In this episode of The Book Deal Podcast, host Natasha Rai interviews debut author and screenwriter Zahid Gamieldien. Known for his novel 'All The Missing Children', published by Ultimo Press in 2024, Zahid discusses his path to publication, story structure intricacies, and the emotional and psychological effects of his novel's plot on various characters. He also shares valuable insights into the importance of planning, balancing creativity, overcoming self-doubt, and how perseverance plays a crucial role in becoming a successful writer. Zahid’s teaching experience and practical tips offer emerging writers clear guidance on improving their craft and navigating the publishing industry.
00:00 Introduction to the Book Deal Podcast
00:39 Meet Zahid Gamieldien: Author and Screenwriter
01:49 Discussing 'All The Missing Children'
02:57 Understanding Story Structure
04:11 The Writing Process and Planning
04:52 Teaching Writing and Story Structure
10:44 Zahid's Publication Journey
14:31 Early Writing Attempts and Career Decisions
18:48 Balancing Craft and Creativity
21:42 Advice for Emerging Writers
23:16 Introducing Bianca Breen's Debut Novel
23:44 The Chase Begins: Gerdie and the Mysterious Boy
23:53 Blueprints and Deadly Secrets
23:59 The Missing Piece
24:03 Hunted by Conqueror Seki
24:07 Author's Hopes for Readers
24:27 Common Mistakes in Emerging Writers
24:41 Character-Driven Stories vs. Event-Driven Stories
25:24 The Importance of Patience in Writing
25:38 The Gap Between Writing and Reading
26:59 Self-Doubt and Trusted Readers
27:57 The Role of Feedback in Writing
30:20 The Unusual Crime Novel
31:35 Marketing a Genre-Defying Book
36:08 Balancing Family and Writing
38:48 Creating a Writing Ritual
42:23 Perseverance and Improvement
44:10 Reflecting on Past Work
45:46 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Natasha Rai (00:09):
This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover
by your host, Natasha Rai.
I'll be bringing you even moredebut and season authors as they
talk about their path topublication.
Madeleine Cleary (00:26):
The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters, which it's recorded
on.
And pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging.
Natasha Rai (00:39):
Zahid Gamieldien is an author, screenwriter, editor
and writing tutor.
His debut novel, all The MissingChildren, was published by
Ultimo Press in 2024.
He's had short fiction publishedin literary journals, including
Overland, Meanjin, Kill YourDarlings, Island Magazine, and
many others.
His work was listed for theRichell Prize and selected for
(01:00):
inclusion in the best of 40thanniversary edition of the UTS
Writers Anthology.
His unproduced screenwriting hasbeen listed for awards in
Australia and overseas, and asan editor and writing tutor,
he's helped several authors gettheir work into print.
He's received funding toundertake a residency at Varuna
(01:21):
House and two major arts grantsfrom Create New South Wales.
He has a short, new, short storycoming out in Overland, and his
second novel will probably bereleased in late 2026.
Hello, Zahid Gamieldien.
Welcome to the Book Dealpodcast.
Zahid Gamieldien (01:42):
Lovely to be here.
Natasha Rai (01:43):
Excellent.
How are you today?
Zahid Gamieldien (01:45):
I'm pretty well I think.
How are you?
Natasha Rai (01:47):
Yeah, I'm fine, thanks.
Um, so I would like to talk toyou a little bit today about
your novel, all The MissingChildren, and maybe some writing
practice, and then, um, go alittle bit into your publishing
journey.
Is that okay?
Zahid Gamieldien (02:02):
Alright.
Sounds like a plan.
Natasha Rai (02:03):
Okay.
So how about we start with yourelevator pitch for all the
missing children.
Zahid Gamieldien (02:07):
Okay, so All The Missing Children is a
literary mystery drama withcreeping supernatural elements.
It's about the effect that theenigmatic presence and
mysterious disappearance of twochildren has on various
characters from their workingclass mother to a suspended
detective who's obsessed with acold case.
And while these characters'stories unfold, as we get
further and further from thechildren's lived experience, the
(02:31):
novel provides clues that helpthe reader answer the question,
what happened to the children?
Natasha Rai (02:36):
Awesome.
That was a great pitch.
Zahid Gamieldien (02:38):
Thank you.
I've practiced it.
Natasha Rai (02:41):
Uh, so I've read it so I know how phenomenally good
it is.
Zahid Gamieldien (02:45):
Um, thank you.
Natasha Rai (02:46):
How did you start, like what was your starting
point for this novel in terms ofthose viewpoints and that kind
of common thread that you justmentioned?
Zahid Gamieldien (02:56):
Um.
Well, I guess I've taught noveland script writing for about 10
years, and so I'm very familiarwith traditional story structure
and a lot of traditional storystructure.
Whether you talk about it interms of three act structure or
four act structure or uh, sevensequence structure.
It's all kind of the same.
It's about establishing acharacter with a fundamental
(03:17):
flaw and then designing eventsthat.
Test that flaw until thecharacter changes and overcomes
it at the same time.
Your novel generally sets up astory question and goes about
kind of inexorably answeringthat question.
So the idea I had for this novelwas to design something that
outwardly moves away fromclosure, moves away from from
(03:40):
synthesis.
While in the background, thereader's given everything they
need to carry it towardsresolution themselves.
Um.
So what I wanted to do was witheach part of the story.
Give that a traditional storystructure.
Um, and so that character has acomplete journey.
And as you say, there are thesesubtle connections between the
(04:01):
different parts and all of theseclues are being given about the
main mystery.
Now, unfortunately, I found thatyou cannot approach a story like
that through pure intuition.
Um, you need to actually gothrough and.
Plan how it happens.
Uh, and that's generally the wayI work anyway.
I tend to have a plan for whatthe whole novel is gonna look
(04:25):
like, um, what the major storybeats are, what the clues are
gonna be.
Um, but at the same time, I tryand I.
Leave myself enough room to beable to get down to the page and
make discoveries and play andfollow my intuition.
So the way I approached it wasto plan it enough so that I knew
(04:45):
what had to happen, but stillleave myself room for
creativity.
Natasha Rai (04:50):
Okay.
That sounds great.
So I do have some questions foryou around your teaching.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but as you've mentioned italready, we might as well get to
it now.
So.
Um, for people who are listeningwho might not be familiar, can
you tell us a little bit aboutwhat a three act structure is?
Zahid Gamieldien (05:09):
Um, a three act structure.
Uh, you know, broadly speaking,the, the three acts would be set
up, complication and payoff.
So at the start of a story,you'd establish a character, and
the character has some sort offlaw or a way in which they are
orphaned from the world atlarge.
Um, there'll be an incitingincident that comes in and
(05:30):
prompts them to go on a journey.
And then you have this kind of.
Dialectical relationship that'sset up between the, the events
and the character.
Whether a character tries topersist with, um, going on,
living in accordance with theirflaw, but the world is telling
them that they need to live in adifferent way.
And you put pressure on that allthrough act two.
Act three generally is theclimax and resolution where they
(05:54):
have to, in some high stakessituation, overcome their flaw
and act in accordance with theway the world has been arguing
that they should act for theentirety of act two.
Does that make sense?
Natasha Rai (06:04):
Yes, it does.
Um, and what would be a sevenACT structure?
You said seven, act too, right?
Zahid Gamieldien (06:09):
Oh, I mean that, that, now that gets more
complicated, but basically you'dbe breaking a three act
structure up into furtherpieces.
So you'd have, the opening wouldbe the prison or orphan section.
Then you'd have the incitingincident, you'd have a moment of
high tension that makes thecharacter aware of, um.
What the stakes are.
If they continue to act inaccordance with their flaw,
(06:29):
you'd have a midpoint wheresomething happens that is
basically like a, a climax inthe middle of the story, and
your story kind of has that sortof structure to it, and that is
what forces the character tobegin to change.
After that, you have a, a sortof, uh, surrender or all is lost
points.
Then you get into the climax andresolution.
Natasha Rai (06:52):
So that, uh, kind of draws out the three act into
a bit more detail.
Zahid Gamieldien (06:56):
Into more detail.
Natasha Rai (06:57):
So in all the missing children, your inciting
incident is the children goingmissing?
Zahid Gamieldien (07:02):
That's right.
Yeah.
That's the inciting incident forthe entire thing.
And that the inciting incidentgenerally sets up the, the main
question that the reader isgonna be thinking about the
whole way, which is, you know,what happened to these kids?
Natasha Rai (07:14):
And was that your starting point?
Was that your question that youstarted with?
Like what happened to thesekids?
Zahid Gamieldien (07:19):
Yeah.
That, that was part of the, thequestion that I was starting
with.
But I was much more interestedin the effect that their
disappearance had on the othercharacters.
So I was more interested in theemotional and psychological
journeys of these othercharacters rather than the
mystery of what happened to thechildren.
Mm.
But at the same time, I didwanna provide sort of closure to
(07:40):
that question for people who areinterested in an at a plot
level.
Natasha Rai (07:44):
Okay.
I really wanna say somethingabout that, but I don't wanna
give anything away.
No, I don't wanna give anythingaway.
'cause I feel like if I say whatI was thinking about, it will
give away a bit of the ending,so I'm not gonna do that.
Zahid Gamieldien (07:54):
Sure.
Natasha Rai (07:55):
Um, and so you also mentioned, and I like to get
specific because uh, we havequite a mix of listeners and.
Sometimes we not forget, butwe're not, yeah.
It's good to pitch it in a waythat people understand what we
mean.
Mm-hmm.
So you also mentioned storybeats.
Can you
Zahid Gamieldien (08:15):
Story beats?
Natasha Rai (08:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Can you say a little bit aboutwhat that is?
Zahid Gamieldien (08:18):
Uh oh.
I mean, story beats can be largeor small.
I guess when I'm talking aboutstory beats, I'm mainly
referring to the major plotpoints within the knob.
Natasha Rai (08:28):
Okay.
And these major plot points helpdrive the action forward.
Zahid Gamieldien (08:31):
Uh, they help drive the action forward, but
they work in conjunction withthe character's journey.
So action and charactershouldn't really be thought of
as two separate things.
They have to be intertwined ifyou want to create a satisfying
story structure.
Natasha Rai (08:44):
Mm-hmm.
And that is a top tip already.
Uh, okay.
So coming back to your novel,then, you had this question
about the impact of thesemissing children on these
characters.
Zahid Gamieldien (09:00):
Mm-hmm.
Natasha Rai (09:00):
And you've got three, no, hang on.
1, 2, 4 different characters.
And so was, how did each come toyou?
Like, was it over time, did youkind of have very strong ideas
about who and when?
Zahid Gamieldien (09:18):
Well, the first part of this novel that I
actually wrote was part four.
Um, and so I had that kind ofset down and I knew the most
about that part.
And
Natasha Rai (09:28):
which is, uh, just to clarify, that's a character
of Nera,
Zahid Gamieldien (09:32):
that's the character of Nera.
Yeah.
So she's a, uh, city lawyerwho's retired to spend her time
on a, on a country farm.
Um, but I did think about thecharacters.
In relation to each other.
Mm-hmm.
And that's kind of how it cameabout.
