inthat place.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (07:44):
You did.
I think you did that reallywell.
Um, let's talk about Philthough, because I think Phil's
just his cha, his chapters arejust a joy to read.
Like they're, they're so fun andso funny.
Did you enjoy writing from
Kate Mildenhall (07:58):
I so enjoyed him and actually, um, I've just
been going, I was saying to you,I've just been going back
through my journal today.
So I keep a, a journal of eachbook that I write since my
second book, and they end uplike, I'm looking at this one.
This is 106,000 words, the onefor the hiding place.
And it's got all of my notes andmy questions to myself and my
research and, um, when things gowrong, et cetera.
(08:20):
And I found the section where Iwas at my kids' basketball
training and sitting upstairs.
Where I start writing Phil,'cause he's a basketball coach
and I knew that I had this guythere, you know, that there was
a couple and, um, but Iliterally have started like, you
know.
It's this kind of guy.
Um, he's a chewer.
(08:40):
He's got a really square head.
Um, he is almost military in hismovement.
He was attractive at one time,but he doesn't realize this,
that that spark's gone.
He's an old footy player whostill has tickets on himself.
Like, these are all the notesthat I've got in my journal.
And that's, and, and, and, youknow, so after that, that's
where Phil came from.
(09:00):
Um, and really early on too, Iknew.
I knew that food, food, whenyou're camping for any campers
here, other than my mom and dad,'cause I know they are, you
know, and on holidays, I guessgroup holidays and at this time
of year, food is such a centraljoy and concern of families and
big groups, you know, and, and Ithink for us, when we are
(09:22):
camping, it always feels likeyou are kind of always preparing
for the next meal or cleaning upafter it or thinking about the
next one.
Um, so I knew that that wasgonna feature.
As a key dynamic or tension, youknow, on each of these three
days.
Uh, and I knew that I wanted alamb.
(09:44):
And I knew that Phil was the guyto do it that exact kind of.
Um, and I watched like Philwatches, uh, the YouTubes to
see, um, other guys doing theirlamb spit.
I watched a lot of YouTube andum, TikTok, lamb spit men, um,
getting ready with their littlebrushes and all their little
things.
And uh, so I really knew Iwanted that and, and I really
(10:05):
knew that I.
I, I wanted that to become a keymoment where, where they, you
know, where he has to kill the,where he stuffs up killing the
lamb.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (10:17):
I think it's interesting'cause I felt
like I related to a lot of thecharacters and that actually
scared me a little bit.
But I could also see Phil in somany blokes that I know as well.
Kate Mildenhall (10:28):
Yeah.
And I think, you know, I thinkone of the things is that, that.
Tension.
And I've had so many guys who'veread it and said, oh, am I a
little bit, am I a little bitlike Phil?
Um, I hope I'm not, but maybe Iam.
But also people who who come tohave, as I did some empathy for
him he's very, um, I guess he'sin a way.
(10:52):
Honest with himself about whathe's trying to do.
He's the shit steerer, you know,and, and people will have that
friend who, who likes to pokethe bear and wants to be the one
who makes arguments or who wantsto say, oh, you know, to be
honest, but to speak frankly andthat, those kinds of things.
Um, it's definitely not me'causeI'm, I'm more of a peacekeeper
(11:12):
or I like to think I am.
Um, so I, I guess in a sense Iadmire that quality.
Of him.
Um, but he was also very easyto, to make fun of.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (11:26):
Oh, for sure.
And he is, he is a bit of a, youknow, poke the bear, stir up
things, but he's also a peoplepleaser in the end too.
Kate Mildenhall (11:32):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I also did really when I, I, I,I remember now, I haven't found
this point in the journal yet,but I remember when I decided
that he was gonna be the one whowas off the booze that I was
like, yes.
Yes, that's exactly who Phil is.
'cause he is also gonna be, um,you know, very smug about it.
A bit of a martyr about it.
(11:52):
And then again, these are thesethings that sometimes and the
writers in the who are heremight know this.
There's things that you put in.
I call them portals because whenyou come back you realize that
they were like a gift you gaveyourself early on, and you
didn't know what they were therefor or what they were meant to
be.
And so the fact that I'd madehim the, the, the one who wasn't
(12:14):
drinking when everyone else isdrinking so much, and then
realizing that that allowed.
For a point where he does startdrinking again over the weekend
was such a joy because I waslike, oh, yes, I, I gifted
myself this part of the plot orthis little kind of moment.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (12:31):
Clever.
