The Takeover: Holly Brunnbauer on securing a book deal, and savvy tips on how to befriend social media while connecting with people

Episode Transcript
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Natasha Rai (00:09):
This is the Book Deal podcast, monthly takeover
by your host, Natasha Rai.
I'll be bringing you even moredebut and season authors as they
talk about their path topublication.

Madeleine Cleary (00:26):
The book Deal podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters, which it's recorded
on and pays respect to theirelders past, present, and
emerging.

Holly Brunnbauer is a multi-award winning, emerging
fiction author who has earnednumerous accolades in writing
competitions across Australia,New Zealand, and the US.
She writes stories filled withheart, humor and hijinks.
Her signature style includes astrong commercial voice, quirky
cast, and putting the comm inromcom.

(01:00):
Holly first caught the writingbug via blogging and later
transitioned into copywriting.
She's now a sought after virtualassistant for published and
aspiring authors based in ruralVictoria.
She spends her time with herhusband, two rambunctious boys,
and a cheeky pug planning andbuilding their off-grid country
home.
The outdoors is her happy place.

(01:22):
Holly's debut novel, What Did IMiss?
Is published by Harper Collins.
This fresh and feisty romanticcomedy explores what happens
when you meet someone specialbefore truly knowing yourself.
Hi, Holly Brunnbauer.
Welcome to the Book DealPodcast.

Holly Brunnbauer (01:43):
Thank you so much for having me, Natasha.

It's great to have you.
How are you today?

I am feeling really good, actually.
I'm feeling nervous, excited.

Mm.
And so just for our listeners sothat they are aware in terms of
timing, we're having thisconversation literally a month
to the day that your debut novelWhat Did I Miss?
will be out.

Yes, that's correct.
It's coming out on the 2nd ofJuly.

That's right.
So I really wanna talk to you ina moment about how you're doing
with that, but before we get tothat, I think it will be really
great, um, if you could give usyour elevator pitch.

Fantastic.
Okay.
So What Did I Miss?
is a fresh and feisty rom-comabout Mikayla, who is newly
divorced and almost 30 and readyto tick off her list all the
things she missed out on in hertwenties, starting with a one
night stand.
So she bangs a random guy fromthe bar.

(02:40):
And as fate would have it, notso random, he reappears in her
life and suddenly she's fightingfeelings she didn't sign up for.
And even if she wanted to datehim, which she doesn't, she
can't because her auntie isbribing her to stay single until
her birthday in order to inheritsomething that she doesn't

(03:00):
necessarily want, but herex-husband desperately does.
And there is nothing Mikaylawould love more than to get back
at him for the shitty thing hedid that ended their marriage.
So the question is, can Mikaylastay single until her 30th
birthday and tick off all theexperiences she thought she
missed out on?

(03:21):
Or will she start a new decadewith more regrets?

Oh, love it.
What a great pitch.
Now I have to admit, um, yousent me, um.
The, uh, novel, the manuscript,the novel.
And I'd hoped, I'd hoped to readsome of it before we had our
chat today, but it was so goodthat I read the entire thing.

Oh, wow.
Thank you.

Um, I found myself like literally like waiting in
between like work to go back toit to read.
Now, having said all that, I'lljust caveat it, that my
knowledge of romcoms comesprimarily from eighties and
nineties Nora Ephron movies.
I'm not, um, a natural reader ofromcoms.
Not because I don't like them,just because, yeah, I don't
know.
I think I'm, I tend to watchthem.

(04:01):
So I was really interested in acouple of things that really
struck me in your novel, whichis about the trope that I've
been used to or the kind ofusual storyline revolves around
in a, in heterosexual romancesabout the woman wanting to be
with this man and the man reallywithholding.
And I noticed that that wasneatly flipped in, in, What Did

(04:24):
I Miss?
Yeah, I'm just curious aboutthat.

Yeah.
Uh.
I would love to say, you know,it was really intentional, but
it, I guess in a way it isbecause, you know, it's very
sexy also for a, for, for it tobe flipped for the man to fall
first.

Oh yeah.
I'm into that.

Um, but the other thing I guess was about
Mikayla in general, a lot ofromcoms, uh, you would normally
make the protagonist someonewho's really likable and someone
you'd wanna be best friendswith.
And Mikayla's not that,

yeah, she's prickly, so,

oh, she's prickly, she's blunt, she's
sarcastic.
She will cut you off in asecond.
And it, like, as a writer, it'sjust really fun to create
characters that go against thegrain.
Um, especially in a romance aswell.
You know, I wanted to create acharacter that was strong, but
also needed to learn how to bevulnerable and, and also to

(05:21):
learn that that wasn't aweakness for her.
So there were a few, you know,they say like, you should always
flip the cliches on their head.
There's also, for an an example,there's an ex-mother-in-law
usually, you know, the ex-wifeand ex-mother-in-law would hate
each other.
Mm-hmm.
And they don't hate each other.
That's right.
They have a very endearingrelationship.
And same with perhaps, you know,the ex-husband and his new

(05:44):
girlfriend and Mikayla, normallythey would be pinned against
each other.
And I didn't wanna do thateither.
I was like, we can coexist aswomen without hating on each
other.
So it was really important to methat there wasn't, you know,
that I wasn't leaning into thosecliches and was creating
something that felt a bitfresher in the romcom space.

And, you know, you've totally nailed it.
And I'm really curious, was thatyour starting point?
Like, did your characters cometo you first or did you have an
idea for this story that youwanted to tell?

I had, I think maybe perhaps the premise came
to me first in that one of myfriends had married and divorced
her high school sweetheart andshe was in her thirties and
entering the adult dating worldfor the very first time.
And I found that to be just sucha fascinating situation.

(06:32):
Mm-hmm.
You know, the last time shedated, she'd been 16 now.
Yes, she was older, had morelife experience, but she also
didn't have that sort offoundational experience of where
we all have to, you know,perhaps kiss a few frogs, uh,
and things like that.
And I just sort of sat there andthought, wow, what a unique
situation.
I wonder what I would do if Iwas in that position.

(06:55):
And I guess.
Being me and perhaps watchingtoo much Bridgerton.
At the time I was like, I'dprobably wanna go out and have a
one night stand, you know, justto see what it's like.
And so the first chapter pouredout of me.
I just sat there and it justvomited onto the page basically.
And I was like, Ooh.
But Mikayla's voice came reallystrong.

(07:15):
She's nothing like my friend.
I have to just caveat that.
Um, my friend is lovely and verywarm and friendly, but Mikayla
just had this bityness and Ijust was so drawn to her, um,
being so unhinged sometimes.
Mm.
I felt like she kind of justwrote herself and I was going
along for the ride, but then Ijust.
The idea of, so there is a listin this story.

(07:37):
So she actually comes up withthis list and no regrets list.
And you know, I thought aftershe had that experience, I was
like, well, what other thingswould she want to try?
And I messaged my friends, like,I just dropped off into the
group chat, you know, if youfound yourself suddenly single,
what new encounters would youwanna try?
And they just came back with thefunniest answers and a lot of

(08:01):
them were just filthy.
And I was like, oh, let me graba pen.
And I just wrote them all downand thought, how can I make this
into a story?
Uh, and you know, so I have toreally thank my, my horny
friends for that.
I appreciated that.
But not all of them end upbeing, you know, yeah.
Sexually related activities.
Mm-hmm.
They do.
It does broaden out.

