July 9, 2025 • 46 mins
In this episode of the Book Deal podcast, hosts Tina Strachan and Madeleine Cleary share a candid and engaging discussion about their current writing projects and experiences. Tina talks about her recent book release, 'Neeka and the Storm,' and the whirlwind of emotions she felt around its launch. Meanwhile, Madeleine opens up about her progress on her second book, the challenges of writing a crime narrative, and her breakthrough in plotting. The episode also delves into the broader writing community, touching on the feelings of disappointment many authors face around royalty statements, rejections, and the competitive nature of the industry. Special references are made to encouraging posts by author Kylie Orr and the importance of community and perseverance. The hosts conclude with book recommendations and a note on the importance of enjoying the writing process.
00:00 Welcome to the Book Deal Podcast
00:43 Catching Up on a Saturday Night
02:11 Book Release Excitement
06:58 Writing Challenges and Progress
18:11 Exploring Different Writing Perspectives
20:41 Reader Preferences and Writing Styles
21:41 End of Financial Year Reflections
22:50 Understanding Author Royalties
23:52 Facing Disappointments in Publishing
27:24 The Importance of Community and Persistence
31:22 Balancing Writing with Realistic Expectations
42:54 Current Reads and Recommendations
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You can find out more about Tina and Madeleine and follow their journeys here:
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Tina Strachan children's book author
Madeleine Cleary (@madeleineclearywrites) • Instagram photos and videos
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Tina Strachan (00:09):
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will
discover the inspiring stories,the authors behind your favorite
books.
No matter what stage of writingyou are at, we've got you
covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one
deal at a time.
Madeleine Cleary (00:29):
The book Deal podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters, which it's recorded
on and pays respect to theirelders past, present, and
emerging.
Tina (00:43):
Good evening, Madeleine.
How are you going?
I love that we're catching up ona Saturday night again, but
we've swapped.
Mm-hmm.
You have the glass of red inhand this time, and I have a cup
of tea.
Not kocha, but a cup of tea.
See, I'm not that boring, but Iam still in my pajamas though,
which is pretty good.
Madeleine (01:02):
I mean, you look fantastic.
I was just saying when you cameon, so you are actually, do you
wanna describe your currentsituation?
Sure, yes.
I'm sitting in the passengercar, passenger car, passenger
seat.
I've only had one glass of wine,I promise, in the passenger seat
of our car because we're campingin away, we're away in our
caravan at the moment, schoolholidays.
(01:22):
And um, yeah, so I've got agreat setup with the phone, um,
perch on top of the dashboardand a camping light.
It's a bit cool outside.
So I've got my son's audio onmy.
My legs and my boots on.
I'm overlooking the beautifullake, actually.
So it's really nice.
It actually kind of looks likehorror.
Horror, like story vibes outsideof, oh God.
Tina (01:44):
You're always thinking storylines, aren't you?
You know?
It kind of does, doesn't it?
Madeleine (01:49):
Yeah.
I'm pretty scared for you.
Okay.
It's very dark.
I'll just look.
Hang on.
I'll just lock the door.
Please do.
But um, I was just saying like,Tina's like, oh yeah, I'm in my
pajamas.
Da da.
She has the most perfect glowabout her right now.
Like the camping light is doingreally nice things.
So I think
Tina (02:06):
I should just do
Madeleine (02:06):
this
Tina (02:07):
for all our, um, I reckon podcast maybe.
Madeleine (02:10):
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
You look at, and also I'm, I'massuming as well, you've got a
very nice glow because you'rebasking in book two release.
Glow as well.
Tina (02:20):
I know.
Congratulations.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yes.
Uh, Neeka in the storm.
So book two of the Wild Zooseries came out just this week,
just a few days ago, which is,um, yeah, really exciting.
Very exciting.
And I wanna,
Madeleine (02:34):
I wanna actually share with the listeners, um,
our, uh, WhatsApp chat, um, themorning that RA and the missing
storm.
Missing storm.
I just combined your book oneand.
Neeka and the storm came out, Ithink it was, I was pretty early
actually.
I was awake early for me.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
It was like six 30.
Mm-hmm.
And I was like, oh, Tina will beawake.
(02:55):
And I messaged you like HappyPub Day.
Like just something random.
And you replied, I forgot.
Okay.
Tina (03:05):
I know that sounds terrible, but in my defense it
was.
Um, I had already been up forlike two and a half, two hours.
Madeleine, of course you havebeen.
I'd got, I, I'd processed theemotions.
No, but at that point when youhad messaged me, I was on the
treadmill.
I was just getting some steps inbefore our drive away and, um.
(03:27):
Sorry, you're looking and
Madeleine (03:28):
peering outside the window.
Oh my god.
I know.
I, no, the lights
Tina (03:31):
on the car were flashing and I, I was wondering if I was
gonna set the alarm off.
Um, oh crap.
I just,
Madeleine (03:35):
my heart actually just stopped for you.
Then I'm like, are you about tobe murdered?
Tina (03:38):
I am literally in between two caravans and there's like,
it's the car next door.
It's fine.
I'm not gonna be murdered.
If we do, it's live on air, sowe'll have a recording of it.
We could find who did it, andthen you can write a book about
it.
Madeleine (03:54):
Oh my God.
This a great plot actually to anovel live on podcast.
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
No one's steal that.
I'm gonna copyright that.
Tina (04:05):
Okay.
No.
Okay.
Okay.
You forgot.
So, my defense, I was up, I was,I, you know, had processed the
thing and we had such a busyday.
Mm.
And of course I knew it.
Of course I knew it was thatday.
And, you know, I'd spoken abouta thousand times and the night
before.
Um, but I think because we weregetting up and were getting out
of the house,'cause, you know,it was very different this time.
You know, I, book one, I had Ithink two weeks off or a week
(04:27):
off of work before it came out.
So I had all this time to sortof.
In the glow of book release,whereas this time I worked,
worked up until the day before,um, kids were on school
holidays.
So it's, it was hectic and yeah,just a lot of life, was um, sort
of creeping in and yeah, I wason the treadmill ready to go.
(04:48):
And it was just funny'cause whenyou had, uh, when you did text
me, I think it was just.
I really felt like, oh, this isso different to book one, where
I, I certainly had the day, um,all to myself and to sort of
just really spend on it, but youknow what I think it is.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Because the, obviously theexcitement is still absolutely
there and just.
(05:09):
Um, it is not lost on me, likethe achievement of having
another book, of course out.
It's, I think with your firstbook, you go from zero,
literally to a hundredovernight.
Yeah.
So you go from zero, you're nota, you're not a published
author.
And then the next day you're apublished author and messages
are coming in and Instagram'scoming in and people are posting
and reposting and sharing.
(05:30):
It's the first time any, you seelike your book.
From someone else on Instagram,say so.
So maybe one of the, um, booksgrammars, uh, have done a review
or one of your friends has seenit in the shop and they've
posted it.
And I think it's that first timethat you ever see anything and
it's all just, it literally goesfrom zero to a hundred.
Madeleine (05:49):
It's almost like the, the, A switch has been turned on
in a dark room.
Yes.
And it's bright a hundredpercent.
And you are very visible.
All the time.
Yes.
Tina (05:58):
Yeah.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And it's a lot, and it's reallybusy.
And then you're getting used tojust all those things and, and
how to navigate that.
And so, and because it's onlybeen like six months since Yes.
You know, Neeka and the missingkey came out and now book two is
out.
It felt like, you know, pro, itdefinitely wanes from that a
hundred percent to like, youknow, maybe 50 at times to like
(06:19):
back up it's mood light.
It's a dim, dim mood light.
It's, it's dimmed and then itkind of flickers and then it
gets, and then it just startsgetting.
Um, brighter and brighter Ithink because you're already
booking in events for otherthings.
Not even just for a book launch,but you know, because you now
have published also a book outand another one coming out.
Then you know, people asking todo.
(06:39):
So you, you're very much stillin the, the wheels are still
turning on it, I think.
Mm-hmm.
So by the time this happened, itwas like, I was already sitting
at like 80% and so when book twocame out, it was back up at a
hundred percent.
Yeah.
But, but it just wasn't that bigleap.
Madeleine (06:54):
Yep.
That makes sense.
Which is nice.
Because that's probably prettyAnd first tube because
unsustainable.
Do you think as well, becauseyou are writing a series and
it's book two, that it, it'sthat con continuation as well?
Yes, yes.
Less like startling because it'snot like you're writing in a
different genre or somethingcompletely brand new that you
have to really, you know,'causeyou've got now people who are
(07:15):
interested at readership knowTina and Neeka and associate the
two of you together.
Tina (07:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, they'recoming, you know?
Mm-hmm.
If you, when you have anotherbook that you haven't yet maybe
signed or have a date for, um,it's, there's still lots of
unknowns.
I think so.
Or a lot of time in between ayear or two years.
Yeah.
I think it had, yeah, you'dstill have that big leap
Madeleine (07:39):
because it's actually, I just, I just
realized it's actually only likefive months.
Tina (07:43):
Yeah.
Madeleine (07:43):
Between missing key and storm.
Yeah, that's actually, that'sactually not that long.
Um, have you seen Neeka in thestorm yet?
In a bookshop?
Tina (07:53):
I have not.
Madeleine (07:54):
I have not.
I, I figured you wouldn't havebecause you've literally been
away camping since.
Tina (07:59):
Yeah.
And we're somewhere that doesn'thave a lot of.
We're not very close tobookstores, so, and also I've
got the kids with me and they'reso sick of being dragged to
bookstores.
They're like, we've done that,mom.
We've seen your book.
Yeah.
Done.
We don't need to see it again.
You're done.
Yeah.
Madeleine (08:14):
One and done.
That's it.
Yeah,
Tina (08:15):
yeah, yeah.
That's it.
Whatever.
Get over it.
Mom.
Stop talking about books all thetime.
Madeleine (08:21):
Have, have they read it yet?
No.
Nope.
So it is your first, so wait,when do you get, when do you get
back home?
Tina (08:30):
Um, oh.
In a couple days.
Okay.
So yeah, I will Is your
Madeleine (08:33):
first mission to go and see it and find it?
Tina (08:36):
Yeah, I think I, I think I'll, I'll go out and go for a
little wander and, and see if Ican see it.
Yeah, that'll be nice.
That'll be
Madeleine (08:43):
very exciting.
And your I event is on theweekend, is it next week?
And,
Tina (08:48):
um, no.
I have two, uh, two libraryauthor talks for kids, um, gold
Coast libraries.
And then I have a, uh, workshopquick.
Brown fox.
That's, so by the time that'sthis airs, it'll probably be,
um, they'll probably be over.
Mm-hmm.
But then I also do have, um, abook launch at Quick Brown Fox,
which is also the same, um, timeand date as their third birthday
(09:11):
celebration.
So, um, anybody in the Brisbanearea, make sure you get on, get
in touch with Quick Brown Fox,uh, about their third birthday
because that's coming up soon.
Madeleine (09:21):
Oh, that sounds lovely.
Yeah, they're a beautiful books.
Wine or wine or he kind ofparty.
Oh.
Tina (09:26):
Oh.
Um, I don't, I know there'sgonna be Cake.
Cake Party.
I know that.
Yeah.
Cake party.
That sounds amazing.
Yeah.
But what about you, Madeleine?
Are you also glowing as always?
What's happening?
Madeleine (09:37):
Oh, well, I mean, yeah, it feels like lots of.
Lots of things have beenhappening, but also not a lot.
But the really exciting thing,last week I went to Emma Pagan's
launch of her day novel whenSleeping Women Wake, um, which
was at Amplify Bookstore inMelbourne, which is an amazing
bookshop, which is dedicated topromoting diverse voices.
(09:58):
So it's this beautiful bookstoreand Emma has become a friend.
Um, she.
Helped me launch the Butterflywomen in Canberra.
And so, so she's from Canberra,so it was awesome to be able to
be there.
And so she was in conversationwith our friend of a podcast
Tina (10:13):
mm-hmm.
Madeleine (10:13):
Parker.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and they were bothbrilliant, so I could have, um,
sat and listened to them chatall night.
So it was so fun, and I've read.
