The Takeover: Michelle See-Tho on winning a major literary prize, what happens behind the scenes after the win, and invaluable editing tips

Episode Transcript
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Natasha Rai (00:09):
This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover
by your host, Natasha Rai.
I'll be bringing you even moredebut and season authors as they
talk about their path topublication.

Madeleine Cleary (00:26):
The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters, which it's recorded
on and pays respect to theirelders past, present, and
emerging.

Michelle See-Tho is a freelance writer and
copywriter.
She has had articles and storiespublished in Kill Your Darlings,
Overland, and the Big IssueFiction Edition.
Jade and Emerald, her firstnovel won the 2023 Penguin
Literary Prize.

(01:01):
Hi, Michelle See-Tho, welcome tothe Book Deal podcast.

Michelle See-Tho (01:05):
It's great to be here.
Natasha,

how are you today?

Not too bad.
Uh, a little cold down here inMelbourne, otherwise.
Okay.

Yeah, I bet.
And just for listeners, we arerecording this quite late on a
Tuesday night, so thank you formaking the time.

It's not a problem at all.
I'm really excited to be here.

Excellent.
So I wanted to talk to you aboutyour novel, your debut novel,
Jade and Emerald, and also theprocess and your publication
journey.
But I just wanna start by sayingthat I absolutely loved your
novel.
And I read it in a couple ofdays.
So how do you feel about givingme your elevator pitch for Jade

(01:42):
and Emerald?

I would love to do that.
So Jade and Emerald is the storyof a lonely, tall year old girl
who forms an unlikely friendshipwith a older, rich hedonistic
socialite.
Their friendship strains herrelationship with her mother,
which is already fraught becauseher mum's really strict.
It covers themes of class andrace, loneliness, and family as

(02:06):
well, and it's set in Australiain the 1990s.

Excellent.
You've had a bit of practice atthat.

Yeah.
Well, I mean, we can talk aboutthat as well, but that was one
of the requirements for thePenguin Literary prize.

Ah, yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
So this novel did win the 2023Penguin Literary Prize.
Congratulations again.

Thank you.
Thank you.

And I do wanna come to that, but I'm actually dying
to ask you some questions aboutthe novel itself.
Yes.
So, if it's okay to start there.
So the three characters I wasreally drawn into the.
Two different veryrelationships.
I was really interested in therelationship she has with her
mum and then the relationship weha she has with, did you say
Gigi or Giggy?

Gigi.

Gigi.
It is Gigi.
Yeah.
So I'm curious as to what yourstarting point was.
How did you start thismanuscript, this novel?

I mean like I guess the idea for it kind of
came to me after a long time ofme trying to develop an idea for
a novel.
Like I knew that I wanted towrite a novel, but I didn't
really know what it was gonna beabout or anything like that.
And I was kind of playing aroundwith a lot of different ideas
and none of them grabbed me as aplot worthy of a novel length

(03:16):
book.

The ideas that you were playing with, did you have
characters in mind at that timeor were you mainly playing with
story?

A bit of both.
I did notice that there were alot of themes that kept
recurring.
So one of the big ones wasloneliness.
Another one was class.
I often kind of had youngprotagonists.
There wasn't really anythingkind of concrete until in COVID
and in like the lockdown in2021.
And I, I do specificallyremember this mument where I was

(03:44):
sort of drying my hair and I wasthinking about this idea of, uh,
unlikely friendship between achild and.
An adult, it's sort of likebuilt out from there.

Mm-hmm.
And so out of that, what's yourprocess?
Are you a plotter or do you liketo start writing scenes?
How, how does that work for you?

Yeah, you know, it's quite interesting
because with the ideas that I'dhad before Jade and Emerald that
weren't really going anywhere, Ifelt like they were a bit more
pants esque and I'd sort of justlike ride outta scene and then I
wouldn't really know what to dowith it after that.
But with Jade and Emerald, whatcame to me first was that kind
of friendship and then I'd sortof built the plot around that

(04:25):
without really writing too much,if that makes sense.
Like sort of just going like thestory beats.
And I think for whatever reason,that was really helpful in me
kind of like making it into likean actual novel because I sort
of knew what was gonna happen.

Hmm.
And without giving away anyspoilers Hmm.
How did you conceive of thisadult person who might form a
friendship with a, a child,essentially?

Yeah.
I think like I was just reallyinterested in someone who was.
Glamorous and fabulous, but alsosomeone who was unlike anything
that my protagonist had ever metbefore, and almost like the
opposite to her mother andwho's, you know, sort of her
main parent figure in her life.
I really liked, yeah, that kindof contrast between the two of

(05:18):
them.
And I also kind of wasinterested in the idea of like
someone who could look after mynarrator, but that wasn't
apparent and that wasn't relatedto it.

