In this episode of the Book Deal Podcast, host Natasha Rai interviews Australian Tamil lawyer and author Shankari Chandran. They discuss Chandran's journey in writing and publishing, focusing on her novels 'Unfinished Business,' 'Chai Time at Cinnamon Gardens,' and others. Chandran shares her experiences about navigating the literary world, dealing with rejections, and the importance of diversity in publishing. She also talks about her work's adaptation into TV series and offers advice for emerging writers. The episode sheds light on the challenges and triumphs faced by authors in the literary landscape.
00:00 Introduction to the Book Deal Podcast
00:34 Meet Shankari Chandran: Award-Winning Author
01:28 Discussing 'Unfinished Business'
03:11 The Journey of Writing and Publishing
07:36 The Role of Writing in Social Change
10:52 Navigating the Publishing Industry
18:05 Building a Writing Community
24:23 Introducing True South by Gisela Ervin-Ward
25:53 The Journey of Writing and Publishing
27:48 The Impact of Chai Time at Cinnamon Gardens
39:59 Navigating Diversity in Publishing
46:44 Advice for Emerging Writers
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Natasha Rai (00:09):
This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover
by your host, Natasha Rai.
I'll be bringing you even moredebut and season authors as they
talk about their path topublication.
Madeleine Cleary (00:26):
The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters, which it's recorded
on and pays respect to theirelders past, present, and
emerging.
Natasha Rai (00:34):
Shankari Chandran is an Australian Tamil lawyer
and author of Chai Time atCinnamon Gardens, Song of the
Sun God, The Barrier, Safe Havenand Unfinished Business.
Her fiction exploresdispossession and the creation
of community, and in 2023, shewon the Miles Franklin Literary
Award for Chai time at CinnamonGardens.
Shankari has spent over twodecades working as a lawyer in
(00:56):
the social justice field onnational and international
program design.
She's based in Sydney,Australia, where she lives with
her husband and children.
Hi Shankari Chandran, welcome tothe book Deal podcast.
Shankari Chandran (01:08):
Hi, Tash.
How are you?
Natasha Rai (01:10):
I'm very well.
How are you?
Shankari Chandran (01:11):
Very well, thank you.
Excited to be here with you.
Natasha Rai (01:14):
Thank you.
Um, so you've just been at theNewcastle Writers Festival this
weekend and uh, you were talkingabout a sense of place.
Is that right in your panel?
Shankari Chandran (01:23):
That's right.
With Jock Serong and AshleyKalagian Blunt.
Natasha Rai (01:27):
Yeah.
And I'm curious about how thatshows up in your latest novel
Unfinished Business.
'Cause this is your fifth novel,is that right?
Shankari Chandran (01:37):
It is my fifth novel.
Yes.
Yes.
Natasha Rai (01:40):
And it came out four months ago or a bit.
Shankari Chandran (01:43):
Yeah.
End of December, 2024.
That's, so it's really a sort of2025 release.
Natasha Rai (01:48):
Yeah.
Okay.
And how has that been?
I, I wanna talk about that in amoment, but how has that last
few months been for you?
Since it's been out?
Shankari Chandran (01:56):
It's been good.
We did a, a quieter launch thanusual because I'd launched, um,
un I'd launched Safe Haven, myfourth novel last year in May.
So that was May, 2024.
And then Unfinished Business wasDecember, 2024.
And, uh.
I figured booksellers would besick of seeing me and was really
(02:17):
happy to just go very low key,mostly online.
Um, and then quite a big, um, adbuy campaign for this particular
book.
So there've been posters and soon, which I've never had before.
It's super exciting, uh, to seeme, you know, in public spaces
like that.
Natasha Rai (02:36):
Yeah, and I actually wanna come back to that
in terms of that length of timebetween Safe haven and
Unfinished Business.
Um, but for now, how do you feelabout giving me your elevator
pitch for Unfinished Business?
Shankari Chandran (02:49):
Oh my God.
I got asked to do this at thefestival and do you know, it's
actually been eight years sinceI wrote this book between
writing it and publishing it, sowe can talk about that more
later.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yep, definitely.
And I've written many books inbetween.
And therefore, um, well not thatmany, but you know, a few.
And therefore I have, Ifrequently just forget what I've
done.
(03:09):
Um, but I shall do my best.
Unfinished Business is set in2009 at the end of Sri Lanka's
Civil War.
Amina Fernando, a journalist isexecuted on the streets of
Colombo.
No one knows who did it or why.
Was it the Sri Lankangovernment?
(03:29):
Was it the Chinese government orwas it the Tamil Tigers?
Ellie Harper.
A CIA agent is sent from the US.
Back to Sri Lanka where she waspart of a mission that had
failed many years before she hassent back to work with those
people that she let down toinvestigate the murder of a of
(03:53):
Amina Fernando.
In doing so, she goes on ajourney of redemption and comes
to respect this journalist thatshe never knew and uncover an
international weaponsconspiracy.
So Unfinished Business is aboutthe way that superpowers rising,
superpowers and agingsuperpowers play God in the
(04:18):
lives of other countries andother communities, and the
devastating impact that this canhave.
Natasha Rai (04:25):
That sounds amazing.
What?
What a great pitch.
And also,
Shankari Chandran (04:29):
thank you.
Thank you.
Natasha Rai (04:30):
Sadly.
Shankari Chandran (04:30):
Did you see that I could keep, I kept
forgetting.
Natasha Rai (04:33):
No, I couldn't see that.
Shankari Chandran (04:34):
The journalist's name.
I was like, God, what's her nameagain?
Natasha Rai (04:38):
No, but I was just gonna say it's also sadly re
still relevant, the idea ofsuperpowers and the influence
they have.
Shankari Chandran (04:44):
Right.
Yes, I think it, it's aninteresting one with this
particular novel because I didwrite it, um, the first draft I
wrote in 2016, and at the time Iwas particularly concerned
about, um, the aftermath of theSri Lankan Civil War.
I.
The, the international politicsof it had been, had not been
(05:04):
interrogated, nor had the, thedomestic injustices of it.
But I was also, I was, I wasinterested in both, um, and
particularly interested in therole that governments had played
in that conflict, either throughintervention or through
non-intervention.
And what is the culpability of,of these sort of state actors.
Um, and so I did want toprosecute what happened at the
(05:27):
end of the war and the role thatother countries took in our, in
domestic politics, and foundthat the thriller paradigm or
the thriller genre was the bestway to do it.
And I was particularlyinterested in.
The rise of China and its sortof securing of, its of its trade
routes and its energy andresource and infrastructure
routes.
(05:48):
And so when I wrote it, it was alittle bit out.
It was out there at the time,like no one was interested in
it.
Um, the sales from The Barrierhad not been.
Particularly strong.
Um, I think I like to joke, butI'm actually quite serious that
sales of the barrier had beendriven by my father and my
sister-in-law.
Um, and so, you know, you'reonly ever as good as your last
(06:10):
sales record, and that can hanglike an albatross around your
neck, which can be veryunfortunate.
Um, particularly because yourskills as a writer are maturing
as you develop and as time goesby and with each novel you are
hopefully.
And really actually gettingbetter and better.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so with this thirdmanuscript, publishers weren't
(06:30):
interested in it.
I let it sit on a, on a laptopfor, for many, many years.
But now coming back into thepublic space, I.
The novel seems to be moretopical, more relevant than
ever.
Um, and we are adaptingUnfinished Business and the
character of Ellie Harper.
So my returning protagonist is aCIA agent with a, a background
(06:52):
in human rights law.
We're bringing her back as areturning series and a returning
potentially a TV adaptation.
And in that.
Our research for a book that wasset actually in 2009 and written
eight years ago.
The research is all contemporarynews because everything that is
happening or happened in 2009and happened when I wrote it, is
(07:16):
continuing to happen, which isterrifying.
Really.
Really.
It is terrifying and it'sreally, I think it's, you know,
it's the universal that'slocated in the specific and the
culturally and politicallyspecific, the geographically
specific.
That speaks to universal themesand our inability, clearly to
learn from our mistakes.
Natasha Rai (07:35):
Yeah.
So how do you kind of keep, forwant of a better word, maybe
hope or the will to keep goingbecause you, you're, you're
right about at times heavy.
Or again, want a better word,serious topics.
How does, how do you keep goingwhen what you're writing is
almost mirroring what ishappening in our reality?
Shankari Chandran (07:57):
I think, um, excuse me.
I'm trying to win myself offchocolate, and that seems to,
I'm trying to find substituteslike pickled ginger, so.
It's a good question, Tash, andI think that I'm inherently
optimistic.
(08:17):
I do, I I do feel that on mostdays I have a sense that if we
just keep trying, we'll be okay.
Mm-hmm.
And at the very least, all I cancontrol is my own best efforts.
That's true.
Um, and to some degree.
The children that I've broughtinto the world have some very
limited control over them.
(08:38):
Increasingly less control than Iused to have.
And so I feel a, a degree ofoptimism and a degree of
commitment to putting in thehard work, like a really high
degree of commitment to puttingin the hard work, whether it be
with my writing or just whetherit be in how I try to live my
life.
And then other days, you know,I'll smash a family sized pack
(08:58):
of mini violet crumbles.
Natasha Rai (09:00):
Excellent.
Yeah.
And just sometimes that's theonly way
Shankari Chandran (09:04):
I think.
So, you know, four hours onNetflix later, and, um, yeah,
that's how, that's how I manage.
But I think writing, for me isincredibly therapeutic and it's
really part of that process ofmaintaining hope.
I write a lot of my anger,frustration, my fears, my
existential anxieties, myconcerns about injustices.
(09:25):
I work through a lot of that inmy writing.
And although I don't think thatI am necessarily creating social
change through my writing, I dofeel that I am creating
connection through my writing.
Mm-hmm.
And I think connection isnecessary before we can even
contemplate change.
(09:46):
And so to that extent.
I think there is enormous valuein any of us writing, um, and
value in what I write or what Itry to write about and the way
that I try to connect withpeople through that writing.
Natasha Rai (10:00):
For sure.
And especially when you saidabout anyone, you know,
everyone's writing becausepeople are writing different
stories or differentperspectives, but actually
there's always a commonality inthe human experience, right?
So even if somebody's writingabout.
A culture or an experience oreven a genre they're not
familiar with.
There are points of connectionalways into the story or a
(10:21):
character or an experience thatcharacter is undergoing or going
through always.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so you mentioned earlier TheBarrier.
Is that your first novel inAustralia?
Shankari Chandran (10:32):
Yes, it was the first one that was published
in Australia, but it wasactually my second novel that I
wrote.