Emma's book and it is wonderful.
So I do highly recommend it ifyou're a fan of historical
fiction or just a fan of justinteresting stories, it's set in
Hong Kong, in in World War ii.
It's, um, set in Hong Kongduring the Japanese occupation.
(10:34):
So it's a brilliant book.
So I'm really excited to see.
Um, I was really excited to seethat one come out into the
world, so that was really fun.
Um, and then the other thing Isuppose is a progress update
for.
Um, drafting of book two.
Yeah.
Tina (10:48):
So you're gonna get, are you gonna, uh, check in and give
us the stats?
Yes.
Where are you at?
Madeleine (10:52):
I couldn't remember where I was at last Fortnite, so
I went and Google, like, Ididn't Google it, but I searched
in our archive, um, because wecan search the, the terms and I
was at 25,000 wa at Fortnite go.
So.
Awesome.
I'm pleased to tell you Tina,that as of today I'm up 37,000,
so Oh wow.
Awesome.
Awesome spot to be in.
(11:13):
But it's getting harder.
Tina (11:16):
Is it?
Is it because, okay.
Do you feel like you've come tothe end of that natural act one
now, and now you're getting intothat middle, um, act two kind of
thing?
And that is the struggle, isn'tit?
That's the, the bit that yousort of wanna run through in a
way to get to your Act three,isn't it?
Because that gets super excitingagain, so it's that middle, it's
(11:36):
that.
We never quite worked it as itsoggy or saggy, middle, soggy
Madeleine (11:39):
or soggy, middle.
Both.
Same.
It's it.
Do you know, and I've been dyingto tell you this, and I thought
I'd save it for the podcastbecause I feel like you're gonna
be so pleased.
Oh,
Tina (11:49):
please tell me.
Madeleine (11:52):
So today, um, I was writing, I think because I'm,
it's a bit more, this book isprobably a little bit more
crime.
Focused, maybe there's a strongcrime narrative.
Um, and as I'm writing, so I'mup to, yeah, that sort of saggy
middle, soggy middle, and to todate, I had just been sort of
revealing slowly like who themurderer is.
(12:16):
As I go through, and then Idiscovered this huge gaping plot
hole, um, about 10,000 wordsabove.
Um, and so I was like, oh, no,I've gotta go fix that.
So I went and fixed that,deleted words, my work account
went down.
And then as I'm writing it, Ijust realized, I'm like, oh, I'm
writing a crime book and I haveno red herrings.
(12:37):
Like I'm just revealing themurderer slowly.
Mm, because I'm a pants and Idon't plot anything.
Mm.
And I'm trying to understandwhat, who the murderer is.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I'm just slowlyunveiling it to me and Yeah.
Yeah.
There's no one, there's no oneelse.
So I had a whole cast ofcharacters, so I'm like, oh,
(12:58):
I'll do some red herrings.
But I was like, oh, I'll inventnew characters.
I'm like, no, no, no.
I have these existing charactersI can.
Transform this, right?
So I'm, I'm sitting thereoutside of my deck and my brain
is exploding because I'm like,holy crap.
I, it's everything.
The plot, the story, thecharacters are all just in my
(13:18):
head.
Nothing is written down.
And I said, I was like, okay,what would Tina do?
And Tina would do, would do a.
She would plot it out and shewould do a mind map or
something.
So I got a big sheet of paper.
This is literally today.
I sat on the floor of my houseand I wrote out every
(13:40):
character's name, and then Idrew links between each of them
to work out.
And because when you're writingthese like, like from a crime
perspective, you have to alsothink about.
People know different parts ofthe story and parts of the
information, and so yeah, I'vegot this huge map now that I
drew and I was able to createall these connections between
(14:03):
people and that's all my redherrings.
Tina (14:05):
That's so good.
Madeleine (14:05):
And I sorted it out.
Tina (14:06):
Yeah.
Did you feel like it just flowedfor you once you started writing
it and even maybe opened up?
New ideas.
New ideas, or brought forwardnew ideas that you sort of
hadn't really, I mean, obviouslyit brought forward your, your
red herrings.
Madeleine (14:19):
So that's huge.
It created everything for me.
Like the whole, basically thenext it it, it's not like I've
plotted it out, it's just thatI've helped understand, um, who
yeah knows who and how, and.
Who's hiding this piece andwho's got a secret and who's
hiding something, and yeah.
Tina (14:37):
And, and that's really important.
Yes.
Obviously that story
Madeleine (14:41):
and Yeah.
Yeah.
Tina (14:41):
Do so did you know who the killer was before?
Always.
Madeleine (14:44):
I suspected I have, I had a person in mind.
Yeah.
And so I was like, Ooh, I thinkit's gonna be this person.
But, um, but I didn't know how.
The The main character wouldsuspect other people.
Tina (14:59):
Yeah.
Like
Madeleine (14:59):
why they would have any interest in this.
I just was like, oh, I think itshould be this person.
But I didn't know why, but now Iknow why, and that's really
helpful.
So I'm gonna start writing againtomorrow with all this in mind.
Tina (15:11):
Yeah.
Madeleine (15:12):
I probably will have to go back and layer things.
Yeah.
But I'm gonna just keep movingforward and I'll do that later.
Tina (15:17):
Yeah, and it
Madeleine (15:18):
could
Tina (15:18):
change.
It could still change, you know,because you won't know until you
write it, but at least it's kindof clear now and you're not sort
of wasting time by potentiallykeeping on writing and and
going, oh, I didn't create thatlink, or I missed that link.
Or I could have really includedthat there.
Yes, you've got that now.
And you know what my othertheory is on that is you were
using pen and paper.
I just have this, I certain thatlike if you get stuck and
(15:43):
honestly it doesn't even matterhow messy it is and maybe you
can't even read it again, butsometimes I just, I've written
pages and pages and pages innotebooks trying to get it to
work, like the storyline towork.
Like if you do have a plot holeor you, it's a timeline thing.
Yes.
I just, I dunno what it's about.
It, it's.
Pretty sure I can find somescience to back it up.
(16:04):
That it just simulates thatcreativity or that problem
solving or something of pen topaper.
So listeners out there, ifyou're stuck, get pen and paper
out and don't worry about howmessy it's, just write it down
because it's it.
Is a connection straight intoyour creative soul.
I'm sure of it.
I agree.
Madeleine (16:22):
The pen and paper thing helped and it getting off
my laptop'cause I couldn't spaceit the way I wanted, like make
it very express.
Mm-hmm.
But pen and paper allows you tobe really?
Yeah.
And you
Tina (16:31):
can like circle,
Madeleine (16:32):
you can underline Yes.
You can like
Tina (16:33):
do like go over it a thousand times and just like
cross it out.
Yes.
But
Madeleine (16:37):
when
Tina (16:37):
it's in like a Word document or something, it just
gets super messy.
Madeleine (16:40):
It does.
I felt like I did.
I did a few messy versionsbefore I did the final and then
I hand wrote out the final
Tina (16:46):
Yeah.
Madeleine (16:46):
As I was, it was just solving everything.
So I think,'cause I found thishuge pothole this morning, I
think that really spurred me tothink really carefully about
this story.
Yeah.
And I'm really glad I did that.
And it's not, and I can keep mypants vibes because it just is
creating.
And understanding and awarenessat a holistic level.
(17:09):
But how it gets to the end, Istill don't know.
Tina (17:12):
Yeah, and that's good.
That's okay.
And I think that's it.
It's just a tool to use, likeflooding and all those sort of,
you know, you're just trying towork out the characters and the
connections and stuff, and it'sall just a tool to get you to
the end.
And it's smart because.
What else are you?
You're not just gonna writethousands and thousands of words
that aren't gonna get you whereyou wanna go.
That's yes, and back in
Madeleine (17:31):
the day, that's what I would've done.
Just written thousands anddeleted.
Then I think this might make methen, for this book, a er.
Tina (17:40):
Yeah.
Do you think I like that?
Yeah, I guess so.
Madeleine (17:43):
Congratulations,
Tina (17:44):
RO.
Madeleine (17:44):
Thank you.
I've brought
Tina (17:45):
you over to the dark side.
Madeleine (17:47):
I'm growing up as a writer.
It's very exciting.
But I do think that it'simportant as a, when you're
writing crime, to just have thisin a it.
It's important otherwise, Imean, you can still pan set, but
then I think you have to goback.
Tina (18:01):
At some point you still have to plot it to even just
find your timeline.
'cause remember we don't wannadrive in the car for 26 hours
without a break.
Exactly.
You know, we, we need to keepgoing.
We need to check it.
Hey, but you know what,something that you might be
really proud of me for mm-hmm.
Is I have always ridden in firstperson or Yes.
My first person writer.
I mean, and when you write kidthat they like the kids enjoy
(18:24):
first person, it's putthemselves into
Madeleine (18:26):
the
Tina (18:26):
book.
Yeah.
They can get really close to thecharacter I have just.
I've been plotting out, notplotting out, thinking about
maybe I call it plotting.
I don't know.
I've been writing, you know, mybrain dump that I do, or I just
like, yeah, vomit, drop, likethis and that.
Yes.
Vomiting.
Vomiting.
Um, I have.
(18:46):
I can't, how do I make thiswork?
Like how do I get, tell thestory that I wanna tell, but
also include, you know, theother characters from their
side.
Madeleine (18:55):
Mm.
I'm like third person,
Tina (18:57):
third person limited.
Oh.
But like different pos uh, fordifferent chapters.
Madeleine (19:06):
Oh yeah.
So you're doing multiperspective person.
Yes.
I'm not sure.
Yeah.
Omni third?
Tina (19:16):
No.
No.
Okay.
Madeleine (19:17):
So yeah, I think that's, I'm a fan of omniscient.
Third, I get lost.
Tina (19:23):
Yeah.
No, no, definitely, definitelynot for kids, I don't think.
I dunno, there's probably someexamples.
I dunno, I'll have toinvestigate a little bit more.
Only this morning I was like,oh, I think that's my answer.
Right?
Feels right.
Yeah.
I, I think so.
I haven't even started writingit yet in that, but anyway.
I know that you write, um, thirdperson limited too, don't you?
Madeleine (19:42):
Yeah, but I think you just depends on the book.
And I think though, becauseyou're switching, you'll fine.
Like I have switched before andtried, um, first person.
Yeah.
And it takes a long time foryour brain.
To switch.
Tina (19:55):
Yes, I think it will.
You'll find
Madeleine (19:56):
yourself writing, you'll, you'll switch in amongst
writing.
You'll be like, you'll startwriting in first person.
Yes.
And then you stop and change andthat's normal.
Yeah.
But it depends on like sometimesit'll help.
Yeah, it, I think every book'sdifferent and you've just gotta
work out what books.
Right.
I think historical fiction, theperson kind of works.
I like to have that sort ofhovering narrator.
(20:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I think it also works infirst.
Um, it just depends on the storyI'm writing again in Yeah.
Third person present.
Tina (20:26):
Mm-hmm.
Um,
Madeleine (20:27):
tense.
And, um, do you know, Iactually, there was a review
recently of the butterfly womenand um, one of the reviewers
said, um, normally third person,oh no, sorry.
Normally present tense is ano-no for her.
And I read.
Flack.
Like she won't read
Tina (20:42):
present
Madeleine (20:42):
tense.
Um, but she's like, oh, but itworked for this story.
Um, so I was like, well, I'mglad it worked.
But that's interesting as well,that readers have a particular
style that they.
Tina (20:53):
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Yeah, I've been going through myson's books and being, and
trying to quiz him and he'slike, what do you mean mom makes
it so personal?
So, um, and he just can tell mewhich ones he likes and I have a
little look at it and I go, oh,okay.
That is, A lot of them arethird, but yeah, he, he'll just
read anything.
But yeah, it is interesting thatsome people yeah.
Have their preference.
I think I'm a first personreader as well.
(21:16):
I think I like that.
You like yeah.
Madeleine (21:17):
First
Tina (21:17):
person.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
It feels closer.
Madeleine (21:19):
Yeah.
I mean, and then the secondperson, and that's just.
Tina (21:23):
Yeah.
There's lots of things.
