In this episode of The Book Deal Podcast, host Natasha Rai interviews Zaheda Ghani, an Afghan refugee and author of 'Pomegranate and Fig'. Zaheda shares her path to publication, starting from her early handwritten novels to her debut book being shortlisted for the Richell Prize and published by Hachette. They discuss the authenticity of her story set in 1970s Afghanistan, the scars of refugee experiences, and Zaheda's meticulous research process. The conversation also covers Zaheda's writing process, balancing advocacy and storytelling, and the emotional journey of getting published. Zaheda provides valuable tips for writers, emphasizing authenticity and the importance of setting intentions.
00:00 Introduction to the Book Deal Podcast
00:34 Meet Zaheda Ghani: From Refugee to Author
02:26 The Journey of 'Pomegranate and Fig'
03:55 Writing with Authenticity and Detail
06:27 Navigating the Role of Advocate and Author
10:02 The Evolution of Zaheda's Writing Process
12:25 From Writing Course to Publication
13:59 The Role of Competitions in Zaheda's Success
16:30 Working with Editors and Refining the Manuscript
20:42 Introducing 'Welcome to Miracle' by Shara Curlett
22:26 Submitting to Hachette and the Waiting Game
23:14 The Waiting Game: Patience in Publishing
24:51 The Joy of Acceptance: Getting Published
25:40 Navigating the Publishing Process
26:51 Managing Expectations and Anxiety
28:42 Establishing a Writing Routine
32:01 The Creative Process: Writing for Yourself
37:52 Final Thoughts and Advice for Writers
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Natasha Rai (00:09):
This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover
by your host, Natasha Rai.
I'll be bringing you even moredebut and season authors as they
talk about their path topublication.
Madeleine Cleary (00:26):
The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters, which it's recorded
on and pays respect to theirelders past, present, and
emerging.
Natasha Rai (00:34):
Zaheda Ghani and her family arrived in Australia
from Afghanistan as refugees inthe 1980s.
At nine years old, Zaheda, alsoknown as Zoe hand wrote her
first novel using an HB pencilin a scented diary with a lock
and key.
The heart of what she wrote backthen developed over many years
(00:56):
to become Pomegranate and Fig,which was shortlisted for the
Richell prize for emergingwriters.
Zaheda was also a recipient ofthe Western Sydney Emerging
Writers Fellowship.
Zaheda served on the board ofAustralia for U-N-H-C-R, the
private sector partner of the UNRefugee Agency from 2017 to
(01:18):
2021.
She's now an ambassador forAustralia for U-N-H-C-R and has
an active interest in UNH C'Shumanitarian work.
Zaheda lives in Sydney with herhusband.
Just a note from me about thisepisode.
It took, Zaheda and me a whileto get our act together in terms
of getting a time to record it,and I'm so glad we did because
(01:42):
the episode is jam packed withreally, really excellent
practical tips for writerseither struggling to find time
to write or to understand orfigure out how to proceed with
their work and how to setintention.
I think the intention part forme really stood out.
(02:03):
While you're listening thisepisode, make sure you bring
your notebook and pen to take onall of Zaheda's fabulous tips.
Enjoy.
Hi Zaheda Ghani, welcome to theBook Deal podcast.
Zaheda Ghani (02:18):
Thank you, Natasha.
Thank you for having me.
Natasha Rai (02:20):
It's a pleasure and I'm really, really pleased that
you, we were able to make thiswork.
Thank you.
Um, so you're here today to talka little bit about your
publication journey and yourwonderful novel, pomegranate and
Fig.
So I would like to start byinviting you to give me an
elevator pitch.
Zaheda Ghani (02:38):
Okay.
It's not gonna be very polished,but, um, the novel called
Pomegranate and Fig, and I havea copy right here with me.
Um, it was published in, um,2022, so it's been a while.
It's actually a story aboutthree people.
There's, um, Hannah, um, and herbrother, um, Hamid, and
basically, uh, and a thirdperson called Rahim, who will
(03:01):
later become her husband.
And essentially it's based inthe 1970s Afghanistan, and it
follows their lives and theirjourney through the Soviet
invasion.
And then how they flee and whathappens.
At the part of it, what I wasactually interested in was those
scars from the refugeeexperience that are not
(03:21):
communicated through the numbersand the statistics and the
imagery in the news.
It's actually those scars arenot visible.
They actually change who peopleare, and so it's really about
the identities of these peopleand how it involves as a result
of the experiences that theyhad.
Natasha Rai (03:38):
Thank you.
Um, I have read it so I know howbeautiful it is, the story, the
writing, the themes.
Um, and I'm curious about, youtake such heavy themes, you take
such care with them.
How did you approach writing astory like this or stories?
(03:59):
'cause it's multiple viewpoints.
Zaheda Ghani (04:02):
Sure.
Look, at the time I wasn'tthinking about.
The themes or the heaviness inthe way maybe you read, read
them.
I think for me what wasimportant was, um, I needed it
to be as historically valid aspossible.
So it was really, that was animportant thing.
Um, and I wanted to portray theelements of the culture as
(04:24):
honestly as I could.
And now every family has liveswithin a larger and larger
culture, but you also have yourown nucleus of culture.
I wanted to capture those, theimportant things in terms of the
relationships between men andwomen, their wedding ceremony,
the process of actually gettingmarried, the and, and the bonds
between family and what'sappropriate and what's not.
(04:44):
So they're the things that I wasmore focused on and, um,
consciously so, because I wantedto base it in as much, you know,
of I was world building assomeone said once to me, like
someone does in sci-fi.
So I was hoping that the worldthat I'm building is as honest
and authentic as I can make it,um, based on obviously my own
(05:05):
perception of what that lookslike.
And, and for that, um, I watcheda lot of, uh, videos on YouTube
on from the, the.
The periods that I wasinterested in, obviously read a
lot, um, and also, uh, harassedmy mom and other family members
had been through to try tounderstand like in a, um, when
(05:27):
there is that wedding ceremony,what's appropriate for who to
say this is what I wrote.
Is that sound right?
And I also worked with anamazing editor, Jane, who helped
me to then do some.
Uh, like refinements on, well,in the seventies, if you had a
yearbook made of leather, itwould've been too expensive for
(05:48):
a school, so therefore thismaterial should change.
So she did some of that.
So it's not necessarily kind ofhistorical fiction, but it is
trying to be on, uh, honor the,the experiences and the cultural
components and elements of thetime.
Natasha Rai (06:04):
Yeah.
So by focusing on the detailsand that accuracy, you get this.
As you said, world building, youget this real intricate, very
detailed view into thesepeople's lives.
Zaheda Ghani (06:16):
Yeah, that was kind of the game plan.
Natasha Rai (06:18):
It definitely worked.
I mean, as a huge fan of yourwork and I love, I love your
book, so it definitely workedwell for me anyway.
So part of your work is you arean advocate, um, for refugee
peoples or, you know, and I'mwondering,'cause one of the
things you and I talked aboutwhen your book came out.
(06:39):
Was this, um, feeling or dangerof becoming a spokesperson as a
lot of writers of colors end upbeing for communities or ways of
lives or families?
Have you thought about, becauseyou've had a bit of time now,
how you've balanced that, whereyou can kind of talk about it or
advocate through your work, butmaybe wanting to take a bit of a
(07:02):
back step away from that whentalking about your fiction?
Zaheda Ghani (07:06):
Sure.
Yeah, so this was interestingfor me because, um, I cannot
speak for the peoples that areAfghan who have left through
either, either my, my time or orother.
Um, and I wanted the book to dokind of, to just stand as a
(07:28):
novel and I want it just to be anovelist to begin with.
And as a result of sharing mypersonal experiences and
perspectives, if that helpedsomebody understand the refugee
experience better, then that wasreally kind of like the icing.
And I really wanted that to bemy smallest small contribution,
um, to, to, to the narratives,um, that, that you refer to.
(07:50):
So I think, again, I, I feellike going back to just being as
authentic as possible about mywriting process, but also
saying, this is my experienceas.
Afghan, um, refugee as myparents live, you know, left and
how it's different and justbeing kind of like myself, I
guess, in those conversationsrather than trying to speak on
(08:11):
behalf of is and, and thenunderstanding.
And actually, um, someone didsay to me, you know, that they
felt like it was a window intohow families work in that part
of the world and how unfamiliarthey were.
So it's kind of like, well,maybe now when they see on the
news that there's a crisis, theywill have a connection to the
(08:33):
people that are behind thestatistics, and maybe that's
what will be an outcome.
But it definitely wasn't anawareness or a goal for me to
set out to do that.
I just.
Set out to write somethingbecause I was interested in that
story and again, because it hasa personal connection to me and
the refugee story is my story.
Um, yeah, so the way I kind oftried to navigate that is by
(08:53):
just kind of being authenticabout where I've come from and
then if, if people takesomething from that, that's
awesome.
Natasha Rai (08:59):
Yeah, and it's almost a paradox, isn't it?
That in writing a story that'sfamiliar to yours.
Approaching it with that levelof detail that you, you did, you
kind of do both, you kind ofdistance yourself from the
actual story'cause it's not yourstory per se, while also showing
a family who is under a lot ofstress and going through this
(09:23):
quite horrific process ordeal.
Zaheda Ghani (09:26):
Absolutely.
And you know, we have a sharedhumanity, right?
So, and that's kind of where I'mreally interested because the
it, regardless of what these.
What this family was goingthrough.
They're still a family.
And every, uh, there's family,like families are a shared
humanity.
Fear is a shared, sharedhumanity.
Sense of identity is a sharedhumanity.
(09:48):
So that's kind of where I wasinterested in, in that, just
naturally and as you said,because it, it's something
that's close to me.
It's probably created, you know,that thought maybe in your mind
as you read as well, thatconnection.
Natasha Rai (10:01):
Hmm.