That's, I think that's an areally good tip.
Um, all right.
I wanna talk about death by starpicket fence.
I had to like write that termdown.
I didn't know what it was, so IGoogled it.
Kate Mildenhall (2) (12:43):
What did you find?
Madeleine Cleary (2) (12:44):
Oh, I saw it.
Yeah.
I had the, the poking up and Iwas just imagining Jacob, you
know, sort of pro feet scurryingin the dirt and everything.
Um, okay.
Jacob, how, how, what was theprocess of working out your not
murder victim, but
Kate Mildenhall (13:00):
Oh yeah.
Well, that, that was a massiveprocess first.
So, so many people died atvarious times, uh, in one draft.
Um, multiple people
Speaker 9 (13:11):
who
Kate Mildenhall (13:11):
Um, um, like the Hunter,
Madeleine Cleary (2) (13:15):
Oh, Aiden,
Kate Mildenhall (13:17):
Aiden died, but he wasn't Aiden at that stage,
but he died as well.
Um, and at one stage here,here's all the spoilers.
At one stage it was Avril whokilled him at the end to protect
her daughters.
Um, uh, at one point.
At one point, it's hard to saythis because then what if all of
you say, oh no, that would'vebeen better.
Um, at one point, the kids, fora really long time, the kids
(13:40):
lured Jacob into a mine shaft.
And then they, um, and then theyleft him in there.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (13:47):
who was the Mastermind?
Stella
Kate Mildenhall (13:50):
the mastermind, but all the kids, a little bit
Lord of the flies.
Um, they had, yeah, they wereangrier at him.
Um, he'd been more cruel to themdirectly.
Um, but what I realized, and thereason that I moved away from
that, it was this thing ofcircling the idea that I knew
that the kids were central andthat the, the kids, um.
Kind of as a block led byStella.
(14:12):
Were, were really central to theplot.
Um, and there was a point when Irealized I can't make the kids
do it.
And it was sometimes, I don'tknow if others writers do this,
but sometimes I would do theseexercises where I'd like pitch
ahead, even though I knew that Iwould not put this in the book.
So I'd pitch ahead like 10 yearsor 20 years and trying to write.
(14:33):
The kids knowing that they hadlured someone into a hole and
and killed them when they werekids was too much for me.
So I decided the kids couldn'tdo it.
And then, and then a little bitinspired by the dear, the high
country murder that washappening.
Um, I decided that they wouldburn the body.
(14:53):
But again, this is where you,where your research really works
well because, um, I realizedthat they couldn't get the fire
hot enough and dad, maybe, Ithink you helped with this CFA
man and mom.
Um, I realized that theycouldn't get the fire hot enough
over that period of time to getrid of the body.
Um, at one point.
(15:16):
Mark May even have read thisversion.
At one point they moved the bodymultiple times to different
places over the weekend.
Um, and I really liked that oneas well, but it became even more
of a fast and I kind of, Icouldn't fit everything in.
At one point death was byCrossbow.
Um, but really hard toaccidentally kill someone with a
(15:38):
crossbo.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (15:39):
I
Kate Mildenhall (15:39):
Because you have to kind of pull it right
back.
Uh, so then decided on pick,fence and tractor.
So the star picture, um, wasmost joyously acted out for me,
um, by my husband and, the guyhe landscapes for where I, and I
didn't even ask for this, butone day they sent me, um, a
(16:03):
picture from site where theywere testing out how far the
star pick would go in, um, howfar the T-shirt would go up.
Um.
I, I remember talking to peopleat length about, um, how much
blood there would be, um, thekinds of, the kind of max of how
(16:24):
the tractor would have to move,um, for these things to happen.
Because the thing that was mostdifficult for me, aside from
killing someone, which was alittle bit difficult and working
out who to kill, was trying tomake sure that the reader would
come along with me, that theywould buy it.
(16:44):
They would be like, yes, I seehow everyone is angry right now.
I see how this, um, moment hascome into being.
I see how Ness is kind ofclamoring on the tractor.
I see what happens.
I see it and I buy it.
Uh, so I needed them to buy thatpart, and then I needed them to
buy what happens next and theterrible decisions that
(17:07):
everyone, everyone makes, um,but also the joy.