So Eileen is in some ways amirror image of Nera, Eileen
being, uh, the character in partone who's the mother of the
(09:54):
these children.
Um, and so because they're amirror, there's a sort of, uh,
natural story that arises fromthat.
But what I also wanted to do wasdraw characters that are broadly
representative of.
A community.
So the characters are drawn fromdifferent socioeconomic
backgrounds.
Uh, you know, they're fromdifferent classes, they have
(10:16):
different ethnicities.
And so what you get is a kind ofportrait of how far reaching,
um, disappearance of thesechildren, uh, is in relation to
the public consciousness.
Natasha Rai (10:30):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And that really comes through.
How long did it take you towrite a draft?
Zahid Gamieldien (10:37):
To write a draft?
Um, I don't know.
It depends how you count really.
So, okay.
So, um, I began writing this,uh, early on, so this probably
has some overlap with, uh, mypublication journey in relation
to this specific novel.
So, um, I think it was the, youknow.
(11:00):
Like pre pandemic, I, I had thisidea that I could get a
collection of short storiespublished,'cause I had a number
of short stories in print and Ithought it might be a good way
to break into the publishingindustry if I could get these
short stories published.
And mm-hmm.
On the basis of that, I got ameeting with a publisher and the
publisher said, I really likeyour short stories, but
(11:21):
generally in Australia whathappens is you write a novel
first, and once the novel comesout, then.
You are kind of allowed topublish this short story
collection.
And I thought, okay, that's,that's interesting.
So I pivoted towards writingthis novel.
Um, I.
And again, this reflects my lackof understanding of the
publishing industry.
But I thought if I have astandalone novella as a proof of
(11:44):
concept for the novel, I couldtake that to a publisher and
say, can you please give me somemoney to finish the rest of this
novel, um, dream.
And so, yeah.
And I thought, oh, that, that'dbe amazing, wouldn't it?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so I'm, I, I.
Took that to an agent, um, whohad liked some of my work
before.
And he said, look, I love this.
(12:05):
Um, where's the rest of thisnovel?
And I said, uh, I, I, I haven'twritten it.
Do I have to?
And he said, well, yes, if youwant to take it to a publisher,
it's usually best to have anentire novel.
And so I, I was working on it,um, in a kind of piecemeal
fashion while working on otherthings.
And, you know, I had youngchildren, the pandemic happened.
(12:26):
Um, so I was kind of working onit in the background over a
period of, you know, maybe threeyears or something like that.
Um.
And I was also doingscreenwriting.
And through my screenwriting Imet a producer and she said, do
you have any work that I couldread?
'cause we're we're interested init.
And I said, well, I have half anovel sitting around.
(12:47):
Um, and she said, oh, I'd loveto read that.
And so.
So I gave that to her and shefollowed up and said, oh, I love
this half a novel that you'vegot.
Can I read the other half?
And I said, well, do I have towrite the other half?
And she said, well, yeah, yeah,you have to.
So I went about, and she said,how long would that take?
And I optimistically said, oh,probably just a couple of months
(13:09):
for me to finish that.
Um.
Six months later, I had thenovel complete and I took it
back to the agent who'd shown aninterest and I was very, um,
lucky that they were stillinterested and wanted to sign up
the work.
And they helped me with the dealwith the producer for the TV
show, and also helped me find apublisher.
Natasha Rai (13:29):
So it sounds like your novel got interest from a
TV connection before thepublisher.
You published Ultimo Press?
Yes.
You eventually went on topublish the novel.
Zahid Gamieldien (13:42):
Mm-hmm.
Natasha Rai (13:43):
That's, uh, pretty unusual.
Zahid Gamieldien (13:45):
Yeah, that is, that is pretty unusual.
Um, so I wasn't even sure that Iwanted the agent to take it on
at that time.
I wanted the producer to beinterested in that time because
I felt that it would just puttime pressure on me.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but in the end, I think thatwas helpful because I'm not.
Uh, convinced that I wouldnecessarily have finished the
(14:08):
novel if I hadn't had the timepressure on me.
Natasha Rai (14:10):
Ah, we're gonna come back to time a bit later.
Um, but seeing as we, uh, havegotten onto the subject of
publication journey, so, um, yousent me a message yesterday
about what prompted you orinspired your first, I dunno,
foray into writing.
Zahid Gamieldien (14:30):
I did, yeah.
I was, um, thinking about thepublication journey and I was
thinking back to my firstattempt to write a novel, which
happened when I was eight yearsold and I had read, um, Judy
Bloom's Super Fudge and Tales ofa Fourth Grade Nothing.
And I thought, excellent.
You know, I, I'd love excellentto be able to do that.
And so I started writing a noveland really all I remember from
(14:52):
that novel is that it had a lotof poo and vomit jokes that was,
well, of
Natasha Rai (14:57):
course.
Yeah.
I mean that's, that sounds likea cornerstone of any great novel
Zahid Gamieldien (15:02):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So, so that was my first foray,and I, I did make two other
attempts to write a novel beforethis one, but this was my first
actually
Natasha Rai (15:11):
what, since you were eight?
Zahid Gamieldien (15:12):
Since I was eight.
I made two other attempts beforewriting all the missing
children.
Um, although none of them wereactually finished, I, I
abandoned all of them.
Natasha Rai (15:22):
Okay, so, um, we don't have to go year by year of
your life, don't worry.
But you are eight, you have a goat writing this novel.
Um, and then what happens, likeyou go to school, high school
mm-hmm.
Maybe university.
I know that you've trained orstudied in something other than
writing.
Zahid Gamieldien (15:41):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (15:41):
So at what point did you decide to have a, I
guess want of a better word.
Proper go.
Zahid Gamieldien (15:48):
A proper go.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I had always planned to findmy way back to writing.
Mm-hmm.
But, you know, I think.
It was important to me to gainindependence, I guess, and it's
not, I, I don't come from wealthand so I wanted to, uh, you
know, get a degree, get a job,move out of home, all of those
(16:11):
sorts of things.
And, and so what I had alwaysplanned to do was work for a
little while.
And when I had, um, establishedmyself, I guess, or given myself
a bit of leeway financially, uh,I would return to writing.
And so.
Uh, my wife, uh, who I met inlaw school, we'd, we'd both kind
of worked as lawyers and shecame to me and said, this, this
(16:33):
law thing is really not for me.
I think I wanna be a doctor.
And so I said, okay, that seems,that seems fair.
Um, and so she went andretrained as a, as a.
Doctor, and she's now a gp andyou know, she's, she's amazing.
Um, and at some point she said,I'd like to do a stint in the
country, uh, to, to gain, um,experience there.
(16:57):
And so for me that was kind ofthe, the turning point because
I.
The university was putting usup, um, in accommodation and
paying her a stipend, and wedidn't have huge expenses.
And so I thought, well, I'llquit my job and I'll take a year
and I'll see where this writingthing actually goes.
Um, and so that's what I did andI, I was, um, lucky enough to
(17:22):
have a short story publishedshortly after I'd, I'd done
that.
And, um, I haven't said this tome.
Very many people, but actuallycried when that short story was
published because just, oh, it'sa huge moment,
Natasha Rai (17:35):
isn't it?
It was, it was such a, just arecognition.
Zahid Gamieldien (17:37):
Absolutely.
And, and, you know, I was sortof like, well, maybe I can do
this.
And, and I sort of took it fromthere.
Natasha Rai (17:44):
Well, as a big fan of your work, I'm glad you did.
Zahid Gamieldien (17:48):
Oh, thank you very much.
Natasha Rai (17:49):
Um, so.
All of that con all, not all ofthat, all those conversations
happened with the agent andyour, the producer after that
year or during while you werestill working on it?
Zahid Gamieldien (18:02):
Oh, no, no, no.
After which year, sorry.
Natasha Rai (18:05):
So that year that you're talking about where you
lived in the country, did youstart writing?
Zahid Gamieldien (18:09):
Um, no, no.
Natasha Rai (18:10):
Oh, sorry.
You were writing something else.
Zahid Gamieldien (18:11):
So I, I wrote short stories for quite a long
period.
Natasha Rai (18:15):
Ah, right.
Got
Zahid Gamieldien (18:16):
After that.
Um, and.
How many years?
Probably, probably four or fiveyears after that that I started
working on missing children.
So the one year that I was meantto take out turned into several
years.
But, um, I was, uh, fortunate toget a job teaching.
I.
Creative writing.
(18:36):
Uh, so I could do that whileworking on my own project.
Natasha Rai (18:40):
Ah, got it.
Okay.
And then in terms of teaching,you teach adults, is that right?
Like
Zahid Gamieldien (18:45):
I do, yeah.
Natasha Rai (18:46):
Creative writing, not children.
Zahid Gamieldien (18:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (18:48):
Um, and it sounds like you do take what you know
into your own work, like interms of structure and the
questions that you mentionedthat you ask yourself when
you're starting mm-hmm.
A manuscript, um.
Does it always impact yourapproach, what you like, what
you teach to others, or do youkind of just go, oh, well I say
(19:09):
this to my students, but I'll godo something else?
Zahid Gamieldien (19:12):
There's, there's probably a two part kind
of answer to that questionbecause I think I, I do think.
Understanding story structure islike incredibly useful for any
writer.
Mm-hmm.
And I would encourage allwriters to, to gain an
understanding of it.
And to be honest, storystructure is something that I
only fully, I don't even know ifI fully understand it now, but I
(19:35):
only understood, uh, well afterI started teaching it.
So when I was a student, Ididn't quite get it.
But when I started teaching it,I think I, I.
Gained a far better grasp of it,and I think whether or not you
want to follow story structure,challenge it, um, you know, uh.
(19:55):
In some ways, you're alwaysinteracting with it and knowing
the ways in which you'reinteracting with it can be
really helpful if you're puttingtogether a, a novel and a lot of
the manuscripts that I see andeven some works in, in that I
see that are in print, I tend tothink, well, this might have
been better if the, if thewriter had a deeper
understanding of structure andhow they work.
(20:17):
Um.
Interact with it.
So I definitely take that partinto my writing, but I don't
necessarily follow traditionalstory structure.
And I think that's evident withthe book that I've written.
Um, and I think the second partof that is I.
That when I started teaching, I,I think I clung to the
(20:38):
certainties of style guides andthings like that when it came to
craft, so, mm-hmm.
You know, if I saw an adverb,I'd be like, strike this adverb,
get it away from me.
Um, or, you know, if, ifsomebody used as, as a
conjunction, I'd be like, no, Idon't.
I don't think so my friend.
Mm-hmm.
But the longer you go on, themore you teach, the more you
(20:59):
read, the more you understandthat there are.
Almost an infinite number ofways in which to write well.
Um, and you become more relaxedabout those sort of craft things
as you go along.
So.
You start focusing less on thetechnical aspects of craft and
(21:19):
what you're teaching people andmore on how the pros and the
story, how those elements landwith, um, an intelligent,
literate, engaged reader.
Um, so maybe that is anothertip.
Don't, don't sweat the technicalrules that you see in a style
book, but focus on the effectthat your craft has on readers.