Yeah, and again, I'm, I'm choosing my words very
carefully, but what I lovedabout it was the aspects of Lei
Ling's personality that Gigireally speaks to that kind of
fun childlike quality.
'cause she is very childlike inthe things she loves.
And she allows Lei Ling almostto be that 12-year-old because

(05:51):
when she's with her mum.
And I really got that too.
Like I really understood thatresponsibility and the financial
burdens and the stresses thatshe has to help her mum kind of,
not bear them, but share them, Iguess.
And there was this beautifulescape out of that for her with
this, in this friendship.

Yeah, I, I'm really glad that that kind of
comes across, was kind of one ofthe things I wanted, I guess
like with Gigi's lifestyle, youknow, her having so much money
gives her the freedom to bequiet, childlike, like even as
an adult, she still lives withher family, which is very common
in Asian cultures as well.
But I think it is also a littlebit of a sign of like, she

(06:33):
hasn't really matured that much.
Her job was given to her by herfather.
She just never really have towork for anything.
And so she is kind of able to belike quite childlike in that
regard.

Yeah, and I mean that, I've definitely felt that
when I was reading it.
So once you started writing,kind of plotting out the beats,
as you say, how did her mum'scharacter evolve for you?

Her mother was actually kind of a contrast to
Gigi in that I wanted her tohave a reason to want to go with
this strange adult woman.
Yes.
Because I think like it would bea bit unusual, I guess, for her
to just run off with this womanthat she doesn't know.
So I built the mother as like a,a force that sort of pushes her

(07:17):
away.
She is got like this quitefraught relationship with her
mother.
Mother's really strict.
She doesn't kind of let her dothings that.
Her friends might considernormal or peers rather.
And so like it, that kind ofacts as a reason for her to get
away from.

Yeah, and you know, I was really torn between
feeling a lot of sympathy andempathy for both mother and
daughter while also feeling likethere were times where I'm like,
this is.
So punitive and feeling so badfor both of them.
'cause that element that youtalk about, loneliness just
really came through that eventogether.

(07:53):
They're both just cocooned intheir own loneliness.
Yeah, it was so beautifullydone.

Oh, thank you.
And yeah, it's really nice tohear that.
It kind of comes across thatway.
'cause I did kind of want.
There to be that element of thatand for people to also be able
to empathize with the mother,like I didn't want her to be
like this antagonist throughoutthe whole novel, even though a
lot of the time she is, butthere's a.
There's a reason.
Mm, yeah.

Yeah.
Which we'll not go into rightnow,

I guess.
Like, yeah, she, she's a bitmore of a nuanced character than
just like a outright, strict,mean person.
Exactly.

Exactly.
So this was the beginning of2021.
So you, we are all just kindoutta lockdowns.
And you had this idea for thisfriendship as you said, and
you're sort of plotting itrather the story beat.
So how long did it take you tohave a draft of some kind?

In essence, it took about a year, but what
happened was I sort of startedwriting it, you know, following
the structure that I'd made formyself.
And then I entered it into theKill Your Darlings Mentors
program.

And so can you just, um, explain that, um, for
listeners who may not know whatthat is.

The Kill Your Darlings Mentors Program is a
program that's run through theliterary journal, Kill Your
Darlings.
Essentially it runs over sixmonths.
Uh, you get paired with a mentorwho is a successful published
author, and over the course ofthat time, you have a goal of.
Producing a manuscript, youwrite about 10,000 words a month

(09:24):
and then submit that to yourmentor and then you meet with
them and discuss it and youknow, you kind of get feedback
on what you've written.

Yeah.
Sounds great.
And it's still going, right?
Yeah.
What did you have to submit tothe program?

You had to submit a 10 page sample as well
as like a full synopsis of yournovel with spoilers and
everything.
And you also had to sort of givelike some information, like your
name and your experience, likethe type, yeah.
Yeah.
And you also had to nominate whoof the mentors that you wanted
to be paired with.
And so I chose Melanie Chang.

Okay.
And so when you submit your 10pages in your synopsis, do you
have to have a full manuscriptwritten or is that the point
that over six months you do itwith your mentor, like reading
your, yeah.
Yeah.
Cool.
Yeah.
So the, the mentor.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you nominated Melanie Ching.

Yeah, it's amazing.
Yeah.
Yeah.
She is amazing and she'smentoring again, so, you know,
highly recommend to nominate herfor anyone who's thinking about
doing the program.
'cause it is a really amazingexperience, you know, if you've
got the time and the money aswell.
'cause it is a little bitexpensive.
It's a really great thing to dobecause there aren't that many

(10:34):
programs out there forunfinished manuscripts.
I felt like there's a lot ofprizes, um, and things like
that.
For when you've finished amanuscript, but it's like
getting to that point is sodifficult in itself, especially
when you've never done itbefore.