Natasha Rai (10:37):
Yes.
Because you've had, uh.
Is interesting.
The right word.
Start to your publication,
Shankari Chandran (10:43):
can use any word you wanna use.
Tash, you're a wonderful,brilliant writer.
I'd be honored to receive anyword from you.
Natasha Rai (10:51):
Stop it.
Anyway.
Um, I'm curious about yourpublishing journey, uh, because
I know, and one of the things wetalk about a lot on this podcast
is how you can come to a pointof getting traditionally
published.
And there are so many ways in.
But I know that yours was also abit of a different beginning to
where you are now.
Shankari Chandran (11:11):
Yes, definitely.
Um, when I started out I had, Iwrote a manuscript called Song
of the Sun God, which was aboutthree generations of Sri Lankan,
Tamil Australian women, and thechoices that they make to
survive Sri Lanka Civil War.
So it is in part set in SriLanka and in part set in
Australia.
(11:32):
And the feedback that I got whenI queried it with agents and
publishers was that it was wellwritten, interesting characters,
strong language.
Um.
But that the novel wouldn't sellin Australia, that it wasn't
Australian enough to bepublished here.
And this was some, um, 10 yearsago.
Natasha Rai (11:51):
Yeah.
I was just about to ask you whatyear, so you wrote Unfinished
Business in 2017, you said.
So had you already written Songof the Sun?
God, at that point?
Shankari Chandran (12:01):
Point I had, yeah.
I had, yes.
So I had written it.
And then spent a year strugglingto find a publisher in
Australia.
Mm-hmm.
And eventually, uh, sent it to apublisher in Sri Lanka and
published it with him.
Mm-hmm.
And that was a very smallpublishing house.
And you know, it's interesting.
(12:21):
My husband and I both have verymixed and different.
Perspectives on that particularpublisher because from her's,
from my husband's perspective,he feels that that was the
getting that book published waswhat unlocked me to.
Okay.
'cause I really, there's thisthing, particularly with your
first novel, I feel I was so,you know, it was really my first
(12:43):
born and I couldn't see pastanything in life until that
novel had been published.
And I was very new, um, andignorant of the publishing
industry.
And what I eventually realizedthat is that publishing can take
months or years.
Whether it be traditional ornon-traditional publishing, it
(13:06):
can take a very, very long timeand sometimes not at all.
Natasha Rai (13:10):
Mm.
Shankari Chandran (13:10):
And the key for me that I eventually learned
was to, to keep writing.
So whenever I have writtensomething, I am almost
immediately, I will allow myselfto rest, but I'm almost
immediately searching my mindand the world for the next story
because the pipeline of work andthe body of work.
(13:32):
It can take, I mean, it can takea book two years, even after you
sign a publishing contract toget it onto shelves.
So you want to have your nextnovel or research ideas, crappy
first drafts in motion.
You should not be waiting.
(13:52):
To see that book on a shelfbefore you then begin the next
step.
Now, in reality, writers, onceyou start writing, you love
writing so much, you can't stop.
Right.
Well, I certainly, once I began,I became addicted and that was
it.
I developed a very unhealthyrelationship with my laptop, um,
but nothing illegal, restassured.
Um, but I think at, so I will,I'm unlikely to ever stop
(14:17):
writing, even if I stoppublishing, but with my first
novel.
Everything felt so contingent onseeing that novel published.
Everything was after I getpublished or after I get an
agent, and actually you can'tlive life like that because you
have no control over that.
So with this particular firstnovel, my husband is delighted
(14:39):
that it went to the Sri Lankanpublisher and he was able to
unlock effectively what becamethe rest of my career.
That experience was morechallenging because it was a
small publisher.
I did not know enough, um, aboutmyself or have enough confidence
within myself to reallynegotiate that contract, so
(15:01):
there was no negotiation.
I know so much more now.
I know that there are standardterms that are on the ASA
website.
I will settle for nothing lessthan that.
Those terms as they are, requirea huge amount of industry
advocacy on behalf of writers.
You know, they're not great forwriters, but they are what they
are.
Mm-hmm.
And that's the industrypractice.
(15:21):
I won't accept less than that,but for my first publishing
contract I did.
Mm-hmm.
And I spent years with thisparticular small publisher
trying to navigate thatrelationship and.
In retrospect, and I've saidthis before in Emily Maguire's
fabulous class, which I thinknow Ashley runs the year of the
novel, that I, in retrospect,felt better off with no
(15:46):
publisher than a bad publisher.
But with my first novel that wasvery hard to understand and very
hard to see.
Natasha Rai (15:57):
And it's, it's also very hard to have confidence in
that statement when you aredesperate to have your first
novel out in the world.
Shankari Chandran (16:03):
100%.
There is nothing like thedesperation of that, of wanting,
yearning for that first novel tobe published.
Natasha Rai (16:12):
Exactly.
Shankari Chandran (16:13):
So after that novel went to Sri Lanka was
published there, I wrote TheBarrier, but I, I'd finished The
Barrier and at some point in thesort of querying process of.
Of Song of the Sun God and I wasgetting this feedback, uh, about
how the novel wouldn't sell inAustralia.
And so I took The Barrier, whichwas almost completed, and I
changed the protagonist from abrown, south Asian, um, sort of
(16:39):
secret agent, got a thing forsecret agents.
Natasha Rai (16:43):
You do
Shankari Chandran (16:43):
And, and I changed them from brown to white
and that novel found anAustralian publisher quite
quickly and that novel went outinto the world.
And again, it's interesting whatyou learn in retrospect or from
that experience, but I was onlyneed, I was really only at that
(17:04):
early learning stage of how doesone build a brand?
I.
What is social media?
Um, you know, where do I need toshow up at?
Mm.
How do I sell myself?
Natasha Rai (17:17):
Yeah.
All the building blocks oflongevity as well.
Shankari Chandran (17:20):
Exactly.
And, but as a writer, I'm, youknow, deeply introverted.
I, by nature would happily stayin my pajamas in my room all
day, just writing books andoccasionally throwing food at
the children.
Natasha Rai (17:32):
And I think your, um, out of office even says that
I'm in my pajamas.
Shankari Chandran (17:36):
Yes, yes, it does.
Don't disturb me.
Natasha Rai (17:39):
Exactly.
Shankari Chandran (17:41):
Um, so I take my writing very seriously and I
just, you know, had to learn howto.
See that sort of businessdevelopment side for what it is,
it's business development andyou have to do it to secure the
longevity of your career, or atleast to assist the longevity of
your career.
Natasha Rai (18:00):
So on the way, as you were learning these lessons,
were you learning them throughthat kind of direct experience?
Or at that point had you startedto cultivate a community or an
agent or, yeah.
Shankari Chandran (18:10):
Um.
I put everything really, I wasvery fortunate.
I had, I had an agent with me,um, from the time that I
finished Song of the.
I was so fortunate to become amember of writing New South
Wales.
I loved their work enough toeventually join their board.
(18:31):
Um, but at the time I was anemerging writer, not even
emerging, and I benefitedenormously, not just from their
courses, but from the communitythat they have at, at Callan
Park, at the, the actuallocation of writing New South
Wales.
Mm-hmm.
Writing is very solitary andliterary fiction I think is
particularly solitary and we'renot writers of literary fiction
(18:54):
are probably even more.
Solitary than the averagewriter.
Whereas the crime writers, forexample, are just, they seem to
be partying hard.
They're always together, they'realways going on writing retreats
together.
It's, it's just a thing, right?
Whereas for me, I'm like, thelast thing I want is to be on a
retreat with anybody.
Um, the, and so I look at theirsort of Instagram sites.
(19:19):
Uh, with confusion and, um, andexcitement for them because
they're clearly so excited byeach other.
Um, but we still, as literaryfiction writers.
Need a, a community, needpeople, need friends.
Because I found it was onlyother writers that understood
the sheer agony of what I wasgoing through.
(19:42):
Yeah.
And the insecurity of it.
The soul destroying self-esteem,crushing reality of reject after
rejection.
The way that the rest of theworld views your writing?
It is and has been for manyyears.
My work, I know, has beenregarded as a hobby.
(20:04):
You know, Shankari's got thisquirky little hobby.
Um, it's the, the, thedefinition of career.
Work in our contemporary societyand perhaps in all societies, is
largely ascribed to thoseactivities that generate an
income.
Writing does not generate anincome for a very long time, and
(20:25):
when it does, most writers, eventhe successful ones, you know,
considered commerciallysuccessful or awarded ones,
don't make enough to.
It is, it takes a very long timefor the, the task, the activity
of writing to be reflected backto you as work, and that's hard
(20:51):
to carry.
You know, I come from a familyand a community where work is
everything.
You are really valued for yourwork ethic and your capacity to
work and your and output, andyour ability to take care of
your family writing.
Not understood and does not meetmany of those KPIs.
Natasha Rai (21:10):
No, it doesn't.
Shankari Chandran (21:11):
Um, and yet it is this thing that is so
profoundly, deeply,intrinsically important to me.
It's the thing by which I definemyself really, or even if it's
not necessarily a definitionthat feels quite grandiose.
It's the thing that gives mesuch purpose and joy and it's
(21:34):
not understood.
Really, except for otherwriters.
And so that writing communityand being able to say, does this
look right to you?
Does this agreement look rightto you?
What should I be doing?
You are going to that festival.
Should I be going to thatfestival?
And the writing community issuch a beautiful community.
Natasha Rai (21:55):
It really is.
Shankari Chandran (21:56):
We help each other.
Mm-hmm.
You know, we, we recommend eachother's books.
We read each other's drafts.
We get each other invited tothings.
We social media, the shit out ofeach other because we, we know
that we rise together.
It isn't a, um, you know, it's afinite pie as such.
Natasha Rai (22:17):
Exactly.
'cause the more that we helpcome in and get that
recognition, the more spacethere is.
Yes.
The more and more stories we cantell.
Shankari Chandran (22:27):
Yeah, we're breaking and expanding those
horizons together and that'sreally, really rewarding.
I love, my favorite part of awriter's festival is the green
room.
Um, I mean, I just sort of showup just for the green room and
then, and then leave, but it'sprobably unethical.
Um, so yes.
So it's a wonderful community.
Natasha Rai (22:48):
Yes.
Shankari Chandran (22:48):
And by making lots mistakes the other way.
Natasha Rai (22:52):
And also the important thing about making
mistakes is they don't have tobe catastrophic.
'cause you know, a lot ofemerging writers, like even I
remember, it wasn't that longago that I was terrified that if
I submit to a publisher or anagent and the, it's not ready,
or I just get one shot andthat's it, I've ruined it
forever.