Natasha Rai (21:42):
There is a balance though, because I mean, I think
some emergent writers, dependingon who they're talking to or
where they're getting their, uh,lessons, I guess from.
Get told that they can't breakthe rules, right?
Yeah.
That you have to follow therules and then once you are
established, whatever thatmeans, mm-hmm.
You can break them.
But also at the same time, whenyou look at what's winning
(22:03):
prizes, um, even especiallyunpublished manuscript, more and
more manuscripts that take risksare being awarded those prizes.
I'm not asking you your take onthat.
I guess I'm asking if somebodydoes wanna break the rules in
some way, what would be youradvice to them about how they
could do that?
Zahid Gamieldien (22:22):
I, I mean, I think the only real rule is, you
know, if it works, it works.
And I think that's a, that's agood rule of thumb.
So I think if you focus on howit lands with your readers and
what sort of feedback you'regetting from your trusted
readers, like that's really whatshould be guiding you.
Um, and there is a tensionbetween.
(22:43):
The market and artistic merit,you know?
Mm-hmm.
It is the publishing industryafter all.
So if you're taking risks, itmight be that a publisher is
less likely to allow you to getthat in print.
Taking risks.
Um, I.
When you're new and more likelyto allow it when you've, you
know, written your third, fourthbook.
(23:04):
So mm-hmm.
It, it's a function of market asmuch as it is about the artistic
merit of what you're writing.
Natasha Rai (23:11):
Yeah, totally.
Bianca Breen (23:16):
Hi, I'm Bianca Breen and my debut novel is a YA
Fantasy called Made of Steam andStardust.
It's published on 12th of May byStag Beetle books in the US.
When a Comet hurdles toward herplanet 16-year-old inventor,
Gerdie is determined to stop itand use her success to improve
the conditions of the factoriesshe works in.
(23:37):
She'll build a machine that willsave the world, but as she hunts
for the paths to build hercreation, she encounters fell.
A mysterious boy with anunsettling connection to the
Comet, he's being hunted by theruthless Conqueror Seki, and
soon Gerdie is too.
On the run, the duo uncovers achilling secret blueprints for a
(23:57):
deadly army of automatons.
The army is nearly complete, buta final piece is still missing.
If Gerdie doesn't find it beforeConqueror Seki does, the comet
will be the least of herworries.
I.
I hope readers love theadventure, the quirkiness, and
the heart of the novel.
I hope it reminds them thatalthough the beautiful nature on
this earth is strong, it stillneeds our help, and I hope it
(24:19):
prompts them to look up at thestars every now and then.
Natasha Rai (24:27):
Other common mistakes or errors or.
I don't wanna use the wordtropes, but maybe patterns that
you see in emerging writers orthe manuscripts that you get to
look at.
Zahid Gamieldien (24:40):
Generally.
The thing that you'll notice iswhen a story is driven by events
rather than character.
Because, uh, people tend not tounderstand that.
Uh, readers are, are mostlyinterested in understanding your
character and going on a journeywith them.
And if you are imposing storyevents on that character that
(25:03):
are unnatural and you're forcingthem to make choices that they
wouldn't believably make for thesake of drama, readers are going
to cotton onto that reallyquickly and they're gonna react
against it.
I think that's, uh, one of themajor mistakes that emerging
writers make that you see in alot of manuscripts.
Um, and maybe that comes out ofa sense of.
(25:24):
Wanting to rush, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Writers not being patient withthemselves and their work,
because especially when you are,when you are young and you are
trying to get into print, youthink you have to do it
tomorrow.
Whereas the truth is you, youknow, when you start out,
there's going to be a gap, asIra Glass says, between what you
(25:46):
are writing and the sort ofliterature that you might enjoy
reading.
And the only way to close thatgap is to spend time on it,
practice your craft, to keep, tokeep writing.
Um, and it's sometimes I thinkit's gonna be a gap that you're
never really gonna feel like isever closed.
'cause um, I've got a book inprint and, and you know, I, I
(26:10):
certainly don't think I'm at thelevel of the writers that I was
trying to emulate and I when Istarted, and all you can do is
just.
Keep going.
Put the time in and hope thatyou close that gap.
Natasha Rai (26:22):
Totally.
Excellent advice.
So, I mean, I, I know that whenwe first met, I was intimidated
by the idea that you are awriting teacher, because I was
like, oh my God, this guy knowseverything about writing.
So how did, when you've got amanuscript ready or a draft that
you are okay with.
(26:45):
Do you have trusted readers andand or mentors that you also
need that feedback from?
Or are you kind of thinking,well, I know what I'm doing, I
know my way around a story,characters, et cetera, so I
don't need that.
Zahid Gamieldien (26:59):
Uh, no, I don't think you ever feel like
you know what you're doing.
That's, that's one thing that Ithink, you know, there, there
are, there's that famous quotewhere it's like, you know,
writing is a craft where inwhich we're all apprentices and
which in which none of us becomea master.
And I, and I think that's true.
Um, I don't think.
Anyone can write the perfectnovel or know everything.
(27:21):
You are constantly learning.
You're constantly improving.
Um, so yes, I have a lot ofself-doubt about my work, and
I'm constantly talking to mywife, Kirsty, and I, I go to her
and I say, you know, I think Imight be a bad writer.
And she'll say, no, no, you'renot.
I've, you know, I've read yourwork.
You've got all of these thingspublished behind you, and I go.
(27:43):
Yeah, but is that evidencethough?
I don't really know.
And so, you know, and, but thenthere are days where I think,
oh, you know, I've writtensomething that's really
worthwhile and great.
And, you know, I, I think that'scompletely normal to, to feel as
a writer.
Um, and absolutely havingtrusted readers.
Helps you because every time Isend something to my trusted
(28:05):
readers, I worry that they'regonna be like, this is complete
rubbish.
So I, I don't know that that'sever gonna go away for me as a
writer.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't know about otherpeople's experiences, but I, I
feel it's really important.
And having their feedback givesme a degree of confidence about
the work.
'cause I think, well, you know,someone thinks it's worthwhile
(28:26):
and.
The trusted readers that I have,thankfully are intelligent,
literate, kind, and criticalpeople.
So, um, for example, I have astory that's coming out in
Overland that I wrote a littlewhile ago, and it's been sitting
there and one of my trustedreaders.
Just intermittently would justsend me a text message going
(28:48):
like, what are you doing withthat story?
It's really great.
And I was, I kept going, oh, I'mnot really sure that it is that
great.
And he was like, well, submitit.
See what happens.
And so I submitted it and Itexted him saying, oh, that
story got accepted.
It's gonna be published.
And he just replied, of courseit is.
You idiot.
And I think you need people inyour life Yeah.
(29:08):
Who are going to be both.
You know, e encouraging andcritical.
Natasha Rai (29:13):
Yeah.
Your own cheering squad.
Your own private cheerleaders.
Zahid Gamieldien (29:16):
Well, not necessarily cheerleaders'cause
you want them to tell it like itis you
Natasha Rai (29:20):
No, but they're, they're giving critical
feedback, but they're alsosaying it's worth something.
It's, that's
Zahid Gamieldien (29:25):
right.
Natasha Rai (29:25):
They're right.
Offer good enough standard andequality.
And if it's not there, they'recheering you on to say keep
working on it.
Right.
Zahid Gamieldien (29:32):
Yeah, yeah.
And telling you the ways inwhich you can improve it.
I think that's important.
Yes,
Natasha Rai (29:36):
exactly.
And it's important as well, Ithink to have.
People around you who are notjust family or spouses because
they are supposed to say theylove it and they're supposed to
say that you're good.
Right?
Zahid Gamieldien (29:48):
That's right.
Right.
Yeah, exactly.
I, I've actually told this, thisstory before, but I, I, when
Kirsty reads my work, I do thisterrible thing, which is that I
watch her as she's reading it.
Natasha Rai (29:58):
Oh my God.
Oh my God, that poor woman.
Zahid Gamieldien (30:01):
And she, she absolutely hates it because of
course she hates it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so now she, she kind ofwithdraws to somewhere else to
read it and then comes back and,and gives me the feedback on it.
Natasha Rai (30:11):
Oh my God.
Yeah.
You need to, yeah.
I'm glad you, well, I'm gladshe's figured I had to get away
from you because that would domy head in.
Yeah.
Uh, so you said earlier, Zahid,that about your novel about.
The crime element and leaving itmaybe unresolved or up to the
reader.
That's right.
Yeah.
And the impact of it on theother characters.
(30:32):
So I, I mean, this is a doublebarrel question, so you can
choose to answer all of it ormm-hmm.
One or both elements.
Um, how did, how was it for youthat, you know, somebody like
Ultima Press, you know, areputable, really good quality
publisher took a.
Risk, I suppose, on somethingthat is unusual for a debut
writer and also, um, what wasthat discussion like in terms of
(30:57):
marketing?
Because this kind of defies yourbook, defies, uh, easy kind of.
Definition in terms of thank,thank you.
Categorization is a better word.
Zahid Gamieldien (31:10):
Yeah.
Um, yeah, I mean, I'm assumingmost people wouldn't have read
it.
It's sort of, it is a strangebook in that it doesn't fit
neatly into any genre.
Um, it's been classed as complexcrime, horror, aura, mystery,
uh.
Gothic fiction, literaryfiction, those, I think those
(31:33):
are the five ways it's been kindof described.
And um, that does make itdifficult from a marketing point
of view.
Uh, I think of it as literaryfiction, but I might just think
of it in that way because thatsuggests that I can do whatever
I want in terms of genre mm-hmm.
Without having to worry aboutit.
(31:53):
Um, but if you think about itas.
Crime fiction, then it is kindof difficult because it doesn't
do the things that crime fictionreaders might expect from.
Yes.
That sort of novel
Natasha Rai (32:04):
and interestingly, and I'm trying to word this so
carefully without givinganything away, there is a crime
element, but it's not theelement that you are set up to
think it will be.
That was so clumsy.
Um, so what, I mean, I'm talkingabout Omar and that's all I'm
gonna say, that there is acrime.
His is a more, I guess,traditional crime story, but you
(32:27):
find out very quickly that he isnot investigating the thing you
think he's investigating.
Yeah.
Zahid Gamieldien (32:31):
Yeah.
So, you know, structurally thatwas the gambit for that section.
And, and it's the way in which,um, it plays with crime fiction
structure in the sense that youthink the question that's being
set up is one thing, but thequestion that is answered by the
end of that is a different one.
Um, and.
I was hoping that people werewilling to go along with that
(32:54):
for the, for the crime fictionsection.
But overall, there's not adetective character that goes
through and attempts to solve,um, the core question of what
happened to the, to the twochildren that go missing at the
end of part one.
And, um, there's no scene inwhich all of the facts are laid
out for the reader.
And you are told the answer now.
(33:16):
Crime fiction readers tend toexpect that.
Exactly.
Yes.
If you are a crime fictionreader, you are going to be
engaging with a different kindof experience.
Um, and when Ultimo Press cameon board, they spoke to me about
it as a crossover.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So it's a literary novel thatcrosses over into other genre
(33:37):
categories.
And one of the genre carcategories into which it crosses
is crime fiction.