Yeah, exactly.
Because the program you'retalking about, the KYD
mentorship program and probablythe Richell prize are the only
two that you don't need a fullmanuscript.
Yeah.

Well, maybe the Wheeler Center next chapter
as well.
I'm not, oh, maybe.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But there's not that many.
Yeah, it's true.

So you submitted into that and then what happened
next?

Then I got accepted into the program.
Oh, yay.
Um, which was really exciting.
And as well, because like I say,I had had like a few ideas and
things like that.
I submitted this one and thenwhen I got accepted, I thought
of that as being like a kind ofsign, like I was like, this
novel could be something

for sure.
When you win something likethat, it just gives you such a
boost, doesn't it?

Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
I did the mentorship with Meland like I said, it was a really
great experience.
She was.
Really kind of caring andattentive to my work.
And she would give feedback onsort of the high level things
like the plot and characters.
But then she'd also givefeedback on like the sort of

(11:50):
line by line, like my prosedialogue, the, the kind of more
specific things that make up a,a novel.

So what do you feel, looking back now, it's
been, you know, three, fouryears, four years even.
What did you gain from that interms of lessons you've learned?
Writing generally.

One of the main things that I learned was
more about kind of line editswas about similes.
So I kind of used to just likekind of throw in a simile that I
thought like sounded nice or Ijust thought was like a pretty
visual, something like that.
But Mel's kind of approach wasto think about.
What your similarly can sayabout your character.

(12:30):
So Lei Ling, as an example inthe novel, the first time that
Lei Ling sees Gigi's Chanel bag,she says that the Chanel logo
looks like an Algebra X.
Yeah.
And like for me, that's kind oflike revealing that, you know,
Lei Ling's experience is largelyacademic.
You know, she spends a lot oftime at school and then at
Kumon.

(12:51):
Exactly.
So like the way that she seesthe world is through that lens.

Actually, yeah, that's true.
Now that you say that, I can'tremember off the top of my head,
but it's actually reallybringing to the front of my
mind, like a lot of herobservations on objects and
other like, you know, even that,um, the other mean girl at
school whose name has totallyescaped my mind.

Angela.

Angela, that's it.
Even when she notices thingslike her, like all the objects
she can place at the similes arethings from her own world.
Yeah, so, sorry.
That was, that was really vague.
I'm sure when people read it,they'll understand what I'm
talking about.

Yeah, no, I mean,'cause even I myself, like
looking back, I was, I was justthen trying to think about which
ones I'd use.
But you know, or just ingeneral, like, you know, to say
something is like.
Is pink like roses versus it'spink.
Like flesh is like, those arequite different kind of ways of
describing something.

Yeah.
Because even the smells, like, Ithink she compares the smells to
like things she s smelled in herown apartment and on her mum
and, and even the shampoo,sorry, I won't bo everyone like
going through every singlesimile, but that's a really,
actually, that's a really goodtip.
I really like that.
So by the end of yourmentorship, did you have a draft
or a full manuscript written?

I did.
I wasn't that happy with it.
Okay.
I was kind of like, oh, youknow, I'm like, I wanna spend
like another like year kind ofgoing through it.
But Mel said, she was like,you're ready.
Just go submit to places.
'cause like you never know kindof what's gonna happen.
And she kind of felt as welllike.

(14:24):
I think maybe by the end of thementorship she'd gotten to know
me quite well and she was like,you can't just like tinker away
at it forever.
Which is honestly the kind ofthing that I would do.

And it's so easy to do.
'cause you can always findsomething to fix.
Right?

You absolutely can.
Yeah.
And she said herself that theseprizes aren't looking for.
Uh, ready to publish piece.
They're just looking for yourpotential.
And so I got to submitting, Ithink I submitted to like six or
seven unpublished prizes.
Mm-hmm.
And got rejected by all of them.
So then when I submitted to thePenguin Literary Prize, I

(15:00):
literally thought to myself, oh,this is just another prize
that's gonna reject me.

Yeah.
Also, just like you did for theKYD mentorships, can you just
explain what the prize is andwhat the, what you win?

So the Penguin literary prize is a book deal.
You get a$20,000 advance as wellas the opportunity to publish
with Penguin Random House.
And so yeah, it's everythingthat kind of goes along with
that.
Like yeah, the A major price.
Yeah, yeah.
The editing process, thepublicity as well.

And so under the prize, do they give you a time
limit?
So like when you enter it, dothey, does the terms and
conditions say how soonafterwards they might publish
your book?
Because

I do think it depends on the book itself.
Yeah.
So when I won, my publisher saidthat she felt that it was quite
close to being ready and shefelt that the edits would only
take a year.
That was a shock to me becauseyeah, like I said, I, I was
gonna say, you said you weren'thappy.

