September 1, 2025 • 52 mins
Welcome to the dark side, we have cookies!
Remember when dark romance was about authentic storytelling rather than shock value? In this candid conversation, we examine how a genre we once loved has transformed into what we're calling "fast fashion fiction" – books written primarily to go viral rather than to tell meaningful stories with genuine emotional impact.
The marketing of dark romance has undergone a troubling shift, with trigger warnings now functioning as selling points rather than reader protection tools. "Look how extreme my book is!" has replaced "Here's the compelling story I've crafted." We discuss why this approach reduces complex narratives to mere shock value and why we've become increasingly selective about which dark romances deserve our time.
The conversation extends to practical considerations around trigger warnings: Should they appear at the front of books, potentially spoiling plot points? Or at the back, where readers can actively choose whether to view them? We advocate for a thoughtful middle path that respects both reader safety and storytelling integrity.
Whether you're a longtime dark romance reader frustrated with recent trends or simply curious about how publishing and social media virality intersect, this episode offers an unfiltered look at the state of a complex, evolving genre. Share your thoughts with us – do you agree the genre has become oversaturated, or are you finding hidden gems among the trend-chasers?
Cover Art by: Fabienne and Jordan
Contact email: thebookishhourpod@gmail.com
Intro/Outro music: Season Two: Ramaramaray by Aiyo via Epidemic Sound Season One: Sweet Psycho via TikTok’s Offical Sound Studio on Capcut
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Podcast: @thebookishhourpod
Fabienne: @oxonheart
Jordan: @sipsoffiction
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Jordan (00:08):
welcome to the bookish hour with joran fob.
Oh, silence, silence.
I was like what did she say?
What did she?
Fabienne (00:17):
say, oh no, I didn't say anything.
I have to get back into it.
I haven't like I haven't donethis in a while like podcasting,
because I've been people,people, people won't notice
because there's like a weeklyepisode ever since January, of
course yeah, but I haven't beenactively doing podcasting any
podcasting.
Jordan (00:38):
I think we lucked out granted, this will be in season
two, but I think we lucked outfor March because we decided to
pull literally old episodesbecause they're classics and
having them released in March,which is just so fitting.
And then, but honestly, ithelped us because, like I feel
like we haven't been podcastingbecause you have been super busy
(01:02):
, but like it was perfect timingfor me because I've been kind
of crazy, not in the same wayyou have, unfortunately, but it
like worked out for both of usexactly, but do you want to talk
about the one thing that wasreally fun for you?
Fabienne (01:20):
that was also really a busy period for you?
I don't, I'm being really vague, but because I'm not really
sure if you want to talk abouton a podcast, yes or no well,
okay.
Jordan (01:30):
so I think if people I don't know when episodes are
coming out, but yes, this one, Iwill say I at this point it's
gonna be like over a, but I gotto go to Romantasy Book Con,
which was so freaking fun and Ihad a blast and I got to meet so
(01:54):
many authors that I loved andlove.
So do I obviously.
That was.
That was definitely my goodweek, even though that happened
like two weeks ago at this point.
Fabienne (02:10):
So still counts.
Jordan (02:11):
Still counts.
Yeah, we.
I also have something thathappened a while ago that I just
want to say really quick andthen we'll get into a good week.
So I mean, I had a real goviral.
Well, actually I don't reallyknow what counts it going viral
but I had, like I don't know ifyou remember my little goat reel
.
That was, um, vaguely yes yeah,it was like when life's a
(02:35):
dumpster fire, but I got mysnacky snacks and my smutty smut
to keep me company.
Yes, so that one kind of wentviral, but for whatever you
count as going viral, but like,the highlight of it was, um, you
know how, like when somebodylike reshares, like reels, and
you have like on the top of yourlike where I don't know what
(02:57):
you would call it, but where yougo visit the heart and you can
see all the notifications, andthen there's the circle of
people resharing your stuff.
So I saw that ruby dixonreshared that reel and I was
like, oh, really highlight yeahoh, but that's so cool though
right.
I thought that was so fun so Ihad to share that here.
(03:20):
So it?
Fabienne (03:21):
was it also like, specifically like targeted to
like one of her books, or was itjust like a random coincidence
that she was to reshared it?
Jordan (03:29):
no, I think she just like reshared it, like um
reshared it on her stories rightyeah, so fun I think.
Fabienne (03:36):
I think it's just like the notification center is that
what it's called?
Jordan (03:40):
I mean it makes sense, but I have no idea what it's
called, I think I think it'scalled, I think it's
Notification Center.
Fabienne (03:49):
Yes, yeah, that's actually I'll dive into like my
Goodweek thing, but it'sactually an interesting point
that you're bringing up because,like, what actually does count
as something going viral, like,does it have to have like a 10k
view?
Are we talking like a 10k view?
Are we talking a 100k view?
Does it need to have a resharecount of plus 50?
Jordan (04:11):
Right, I guess I always just thought if you go viral, it
has to hit a million.
So that's why I was like Idon't know, because it didn't
hit a million, so I don't knowif it counts as going viral.
But you know, let me justGoogle what, what?
Because now I'm curious whatview count, what view count on a
(04:36):
reel counts as going viral?
Viral, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Fabienne (04:45):
Oh, I still need to find my going viral, viral,
mm-hmm.
Jordan (04:46):
Generally, a Reel is considered viral when it reaches
at least 100k views, with manyconsidering this as the
benchmark for significantexposure on Instagram Reels.
However, the exact number canvary depending on the size of
your account and how quickly theviews accumulate.
Okay, fair, oh, but then I'dsay, yours definitely had gone
(05:10):
viral.
Yes, but then there's likeanother one.
So how many views areconsidered viral on Reels?
Again, there's no fixed number,but considering Facebook and
Instagram's popularity, anactive user base, plus the
addictive nature of Reelsels,you'll need at least three to
four million views a week toconsider a video viral.
(05:32):
Oh, I don't think I understandwhat you're saying there.
I'm gonna you know, I'm justgonna go with 100k, because then
my reel went viral it did.
Fabienne (05:42):
It did 100k.
Yes, virality, is virality aword or am I making stuff up?
Jordan (05:48):
virality, it sounds english it sounds like like a
word that it sounds likesinglish I don't, I don't think
it is english, sounds like okay,it's fob's language.
Fabienne (06:02):
Okay, you're good, we're good, we're sorry, sorry
it's fob's language, um, so Ilike, um, um, I wish, wow.
I was reached out to by thisnew bookish company that's
actually a dutch-based company.
It's called time to read andthey asked me if I wanted to be
like an ambassador or like aninfluencer of sorts for the
(06:23):
upcoming three months.
And I was like, I was so takenby surprise because I haven't
been so active like on Instagramand you know if I have been
like, if I have been active.
It was more like, you know,like, updates about the house,
um, but they reached out and Isaid I would love to be a part
of this program, because youknow I be a part of this program
(06:47):
, because you know I like tohave, um, I like to, I guess, um
, support companies that arelike dutch grown also, because
you don't really see that oftenum.
But they said, uh, so we knowthat you're like, um, uh, busy
now with, like the moving and,like you know, the um,
renovating the new place.
So we uh will reconvene thisconversation or like, we will
continue this conversation inmarch.
And we did, and I sort of like,subscribed to their program and
(07:10):
so what they called it and, um,I can expect a book that's
catered to my interests in theupcoming week and then I
received a book every like every.
I think two um every well,every month then, because
obviously like a three-monthsort of like collaboration, but
(07:32):
I receive a book each month andI have to review it for them and
then obviously like makecontent for them.
But that's really exciting.
Jordan (07:40):
That is so exciting.
Oh my God, wait.
So are they just a company that, like, sends out books to
people based like?
Did you fill out like a sheetof like what your?
Fabienne (07:50):
interests are yes.
Jordan (07:53):
Wait, I can't wait to see.
You have to send me a pictureof the first book.
Fabienne (07:57):
Like I have to make a few posts about it, like I have
to make a story whenever itarrives.
I have to do like an unboxingtype of video, just like a
review of the book.
You know just little, justlittle snippets, and it's not
even that content heavy in thesense of like what they're
(08:17):
asking in return, but it's alsojust what sounds logic.
You know, like they give you abook, you make content for it,
because that's basically justthe I guess, um, how do you say?
Like the voluta of sorts?
Um, in that sense, but I amreally excited, I indeed had to
fill out a form and, um, thebook that I'm receiving or that
(08:39):
I will receive is a blind date,so it's like wrapped in like a
box and then, like the bookitself is also wrapped in.
I don't know, I'm really I'mreally curious and I'm excited,
and I don't know it gives likethis entire um, I guess nook
here behind me that you see nowalso like a little bit of
purpose, because I can makeInstagram content again for,
(09:00):
like the bookish community andI'm really really so excited.
Jordan (09:03):
I was just gonna.
I was just gonna say are youtrying to get back into like
posting book stuff?
Yeah, that makes me so happy, Imean I loved your like I loved
your content, like the runningand like the home stuff, but
like I'm kind of excited for youto get back into like the
(09:25):
bookish world yeah, I will saythat I like I said, like I said,
I have to really get back intoit.
Fabienne (09:33):
Um, so it won't be like a daily thing but it
doesn't need to be no, but I, Ijust need to say that I now have
time again to just, like, youknow, unwind and just come back
home and relax and not beconstantly thinking of, oh, I
have to fix this for the newplace, because I am in a new
place.
I don't have to order thisbecause you know, um, we're
gonna.
(09:53):
I don't know I have to buybulbs because I need to hang up
some lines.
You know everything,technically speaking um, so I
can just, like, come back fromwork and literally just sit on
the couch and just do nothing.
I didn't have that for the pastcouple of months because you
were so busy.
You know, like sure, thateverything was in order.
It does, but it also and youknow it's fun because you're
(10:14):
working towards something um,that's really, really worth it.
But also, I really just alsowant to enjoy the house, you
know, like to enjoy, like myfree time, like to enjoy.
I saw someone I also postedthis on Instagram, ironically I
saw someone post for real inwhich they said I have become a
(10:35):
homebody, I am just going toenjoy my mortgage and I'm like
you know what?
That's what I'm going to do.
That's what I'm going to do.
Yeah, stay in and yeah.
Jordan (10:45):
And enjoy that shit.
Yes, enjoy that shit now thatyou talk about someone reaching
out to you, I want, yeah,someone reached out to me like
this, like okay, but like Idon't want to say their name
only because I haven't receivedthe product yet, and I want to
Only because I'll tell youafterwards.
