January 20, 2025 • 27 mins
Join me in conversation with Cathy Slater, owner of Dulwich Books, as she sheds light on the profound connection between independent bookstores and their communities. Through her journey, Cathy illustrates how booksellers can make a significant impact by understanding readers' needs while emphasizing diversity in literature and the importance of small presses.
In this episode:
• Sharing insights from a career in publishing to bookselling
• The lasting history and impact of Dulwich Books in its community
• Exploring the challenges and joys of promoting diverse literature
• The reciprocal relationship between the bookstore and local schools
• Advocating for the roles of small and medium presses in the industry
• Addressing how to engage children in reading amidst digital distractions
• Highlighting the passion-driven bookselling model and reader connection
Dulwich Books
James, Percival Everett
Sort of Books episode on The Bookshop Podcast
Oonagh Stransky (Héloïse Press) episode on The Bookshop Podcast
Shakespeare: The Man Who Pays the Rent, Judi Dench, Brendan O’Hea
Time of the Child, Niall Williams
Links to help with L.A. Fire Relief:
California Community Foundation
United Way of Greater Los Angeles
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a
bibliophile.
Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
Each week, I present interviewswith authors, independent
bookshop owners and booksellersfrom around the globe and
publishing professionals.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media, and remember to
(00:33):
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
You're listening to Episode 281.
It's difficult to comprehend thedevastation in Los Angeles from
the fires.
The emotional sadness isoverwhelming.
We all know someone who haslost their home and for some
(00:55):
they have lost someone they love.
Pets are displaced, manysuffering from severe burns.
Wildlife has died.
As I speak, the devastation andsadness is ongoing.
This is the time humanitygathers to help each other,
whether offering a shoulder tocry on donations of clothing,
food and shelter, fosteringdisplaced animals and monetary
(01:17):
donations, or simply offeringthanks to first responders.
People who do not understandLos Angeles often scoff about
this incredible city, but in myeyes and the eyes of many, she
is the city of angels.
She is beauty, nature,creativity and culture.
She is love and dreams.
She is hope.
(01:38):
Please consider giving inwhatever way you can.
I'll put a list of placesaccepting donations in the show
notes.
Here are a few to get youstarted California Community
Foundation, california FireFoundation, world Central
Kitchen, united Way of GreaterLos Angeles, american Red Cross,
(01:59):
pasadena Humane Society, losAngeles Fire Department
Foundation, mutual Aid LosAngeles, los Angeles Regional
Food Bank and GoFundMe.
Dulwich Books is anaward-winning, independent and
much-loved bookshop serving thelocal community of Dulwich in
(02:22):
the UK for over 40 years.
The bookshop stocks a widerange of titles as well as a
fantastic choice of children'sbooks, greeting cards, gift
stationery and jigsaws.
In addition, they offer aloyalty card scheme.
Just ask at the till whenmaking your purchases.
Their friendly, knowledgeableand experienced staff are on
(02:44):
hand to recommend books and helpwith any questions.
Today I'm chatting with CathySlater, the owner of Dulwich
Books.
Hi, cathy, and welcome to theshow.
It's lovely to have you here.
Delighted to be here too.
Thank you for asking me.
Let's begin with learning aboutyou and your work in publishing
and what inspired you to becomea bookseller and bookshop owner
(03:05):
.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Well, the journey was not mapped out at all.
I had a career of over 30 yearsin publishing, always with an
international slant, so workingwith bookshops across Europe,
and then working with foreignrights and translation rights,
selling to international bookpublishers and translation
(03:28):
rights selling to internationalbook publishers.
So after 30 years I was justwatching something different.
So I didn't plan or set out towork in a bookshop, but I just
saw an advert in the bookseller,which is the organ of the book
trade they call it and I thoughtyou know what?
That would be fascinating tosee it from another perspective.
And then I became the managerand then I purchased the
(03:52):
bookshop when my previous ownerset up her own publishing
company.
So it was all meant to be.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
And Cathy, what have you learned from being a
bookseller and a bookshop ownerthat you wish you'd known when
you were in international rights?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I think you are never aware enough of the end user
when you're in publishing.
You're in your nice office withyour colleagues and they're all
speaking the same language.
You're meeting authors.
You're not meeting the end user, so you're not actually talking
to readers.
So that was invaluable, thatlesson of how you can recommend
(04:33):
a book to a customer.
The editor has no idea who thatend user is because they're not
in the shop, on the shop floor,with the customer in front of
them.
So that has been really, reallyinteresting to me.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yeah, wouldn't it be great if people in publishing
had to actually go and work in abookstore even if it was for a
week, an indie bookshop to getthe gist of how wonderful it is
to be able to talk to readersand hear about the books they
want to read?
Having worked in a local indiebookshop here Bart's Books which
is wonderful I quickly learnedthat people come in there and
(05:10):
they want to know about whatyou're reading.
They want books to be suggestedto them, and what I loved about
working there was that I got toshare the names of books and
authors who are not on thebestseller lists.
They probably need to be, theyshould be, but people would come
back and want more suggestionsbecause they love the books or
the author, and I found that tobe a kind of alchemy.
(05:34):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yes, exactly, it's the final end of the journey
from the author, the editorproducing this book.
The final end is to put thebook in a customer's hands.
So for me, bookselling has comeat the end of my career.
But a lot of young people startin bookselling and then go on
to work in publishing and Ialways think, oh well, I've done
(05:57):
it completely the wrong wayaround, but actually for me it
works, completely works.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
And I'm older now, so it's also nice to feel grounded
and in one place as we getolder.