(08:22):
But it was just a really funplace to start.
And it was interesting to mebecause the group chat was going
off.
I could see it was something.
That was a conversation starter.
And I thought, yeah, there'ssomething here.
I'm gonna lean into this.
Yeah.
So that's how it really gotstarted.

Yeah, I love that.
And you know, what you say aboutMikayla, she is a very strong
character in that she feels sofully formed.
And I have to say, as a reader,I didn't dislike her at all.
I could actually

Oh, thank you.

See the vulnerability.
And she's got a lot of insight,doesn't she?
'cause she does.
Um, without giving away toomuch, she does say a few times
in, in, in the story that she'srealized she comes from a family
where they don't really talkabout feelings or they talk
about, you know, big things.
Yeah.
And, and that really camethrough and what I really

(09:11):
delighted in was that I couldsee these vulnerabilities in her
and I was really glad that thisman that she's attracted to
seemed to do the same.
Yes.
Which I loved.
Yeah.
What was that like to write,like, his name's Beau, am I
pronouncing that correctly?

Yes.
Beau that's correct.
Mr.
So Mikayla.
Yes, exactly.
Mr.
Shepherd.

Actually, I do wanna talk to you about the sex
in a moment.

Okay.
Let's just get to the goodstuff.

Oh, oh God.
Yeah.
Um, so Beau Shepherd, he, howwas he to write for you?
Because Mikayla and, and he alsofeels very fully formed to me,
but obviously quite different tohow Mikayla is portrayed on the
page.

Yeah, so they are quite opposite.
And sometimes, you know, youhave someone you would pair them
with, someone who does challengethat person.
And that's Beau's sort of rolethat he's playing.
Whether he was a love interestor not, he's constantly
challenging her to look at herbehavior and to see, to really
see, you know, can she continuethese habits?

(10:14):
Are they actually serving her inthe way that she thinks they
are?
Uh, with him, I wanted to put ina green flag, man.
Yes.
I wanted someone who, so is thatYeah.
And hot.
Yeah.
And of course hot, like theyjust gonna be hot, obviously.
Yeah.
But I just wanted someone whohad really firm boundaries and

(10:34):
someone who could have a healthyconversation.
And address conflict head on,because I find, you know, they,
they often in books like this,they, you know, they, they don't
communicate and stuff like that.

And those misunderstandings are really,
uh, I find sometimes just a bitsilly.
Like if someone just said onething, it would just all be
fine.
Yeah.
Yeah.

And, and Mikayla is very quick to always
think the worst of people.
So she does that quite oftenwith him because she is just,
you know, viewing everythingthrough sort of, she says like a
broken glass, basically.
Yeah.
But he's very quick to pull her,you know, to, he is just, yeah.
To pull her up on everything andcall it out as well, call out

(11:14):
her behavior.
And I don't know what it was,but I just found that so hot.
Like it was like, okay, this isa good guy.
And you know, like.
Sometimes I think that romancenovels are, are blueprints for
men of how we wanna be treated.
Like these are the men that we,you know, our book boyfriends we
call them, um, but they'rereally just like, guys, it's not

(11:37):
that hard.
Like, just read the novels.
Yeah.
This is what we want.
We want someone who will, youknow, have a conversation with
us about our behavior and ourfeelings and, and say, well,
what's going on there?
Let's actually have a chat aboutthis.
Let's unpack this.
Yeah.
So I really love that.
But I do a lot of characterdevelopment before I start my
story.

(11:57):
I always do start like I'll, youknow, if the premise comes to
me, all the title comes to me,whatever it is, I spend a month
getting to know my charactersbefore I start my story.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's why they feel So whenyou say, yeah.
So I'm curious about that.
So when you say you spend amonth getting to know your
characters.

What kinds of exercises or, or what are you
doing to get into their kind ofheads?

Yeah.
Well, the first thing for me,I'm just a real visual person.
Mm-hmm.
So I kind of create,

I can tell, yeah.

A mood board of their life, basically.
Like I need to know, like I willfind a picture of the, the
character that matches thecharacter in my head.
I will also create theirwardrobe and, but every piece
that I pick, there has to be areason.
So, for example, with Mikayla,for her bathers, she wears a
practical one piece and it'sblack.

(12:47):
And that's because she's anathlete and when she's going
into the pool, she's not thereparading and trying to show off
her hot little bod.
She's there to get work done andshe wants to beat Agnes in that
race.
So when I pick an item, likeeverything tells a story, but it
tells me something about thecharacter.
So that's just a little exercisethat I like to do.
I also think about all thethings that they like and all

(13:10):
the things they dislike in theirlife as well.
Um.
And then I also think aboutthree things in their past that
have happened to them thatcontribute to them being the
character that the reader meetsat the start.
So even if that doesn't make itinto the book, I need to know
what three things happen tothem.

(13:30):
Yeah.
So that I can write them in away that feels like, yeah, this
person has lived a life.
They were someone before youactually opened this book and
started at Chapter one.

Wow.
Okay.
All the writers out there,character development tips,
write them down.
Um, so I'm really curious aboutthe, uh, the sex scenes.
Okay.
Because I get asked a lot aboutthe sex in my book, so I was, I
always now like to read with aneye on that.
If, if there is a romanceelement, which obviously yours

(14:01):
is a romance book, how was thatfor you?
How, how do you approach writingsex?

Yeah, so I, I don't find it embarrassing or
cringe or any different towriting an action scene, for
example, if anything, I probablyfind the crying scenes and the
vulnerable scenes to be reallyhard.
The sex scenes for me, I alwayshave to ask myself, uh, why is
this in here?
What is it actually showingabout the character?

(14:26):
And there are multiple, I callthem intimate scenes because to
me it's not just like I'm notthere to titillate the reader.
If it does, you are welcome i'state it.
Okay, fantastic.
Um, but you know, if you arenot, that's okay.
So, you know, for example, withthe very first time we actually
see them on the page intimatecompared to the last time, the

(14:48):
first time is very rough andquick and dirty and she's really
trying to numb herself.
So that's what it's trying toportray.
So I'm using, you know, verbsand trying to use the setting
and the mood to create, youknow, that sort of feeling
compared to the last time whenwe see her, when she's gone
through so much and changed somuch as a character, it's very

(15:10):
slow and sensual and freeing.
And that is really to highlightone, how her connection with
Beau changes.
It goes from a very physical toa very emotional relationship,
but also how she is feelingabout herself.
So I was really intentional inthose scenes to show those

(15:32):
things evolving over time andyou just gotta keep practicing
at it when it comes to that sortof thing.
I think there has to be a reallystrong connection there in order
for sex scenes to, to feelreally good when you're reading
them.
Mm-hmm.
And you do have to, I guess,have a crush on at least one of
the people in, in the story inorder to be like, Ooh, yeah, I

(15:53):
enjoyed this.

I enjoyed them a lot.

Oh, thank you.

And then swinging kind of to something.
That was quite different to thesex.
So I, I'm not going to give anyspoilers, but there are some
quite, uh, what's the rightword?
Serious themes, I suppose, thatyou do write about in terms of
something that's happened toMikayla or in her past, recent
past.

(16:19):
And that is obviously quite adifferent mood and tone to, you
know, the, the budding romanceor the, the attraction she has
for Beau.
And what really struck me as areader was that there is a
beautiful way that you've doneit in that you kind of know
something is coming, but itdoesn't, I don't know, it

(16:41):
doesn't take away from thisperson and it doesn't overwhelm
the reader.
It doesn't, it didn't overwhelmme.
But at the same time it was sucha beautiful, nuanced way of, for
her to kind of face this thing.

Hmm.

How is that for you to write?