But as soon as I receive it andI post about it, then I'll come
(11:07):
back and talk about it, but Iwill say it's a toy brand.
They like reached out to me onInstagram and you know how
sometimes they're like a littlefishy because it will just be
like hi username.
Oh yeah, like sips of fiction.
Fabienne (11:22):
Question marks.
Question mark.
Jordan (11:24):
Yeah.
Or they're like, I've gotten alot that are like oh, we'll give
you a discount to buy our stuff, but then we want you to post
about it.
And I'm like, why would I dothat?
Like, I don't, I don't wantyour stuff to begin with.
If you want to send mesomething, and if I like it,
I'll share it.
Or if we agree to something.
But, like, this company likereached out to me and was like
hey, we love your content, likewe love the spicy books, we
(11:47):
think this toy will be perfectand your book content.
And you see, like, do younotice?
Literally everybody under thesun posts about Balessa.
And it's not Balessa, it's notBalessa.
Oh.
And I'm like, but I'm, Iliterally get nothing.
I'm nothing against people thatpost with the lesson, nothing
(12:08):
against them.
And especially if you'regetting paid for it, like you do
you, you get that.
But I'm like.
I'm like, please stop postingwith Plessa.
I'm like so sick of seeingPlessa, like here, get $10 off
or a free toy.
I'm like, no, I'm not signingup.
God damn it, it's a no for me.
(12:28):
People actually, though, butlike this one is, they don't
want any of that.
It's just like me posting withlike said product and like the
spicy books.
But they said I can collab withthem.
So I'm kind of excited to havelike my like picture or like my
post on their feed.
Yeah, I'm actually so freakingexcited for it to come in and I
(12:53):
can't.
I don't want to really talkabout it here so I have to tell
you about it afterwards, but I'mlike I like can't wait.
Fabienne (13:03):
You can't wait until, like it arrives, you have to
make content for it.
Or you can't wait to.
You can't wait until it arrivesand you have to make content
for it, or you can't wait toarrive and test it out.
Jordan (13:10):
Oh, my gosh.
Honestly, I don't want to saytoo much.
Fabienne (13:19):
No, I get that, but you're already saying way too
much already actually.
Jordan (13:30):
But no one I know is following them, so like I don't
think you would have ever heardof them until like clearly you
know when I like post about it,you'll see like you'll know
company small toy yeah or bigimpact?
No, I'm just kidding, I don'tknow, so I need to just wait for
it to come in, I'll have tolike tell okay, I'm gonna leave
it at that, and you know thatonce I post about it I
(13:52):
definitely will come on here andtalk about it more.
But it's just like it's weirdthat I'm excited for you too,
like, uh, like a second handtype of like excitement I think
I'm like actually so excitedjust because, like this is
something like I haven't hadanybody like reach out to me
(14:16):
outside of like the book world.
Like people are like hey, Iwant to send you my book or a
free book, or like whatnot butlike this is like the first time
someone's actually.
Well, no, I did do a coffeebrand but that coffee or a free
book or like whatnot.
But like this is like the firsttime someone's actually.
Fabienne (14:27):
Well, no, I did do a coffee brand, but that coffee
was shit.
I was just about to say like,wasn't that like with mushrooms
or something like a mushroomtype of coffee?
Oh shit.
Jordan (14:34):
No that that coffee was good.
I got like a different coffee,like Javi, javi, and that was
shit.
Yes, oh, but right, yes, oh,but the mushroom coffee was good
.
They, they, they were cool.
They were cool and they didn'texpect any content.
Where javi wanted content, themushroom coffee was like hey, we
just want to send this to youfor free, like sure thing and I
was like okay, um, but this oneokay.
(14:58):
So then, aside from those likethis is like the first one, that
was like I want to send youthis, like package.
Fabienne (15:08):
Sorry, yes, yes, okay, so, and interesting,
interesting, yes, yes, I wouldlike a fully detailed review.
Jordan (15:21):
A fully detailed report once received.
I'm like I I can't I got.
I'll have to tell youafterwards because there's so
many things I want to say, butthen I feel like it's giving it
too much away and I don't know Iget that no I'm gonna wait oh,
I get that okay I get that doyou have anything else?
Fabienne (15:39):
fab.
Uh, no, no, I think we shoulduh dive, right into it I mean
that, do a deep dive into darkromance.
Yeah, I'm yeah, I actually thatwas sort of I wanted to find
like a segue, because I alwaystry to find one, but better way
to do it?
(15:59):
From toys to dark deep dive,never mind.
Yes, dark romance, deep dive.
Um, I will say that I did notdo any homework, so I'm just
gonna do it all from the top ofmy head yes, I think.
Jordan (16:16):
No, I like well, so like , the reason why I wanted to
talk about this was actuallybecause I've noticed some people
like sharing reels.
At this point it's been like amonth or so since people have
been sharing reels, but I feellike it's still very much
pertains to even now and I'velike talked about it like with
different people in like thiscommunity about like dark
(16:36):
romance as a whole.
I think, because dark romancehas grown so much, especially
with like dark romantic comediesand things like that, that I
hate.
Like the one of the big thingsI hate is that dark romance is
now being marketed through theirtrigger warnings, and that's
like the one of the one, one oflike the first things I wanted
(16:58):
to bring up with you is like,what are your thoughts on dark
romance being marketed throughits trigger warnings in the book
?
Like oh, look, here is twopages worth of trigger warnings.
Fabienne (17:12):
You should read my book um, I think a trigger
warning is exactly what it is.
It's a trigger warning and itshould not be seen as a guide as
to why someone should read abook.
I understand why it's, you know, like put up front, um, as like
(17:35):
an ingredient of sorts, likeoff the book, like, hey, this
happens in my book.
Um, you decide whether you wantto read it or not.
I think that's like an entirelydifferent approach already, as
is, but no, I think it's a weird, weird marketing strategy to do
that.
I would say just keep you know,like stick to the tropes.
(17:57):
Stick to, maybe.
Well, the thing is now that I'mthinking thinking about it too
like what do people now consider?
Like where do people draw theline like what is a trigger
warning and what to considerlike trope, like a trigger
warning could also.
(18:17):
I will say that.
I will say this, though atrigger warning could also be
seen as a trope, or vice versa.
But to have like an entire listof things that are triggering,
that are actually like mentally,physically triggering to some
people, um, that is like adifferent list.
Jordan (18:34):
You should not use that as a marketing trick no, I don't
think if you have it on thetrigger warning page.
This is my thoughts.
I think whatever you have onthe trigger warning page should
not be used as a marketing ployand I think but those are like
the, like a trigger warning.
I feel like the point of atrigger warning is for the
(18:56):
reader to know what is in thebook.
Maybe this is not the book foryou if you will be triggered by
it, like, and I think I think,like like the big, I mean like
anything that's like here's atrigger warning, but like
anything that has rape or sexualassault or non-consensual
(19:18):
intimate moments, like there's,like those things I think should
be listed in a trigger warningand that should be available to
the reader to know if it'ssomething that they should read.
But I feel like a lot of people, I think, especially in the
dark romance world, they do wantbooks that have that, and I
(19:42):
think it's just gotten gottenand I think it's just gotten,
it's just been I don't know howto word it but I think authors
have realized that people arereading books because it has X,
y and Z.
So now they think that theyshould market the book that way,
(20:09):
which I don feel that theyshould, but those are my own
personal thoughts and I alsohave, like, different thoughts
on like.
Do you think a trigger warningpage should be at the front of a
book?
Fabienne (20:20):
oh, I was waiting for like the or segment.
The thing is I don't readtrigger warnings because I have
the privilege of not, of likenot.
You know Having any yeah orlike not.
I don't want to say that.
But obviously, but I skipmostly oh wait, it's not making
(21:01):
it no wait, I'm not making anysense.
I actually I I think like fromuh, objective type of standpoint
, I would say, yes, put it up atthe front.
Or like have a page where youdedicate, or like explain
something to your possiblereader and say, if you don't
want to be, but then again,there you go, like if you don't
(21:22):
want to be spoiled, some peoplelike put like qr codes like on
their page and then you have toscan it.
Then it links you back to awebsite well.
Jordan (21:29):
So what I think is I?
Because I agree with you,because I think sometimes
trigger warnings can be aspoiler in a way for certain
like certain trigger warnings,so I can understand why some
people might not want a triggerwarning.
I tend to it's like it's weird.
I don't.
(21:51):
I haven't been reading anythingsuper dark, so I know anything
that I pick up isn't going tohave anything that maybe
something that I can't handle.
Trigger wise, um, but I don'tnecessarily love it in the
beginning of the book.
I do think it should still bein the book and I but I think it
should be in the back beinglike I have, like the author has
(22:12):
, should have a note being likeI have a list of triggers.
It's in the back of the book,so please flip to the back if
you want to read that list.
Otherwise, please continue.
Fabienne (22:23):
But like, just like note that it is there in the
book, because I have seen peoplemention that, so you don't like
wait, quick question so youdon't like accidentally skip
over it or like skim over it ifit's on the same page as that
same explanation well, I, in thesense I agree with you.
Jordan (22:44):
Like I, I don't want it in the beginning, because I
don't want it to necessarilyspoil something for me, because
I have seen trigger warningsthat have essentially spoiled
the book for me, which I mean Istill open the book and read it.
I mean I still read the bookand it's like whatever, but I
almost wish that the triggerwarning was in the back so I
couldn't have accidentally readit.
(23:10):
Yeah, but it's still there forease Cause.
Like I don't.
I don't totally love the ideaof the QR code to a website or
to go check out my website.
I think it should be a littlebit more available to the reader
, especially if it's like a bookthat you would buy in a
bookstore too.
Like I think the reader shouldbe able to just like check out
the first few pages Okay, seethat it's in in the back, and
(23:33):
then can look in the back to seeif the book is for them or not.
But I don't think it.
That's why I don't think a bookshould be marketed by its
trigger warnings.
I don't think, and usually Idon't know like I feel like the
main triggers should just be thewhat is in the back of the book
.
But like, like even amiscarriage, or like the loss of
(23:56):
, like a pregnancy loss, like Ithink that can be a very heavy
trigger.
So like that should bedefinitely something, but like
that's also that could be aspoiler, especially if it's not
a surprise pregnancy like I.
Like I can see that being aspoiler in a book if it's you
don't know that the person'sgoing to be pregnant, so like
those sort of things.
But I definitely think that issomething that should be a
(24:17):
trigger in a trigger warning inthe book, so like.
But again, I think it should beat the end, because it's like
like that, that wouldn't be likea trigger for me, but like
someone that's trying to getpregnant that's had a bunch of
miscarriages, that could be atrigger for them.