Anyway, look, I might, yeah, Ijust, this morning that this has
come to me, I'll give it alittle trial and a year ago, but
I thought I'd to know that.
I love it.
You're
Madeleine (21:32):
pushing the boundaries of, of yourself as a
writer.
That's important.
Tina (21:36):
Yes.
I'm, I'm excited.
I'm looking forward to it,actually.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Anyway, there's been lots goingon.
Um, yes.
Any, aside from just what we'vebeen up to, hasn't.
Madeleine (21:48):
Yes, it has been a big couple of weeks I think.
I think coming to end offinancial year.
Mm-hmm.
Tina (21:53):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Um, yeah, I think there's a lotof, it feels like a lot of, um,
kind of disappointment in theair, um, that vibe.
Um, I just, I feel like I'mhearing it from all directions
at the moment, from alldifferent writer friends and
groups and, um, places and, youknow, authors are, are very open
(22:16):
and, and which is great, youknow, on.
Social media posts and things aswell, which is, um, you know, a
nice insight into people's, youknow, I guess on Author lives.
But, um, yeah, a lot ofdisappointment, uh, from various
different sources, I think.
Mm-hmm.
Um, like you said, end offinancial years, so people who
(22:36):
have been published in time for,you know, them to receive.
Statements and things mm-hmm.
Are, um, sometimes a little bitdisappointed by, by what they're
getting from their sales, Isuppose.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and how things have beenselling.
Madeleine (22:50):
I mean, uh, for those, um, listeners that don't
know.
Um, so authors receive royaltiesevery six months, I think, isn't
it Tina?
Tina (22:58):
I think
Madeleine (22:58):
so.
The half.
Point of the year and at the endof the year and it captured, I
think there's a three monthdelay as well.
Um, so it would've been salesfrom like September to March, I
think this year.
And then you get paid in June.
And of course, you know, youonly earn royalties if you've
earned out to your advance.
I think we've gone through thisin the money, um, episode about
(23:21):
the difference between advancedand royalties.
And I think, I think perhaps.
The, the visual when you seeeither a$0 royalty statement or
a minus, because the minushappens when bookstores return
books.
'cause they are, they do havesale or return rights and they
can return books.
(23:43):
And that means that, you know,sometimes they can be a minus on
your statement.
And I suppose that is, um, as anauthor quite.
You know, disappointing.
It's always gonna bedisappointing, isn't it?
I think everybody dreams ofearning out, but I think, I
remember seeing a stat from theAustralian Society of Authors
that majority of authorsactually don't earn out.
Tina (24:04):
Mm.
Yes, I've heard that a lot aswell, but, so can you explain
the minus?
So that's not, people don't owethat it's ju No, it's what, it's
just sales figures, I guess.
So, um, yeah, this is myunderstanding, minus the, yeah,
Madeleine (24:18):
I'm probably not the best person to, but my
understanding is that you don'towe the publisher anything, but
you have to earn that moneyback.
Uh, in future statements to, tostart earning again.
And it's only'cause they'vegiven you perhaps your previous
statement.
Um, so yeah, I mean, it'ssomething that I've really
learned recently is that youactually, um, earn royalties
(24:41):
based on the number of salesinto bookstores, not necessarily
books bought by customers.
Oh, and so if those, yeah, whichI didn't know.
No.
And so if those bookstores thensubsequently return.
Tina (24:55):
Oh, of course.
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine (24:57):
That then is taken off your statement.
Tina (24:59):
That's the minus, yeah.
Okay.
Madeleine (25:00):
And publishers do withhold a certain proportion of
your royalties, at leastinitially to cover for that, but
mm-hmm.
Sometimes that can be, um, a bitmore.
So, um, it is, um, you know, I,I suppose authors we put.
We all know we put so much timeand effort into mm-hmm.
Writing these books and I mean,I haven't had a statement yet.
(25:22):
I'll get my first statement atthe end of the year, so I can't
really make any comments.
But, um, like you, Tina Yeah.
I've heard on the grapevine thatit has been, I.
You know, are difficult.
I suppose you, and you thinkabout the, the, the situation as
well with, um, the cost ofliving and mm-hmm.
The cost of books.
And often when cost of living ishigh, books are gonna be the
(25:43):
first things that people willsacrifice.
Tina (25:45):
They're a luxury item.
Be in classes now.
Yeah.
Um, but I think, yeah.
So, and then aside from that,like there's a lot of, or quite
a few publishers that, um, havebeen struggling as well.
There are some that are clo thathave closed.
There are some that are reallylimiting, um, how much they're
producing in a year.
And I think that just makes the,the pool of possibility even
(26:08):
smaller for authors who aretrying to be published, um, and
not just.
Brand new or that aspiringauthors like people who have
already been published beforeand are trying to get another
deal and it's, it's just ashard, um,
Madeleine (26:21):
okay, so this sounds very depressing to everyone now.
So this is the time where weThat's depressing.
Tina (26:28):
Yeah.
Madeleine (26:29):
Don't quit your day job perhaps is, I mean, that's
important.
It's, and that's, that's a term
Tina (26:34):
being like.
Advice though, isn't it?
You can't, you can't.
I think everybody is aware thatyou can't quit your day job.
I mean, one day, hopefully youcan.
Um, and I think that's importantto always, you know, hold onto
to that thought and mm-hmm.
And not get to, but there'salso, um, being realistic I
suppose that comes into it.
But yeah, I'm not trying to bedepressing.
(26:55):
We just thought that it was, um,worth a little mention on the
pub this week because we do feelthat vibe and, um.
It's also like, you know,there's a lot of competitions
that are being drawn at themoment and there's lots of
fellowships that are beingawarded.
It's a busy time for that.
So there's lots of conferenceswhere, you know, with, with
(27:15):
competitions that you know,people just sort of finding out
recently if they've made itthrough or not.
I think it's just that timing ofthat just seems to be a lot.
And so it just feels likethere's a bit of a down vibe at
the moment and rightly so, whenyou've been trying really hard
and, um, yeah, I think we justwanted to acknowledge that and
take a moment to chat about thatbecause, um, yeah, it is
(27:37):
difficult and it always has beendifficult, hasn't it?
And,
Madeleine (27:40):
and I guess though that people aren't alone.
Like if you are feeling thatmm-hmm.
Disappointment or you areexperiencing those rejections
from those fellowships andcompetitions that, you know,
everyone feels this, and I thinkyou are totally validated, and
it's okay to feel that.
Tina (27:57):
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine (27:57):
And you don't always have to say, oh, well, I have to
be grateful for everyopportunity I've had.
Tina (28:02):
Mm.
And
Madeleine (28:03):
I have to, I'm, I'm privileged.
And it's okay to feel prettycrappy, I think for a few days.
I guess then it's up to youthough, if.
How you respond to that.
Um mm-hmm.
If it's going to help, you know,inspire you to keep going and do
better and feel better.
I mean, you know, that's, it's,it's really important.
I actually really liked a post,I'm not sure, I don't think you
(28:26):
saw this one, Tina, but Kylie orwho again is a friend of the
podcast and I actually, I'mpretty sure Kylie o's episode is
out.
Number one, it's, sorry.
It's, it
Tina (28:35):
keeps, it just keeps coming up.
People just keep finding it andplaying it.
So go back and listen to Kylie.
Yours, one of our very firstones, wasn't it?
Madeleine (28:43):
Yeah.
Super, super popular and I thinkit's because Kylie's always been
very, um, honest and sheactually has a newsletter,
Substack that says.
You know, if I'm being honest.
So she's honest about, you know,sorry, is it called,
Tina (28:57):
if I'm being
Madeleine (28:57):
honest, I'm pretty sure Kylie can tell me if that's
wrong.
Um, I'm, I'm hoping she'lllisten.
Um, but yeah, she, she posted uplast week about, um, she
amazingly was long listed forthe Furphy Literary Award, which
is a really tough short storycompetition.
It's one of the biggest major.
Australian competitions.
I think it might be globalactually.
(29:18):
Mm-hmm.
So to be long list is, isincredible.
Yeah.
I think when you get those wins,like you have to sit with that,
but then you always as a, as ahuman, go, well, I wanna be
shortlisted.
And then if you're shortlist,you go, well, I wanna win.
Mm.
Tina (29:31):
Um,
Madeleine (29:31):
so, um, Kylie pressed up that, um, she did not get
shortlisted and feltdisappointment about not being
shortlisted.
Um, and mentioned that she'sbeen.
Um, in the top 20% of Varunafellowships, Varuna being a
really difficult residency toget.
Um, and it's very highlycompetitive.
(29:52):
Mm-hmm.
So to be in the top 20% is alsoincredible.
Um, you know, like that's a win.
But on the flip side, there'sthat disappointment.
And when you're rejected, and Iknow there's a lot of people
who've, who are feeling that'cause Varuna, um, I think
announced their residencies, um,just recently.
But what I loved about Kylie'sPost, and I think this really
resonates, um, with probablylots of authors, is that, you
(30:15):
know, she's, I'm just gonnaquote her here'cause she's
written it, it's perfect.
Um, you know.
Oftentimes she says, I hear no,which stings, but it doesn't
stop me.
Most things you enter, you won'twin, but that doesn't make it a
waste.
Backing yourself matters beingred matters.
I just love that.
(30:36):
No, that's beautiful words.
You're being, you're being seen,you're backing yourself.
Nothing is a waste.
Tina (30:41):
No, no, I agree.
And this thing of, um, being awaste, and I just wanna point
out again, that Kylie's multipublished.
Mm, that's right.
And she's still gettingrejections.
And I think that's important.
And I know it's hard when you'rein the.
Depth of feeling really, um,disappointed in the whole thing
and, and potentially wanting togive up.
But because, you know, I've,I've heard that a bit lately too
about, from authors justthinking, why am I even still
(31:04):
doing it?
Yeah.
And I think, and look, you know,the problem of being
disappointed in this industry, Ithink is, is timeless.
Um, but, and so is the advice Ithink in, in, and so I'm
probably gonna sound like abroken record, but, um,
absolutely.
Just, I think probablyremembering.
Why you started it in the firstplace.
(31:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, what are you doing it for?
Um, was it, are you doing it toget a multi-book deal, then
that's absolutely not the rightreasons, and that's not enough
to keep you going.
And maybe you should, you know,we all want multi-book deals
though, but, um.
It, it definitely wasn't forthat.
You, you picked up your pen oryou started typing because you
(31:45):
loved it or you had a story totell and it's, I think it's
just, you know, going back tothose roots maybe.
Yes.
Um, taking that idea of beingsigned off the pedestal.
Do you know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
And just being like, that's notwhy I'm doing it.
I'm doing, again, thinking aboutwhy I started, because I love
it.
And it may take a long time andit may take, you know, all my
(32:07):
efforts or I may decide to evenhave a little break and
reenergize myself on it.
But just, um, yeah, not havingthat as your final goal.
And I liken it to, um, I wastalking to Danny V about this
actually on the podcast justlast week.
I liken.
Writing to, you know, being anartist.
(32:29):
If there's people who paint andthey could paint every day, or
they can paint every weekend, orthere's people who cross stitch,
putting my finger up.
Me, I don't cross stitch so Ican enter some amaze and I don't
really do much of it.
I just wanna point the prefacewith that.
But like, you know, I don't dothat.
I don't do my paint by numbersbecause I want to enter it into
(32:51):
a.
Artist competition and have anexhibition at a famous art
gallery and earn money from it.
I do it because I enjoy it.
Um, you know, and so peoplepaint because they enjoy it.
People, you know, do lots ofcraft because they enjoy it.
They make things because theyenjoy it and they don't have
that big goal.
So we write because we enjoy it,and we're just gonna remember
(33:14):
that and sort of maybe come backto that.
You know, still have that hopeand dream of having that big
goal of being published one dayor getting another deal.
But, um, that's right.
Writing to do it just for the,the love of it, I think.
Madeleine (33:29):
And I think if, um, as authors, I mean all of us.
You and I, both Tina, haveexperienced rejections.
Mm-hmm.
It's just part of the parcel,isn't it?
And if we were to give upbecause of those rejections, we
wouldn't be here right nowhaving Yeah, that's right.