Of knowing that this book wasabout property and boundaries
and, uh, fence linesspecifically, and that it was
the fence itself that would killJacob was another one of those
moments where I was like, ofcourse the fence is what kills
(17:30):
him.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (17:30):
Of course that makes total sense.
Um, and yes, I could veryvisually picture this.
I think we, I said to you, um,I.
First read this book when I wason the beach and I got to that
scene and uh, my husband wasnext to me and I was making
these like gruesome, kind oflike, ooh noises.
So you did it.
You did it well, Kate, um, deathcap mushrooms though.
(17:53):
That was another possible,death.
I actually thought Josie wasgonna let it go when she was
doing that.
I don't know if others, I wasjust going, no, no, no, no, no,
no.
Josie, what are you thinking?
Whatcha doing?
Kate Mildenhall (18:05):
I'm so glad.
I'm so glad.
It's the, it's the most joy whenyou get messages and sometimes
you get messages from people,like while they are reading and
getting those ones where they'relike, oh my God, what is she
doing?
What is she doing?
They were some of the best.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (18:21):
tell us about the mushrooms.
And I know that everyone'sprobably really interested in
mushrooms, in particularlyliving in Melbourne at the
moment too.
Kate Mildenhall (18:29):
Yeah.
So the mushrooms came inoriginally because, I think the
way it happened is that I wanteda, a, an oak tree.
Um, and then I realized thatdeath caps often grew under them
in this place at this time.
I was like, okay, there's gonnabe death caps, there's gonna be
all of these threats.
I just wanted to keep, the riveris a threat.
The mind charts are a threat.
(18:50):
The mushrooms are a threat.
The people obviously are The,biggest threats.
Again, it was one of thosethings I knew that, um, Josie's
loyalty to Lou, um, I wantedthat to keep amping up during
the book to an extent where shewould also do anything.
You know, we, we've got thiskind of dynamic where they will
(19:11):
all do anything for each otherto a certain degree.
Um, and then of course.
Again, it was one of thosethings.
She had the mushrooms, she hadthem, uh, she hadn't put them in
the fire.
Um, and for a while I thoughtthat just the threat of it alone
would be enough.
And then when I realized that Iwas kind of, I guess, amping up
(19:34):
the, um, the funny and thesatire and a bit of the
theatrics, I already had the,um.
The idea of the, the show tofinish it.
I always knew that that's theway it was gonna finish.
I wasn't quite sure how, but Iknew that that was how it was
gonna finish.
Um, yeah, it, it was like, oh,this is this.
(19:58):
She's gonna go, she's gonna tryand do it.
She's gonna try and get rid of,um, she's gonna try and get rid
of Aiden and, and Dave and Libbyas well, because, you know,
maybe that they have to go too.
Um, I didn't ever think that itwould happen.
I didn't, I, I never intendedfor them to die as well.
Um, so yeah, I always knew shewas gonna pull back from the
edge, but it was fun to make hergo there.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (20:19):
Oh yeah, yeah.
Nerve wracking for all of us.
Um.
It's interesting because slowlythe, so what happened to Jacob
is revealed.
So all the campers are startingto all find out slowly, slowly,
slowly, incrementally, and notone of them really ever waves
about trying to help cover itup.
(20:39):
All of them just go,
Speaker 5 (20:40):
Yeah.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (20:41):
okay, no worries.
Let's, how are we gonna do this?
How are we gonna do it?
Is this an old friends thing, doyou think?
Kate Mildenhall (20:48):
I think also the, the fact that it happened
slowly.
Um, so I think had, had therebeen 15 people in a round table
right at the start, somebodythat you know.
Would've convinced everyoneelse, no, we can't do this.
But that idea of, of theincremental stuff ups and the
small decisions that peoplemake, and then you're like,
(21:11):
okay, well I guess if everyone'salready made the decision, then
I'll just go along with that.
Um, that's really what I wantedto play on because as each new
person finds out, it's.
I'm like, wow, we've lost thatopportunity.
Now someone's gonna beimplicated.
You know, everything after thefirst moment means that, um, you
(21:33):
know, either ness or Lu aregonna be implicated.
Uh, so that, that was, that waskind of fun to play with, but I
did have to have a spreadsheet,particularly when I gave it to
the editor.
Of who knew at what time, whichsecret, you know, I think it's
called the secret spreadsheet,and it's like, well, who knows
about the affair?
Who knows about the, um, whoknows about the body?