And that's not actually true.
(23:12):
Unless you're, unless you're,you know, you're really mean to
them or you are whatever.
Like if you're behaving badly,that's different.
But if you're just having a, ago or you're trying, then
nothing is really thatcatastrophic that you can do.
That means the door is shutforever.
Right?
Shankari Chandran (23:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I think there's, so,particularly now, it's been,
I've been writing since, um,2012 when I started Song of the
Sun God in 2012.
And my career is very differentfrom other people's.
I, I look at the sort of debutbestseller with a combination
of, um, admiration and envybecause it's a, a much faster
(23:51):
track to a better place.
And at the same time, that's notbeen my journey.
My journey is my journey.
And it's taken 13 years.
I started writing my first novelexactly in April, 2012.
It's April, 2025 now.
Natasha Rai (24:09):
Yeah.
Shankari Chandran (24:09):
So that is 13 years of writing.
Um, and it's been hard and, andgreat.
Gisela Ervin-Ward (24:23):
Hi, I'm Gisela Ervin-Ward and my upper
middle grade novel, True South,published by Midnight Sun
Publishing is out now.
It's not every day you crashyour boat into a house.
As Nell South Nicholas hung overthe gun over her sailboat to
inspect the damage.
She wondered why that day had tobe today when Nell crashes a
sailboat into a submerged housein the reservoir, the last thing
she expects to find is treasureand a secret that could change
(24:44):
everything.
12-year-old Nell lives on a farmin Central Victoria where two
things are certain.
Sailing is a favorite thing inthe world, and the Souths and
the Wilsons absolutely do notget along.
So in the Sunken House, turnsout to be Nell's family's old
home, and it might havesomething to do with the missing
family heirlooms that both theSouths and the Wilsons want.
The only person who can helpsolve the mystery is Charlie
(25:05):
Wilson, aka the enemy and thingsget complicated fast.
As Nell and Charlie warily teamup, dig into the past and hunt
for the missing heirlooms, oldand new secrets threatened to
break their fragile alliance.
Friendships get tested, familyhistory gets messy, and Nell
starts wondering if being aSouth really means what she
thought it did.
Can two girls caught in themiddle of a feud change the
(25:27):
story or the adults ensure thatthey end up repeating it?
With plenty of the type ofaction that's part of rural
kids' lives.
True South explores themes ofcoming to terms with the past
young teenagers navigatingfriendship changes for the first
time.
Sailing, living in ruralAustralia, and children's
connection to family andlandscape.
Great.
For nine or 13 year olds.
True South by Gisela Ervin-Wardis out now.
Natasha Rai (25:53):
So then you, we were up to The Barrier and you
said, you mentioned earlier thatit.
Didn't sell well particularlywell?
No.
Okay.
Shankari Chandran (26:00):
It did not, it was optioned for television.
Um, they had a few cracks atpitching it the producers and
then COVID hit and so thenplague dramas, unless you were
rewatching contagion with MattDamon Plague dramas were sort
of, you know, put on pause,which was fine, but I.
(26:23):
Then wrote I in the end, youknow, as we're sort of trucking
along, I wrote UnfinishedBusiness.
Mm-hmm.
That, um, did not get very farwith publishers because of the
sales of The Barrier.
At that point, I really shouldhave stopped writing
professionally, I suppose I.
Natasha Rai (26:40):
Well, I'm glad you didn't.
Shankari Chandran (26:41):
Sensible.
Had I been more sensible?
Um, but I did think that mywriting, my publishing career
was over.
I did think that for me,publishing was probably done and
that I would have to come toterms with that.
And so I had a sense of griefaround trying to make myself let
go of this dream.
Career, not so much the dream ofwriting because you'll always
(27:03):
write, I will always write, butthe dream of a career of being a
published author.
And so then I thought, well,I'll, I'll write the book.
I've always.
Wanted to write.
I'd been toying with this ideaof a book in a nursing home
where I used to go visit mygrandmother.
Um, and my beautiful was stillalive actually, when I was
(27:24):
writing it.
I started it in 2019.
I thought I would writesomething a bit more whimsical,
and then I just kept gettingpulled back to the idea of
exploring race.
Yeah.
And I figured no one's going topublish this novel.
Just my dad, my sister-in-law,and my cousins will read it.
Therefore I can write freely andI can actually write about race
(27:44):
in the way that I think and feeland have, and have observed
race.
Um, and so I wrote Chai Time atCinnamon Gardens, and that was a
really, that was a, a careerchanging novel for me.
Natasha Rai (27:57):
Yeah.
Shankari Chandran (27:57):
Um, and you know, Tash, every novel that
I've written, so by that, thatwas actually my fourth
manuscript.
Natasha Rai (28:04):
Mm.
Shankari Chandran (28:06):
Manuscript two, three, and four I.
When I finished writing them, Iwould lean into the manuscript.
Please, please.
That brings Song of the Sun GodHome.
Because what I really wanted inmy heart was for this first
novel that was about our historyand our culture and our war and
(28:28):
our people.
I wanted that novel published inmy home, Australia.
Mm.
So I sent Chai Time into theworld with the same gentle
prayer.
Natasha Rai (28:39):
Yeah.
Shankari Chandran (28:40):
And Robert Watkins at Ultimo picked it up,
um, within a month of it beingqueried.
And he has been a dream to workwith.
And together we have sincepublished Chai time at Cinnamon
Gardens.
He then republished, he boughtthe rights to Song of the Sun
(29:01):
God and Republished Song of theSun God.
He published Unfinished Businessbefore that, obviously Safe
Haven.
Um, and I will republish TheBarrier with him when I have the
time and energy mm-hmm.
To change my protagonist fromwhite back to brown.
Natasha Rai (29:21):
Okay.
And probably listeners, and justfor listeners who are unaware of
how big, how significant ChaiTime at Cinnamon Gardens has
been for you, it won the MilesFranklin Award in 2023, and that
was huge and congratulationsagain.
That must have been, and itbrought Song of the Sun God,
home, as you say.
(29:41):
Mm-hmm.
It must have, I imagine, justopened so many new opportunities
for you.
Is that what it felt like?
Shankari Chandran (29:49):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It, it definitely felt like thatand still feels like that.
I still feel so grateful to thatnovel, um, and to the path that
it's taken in the way that ithas then opened up the rest of
my career or, or opened up acareer for me.
Natasha Rai (30:07):
Mm.
Shankari Chandran (30:07):
Um, and so.
Chai Time at Cinnamon Gardenshas been optioned for
television.
We're working on the adaptationwith Shakthidharan, um, and
Mithila Gupta and AquariusFilms.
Shakthidharan wrote Jungle andthe Sea.
Natasha Rai (30:23):
Yes.
I'm a huge fan of his as, as I'mof Mithila Gupta too.
Shankari Chandran (30:26):
Yes, yes, yes.
I too, I'm a big fan of both.
Nearly fell off my chair whenthey were the suggested
creatives.
Um.
And so we're working on thattogether.
And Shakthi is lead writer.
Mithila is story producer.
Amazing.
And it's been a really greatexperience so far.
Aquarius Films has beenbeautiful to work with and I
(30:47):
think it will, you know, thesethings just take their own time.
So that's, that's that project.
And then obviously, um, well,not obviously, but Unfinished
Business is also being adaptedfor television with Photo Play.
And the, the, the profile onChai Time at Cinnamon Gardens
(31:09):
has this halo effect on my othernovels and my other potential
adaptations.
And so there has been again.
A much bigger spotlight on thepotential TV adaptation of
Unfinished Business and a verysignificant and helpful amount
of interest in it.
Natasha Rai (31:27):
And you know, Shankari, it just goes to show,
and I'm not talking about, youknow, if you write whatever you
want, you'll necessarily win anaward or open doors like that.
But what that speaks to me is inthat moment of that kind of that
rollercoaster where you're rightat the bottom and you thought,
I'm done with this career, butI'm going to keep riding.
In a way it frees you to writethe story that was felt true at
(31:50):
the time, and it was spoke toyou in a very different way
because.
Sometimes writers when they'retrying to get published might
follow.
It's not a trap, but they mightfollow a part that they feel
they have to write in a certainway or for a certain audience as
opposed to writing forthemselves.
And actually, I.
Writing for yourself brings youthe greatest pleasure, firstly
(32:13):
and maybe more likely to findreaders who it resonates with
because you're writing from agreater place of truth.
Shankari Chandran (32:20):
I think that's exactly right.
I do.
I think there's a lot of noisewhen you are writing.
There can be, and there can be alot of external pressure and a
lot of worse internal pressure,and it's easy to forget.
The joy of just putting one worddown in front of another and
pushing yourself to producesomething that you are really
(32:42):
proud of.
That's the best that it can be,and the best that you can be.
Um, and to sort of still yourmind and all those voices for
long enough to, to hear and seethe truth and, and give words to
that.
Natasha Rai (32:55):
Mm-hmm.
Amazing.
And, and so for you, Shankari,like once Chai Time was out in
the world and it was starting toget all this recognition, were
you able to write, like, is thatwhen you wrote Safe Haven or
Shankari Chandran (33:06):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
So this is why I think with my,with my last three novels,
Unfinished Business, then goingback Safe Haven and then going
back Chai Time, I think there isa mistake and belief that I am
prolific and that I am veryfast.
I'm not.
I wrote Chai Time at CinnamonGardens and submitted it in, um,
(33:26):
at the end of 2020.
Mm-hmm.
So, and it came out some 13months later.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
So mm-hmm.
Came out at the beginning of2022.
It won the Miles Franklin 18months later.
Yeah.
In that 18 months, I hadproduced.
A crappy first draft of SafeHaven.
So by the time everyone justsaid, who is this and what's
(33:50):
this book about?
Because 18 months of Chai Timebeing out in the world, and it
had actually done really well interms of sales and readership,
but it's nothing compared towhat the Miles Franklin did for
it.
Mm-hmm.
So it looked like a new book tomany people.
It wasn't a new book, but itlooked like a new book.
Yeah.
Because of the way the awardcycle works and then the way the
(34:11):
publicity works.
And then some, what is it?
Nine months after Chai Timewins, Safe Haven comes out, but
that book had already been wellon its way in the two years
before its publication.
Then Chai, then Safe Haven comesout, and then seven months later
(34:31):
unfinished Business comes out.
Natasha Rai (34:32):
Yes.
So this is what I wanted to comewritten for 2017.
So this is the bit I wanted tocome back to.
Was there a, like, was that adeliberate kind of choice that
Ultimo and you made together?