Can you tell me a little aboutthe history of Dulwich Books?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, well, we don't know.
We know for sure that last yearwe celebrated 40 years because
I had been delving into some ofthe old emails and found that we
had celebrated 30 years intosome of the old emails and found
that we had celebrated 30 years10 years prior.
So I haven't been able to findmuch information about the early
years, but some of thecustomers knew it when it was
(06:34):
just new and they used to taketheir children there when
they're, and now their childrenare in their 40s by 30.
So it's a lovely journey andit's been a part of the
community for 40 years.
Many different owners.
I've only been there six years,seven years actually, and it's
been always just much loved bythe community.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Oh, I love to hear that, before we delve deeper
into Dulwich Books and also thearea of Dulwich, can you walk us
through the job description ofa publishing rights director?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
It's quite difficult.
I would say it's got sales atits heart.
You've got to be able to sell.
You have to listen, understandwhat somebody's needs are.
I think you might have a greatproduct but it's not what they
want, so you have to reallyunderstand what books they're
(07:26):
doing or what they're interestedin.
There are so many differentthings.
It's about sales, aboutlistening, know your product
really really important andenthuse.
You know you enthuse peoplewhen you're talking about
something.
I think that's part of thesales process for me Building
relationships.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yes indeed, Building relationships is what life is
about.
Yeah yeah, yeah, exactly.
In the early 80s I lived inLondon for a while and so I got
my map out and wanted to findDulwich on the map and I saw
it's between Crystal Palace,brixton, london, Bexley and
Croydon.
Does it have a village feel?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
It's an extraordinary thing In about the five-mile
radius there are about Eightbookshops and each one is at the
heart of that little community.
So yeah, I mean, just up theroad there's another bookshop in
Dulwich Village, there's abookshop in Sydenham, there's a
(08:27):
bookshop in Crystal Palace, weknow them all.
Brixton has a lovely shop,Clapham.
They're all little sort ofsuburbs of South London but they
all have their own community.
I mean, I really like thecommunity.
It's got parks, there'sfamilies, there's older folks.
(08:48):
It's quite a mixed bag.
It feels villagey, sort ofsuburban, but more urban than
suburban.
It's just a really uniqueatmosphere I think.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Do you have that congestion, the heavy traffic?
Feel as you do in London.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Well, traffic's always a problem.
Yeah, the traffic's got really,really bad.
We're close to the SouthCircular, which is infamous, and
it's a really, really busy road.
It sort of should be a motorway.
It's got so much traffic on it.
Yeah, the congestion's killingthe hearts of our village life,
I think.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
And my husband and I watch Escape to the Country
every now and again.
Oh yes, and as we're luckyenough to live in the country
over here in the States, it'sinteresting to see how many
people actually want to leavethe cities and move into a
village or the countryside.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
And I fantasize about living in the countryside and
then I realize there are nobuses and there's no theaters
and you have to drive everywhere.
So I think our local mayors andthe council are trying to
eliminate traffic, but peopleare very resistant.
They love their cars, but Isort of know there's a better
(10:02):
way with people walking andcycling.
But I drive my car, so I'm ahypocrite.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
It's difficult to know what to do.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Cathy, would you say Dulwich is a diverse and
inclusive community, and howdoes this affect the curation of
the bookshop?
Oh, definitely.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
We've actually, even in the seven years I've been
there, I've seen it changing.
We do have a very old sort ofgenerational thing.
Where they've been they're intheir 70s, probably now they've
been coming to the bookshop.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Hey, Cathy, be careful.
I feel 70 is very young, onlybecause I'm about five years
away from it.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Hey, 70s and up, and I feel quite old sometimes when
the younger people come in.
So some of my staff are youngerthan me.
They all are, and that's nicebecause they've got children.
They can relate to the littleones.
But I know it's very, verydiverse.
(11:06):
I mean I would like to make iteven more diverse.
But we respond to the customersand then the market.
But we definitely try and makeour selection of books as
diverse as possible.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
The reason I ask this is because you speak Italian,
French, English and a littleSpanish, so do you carry books
in languages other than English,particularly children's books?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yes, I saw that question.
I mean we buy all our booksdirect from publishers or from
our gardeners.
They are the country's maindistributor, millions of titles
in stock and they might have LaPeste by Jean kamil um,
jean-paul sartre, and they havemaybe a few in german.
Very little stock in in foreignlanguages so logistically we
(11:46):
can't find those books indifferent languages, um and I
and I know that our customersask occasionally if we can.
During during the pandemic,ironically, we sold lots of
copies of La Peste, which I readfor O-Level all those years ago
(12:07):
about the plague.
But yeah, so in answer to yourquestion, we have no, we don't
carry stock of books in otherlanguages.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, I'd say, out of the I don't know 200 bookshop
owners and booksellers I'vespoken to over the last four
years, many have said they areon the lookout for books in
other languages, specificallychildren's books, that have like
one page where it might be inFrench and then the second page
is in English.
They're saying there's a realneed for that, there's a niche
for it.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Well, I know that in America they do sell a lot of
Spanish books because of theLatin American communities.
I think the people who buy ourbooks want to read in English.
So, even though we haveAmericans, we have French, we
have Germans, we have Italians,spanish, asian, we have lots of
different languages, but theywant to read in English, I think
(13:00):
, because if you're reading aclassic, you lose a lot in
translation if you're able toread it in the original.