(16:04):
Yeah.
And we did end up meeting thatone year deadline with like, a
few things changed, which, okay.
So now, we'll later.
Yeah.
Yeah.

So, so you submitted this in 2022, right?
Because if it won the 2023

Yes, that's right.
Yeah, yeah,

Yeah.
I, and like, yeah, I know.
I'm, I'm trying to work this outwith you, so.
Like most competitions, is itthe full manuscript and a
synopsis and a bio?
Right?

So it's, yeah, the full manuscript bio, like a
full sort of one page synopsisand then also like a two to
three sentence sort of plotdescription, hence the elevator
pitch that I said.
Oh yes.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Okay.
So you submit and you're like,well, probably nothing will
happen.
Mm-hmm.
And um, so.

What happened?
So is there a shortlist or howdid some Yeah.
Okay.

Yeah, so they notified me that I was on the
shortlist in March, I think, of

how, how did you find out?

Email.
Meredith emailed all of us and,and yeah, said, uh,
congratulations, you're on theshort list, which was.
So like, it, it was so wildbecause I guess like, you know,
you get emails all the time fromlike Myer or like Bonds and
stuff, and I'm so used to kindof being all like, like, oh

(17:25):
yeah, that's, that's nothing.
And, and you know, it was justlike another email, but it was
like, they like the, I know.
Yeah.

Do you remember how you felt when you read that,
that you were made the shortlist?

I mean, like, I, it was like.
So surreal, I think.
'cause like I just, I justdidn't expect anything at all to
come out of this prize.
And, and I do remember I wasstanding in my kitchen and just
like, looking at my phone and Isort of like doubled over
overall because I, I was soshocked.
Yeah.

(17:58):
Um, yeah.
But a bit, I mean, obviouslyyeah, a great, a great feeling
as well.
Is it, it did also come with asort of sense that I was like.
Has there been a mistake?

Oh yes.
The usual imposter syndrome.
Yeah.
So do you remember, or do youknow how many titles were
shortlisted alongside you?

Yes, there were six people and all of their
novels did sound really good aswell.
Yeah, I'd be keen to knowwhether or not their novels kind
of published or anything.
Kinda happened with themafterwards,

so.
So you said that that theshortlist was March?
Mm-hmm.
2023.
And then how long did you haveto wait for them to announce the
winner?

I think it was like two months, but I went on
holiday in between like, likenot intentionally to not hear
about the Oh yeah.
Winter or whatever.
Yeah, sure.
Yeah.
It was like, happened to be thatI already had a holiday booked
and so I went away and I wasn'treally thinking about it.
And then when I came back, youknow, it was like another month

(18:55):
or so, yeah, they notified methat I had won in May, I think
of 2023.

And, and how, what was that notification?

Yeah, that that was an interesting story.
Yeah, because I'm a freelancerin advertising is my sort of day
job.
Yeah.
And I was at an ad agency thatrequired me to be in the office.
I was in a meeting and I got anemail from Meredith that said,
Michelle, I have some news foryou.
Can you call me?

Oh, oh my God.

It was really vague,

but what, what did you think?
Like, what did you think itmeant?
Do you remember?

I remember thinking like, I have no idea
what this means.
Like it could be anything.
And,'cause I was in a meetingwhen it happened, I was like.
Is when is this meeting gonnaend?
Sort of fidgety for like, youknow, the rest of the 45 minutes
or whatever.
And so when it did end, finallyI went outside and I was like

(19:52):
standing in this alleyway andthere was lots of construction
around.
And so, you know, I called herand I was like, oh God, am I
gonna be able to hear this?
I did hear it and she said, oh,you know, I wanted to tell you
that you've won.

Oh, what a moment.

It was really crazy.
Like I, yeah, I like, I getasthma and I kind of felt like I
couldn't breathe for a secondand I was like, it's just, I
don't know what I was expecting.
It was very like, this reallycould be anything.
It could be like, oh, you know,we made a mistake.
You're not on the short listanymore.
Oh.

(20:27):
Like all the way to like, yeah,you've won.
And I just didn't know like.
Yeah, what it could have beenand yeah, so it was, yeah, it
was really incredible.

I've not done the same.
I haven't won any prizes.
But that idea of they've made amistake, they're gonna take this
away.
Yeah, that really, that reallyresonates with me.
I'm like, oh yeah, that's a ho,horribly familiar feeling.
Yeah.

Yeah.
And I've learned that that'svery common too.
A lot of you work so hard on it,and then you get the rejections
and you hear so many stories ofrejections that you kind of
think like, oh, you know, it'sgonna be like.
Years until anything happens.
So yeah, it was, it was crazy.