Shankari Chandran (34:44):
No.
So the way that that worked wasthat when Robert and I, um, when
Robert and I first starteddating, um.
Bought, um, the rights toUnfinished Business, but the
focus was on getting Chai Timeat Cinnamon Gardens out.
(35:05):
I had talked to him about aliterary novel I was interested
in writing, which later becameSafe Haven.
Unfinished Business just sort ofsat there in a, in a queue.
And I think quite rightly,publishers want to see how your
work goes before they send threebooks out into the world in one
go.
Right?
So, um.
(35:26):
There would've been absolutelyan important element of that.
And in the meantime, Audible hadalso bought the content of
Unfinished Business as anAudible original.
And what that means is, which Iwas new to it, is writers are
writing content for Audible asaudible originals, which means
(35:50):
that they go straight to audio.
They appear as audio first.
And then Audible owned by Amazonsets the terms of that and the
terms will be,
Natasha Rai (36:00):
oh, I did not know that.
Shankari Chandran (36:01):
Yeah, and the terms will be that you are
allowed to publish that book ifyou have held back your
publishing rights, which I had.
You are allowed to publish thatbook.
So six months after the audiocomes out.
So the audible comes out firstas an original because it hasn't
(36:21):
been seen anywhere before.
So it's called an original.
Natasha Rai (36:24):
Mm-hmm.
Shankari Chandran (36:24):
And then at least six months must pass and
you can bring it out in bookform.
And so just the way that thatcadence worked is what you are
seeing now.
Natasha Rai (36:33):
Ah, I see.
Got it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Shankari Chandran (36:36):
So, so Unfinished Business came out in
February.
Of 2024.
Sorry.
Yes, 2024.
So at one point it looked likeI'd released two books within
two months of each other.
I was like, please, everyone,calm down.
This book has been out for eightyears on my laptop.
Yeah, this other book took twoyears at least to, to write.
(36:59):
Um, and I loved working withAudible, the commissioning
editor there Radhiya Chowdrey.
Fabulous commissioning editor,and she was the one who really
supported me with UnfinishedBusiness to take the
protagonist.
Remember that was my thirdmanuscript written after the
(37:20):
Barrier.
Natasha Rai (37:20):
That's right.
Yes.
Shankari Chandran (37:21):
Originally I wrote her as a white woman.
Mm-hmm.
Rathi, or Radhiya Chowdrey fromAudible.
When she read the content, shesaid, I love it.
I can't help but feel that yourprotagonist is actually a brown
woman trapped in a white body.
Natasha Rai (37:37):
Very perceptive.
Shankari Chandran (37:38):
Very perceptive, and, and just so
like a real kind of case studyfor why you want to have diverse
voices at the table, makingcuratorial and commissioning
decisions why you want diversevoices in places of power.
And that was a wonderfulpartnership and.
(37:58):
Changed.
Um, Ellie really back to who shewas intended to be all along,
and it just works so much morebeautifully as.
Natasha Rai (38:08):
Oh, that's so wonderful.
And you know, uh, since winningthe Miles Franklin has it also
then had an impact on, as inthat overseas distribution as
well?
Shankari Chandran (38:18):
Has that?
Not yet.
Not yet.
So this is really interesting.
Tash, I would've hoped for, um,the Miles Franklin to open the
door to internationalpublication of that book at
least.
Um.
But it has had a limited run, alimited publication in the UK
(38:40):
through an imprint, or in factthrough Ultimo Press UK.
Um, and what we are hoping forthough is a wider distribution
in the UK and um, an Americanpublication.
It has been translated intoFinnish.
It's being, yes, I've had greatreviews from Finland.
(39:03):
It's being translated intoArabic, um, that has not been
completed yet.
It's currently being translatedinto Chinese.
And I've met my beautifulChinese translator who works at
the University of WesternSydney, Jing Han, amazing woman.
And so that will take as long asit takes, I guess, to, to
(39:23):
translate and to publish inChina.
But it has not yet had anAmerican or a a, a proper UK
deal.
Um, so I'm hoping with my nextnovel that maybe that will make
its way into.
Natasha Rai (39:40):
How surprising.
Finnish.
Shankari Chandran (39:42):
Yes.
Finish.
Yeah, I know.
I mean, it makes me laughbecause all the sort of
academics in my family are like,yes, that makes total sense
because the Tamil language isactually connected to the pheno
Hungarian language.
Like okay.
Um, that's exactly why the Finswant to
Natasha Rai (39:57):
Exactly.
Shankari Chandran (39:57):
Read the story.
Um, and you mentioned Shankariearlier about diverse voices.
I imagine just like I'm startingto get asked, you get asked a
lot about diversity, theimportance of amplifying voices,
um, and almost sometimes beingput up as a spokesperson.
Hmm.
Natasha Rai (40:17):
How do you cope, manage, navigate that?
Do you like getting asked thatquestion?
Shankari Chandran (40:23):
Um, I don't like it anymore.
I was initially okay about beingasked that question because it's
a legitimate question and it'san important question.
The question exists because aproblem exists.
And those perhaps best place toanswer it are those with lived
experience of the challenges ofpublishing, uh, in know a white
(40:47):
dominant environment.
So I understand the need for thequestion and the importance of
the answer and the importance ofaddressing the problem.
And the problem is plural,interconnected, as they are, are
being addressed slowly butsurely, in particular because.
Of publishers like RobertWatkins who are willing to
publish and who recognize theenormous quality of that
(41:10):
literature.
Not just the value of diversity,but the fact that the literature
is incredibly good, um, and thata cultural landscape or a
literary landscape that reflectsour cultural landscape makes
sense.
Um, it also is changing becausewriters from non-white
(41:33):
backgrounds are continuing towrite despite the setbacks that
they receive that are different,and I would suggest greater than
many of the setbacks that whitewriters experience, which is not
to say that they do notexperience setbacks.
Um, and I do think those areally important.
(41:55):
Of class and socioeconomicbackground and privilege around
writing.
So I can afford to change mycorporate career to give myself
time to write, and that is aneconomic privilege afforded to
me by generations of family andto my own struggle and education
(42:19):
and employment.
That is not something thateveryone has.
So I think when we talk aboutdiversity, we need to continue
to talk about diversity.
We need to continue to thoughalso talk about the ways in
which the lack of diversityexists or presents itself.
It's not just color or gender.
Natasha Rai (42:39):
Yeah, I agree.
Shankari Chandran (42:40):
It's economics.
It's the loss of things.
Um, I think we also, I know whatit is about that question.
Part of me.
Is unwilling to concede thepremise because diversity
suggests, um, that we arebringing difference into
(43:00):
something that's fundamentallyhomogenous.
And I see that we are, I seethat there is a dominant
narrative and a dominant group.
I also think that.
My lived experience, my norms,what I write about, what I live,
what I imagine my imagination ismy norm and it's my normal.
(43:21):
And so when I go to my friend asa child, my friend Kate Kelly's
house, and I'm presented with asteak, three vegetables and a
knife and fork, like, wow, youguys are so diverse because that
is different.
Natasha Rai (43:33):
Yeah.
Shankari Chandran (43:34):
To my experience and how we conceive
of the world is different.
So not just how we eat or whatwe eat.
So I think there's somethingeven in the question that I
would love to unpack.
Um, not right now on yourpodcast, but you've asked me how
(43:54):
do I deal with the questions.
I answer them, I answer themhonestly, and I answer them
sincerely.
I understand where they comefrom.
It's a heavy weight to carry tofeel that I am.
Um.
I mean, there's a, there isactually a growing group of
writers of color massivelyquickly growing, and they're all
really articulate and eloquenton these issues and many more
(44:19):
issues, right?
Writers from.
Different backgrounds shouldnot, should not only be asked
about their background, theyshould be asked about, you know,
their view on affordablehousing.
Um, so I think thankfully thereis a growing body and I am less
of the representative than Iused to have to be.
Natasha Rai (44:38):
Mm-hmm.
Shankari Chandran (44:39):
Um, I never really accepted I that mantle
comfortably.
Not just because I'mintroverted, but because I
recognize my own privilege and Idon't want to be.
Shunted into a place wherepeople are asking me questions
about an experience that isactually much broader and deeper
(45:00):
and nuanced than what I canspeak to because I can only
speak to what I've lived.
Natasha Rai (45:06):
Yeah.
And what you know.
Exactly.
And what I know.
Yes.
Yeah.
Um, and I think just on thatpoint as well, the more stories
that we have that are told,we're also reaching more readers
because even.
Our lives, the people around ushave changed even in the last
10, 15, 20 years.
(45:26):
Mm-hmm.
So the readership is changingtoo.
And even readers who havetraditionally read one type or
another type or have fa favoritewriters, they are hungry for new
stories and new voices.
Like, it's not just some ideaof, well, here is this other,
other group of people who mightbe interested.
It's like everyone.
Mm-hmm.
A lot of people are interested.
(45:47):
Both established and the oneswho haven't yet had access.
Shankari Chandran (45:51):
Yeah, and there's a whole conversation on
that to be had separately aboutwhether the readership, I think
the readership is changingbecause.
The readership of the world isdiversifying itself, it's
migration.
Global migration necessarilymeans the markets that once
looked a particular way now lookdifferent.
Natasha Rai (46:09):
Hmm.
Shankari Chandran (46:09):
At the same time, I think intelligent,
curious people have alwayssought to read a range of
literature, and there is a, youknow, an argument to be made
that the curators of culturewere the ones that didn't
actually get that.
Natasha Rai (46:26):
Yeah.
Shankari Chandran (46:27):
Yeah,
Natasha Rai (46:28):
I hear you.
Um, so I'm a little bit shockedthat we are nearly out of time
because I'm having such a greattime talking to you.
Shankari Chandran (46:38):
No, this is why we should go out for a
drink, not a podcast.
Natasha Rai (46:41):
I agree.
Let's make that happen.
Um, but just as a finalquestion, given as you said
that, you know, when you lookedat your calendar and it, it's,
it's 13 years of.
Writing practice.
What have you learned, or fromeverything you've learned,
everything you've experiencedalong the way, do you have any
advice or top tips for emergingwriters now?
Shankari Chandran (47:03):
I would say first and foremost, just keep
writing.
Keep your pipeline and body ofwork going.
Don't stop.
Uh, and I would also say braceyourself.
'cause it is challenging and itdoesn't, I know that you'll,
they'll know that it's notcoming easily after their first
(47:25):
sort of 10 rejections.
You, you get the sense it's notgonna come easily, right?
Natasha Rai (47:29):
Mm-hmm.
