SUMMER SERIES Kylie Orr on competitions, writing craft, social media and letting go

Episode Transcript
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Tina Strachan (00:09):
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will
discover the inspiring storiesbehind your favorite books.

Natasha Rai (00:15):
We interview seasoned and debut authors, as
well as publishing industryprofessionals to bring you the
best tips and advice on

Madeleine Cleary (00:22):
how to get that elusive book deal.
So no matter what's.
Stage of writing your at.
We've got you covered.
I'm Tina Strachan I'm MadeleineCleary.
And I'm Natasha Rai And join usas we pull back the curtain of
published authors one deal at atime.

(00:43):
The book Deal podcastacknowledges the traditional
owners, the land and waters,which it's recorded on and pays
respect to their elders past,present, and emerging.

Tina Strachan (00:56):
Hello, wonderful podcast friends.
I'm Tina Strachan and welcome tothe summer season of the Book
Deal podcast for the 25 26years.
We have had a huge year madepossible by your incredible
support, but it's time forMadeleine, Natasha, and I to
have a little break.
We have lots of writing to do,lot.
Gardening, lots of family timeand a fair bit of rest due to

(01:20):
help us reset and prepare foranother huge year in 2026.
So over the next five weeks, wewill be bringing you some of our
most played eps of all time.
Maybe they're ones you've nothad a chance to listen to yet,
or maybe you're listening for asecond time and hearing new
details you missed the firsttime.
Either way, we hope you enjoythe EPS and have a magical

(01:43):
summer break or winter break forall of our Northern Hemisphere
listeners.
See you soon with new episodesof the Book Deal Podcast.

Hey, Tina.
Hi Madeleine.
How are you?
Oh, great.
Well, just talking about howgood the weather is.
The weather is amazing.
Yes.
In both Melbourne and GoldCoast.
Like that's, that's.
That's great.
We're both looking at sunnyskies.
It is great.
Especially after a week of rainthat we had up here, it's must
be very, very tough living inQueensland.

(02:13):
Yeah.
It's hard.
I wanted to ask you, cause I sawthis week on your Instagram, uh,
some amazing photos of you.
You did a shoot and you lookedgorgeous.
And you also had some littlefriends join you as part of your
shoot as well.
Can you tell us about that?
I did.
Okay.
I did.
Yeah, well, um, that was superfun and something that I've been

(02:36):
looking forward to for a coupleof weeks.
So that's part, that was for a,um, like an author video, it's
just called, um, that, uh, the,my publisher, uh, requested.
So I, cause I'm about six monthsout now from release date of my
first book in my series.
So I feel like that's wheneverything sort of starts

(02:58):
happening and you kind of.
Um, the publicists contact you,et cetera.
So, um, one of the thingsthey've asked for is an author
video and they use that to sendto, um, booksellers, um, mostly
to, uh, when they're goingaround trying to sell you.
sell your book into, into the,into the stores.

(03:19):
And um, yeah, so that was reallyfun because I've got lots of
animals in my book, uh, becauseit's based in a zoo.
Um, I just thought it'd be veryappropriate to have some animals
in my author video.
Absolutely.
I think it's so special.
No one else is going to be ableto pull that out.
I don't think there are videos.
It's very memorable.

(03:40):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hopefully.
Yeah.
Well, I actually wasn't toosure.
I did ask them first because Ithought, Oh, well maybe it would
be too distracting, you know,take away from, you know, You?
Me.
Yeah, talking about.
So it's just like introduceyourself, introduce your book.
What's the, um, you know, whatwas the motivation to write the
book, um, and why, who, whowould enjoy reading it and why

(04:04):
you wanted to write it, etcetera.
Um, so I wasn't sure if that wasgoing to detract from it.
Um, but it was a very goodexcuse to play with some animals
again and get my little fuzzyfix.
But I also had, um, quite a fewanimals.
There was a snake and a, and ablack cockatoo, and I even had a
pet.
And, um, so beautiful ringtailpossum.

(04:25):
So I just kept saying my spielover and over and over while I
had the animals.
Cause you know, when you workwith animals, anything can
happen.
Uh, so I just kept saying itover and over and just like,
we'll just keep going.
We'll let the animals do theirthing.
And hopefully we have.
something at the end so that wecan use.
So yes, little pom pom, um, theringtail possum was the one that

(04:45):
we went with because she wasbeautiful and there's a
beautiful ringtail possum in mybook and there's like a, because
it's middle grade and it haslots of illustrations, there's a
beautiful illustration of aringtail in there as well that
looked just like her.
Um, so yeah, that was with um,Wild Call um, wildlife.
They were very amazing andhelped me out for the day.

(05:07):
So that was, that was so fun.
So hopefully I get to work withthem a little bit more, but so
that's all the video.
Do you have, will you be doingone too, probably?
You just, um, I'm not, I'm nottoo sure at the moment, but I
just wanted to say one thingthough on that, Tina, if you can
see Stand and pitch your bookwith a snake right next to your
face.

(05:27):
I feel like you can pitch itanywhere, like that is next
level.
Oh, it was a beautiful snaketoo.
Yeah, so, but it was coolbecause now I've got like a, um,
yeah, a whole heap of video andsome photos and stuff with them
all, so it was beautiful, yeah.
Yeah, that's exciting.
So I've had a few, um, thingscome through from listeners,

(05:48):
actually, some feedback.
Um, and so one of the questions,and these are actually people
who are not not necessarilywriters, but they're readers and
they're really keen to, youknow, what is middle grade,
Tina?
Oh, okay.
Middle grade.
So is a, I guess, a category forchildren.

(06:08):
Um, That is usually classifiedbetween like, you could call it
8 so that often, so becausekids, they like to read up, so
they, as in, the character, themain characters, they like them
to be a few years older thanthem, they don't like to read
down or even their same, theylike to read up a couple of

(06:30):
years, so, so, It's like eightplus is this category.
And so, you know, my books, thecharacters are 11 and they can
probably go up to 12, but oncethey become teenagers, it's
often moving into young adult.

(06:50):
Then, um, yeah, so, you know,there's a bit of a, yeah, if
they're 13, it's kind of reallybordering.
And sometimes they, you can seethem in middle grade, but then
they're sort of pushing thatboundary to, to young adults.
New things emerging when you'returning 12 and 13 that might not
necessarily be dealt with inmiddle grade, but of course they
might as well.
Yeah.
And when you're 13, you're inhigh school.

(07:12):
So that is, you know, highschool kids, it's a whole
different thing.
And eight year olds, you know,reading about high school life
is probably not ideal.
So that's when it just sort ofshifts that category.
Um, but you know, there's alwaysexceptions to the rule, but that
is what middle grade is.
Interesting.
And I've also had other peoplesay to me, Tina's amazing.
She's got three books coming outnext year.

(07:34):
How many words are in each book?
Yes.
So middle grade, normally likethe sweet spots about, um, about
40, 000.
Words?
Um.
That's still, that's a lot.
Yeah, so it's two hundred andforty Pages.
Yes.
And.
Including illustrations as wellin that too.
Including illustrations.

(07:54):
You've got the cover there.
Can you show us the cover?
Yes, I can.
I mean, sorry for everyone who'slistening on, like, without
video, but, um.
We'll try and describe it.
And when are you going to revealit on, you have to put it up on
social media soon.
Yes, I will.
Very soon.
I'm just gonna, cause I, youknow, I have gone through it
because you know when you Itdoesn't matter how many times
you read some your work, you'llalways find something you want

(08:16):
to change.
And I've been trying not to dothat because you know, this is,
so I have got my arc.
That was the other very excitingthing.
That's happened recently.
The arc everyone is theuncorrected proof.
Oh my goodness.
All right.
So shall I describe it?
Yeah, you can describe it.
Okay.
So, um, there's this beautifulsort of sign archway saying wild
zoo, and then underneath it saysNika and the missing key.

(08:40):
And there's a gorgeous girl andshe's got brown hair and brown
eyes and she's holding, is thatlike a little Joey in there?
Yep.
It's a joey kangaroo.
It's a little joey kangaroo inher knapsack.
Because she lives in a zoo.
Oh my gosh.
That is so beautiful.
And it's this gorgeous, glossy,beautiful.
The illustrations are stunning.

(09:00):
Amazing.
She's done such a good job.
It's a little wraparound coveras well.
So yes, it's very exciting.
It's amazing just to hold itlike in my hands.
And it's, uh.
It's a real thing.
It's a real thing.
All that work and effort overyears and years.
Yes.
Very, very exciting.
Very, very cool.
So yeah, so that's the ARC,which we spoke about in the
last, um, in our last episode.

