March 12, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode of The Book Deal Podcast, hosted by Natasha Rai, multi-talented writer and tsunami scientist Kaya Wilson discusses their unique publishing journey. Their debut memoir, 'As Beautiful As Any Other,' was widely acclaimed, and Kaya offers insightful advice on developing a writing practice, the importance of setting boundaries, and the collaborative but challenging editing process. They also share experiences from significant events like the Sydney Writers' Festival and provide a glimpse into their upcoming queer coming-of-age novel, 'Romeo, A Tale of Four Jumps.' Kaya emphasizes the value of strategic planning, the role of grants, and the emotional complexity of writing memoirs versus fiction.
Our debut in the spotlight this week is Steve Minon, whose literary fiction novel, First Name Second Name, was released on 4 March 2025 with UQP.
00:00 Introduction to the Book Deal Podcast
00:39 Meet Kaya Wilson: Author and Scientist
01:13 Kaya's Elevator Pitch and Writing Style
03:45 The Importance of Boundaries in Memoir Writing
08:41 Navigating the Publication Journey
10:27 Finding and Working with an Agent
17:45 The Role of Competitions and Fellowships
16:00 Steve Minon's novel: First Name Second Name
19:22 The Waiting Game: Resubmission and Acceptance
20:47 Navigating the Editing Process
23:15 The Emotional Rollercoaster of Legal Edits
24:15 Memoir Release and Festival Experience
27:29 Transitioning to Fiction Writing
30:15 Balancing Work and Writing
36:06 Tips for Emerging Writers
37:36 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Natasha Rai (00:09):
This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover
by your host, Natasha Rai.
I'll be bringing you even moredebut and season authors as they
talk about their path topublication.
Madeleine Cleary (00:26):
The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters which it's recorded
on.
and pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging.
Natasha Rai (00:39):
Kaya Wilson is a writer, tsunami scientist, and
lover of all things ocean, whosomehow finds himself living in
Canberra.
Their first book, As BeautifulAs Any Other, was listed by The
Guardian as one of the bestbooks of 2021 and shortlisted
for the 2022 ACT Book of theYear.
Their second book, a queercoming of age novel, Romeo, A
(01:02):
Tale of Four Jumps, is insubmission.
Hi, Kaya.
Welcome to the Book DealPodcast.
Kaya Wilson (01:09):
Hello.
Thank you for having me.
Natasha Rai (01:11):
My absolute pleasure.
Um, so we're here today to talka little bit about your
publishing journey, um, and howyou got your first deal.
But before we get to that, Iwould love to hear your elevator
pitch.
Yep, straight up.
Kaya Wilson (01:28):
Yeah, look, I've never been great at the elevator
pitch.
But I'll give it a shot.
Um, the other day I called itemo memoir.
Um, look, it's a, it's, I'mactually.
You know, it's been a few yearsnow and I was looking back at it
and I feel really proud of it,right?
It's a, it's a memoir, it'sbroken up into thematic
chapters, and it sort of covers,um, the period of time in,
(01:52):
probably one of the moreformative times of my life, um,
when I began my gendertransition, um, sort of
emotionally and medically, andit's sort of about everything
that got me there, and thenwhere I thought it was going to
take me, essentially.
Natasha Rai (02:10):
Thanks.
That's a great pitch.
Kaya Wilson (02:11):
Thanks.
Yeah, like I did an event withDiana Reid.
Um, and she was like going offthe charts, it was successful
with Love and Virtue at thetime.
And she had this pitch that wasrehearsed, nailed, managed.
And that is something I want todo for my next book.
I want to, it's my new bookresolution to get that pitch
(02:32):
nailed in a way that.
You know, everyone canunderstand.
He doesn't have any idea whatyou're talking about.
Natasha Rai (02:38):
Yeah, I think it's, I find it really hard not to
roll my eyes and make a stupidface.
So
Kaya Wilson (02:45):
you've got one, but you've got one prepared though.
That's half the battle.
Natasha Rai (02:48):
Well, I've had to, you know, cause this is so close
to release.
So I've
Kaya Wilson (02:52):
had to kind of practice it a lot.
Absolutely.
And especially like fiction.
Yeah.
If you can, like, I would loveto get you to do it now, but I'm
not going to do that becauseit's not your job today, but I
look forward to hearing it liveon radio someday.
Exactly.
Natasha Rai (03:06):
Some other time.
Um, so I don't know if youremember, but, um, you gave me
some excellent advice many, manyyears ago.
So you and I had a, we both hadpieces in that Me Too anthology
that came out in 2017, I think,or 2018.
Yeah.
And we were doing an eventtogether.
And before we went on stage, yousaid to me, just be careful
(03:27):
because when you're, you know,when you're up there and
there's.
A lot of lovely supportivepeople around, you might say a
bit too much, or you might sharea bit too much about yourself
and later on you think, Oh, Ireally didn't want to do that.
That's interesting.
So I was thinking.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was like going
Kaya Wilson (03:44):
back in time.
Yeah.
Go on.
Natasha Rai (03:45):
So I was thinking about that advice that you gave
me and I was wondering if thatplays or had a part to play when
you approach your memoir, likehow do you even start something
like that kind of a project?
Kaya Wilson (03:57):
Yeah, I mean, there's a boundaries, right?
We're talking about boundaries.
And I think, yeah, at the time,like, you know, it's part of
everyone's psychologicalevolution.
And it's interesting for me tohear from you what I said at
that time, because I think I wasreally learning a new type of
boundaries, especially in termsof being In the public eye to a
small degree with the book,absolutely.
(04:21):
I do think of it as a boundarytext, even though there are some
quite like exposing orvulnerable elements to it and
moments that not everyone'sgoing to share.
And, um, I think there's a fewthings in that.
And there's lots of people whoapproach memoir in different
ways, right?
So some people, it seems to bethat everyone who, most people
(04:43):
who write memoir find a way tosay what they need to say, and
that might be eitherfictionalizing it or, or, uh,
you know, classing it as autofiction or, or something that
gives them a little bit of, uh,liberation from mm-hmm You know,
(05:04):
being exposed or they dosomething a bit like what I sort
of did was like, write it firstand then come back to sort of
edit what you don't want to bemade public.
And there are certain thingsabout being from a slightly
marginalized identity that canfeel exposing in some ways, or
(05:24):
you feel like are overexposed ingeneral.
Um, and you feel like you don'twant that.
I felt like I didn't want peopleto fixate on or.
I felt needed to be presented ina certain way because we don't,
we don't live in a vacuum.
Right.
Um, yeah, there are some thingsthat I did couch somewhat and,
(05:45):
and that's also kind ofinteresting for me because some
of those things I did hold backon, um, really came out of my
fiction.
So, um, I think.
The things that need to comeout, come out at some point.
It's just, you need to controlhow, how it's done in a way that
you feel comfortable with.
And so sometimes your boundariesevolve, right?
Um, and.
(06:07):
You know, I don't know how youfeel about that Me Too
experience.
And it's interesting thinkingback now, like, wow, like the Me
Too movement, that was quite aheady time, wasn't it?
Natasha Rai (06:18):
It really was.
Kaya Wilson (06:19):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (06:20):
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (06:23):
It feels almost quaint in this day and age.
Yeah.
But yeah, so boundaries,important.
Hold them and also establishthem before you publish.
That's the other thing.
Natasha Rai (06:36):
So for you, Kaya, you wrote, you wrote it, and
then once you kind of went backto it, did the themes emerge or
did you have themes in mind thatyou then moved things around to
fit?
Kaya Wilson (06:49):
Yeah, themes absolutely emerged.
So I actually wrote it, um, in amore conventional chronological
way.
It's probably a series of like80 essays of about like 1000
words each.
And I went back and I just triedan experiment one day where I
tried to weave two thingstogether.
And, um, I wrote one 5, 000 wordchapter and I was like, Oh, this
(07:11):
is good and it was thematic.
And I was like, Oh, thematicworks.
I was like, Oh, no, I have towrite the whole thing again.
And then I wrote the whole thingagain.
And it just, um, the themes tome, what rose to the top, you
know, it was the, the A storyand B story.
It was the, the real meaningkind of came to the top when I
made it thematic.
(07:33):
Um, And yeah, so sometimes whenthings are thematic, you can
hide some of the content.
Natasha Rai (07:39):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, for some of ourlisteners who are considering or
who are working on memoir, howdid you look after yourself?
Well, because I assume thatparts of it must have been quite
difficult to write.
Kaya Wilson (07:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
It was part of writing.
It was part of looking out tomyself.
If that makes sense.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (07:59):
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (08:00):
Um, I mean, that's not my entire mental health
strategy.
Natasha Rai (08:05):
It's a good one though.
It's almost like a catharsis,right?
Kaya Wilson (08:09):
Yeah.
And you know, it's making senseof things.
And it was a way that I havemade sense of things a lot of
people do get that from writingthings.