So I think there is like.
I think it like should behandled like in a maybe a
(24:44):
different way well moredelicately, that's yeah for
starters.
Fabienne (24:49):
That's one for starters yeah also it shouldn't
be.
I also feel more like if youhave I also sometimes see like
trigger warnings and then youhave like bullet lists, like
bullet points, like it's listed,I would say people consider
that more tropes and people likethe authors, like editors or
(25:10):
whatever, who decided to have itlike in that format in their
book, whether it's like, um,when people add it to the book
in a like, a like, like listed,then I'd say the approach from
the author standpoint used astropes.
But if you have a more writtenout page where it's like I don't
(25:35):
want to say dedication becausethat's not the right word, but
like an explanation of source,like okay, this is a trigger
warning this book can take likeheavy themes such as explanation
of sorts, like okay, this is atrigger warning this book
contains.
Like heavy themes such asumbrella terms you know yeah,
exactly, then I feel it's morerespectfully done too, and not
so as in like thrown in there ashey.
This book contains y and z, andthis is why you should not, or
(25:55):
should, read it.
It's, I don't know, it's.
It's an interesting pointactually that I don't know.
I want to say something.
Jordan (26:13):
I lost it.
Next point, which we can likedive all around, was because I
feel like these trigger warningsare what authors are using to
market their book.
Being like this is what my darkromance has and it's like
da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
Here's a list of it.
(26:34):
I feel like people have talkedabout books going viral as we
talk about viral in ourintroduction, but I think the
books that are going viral arethese books that are being
marketed for trigger warningsLike oh, you love non-consensual
(26:56):
, intimate scenes, like okay,here we go, and that's just one.
But I do think non-consensualneeds to be a trigger warning.
I just don't think you shouldmarket your book that way.
But I also feel like they putin a ton, a ton more trigger
warnings that I don't thinkshould be listed as trigger
(27:17):
warnings.
But those seem to be the booksthat go viral, but they're not
like that great.
I don't know how to word this.
I feel like authors just wantto go viral so they can sell
books, and I understand that.
Like authors write books tosell them because it's their
business and they need to makemoney.
(27:37):
They're kind of like how weneed to make money too, but I I
hate that.
I feel like every author's goalnow is to go viral instead of
just writing a good book.
Yeah, we're, but I alsounderstand like, and maybe those
(28:00):
books.
Fabienne (28:01):
Following up question that just okay, it's like
popping up in my head right now.
Do you think, because peoplewant to go viral, people really
want to make it like you know,they want to be um, they want to
be like the next brin weaver.
Jordan (28:16):
Like how butcher and blackbird went, bird went viral
you know what I mean, so I thinklike are these?
Fabienne (28:25):
this is obviously like it's not even.
Ah christ, how do I wear this?
Jordan (28:29):
it's like this is actually too much like a bitch
um no, let's, let's let you know.
Remember, we started thispodcast knowing that we're not
true, we're not making friendsno, true.
Fabienne (28:41):
And we also like uploaded uh, too long ago.
Why we hate the books that we,you know, like the unpopular
opinion, the ones I knowremember how.
Jordan (28:50):
So I actually made sorry side note.
I made a note in that episodeat the bottom being like this
because I I forgot that theintro is basically us talking
about holidays so so I had toput a note being like this
episode came from the previouspodcast because we never edited
it out.
But I was like, oh, this worksso that way for future episodes.
(29:10):
It like fits.
But I went with that, went withthat title, just because I
thought that title would pullthe most traction, because I was
gonna remember the first timewe released it it was unpopular
opinions.
But I thought that title wouldpull the most traction Because I
was going to remember the firsttime we released it it was
unpopular opinions, but I thinkthat was like too nice.
So I was like people are goingto want to know like what books
(29:32):
did we hate?
Yeah, so like I went with sorry, but no no.
Okay, what were you talkingabout before that?
Fabienne (29:41):
Girl?
I have no idea.
No, I do know.
Okay, then what were youtalking about before that girl?
I have no idea.
No, but like they, um no, itwas, it was more because also
just dark romance as a genre.
I feel like and I think that wehave talked about this no, I
definitely know that we havetalked about this before too
like because everyone thinksthey can write dark romance
because of all the tropes,because of all the trigger
warnings.
But hey, you can, you can writeit, I can write it, you know
(30:02):
what, sure, you be creative.
Sorry, but like the entiregenre is so like over- Saturated
now Saturated.
Yes, yes.
Jordan (30:13):
Like I think, I think, but I think it's because so I
remember like over ten years agono, no, no, ten years ago, no,
no, no, 10 years ago, nine yearsago like I was like dark
romance wasn't a thing.
But I know I read books thatwere dark romance because I
remember, like I picked up myfirst ammo jones book oh, yep
(30:33):
like back in, like 2016, andyeah, I loved her books, but you
didn't know it was dark romancethen.
But you're reading, like,looking back, I'm like, oh, yeah
, that was definitely darkromance, but I liked it better
then and then I would.
I I feel like people weren'twriting books to go viral, they
(30:57):
were just writing books thatthey wanted to write, or because
I do think there is like.
I do think that outside of darkromance, there is that cookie
cutter romance that everybodywants, like it follows the same
same, like yes, where it's likemain characters meet, they fall,
(31:17):
they like get together, there'ssome type of conflict, they
fall in love the end, and Ithink there are people out there
that want that.
So I think those authors justneed to find their readers.
But I feel like dark romancedoesn't necessarily always have
to have that cookie cutterrecipe definitely not.
(31:42):
I think that's what, what setsthe genre apart yeah, but I
think that's like where the likestruggle like kind of comes
from, because I think theeverybody that comes into it,
whether they're the cookiecutter ones or not, don't really
know where the dark romancegenre is in, like their mind.
(32:05):
I don't know how this is likenot coming out how I want to say
it.
Fabienne (32:09):
Take your time.
We have an hour, as the titleof this podcast suggests.
Jordan (32:15):
That is true, that is true.
But I just think that, like, Idon't even know.
I don't even know, but I justhate where.
I hate where the dark romancegenre has gone to.
I hate where we're at right nowin dark romance.
(32:37):
I don't like, I'm veryselective.
I actually I had a conversationwith my best friend this like
past weekend when I saw her, butI told her that I don't really
read dark romance anymore.
But I know too that like thereason why we like started this
whole podcast which we've talkedabout so much.
But I think we just the darkromance genre because it's
(32:59):
gotten so big.
And I think we just the darkromance genre because it's
gotten so big and I think itdefinitely got really big during
like quarantine and all that asbooks just got big in general.
But I think they they're justnot the same.
I think people are trying towrite dark romance to go viral
to they all like, instead ofthey all want to cross this line
(33:24):
, to like the extreme and wejust like read it and we're like
, what the fuck did we just readlike.
I think that's like a very bigthing, which comes back to like
why authors are marketing theirdark romances through the
trigger warnings because like ohlike, see all the shit that
happens in my book, which Ithink, in a way, what you're
(33:45):
saying is trope wise, like youcan't fit all those tropes into
one book without it beinggarbage and everybody wanting it
to go viral.
Like people are writing thesedark romances almost like it's
like fast fashion.
You're just picking it up toconsume it, to throw it away.
Fabienne (34:03):
I think that's exactly where most of these books go
wrong.
They're just writing thesebooks for the sake of selling it
.
You got to earn your money, yougot to make your bread.
You got to get food on thetable.
I get that, but it's also ifyou write a story, make sure
it's good.
Jordan (34:26):
It's so tough because I remember going.
I okay.
So I went to a conference along time ago for writers and
I'm not going to dive into why Iwas at that conference, but I
was um, we will dive into itwith me after.
Yes, I will, but there were.
The opening presentation wasbasically like you need to
(34:49):
figure out what kind of writeryou're going to be, and there
were three points you write whatyou want to write, so you write
the story that you want to tell, want to tell.
Then there was you write forbusiness, so you're writing to
(35:09):
make money.
And then she mentionedsomething else that I can't
remember, but I think the firsttwo it's almost like kind of
like where these authors arelike they're writing to make
money but it's like writing togo viral so they make a lot of
money.
But I feel like as a reader, Idon't want that.
Like I don't want that viralbook.
Like I want a book that is likeso good that I like scream from
(35:30):
the rooftops.
And if it just happens to besomething that's gone viral in
the sense of like, I'm thinkingof like fantasy, sarah j maas
those books are so good, like nowonder people are talking about
them and they've gone viral.
But that's because the story'sso good, not just viral because
of some spicy quote that theauthor posted or somebody, some
(35:51):
influencer posted.
And now you have to like readthis dark romance where I feel
like a lot of these, likecontemporary, not dark romances
don't necessarily go viral.
I mean, I guess some, no, Ithink it's really just like the
dark romance genre.
And then there are contemporaryromances that, like the authors
, are just big, like I'mthinking, well, I won't dive
(36:13):
into any names.
But there are contemporaryromances that are just like
bigger authors but, I think,like a specific dark romance,
like book, these authors aretrying to get their book to go
viral yeah, have you evernoticed that it's also mostly
the same type of person whowrites these books?
(36:34):
what do you mean by that?
Fabienne (36:37):
I actually can't say this on the podcast.
I actually can't say this onthe podcast.
So I'm not talking about, like,hirama Jones, I'm not talking
about your KV Rose Montage, youknow.
I'm just talking about theoversaturated books, like like I
just mentioned, like the peoplewho are writing the books
(36:58):
because they think they canwrite it.
Jordan (37:01):
And yeah, I can, can't, I cannot say this on the podcast
okay, fair, fair, but I have,but it's, it's the same type of
people.
I feel like there's adifference too.
I think there's a differencebetween, like the good stories
(37:23):
or the authors that you knowthey had a story in mind and
here it is, but then there's,it's okay, it's.
This is for the authors thatnotice a trend and then they try
to just write that trend,whether it's like stalkers,
stalker romances, dark romances,like all of these things that
(37:46):
are just like get hot for asecond.
Authors try to jump on thattrend and then they like,
essentially, I think flop,because it's exactly what I was
saying before it's fast fashion.
So when you try to jump on,when the trend goes up, like the
trend's already going down bythe time you get the book out,
so like you've missed youropportunity, because it's like
(38:08):
gone, like I don't see any darkcowboy romances anymore because
I think the trend is fastfashion.
Except I do think there's likethe authors that started.
So I think, like pam goodwin's,I think I actually it nodded, I
think it's the first one, butI've heard, but, like I think,
pam goodwin's an amazing writer,so I think these amazing
(38:31):
writers start the trend and thenit's all these other people
that follow it.