Like it's, it's, but it's reallyhard in the moment.
It's easy for us to say inhindsight, because we can look
(33:51):
back mm-hmm.
And say, well, it was all partof a, a path
Tina (33:55):
mm-hmm.
Madeleine (33:56):
To getting our book deals.
Yeah.
And that's what was happening.
But when you're in the thick ofit, in that sort of.
Yeah.
Full feelings and yeah.
Questioning whether you areyou're any good or if you're, I
think you are exactly right.
Going back to the root andgoing, why am I doing this?
Because, let me ask you, Tina,oh, I'm interested.
If you did not get your dealwith Neeka
Tina (34:21):
and you
Madeleine (34:21):
were still trying and still seeking publication
Tina (34:24):
mm-hmm.
Madeleine (34:25):
Would you keep writing?
Tina (34:26):
Yes.
I would, because I've, and I'vewritten though for a very long
time.
I've written my whole life,really.
I had a big break, you know,when I was at uni I was in my
twenties and stuff, but I havewritten my whole life in some
way or another, and it neverwas.
Because of, to be publishedever.
Mm-hmm.
(34:47):
You know, as a teenager, as a10-year-old, you know, it's, you
don't write because you thinkyou're gonna sell a book.
You just, I literally would sitat a computer at home, um, while
my friends were playing and Iwould write because I enjoyed
it.
Mm-hmm.
And I had a, I had stories in myhead and they just had to come
out.
Um, you know, so Yeah,absolutely I would, because I
(35:09):
actually just thought of it as ahobby.
Madeleine (35:11):
Mm.
Tina (35:12):
I enjoyed doing it.
What about you, Madeleine?
Madeleine (35:15):
Oh, I'd be still writing for sure.
I never thought that I would getpublished.
I just didn't have that conceptas well.
Um, but I suppose having saidall of this though, and I mean,
it, it, I still had some, Istill had hope though, that one
day something might happen.
Yeah.
And that would be, mm-hmm.
Because I still think even.
(35:37):
After getting rejections and,um, you wanna lower your
expectations and you wannaprotect yourself mm-hmm.
From those feelings ofdisappointment.
And, and you can start to say toyourself, well, I'm writing
'cause I love it and I don'thave any expectations of
publication.
I think you still have to havehope though.
Tina (35:54):
You do.
No, you definitely do because Ithink being, feeling hopeless in
this and then you, it absolutelywon't work.
I think you do have to sort ofhave that plan and have that
goal, and I don't know if wewanna touch on some
manifestation here.
Yes.
I maybe everyone that's, that's,I think everybody who's feeling
the disappointment at themoment, maybe go and find the
(36:15):
episode that we did with JaneTara a couple of weeks ago.
It might be a nice littlerecalibration or a new way of
potentially looking at itbecause you do just have, you do
have wants and you have dreams.
And that's a hundred percent andabsolutely, um, imperative, I
think to, to know where youwanna go so you can take the
steps to get there,
Madeleine (36:35):
well, I was gonna say though, Tina, on that, um,
you've reminded me, I mean,while Jane, Ty says, you can
hope and you can man likemanifest and put it on your
vision board.
Mm-hmm.
You still have to take action.
Mm.
Yeah.
And that's key, isn't it?
So it's things like what both ofus have done over the last few
years is get to know theindustry, get build a community
(36:58):
research, understand what a bookdeal is, what it means.
Um, get your name out there.
I guess what Kylie is saying,being read is just as important
as.
Like winning a prize or beingshortlisted or being long
listed, you're being read.
So it is vulnerable putting yourwork out there.
It's awful when you're rejectedfor these types of prizes, but
(37:22):
you're putting your name out andit's just another step.
So, and that goes to what Janewas saying about, yeah, you can
manifest, you can hope, but youstill need to take those
practical steps as well.
Mm-hmm.
Tina (37:33):
Yeah.
And there can be a thousandreasons why it wasn't a yes.
Mm-hmm.
Or why you weren't successful.
Yes.
A thousand reasons.
And sometimes, you know, 999 ofthem had nothing to do with
actually the quality of yourwriting or who you are as an
author.
It's to do with market or it'sto do with.
The number of people thatapplied.
It's to do with how well it fitthe criteria.
(37:54):
There's, there's so much.
So it's, you know, we've saidbefore, it's a numbers game as
well.
Yes.
Yeah.
And just to remember that.
And you know, sometimes it'd behelpful to go and have a little
Google of famous authors whowere rejected multiple times
before they exactly becamebestsellers.
That's also helpful.
I did find out tonight thatthere is, I think it's a
Facebook community that is Yes.
(38:15):
Like the 100 Rejections Club orsomething like that.
So anyone who's had 100rejections or more can can join
this elite.
Facebook club.
So go and have a look for it.
Um, if you haven't had 100reject rejections, make that
your goal.
Make that your goal, and thenyou can become part of this
really awesome group.
Um, and you might
Madeleine (38:34):
get one, one yes as well.
Yeah.
And that, that makes all thedifference.
Tina (38:38):
Or you're improving your writing every single time.
You Exactly.
You're submitting it, so, youknow, and I think everybody
who's listening to the pod,who's who are authors, they know
all these things too.
But sometimes it's a good littlereminder.
Um.
You know, things will ebb andflow and you'll ebb and flow and
your feelings will ebb and flowwith it.
But you know, if you enjoy itand you enjoy the community,
(38:58):
like why would you stop doingthat?
Madeleine (39:00):
Exactly.
The community's the best part.
And that's what I've heard fromsome of our debut crew authors
as well, who've, who've justsaying like, despite all the
perhaps disappointment, um.
The things that have happened tothem this year that haven't gone
great and haven't gone their wayand they've felt a little bit
(39:20):
disappointed.
'cause you know, that's justnatural.
Having the community and findingthe community has been a
surprise and the best part aboutall of this.
Tina (39:29):
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine (39:30):
So if you are feeling that way.
Reach out to your community.
It can be the writing communityor just your friends as well and
family.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and you know, we shouldstart like, I don't know, our
own community book dealcommunity, Tina.
We've, we're thinking about, um,setting up a Patreon in future
and bringing people along whowant a bit of extra book deal.
(39:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Things as well.
And starting a bit of a club totalk with writers about.
Their goals and what they wannado and if it's something that we
can assist with.
So we should think about that.
Tina (40:05):
Yeah, we should do.
We'll, we'll put that back onthe agenda.
Madeleine (40:08):
Zoom with Tina and Madeleine, talk about your book
deal.
Tina (40:11):
Yes.
Tell us your stories, justsuccess stories as well.
So yeah, I think that's.
So that's some, that's, that'smy top tips anyway.
Go away and Google some famousresource that, that got rejected
many times.
Um, but also, yes, justremembering this, this is the
process, isn't it?
And remembering why you love it.
(40:33):
Mm-hmm.
And maybe focus on those things,the community and just the joy
of writing.
Mm-hmm.
Whatever happens, happens.
Madeleine (40:41):
That's right.
And don't feel afraid to share,like Kylie, I think Kylies very
courageous.
Tina (40:46):
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine (40:46):
Don't feel afraid to share that that might actually
be quite cathartic and helpful.
I think that's my top tip.
Tina (40:52):
Yeah.
And helpful for others, not justyourself by sharing it.
Yes.
Madeleine (40:56):
Yes.
I agree.
And because I think everyone'sin this together, and Instagram
often does, is a, it's, it's a.
You know, shows a curatedversion of people's lives and
mm-hmm.
I mean, this is partly why I'mtaking a bit of a break from
Instagram at the moment as well,because, you know, there's a
lot, a lot there and it's, it'squite distracting and, um, and
(41:19):
significant, so.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I think that, um, you know,even though I'm taking a break,
I'm obviously still doing bookdeal.
That's how I saw Kylie's post.
It's priorities.
Gotta keep myself accountable.
Otherwise my husband will belike, what were you doing on
Instagram?
So maybe, and maybe for somepeople it's taking a break from
(41:41):
social media as well.
Tina (41:43):
Yes, yes.
Because it's very hard, it'svery hard to deal with those
feelings of, um, not achievingwhat you want when other people
are posting up all theseincredible things that are
happening to them.
And yeah, like you said, it's,it's.
You dunno what's behind that.
Madeleine (41:59):
That's right.
So maybe that's my top tip then.
Take a break from socials if youfeel like you need it.
Tina (42:04):
Yep.
Madeleine (42:04):
Step away for a few weeks, even a few days.
And just find, go back to whatyou were saying, Tina.
Go.
Go to the root causes.
Like what's driving you towrite, what do you love about
writing?
Mm-hmm.
And get back to that original,authentic self as of yourself as
a writer.
Tina (42:22):
And if you have any tips, anybody who's listening for, um,
our authors that are listeningas well, who are going through
this time, please let us knowhow you have worked through it.
Um, I know we also have lots ofour episodes where we've asked
authors what did they do after arejection?
And I think 99% of the time theysay, yep.
(42:43):
Sit with it for a bit.
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine (42:46):
It happens.
Feel sorry for yourself for abit and then suck it
Tina (42:48):
up and move
Madeleine (42:49):
on.
That's right, that's right.
Yeah, so, exactly, exactly.
On something a bit morepositive, are you reading any
good books at the moment, Tina?
Tina (42:59):
Uh, I've got a few on the go and I'm so conflicted.
Um, and I don't like to have toomany on the go, but I do at the
moment.
But the two that I brought awaywith me camping
Madeleine (43:09):
yes.
Tina (43:10):
Is um.
We saw what you started by CarlaSalmon, which is a ya and I do
love a Good ya.
Um, which is amazing, which onlycame out just the last week or
so and I went to her incrediblebook launch on the Gold Coast,
which was so fun.
Um, and I'm also reading RIPNanny Tobins by our other
(43:33):
lovely, um, debut crew memberLucy Stevens.
Madeleine (43:38):
Oh, yes.
So, and that's really fun.
Tina (43:40):
Yeah, that's a middle grade.
Really fun.
Um, and I'm like, I'm in justkind of halfway through both of
them and trying to, I
Madeleine (43:47):
love, I love that.
Oh, you're balancing both.
Tina (43:50):
Yes.
I'm trying to decide, but I amgoing to interview Carla very
soon for the book deal.
So, um, finish her one first andthen, and then keep going with.
Nanny Tobin, so
Madeleine (43:59):
that's
Tina (44:00):
good.
What about you?
Madeleine (44:01):
Well, we'll stick with the debut theme.
Um, I'm reading Stillwater byTanya Scott, um, which is coming
out at the end of this monthactually.
So I got an early copy of it andoh my gosh, it is amazing.
Mm-hmm.
It's a, it's a thriller, um, setin Melbourne, um, although there
(44:21):
is a bit of a country aspect toit, but it's so funny'cause
Tanya.
I don't, you've met Tanya?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Lovely.
Sweet.
Mm-hmm.
She's great, kind.
Mm-hmm.
Beautiful human.
Mm-hmm.
She's like, um, a doctor and amedical trainer, and she's so,
so wonderful.
And this book, it's like, it'slike there's like, um.
(44:47):
It's this, this very conflicted,um, morally gray kind of
character, main character.
Luke is his name.
Tanya?
Yeah, I know.
And like he, it's a bit of abadass book.
Like I'm loving it, but I'm alsolike, where is this coming from?
Tanya?
Tina (45:05):
Yeah.
Oh, like mob bosses and guns andall sorts.
I'm Tanya, we're gonna have totalk about this when we see you
next.
Very exciting.
Yeah.
Madeleine (45:13):
I'm definitely, um, very keen to finish.
I'm halfway through and I'm justflying through it, so I think
this is gonna be a big hit,right?
Still water.
Okay.
Tina (45:21):
Give it.
Can you lend it to meafterwards?
Madeleine (45:23):
Yep.
I'll, I'll give it to you whenyou're here in Melbourne.
Okay.
Awesome.
Tina (45:27):
Yes.
Which is soon.
Which is soon.
Actually.
Very soon.
Oh, okay.
Madeleine (45:33):
Well, enjoy.
Don't get murdered, please.
Um, let me know when you'reOkay.