It was difficult.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I had to really dig deep,but I felt it was important that
if I was going to address atopic like that, and I'm sorry
for everyone who, you know, youhaven't read the book,

that's okay.

We're gonna, you know, skirt around the
spoiler.

This, this will make sense once they read it and
come back.

Yeah, yeah.
Um, I felt that if I was goingto address that topic, because
it's not often brought up inromcoms.

No, it is not.

No it's not.
So I was like, it's not gonna besomething that I'm just going to
brush over and pretend it's notimportant.
I was going to really go thereand I know I've had people, uh,
feedback from people that werelike.
I was like, you know, I wasexpecting your book to be funny,
which it is, but I was notexpecting it to be deep.
And I was like, I love thatfeedback.
Like I'm actually happy withthat feedback that people felt

(17:42):
that it was addressedappropriately.
And yeah, like I said, it w itwas something, it is
uncomfortable for me because I,I'm sure with you, you know,
you, your characters feel realto you and it's like, I'm making
this horrible thing happen tothis

Yes, exactly.

This person that I care about.
Yeah.
And I just, you know, I feltlike it, it, I needed to dig
deep with it, but I, I felt likeit was also important for
Mikayla's character arc in that,you know, you needed to see, she
wasn't as tough as you thoughtshe was.
Mm-hmm.
You know, there was more to herand I felt like it just gave her

(18:19):
another layer, um, that thereader could, you know, perhaps
relate to

For sure.
And it's about, you know, as yousaid, when you do your work
around the charactersbackstories and developing them.
We also need to understand thather reaction is appropriate
considering what she'sexperienced.
It is completely her fears, her,you know, her experiences have
directly contributed to howshe's in the world right now.

Yeah, absolutely.
And I also, you know, giving aperspective on what is, you
know, the angry woman, uh, whichis something,

sorry, I'm rolling my eyes.
Eyes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because it's one of those thingswhere I, there were times where
I was, you know, worried that itwouldn't get published or
perhaps because she was so angryor that I would perhaps have an
editor that would tell me topull back on that.
And I didn't.
And I was so happy that mypublisher and my editor, they
never once said anything aboutthat.

(19:19):
Like they really, you know, justaccepted like, yeah, we are
really going there with her.
Um, and there's going to be,there will be like, I know there
will be people who won't likethat about her, but I was like,
feminine rage is just somethingI really wanted address.
Maybe it's my rage and I'veprojected it onto the page, but
not at all.
I mean, even if it is like it's,it's valuable and we need to

(19:40):
talk about it.

You know, just on that point, I was at Words in
the Waves yesterday, which is afestival in the Central Coast,
new South Wales.
And literally I was on a panelwith Jesse Tu, and Nikki
Gemmell, and they talked aboutrage and they talked about
female rage specifically.
Yes.
And.
You know, portraying it in allits forms through different
stories.

(20:01):
And you know, my character,Arch, in my book is very angry
and I've had people say, Inearly didn't finish it, or I
nearly couldn't get into it'cause of her anger.
And I'm like, so what?
I just, I find that reallyinteresting.
Yeah.
As a response.

Are we not allowed to be angry?
I, we not allowed to be pissedoff, but the difference too is
what we do with that anger.
I mean, we are not going aroundpunching walls or, you know,
murdering people when we areangry.
So I think it's a great topic toexplore.
And me too, you know, I washappy to in

No, and I'm really glad you did because as you
said, you don't often see thatin that, um, genre.
And I, for one, as a reader justreally, really enjoyed that.
Um, because also to me it feltso real and it also felt obvious
that.
Not that you need a reason tobe, well, you sort of need a
reason to be angry, but thatkind of internalized rage, which

(20:54):
is what we're talking abouthere, right?
Like yes.
When the rage is turned inward.
Um, especially women, we do thata lot.

Yes.

Yes.
Yeah.
Anyway, but let's not get intothat.
That's for another podcast.
But if we zoom out now a bitfrom your writing practice,
which I do wanna ask about in abit, what was your publication
journey like?
So yeah, tell me about that.

Okay, so mine really starts with getting an
agent first.
So I signed up for the agent andeditor assessments at the CYA
conference, and that is, so,it's not a pitching opportunity,
it's where you submit your firstchapter, your synopsis, and your
bio.
To an agent or an editor thatyou've booked in with, they see

(21:39):
that before they meet you, andthen you've got 15 minutes with
them where they give youfeedback on that.
And I booked in with my dreamagent and I'd been writing her
name in my journal for a yearand I thought, oh wow, this will
be a great opportunity to meether.
So that she could also put faceto the name, so when I do submit
to her later, perhaps she'llremember me.

(22:01):
Mm-hmm.
There'll be some familiaritythere, but I also,

and can I just ask a quick question, holly?
Yeah.
At that point, how much of yourmanuscript had you written?

So I'd written the first draft.

Oh, okay.
Got it.

But this only happens once a year in July, so
I didn't wanna miss theopportunity.
Yeah.
And I, I also just wanted to askher too, like, did she feel it
had like commercial appeal?
Were people ask like, werepublishers interested in this
thing?
And also, did she think thefirst chapter was hooky enough?
Like would it, would it compelher to keep reading?
I wanted her professionalopinion.

Mm-hmm.
And those are really, reallygood questions.

Yeah.
And so when we met, I kind ofthought, look, so you can't
record the session.
You have to write down all theirfeedback.
And I sort of like, pen and handready?
Tell me what's wrong with it.
I'll fix it.
You know, very eager.
And then she sort of like said afew little things, but then she
just sort of told me how muchshe really enjoyed it.
Oh.
And she was asking me lots ofquestions and I was a bit like,
what's going on?
Why isn't she telling me all thethings that are wrong?

(22:56):
And I was like shaking.
Like, I'd, I'd been, I was sonervous.
I was so sick.
And then she said, I don'tusually, um, represent romance
authors.
And my heart just dropped.
'cause I was like, what?
Like I knew she representedpeople who wrote adult fiction
and children's fiction and stufflike that.
But I'd never really looked atthe genre.

(23:16):
And I was like, oh my God.
Like what have I done?
I've invested all this time intoher being my agent.
And then she goes, but this isreally smart and I'd love to see
the rest.
And I was like.
Okay.
And then we got spit out of themeeting.
'cause it's a virtual, you go tothis virtual waiting room.
So I didn't have time to tellher that it was a first draft

(23:39):
because she hadn't asked.
Ah, yes.
So then I sat there all weekendgoing back and forth and I was
saying to my husband, what do Ido?
What do I do?
And he goes, just send it toher.
And then I was like, no, I'm notgonna do that.
I'm a Virgo.
Like I need it to be perfect.
I don't wanna blow my shot and Ialso don't wanna waste her time.
So I emailed her to say, Hey,like I really appreciate that

(24:00):
you've requested the full, I'mso excited.
Can I please send this to youwhen I've worked on it a bit
more?
I want to present my best work.
And she was like, absolutely,that's totally fine.
I was like, okay.
Right.
Fantastic.
So I got working on it.
In the meantime, I gotshortlisted for publishable with
the Queensland Writers Center.
Yeah.

(24:20):
Which was so exciting and I'dfinished it, but.
In their terms and conditions,you are not allowed to send your
manuscript to agents orpublishers while you do the
program.
Um, so it's embargoed and I waslike, oh damn.
So I emailed her and said, Hey,great news.
I got shortlisted for thisaward, which I was rapt about
because again, I was like, it'sa romcom.