So it was marketed to a sectionof the crime fiction, um,
readership or, or mm-hmm.
Audience.
Mm-hmm.
And.
The compromise that we kind ofcame to was that it could sit
there, but the cover would be avery non-traditional crime
(33:59):
fiction cover.
So the cover, which is Yes.
Yeah.
It, it doesn't, it doesn't looklike other crime fiction novels
you would encounter.
Um, and it has some.
Horror elements, some mysteryelements, maybe some literary
fiction suggestion as part ofthe cover.
Um, and that's the intention ofthat is to put people on notice
that if you are buying thisbook, you're not getting the,
(34:22):
the normal crime fictionexperience, even if it has some
crime fiction elements.
Natasha Rai (34:26):
Hmm.
Because that's,'cause I, I findthis really interesting'cause
I've had quite a few writers oremerging writers say to me that
they're not writing somethingthat is easily definable.
Zahid Gamieldien (34:35):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (34:36):
Um, so I guess your experience speaks to write it
anyway because you will findmaybe a home for it at some
point, but you will find apublisher who's willing to take
that risk.
I mean, who,'cause it is a risk,
Zahid Gamieldien (34:49):
right?
It is a risk.
It is a risk.
And as I was saying, it's, youknow, there are market factors.
Involved in, in them, they makea calculation over how many
units they think they can shiftwith your novel, and that
probably determines whether ornot they're willing to take the
risk on it.
So, you know, if you want a moresure fire path to publication,
(35:09):
then uh, eliminating publicationrisks is one way of doing it.
But I would probably encouragepeople to write the thing that
they want to write and just do.
As good a job as they possiblycan.
Um, and if it's, if it's goodenough, hopefully, um, the
market will find a place for it.
Natasha Rai (35:29):
Yeah.
Uh, as the market tends to dofor things that are brilliant
and different.
Zahid Gamieldien (35:36):
Yeah.
But brilliant and different is,is, uh, a hard bar to meet
sometimes.
Um,
Natasha Rai (35:42):
good enough and different.
Zahid Gamieldien (35:43):
Good enough and different.
Good enough and different.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (35:46):
Um, so you mentioned earlier about timing.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm getting a sense,actually, I've heard you say it,
so it's not just a sense, um,that you sometimes struggle with
your time management.
So in terms of,
Zahid Gamieldien (35:58):
are you outing me in this podcast for
struggling with time management?
Natasha Rai (36:00):
You literally said it.
You actually said it on not apodcast.
So I'm not outing you.
Okay.
It's not something that's notalready available.
Zahid Gamieldien (36:05):
It's already in the public domain.
Natasha Rai (36:06):
It's already in the public domain.
Um, so I guess my question isabout what sustains you and
supports you to keep writing andhow you do approach time
management, because I know youhave family commitments, um, as
well as, you know, youngchildren and all the, you know,
life stuff that a lot of peoplehave.
So how do you find.
Time to do your writingpractice?
Zahid Gamieldien (36:28):
Um, oh, I, I, I mean, I was struggling, uh,
before when I was working, uh,teaching, writing and, uh,
writing as well.
I have taken some time off fromteaching, um, because I was, I
got a two book deal and I have adeadline, a looming deadline,
uh, to get in my secondmanuscript.
(36:50):
And so I felt like I needed to,to take that time.
Um.
So primarily that's really whereI've, uh, stolen time from is,
is from the other job that Iused to work.
And, um, I was lucky enough toget a create New South Wales
grant, which kind ofsupplemented my income and gave
(37:10):
me the freedom to write.
And that's another thing that Iwould really encourage people to
do is apply for grants.
Uh, I know that.
It's a bit of a crapshoot andyou never know what the outcome
is gonna be, but it could begood.
And if the, if you know, theworst thing that can happen is
that you're in the exact sameposition that you are already
in.
Natasha Rai (37:28):
Exactly.
Yeah.
Zahid Gamieldien (37:30):
So, so I would say really, you know, apply for
whatever grants, uh, you'reeligible for.
So, you know that, I thinkthat's mainly where I've stolen
time from.
Um, it is, it is hard if youhave family commitments and
children.
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes,
Natasha Rai (37:46):
of course.
Yeah.
Zahid Gamieldien (37:47):
Um.
But you know, the, the rewardsare, are worth it, I think, for
me anyway.
Natasha Rai (37:53):
Yeah.
And it's about finding whatworks for the individual, right?
So if you know you have time inthe morning or in the afternoon
or whatever it is, how manytimes a week you just make that
work?
I.
Zahid Gamieldien (38:03):
Yeah, that's absolutely right.
You, you need to, whatever timeyou, you have, you need to be
able to make it work.
And I used to write on my phone,on the bus, so I would be, you
know, open up an email that Iwould send to myself and just
hammer away and hope that Icould figure something out that
way.
So, you know, whatever time youcan dedicate to it, like you,
you need to steal that from,from your life and do it.
Natasha Rai (38:26):
Yeah.
Um, so we've got a little bitmore time for a couple more
questions.
Um.
What have you learned along theway?
What's the most important, orig,maybe not important, but
significant lesson that you'velearned along the way?
In terms of anything publishing,writing, craft.
Time management.
Zahid Gamieldien (38:48):
Um, I mean, I can talk about the, the way that
I try and approach writing.
'cause I, when I carve out spacefor writing, I find that I do my
best work if I'm in a deepthinking zone.
And it can be really hard.
To get into that zone as awriter, especially if, you know,
there's a finite amount of timethat you'll be writing.
(39:08):
So, you know, before I startwriting, I, you know, I, I work,
do all my work on Scrivener.
I open Scrivener up, I'll dosome breathing to mm-hmm.
To get me in the, into the zone.
And I put on binaural beats andI put my headphones on.
So I have this kind of.
Going and then I know thatthat's a signal to me that this
(39:29):
time is the time that I'm gonnaspend writing.
Um, and so I think creating somesort of.
Not necessarily ritual, but, butsomething you do that suggests
like, this is my time to writeand that's what I'm gonna be
doing for this period, can bereally helpful.
Um, in terms of what else, whatelse have I learned?
(39:49):
Well, I, I think, um, and I saidthis on a panel that I was on,
uh, with you earlier, but, uh,you know, the Australian writing
and publishing industry isreally small, so, you know,
that's good and bad.
It's bad in the sense that the,the market can be risk averse
and you know, it, it might beharder to get something, uh, in
(40:13):
print that is literary fictionand really different.
Um, but it's good in the sensethat you get to meet all of
these different riders when,when you go around and.
Generally speaking, they're,they're lovely people.
They're supportive and they're,you know, not arrogant and they
want to talk about writing.
They're interested in what youare doing, you are interested in
(40:35):
what they're doing.
So it's a really nice,supportive community, generally
speaking.
And that's one thing that I'velearned.
Natasha Rai (40:43):
Totally, definitely wholeheartedly agree.
Um, and in terms of thatpractice that you mentioned, you
know, getting like almost aritual to start is for you, does
that only work when you are athome, like in your private
space, or can you do that, Idon't know, in a library or a
cafe, or does it have to be kindof like a quiet, empty, private
space?
Zahid Gamieldien (41:04):
Well, I tend to like writing in, in a quiet,
empty space.
Um, but uh, it's not a.
I, I'm describing that practicemore as an example, rather than
saying, this is the thing thatyou should do.
Natasha Rai (41:18):
Yeah,
Zahid Gamieldien (41:18):
and I think that some writers love going to
a cafe and settling down towrite.
Some writers get their bestideas when they're walking.
Some writers really like wastingwater and having really long
showers'cause that's the onlyway they can solve their story
problems.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, all ofthose things.
Can work.
(41:38):
And as a writer you just need tofind the practice that helps you
be your most creative.
Natasha Rai (41:43):
Yeah, totally.
And I know that you've alreadysnuck in lots and lots of
excellent tips in this episode,but I'm wondering if there's
anything that you brought inthat you haven't said or any
kind of final tip for,especially for emerging writers
who maybe are looking for atraditional publishing, you
know, deal.
Zahid Gamieldien (42:01):
Right.
Um, so when I've been asked thisquestion before, I've said stuff
like.
Finish what you start.
And maybe that's advice that Iwould've wanted to give my
younger self as well.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, and I've also said, youknow, seek, seek balance in your
writing.
You know, be, uh, haveself-belief, be stubborn, but
also at the right times, be openand, and have humility.
(42:23):
So, um, maybe one thing Ihaven't really spoken a lot
about is, um, perseverance.
And you do hear a lot of peopletalking about the need.
For, for perseverance when youare writing.
But I always think, well, how doyou actually do that?
Mm.
Um, and I think it's abouthaving the right mindset when it
(42:45):
comes to your writing.
So what you want to feel aboutyour writing is that you are
happy with how far you've come,but you know that you can still
do better.
Um, and I think if you cultivatethat mindset.
Then when you face a setback,you can think, oh yeah.
(43:05):
Like that's, that's fine.
I'm proud of that work.
It didn't quite make it, but I'ma better writer now than I was
then, and this next work isgonna be better.
And I.
When you have a success, you canthink, oh, you know, I'm really
happy that that made it intoprint and I'm now a better
writer, so I'm gonna go writesomething else.
You know?
And I was thinking about thisthis morning and I was like,
(43:26):
well, what do I call this?
Do I have a name for it?
Do I call it, you know, happydissatisfaction or like
something like that.
And then I thought, you're notbeing particularly innovative
here by saying this.
You just, um.
Stealing from Samuel Beckett.
You know, there's the, uh, ever,ever failed, ever tried, ever
failed, fail again, failedbetter.
(43:47):
And that's really how you shouldgo into it.
So the tip is steal from SamuelBeckett and you No, no.
The tip, the tip is be, be happywith how far you've come as a
writer.
Um, but know that you can stilldo better because that's, that's
the way new and great art ismade and will always be made.
Natasha Rai (44:10):
And you know, just to expand on that, a way to be
happy with what you've done isto look at older drafts or to
look at what you were writingand how much has improved.
'cause it, because it can behard to go, oh, I'm really happy
with the fact that I wasrejected, or, you know, this is
fine, this is great.
Next time.
It does help to look at oldstuff.
I do that from time to time.
(44:30):
Yeah.
Thank you.
Oh, this is a crap.
Yeah,
Zahid Gamieldien (44:32):
absolutely.
That's the bit I forgot to sayis I think if you, um.
In practical terms, if you goback and look at something that
you wrote five, 10 years ago orsomething like that, you will be
able to see how much better youare now and you'll automatically
start editing that thing in yourmind.
So, yeah.
Natasha Rai (44:52):
Yeah.
Zahid Gamieldien (44:53):
You know, I, I think that's, that's just a way
of reminding yourself that youare on a journey.
You're always on a, on a journeyof improvement when you are
writing.
Um, and even though it's notlinear, it is.
Kind of always moving in onedirection, and that is towards
becoming a better writer.
Natasha Rai (45:14):
So profound.
I feel like we need to end thisepisode there.
I was gonna make a terrible jokeabout, especially if you go back
and look at your teenage poetry,you'll feel so much better.
But now I've ruined yourprofundity of saying that.
No, you have.