That exactly, and I think thatexactly.
And I think it kind of, insteadof like writing their own story
, they're trying to hop on to atrend that's already come and
gone by the time they get theirbook out.
(38:52):
Mm, hmm, so is this where Ishould tell you I'm writing a
dark romance?
I'm just kidding.
Fabienne (39:02):
And I'm going to log off a dark romance.
I'm just kidding and I'm gonnalog off yeah, no, just kidding
if you are, you do you.
But if you are making yourtrigger warnings a trope list, I
know where you live, I knowyour address so I'll, I'll come
find you yeah, please do,because I think I I can't.
Jordan (39:21):
No, absolutely not.
It's so tough because I feellike some of these authors, they
just they are like I do agree,like there should be no kink
shaming, like don't yuck someoneelse's yum and whatnot, but
like no, I feel like there'salso like there's also like a
vague border, like there is aline there, some things you
(39:43):
should keep to yourself, somethings should just not be
written.
Fabienne (39:46):
You shouldn't be writing it just for the sake of
writing it, because you're sortof vague.
Jordan (39:50):
Yes, and then I think it's like these people are
trying to cross this like line,but they're like crossing way
over, not like towing it,they're like crossing way over
it.
They're like crossing way over,not like towing it, they're
like crossing way over it, butlike.
These are the people that aretrying to get their book to go
viral instead of just writingthe story that, like, they want
to write.
I think that's the tough partfor us, because I feel like
(40:14):
there's probably people outthere that want that story
that's gone viral.
They want to read that story.
I think we're just at the stagewe're at and we just want a
good fucking story.
Like we want a story thatauthors want to tell and like I
think, and and in a way, genuinestories, the authentic ones yes
(40:35):
, and in a way I think we cantell the difference between the
author that is just trying to goviral and then the author
that's telling the story thatthey want to tell yeah yeah, and
that's where it's at.
I'm like thinking like peoplespecifically, but I don't want
to say like their names rightnow, but like I I've like even
(40:57):
just like the people that liketheir story is like the story
they want to tell do you have adark romance book that you think
was really shitty because ofall these, uh, all of these
things that we just talked about?
I'm like thinking of one.
(41:18):
It was like a dark cowboy likeI had.
It was like okay and I had agood like I read it.
It did become repetitive, butit was like one of those ones
that I was like it's nothorrible, but what it's not?
It was not good but I, I did.
I it got to the point it wasdefinitely more erotica.
(41:38):
So like I definitely started,ended up skimming it.
I didn't know it was going tobe erotica when I like started
it and then I mean I should haveknown by like chapter three,
there was like spicy scenes,whatever but I still like.
Fabienne (41:50):
Was it not in a trigger warnings by any chance?
Jordan (41:54):
no, but they definitely.
She definitely markets throughtrigger warnings, and I don't
want to say it on here but I'll.
I mean I'm sure you can kind ofguess, like so I'm gonna be the
only bitchy person on thispodcast today.
Thanks, it's fine it's fine I'lltake one for the team but I
feel like I mean, when I read it, I like I guess I was in the
(42:17):
mood for it, I don't know, it'sjust.
I finished it being like okay,this definitely seemed like a
book that was like trying to goviral, and I think she's like
one of the ones that did goviral, like she wrote like a cow
.
She was like, I mean pam goodwingodwin I don't, actually don't
know her name godwin, yeahgodwin okay, like I think she's
the one that started dark cowboyromances, which I kind of want
(42:38):
to read that.
Maybe not right now, but like Ithink her is like kind of what
like started it, but like Ithink hers is super old like she
started it, like withoutrealizing she started it like I
feel like I need to figure out,but this one that I read had
just maybe been out for a couplemonths, so it was definitely
(42:59):
one that was like happening,happening, happening on the
trend.
Fabienne (43:04):
Yes, see, there it goes again.
The trend is actually not agood thing.
Um wait, we also.
No, not not we.
You actually mentioned how darkromance has like been on the
(43:25):
rise, so to say, like the pastfew years, especially during the
quarantine um days.
Why do we think that is?
Why was dark romance so up andcoming then?
Jordan (43:38):
I don't.
I think it's honestly.
I think it's more so becausethe I think it's the same thing
of like why Romantasy grew.
I think just so many peoplewere reading during quarantine
that it was more than just likewhat was available in like a
bookstore.
Like self-published authors andindie authors were big before
(44:00):
because I read them before, yeah, but I think it was definitely
more of your contemporary,lighter romances, where I think
some people did write darkromance but was not marketed as
dark romance but like, lookingback, I could see them as dark
romances, but I think becausethey weren't big.
(44:21):
But then, as people are reading, they're like testing their
boundaries and I think they'rediving into like darker things.
Now they're liking those typeof things.
Authors are seeing that and Ifeel like we saw so many like
readers become authors and Ithink which I think is awesome I
don't think anybody.
I think if you want to write abook, you should write a fucking
(44:42):
book Like you get you writethat goddamn book.
Am I going to read it Depends.
Is it a book that you wanted towrite or is it a book you're
trying to go viral?
But I think it just.
I think everything blew up inthe book world when COVID and
quarantine happened just becausenobody had anything to do
(45:02):
besides watch TV, read.
So I think like that kind ofstarted it all because even like
I feel like romanticism grew tolike a crazy amount that I
think massively but I do thinkit's becoming oversaturated too,
like that's in its own thing.
Fabienne (45:22):
I agree.
Different discussion, differentepisode, yes yes, so yeah
that's how I feel.
So back to the first questionat hand.
Do we think that triggerwarnings should be used as a
selling point?
No, should they be in the front?
No, should they be in the back?
(45:43):
Yes, yes, I do.
Jordan (45:45):
I do think they should be in the book.
I don't think they should likebe something that you should
have to go to a website.
I think they should still be inthe book.
I just think they should be inthe back.
So if you don't want to bespoiled, you can not be spoiled,
but if you're someone that likewants to know, you can actively
go to the back of the book andsee it.
Fabienne (46:05):
That's me.
Just make a note of it, like inyour author's note.
Jordan (46:07):
You know, like that this is an X Y C book and if you
know, like, make it like eithertriggers yeah, like, right
before the dedication, rightafter the dedication, authors
know like, hey, this bookcontains heavy themes.
If you want to see the fulllist, head to the back of the
book.
If you're one that you wouldfeel that it's a spoiler, then
(46:33):
please continue on, but justknow that there are triggers to
this book, and I think that'sall you need to say.
So then let the reader decideif that's something that they
want to and I don't.
And like, on that note, if youdid not look at the trigger list
and then you rate a book onestar because it has, let's say,
something that you're not okaywith, I don't think you should
(46:54):
be rating that book because youdidn't look to see that it has a
trigger warning of xyz, like Ithink that.
But that's also somethingcompletely different like, like,
let's say, the book has, like,rape in it.
Is it different?
or just like plain stupid like,oh, like I don't, but yeah not
(47:15):
you not you, no, no, I'm sayingthat the person that picks up a
book and reads a book and ratesit two stars because there's
rape in it, I think that's notOK, because you should have seen
that there was a triggerwarning that said that had rape
in this book.
So I know I agree.
Fabienne (47:33):
Oh no, I agree.
I just meant to say that, ifyou like and it didn't, didn't
didn't come out right.
Bottom line here is that thisperson who is reviewing that
based on not having read thetrigger warnings, but saying
that it was stupid because of atrigger that they did not read,
(47:54):
then they're just plain stupid.
Jordan (47:56):
Oh, agreed, but I think, if, if I think you should not
be rating rating it, then Ithink you should be Saying that
the book wasn't for you andleave it unrated, because I
think you're pulling down theauthor's rating based on
something that you should haveknown before you went into the
book.
Fabienne (48:16):
Yeah, I agree.
Jordan (48:29):
I agree, cool into the book?
Yeah, I agree, I agree, cool,cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.
Yeah, but I think, well, well,okay, so do you find yourself
like, will you, can, I know likewe kind of stepped out of dark
romance, but do you think youwould continue reading dark
romance, just like you're kindof picking and choosing which
books you want to read?
Fabienne (48:45):
Yes, but I'm highly selective.
Like I will stick to my safedark romance author.
Like the ones you know, yeah,yeah, because I know that I
won't be disappointed.
I know where their heart saidwhen it comes to their stories.
They're like genuine, authenticstories.
They take into account thetrigger warnings as actual
(49:08):
things, as yep, um.
They're not all over the toptropes, they're just like your
general dark romance tropes,because what makes a dark
romance is x, y and z, and thoseare the tropes.
Um, I, if I find another bookthat looks interesting to me and
it says that is like that it isa darker type of romance, or,
(49:30):
like you know, with the darkthemes, I will do my research
first.
Definitely, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So no, I definitely will readit still and I and I actually um
, but just very more.
Jordan (49:48):
I almost want to say meticulously, um, but it's more
like I am doing it yeah, I feellike I'm more inclined to pick
up a dark romance, especially ifit's older, from a new author.
To me, like looking at that PamGoodwin one, the Dark Cowboy,
like that first book released in2018.
(50:09):
So it's like I feel like that'sbefore the dark romance genre
really took off.
But I think also Pam Goodwin isjust like an amazing writer, so
I think that's different.
Fabienne (50:19):
Oh yeah, she's good.
Jordan (50:20):
She's so good.
So I think I'm like but there'sa couple dark romances that I
think are older that I want toread.
But I've never read that likeauthor before, but I have been
seen.
I have seen Insatiable by LeeRivers.
I think she's kind of onethat's been like blowing up and
I started reading insatiable.
(50:41):
I'm not too far but I've kindof like put it down and picked
it up.
I'm like I don't know how Ifeel about it, but I'm not.
It's definitely a dark romancebut it doesn't seem to be one.
That's like she's marketing itbased off trigger warnings.
Um, and it seems to be more ofa story than um then are more of
(51:03):
a story she wanted to tell yeah, so sorry for that.
Leo wants to tell yeah, um,just like one that's trying to
go viral we should.
Fabienne (51:20):
We could make a 2.0 type of episode based off like
based off this one where we willdiscuss like older dark romance
books that don't reallycirculate now in like the pool,
you know, like the current poolum, and like revive those
stories that should get moreattention, as opposed to all the
(51:40):
things that just like sproutingout of the ground right now I'm
kind of here for that so staytuned.
Jordan (51:48):
No kidding, we still have to record that episode um
yeah, but but maybe that'ssomething coming um, I'm gonna
write it down in the notes Ilike it, but do you have
anything else for this deep diveinto dark romance?