(24:42):
It's against all these othergenres.
I didn't think it would getpicked, like when I got long
listed, I, I, like, I had thewind knocked out of me'cause
they call you and, oh, best callI've ever had in my life.
But I was like, like I honestlywas panting on the phone and I I
had to email them afterwards toapologize'cause I was just like

(25:02):
so excited.
But yeah, so I told her andshe's like, that's so great.
And I was like, but I can't sendit to you until I finished this
program.
Which I really wanted to do theprogram.
I didn't wanna withdraw from it'cause you got a mentor and um,
some other really great perkswith it.
And so I did the program andthen as soon as it was finished,
I emailed it to her and it wasDecember.

(25:24):
And I thought, this is the worsttime of year to send an agent a
manuscript.
Like literally the end of theyear.
Yes.
And I thought, oh God, I'm nevergonna hear from her.
And then she emailed back andsaid, I'll get it back to you in
January.
And I was like, nah, it's, ifyou're gonna read it by then,
like whatever.
And so in January I was sittingthere, you know, checking my
emails, checking my emails.

(25:44):
She was kind enough to email meto say like, mid Jan.
And I like, my heart stopped,she said, just letting you know,
I've had some of my currentclients send their manuscripts
in like their second and thirdone, so I need to read those
first before yours, just lettingyou know.
And I was like, that's reallynice.
Like, I don't know many agentsthat would do that.
So I was like, you know, greenflag automatically, like this is

(26:05):
a professional and sheunderstands the anxiety of the
person waiting on the otherside.
And then I sort of started topanic.
And I thought, oh my God.
Like maybe she started to readit and then put it down and you
know, then she started with theother ones, like maybe she's
just lying.
And then not that she would, butyou know, you, you do, you, you

Of course you just doubt yourself and second guess
yourself.
Yeah, of course.

Absolutely.
So I thought I'll put together aspreadsheet of all the agents
I'm going to contact, you know,throughout the year I was gonna
do a slow rollout, that's whatthey call it, so that if you get
feedback, you have time tochange your manuscript before
you send it out to someone else.
Okay.
And so I started puttingtogether that spreadsheet and I
thought I'll just send it to thenext one on the list.
And I sent it and I got an emaila few hours later saying, send

(26:48):
me the full.
And I was like, oh my God.
So I was like, okay, that'sreally exciting.
But then a week later inJanuary, even though I wasn't
expecting it, the email camethrough from the first agent I.
And I thought, oh my God, thisis it.
This is my first rejection I'mgoing to.
So I didn't even look at it.

(27:08):
I just put my phone down.
I went and made a cup of tea.
I grabbed,

Oh God, I can't believe I didn't look at it.
I would've like, my God.
Okay.

I sat down at my desk with my tissues ready to
have my first, you know,breakdown.
And then I opened it and it waslike, you know, I'm not
officially back at work, butI've read it.
I finished it.
I loved it.
Um, I'd love to represent you,you know, all this stuff.
Oh, that's your dream agent.
My dream agent.
And I was like, bawling my eyesout.

(27:35):
And I,

You did need the tissues.

I did need the tissues.
I was like, they nothing there.
And it was just amazing.
And I was like, I, I can'tbelieve this is happening.
I had to read the email so manytimes.
What a moment.
Home.
I was like, can you read this?
Does this say what I think itsays?
He's like, yes, it does.
And I was like, um, so that wasamazing.
That was so good.
And then.
When you have an agent, thenyou've gotta put, they've gotta

(27:57):
put together a pitch package.
And so she said to me, sheactually does give editorial
feedback if, if required, butshe said, this is ready to go,
we're gonna send it out.
And I was like, okay.
And then I signed with her andliterally a few days later it
was out, you know, she wassending it to the big five and I
was like, I'm not ready forthis.
And she's like, just hang inthere, it's fine.

(28:19):
Um, because you're not CC'd intothose emails.
That's fine.
Yes.
Fantastic.
Yes.
Um, thank goodness.
But she said, you know, we'll,uh, you know, in about four to
six weeks I'll start to nudge ifwe dont hear anything and we'll
see how it goes.
And you just, you think like,waiting for the agent is bad,
waiting for the publishers is 10times worse.

(28:41):
Because I didn't tell anyone Ihad a publisher.
I was like, I'm not announcingthis.
I mean, that I had a agent,agent.
Agent, yeah.
Because I was like, well, whatif.
The publishers say no.
Like there's not many publishersin Australia.
It's very likely.
That's right, yes.
Yeah.
So I was keeping this all tomyself besides my husband.
Oh.
Um, and spiraling the whole timeI felt sick.

(29:05):
And then one day I got an emailfrom her and it was like from
Harper Collins and which was mydream publisher, and I was like.
Oh my gosh.
And it said, you know, I lovethis.
And she said about, she goes, Ilove that Mikayla has a proper
arc that's outside of theromance.
It really sets itself, you know,apart from other ones.

(29:26):
And I was like, okay, that'sgreat.
And she said, oh, you know, isHolly available for a meeting?
I'd like to take it toacquisitions.
And I was like, is Hollyavailable?
Ah, let me play my schedule.
Hyper Collins available.
And then, you know, my agent'slike, it's fine.
Like, um, we'll have themeeting.
They're really, she said, youknow, they're gonna tr probably
talk about the direction theywant the book in to go in, but

(29:47):
they're really kind of sussingyou out as well, so just act
normal.
I was like, uh, I don't think Ican.
But it is the most amazingmeeting you've ever had in your
life.
Having a publisher sit there andtalk to you about your book for
like 45 minutes and just tellyou everything that they love
about it and also have thisvision of where it could go even

(30:08):
further.
So she had ideas about thingsand.
They were all things that I waslike, yes, I'm creatively
excited'cause I went to thatmeeting going okay.
What if she wants to changethis?
What if she wants to changethat?
Da da da dah.
And I was like, the only thing,which is the spoiler thing that
we talk about, I was like, ifthey wanna change that, if they
wanted to pull that out, no, I,I think I'd actually like have

(30:30):
enough integrity to not pullthat particular thing out of the
book.

Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

Um, and thank goodness you didn't say that.
Yeah.

Sam Guthrie (30:42):
Hi, this is Sam Guthrie.
I'm the author of The Peak,which is being released on the
2nd of July by Harper Collins,and it's such a privilege to be
on the podcast to tell you a bitabout my novel.
The Peak is an internationalthriller.
It's set in Hong Kong, Shanghai,Beijing, and Canberra.
And at its heart, it's about alove triangle that takes place.
During the 1997 handover of HongKong, from the UK to the

(31:05):
People's Republic of China, twoyoung men, Sebastian and
Charlie, traveled to Hong Kongwhere they fall in love with a
young Chinese woman, Chloe.
Their love will test Sebastianand Charlie's friendship and
loyalty, and ultimately resultsin a betrayal that haunts all
three of them for the rest oftheir lives.
But the book begins some 30years after that.
Sebastian is now a senator.
Charlie's his chief of staff.

(31:26):
Sebastian receives a mysteriousthree word message from Chloe's
father, and then commits anunspeakable act in Parliament
House.
In trying to make sense sense ofhis friend's actions, Charlie
now must return through hismemories of what happened during
their time together in HongKong, discovering the horrendous
truth of how a love affair canlead to the end of the world.
This is a book that I wasinspired to write based on my 25

(31:48):
years of working in globalaffairs, including as a diplomat
in Hong Kong at the Hong KongConsulate.
Uh, it's for people who lovepolitical thrillers like John
LeCarre and Robert Harris, andI'm so glad to have had the
opportunity to tell you aboutit.
I really hope you get a chanceto read it and enjoy it.
Thanks.