But we like some of the Frenchbooks in translation, spanish
books in translation.
I'm a great fan of Frenchliterature, but I don't think
we'd sell any in French.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Let's talk about books that have been translated
into English.
My husband and I love readingbooks in translation.
He specifically lovestranslations from Japanese into
English and I like Japanese toEnglish, but I also love Spanish
and Italian books that havebeen translated.
I think the beauty of reading abook that's been translated is
(13:39):
in the cadence of the writing.
You can learn a lot about acountry just through the style
of the writing.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Right, yes, well, the Japanese phenomenon is
incredible, isn't it?
They all have such a beautiful.
Yeah, I absolutely agree,they're doing very well.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Well, I would love to hear about your booksellers
what they're reading and if theyhave a favourite book to hand
sell.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Right.
Well, right now, I mean Icouldn't pick just one.
I don't think I can pick justone book At the moment.
I suppose, if I am picking onebook, our manager is selling a
lot of copies of Held it's oneof the Booker shortlist and
James Purser Everett, anotherone on the Booker shortlist.
(14:30):
Rochelle, who works in the shop,is an incredible reader.
She reads so much, but Icouldn't tell you what she's
recommending right now.
You know, because she reads somuch.
She's couldn't tell you whatshe's recommending right now.
You know because she reads somuch.
She's always hand-selling tocustomers.
I'm always hearing her saying,yeah, have you read this, have
you read this?
I mean, when Cormac McCarthyhad those books last year, two
years ago, she was selling a lotof Cormac McCarthy's books.
(14:52):
That's before he died.
Kitty reads a lot of historicalfiction fiction, so she's
excellent on um and she's reallyinto theater, so she'll be
selling the man who pills andpays the rent.
That's the book by him aboutshakespeare.
We had a scottish bookseller whosadly left us last year and he
recommended a lot of scottishwriters like um uh well, douglas
(15:16):
stewart, obviously.
Um, lucan booth well, douglasStewart, obviously.
Lucan Booth was a book heabsolutely championed a book
called Trust.
He really loved that.
Tom Lake by Anne Patchettthat's been one of my favourite
books of the last three fewyears.
The New Sally Rooney I lovethat.
I love Irish literature ah, metoo.
(15:36):
So yes, it's hard to reallynarrow it down.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, I agree, I am enthralled by the writing coming
out of Northern Ireland and theRepublic of Ireland over the
last like 10 years.
It is phenomenal.
I guess it always has been, andI think one of the reasons is
they cherish their writers, theycherish their creatives, and
that's a lot different to manyother countries, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yes, well, I think they have the lyrical sort of
soul.
I do really love the older onesas well.
William Trevor I'm reading thisis a proof the Time of the
Child.
Now Williams, he's a wonderfulwriter.
He's a lot older but he's Everysentence is absolutely
(16:24):
beautiful.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
You just can't believe how wonderful, how
wonderfully he writes Reminderto everyone, I will put links to
the books that we've mentionedin the show notes.
I'd like to talk a little aboutyour community.
How does the local Dalitcommunity support the bookshop
and how does the bookshopsupport the community?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yes, it's just very reciprocal.
Does the bookshop support thecommunity?
Yes, it's just very reciprocal.
I mean we don't need to do anawful lot to keep them coming in
.
They love coming in the shop.
They will prefer to buy from usthan buy from an online a
well-known online company.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yeah, I'm with them on that.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
So they're very supportive.
We have a system of loyaltycards where they get money off
if they um.
For each stamp they accumulateum, so they that's very, very
popular.
People love, love that um.
And we just had bookshop day.
We really felt the love.
It was packed all day long, itwas busy, sort of felt like
(17:24):
christmas.
It was packed all day long, itwas busy, sort of felt like
Christmas.
There was so much love, peopleall coming in, so that was
lovely for us.
It really just made us feel sohappy.
We support a lot of localschools.
We try and marry an author witha school, and when the author's
at a school, we'll go and sellhis books with a school, and
(17:48):
when the author's at a school,we'll go and sell his books.
So that's a lovely thing to seeyoung children learning about
how great it is to be a writerand how many different worlds
you can travel to.
So, yes, the school world.
I'd like to do more of that.
We have a lot of local schoolsand it's very, very inspiring to
to do work with small childrenas well.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
I love it when you actually get to witness a child
in middle school.
I think that's six, seven,eight.
Where you are, I'm not too sure, but they get the connection
that, oh, I could become awriter too.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
It's fabulous yeah, yeah it is.
But they they run past the shopand say mom, it's the bookshop.
I can hear them in the street.
You know they're so excitedthat there is.
There is some concern that, um,boys are after about 12, say 12
, 11, 12, they're stoppingreading and the parents are in
(18:42):
great despair that they used tolove reading and now they're
always on their devices orthey're just lost that habit.
So it seems to be a thingprevalent.
So as long as we can keep themreading, I think it's really,
really important.
And the publishing is fantastic.
The children's publishing atthe moment is phenomenally good.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah, I always say to parents or caretakers when they
say to me how do I get my childto read?
He or she just isn't wanting toread at all.
I think the best thing you cando for children is to let them
read what they want to read.
Put just books around yourhouse that they might want to
just pick up.
They can be nonfiction, theycan be fiction, picture books,
(19:23):
national Geographic magazines,anything.
If you do this, you will findthat they will get an interest
in something I know.
When my children were littlethat's what we did and it
definitely worked.
They're both passionate readersand that came from reading a
lot of Captain Underpants whenthey were younger.