Did you set out to write thisstory?
Was that kind of your first ideafor a novel?
Zaheda Ghani (10:08):
Well, I have been writing this story literally
since I was a kid because, andit, and it was because I
initially started with, um,wanting to write an
autobiography.
This was in there, seven or six.
And, and, um, and even younger.
(10:28):
And just because I
Natasha Rai (10:30):
what a short autobiography back then,
Zaheda Ghani (10:32):
tell me about it.
Right.
And, and I wrote like, and thenI realized that was an
interesting, so I wrote it likean iteration of this in, in, in
primary school or whatever.
And it was just an, an idea.
And then I've written a versionof it, which felt really
cardboard and I hated it.
(10:53):
And I thought.
This is what happens.
You, you just feel that way.
Let's just go getself-published, you know, and
get it out there and see whatpeople think.
And I couldn't even make myselfself-publish it.
And then I did the year of the,um, novel, the course with Emily
Maguire.
And through that, um, by thatpoint I had reached a.
Space where I said, you know,I'm either going to write this
(11:16):
or I'm gonna shut up about it.
And through the course I learnedwhat I, what, what I, what was
it about the first versions thatfelt so cardboard.
And it was kind of reallyfreeing to understand myself and
my writing practice, and thenreally just write what I really
wanted to write, but havingbetter techniques and better
(11:37):
feedback.
And yeah.
And that was kind of the startof the actual.
Writing of this version.
Natasha Rai (11:43):
Going into that course, what did you have?
Like, did you have like anoutline, like some scenes, do
you remember?
Zaheda Ghani (11:50):
I had a whole novel.
Natasha Rai (11:51):
You had a whole novel.
Oh my God.
Okay.
Yeah.
But it felt like cardboard, likeyou said.
Zaheda Ghani (11:55):
I hated it.
Yeah.
And I was like, this does notfeel right.
I, it's, I haven't found, and Ithink now I, I feel that it was
because the voice wasn't there.
It was just something wasn'tsitting about it.
And, um, the characters, therewere too many and I was just
needing to work through and getcloser to who I was really
interested in, in the charactersthemselves.
(12:18):
And then once I got that and thevoice and then the scenes, I
started to rewrite everything,um, through that process.
Natasha Rai (12:24):
Yeah.
And I wanna come back to, uh,you mentioned earlier about a
writing process, and I do wannaask you about that.
But as we've started talkingabout your kind of bringing
together what you learnedthrough that course and starting
to figure out what you needed todo to help your novel come to
life.
Tell me a bit about yourpublication journey after that.
(12:46):
So you,'cause I know that you,you are still in a writing
group.
Zaheda Ghani (12:51):
Yes.
So, uh, going in I was verylonely, right.
And I, I had not engaged withwriters at all, and I had no
idea what the publishing journeywould be like.
And what I wanted was, I wantedto just be a student.
In this process that I'veobsessed about all my life and
just go and learn and hopefullyunderstand if I could have some
(13:13):
people that would be in thewriting group with me so that I
could keep going and learningwith them.
And so, yes, out of that courseI did, you know, create, uh, uh,
become part of a writing groupthat we still together today,
but also within that course.
Um, Emily was amazing in thatshe helped me get to know myself
as a writer and kind ofdispelled the myth that.
(13:34):
You have to have these criteriato even call yourself a writer,
which was really shy about evenadmitting to anyone.
So, so that confidence and thecoaching really helped me.
And then she kind of suggestedto the class, you know, um, you
all should start to get yourwork out there and there are
some ideas, and start going intosome competitions and all of
(13:54):
that.
And I really took that to heart.
So put myself out there and afew competitions.
Publishing journey began with acompetition because I entered
the Richell Richell Prize.
I think I pronounced it, been alot times since I said that
word.
Um, and um, and through thatprize, uh, I was a shortlist.
And as part of the shortlist,you know Hachette will read your
(14:16):
work and they will decide.
Natasha Rai (14:18):
That's right.
Amazing.
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (14:20):
And that is, that is how I ended up with Hachette
publishing the novel and throughthat experience of competitions,
um, it's really amazing.
I have to tell you, I used toenter competitions when I was a
kid and.
Get like little, um,acknowledgements of my work and
it used to feel, and I felt likethat period again.
(14:42):
'cause I,
Natasha Rai (14:43):
For sure
Zaheda Ghani (14:44):
As many things as I can.
Mm.
And I didn't win everything,obviously, but I got into a
scholarship with, um, Westwords.
They read my work and they, andthis was definitely part of the
publishing path because it kindof happened at the time before I
had submitted my work toHachette where they teamed me up
with an editor.
(15:05):
Alison Fraser and all of that.
Natasha Rai (15:06):
Yes.
So can I just slow you down alittle bit because um,
Zaheda Ghani (15:09):
Please, yeah.
Natasha Rai (15:10):
People get very interested in how competitions
work.
So you enter the Richell prizeand you were shortlisted.
Zaheda Ghani (15:17):
Yes.
Natasha Rai (15:18):
And then Hachette said what?
Like you had some time to submitthe whole thing.
'cause I know you don't submitthe whole manuscript to the
Richell prize.
Zaheda Ghani (15:25):
That's right.
Natasha Rai (15:26):
Three chapters and a breakdown.
Right.
Zaheda Ghani (15:29):
You got it.
Um, I cannot remember exactlywhat the milestone was in terms
of what I had to submit, whetherit was the whole thing or how
long it took, but mm-hmm.
There was kind of within that,um, you know, contract in, I
think there's a clause or Oh no,it's in the, when you enter the
competition, you know, the termsand conditions and all of that.
Natasha Rai (15:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (15:49):
Which would stick to my ears.
Uh, and someone's gonna read mywork.
Wow.
Yeah.
So then I submitted there, um,and then they had a read and
obviously had various meetingsand things and then they called
and said that they would acceptit.
Natasha Rai (16:04):
So after you was shortlisted, did you then, win
the Westwords editorial, um,feedback after that, do you
remember?
Zaheda Ghani (16:13):
Um, I know that it happened before I submitted the
full manuscript.
Natasha Rai (16:18):
Okay.
Zaheda Ghani (16:18):
But not remember how the sequence worked.
'cause basically I did go a bitnuts.
Different, different places.
Natasha Rai (16:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (16:27):
I can't remember what the sequence was.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (16:30):
Yes.
But I do know that you met upwith, or you were paired with
Alison Fraser because she helpedme with my novel and she's an
absolute gem.
Zaheda Ghani (16:39):
Absolutely.
And that was yeah, a, a processthat, um, she brought kind of
the structural editing to it.
Mm-hmm.
And me, uh, understand andimprove the structure.
And, um, I wasn't thinking astechnically as she does.
Obviously that's, she's such a,yeah.
That, so that really helped.
Natasha Rai (16:57):
Do you remember what your manuscript or where it
was at before she worked on itwith you and what?
I could, I don't mean the actualdetails, but what fundamentally
changed for you after workingwith her?
Zaheda Ghani (17:10):
Oh, sure.
So, um, I think that there was,one of the things was, uh, I
wasn't, I had a lot of char, Ihad more than three characters
and those minor characters, Ithought they had to be chapters
or voices.
The characters stayed, but theydidn't have to become a voice on
(17:32):
the, on their own.
They became a voice part of thebackground.
Natasha Rai (17:36):
Mm-hmm.
Zaheda Ghani (17:36):
So for example, there's a scene where they come
for the, um, there to ask forHannah's hand.
That didn't have to be a pointof view by a whole character.
Natasha Rai (17:45):
I see.
Yes.
Zaheda Ghani (17:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The other thing I got out of,um, working with her, I got many
things, but the other majorthing was, um.
She printed out the whole thingand we sat around the table and
structured in three differentways, timeline everything in by
one cha, like there's threecharacters.
A timeline is consistent.
Yeah.
(18:06):
It was like what every,everybody told the full story
like this.
And so I experimented quite alot with that structure of what
would work with her as well.
Natasha Rai (18:15):
That, uh, must have been quite a long process.
Does, do you remember if.
Sometimes I know, I, I know howI felt when I get feedback from
an editor and initially I feel abit lost or I feel a bit
panicked, like, I think I can'tdo this.
Did you remember feeling likethat or were you feeling really
motivated and inspired by howshe was helping you structure
(18:35):
that?
Zaheda Ghani (18:36):
Okay.
I, this is actually, I stillremember wondering if.
I'm skilled enough to do allthese things.
Yes.
As described, there's thatprocess of like the fear and the
other part of it is do I, Idon't know immediately if I
agree or not.
Natasha Rai (18:56):
Ah, yes,
Zaheda Ghani (18:58):
yes.
I will go back into my likeclick like writing notes.
Yeah.
And go, okay, you are safe.
Let's try this, and then I'lltry it out, and then I will live
with it for a week.
And see how I feel, because Idon't know it straight away what
I think about it.
So I would apply it, play aroundwith it, and then through that
(19:19):
playing around, I would think,oh, oh, I can do this.
And that is when I would startto feel really motivated and
confident.
Natasha Rai (19:27):
Mm-hmm.
Zaheda Ghani (19:27):
Um, but it's not, not when it's like the initial
big list of all the things when,when you first see all the
scribbling work, you're like,I'm never gonna get this done.
How am I gonna get?
So it's like, okay, just chunkit down.
Chapter at the time page at thetime.
Natasha Rai (19:45):
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (19:46):
Play around with it, see how I go.
And then starting to feel, Ithink that the thing that is
consistent was that if someonetook the time to read it, I, the
motivation doesn't wane, if thatmakes sense.
'cause I'm like this.
Very hungry and finished personand it's like someone reading it
is such an honor.
(20:06):
So the motivation doesn't win.
It's the confidence that wasdifferent based on
Natasha Rai (20:11):
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (20:12):
Editing.