(09:21):
So advanced reading copy thatalso gets sent out to
booksellers and reviewers.
And also it does give you thatopportunity to see it in print,
um, and if yeah, there is anyinaccuracies that, that you need
to correct.
So yes.
So exciting.
So yeah, so it is quite thick.
So 240 pages.
Um, and so you've, you've got todo three of those this next

(09:43):
year.
Yes.
Um, yes.
So, you know, three of them,three together is quite, quite a
lot of words, really.
Isn't it?
It is.
It's significant.
It's massive.
Well, I, I think it's amazing.
Like you work so hard andeveryone Telling me that like,
oh, Tina's sounds great.
And she just must be working sohard.
I'm like, yes, she is.
Yes, but so are you Madeleine,as are all authors, especially,

(10:08):
you know, in the lead up todebut books coming out.
Absolutely.
Which we both are.
Absolutely.
That's kind of my, um, that'sbasically what I've, my updates
for the last couple of weeks.
What about you, Madeleine?
We need an update from you.
Um, yeah, so very exciting.
Um, so my publicist contacted melast week and said, um, we're

(10:31):
going to announce the, the dealin books and publishing, which
is, I think the industry rag,um, that all sort of everyone
reads and, uh, whether you're abookseller or an agent or a
publisher, um, it's, yeah,something that we all like to
look at.
Um, even though I signed thedeal over a year ago, I think
they prefer to.

(10:51):
So I'm going to announce itclose to the publication date.
So mine will be in another eightmonths, um, just to sort of keep
the hype and, and generate a bitmore interest.
Otherwise people are going toforget if they, if we released
it a year ago.
So that was really exciting.
I didn't know when it was goingto be released.
So did you open your emails andsee it in there or did someone
send it to you?

(11:12):
Well, I think one of, uh, soNadia from the Daybrew crew, she
was the first one that found it.
She found it two minutes afterthe email was sent.
She was, she was, I didn'tactually see that comment.
So I was just like lookingthrough my emails at lunchtime
and then I just checked it andsaw my face.
I was like, Oh, Oh, this isexciting.

(11:32):
So yeah, I don't know.
It's just like, it's, it's, itfeels quite exciting.
So I had so many people reachout and it was really lovely.
So yeah, that was, that was fun.
It's nice.
Um, but yeah, other than that,um, I've, I've been just
relaxing the last week cause Ihanded in my edits.
I'm not sure if I told you that,did I?
Is that a yes.
Yeah.
So I handed that in about a weekago, a week and a half ago and

(11:54):
felt very, very relieved doingthat.
Um, after doing that big sort ofread through, um, and so
recovery time, I think, don'tyou?
Because your brain's just beenworking over time and you
absolutely like it.
So yeah, having a full recovery.
Afterwards to, yeah, just kindof get back, get back on track

(12:14):
with everything else that you'veput off during that time and
also give your brain a littlebit of a break.
Yeah, the garden, pulling outlots of weeds.
That's what I've been doing andit's been really lovely.
But, um, I, I don't know, Tina,and you're probably very
similar.
I think, um, I find like I'mturning my brain off, but I'm
also thinking of new ideas andthat's getting me really

(12:34):
excited.
So I've come up with a new ideafor a new book that I really
want to start.
It's a really fun project, but Ijust can't, I'm just trying to
keep that on the back burner,because I'm worried if I embark
upon that, I'm just gonna get alittle bit distracted.
So do you, when you get thoseideas in your mind though, are

(12:57):
you writing them down or are youjust keeping them in?
Oh, absolutely.
So you're writing it all down.
So it's there for when you'reready.
So it popped into my brain, uh,on a train in Romania, going
through Transylvania.
Perfect.
And I just decided I'll justspend the two hour train
journey, just sitting andlooking out at the beautiful

(13:18):
Transylvanian mountains insteadof like listening to music or
listening to a podcast and justto let my brain set.
So I had about two and a halfhour train ride.
And I reckon on hour two.
My brain just became supercreative.
It took a while, um, and then,yeah, it just switched.
And so then I just had the wholeconcept of how the novel would

(13:38):
begin.
And yeah, so I'm excited.
Were you sitting there with apen and paper?
Can I ask?
Just because I feel like when Isit there with a pen and paper,
it's almost like it's thisconnection from my brain to my
hand, to the paper.
And if I, and that's when itstarts.
coming, like flowing a littlebit.
Oh, that's interesting.
Is that how you get your, oh,no, I just stare.

(14:00):
And then I quickly jot down afew weird words in my phone.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, whatever, if you don'thave pen and paper, definitely
you need to just get anywhere inyour phone.
I'm the same.
I have a Thousand notes thatmake probably no sense, but one
day I'll go back to them.
It would be good one, one dayyou should publish those random
notes and everyone I'll be like,look at the brilliance of the
God, maybe, but I think that'sreally important what you said.

(14:25):
And, um, you know, unfortunatelywe can't all be on a two and a
half, you know, hour train ridethrough Romania.
But, um, do you find that evenjust going for a walk around the
block?
Or a couple of blocks.
Or, um, going for a drive?
I actually Um, like going for adrive and do voicemail messages
into my phone, um, you know,cause safety first while driving

(14:48):
and, um, yeah, or just findingthat bit of space and sitting
where you're not distracted byother things to get those ideas
flowing.
Agreed.
Agreed.
And if I'm ever stuck in a scenewhere I don't have a solution.
Even, I don't even have to gofor a walk around the block.
I just need to get up and makemyself a cup of tea or something

(15:09):
while I'm waiting for thekettle.
I just pace a little bit andthen I'm like, Oh, found it.
And often it's like, do you findin the shower as well?
Cause you're doing somethingrepetitive and you can't have
your phone with you or anythingelse.
And then suddenly your brainjust finds all these solutions.
The problem is you, you're inthe shower.
You can't like get out and startgetting on your phone and

(15:29):
writing things down.
We need like a, like a recorderin the shower, I think, so you
can start.
Or a whiteboard.
Or, my kids have these, um,crayons, bath crayons.
They just roll all over the wallwith it.
So really, Um, maybe you need toget yourself some of them and
just draw on the wall.
It would look like the visionaryof a madman or something, like

(15:52):
all these like red scrollsriding in the bath, shower.
Yes, there's a, there's anawesome children's author called
Nat Amor who also talks aboutgetting her ideas.
I think it's quite common.
I think it's, I reckon it's acommon thing, but also I think
writers are always good walkersbecause that's a nice way for

(16:14):
your mind to switch off.
Yeah.
It sounds like that's where,what you do.
Yeah.
If it's not flowing or, youknow, sometimes just staring at
the wall, you know, often withthe computer open because you're
hoping that the ideas willsomehow flow onto the, into the
computer.
But yeah, it is just about.
Even when you don't thinkanything is there and you have

(16:35):
no ideas and no suggestions.
It is just about even going forthat walk and something
triggering you, a dog or a birdor, you know, a kid or something
triggers you and it just, youjust have to sit with it,
doesn't it?
And there's always, I think the,the, the brilliant thing about
it and you have to keep tellingyourself is I've always been
able to find just solution.

Kylie Orr (16:56):
So

even if you've come across a problem, you're
like, I'm never going to getover this.
That's not going to be helpful.
You just have to go.
No, it'll come.
You just have to sit with it.
It's so true.
But in that moment, Hey, whenyou, you were like, this is, I
can't fix this.
This is terrible.
And, but it does.
And I think you do have to doit.
a few times to realize, no, youcan, you do always find your way

(17:20):
out of it and you do always finda way to fix the, you know, the
plot issue or whatever it wasthat was getting you stumped.
But it's so true that you saythat because that even happened
with my third book, the lastbook that I handed into my
publisher.
I literally pulled it all apartthe week before it was due on

Kylie Orr (17:36):
my

Fijian holiday.
Getting up at 3am.
Great time to do it.
Um, but yeah, You know, and Iwas just like, this is an
absolute mess, I'm never goingto get to the end of it.
And I was trying to say tomyself, no, but you, you know,
you know, this has happenedbefore and you know, you can get
through to the end.
Um, and when you get there,you'll be like, oh, that's
right.
I knew that all along.

(17:59):
It's such a mind game, isn't it?
It is.
It is.
Do you find now, after havingwritten three plus books, that
when you're, oh, I shouldactually ask you, are you a
plotter or a painter?
Um, I think I change all thetime.
Um, and I was a, I started as apants up.

(18:19):
Should we explain what that isto anyone?
It doesn't.
Yes.
Yeah.
So pants up.
You see, you're right on theseat of your pants.
You have no idea what's aroundthe corner or you might only
know what's just around thecorner.
Yeah.
You, you plot it out.
You're plotting.
And I think there's differinglevels of all of that.
of those two things.

(18:40):
Um, and then there's Plantsa,which is when you're in the
middle.
Oh, I've heard of this.
But I think they're different.
I think they're different.
Um, like there's differentlevels and, and for people, but
I used to pants and I just, Iwrote a whole, a whole book
pantsing it, but there is apoint, you know, where you do go
back and you, and you editingand that's all part of plotting.

(19:03):
And, and I think if you don'tplot first, you just have to
edit.
And you end up sort of doing,kind of doing it anyway.
And then I, I mean, my brain is,um, loves, um, a good, you know,
spreadsheet and it loves themath.
It loves the math of writing.
So I love story grid and, um,save the cat.