It was huge about 20 years ago,25 years ago.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Oh still is.
And Bunny vs Monkey, theyabsolutely love it.
25 years ago oh still is.
And Bunny versus Monkey, theyabsolutely love it.
Dave Pilkey.
So he obviously knows how tospeak to children and he was
dyslexic himself, so he's gotsomething definitely.
And some parents are a littlebit concerned that they're
reading comic books but, as youabsolutely said, they enjoy it.
They're reading.
(20:07):
As long as they're reading, Iagree with you?
Speaker 1 (20:09):
What about you?
What are you currently reading,Cathy?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Well, I usually read about three books at the same
time.
So I'm reading the one I justmentioned, the Nell Williams,
about three quarters of the waythrough that, about three
quarters of the way through that.
And I'm afraid I'm reading aRichard Osman book because I
love the ease of his books andhe's got a real place in
(20:35):
literature.
I think he just writes what wecall cozy crime and I'm almost
finished a new William Boyd book, his latest book.
We get a lot of proofs.
I've got a pile about this highI can see it from here about 10
books in my to-be-read pile.
So I don't know what I'll readafter Niall Williams.
(20:57):
Actually I think maybe the AnneMichaels, the Held it's called
Held it's the Booker shortlist.
That'd be my next one, themHeld it's called Held.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
It's the Booker shortlist.
That'd be my next one, I think.
I think we'd be remiss if wedidn't say thank you and mention
the small and medium presses.
They are doing remarkable worksupporting authors who normally
wouldn't have a voice in the bigtraditional publishing market,
and in the UK you have somefantastic small presses market
and in the UK you have somefantastic small presses.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, we like the small one Fitzcarraldo Pushkin.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I mean there's lots of small presses that are part
of the Independent Alliance andI'm going to give a shout out to
Sort of Books, which is a smallpublisher in the UK.
They have actually been on theshow and I'll make sure to put a
link in the show notes to thatepisode.
They published the Seven Moonsof Mali, al Maida, by Shehan
Karuna Talaka, and he won theBooker Prize in 2022 for that
book.
Another UK small press I'd liketo give a shout out to is
(21:56):
Heloise Press.
Ena Marti is the founder.
Ena is going to be on the showin about another month.
I recently read a book calledAbandonment, which was
originally written by HerminiaDeloro, but it was translated by
Una Strunsky, and Una has beenon the show also, so I'll put a
link to her episode in the shownotes.
But Abandonment is absolutelybrilliant, beautifully written
(22:20):
book.
So, for all those small andmedium pressers, reach out to me
, I'd love to give you a shoutout or have you on the show.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yeah, I worry about how many books are just not
going to end up being read.
1900 books were published onSuper Thursday last week, and
it's an incredible number in oneday.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Oh my goodness, that's a lot of books.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yep, so it just seems it can be very overwhelming.
We've got to be very careful,but we definitely would like to
support smaller presses andunique voices.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
You mentioned earlier Fitzcarraldo, which is an
independent publisherspecializing in contemporary
fiction and long-term essays.
I love the simplicity of theirdesigns, their covers.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
I must say it's very lovely to see their book selling
in our shop.
They've definitely got, andI've been to some bookshops
where they have, with the blueon one side and the white ones
on the other side, so reallysort of celebrating that
publisher and some of myfavorite books over the last
five years have been publishedthrough small and medium presses
(23:26):
.
Yeah, that's good.
And this is the problem we hadwith the pandemic is that we
would definitely try and stockthose books, talk to the
customers about these books andin the pandemic nobody could
come in, nobody could browse,nobody could see what else there
was.
They probably struggled to hearwhat was coming out.
So it was terrible for thesmaller presses and unknown
(23:50):
authors.
But we like to champion debuts,the sort of the young writers
we follow their careers, becauseSally Rooney was probably one
of them.
I tend to just read.
If I feel that they're going tosell, I feel I should read them
.
So I know what they're about.
But if I could read more, Iwould read, actually branch more
(24:12):
into very, very smallindependent presses.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I should do that more .
With the state of the worldright now, I have a lot of
people come to me and saying oh,I just can't read, I'm so
worried about everything.
My suggestion is to either readpoetry before you sleep or some
light fiction.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I think short stories are good for that.
I really love a short story andfrom an early age I used to
read the Canadian author, whohas slightly been shamed
recently.
She's one of my favourite shortstory writers.
It's such a perfect form, isn'tit?
Have you read Claire Keegan'sbooks?
(24:51):
They're almost like a pocketbook.
They're little.
I mean, they are almost likeshort stories, aren't they?
No novellas, but such spare,beautiful prose.
I think she's hard to beat.
Actually, I can't think ofanyone who is as wonderful as
her.
But there's so much that Ihaven't read.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Kathy, I love chatting with you about books.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Oh yeah, you too, I love to talk about books.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Okay, I'm going to ask you one more bookish
question.
Did you enjoy Hamnet by MaggieO'Farrell?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Oh yes, absolutely, and all her books, the Marriage
Portrait.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yes, the Marriage Portrait is on my shelf.
I haven't had a chance to readit yet.
Cathy, thank you so much fortaking time to chat with me on
the Bookshop Podcast.
It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
It's so nice that you invited me to be part of this,
and I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
You've been listening to my conversation with Cathy
Sl slater, owner of deluge booksin the uk.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media and remember to
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
To find out more about thebookshop podcast, go to
(26:03):
thebookshoppodcastcom and makesure to subscribe and leave a
review wherever you listen tothe show.