(21:56):
You know, all of these things totry and make sure that I had
that right because it wasimportant to me that one of the
adults and, and, you know, kindof had to be Marni, that she
never knows until, until theend.
That that was important as well.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (22:10):
So in terms of, um, you, you said you
had this idea of what the endwould be, um, and you also have
like multiple perspectives aswell, and so you've got this
secret.
Spreadsheet.
How else did you map all themultiples perspectives?
Did you plot out this novel?
'cause often thrillers areplotted.
Kate Mildenhall (2) (22:29):
Yes.
Kate Mildenhall (22:29):
I don't, I've actually got something I can
show
Madeleine Cleary (2) (22:31):
Oh, oh.
We're gonna get show and tell.
This is exciting.
Kate Mildenhall (22:35):
I didn't have, so this is the way that I, like
people might've seen thesebefore.
This is the way that I do likejust the contents chapter
outline.
But this, I think was the firstone where I color coded the
characters.
'cause I didn't really plan it.
I didn't plan it to go in ordernecessarily.
so I'm holding up, um, a, a kindof an outline document with
chapter headings.
It's three pieces of, um, a fourpapers stuck together and it's
(22:58):
color coordinated with, uh, sixdifferent colors and they're all
the different character names.
And this was a really good one Iremember because it was when I
realized that I had them aboutright.
I've kind of got 14, 12, 13sections.
Speech.
So I was like, oh, instinctivelyI've given them a kind of the
(23:20):
right amount of space on thepage.
I had to move a few thingsaround.
Um, I did a lot of, uh, like atvarious times, and Mark was
incredibly helpful.
Um, and you probably rememberthis differently even than I did
do.
Mark.
Mark was incredibly helpful.
Um, and Haley Scribner wasincredibly helpful and Anna
Downs, um, three writers who Isought advice from at different
(23:41):
points in the shape.
Of what, um, a crime thrillerneeded to reveal at what time.
So what Mark was really, reallygood at, um, was explaining that
for a long time, the death kindof happened more in the middle
of the book.
And he quite rightly said, youknow, a reader is gonna
anticipate it either beingupfront or at the end.
(24:04):
They're kind of the two placesthat you could do it.
And of course, as he quiterightly said, you can do
whatever you want.
These are the kinds of shapesthat a reader will expect.
And I remember Anna doing asimilar thing with me at one
point where I couldn't identifywhat was wrong with the pace of
it.
I had all the characters, I hadthe, the space, I had all these
(24:24):
things going on, but there wassomething that wasn't kind of
working about it.
So working out where those kindof climactic scenes were and how
each day was gonna finish andwhere the stakes were at each
point was really important.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (24:38):
Because a lot of times as well, some of
the thrillers are like the whodone its as well.
But this is very much, you know,upfront who's done it and it's
just that slow reveal, which isreally cool.
Kate Mildenhall (24:48):
Yeah.
And how is it going to resolve?
And I think, um, at one point myeditor said it goes too fast.
You know, like there's, there'sthe, the pace is too fast.
Um, and so trying to get it.
To work up towards the ending sothat, you know, with only maybe
(25:09):
10, 15 pages to go, I don'tknow, you can tell me readers if
this is how you felt.
Um, you're still not sure what'sgonna happen.
And the other thing that Iwanted you to feel is conflicted
about what you wanted to happen.
Did you want them to get awaywith it?
I can see you laughing, Jack.
Like do you want them to be ableto.
(25:32):
Pack up and roll on out of thereand everything to be okay, or
did you want them to get foundout?
And that, I, I think that's areally interesting question.
That's the kind of question Ilike being asked as a, as a
reader, I guess.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (25:46):
Mm.
And maybe.
'cause we know that Jacob is nota good person.
We kind of assume that at theend.
It does help the things you go,oh, I kind of wish they got away
with it at the end.
I dunno.
I don't know.
Maybe we are gonna open upquestions very soon, so if you
have some comments about this,we'd be very, very keen to hear
your views and your thoughts.
Let's talk about the end.
(26:07):
'cause you said that you alwayshad that scene of the play at
the end, and then obviously the.
End Stella uploads the video.
She's edited with all thehijinks from that weekend.
Um, and like you said, I thinkwhen Stella uploaded that video,
I was both cheering her on, butalso going, why would you do
(26:28):
that?
Like, just, oh.
So I think it's a, it's amixture of both.
So why do you think she did it?
Kate Mildenhall (26:35):
Right.
So it's a mixture of both.