Fabienne (52:06):
actually no, I think I said everything that I wanted.
I think I said everythingpeople are not canceling me
after having an opinion.
Jordan (52:16):
I don't think they should, but I really never know
I still like you.
Fabienne (52:21):
I hope you still like me.
No kidding, well, no, notkidding, but I yeah, sort of um,
I should just stop talking Istill like you.
Thank you I still, like you too, I don't know where the next
step from.
Jordan (52:37):
I don't know either, but I like it.
Fabienne (52:40):
Okay, wait, wait, bye.
Thank you so much for listening.
Jordan (52:45):
And please don't forget to rate and review wherever you
can find us.
Fabienne (52:49):
So catch you next time .
Jordan (52:51):
Bye.
welcome to the bookish hour with joran fob.
Oh, silence, silence.
I was like what did she say?
What did she?
Fabienne (00:17):
say, oh no, I didn't say anything.
I have to get back into it.
I haven't like I haven't donethis in a while like podcasting,
because I've been people,people, people won't notice
because there's like a weeklyepisode ever since January, of
course yeah, but I haven't beenactively doing podcasting any
podcasting.
Jordan (00:38):
I think we lucked out granted, this will be in season
two, but I think we lucked outfor March because we decided to
pull literally old episodesbecause they're classics and
having them released in March,which is just so fitting.
And then, but honestly, ithelped us because, like I feel
like we haven't been podcastingbecause you have been super busy
(01:02):
, but like it was perfect timingfor me because I've been kind
of crazy, not in the same wayyou have, unfortunately, but it
like worked out for both of usexactly, but do you want to talk
about the one thing that wasreally fun for you?
Fabienne (01:20):
that was also really a busy period for you?
I don't, I'm being really vague, but because I'm not really
sure if you want to talk abouton a podcast, yes or no well,
okay.
Jordan (01:30):
so I think if people I don't know when episodes are
coming out, but yes, this one, Iwill say I at this point it's
gonna be like over a, but I gotto go to Romantasy Book Con,
which was so freaking fun and Ihad a blast and I got to meet so
(01:54):
many authors that I loved andlove.
So do I obviously.
That was.
That was definitely my goodweek, even though that happened
like two weeks ago at this point.
Fabienne (02:10):
So still counts.
Jordan (02:11):
Still counts.
Yeah, we.
I also have something thathappened a while ago that I just
want to say really quick andthen we'll get into a good week.
So I mean, I had a real goviral.
Well, actually I don't reallyknow what counts it going viral
but I had, like I don't know ifyou remember my little goat reel
.
That was, um, vaguely yes yeah,it was like when life's a
(02:35):
dumpster fire, but I got mysnacky snacks and my smutty smut
to keep me company.
Yes, so that one kind of wentviral, but for whatever you
count as going viral, but like,the highlight of it was, um, you
know how, like when somebodylike reshares, like reels, and
you have like on the top of yourlike where I don't know what
(02:57):
you would call it, but where yougo visit the heart and you can
see all the notifications, andthen there's the circle of
people resharing your stuff.
So I saw that ruby dixonreshared that reel and I was
like, oh, really highlight yeahoh, but that's so cool though
right.
I thought that was so fun so Ihad to share that here.
(03:20):
So it?
Fabienne (03:21):
was it also like, specifically like targeted to
like one of her books, or was itjust like a random coincidence
that she was to reshared it?
Jordan (03:29):
no, I think she just like reshared it, like um
reshared it on her stories rightyeah, so fun I think.
Fabienne (03:36):
I think it's just like the notification center is that
what it's called?
Jordan (03:40):
I mean it makes sense, but I have no idea what it's
called, I think I think it'scalled, I think it's
Notification Center.
Fabienne (03:49):
Yes, yeah, that's actually I'll dive into like my
Goodweek thing, but it'sactually an interesting point
that you're bringing up because,like, what actually does count
as something going viral, like,does it have to have like a 10k
view?
Are we talking like a 10k view?
Are we talking a 100k view?
Does it need to have a resharecount of plus 50?
Jordan (04:11):
Right, I guess I always just thought if you go viral, it
has to hit a million.
So that's why I was like Idon't know, because it didn't
hit a million, so I don't knowif it counts as going viral.
But you know, let me justGoogle what, what?
Because now I'm curious whatview count, what view count on a
(04:36):
reel counts as going viral?
Viral, mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Fabienne (04:45):
Oh, I still need to find my going viral, viral,
mm-hmm.
Jordan (04:46):
Generally, a Reel is considered viral when it reaches
at least 100k views, with manyconsidering this as the
benchmark for significantexposure on Instagram Reels.
However, the exact number canvary depending on the size of
your account and how quickly theviews accumulate.
Okay, fair, oh, but then I'dsay, yours definitely had gone
(05:10):
viral.
Yes, but then there's likeanother one.
So how many views areconsidered viral on Reels?
Again, there's no fixed number,but considering Facebook and
Instagram's popularity, anactive user base, plus the
addictive nature of Reelsels,you'll need at least three to
four million views a week toconsider a video viral.
(05:32):
Oh, I don't think I understandwhat you're saying there.
I'm gonna you know, I'm justgonna go with 100k, because then
my reel went viral it did.
Fabienne (05:42):
It did 100k.
Yes, virality, is virality aword or am I making stuff up?
Jordan (05:48):
virality, it sounds english it sounds like like a
word that it sounds likesinglish I don't, I don't think
it is english, sounds like okay,it's fob's language.
Fabienne (06:02):
Okay, you're good, we're good, we're sorry, sorry
it's fob's language, um, so Ilike, um, um, I wish, wow.
I was reached out to by thisnew bookish company that's
actually a dutch-based company.
It's called time to read andthey asked me if I wanted to be
like an ambassador or like aninfluencer of sorts for the
(06:23):
upcoming three months.
And I was like, I was so takenby surprise because I haven't
been so active like on Instagramand you know if I have been
like, if I have been active.
It was more like, you know,like, updates about the house,
um, but they reached out and Isaid I would love to be a part
of this program, because youknow I be a part of this program
(06:47):
, because you know I like tohave, um, I like to, I guess, um
, support companies that arelike dutch grown also, because
you don't really see that oftenum.
But they said, uh, so we knowthat you're like, um, uh, busy
now with, like the moving and,like you know, the um,
renovating the new place.
So we uh will reconvene thisconversation or like, we will
continue this conversation inmarch.
And we did, and I sort of like,subscribed to their program and
(07:10):
so what they called it and, um,I can expect a book that's
catered to my interests in theupcoming week and then I
received a book every like every.
I think two um every well,every month then, because
obviously like a three-monthsort of like collaboration, but
(07:32):
I receive a book each month andI have to review it for them and
then obviously like makecontent for them.
But that's really exciting.
Jordan (07:40):
That is so exciting.
Oh my God, wait.
So are they just a company that, like, sends out books to
people based like?
Did you fill out like a sheetof like what your?
Fabienne (07:50):
interests are yes.
Jordan (07:53):
Wait, I can't wait to see.
You have to send me a pictureof the first book.
Fabienne (07:57):
Like I have to make a few posts about it, like I have
to make a story whenever itarrives.
I have to do like an unboxingtype of video, just like a
review of the book.
You know just little, justlittle snippets, and it's not
even that content heavy in thesense of like what they're
(08:17):
asking in return, but it's alsojust what sounds logic.
You know, like they give you abook, you make content for it,
because that's basically justthe I guess, um, how do you say?
Like the voluta of sorts?
Um, in that sense, but I amreally excited, I indeed had to
fill out a form and, um, thebook that I'm receiving or that
(08:39):
I will receive is a blind date,so it's like wrapped in like a
box and then, like the bookitself is also wrapped in.
I don't know, I'm really I'mreally curious and I'm excited,
and I don't know it gives likethis entire um, I guess nook
here behind me that you see nowalso like a little bit of
purpose, because I can makeInstagram content again for,
(09:00):
like the bookish community andI'm really really so excited.
Jordan (09:03):
I was just gonna.
I was just gonna say are youtrying to get back into like
posting book stuff?
Yeah, that makes me so happy, Imean I loved your like I loved
your content, like the runningand like the home stuff, but
like I'm kind of excited for youto get back into like the
(09:25):
bookish world yeah, I will saythat I like I said, like I said,
I have to really get back intoit.
Fabienne (09:33):
Um, so it won't be like a daily thing but it
doesn't need to be no, but I, Ijust need to say that I now have
time again to just, like, youknow, unwind and just come back
home and relax and not beconstantly thinking of, oh, I
have to fix this for the newplace, because I am in a new
place.
I don't have to order thisbecause you know, um, we're
gonna.
(09:53):
I don't know I have to buybulbs because I need to hang up
some lines.
You know everything,technically speaking um, so I
can just, like, come back fromwork and literally just sit on
the couch and just do nothing.
I didn't have that for the pastcouple of months because you
were so busy.
You know, like sure, thateverything was in order.
It does, but it also and youknow it's fun because you're
(10:14):
working towards something um,that's really, really worth it.
But also, I really just alsowant to enjoy the house, you
know, like to enjoy, like myfree time, like to enjoy.
I saw someone I also postedthis on Instagram, ironically I
saw someone post for real inwhich they said I have become a
(10:35):
homebody, I am just going toenjoy my mortgage and I'm like
you know what?
That's what I'm going to do.
That's what I'm going to do.
Yeah, stay in and yeah.
Jordan (10:45):
And enjoy that shit.
Yes, enjoy that shit now thatyou talk about someone reaching
out to you, I want, yeah,someone reached out to me like
this, like okay, but like Idon't want to say their name
only because I haven't receivedthe product yet, and I want to
Only because I'll tell youafterwards.
But as soon as I receive it andI post about it, then I'll come
(11:07):
back and talk about it, but Iwill say it's a toy brand.
They like reached out to me onInstagram and you know how
sometimes they're like a littlefishy because it will just be
like hi username.
Oh yeah, like sips of fiction.
Fabienne (11:22):
Question marks.
Question mark.
Jordan (11:24):
Yeah.
Or they're like, I've gotten alot that are like oh, we'll give
you a discount to buy our stuff, but then we want you to post
about it.
And I'm like, why would I dothat?
Like, I don't, I don't wantyour stuff to begin with.
If you want to send mesomething, and if I like it,
I'll share it.
Or if we agree to something.
But, like, this company likereached out to me and was like
hey, we love your content, likewe love the spicy books, we
(11:47):
think this toy will be perfectand your book content.
And you see, like, do younotice?