I mean, I did also have therapy,et cetera.
Um, but.
Yeah, it was so important to myway of understanding myself and
the world at the time that it'squite hard to even separate, um,
(08:32):
separate it out.
Natasha Rai (08:34):
So you write this memoir, you put it into a, an
order that makes sense to you interms of themes.
So tell me a little bit aboutyour publication journey after
that, because I know that you'vehad lots of short pieces and
lots of publications alreadyunder your belt by that point.
Kaya Wilson (08:51):
Thanks.
Yeah.
So that was a, I'd saystrategic, actually, the short
pieces.
Um, and when we talk aboutboundaries, some of the short
pieces of the things that Iprobably feel the weirdest
about, but, and then also likenow that kind of like first
person opinion, PC type stuff,I'd barely even read it anymore.
(09:13):
Like, I think it was just forme, legit a phase or even like
maybe a phase is.
In media at the time that I wasa bit more engaged in, um, but,
but that aside, the emotional orattachment to it aside, getting
your, some things published issuper important, I think, for
(09:34):
me, it worked right.
So I had.
Um, short things publishedonline, a couple in print and
then two anthologies and then abook.
So the, for me, the key, thelinchpin to all of it was having
an agent.
Um, but it goes the same with anagent or not, right?
(09:55):
Because you're either you arepitching yourself or the agent
is pitching you.
So you still need to havesomething to pitch, um, having
something published means thatnot just you, but someone else
has said, Oh, we think this isgood enough to publish.
Um, my agent, uh, got me sortof.
(10:16):
Well, it kind of got me theinvitation to apply or send a
piece in for the Me Tooanthology.
Natasha Rai (10:23):
So before we go into that, can we just take a
step back?
How did you get your agent?
A lot of our listeners are veryinterested.
Kaya Wilson (10:30):
So yeah, I mean, this is probably, like I knew
her socially.
Right.
And that's kind of an annoyingthing to hear because it sounds
like all who, you know, orhaving connections.
Um, and I did know someone semifamous watching someone pretty
famous who she was the publicistfor, so she knew all about like
(10:56):
publishing.
Um, so my agent is Jane Novak.
She knew about publishing.
She was a publicist at the timewhen I first met her.
I really liked her.
I saw her in action with, uh,well known writers in a
publicist role, but for likepeople who are stratospheric,
they kind of have a publicistwho follows them around.
Um, I don't have that.
(11:20):
Um, but yeah, so.
I'd seen her in action.
I'd seen her be very sensitiveand, um, just really switched
on.
It's like, I kind of knew howshe worked, right?
And then she started a literaryagency later down the track.
And then I was like, look, I'mwriting some stuff.
And she was like, send itthrough.
(11:40):
And.
She was happy to take me on.
She's also like takes people onnot in a kind of you sign a
contract and that's it.
It's sort of more like I willsell each book that you produce
kind of thing.
Um, so that's how I knew, so Iknew her and I went, I trusted
her already and I went, that'show I went with her.
Natasha Rai (11:59):
Yeah.
And Kaya, even though youmight've known her, it still
comes down to the quality ofyour work.
Like she's not going to just sayyes, because she knows you.
Kaya Wilson (12:06):
Yeah.
And she has said no to mebefore.
So like there, I did have anovel that she was like, it's
the voice is wrong.
It's not, it doesn't work.
Um, so like, yeah, I also trustthat she will say no to me,
which is quite good.
Natasha Rai (12:17):
Yes.
Kaya Wilson (12:18):
Having said that I have introduced other people to
her, um, or.
And, or tried to, and then shesaid, just tell them to email me
on my website.
And I'm like, well, okay.
So that's how people get heranyway.
So me having an introduction.
So, okay.
I have introduced several peopleto her.
Some people, she was like, shewas just like, just tell them to
(12:39):
email me.
So that's like her blanketresponse.
One of them was a friend who shedidn't took on, um, whose book I
had read.
And then there was another one,which I think is one of the most
brilliant books.
That's coming out with adifferent publisher in New York
or with a publisher in New Yorkanyway this year and she said
no, she was too busy.
(13:00):
So whatever's on her website, ifyou email her and she says I'm
too busy, she means it.
Okay.
So my point what I'm trying tomake is that whatever she says
to me is the same as what shesays to a random person
approaching her.
Yeah.
So.
Although I knew her already, andshe had a social obligation to
at least respond to me, shestill also responds to
(13:22):
strangers.
Natasha Rai (13:23):
Yeah, she tells the truth.
Like she tells, I mean, shetells the same thing.
Yeah, it's not a specialtreatment or something.
Kaya Wilson (13:28):
The only thing it meant is I didn't shop around.
Natasha Rai (13:30):
Hmm.
Kaya Wilson (13:31):
Um, and.
Like, I haven't made tons ofmoney in writing, but like my
first offer for my memoir, um,she bargained it up to an amount
that exactly covered her, hercut.
So I don't know, I've already,she's, she's paid away already.
Natasha Rai (13:51):
Yeah.
I did.
So, so you had Jane on your sideand then she pitched you for the
Me Too.
Anthology.
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (14:00):
Um, she said, do you have anything you could put
in here?
Oh, I see.
Natasha Rai (14:02):
Right.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then after that, you senther your, uh, kind of.
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (14:13):
Well, you know, after that, then I, um, I
actually sent her some of theearly drafts.
So this is what I'm writing.
And she was like, great, getback to me when you've got a
full length book.
And that was actually one of thekey bits of advice, which I've
continued to use.
It's a, I'd say less advice thana strategy.
And it's to write your fulltext, have creative control, um,
(14:38):
and then submit it.
Um, because if you submit, forme particularly, that's what
worked.
I don't actually give thatadvice to everyone.
But if you, you know, say,submit a few chapters and then
you get a deal, they can oftenwant to influence your creative
direction.
Natasha Rai (14:53):
Oh, I see.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This must be very difficult ifyou're writing memoir.
Yeah.
Because it's your life, right?
Kaya Wilson (14:58):
I know, right?
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (15:00):
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (15:00):
And like, sometimes it can probably be gentle.
I mean, I heard about KateHolden's.
Um, publisher talk about shirtin my skin.
She's about about, um, uh, whatdo you call it?
Maybe.
middle class heroin addictionstory, uh, or sex work, like
sort of sensitive issues.
And her publisher said, um, Iwant your mom to be in every
(15:23):
chapter.
I was like, Oh God.
Um, but like, you know, sothat's, I guess, gentle or
advice that, um, maybe reallyworked, but like, That creative
control was important to me and,and, and since then when people
have tried to tell me how tosolve a literary problem, it
(15:44):
just doesn't work.
I'm really happy taking adviceon the problems, but I need to
come up with the solutions.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (15:51):
Well it's your work.
Kaya Wilson (15:53):
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Steve Minon (15:59):
Hello, my name's Steve Minon and I've written a
novel called First name, secondname, which is about four
generations of two migrantfamilies, one Chinese and one
Scottish who come to Australiaand become one.
The protagonist is a corpse whois on a nocturnal pilgrimage
back to the town of his birth infar north Queensland.
I started writing First Name,Second Name when I discovered
(16:22):
that my own second name, familyname, was an anglicised
amalgamation of two first names.
And it bothered me that myancestors had allowed this to
happen, and it made me thinkabout what a migrant is prepared
to lose when they come toAustralia and are so keen to fit
in.
And so the book is a reckoningwith the past, and it is about
intergenerational trauma.
(16:43):
It's about navigating a mixedrace existence where one race is
more accepted than the other.
But it's also about being aneternal outsider, because the
protagonist is on a search forhis sexual identity, and this
causes a family estrangement.
It's complex, but it has beendescribed by Michael Muhammad
Ahmed as being a portrait of whowe are now and who we are
(17:05):
destined to become.
And that's a lot to live up to,but if you get to read it, I
really hope you enjoy it.
It's out now via UQP.
Natasha Rai (17:17):
What happened after you, after you kind of got it
into a form that you were happywith and she felt was ready for
submission?
Kaya Wilson (17:24):
Yeah, so first up, that took longer than one wants
it to.
I was pretty impatient and thatjust took longer than I wanted
it and too bad.
Okay.
That's what happened.
So then she is kinda like amatchmaker, right?
So she picks.
Um, a publisher who she thinkswill understand and honor the
work, uh, with, and work wellwith the author.
(17:45):
And she picked Matilda Imla, whowas then at Picador, which is an
imprint of Pan Macmillan, andshe was Um, so I'm missing a
step actually.
So she picked her, but also inthe meantime, I applied for
every single emerging writer,competition, event, fellowship
(18:11):
that I, that I could find.
And I was shortlisted for abunch of them.
I ended up winning the only onethat had no money.
Um, but in the end, it was agreat deal.
And what.
Part of what the fellowshipoffered.
Uhhuh um, it was writing NewSouth Wales, uh, UNA Fellowship
and it offered weeks at Una and,uh, a manuscript assessment by
(18:35):
Matilda Ila with the publisherat Pam Macmillan.