Zahid Gamieldien (45:28):
I will say I, I.
Looked at my teenage poetry alittle while ago and I was like,
oh my God, I'm so glad nobodyever saw it in this.
Um, and I threw out those, thoseold notebooks, even though
history.
Oh damn.
Well all this that there
Natasha Rai (45:42):
are like, we'll never see it.
Zahid Gamieldien (45:43):
Yeah.
Never see the light of day.
Natasha Rai (45:45):
Okay.
Well thank you so much forsharing all of that with me.
Um, we have come to the end ofour time to together today.
Um, thanks for those top tipsand um, best of luck with your
current manuscript.
Zahid Gamieldien (45:57):
Well, thank you and thanks so much for
having me on.
Natasha Rai (45:59):
My pleasure.
Tina Strachan (46:04):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new apps drop and to keep
up to date with what the pod isdoing.
You can also find us onInstagram.
This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover
by your host, Natasha Rai.
I'll be bringing you even moredebut and season authors as they
talk about their path topublication.
Madeleine Cleary (00:26):
The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters, which it's recorded
on.
And pays respect to their elderspast, present, and emerging.
Natasha Rai (00:39):
Zahid Gamieldien is an author, screenwriter, editor
and writing tutor.
His debut novel, all The MissingChildren, was published by
Ultimo Press in 2024.
He's had short fiction publishedin literary journals, including
Overland, Meanjin, Kill YourDarlings, Island Magazine, and
many others.
His work was listed for theRichell Prize and selected for
(01:00):
inclusion in the best of 40thanniversary edition of the UTS
Writers Anthology.
His unproduced screenwriting hasbeen listed for awards in
Australia and overseas, and asan editor and writing tutor,
he's helped several authors gettheir work into print.
He's received funding toundertake a residency at Varuna
(01:21):
House and two major arts grantsfrom Create New South Wales.
He has a short, new, short storycoming out in Overland, and his
second novel will probably bereleased in late 2026.
Hello, Zahid Gamieldien.
Welcome to the Book Dealpodcast.
Zahid Gamieldien (01:42):
Lovely to be here.
Natasha Rai (01:43):
Excellent.
How are you today?
Zahid Gamieldien (01:45):
I'm pretty well I think.
How are you?
Natasha Rai (01:47):
Yeah, I'm fine, thanks.
Um, so I would like to talk toyou a little bit today about
your novel, all The MissingChildren, and maybe some writing
practice, and then, um, go alittle bit into your publishing
journey.
Is that okay?
Zahid Gamieldien (02:02):
Alright.
Sounds like a plan.
Natasha Rai (02:03):
Okay.
So how about we start with yourelevator pitch for all the
missing children.
Zahid Gamieldien (02:07):
Okay, so All The Missing Children is a
literary mystery drama withcreeping supernatural elements.
It's about the effect that theenigmatic presence and
mysterious disappearance of twochildren has on various
characters from their workingclass mother to a suspended
detective who's obsessed with acold case.
And while these characters'stories unfold, as we get
further and further from thechildren's lived experience, the
(02:31):
novel provides clues that helpthe reader answer the question,
what happened to the children?
Natasha Rai (02:36):
Awesome.
That was a great pitch.
Zahid Gamieldien (02:38):
Thank you.
I've practiced it.
Natasha Rai (02:41):
Uh, so I've read it so I know how phenomenally good
it is.
Zahid Gamieldien (02:45):
Um, thank you.
Natasha Rai (02:46):
How did you start, like what was your starting
point for this novel in terms ofthose viewpoints and that kind
of common thread that you justmentioned?
Zahid Gamieldien (02:56):
Um.
Well, I guess I've taught noveland script writing for about 10
years, and so I'm very familiarwith traditional story structure
and a lot of traditional storystructure.
Whether you talk about it interms of three act structure or
four act structure or uh, sevensequence structure.
It's all kind of the same.
It's about establishing acharacter with a fundamental
(03:17):
flaw and then designing eventsthat.
Test that flaw until thecharacter changes and overcomes
it at the same time.
Your novel generally sets up astory question and goes about
kind of inexorably answeringthat question.
So the idea I had for this novelwas to design something that
outwardly moves away fromclosure, moves away from from
(03:40):
synthesis.
While in the background, thereader's given everything they
need to carry it towardsresolution themselves.
Um.
So what I wanted to do was witheach part of the story.
Give that a traditional storystructure.
Um, and so that character has acomplete journey.
And as you say, there are thesesubtle connections between the
(04:01):
different parts and all of theseclues are being given about the
main mystery.
Now, unfortunately, I found thatyou cannot approach a story like
that through pure intuition.
Um, you need to actually gothrough and.
Plan how it happens.
Uh, and that's generally the wayI work anyway.
I tend to have a plan for whatthe whole novel is gonna look
(04:25):
like, um, what the major storybeats are, what the clues are
gonna be.
Um, but at the same time, I tryand I.
Leave myself enough room to beable to get down to the page and
make discoveries and play andfollow my intuition.
So the way I approached it wasto plan it enough so that I knew
(04:45):
what had to happen, but stillleave myself room for
creativity.
Natasha Rai (04:50):
Okay.
That sounds great.
So I do have some questions foryou around your teaching.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but as you've mentioned italready, we might as well get to
it now.
So.
Um, for people who are listeningwho might not be familiar, can
you tell us a little bit aboutwhat a three act structure is?
Zahid Gamieldien (05:09):
Um, a three act structure.
Uh, you know, broadly speaking,the, the three acts would be set
up, complication and payoff.
So at the start of a story,you'd establish a character, and
the character has some sort offlaw or a way in which they are
orphaned from the world atlarge.
Um, there'll be an incitingincident that comes in and
(05:30):
prompts them to go on a journey.
And then you have this kind of.
Dialectical relationship that'sset up between the, the events
and the character.
Whether a character tries topersist with, um, going on,
living in accordance with theirflaw, but the world is telling
them that they need to live in adifferent way.
And you put pressure on that allthrough act two.
Act three generally is theclimax and resolution where they
(05:54):
have to, in some high stakessituation, overcome their flaw
and act in accordance with theway the world has been arguing
that they should act for theentirety of act two.
Does that make sense?
Natasha Rai (06:04):
Yes, it does.
Um, and what would be a sevenACT structure?
You said seven, act too, right?
Zahid Gamieldien (06:09):
Oh, I mean that, that, now that gets more
complicated, but basically you'dbe breaking a three act
structure up into furtherpieces.
So you'd have, the opening wouldbe the prison or orphan section.
Then you'd have the incitingincident, you'd have a moment of
high tension that makes thecharacter aware of, um.
What the stakes are.
If they continue to act inaccordance with their flaw,
(06:29):
you'd have a midpoint wheresomething happens that is
basically like a, a climax inthe middle of the story, and
your story kind of has that sortof structure to it, and that is
what forces the character tobegin to change.
After that, you have a, a sortof, uh, surrender or all is lost
points.
Then you get into the climax andresolution.
Natasha Rai (06:52):
So that, uh, kind of draws out the three act into
a bit more detail.
Zahid Gamieldien (06:56):
Into more detail.
Natasha Rai (06:57):
So in all the missing children, your inciting
incident is the children goingmissing?
Zahid Gamieldien (07:02):
That's right.
Yeah.
That's the inciting incident forthe entire thing.
And that the inciting incidentgenerally sets up the, the main
question that the reader isgonna be thinking about the
whole way, which is, you know,what happened to these kids?
Natasha Rai (07:14):
And was that your starting point?
Was that your question that youstarted with?
Like what happened to thesekids?
Zahid Gamieldien (07:19):
Yeah.
That, that was part of the, thequestion that I was starting
with.
But I was much more interestedin the effect that their
disappearance had on the othercharacters.
So I was more interested in theemotional and psychological
journeys of these othercharacters rather than the
mystery of what happened to thechildren.
Mm.
But at the same time, I didwanna provide sort of closure to
(07:40):
that question for people who areinterested in an at a plot
level.
Natasha Rai (07:44):
Okay.
I really wanna say somethingabout that, but I don't wanna
give anything away.
No, I don't wanna give anythingaway.
'cause I feel like if I say whatI was thinking about, it will
give away a bit of the ending,so I'm not gonna do that.
Zahid Gamieldien (07:54):
Sure.
Natasha Rai (07:55):
Um, and so you also mentioned, and I like to get
specific because uh, we havequite a mix of listeners and.
Sometimes we not forget, butwe're not, yeah.
It's good to pitch it in a waythat people understand what we
mean.
Mm-hmm.
So you also mentioned storybeats.
Can you
Zahid Gamieldien (08:15):
Story beats?
Natasha Rai (08:15):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Can you say a little bit aboutwhat that is?
Zahid Gamieldien (08:18):
Uh oh.
I mean, story beats can be largeor small.
I guess when I'm talking aboutstory beats, I'm mainly
referring to the major plotpoints within the knob.
Natasha Rai (08:28):
Okay.
And these major plot points helpdrive the action forward.
Zahid Gamieldien (08:31):
Uh, they help drive the action forward, but
they work in conjunction withthe character's journey.
So action and charactershouldn't really be thought of
as two separate things.
They have to be intertwined ifyou want to create a satisfying
story structure.
Natasha Rai (08:44):
Mm-hmm.
And that is a top tip already.
Uh, okay.
So coming back to your novel,then, you had this question
about the impact of thesemissing children on these
characters.
Zahid Gamieldien (09:00):
Mm-hmm.
Natasha Rai (09:00):
And you've got three, no, hang on.
1, 2, 4 different characters.
And so was, how did each come toyou?
Like, was it over time, did youkind of have very strong ideas
about who and when?
Zahid Gamieldien (09:18):
Well, the first part of this novel that I
actually wrote was part four.
Um, and so I had that kind ofset down and I knew the most
about that part.
And
Natasha Rai (09:28):
which is, uh, just to clarify, that's a character
of Nera,
Zahid Gamieldien (09:32):
that's the character of Nera.
Yeah.
So she's a, uh, city lawyerwho's retired to spend her time
on a, on a country farm.
Um, but I did think about thecharacters.
In relation to each other.
Mm-hmm.
And that's kind of how it cameabout.
So Eileen is in some ways amirror image of Nera, Eileen
being, uh, the character in partone who's the mother of the
(09:54):
these children.
Um, and so because they're amirror, there's a sort of, uh,
natural story that arises fromthat.
But what I also wanted to do wasdraw characters that are broadly
representative of.
A community.
So the characters are drawn fromdifferent socioeconomic
backgrounds.
Uh, you know, they're fromdifferent classes, they have
(10:16):
different ethnicities.
And so what you get is a kind ofportrait of how far reaching,
um, disappearance of thesechildren, uh, is in relation to
the public consciousness.
Natasha Rai (10:30):
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
And that really comes through.
How long did it take you towrite a draft?
Zahid Gamieldien (10:37):
To write a draft?
Um, I don't know.
It depends how you count really.
So, okay.
So, um, I began writing this,uh, early on, so this probably
has some overlap with, uh, mypublication journey in relation
to this specific novel.
So, um, I think it was the, youknow.