Okay.
Natasha Rai (20:13):
Yeah.
That's such an importantdistinction because it's true.
It's the confidence, isn't it?
Zaheda Ghani (20:18):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (20:18):
And when you start getting in the flow, your
confidence builds'cause youthink I can do this.
Zaheda Ghani (20:22):
You got it.
Yeah.
'Cause you, you tinker andyou're like, oh, I could, I was
able to tinker in the directionof what I sensed.
She was asking for, or whatwould make sense now, and you'd
be like, oh, that made itbetter.
Or, oh God, that feelscardboard.
That's not gonna work.
So, yeah.
Natasha Rai (20:37):
Mm-hmm.
Shara Curlett (20:42):
Hi, I'm Shara Curlett member of the 2025 debut
crew, an author of Welcome toMiracle, a middle grade fantasy
novel released by ScholasticAustralia on the 1st of April,
2025.
The idea for Welcome to Miraclecame to me when I asked myself a
simple question.
What if Charlie and thechocolate factory was set on a
magical island?
(21:03):
What would've happened?
What could have happened?
And with that one simple sparkof an idea, Miracle was born.
Welcome to Miracle is about an11-year-old girl named Juniper
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Also, she has been told, and itis well known, that children
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The private island that giftsits visitors magic for 24 hours.
(21:26):
What others don't realize,however, is that Juniper's chaos
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So when Juniper receives anelusive ticket to Miracle, she
believes all her wishes havecome true.
After all, that's what theisland promises on the island,
though she discovers thatnothing is, as it seems, Miracle
(21:48):
is not bringing wishes to life,but nightmares.
Juniper and her new friends mustuncover the secrets of Miracle
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This fast-paced magicaladventure will keep you guessing
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(22:09):
I'd like to say thank you toMadeleine, Tina, and Natasha for
giving me the opportunity toshare my debut novel with you.
Welcome to Miracle is availablefrom all good bookstores and
also through the Scholastic BookClub and Scholastic book fairs.
Natasha Rai (22:26):
So after that process with Alison, you
submitted that version toHachette?
Zaheda Ghani (22:32):
Yes.
Natasha Rai (22:32):
And I remember 'cause uh, we had, were talking
around that time, it felt likeit took a long time after that
submission.
Zaheda Ghani (22:40):
Yes.
So, um, there are a lot ofprocesses that I did not
appreciate in Hachette that I,in publishing, actually not in,
within publishing they have, um,uh, these processes where
they're, I guess, discussing thework, understanding what it
means for them, how does it fitin their catalog, and they're
the things that they were doinginternally, which I was waiting
for.
(23:01):
But because in, you know, andyou are like, been in my shoes,
you are kind of really excited.
But nervous, I was just prettymuch holding my writing breath.
Yes.
So, yeah.
Um, it will be, that's a hardpart to wait.
Natasha Rai (23:19):
It is a very hard part.
And I remember at the time aswell that you wanted to wait and
see and you didn't want to, um,submit to any other publisher.
Zaheda Ghani (23:28):
Yes.
Natasha Rai (23:29):
Yeah.
Yes.
Uh, I mean, I don't really wannaask about whether, obviously
it's, it was the right decision,but how did you.
Hold on to the patience, becauseI know that with the
competitions, you were like,yes, I'm gonna enter as many as
possible.
Zaheda Ghani (23:45):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (23:45):
What helped you kind of hold steady with wh
while you were waiting forHachette?
Zaheda Ghani (23:50):
Um, I think there's a, I can't remember now,
but I think even with enteringcompetitions, there's a time,
there's a timing.
Thing where some competitionsyou can't enter if you already
submitted somewhere else.
Natasha Rai (24:01):
That's, that's true.
That's true.
Yes.
A lot of them have that rule.
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (24:04):
Conscious of timing around that as well.
And, um, you know, uh, the, theyear of the novel and, and all
of the learning we did there,part of that was about like
being conscious of those things.
So I had to do that.
I was conscious, I was, I guess,trained in the patience piece
already through learning thateven competitions, you can't go
a, uh, AWOL and, and do it.
(24:24):
So you have to be conscious ofthose things.
I think, um, I felt, felt a bitlike, and this is gonna sound
cheesy, but it was a bit like ifit's meant to happen in this
situation, it will.
Natasha Rai (24:38):
Mm-hmm.
Zaheda Ghani (24:39):
And I had waited like so long, right?
Written this thing for so long,it just didn't feel like I
needed to go and.
Shop it around immediately.
Natasha Rai (24:48):
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (24:49):
If that makes sense.
Natasha Rai (24:49):
Yeah, it does.
It does.
Do you remember the moment orthe day when they said, yes?
Zaheda Ghani (24:57):
Of course I do.
I remember being on the phone inmy, um, dining area and jumping
up and down going, yes, yes,yes.
Natasha Rai (25:07):
It's the best moment, isn't it?
Zaheda Ghani (25:09):
Such an amazing moment.
I wish it for everyone thatwants to write and wants to
publish, um, through apublisher.
Yeah.
It's, it's the best feeling.
Natasha Rai (25:18):
Yeah.
And from memory, how long did ittake between that Yes.
To publication date?
Zaheda Ghani (25:24):
Oh gosh, I have no idea.
I don't remember.
I know it was months and months.
Natasha Rai (25:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (25:31):
Oh, pause, wait.
Covid happened as well.
So my, my dates were allimpacted by Covid too.
Natasha Rai (25:38):
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
And there was more work that youdid, uh, once it was accepted
for publication.
Zaheda Ghani (25:45):
Yeah.
So there was an edit, um,process with the publishing team
as well.
Natasha Rai (25:49):
Mm.
And so the time of release,because I came to your launch
and in the Sydney launch, howwas all that time?
It must have been so heady andso exciting and joyous.
Zaheda Ghani (26:01):
It, it was heady.
Um, and we were talking earlierabout what it feels like to just
hold a copy in your hand.
Okay.
I celebrate every little step,every lunch.
It's like the phone callcelebration this, well before
that submit, celebration, phonecall, celebration.
And then I have, you know, thebook arriving in, you know, it's
(26:23):
bid way and then the, the, the,the, the, my copies and then
the, yeah, it was just, yeah.
I, I, I, in my whole life, I hadnever worked in, walked into a
bookshop, seen a shelf in books,and not felt and dreamt that
mine would be on it.
And here was this dreamhappening.
And I was, you know, ready tokick the bucket.
(26:46):
'cause the bucket was peaceful.
You know what I mean?
Natasha Rai (26:49):
Yes, I do.
Zaheda Ghani (26:50):
Yeah.
Um, I have to be honest though,one of the things that I
realized when I started to seeit around was I did start to
feel like wanting to getpublished was not the same as
people actually reading it.
Natasha Rai (27:05):
Ah, yes.
Zaheda Ghani (27:07):
Oh yeah.
Okay.
Now that means people will readit.
Oh my God.
I had not connected that.
You know, that bookshelf dreamin a bookshop is the same as
people actually gonna now read,read this thing.
Natasha Rai (27:19):
Yeah.
There's a fear associated withthat and a worry.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you remember what, how youmanaged that?
Zaheda Ghani (27:28):
Um, let's see.
I think.
The excitement and I'm justlike, even now I can feel how
excited I was and I still am.
I mean, I, I got that hap to hapthat happened to me or I made a
book.
Um, it's still, I think that wasprobably overshadowing any
(27:48):
serious fear of doubt.
Just more little anxiety.
Natasha Rai (27:52):
And I don't know if this, if you did this at the
time, but to anyone else who'sin the same boat, all of those
competition, long listing, shortlisting prizes, all of that
feedback is something to holdonto as tangible evidence that
this is good, this is a highenough standard.
Right?
Zaheda Ghani (28:10):
Absolutely.
And, um, it not only builds thatconfidence I was talking about
earlier, um, I did have otherexperiences where I just
received feedback in the earlyphases of the old version of the
manuscript.
And, um, that feedback is a giftand.
Uh, and like I said, my approachis not to have an opinion about
(28:31):
it straight away, but I knowthat the things that I took on
board, even in the oldmanuscript, were really helpful
to make me better as a writer aswell.
Natasha Rai (28:40):
Completely.
Yeah.
And so now if you three yearson, what does kind of your
writing life look like?
Zaheda Ghani (28:48):
Sure.
I have been very busy untilabout, um.
I guess a few months ago where Idecided, okay, the busyness is a
constant, um, and therefore whatare you gonna do now?
Because novel number two is kindof like, I've got a few thousand
words there.
I know what I wanna do with it,but I wasn't getting in the
chair, so to speak.
(29:09):
And so now, uh, I, I've justgone back to restating my
instating, my, um, dailywriting, um, practice, which is
very early in the morning.
Um.
Even if it's a 15 minute thing,consistently writing.
Natasha Rai (29:29):
Mm-hmm.
Zaheda Ghani (29:30):
And, uh, um, I recently had a new, uh, practice
added to it where I'm actually,I put it in the calendar now,
and then it, oh, because I'mdriven by the calendars.
Anyway, it just, it happenedmore consistently.
So that was one thing.
And the other thing was.
Started to put in what thisweek's focus will be because
(29:53):
what I was doing was I was doingonly one kind of activity and
then drowning or losing a lot ofhours and feeling really bad
about it.
So now it'll be this week orthis session will be about
research and then I don't feellike, I haven't got a, like the
full picture of I'm not, this isabout writing a net new scene
(30:15):
that I do not have.
Those ones I will avoid if I letmyself go because my favorite is
I wrote something and I'm gonnapolish the shit out of it.
Natasha Rai (30:25):
Ah, yes.
Yep.
Editing and polishing is myfavorite too.
Zaheda Ghani (30:28):
Yes.
Because they're so fun.
Uh, for me at least.