Literally everybody under thesun posts about Balessa.
And it's not Balessa, it's notBalessa.
Oh.
And I'm like, but I'm, Iliterally get nothing.
I'm nothing against people thatpost with the lesson, nothing
(12:08):
against them.
And especially if you'regetting paid for it, like you do
you, you get that.
But I'm like.
I'm like, please stop postingwith Plessa.
I'm like so sick of seeingPlessa, like here, get $10 off
or a free toy.
I'm like, no, I'm not signingup.
God damn it, it's a no for me.
(12:28):
People actually, though, butlike this one is, they don't
want any of that.
It's just like me posting withlike said product and like the
spicy books.
But they said I can collab withthem.
So I'm kind of excited to havelike my like picture or like my
post on their feed.
Yeah, I'm actually so freakingexcited for it to come in and I
(12:53):
can't.
I don't want to really talkabout it here so I have to tell
you about it afterwards, but I'mlike I like can't wait.
Fabienne (13:03):
You can't wait until, like it arrives, you have to
make content for it.
Or you can't wait to.
You can't wait until it arrivesand you have to make content
for it, or you can't wait toarrive and test it out.
Jordan (13:10):
Oh, my gosh.
Honestly, I don't want to saytoo much.
Fabienne (13:19):
No, I get that, but you're already saying way too
much already actually.
Jordan (13:30):
But no one I know is following them, so like I don't
think you would have ever heardof them until like clearly you
know when I like post about it,you'll see like you'll know
company small toy yeah or bigimpact?
No, I'm just kidding, I don'tknow, so I need to just wait for
it to come in, I'll have tolike tell okay, I'm gonna leave
it at that, and you know thatonce I post about it I
(13:52):
definitely will come on here andtalk about it more.
But it's just like it's weirdthat I'm excited for you too,
like, uh, like a second handtype of like excitement I think
I'm like actually so excitedjust because, like this is
something like I haven't hadanybody like reach out to me
(14:16):
outside of like the book world.
Like people are like hey, Iwant to send you my book or a
free book, or like whatnot butlike this is like the first time
someone's actually.
Well, no, I did do a coffeebrand but that coffee or a free
book or like whatnot.
But like this is like the firsttime someone's actually.
Fabienne (14:27):
Well, no, I did do a coffee brand, but that coffee
was shit.
I was just about to say like,wasn't that like with mushrooms
or something like a mushroomtype of coffee?
Oh shit.
Jordan (14:34):
No that that coffee was good.
I got like a different coffee,like Javi, javi, and that was
shit.
Yes, oh, but right, yes, oh,but the mushroom coffee was good
.
They, they, they were cool.
They were cool and they didn'texpect any content.
Where javi wanted content, themushroom coffee was like hey, we
just want to send this to youfor free, like sure thing and I
was like okay, um, but this oneokay.
(14:58):
So then, aside from those likethis is like the first one, that
was like I want to send youthis, like package.
Fabienne (15:08):
Sorry, yes, yes, okay, so, and interesting,
interesting, yes, yes, I wouldlike a fully detailed review.
Jordan (15:21):
A fully detailed report once received.
I'm like I I can't I got.
I'll have to tell youafterwards because there's so
many things I want to say, butthen I feel like it's giving it
too much away and I don't know Iget that no I'm gonna wait oh,
I get that okay I get that doyou have anything else?
Fabienne (15:39):
fab.
Uh, no, no, I think we shoulduh dive, right into it I mean
that, do a deep dive into darkromance.
Yeah, I'm yeah, I actually thatwas sort of I wanted to find
like a segue, because I alwaystry to find one, but better way
to do it?
(15:59):
From toys to dark deep dive,never mind.
Yes, dark romance, deep dive.
Um, I will say that I did notdo any homework, so I'm just
gonna do it all from the top ofmy head yes, I think.
Jordan (16:16):
No, I like well, so like , the reason why I wanted to
talk about this was actuallybecause I've noticed some people
like sharing reels.
At this point it's been like amonth or so since people have
been sharing reels, but I feellike it's still very much
pertains to even now and I'velike talked about it like with
different people in like thiscommunity about like dark
(16:36):
romance as a whole.
I think, because dark romancehas grown so much, especially
with like dark romantic comediesand things like that, that I
hate.
Like the one of the big thingsI hate is that dark romance is
now being marketed through theirtrigger warnings, and that's
like the one of the one, one oflike the first things I wanted
(16:58):
to bring up with you is like,what are your thoughts on dark
romance being marketed throughits trigger warnings in the book
?
Like oh, look, here is twopages worth of trigger warnings.
Fabienne (17:12):
You should read my book um, I think a trigger
warning is exactly what it is.
It's a trigger warning and itshould not be seen as a guide as
to why someone should read abook.
I understand why it's, you know, like put up front, um, as like
(17:35):
an ingredient of sorts, likeoff the book, like, hey, this
happens in my book.
Um, you decide whether you wantto read it or not.
I think that's like an entirelydifferent approach already, as
is, but no, I think it's a weird, weird marketing strategy to do
that.
I would say just keep you know,like stick to the tropes.
(17:57):
Stick to, maybe.
Well, the thing is now that I'mthinking thinking about it too
like what do people now consider?
Like where do people draw theline like what is a trigger
warning and what to considerlike trope, like a trigger
warning could also.
(18:17):
I will say that.
I will say this, though atrigger warning could also be
seen as a trope, or vice versa.
But to have like an entire listof things that are triggering,
that are actually like mentally,physically triggering to some
people, um, that is like adifferent list.
Jordan (18:34):
You should not use that as a marketing trick no, I don't
think if you have it on thetrigger warning page.
This is my thoughts.
I think whatever you have onthe trigger warning page should
not be used as a marketing ployand I think but those are like
the, like a trigger warning.
I feel like the point of atrigger warning is for the
(18:56):
reader to know what is in thebook.
Maybe this is not the book foryou if you will be triggered by
it, like, and I think I think,like like the big, I mean like
anything that's like here's atrigger warning, but like
anything that has rape or sexualassault or non-consensual
(19:18):
intimate moments, like there's,like those things I think should
be listed in a trigger warningand that should be available to
the reader to know if it'ssomething that they should read.
But I feel like a lot of people, I think, especially in the
dark romance world, they do wantbooks that have that, and I
(19:42):
think it's just gotten gottenand I think it's just gotten,
it's just been I don't know howto word it but I think authors
have realized that people arereading books because it has X,
y and Z.
So now they think that theyshould market the book that way,
(20:09):
which I don feel that theyshould, but those are my own
personal thoughts and I alsohave, like, different thoughts
on like.
Do you think a trigger warningpage should be at the front of a
book?
Fabienne (20:20):
oh, I was waiting for like the or segment.
The thing is I don't readtrigger warnings because I have
the privilege of not, of likenot.
You know Having any yeah orlike not.
I don't want to say that.
But obviously, but I skipmostly oh wait, it's not making
(21:01):
it no wait, I'm not making anysense.
I actually I I think like fromuh, objective type of standpoint
, I would say, yes, put it up atthe front.
Or like have a page where youdedicate, or like explain
something to your possiblereader and say, if you don't
want to be, but then again,there you go, like if you don't
(21:22):
want to be spoiled, some peoplelike put like qr codes like on
their page and then you have toscan it.
Then it links you back to awebsite well.
Jordan (21:29):
So what I think is I?
Because I agree with you,because I think sometimes
trigger warnings can be aspoiler in a way for certain
like certain trigger warnings,so I can understand why some
people might not want a triggerwarning.
I tend to it's like it's weird.
I don't.
(21:51):
I haven't been reading anythingsuper dark, so I know anything
that I pick up isn't going tohave anything that maybe
something that I can't handle.
Trigger wise, um, but I don'tnecessarily love it in the
beginning of the book.
I do think it should still bein the book and I but I think it
should be in the back beinglike I have, like the author has
(22:12):
, should have a note being likeI have a list of triggers.
It's in the back of the book,so please flip to the back if
you want to read that list.
Otherwise, please continue.
Fabienne (22:23):
But like, just like note that it is there in the
book, because I have seen peoplemention that, so you don't like
wait, quick question so youdon't like accidentally skip
over it or like skim over it ifit's on the same page as that
same explanation well, I, in thesense I agree with you.
Jordan (22:44):
Like I, I don't want it in the beginning, because I
don't want it to necessarilyspoil something for me, because
I have seen trigger warningsthat have essentially spoiled
the book for me, which I mean Istill open the book and read it.
I mean I still read the bookand it's like whatever, but I
almost wish that the triggerwarning was in the back so I
couldn't have accidentally readit.
(23:10):
Yeah, but it's still there forease Cause.
Like I don't.
I don't totally love the ideaof the QR code to a website or
to go check out my website.
I think it should be a littlebit more available to the reader
, especially if it's like a bookthat you would buy in a
bookstore too.
Like I think the reader shouldbe able to just like check out
the first few pages Okay, seethat it's in in the back, and
(23:33):
then can look in the back to seeif the book is for them or not.
But I don't think it.
That's why I don't think a bookshould be marketed by its
trigger warnings.
I don't think, and usually Idon't know like I feel like the
main triggers should just be thewhat is in the back of the book
.
But like, like even amiscarriage, or like the loss of
(23:56):
, like a pregnancy loss, like Ithink that can be a very heavy
trigger.
So like that should bedefinitely something, but like
that's also that could be aspoiler, especially if it's not
a surprise pregnancy like I.
Like I can see that being aspoiler in a book if it's you
don't know that the person'sgoing to be pregnant, so like
those sort of things.
But I definitely think that issomething that should be a
(24:17):
trigger in a trigger warning inthe book, so like.
But again, I think it should beat the end, because it's like
like that, that wouldn't be likea trigger for me, but like
someone that's trying to getpregnant that's had a bunch of
miscarriages, that could be atrigger for them.
So I think there is like.
I think it like should behandled like in a maybe a
(24:44):
different way well moredelicately, that's yeah for
starters.
Fabienne (24:49):
That's one for starters yeah also it shouldn't
be.
I also feel more like if youhave I also sometimes see like
trigger warnings and then youhave like bullet lists, like
bullet points, like it's listed,I would say people consider
that more tropes and people likethe authors, like editors or
(25:10):
whatever, who decided to have itlike in that format in their
book, whether it's like, um,when people add it to the book
in a like, a like, like listed,then I'd say the approach from
the author standpoint used astropes.
But if you have a more writtenout page where it's like I don't
(25:35):
want to say dedication becausethat's not the right word, but
like an explanation of source,like okay, this is a trigger
warning this book can take likeheavy themes such as explanation
of sorts, like okay, this is atrigger warning this book
contains.