And then, so she provided themanuscript assessment, I did
the, took the feedback that shegave me.
Natasha Rai (18:46):
Mm-hmm
Kaya Wilson (18:46):
Um, worked on it, and then Jane then resubmitted
it to her.
Natasha Rai (18:50):
Amazing.
So you already had thatconnection with her and that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's really important,isn't it?
Like so many of us competitions,even if there's no money, the
opportunity to get in front of apublisher or to have a
relationship is so important.
Kaya Wilson (19:06):
It's pretty priceless and it also means
like, so some of thosecompetitions lock you in or kind
of lock you in.
Right.
Or, or like, yeah, this was anassessment.
Great, knew who I was.
And then, yeah, you're notanonymous when you do send it.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (19:22):
And so after she resubmitted it, um, did you have
like a long wait?
Like, how did that play out?
Kaya Wilson (19:29):
That is hard to think about.
Um, I, I couldn't tell you howlong it was.
It would have been less than amonth.
Okay.
That's pretty good.
Yeah, I think that is prettygood.
Yeah, I think industry standardis probably within six weeks,
but I'm sure there's plenty thatgo over.
(19:50):
I've had some go over actuallyrecently, so.
Natasha Rai (19:55):
And it was a yes.
It was a yes, which was, it wasmagic.
Kaya Wilson (19:58):
Yeah.
So that was also a beautifulexperience.
It was like, okay, it all, itwas like, it was very stepped.
So it was like, okay, enter thecompetition and get the thing.
Have that relationship, work onit, take your time, resubmit,
and it was like, okay, you laythe ground, and then it was a
yes.
So, in a, in one sense, um, the,the, I didn't get a no, I didn't
(20:21):
experience a no with that firstbook, but like, it was almost
like, the groundwork had reallybeen laid.
So like any opportunity for a nowould have known about ahead of
time.
Natasha Rai (20:31):
Yeah, exactly.
And you did all that importantwork by entering those
competitions as well.
Kaya Wilson (20:36):
Yeah.
And I guess some of those werealmost like no's.
Um, but in a way it, like, itfelt smooth, even though it was
a sort of cumulative kind ofprocess.
Natasha Rai (20:46):
Yeah.
And what was the kind of processlike once you got that offer?
Was there more, another fewrounds of editing?
Kaya Wilson (20:54):
Yes.
So yeah, there was actuallyquite a big, cause I was like,
great, done.
Sweet.
No.
Also, I was like, okay, well, sonow I just like collect my
check.
Natasha Rai (21:07):
Open my champagne.
Kaya Wilson (21:11):
Um, and although it's, I do think it's something
actually Liz Duck Chong has saidto me, like, it's really
important to celebrate eachmilestone.
Uh, and I really try to honorthat, which is nice because
you're always on to the nextthing.
So it's always good to like stopand go, okay, yeah, great.
Let's, let's open that champagneor whatever it is.
Natasha Rai (21:28):
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (21:29):
Um, and.
Okay, so then they read it, thenthey sent it to, they were
actually on two, there were twomain editors.
So there was like one person whodid like, cool, like a deep
edit.
Um, and then there was anotherperson who kind of did another
(21:51):
type of edit and then there wasa line edit.
So the deep edit.
Was pretty full on, um, andrequire quite a lot of work
after that.
And I'd say, you know, probablyhad it for six weeks or so, but
like working on it quite a lotweekends then.
(22:15):
So I'd say maybe three or fourrounds of edits.
Natasha Rai (22:19):
Yeah.
And just, just on that, givenhow some writers can feel quite.
not precious, but veryprotective of their manuscripts,
and it's fiction.
How was that process for youbeing?
Kaya Wilson (22:32):
So for me, the process of editing, um, just for
context, I was actually doing itthe same time I was like
finishing my PhD, which is alsobeing edited.
Um, God.
Yeah.
And Honestly, I had a verysensitive, gentle editor for
(22:52):
the, for the memoir that washonestly like light and day
between the PhD where they justkind of, they've got no qualms
with red pen or telling youyou're wrong.
Okay.
It was actually the edit.
So for me, the editing processwas.
Really great actually feltcollaborative.
It felt like a little bit of arelief that was being taken care
of and there's like publishingworld.
So, yeah, so the editing waslovely.
(23:15):
It was much more of anemotional, difficult,
emotionally difficult thing whenI did a legal edit.
So, for me, because I name andtalk about real people that
aren't me, legal edit was quitehardcore.
Um, and.
So a lawyer literally said youlike, like highlighted certain
(23:38):
things and said, either youcan't say this or you need to
change it, or this is true, butit sounds a bit like you mean
something else.
Natasha Rai (23:47):
Okay.
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (23:48):
Um, and.
That felt, uh, that wasdifficult because it was very
much about telling my truth.
And so when someone says, Oh,you can't tell your truth, that
was a lot harder.
Natasha Rai (24:04):
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (24:04):
Um, and then I sort of settled it in the sense of
I'm telling my emotional truth.
Natasha Rai (24:12):
Nice.
Yeah.
I like that.
And, um, when did your memoirget put out into the world?
Kaya Wilson (24:20):
It's 2021.
Um, my first event was SydneyWriters Festival, which I think
was May.
Natasha Rai (24:28):
Oh, that's a big one.
Kaya Wilson (24:29):
It was a big one.
Sure.
Yeah.
So that, like, that was a lot.
Um, but it was cool.
It was really cool.
I was paired with, like, it wassuch a wild experience.
Like, I think back on it now, itwas probably my wildest, like,
Writer Festival events ever.
Um, and it was my first, uh, sothat was really exciting.
Also, it just felt very cool,having gone to Sydney Writers
(24:52):
Festival many times, it feltawesome being in it.
And also, you're sort ofguaranteed a bit of an audience,
which, um, well, I don't know ifyou are, but it felt like I was.
And I was like, I'm, I'm like,honestly, I'm sort of scared to
even throw parties for myself.
Like, I just don't have thatparticular confidence angle or
whatever it is.
(25:13):
Um, so yeah, I just.
I was like, Oh God, it was, itwas nerve wracking.
And like, when we're talkingabout the, the, I guess like the
confidence rainbow, I'm prettyconfident on stage and that's
not, that's okay for me.
But like the, the kind ofexperience of putting it into
(25:34):
the world just added a wholedifferent corner of the rainbow.
That was really Nerve wracking.
Yes.
Yeah.
And a lot of anxiety.
And, you know, you go to thislike hotel and it's like such a
cool hotel and like everyone'smaking a huge deal out of
everything.
You know, the programs there,there's like super famous people
in the hotel, you know, and thenyou like go to the event and
(25:56):
you're in the green room and Iwas just like trying to do my
breathing and.
You know, someone comes up to meand they're like chatting and
they were like, relaxed and I'mtrying to just like, hold it
together.
Natasha Rai (26:07):
Trying to keep it together.
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (26:08):
Yeah.
And it's like wild event withsomeone who'd written a book
about, um, uh, donor babies.
So, um, so children who areconceived using, uh, donate,
donated egg or sperm or whatevercombination.
And she was very anti.
donor babies and she had been adonor baby herself but hadn't
(26:30):
known about it until she was agrown up and so she had quite a
lot of um, she had a lot ofemotional baggage about the
whole experience but then I waslike this queer writer and then
we were being moderated by MaeveMarsden who yeah literally she's
lovely she's awesome and I'm solike no one else would have been
to handle this And because sheis both a donor baby and was
(26:54):
pregnant with a donor baby atthat moment.
And then this like journalistwho was really anti the whole
thing and then like me and I wasjust so relieved it was Maeve,
um, who I was familiar with andI just knew would be able to do
it.
Yeah.
Um, God, what an experience.
I know.
It was like, It was spicy andthe questions were wild and it
(27:15):
was a super queer audiencebecause of me and Maeve, I
guess.
And then, yeah, it was, it was,yeah, it was full on, but the,
but then like the partyafterwards was great, you know,
Natasha Rai (27:25):
yeah.
Get rid of all that tension atthe party.
Kaya Wilson (27:26):
Yeah, exactly.
Natasha Rai (27:29):
And so you've mentioned, Kaya, that you've
just submitted your nextmanuscript.
Is that fiction?
Kaya Wilson (27:36):
It is fiction.
Natasha Rai (27:38):
What can you say about that?
Kaya Wilson (27:40):
I'm like really comfortable talking about it.
I don't have a problem doingthat.
I don't know if there's likereasons why you shouldn't.
Natasha Rai (27:48):
I don't know either.
I've always been curious whenwriters are like, I can't talk
about it.
I'm like, why not?
Kaya Wilson (27:53):
Yeah.
I mean, I'm not under some kindof like, doesn't have a deal
yet.
So it's not like I'm under somekind of, I don't know.
Also, it's not like statesecrets.
Do you know what I mean?