Safely back home and enjoyseeing Neeka and the storm, not
the missing storm.
Um,
Tina (45:44):
it's very present.
Madeleine (45:46):
I'm gonna, actually, I'm going to GIMs tomorrow, so
I'm gonna see if I can find it.
I think I definitely find it,but I'm gonna take some photos
and I'll send it to you.
Aw,
Tina (45:54):
thank you.
Tina Strachan (46:02):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
podcast.
If you enjoyed this episode,please subscribe to the pod so
you can receive updates as soonas our new EPS drop and to keep
up to date with what the pod isdoing.
You can also find us onInstagram.
This is the Book Deal podcast where you will
discover the inspiring stories,the authors behind your favorite
books.
No matter what stage of writingyou are at, we've got you
covered.
I'm Tina Strachan.
And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
And join us as we pull back thecurtain of published authors one
deal at a time.
Madeleine Cleary (00:29):
The book Deal podcast acknowledges the
traditional owners of the landand waters, which it's recorded
on and pays respect to theirelders past, present, and
emerging.
Tina (00:43):
Good evening, Madeleine.
How are you going?
I love that we're catching up ona Saturday night again, but
we've swapped.
Mm-hmm.
You have the glass of red inhand this time, and I have a cup
of tea.
Not kocha, but a cup of tea.
See, I'm not that boring, but Iam still in my pajamas though,
which is pretty good.
Madeleine (01:02):
I mean, you look fantastic.
I was just saying when you cameon, so you are actually, do you
wanna describe your currentsituation?
Sure, yes.
I'm sitting in the passengercar, passenger car, passenger
seat.
I've only had one glass of wine,I promise, in the passenger seat
of our car because we're campingin away, we're away in our
caravan at the moment, schoolholidays.
(01:22):
And um, yeah, so I've got agreat setup with the phone, um,
perch on top of the dashboardand a camping light.
It's a bit cool outside.
So I've got my son's audio onmy.
My legs and my boots on.
I'm overlooking the beautifullake, actually.
So it's really nice.
It actually kind of looks likehorror.
Horror, like story vibes outsideof, oh God.
Tina (01:44):
You're always thinking storylines, aren't you?
You know?
It kind of does, doesn't it?
Madeleine (01:49):
Yeah.
I'm pretty scared for you.
Okay.
It's very dark.
I'll just look.
Hang on.
I'll just lock the door.
Please do.
But um, I was just saying like,Tina's like, oh yeah, I'm in my
pajamas.
Da da.
She has the most perfect glowabout her right now.
Like the camping light is doingreally nice things.
So I think
Tina (02:06):
I should just do
Madeleine (02:06):
this
Tina (02:07):
for all our, um, I reckon podcast maybe.
Madeleine (02:10):
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
You look at, and also I'm, I'massuming as well, you've got a
very nice glow because you'rebasking in book two release.
Glow as well.
Tina (02:20):
I know.
Congratulations.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Yes.
Uh, Neeka in the storm.
So book two of the Wild Zooseries came out just this week,
just a few days ago, which is,um, yeah, really exciting.
Very exciting.
And I wanna,
Madeleine (02:34):
I wanna actually share with the listeners, um,
our, uh, WhatsApp chat, um, themorning that RA and the missing
storm.
Missing storm.
I just combined your book oneand.
Neeka and the storm came out, Ithink it was, I was pretty early
actually.
I was awake early for me.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
It was like six 30.
Mm-hmm.
And I was like, oh, Tina will beawake.
(02:55):
And I messaged you like HappyPub Day.
Like just something random.
And you replied, I forgot.
Okay.
Tina (03:05):
I know that sounds terrible, but in my defense it
was.
Um, I had already been up forlike two and a half, two hours.
Madeleine, of course you havebeen.
I'd got, I, I'd processed theemotions.
No, but at that point when youhad messaged me, I was on the
treadmill.
I was just getting some steps inbefore our drive away and, um.
(03:27):
Sorry, you're looking and
Madeleine (03:28):
peering outside the window.
Oh my god.
I know.
I, no, the lights
Tina (03:31):
on the car were flashing and I, I was wondering if I was
gonna set the alarm off.
Um, oh crap.
I just,
Madeleine (03:35):
my heart actually just stopped for you.
Then I'm like, are you about tobe murdered?
Tina (03:38):
I am literally in between two caravans and there's like,
it's the car next door.
It's fine.
I'm not gonna be murdered.
If we do, it's live on air, sowe'll have a recording of it.
We could find who did it, andthen you can write a book about
it.
Madeleine (03:54):
Oh my God.
This a great plot actually to anovel live on podcast.
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
No one's steal that.
I'm gonna copyright that.
Tina (04:05):
Okay.
No.
Okay.
Okay.
You forgot.
So, my defense, I was up, I was,I, you know, had processed the
thing and we had such a busyday.
Mm.
And of course I knew it.
Of course I knew it was thatday.
And, you know, I'd spoken abouta thousand times and the night
before.
Um, but I think because we weregetting up and were getting out
of the house,'cause, you know,it was very different this time.
You know, I, book one, I had Ithink two weeks off or a week
(04:27):
off of work before it came out.
So I had all this time to sortof.
In the glow of book release,whereas this time I worked,
worked up until the day before,um, kids were on school
holidays.
So it's, it was hectic and yeah,just a lot of life, was um, sort
of creeping in and yeah, I wason the treadmill ready to go.
(04:48):
And it was just funny'cause whenyou had, uh, when you did text
me, I think it was just.
I really felt like, oh, this isso different to book one, where
I, I certainly had the day, um,all to myself and to sort of
just really spend on it, but youknow what I think it is.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Because the, obviously theexcitement is still absolutely
there and just.
(05:09):
Um, it is not lost on me, likethe achievement of having
another book, of course out.
It's, I think with your firstbook, you go from zero,
literally to a hundredovernight.
Yeah.
So you go from zero, you're nota, you're not a published
author.
And then the next day you're apublished author and messages
are coming in and Instagram'scoming in and people are posting
and reposting and sharing.
(05:30):
It's the first time any, you seelike your book.
From someone else on Instagram,say so.
So maybe one of the, um, booksgrammars, uh, have done a review
or one of your friends has seenit in the shop and they've
posted it.
And I think it's that first timethat you ever see anything and
it's all just, it literally goesfrom zero to a hundred.
Madeleine (05:49):
It's almost like the, the, A switch has been turned on
in a dark room.
Yes.
And it's bright a hundredpercent.
And you are very visible.
All the time.
Yes.
Tina (05:58):
Yeah.
Yeah, a hundred percent.
And it's a lot, and it's reallybusy.
And then you're getting used tojust all those things and, and
how to navigate that.
And so, and because it's onlybeen like six months since Yes.
You know, Neeka and the missingkey came out and now book two is
out.
It felt like, you know, pro, itdefinitely wanes from that a
hundred percent to like, youknow, maybe 50 at times to like
(06:19):
back up it's mood light.
It's a dim, dim mood light.
It's, it's dimmed and then itkind of flickers and then it
gets, and then it just startsgetting.
Um, brighter and brighter Ithink because you're already
booking in events for otherthings.
Not even just for a book launch,but you know, because you now
have published also a book outand another one coming out.
Then you know, people asking todo.
(06:39):
So you, you're very much stillin the, the wheels are still
turning on it, I think.
Mm-hmm.
So by the time this happened, itwas like, I was already sitting
at like 80% and so when book twocame out, it was back up at a
hundred percent.
Yeah.
But, but it just wasn't that bigleap.
Madeleine (06:54):
Yep.
That makes sense.
Which is nice.
Because that's probably prettyAnd first tube because
unsustainable.
Do you think as well, becauseyou are writing a series and
it's book two, that it, it'sthat con continuation as well?
Yes, yes.
Less like startling because it'snot like you're writing in a
different genre or somethingcompletely brand new that you
have to really, you know,'causeyou've got now people who are
(07:15):
interested at readership knowTina and Neeka and associate the
two of you together.
Tina (07:21):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think, you know, they'recoming, you know?
Mm-hmm.
If you, when you have anotherbook that you haven't yet maybe
signed or have a date for, um,it's, there's still lots of
unknowns.
I think so.
Or a lot of time in between ayear or two years.
Yeah.
I think it had, yeah, you'dstill have that big leap
Madeleine (07:39):
because it's actually, I just, I just
realized it's actually only likefive months.
Tina (07:43):
Yeah.
Madeleine (07:43):
Between missing key and storm.
Yeah, that's actually, that'sactually not that long.
Um, have you seen Neeka in thestorm yet?
In a bookshop?
Tina (07:53):
I have not.
Madeleine (07:54):
I have not.
I, I figured you wouldn't havebecause you've literally been
away camping since.
Tina (07:59):
Yeah.
And we're somewhere that doesn'thave a lot of.
We're not very close tobookstores, so, and also I've
got the kids with me and they'reso sick of being dragged to
bookstores.
They're like, we've done that,mom.
We've seen your book.
Yeah.
Done.
We don't need to see it again.
You're done.
Yeah.
Madeleine (08:14):
One and done.
That's it.
Yeah,
Tina (08:15):
yeah, yeah.
That's it.
Whatever.
Get over it.
Mom.
Stop talking about books all thetime.
Madeleine (08:21):
Have, have they read it yet?
No.
Nope.
So it is your first, so wait,when do you get, when do you get
back home?
Tina (08:30):
Um, oh.
In a couple days.
Okay.
So yeah, I will Is your
Madeleine (08:33):
first mission to go and see it and find it?
Tina (08:36):
Yeah, I think I, I think I'll, I'll go out and go for a
little wander and, and see if Ican see it.
Yeah, that'll be nice.
That'll be
Madeleine (08:43):
very exciting.
And your I event is on theweekend, is it next week?
And,
Tina (08:48):
um, no.
I have two, uh, two libraryauthor talks for kids, um, gold
Coast libraries.
And then I have a, uh, workshopquick.
Brown fox.
That's, so by the time that'sthis airs, it'll probably be,
um, they'll probably be over.
Mm-hmm.
But then I also do have, um, abook launch at Quick Brown Fox,
which is also the same, um, timeand date as their third birthday
(09:11):
celebration.
So, um, anybody in the Brisbanearea, make sure you get on, get
in touch with Quick Brown Fox,uh, about their third birthday
because that's coming up soon.
Madeleine (09:21):
Oh, that sounds lovely.
Yeah, they're a beautiful books.
Wine or wine or he kind ofparty.
Oh.
Tina (09:26):
Oh.
Um, I don't, I know there'sgonna be Cake.
Cake Party.
I know that.
Yeah.
Cake party.
That sounds amazing.
Yeah.
But what about you, Madeleine?
Are you also glowing as always?
What's happening?
Madeleine (09:37):
Oh, well, I mean, yeah, it feels like lots of.
Lots of things have beenhappening, but also not a lot.
But the really exciting thing,last week I went to Emma Pagan's
launch of her day novel whenSleeping Women Wake, um, which
was at Amplify Bookstore inMelbourne, which is an amazing
bookshop, which is dedicated topromoting diverse voices.
(09:58):
So it's this beautiful bookstoreand Emma has become a friend.
Um, she.
Helped me launch the Butterflywomen in Canberra.
And so, so she's from Canberra,so it was awesome to be able to
be there.
And so she was in conversationwith our friend of a podcast
Tina (10:13):
mm-hmm.
Madeleine (10:13):
Parker.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, and they were bothbrilliant, so I could have, um,
sat and listened to them chatall night.
So it was so fun, and I've read.
Emma's book and it is wonderful.
So I do highly recommend it ifyou're a fan of historical
fiction or just a fan of justinteresting stories, it's set in
Hong Kong, in in World War ii.
It's, um, set in Hong Kongduring the Japanese occupation.
(10:34):
So it's a brilliant book.
So I'm really excited to see.
Um, I was really excited to seethat one come out into the
world, so that was really fun.
Um, and then the other thing Isuppose is a progress update
for.
Um, drafting of book two.
Yeah.
Tina (10:48):
So you're gonna get, are you gonna, uh, check in and give
us the stats?
Yes.
Where are you at?