Shankari Chandran (47:29):
And I don't mean this to sound motherhood
and apple pie, but I do mean itsincerely.
It isn't easy, but it is worthit.
My advice would be just keepwriting, keep going.
Don't give up.
Don't listen to the noise.
Listen to yourself.
Sit down in front of the blankpage and keep going.
Natasha Rai (47:48):
Great advice.
Thank you.
Shankari Chandran (47:50):
Thank you.
Thank you for the opportunity totalk to you.
Tina Strachan (47:56):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new eps drop.
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This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover
by your host, Natasha Rai.
I'll be bringing you even moredebut and season authors as they
talk about their path topublication.
Madeleine Cleary (00:26):
The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters, which it's recorded
on and pays respect to theirelders past, present, and
emerging.
Natasha Rai (00:34):
Shankari Chandran is an Australian Tamil lawyer
and author of Chai Time atCinnamon Gardens, Song of the
Sun God, The Barrier, Safe Havenand Unfinished Business.
Her fiction exploresdispossession and the creation
of community, and in 2023, shewon the Miles Franklin Literary
Award for Chai time at CinnamonGardens.
Shankari has spent over twodecades working as a lawyer in
(00:56):
the social justice field onnational and international
program design.
She's based in Sydney,Australia, where she lives with
her husband and children.
Hi Shankari Chandran, welcome tothe book Deal podcast.
Shankari Chandran (01:08):
Hi, Tash.
How are you?
Natasha Rai (01:10):
I'm very well.
How are you?
Shankari Chandran (01:11):
Very well, thank you.
Excited to be here with you.
Natasha Rai (01:14):
Thank you.
Um, so you've just been at theNewcastle Writers Festival this
weekend and uh, you were talkingabout a sense of place.
Is that right in your panel?
Shankari Chandran (01:23):
That's right.
With Jock Serong and AshleyKalagian Blunt.
Natasha Rai (01:27):
Yeah.
And I'm curious about how thatshows up in your latest novel
Unfinished Business.
'Cause this is your fifth novel,is that right?
Shankari Chandran (01:37):
It is my fifth novel.
Yes.
Yes.
Natasha Rai (01:40):
And it came out four months ago or a bit.
Shankari Chandran (01:43):
Yeah.
End of December, 2024.
That's, so it's really a sort of2025 release.
Natasha Rai (01:48):
Yeah.
Okay.
And how has that been?
I, I wanna talk about that in amoment, but how has that last
few months been for you?
Since it's been out?
Shankari Chandran (01:56):
It's been good.
We did a, a quieter launch thanusual because I'd launched, um,
un I'd launched Safe Haven, myfourth novel last year in May.
So that was May, 2024.
And then Unfinished Business wasDecember, 2024.
And, uh.
I figured booksellers would besick of seeing me and was really
(02:17):
happy to just go very low key,mostly online.
Um, and then quite a big, um, adbuy campaign for this particular
book.
So there've been posters and soon, which I've never had before.
It's super exciting, uh, to seeme, you know, in public spaces
like that.
Natasha Rai (02:36):
Yeah, and I actually wanna come back to that
in terms of that length of timebetween Safe haven and
Unfinished Business.
Um, but for now, how do you feelabout giving me your elevator
pitch for Unfinished Business?
Shankari Chandran (02:49):
Oh my God.
I got asked to do this at thefestival and do you know, it's
actually been eight years sinceI wrote this book between
writing it and publishing it, sowe can talk about that more
later.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yep, definitely.
And I've written many books inbetween.
And therefore, um, well not thatmany, but you know, a few.
And therefore I have, Ifrequently just forget what I've
done.
(03:09):
Um, but I shall do my best.
Unfinished Business is set in2009 at the end of Sri Lanka's
Civil War.
Amina Fernando, a journalist isexecuted on the streets of
Colombo.
No one knows who did it or why.
Was it the Sri Lankangovernment?
(03:29):
Was it the Chinese government orwas it the Tamil Tigers?
Ellie Harper.
A CIA agent is sent from the US.
Back to Sri Lanka where she waspart of a mission that had
failed many years before she hassent back to work with those
people that she let down toinvestigate the murder of a of
(03:53):
Amina Fernando.
In doing so, she goes on ajourney of redemption and comes
to respect this journalist thatshe never knew and uncover an
international weaponsconspiracy.
So Unfinished Business is aboutthe way that superpowers rising,
superpowers and agingsuperpowers play God in the
(04:18):
lives of other countries andother communities, and the
devastating impact that this canhave.
Natasha Rai (04:25):
That sounds amazing.
What?
What a great pitch.
And also,
Shankari Chandran (04:29):
thank you.
Thank you.
Natasha Rai (04:30):
Sadly.
Shankari Chandran (04:30):
Did you see that I could keep, I kept
forgetting.
Natasha Rai (04:33):
No, I couldn't see that.
Shankari Chandran (04:34):
The journalist's name.
I was like, God, what's her nameagain?
Natasha Rai (04:38):
No, but I was just gonna say it's also sadly re
still relevant, the idea ofsuperpowers and the influence
they have.
Shankari Chandran (04:44):
Right.
Yes, I think it, it's aninteresting one with this
particular novel because I didwrite it, um, the first draft I
wrote in 2016, and at the time Iwas particularly concerned
about, um, the aftermath of theSri Lankan Civil War.
I.
The, the international politicsof it had been, had not been
(05:04):
interrogated, nor had the, thedomestic injustices of it.
But I was also, I was, I wasinterested in both, um, and
particularly interested in therole that governments had played
in that conflict, either throughintervention or through
non-intervention.
And what is the culpability of,of these sort of state actors.
Um, and so I did want toprosecute what happened at the
(05:27):
end of the war and the role thatother countries took in our, in
domestic politics, and foundthat the thriller paradigm or
the thriller genre was the bestway to do it.
And I was particularlyinterested in.
The rise of China and its sortof securing of, its of its trade
routes and its energy andresource and infrastructure
routes.
(05:48):
And so when I wrote it, it was alittle bit out.
It was out there at the time,like no one was interested in
it.
Um, the sales from The Barrierhad not been.
Particularly strong.
Um, I think I like to joke, butI'm actually quite serious that
sales of the barrier had beendriven by my father and my
sister-in-law.
Um, and so, you know, you'reonly ever as good as your last
(06:10):
sales record, and that can hanglike an albatross around your
neck, which can be veryunfortunate.
Um, particularly because yourskills as a writer are maturing
as you develop and as time goesby and with each novel you are
hopefully.
And really actually gettingbetter and better.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so with this thirdmanuscript, publishers weren't
(06:30):
interested in it.
I let it sit on a, on a laptopfor, for many, many years.
But now coming back into thepublic space, I.
The novel seems to be moretopical, more relevant than
ever.
Um, and we are adaptingUnfinished Business and the
character of Ellie Harper.
So my returning protagonist is aCIA agent with a, a background
(06:52):
in human rights law.
We're bringing her back as areturning series and a returning
potentially a TV adaptation.
And in that.
Our research for a book that wasset actually in 2009 and written
eight years ago.
The research is all contemporarynews because everything that is
happening or happened in 2009and happened when I wrote it, is
(07:16):
continuing to happen, which isterrifying.
Really.
Really.
It is terrifying and it'sreally, I think it's, you know,
it's the universal that'slocated in the specific and the
culturally and politicallyspecific, the geographically
specific.
That speaks to universal themesand our inability, clearly to
learn from our mistakes.
Natasha Rai (07:35):
Yeah.
So how do you kind of keep, forwant of a better word, maybe
hope or the will to keep goingbecause you, you're, you're
right about at times heavy.
Or again, want a better word,serious topics.
How does, how do you keep goingwhen what you're writing is
almost mirroring what ishappening in our reality?
Shankari Chandran (07:57):
I think, um, excuse me.
I'm trying to win myself offchocolate, and that seems to,
I'm trying to find substituteslike pickled ginger, so.
It's a good question, Tash, andI think that I'm inherently
optimistic.
(08:17):
I do, I I do feel that on mostdays I have a sense that if we
just keep trying, we'll be okay.
Mm-hmm.
And at the very least, all I cancontrol is my own best efforts.
That's true.
Um, and to some degree.
The children that I've broughtinto the world have some very
limited control over them.
(08:38):
Increasingly less control than Iused to have.
And so I feel a, a degree ofoptimism and a degree of
commitment to putting in thehard work, like a really high
degree of commitment to puttingin the hard work, whether it be
with my writing or just whetherit be in how I try to live my
life.
And then other days, you know,I'll smash a family sized pack
(08:58):
of mini violet crumbles.
Natasha Rai (09:00):
Excellent.
Yeah.
And just sometimes that's theonly way
Shankari Chandran (09:04):
I think.
So, you know, four hours onNetflix later, and, um, yeah,
that's how, that's how I manage.
But I think writing, for me isincredibly therapeutic and it's
really part of that process ofmaintaining hope.
I write a lot of my anger,frustration, my fears, my
existential anxieties, myconcerns about injustices.
(09:25):
I work through a lot of that inmy writing.
And although I don't think thatI am necessarily creating social
change through my writing, I dofeel that I am creating
connection through my writing.
Mm-hmm.
And I think connection isnecessary before we can even
contemplate change.
(09:46):
And so to that extent.
I think there is enormous valuein any of us writing, um, and
value in what I write or what Itry to write about and the way
that I try to connect withpeople through that writing.
Natasha Rai (10:00):
For sure.
And especially when you saidabout anyone, you know,
everyone's writing becausepeople are writing different
stories or differentperspectives, but actually
there's always a commonality inthe human experience, right?
So even if somebody's writingabout.
A culture or an experience oreven a genre they're not
familiar with.
There are points of connectionalways into the story or a
(10:21):
character or an experience thatcharacter is undergoing or going
through always.
Mm-hmm.
Um, so you mentioned earlier TheBarrier.
Is that your first novel inAustralia?
Shankari Chandran (10:32):
Yes, it was the first one that was published
in Australia, but it wasactually my second novel that I
wrote.
Natasha Rai (10:37):
Yes.
Because you've had, uh.
Is interesting.
The right word.
Start to your publication,
Shankari Chandran (10:43):
can use any word you wanna use.
Tash, you're a wonderful,brilliant writer.
I'd be honored to receive anyword from you.
Natasha Rai (10:51):
Stop it.
Anyway.
Um, I'm curious about yourpublishing journey, uh, because
I know, and one of the things wetalk about a lot on this podcast
is how you can come to a pointof getting traditionally
published.
And there are so many ways in.
But I know that yours was also abit of a different beginning to
where you are now.