This is, this is just.
Yeah.
Um, yes, I've written a novel,it's, um, it's young adult
classic coming of age tale.
It's a bit of a riff off Romeoand Juliet with like a young
(28:15):
queer character who, um, livingtheir life and then goes off to
tropical fruits festival up inLismore and explores themselves,
their body, other people'sbodies, and, and has a wild time
in a fairly like safe communitysituation, basically.
Natasha Rai (28:32):
Awesome.
And so how was that experiencefor you writing something like,
you know, fiction?
Kaya Wilson (28:38):
Yeah, it was, it was a totally different
experience.
I'd describe it as joyous.
Like, it was really fun.
I was super strategic in how Iset that out as well.
Like, I just feel like I'm in aplace in my life where I'm a bit
more in control of how my lifeworks.
I, uh, very intentionally, um,worked out how to apply for a
(29:00):
grant with Arts ACT and, youknow, did a lot of work and
research into how I couldoptimize it and how much I
should ask for.
And I, I ended up getting agrant.
Natasha Rai (29:12):
Congratulations.
Awesome.
Kaya Wilson (29:13):
Thanks.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it was 25, 000, which is notto be sneezed at and much more
than any advance.
Um, probably ever going to get.
So, um, yeah, I got that, wentfour days a week at my day job.
Uh, so wrote one day a week,which is a formula that worked
for me with my memoir.
At the time I was doing a PhD,so I had a bit more control over
my time, but yeah, so this timeI just, yeah, went four days a
(29:36):
week, uh, got a mentorship withKatherine Hayman.
Natasha Rai (29:40):
Oh, yes.
Kaya Wilson (29:41):
Yeah, a bit of an icon.
And, um, yeah, so did thementorship, wrote, wrote the
book, um, also did for the firsttime I really looked at books on
creativity, um, books on plotand storytelling and, you know,
Creativity in general.
Um, and that was a really kindof cool experience.
(30:04):
And it just felt honestly veryplayful and fun.
And like I had a license to kindof do whatever I wanted and I
loved it.
I had a great time.
Natasha Rai (30:14):
Yeah.
How wonderful.
And actually I was going to askyou about how you.
Balance work and writing.
But it sounds like, as you said,you were very strategic and
figured out what you needed todo, which was the extra day,
right?
Or that one day.
Kaya Wilson (30:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It works for me.
I need to have that dedicatedtime.
I don't work well if I'mflipping and flopping between
lots of other things.
I can't just like take lunch,break and do Right.
Right.
I mean, I can sort of try, butit doesn't suit me.
Yeah.
Um, and I think also, especiallyfor fiction, well, for me
anyway, there's this kind ofconcept of shutting everything
(30:46):
out so you can have freedom.
And like, I just have to like,really, like life is pressurized
for everyone.
Right.
And to do creative work underpressure just wasn't going to
work for me.
And so I just needed to totally,uh, isolate time so that I
could.
(31:07):
Really play and, um, createsomething without a kind of,
without that sort of pressure,you know, it's hard to describe
having read these creativitybooks.
Now, like, I'm starting tounderstand.
That's what helped it.
It helped me with my practicewas more than with the content,
(31:29):
um, and creating a writingpractice is something I really
understand now.
And it's It's so important, Ithink.
Natasha Rai (31:36):
So does that mean that before you started writing
this particular manuscript, youdidn't have a dedicated writing
practice?
Kaya Wilson (31:43):
Well, I say I came and went.
So like when I was doing my PhD,I was writing my memoir.
I did do, I wrote, I wrote,wrote on Mondays.
Um, but no one was stopping me,you know, like no one was
watching over my shoulder,whereas now I'm like, you know,
I work for an environmentalconsultancy and my time is
charged by the hour.
So I have to deliver 8 hours ofwork a day.
(32:03):
Um, so yeah, I had that one daya week practice during my PhD.
After I finished my PhD and Iwas working full time, I didn't
have a practice in that sense.
I sort of did here and there,one at a time off on weekends.
Then when I got back to thatFour days a week working one day
a week writing.
I was like, okay, this is it.
Natasha Rai (32:23):
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (32:23):
And that has worked.
Natasha Rai (32:26):
Yeah.
So are you going to try and keepthat practice going or are you
back to full time work?
Kaya Wilson (32:32):
Well, well, well spent the grant now.
Um, but I just couldn't bringmyself to go back to five days a
week.
Like I was like, I just thoughtabout it.
I tried to like visualize it.
I can't do it and I can affordit.
Um, and I was like, this is aprivilege that I am going to
enjoy.
And so I just work four days aweek still.
(32:54):
And that fifth day I either doan adventure, like go, like this
weekend going canoeing, or I'lldo writing from writing mode, or
I might use it, um, to go to anevent, say a writer's festival
or something.
But I do whatever it is.
I can't try and keep itintentional.
Natasha Rai (33:12):
Yeah, I really like that.
Kaya Wilson (33:14):
Don't do laundry.
What I'm trying to say is don'tdo boring stuff.
Natasha Rai (33:17):
Yeah, exactly.
You've got five other, six otherdays in fact to do that.
Um, and also in terms of whenyou started to write that, this
manuscript, um, Romeo A Tale ofFour Charms, I really love the
title.
Kaya Wilson (33:30):
Awesome.
Natasha Rai (33:30):
Um, did you feel any pressure or any type of, I
don't know, worry or fear ormisgivings about, you know,
moving from forms, memoir tofiction?
Kaya Wilson (33:44):
Honestly, I didn't really, I didn't think about it.
I mean, what, you know, havingtried to very intentionally take
on a creative practice, I just,and, and, and having, although I
have one day a week, it stillfeels like only one day a week.
Um, and I'm only going to spendit doing something that truly
drives me.
(34:05):
Like writing a book is hard and.
It has, you have to havesomething sustaining you and so
I just went with the thing thatstirred my, my soul.
Yeah, yeah.
So I wasn't nervous about movingto fiction at all.
And then when I like submittedit to my agent, she was like,
Oh, this is great.
(34:25):
She was like, Oh, I was a bitworried because moving from
memoir to fiction is reallyhard.
And I was like, Oh, um, I didn'tknow that.
Natasha Rai (34:32):
So it sounds like either, you know, cause having
spoken to lots of differentemerging writers and debut
writers, some of us, and I didat one point as well, there's a
real sense of urgency.
Like, Oh my God, if I don'twrite this thing, or if I don't
(34:53):
grab this opportunity, it's goneforever.
But it sounds like.
You don't have that, or you,you've figured out how to write
that?
Kaya Wilson (35:01):
I absolutely have a sense of urgency, um, but I
don't, but I try and keep it outthe door when I'm writing, if
that makes sense.
Yeah.
So I use, probably channel thaturgency.
We're trying to channel thaturgency into planning, or, you
know, getting those grant dates,or, um, that kind of thing.
(35:23):
And then I don't, I try to.
sort of negotiate with it whenit's things like, oh, this is
really topical and he's gettingout now, you know, but I had no
control over that.
So yeah, I, yeah, I do have thatsense of urgency in many ways,
but I definitely try and keep itout, out of the door.
Natasha Rai (35:41):
And it sounds like you've gotten quite good at
channeling it into things youcan do like g rant submissions.
Kaya Wilson (35:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like those things are hardand Uh, artists are always bad
at them usually, but you've gotto like, I don't know, try and
like use your skills.
Like I'm 40 now, I'veaccumulated other skills, I can
do admin and like, yeah, so tryand channel that kind of
logistical energy into that.
Natasha Rai (36:06):
So we are actually nearly out of time and you've
actually given me lots and lotsof good tips, but, uh, the final
question I have is, do you haveany top tip or tips for any, for
emerging writers?
Kaya Wilson (36:19):
Yeah, I mean, when I have said those things in
response to your questions, youknow, I think about, oh, well,
that's what Stephen King talkedabout, you know, right?
The first draft with the doorclosed, second draft, the door
open.
Um, it was kind of helpfulconceptually, but I say the most
helpful thing.
I think is developing thatpractice.
(36:40):
So, um, lots of people will tellyou what works for them or they
will tell you what is absolutelyyou must do.
But it is about what works foryou.
So if you, um, if you've gotsmall Children or whatever.
Working 5 a.
m.
7 a.
m.
might be your time for practiceor, or like, you just have to
work it out so that you, youcome to the table, you come to
(37:04):
the desk or the, or whatever itis with regularity, however
short or infrequent it is tojust.
Or not some commitment that in away that works for you.
Natasha Rai (37:17):
Exactly.
Because I think people gettrapped into the comparison.
Like, oh, well, so and so canwrite five days a week, but I
can only write two.
It doesn't matter.
Kaya Wilson (37:26):
Yeah.
You just got to find thatpractice and like you will make
progress even if it isincremental.
Natasha Rai (37:31):
Exactly.
Progress is progress,
Kaya Wilson (37:33):
right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (37:36):
Well, thank you so much.