(19:24):
And I don't know any of these.
Oh, we're going to have to do anepisode on tools, I think.
I have actually created a mushof the two.
Really?
So it's because I, it is sosatisfying.
So there's a manuscript that I'mworking on at the moment, which
I'm really plotting.
But I think it's all, somepeople would also call it, You

(19:45):
have zero draft of pantsing, butlike, I'm literally plotting in
Scrivener every single chapterand then making, and then I keep
checking back to make sure thatI'm hitting like the
mathematical equations of wherethings technically are supposed
to happen in Storygrid and Savethe Cat.

(20:05):
And I have to say, when, whenyou plot something out and then
you go and check it to thesemath, you know, kind of the
maths behind what makes.
a good story, or in a good plot,and it actually hits it because
you've just done it innatelyanyway.
That is, that is glorious forme.
I love that.
Oh my gosh.
Let's do a whole other episodeon the math of writing.

(20:29):
Um, because yeah, some peoplehate that sort of thing, but I,
I love it.
I've okay.
I've never heard of it.
Save the cat or what was theother one?
Story grid.
Story grid.
Never heard of it.
Heard of, I've heard ofScrivener, but never used it,
but I've heard that you can't goback when you start with going
down Scrivener.
Um, I am old fashioned.
I use Word.

(20:49):
Do you?
Yep.
And then my, um, editor, shegave me a spreadsheet where she
kind of tracks the plot thingsthat happened on the plot.
Aha, see.
She gave me that.
I was like, Oh, this is reallyhow it's the math.
Yep.
It was just in my head.
Otherwise, cause I'm a fullpanther.
I was going to say you'reclearly a panther then if, if,
yeah, no idea about structure.
I just was like, yeah, throw itall in and see what happens.

(21:12):
And now I'm, well, this is whyI'm on my third structural edit.
So yeah.
Oh, I don't know.
Yeah.
Perhaps.
Well, let's, let's chat aboutstory grid another time.
I think that's.
That's good.
And listeners as well.
If you do want to hear aboutthis, let us know as well on our
Instagram, if this is notsomething you want us to talk
about.
I mean, I'm very, veryinterested, but I'm curious to

(21:34):
see if other writers areinterested as well.
Would you like an episode whereTina tries to convince Madeleine
that the math in the writing isthe best?
Awesome.
Fun.
My maths teacher would be sohappy about this.
She was always trying toconvince me why maths was
important, even though I was avery English kind of minded
person.
So, all right, we'll leave thatfor another episode.
Kylie Orr is an author of darkand twisty contemporary fiction.

(22:00):
Her debut novel, Someone Else'sChild, was long listed in the
Rochelle Prize and published byHarperCollins in 2022.
Her second novel, The EleventhFloor, hit shelves in February
this year, was chosen as anApple Books Must Read and Book
of the Week in the Age andAffiliate newspapers nationally.
Last year, when I was a wideeyed and freshly signed author,
I met Kylie and found her to bewonderfully warm, kind, and

(22:23):
generous.
I think you'll find the samewhen you listen to our
discussion, as we talkcompetitions, agents, wins and
woes, and much, much more.
Kylie Orr, welcome to the BookDeal Podcast.
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited.
Yay! And congratulations too onyour amazing two novels, which I
have with me here, um, which Ihave to say I absolutely loved

(22:45):
and absolutely consumed them.
So thank

Kylie Orr (22:47):
you.
You do have to say that becauseyou can't sit in front of me and
say they're terrible, but youcan say that off camera.

Genuinely love them everyone.
So please, please do pick themup.
I'm also personally so excitedto have you on board because
I've attended some of yourevents in person and I know you
have some absolutely wonderfulinsights to share with us.
Um, but before we jump into allof the things.
I just want to find out a littlebit more about your writing
process before you werepublished, because I know you

(23:16):
were writing feature articlesfor 20 years for many different
media outlets before youpublished your first novel.
So for you, do you think writinga novel was the next logical
step?

Kylie Orr (23:26):
Um, gee, when you say 20 years, it makes me sound
really old, doesn't it?
Uh, no, it was not the nextlogical step.
I had never intended to write anovel.
I wanted to write children'sbooks.
And so I was part of achildren's book, um, writers
group at the library.
And so that's where my energywas concentrated.
And I also had young children atthe time.

(23:47):
So I was reading lots ofchildren's books, wondering how
the hell did this rubbish getpublished?
And of course I can do it betterthan they can, uh, found out I
can't do it better than theycan.
Um, but I was writing, yeah, 800word features for the age and
daily life and essential baby.
And I actually had.

(24:07):
An editor from pan Macmillanchecked me on LinkedIn.
How does that happen, Kylie?
That's amazing.
It's like, I liken it to being awaitress in New York, who's like
desperate to break intoHollywood.
And I mean, not New York, Idon't know, anyway, in LA and
then I don't know, they getapproached and say, you'd be
great as the lead actor in thisamazing blockbuster anyway,

(24:30):
happened like that.
Wow.
She emailed and said she'd readsome of my articles and she
thought I had a good voice forwomen's fiction.
And did I have any gems lying inmy bottom drawer?
And I was kind of like, gosh,that's a weird email to get.
Hold my writers group and justkind of shrugged it off.
Like, well, I'm not going towrite a novel.

(24:52):
So I'm just probably going tosay no.
And they were like, are youcrazy?
Nobody ever emails you to ask,have you got a book?
Just say yes.
And I was like, but I don't,they're like, make something up.
So I made up two synopses.
One was funny and one wassomeone else's child.
And she said, I like the soundof the funny one, but nobody
buys funny books.

(25:13):
I don't believe that.
I'm well, that was back way, waywhen before COVID and now
everybody buys funny booksbecause life is heavy.
Uh, anyway, so she said, give methe first 20, 000 words of
someone else's child.
And I had no idea how to write anovel.
So I.
Sat down and tried to start thisnovel that I did not plan and my

(25:35):
husband who works in IT that youjust met because we had some
sound difficulties at the startof this, uh, he said to me, just
start at the start.
I'm like, wow, that is superunhelpful.
Start at the start.
I don't know where the start is.
Anyway, I managed to cobbletogether 20, 000 words, sent it
to her.
It went to an acquisitionsmeeting, which I'm sure you will
explain to your listeners atsome point, if they don't

(25:57):
already know, and it fell down.
It fell down at acquisitions,and then I did not hear from her
again, ever.
Wow.
Uh, so yeah, that was a bit of ashock to the system, but then I
was determined that I was goingto write this novel to the end
just to prove to myself that Icould.

Amazing.
20, 000 words though, how do yougo from zero to 20, 000?
With great difficulty.

Kylie Orr (26:20):
Let me tell you, I banged my head on the keyboard.
I started at different pointsand I'm like, no, that doesn't
work.
That doesn't work.
And because I'd never written anovel, I just sort of approached
it like, you know, each I'dwritten some short stories.
So I was like, maybe eachchapter can just be like a short
story.
And then I just connect theshort stories.
Doesn't work like that either.
So yes, I, I go back and look atwhat I sent her and it was

(26:43):
terrible.
Any wonder it fell downacquisitions, but I didn't know
what I was doing.
So,

but also incredible that she took 20, 000
words to acquisitions, because Idon't think I've ever heard that
before.
That's, that's quitesignificant.
So obviously you, you have thattalent, the, the, the writing
talent, you, you understandwomen's voice.
What do you think that means inpractice?
What, what does women's voicemean?

Kylie Orr (27:05):
I don't know.
It's not a conscious thing.
I mean, I, I am a woman and Ihave a voice and I have opinions
and I guess maybe it comesthrough in my writing.
I don't know.
I think when I wrote forEssential Baby, um, you know, I
was having children at the timeand ended up with four of them.
I mean, I didn't end up withthem.
I did choose to have them.
I just appeared on my doorstep,but, um, I think I just was

(27:29):
trying to take a more honest,lighthearted approach to
parenting, because I just feltlike everything was telling you
how you should be doing it, andI actually just wanted to tell
the reality of it.
And so perhaps that authenticitywas attractive at the time, and
maybe it just kind of filled agap that wasn't quite there.
Unfortunately, I was not able totranslate that to a novel at

(27:52):
that stage.
So yeah, it is, and I thinktaking a part manuscript.
Acquisitions, particularly forsomeone who's never written a
novel or a debut is.
highly unlikely to get up.
But it was nice because sheactually planted the seed in my
head.
Maybe I do want to write anovel.
Maybe I do have something tosay.
And in novels, particularlydomestic suspense, you can talk

(28:15):
about much broader themes thanyou can in a children's book.