It is so important, and I think as debut writers, we
sometimes forget that it is atwo-way relationship and that
you are allowed to have yourideas of what is so important to
you and your story and yourcharacters, right?
Because I think for a lot ofdebut writers, when you get this
offer of publication, you'rejust like, yep, no matter what.

(32:27):
But actually it does.
It does actually do you creditand your story credit to go,
hang on, what are mynon-negotiables?

Yes.
I think that is importantbecause there is a power
imbalance there.
Yes.
And you do feel this desperationof wanting to get published and
you're like, I'll just dowhatever.
But at the end of the day, youhave to stand by that book.
Yes.
You are going to have to faceyour readers.
And really, they're the peoplethat you have to impress, not
the publishers.
So you know, are you willing towalk away and stand by your

(32:57):
story?
And so I had to really askmyself that question.
Mm-hmm.
Luckily I didn't have to Yes,exactly.
Put in position to do that.
Exactly, yes.
So we had that great meeting andmy agent was there, which is
really great to have because Iwas just all excited about
talking about the book, and shewas asking the practical
questions, when is this going toacquisitions, blah blah, blah.
You know, just things that Iwould've been too scared to ask

(33:18):
or too caught up in the momentto ask.
Mm mm You need someone in yourcorner to ask those questions.
Then we go away and then a weeklater, so they have their
acquisitions every Tuesday andmy.
Agent emails me with a headingthat's like, don't panic, or
something like that in capitals.
And I was like, what?
Don't send me an email likethat.

(33:40):
And I automatically panicked.
And she just says they didn'thave time to get the pitch to
the group because she was out ofthe office for a few days.
Um, it'll go to the nextmeeting.
And I was like, oh my God, Ican't wait.
Like my stomach was knots.
I couldn't do anything else.
Finally, we get to Tuesday, Ihear nothing.
And I was like, well, that's abad sign because surely they

(34:00):
skip outta that meeting and callyou immediately.
No, and then we get to theWednesday and I still, I thought
nothing overnight.
What's happening?
I'm too scared to contact myagent.
And then I get a text from herand it says, are you available
to chat?
Like, I'll give you a call.
And I was like, she never calls.
She never calls.
It's bad news.
It's obviously bad news.

(34:21):
Why else?
She wants to break the news tome.
And I was like, I'd prefer anemail to be honest, so I can
just cry in peace.
And then I say, now I think Iliterally just wrote now.
And she took three minutes tocall me.
And in those three minutes Icompletely unraveled.
I was walking around doing loopsin my lounge room.
I was crying, I was shaking.

(34:42):
I was like, oh my God.
Like they don't want it.
They think it's shit.
I'm shit.
It's never gonna be published.
This is my last chance.
Or like, you know, justcompletely spiraling, phone
rings.
I'm like, pull yourselftogether, woman.
Do not cry in front of youragent.
And so I'm sort of likeanswering.
I'm like, hello?
And she goes, hi Holly.

(35:03):
And I think, oh, that's so mean.
Why is she so perky when she'sabout to crush my soul?
And then she goes,congratulations.
And I was like, I just heardnothing after that.
Like we were on the phone for 40minutes and I completely
blanked.
I was like, oh my God, that's soamazing.
And so I get off the phone withher.

(35:24):
20 minutes later I get anothercall saying I'd been shortlisted
for another award.

Oh my God, Holly.

The Hawkeye manuscript, um, developmental
prize, which was amazing.
Um, and then the next day I getanother call saying I'd been
shortlisted for Adaptable, whichis where, go to Brisbane and
pitch your manuscript.
Which was at that time anunpublished manuscript, uh, to

(35:52):
screen professionals.
And this all happened within 24hours and all phone calls, which
was just a glut of good news.
It was, but you know, the weirdthing was Natasha, so one, I
couldn't tell anyone, couldn'ttell anyone about Shortlists,
couldn't tell'em about the bookDeal.
Two, you know, you would thinklike you would go out to dinner

(36:12):
or you'd buy some, you know,real expensive champagne or
something like that.
I had a three hour nap the nextday.
I just sat there at my desk.
I, my, my eyes were so heavy Icouldn't do any work, and I
thought I just lay down for asecond and three hours later I
woke up.
I was drained and exhausted andjust like all the adrenaline had
run out of my body for sure.

(36:34):
Sure, yeah.
Like I needed to reboot orsomething.
It was such a weird feelingbecause I wasn't expecting that.
I was expecting that, oh wow,let's celebrate, let's go out to
dinner and stuff.
And I was like, I'm just tired.
I'm so not what I thought Iwould feel in that moment.

Yeah.
So, so what did you have to dowith those two competitions?

So one of them I had to withdraw from because
you, you couldn't have a bookdeal if like, I could be
shortlisted, which was great,but you couldn't have a, a book
deal in place.
Okay.
Yeah.
So I withdrew from that one andthe other one adaptable, I could
still be in it because you couldbe a published or unpublished
manuscript, they accept.
Oh, right, okay.
Which was so good.
And I also then applied for aregional arts grant and they

(37:18):
funded my trip to Brisbane.

Amazing.

And so if anyone lives regionally, or even
if you don't, your council mighthave things like that for
professional development.
And I thought, I mean, even if Ihad to sell pictures of my feet
to get there, I was going to getthere, Natasha.
So I just, yeah.
But then I saw that they hadthis grant and it's like a 50
page long document.

(37:43):
I thought, surely people give upafter page 20, but I'm gonna
finish this.
And then I got the grant.
So I was like, I'm going toBrizy.

And how was that experience, the adaptable, um,
pitching?

It was amazing.
It was a really greatexperience.
Like nothing's come of it.
My, you know, there's noadaptation.
I'll just give full, you know,disclosure of that.
But I didn't care.
Like it was the first time I gotto hang out with published
authors and I was going to beone.
Yes.
'cause and there were peoplethat I admired and stuff and I,
you know, I hadn't told anyoneat that stage that I was going

(38:16):
to be published, but I was like,guess what guys?
I've got a book deal.
And so that felt really great.
And they sort of, you know, itwas almost like they embraced me
and they brought me in and theyjust told me all the things that
I was about to face.
And I really loved that.
Like, I thought that was reallynice.
It was almost like an initiationtype thing.
Uh, just welcoming me sort of tothe side of publishing.

(38:37):
And now I was gonna see the nextphase.
Um.
The pitching was great.
Like you do your first one andthen by the time you get to your
fifth, like you're just rattlingit off and the nerves are gone.
So Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So just what an amazing few days of complete
recognition and acknowledgementand just that kind of evidence
that your work was just suchhigh quality.
I mean, you've got a book deal,which is the ultimate goal,
right?

Yeah, I know.
But it is weird when you do geta book deal, you think you will
feel validated.
And what I felt though a lot ofthe time was scared.
I constantly, like even once Ihad my book deal and I wasn't
allowed to tell anyone, um, Ithought I'll announce that I
have an agent because at leastyou know I do have a book deal,

(39:25):
so that's fine.
And I put together mynewsletter, I put together my
social media announcement, andthen I panicked and I emailed my
agent and said, can they pullback the book deal?
Like, could that happen?
And she's like, well, you know,it can always, they can always
pull back.
Like there's things in there fordifferent reasons, but Holly,
like, it's fine.
It's not gonna, you know, she,she always talks me off a ledge.