It's been absolutely delightfulhaving this chat with you.
Kaya Wilson (37:40):
Me too.
I really enjoyed it.
The only thing I have to holdback is I want to ask you too, I
want to know what your practiceis.
Natasha Rai (37:46):
We'll do that offline.
Okay.
Um, but honestly, best of luckwith your, um, manuscript and,
um, I hope it's not long beforewe see it on shelves.
Kaya Wilson (37:54):
Yeah, neither.
Neither.
Thank you so much.
It was a real pleasure.
Natasha Rai (37:57):
Thanks, Kaya.
Tina Strachan (37:58):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
Podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new eps drop.
And to keep up to date with whatthe pod is doing, you can also
find us on Instagram.
This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover
by your host, Natasha Rai.
I'll be bringing you even moredebut and season authors as they
talk about their path topublication.
Madeleine Cleary (00:26):
The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters which it's recorded
on.
and pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging.
Natasha Rai (00:39):
Kaya Wilson is a writer, tsunami scientist, and
lover of all things ocean, whosomehow finds himself living in
Canberra.
Their first book, As BeautifulAs Any Other, was listed by The
Guardian as one of the bestbooks of 2021 and shortlisted
for the 2022 ACT Book of theYear.
Their second book, a queercoming of age novel, Romeo, A
(01:02):
Tale of Four Jumps, is insubmission.
Hi, Kaya.
Welcome to the Book DealPodcast.
Kaya Wilson (01:09):
Hello.
Thank you for having me.
Natasha Rai (01:11):
My absolute pleasure.
Um, so we're here today to talka little bit about your
publishing journey, um, and howyou got your first deal.
But before we get to that, Iwould love to hear your elevator
pitch.
Yep, straight up.
Kaya Wilson (01:28):
Yeah, look, I've never been great at the elevator
pitch.
But I'll give it a shot.
Um, the other day I called itemo memoir.
Um, look, it's a, it's, I'mactually.
You know, it's been a few yearsnow and I was looking back at it
and I feel really proud of it,right?
It's a, it's a memoir, it'sbroken up into thematic
chapters, and it sort of covers,um, the period of time in,
(01:52):
probably one of the moreformative times of my life, um,
when I began my gendertransition, um, sort of
emotionally and medically, andit's sort of about everything
that got me there, and thenwhere I thought it was going to
take me, essentially.
Natasha Rai (02:10):
Thanks.
That's a great pitch.
Kaya Wilson (02:11):
Thanks.
Yeah, like I did an event withDiana Reid.
Um, and she was like going offthe charts, it was successful
with Love and Virtue at thetime.
And she had this pitch that wasrehearsed, nailed, managed.
And that is something I want todo for my next book.
I want to, it's my new bookresolution to get that pitch
(02:32):
nailed in a way that.
You know, everyone canunderstand.
He doesn't have any idea whatyou're talking about.
Natasha Rai (02:38):
Yeah, I think it's, I find it really hard not to
roll my eyes and make a stupidface.
So
Kaya Wilson (02:45):
you've got one, but you've got one prepared though.
That's half the battle.
Natasha Rai (02:48):
Well, I've had to, you know, cause this is so close
to release.
So I've
Kaya Wilson (02:52):
had to kind of practice it a lot.
Absolutely.
And especially like fiction.
Yeah.
If you can, like, I would loveto get you to do it now, but I'm
not going to do that becauseit's not your job today, but I
look forward to hearing it liveon radio someday.
Exactly.
Natasha Rai (03:06):
Some other time.
Um, so I don't know if youremember, but, um, you gave me
some excellent advice many, manyyears ago.
So you and I had a, we both hadpieces in that Me Too anthology
that came out in 2017, I think,or 2018.
Yeah.
And we were doing an eventtogether.
And before we went on stage, yousaid to me, just be careful
(03:27):
because when you're, you know,when you're up there and
there's.
A lot of lovely supportivepeople around, you might say a
bit too much, or you might sharea bit too much about yourself
and later on you think, Oh, Ireally didn't want to do that.
That's interesting.
So I was thinking.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I was like going
Kaya Wilson (03:44):
back in time.
Yeah.
Go on.
Natasha Rai (03:45):
So I was thinking about that advice that you gave
me and I was wondering if thatplays or had a part to play when
you approach your memoir, likehow do you even start something
like that kind of a project?
Kaya Wilson (03:57):
Yeah, I mean, there's a boundaries, right?
We're talking about boundaries.
And I think, yeah, at the time,like, you know, it's part of
everyone's psychologicalevolution.
And it's interesting for me tohear from you what I said at
that time, because I think I wasreally learning a new type of
boundaries, especially in termsof being In the public eye to a
small degree with the book,absolutely.
(04:21):
I do think of it as a boundarytext, even though there are some
quite like exposing orvulnerable elements to it and
moments that not everyone'sgoing to share.
And, um, I think there's a fewthings in that.
And there's lots of people whoapproach memoir in different
ways, right?
So some people, it seems to bethat everyone who, most people
(04:43):
who write memoir find a way tosay what they need to say, and
that might be eitherfictionalizing it or, or, uh,
you know, classing it as autofiction or, or something that
gives them a little bit of, uh,liberation from mm-hmm You know,
(05:04):
being exposed or they dosomething a bit like what I sort
of did was like, write it firstand then come back to sort of
edit what you don't want to bemade public.
And there are certain thingsabout being from a slightly
marginalized identity that canfeel exposing in some ways, or
(05:24):
you feel like are overexposed ingeneral.
Um, and you feel like you don'twant that.
I felt like I didn't want peopleto fixate on or.
I felt needed to be presented ina certain way because we don't,
we don't live in a vacuum.
Right.
Um, yeah, there are some thingsthat I did couch somewhat and,
(05:45):
and that's also kind ofinteresting for me because some
of those things I did hold backon, um, really came out of my
fiction.
So, um, I think.
The things that need to comeout, come out at some point.
It's just, you need to controlhow, how it's done in a way that
you feel comfortable with.
And so sometimes your boundariesevolve, right?
Um, and.
(06:07):
You know, I don't know how youfeel about that Me Too
experience.
And it's interesting thinkingback now, like, wow, like the Me
Too movement, that was quite aheady time, wasn't it?
Natasha Rai (06:18):
It really was.
Kaya Wilson (06:19):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (06:20):
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (06:23):
It feels almost quaint in this day and age.
Yeah.
But yeah, so boundaries,important.
Hold them and also establishthem before you publish.
That's the other thing.
Natasha Rai (06:36):
So for you, Kaya, you wrote, you wrote it, and
then once you kind of went backto it, did the themes emerge or
did you have themes in mind thatyou then moved things around to
fit?
Kaya Wilson (06:49):
Yeah, themes absolutely emerged.
So I actually wrote it, um, in amore conventional chronological
way.
It's probably a series of like80 essays of about like 1000
words each.
And I went back and I just triedan experiment one day where I
tried to weave two thingstogether.
And, um, I wrote one 5, 000 wordchapter and I was like, Oh, this
(07:11):
is good and it was thematic.
And I was like, Oh, thematicworks.
I was like, Oh, no, I have towrite the whole thing again.
And then I wrote the whole thingagain.
And it just, um, the themes tome, what rose to the top, you
know, it was the, the A storyand B story.
It was the, the real meaningkind of came to the top when I
made it thematic.
(07:33):
Um, And yeah, so sometimes whenthings are thematic, you can
hide some of the content.
Natasha Rai (07:39):
Yeah, yeah.
And you know, for some of ourlisteners who are considering or
who are working on memoir, howdid you look after yourself?
Well, because I assume thatparts of it must have been quite
difficult to write.
Kaya Wilson (07:52):
Yeah, absolutely.
It was part of writing.
It was part of looking out tomyself.
If that makes sense.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (07:59):
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (08:00):
Um, I mean, that's not my entire mental health
strategy.
Natasha Rai (08:05):
It's a good one though.
It's almost like a catharsis,right?
Kaya Wilson (08:09):
Yeah.
And you know, it's making senseof things.
And it was a way that I havemade sense of things a lot of
people do get that from writingthings.
I mean, I did also have therapy,et cetera.
Um, but.
Yeah, it was so important to myway of understanding myself and
the world at the time that it'squite hard to even separate, um,
(08:32):
separate it out.
Natasha Rai (08:34):
So you write this memoir, you put it into a, an
order that makes sense to you interms of themes.
So tell me a little bit aboutyour publication journey after
that, because I know that you'vehad lots of short pieces and
lots of publications alreadyunder your belt by that point.
Kaya Wilson (08:51):
Thanks.
Yeah.
So that was a, I'd saystrategic, actually, the short
pieces.
Um, and when we talk aboutboundaries, some of the short
pieces of the things that Iprobably feel the weirdest
about, but, and then also likenow that kind of like first
person opinion, PC type stuff,I'd barely even read it anymore.