Shankari Chandran (11:11):
Yes, definitely.
Um, when I started out I had, Iwrote a manuscript called Song
of the Sun God, which was aboutthree generations of Sri Lankan,
Tamil Australian women, and thechoices that they make to
survive Sri Lanka Civil War.
So it is in part set in SriLanka and in part set in
Australia.
(11:32):
And the feedback that I got whenI queried it with agents and
publishers was that it was wellwritten, interesting characters,
strong language.
Um.
But that the novel wouldn't sellin Australia, that it wasn't
Australian enough to bepublished here.
And this was some, um, 10 yearsago.
Natasha Rai (11:51):
Yeah.
I was just about to ask you whatyear, so you wrote Unfinished
Business in 2017, you said.
So had you already written Songof the Sun?
God, at that point?
Shankari Chandran (12:01):
Point I had, yeah.
I had, yes.
So I had written it.
And then spent a year strugglingto find a publisher in
Australia.
Mm-hmm.
And eventually, uh, sent it to apublisher in Sri Lanka and
published it with him.
Mm-hmm.
And that was a very smallpublishing house.
And you know, it's interesting.
(12:21):
My husband and I both have verymixed and different.
Perspectives on that particularpublisher because from her's,
from my husband's perspective,he feels that that was the
getting that book published waswhat unlocked me to.
Okay.
'cause I really, there's thisthing, particularly with your
first novel, I feel I was so,you know, it was really my first
(12:43):
born and I couldn't see pastanything in life until that
novel had been published.
And I was very new, um, andignorant of the publishing
industry.
And what I eventually realizedthat is that publishing can take
months or years.
Whether it be traditional ornon-traditional publishing, it
(13:06):
can take a very, very long timeand sometimes not at all.
Natasha Rai (13:10):
Mm.
Shankari Chandran (13:10):
And the key for me that I eventually learned
was to, to keep writing.
So whenever I have writtensomething, I am almost
immediately, I will allow myselfto rest, but I'm almost
immediately searching my mindand the world for the next story
because the pipeline of work andthe body of work.
(13:32):
It can take, I mean, it can takea book two years, even after you
sign a publishing contract toget it onto shelves.
So you want to have your nextnovel or research ideas, crappy
first drafts in motion.
You should not be waiting.
(13:52):
To see that book on a shelfbefore you then begin the next
step.
Now, in reality, writers, onceyou start writing, you love
writing so much, you can't stop.
Right.
Well, I certainly, once I began,I became addicted and that was
it.
I developed a very unhealthyrelationship with my laptop, um,
but nothing illegal, restassured.
Um, but I think at, so I will,I'm unlikely to ever stop
(14:17):
writing, even if I stoppublishing, but with my first
novel.
Everything felt so contingent onseeing that novel published.
Everything was after I getpublished or after I get an
agent, and actually you can'tlive life like that because you
have no control over that.
So with this particular firstnovel, my husband is delighted
(14:39):
that it went to the Sri Lankanpublisher and he was able to
unlock effectively what becamethe rest of my career.
That experience was morechallenging because it was a
small publisher.
I did not know enough, um, aboutmyself or have enough confidence
within myself to reallynegotiate that contract, so
(15:01):
there was no negotiation.
I know so much more now.
I know that there are standardterms that are on the ASA
website.
I will settle for nothing lessthan that.
Those terms as they are, requirea huge amount of industry
advocacy on behalf of writers.
You know, they're not great forwriters, but they are what they
are.
Mm-hmm.
And that's the industrypractice.
(15:21):
I won't accept less than that,but for my first publishing
contract I did.
Mm-hmm.
And I spent years with thisparticular small publisher
trying to navigate thatrelationship and.
In retrospect, and I've saidthis before in Emily Maguire's
fabulous class, which I thinknow Ashley runs the year of the
novel, that I, in retrospect,felt better off with no
(15:46):
publisher than a bad publisher.
But with my first novel that wasvery hard to understand and very
hard to see.
Natasha Rai (15:57):
And it's, it's also very hard to have confidence in
that statement when you aredesperate to have your first
novel out in the world.
Shankari Chandran (16:03):
100%.
There is nothing like thedesperation of that, of wanting,
yearning for that first novel tobe published.
Natasha Rai (16:12):
Exactly.
Shankari Chandran (16:13):
So after that novel went to Sri Lanka was
published there, I wrote TheBarrier, but I, I'd finished The
Barrier and at some point in thesort of querying process of.
Of Song of the Sun God and I wasgetting this feedback, uh, about
how the novel wouldn't sell inAustralia.
And so I took The Barrier, whichwas almost completed, and I
changed the protagonist from abrown, south Asian, um, sort of
(16:39):
secret agent, got a thing forsecret agents.
Natasha Rai (16:43):
You do
Shankari Chandran (16:43):
And, and I changed them from brown to white
and that novel found anAustralian publisher quite
quickly and that novel went outinto the world.
And again, it's interesting whatyou learn in retrospect or from
that experience, but I was onlyneed, I was really only at that
(17:04):
early learning stage of how doesone build a brand?
I.
What is social media?
Um, you know, where do I need toshow up at?
Mm.
How do I sell myself?
Natasha Rai (17:17):
Yeah.
All the building blocks oflongevity as well.
Shankari Chandran (17:20):
Exactly.
And, but as a writer, I'm, youknow, deeply introverted.
I, by nature would happily stayin my pajamas in my room all
day, just writing books andoccasionally throwing food at
the children.
Natasha Rai (17:32):
And I think your, um, out of office even says that
I'm in my pajamas.
Shankari Chandran (17:36):
Yes, yes, it does.
Don't disturb me.
Natasha Rai (17:39):
Exactly.
Shankari Chandran (17:41):
Um, so I take my writing very seriously and I
just, you know, had to learn howto.
See that sort of businessdevelopment side for what it is,
it's business development andyou have to do it to secure the
longevity of your career, or atleast to assist the longevity of
your career.
Natasha Rai (18:00):
So on the way, as you were learning these lessons,
were you learning them throughthat kind of direct experience?
Or at that point had you startedto cultivate a community or an
agent or, yeah.
Shankari Chandran (18:10):
Um.
I put everything really, I wasvery fortunate.
I had, I had an agent with me,um, from the time that I
finished Song of the.
I was so fortunate to become amember of writing New South
Wales.
I loved their work enough toeventually join their board.
(18:31):
Um, but at the time I was anemerging writer, not even
emerging, and I benefitedenormously, not just from their
courses, but from the communitythat they have at, at Callan
Park, at the, the actuallocation of writing New South
Wales.
Mm-hmm.
Writing is very solitary andliterary fiction I think is
particularly solitary and we'renot writers of literary fiction
(18:54):
are probably even more.
Solitary than the averagewriter.
Whereas the crime writers, forexample, are just, they seem to
be partying hard.
They're always together, they'realways going on writing retreats
together.
It's, it's just a thing, right?
Whereas for me, I'm like, thelast thing I want is to be on a
retreat with anybody.
Um, the, and so I look at theirsort of Instagram sites.
(19:19):
Uh, with confusion and, um, andexcitement for them because
they're clearly so excited byeach other.
Um, but we still, as literaryfiction writers.
Need a, a community, needpeople, need friends.
Because I found it was onlyother writers that understood
the sheer agony of what I wasgoing through.
(19:42):
Yeah.
And the insecurity of it.
The soul destroying self-esteem,crushing reality of reject after
rejection.
The way that the rest of theworld views your writing?
It is and has been for manyyears.
My work, I know, has beenregarded as a hobby.
(20:04):
You know, Shankari's got thisquirky little hobby.
Um, it's the, the, thedefinition of career.
Work in our contemporary societyand perhaps in all societies, is
largely ascribed to thoseactivities that generate an
income.
Writing does not generate anincome for a very long time, and
(20:25):
when it does, most writers, eventhe successful ones, you know,
considered commerciallysuccessful or awarded ones,
don't make enough to.
It is, it takes a very long timefor the, the task, the activity
of writing to be reflected backto you as work, and that's hard
(20:51):
to carry.
You know, I come from a familyand a community where work is
everything.
You are really valued for yourwork ethic and your capacity to
work and your and output, andyour ability to take care of
your family writing.
Not understood and does not meetmany of those KPIs.
Natasha Rai (21:10):
No, it doesn't.
Shankari Chandran (21:11):
Um, and yet it is this thing that is so
profoundly, deeply,intrinsically important to me.
It's the thing by which I definemyself really, or even if it's
not necessarily a definitionthat feels quite grandiose.
It's the thing that gives mesuch purpose and joy and it's
(21:34):
not understood.
Really, except for otherwriters.
And so that writing communityand being able to say, does this
look right to you?
Does this agreement look rightto you?
What should I be doing?
You are going to that festival.
Should I be going to thatfestival?
And the writing community issuch a beautiful community.
Natasha Rai (21:55):
It really is.
Shankari Chandran (21:56):
We help each other.
Mm-hmm.
You know, we, we recommend eachother's books.
We read each other's drafts.
We get each other invited tothings.
We social media, the shit out ofeach other because we, we know
that we rise together.
It isn't a, um, you know, it's afinite pie as such.
Natasha Rai (22:17):
Exactly.
'cause the more that we helpcome in and get that
recognition, the more spacethere is.
Yes.
The more and more stories we cantell.
Shankari Chandran (22:27):
Yeah, we're breaking and expanding those
horizons together and that'sreally, really rewarding.
I love, my favorite part of awriter's festival is the green
room.
Um, I mean, I just sort of showup just for the green room and
then, and then leave, but it'sprobably unethical.
Um, so yes.
So it's a wonderful community.
Natasha Rai (22:48):
Yes.
Shankari Chandran (22:48):
And by making lots mistakes the other way.
Natasha Rai (22:52):
And also the important thing about making
mistakes is they don't have tobe catastrophic.
'cause you know, a lot ofemerging writers, like even I
remember, it wasn't that longago that I was terrified that if
I submit to a publisher or anagent and the, it's not ready,
or I just get one shot andthat's it, I've ruined it
forever.
And that's not actually true.
(23:12):
Unless you're, unless you're,you know, you're really mean to
them or you are whatever.
Like if you're behaving badly,that's different.
But if you're just having a, ago or you're trying, then
nothing is really thatcatastrophic that you can do.
That means the door is shutforever.
Right?
Shankari Chandran (23:25):
Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely.
And I think there's, so,particularly now, it's been,
I've been writing since, um,2012 when I started Song of the
Sun God in 2012.
And my career is very differentfrom other people's.
I, I look at the sort of debutbestseller with a combination
of, um, admiration and envybecause it's a, a much faster
(23:51):
track to a better place.