So now I'm distributing the daysbetween themes of work and
that's gotten me to move forwarda lot faster than I was.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (30:41):
Oh my God.
I actually love that.
I hadn't even considered settingan intentional focus.
For the day or the week.
Oh, I feel like my entirewriting practice is gonna change
because of that tip.
Thank you.
Zaheda Ghani (30:53):
It had a massive impact.
I cannot take credit.
'cause Emily gave that to me.
Natasha Rai (30:57):
That's okay.
I'm glad.
Pass it around.
Zaheda Ghani (31:00):
Yes.
Uh, so it's, it's her, uh, it'sher feedback and it really
helped, um, change Yeah.
The cadence of my writing.
Natasha Rai (31:06):
Yeah.
Because for you, especially withtime, you also work full time.
Zaheda Ghani (31:10):
That's right.
Natasha Rai (31:10):
So you have to find your, what works for you in
terms of carving out that time.
Zaheda Ghani (31:16):
You got it because, um, you know,
lunchtimes and after work andevenings, my cognitive load from
work is so high, it doesn'treally, my brain just doesn't go
there.
Yeah, yeah.
And I get on the laptop again,but in the meetings, because I
work up quite early, it's justI've got the meditation, prayer,
and all of the reflection time.
Then I've got my creative time.
(31:37):
And then believe it or not, I'mway more confident and creative
in my workday because I've hadthat.
That time to, you know, ofsolitude and creativity and it
just sets me up much better forthe rest of the day as well.
Natasha Rai (31:51):
Yeah.
And if you're setting anintention for your creative
time, there's also a sense ofaccomplishment of, I did the
thing that I wanted to do today.
Zaheda Ghani (31:59):
Yes.
Natasha Rai (32:00):
Yes.
And how are you feeling about,uh, not so much the manuscript,
but the pro this process again,does it feel different to the
first time?
Zaheda Ghani (32:09):
It doesn't in that I know I can disappear into the
scene I'm writing and, uh, andhow it feels is the same.
I think, um, there is a, I'm notexpecting that just because I
got published the first time, itwill see the light of day, the
second time, and I'm holdingonto that expectation because
(32:32):
it's a reality, right?
Natasha Rai (32:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (32:35):
The first one, because I didn't even have
anything, I didn't have tocontrol for expectation or
because I know how it feels.
It's kind of like I'm notthinking about that.
I've kind of likecompartmentalized it because it
was about that journey.
I feel if I, if I hadn't hadthat journey, I would still be
much more, I guess it'll be likemuch less of a, an issue or, or
(33:00):
question.
So it's really important for meto go back to.
Even if it doesn't getpublished, who am I writing this
for?
It's actually, I'm writing itfor me.
Yeah.
Oh, that's what makes it fun.
Natasha Rai (33:13):
Yeah.
But you know, Zaheda that likethat is a very difficult thing
for a lot of writers to dobecause once they have their
first novel maybe picked up, oneof the things I've heard a lot
about is disappointment in termsof trying to get your second
book out or working on it, sothat feels very healthy and
refreshing that you are able todo that for yourself.
(33:35):
That you are able to say, youknow what?
I wanna write this for me, andI'm taking the expectation of
publication out.
Zaheda Ghani (33:42):
Yeah.
And I think, um, whenever I'vedone something creative.
The more it's meant to me, themore it's meant to others.
And maybe it's not gonna workwith the second novel.
It doesn't matter because itdoesn't, it's not like a, we, we
don't have switches, right?
For these things.
Um, even small things that I'vewritten or I used to design
(34:03):
clothes once upon a time.
Like the things that reallyresonated were because I was the
most, the things that are mostauthentic to me.
So that's kind of where I'manchoring it in terms of.
If I have fun doing it, it wasworth it, basically.
Yeah.
It doesn't, about the otherstuff, the other stuff is outta
my control.
Natasha Rai (34:21):
True.
It, it does take a lot ofpractice and experience, I think
as well to be able to say, I canactively not think about that or
push that away for now.
Zaheda Ghani (34:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, and, and what I, what Ialso mean is, do I.
Do I still feel the same as Idid the first time, which is,
I'm gonna tell you a story,okay?
A story I'm interested in.
I, it's fun and cool, and thenso I'm thinking of you, but I'm
(34:55):
not doing it for you.
Natasha Rai (34:57):
Exactly.
Yes, yes.
You're doing it for the love ofstorytelling.
You're doing it for the love ofthe creative flow, and you're
doing it for the love of thecraft as well.
Zaheda Ghani (35:07):
It's actually the characters'cause they're so
weird and fun and whatever, andthen it's, and the voice of what
the right word will, how theright word will land, what's the
right word?
That kind of feeling of landingthe right sentence and saying,
oh, that's the right kind of, Iguess, feeling I wanna convey in
(35:29):
this sentence.
And then it's, it's those thingsin within it, within the craft
or as you as.
Natasha Rai (35:35):
Yeah.
Is that your always yourstarting point or does it feel
like that's where you alwayslike to start with characters?
Zaheda Ghani (35:42):
Good question.
I think, yes.
I think the character is tryingto think.
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Because as I get to know themthen, then I can get to know
where, what they will, what theywill do, and then the rest.
Natasha Rai (36:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, it's so interesting tome because you and one other
writer are the only two people Iknow that start in this point.
'cause that's how I start.
I usually start with thecharacter or characters and I
just have to wait so they cantell me what they're gonna do
and what they're up to.
And when you talk to people who,who write in a different way, or
(36:21):
people who don't write, they'relike, yeah, but how does that
work because you are making itup.
I'm like, well, sort of, but notreally.
It just happens.
Zaheda Ghani (36:29):
Isn't that the, isn't that so true?
Because.
I don't know where the thingscome from, right?
You just typing, thoughts arecoming, ideas are, and you just
type the ideas.
Natasha Rai (36:39):
It's like a conduit, like you're just Yeah.
Yeah.
You're flowing and you're justdoing it.
Zaheda Ghani (36:43):
Yeah.
You're having fun.
You can see them.
I can see them in, you know, asmall room.
Uh, right now this like a scenethat would just, like in my
head, I, there was a small room,she was sitting there, there was
a curtain of a certain fabricand I was like, yeah.
And that's not just ourimagination doing what it does,
right?
Natasha Rai (37:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (37:02):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (37:02):
Once you give it the enough space and time and
all the, all the lovely thingsthat are within our control to
help the imagination.
Zaheda Ghani (37:09):
You got it.
Natasha Rai (37:10):
Good.
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (37:11):
You got it.
I was the other day speaking,um, with um, someone in our, in
our writing group actually,about what, how do we get to the
end?
How do we get to a finishednovel?
And it's like some folks like towrite the structure and then
fill in.
Natasha Rai (37:28):
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Zaheda Ghani (37:31):
Mm-hmm.
And I, I write with scenes willjust come and I will just write
them and then I will need to bea reader, come back to it after
a while to see if things arehappening.
Natasha Rai (37:43):
I get it.
Zaheda Ghani (37:44):
It's so amazing how there's such different ways
of accessing what's in ourimagination and getting it on.
Natasha Rai (37:49):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And, uh, we are coming to theend, so just have a.
A couple of final questions.
Um, in terms of, it's kind ofthe same question, but I'm gonna
put into, in, into two differentways.
What have you learned along theway about any of it, whether,
whether it's publication orwriting, and do you have any
(38:13):
tips or top tips for otheremerging writers?
Zaheda Ghani (38:16):
Sure.
Um, what I have learned, andthis is something, you know,
from the year of novel that, uh,really stuck with me is.
There isn't really a criteriafor whether you are a writer or
not, that kind of, um, wantingto pass a gate or earning it as
(38:36):
a right is not a thing.
If we are writing, becausethat's where we like to have our
creative outlet, then we are awriter.
It doesn't matter.
Beyond that.
I think that is one of the biglessons that I've still keep,
uh, worked hard to keep as well,because it's very easy to fall
into the, all of the other stuffthat comes with, and maybe it
(38:59):
might hinder me showing up.
Natasha Rai (39:01):
So.
Yeah.
And lots of emerging writers dothat, that kind of mini
minimizing and that shrinkinginto self.
And you, you can barely utterthe words I'm a writer.
Zaheda Ghani (39:11):
Yes, yes.
Um, the tips would be to, um, Iguess.
I'm not an expert, but I thinkit's connected to that point,
which is trust yourself.
If you love it, then that iswhere the celebration comes from
because, you know, the pro, thatprocess of, um, um, Emily calls
(39:33):
it, you know, that she, shementioned she was quoting
someone, and I cannot rememberthe details.
It was like the image you haveof what it should sound like is
very different to what ends upwhen you actually.
Put it on the page and then thejourney is making the to match,
you know?
Um, it's like how do I refinethis thing I've got on the page
(39:54):
to match the vision in my head?
Yes.
Right?
Yes.
If you got a paragraph thatmatches the vision in your head
to a level you are happy with,it's a win.
Natasha Rai (40:07):
And that's why you love the editing and polishing,
because that's literally thework to get the two matching
right?
Because your first draft, it'svery rare.
You might have moments ofbrilliance, but most of it's not
going to match.
Yes.
Oh, I like that a lot.
Uh, so for your manuscript then,and I'm, this is not about you
(40:27):
needing to tell me anything moreabout it if you don't want to.
Do you have a timeframe in mindfor when you would like to
finish a draft, or is thatfeeling like too much pressure
to think of it like that?
Zaheda Ghani (40:39):
It's definitely a lot of pressure to think of it
that way, but I also won't do itif I don't set myself a
deadline.
So I wanna have a, you know, bythe end of the year if I can, I,
I wanna be in a point where I'vegot what I think is a first
draft.
Natasha Rai (40:53):
Mm-hmm.
Zaheda Ghani (40:54):
Um, that has everything in it, but that's a
very ambitious goal.