You can also follow me at MandyJackson Beverly on X, instagram
and Facebook and on YouTube atthe Bookshop Podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
(26:25):
the contact form atthebookshoppodcastcom.
The Bookshop Podcast is writtenand produced by me, mandy
Jackson Beverley, theme musicprovided by Brian Beverley,
executive assistant to MandyAdrian Otterhahn and graphic
design by Frances Farala.
Thanks for listening and I'llsee you next time.
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a
bibliophile.
Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
Each week, I present interviewswith authors, independent
bookshop owners and booksellersfrom around the globe and
publishing professionals.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media, and remember to
(00:33):
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
You're listening to Episode 281.
It's difficult to comprehend thedevastation in Los Angeles from
the fires.
The emotional sadness isoverwhelming.
We all know someone who haslost their home and for some
(00:55):
they have lost someone they love.
Pets are displaced, manysuffering from severe burns.
Wildlife has died.
As I speak, the devastation andsadness is ongoing.
This is the time humanitygathers to help each other,
whether offering a shoulder tocry on donations of clothing,
food and shelter, fosteringdisplaced animals and monetary
(01:17):
donations, or simply offeringthanks to first responders.
People who do not understandLos Angeles often scoff about
this incredible city, but in myeyes and the eyes of many, she
is the city of angels.
She is beauty, nature,creativity and culture.
She is love and dreams.
She is hope.
(01:38):
Please consider giving inwhatever way you can.
I'll put a list of placesaccepting donations in the show
notes.
Here are a few to get youstarted California Community
Foundation, california FireFoundation, world Central
Kitchen, united Way of GreaterLos Angeles, american Red Cross,
(01:59):
pasadena Humane Society, losAngeles Fire Department
Foundation, mutual Aid LosAngeles, los Angeles Regional
Food Bank and GoFundMe.
Dulwich Books is anaward-winning, independent and
much-loved bookshop serving thelocal community of Dulwich in
(02:22):
the UK for over 40 years.
The bookshop stocks a widerange of titles as well as a
fantastic choice of children'sbooks, greeting cards, gift
stationery and jigsaws.
In addition, they offer aloyalty card scheme.
Just ask at the till whenmaking your purchases.
Their friendly, knowledgeableand experienced staff are on
(02:44):
hand to recommend books and helpwith any questions.
Today I'm chatting with CathySlater, the owner of Dulwich
Books.
Hi, cathy, and welcome to theshow.
It's lovely to have you here.
Delighted to be here too.
Thank you for asking me.
Let's begin with learning aboutyou and your work in publishing
and what inspired you to becomea bookseller and bookshop owner
(03:05):
.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Well, the journey was not mapped out at all.
I had a career of over 30 yearsin publishing, always with an
international slant, so workingwith bookshops across Europe,
and then working with foreignrights and translation rights,
selling to international bookpublishers and translation
(03:28):
rights selling to internationalbook publishers.
So after 30 years I was justwatching something different.
So I didn't plan or set out towork in a bookshop, but I just
saw an advert in the bookseller,which is the organ of the book
trade they call it and I thoughtyou know what?
That would be fascinating tosee it from another perspective.
And then I became the managerand then I purchased the
(03:52):
bookshop when my previous ownerset up her own publishing
company.
So it was all meant to be.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
And Cathy, what have you learned from being a
bookseller and a bookshop ownerthat you wish you'd known when
you were in international rights?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
I think you are never aware enough of the end user
when you're in publishing.
You're in your nice office withyour colleagues and they're all
speaking the same language.
You're meeting authors.
You're not meeting the end user, so you're not actually talking
to readers.
So that was invaluable, thatlesson of how you can recommend
(04:33):
a book to a customer.
The editor has no idea who thatend user is because they're not
in the shop, on the shop floor,with the customer in front of
them.
So that has been really, reallyinteresting to me.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yeah, wouldn't it be great if people in publishing
had to actually go and work in abookstore even if it was for a
week, an indie bookshop to getthe gist of how wonderful it is
to be able to talk to readersand hear about the books they
want to read?
Having worked in a local indiebookshop here Bart's Books which
is wonderful I quickly learnedthat people come in there and
(05:10):
they want to know about whatyou're reading.
They want books to be suggestedto them, and what I loved about
working there was that I got toshare the names of books and
authors who are not on thebestseller lists.
They probably need to be, theyshould be, but people would come
back and want more suggestionsbecause they love the books or
the author, and I found that tobe a kind of alchemy.
(05:34):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yes, exactly, it's the final end of the journey
from the author, the editorproducing this book.
The final end is to put thebook in a customer's hands.
So for me, bookselling has comeat the end of my career.
But a lot of young people startin bookselling and then go on
to work in publishing and Ialways think, oh well, I've done
(05:57):
it completely the wrong wayaround, but actually for me it
works, completely works.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
And I'm older now, so it's also nice to feel grounded
and in one place as we getolder.
Can you tell me a little aboutthe history of Dulwich Books?
Speaker 2 (06:12):
Yeah, well, we don't know.
We know for sure that last yearwe celebrated 40 years because
I had been delving into some ofthe old emails and found that we
had celebrated 30 years intosome of the old emails and found
that we had celebrated 30 years10 years prior.
So I haven't been able to findmuch information about the early
years, but some of thecustomers knew it when it was
(06:34):
just new and they used to taketheir children there when
they're, and now their childrenare in their 40s by 30.
So it's a lovely journey andit's been a part of the
community for 40 years.