Madeleine (10:52):
I couldn't remember where I was at last Fortnite, so
I went and Google, like, Ididn't Google it, but I searched
in our archive, um, because wecan search the, the terms and I
was at 25,000 wa at Fortnite go.
So.
Awesome.
I'm pleased to tell you Tina,that as of today I'm up 37,000,
so Oh wow.
Awesome.
Awesome spot to be in.
(11:13):
But it's getting harder.
Tina (11:16):
Is it?
Is it because, okay.
Do you feel like you've come tothe end of that natural act one
now, and now you're getting intothat middle, um, act two kind of
thing?
And that is the struggle, isn'tit?
That's the, the bit that yousort of wanna run through in a
way to get to your Act three,isn't it?
Because that gets super excitingagain, so it's that middle, it's
(11:36):
that.
We never quite worked it as itsoggy or saggy, middle, soggy
Madeleine (11:39):
or soggy, middle.
Both.
Same.
It's it.
Do you know, and I've been dyingto tell you this, and I thought
I'd save it for the podcastbecause I feel like you're gonna
be so pleased.
Oh,
Tina (11:49):
please tell me.
Madeleine (11:52):
So today, um, I was writing, I think because I'm,
it's a bit more, this book isprobably a little bit more
crime.
Focused, maybe there's a strongcrime narrative.
Um, and as I'm writing, so I'mup to, yeah, that sort of saggy
middle, soggy middle, and to todate, I had just been sort of
revealing slowly like who themurderer is.
(12:16):
As I go through, and then Idiscovered this huge gaping plot
hole, um, about 10,000 wordsabove.
Um, and so I was like, oh, no,I've gotta go fix that.
So I went and fixed that,deleted words, my work account
went down.
And then as I'm writing it, Ijust realized, I'm like, oh, I'm
writing a crime book and I haveno red herrings.
(12:37):
Like I'm just revealing themurderer slowly.
Mm, because I'm a pants and Idon't plot anything.
Mm.
And I'm trying to understandwhat, who the murderer is.
Mm-hmm.
And, and I'm just slowlyunveiling it to me and Yeah.
Yeah.
There's no one, there's no oneelse.
So I had a whole cast ofcharacters, so I'm like, oh,
(12:58):
I'll do some red herrings.
But I was like, oh, I'll inventnew characters.
I'm like, no, no, no.
I have these existing charactersI can.
Transform this, right?
So I'm, I'm sitting thereoutside of my deck and my brain
is exploding because I'm like,holy crap.
I, it's everything.
The plot, the story, thecharacters are all just in my
(13:18):
head.
Nothing is written down.
And I said, I was like, okay,what would Tina do?
And Tina would do, would do a.
She would plot it out and shewould do a mind map or
something.
So I got a big sheet of paper.
This is literally today.
I sat on the floor of my houseand I wrote out every
(13:40):
character's name, and then Idrew links between each of them
to work out.
And because when you're writingthese like, like from a crime
perspective, you have to alsothink about.
People know different parts ofthe story and parts of the
information, and so yeah, I'vegot this huge map now that I
drew and I was able to createall these connections between
(14:03):
people and that's all my redherrings.
Tina (14:05):
That's so good.
Madeleine (14:05):
And I sorted it out.
Tina (14:06):
Yeah.
Did you feel like it just flowedfor you once you started writing
it and even maybe opened up?
New ideas.
New ideas, or brought forwardnew ideas that you sort of
hadn't really, I mean, obviouslyit brought forward your, your
red herrings.
Madeleine (14:19):
So that's huge.
It created everything for me.
Like the whole, basically thenext it it, it's not like I've
plotted it out, it's just thatI've helped understand, um, who
yeah knows who and how, and.
Who's hiding this piece andwho's got a secret and who's
hiding something, and yeah.
Tina (14:37):
And, and that's really important.
Yes.
Obviously that story
Madeleine (14:41):
and Yeah.
Yeah.
Tina (14:41):
Do so did you know who the killer was before?
Always.
Madeleine (14:44):
I suspected I have, I had a person in mind.
Yeah.
And so I was like, Ooh, I thinkit's gonna be this person.
But, um, but I didn't know how.
The The main character wouldsuspect other people.
Tina (14:59):
Yeah.
Like
Madeleine (14:59):
why they would have any interest in this.
I just was like, oh, I think itshould be this person.
But I didn't know why, but now Iknow why, and that's really
helpful.
So I'm gonna start writing againtomorrow with all this in mind.
Tina (15:11):
Yeah.
Madeleine (15:12):
I probably will have to go back and layer things.
Yeah.
But I'm gonna just keep movingforward and I'll do that later.
Tina (15:17):
Yeah, and it
Madeleine (15:18):
could
Tina (15:18):
change.
It could still change, you know,because you won't know until you
write it, but at least it's kindof clear now and you're not sort
of wasting time by potentiallykeeping on writing and and
going, oh, I didn't create thatlink, or I missed that link.
Or I could have really includedthat there.
Yes, you've got that now.
And you know what my othertheory is on that is you were
using pen and paper.
I just have this, I certain thatlike if you get stuck and
(15:43):
honestly it doesn't even matterhow messy it is and maybe you
can't even read it again, butsometimes I just, I've written
pages and pages and pages innotebooks trying to get it to
work, like the storyline towork.
Like if you do have a plot holeor you, it's a timeline thing.
Yes.
I just, I dunno what it's about.
It, it's.
Pretty sure I can find somescience to back it up.
(16:04):
That it just simulates thatcreativity or that problem
solving or something of pen topaper.
So listeners out there, ifyou're stuck, get pen and paper
out and don't worry about howmessy it's, just write it down
because it's it.
Is a connection straight intoyour creative soul.
I'm sure of it.
I agree.
Madeleine (16:22):
The pen and paper thing helped and it getting off
my laptop'cause I couldn't spaceit the way I wanted, like make
it very express.
Mm-hmm.
But pen and paper allows you tobe really?
Yeah.
And you
Tina (16:31):
can like circle,
Madeleine (16:32):
you can underline Yes.
You can like
Tina (16:33):
do like go over it a thousand times and just like
cross it out.
Yes.
But
Madeleine (16:37):
when
Tina (16:37):
it's in like a Word document or something, it just
gets super messy.
Madeleine (16:40):
It does.
I felt like I did.
I did a few messy versionsbefore I did the final and then
I hand wrote out the final
Tina (16:46):
Yeah.
Madeleine (16:46):
As I was, it was just solving everything.
So I think,'cause I found thishuge pothole this morning, I
think that really spurred me tothink really carefully about
this story.
Yeah.
And I'm really glad I did that.
And it's not, and I can keep mypants vibes because it just is
creating.
And understanding and awarenessat a holistic level.
(17:09):
But how it gets to the end, Istill don't know.
Tina (17:12):
Yeah, and that's good.
That's okay.
And I think that's it.
It's just a tool to use, likeflooding and all those sort of,
you know, you're just trying towork out the characters and the
connections and stuff, and it'sall just a tool to get you to
the end.
And it's smart because.
What else are you?
You're not just gonna writethousands and thousands of words
that aren't gonna get you whereyou wanna go.
That's yes, and back in
Madeleine (17:31):
the day, that's what I would've done.
Just written thousands anddeleted.
Then I think this might make methen, for this book, a er.
Tina (17:40):
Yeah.
Do you think I like that?
Yeah, I guess so.
Madeleine (17:43):
Congratulations,
Tina (17:44):
RO.
Madeleine (17:44):
Thank you.
I've brought
Tina (17:45):
you over to the dark side.
Madeleine (17:47):
I'm growing up as a writer.
It's very exciting.
But I do think that it'simportant as a, when you're
writing crime, to just have thisin a it.
It's important otherwise, Imean, you can still pan set, but
then I think you have to goback.
Tina (18:01):
At some point you still have to plot it to even just
find your timeline.
'cause remember we don't wannadrive in the car for 26 hours
without a break.
Exactly.
You know, we, we need to keepgoing.
We need to check it.
Hey, but you know what,something that you might be
really proud of me for mm-hmm.
Is I have always ridden in firstperson or Yes.
My first person writer.
I mean, and when you write kidthat they like the kids enjoy
(18:24):
first person, it's putthemselves into
Madeleine (18:26):
the
Tina (18:26):
book.
Yeah.
They can get really close to thecharacter I have just.
I've been plotting out, notplotting out, thinking about
maybe I call it plotting.
I don't know.
I've been writing, you know, mybrain dump that I do, or I just
like, yeah, vomit, drop, likethis and that.
Yes.
Vomiting.
Vomiting.
Um, I have.
(18:46):
I can't, how do I make thiswork?
Like how do I get, tell thestory that I wanna tell, but
also include, you know, theother characters from their
side.
Madeleine (18:55):
Mm.
I'm like third person,
Tina (18:57):
third person limited.
Oh.
But like different pos uh, fordifferent chapters.
Madeleine (19:06):
Oh yeah.
So you're doing multiperspective person.
Yes.
I'm not sure.
Yeah.
Omni third?
Tina (19:16):
No.
No.
Okay.
Madeleine (19:17):
So yeah, I think that's, I'm a fan of omniscient.
Third, I get lost.
Tina (19:23):
Yeah.
No, no, definitely, definitelynot for kids, I don't think.
I dunno, there's probably someexamples.
I dunno, I'll have toinvestigate a little bit more.
Only this morning I was like,oh, I think that's my answer.
Right?
Feels right.
Yeah.
I, I think so.
I haven't even started writingit yet in that, but anyway.
I know that you write, um, thirdperson limited too, don't you?
Madeleine (19:42):
Yeah, but I think you just depends on the book.
And I think though, becauseyou're switching, you'll fine.
Like I have switched before andtried, um, first person.
Yeah.
And it takes a long time foryour brain.
To switch.
Tina (19:55):
Yes, I think it will.
You'll find
Madeleine (19:56):
yourself writing, you'll, you'll switch in amongst
writing.
You'll be like, you'll startwriting in first person.
Yes.
And then you stop and change andthat's normal.
Yeah.
But it depends on like sometimesit'll help.
Yeah, it, I think every book'sdifferent and you've just gotta
work out what books.
Right.
I think historical fiction, theperson kind of works.
I like to have that sort ofhovering narrator.
(20:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I think it also works infirst.
Um, it just depends on the storyI'm writing again in Yeah.
Third person present.
Tina (20:26):
Mm-hmm.
Um,
Madeleine (20:27):
tense.
And, um, do you know, Iactually, there was a review
recently of the butterfly womenand um, one of the reviewers
said, um, normally third person,oh no, sorry.
Normally present tense is ano-no for her.
And I read.
Flack.
Like she won't read
Tina (20:42):
present
Madeleine (20:42):
tense.
Um, but she's like, oh, but itworked for this story.
Um, so I was like, well, I'mglad it worked.
But that's interesting as well,that readers have a particular
style that they.
Tina (20:53):
Yeah.
That's interesting.
Yeah, I've been going through myson's books and being, and
trying to quiz him and he'slike, what do you mean mom makes
it so personal?
So, um, and he just can tell mewhich ones he likes and I have a
little look at it and I go, oh,okay.
That is, A lot of them arethird, but yeah, he, he'll just
read anything.
But yeah, it is interesting thatsome people yeah.
Have their preference.
I think I'm a first personreader as well.
(21:16):
I think I like that.
You like yeah.
Madeleine (21:17):
First
Tina (21:17):
person.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
It feels closer.
Madeleine (21:19):
Yeah.
I mean, and then the secondperson, and that's just.
Tina (21:23):
Yeah.
There's lots of things.
Anyway, look, I might, yeah, Ijust, this morning that this has
come to me, I'll give it alittle trial and a year ago, but
I thought I'd to know that.
I love it.
You're
Madeleine (21:32):
pushing the boundaries of, of yourself as a
writer.
That's important.
Tina (21:36):
Yes.
I'm, I'm excited.
I'm looking forward to it,actually.
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Anyway, there's been lots goingon.
Um, yes.
Any, aside from just what we'vebeen up to, hasn't.
Madeleine (21:48):
Yes, it has been a big couple of weeks I think.
I think coming to end offinancial year.
Mm-hmm.