If I, if I said something, I'llget something close.
If I said nothing, I'll probablyjust wander.
For another few years.
Natasha Rai (41:08):
Again, it's that setting of intention that you
mentioned earlier.
Zaheda Ghani (41:11):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (41:12):
Uh, well, Zaheda Ghani, thank you so much for
your generosity and taking thetime to talk to me today.
Zaheda Ghani (41:19):
Thank you for having me.
Natasha Rai (41:20):
It's been my absolute pleasure.
Tina Strachan (41:26):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new EPS drop and to keep
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You can also find us onInstagram.
This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover
by your host, Natasha Rai.
I'll be bringing you even moredebut and season authors as they
talk about their path topublication.
Madeleine Cleary (00:26):
The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters, which it's recorded
on and pays respect to theirelders past, present, and
emerging.
Natasha Rai (00:34):
Zaheda Ghani and her family arrived in Australia
from Afghanistan as refugees inthe 1980s.
At nine years old, Zaheda, alsoknown as Zoe hand wrote her
first novel using an HB pencilin a scented diary with a lock
and key.
The heart of what she wrote backthen developed over many years
(00:56):
to become Pomegranate and Fig,which was shortlisted for the
Richell prize for emergingwriters.
Zaheda was also a recipient ofthe Western Sydney Emerging
Writers Fellowship.
Zaheda served on the board ofAustralia for U-N-H-C-R, the
private sector partner of the UNRefugee Agency from 2017 to
(01:18):
2021.
She's now an ambassador forAustralia for U-N-H-C-R and has
an active interest in UNH C'Shumanitarian work.
Zaheda lives in Sydney with herhusband.
Just a note from me about thisepisode.
It took, Zaheda and me a whileto get our act together in terms
of getting a time to record it,and I'm so glad we did because
(01:42):
the episode is jam packed withreally, really excellent
practical tips for writerseither struggling to find time
to write or to understand orfigure out how to proceed with
their work and how to setintention.
I think the intention part forme really stood out.
(02:03):
While you're listening thisepisode, make sure you bring
your notebook and pen to take onall of Zaheda's fabulous tips.
Enjoy.
Hi Zaheda Ghani, welcome to theBook Deal podcast.
Zaheda Ghani (02:18):
Thank you, Natasha.
Thank you for having me.
Natasha Rai (02:20):
It's a pleasure and I'm really, really pleased that
you, we were able to make thiswork.
Thank you.
Um, so you're here today to talka little bit about your
publication journey and yourwonderful novel, pomegranate and
Fig.
So I would like to start byinviting you to give me an
elevator pitch.
Zaheda Ghani (02:38):
Okay.
It's not gonna be very polished,but, um, the novel called
Pomegranate and Fig, and I havea copy right here with me.
Um, it was published in, um,2022, so it's been a while.
It's actually a story aboutthree people.
There's, um, Hannah, um, and herbrother, um, Hamid, and
basically, uh, and a thirdperson called Rahim, who will
(03:01):
later become her husband.
And essentially it's based inthe 1970s Afghanistan, and it
follows their lives and theirjourney through the Soviet
invasion.
And then how they flee and whathappens.
At the part of it, what I wasactually interested in was those
scars from the refugeeexperience that are not
(03:21):
communicated through the numbersand the statistics and the
imagery in the news.
It's actually those scars arenot visible.
They actually change who peopleare, and so it's really about
the identities of these peopleand how it involves as a result
of the experiences that theyhad.
Natasha Rai (03:38):
Thank you.
Um, I have read it so I know howbeautiful it is, the story, the
writing, the themes.
Um, and I'm curious about, youtake such heavy themes, you take
such care with them.
How did you approach writing astory like this or stories?
(03:59):
'cause it's multiple viewpoints.
Zaheda Ghani (04:02):
Sure.
Look, at the time I wasn'tthinking about.
The themes or the heaviness inthe way maybe you read, read
them.
I think for me what wasimportant was, um, I needed it
to be as historically valid aspossible.
So it was really, that was animportant thing.
Um, and I wanted to portray theelements of the culture as
(04:24):
honestly as I could.
And now every family has liveswithin a larger and larger
culture, but you also have yourown nucleus of culture.
I wanted to capture those, theimportant things in terms of the
relationships between men andwomen, their wedding ceremony,
the process of actually gettingmarried, the and, and the bonds
between family and what'sappropriate and what's not.
(04:44):
So they're the things that I wasmore focused on and, um,
consciously so, because I wantedto base it in as much, you know,
of I was world building assomeone said once to me, like
someone does in sci-fi.
So I was hoping that the worldthat I'm building is as honest
and authentic as I can make it,um, based on obviously my own
(05:05):
perception of what that lookslike.
And, and for that, um, I watcheda lot of, uh, videos on YouTube
on from the, the.
The periods that I wasinterested in, obviously read a
lot, um, and also, uh, harassedmy mom and other family members
had been through to try tounderstand like in a, um, when
(05:27):
there is that wedding ceremony,what's appropriate for who to
say this is what I wrote.
Is that sound right?
And I also worked with anamazing editor, Jane, who helped
me to then do some.
Uh, like refinements on, well,in the seventies, if you had a
yearbook made of leather, itwould've been too expensive for
(05:48):
a school, so therefore thismaterial should change.
So she did some of that.
So it's not necessarily kind ofhistorical fiction, but it is
trying to be on, uh, honor the,the experiences and the cultural
components and elements of thetime.
Natasha Rai (06:04):
Yeah.
So by focusing on the detailsand that accuracy, you get this.
As you said, world building, youget this real intricate, very
detailed view into thesepeople's lives.
Zaheda Ghani (06:16):
Yeah, that was kind of the game plan.
Natasha Rai (06:18):
It definitely worked.
I mean, as a huge fan of yourwork and I love, I love your
book, so it definitely workedwell for me anyway.
So part of your work is you arean advocate, um, for refugee
peoples or, you know, and I'mwondering,'cause one of the
things you and I talked aboutwhen your book came out.
(06:39):
Was this, um, feeling or dangerof becoming a spokesperson as a
lot of writers of colors end upbeing for communities or ways of
lives or families?
Have you thought about, becauseyou've had a bit of time now,
how you've balanced that, whereyou can kind of talk about it or
advocate through your work, butmaybe wanting to take a bit of a
(07:02):
back step away from that whentalking about your fiction?
Zaheda Ghani (07:06):
Sure.
Yeah, so this was interestingfor me because, um, I cannot
speak for the peoples that areAfghan who have left through
either, either my, my time or orother.
Um, and I wanted the book to dokind of, to just stand as a
(07:28):
novel and I want it just to be anovelist to begin with.
And as a result of sharing mypersonal experiences and
perspectives, if that helpedsomebody understand the refugee
experience better, then that wasreally kind of like the icing.
And I really wanted that to bemy smallest small contribution,
um, to, to, to the narratives,um, that, that you refer to.
(07:50):
So I think, again, I, I feellike going back to just being as
authentic as possible about mywriting process, but also
saying, this is my experienceas.
Afghan, um, refugee as myparents live, you know, left and
how it's different and justbeing kind of like myself, I
guess, in those conversationsrather than trying to speak on
(08:11):
behalf of is and, and thenunderstanding.
And actually, um, someone didsay to me, you know, that they
felt like it was a window intohow families work in that part
of the world and how unfamiliarthey were.
So it's kind of like, well,maybe now when they see on the
news that there's a crisis, theywill have a connection to the
(08:33):
people that are behind thestatistics, and maybe that's
what will be an outcome.
But it definitely wasn't anawareness or a goal for me to
set out to do that.
I just.
Set out to write somethingbecause I was interested in that
story and again, because it hasa personal connection to me and
the refugee story is my story.
Um, yeah, so the way I kind oftried to navigate that is by
(08:53):
just kind of being authenticabout where I've come from and
then if, if people takesomething from that, that's
awesome.
Natasha Rai (08:59):
Yeah, and it's almost a paradox, isn't it?
That in writing a story that'sfamiliar to yours.
Approaching it with that levelof detail that you, you did, you
kind of do both, you kind ofdistance yourself from the
actual story'cause it's not yourstory per se, while also showing
a family who is under a lot ofstress and going through this
(09:23):
quite horrific process ordeal.
Zaheda Ghani (09:26):
Absolutely.
And you know, we have a sharedhumanity, right?
So, and that's kind of where I'mreally interested because the
it, regardless of what these.
What this family was goingthrough.
They're still a family.
And every, uh, there's family,like families are a shared
humanity.
Fear is a shared, sharedhumanity.
Sense of identity is a sharedhumanity.
(09:48):
So that's kind of where I wasinterested in, in that, just
naturally and as you said,because it, it's something
that's close to me.
It's probably created, you know,that thought maybe in your mind
as you read as well, thatconnection.
Natasha Rai (10:01):
Hmm.
Did you set out to write thisstory?
Was that kind of your first ideafor a novel?
Zaheda Ghani (10:08):
Well, I have been writing this story literally
since I was a kid because, andit, and it was because I
initially started with, um,wanting to write an
autobiography.
This was in there, seven or six.
And, and, um, and even younger.
(10:28):
And just because I
Natasha Rai (10:30):
what a short autobiography back then,
Zaheda Ghani (10:32):
tell me about it.
Right.
And, and I wrote like, and thenI realized that was an
interesting, so I wrote it likean iteration of this in, in, in
primary school or whatever.
And it was just an, an idea.
And then I've written a versionof it, which felt really
cardboard and I hated it.
(10:53):
And I thought.
This is what happens.
You, you just feel that way.
Let's just go getself-published, you know, and
get it out there and see whatpeople think.
And I couldn't even make myselfself-publish it.
And then I did the year of the,um, novel, the course with Emily
Maguire.
And through that, um, by thatpoint I had reached a.