And I think there are a coupleof things.
The, the idea of cameras andsurveillance, like in one part
that's been something I've beeninterested in.
My other works as well.
But when I went to visit thisproperty, um, at Cooper's Creek,
the original property that it's,it's based on, and we were
coming like down the mountainexactly as it's described in the
(26:58):
book.
There were all these cameras inthe trees and I was like.
That is so weird.
But also, oh yeah, well maybepeople are doing dodgy things
out here, you know, or, orwhatever they've got'em for.
So I always had this idea ofcameras and surveillance and
then the deer hunter and I knewabout trail cameras and all of
those things.
So that, that kind of, um, thatwasn't an idea at the start.
(27:20):
It was just bubbling alongunderneath.
I think stellar acts in a waythat I can certainly recognize.
In 15-year-old, 16-year-old me,which is deeply principled,
thinks she's absolutely rightand justified and has no concept
(27:43):
of thinking past the moment andwhat is the potential fallout of
what she's about to do.
So with that kind of, you know,huge rush of, of fury or
indignance or self-righteousnessthat.
One can get, I, I imagine at anyage, but particularly in those
teen years that she just goeswith it.
(28:03):
I will make you all pay and Iwill show you what incredible
hypocrites you are.
Um, I, the actual, when I say Ialways had the ending, I knew
that, that were gonna put on aconcert.
Because that was a big part ofmy growing up and a big part of,
you know, the camping thing ofthe kids doing their show and
all the adults sitting aroundand not wanting to watch
(28:24):
anymore, but they have to.
Um, but it was when I was atVaruna at the end of 2024, um,
and I had this most magnificentcrew there, including, um, Chris
Ne and, um, their husband,Anthony Mullins, who's a
screenwriter, um, and also LauraElvey.
Um, and it was there that wewere talking about, um, Hamlet
(28:47):
and Shakespeare and the idea ofa play within a play.
All of these kinds of ideas andof, um, how a play within a play
might reveal the murderer, etcetera.
And I said, oh, I couldn'tpossibly do it like that though.
I couldn't do the play within aplay.
And lo I can remember Laurasaying, why not?
So I had.
Originally it was just theuploading of the kind of, um,
(29:08):
look at what we made tocelebrate that we were away this
weekend.
But then I turned it into thisidea of the, the play.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (29:15):
And I love it.
'cause at the start everyone'slaughing and thinking how, how,
what great parents we are like,look at these children, look
what they're performing.
It's so great.
And then as it just, it's, it'sa masterful what Stella did.
It is, regardless of whether sheshould have done it or not,
Kate Mildenhall (29:28):
yeah.
And.
And the joy in writing that too.
And that took a lot of editingto get right.
Um, originally I wrote the wholething as it was kind of coming
outta my brain.
I wrote it all from Stella'sperspective.
But once I understood what thenovel was gonna look like, I
knew that it had to rotatethrough the perspectives, but
also what a gift that was.
(29:49):
Because each characterunderstands what's happening at
a different point in time aswell.
It's a cascade exactly like thecascade of disaster has happened
to them.
But then there's kind of likethis, I don't know what you
would call it, like almost, I, Ithink of it as three endings.
So there's the end of the play,um, and then there's the, the
(30:11):
killing of the deer, and thenthere's the general store.
So it was like these threeendings, and that's a risky move
to pull off.
And my publisher didn'tnecessarily want that, but I
knew that I.
Again with this idea that Inever wanted to satirize
friendship itself, and I wantedto see, and I hope that this is
(30:31):
what comes across that in theend, in that little tableau
session section where they allkind of, when they realize that,
um, Aiden's gonna kill the deer,they all leap in front of each
other.
That was really important.
And I fought really hard forthat because that was the bit
where I was like.
They've done these terriblethings.
Um, but in the end, this is howthey will go down together kind
(30:55):
of idea.
Um, so yeah, so it was likehaving these little kind of
resolutions within the thing.
'cause that I also wanted WendyIncel to be going like, well, we
could have told you thatsomething like this would happen
when these blow ins come intotown.
You know, so like, just to havethose three little bits.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (31:13):
It's perfect.
It was a perfect ending, um, toa wonderful book.
Um, we are going to now open upto you if you've got any
questions you would like to askKate and while you are warming
up your brains, um, and feelfree to ha come off mute or pop
it in the chat if you'd prefer.
I'm gonna ask Kate one of ourpre-submitted questions.