Do you still have that synopsis, the funny
novel, sitting in your drawer?
I

Kylie Orr (28:21):
do.
And I did because I have, at myevents, I have a lot of people
actually, every single eventI've done, somebody in the
audience has said, Would youever write a funny book?
Cause you're pretty funny.
And when I say that, I hate it.
Cause then people are like,well, where's, where's all the
funny?
How come she's not that funny?
Um, my family don't think I'mfunny.
They don't laugh at anything,but I have teenagers, so they're

(28:43):
never going to laugh.
Unless they're laughing at merather than with me.
So yeah, I did pull it out andtry, tried, but I don't know, my
head just is, it just diverts todark themes.

Okay.
So, so you've, you've got thisrejection from Pagan Macmillan,
um, but it's a great step firststep, I think, in, in knowing
that you, you can go and dothis.
So what, what do you do then?
What are you, what did you thensit down and go, I want to, we
want to finish the novel, butthen what's the next step?

Kylie Orr (29:15):
Just googled.
How do you write a novel?
And then I was like readingeverything doing little mini
courses.
I enrolled in short courses.
I just tried to practicewriting, writing.
And then I I can't rememberwhich order it was in.
I won a scholarship to FionaMcIntosh's Um, commercial

(29:38):
fiction masterclass, which isamazing.
Like I cried when I got thephone call, must've thought I
was unhinged because my dad wasactually very sick at the time
he was dying of cancer and itwas very hard to invest
emotional energy into writing,but I was trying to sort of do
it, you know, I was at fourlittle kids.
My youngest had just startedschool.

(29:59):
So I was trying to use that yearas a year to really sink my
teeth into this idea.
And, um, so when I got thescholarship, it kind of
confirmed to me that there wassomething in this story that was
worth pursuing.
And then I, luckily, cause I wonthe scholarship, I didn't have
to pay to go.
But then when I got back, Iwanted to make sure I could

(30:20):
write the book to the end.
So I paid for a mentorship withCatherine Heyman, who's an
Australian author.
And that was a six monthmentorship where I had to give
her 10, 000 words every month.
And then we'd have an hour Zoomat the end of the month.
So incredible.
Yeah, I sort of had thistutorage that she didn't teach
me how to write, but she gave medeadlines.

(30:41):
And then we spoke about whatneeded to happen in that
chapter.
What all that 10, 000 words,what I needed to fix and just
exploring character and stuff.
So it sort of helped me learnhow to write a book to the end.
And the rest was just many, manyyears of editing and trial and
error.
Uh, and yeah, it took from the,the seed of an idea that I sent

(31:03):
to that Pam McMillan editor.
To the time my book hit a shelfwas seven years,

seven years, and a lot of investment
financially in that as well,

Kylie Orr (31:13):
which is also very hard to justify when you're not
earning a massive income.
I was trying to do freelancewriting around it and you know,
that was not bringing in a lotof cash.
And thankfully my husband wasvery supportive because he runs
his own business that I 20years.
And I've been the main carerand, you know, Put a lot of free

(31:34):
energy and hours into supportinghis work and he is like, well,
now it's your turn.
So that's nice.
But, you feel a bit

of pressure in that then as well?
So you've obviously supportedhim and then he's now supporting
you through that seven yearjourney.
Did you feel the pressure to,to, to really get the contract?

Kylie Orr (31:52):
Uh, not from him at all, but pressure from myself.
Like I, you know, I've, I'vequite stressed and frustrated
about not being.
Making much money and thenhaving to invest money to learn
this new skill.
Um, which I guess is like anapprenticeship, you know, it's
like any new job, you've got totrain yourself to do it.
Um, but there's no guarantee atthe end of this one, that's the

(32:14):
difference.
I mean, train for a new job andthen apply for jobs and
hopefully get a job.
But in publishing, it doesn'twork like that.
So no, it

doesn't.
And thankfully it did work outfor you.
So when you did type the endthough, of someone else's child,
your debut novel.
So what, what do you do then?
How do you approach, when do youknow when it's ready?
And when do you go out into theworld with it?

Kylie Orr (32:36):
Well, I don't think you know, I know for sure.
Now looking back, it's neverready after one draft.
Please don't ever, ever sendyour manuscript out after one
draft.
It is not ready.
Um, so I redrafted it manytimes.
I had some people close to meread it.
So, I have a sister in law who'sa GP, so she's great.

(32:57):
She's an avid reader, but alsoshe gives me medical stuff.

And there's a reason for that, everybody, that
it's why it would be importantto have a GP in this, but we
won't give out spoilers.
Correct.

Kylie Orr (33:07):
In both my books, actually.
And I have a friend who's apolice officer.
So she reads it for, you know,police, it's not a police
procedural, but, you know, justto make sure I'm using the right
titles and whatever, she's very

helpful.

Kylie Orr (33:22):
And then I have a cousin who is.
Um, a social worker, um, and anavid reader.
And so I got a few people toread it and give me feedback and
then I decided I didn't knowwhat to do next.
I'd tried to, I'd sent it out toa few and just got radio
silence.
And then, um.

(33:43):
To publishers or to agents

initially?
To publishers initially.
Mm hmm.

Kylie Orr (33:47):
And Fiona McIntosh helped me with one of the
submissions, and I got a prettybrutal rejection that way, and I
remember crying on my keyboard.
I got it on like a Friday night.
My husband was away for work,and I had to take my sons to
their football training.
And I read the email and justwas sobbing onto my keyboard and

(34:09):
my eldest son, who was like, Idon't know, he might've been 10
at the time.
He came and just kind of pattedme on the back and said, it's
all right, mum.
And he's like, what's wrong?
I said, they don't like mystory.
And he was like, it's okay,somebody will like it.

Oh, isn't it so nice to have children who can
go and comfort you in thatmoment?
I know! That's very beautiful.
Um,

Kylie Orr (34:32):
yeah, so I had so many rejections and then I
entered the ritual prize.
And it is called the RitualPrize.
I have double checked this.
Not the Rochelle.
It's Ritual.
Lots of people say Rochelle, butit's named after Matt Ritual.
Yes.
Yes.
Hannah was married to Matt.
And so I actually checkeddirectly with her in a tweet.
Does it rhyme with Michelle orMitchell?

(34:55):
Um, anyway, I had entered theRitual Prize the year before and
got nothing with a differentmanuscript.
Um, and then I thought, oh,well, this one's just sitting
here.
Let's just send it and see whathappens.
Nothing happened last time.
What have I got to lose?

And the ritual prize, correct me if I'm wrong,
it's just the first threechapters, isn't it?
And then you've got the synopsisfor the rest of the novel.
Is that right?

Kylie Orr (35:16):
Correct.
And it's for emerging, uh,unpublished authors.
Perfect.
Um, so yes, I thought, oh, well,it gives me a deadline.
I like deadlines and I, I triedto enter different competitions
just to keep my writing musclegoing and sometimes it would
just be like a short storycompetition.
So I just, if this manuscriptwas driving me nuts, I would go

(35:37):
and try to just write a shortstory and then enter a short
story competition and you know,it didn't get recognition in
many, many of them gotshortlisted in some and uh,
anyway, so I sent this off tothe Sorry, before that, I had
paid an external editor.
So after I got my brutalrejection, um, it was originally

(35:57):
written from three points ofview and I think it just wasn't
working and the brutal rejectionreally cut deep, but I didn't
want to give up on it.
And so I decided to pay aneditor.
I think it was 1, 500 at thetime.
Again, I Well, there's a lot ofmoney that you don't have, that
you're not earning

with no guarantee at the end.

Kylie Orr (36:17):
Correct.
But I just didn't know what todo after that.
I didn't know how to make itbetter.
I knew it wasn't working, but Ididn't know how to fix it.
And so I paid this editor whowas fantastic.
She gave me an 11 page report.

Wow.

Kylie Orr (36:30):
How did you find the editor as well?
I asked around for somereferrals and this particular
editor, she said, well, youknow, I think she used to work
for one of the big publishers,but now she's like freelance and
contracts back.
And she like had edited LianeMoriarty and Wow.
Oh yeah.
What an opportunity.
She's, she's it.
Um, and she was fabulous andtold me the three points of view

(36:52):
are not working.
You either need to, I mean, verydelicately, she didn't say it as
directors are, but she justsaid, you either need to develop
two of the The three charactersmore, or you need to rewrite it
from this one character whosevoice is strong.
So I rewrote the whole thingfrom one point of view.
It was a nightmare.
I didn't even know, I didn'teven understand how, like, you

(37:14):
know, if there's a scene andthat particular character was
not in that scene.
How was I supposed to rewritethat scene if she's not even in
the room?
So yeah, it was a bit of a mindboggle.
Huge.
Massive,

massive

Kylie Orr (37:25):
structural

change.

Kylie Orr (37:27):
But a better book for it.
And that's what I entered intothe Ritual Prize and I was long
listed.
Didn't know.
Like when I entered the RitualPrize the first time, I was like
manifesting, I put it in mydiary the day it was announced,
I was visualizing my name on along list.
Never happened.