Space where I said, you know,I'm either going to write this
(11:16):
or I'm gonna shut up about it.
And through the course I learnedwhat I, what, what I, what was
it about the first versions thatfelt so cardboard.
And it was kind of reallyfreeing to understand myself and
my writing practice, and thenreally just write what I really
wanted to write, but havingbetter techniques and better
(11:37):
feedback.
And yeah.
And that was kind of the startof the actual.
Writing of this version.
Natasha Rai (11:43):
Going into that course, what did you have?
Like, did you have like anoutline, like some scenes, do
you remember?
Zaheda Ghani (11:50):
I had a whole novel.
Natasha Rai (11:51):
You had a whole novel.
Oh my God.
Okay.
Yeah.
But it felt like cardboard, likeyou said.
Zaheda Ghani (11:55):
I hated it.
Yeah.
And I was like, this does notfeel right.
I, it's, I haven't found, and Ithink now I, I feel that it was
because the voice wasn't there.
It was just something wasn'tsitting about it.
And, um, the characters, therewere too many and I was just
needing to work through and getcloser to who I was really
interested in, in the charactersthemselves.
(12:18):
And then once I got that and thevoice and then the scenes, I
started to rewrite everything,um, through that process.
Natasha Rai (12:24):
Yeah.
And I wanna come back to, uh,you mentioned earlier about a
writing process, and I do wannaask you about that.
But as we've started talkingabout your kind of bringing
together what you learnedthrough that course and starting
to figure out what you needed todo to help your novel come to
life.
Tell me a bit about yourpublication journey after that.
(12:46):
So you,'cause I know that you,you are still in a writing
group.
Zaheda Ghani (12:51):
Yes.
So, uh, going in I was verylonely, right.
And I, I had not engaged withwriters at all, and I had no
idea what the publishing journeywould be like.
And what I wanted was, I wantedto just be a student.
In this process that I'veobsessed about all my life and
just go and learn and hopefullyunderstand if I could have some
(13:13):
people that would be in thewriting group with me so that I
could keep going and learningwith them.
And so, yes, out of that courseI did, you know, create, uh, uh,
become part of a writing groupthat we still together today,
but also within that course.
Um, Emily was amazing in thatshe helped me get to know myself
as a writer and kind ofdispelled the myth that.
(13:34):
You have to have these criteriato even call yourself a writer,
which was really shy about evenadmitting to anyone.
So, so that confidence and thecoaching really helped me.
And then she kind of suggestedto the class, you know, um, you
all should start to get yourwork out there and there are
some ideas, and start going intosome competitions and all of
(13:54):
that.
And I really took that to heart.
So put myself out there and afew competitions.
Publishing journey began with acompetition because I entered
the Richell Richell Prize.
I think I pronounced it, been alot times since I said that
word.
Um, and um, and through thatprize, uh, I was a shortlist.
And as part of the shortlist,you know Hachette will read your
(14:16):
work and they will decide.
Natasha Rai (14:18):
That's right.
Amazing.
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (14:20):
And that is, that is how I ended up with Hachette
publishing the novel and throughthat experience of competitions,
um, it's really amazing.
I have to tell you, I used toenter competitions when I was a
kid and.
Get like little, um,acknowledgements of my work and
it used to feel, and I felt likethat period again.
(14:42):
'cause I,
Natasha Rai (14:43):
For sure
Zaheda Ghani (14:44):
As many things as I can.
Mm.
And I didn't win everything,obviously, but I got into a
scholarship with, um, Westwords.
They read my work and they, andthis was definitely part of the
publishing path because it kindof happened at the time before I
had submitted my work toHachette where they teamed me up
with an editor.
(15:05):
Alison Fraser and all of that.
Natasha Rai (15:06):
Yes.
So can I just slow you down alittle bit because um,
Zaheda Ghani (15:09):
Please, yeah.
Natasha Rai (15:10):
People get very interested in how competitions
work.
So you enter the Richell prizeand you were shortlisted.
Zaheda Ghani (15:17):
Yes.
Natasha Rai (15:18):
And then Hachette said what?
Like you had some time to submitthe whole thing.
'cause I know you don't submitthe whole manuscript to the
Richell prize.
Zaheda Ghani (15:25):
That's right.
Natasha Rai (15:26):
Three chapters and a breakdown.
Right.
Zaheda Ghani (15:29):
You got it.
Um, I cannot remember exactlywhat the milestone was in terms
of what I had to submit, whetherit was the whole thing or how
long it took, but mm-hmm.
There was kind of within that,um, you know, contract in, I
think there's a clause or Oh no,it's in the, when you enter the
competition, you know, the termsand conditions and all of that.
Natasha Rai (15:49):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (15:49):
Which would stick to my ears.
Uh, and someone's gonna read mywork.
Wow.
Yeah.
So then I submitted there, um,and then they had a read and
obviously had various meetingsand things and then they called
and said that they would acceptit.
Natasha Rai (16:04):
So after you was shortlisted, did you then, win
the Westwords editorial, um,feedback after that, do you
remember?
Zaheda Ghani (16:13):
Um, I know that it happened before I submitted the
full manuscript.
Natasha Rai (16:18):
Okay.
Zaheda Ghani (16:18):
But not remember how the sequence worked.
'cause basically I did go a bitnuts.
Different, different places.
Natasha Rai (16:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (16:27):
I can't remember what the sequence was.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (16:30):
Yes.
But I do know that you met upwith, or you were paired with
Alison Fraser because she helpedme with my novel and she's an
absolute gem.
Zaheda Ghani (16:39):
Absolutely.
And that was yeah, a, a processthat, um, she brought kind of
the structural editing to it.
Mm-hmm.
And me, uh, understand andimprove the structure.
And, um, I wasn't thinking astechnically as she does.
Obviously that's, she's such a,yeah.
That, so that really helped.
Natasha Rai (16:57):
Do you remember what your manuscript or where it
was at before she worked on itwith you and what?
I could, I don't mean the actualdetails, but what fundamentally
changed for you after workingwith her?
Zaheda Ghani (17:10):
Oh, sure.
So, um, I think that there was,one of the things was, uh, I
wasn't, I had a lot of char, Ihad more than three characters
and those minor characters, Ithought they had to be chapters
or voices.
The characters stayed, but theydidn't have to become a voice on
(17:32):
the, on their own.
They became a voice part of thebackground.
Natasha Rai (17:36):
Mm-hmm.
Zaheda Ghani (17:36):
So for example, there's a scene where they come
for the, um, there to ask forHannah's hand.
That didn't have to be a pointof view by a whole character.
Natasha Rai (17:45):
I see.
Yes.
Zaheda Ghani (17:46):
Yeah.
Yeah.
The other thing I got out of,um, working with her, I got many
things, but the other majorthing was, um.
She printed out the whole thingand we sat around the table and
structured in three differentways, timeline everything in by
one cha, like there's threecharacters.
A timeline is consistent.
Yeah.
(18:06):
It was like what every,everybody told the full story
like this.
And so I experimented quite alot with that structure of what
would work with her as well.
Natasha Rai (18:15):
That, uh, must have been quite a long process.
Does, do you remember if.
Sometimes I know, I, I know howI felt when I get feedback from
an editor and initially I feel abit lost or I feel a bit
panicked, like, I think I can'tdo this.
Did you remember feeling likethat or were you feeling really
motivated and inspired by howshe was helping you structure
(18:35):
that?
Zaheda Ghani (18:36):
Okay.
I, this is actually, I stillremember wondering if.
I'm skilled enough to do allthese things.
Yes.
As described, there's thatprocess of like the fear and the
other part of it is do I, Idon't know immediately if I
agree or not.
Natasha Rai (18:56):
Ah, yes,
Zaheda Ghani (18:58):
yes.
I will go back into my likeclick like writing notes.
Yeah.
And go, okay, you are safe.
Let's try this, and then I'lltry it out, and then I will live
with it for a week.
And see how I feel, because Idon't know it straight away what
I think about it.
So I would apply it, play aroundwith it, and then through that
(19:19):
playing around, I would think,oh, oh, I can do this.
And that is when I would startto feel really motivated and
confident.
Natasha Rai (19:27):
Mm-hmm.
Zaheda Ghani (19:27):
Um, but it's not, not when it's like the initial
big list of all the things when,when you first see all the
scribbling work, you're like,I'm never gonna get this done.
How am I gonna get?
So it's like, okay, just chunkit down.
Chapter at the time page at thetime.
Natasha Rai (19:45):
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (19:46):
Play around with it, see how I go.
And then starting to feel, Ithink that the thing that is
consistent was that if someonetook the time to read it, I, the
motivation doesn't wane, if thatmakes sense.
'cause I'm like this.
Very hungry and finished personand it's like someone reading it
is such an honor.
(20:06):
So the motivation doesn't win.
It's the confidence that wasdifferent based on
Natasha Rai (20:11):
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (20:12):
Editing.
Okay.
Natasha Rai (20:13):
Yeah.
That's such an importantdistinction because it's true.
It's the confidence, isn't it?
Zaheda Ghani (20:18):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (20:18):
And when you start getting in the flow, your
confidence builds'cause youthink I can do this.
Zaheda Ghani (20:22):
You got it.
Yeah.
'Cause you, you tinker andyou're like, oh, I could, I was
able to tinker in the directionof what I sensed.
She was asking for, or whatwould make sense now, and you'd
be like, oh, that made itbetter.
Or, oh God, that feelscardboard.
That's not gonna work.
So, yeah.
Natasha Rai (20:37):
Mm-hmm.
Shara Curlett (20:42):
Hi, I'm Shara Curlett member of the 2025 debut
crew, an author of Welcome toMiracle, a middle grade fantasy
novel released by ScholasticAustralia on the 1st of April,
2025.
The idea for Welcome to Miraclecame to me when I asked myself a
simple question.