Many different owners.
I've only been there six years,seven years actually, and it's
been always just much loved bythe community.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Oh, I love to hear that, before we delve deeper
into Dulwich Books and also thearea of Dulwich, can you walk us
through the job description ofa publishing rights director?
Speaker 2 (07:05):
It's quite difficult.
I would say it's got sales atits heart.
You've got to be able to sell.
You have to listen, understandwhat somebody's needs are.
I think you might have a greatproduct but it's not what they
want, so you have to reallyunderstand what books they're
(07:26):
doing or what they're interestedin.
There are so many differentthings.
It's about sales, aboutlistening, know your product
really really important andenthuse.
You know you enthuse peoplewhen you're talking about
something.
I think that's part of thesales process for me Building
relationships.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yes indeed, Building relationships is what life is
about.
Yeah yeah, yeah, exactly.
In the early 80s I lived inLondon for a while and so I got
my map out and wanted to findDulwich on the map and I saw
it's between Crystal Palace,brixton, london, Bexley and
Croydon.
Does it have a village feel?
Speaker 2 (08:07):
It's an extraordinary thing In about the five-mile
radius there are about Eightbookshops and each one is at the
heart of that little community.
So yeah, I mean, just up theroad there's another bookshop in
Dulwich Village, there's abookshop in Sydenham, there's a
(08:27):
bookshop in Crystal Palace, weknow them all.
Brixton has a lovely shop,Clapham.
They're all little sort ofsuburbs of South London but they
all have their own community.
I mean, I really like thecommunity.
It's got parks, there'sfamilies, there's older folks.
(08:48):
It's quite a mixed bag.
It feels villagey, sort ofsuburban, but more urban than
suburban.
It's just a really uniqueatmosphere I think.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Do you have that congestion, the heavy traffic?
Feel as you do in London.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Well, traffic's always a problem.
Yeah, the traffic's got really,really bad.
We're close to the SouthCircular, which is infamous, and
it's a really, really busy road.
It sort of should be a motorway.
It's got so much traffic on it.
Yeah, the congestion's killingthe hearts of our village life,
I think.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
And my husband and I watch Escape to the Country
every now and again.
Oh yes, and as we're luckyenough to live in the country
over here in the States, it'sinteresting to see how many
people actually want to leavethe cities and move into a
village or the countryside.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
And I fantasize about living in the countryside and
then I realize there are nobuses and there's no theaters
and you have to drive everywhere.
So I think our local mayors andthe council are trying to
eliminate traffic, but peopleare very resistant.
They love their cars, but Isort of know there's a better
(10:02):
way with people walking andcycling.
But I drive my car, so I'm ahypocrite.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
It's difficult to know what to do.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Cathy, would you say Dulwich is a diverse and
inclusive community, and howdoes this affect the curation of
the bookshop?
Oh, definitely.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
We've actually, even in the seven years I've been
there, I've seen it changing.
We do have a very old sort ofgenerational thing.
Where they've been they're intheir 70s, probably now they've
been coming to the bookshop.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Hey, Cathy, be careful.
I feel 70 is very young, onlybecause I'm about five years
away from it.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Hey, 70s and up, and I feel quite old sometimes when
the younger people come in.
So some of my staff are youngerthan me.
They all are, and that's nicebecause they've got children.
They can relate to the littleones.
But I know it's very, verydiverse.
(11:06):
I mean I would like to make iteven more diverse.
But we respond to the customersand then the market.
But we definitely try and makeour selection of books as
diverse as possible.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
The reason I ask this is because you speak Italian,
French, English and a littleSpanish, so do you carry books
in languages other than English,particularly children's books?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yes, I saw that question.
I mean we buy all our booksdirect from publishers or from
our gardeners.
They are the country's maindistributor, millions of titles
in stock and they might have LaPeste by Jean kamil um,
jean-paul sartre, and they havemaybe a few in german.
Very little stock in in foreignlanguages so logistically we
(11:46):
can't find those books indifferent languages, um and I
and I know that our customersask occasionally if we can.
During during the pandemic,ironically, we sold lots of
copies of La Peste, which I readfor O-Level all those years ago
(12:07):
about the plague.
But yeah, so in answer to yourquestion, we have no, we don't
carry stock of books in otherlanguages.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, I'd say, out of the I don't know 200 bookshop
owners and booksellers I'vespoken to over the last four
years, many have said they areon the lookout for books in
other languages, specificallychildren's books, that have like
one page where it might be inFrench and then the second page
is in English.
They're saying there's a realneed for that, there's a niche
for it.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Well, I know that in America they do sell a lot of
Spanish books because of theLatin American communities.
I think the people who buy ourbooks want to read in English.
So, even though we haveAmericans, we have French, we
have Germans, we have Italians,spanish, asian, we have lots of
different languages, but theywant to read in English, I think
(13:00):
, because if you're reading aclassic, you lose a lot in
translation if you're able toread it in the original.
But we like some of the Frenchbooks in translation, spanish
books in translation.
I'm a great fan of Frenchliterature, but I don't think
we'd sell any in French.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Let's talk about books that have been translated
into English.
My husband and I love readingbooks in translation.
He specifically lovestranslations from Japanese into
English and I like Japanese toEnglish, but I also love Spanish
and Italian books that havebeen translated.
I think the beauty of reading abook that's been translated is
(13:39):
in the cadence of the writing.
You can learn a lot about acountry just through the style
of the writing.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Right, yes, well, the Japanese phenomenon is
incredible, isn't it?