But did you like, I don't know, did you even work
the rest of the day?
How did, could you concentrate?
Oh

gosh, yeah.
Then I had to go back in and,and yeah.
Yeah.
Meet a deadline and, um, soyeah, I was under embargo, so
they were like, oh, you know,you can't yeah.
Tell people like, you know,apart from your partner and your
friends yeah.
Sort of thing.
Yeah.
So, yeah, I just kind of had tolike.
Pretend that everything wasnormal and just work for the
rest of the day.
Oh God.
Yeah, so, so what was it in theafternoon?

(21:35):
Sorry, go on.
Oh, it was in the afternoon, soit wasn't too long of a day.

Emma Babbington (21:44):
Hi, listeners of the Book Deal podcast.
My name's Emma Babington and I'mpart of the 2025 debut crew, an
author of the Neighbors, whichcame out in July through hq,
part of Harper Collins.
My novel is part psychologicalthriller, part family mystery,
and the jumping off point forwriting.
It was wondering just how far aperson would go to protect their
loved one, even if theysuspected that person were

(22:05):
caught up in something terrible.
It begins with a suspiciousdeath of a man called Dr.
Richard Wellington at his localpark while he's out running, and
his neighbor, Liv, soondiscovers her teenage daughter,
Gracie, was there at the time,and quickly gets the sense that
something's not quite right, andshe wonders if Gracie perhaps
saw something or was involved insome way.
For a number of reasons.
Liv decides to do all, she can'tshield her daughter from the

(22:27):
police investigation and thensets off on her own quest to
find out who the murderer couldbe.
All the while having thiscreeping dread that Gracie
might've done the unthinkableand killed their neighbor, and
there are a lot of suspectsbecause it turns out Richard was
not a good guy.
The neighbors are set in theHarborside Sydney suburb at the
height of a scorching summer andasks if we can ever really know

(22:47):
or trust the people next door.
There are lots of twists andturns, and while it's a murder
mystery, I hope readers enjoywhat is above all else, a
celebration of female friendshipand strength.
Thanks so much to Natasha,Madeline, and Tina for letting
me come and talk about theneighbors, which is available
now.

So what was the timing between you finding out
and then the announcement?

Yeah, it wasn't too long.
I think it was only like twoweeks or less.

Okay.
Oh, that's good.
You don't have to hold it fortoo long.

Yeah.
Yeah.
And in between, like I, I got togo to the Penguin office and,
uh, you know, meet with somepublishers and editors and the
marketing team and, and, uh, andthey gave me my trophy and lots
of books.

Oh my God.
There's a trophy.

Yeah.
It's actually, well, well,obviously not from the podcast,
but, um, oh, it's a, it's apenguin.
Of course.
It's, yeah.

Yeah.
Gosh.
And, and you got free books.
Did you say?

Uh, yeah, they gave me a bunch of Penguin
titles, so the previous year'swinners and just like a few
other ones that were sort ofpopular at that time.
And it was very nice.
It, yeah, it felt, um, veryspecial.

Yeah.
I mean, it's a huge achievement.
It's, you know, well done.
Um, so after the announcementmm-hmm.
What happens or what happenednext?

Yeah, so I think it was maybe a month later
we sort of started on structuraledits.
So should I sort of explain howstructural, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So I didn't know anything aboutthe editing process, but I
learned along the way that yousort of go through like
structural edits, which areusually moving around like

(24:34):
chapters and then checkingthings like passage of time.

And can I ask you a question about that?
Yeah.
Had you and Meredith had aconversation before?
The prize was announced at anypoint about what structural
edits might be required if youwon, or was that all done after
you won it?

So on the phone, when she told me that I'd
won, we did kind of very roughlytalk about a couple of little
things.
So it was things like Lei Ling'sage.
So initially when I wrote it, Iwrote her as 10 years old.
But, um, Meredith sort of saidlike she, you know, the way she
talks and the things that she'sdoing sort of sound like a few
years older.
So that was kind of a bigchange.

(25:15):
And then like, there were otherquestions like, oh, how, like,
how talented is she at violin?
Because I guess it wasn't clearin those earlier drafts.
Whereas I, I hope it's a bitclearer in it's, yeah, she's not
very good.
Yes, she's not.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
But she kind of thinks that sheis.
Yeah.

I mean, it's a very, it's again, very
childlike.
Mm-hmm.
Like that wishful thinking of,well, I am good.
Yeah,

yeah.
Yeah.
So those were the kind of main,and it's like structurally it's
very linear, so we actuallydidn't really have to move too
much around.
Those were the things that shekind of told me on the phone,
and then later on we kind oftalked a little more detail
about, yeah, yeah.
More specific things.

So you, before you started the structural story,
you had to sign a contract withthem?
Yes, that's right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And did you have an agent, ordid you have any support in
terms of helping you, you know,not that you can't understand a
contract, but just, yeah, makingsure that you're signing up to
things that you could deliver,et cetera.

I did not have an agent.
No.