What if Charlie and thechocolate factory was set on a
magical island?
(21:03):
What would've happened?
What could have happened?
And with that one simple sparkof an idea, Miracle was born.
Welcome to Miracle is about an11-year-old girl named Juniper
Mayfair, who was cursed bychaos.
Also, she has been told, and itis well known, that children
with chaos may never visitMiracle.
The private island that giftsits visitors magic for 24 hours.
(21:26):
What others don't realize,however, is that Juniper's chaos
comes in the form of a peskyghost who claims he is not a
ghost named Finnegan Frost.
So when Juniper receives anelusive ticket to Miracle, she
believes all her wishes havecome true.
After all, that's what theisland promises on the island,
though she discovers thatnothing is, as it seems, Miracle
(21:48):
is not bringing wishes to life,but nightmares.
Juniper and her new friends mustuncover the secrets of Miracle
to rid the world of chaos forgood, but first, they must
survive the island.
This fast-paced magicaladventure will keep you guessing
to the very end, and I reallyhope that your children and you
love reading it.
(22:09):
I'd like to say thank you toMadeleine, Tina, and Natasha for
giving me the opportunity toshare my debut novel with you.
Welcome to Miracle is availablefrom all good bookstores and
also through the Scholastic BookClub and Scholastic book fairs.
Natasha Rai (22:26):
So after that process with Alison, you
submitted that version toHachette?
Zaheda Ghani (22:32):
Yes.
Natasha Rai (22:32):
And I remember 'cause uh, we had, were talking
around that time, it felt likeit took a long time after that
submission.
Zaheda Ghani (22:40):
Yes.
So, um, there are a lot ofprocesses that I did not
appreciate in Hachette that I,in publishing, actually not in,
within publishing they have, um,uh, these processes where
they're, I guess, discussing thework, understanding what it
means for them, how does it fitin their catalog, and they're
the things that they were doinginternally, which I was waiting
for.
(23:01):
But because in, you know, andyou are like, been in my shoes,
you are kind of really excited.
But nervous, I was just prettymuch holding my writing breath.
Yes.
So, yeah.
Um, it will be, that's a hardpart to wait.
Natasha Rai (23:19):
It is a very hard part.
And I remember at the time aswell that you wanted to wait and
see and you didn't want to, um,submit to any other publisher.
Zaheda Ghani (23:28):
Yes.
Natasha Rai (23:29):
Yeah.
Yes.
Uh, I mean, I don't really wannaask about whether, obviously
it's, it was the right decision,but how did you.
Hold on to the patience, becauseI know that with the
competitions, you were like,yes, I'm gonna enter as many as
possible.
Zaheda Ghani (23:45):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (23:45):
What helped you kind of hold steady with wh
while you were waiting forHachette?
Zaheda Ghani (23:50):
Um, I think there's a, I can't remember now,
but I think even with enteringcompetitions, there's a time,
there's a timing.
Thing where some competitionsyou can't enter if you already
submitted somewhere else.
Natasha Rai (24:01):
That's, that's true.
That's true.
Yes.
A lot of them have that rule.
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (24:04):
Conscious of timing around that as well.
And, um, you know, uh, the, theyear of the novel and, and all
of the learning we did there,part of that was about like
being conscious of those things.
So I had to do that.
I was conscious, I was, I guess,trained in the patience piece
already through learning thateven competitions, you can't go
a, uh, AWOL and, and do it.
(24:24):
So you have to be conscious ofthose things.
I think, um, I felt, felt a bitlike, and this is gonna sound
cheesy, but it was a bit like ifit's meant to happen in this
situation, it will.
Natasha Rai (24:38):
Mm-hmm.
Zaheda Ghani (24:39):
And I had waited like so long, right?
Written this thing for so long,it just didn't feel like I
needed to go and.
Shop it around immediately.
Natasha Rai (24:48):
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (24:49):
If that makes sense.
Natasha Rai (24:49):
Yeah, it does.
It does.
Do you remember the moment orthe day when they said, yes?
Zaheda Ghani (24:57):
Of course I do.
I remember being on the phone inmy, um, dining area and jumping
up and down going, yes, yes,yes.
Natasha Rai (25:07):
It's the best moment, isn't it?
Zaheda Ghani (25:09):
Such an amazing moment.
I wish it for everyone thatwants to write and wants to
publish, um, through apublisher.
Yeah.
It's, it's the best feeling.
Natasha Rai (25:18):
Yeah.
And from memory, how long did ittake between that Yes.
To publication date?
Zaheda Ghani (25:24):
Oh gosh, I have no idea.
I don't remember.
I know it was months and months.
Natasha Rai (25:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (25:31):
Oh, pause, wait.
Covid happened as well.
So my, my dates were allimpacted by Covid too.
Natasha Rai (25:38):
Oh, okay.
Yeah.
And there was more work that youdid, uh, once it was accepted
for publication.
Zaheda Ghani (25:45):
Yeah.
So there was an edit, um,process with the publishing team
as well.
Natasha Rai (25:49):
Mm.
And so the time of release,because I came to your launch
and in the Sydney launch, howwas all that time?
It must have been so heady andso exciting and joyous.
Zaheda Ghani (26:01):
It, it was heady.
Um, and we were talking earlierabout what it feels like to just
hold a copy in your hand.
Okay.
I celebrate every little step,every lunch.
It's like the phone callcelebration this, well before
that submit, celebration, phonecall, celebration.
And then I have, you know, thebook arriving in, you know, it's
(26:23):
bid way and then the, the, the,the, the, my copies and then
the, yeah, it was just, yeah.
I, I, I, in my whole life, I hadnever worked in, walked into a
bookshop, seen a shelf in books,and not felt and dreamt that
mine would be on it.
And here was this dreamhappening.
And I was, you know, ready tokick the bucket.
(26:46):
'cause the bucket was peaceful.
You know what I mean?
Natasha Rai (26:49):
Yes, I do.
Zaheda Ghani (26:50):
Yeah.
Um, I have to be honest though,one of the things that I
realized when I started to seeit around was I did start to
feel like wanting to getpublished was not the same as
people actually reading it.
Natasha Rai (27:05):
Ah, yes.
Zaheda Ghani (27:07):
Oh yeah.
Okay.
Now that means people will readit.
Oh my God.
I had not connected that.
You know, that bookshelf dreamin a bookshop is the same as
people actually gonna now read,read this thing.
Natasha Rai (27:19):
Yeah.
There's a fear associated withthat and a worry.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Do you remember what, how youmanaged that?
Zaheda Ghani (27:28):
Um, let's see.
I think.
The excitement and I'm justlike, even now I can feel how
excited I was and I still am.
I mean, I, I got that hap to hapthat happened to me or I made a
book.
Um, it's still, I think that wasprobably overshadowing any
(27:48):
serious fear of doubt.
Just more little anxiety.
Natasha Rai (27:52):
And I don't know if this, if you did this at the
time, but to anyone else who'sin the same boat, all of those
competition, long listing, shortlisting prizes, all of that
feedback is something to holdonto as tangible evidence that
this is good, this is a highenough standard.
Right?
Zaheda Ghani (28:10):
Absolutely.
And, um, it not only builds thatconfidence I was talking about
earlier, um, I did have otherexperiences where I just
received feedback in the earlyphases of the old version of the
manuscript.
And, um, that feedback is a giftand.
Uh, and like I said, my approachis not to have an opinion about
(28:31):
it straight away, but I knowthat the things that I took on
board, even in the oldmanuscript, were really helpful
to make me better as a writer aswell.
Natasha Rai (28:40):
Completely.
Yeah.
And so now if you three yearson, what does kind of your
writing life look like?
Zaheda Ghani (28:48):
Sure.
I have been very busy untilabout, um.
I guess a few months ago where Idecided, okay, the busyness is a
constant, um, and therefore whatare you gonna do now?
Because novel number two is kindof like, I've got a few thousand
words there.
I know what I wanna do with it,but I wasn't getting in the
chair, so to speak.
(29:09):
And so now, uh, I, I've justgone back to restating my
instating, my, um, dailywriting, um, practice, which is
very early in the morning.
Um.
Even if it's a 15 minute thing,consistently writing.
Natasha Rai (29:29):
Mm-hmm.
Zaheda Ghani (29:30):
And, uh, um, I recently had a new, uh, practice
added to it where I'm actually,I put it in the calendar now,
and then it, oh, because I'mdriven by the calendars.
Anyway, it just, it happenedmore consistently.
So that was one thing.
And the other thing was.
Started to put in what thisweek's focus will be because
(29:53):
what I was doing was I was doingonly one kind of activity and
then drowning or losing a lot ofhours and feeling really bad
about it.
So now it'll be this week orthis session will be about
research and then I don't feellike, I haven't got a, like the
full picture of I'm not, this isabout writing a net new scene
(30:15):
that I do not have.
Those ones I will avoid if I letmyself go because my favorite is
I wrote something and I'm gonnapolish the shit out of it.
Natasha Rai (30:25):
Ah, yes.
Yep.
Editing and polishing is myfavorite too.
Zaheda Ghani (30:28):
Yes.
Because they're so fun.
Uh, for me at least.
So now I'm distributing the daysbetween themes of work and
that's gotten me to move forwarda lot faster than I was.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (30:41):
Oh my God.
I actually love that.
I hadn't even considered settingan intentional focus.
For the day or the week.
Oh, I feel like my entirewriting practice is gonna change
because of that tip.
Thank you.
Zaheda Ghani (30:53):
It had a massive impact.
I cannot take credit.
'cause Emily gave that to me.
Natasha Rai (30:57):
That's okay.
I'm glad.
Pass it around.
Zaheda Ghani (31:00):
Yes.
Uh, so it's, it's her, uh, it'sher feedback and it really
helped, um, change Yeah.
The cadence of my writing.