(37:47):
None of it happened.
And then the second time, Ientered and forgot about it.
And then started getting allthese phone calls on this day,
had all these missed calls and Iwas like, what's going on?
And yeah, one of my friends rangand he said, you're on the long
list for the ritual prize.
And so I pulled over to the sideof the road and had a cry
because I knew this would bewhere it all changes.

(38:08):
So yeah, that got me an agent.
And that agent started pitchingmy work in March, 2020.

An amazing time for the publishing
industry.
Honestly.
Well timed, Kylie.

Kylie Orr (38:19):
Shocking, shocking timing.
Anyway, so yes, then went on toget many more rejections and
finally secured a two book dealwith HQ Fiction HarperCollins in
October 2020.

Amazing.
What an incredible story.
And so this was what, abouteight, seven, eight years worth
of work.

Kylie Orr (38:39):
I think it was like five years by that time, and
then it didn't hit shelves untilJune 2022.
So like another 18 months later.
Yeah.

Before I even saw the book on the shelf.
After going through all of thosedifferent structural edits and
editing, going through theprocess.
But.
Here it is.
Here it is.
So exciting.
It was originally

Kylie Orr (38:57):
called The Fundraiser, so clearly I'm not
good at titles.
Oh, I can

see that.
Yeah, someone else's child.
And I know that you've alwayssaid as well that you never
expected to have a pink, a pinkspine.
But I think it's a beautifulcover.
It is a gorgeous cover.
Yeah.
Amazing.
So, um, I thought, given TheEleventh Floor, which is your
latest novel, um, which wasreleased in January this year.
Yep.
Yep.

(39:21):
This is something that, um, allauthors absolutely love to do,
uh, is pitch their novel.
Do they?
They absolutely love it.
It's their favourite part ofevery, every interview.
Um, now it's been about, uh, sixor seven months since it's been
released, so I'm not sure howmany times you've been pitching
it since then.
But would you, Kylie Orr, pleasepitch your book, The Eleventh

(39:43):
Law, to us?

Kylie Orr (39:44):
Sure, I can.
Uh, it's about Gracie, who's atired mum of a young baby, and
she is not coping.
Her husband encourages her tohave one night in a hotel, just
where she can rest andrejuvenate, just by herself.
So he stays home with the baby,she goes to the hotel with the
intention of Ordering roomservice and, you know, sleeping

(40:04):
in instead, she goes to arooftop bar and has a cocktail
and meets a man and she ends upin his room and she can't
remember how she got there.
And then when she wakes andshe's shocked, she decides to
sneak out.
But as she sneaks out, shewitnesses a crime.
And so.
Reporting what she saw willjeopardize her marriage, but

(40:27):
staying silent might costsomebody else their life.

So

Kylie Orr (40:31):
she's in this dilemma.

Amazing.
Well done.
Great pitch.
Um, highly recommend everyoneread this book, um, get a copy.
It's fantastic.
And so interesting.
Did you find the writing processof writing the sec, your second
book different to someone else'schild?
Did you feel more confident?

Kylie Orr (40:47):
Look, when my first book was getting rejected, the
advice I got was to move on toanother book, start writing
something else, which I wassuper offended by at the time,
because I felt like I was givingup on this first book.
Um, but it was good advicebecause it got my headspace out
of that constant ruminationabout why I was getting rejected
and whatever.

(41:07):
Um, and so I had started writingthe second one and tried really
hard to do a better job ofplanning because obviously the
first book was my apprenticeshipbook.
I had no idea what I was doing.
It was so messy and chaotic andit took me ages to just figure
it out.
The editing process was awful.
So the second book, I thoughtI'm going to approach this

(41:28):
differently.
I'm going to try and plan.
And I did.
Do a very, very vague plan, butultimately it's just not how I
write.
And so I'd liken it to sort oftossing all the parts of an IKEA
cabinet on the floor and tryingto piece it together without
instructions.
And sometimes you're missingscrews and it's a bit wonky.
Um, I think with the secondbook, and now that I've written

(41:51):
the third, I just trust myintuition more.
So if something's not working, Idon't, it doesn't stop me.
I just go, yeah, well, that'snot working and we're just going
to have to fix that later.
And I know that editing isactually where the magic
happens.
So we, we will fix it later.
Um, but, and I, I am confidentenough in myself that I can
rework something now because Ihave written a whole book to

(42:14):
start messiest way possible andmanaged to get it to a polished
book at the end.

And so, um, with your third book, have you
given it out to your, do youstill give it out to your family
and friends?
The, so you've got your friendwho's the GP and friend who's a
police officer, or do you now,is it now something between you
and, and your publisher or nowwith your agent?

Kylie Orr (42:36):
Uh, I still give it to the GP.
I'm not sure if I've given thisone to the police officer.
I can't remember probably less.
So, and I do have a couple of,um, midwife scenes and I also
have a sister in law who's amidwife.
You know,

everybody.
I have

Kylie Orr (42:52):
sent her just those chapters to double check that
that's all, you know, kosher.
Um, I do have some goodcontacts.
I've got a lawyer, a friendwho's a lawyer.
So she has helped me with a fewthings as well.
So it is currently with, uh, myagent.

So let's talk about your agent actually.
So this is very recent andexciting news.
Um, so do you want to tell usabout what you announced last
week?

Kylie Orr (43:17):
Sure.
I have signed with ZeitgeistAgency with Samuel Bernard.
Very excited.
So I did have different agentsfor the first two books, but we
went in different directions.
And then I was un agented, unagented, that's hard to say, for
a while and was in two mindsabout whether I, because I
already have an establishedrelationship with my publisher.

(43:39):
Um, and, um, And also I hadnothing to offer a new agent
because I got a two book dealunder one agent and then, um, we
parted ways and then I reallyneeded to write a new book to
have a new agent be interested.
So yes, Samuel is veryenthusiastic and driven and very
insightful with his edits.

(44:00):
So it's, I'm actually just inlove with him.
Oh, it's not, it's not in frontof me.
I, um, I'm in final sort ofediting stage before I give it
to him, but this is kind of howI print, like I literally print
out.

So for those just listening online, um,
listening, Kylie's just held upa massive printed out manuscript
that's been nicely bound aswell.
Yeah.
Look at all, and it's covered inlots of markings.
So I go, I do manual editsbecause

Kylie Orr (44:28):
when I'm trying to keep the whole book in my head,
I find it really hard to do thatonline, like in Word or
whatever.
So if I can read the whole thingas one, that means I remember
that I already mentioned that inchapter two, now I've mentioned
it again in chapter 11, I needto get rid of that.
Whereas when you're just editingin little bits and pieces,
sometimes you can't hold it allin your head.

(44:49):
So I do have the final printedout copy that I'm.
Doing manual edits and then Iwill fix it in Word and send it
to Samuel next week.
And then hopefully we'll start.
Yeah.

I'm interested to know, where did you, so
obviously you landed on the sideof, yep, you wanted to be an
agent and author.
How did you come to thatdecision?
Because it's, it's always atricky one, a balance, I think,
particularly for those startingout in the industry, the
question is, do you apply for.
to agents first, or do you godirectly to Australian, to
publishers?
Cause I know in the Australianindustry, you don't have to have

(45:23):
an agent to approach publishers.
So what, what, what do youthink, what's your advice,
Kylie?

Kylie Orr (45:28):
Look, I think for me, I had tried.
Prior to getting my first agent,I'd tried, I'd approached
publishers and was gettingnowhere.
So then, but also it's a trickybalance because if you, our
industry is quite small here.
So if I approach all the bigpublishers and some of the
little ones and they all say no,and then I go to an agent,

(45:49):
you've left the agent not verymany options to pitch your work.

That's good insight.

Kylie Orr (45:54):
People change, people move on from jobs and, you know,
ultimately it's the personreading it who has to fall in
love with it.
And those people do move on andswitch between publishers and go
into other jobs.
So it's not that it's forever,like you've done your dash.
But, um, I think to me, an agentjust has insights, established

(46:16):
relationships.
I mean, you can do all thisyourself.
That's hardly.
You know, an option, but youhave to wait for a publisher to
open their submissions.
Then you have to kind ofresearch what they're looking
for.
You've really got to cater yourpitch.
Like you're writing a resume fora job.
You can't just send a blanket,you know, you, you want to cater

(46:36):
it.
And each publisher will ask forsomething different.
They might ask for the first 10,000 words.
They might ask for the firstthree chapters.
They might, you know, you haveto do a query letter, all those
things that we spend hours andhours on, if you actually are
serious about getting your workpublished and I had.
Done all of that, but it wasn'tworking.
And so an agent to me just hasan inroads and obviously they

(46:59):
also know which editor likesthis kind of genre, this style.
I think this will be a great fitfor so and so.
We don't know that as writers,especially as aspiring writers.
Yes.
Um, so to me, and also.
You, you know, pay a fee, likethey take 15%, but they also do
a lot of free work at the start.