(39:47):
I think she, she's used to menow and still.
I was like, I'm not hitting sendon that newsletter.
I.
And I did not tell anyone untilI announced the book deal.
'cause I was in this constantworry that it was going to be
taken away.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So now it felt like this thingthat I wanted so bad, but it
also felt like this thing thatcould just disappear at any
moment.
And I was constantly oneggshells, worried that I would

(40:08):
put a step wrong.
And that's what I'm talkingagain about that power imbalance
that you do constantly feelscared, especially at the start.
Now I'm fine to email mypublisher, we have a great old
chat, but at the start it wouldtake me an hour to like even
just write back a sentence toher because I would overthink
everything like, well how am Iwording this and how is it
coming across?
And what if she doesn't like meand what if she says, oh no, we

(40:30):
found a better romcom.
You know?
I was just constantly havingthose thoughts.

Yeah.
God, it's such a nerve wrackingtime.
Mm-hmm.
So then in terms of timing foryou, Holly, what are we talking
like from when you wrote thatfirst draft to pitching to your
agent to getting that contractsigned?

Yeah, so I, um.
So I took a month to plan mystory.
I did three months to do myfirst draft.

God, that's fast.

I'm a fast first, like first draft writer.
Um, then I took a month off.
But also as I was writing thatfirst draft, I have beta readers
reading it hot, hot off thepress.
Oh,

okay.
Yeah.
So

I get like real time feedback as well,
which really helps, especiallyif I ask a question like, what
do you think will happen next?
And then they'll say somethingand I'll go, I'm not gonna do
that.
I'm gonna change it.
Actually, I'm gonna do somethingthey don't expect.
So I love that feedback.
And then, so I take a month off.
Then I did my second draft, andthat took me three months.
And then I took that to threeother different beta readers.

(41:33):
'cause now I need fresh eyes.
Mm-hmm.
And then again, took a monthoff, and then I did the third
draft in a month.
Okay.
And then, and then at thatpoint, for me, I was like, I,
I'm ready to send it to theagent, but then I, you know, got
the award, so then I couldn't.
At that stage.
That's right.
So that's right.
So then I just wrote somethingelse.
I just wrote a new, like a newstory.

(41:55):
Okay.
I was waiting.

Yeah.
So, so about 18 months betweenwriting that first a kind of
idea that development and thenhaving to wait and then going
into Harper Collins.

Yeah.
So the, the waiting time Iguess.
Oh God, it's sort of hard.

I know it's, it's a while ago.
I'm just trying to get a senseof it just so people can
understand that.

Yeah.
Well the idea probably came tome, the first idea came to me in
2022.
And then I didn't start itthough, start planning it until
the end of that year.
Mm-hmm.
And then, so I wrote it in 2023.
That was the year I was workingon it.
Yes.
Uhhuh.
And then I got my agent at thestart of 2024.
Yep.
And then, you know, got theHarper Collins deal not long

(42:40):
after.
Yeah.
Um, and then.
Yeah.
And then it's not coming outuntil July, 2025.
So it's July and it, yeah, solong.
So I think it was March that Igot the, uh, the book deal.
Yeah.
And March, 2024, and now it'scoming out July, 2025.

It's so long.

And I remember when they said that, I was like,
oh my God, I will have writtenlike two books by then.
What are you doing to me?
Um, yeah, I just, I could notbelieve the length of time, and
it's such a long time.
I think it's almost sickeningthe length of time because
you're in this constant state ofstress, prolonged stress.

Mm-hmm.
Um, and in terms of structuraledits and all of that process,
how was that generally?
Was it okay?
Was it stressful?

Yeah.
I, I think the anticipation ofthem was more stressful than
when I got it.
When I got it, I was like, thisis my jam.
This is my element.
I cannot control anything elseexcept for the writing, and this
is what I'm here for.
Like, I, yes, you know, this ismy, you know, my, my zone of
genius.
I loved it.
And I actually loved workingwith an editor.
I learned so much.

(43:47):
Like, I think they forgetsometimes that we, uh, like,
well, maybe you are not, but I,I, I'm an amateur writer, like,
I don't have other experience,you know, there's no
professional experience therebesides writing courses, so I.
They'll say something and it's,it's almost like there's this
assumption that you know whatthey're talking about.
I'm like, I don't know what youmean.
Yeah,

yeah.
I was the same.
I was like, I dunno what thatmeans.
I had to Google, sometimes shewould be like, you write like
this, these types of sentences.
I'm like, cool.
Then I had to go Google it.

Yeah, yeah.
You don't know what, what allthe, the lingo is.
And so I really loved it.
Like, I felt like I waslearning, and I loved the copy
edit.
That was probably my favorite.
And even my agent, I kept sayingto her, I don't know what a copy
edit is.
Like, what is it?
Can you explain it?
And she goes, she sort ofexplained it to me and she goes,
don't worry, Holly, you actuallyreally love it.
And I was like, when I got it, Iknew what she meant because I
love rules and I, I'm veryfinicky and I love detail.

(44:35):
So when I saw, like, most peoplewould see like, oh, there's
8,000 changes you need toaddress.
I was like, okay, cool.
I had it done in like threedays.
Nice.
It was fine.
Like I just, yeah.
I loved it.

Awesome.
Um, I'm so pleased for you.
That sounds like, I know yousaid you were stressed, but it
just, it sounds like.
Such a dream, especially to haveall those other short listings
come through at the same time.
But one of the other things youmentioned was your, uh,
newsletter and, um, gettingsocial media ready.
Now you are a social media, likeI think you're a social media
queen because not only becauseyou're not, you are amazing at

(45:10):
it, but I am spectacularly badat it.
Um, and that's actually part ofyour day job as well.
Like you are a virtualassistant, um, and you work with
other writers.
In fact, you're gonna be workingwith me next month to help me
with my website.
Um, is that always beensomething you've been interested
in or how did you get into thatline of work?

Yeah, so when it comes to, I guess like
technology and things like that,I, like, I used to be a teacher
and then I moved into what usedto be called e-learning, which
is online course creation.
But there was no courses backthere to teach you how to do
that.
I, it was just a skill that Ihad picked up because I was
interested in technology and Ilove to.

(45:51):
Pick at things and learn things.
And I love to learn thingsmyself and tinker.
Um, and when I was doing that, Iactually became a blogger, but a
professional blogger in that Imonetized my, you know, my skill
and, but I had to teach myselfeverything.
I had to teach myself how to puttogether a website.
I had to teach myself how tobuild a community, how to send a
newsletter, how to do socialmedia.

(46:13):
And when I was doing all that, Iwould have all these requests
come in from people saying, Ireally like your voice.
Can you write something for me?
And I didn't know what they weretalking about.
I was like, what do you mean?
Just write how you speak?
Like what, what's his voicebusiness?
Yeah.
Um, but through blogging was howI acquired all of those skills.
So when I did switch over to,Hey guys, now I think I'm going

(46:36):
to write a book, uh,'cause youknow, if you wanna come along
with me, this is what'shappening.
I could just transfer thoseskills over.
So everything I've learned hasjust been me playing around with
things.
And then.
I realized like a lot of otherpeople don't know how to do
these things.
Like I, I often think like, ohyeah, you know how to use Canva,

(46:56):
you know how to use this.

Nope.

No.
Yeah.
And like, because I'm in itevery day and I'm doing those
stuff, but I actually love allof that side of things, of being
an author.
Like if I could do that all dayfor myself, I would, um.

Oh, that just sends chills down my spine.

Whereas I just, yeah.
And like you said, I am a veryvisual person, so I love that.
Yes.