(09:13):
Like, I think it was just forme, legit a phase or even like
maybe a phase is.
In media at the time that I wasa bit more engaged in, um, but,
but that aside, the emotional orattachment to it aside, getting
your, some things published issuper important, I think, for
(09:34):
me, it worked right.
So I had.
Um, short things publishedonline, a couple in print and
then two anthologies and then abook.
So the, for me, the key, thelinchpin to all of it was having
an agent.
Um, but it goes the same with anagent or not, right?
(09:55):
Because you're either you arepitching yourself or the agent
is pitching you.
So you still need to havesomething to pitch, um, having
something published means thatnot just you, but someone else
has said, Oh, we think this isgood enough to publish.
Um, my agent, uh, got me sortof.
(10:16):
Well, it kind of got me theinvitation to apply or send a
piece in for the Me Tooanthology.
Natasha Rai (10:23):
So before we go into that, can we just take a
step back?
How did you get your agent?
A lot of our listeners are veryinterested.
Kaya Wilson (10:30):
So yeah, I mean, this is probably, like I knew
her socially.
Right.
And that's kind of an annoyingthing to hear because it sounds
like all who, you know, orhaving connections.
Um, and I did know someone semifamous watching someone pretty
famous who she was the publicistfor, so she knew all about like
(10:56):
publishing.
Um, so my agent is Jane Novak.
She knew about publishing.
She was a publicist at the timewhen I first met her.
I really liked her.
I saw her in action with, uh,well known writers in a
publicist role, but for likepeople who are stratospheric,
they kind of have a publicistwho follows them around.
Um, I don't have that.
(11:20):
Um, but yeah, so.
I'd seen her in action.
I'd seen her be very sensitiveand, um, just really switched
on.
It's like, I kind of knew howshe worked, right?
And then she started a literaryagency later down the track.
And then I was like, look, I'mwriting some stuff.
And she was like, send itthrough.
(11:40):
And.
She was happy to take me on.
She's also like takes people onnot in a kind of you sign a
contract and that's it.
It's sort of more like I willsell each book that you produce
kind of thing.
Um, so that's how I knew, so Iknew her and I went, I trusted
her already and I went, that'show I went with her.
Natasha Rai (11:59):
Yeah.
And Kaya, even though youmight've known her, it still
comes down to the quality ofyour work.
Like she's not going to just sayyes, because she knows you.
Kaya Wilson (12:06):
Yeah.
And she has said no to mebefore.
So like there, I did have anovel that she was like, it's
the voice is wrong.
It's not, it doesn't work.
Um, so like, yeah, I also trustthat she will say no to me,
which is quite good.
Natasha Rai (12:17):
Yes.
Kaya Wilson (12:18):
Having said that I have introduced other people to
her, um, or.
And, or tried to, and then shesaid, just tell them to email me
on my website.
And I'm like, well, okay.
So that's how people get heranyway.
So me having an introduction.
So, okay.
I have introduced several peopleto her.
Some people, she was like, shewas just like, just tell them to
(12:39):
email me.
So that's like her blanketresponse.
One of them was a friend who shedidn't took on, um, whose book I
had read.
And then there was another one,which I think is one of the most
brilliant books.
That's coming out with adifferent publisher in New York
or with a publisher in New Yorkanyway this year and she said
no, she was too busy.
(13:00):
So whatever's on her website, ifyou email her and she says I'm
too busy, she means it.
Okay.
So my point what I'm trying tomake is that whatever she says
to me is the same as what shesays to a random person
approaching her.
Yeah.
So.
Although I knew her already, andshe had a social obligation to
at least respond to me, shestill also responds to
(13:22):
strangers.
Natasha Rai (13:23):
Yeah, she tells the truth.
Like she tells, I mean, shetells the same thing.
Yeah, it's not a specialtreatment or something.
Kaya Wilson (13:28):
The only thing it meant is I didn't shop around.
Natasha Rai (13:30):
Hmm.
Kaya Wilson (13:31):
Um, and.
Like, I haven't made tons ofmoney in writing, but like my
first offer for my memoir, um,she bargained it up to an amount
that exactly covered her, hercut.
So I don't know, I've already,she's, she's paid away already.
Natasha Rai (13:51):
Yeah.
I did.
So, so you had Jane on your sideand then she pitched you for the
Me Too.
Anthology.
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (14:00):
Um, she said, do you have anything you could put
in here?
Oh, I see.
Natasha Rai (14:02):
Right.
Okay.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And then after that, you senther your, uh, kind of.
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (14:13):
Well, you know, after that, then I, um, I
actually sent her some of theearly drafts.
So this is what I'm writing.
And she was like, great, getback to me when you've got a
full length book.
And that was actually one of thekey bits of advice, which I've
continued to use.
It's a, I'd say less advice thana strategy.
And it's to write your fulltext, have creative control, um,
(14:38):
and then submit it.
Um, because if you submit, forme particularly, that's what
worked.
I don't actually give thatadvice to everyone.
But if you, you know, say,submit a few chapters and then
you get a deal, they can oftenwant to influence your creative
direction.
Natasha Rai (14:53):
Oh, I see.
Yeah.
Yeah.
This must be very difficult ifyou're writing memoir.
Yeah.
Because it's your life, right?
Kaya Wilson (14:58):
I know, right?
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (15:00):
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (15:00):
And like, sometimes it can probably be gentle.
I mean, I heard about KateHolden's.
Um, publisher talk about shirtin my skin.
She's about about, um, uh, whatdo you call it?
Maybe.
middle class heroin addictionstory, uh, or sex work, like
sort of sensitive issues.
And her publisher said, um, Iwant your mom to be in every
(15:23):
chapter.
I was like, Oh God.
Um, but like, you know, sothat's, I guess, gentle or
advice that, um, maybe reallyworked, but like, That creative
control was important to me and,and, and since then when people
have tried to tell me how tosolve a literary problem, it
(15:44):
just doesn't work.
I'm really happy taking adviceon the problems, but I need to
come up with the solutions.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (15:51):
Well it's your work.
Kaya Wilson (15:53):
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Steve Minon (15:59):
Hello, my name's Steve Minon and I've written a
novel called First name, secondname, which is about four
generations of two migrantfamilies, one Chinese and one
Scottish who come to Australiaand become one.
The protagonist is a corpse whois on a nocturnal pilgrimage
back to the town of his birth infar north Queensland.
I started writing First Name,Second Name when I discovered
(16:22):
that my own second name, familyname, was an anglicised
amalgamation of two first names.
And it bothered me that myancestors had allowed this to
happen, and it made me thinkabout what a migrant is prepared
to lose when they come toAustralia and are so keen to fit
in.
And so the book is a reckoningwith the past, and it is about
intergenerational trauma.
(16:43):
It's about navigating a mixedrace existence where one race is
more accepted than the other.
But it's also about being aneternal outsider, because the
protagonist is on a search forhis sexual identity, and this
causes a family estrangement.
It's complex, but it has beendescribed by Michael Muhammad
Ahmed as being a portrait of whowe are now and who we are
(17:05):
destined to become.
And that's a lot to live up to,but if you get to read it, I
really hope you enjoy it.
It's out now via UQP.
Natasha Rai (17:17):
What happened after you, after you kind of got it
into a form that you were happywith and she felt was ready for
submission?
Kaya Wilson (17:24):
Yeah, so first up, that took longer than one wants
it to.
I was pretty impatient and thatjust took longer than I wanted
it and too bad.
Okay.
That's what happened.
So then she is kinda like amatchmaker, right?
So she picks.
Um, a publisher who she thinkswill understand and honor the
work, uh, with, and work wellwith the author.
(17:45):
And she picked Matilda Imla, whowas then at Picador, which is an
imprint of Pan Macmillan, andshe was Um, so I'm missing a
step actually.
So she picked her, but also inthe meantime, I applied for
every single emerging writer,competition, event, fellowship
(18:11):
that I, that I could find.
And I was shortlisted for abunch of them.
I ended up winning the only onethat had no money.
Um, but in the end, it was agreat deal.
And what.
Part of what the fellowshipoffered.
Uhhuh um, it was writing NewSouth Wales, uh, UNA Fellowship
and it offered weeks at Una and,uh, a manuscript assessment by
(18:35):
Matilda Ila with the publisherat Pam Macmillan.
And then, so she provided themanuscript assessment, I did
the, took the feedback that shegave me.
Natasha Rai (18:46):
Mm-hmm
Kaya Wilson (18:46):
Um, worked on it, and then Jane then resubmitted
it to her.
Natasha Rai (18:50):
Amazing.
So you already had thatconnection with her and that.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's really important,isn't it?
Like so many of us competitions,even if there's no money, the
opportunity to get in front of apublisher or to have a
relationship is so important.
Kaya Wilson (19:06):
It's pretty priceless and it also means
like, so some of thosecompetitions lock you in or kind
of lock you in.
Right.
Or, or like, yeah, this was anassessment.
Great, knew who I was.