And at the same time, that's notbeen my journey.
My journey is my journey.
And it's taken 13 years.
I started writing my first novelexactly in April, 2012.
It's April, 2025 now.
Natasha Rai (24:09):
Yeah.
Shankari Chandran (24:09):
So that is 13 years of writing.
Um, and it's been hard and, andgreat.
Gisela Ervin-Ward (24:23):
Hi, I'm Gisela Ervin-Ward and my upper
middle grade novel, True South,published by Midnight Sun
Publishing is out now.
It's not every day you crashyour boat into a house.
As Nell South Nicholas hung overthe gun over her sailboat to
inspect the damage.
She wondered why that day had tobe today when Nell crashes a
sailboat into a submerged housein the reservoir, the last thing
she expects to find is treasureand a secret that could change
(24:44):
everything.
12-year-old Nell lives on a farmin Central Victoria where two
things are certain.
Sailing is a favorite thing inthe world, and the Souths and
the Wilsons absolutely do notget along.
So in the Sunken House, turnsout to be Nell's family's old
home, and it might havesomething to do with the missing
family heirlooms that both theSouths and the Wilsons want.
The only person who can helpsolve the mystery is Charlie
(25:05):
Wilson, aka the enemy and thingsget complicated fast.
As Nell and Charlie warily teamup, dig into the past and hunt
for the missing heirlooms, oldand new secrets threatened to
break their fragile alliance.
Friendships get tested, familyhistory gets messy, and Nell
starts wondering if being aSouth really means what she
thought it did.
Can two girls caught in themiddle of a feud change the
(25:27):
story or the adults ensure thatthey end up repeating it?
With plenty of the type ofaction that's part of rural
kids' lives.
True South explores themes ofcoming to terms with the past
young teenagers navigatingfriendship changes for the first
time.
Sailing, living in ruralAustralia, and children's
connection to family andlandscape.
Great.
For nine or 13 year olds.
True South by Gisela Ervin-Wardis out now.
Natasha Rai (25:53):
So then you, we were up to The Barrier and you
said, you mentioned earlier thatit.
Didn't sell well particularlywell?
No.
Okay.
Shankari Chandran (26:00):
It did not, it was optioned for television.
Um, they had a few cracks atpitching it the producers and
then COVID hit and so thenplague dramas, unless you were
rewatching contagion with MattDamon Plague dramas were sort
of, you know, put on pause,which was fine, but I.
(26:23):
Then wrote I in the end, youknow, as we're sort of trucking
along, I wrote UnfinishedBusiness.
Mm-hmm.
That, um, did not get very farwith publishers because of the
sales of The Barrier.
At that point, I really shouldhave stopped writing
professionally, I suppose I.
Natasha Rai (26:40):
Well, I'm glad you didn't.
Shankari Chandran (26:41):
Sensible.
Had I been more sensible?
Um, but I did think that mywriting, my publishing career
was over.
I did think that for me,publishing was probably done and
that I would have to come toterms with that.
And so I had a sense of griefaround trying to make myself let
go of this dream.
Career, not so much the dream ofwriting because you'll always
(27:03):
write, I will always write, butthe dream of a career of being a
published author.
And so then I thought, well,I'll, I'll write the book.
I've always.
Wanted to write.
I'd been toying with this ideaof a book in a nursing home
where I used to go visit mygrandmother.
Um, and my beautiful was stillalive actually, when I was
(27:24):
writing it.
I started it in 2019.
I thought I would writesomething a bit more whimsical,
and then I just kept gettingpulled back to the idea of
exploring race.
Yeah.
And I figured no one's going topublish this novel.
Just my dad, my sister-in-law,and my cousins will read it.
Therefore I can write freely andI can actually write about race
(27:44):
in the way that I think and feeland have, and have observed
race.
Um, and so I wrote Chai Time atCinnamon Gardens, and that was a
really, that was a, a careerchanging novel for me.
Natasha Rai (27:57):
Yeah.
Shankari Chandran (27:57):
Um, and you know, Tash, every novel that
I've written, so by that, thatwas actually my fourth
manuscript.
Natasha Rai (28:04):
Mm.
Shankari Chandran (28:06):
Manuscript two, three, and four I.
When I finished writing them, Iwould lean into the manuscript.
Please, please.
That brings Song of the Sun GodHome.
Because what I really wanted inmy heart was for this first
novel that was about our historyand our culture and our war and
(28:28):
our people.
I wanted that novel published inmy home, Australia.
Mm.
So I sent Chai Time into theworld with the same gentle
prayer.
Natasha Rai (28:39):
Yeah.
Shankari Chandran (28:40):
And Robert Watkins at Ultimo picked it up,
um, within a month of it beingqueried.
And he has been a dream to workwith.
And together we have sincepublished Chai time at Cinnamon
Gardens.
He then republished, he boughtthe rights to Song of the Sun
(29:01):
God and Republished Song of theSun God.
He published Unfinished Businessbefore that, obviously Safe
Haven.
Um, and I will republish TheBarrier with him when I have the
time and energy mm-hmm.
To change my protagonist fromwhite back to brown.
Natasha Rai (29:21):
Okay.
And probably listeners, and justfor listeners who are unaware of
how big, how significant ChaiTime at Cinnamon Gardens has
been for you, it won the MilesFranklin Award in 2023, and that
was huge and congratulationsagain.
That must have been, and itbrought Song of the Sun God,
home, as you say.
(29:41):
Mm-hmm.
It must have, I imagine, justopened so many new opportunities
for you.
Is that what it felt like?
Shankari Chandran (29:49):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
It, it definitely felt like thatand still feels like that.
I still feel so grateful to thatnovel, um, and to the path that
it's taken in the way that ithas then opened up the rest of
my career or, or opened up acareer for me.
Natasha Rai (30:07):
Mm.
Shankari Chandran (30:07):
Um, and so.
Chai Time at Cinnamon Gardenshas been optioned for
television.
We're working on the adaptationwith Shakthidharan, um, and
Mithila Gupta and AquariusFilms.
Shakthidharan wrote Jungle andthe Sea.
Natasha Rai (30:23):
Yes.
I'm a huge fan of his as, as I'mof Mithila Gupta too.
Shankari Chandran (30:26):
Yes, yes, yes.
I too, I'm a big fan of both.
Nearly fell off my chair whenthey were the suggested
creatives.
Um.
And so we're working on thattogether.
And Shakthi is lead writer.
Mithila is story producer.
Amazing.
And it's been a really greatexperience so far.
Aquarius Films has beenbeautiful to work with and I
(30:47):
think it will, you know, thesethings just take their own time.
So that's, that's that project.
And then obviously, um, well,not obviously, but Unfinished
Business is also being adaptedfor television with Photo Play.
And the, the, the profile onChai Time at Cinnamon Gardens
(31:09):
has this halo effect on my othernovels and my other potential
adaptations.
And so there has been again.
A much bigger spotlight on thepotential TV adaptation of
Unfinished Business and a verysignificant and helpful amount
of interest in it.
Natasha Rai (31:27):
And you know, Shankari, it just goes to show,
and I'm not talking about, youknow, if you write whatever you
want, you'll necessarily win anaward or open doors like that.
But what that speaks to me is inthat moment of that kind of that
rollercoaster where you're rightat the bottom and you thought,
I'm done with this career, butI'm going to keep riding.
In a way it frees you to writethe story that was felt true at
(31:50):
the time, and it was spoke toyou in a very different way
because.
Sometimes writers when they'retrying to get published might
follow.
It's not a trap, but they mightfollow a part that they feel
they have to write in a certainway or for a certain audience as
opposed to writing forthemselves.
And actually, I.
Writing for yourself brings youthe greatest pleasure, firstly
(32:13):
and maybe more likely to findreaders who it resonates with
because you're writing from agreater place of truth.
Shankari Chandran (32:20):
I think that's exactly right.
I do.
I think there's a lot of noisewhen you are writing.
There can be, and there can be alot of external pressure and a
lot of worse internal pressure,and it's easy to forget.
The joy of just putting one worddown in front of another and
pushing yourself to producesomething that you are really
(32:42):
proud of.
That's the best that it can be,and the best that you can be.
Um, and to sort of still yourmind and all those voices for
long enough to, to hear and seethe truth and, and give words to
that.
Natasha Rai (32:55):
Mm-hmm.
Amazing.
And, and so for you, Shankari,like once Chai Time was out in
the world and it was starting toget all this recognition, were
you able to write, like, is thatwhen you wrote Safe Haven or
Shankari Chandran (33:06):
Yes.
Yeah.
Yes.
So this is why I think with my,with my last three novels,
Unfinished Business, then goingback Safe Haven and then going
back Chai Time, I think there isa mistake and belief that I am
prolific and that I am veryfast.
I'm not.
I wrote Chai Time at CinnamonGardens and submitted it in, um,
(33:26):
at the end of 2020.
Mm-hmm.
So, and it came out some 13months later.
Okay.
Mm-hmm.
So mm-hmm.
Came out at the beginning of2022.
It won the Miles Franklin 18months later.
Yeah.
In that 18 months, I hadproduced.
A crappy first draft of SafeHaven.
So by the time everyone justsaid, who is this and what's
(33:50):
this book about?
Because 18 months of Chai Timebeing out in the world, and it
had actually done really well interms of sales and readership,
but it's nothing compared towhat the Miles Franklin did for
it.
Mm-hmm.
So it looked like a new book tomany people.
It wasn't a new book, but itlooked like a new book.
Yeah.
Because of the way the awardcycle works and then the way the
(34:11):
publicity works.
And then some, what is it?
Nine months after Chai Timewins, Safe Haven comes out, but
that book had already been wellon its way in the two years
before its publication.
Then Chai, then Safe Haven comesout, and then seven months later
(34:31):
unfinished Business comes out.
Natasha Rai (34:32):
Yes.
So this is what I wanted to comewritten for 2017.
So this is the bit I wanted tocome back to.
Was there a, like, was that adeliberate kind of choice that
Ultimo and you made together?
Shankari Chandran (34:44):
No.
So the way that that worked wasthat when Robert and I, um, when
Robert and I first starteddating, um.
Bought, um, the rights toUnfinished Business, but the
focus was on getting Chai Timeat Cinnamon Gardens out.
(35:05):
I had talked to him about aliterary novel I was interested
in writing, which later becameSafe Haven.
Unfinished Business just sort ofsat there in a, in a queue.
And I think quite rightly,publishers want to see how your
work goes before they send threebooks out into the world in one
go.
Right?
So, um.