(11:00):
Like pre pandemic, I, I had thisidea that I could get a
collection of short storiespublished,'cause I had a number
of short stories in print and Ithought it might be a good way
to break into the publishingindustry if I could get these
short stories published.
And mm-hmm.
On the basis of that, I got ameeting with a publisher and the
publisher said, I really likeyour short stories, but
(11:21):
generally in Australia whathappens is you write a novel
first, and once the novel comesout, then.
You are kind of allowed topublish this short story
collection.
And I thought, okay, that's,that's interesting.
So I pivoted towards writingthis novel.
Um, I.
And again, this reflects my lackof understanding of the
publishing industry.
But I thought if I have astandalone novella as a proof of
(11:44):
concept for the novel, I couldtake that to a publisher and
say, can you please give me somemoney to finish the rest of this
novel, um, dream.
And so, yeah.
And I thought, oh, that, that'dbe amazing, wouldn't it?
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and so I'm, I, I.
Took that to an agent, um, whohad liked some of my work
before.
And he said, look, I love this.
(12:05):
Um, where's the rest of thisnovel?
And I said, uh, I, I, I haven'twritten it.
Do I have to?
And he said, well, yes, if youwant to take it to a publisher,
it's usually best to have anentire novel.
And so I, I was working on it,um, in a kind of piecemeal
fashion while working on otherthings.
And, you know, I had youngchildren, the pandemic happened.
(12:26):
Um, so I was kind of working onit in the background over a
period of, you know, maybe threeyears or something like that.
Um.
And I was also doingscreenwriting.
And through my screenwriting Imet a producer and she said, do
you have any work that I couldread?
'cause we're we're interested init.
And I said, well, I have half anovel sitting around.
(12:47):
Um, and she said, oh, I'd loveto read that.
And so.
So I gave that to her and shefollowed up and said, oh, I love
this half a novel that you'vegot.
Can I read the other half?
And I said, well, do I have towrite the other half?
And she said, well, yeah, yeah,you have to.
So I went about, and she said,how long would that take?
And I optimistically said, oh,probably just a couple of months
(13:09):
for me to finish that.
Um.
Six months later, I had thenovel complete and I took it
back to the agent who'd shown aninterest and I was very, um,
lucky that they were stillinterested and wanted to sign up
the work.
And they helped me with the dealwith the producer for the TV
show, and also helped me find apublisher.
Natasha Rai (13:29):
So it sounds like your novel got interest from a
TV connection before thepublisher.
You published Ultimo Press?
Yes.
You eventually went on topublish the novel.
Zahid Gamieldien (13:42):
Mm-hmm.
Natasha Rai (13:43):
That's, uh, pretty unusual.
Zahid Gamieldien (13:45):
Yeah, that is, that is pretty unusual.
Um, so I wasn't even sure that Iwanted the agent to take it on
at that time.
I wanted the producer to beinterested in that time because
I felt that it would just puttime pressure on me.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Um, but in the end, I think thatwas helpful because I'm not.
Uh, convinced that I wouldnecessarily have finished the
(14:08):
novel if I hadn't had the timepressure on me.
Natasha Rai (14:10):
Ah, we're gonna come back to time a bit later.
Um, but seeing as we, uh, havegotten onto the subject of
publication journey, so, um, yousent me a message yesterday
about what prompted you orinspired your first, I dunno,
foray into writing.
Zahid Gamieldien (14:30):
I did, yeah.
I was, um, thinking about thepublication journey and I was
thinking back to my firstattempt to write a novel, which
happened when I was eight yearsold and I had read, um, Judy
Bloom's Super Fudge and Tales ofa Fourth Grade Nothing.
And I thought, excellent.
You know, I, I'd love excellentto be able to do that.
And so I started writing a noveland really all I remember from
(14:52):
that novel is that it had a lotof poo and vomit jokes that was,
well, of
Natasha Rai (14:57):
course.
Yeah.
I mean that's, that sounds likea cornerstone of any great novel
Zahid Gamieldien (15:02):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
So, so that was my first foray,and I, I did make two other
attempts to write a novel beforethis one, but this was my first
actually
Natasha Rai (15:11):
what, since you were eight?
Zahid Gamieldien (15:12):
Since I was eight.
I made two other attempts beforewriting all the missing
children.
Um, although none of them wereactually finished, I, I
abandoned all of them.
Natasha Rai (15:22):
Okay, so, um, we don't have to go year by year of
your life, don't worry.
But you are eight, you have a goat writing this novel.
Um, and then what happens, likeyou go to school, high school
mm-hmm.
Maybe university.
I know that you've trained orstudied in something other than
writing.
Zahid Gamieldien (15:41):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (15:41):
So at what point did you decide to have a, I
guess want of a better word.
Proper go.
Zahid Gamieldien (15:48):
A proper go.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I had always planned to findmy way back to writing.
Mm-hmm.
But, you know, I think.
It was important to me to gainindependence, I guess, and it's
not, I, I don't come from wealthand so I wanted to, uh, you
know, get a degree, get a job,move out of home, all of those
(16:11):
sorts of things.
And, and so what I had alwaysplanned to do was work for a
little while.
And when I had, um, establishedmyself, I guess, or given myself
a bit of leeway financially, uh,I would return to writing.
And so.
Uh, my wife, uh, who I met inlaw school, we'd, we'd both kind
of worked as lawyers and shecame to me and said, this, this
(16:33):
law thing is really not for me.
I think I wanna be a doctor.
And so I said, okay, that seems,that seems fair.
Um, and so she went andretrained as a, as a.
Doctor, and she's now a gp andyou know, she's, she's amazing.
Um, and at some point she said,I'd like to do a stint in the
country, uh, to, to gain, um,experience there.
(16:57):
And so for me that was kind ofthe, the turning point because
I.
The university was putting usup, um, in accommodation and
paying her a stipend, and wedidn't have huge expenses.
And so I thought, well, I'llquit my job and I'll take a year
and I'll see where this writingthing actually goes.
Um, and so that's what I did andI, I was, um, lucky enough to
(17:22):
have a short story publishedshortly after I'd, I'd done
that.
And, um, I haven't said this tome.
Very many people, but actuallycried when that short story was
published because just, oh, it'sa huge moment,
Natasha Rai (17:35):
isn't it?
It was, it was such a, just arecognition.
Zahid Gamieldien (17:37):
Absolutely.
And, and, you know, I was sortof like, well, maybe I can do
this.
And, and I sort of took it fromthere.
Natasha Rai (17:44):
Well, as a big fan of your work, I'm glad you did.
Zahid Gamieldien (17:48):
Oh, thank you very much.
Natasha Rai (17:49):
Um, so.
All of that con all, not all ofthat, all those conversations
happened with the agent andyour, the producer after that
year or during while you werestill working on it?
Zahid Gamieldien (18:02):
Oh, no, no, no.
After which year, sorry.
Natasha Rai (18:05):
So that year that you're talking about where you
lived in the country, did youstart writing?
Zahid Gamieldien (18:09):
Um, no, no.
Natasha Rai (18:10):
Oh, sorry.
You were writing something else.
Zahid Gamieldien (18:11):
So I, I wrote short stories for quite a long
period.
Natasha Rai (18:15):
Ah, right.
Got
Zahid Gamieldien (18:16):
After that.
Um, and.
How many years?
Probably, probably four or fiveyears after that that I started
working on missing children.
So the one year that I was meantto take out turned into several
years.
But, um, I was, uh, fortunate toget a job teaching.
I.
Creative writing.
(18:36):
Uh, so I could do that whileworking on my own project.
Natasha Rai (18:40):
Ah, got it.
Okay.
And then in terms of teaching,you teach adults, is that right?
Like
Zahid Gamieldien (18:45):
I do, yeah.
Natasha Rai (18:46):
Creative writing, not children.
Zahid Gamieldien (18:47):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (18:48):
Um, and it sounds like you do take what you know
into your own work, like interms of structure and the
questions that you mentionedthat you ask yourself when
you're starting mm-hmm.
A manuscript, um.
Does it always impact yourapproach, what you like, what
you teach to others, or do youkind of just go, oh, well I say
(19:09):
this to my students, but I'll godo something else?
Zahid Gamieldien (19:12):
There's, there's probably a two part kind
of answer to that questionbecause I think I, I do think.
Understanding story structure islike incredibly useful for any
writer.
Mm-hmm.
And I would encourage allwriters to, to gain an
understanding of it.
And to be honest, storystructure is something that I
only fully, I don't even know ifI fully understand it now, but I
(19:35):
only understood, uh, well afterI started teaching it.
So when I was a student, Ididn't quite get it.
But when I started teaching it,I think I, I.
Gained a far better grasp of it,and I think whether or not you
want to follow story structure,challenge it, um, you know, uh.
(19:55):
In some ways, you're alwaysinteracting with it and knowing
the ways in which you'reinteracting with it can be
really helpful if you're puttingtogether a, a novel and a lot of
the manuscripts that I see andeven some works in, in that I
see that are in print, I tend tothink, well, this might have
been better if the, if thewriter had a deeper
understanding of structure andhow they work.
(20:17):
Um.
Interact with it.
So I definitely take that partinto my writing, but I don't
necessarily follow traditionalstory structure.
And I think that's evident withthe book that I've written.
Um, and I think the second partof that is I.
That when I started teaching, I,I think I clung to the
(20:38):
certainties of style guides andthings like that when it came to
craft, so, mm-hmm.
You know, if I saw an adverb,I'd be like, strike this adverb,
get it away from me.
Um, or, you know, if, ifsomebody used as, as a
conjunction, I'd be like, no, Idon't.
I don't think so my friend.
Mm-hmm.
But the longer you go on, themore you teach, the more you
(20:59):
read, the more you understandthat there are.
Almost an infinite number ofways in which to write well.
Um, and you become more relaxedabout those sort of craft things
as you go along.
So.
You start focusing less on thetechnical aspects of craft and
(21:19):
what you're teaching people andmore on how the pros and the
story, how those elements landwith, um, an intelligent,
literate, engaged reader.
Um, so maybe that is anothertip.
Don't, don't sweat the technicalrules that you see in a style
book, but focus on the effectthat your craft has on readers.
Natasha Rai (21:42):
There is a balance though, because I mean, I think
some emergent writers, dependingon who they're talking to or
where they're getting their, uh,lessons, I guess from.
Get told that they can't breakthe rules, right?
Yeah.
That you have to follow therules and then once you are
established, whatever thatmeans, mm-hmm.
You can break them.
But also at the same time, whenyou look at what's winning
(22:03):
prizes, um, even especiallyunpublished manuscript, more and
more manuscripts that take risksare being awarded those prizes.
I'm not asking you your take onthat.
I guess I'm asking if somebodydoes wanna break the rules in
some way, what would be youradvice to them about how they
could do that?
Zahid Gamieldien (22:22):
I, I mean, I think the only real rule is, you
know, if it works, it works.
And I think that's a, that's agood rule of thumb.
So I think if you focus on howit lands with your readers and
what sort of feedback you'regetting from your trusted
readers, like that's really whatshould be guiding you.
Um, and there is a tensionbetween.
(22:43):
The market and artistic merit,you know?