(31:35):
Um, so we've got a few actually.
Um.
So we might have actuallyanswered this, but when you set
out to write the book, did youknow how it would end?
So I think you've answered thatbit.
And how many people can, did youdo a count?
How many people died before youlanded on a final draft?
Kate?
Kate Mildenhall (31:51):
Um, yeah, lots in, lots in different
situations.
The other thing, so yeah, soAiden died at one.
Point, um, because he was alsoshot.
There was also these IES in itfor a long time and a shipping
container.
Um, which, yeah, so, so that wasmy original thing.
There was this whisper when Iwent to visit the property, the
(32:12):
original property, Cooper'sCreek, there was this whisper
of.
Bike is being involved and youknow, you never wanna research
too deeply with biking just incases.
Um, but, uh, I did a little bitof talking around the place and,
and realized that yeah,sometimes these big rural
properties.
That's where Bies put theirstuff in shipping containers,
(32:34):
um, and maybe they grow theirweed or various other things
that they have.
And so for a long time, um, itwas bies who were on the fence
line or, you know, there was ashipping container that hadn't
been moved when the propertysold.
Uh, and the key scene, and oneof the first scenes that I wrote
was that Josie, um.
Goes to plant the Acacia and shefinds the shipping container and
(32:57):
she's trying to look inside andshe drops her phone inside and
can't get it out.
And you know, so there'ssometimes scenes where you write
them and you're like, that'sace.
I feel stressed.
My characters are stressed.
This is a high stake situation,even though it's kind of not,
but it really is like I amdeeply stressed about this phone
(33:18):
being in the shipping container.
And then as you move thingsalong it, it doesn't work
anymore.
And it's a really, it can bereally hard to get rid.
This is the classic, kill yourdarlings.
You know?
It can be really hard to get ridof scenes.
Feel like they were integral tothe draft.
Um, but yeah, the bies, the biesdidn't made it make it, so some
(33:38):
of them died at one point.
At one point, like I, I've justseen in my journal, I had, does
one of the kids die?
And very quickly I said, no,that's not what happens.
Um, I couldn't
Madeleine Cleary (2) (33:49):
Actually, when I was doing my second read
through, you do.
Set it up that something willhappen to a kid as well.
And I think the reader isconstantly anxious when Eden
goes
Kate Mildenhall (34:01):
Yeah.
And that when Eden goes missing,and, and that's, that's kind of
a catalyst for lots of thingstoo.
Um, because that's where Stellareally loses her shit too,
because, you know, she's like, Ishouldn't be the one who's has
to look after the kids.
Um, so.
That was important, but I wantedthat constant kind of threat to
(34:21):
be there all the time.
Um, yeah.
So lots and lots of people diedand, and I think maybe I, I've
said this before, people mighthave heard me say that it was
Hay Scribner who's who, when Isaid, how do you decide who to
kill though?
Hay?
Like, that's so stressful.
And she said, you kill whoever,excuse my language, whoever the
fuck you want.
And I was like, okay, that'sfine.
Then I don't have to ethically.
(34:42):
Come to this point where I knowthat this is the right person to
kill.
You know?
You can just kill whoever youwant in fiction.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (34:48):
was, at least Jacob was a bad person, so
it probably made him easierkilling him.
Kate Mildenhall (34:52):
Exactly.
Speaker 5 (34:53):
It, it was, it was,
Madeleine Cleary (2) (34:55):
do we have any questions?
Kate Mildenhall (2) (34:58):
Oh, there's Mark putting his hand up.
Hi Mark.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (35:01):
hi, mark.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
You know how much I love this, book.
The, the thing I was reallyfascinated by,'cause you've got,
um, multiple perspectives, quitea few characters to juggle.
They've all got very differentideas.
They're all kind of, um,complete, when they, they also
tend to go on these kind of likeinternal monologues where
they're talking about theirviewpoint and they're very funny
(35:24):
and stuff like that.
Were you starting with, okay,I've got all these, I'm gonna
have the, these archetypes, andsuddenly here's the event and
then kind of let them buildtheir character through that, or
with these rants kind of almostpart of your character
development, when you werewriting it in the beginning.
If, if that makes sense.
Kate Mildenhall (35:44):
Yeah, it's a really good question.
Um, a lot of the rants, theinternal stuff came out fully
formed, um, but at differentpoints was assigned to different
characters.