Like heavy themes such asumbrella terms you know yeah,
exactly, then I feel it's morerespectfully done too, and not
so as in like thrown in there ashey.
This book contains y and z, andthis is why you should not, or
(25:55):
should, read it.
It's, I don't know, it's.
It's an interesting pointactually that I don't know.
I want to say something.
Jordan (26:13):
I lost it.
Next point, which we can likedive all around, was because I
feel like these trigger warningsare what authors are using to
market their book.
Being like this is what my darkromance has and it's like
da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
Here's a list of it.
(26:34):
I feel like people have talkedabout books going viral as we
talk about viral in ourintroduction, but I think the
books that are going viral arethese books that are being
marketed for trigger warningsLike oh, you love non-consensual
(26:56):
, intimate scenes, like okay,here we go, and that's just one.
But I do think non-consensualneeds to be a trigger warning.
I just don't think you shouldmarket your book that way.
But I also feel like they putin a ton, a ton more trigger
warnings that I don't thinkshould be listed as trigger
(27:17):
warnings.
But those seem to be the booksthat go viral, but they're not
like that great.
I don't know how to word this.
I feel like authors just wantto go viral so they can sell
books, and I understand that.
Like authors write books tosell them because it's their
business and they need to makemoney.
(27:37):
They're kind of like how weneed to make money too, but I I
hate that.
I feel like every author's goalnow is to go viral instead of
just writing a good book.
Yeah, we're, but I alsounderstand like, and maybe those
(28:00):
books.
Fabienne (28:01):
Following up question that just okay, it's like
popping up in my head right now.
Do you think, because peoplewant to go viral, people really
want to make it like you know,they want to be um, they want to
be like the next brin weaver.
Jordan (28:16):
Like how butcher and blackbird went, bird went viral
you know what I mean, so I thinklike are these?
Fabienne (28:25):
this is obviously like it's not even.
Ah christ, how do I wear this?
Jordan (28:29):
it's like this is actually too much like a bitch
um no, let's, let's let you know.
Remember, we started thispodcast knowing that we're not
true, we're not making friendsno, true.
Fabienne (28:41):
And we also like uploaded uh, too long ago.
Why we hate the books that we,you know, like the unpopular
opinion, the ones I knowremember how.
Jordan (28:50):
So I actually made sorry side note.
I made a note in that episodeat the bottom being like this
because I I forgot that theintro is basically us talking
about holidays so so I had toput a note being like this
episode came from the previouspodcast because we never edited
it out.
But I was like, oh, this worksso that way for future episodes.
(29:10):
It like fits.
But I went with that, went withthat title, just because I
thought that title would pullthe most traction, because I was
gonna remember the first timewe released it it was unpopular
opinions.
But I thought that title wouldpull the most traction Because I
was going to remember the firsttime we released it it was
unpopular opinions, but I thinkthat was like too nice.
So I was like people are goingto want to know like what books
(29:32):
did we hate?
Yeah, so like I went with sorry, but no no.
Okay, what were you talkingabout before that?
Fabienne (29:41):
Girl?
I have no idea.
No, I do know.
Okay, then what were youtalking about before that girl?
I have no idea.
No, but like they, um no, itwas, it was more because also
just dark romance as a genre.
I feel like and I think that wehave talked about this no, I
definitely know that we havetalked about this before too
like because everyone thinksthey can write dark romance
because of all the tropes,because of all the trigger
warnings.
But hey, you can, you can writeit, I can write it, you know
(30:02):
what, sure, you be creative.
Sorry, but like the entiregenre is so like over- Saturated
now Saturated.
Yes, yes.
Jordan (30:13):
Like I think, I think, but I think it's because so I
remember like over ten years agono, no, no, ten years ago, no,
no, no, 10 years ago, nine yearsago like I was like dark
romance wasn't a thing.
But I know I read books thatwere dark romance because I
remember, like I picked up myfirst ammo jones book oh, yep
(30:33):
like back in, like 2016, andyeah, I loved her books, but you
didn't know it was dark romancethen.
But you're reading, like,looking back, I'm like, oh, yeah
, that was definitely darkromance, but I liked it better
then and then I would.
I I feel like people weren'twriting books to go viral, they
(30:57):
were just writing books thatthey wanted to write, or because
I do think there is like.
I do think that outside of darkromance, there is that cookie
cutter romance that everybodywants, like it follows the same
same, like yes, where it's likemain characters meet, they fall,
(31:17):
they like get together, there'ssome type of conflict, they
fall in love the end, and Ithink there are people out there
that want that.
So I think those authors justneed to find their readers.
But I feel like dark romancedoesn't necessarily always have
to have that cookie cutterrecipe definitely not.
(31:42):
I think that's what, what setsthe genre apart yeah, but I
think that's like where the likestruggle like kind of comes
from, because I think theeverybody that comes into it,
whether they're the cookiecutter ones or not, don't really
know where the dark romancegenre is in, like their mind.
(32:05):
I don't know how this is likenot coming out how I want to say
it.
Fabienne (32:09):
Take your time.
We have an hour, as the titleof this podcast suggests.
Jordan (32:15):
That is true, that is true.
But I just think that, like, Idon't even know.
I don't even know, but I justhate where.
I hate where the dark romancegenre has gone to.
I hate where we're at right nowin dark romance.
(32:37):
I don't like, I'm veryselective.
I actually I had a conversationwith my best friend this like
past weekend when I saw her, butI told her that I don't really
read dark romance anymore.
But I know too that like thereason why we like started this
whole podcast which we've talkedabout so much.
But I think we just the darkromance genre because it's
(32:59):
gotten so big.
And I think we just the darkromance genre because it's
gotten so big and I think itdefinitely got really big during
like quarantine and all that asbooks just got big in general.
But I think they they're justnot the same.
I think people are trying towrite dark romance to go viral
to they all like, instead ofthey all want to cross this line
(33:24):
, to like the extreme and wejust like read it and we're like
, what the fuck did we just readlike.
I think that's like a very bigthing, which comes back to like
why authors are marketing theirdark romances through the
trigger warnings because like ohlike, see all the shit that
happens in my book, which Ithink, in a way, what you're
(33:45):
saying is trope wise, like youcan't fit all those tropes into
one book without it beinggarbage and everybody wanting it
to go viral.
Like people are writing thesedark romances almost like it's
like fast fashion.
You're just picking it up toconsume it, to throw it away.
Fabienne (34:03):
I think that's exactly where most of these books go
wrong.
They're just writing thesebooks for the sake of selling it
.
You got to earn your money, yougot to make your bread.
You got to get food on thetable.
I get that, but it's also ifyou write a story, make sure
it's good.
Jordan (34:26):
It's so tough because I remember going.
I okay.
So I went to a conference along time ago for writers and
I'm not going to dive into why Iwas at that conference, but I
was um, we will dive into itwith me after.
Yes, I will, but there were.
The opening presentation wasbasically like you need to
(34:49):
figure out what kind of writeryou're going to be, and there
were three points you write whatyou want to write, so you write
the story that you want to tell, want to tell.
Then there was you write forbusiness, so you're writing to
(35:09):
make money.
And then she mentionedsomething else that I can't
remember, but I think the firsttwo it's almost like kind of
like where these authors arelike they're writing to make
money but it's like writing togo viral so they make a lot of
money.
But I feel like as a reader, Idon't want that.
Like I don't want that viralbook.
Like I want a book that is likeso good that I like scream from
(35:30):
the rooftops.
And if it just happens to besomething that's gone viral in
the sense of like, I'm thinkingof like fantasy, sarah j maas
those books are so good, like nowonder people are talking about
them and they've gone viral.
But that's because the story'sso good, not just viral because
of some spicy quote that theauthor posted or somebody, some
(35:51):
influencer posted.
And now you have to like readthis dark romance where I feel
like a lot of these, likecontemporary, not dark romances
don't necessarily go viral.
I mean, I guess some, no, Ithink it's really just like the
dark romance genre.
And then there are contemporaryromances that, like the authors
, are just big, like I'mthinking, well, I won't dive
(36:13):
into any names.
But there are contemporaryromances that are just like
bigger authors but, I think,like a specific dark romance,
like book, these authors aretrying to get their book to go
viral yeah, have you evernoticed that it's also mostly
the same type of person whowrites these books?
(36:34):
what do you mean by that?
Fabienne (36:37):
I actually can't say this on the podcast.
I actually can't say this onthe podcast.
So I'm not talking about, like,hirama Jones, I'm not talking
about your KV Rose Montage, youknow.
I'm just talking about theoversaturated books, like like I
just mentioned, like the peoplewho are writing the books
(36:58):
because they think they canwrite it.
Jordan (37:01):
And yeah, I can, can't, I cannot say this on the podcast
okay, fair, fair, but I have,but it's, it's the same type of
people.
I feel like there's adifference too.
I think there's a differencebetween, like the good stories
(37:23):
or the authors that you knowthey had a story in mind and
here it is, but then there's,it's okay, it's.
This is for the authors thatnotice a trend and then they try
to just write that trend,whether it's like stalkers,
stalker romances, dark romances,like all of these things that
(37:46):
are just like get hot for asecond.
Authors try to jump on thattrend and then they like,
essentially, I think flop,because it's exactly what I was
saying before it's fast fashion.
So when you try to jump on,when the trend goes up, like the
trend's already going down bythe time you get the book out,
so like you've missed youropportunity, because it's like
(38:08):
gone, like I don't see any darkcowboy romances anymore because
I think the trend is fastfashion.
Except I do think there's likethe authors that started.
So I think, like pam goodwin's,I think I actually it nodded, I
think it's the first one, butI've heard, but, like I think,
pam goodwin's an amazing writer,so I think these amazing
(38:31):
writers start the trend and thenit's all these other people
that follow it.
That exactly, and I think thatexactly.
And I think it kind of, insteadof like writing their own story
, they're trying to hop on to atrend that's already come and
gone by the time they get theirbook out.
(38:52):
Mm, hmm, so is this where Ishould tell you I'm writing a
dark romance?
I'm just kidding.
Fabienne (39:02):
And I'm going to log off a dark romance.
I'm just kidding and I'm gonnalog off yeah, no, just kidding
if you are, you do you.
But if you are making yourtrigger warnings a trope list, I
know where you live, I knowyour address so I'll, I'll come
find you yeah, please do,because I think I I can't.
Jordan (39:21):
No, absolutely not.