(35:26):
There would've been absolutelyan important element of that.
And in the meantime, Audible hadalso bought the content of
Unfinished Business as anAudible original.
And what that means is, which Iwas new to it, is writers are
writing content for Audible asaudible originals, which means
(35:50):
that they go straight to audio.
They appear as audio first.
And then Audible owned by Amazonsets the terms of that and the
terms will be,
Natasha Rai (36:00):
oh, I did not know that.
Shankari Chandran (36:01):
Yeah, and the terms will be that you are
allowed to publish that book ifyou have held back your
publishing rights, which I had.
You are allowed to publish thatbook.
So six months after the audiocomes out.
So the audible comes out firstas an original because it hasn't
(36:21):
been seen anywhere before.
So it's called an original.
Natasha Rai (36:24):
Mm-hmm.
Shankari Chandran (36:24):
And then at least six months must pass and
you can bring it out in bookform.
And so just the way that thatcadence worked is what you are
seeing now.
Natasha Rai (36:33):
Ah, I see.
Got it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Shankari Chandran (36:36):
So, so Unfinished Business came out in
February.
Of 2024.
Sorry.
Yes, 2024.
So at one point it looked likeI'd released two books within
two months of each other.
I was like, please, everyone,calm down.
This book has been out for eightyears on my laptop.
Yeah, this other book took twoyears at least to, to write.
(36:59):
Um, and I loved working withAudible, the commissioning
editor there Radhiya Chowdrey.
Fabulous commissioning editor,and she was the one who really
supported me with UnfinishedBusiness to take the
protagonist.
Remember that was my thirdmanuscript written after the
(37:20):
Barrier.
Natasha Rai (37:20):
That's right.
Yes.
Shankari Chandran (37:21):
Originally I wrote her as a white woman.
Mm-hmm.
Rathi, or Radhiya Chowdrey fromAudible.
When she read the content, shesaid, I love it.
I can't help but feel that yourprotagonist is actually a brown
woman trapped in a white body.
Natasha Rai (37:37):
Very perceptive.
Shankari Chandran (37:38):
Very perceptive, and, and just so
like a real kind of case studyfor why you want to have diverse
voices at the table, makingcuratorial and commissioning
decisions why you want diversevoices in places of power.
And that was a wonderfulpartnership and.
(37:58):
Changed.
Um, Ellie really back to who shewas intended to be all along,
and it just works so much morebeautifully as.
Natasha Rai (38:08):
Oh, that's so wonderful.
And you know, uh, since winningthe Miles Franklin has it also
then had an impact on, as inthat overseas distribution as
well?
Shankari Chandran (38:18):
Has that?
Not yet.
Not yet.
So this is really interesting.
Tash, I would've hoped for, um,the Miles Franklin to open the
door to internationalpublication of that book at
least.
Um.
But it has had a limited run, alimited publication in the UK
(38:40):
through an imprint, or in factthrough Ultimo Press UK.
Um, and what we are hoping forthough is a wider distribution
in the UK and um, an Americanpublication.
It has been translated intoFinnish.
It's being, yes, I've had greatreviews from Finland.
(39:03):
It's being translated intoArabic, um, that has not been
completed yet.
It's currently being translatedinto Chinese.
And I've met my beautifulChinese translator who works at
the University of WesternSydney, Jing Han, amazing woman.
And so that will take as long asit takes, I guess, to, to
(39:23):
translate and to publish inChina.
But it has not yet had anAmerican or a a, a proper UK
deal.
Um, so I'm hoping with my nextnovel that maybe that will make
its way into.
Natasha Rai (39:40):
How surprising.
Finnish.
Shankari Chandran (39:42):
Yes.
Finish.
Yeah, I know.
I mean, it makes me laughbecause all the sort of
academics in my family are like,yes, that makes total sense
because the Tamil language isactually connected to the pheno
Hungarian language.
Like okay.
Um, that's exactly why the Finswant to
Natasha Rai (39:57):
Exactly.
Shankari Chandran (39:57):
Read the story.
Um, and you mentioned Shankariearlier about diverse voices.
I imagine just like I'm startingto get asked, you get asked a
lot about diversity, theimportance of amplifying voices,
um, and almost sometimes beingput up as a spokesperson.
Hmm.
Natasha Rai (40:17):
How do you cope, manage, navigate that?
Do you like getting asked thatquestion?
Shankari Chandran (40:23):
Um, I don't like it anymore.
I was initially okay about beingasked that question because it's
a legitimate question and it'san important question.
The question exists because aproblem exists.
And those perhaps best place toanswer it are those with lived
experience of the challenges ofpublishing, uh, in know a white
(40:47):
dominant environment.
So I understand the need for thequestion and the importance of
the answer and the importance ofaddressing the problem.
And the problem is plural,interconnected, as they are, are
being addressed slowly butsurely, in particular because.
Of publishers like RobertWatkins who are willing to
publish and who recognize theenormous quality of that
(41:10):
literature.
Not just the value of diversity,but the fact that the literature
is incredibly good, um, and thata cultural landscape or a
literary landscape that reflectsour cultural landscape makes
sense.
Um, it also is changing becausewriters from non-white
(41:33):
backgrounds are continuing towrite despite the setbacks that
they receive that are different,and I would suggest greater than
many of the setbacks that whitewriters experience, which is not
to say that they do notexperience setbacks.
Um, and I do think those areally important.
(41:55):
Of class and socioeconomicbackground and privilege around
writing.
So I can afford to change mycorporate career to give myself
time to write, and that is aneconomic privilege afforded to
me by generations of family andto my own struggle and education
(42:19):
and employment.
That is not something thateveryone has.
So I think when we talk aboutdiversity, we need to continue
to talk about diversity.
We need to continue to thoughalso talk about the ways in
which the lack of diversityexists or presents itself.
It's not just color or gender.
Natasha Rai (42:39):
Yeah, I agree.
Shankari Chandran (42:40):
It's economics.
It's the loss of things.
Um, I think we also, I know whatit is about that question.
Part of me.
Is unwilling to concede thepremise because diversity
suggests, um, that we arebringing difference into
(43:00):
something that's fundamentallyhomogenous.
And I see that we are, I seethat there is a dominant
narrative and a dominant group.
I also think that.
My lived experience, my norms,what I write about, what I live,
what I imagine my imagination ismy norm and it's my normal.
(43:21):
And so when I go to my friend asa child, my friend Kate Kelly's
house, and I'm presented with asteak, three vegetables and a
knife and fork, like, wow, youguys are so diverse because that
is different.
Natasha Rai (43:33):
Yeah.
Shankari Chandran (43:34):
To my experience and how we conceive
of the world is different.
So not just how we eat or whatwe eat.
So I think there's somethingeven in the question that I
would love to unpack.
Um, not right now on yourpodcast, but you've asked me how
(43:54):
do I deal with the questions.
I answer them, I answer themhonestly, and I answer them
sincerely.
I understand where they comefrom.
It's a heavy weight to carry tofeel that I am.
Um.
I mean, there's a, there isactually a growing group of
writers of color massivelyquickly growing, and they're all
really articulate and eloquenton these issues and many more
(44:19):
issues, right?
Writers from.
Different backgrounds shouldnot, should not only be asked
about their background, theyshould be asked about, you know,
their view on affordablehousing.
Um, so I think thankfully thereis a growing body and I am less
of the representative than Iused to have to be.
Natasha Rai (44:38):
Mm-hmm.
Shankari Chandran (44:39):
Um, I never really accepted I that mantle
comfortably.
Not just because I'mintroverted, but because I
recognize my own privilege and Idon't want to be.
Shunted into a place wherepeople are asking me questions
about an experience that isactually much broader and deeper
(45:00):
and nuanced than what I canspeak to because I can only
speak to what I've lived.
Natasha Rai (45:06):
Yeah.
And what you know.
Exactly.
And what I know.
Yes.
Yeah.
Um, and I think just on thatpoint as well, the more stories
that we have that are told,we're also reaching more readers
because even.
Our lives, the people around ushave changed even in the last
10, 15, 20 years.
(45:26):
Mm-hmm.
So the readership is changingtoo.
And even readers who havetraditionally read one type or
another type or have fa favoritewriters, they are hungry for new
stories and new voices.
Like, it's not just some ideaof, well, here is this other,
other group of people who mightbe interested.
It's like everyone.
Mm-hmm.
A lot of people are interested.
(45:47):
Both established and the oneswho haven't yet had access.
Shankari Chandran (45:51):
Yeah, and there's a whole conversation on
that to be had separately aboutwhether the readership, I think
the readership is changingbecause.
The readership of the world isdiversifying itself, it's
migration.
Global migration necessarilymeans the markets that once
looked a particular way now lookdifferent.
Natasha Rai (46:09):
Hmm.
Shankari Chandran (46:09):
At the same time, I think intelligent,
curious people have alwayssought to read a range of
literature, and there is a, youknow, an argument to be made
that the curators of culturewere the ones that didn't
actually get that.
Natasha Rai (46:26):
Yeah.
Shankari Chandran (46:27):
Yeah,
Natasha Rai (46:28):
I hear you.
Um, so I'm a little bit shockedthat we are nearly out of time
because I'm having such a greattime talking to you.
Shankari Chandran (46:38):
No, this is why we should go out for a
drink, not a podcast.
Natasha Rai (46:41):
I agree.
Let's make that happen.
Um, but just as a finalquestion, given as you said
that, you know, when you lookedat your calendar and it, it's,
it's 13 years of.
Writing practice.
What have you learned, or fromeverything you've learned,
everything you've experiencedalong the way, do you have any
advice or top tips for emergingwriters now?
Shankari Chandran (47:03):
I would say first and foremost, just keep
writing.
Keep your pipeline and body ofwork going.
Don't stop.
Uh, and I would also say braceyourself.
'cause it is challenging and itdoesn't, I know that you'll,
they'll know that it's notcoming easily after their first
(47:25):
sort of 10 rejections.
You, you get the sense it's notgonna come easily, right?
Natasha Rai (47:29):
Mm-hmm.
Shankari Chandran (47:29):
And I don't mean this to sound motherhood
and apple pie, but I do mean itsincerely.
It isn't easy, but it is worthit.
My advice would be just keepwriting, keep going.
Don't give up.
Don't listen to the noise.
Listen to yourself.
Sit down in front of the blankpage and keep going.
Natasha Rai (47:48):
Great advice.
Thank you.
Shankari Chandran (47:50):
Thank you.
Thank you for the opportunity totalk to you.
Tina Strachan (47:56):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new eps drop.
To keep up to date with what thepod is doing, you can also find
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