(47:20):
They're reading a lot ofmanuscripts there.
Um, and to me, 15 percent ofsomething is better than no
percent of nothing.
So I, and also I think, I mean,an agent is like a publisher.
You've got to find the rightfit.
And I think Samuel is a good fitfor me because he understands
the way I work.
I like clear communication.
I don't, I'm not great with, um,Lack of transparency, like I

(47:45):
would much rather have theinformation, even if it's bad,
and then just work with that,then try and have someone sort
of, you know, keep me a littlebit in the dark because they
don't want to upset me.
I just want to know, just tellme, like if something's not
working or whatever.
Um, so in the end, and also hehas worked very hard to, you

(48:07):
know, Do you, do you want me topitch you for this festival?
Do I, and I wasn't evenrepresented by him at the time.
So it was already showing methat he was champion.
So that to me was enough to say,yeah, and also he's fairly new

(48:30):
to the agency, which means he's,he's hungry, like he wants to
build his list.
He's passionate and he knowshe's got the guidance of
experienced agents and yeah, itseemed like a no brainer, but it
took me six months to decidethat.

Well, I think it's really exciting, Kylie, and
I can't wait to find out.
Are you allowed to tell us alittle bit about your third book
or is that under wraps at themoment?
Yeah, I can tell you.
I mean, I

Kylie Orr (48:52):
haven't sorted out the elevator pitch.
Um, I'll tell you what inspiredit.
It's about coercive control,which I know is a pretty hefty
topic, but all of my books havefairly hefty topics in them.
Um, I saw that there was Adomestic violence service in
Ringwood, which is thesoutheastern suburbs of
Melbourne.

(49:14):
And I know there's many of thesespotted around, but they were
doing a training program forhairdressers and beauticians in
spotting the signs of coercivecontrol and domestic violence.
Not as a way to tellhairdressers and beauticians how
to intervene, but as a source torefer Um, resources, and I just

(49:35):
thought that was such goodthinking outside the box.
I mean, domestic violence issuch a massive issue.
Women's safety, you know, andwhat we're learning, especially
from Jess Hill, see what youmade me do, um, is it all starts
back at coercive control.
So I was just so intrigued bythe idea of, you know, You know,

(49:57):
an intelligent, you know,educated woman falling for a
charming man, and then gettingstuck in this situation that is
just sort of, you know, quietlyundermining her and then feeling
in a way like she couldn't getout.
And I, I think that if you writeit in fiction, to me, the hope

(50:19):
is that somebody will read itand recognize themselves in it
because there's a lot of dataout there.
There's a lot of research oncoercive control, but it's very
heavy stuff to read through.
I feel like if you put it in afictional story, sometimes you
can get a different messagethrough to people and it might
connect in a different way.
So I have Val who's ahairdresser and then I have Isla

(50:41):
who's a British backpacker who'scome to Australia for an
adventure.
Doesn't plan to fall in lovewith someone, but does.
And he moves her to the islandwhere Val is a hairdresser and
Val starts to spot some thingsand intervenes probably in a way
that she shouldn't.

Oh, Kylie, that sounds like an incredible
book.
And it's a story I think thathas to be told.
I mean, I think this is morecommon in our society than we
know and realize.

Kylie Orr (51:07):
Absolutely.

And often it's as well, it's, it's hard to
identify those red flags forwomen who are in those
situations too, in thoserelationships.

Kylie Orr (51:16):
Yeah.
And I've interviewed a lot ofwomen, um, because I'm really
interested in that, um, Thatinitial sort of slide, like
nobody starts a relationshipwith someone, you know,
insulting them or physicallyhurting them and stays in it.
Like, you know, they really lovebomb them and woo them in.
And so that's the part thatreally intrigued me.

(51:36):
I mean, it does go to prettydark places, but I always leave
my reader with hope.
I want them to finish the bookand feel like everybody who
needs to be okay is okay.

And I would say that is very similar to your
first two books.
The themes, when you read theblurb, they seem heavy, but
there is always that beautifulmoment of hope, which I think is
really lovely and important.
Oh, thank you.

Kylie Orr (51:56):
Yeah.
So I'm looking

forward to reading your third book.
It sounds fantastic.
Um, just on something different,because I know you have an
amazing Profile online and youconnect with so many people.
And obviously you've got lots offriends and people who do
different things, but you alsoconnect online with a whole
community there.
Do you want to talk a little bitabout your, cause you use
Instagram primarily, I know asa, you're also also a social

(52:18):
media profile, but how did youbuild your following and do you
think it's important for authorsto have it?

Kylie Orr (52:24):
Look, I think I know plenty of authors who are highly
successful without social media.
I think if you write a goodbook, that's probably the most
important thing.
I guess if you have hundreds ofthousands of followers and you
write a book that might be veryappealing to a publisher, but
most of us don't have that manyfollowers.
Um, I started on Instagram whenmy children's books came out.

(52:47):
So I did end up having fourchildren's books published, um,
and was quite uncomfortableabout it.
And I didn't.
My husband, as I mentionedbefore, is in IT and absolutely
hates social media.
He doesn't like Mark Zuckerberg.
He's he, he just, and if I evercomplained to him about social
media, he just looks at me like,yeah.
Cause it's crap, like don't beon it, but I feel like it's hard

(53:10):
not to be on it.
And I feel like Instagram hasbeen amazing for me in
connecting me to the bookcommunity.
So who knows if it helps withsales, but that's kind of not
really why I'm on there.
I feel like it's, I've metbeautiful books to grammars.
I've met other authors.
I've met.
librarians, booksellers, likebookish people.

(53:33):
And it's so nice, particularlywhen you're a new author and you
turn up to an event and you're abit nervous and there's somebody
in that audience that yourecognize from, or whatever,
that is really nice.
Excuse me.
I'm not getting emotional.
I just lost my voice.

You can get emotional about that.
That's fine.

Kylie Orr (53:51):
So, yeah, it's been a slow build.
I mean, I've been on there for afew years and, you know, I'm not
breaking any records and youknow, it's tricky to find the
balance because I try not to.
Like, I want it to be all round,and I want it to be authentic
and honest, which is who I am,but also has got me into
trouble.
Um, so, and also I'm trying torespect my kids privacy, and you

(54:13):
know, they're teenagers, so theydon't really want to be, like,
they don't even post on there.
Do they follow you, though?
I think so.
I mean, I did, I put up a, youprobably saw it.
I put up a, like a dance video.
Oh yes, I saw that.

That was fantastic.
Your humor definitely shinesthrough on your Instagram for
everyone listening.
That's good.
Go check it out.
Thank you.
I

Kylie Orr (54:34):
mean, I

think it's You've got great

Kylie Orr (54:35):
dance moves, Chloe.
I'm jealous.
But my 13 year old daughter saidto me, Oh my God, don't post
that mom.
My friends follow you.
And that's going to be soembarrassing.
And for a moment I was like, Oh,like, I don't want this to come
off badly for her.
Like, I don't want to post thatand then have her friends go, Oh

(54:55):
my God, your mom's soembarrassing.
But in the end I was like, youknow what, 13 year olds.
I'm not my bloody audience andthey can just unfollow me if
they don't like it and I said toher, you know, only you think
your own parent is embarrassing.
Like growing up, I had friendswho I thought their dads were
hilarious, but they werehorrified by their dads, you

(55:16):
know, but I didn't think that Icould see their dad might be
embarrassing to them, but theyweren't embarrassing to me as
the friend.
And so in the end, I was like,Screw this.
I would actually rather showher, this is who I am
unapologetically.
I'm just putting a bit of funout there.
I'm not claiming to be some kindof dance star.

(55:37):
I'm just showing them a littlebit of insight into my life,
which is sometimes at breakfastI dance and my kids roll their
eyes and go, here she goesagain.
And.
Okay.
Thank you.
Whatever.
Like, I think we, we overanalyzeit too much and people worry
about the algorithms and allthat.
I know nothing about that.
I don't care.
I tried TikTok.

(55:58):
I was terrible.
I didn't do any dancing overthere.
I haven't

ventured into TikTok either.
I think that's a whole newworld.

Kylie Orr (56:04):
I use it to actually, I almost use it like Google now,
like, which is probably bad, butyou know, I search different
things on there, but I'vestopped posting.
And my publisher actually saidto me in the nicest possible
way.
You don't need to be on TikTok.
We've got young people for that.
I was like, are you telling meI'm too old?
No, no, no.
But if you're not enjoying it,don't be on it.

(56:26):
Like, and I was like, yeah, I'mnot enjoying it.
I'm getting off.
And so that's what they weretrying to say.
And I think good advice I'veheard is to just pick one, pick
one that you like.
I don't love Facebook.
I don't really understandFacebook.
I don't do the cross postingbecause You know, what I've
learned is that each platformhas a very different kind of
feel.