Mm-hmm.
It is the publishing industryafter all.
So if you're taking risks, itmight be that a publisher is
less likely to allow you to getthat in print.
Taking risks.
Um, I.
When you're new and more likelyto allow it when you've, you
know, written your third, fourthbook.
(23:04):
So mm-hmm.
It, it's a function of market asmuch as it is about the artistic
merit of what you're writing.
Natasha Rai (23:11):
Yeah, totally.
Bianca Breen (23:16):
Hi, I'm Bianca Breen and my debut novel is a YA
Fantasy called Made of Steam andStardust.
It's published on 12th of May byStag Beetle books in the US.
When a Comet hurdles toward herplanet 16-year-old inventor,
Gerdie is determined to stop itand use her success to improve
the conditions of the factoriesshe works in.
(23:37):
She'll build a machine that willsave the world, but as she hunts
for the paths to build hercreation, she encounters fell.
A mysterious boy with anunsettling connection to the
Comet, he's being hunted by theruthless Conqueror Seki, and
soon Gerdie is too.
On the run, the duo uncovers achilling secret blueprints for a
(23:57):
deadly army of automatons.
The army is nearly complete, buta final piece is still missing.
If Gerdie doesn't find it beforeConqueror Seki does, the comet
will be the least of herworries.
I.
I hope readers love theadventure, the quirkiness, and
the heart of the novel.
I hope it reminds them thatalthough the beautiful nature on
this earth is strong, it stillneeds our help, and I hope it
(24:19):
prompts them to look up at thestars every now and then.
Natasha Rai (24:27):
Other common mistakes or errors or.
I don't wanna use the wordtropes, but maybe patterns that
you see in emerging writers orthe manuscripts that you get to
look at.
Zahid Gamieldien (24:40):
Generally.
The thing that you'll notice iswhen a story is driven by events
rather than character.
Because, uh, people tend not tounderstand that.
Uh, readers are, are mostlyinterested in understanding your
character and going on a journeywith them.
And if you are imposing storyevents on that character that
(25:03):
are unnatural and you're forcingthem to make choices that they
wouldn't believably make for thesake of drama, readers are going
to cotton onto that reallyquickly and they're gonna react
against it.
I think that's, uh, one of themajor mistakes that emerging
writers make that you see in alot of manuscripts.
Um, and maybe that comes out ofa sense of.
(25:24):
Wanting to rush, you know?
Mm-hmm.
Writers not being patient withthemselves and their work,
because especially when you are,when you are young and you are
trying to get into print, youthink you have to do it
tomorrow.
Whereas the truth is you, youknow, when you start out,
there's going to be a gap, asIra Glass says, between what you
(25:46):
are writing and the sort ofliterature that you might enjoy
reading.
And the only way to close thatgap is to spend time on it,
practice your craft, to keep, tokeep writing.
Um, and it's sometimes I thinkit's gonna be a gap that you're
never really gonna feel like isever closed.
'cause um, I've got a book inprint and, and you know, I, I
(26:10):
certainly don't think I'm at thelevel of the writers that I was
trying to emulate and I when Istarted, and all you can do is
just.
Keep going.
Put the time in and hope thatyou close that gap.
Natasha Rai (26:22):
Totally.
Excellent advice.
So, I mean, I, I know that whenwe first met, I was intimidated
by the idea that you are awriting teacher, because I was
like, oh my God, this guy knowseverything about writing.
So how did, when you've got amanuscript ready or a draft that
you are okay with.
(26:45):
Do you have trusted readers andand or mentors that you also
need that feedback from?
Or are you kind of thinking,well, I know what I'm doing, I
know my way around a story,characters, et cetera, so I
don't need that.
Zahid Gamieldien (26:59):
Uh, no, I don't think you ever feel like
you know what you're doing.
That's, that's one thing that Ithink, you know, there, there
are, there's that famous quotewhere it's like, you know,
writing is a craft where inwhich we're all apprentices and
which in which none of us becomea master.
And I, and I think that's true.
Um, I don't think.
Anyone can write the perfectnovel or know everything.
(27:21):
You are constantly learning.
You're constantly improving.
Um, so yes, I have a lot ofself-doubt about my work, and
I'm constantly talking to mywife, Kirsty, and I, I go to her
and I say, you know, I think Imight be a bad writer.
And she'll say, no, no, you'renot.
I've, you know, I've read yourwork.
You've got all of these thingspublished behind you, and I go.
(27:43):
Yeah, but is that evidencethough?
I don't really know.
And so, you know, and, but thenthere are days where I think,
oh, you know, I've writtensomething that's really
worthwhile and great.
And, you know, I, I think that'scompletely normal to, to feel as
a writer.
Um, and absolutely havingtrusted readers.
Helps you because every time Isend something to my trusted
(28:05):
readers, I worry that they'regonna be like, this is complete
rubbish.
So I, I don't know that that'sever gonna go away for me as a
writer.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
And I don't know about otherpeople's experiences, but I, I
feel it's really important.
And having their feedback givesme a degree of confidence about
the work.
'cause I think, well, you know,someone thinks it's worthwhile
(28:26):
and.
The trusted readers that I have,thankfully are intelligent,
literate, kind, and criticalpeople.
So, um, for example, I have astory that's coming out in
Overland that I wrote a littlewhile ago, and it's been sitting
there and one of my trustedreaders.
Just intermittently would justsend me a text message going
(28:48):
like, what are you doing withthat story?
It's really great.
And I was, I kept going, oh, I'mnot really sure that it is that
great.
And he was like, well, submitit.
See what happens.
And so I submitted it and Itexted him saying, oh, that
story got accepted.
It's gonna be published.
And he just replied, of courseit is.
You idiot.
And I think you need people inyour life Yeah.
(29:08):
Who are going to be both.
You know, e encouraging andcritical.
Natasha Rai (29:13):
Yeah.
Your own cheering squad.
Your own private cheerleaders.
Zahid Gamieldien (29:16):
Well, not necessarily cheerleaders'cause
you want them to tell it like itis you
Natasha Rai (29:20):
No, but they're, they're giving critical
feedback, but they're alsosaying it's worth something.
It's, that's
Zahid Gamieldien (29:25):
right.
Natasha Rai (29:25):
They're right.
Offer good enough standard andequality.
And if it's not there, they'recheering you on to say keep
working on it.
Right.
Zahid Gamieldien (29:32):
Yeah, yeah.
And telling you the ways inwhich you can improve it.
I think that's important.
Yes,
Natasha Rai (29:36):
exactly.
And it's important as well, Ithink to have.
People around you who are notjust family or spouses because
they are supposed to say theylove it and they're supposed to
say that you're good.
Right?
Zahid Gamieldien (29:48):
That's right.
Right.
Yeah, exactly.
I, I've actually told this, thisstory before, but I, I, when
Kirsty reads my work, I do thisterrible thing, which is that I
watch her as she's reading it.
Natasha Rai (29:58):
Oh my God.
Oh my God, that poor woman.
Zahid Gamieldien (30:01):
And she, she absolutely hates it because of
course she hates it.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So, so now she, she kind ofwithdraws to somewhere else to
read it and then comes back and,and gives me the feedback on it.
Natasha Rai (30:11):
Oh my God.
Yeah.
You need to, yeah.
I'm glad you, well, I'm gladshe's figured I had to get away
from you because that would domy head in.
Yeah.
Uh, so you said earlier, Zahid,that about your novel about.
The crime element and leaving itmaybe unresolved or up to the
reader.
That's right.
Yeah.
And the impact of it on theother characters.
(30:32):
So I, I mean, this is a doublebarrel question, so you can
choose to answer all of it ormm-hmm.
One or both elements.
Um, how did, how was it for youthat, you know, somebody like
Ultima Press, you know, areputable, really good quality
publisher took a.
Risk, I suppose, on somethingthat is unusual for a debut
writer and also, um, what wasthat discussion like in terms of
(30:57):
marketing?
Because this kind of defies yourbook, defies, uh, easy kind of.
Definition in terms of thank,thank you.
Categorization is a better word.
Zahid Gamieldien (31:10):
Yeah.
Um, yeah, I mean, I'm assumingmost people wouldn't have read
it.
It's sort of, it is a strangebook in that it doesn't fit
neatly into any genre.
Um, it's been classed as complexcrime, horror, aura, mystery,
uh.
Gothic fiction, literaryfiction, those, I think those
(31:33):
are the five ways it's been kindof described.
And um, that does make itdifficult from a marketing point
of view.
Uh, I think of it as literaryfiction, but I might just think
of it in that way because thatsuggests that I can do whatever
I want in terms of genre mm-hmm.
Without having to worry aboutit.
(31:53):
Um, but if you think about itas.
Crime fiction, then it is kindof difficult because it doesn't
do the things that crime fictionreaders might expect from.
Yes.
That sort of novel
Natasha Rai (32:04):
and interestingly, and I'm trying to word this so
carefully without givinganything away, there is a crime
element, but it's not theelement that you are set up to
think it will be.
That was so clumsy.
Um, so what, I mean, I'm talkingabout Omar and that's all I'm
gonna say, that there is acrime.
His is a more, I guess,traditional crime story, but you
(32:27):
find out very quickly that he isnot investigating the thing you
think he's investigating.
Yeah.
Zahid Gamieldien (32:31):
Yeah.
So, you know, structurally thatwas the gambit for that section.
And, and it's the way in which,um, it plays with crime fiction
structure in the sense that youthink the question that's being
set up is one thing, but thequestion that is answered by the
end of that is a different one.
Um, and.
I was hoping that people werewilling to go along with that
(32:54):
for the, for the crime fictionsection.
But overall, there's not adetective character that goes
through and attempts to solve,um, the core question of what
happened to the, to the twochildren that go missing at the
end of part one.
And, um, there's no scene inwhich all of the facts are laid
out for the reader.
And you are told the answer now.
(33:16):
Crime fiction readers tend toexpect that.
Exactly.
Yes.
If you are a crime fictionreader, you are going to be
engaging with a different kindof experience.
Um, and when Ultimo Press cameon board, they spoke to me about
it as a crossover.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
So it's a literary novel thatcrosses over into other genre
(33:37):
categories.
And one of the genre carcategories into which it crosses
is crime fiction.
So it was marketed to a sectionof the crime fiction, um,
readership or, or mm-hmm.
Audience.
Mm-hmm.
And.
The compromise that we kind ofcame to was that it could sit
there, but the cover would be avery non-traditional crime
(33:59):
fiction cover.
So the cover, which is Yes.
Yeah.
It, it doesn't, it doesn't looklike other crime fiction novels
you would encounter.
Um, and it has some.
Horror elements, some mysteryelements, maybe some literary
fiction suggestion as part ofthe cover.
Um, and that's the intention ofthat is to put people on notice
that if you are buying thisbook, you're not getting the,
(34:22):
the normal crime fictionexperience, even if it has some
crime fiction elements.
Natasha Rai (34:26):
Hmm.
Because that's,'cause I, I findthis really interesting'cause
I've had quite a few writers oremerging writers say to me that
they're not writing somethingthat is easily definable.