Because I was gonna say that visual quality that you
mentioned earlier really comesthrough'cause it's, they're so
beautifully put together.
There is such a distinctivebrand as well.
That is so, you like, you, likeI recognize every time you post.
I'm like, that's Holly, withouteven looking at.
Who it is, like the account.
'cause it's so distinctive.

Yes.
And I have my green, my love ofgreen, which apparently is very
millennial of me.
They're coming after green now.
Natasha, how dare they?
Oh god.
Uh, yeah.
So I just acquired skills thatway and then I thought, you know
what?
I'm going to put together abusiness.
I actually, I heard anotherauthor on a podcast talk about
that she needed a virtual systembut she didn't know why she

(47:57):
needed one.
And I just went and had a likelittle stalky stalk of her
online and I was like, wow, youneed to update your website
doesn't even have your latestbook.
You need to update your bio.
You need to have, um, yourevents here.
You need to do this, need to dothat.
I just wrote this whole list forher.
'cause I just get like thatsometimes.
And I was like, here are all thethings you need.
And before I was about to sendit, I was like, hold on.
I know how to do all that stuff.

(48:19):
What if I tell her that I can dothat stuff for her?
And so that's how it started.
'cause she was like, okay, I'lljust hire you to do it.
Like,'cause I knew exactly whatshe needed.
Um.
And then from that I was like,okay, I'm a virtual assistant
now.
Does anyone else want work?
And then it's just filteredthrough from word of mouth,
which has been great.
You know people, yeah.

(48:39):
They can see that I know whatI'm doing.
Yes.
And that I can help otherpeople.
And so, which is like the bestform of marketing, isn't it?
Recommendations and word ofmouth.
Because then people are like,she's solid.
She knows what she's doing.
Look at this amazing thing shedid for me.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So that's how it sort of allcame about.
And I sort of have realizedwhat.
I wanna do, like, I don't wannado everything for everyone.

(49:01):
I think at the start I was kindof doing everything and now I
was like, no, I specialize inbranding websites, newsletters,
and I don't do people's socialmedia, but I do a strategy
session to teach them how to doit.
Okay.
Because I one, most authorscannot afford a social media VA
ongoing.
Only those who are perhapsfull-time bestsellers.

Yes, for sure.

Yeah.
Or they have a really great, youknow, day job that pays really
well and they can supplementthat, that's fine, but most
people can't.
And also, I just think it's areally handy skill to have.
So I like to actually sit thereand tailor a strategy to a
person at the point that they'reat.
Like if they're very new tosocial media.
I'm not gonna say, you have todo this reel and you have to

(49:44):
dance like a monkey and you knowyou need to do these things.
Um,'cause they're not gonna doit.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm like, very basic.
I'm like, so just do this andjust do the, you know what I
mean?
Okay.
And if they are someone who'svery on camera, I'm like, right,
we can go, we can start fromthis point with you and now
these are the things that Iwould recommend that you do.

Okay.
So then without kind of askingyou to give too much free
advice, what would you say orwhat is your advice to writers?
It, it sounds like what you'resaying is, and I'm just gonna
paraphrase, start from where youare.
Like, start with what you feelcomfortable with.
Is that right?

Yes, absolutely.
But I find you do have to pushyourself out of your comfort
zone.
So one thing that I Yeah, Iknow, and Natasha, I heard you
talk, you say something on oneof the episodes where you said,
oh, I go to post and I thinkthat's too boring and I don't
Yes.
And I, I wanna talk to you aboutthat.
You need to reframe it.
What you are posting isn'tboring.

(50:41):
It's relatable.
Mm.
Anything that you think isboring is very normal to other
people, and they probably wannahave a talk about it because if
you are just posting the big,exciting things and I'm at this
festival and I'm doing that,the, the other people can't
relate.
Like, yeah, they'll be like,that's cool.
Natasha's doing really coolthings, but they can't really

(51:01):
have a conversation with youabout that.
And so I'll give you an example,two times in my life when I've
had the most dms that I've everhad in my life was one when I
announced my book deal.
Fantastic.
Amazing.
Great.
Thank you people.
The other time was when I talkedabout how I made Mee Goreng
noodles and how my cousin makesMee Goreng noodles.
I just jumped on my stories oneday.
I don't know why.
I was just like, oh, I didn'trealize people made them

(51:22):
different way.
My dms like blew up.
It took me a week to get throughit.
People wanted to tell me howthey make their big green
noodles and which way theythought was the proper way.
And people who never comment,you know how people lurk, which
I lurk to.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
People who never have a chat allof a sudden just jumped in and
want to have a conversation.

(51:43):
And you might be thinking,Holly, but how does that relate
to book sales?
And the way it relates is thatyou are connecting with people.
You're not always selling withthem.
You don't wanna create, youdon't need more followers.
You need a stronger connectionwith the ones that you already
have.
So you need to talk to themabout things they wanna talk
about.
And apparently noodles issomething people wanna talk

(52:03):
about.

Yeah.
Okay.

But the other thing to remember is that people
buy from people that they like.
And I'm not saying you have tobe a likable person, but what I
mean is you have to have alike-mindedness with people.
So there has to be somethingthere that they gravitate
towards that isn't just yourbook.
Because you are only, you know,your book's out for a very small

(52:25):
period of time.
You can't just go back into yourwriting cave and not be on
social media and front up and belike, Hey guys, sorry I haven't
been here for a while.
Uh, but now I have a book outbecause then that's
transactional.
Yeah.
You haven't put in the effort.
You haven't, like, you are justthere to sell to someone and
they're going to sense thatimmediately.
You have to have these ongoingrelationships.

(52:46):
And then when it, when it doescome time, when your book's out,
people are so excited for you,they wanna support you, whether
they buy it or not.
They might share it, they mightrecommend it to a friend, but
you know, you ask someone thatthey feel is their friend and is
like them.
So that's one of my top tips.

Okay.
I feel like you've just blown mymind in like hundred different
ways.
I've got, I've got more.
See, because I never, like, Iknew it theoretically that you,
you can use social media toconnect with people, but.
I guess, because I don'tnecessarily always connect with
people like that.
I just had assumed that the typeof people who might connect with
me wouldn't.

(53:25):
But that is obviously not true.

Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm gonna give an example of nottalking about your book, uh, and
how, you know, you can stilltalk about topics and themes.
Kylie Orr who I think has beenon this podcast before, uh,
she's a great example of socialmedia and her newsletter because
she talks about things that, uh,so she has a newsletter called,

(53:49):
If I'm Honest, and she talksabout things that outrage her,
and they always have a feministspin and she's, you know,
really, um, dismantling thepatriarchy and stuff like that.
And so she's talking aboutsomething, not about her book.
You know when you read her bookthat they're going to have
themes like that in there.
Mm-hmm.
So she's just talking aboutthings that are on topic, you

(54:10):
know, especially for women.
'cause that's her target reader.
Yes.
Yeah.
You know what I mean?
And so I know, like, I honestlylove her newsletter.
I will make a cup of tea.
I will sit down and I will readit.
But I also know whenever I frontup to her, I will stop my scroll
because I know I'm gonna learnsomething or I'm gonna be
provoked in some way.
And I just, you know, I thinkthat's a really clever way of

(54:35):
making sure she's always there.
You know, people know who she a,who she is.
She gets asked a lot to, uh,host, you know, interview people
for events and things like that.
And the reason that is, isbecause when her book's not out,
she doesn't go and hide.
Mm.
She's still on camera.
You see her speak.
You can tell she's a greatspeaker.
She's very funny, she's verywitty.