They all have such a beautiful.
Yeah, I absolutely agree,they're doing very well.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Well, I would love to hear about your booksellers
what they're reading and if theyhave a favourite book to hand
sell.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Right.
Well, right now, I mean Icouldn't pick just one.
I don't think I can pick justone book At the moment.
I suppose, if I am picking onebook, our manager is selling a
lot of copies of Held it's oneof the Booker shortlist and
James Purser Everett, anotherone on the Booker shortlist.
(14:30):
Rochelle, who works in the shop,is an incredible reader.
She reads so much, but Icouldn't tell you what she's
recommending right now.
You know, because she reads somuch.
She's couldn't tell you whatshe's recommending right now.
You know because she reads somuch.
She's always hand-selling tocustomers.
I'm always hearing her saying,yeah, have you read this, have
you read this?
I mean, when Cormac McCarthyhad those books last year, two
years ago, she was selling a lotof Cormac McCarthy's books.
(14:52):
That's before he died.
Kitty reads a lot of historicalfiction fiction, so she's
excellent on um and she's reallyinto theater, so she'll be
selling the man who pills andpays the rent.
That's the book by him aboutshakespeare.
We had a scottish bookseller whosadly left us last year and he
recommended a lot of scottishwriters like um uh well, douglas
(15:16):
stewart, obviously.
Um, lucan booth well, douglasStewart, obviously.
Lucan Booth was a book heabsolutely championed a book
called Trust.
He really loved that.
Tom Lake by Anne Patchettthat's been one of my favourite
books of the last three fewyears.
The New Sally Rooney I lovethat.
I love Irish literature ah, metoo.
(15:36):
So yes, it's hard to reallynarrow it down.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
Yeah, I agree, I am enthralled by the writing coming
out of Northern Ireland and theRepublic of Ireland over the
last like 10 years.
It is phenomenal.
I guess it always has been, andI think one of the reasons is
they cherish their writers, theycherish their creatives, and
that's a lot different to manyother countries, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
Yes, well, I think they have the lyrical sort of
soul.
I do really love the older onesas well.
William Trevor I'm reading thisis a proof the Time of the
Child.
Now Williams, he's a wonderfulwriter.
He's a lot older but he's Everysentence is absolutely
(16:24):
beautiful.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
You just can't believe how wonderful, how
wonderfully he writes Reminderto everyone, I will put links to
the books that we've mentionedin the show notes.
I'd like to talk a little aboutyour community.
How does the local Dalitcommunity support the bookshop
and how does the bookshopsupport the community?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yes, it's just very reciprocal.
Does the bookshop support thecommunity?
Yes, it's just very reciprocal.
I mean we don't need to do anawful lot to keep them coming in
.
They love coming in the shop.
They will prefer to buy from usthan buy from an online a
well-known online company.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Yeah, I'm with them on that.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
So they're very supportive.
We have a system of loyaltycards where they get money off
if they um.
For each stamp they accumulateum, so they that's very, very
popular.
People love, love that um.
And we just had bookshop day.
We really felt the love.
It was packed all day long, itwas busy, sort of felt like
(17:24):
christmas.
It was packed all day long, itwas busy, sort of felt like
Christmas.
There was so much love, peopleall coming in, so that was
lovely for us.
It really just made us feel sohappy.
We support a lot of localschools.
We try and marry an author witha school, and when the author's
at a school, we'll go and sellhis books with a school, and
(17:48):
when the author's at a school,we'll go and sell his books.
So that's a lovely thing to seeyoung children learning about
how great it is to be a writerand how many different worlds
you can travel to.
So, yes, the school world.
I'd like to do more of that.
We have a lot of local schoolsand it's very, very inspiring to
to do work with small childrenas well.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
I love it when you actually get to witness a child
in middle school.
I think that's six, seven,eight.
Where you are, I'm not too sure, but they get the connection
that, oh, I could become awriter too.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
It's fabulous yeah, yeah it is.
But they they run past the shopand say mom, it's the bookshop.
I can hear them in the street.
You know they're so excitedthat there is.
There is some concern that, um,boys are after about 12, say 12
, 11, 12, they're stoppingreading and the parents are in
(18:42):
great despair that they used tolove reading and now they're
always on their devices orthey're just lost that habit.
So it seems to be a thingprevalent.
So as long as we can keep themreading, I think it's really,
really important.
And the publishing is fantastic.
The children's publishing atthe moment is phenomenally good.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
Yeah, I always say to parents or caretakers when they
say to me how do I get my childto read?
He or she just isn't wanting toread at all.
I think the best thing you cando for children is to let them
read what they want to read.
Put just books around yourhouse that they might want to
just pick up.
They can be nonfiction, theycan be fiction, picture books,
(19:23):
national Geographic magazines,anything.
If you do this, you will findthat they will get an interest
in something I know.
When my children were littlethat's what we did and it
definitely worked.
They're both passionate readersand that came from reading a
lot of Captain Underpants whenthey were younger.
It was huge about 20 years ago,25 years ago.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Oh still is.
And Bunny vs Monkey, theyabsolutely love it.
25 years ago oh still is.
And Bunny versus Monkey, theyabsolutely love it.
Dave Pilkey.
So he obviously knows how tospeak to children and he was
dyslexic himself, so he's gotsomething definitely.
And some parents are a littlebit concerned that they're
reading comic books but, as youabsolutely said, they enjoy it.
They're reading.
(20:07):
As long as they're reading, Iagree with you?