It's so tough because I feellike some of these authors, they
just they are like I do agree,like there should be no kink
shaming, like don't yuck someoneelse's yum and whatnot, but
like no, I feel like there'salso like there's also like a
vague border, like there is aline there, some things you
(39:43):
should keep to yourself, somethings should just not be
written.
Fabienne (39:46):
You shouldn't be writing it just for the sake of
writing it, because you're sortof vague.
Jordan (39:50):
Yes, and then I think it's like these people are
trying to cross this like line,but they're like crossing way
over, not like towing it,they're like crossing way over
it.
They're like crossing way over,not like towing it, they're
like crossing way over it, butlike.
These are the people that aretrying to get their book to go
viral instead of just writingthe story that, like, they want
to write.
I think that's the tough partfor us, because I feel like
(40:14):
there's probably people outthere that want that story
that's gone viral.
They want to read that story.
I think we're just at the stagewe're at and we just want a
good fucking story.
Like we want a story thatauthors want to tell and like I
think, and and in a way, genuinestories, the authentic ones yes
(40:35):
, and in a way I think we cantell the difference between the
author that is just trying to goviral and then the author
that's telling the story thatthey want to tell yeah yeah, and
that's where it's at.
I'm like thinking like peoplespecifically, but I don't want
to say like their names rightnow, but like I I've like even
(40:57):
just like the people that liketheir story is like the story
they want to tell do you have adark romance book that you think
was really shitty because ofall these, uh, all of these
things that we just talked about?
I'm like thinking of one.
(41:18):
It was like a dark cowboy likeI had.
It was like okay and I had agood like I read it.
It did become repetitive, butit was like one of those ones
that I was like it's nothorrible, but what it's not?
It was not good but I, I did.
I it got to the point it wasdefinitely more erotica.
(41:38):
So like I definitely started,ended up skimming it.
I didn't know it was going tobe erotica when I like started
it and then I mean I should haveknown by like chapter three,
there was like spicy scenes,whatever but I still like.
Fabienne (41:50):
Was it not in a trigger warnings by any chance?
Jordan (41:54):
no, but they definitely.
She definitely markets throughtrigger warnings, and I don't
want to say it on here but I'll.
I mean I'm sure you can kind ofguess, like so I'm gonna be the
only bitchy person on thispodcast today.
Thanks, it's fine it's fine I'lltake one for the team but I
feel like I mean, when I read it, I like I guess I was in the
(42:17):
mood for it, I don't know, it'sjust.
I finished it being like okay,this definitely seemed like a
book that was like trying to goviral, and I think she's like
one of the ones that did goviral, like she wrote like a cow
.
She was like, I mean pam goodwingodwin I don't, actually don't
know her name godwin, yeahgodwin okay, like I think she's
the one that started dark cowboyromances, which I kind of want
(42:38):
to read that.
Maybe not right now, but like Ithink her is like kind of what
like started it, but like Ithink hers is super old like she
started it, like withoutrealizing she started it like I
feel like I need to figure out,but this one that I read had
just maybe been out for a couplemonths, so it was definitely
(42:59):
one that was like happening,happening, happening on the
trend.
Fabienne (43:04):
Yes, see, there it goes again.
The trend is actually not agood thing.
Um wait, we also.
No, not not we.
You actually mentioned how darkromance has like been on the
(43:25):
rise, so to say, like the pastfew years, especially during the
quarantine um days.
Why do we think that is?
Why was dark romance so up andcoming then?
Jordan (43:38):
I don't.
I think it's honestly.
I think it's more so becausethe I think it's the same thing
of like why Romantasy grew.
I think just so many peoplewere reading during quarantine
that it was more than just likewhat was available in like a
bookstore.
Like self-published authors andindie authors were big before
(44:00):
because I read them before, yeah, but I think it was definitely
more of your contemporary,lighter romances, where I think
some people did write darkromance but was not marketed as
dark romance but like, lookingback, I could see them as dark
romances, but I think becausethey weren't big.
(44:21):
But then, as people are reading, they're like testing their
boundaries and I think they'rediving into like darker things.
Now they're liking those typeof things.
Authors are seeing that and Ifeel like we saw so many like
readers become authors and Ithink which I think is awesome I
don't think anybody.
I think if you want to write abook, you should write a fucking
(44:42):
book Like you get you writethat goddamn book.
Am I going to read it Depends.
Is it a book that you wanted towrite or is it a book you're
trying to go viral?
But I think it just.
I think everything blew up inthe book world when COVID and
quarantine happened just becausenobody had anything to do
(45:02):
besides watch TV, read.
So I think like that kind ofstarted it all because even like
I feel like romanticism grew tolike a crazy amount that I
think massively but I do thinkit's becoming oversaturated too,
like that's in its own thing.
Fabienne (45:22):
I agree.
Different discussion, differentepisode, yes yes, so yeah
that's how I feel.
So back to the first questionat hand.
Do we think that triggerwarnings should be used as a
selling point?
No, should they be in the front?
No, should they be in the back?
(45:43):
Yes, yes, I do.
Jordan (45:45):
I do think they should be in the book.
I don't think they should likebe something that you should
have to go to a website.
I think they should still be inthe book.
I just think they should be inthe back.
So if you don't want to bespoiled, you can not be spoiled,
but if you're someone that likewants to know, you can actively
go to the back of the book andsee it.
Fabienne (46:05):
That's me.
Just make a note of it, like inyour author's note.
Jordan (46:07):
You know, like that this is an X Y C book and if you
know, like, make it like eithertriggers yeah, like, right
before the dedication, rightafter the dedication, authors
know like, hey, this bookcontains heavy themes.
If you want to see the fulllist, head to the back of the
book.
If you're one that you wouldfeel that it's a spoiler, then
(46:33):
please continue on, but justknow that there are triggers to
this book, and I think that'sall you need to say.
So then let the reader decideif that's something that they
want to and I don't.
And like, on that note, if youdid not look at the trigger list
and then you rate a book onestar because it has, let's say,
something that you're not okaywith, I don't think you should
(46:54):
be rating that book because youdidn't look to see that it has a
trigger warning of xyz, like Ithink that.
But that's also somethingcompletely different like, like,
let's say, the book has, like,rape in it.
Is it different?
or just like plain stupid like,oh, like I don't, but yeah not
(47:15):
you not you, no, no, I'm sayingthat the person that picks up a
book and reads a book and ratesit two stars because there's
rape in it, I think that's notOK, because you should have seen
that there was a triggerwarning that said that had rape
in this book.
So I know I agree.
Fabienne (47:33):
Oh no, I agree.
I just meant to say that, ifyou like and it didn't, didn't
didn't come out right.
Bottom line here is that thisperson who is reviewing that
based on not having read thetrigger warnings, but saying
that it was stupid because of atrigger that they did not read,
(47:54):
then they're just plain stupid.
Jordan (47:56):
Oh, agreed, but I think, if, if I think you should not
be rating rating it, then Ithink you should be Saying that
the book wasn't for you andleave it unrated, because I
think you're pulling down theauthor's rating based on
something that you should haveknown before you went into the
book.
Fabienne (48:16):
Yeah, I agree.
Jordan (48:29):
I agree, cool into the book?
Yeah, I agree, I agree, cool,cool, cool, cool, cool, cool.
Yeah, but I think, well, well,okay, so do you find yourself
like, will you, can, I know likewe kind of stepped out of dark
romance, but do you think youwould continue reading dark
romance, just like you're kindof picking and choosing which
books you want to read?
Fabienne (48:45):
Yes, but I'm highly selective.
Like I will stick to my safedark romance author.
Like the ones you know, yeah,yeah, because I know that I
won't be disappointed.
I know where their heart saidwhen it comes to their stories.
They're like genuine, authenticstories.
They take into account thetrigger warnings as actual
(49:08):
things, as yep, um.
They're not all over the toptropes, they're just like your
general dark romance tropes,because what makes a dark
romance is x, y and z, and thoseare the tropes.
Um, I, if I find another bookthat looks interesting to me and
it says that is like that it isa darker type of romance, or,
(49:30):
like you know, with the darkthemes, I will do my research
first.
Definitely, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So no, I definitely will readit still and I and I actually um
, but just very more.
Jordan (49:48):
I almost want to say meticulously, um, but it's more
like I am doing it yeah, I feellike I'm more inclined to pick
up a dark romance, especially ifit's older, from a new author.
To me, like looking at that PamGoodwin one, the Dark Cowboy,
like that first book released in2018.
(50:09):
So it's like I feel like that'sbefore the dark romance genre
really took off.
But I think also Pam Goodwin isjust like an amazing writer, so
I think that's different.
Fabienne (50:19):
Oh yeah, she's good.
Jordan (50:20):
She's so good.
So I think I'm like but there'sa couple dark romances that I
think are older that I want toread.
But I've never read that likeauthor before, but I have been
seen.
I have seen Insatiable by LeeRivers.
I think she's kind of onethat's been like blowing up and
I started reading insatiable.
(50:41):
I'm not too far but I've kindof like put it down and picked
it up.
I'm like I don't know how Ifeel about it, but I'm not.
It's definitely a dark romancebut it doesn't seem to be one.
That's like she's marketing itbased off trigger warnings.
Um, and it seems to be more ofa story than um then are more of
(51:03):
a story she wanted to tell yeah, so sorry for that.
Leo wants to tell yeah, um,just like one that's trying to
go viral we should.
Fabienne (51:20):
We could make a 2.0 type of episode based off like
based off this one where we willdiscuss like older dark romance
books that don't reallycirculate now in like the pool,
you know, like the current poolum, and like revive those
stories that should get moreattention, as opposed to all the
(51:40):
things that just like sproutingout of the ground right now I'm
kind of here for that so staytuned.
Jordan (51:48):
No kidding, we still have to record that episode um
yeah, but but maybe that'ssomething coming um, I'm gonna
write it down in the notes Ilike it, but do you have
anything else for this deep diveinto dark romance?
Fabienne (52:06):
actually no, I think I said everything that I wanted.
I think I said everythingpeople are not canceling me
after having an opinion.
Jordan (52:16):
I don't think they should, but I really never know
I still like you.
Fabienne (52:21):
I hope you still like me.
No kidding, well, no, notkidding, but I yeah, sort of um,
I should just stop talking Istill like you.
Thank you I still, like you too, I don't know where the next
step from.
Jordan (52:37):
I don't know either, but I like it.
Fabienne (52:40):
Okay, wait, wait, bye.
Thank you so much for listening.
Jordan (52:45):
And please don't forget to rate and review wherever you
can find us.
Fabienne (52:49):
So catch you next time .
Jordan (52:51):
Bye.
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