Cool.
So you signed this contractabout a month after the
announcement.
She gets in touch and you startdoing a structural edit.
Yeah.
So did she send you.
That first contact you had withher.
I'm just getting very specific'cause um, it's just really
interesting to see what happensbehind the scenes.
Mm-hmm.
After, you know, um, a winner'sannounced.

(26:39):
So did Meredith kind of say,okay, I'm gonna send you over my
edits?
Or was the first contact you hadwith her was, Hey, here are your
edits and you have this muchtime to get them back to me.

No, no, no.
It was more the first one.
Yeah.
That she kind of like pro me alittle bit in advance that, uh,
this will happen and, and theseare the kind of the timings.

Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And, and as part of the timingsconversation mm-hmm.
Did you find out at that pointthe kind of projected
publication date for Jade andEmerald?

Yeah, and like, I think because she felt
that it was so, likestructurally sound.
She thought that we didn't haveto go through too many rounds of
edits.
Mm.
And she said, yeah, it will belike a little over a year.
'cause at that time, I think itwas, yeah, it was June, yeah.
When they announced it.
And then the publication datewas July of 2024.

Oh yeah.
Okay.
Hmm.
Okay.
So do you remember how long ittook to get through structural
edits?

Well, you know, I, it's funny'cause um, in
preparing for this podcast, Ikind of went back and sort of
like traced through my emailsjust to get a sense of how long
things took.
So it's, it's a little fresherin my mind than it normally is.
So, structural edits were abouttwo months.

That's really fast.

Yeah.
Well, I expected it to belonger, but, um, yeah, it was,
um, it was just sort of oneround of it.
And most of the.
Like I said, yeah, the editswere about like her age and then
the sort of passage of time, somaking sure that like, you know,
I count of things like schoolholidays and then the season's
changing so you know that, youknow, it gets colder when it's

(28:21):
winter.
That sort of thing.

Yeah.
Yeah.
And so once you submitted youredits mm-hmm.
Was there then a bit of timewhen the editors went over it?
Yeah.
Yeah.
How, what was that like?
Yeah.

Yeah.
So I think like they did kind oflike warn me that it would be
sort of like the work would bewith me for a while and then I'd
send it back to them, and then Iwouldn't hear anything for a
while because they'd be kind ofworking on it.
Mm-hmm.
And then it would come back tome and that would be the sort of
like essentially the, theprocess.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And so I think it was likeanother month or so that it was

(28:58):
like kind of quiet and I didn'treally, sorry, I'm just
calculating it.
Yeah, that's okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah, so, okay.
So I did the two months ofstructural edits and then sent
it back to them, and then theyhad it for two months before it
came back to me.
Yeah.
Okay.
Uh, with line edits.
Yeah.

So by October, November you were doing line
edits?

Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
But the line edits did go onfor, that was probably like the
longest sort of stint of editsthat I did.
So that lasted until January.
So what happened was, obviouslywe had the Christmas break then,
and then I got COVID.
Oh.
So I kind of had to extend mydeadline a little bit.
But they had left like someleeway in their schedule.

(29:40):
So ultimately the launch datedidn't change.
So that was nice.
So line edits were very closeprose reading, checking things
like dialogue as well.
And then I had the opportunityto kind of add in more lovely
poetic prose pieces, which Ireally enjoyed.

Nice.
Yeah.

And then around that time we also kind of
talked about covers.
Um, and I had like a sort offirst pass of covers.

So when you say first pass, how much kind of
involvement or what did you.
How did they do that with you?

I'm told that a lot of authors aren't super
involved in their covers, butgoing into it, at that time, I
didn't know how littleinvolvement there would be.
So I kind of received a fewoptions for covers, and if I can
be honest, I, I wasn't reallythat happy with them, I guess,
like I had just had like athought in mind about like
covers that I liked.

(30:35):
I didn't necessarily feel thatthe ones I'd gotten were
reflective of like what I wantedit to be.
And so I feel very lucky becausethe, the team at Penguin really
did kind of want to go back andforth with me on it.
And so yeah, they did kind oflet me have a bit of input and I
could send over some referencesand things like that of covers
that I did like and that I kindof wanted.

(30:58):
Like this sort of thing.
Yeah.
Um, and so, and so we landed onthe cover that we have, which I
really love.
Yeah.
It's both of em.
Um, yeah.
Yeah.
But, um, yeah, there was like alittle bit of back and forth.
Yeah.

So at what point, so we're into 2024 now, so at
what point did.
You kind of get told, all right,we're done now proofread.
It's about to go to print.
Do you remember?

So I think that happened around April May.
So in between like the lineedits and that, like we had a
sort of first pages, which islike, they essentially like
print it.
Like, and it's kind of like inPDF form, but it looks like what
it would look like in a book.
Oh yeah.
And so you get like anotherchance to kind of read it and

(31:49):
it, and like you notice thingsthat you don't notice when it's
in a Word document.
Things like.
Sort of stick out to youdifferently when they're in that
form.
I don't know why.