Speaker 1 (20:09):
What about you?
What are you currently reading,Cathy?
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Well, I usually read about three books at the same
time.
So I'm reading the one I justmentioned, the Nell Williams,
about three quarters of the waythrough that, about three
quarters of the way through that.
And I'm afraid I'm reading aRichard Osman book because I
love the ease of his books andhe's got a real place in
(20:35):
literature.
I think he just writes what wecall cozy crime and I'm almost
finished a new William Boyd book, his latest book.
We get a lot of proofs.
I've got a pile about this highI can see it from here about 10
books in my to-be-read pile.
So I don't know what I'll readafter Niall Williams.
(20:57):
Actually I think maybe the AnneMichaels, the Held it's called
Held it's the Booker shortlist.
That'd be my next one, themHeld it's called Held.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
It's the Booker shortlist.
That'd be my next one, I think.
I think we'd be remiss if wedidn't say thank you and mention
the small and medium presses.
They are doing remarkable worksupporting authors who normally
wouldn't have a voice in the bigtraditional publishing market,
and in the UK you have somefantastic small presses market
and in the UK you have somefantastic small presses.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, we like the small one Fitzcarraldo Pushkin.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I mean there's lots of small presses that are part
of the Independent Alliance andI'm going to give a shout out to
Sort of Books, which is a smallpublisher in the UK.
They have actually been on theshow and I'll make sure to put a
link in the show notes to thatepisode.
They published the Seven Moonsof Mali, al Maida, by Shehan
Karuna Talaka, and he won theBooker Prize in 2022 for that
book.
Another UK small press I'd liketo give a shout out to is
(21:56):
Heloise Press.
Ena Marti is the founder.
Ena is going to be on the showin about another month.
I recently read a book calledAbandonment, which was
originally written by HerminiaDeloro, but it was translated by
Una Strunsky, and Una has beenon the show also, so I'll put a
link to her episode in the shownotes.
But Abandonment is absolutelybrilliant, beautifully written
(22:20):
book.
So, for all those small andmedium pressers, reach out to me
, I'd love to give you a shoutout or have you on the show.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yeah, I worry about how many books are just not
going to end up being read.
1900 books were published onSuper Thursday last week, and
it's an incredible number in oneday.
Speaker 1 (22:41):
Oh my goodness, that's a lot of books.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Yep, so it just seems it can be very overwhelming.
We've got to be very careful,but we definitely would like to
support smaller presses andunique voices.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
You mentioned earlier Fitzcarraldo, which is an
independent publisherspecializing in contemporary
fiction and long-term essays.
I love the simplicity of theirdesigns, their covers.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
I must say it's very lovely to see their book selling
in our shop.
They've definitely got, andI've been to some bookshops
where they have, with the blueon one side and the white ones
on the other side, so reallysort of celebrating that
publisher and some of myfavorite books over the last
five years have been publishedthrough small and medium presses
(23:26):
.
Yeah, that's good.
And this is the problem we hadwith the pandemic is that we
would definitely try and stockthose books, talk to the
customers about these books andin the pandemic nobody could
come in, nobody could browse,nobody could see what else there
was.
They probably struggled to hearwhat was coming out.
So it was terrible for thesmaller presses and unknown
(23:50):
authors.
But we like to champion debuts,the sort of the young writers
we follow their careers, becauseSally Rooney was probably one
of them.
I tend to just read.
If I feel that they're going tosell, I feel I should read them
.
So I know what they're about.
But if I could read more, Iwould read, actually branch more
(24:12):
into very, very smallindependent presses.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I should do that more .
With the state of the worldright now, I have a lot of
people come to me and saying oh,I just can't read, I'm so
worried about everything.
My suggestion is to either readpoetry before you sleep or some
light fiction.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 2 (24:30):
I think short stories are good for that.
I really love a short story andfrom an early age I used to
read the Canadian author, whohas slightly been shamed
recently.
She's one of my favourite shortstory writers.
It's such a perfect form, isn'tit?
Have you read Claire Keegan'sbooks?
(24:51):
They're almost like a pocketbook.
They're little.
I mean, they are almost likeshort stories, aren't they?
No novellas, but such spare,beautiful prose.
I think she's hard to beat.
Actually, I can't think ofanyone who is as wonderful as
her.
But there's so much that Ihaven't read.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Kathy, I love chatting with you about books.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
Oh yeah, you too, I love to talk about books.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Okay, I'm going to ask you one more bookish
question.
Did you enjoy Hamnet by MaggieO'Farrell?
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Oh yes, absolutely, and all her books, the Marriage
Portrait.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Yes, the Marriage Portrait is on my shelf.
I haven't had a chance to readit yet.
Cathy, thank you so much fortaking time to chat with me on
the Bookshop Podcast.
It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
It's so nice that you invited me to be part of this,
and I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
You've been listening to my conversation with Cathy
Sl slater, owner of deluge booksin the uk.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media and remember to
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
To find out more about thebookshop podcast, go to
(26:03):
thebookshoppodcastcom and makesure to subscribe and leave a
review wherever you listen tothe show.
You can also follow me at MandyJackson Beverly on X, instagram
and Facebook and on YouTube atthe Bookshop Podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
(26:25):
the contact form atthebookshoppodcastcom.
The Bookshop Podcast is writtenand produced by me, mandy
Jackson Beverley, theme musicprovided by Brian Beverley,
executive assistant to MandyAdrian Otterhahn and graphic
design by Frances Farala.
Thanks for listening and I'llsee you next time.
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