Tina (21:53):
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Um, yeah, I think there's a lotof, it feels like a lot of, um,
kind of disappointment in theair, um, that vibe.
Um, I just, I feel like I'mhearing it from all directions
at the moment, from alldifferent writer friends and
groups and, um, places and, youknow, authors are, are very open
(22:16):
and, and which is great, youknow, on.
Social media posts and things aswell, which is, um, you know, a
nice insight into people's, youknow, I guess on Author lives.
But, um, yeah, a lot ofdisappointment, uh, from various
different sources, I think.
Mm-hmm.
Um, like you said, end offinancial years, so people who
(22:36):
have been published in time for,you know, them to receive.
Statements and things mm-hmm.
Are, um, sometimes a little bitdisappointed by, by what they're
getting from their sales, Isuppose.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and how things have beenselling.
Madeleine (22:50):
I mean, uh, for those, um, listeners that don't
know.
Um, so authors receive royaltiesevery six months, I think, isn't
it Tina?
Tina (22:58):
I think
Madeleine (22:58):
so.
The half.
Point of the year and at the endof the year and it captured, I
think there's a three monthdelay as well.
Um, so it would've been salesfrom like September to March, I
think this year.
And then you get paid in June.
And of course, you know, youonly earn royalties if you've
earned out to your advance.
I think we've gone through thisin the money, um, episode about
(23:21):
the difference between advancedand royalties.
And I think, I think perhaps.
The, the visual when you seeeither a$0 royalty statement or
a minus, because the minushappens when bookstores return
books.
'cause they are, they do havesale or return rights and they
can return books.
(23:43):
And that means that, you know,sometimes they can be a minus on
your statement.
And I suppose that is, um, as anauthor quite.
You know, disappointing.
It's always gonna bedisappointing, isn't it?
I think everybody dreams ofearning out, but I think, I
remember seeing a stat from theAustralian Society of Authors
that majority of authorsactually don't earn out.
Tina (24:04):
Mm.
Yes, I've heard that a lot aswell, but, so can you explain
the minus?
So that's not, people don't owethat it's ju No, it's what, it's
just sales figures, I guess.
So, um, yeah, this is myunderstanding, minus the, yeah,
Madeleine (24:18):
I'm probably not the best person to, but my
understanding is that you don'towe the publisher anything, but
you have to earn that moneyback.
Uh, in future statements to, tostart earning again.
And it's only'cause they'vegiven you perhaps your previous
statement.
Um, so yeah, I mean, it'ssomething that I've really
learned recently is that youactually, um, earn royalties
(24:41):
based on the number of salesinto bookstores, not necessarily
books bought by customers.
Oh, and so if those, yeah, whichI didn't know.
No.
And so if those bookstores thensubsequently return.
Tina (24:55):
Oh, of course.
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine (24:57):
That then is taken off your statement.
Tina (24:59):
That's the minus, yeah.
Okay.
Madeleine (25:00):
And publishers do withhold a certain proportion of
your royalties, at leastinitially to cover for that, but
mm-hmm.
Sometimes that can be, um, a bitmore.
So, um, it is, um, you know, I,I suppose authors we put.
We all know we put so much timeand effort into mm-hmm.
Writing these books and I mean,I haven't had a statement yet.
(25:22):
I'll get my first statement atthe end of the year, so I can't
really make any comments.
But, um, like you, Tina Yeah.
I've heard on the grapevine thatit has been, I.
You know, are difficult.
I suppose you, and you thinkabout the, the, the situation as
well with, um, the cost ofliving and mm-hmm.
The cost of books.
And often when cost of living ishigh, books are gonna be the
(25:43):
first things that people willsacrifice.
Tina (25:45):
They're a luxury item.
Be in classes now.
Yeah.
Um, but I think, yeah.
So, and then aside from that,like there's a lot of, or quite
a few publishers that, um, havebeen struggling as well.
There are some that are clo thathave closed.
There are some that are reallylimiting, um, how much they're
producing in a year.
And I think that just makes the,the pool of possibility even
(26:08):
smaller for authors who aretrying to be published, um, and
not just.
Brand new or that aspiringauthors like people who have
already been published beforeand are trying to get another
deal and it's, it's just ashard, um,
Madeleine (26:21):
okay, so this sounds very depressing to everyone now.
So this is the time where weThat's depressing.
Tina (26:28):
Yeah.
Madeleine (26:29):
Don't quit your day job perhaps is, I mean, that's
important.
It's, and that's, that's a term
Tina (26:34):
being like.
Advice though, isn't it?
You can't, you can't.
I think everybody is aware thatyou can't quit your day job.
I mean, one day, hopefully youcan.
Um, and I think that's importantto always, you know, hold onto
to that thought and mm-hmm.
And not get to, but there'salso, um, being realistic I
suppose that comes into it.
But yeah, I'm not trying to bedepressing.
(26:55):
We just thought that it was, um,worth a little mention on the
pub this week because we do feelthat vibe and, um.
It's also like, you know,there's a lot of competitions
that are being drawn at themoment and there's lots of
fellowships that are beingawarded.
It's a busy time for that.
So there's lots of conferenceswhere, you know, with, with
(27:15):
competitions that you know,people just sort of finding out
recently if they've made itthrough or not.
I think it's just that timing ofthat just seems to be a lot.
And so it just feels likethere's a bit of a down vibe at
the moment and rightly so, whenyou've been trying really hard
and, um, yeah, I think we justwanted to acknowledge that and
take a moment to chat about thatbecause, um, yeah, it is
(27:37):
difficult and it always has beendifficult, hasn't it?
And,
Madeleine (27:40):
and I guess though that people aren't alone.
Like if you are feeling thatmm-hmm.
Disappointment or you areexperiencing those rejections
from those fellowships andcompetitions that, you know,
everyone feels this, and I thinkyou are totally validated, and
it's okay to feel that.
Tina (27:57):
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine (27:57):
And you don't always have to say, oh, well, I have to
be grateful for everyopportunity I've had.
Tina (28:02):
Mm.
And
Madeleine (28:03):
I have to, I'm, I'm privileged.
And it's okay to feel prettycrappy, I think for a few days.
I guess then it's up to youthough, if.
How you respond to that.
Um mm-hmm.
If it's going to help, you know,inspire you to keep going and do
better and feel better.
I mean, you know, that's, it's,it's really important.
I actually really liked a post,I'm not sure, I don't think you
(28:26):
saw this one, Tina, but Kylie orwho again is a friend of the
podcast and I actually, I'mpretty sure Kylie o's episode is
out.
Number one, it's, sorry.
It's, it
Tina (28:35):
keeps, it just keeps coming up.
People just keep finding it andplaying it.
So go back and listen to Kylie.
Yours, one of our very firstones, wasn't it?
Madeleine (28:43):
Yeah.
Super, super popular and I thinkit's because Kylie's always been
very, um, honest and sheactually has a newsletter,
Substack that says.
You know, if I'm being honest.
So she's honest about, you know,sorry, is it called,
Tina (28:57):
if I'm being
Madeleine (28:57):
honest, I'm pretty sure Kylie can tell me if that's
wrong.
Um, I'm, I'm hoping she'lllisten.
Um, but yeah, she, she posted uplast week about, um, she
amazingly was long listed forthe Furphy Literary Award, which
is a really tough short storycompetition.
It's one of the biggest major.
Australian competitions.
I think it might be globalactually.
(29:18):
Mm-hmm.
So to be long list is, isincredible.
Yeah.
I think when you get those wins,like you have to sit with that,
but then you always as a, as ahuman, go, well, I wanna be
shortlisted.
And then if you're shortlist,you go, well, I wanna win.
Mm.
Tina (29:31):
Um,
Madeleine (29:31):
so, um, Kylie pressed up that, um, she did not get
shortlisted and feltdisappointment about not being
shortlisted.
Um, and mentioned that she'sbeen.
Um, in the top 20% of Varunafellowships, Varuna being a
really difficult residency toget.
Um, and it's very highlycompetitive.
(29:52):
Mm-hmm.
So to be in the top 20% is alsoincredible.
Um, you know, like that's a win.
But on the flip side, there'sthat disappointment.
And when you're rejected, and Iknow there's a lot of people
who've, who are feeling that'cause Varuna, um, I think
announced their residencies, um,just recently.
But what I loved about Kylie'sPost, and I think this really
resonates, um, with probablylots of authors, is that, you
(30:15):
know, she's, I'm just gonnaquote her here'cause she's
written it, it's perfect.
Um, you know.
Oftentimes she says, I hear no,which stings, but it doesn't
stop me.
Most things you enter, you won'twin, but that doesn't make it a
waste.
Backing yourself matters beingred matters.
I just love that.
(30:36):
No, that's beautiful words.
You're being, you're being seen,you're backing yourself.
Nothing is a waste.
Tina (30:41):
No, no, I agree.
And this thing of, um, being awaste, and I just wanna point
out again, that Kylie's multipublished.
Mm, that's right.
And she's still gettingrejections.
And I think that's important.
And I know it's hard when you'rein the.
Depth of feeling really, um,disappointed in the whole thing
and, and potentially wanting togive up.
But because, you know, I've,I've heard that a bit lately too
about, from authors justthinking, why am I even still
(31:04):
doing it?
Yeah.
And I think, and look, you know,the problem of being
disappointed in this industry, Ithink is, is timeless.
Um, but, and so is the advice Ithink in, in, and so I'm
probably gonna sound like abroken record, but, um,
absolutely.
Just, I think probablyremembering.
Why you started it in the firstplace.
(31:24):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, what are you doing it for?
Um, was it, are you doing it toget a multi-book deal, then
that's absolutely not the rightreasons, and that's not enough
to keep you going.
And maybe you should, you know,we all want multi-book deals
though, but, um.
It, it definitely wasn't forthat.
You, you picked up your pen oryou started typing because you
(31:45):
loved it or you had a story totell and it's, I think it's
just, you know, going back tothose roots maybe.
Yes.
Um, taking that idea of beingsigned off the pedestal.
Do you know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
And just being like, that's notwhy I'm doing it.
I'm doing, again, thinking aboutwhy I started, because I love
it.
And it may take a long time andit may take, you know, all my
(32:07):
efforts or I may decide to evenhave a little break and
reenergize myself on it.
But just, um, yeah, not havingthat as your final goal.
And I liken it to, um, I wastalking to Danny V about this
actually on the podcast justlast week.
I liken.
Writing to, you know, being anartist.
(32:29):
If there's people who paint andthey could paint every day, or
they can paint every weekend, orthere's people who cross stitch,
putting my finger up.
Me, I don't cross stitch so Ican enter some amaze and I don't
really do much of it.
I just wanna point the prefacewith that.
But like, you know, I don't dothat.
I don't do my paint by numbersbecause I want to enter it into
(32:51):
a.
Artist competition and have anexhibition at a famous art
gallery and earn money from it.
I do it because I enjoy it.
Um, you know, and so peoplepaint because they enjoy it.
People, you know, do lots ofcraft because they enjoy it.
They make things because theyenjoy it and they don't have
that big goal.
So we write because we enjoy it,and we're just gonna remember
(33:14):
that and sort of maybe come backto that.
You know, still have that hopeand dream of having that big
goal of being published one dayor getting another deal.
But, um, that's right.
Writing to do it just for the,the love of it, I think.
Madeleine (33:29):
And I think if, um, as authors, I mean all of us.
You and I, both Tina, haveexperienced rejections.
Mm-hmm.
It's just part of the parcel,isn't it?
And if we were to give upbecause of those rejections, we
wouldn't be here right nowhaving Yeah, that's right.
Like it's, it's, but it's reallyhard in the moment.
It's easy for us to say inhindsight, because we can look
(33:51):
back mm-hmm.
And say, well, it was all partof a, a path
Tina (33:55):
mm-hmm.
Madeleine (33:56):
To getting our book deals.
Yeah.
And that's what was happening.
But when you're in the thick ofit, in that sort of.
Yeah.
Full feelings and yeah.
Questioning whether you areyou're any good or if you're, I
think you are exactly right.
Going back to the root andgoing, why am I doing this?
Because, let me ask you, Tina,oh, I'm interested.