(56:46):
And so sometimes I will takecontent from Instagram and
adjust it for Facebook, but I, Idon't, I see people who cross
promote and think, I thinkyou're missing something there.
You're not actually cateringthis to your audience, which
obviously takes time.
And maybe specialists in socialmedia say that's stupid.
Don't do that.
But I just, to me, it's almostlike, again, catering your

(57:09):
pitch.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Talk to your audience and don't,and also you don't want to just
be selling stuff all the time.
Hey, I wrote a book.
Did you hear I wrote a book?
Look at the book.
Here's the book.
See?
And when it's coming out, itfeels very much like that.
You just have to ride the buzzand hope that people will stay
with you.
But I try to sort of diversifyit a little bit.

What do you think is the time period you're
allowed when your book comes outto, to say, Hey, I've written a
book a couple of weeks, maybe.
I reckon a couple of weeks too.

Kylie Orr (57:37):
I just, I mean, you know, I was doing, I had a very
intensive event schedule that Ihad.

Yes.
I want to talk about that too,actually.
Yes.
Your event schedule, but yes,good.

Kylie Orr (57:47):
And so I was, you know, I had a lot of content I
could post and I was like, God,people getting sick of this.
And I was wearing yellow tomatch with my book cover.
So sometimes I used that as a.
An edge or I tried to maybeprofile someone who came to one
of my events because that's kindof the interesting connection
part that I like.
Um, but I, you know, even myselfwho now understands that your

(58:10):
book probably gets a month ofattention and then the next
round of books come through.
So you do have a very smallwindow to promote your book.
I mean, obviously you can stillPeter often promote it, but
people, I get sick of seeingother people's stuff After about
a week or two, I'm like, yeah,yeah, you wrote a book.
Got it.
like, great.
It's an amazing achievement.

(58:32):
Congratulations and get excitedand soak in all those moments
where it's on the shelf andstuff.
But if you keep hammering peopleover the head with it,

and in the end the people who are following
you, they've probably alreadybought.
The book or they've read it orthey've engaged with you.
It, I think I've, I had somereally good advice not to use
social media as an author tosell your books.
It's there for, as a connect, away for you to connect with the
industry and be part of theindustry.
And I think, yeah, absolutely.
If you approach it as a, a, away for you to sell your, your
books, it's, it's probably notgoing to work out the way you

(59:01):
want.
Um, unless of course you've gota massive profile, like that's
different.
Exactly.
And I'm sure

Kylie Orr (59:07):
there are people who, you know, have strategies about
converting, you know, thesethings to sales, but that is not
me.
And also it's not my job.
Like it's not, my job is towrite a good book.
That's right.
Connect with my readers.
And

not be consumed by Instagram because it
can be at all consuming as well.

Kylie Orr (59:25):
Absolutely.
And I do think it changes theway you think.
Like when I first got on it, Youknow, I'd be walking somewhere
and I'd think, Oh, that might bea good photo for Instagram.
And I'm like, who am I turnedinto now?
Like, is this who I am?
You start drafting the captionsin your head.
Yeah.
So I, I do think it does messwith your brain a little bit.
I try to balance it out, butyeah.

Yes.
No, it's a good, good thing.
So actually on your events,cause I did notice you had an
amazing schedule following thepublication of the 11th floor.
How did that.
Come to, to head, did you go andorganize some of those events
yourself and tell us about someof the reception, I suppose,
that you received in thoseevents too.

Kylie Orr (01:00:02):
Yeah.
Okay.
Um, I love events.
I love meeting readers.
Are you an extrovert?
I think so.
I think you are.
I, I, I used to be, I thinkCOVID changed things for me.
Like I used to be someone whowould go through our calendar
like and go, Oh, we've got aspare weekend.
Who can we have over?
And my husband is quiteintroverted, but loves cooking.

(01:00:24):
So it was a great way to, hewould cook and it gave him
something to talk about.
And then I would do all the, youknow.
Entertaining.
Um, but through COVID, I think Ijust got really lazy.
And now I look at my calendarand hope for a free weekend and
I don't fill it with socialthings, but I think, um, the

(01:00:45):
events, I love them, but they'reexhausting.
And also you have to be on, likeyou can't go to an event and be
feeling a bit flat or a bittired because it's like you're
one, you You know, opportunityto connect with that group of
readers and not that I, youknow, I'm not a professional
speaker.
I don't, but I feel confidentspeaking about my books, but

(01:01:06):
I've built that over time, ofcourse.
So it was very nerve wracking atthe start.
I'm happy to chat to someone Qand A, but then a couple of the
libraries were like, Oh, wedon't have anyone who can do a Q
and A.
Can you just do a presentation?
I was like, what?
Um, so yeah, it has, I've had tobuild my confidence over time,
but in terms of organizing it,that is a very individual.

(01:01:27):
Her author thing that whateversituation they've got going on
with their publisher.
What I learned from the firstbook is you really have to
capitalize on that first kind oftwo weeks to a month when the
book comes out.
And I didn't realize that.
And there was a few thingsorganized, but I didn't really
understand whose job it was toorganize them.
I, and I was so scared ofstepping on toes, like, am I

(01:01:50):
allowed to ask the publisherthat do I ask my agent that?
And, you know, the vibe I kindof got was.
We don't have a lot of time todo this.
Like if you want to do it,you're welcome to contact
whoever.
But then I was like, how do I dothat?
Do I just send an email to alibrarian?
Do I just I think that's what

Madeleine Cleary (01:02:07):
we're all asking in our current debut
crew.

Kylie Orr (01:02:09):
How do we do this?
Yeah, I think you can.
I think you just introduceyourself.
But If you can do it before thebook comes out, like, so for the
second book, I like, usually youget assigned a publicist, but
they're so run off their feet.
You're not their only author.
So, you know, they, they mightreach out to a few different
places that they haveestablished relationships with.

(01:02:30):
And, you know, I was, for mysecond book, I think I pushed a
little bit harder, felt a bitmore confident about asking for
things.
And so I did, um, They weregreat at organizing quite a few
more events than the first timearound, but I also knew from the
first time, about six months outfrom when my book, I started
contacting, but I'd builtrelationships from the first

(01:02:51):
book.
The problem with the first bookwas when it came out and then I
realized, Oh, hang on.
How do people get these events?
What am I supposed to do?
It was already three, four, fivemonths after the book had come
out.
And sometimes booksellers arenot that interested because it's
too far from release date andthen they've got all these other
books coming out or librariansmight say, yeah, we're happy for

(01:03:14):
you to come, but we can't get abookseller to come or, you know,
those, so you might have tobring your own stock.
So I just had to sort of feel myway.
And, but I established enoughrelationships with like local
libraries and that I was able tocontact them again and say, Hey,
remember me, my second book'scoming out.
How would you feel about medoing?
And so I did really hack them inat the start.

(01:03:38):
And I like nearly lost my voiceby the end because I was talking
so much.
So I think it's a balance.
But.
I, I think most debut authorswill find that they have to
arrange their own events.
That's good advice.
So don't be frightened tocontact, you know, librarians
love authors generally, ifyou're nice and polite and you
help them fill their calendar.

(01:04:00):
Um, yeah, I probably do morelibraries than any kind of, you
know, author.
Bookseller events, um, and alsoI love libraries and I love the
idea that books are accessibleto people in whatever form
because books are expensive andnot everybody can afford them.
And so I would much rather reacha reader who gets to borrow my
book than not reach them at all.
And I have done events in tinyregional towns where five people

(01:04:23):
have turned up and I've thought,gosh, was this like worth it?
I've paid petrol, I'm paying myaccommodation.
Like, mostly the publisherdoesn't have the budget to do
all that, so you are investingagain.
You know, I went to one, it wasin Kerrang in Victoria, and you

(01:04:43):
know, it was lovely.
I love meeting people.
They even asked me to go to theaged care facility.
Really?
Say hello to the people there.
So I did.
Um, anyway, but you kind of gethome and think, God, I've
actually invested all thismoney.
I wonder, I would like, there'ssort of no way to make the, you
know, a data link between howmany fails spurred from that

(01:05:04):
event.
And that's kind of not why youdo it.
You're building your brand orjust hoping to have a repeat
reader, I guess.
Anyway, when my second book cameout, I had a woman contact me
who'd come to the Kerrang eventand said, I'm not sure if you
remember me, but I came toKerrang and as soon as I saw
that your second book was out, Ibought it, loved it, just wanted
to let you know.

(01:05:24):
I mean, gosh,

how amazing.
That's why you do it.
That is.
So if you hadn't have gone tothat event with those five
people, you would never havereceived that.
And that's a really heartwarmingemail to receive.
Of

Kylie Orr (01:05:36):
course.
I mean, God, it's so nice tohear from readers when they're
not Correcting your grammar orwhatever.
Um, but stuff like that is, Imean, that, that's enough for me
to go, yeah, it's worthwhile.
And then I, I did one, um, inMornington and one of the women
who attended, enjoyed it so muchthat she ended up contacting me
when the second book came outand said, would you come and run

(01:05:56):
a workshop for our writersgroup?
And I'd never run a workshopbefore.
So I had to kind of teach myselfhow to do that.
And that, Went amazingly well,and now I've got a workshop that
I've written that hopefully Ican, you know, offer to other
organizations.
So I

think you

Kylie Orr (01:06:12):
need to not look at it as only five people turned
up.
You need to look at it and notalso look at it as well, look at
the opportunities that mightcome out of it, but just
connecting with people.
That's the key.
The nice bit.