Zahid Gamieldien (34:35):
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (34:36):
Um, so I guess your experience speaks to write it
anyway because you will findmaybe a home for it at some
point, but you will find apublisher who's willing to take
that risk.
I mean, who,'cause it is a risk,
Zahid Gamieldien (34:49):
right?
It is a risk.
It is a risk.
And as I was saying, it's, youknow, there are market factors.
Involved in, in them, they makea calculation over how many
units they think they can shiftwith your novel, and that
probably determines whether ornot they're willing to take the
risk on it.
So, you know, if you want a moresure fire path to publication,
(35:09):
then uh, eliminating publicationrisks is one way of doing it.
But I would probably encouragepeople to write the thing that
they want to write and just do.
As good a job as they possiblycan.
Um, and if it's, if it's goodenough, hopefully, um, the
market will find a place for it.
Natasha Rai (35:29):
Yeah.
Uh, as the market tends to dofor things that are brilliant
and different.
Zahid Gamieldien (35:36):
Yeah.
But brilliant and different is,is, uh, a hard bar to meet
sometimes.
Um,
Natasha Rai (35:42):
good enough and different.
Zahid Gamieldien (35:43):
Good enough and different.
Good enough and different.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Natasha Rai (35:46):
Um, so you mentioned earlier about timing.
Mm-hmm.
So I'm getting a sense,actually, I've heard you say it,
so it's not just a sense, um,that you sometimes struggle with
your time management.
So in terms of,
Zahid Gamieldien (35:58):
are you outing me in this podcast for
struggling with time management?
Natasha Rai (36:00):
You literally said it.
You actually said it on not apodcast.
So I'm not outing you.
Okay.
It's not something that's notalready available.
Zahid Gamieldien (36:05):
It's already in the public domain.
Natasha Rai (36:06):
It's already in the public domain.
Um, so I guess my question isabout what sustains you and
supports you to keep writing andhow you do approach time
management, because I know youhave family commitments, um, as
well as, you know, youngchildren and all the, you know,
life stuff that a lot of peoplehave.
So how do you find.
Time to do your writingpractice?
Zahid Gamieldien (36:28):
Um, oh, I, I, I mean, I was struggling, uh,
before when I was working, uh,teaching, writing and, uh,
writing as well.
I have taken some time off fromteaching, um, because I was, I
got a two book deal and I have adeadline, a looming deadline,
uh, to get in my secondmanuscript.
(36:50):
And so I felt like I needed to,to take that time.
Um.
So primarily that's really whereI've, uh, stolen time from is,
is from the other job that Iused to work.
And, um, I was lucky enough toget a create New South Wales
grant, which kind ofsupplemented my income and gave
(37:10):
me the freedom to write.
And that's another thing that Iwould really encourage people to
do is apply for grants.
Uh, I know that.
It's a bit of a crapshoot andyou never know what the outcome
is gonna be, but it could begood.
And if the, if you know, theworst thing that can happen is
that you're in the exact sameposition that you are already
in.
Natasha Rai (37:28):
Exactly.
Yeah.
Zahid Gamieldien (37:30):
So, so I would say really, you know, apply for
whatever grants, uh, you'reeligible for.
So, you know that, I thinkthat's mainly where I've stolen
time from.
Um, it is, it is hard if youhave family commitments and
children.
Mm-hmm.
Sometimes,
Natasha Rai (37:46):
of course.
Yeah.
Zahid Gamieldien (37:47):
Um.
But you know, the, the rewardsare, are worth it, I think, for
me anyway.
Natasha Rai (37:53):
Yeah.
And it's about finding whatworks for the individual, right?
So if you know you have time inthe morning or in the afternoon
or whatever it is, how manytimes a week you just make that
work?
I.
Zahid Gamieldien (38:03):
Yeah, that's absolutely right.
You, you need to, whatever timeyou, you have, you need to be
able to make it work.
And I used to write on my phone,on the bus, so I would be, you
know, open up an email that Iwould send to myself and just
hammer away and hope that Icould figure something out that
way.
So, you know, whatever time youcan dedicate to it, like you,
you need to steal that from,from your life and do it.
Natasha Rai (38:26):
Yeah.
Um, so we've got a little bitmore time for a couple more
questions.
Um.
What have you learned along theway?
What's the most important, orig,maybe not important, but
significant lesson that you'velearned along the way?
In terms of anything publishing,writing, craft.
Time management.
Zahid Gamieldien (38:48):
Um, I mean, I can talk about the, the way that
I try and approach writing.
'cause I, when I carve out spacefor writing, I find that I do my
best work if I'm in a deepthinking zone.
And it can be really hard.
To get into that zone as awriter, especially if, you know,
there's a finite amount of timethat you'll be writing.
(39:08):
So, you know, before I startwriting, I, you know, I, I work,
do all my work on Scrivener.
I open Scrivener up, I'll dosome breathing to mm-hmm.
To get me in the, into the zone.
And I put on binaural beats andI put my headphones on.
So I have this kind of.
Going and then I know thatthat's a signal to me that this
(39:29):
time is the time that I'm gonnaspend writing.
Um, and so I think creating somesort of.
Not necessarily ritual, but, butsomething you do that suggests
like, this is my time to writeand that's what I'm gonna be
doing for this period, can bereally helpful.
Um, in terms of what else, whatelse have I learned?
(39:49):
Well, I, I think, um, and I saidthis on a panel that I was on,
uh, with you earlier, but, uh,you know, the Australian writing
and publishing industry isreally small, so, you know,
that's good and bad.
It's bad in the sense that the,the market can be risk averse
and you know, it, it might beharder to get something, uh, in
(40:13):
print that is literary fictionand really different.
Um, but it's good in the sensethat you get to meet all of
these different riders when,when you go around and.
Generally speaking, they're,they're lovely people.
They're supportive and they're,you know, not arrogant and they
want to talk about writing.
They're interested in what youare doing, you are interested in
(40:35):
what they're doing.
So it's a really nice,supportive community, generally
speaking.
And that's one thing that I'velearned.
Natasha Rai (40:43):
Totally, definitely wholeheartedly agree.
Um, and in terms of thatpractice that you mentioned, you
know, getting like almost aritual to start is for you, does
that only work when you are athome, like in your private
space, or can you do that, Idon't know, in a library or a
cafe, or does it have to be kindof like a quiet, empty, private
space?
Zahid Gamieldien (41:04):
Well, I tend to like writing in, in a quiet,
empty space.
Um, but uh, it's not a.
I, I'm describing that practicemore as an example, rather than
saying, this is the thing thatyou should do.
Natasha Rai (41:18):
Yeah,
Zahid Gamieldien (41:18):
and I think that some writers love going to
a cafe and settling down towrite.
Some writers get their bestideas when they're walking.
Some writers really like wastingwater and having really long
showers'cause that's the onlyway they can solve their story
problems.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, all ofthose things.
Can work.
(41:38):
And as a writer you just need tofind the practice that helps you
be your most creative.
Natasha Rai (41:43):
Yeah, totally.
And I know that you've alreadysnuck in lots and lots of
excellent tips in this episode,but I'm wondering if there's
anything that you brought inthat you haven't said or any
kind of final tip for,especially for emerging writers
who maybe are looking for atraditional publishing, you
know, deal.
Zahid Gamieldien (42:01):
Right.
Um, so when I've been asked thisquestion before, I've said stuff
like.
Finish what you start.
And maybe that's advice that Iwould've wanted to give my
younger self as well.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, and I've also said, youknow, seek, seek balance in your
writing.
You know, be, uh, haveself-belief, be stubborn, but
also at the right times, be openand, and have humility.
(42:23):
So, um, maybe one thing Ihaven't really spoken a lot
about is, um, perseverance.
And you do hear a lot of peopletalking about the need.
For, for perseverance when youare writing.
But I always think, well, how doyou actually do that?
Mm.
Um, and I think it's abouthaving the right mindset when it
(42:45):
comes to your writing.
So what you want to feel aboutyour writing is that you are
happy with how far you've come,but you know that you can still
do better.
Um, and I think if you cultivatethat mindset.
Then when you face a setback,you can think, oh yeah.
(43:05):
Like that's, that's fine.
I'm proud of that work.
It didn't quite make it, but I'ma better writer now than I was
then, and this next work isgonna be better.
And I.
When you have a success, you canthink, oh, you know, I'm really
happy that that made it intoprint and I'm now a better
writer, so I'm gonna go writesomething else.
You know?
And I was thinking about thisthis morning and I was like,
(43:26):
well, what do I call this?
Do I have a name for it?
Do I call it, you know, happydissatisfaction or like
something like that.
And then I thought, you're notbeing particularly innovative
here by saying this.
You just, um.
Stealing from Samuel Beckett.
You know, there's the, uh, ever,ever failed, ever tried, ever
failed, fail again, failedbetter.
(43:47):
And that's really how you shouldgo into it.
So the tip is steal from SamuelBeckett and you No, no.
The tip, the tip is be, be happywith how far you've come as a
writer.
Um, but know that you can stilldo better because that's, that's
the way new and great art ismade and will always be made.
Natasha Rai (44:10):
And you know, just to expand on that, a way to be
happy with what you've done isto look at older drafts or to
look at what you were writingand how much has improved.
'cause it, because it can behard to go, oh, I'm really happy
with the fact that I wasrejected, or, you know, this is
fine, this is great.
Next time.
It does help to look at oldstuff.
I do that from time to time.
(44:30):
Yeah.
Thank you.
Oh, this is a crap.
Yeah,
Zahid Gamieldien (44:32):
absolutely.
That's the bit I forgot to sayis I think if you, um.
In practical terms, if you goback and look at something that
you wrote five, 10 years ago orsomething like that, you will be
able to see how much better youare now and you'll automatically
start editing that thing in yourmind.
So, yeah.
Natasha Rai (44:52):
Yeah.
Zahid Gamieldien (44:53):
You know, I, I think that's, that's just a way
of reminding yourself that youare on a journey.
You're always on a, on a journeyof improvement when you are
writing.
Um, and even though it's notlinear, it is.
Kind of always moving in onedirection, and that is towards
becoming a better writer.
Natasha Rai (45:14):
So profound.
I feel like we need to end thisepisode there.
I was gonna make a terrible jokeabout, especially if you go back
and look at your teenage poetry,you'll feel so much better.
But now I've ruined yourprofundity of saying that.
No, you have.
Zahid Gamieldien (45:28):
I will say I, I.
Looked at my teenage poetry alittle while ago and I was like,
oh my God, I'm so glad nobodyever saw it in this.
Um, and I threw out those, thoseold notebooks, even though
history.
Oh damn.
Well all this that there
Natasha Rai (45:42):
are like, we'll never see it.
Zahid Gamieldien (45:43):
Yeah.
Never see the light of day.
Natasha Rai (45:45):
Okay.
Well thank you so much forsharing all of that with me.
Um, we have come to the end ofour time to together today.
Um, thanks for those top tipsand um, best of luck with your
current manuscript.
Zahid Gamieldien (45:57):
Well, thank you and thanks so much for
having me on.
Natasha Rai (45:59):
My pleasure.
Tina Strachan (46:04):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new apps drop and to keep
up to date with what the pod isdoing.
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