(54:55):
So she's front of mind.
And then when she goes and doesthose events, her book is there
at those bookstores when she'sinterviewing people.
So she's making sales.
Yeah.
Do you know what I mean?
And I'm not saying Kylie doesthis in a strategic way.
I think she just, that is her.
Yeah.
But it actually works in herfavor.

And so, and so what about different social media
platforms?
Like is your, again, is your,does your advice come back to
where are you at now and what issuitable to you?

Yeah, I think you need to find somewhere that
you are comfortable being at.
Mm-hmm.
So maybe that's not even asocial media platform.
Maybe that is substack.
Mm-hmm.
Or maybe you wanna start apodcast and interview people.
It doesn't have to be socialmedia platform.
Okay.
You do have to have a level ofcomfort because I think what I
hear all the time from authorsis, I hate social media.

(55:46):
I don't wanna be there.
Now just think about that.
If someone rocked up to a partyand they said, I don't wanna be
at this party, and they stood inthe corner and they folded their
arms.
Mm-hmm.
Do you think anyone's gonnawanna sit with that person?
No, of course.
Or approach them?
No.
Yeah.
So you are bringing that energyto social media if that's how
you feel about it.
And I honestly, even if yourpublisher says you should be on

(56:07):
social media, I disagree.
I think you should be somewhereyou feel comfortable, because if
you're bringing that vibe, it'snot gonna work anyway.

Yes.
Yeah.
That's so true.

And maybe that's not the medium where you
express yourself.
Maybe you do need long form, solike a substack or a newsletter,
or maybe you do wanna have achat and you want to create a
YouTube channel or you know, ora podcast or something like
that.
Or maybe you instead go to yourlocal library and say, Hey, do
you have authors booked in?

(56:37):
I'd love to interview them.
I'll read their book and, andask them the questions you can
get out and, you know, be in thecommunity in some way that feels
comfortable to you.

Yeah.
So when you, and you don't haveto get specific, but when you're
working with writers who maybeare, are deathly terrified or
just uncomfortable

Yeah.

With any real kind of publicity, how do you
approach that?

So I just say don't talk about yourself, talk
about other people.
Oh, I see.
And also that's a great thing todo.
Like talk about other books thatare in your genre.
Talk about other authors,support other people.
Um, I don't think you need totalk about yourself until you
feel comfortable to do that.
But the other thing I think is,especially for women, I think
it's really hard for us to dothat.

(57:24):
But what I say is lie your freakflag.
And that means you tell peoplewho you are and what you're
about.
So own that.
Own that.
Like you don't always have to betalking about your book.
'cause like I said, you'retrying to strengthen that
connection.
So if you like something else,if you like, I don't know,
knitting, swing dancing, if youlike making salami, I don't know

(57:49):
if you like pugs like me, justtell people who you are because
this is your platform.
If people don't like it, they'llbugger off.
That's true.
Yeah.
But what you'll do is you'llactually attract the people who
do like it, and they'll stay,and you'll be having a good old
chat with people who like whatyou like.
Therefore, you are actuallygoing to enjoy the experience.
Like when I front up to socialmedia, I never think I'm going

(58:11):
to advertise to people or marketthem to sell my book.
I'm like, I wanna talk to myfriends.
So I've, you know, I talk aboutthings that of interest to me.
Motherhood, pugs, building ahouse, other things.
And all those people who likethat, they're going to come to
me.
And yes, maybe some of myreaders, they're probably not,
you know, they might not be atan age if they're mothers or

(58:33):
maybe they haven't, you know,chosen to be a mother or
whatever.
So they're not, they're gonnatune out for that part.
That's fine.
That's okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it's my life and it's myplatform.

Yeah.
That's true.
So I'm gonna talk about it'sYeah, exactly.
Because I know I'm much morecomfortable posting about books
I've read and loved.
Yes.
That's, I love doing thatbecause I'm like, oh, let's, I'm
so excited about this book.
Um, yes.

And people will feel that energy, Natasha.

Yeah.
My god, these are such goodtips.
I'm, I'm really aware that weare nearly out of time, which
is, that's okay.
I'm really sad about, because Iwanna ask you so much more.
Um, but, so just, I mean, you'vealready given us lots and lots
of tips, but I, I suppose I'mcurious about if you have

(59:18):
anything that you would've,would've helped you or that you
wanna pass on to other writerswho might be either a, writing
on the verge of a publicationdeal or, you know, I don't know,
still looking or submitting anyof that.
Is there anything that you wouldpass on from what you know now?

Yeah.
So I have two things.
Is that okay?

Of course.

Okay.
Um, my, my, my first thing iseven if you, you know, you're,
you don't have a book deal orwhatever, please don't feel like
you can't immerse yourself inthe writing community and that
your presence isn't welcomed orvalid.
I promise you it is.
Uh, you can start that damnnewsletter or post on social
media without ever knowing ifyou're going to be published.

(01:00:03):
You can be part of the writingand reading community, and
you're welcome to be there.
Do not think that, yeah, thatit's not a space for you and
that you have to wait forpermission.
I started my newsletter threeyears ago.
I didn't know if I'd ever getpublished, but I still freaking
sent it every month, you knowwhat I mean?
And I just write about random.
I wrote about my personal life,I wrote about my writing life,

(01:00:25):
whatever the books I love.
Just do that.
Just tell people again who youare, and they'll come to expect
it.
The ones who don't like it, theycan go away, and the ones that
do, they'll stick around.
And then when you have that bookdeal, they're gonna be so damn
excited for you.
So that's my first tip.
My other one is to get feedback.

(01:00:46):
Feedback is so valuable whenyou're writing, especially when
you start because you have thisbeautiful confidence that
everything you write is amazing.
And I promise you it's probablynot, uh, it probably is, maybe
yours is.
Mine definitely wasn't like whatI was writing.
Oh my God, a cringe so bad.
But you need that feedbackbecause you do have a confidence

(01:01:08):
that you don't have later on,unfortunately, when you second
guess yourself about everything.
Um, but you'll just learn a lot.
But get feedback from aprofessional, like a course do
the Australian Writers Center sothat you're getting feedback
that's not in a.
You know, some people can bevery blunt and they're not
really aware of your feelings.
Whereas people who give feedbackall the time, they're really
used to like giving you, youknow, telling you the things

(01:01:29):
you're doing well as well.
You actually need to hear that.
You just be like this, these areyour strengths.
So then, you know, to lean intothem, but also here's some
things you might not be aware ofand here's how you can fix them.
You need feedback like that.
So that would be my other thing.
Don't send something off that'snever seen the eyes of another

(01:01:50):
professional.
Um, even if it's like, do, donot send it.
Like I'm not talking about yourfriend or your partner or
something like that.
Someone who's not gonna blowsmoke up your Yeah, yeah.
We know what, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Natasha Rai (01:02:03):
No, no, that is excellent advice because yeah,
because I think a lot of people,um, get such glowing feedback
maybe from family and friendsand think, okay, this is great,
but that is excellent adviceactually.
You've given us so much.
So I'm really grateful for yourgenerosity.

Holly Brunnbauer (01:02:19):
Oh, thank you Natasha.

I've had such a blast talking to you, Holly.
Um, thank you again for comingon and for the listeners out
there, What Did I Miss?
is out on the 2nd of July.
Uh, so it will be out by thetime this episode airs.
Um, so read it and then you cancome back and listen to what
we're talking about.
Thanks, Holly.

Holly Brunnbauer (01:02:39):
Thank you so much.

Bye.

Tina Strachan (01:02:45):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new eps drop and to keep
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