Natasha Rai (31:06):
Yeah.
Because for you, especially withtime, you also work full time.
Zaheda Ghani (31:10):
That's right.
Natasha Rai (31:10):
So you have to find your, what works for you in
terms of carving out that time.
Zaheda Ghani (31:16):
You got it because, um, you know,
lunchtimes and after work andevenings, my cognitive load from
work is so high, it doesn'treally, my brain just doesn't go
there.
Yeah, yeah.
And I get on the laptop again,but in the meetings, because I
work up quite early, it's justI've got the meditation, prayer,
and all of the reflection time.
Then I've got my creative time.
(31:37):
And then believe it or not, I'mway more confident and creative
in my workday because I've hadthat.
That time to, you know, ofsolitude and creativity and it
just sets me up much better forthe rest of the day as well.
Natasha Rai (31:51):
Yeah.
And if you're setting anintention for your creative
time, there's also a sense ofaccomplishment of, I did the
thing that I wanted to do today.
Zaheda Ghani (31:59):
Yes.
Natasha Rai (32:00):
Yes.
And how are you feeling about,uh, not so much the manuscript,
but the pro this process again,does it feel different to the
first time?
Zaheda Ghani (32:09):
It doesn't in that I know I can disappear into the
scene I'm writing and, uh, andhow it feels is the same.
I think, um, there is a, I'm notexpecting that just because I
got published the first time, itwill see the light of day, the
second time, and I'm holdingonto that expectation because
(32:32):
it's a reality, right?
Natasha Rai (32:34):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (32:35):
The first one, because I didn't even have
anything, I didn't have tocontrol for expectation or
because I know how it feels.
It's kind of like I'm notthinking about that.
I've kind of likecompartmentalized it because it
was about that journey.
I feel if I, if I hadn't hadthat journey, I would still be
much more, I guess it'll be likemuch less of a, an issue or, or
(33:00):
question.
So it's really important for meto go back to.
Even if it doesn't getpublished, who am I writing this
for?
It's actually, I'm writing itfor me.
Yeah.
Oh, that's what makes it fun.
Natasha Rai (33:13):
Yeah.
But you know, Zaheda that likethat is a very difficult thing
for a lot of writers to dobecause once they have their
first novel maybe picked up, oneof the things I've heard a lot
about is disappointment in termsof trying to get your second
book out or working on it, sothat feels very healthy and
refreshing that you are able todo that for yourself.
(33:35):
That you are able to say, youknow what?
I wanna write this for me, andI'm taking the expectation of
publication out.
Zaheda Ghani (33:42):
Yeah.
And I think, um, whenever I'vedone something creative.
The more it's meant to me, themore it's meant to others.
And maybe it's not gonna workwith the second novel.
It doesn't matter because itdoesn't, it's not like a, we, we
don't have switches, right?
For these things.
Um, even small things that I'vewritten or I used to design
(34:03):
clothes once upon a time.
Like the things that reallyresonated were because I was the
most, the things that are mostauthentic to me.
So that's kind of where I'manchoring it in terms of.
If I have fun doing it, it wasworth it, basically.
Yeah.
It doesn't, about the otherstuff, the other stuff is outta
my control.
Natasha Rai (34:21):
True.
It, it does take a lot ofpractice and experience, I think
as well to be able to say, I canactively not think about that or
push that away for now.
Zaheda Ghani (34:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And, and, and what I, what Ialso mean is, do I.
Do I still feel the same as Idid the first time, which is,
I'm gonna tell you a story,okay?
A story I'm interested in.
I, it's fun and cool, and thenso I'm thinking of you, but I'm
(34:55):
not doing it for you.
Natasha Rai (34:57):
Exactly.
Yes, yes.
You're doing it for the love ofstorytelling.
You're doing it for the love ofthe creative flow, and you're
doing it for the love of thecraft as well.
Zaheda Ghani (35:07):
It's actually the characters'cause they're so
weird and fun and whatever, andthen it's, and the voice of what
the right word will, how theright word will land, what's the
right word?
That kind of feeling of landingthe right sentence and saying,
oh, that's the right kind of, Iguess, feeling I wanna convey in
(35:29):
this sentence.
And then it's, it's those thingsin within it, within the craft
or as you as.
Natasha Rai (35:35):
Yeah.
Is that your always yourstarting point or does it feel
like that's where you alwayslike to start with characters?
Zaheda Ghani (35:42):
Good question.
I think, yes.
I think the character is tryingto think.
Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
Because as I get to know themthen, then I can get to know
where, what they will, what theywill do, and then the rest.
Natasha Rai (36:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You know, it's so interesting tome because you and one other
writer are the only two people Iknow that start in this point.
'cause that's how I start.
I usually start with thecharacter or characters and I
just have to wait so they cantell me what they're gonna do
and what they're up to.
And when you talk to people who,who write in a different way, or
(36:21):
people who don't write, they'relike, yeah, but how does that
work because you are making itup.
I'm like, well, sort of, but notreally.
It just happens.
Zaheda Ghani (36:29):
Isn't that the, isn't that so true?
Because.
I don't know where the thingscome from, right?
You just typing, thoughts arecoming, ideas are, and you just
type the ideas.
Natasha Rai (36:39):
It's like a conduit, like you're just Yeah.
Yeah.
You're flowing and you're justdoing it.
Zaheda Ghani (36:43):
Yeah.
You're having fun.
You can see them.
I can see them in, you know, asmall room.
Uh, right now this like a scenethat would just, like in my
head, I, there was a small room,she was sitting there, there was
a curtain of a certain fabricand I was like, yeah.
And that's not just ourimagination doing what it does,
right?
Natasha Rai (37:00):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (37:02):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (37:02):
Once you give it the enough space and time and
all the, all the lovely thingsthat are within our control to
help the imagination.
Zaheda Ghani (37:09):
You got it.
Natasha Rai (37:10):
Good.
Yeah.
Zaheda Ghani (37:11):
You got it.
I was the other day speaking,um, with um, someone in our, in
our writing group actually,about what, how do we get to the
end?
How do we get to a finishednovel?
And it's like some folks like towrite the structure and then
fill in.
Natasha Rai (37:28):
Yes.
Mm-hmm.
Zaheda Ghani (37:31):
Mm-hmm.
And I, I write with scenes willjust come and I will just write
them and then I will need to bea reader, come back to it after
a while to see if things arehappening.
Natasha Rai (37:43):
I get it.
Zaheda Ghani (37:44):
It's so amazing how there's such different ways
of accessing what's in ourimagination and getting it on.
Natasha Rai (37:49):
Exactly.
Yeah.
And, uh, we are coming to theend, so just have a.
A couple of final questions.
Um, in terms of, it's kind ofthe same question, but I'm gonna
put into, in, into two differentways.
What have you learned along theway about any of it, whether,
whether it's publication orwriting, and do you have any
(38:13):
tips or top tips for otheremerging writers?
Zaheda Ghani (38:16):
Sure.
Um, what I have learned, andthis is something, you know,
from the year of novel that, uh,really stuck with me is.
There isn't really a criteriafor whether you are a writer or
not, that kind of, um, wantingto pass a gate or earning it as
(38:36):
a right is not a thing.
If we are writing, becausethat's where we like to have our
creative outlet, then we are awriter.
It doesn't matter.
Beyond that.
I think that is one of the biglessons that I've still keep,
uh, worked hard to keep as well,because it's very easy to fall
into the, all of the other stuffthat comes with, and maybe it
(38:59):
might hinder me showing up.
Natasha Rai (39:01):
So.
Yeah.
And lots of emerging writers dothat, that kind of mini
minimizing and that shrinkinginto self.
And you, you can barely utterthe words I'm a writer.
Zaheda Ghani (39:11):
Yes, yes.
Um, the tips would be to, um, Iguess.
I'm not an expert, but I thinkit's connected to that point,
which is trust yourself.
If you love it, then that iswhere the celebration comes from
because, you know, the pro, thatprocess of, um, um, Emily calls
(39:33):
it, you know, that she, shementioned she was quoting
someone, and I cannot rememberthe details.
It was like the image you haveof what it should sound like is
very different to what ends upwhen you actually.
Put it on the page and then thejourney is making the to match,
you know?
Um, it's like how do I refinethis thing I've got on the page
(39:54):
to match the vision in my head?
Yes.
Right?
Yes.
If you got a paragraph thatmatches the vision in your head
to a level you are happy with,it's a win.
Natasha Rai (40:07):
And that's why you love the editing and polishing,
because that's literally thework to get the two matching
right?
Because your first draft, it'svery rare.
You might have moments ofbrilliance, but most of it's not
going to match.
Yes.
Oh, I like that a lot.
Uh, so for your manuscript then,and I'm, this is not about you
(40:27):
needing to tell me anything moreabout it if you don't want to.
Do you have a timeframe in mindfor when you would like to
finish a draft, or is thatfeeling like too much pressure
to think of it like that?
Zaheda Ghani (40:39):
It's definitely a lot of pressure to think of it
that way, but I also won't do itif I don't set myself a
deadline.
So I wanna have a, you know, bythe end of the year if I can, I,
I wanna be in a point where I'vegot what I think is a first
draft.
Natasha Rai (40:53):
Mm-hmm.
Zaheda Ghani (40:54):
Um, that has everything in it, but that's a
very ambitious goal.
If I, if I said something, I'llget something close.
If I said nothing, I'll probablyjust wander.
For another few years.
Natasha Rai (41:08):
Again, it's that setting of intention that you
mentioned earlier.
Zaheda Ghani (41:11):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (41:12):
Uh, well, Zaheda Ghani, thank you so much for
your generosity and taking thetime to talk to me today.
Zaheda Ghani (41:19):
Thank you for having me.
Natasha Rai (41:20):
It's been my absolute pleasure.
Tina Strachan (41:26):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
podcast.
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