If you did not get your dealwith Neeka
Tina (34:21):
and you
Madeleine (34:21):
were still trying and still seeking publication
Tina (34:24):
mm-hmm.
Madeleine (34:25):
Would you keep writing?
Tina (34:26):
Yes.
I would, because I've, and I'vewritten though for a very long
time.
I've written my whole life,really.
I had a big break, you know,when I was at uni I was in my
twenties and stuff, but I havewritten my whole life in some
way or another, and it neverwas.
Because of, to be publishedever.
Mm-hmm.
(34:47):
You know, as a teenager, as a10-year-old, you know, it's, you
don't write because you thinkyou're gonna sell a book.
You just, I literally would sitat a computer at home, um, while
my friends were playing and Iwould write because I enjoyed
it.
Mm-hmm.
And I had a, I had stories in myhead and they just had to come
out.
Um, you know, so Yeah,absolutely I would, because I
(35:09):
actually just thought of it as ahobby.
Madeleine (35:11):
Mm.
Tina (35:12):
I enjoyed doing it.
What about you, Madeleine?
Madeleine (35:15):
Oh, I'd be still writing for sure.
I never thought that I would getpublished.
I just didn't have that conceptas well.
Um, but I suppose having saidall of this though, and I mean,
it, it, I still had some, Istill had hope though, that one
day something might happen.
Yeah.
And that would be, mm-hmm.
Because I still think even.
(35:37):
After getting rejections and,um, you wanna lower your
expectations and you wannaprotect yourself mm-hmm.
From those feelings ofdisappointment.
And, and you can start to say toyourself, well, I'm writing
'cause I love it and I don'thave any expectations of
publication.
I think you still have to havehope though.
Tina (35:54):
You do.
No, you definitely do because Ithink being, feeling hopeless in
this and then you, it absolutelywon't work.
I think you do have to sort ofhave that plan and have that
goal, and I don't know if wewanna touch on some
manifestation here.
Yes.
I maybe everyone that's, that's,I think everybody who's feeling
the disappointment at themoment, maybe go and find the
(36:15):
episode that we did with JaneTara a couple of weeks ago.
It might be a nice littlerecalibration or a new way of
potentially looking at itbecause you do just have, you do
have wants and you have dreams.
And that's a hundred percent andabsolutely, um, imperative, I
think to, to know where youwanna go so you can take the
steps to get there,
Madeleine (36:35):
well, I was gonna say though, Tina, on that, um,
you've reminded me, I mean,while Jane, Ty says, you can
hope and you can man likemanifest and put it on your
vision board.
Mm-hmm.
You still have to take action.
Mm.
Yeah.
And that's key, isn't it?
So it's things like what both ofus have done over the last few
years is get to know theindustry, get build a community
(36:58):
research, understand what a bookdeal is, what it means.
Um, get your name out there.
I guess what Kylie is saying,being read is just as important
as.
Like winning a prize or beingshortlisted or being long
listed, you're being read.
So it is vulnerable putting yourwork out there.
It's awful when you're rejectedfor these types of prizes, but
(37:22):
you're putting your name out andit's just another step.
So, and that goes to what Janewas saying about, yeah, you can
manifest, you can hope, but youstill need to take those
practical steps as well.
Mm-hmm.
Tina (37:33):
Yeah.
And there can be a thousandreasons why it wasn't a yes.
Mm-hmm.
Or why you weren't successful.
Yes.
A thousand reasons.
And sometimes, you know, 999 ofthem had nothing to do with
actually the quality of yourwriting or who you are as an
author.
It's to do with market or it'sto do with.
The number of people thatapplied.
It's to do with how well it fitthe criteria.
(37:54):
There's, there's so much.
So it's, you know, we've saidbefore, it's a numbers game as
well.
Yes.
Yeah.
And just to remember that.
And you know, sometimes it'd behelpful to go and have a little
Google of famous authors whowere rejected multiple times
before they exactly becamebestsellers.
That's also helpful.
I did find out tonight thatthere is, I think it's a
Facebook community that is Yes.
(38:15):
Like the 100 Rejections Club orsomething like that.
So anyone who's had 100rejections or more can can join
this elite.
Facebook club.
So go and have a look for it.
Um, if you haven't had 100reject rejections, make that
your goal.
Make that your goal, and thenyou can become part of this
really awesome group.
Um, and you might
Madeleine (38:34):
get one, one yes as well.
Yeah.
And that, that makes all thedifference.
Tina (38:38):
Or you're improving your writing every single time.
You Exactly.
You're submitting it, so, youknow, and I think everybody
who's listening to the pod,who's who are authors, they know
all these things too.
But sometimes it's a good littlereminder.
Um.
You know, things will ebb andflow and you'll ebb and flow and
your feelings will ebb and flowwith it.
But you know, if you enjoy itand you enjoy the community,
(38:58):
like why would you stop doingthat?
Madeleine (39:00):
Exactly.
The community's the best part.
And that's what I've heard fromsome of our debut crew authors
as well, who've, who've justsaying like, despite all the
perhaps disappointment, um.
The things that have happened tothem this year that haven't gone
great and haven't gone their wayand they've felt a little bit
(39:20):
disappointed.
'cause you know, that's justnatural.
Having the community and findingthe community has been a
surprise and the best part aboutall of this.
Tina (39:29):
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine (39:30):
So if you are feeling that way.
Reach out to your community.
It can be the writing communityor just your friends as well and
family.
Mm-hmm.
Um, and you know, we shouldstart like, I don't know, our
own community book dealcommunity, Tina.
We've, we're thinking about, um,setting up a Patreon in future
and bringing people along whowant a bit of extra book deal.
(39:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Things as well.
And starting a bit of a club totalk with writers about.
Their goals and what they wannado and if it's something that we
can assist with.
So we should think about that.
Tina (40:05):
Yeah, we should do.
We'll, we'll put that back onthe agenda.
Madeleine (40:08):
Zoom with Tina and Madeleine, talk about your book
deal.
Tina (40:11):
Yes.
Tell us your stories, justsuccess stories as well.
So yeah, I think that's.
So that's some, that's, that'smy top tips anyway.
Go away and Google some famousresource that, that got rejected
many times.
Um, but also, yes, justremembering this, this is the
process, isn't it?
And remembering why you love it.
(40:33):
Mm-hmm.
And maybe focus on those things,the community and just the joy
of writing.
Mm-hmm.
Whatever happens, happens.
Madeleine (40:41):
That's right.
And don't feel afraid to share,like Kylie, I think Kylies very
courageous.
Tina (40:46):
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine (40:46):
Don't feel afraid to share that that might actually
be quite cathartic and helpful.
I think that's my top tip.
Tina (40:52):
Yeah.
And helpful for others, not justyourself by sharing it.
Yes.
Madeleine (40:56):
Yes.
I agree.
And because I think everyone'sin this together, and Instagram
often does, is a, it's, it's a.
You know, shows a curatedversion of people's lives and
mm-hmm.
I mean, this is partly why I'mtaking a bit of a break from
Instagram at the moment as well,because, you know, there's a
lot, a lot there and it's, it'squite distracting and, um, and
(41:19):
significant, so.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I think that, um, you know,even though I'm taking a break,
I'm obviously still doing bookdeal.
That's how I saw Kylie's post.
It's priorities.
Gotta keep myself accountable.
Otherwise my husband will belike, what were you doing on
Instagram?
So maybe, and maybe for somepeople it's taking a break from
(41:41):
social media as well.
Tina (41:43):
Yes, yes.
Because it's very hard, it'svery hard to deal with those
feelings of, um, not achievingwhat you want when other people
are posting up all theseincredible things that are
happening to them.
And yeah, like you said, it's,it's.
You dunno what's behind that.
Madeleine (41:59):
That's right.
So maybe that's my top tip then.
Take a break from socials if youfeel like you need it.
Tina (42:04):
Yep.
Madeleine (42:04):
Step away for a few weeks, even a few days.
And just find, go back to whatyou were saying, Tina.
Go.
Go to the root causes.
Like what's driving you towrite, what do you love about
writing?
Mm-hmm.
And get back to that original,authentic self as of yourself as
a writer.
Tina (42:22):
And if you have any tips, anybody who's listening for, um,
our authors that are listeningas well, who are going through
this time, please let us knowhow you have worked through it.
Um, I know we also have lots ofour episodes where we've asked
authors what did they do after arejection?
And I think 99% of the time theysay, yep.
(42:43):
Sit with it for a bit.
Mm-hmm.
Madeleine (42:46):
It happens.
Feel sorry for yourself for abit and then suck it
Tina (42:48):
up and move
Madeleine (42:49):
on.
That's right, that's right.
Yeah, so, exactly, exactly.
On something a bit morepositive, are you reading any
good books at the moment, Tina?
Tina (42:59):
Uh, I've got a few on the go and I'm so conflicted.
Um, and I don't like to have toomany on the go, but I do at the
moment.
But the two that I brought awaywith me camping
Madeleine (43:09):
yes.
Tina (43:10):
Is um.
We saw what you started by CarlaSalmon, which is a ya and I do
love a Good ya.
Um, which is amazing, which onlycame out just the last week or
so and I went to her incrediblebook launch on the Gold Coast,
which was so fun.
Um, and I'm also reading RIPNanny Tobins by our other
(43:33):
lovely, um, debut crew memberLucy Stevens.
Madeleine (43:38):
Oh, yes.
So, and that's really fun.
Tina (43:40):
Yeah, that's a middle grade.
Really fun.
Um, and I'm like, I'm in justkind of halfway through both of
them and trying to, I
Madeleine (43:47):
love, I love that.
Oh, you're balancing both.
Tina (43:50):
Yes.
I'm trying to decide, but I amgoing to interview Carla very
soon for the book deal.
So, um, finish her one first andthen, and then keep going with.
Nanny Tobin, so
Madeleine (43:59):
that's
Tina (44:00):
good.
What about you?
Madeleine (44:01):
Well, we'll stick with the debut theme.
Um, I'm reading Stillwater byTanya Scott, um, which is coming
out at the end of this monthactually.
So I got an early copy of it andoh my gosh, it is amazing.
Mm-hmm.
It's a, it's a thriller, um, setin Melbourne, um, although there
(44:21):
is a bit of a country aspect toit, but it's so funny'cause
Tanya.
I don't, you've met Tanya?
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Lovely.
Sweet.
Mm-hmm.
She's great, kind.
Mm-hmm.
Beautiful human.
Mm-hmm.
She's like, um, a doctor and amedical trainer, and she's so,
so wonderful.
And this book, it's like, it'slike there's like, um.
(44:47):
It's this, this very conflicted,um, morally gray kind of
character, main character.
Luke is his name.
Tanya?
Yeah, I know.
And like he, it's a bit of abadass book.
Like I'm loving it, but I'm alsolike, where is this coming from?
Tanya?
Tina (45:05):
Yeah.
Oh, like mob bosses and guns andall sorts.
I'm Tanya, we're gonna have totalk about this when we see you
next.
Very exciting.
Yeah.
Madeleine (45:13):
I'm definitely, um, very keen to finish.
I'm halfway through and I'm justflying through it, so I think
this is gonna be a big hit,right?
Still water.
Okay.
Tina (45:21):
Give it.
Can you lend it to meafterwards?
Madeleine (45:23):
Yep.
I'll, I'll give it to you whenyou're here in Melbourne.
Okay.
Awesome.
Tina (45:27):
Yes.
Which is soon.
Which is soon.
Actually.
Very soon.
Oh, okay.
Madeleine (45:33):
Well, enjoy.
Don't get murdered, please.
Um, let me know when you'reOkay.
Safely back home and enjoyseeing Neeka and the storm, not
the missing storm.
Um,
Tina (45:44):
it's very present.
Madeleine (45:46):
I'm gonna, actually, I'm going to GIMs tomorrow, so
I'm gonna see if I can find it.
I think I definitely find it,but I'm gonna take some photos
and I'll send it to you.
Aw,
Tina (45:54):
thank you.
Tina Strachan (46:02):
Thank you for listening to the Book Deal
podcast.
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you can receive updates as soonas our new EPS drop and to keep
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