I think it's because they type set it, don't
they?
And you can see gaps and weirdwords and Yeah, I dunno.
It just looks different somehow.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And then they printed the arcs,advanced review copies.
Yes.
Yeah.
And so got to hold.
That was very cool.
Although I was a bit nervouswhen they did that.
'cause I like, like I was sayingbefore, I'm very like, you know,
I probably would never have letit go.
So when they said, oh, you know,we're printing this.
I was like, printing, no, no,no, I'm not ready.

(32:30):
And then they were like, oh, youknow, it's so that you can get
like the quotes on the cover.
Oh yeah.
The cover quotes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then, yeah, obviously to getreviews as well.
And so.
Yeah, we did another round ofedits and then the proofread and
Yeah, and then it went to printin, yeah, April, may.

Yeah.
So under like the prize terms,did you know, or did they kind
of explain what your commitmentswere around publicity or?

Yeah, I think it was like, it said something
like, oh, you know, uh, a totalof two weeks of publicity, but
it's not like two weeks kind ofblocked out at one time.
It's sort of like spread over,you know, a few months.

And so what types of things did you do at that
time when, when your book wasout?

Well, the launch is probably the most,
like the sort of centerpieceYes.
Of it all.
Yeah.
And like that's an event that weheld our readings in Melbourne
and Melanie Chang hosted thelaunch.
Beautiful.
Yes.
Yeah.
And so we kind of had like a qand a and you know, I got
dressed up and invited all myfriends.

How was that for you?
Like, did you have a good time?
Were you nervous?
Were you excited?
All of it?

Yeah.
Yeah.
Um, it went by very quickly.
Yeah.
I was kind of nervous about it.
'cause as I'm sure a lot ofother writers are, like, I'm an
introvert and, you know, I hadbeen sitting by myself
essentially and like writingthis for, you know, so long that
suddenly it was in the world andI had to talk about it.
And that felt really weird.

(34:03):
Like, you know, um, kind of likehaving a lot of people look at
me and ask questions about itYeah.
Is like quite different to whatI'm used to.
Um,

and it's, and it's on the page, but it's no longer
just a file on your laptop or

Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Attachments on emails betweenyou and your publisher.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And it has been like, great inits own way, seeing it out in
the world and like, you know,hearing people like yourself
kind of, you know, read it andhave such nice things to say
about it.
It's really.
Yeah, it's really rewarding.

Oh, that's really beautiful.
So did they organize like a tourfor you or was the launch kind
of the main event and then youdid things around Melbourne?

I did a couple of different, like events and
interviews and things.
So yeah, like I said, the launchwas the main one, but I did also
have podcasts and radiointerviews and some print as
well.
And then I went to Geelong forlike a, a sort of little
bookshop crawl.
I went to a few differentbookshops and like did signings
and met with people and stuff.

(35:07):
And then I went to Sydney and Idid a few events at like
libraries and bookshops there aswell.

And, and that was all organized by Penguin and
like their publicists, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.

So they were quite good at kind of reaching
out to different places andorganizing things.
Pretty much everything wasorganized through Penguin.

Yeah.
And um, you know, so I don'tknow like, but.
Penguin has the same, but youknow, some prizes, the winner
sometimes has to do like somemedia content or write something
about what it means to win theprize, et cetera.
Did you have any kind ofobligation like that?

No.
Kind of huge commitment.
I did write like a fewstatements for like the press
release and for the website.
And for things like when theyopened the prize for the next
year, talking about like howgreat it was to win it and like
why people should enter it, thatsort of thing.

Yeah, for sure.
For sure.
Yeah.
And, and in your prize deal,does Penguin have an option like
to look at your next book

or, yeah, it's first option, but it's not like,
it's not like a two book deal.
Yeah,

yeah, yeah.
Um, so for listeners who are notsure what that means, an option
is where the publisher basicallygets to see a manuscript first
and can decide if they want totake it or pass, right?

Yes.

Yeah.
Yeah.
And so during all of thatprocess of editing and then
leading up to publication, wereyou working on something else?
Were you kind of just focused onJade and Emerald?
What was that time like for you?

I was pretty much just focused on Jade and
Emerald, I suppose.
Like I shouldn't be surprised,but I was surprised by how much
mental energy it took.
Like not just the editsthemselves, but the publicity
was really quite like mentallytaxing in its own way.
And so like I didn't really havemuch other space to focus on
other things.

Yeah, for sure.
'cause of work as well and lifegenerally.
Life, yeah.
So, so what's life been like foryou a year on.
What's your writing practicelook like?
What does Yeah.
Book stuff look like?