So, yeah, the archetype of thecharacters didn't come first.
The other thing that was reallyinteresting about this is that I
(36:04):
wrote a lot of the conversationsor the fights, especially the
ones that happened around thecampfire and there were lots
more of them.
I wrote those pretty early on,um, without attributes sometimes
so without dialogue tags.
So I would be writing them andknow the gist of the argument.
And the gist of the differentviewpoints, but not necessarily
(36:26):
who was saying them.
Uh, and so then that was part ofthe editing and a really hard
part to get voices, right?
Because one, I remember one ofthe bits of feedback at one
point was, um, sometimes inthose bigger ensemble scenes, we
lose whose point of view we'rein because there's so much
dialogue and you're not gettingthe point of view of the
character.
So that, I had to work reallycarefully on that.
(36:49):
Yeah, so, so actually one of thethings I would do is go, okay,
well, I want them to talk about,um, you know, Marnie's political
campaign.
What are all the possibleopinions people are gonna have
on this?
And then I would kind of stretchout from there.
So yeah, at different points.
And because originally there waslike 17 adults, um, which was
(37:12):
too many.
To have, even though that's howmany I camp with, and I know
that to be true of life.
Uh, like in many things, whenyou're writing a novel, um, it
can't, it like with dialogue, itcan't actually realistically
represent life.
You, you're doing it in thenovel form.
Um, I should say too, when like,I, I haven't said this enough
(37:33):
and Mark, I didn't knownecessarily Mark was gonna be
here, mark.
Who was an extraordinary writerwho wrote The Wolf, who Cried
Boy, uh, was um, which is one ofmy books of the year, um, was
also such.
A very particular joy, um, and,and insight giver in the
drafting process for this anddifferently to what I may have
(37:55):
done before is now I choosereally carefully who I'm gonna
get to do reads for me, and it'sfor really specific purposes.
So the fact that Mark and Haleyboth agreed to do it, I was
looking for people whounderstood the genre.
Um, particularly Mark'sscreenwriting background as
well.
So those were, so, I, I justwanna Yeah, just acknowledge
(38:17):
that Mark, how influential youwere, uh, in, in helping this
book get to its final place.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (38:25):
Oh, and I'm just gonna echo that as
well.
I was completely stuck in mybook two or book three planning,
and I had a beer with Mark andthen suddenly, like it was all
clear again, and Mark just asksvery simple questions.
So maybe Mark, you need to setup some kind of service or
something for writers who are,
Kate Mildenhall (38:43):
Yes.
A beer with Mark.
That's what it is.
And I think it's the asking ofquestions.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
But it also relies on the fact that I, I loved your
stuff.
You know, like, it, it has to bestuff that I enjoyed because
they're both, um, beautifulbooks.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (39:00):
I can also echo that.
The Wolf of Cried Poise.
My, one of my, I think it is mytop book for this year.
I reckon, oh, I should say, Ishouldn't say that.
While we're talking about theHiding Place,
Kate Mildenhall (2) (39:08):
that's okay.
No, we share around.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (39:10):
No, they're both amazing books.
We haven't talked about mushroomlady, actually, Kate, I think
one of the questions that we gotwas about.
Given the release of the themushroom tapes around the same
time as this book, what's beenthe reader response to that?
And that's a really interestingquestion.
Kate Mildenhall (39:26):
Yeah.
So I was, I was, um, supernervous once I knew I had the
death caps and when all thatwent and point, I think I even
said to my publisher, is this inbad taste?
Should I take out the, the deathcaps?
Like, this is quite a thing.
And I think even it wasn't, youknow, it was already a big
thing, but until the court case,it wasn't really apparent kind
(39:48):
of.
How big it was.
Um, and uh, I decided that I wasgonna leave them in.
Um, but I did decline to writeabout it.
You know, sometimes Madeline,mark, you'll know this too,
Jack, you'll get to know this,um, that your publisher will ask
you to write adjacent mediaarticles about things for, you
(40:11):
know, the Guardian or themonthly or whatever.
Um, and I did say I will notwrite about.
Erin Patterson borough inrelation to this.
And the other thing that I, atone point I had toyed with
putting in the book was, was theidea of sovereign citizens.
Um, and that was another onewhere my publisher said, oh, do
you wanna write on, you know,what's happened with Jessey
(40:32):
Freeman?
And I said, no, absolutely,absolutely not.
I don't, because I think thatthis, you know, one of the
important things to me was to.