And then, yeah, you're notanonymous when you do send it.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (19:22):
And so after she resubmitted it, um, did you have
like a long wait?
Like, how did that play out?
Kaya Wilson (19:29):
That is hard to think about.
Um, I, I couldn't tell you howlong it was.
It would have been less than amonth.
Okay.
That's pretty good.
Yeah, I think that is prettygood.
Yeah, I think industry standardis probably within six weeks,
but I'm sure there's plenty thatgo over.
(19:50):
I've had some go over actuallyrecently, so.
Natasha Rai (19:55):
And it was a yes.
It was a yes, which was, it wasmagic.
Kaya Wilson (19:58):
Yeah.
So that was also a beautifulexperience.
It was like, okay, it all, itwas like, it was very stepped.
So it was like, okay, enter thecompetition and get the thing.
Have that relationship, work onit, take your time, resubmit,
and it was like, okay, you laythe ground, and then it was a
yes.
So, in a, in one sense, um, the,the, I didn't get a no, I didn't
(20:21):
experience a no with that firstbook, but like, it was almost
like, the groundwork had reallybeen laid.
So like any opportunity for a nowould have known about ahead of
time.
Natasha Rai (20:31):
Yeah, exactly.
And you did all that importantwork by entering those
competitions as well.
Kaya Wilson (20:36):
Yeah.
And I guess some of those werealmost like no's.
Um, but in a way it, like, itfelt smooth, even though it was
a sort of cumulative kind ofprocess.
Natasha Rai (20:46):
Yeah.
And what was the kind of processlike once you got that offer?
Was there more, another fewrounds of editing?
Kaya Wilson (20:54):
Yes.
So yeah, there was actuallyquite a big, cause I was like,
great, done.
Sweet.
No.
Also, I was like, okay, well, sonow I just like collect my
check.
Natasha Rai (21:07):
Open my champagne.
Kaya Wilson (21:11):
Um, and although it's, I do think it's something
actually Liz Duck Chong has saidto me, like, it's really
important to celebrate eachmilestone.
Uh, and I really try to honorthat, which is nice because
you're always on to the nextthing.
So it's always good to like stopand go, okay, yeah, great.
Let's, let's open that champagneor whatever it is.
Natasha Rai (21:28):
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (21:29):
Um, and.
Okay, so then they read it, thenthey sent it to, they were
actually on two, there were twomain editors.
So there was like one person whodid like, cool, like a deep
edit.
Um, and then there was anotherperson who kind of did another
(21:51):
type of edit and then there wasa line edit.
So the deep edit.
Was pretty full on, um, andrequire quite a lot of work
after that.
And I'd say, you know, probablyhad it for six weeks or so, but
like working on it quite a lotweekends then.
(22:15):
So I'd say maybe three or fourrounds of edits.
Natasha Rai (22:19):
Yeah.
And just, just on that, givenhow some writers can feel quite.
not precious, but veryprotective of their manuscripts,
and it's fiction.
How was that process for youbeing?
Kaya Wilson (22:32):
So for me, the process of editing, um, just for
context, I was actually doing itthe same time I was like
finishing my PhD, which is alsobeing edited.
Um, God.
Yeah.
And Honestly, I had a verysensitive, gentle editor for
(22:52):
the, for the memoir that washonestly like light and day
between the PhD where they justkind of, they've got no qualms
with red pen or telling youyou're wrong.
Okay.
It was actually the edit.
So for me, the editing processwas.
Really great actually feltcollaborative.
It felt like a little bit of arelief that was being taken care
of and there's like publishingworld.
So, yeah, so the editing waslovely.
(23:15):
It was much more of anemotional, difficult,
emotionally difficult thing whenI did a legal edit.
So, for me, because I name andtalk about real people that
aren't me, legal edit was quitehardcore.
Um, and.
So a lawyer literally said youlike, like highlighted certain
(23:38):
things and said, either youcan't say this or you need to
change it, or this is true, butit sounds a bit like you mean
something else.
Natasha Rai (23:47):
Okay.
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (23:48):
Um, and.
That felt, uh, that wasdifficult because it was very
much about telling my truth.
And so when someone says, Oh,you can't tell your truth, that
was a lot harder.
Natasha Rai (24:04):
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (24:04):
Um, and then I sort of settled it in the sense of
I'm telling my emotional truth.
Natasha Rai (24:12):
Nice.
Yeah.
I like that.
And, um, when did your memoirget put out into the world?
Kaya Wilson (24:20):
It's 2021.
Um, my first event was SydneyWriters Festival, which I think
was May.
Natasha Rai (24:28):
Oh, that's a big one.
Kaya Wilson (24:29):
It was a big one.
Sure.
Yeah.
So that, like, that was a lot.
Um, but it was cool.
It was really cool.
I was paired with, like, it wassuch a wild experience.
Like, I think back on it now, itwas probably my wildest, like,
Writer Festival events ever.
Um, and it was my first, uh, sothat was really exciting.
Also, it just felt very cool,having gone to Sydney Writers
(24:52):
Festival many times, it feltawesome being in it.
And also, you're sort ofguaranteed a bit of an audience,
which, um, well, I don't know ifyou are, but it felt like I was.
And I was like, I'm, I'm like,honestly, I'm sort of scared to
even throw parties for myself.
Like, I just don't have thatparticular confidence angle or
whatever it is.
(25:13):
Um, so yeah, I just.
I was like, Oh God, it was, itwas nerve wracking.
And like, when we're talkingabout the, the, I guess like the
confidence rainbow, I'm prettyconfident on stage and that's
not, that's okay for me.
But like the, the kind ofexperience of putting it into
(25:34):
the world just added a wholedifferent corner of the rainbow.
That was really Nerve wracking.
Yes.
Yeah.
And a lot of anxiety.
And, you know, you go to thislike hotel and it's like such a
cool hotel and like everyone'smaking a huge deal out of
everything.
You know, the programs there,there's like super famous people
in the hotel, you know, and thenyou like go to the event and
(25:56):
you're in the green room and Iwas just like trying to do my
breathing and.
You know, someone comes up to meand they're like chatting and
they were like, relaxed and I'mtrying to just like, hold it
together.
Natasha Rai (26:07):
Trying to keep it together.
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (26:08):
Yeah.
And it's like wild event withsomeone who'd written a book
about, um, uh, donor babies.
So, um, so children who areconceived using, uh, donate,
donated egg or sperm or whatevercombination.
And she was very anti.
donor babies and she had been adonor baby herself but hadn't
(26:30):
known about it until she was agrown up and so she had quite a
lot of um, she had a lot ofemotional baggage about the
whole experience but then I waslike this queer writer and then
we were being moderated by MaeveMarsden who yeah literally she's
lovely she's awesome and I'm solike no one else would have been
to handle this And because sheis both a donor baby and was
(26:54):
pregnant with a donor baby atthat moment.
And then this like journalistwho was really anti the whole
thing and then like me and I wasjust so relieved it was Maeve,
um, who I was familiar with andI just knew would be able to do
it.
Yeah.
Um, God, what an experience.
I know.
It was like, It was spicy andthe questions were wild and it
(27:15):
was a super queer audiencebecause of me and Maeve, I
guess.
And then, yeah, it was, it was,yeah, it was full on, but the,
but then like the partyafterwards was great, you know,
Natasha Rai (27:25):
yeah.
Get rid of all that tension atthe party.
Kaya Wilson (27:26):
Yeah, exactly.
Natasha Rai (27:29):
And so you've mentioned, Kaya, that you've
just submitted your nextmanuscript.
Is that fiction?
Kaya Wilson (27:36):
It is fiction.
Natasha Rai (27:38):
What can you say about that?
Kaya Wilson (27:40):
I'm like really comfortable talking about it.
I don't have a problem doingthat.
I don't know if there's likereasons why you shouldn't.
Natasha Rai (27:48):
I don't know either.
I've always been curious whenwriters are like, I can't talk
about it.
I'm like, why not?
Kaya Wilson (27:53):
Yeah.
I mean, I'm not under some kindof like, doesn't have a deal
yet.
So it's not like I'm under somekind of, I don't know.
Also, it's not like statesecrets.
Do you know what I mean?
This is, this is just.
Yeah.
Um, yes, I've written a novel,it's, um, it's young adult
classic coming of age tale.
It's a bit of a riff off Romeoand Juliet with like a young
(28:15):
queer character who, um, livingtheir life and then goes off to
tropical fruits festival up inLismore and explores themselves,
their body, other people'sbodies, and, and has a wild time
in a fairly like safe communitysituation, basically.
Natasha Rai (28:32):
Awesome.
And so how was that experiencefor you writing something like,
you know, fiction?
Kaya Wilson (28:38):
Yeah, it was, it was a totally different
experience.
I'd describe it as joyous.
Like, it was really fun.
I was super strategic in how Iset that out as well.
Like, I just feel like I'm in aplace in my life where I'm a bit
more in control of how my lifeworks.