I mean, I've kind of been more doing kind of
smaller pieces, so like opinionpieces or like short stories and
things like that.
I had a piece published on, um,the Griffith Review online not
too long ago.
And I also regularly write videogame reviews, so Nintendo Life.
So that's sort of been like mywriting kind of space at the

(37:33):
mument.
And as well, like in my kind ofadvertising life, I've had like
a few kind of extracurricular.
Advertising things I've beendoing.
So yeah, I haven't really kindof started on like a second
book.

Mm-hmm.
So do you feel any pressure?

Only kind of when I get the comparison bug,
you know, like sometimes I'lllook at like Instagram and see
like other authors kind ofputting out things and like I'm
always excited to read books byauthors I love.
And so like I do feel like, oh,you know, if people really liked
Jade and Emerald, like I'dreally love to give them.
Something else, you know?

(38:09):
Yeah.
Um, but at the same time it'slike, like I kind of had the
opportunity to spend a lot oftime on it and put a lot of
craft into that number.
Like, I'd like to do that withmy second as well.
You know, you kind of don'tnecessarily wanna be like
pumping them out

for sure.
Yeah.
So do you feel like you havethe, the right head space,
right.
You know, at the moment or.
I don't know, inspiration to getstarted on something novel
length or are you kind of theshorter pieces that you're doing
that they're really feeding youfor where you are?

Yeah, I think I'm pretty good at the moment.
Yeah.
Like I, I definitely want towrite a second book and like I
said, I had like kind of othersort of very rough ideas, so it
would be probably something thatI've already thought of that I
just need to work out exactlywhat that story is.

Sure.
So how would you say the prizehas kind of impacted you?

It was amazing.
Uh, I guess like when I startedwriting Jade and Emerald, or
even before it, like I wanted tohave a novel out in the world
and.
The prize.
Let me do that.
So yeah, I mean, like, it was,yeah, amazing.
And, and you know, like, becauseI had literally kind of gone
into it thinking that I wasn'tgonna get published at all.

(39:19):
It was really amazing that ithappened and so quickly and
with, you know, such aprestigious publisher.
Like it's still, it's stillpretty like crazy that it
happened even though.
You know, I know that ithappened.
I've got like proof thathappened.
It still sort of feels a bitsurreal.

Yeah, yeah, I get that.
So in terms of any tips oradvice that you would give to
emerging writers now, what wouldyou say?

I think never give up is a really important
piece of advice.
It's a cliche for a reason.
I also think that it kind ofworks in like a few different
ways.
So obviously, you know, there'sthe getting published side of it
as in like submit to lots ofplaces and don't stop doing that
kind of thing.
But it's true that there arelike so many avenues to

(40:07):
publications.
So it's like.
You know, I don't know if likeanybody could ever exhaust every
single avenue that there isbefore they get published, but I
sort of think there's like a,like a second level to it where
like you never kind of give upon your writing.
So if you like, always kind ofkeep trying to better yourself

(40:27):
as a writer or like, you know,read widely.
And like even if you're notnecessarily working on like a
novel like myself, like youknow, if you are kind of writing
other bits and pieces or evenjust like journal entries, like
I feel like that's like still aform of like not giving up.

Yeah, for sure.
And you know, and just a pointthat you made earlier about
after you finished yourmentorship and felt the
manuscript still wasn't readyfor writers who have that same
worry that.
Is my manuscript ready and Iknow there's no easy answer
'cause it really depends on thewriter and the manuscript.
What's your advice in terms ofhow someone could tackle that

(41:08):
problem or that issue of is thisactually ready to submit
somewhere?
Like what could they do to checkit for themselves if it is or
not?

I guess if you feel that like that's something
that you are proud of and that'ssomething that you're like,
you're willing to kind of likeput your name to.
And say to a publisher, youknow, like, yeah, this is mine.
Like I wrote this, and you know,and to sort of feel proud of it
in that way.
I think that's a pretty goodtest.

That's a great test actually.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I suppose if you're feelingself-conscious or embarrassed by
it, then that could speak tothat.
Maybe it needs a bit more workor something like more time.
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a great answer.
So I just wanted to say thankyou so much for coming on my
monthly episode and talking tome about Shannon Emerald and
your prize winning experience.

(42:02):
Congratulations once again.
It's such a beautiful book anddefinitely well deserved winning
that prize.

Oh, thank you so much.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It's been great chatting to you.
Uh, yeah.
Yeah.
It's a great podcast and I thinkthat like it's always helpful
for writers to kind of hear frompeople who have done it because
like that's how we all startedout.
Exactly.
We've all started out submittingsomewhere and then some magic
happens and you're at the rightplace at the right time, and.

Yeah, and it just goes from there.
So thank you so much for sharingyour experience.

Oh, thank you for having me.

Tina Strachan (42:40):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new EPS drop and to keep
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