Raise these, raise these issueswhich I care about.
You know, climate, emergency,property ownership, land rights,
you know, um, feral animals, allthese things that are important
to me.
(40:52):
Um, but to hold it lightly thistime and to not be, um, I don't
feel like in my previous booksI've ever been didactic, but a
little bit less earnest is howI've been talking about it.
That to not kind of feel like Iwas, um.
Shifting in any way towardspreachy.
Uh, and so thinking that I wouldhave to kind of, um, go from
(41:17):
that, satirical tone toseriously looking at something
like the sovereign citizenmovement and, and everything
related to that was too much forme.
So, yeah, it's, I, I guess it'sa fine line.
And there are other people, youknow, and if you think about
things like patruda advocate orthe shovel who do it.
So brilliantly, and they cantake that kind of stuff and they
can twist it and turn it.
(41:37):
Um, but they have far moreskills than I do in that area.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (41:41):
No, I think that's, yeah, that makes
sense.
And I mean, in the end, thisbook, it's a really fun ripper
read as well.
Like it, it touches on lots ofdifferent issues that we haven't
covered in this chat tonight.
Kate Mildenhall (2) (41:54):
I
Kate Mildenhall (41:54):
love what we have covered though.
That's, it's also, it's liketaking a deep breath when you
can actually talk about all thebits in a book, because so
often, you know, you kind of.
Stressed.
I know, mark, you'll have hadthis experience too, because
there's reveals in your booksthat you're like waiting to see
if you're accidentally gonna saysomething, or if the interviewer
(42:16):
is accidentally gonna saysomething, or you're kind of
talking around in these weirdcircles to be able to say like,
yes.
So anyway, so I looked atexactly how I was gonna fall on
the star picket and where theblood was gonna come out from.
Like that's, that's a joy, eventhough it makes me look a little
bit crazy.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (42:33):
I would've loved to have seen your Google
searches as well during the.
Kate Mildenhall (42:37):
Well, the other, the other, the only thing
that I really declined,'causeyou know, Madeline, that I quite
like, um, you know, getting myhands dirty, Kind of
figuratively when I'm doing myresearch.
So I got on the yacht for themother fault, or I went and
visited the abattoir for the,for the, hummingbird Effect.
The only thing that I decidedwas a step too far for me was to
(42:58):
do the Acacia DMTHallucinogenics this time.
So that acacia, thehallucinogenic that comes from
the acacia bark, specificallythe raspberry wattle, if anyone
needs to know this, that came tome from the woman who lives down
the end of my street.
Who is a gen, molecular genetic,something to do with biology.
Um, and I said to her, I wantsomeone in my book to grow a
(43:21):
crop and I don't want to weed.
What should they grow?
And she said, have you heardabout this stuff with Acacia?
And I was like, okay, I'll godown that rabbit hole.
And um, at various times I didkind of have meetings set up
with different people.
And I was like, you know what?
I don't need in the middle ofwriting this book to just have a
massive kind of hallucinogenictrip and go off my head and not
(43:42):
be able to get back to what'sreally important here.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (43:44):
It, it might've been a very different
book,
Kate Mildenhall (43:46):
It could've been
Kate Mildenhall (2) (43:46):
a very Exactly, exactly.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (43:49):
Are you going camping this summer, Kate?
Kate Mildenhall (2) (43:53):
Yes,
Kate Mildenhall (43:54):
in only two weeks.
And I, I, you know, no one hasput in the chat that, um, I'm
not invited.
I was gonna get varioust-shirts, ma, you know, people
within the gang have made jokesabout whether we should get, you
know, I'm not Phil t-shirts madeor anything like that, but we're
going to, um.
(44:14):
We're going to not do that.
I think it will be reallyamusing'cause we camp at, at
quite a big camping ground.
I, I think it will be veryamusing if anyone else is
reading the book there, that,that will be funny.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (44:24):
That would be amazing.
I feel like there's gonna be somany jokes throughout your
entire.
Trip
Kate Mildenhall (44:30):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, yeah, I, and I mean, I've, Ihave brought it on myself.
Madeleine Cleary (2) (44:36):
Thank you so much, Kate.
Thanks so much for joining us
Speaker 11 (44:39):
Thank you for listening to the book Deal
podcast.
We're able to bring you theseweekly writerly chats because of
our amazing patrons.
Join the TPD family by becominga member of our Patreon
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