I, uh, very intentionally, um,worked out how to apply for a
(29:00):
grant with Arts ACT and, youknow, did a lot of work and
research into how I couldoptimize it and how much I
should ask for.
And I, I ended up getting agrant.
Natasha Rai (29:12):
Congratulations.
Awesome.
Kaya Wilson (29:13):
Thanks.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So it was 25, 000, which is notto be sneezed at and much more
than any advance.
Um, probably ever going to get.
So, um, yeah, I got that, wentfour days a week at my day job.
Uh, so wrote one day a week,which is a formula that worked
for me with my memoir.
At the time I was doing a PhD,so I had a bit more control over
my time, but yeah, so this timeI just, yeah, went four days a
(29:36):
week, uh, got a mentorship withKatherine Hayman.
Natasha Rai (29:40):
Oh, yes.
Kaya Wilson (29:41):
Yeah, a bit of an icon.
And, um, yeah, so did thementorship, wrote, wrote the
book, um, also did for the firsttime I really looked at books on
creativity, um, books on plotand storytelling and, you know,
Creativity in general.
Um, and that was a really kindof cool experience.
(30:04):
And it just felt honestly veryplayful and fun.
And like I had a license to kindof do whatever I wanted and I
loved it.
I had a great time.
Natasha Rai (30:14):
Yeah.
How wonderful.
And actually I was going to askyou about how you.
Balance work and writing.
But it sounds like, as you said,you were very strategic and
figured out what you needed todo, which was the extra day,
right?
Or that one day.
Kaya Wilson (30:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It works for me.
I need to have that dedicatedtime.
I don't work well if I'mflipping and flopping between
lots of other things.
I can't just like take lunch,break and do Right.
Right.
I mean, I can sort of try, butit doesn't suit me.
Yeah.
Um, and I think also, especiallyfor fiction, well, for me
anyway, there's this kind ofconcept of shutting everything
(30:46):
out so you can have freedom.
And like, I just have to like,really, like life is pressurized
for everyone.
Right.
And to do creative work underpressure just wasn't going to
work for me.
And so I just needed to totally,uh, isolate time so that I
could.
(31:07):
Really play and, um, createsomething without a kind of,
without that sort of pressure,you know, it's hard to describe
having read these creativitybooks.
Now, like, I'm starting tounderstand.
That's what helped it.
It helped me with my practicewas more than with the content,
(31:29):
um, and creating a writingpractice is something I really
understand now.
And it's It's so important, Ithink.
Natasha Rai (31:36):
So does that mean that before you started writing
this particular manuscript, youdidn't have a dedicated writing
practice?
Kaya Wilson (31:43):
Well, I say I came and went.
So like when I was doing my PhD,I was writing my memoir.
I did do, I wrote, I wrote,wrote on Mondays.
Um, but no one was stopping me,you know, like no one was
watching over my shoulder,whereas now I'm like, you know,
I work for an environmentalconsultancy and my time is
charged by the hour.
So I have to deliver 8 hours ofwork a day.
(32:03):
Um, so yeah, I had that one daya week practice during my PhD.
After I finished my PhD and Iwas working full time, I didn't
have a practice in that sense.
I sort of did here and there,one at a time off on weekends.
Then when I got back to thatFour days a week working one day
a week writing.
I was like, okay, this is it.
Natasha Rai (32:23):
Yeah.
Kaya Wilson (32:23):
And that has worked.
Natasha Rai (32:26):
Yeah.
So are you going to try and keepthat practice going or are you
back to full time work?
Kaya Wilson (32:32):
Well, well, well spent the grant now.
Um, but I just couldn't bringmyself to go back to five days a
week.
Like I was like, I just thoughtabout it.
I tried to like visualize it.
I can't do it and I can affordit.
Um, and I was like, this is aprivilege that I am going to
enjoy.
And so I just work four days aweek still.
(32:54):
And that fifth day I either doan adventure, like go, like this
weekend going canoeing, or I'lldo writing from writing mode, or
I might use it, um, to go to anevent, say a writer's festival
or something.
But I do whatever it is.
I can't try and keep itintentional.
Natasha Rai (33:12):
Yeah, I really like that.
Kaya Wilson (33:14):
Don't do laundry.
What I'm trying to say is don'tdo boring stuff.
Natasha Rai (33:17):
Yeah, exactly.
You've got five other, six otherdays in fact to do that.
Um, and also in terms of whenyou started to write that, this
manuscript, um, Romeo A Tale ofFour Charms, I really love the
title.
Kaya Wilson (33:30):
Awesome.
Natasha Rai (33:30):
Um, did you feel any pressure or any type of, I
don't know, worry or fear ormisgivings about, you know,
moving from forms, memoir tofiction?
Kaya Wilson (33:44):
Honestly, I didn't really, I didn't think about it.
I mean, what, you know, havingtried to very intentionally take
on a creative practice, I just,and, and, and having, although I
have one day a week, it stillfeels like only one day a week.
Um, and I'm only going to spendit doing something that truly
drives me.
(34:05):
Like writing a book is hard and.
It has, you have to havesomething sustaining you and so
I just went with the thing thatstirred my, my soul.
Yeah, yeah.
So I wasn't nervous about movingto fiction at all.
And then when I like submittedit to my agent, she was like,
Oh, this is great.
(34:25):
She was like, Oh, I was a bitworried because moving from
memoir to fiction is reallyhard.
And I was like, Oh, um, I didn'tknow that.
Natasha Rai (34:32):
So it sounds like either, you know, cause having
spoken to lots of differentemerging writers and debut
writers, some of us, and I didat one point as well, there's a
real sense of urgency.
Like, Oh my God, if I don'twrite this thing, or if I don't
(34:53):
grab this opportunity, it's goneforever.
But it sounds like.
You don't have that, or you,you've figured out how to write
that?
Kaya Wilson (35:01):
I absolutely have a sense of urgency, um, but I
don't, but I try and keep it outthe door when I'm writing, if
that makes sense.
Yeah.
So I use, probably channel thaturgency.
We're trying to channel thaturgency into planning, or, you
know, getting those grant dates,or, um, that kind of thing.
(35:23):
And then I don't, I try to.
sort of negotiate with it whenit's things like, oh, this is
really topical and he's gettingout now, you know, but I had no
control over that.
So yeah, I, yeah, I do have thatsense of urgency in many ways,
but I definitely try and keep itout, out of the door.
Natasha Rai (35:41):
And it sounds like you've gotten quite good at
channeling it into things youcan do like g rant submissions.
Kaya Wilson (35:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like those things are hardand Uh, artists are always bad
at them usually, but you've gotto like, I don't know, try and
like use your skills.
Like I'm 40 now, I'veaccumulated other skills, I can
do admin and like, yeah, so tryand channel that kind of
logistical energy into that.
Natasha Rai (36:06):
So we are actually nearly out of time and you've
actually given me lots and lotsof good tips, but, uh, the final
question I have is, do you haveany top tip or tips for any, for
emerging writers?
Kaya Wilson (36:19):
Yeah, I mean, when I have said those things in
response to your questions, youknow, I think about, oh, well,
that's what Stephen King talkedabout, you know, right?
The first draft with the doorclosed, second draft, the door
open.
Um, it was kind of helpfulconceptually, but I say the most
helpful thing.
I think is developing thatpractice.
(36:40):
So, um, lots of people will tellyou what works for them or they
will tell you what is absolutelyyou must do.
But it is about what works foryou.
So if you, um, if you've gotsmall Children or whatever.
Working 5 a.
m.
7 a.
m.
might be your time for practiceor, or like, you just have to
work it out so that you, youcome to the table, you come to
(37:04):
the desk or the, or whatever itis with regularity, however
short or infrequent it is tojust.
Or not some commitment that in away that works for you.
Natasha Rai (37:17):
Exactly.
Because I think people gettrapped into the comparison.
Like, oh, well, so and so canwrite five days a week, but I
can only write two.
It doesn't matter.
Kaya Wilson (37:26):
Yeah.
You just got to find thatpractice and like you will make
progress even if it isincremental.
Natasha Rai (37:31):
Exactly.
Progress is progress,
Kaya Wilson (37:33):
right?
Exactly.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (37:36):
Well, thank you so much.
It's been absolutely delightfulhaving this chat with you.
Kaya Wilson (37:40):
Me too.
I really enjoyed it.
The only thing I have to holdback is I want to ask you too, I
want to know what your practiceis.
Natasha Rai (37:46):
We'll do that offline.
Okay.
Um, but honestly, best of luckwith your, um, manuscript and,
um, I hope it's not long beforewe see it on shelves.
Kaya Wilson (37:54):
Yeah, neither.
Neither.
Thank you so much.
It was a real pleasure.
Natasha Rai (37:57):
Thanks, Kaya.
Tina Strachan (37:58):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
Podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new eps drop.
And to keep up to date with whatthe pod is doing, you can also
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