That's wonderful.
And you went down to Tassie aswell, didn't

Kylie Orr (01:06:24):
you?
I did.
I did a few events with JoDixon, who's from the same
publisher as me.
And I love Jo and we had fun andwe did a road trip and yes, and
then she came to Melbourne and Iorganized a few events for us
together there.
And that's also great forlibraries because they get two
for one.

Exactly.
And they would just be so, Iwould imagine being really
grateful that you guys have comeout to some of those regional
areas.
They probably don't see thatmany authors coming to see.
Absolutely.

Kylie Orr (01:06:49):
And also when there's two of you, it's great because
you can just bounce off eachother.
So you can do a Q& A, nolibrarian has to necessarily do
extra work to be involved, youknow, so it's kind of.
A traveling roadshow.
That's here's something weprepared earlier.

Amazing.

Kylie Orr (01:07:03):
Yeah.

Well, I'm just going to ask you one last
question, if that's okay, Kylie.
Um, and normally on the podcast,we ask our guest authors for
their top tip for emergingwriters, but in the spirit of
your Wednesday segment on yourInstagram, which is the wins and
woes, which everyone loves.
So do check it out.
If you haven't already, Ithought I'd ask you, what's been

(01:07:25):
your biggest win so far andyour.
Gracious woe?
Is that the way to describe it?

Kylie Orr (01:07:30):
I guess so.
Firstly, I have to credit authorEliza Henry Jones with the wins
and woes idea because we have agroup chat in our writers group
that I'm in one with her and sheused to just pop in there if she
hadn't heard from us for awhile.
Okay, everyone wins and woes.
So I said to her, I just lovethis idea.
Can I steal it for Instagram andjust call it Wins and Woes

(01:07:50):
Wednesday?
And she's like, uh, yeah, Idon't own it.
Um, yeah, it's, I like itbecause it helps you focus on
like, if you're having a badweek, it also helps you focus on
something that was a win.
So, uh, do you want me to startwith my woe, I guess, and then
we'll end on a win.
Let's end on a win.
So the woe is the woe about foremerging writers.

(01:08:14):
I would say.
The biggest woe for me wasprobably the learning curve and
the reality versus theexpectation.
I think it's incredibly hard tobe seen in a sea of books that
are being released each month,and you have no control over
when your book comes out and whoit's up against when it does.

(01:08:35):
You just have to hope that yourreadership builds over time.
And even though I'd been toldthat, and I've been told to play
the long game and all of thosethings, I just I don't know.
I just assumed it was going tobe an instant bestseller and get
a movie deal.

Of course.
That is the expectation becausethat's what you read about in
the media, isn't it?

Kylie Orr (01:08:54):
Exactly.
I think.
Yeah.
I think we just, I mean, thatwas always my hope.
I was just joking about it, butyou know, some part of me is
like, well, it would be great ifit did happen.

And you have to have that hope always.

Kylie Orr (01:09:06):
Yeah.
I think the, what, I don't knowif it's a woe, but learning to
let go of the control.
Like I wanted to know every stepof the way how I, I work better
with information and I workBetter if I know how things
operate and so much ofpublishing feels like it's
behind a big heavy drape and wehave no idea what's going on
behind it.

(01:09:26):
And it almost feels like we'renot allowed to peek through, you
know, like, hi, can I have alook at how, like, I wanted to
go to like, can I come and meetthe sales team and, you know,
tell them, so they actually havea personal, you know,
connection.
And, you know, they get you tofilm little videos about your
book and stuff, but you're notmeeting.
The team and all like, butobviously you also don't want to

(01:09:46):
be that really annoying authorwho's highly demanding and, and
you're new to this.
So you want to make sureeveryone likes you and
everybody's happy with the way,you know, but I am ambitious and
I'm also older.
Like, I don't have time to juststuff around.
I've spent years waiting to getthis book published.
And then I, I don't want to seeit just fall off the shelf after

(01:10:07):
three months.
But also I didn't reallyunderstand what I could do to
impact that to make it better.
I think my mistake was that Imistook passion and ambition for
impatience.
And I think that it's very hardto be patient when you feel
everything's riding on this onemoment.

(01:10:27):
Like when my book comes out,what, what do I do?
What if it doesn't do as well asthey'd hoped or, you know, so I
think that woe probablycontinues, but I'm learning to
just let go a little bit andsay, well, I don't, I can't
control that.
I'll just control what I can.
I'll write the best book I canand, you know, ask for some
stuff and maybe I'll get it andmaybe I won't and do the events

(01:10:50):
cause I like it, not because I'mexpecting anything out of it.
And do some Instagram reelsbecause.
It's a bit of fun and that'spretty much all I can do.
And you hope that one day, youknow, you can make this your
career and make a living out ofit.

And I would imagine letting, coming to that
realization and letting that go,it's a relief, isn't it?
When you know, when you look atwhat it is that you can control,
which is writing a good book,doing the events that you really
enjoy, but all the other thingsthat go on in the background.
And I think because thepublishers, you Uh, incredibly
busy in the sales teams and allsorts of things.
Like they're operating on very,very tight timeframes

(01:11:27):
themselves.
They've got so much going on.
It's, it's quite difficult to bethat person to knock on the door
and ask questions if you can't.

Kylie Orr (01:11:33):
Yeah, absolutely.
And I've never been made to feellike I can't ask the question.
It's just that we have, youknow, particularly as debuts, we
just have this thing, like we'reso lucky that we got a book
deal, so many people want it.
I don't want to ruin it by beingthat person.
And.
Yeah.

Yes.
I was talking with CatherineCollette yesterday and I said we
need a procedural instruction onhow to be a debut.
We need to, because I come fromgovernment where everything, all
the processes are documented invery orderly ways.
That would be really handy.
It would be nice,

Kylie Orr (01:12:02):
but it's probably different for every single book.
That's the problem.
They need it.
Yeah.
I mean, I did once.
Like when I was kind offrustrated at the start, like, I
don't understand how any of thisworks.
I did like this little documentfor myself that was like, this
is all the questions I needanswered as a new author.
And stuff like, what's the printrun going to be?
And you know, like, Um, where isit selling into?

(01:12:24):
Is it going to Target?
Is it going to Kmart?
Like you don't, unless you ask,you don't necessarily get given
that information.
And I guess the publisher isalso trying to walk that
tightrope of not wanting toupset you or disappoint you like
they hold hope for your booktoo.
So, and not every single bookcan have, you know, massive

(01:12:45):
exposure, they don't havebudgets for this.
So, or time or whatever.
So I think, yeah, just learningto let go.
So I, I think.
I was worried that letting go ofcontrol meant I would care less,
like I'd linked these two ideasthat I, I only want to know how
it all works because I care.
I care about the outcome of thebook and I've kind of learned I
can still care about the outcomeand know that it's just getting

(01:13:07):
me so wound up all thesedifferent parts of cogs in the
wheel that I don't understand.
So I either will learn what Ican and then the rest.
Whatever.

That's, I think, a fantastic tip to hold
for emerging writers as a way ofsort of managing their own
expectations about the process,but also for us debuts for next
year as well.
I think it's a great tip.
And

Kylie Orr (01:13:32):
then the

win,

Kylie Orr (01:13:33):
we should end on the win.
It's hard to narrow it down, butI would say that seeing your
book on a shelf is a pretty bigwin.
Amazing.
And for me, I have no idea why,but walking through the airport
and spotting my book was like,Oh my God.
This is amazing.
This might never, ever happen tome again.
I am in an airport and my bookis on the shelf.

(01:13:54):
And that's quite hard to getinto the airport as well.
Like not every book can fit inan airport bookshop.
So not everyone will get theirbook in an airport bookshop.
And they're all different.
Suppliers anyway.
So, um, so that was a prettyhuge win for me.
I would say readers contactingme is also a huge win and the
beautiful writing community.

(01:14:15):
I mean, I don't, I don't knowmuch of the writing community
outside of Melbourne, Victoria.
I know some in New South Walesand they're lovely.
I haven't met.
A writer I didn't like, they'reall very, to me, just welcoming
and you know, they commiserateand they understand how it works
and they celebrate each other'swins and it's just not like

(01:14:37):
anything I've known.
I don't know.
We're just, it's, it's a verysupportive community, not just
writers, but thebookstagrammers, librarians and
yeah.

We are so lucky, I think, to have this
community and we are lucky tohave you as part of it.
Kylie.
Oh, thank you.
So thank you so much for joiningus on the book deal and I wish
all of those debuts the best ofluck.
Thank you.

Tina (01:14:59):
Thank you for listening to the book Deal podcast.
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Join the TPD family by becominga member of our Patreon
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