November 4, 2024 • 43 mins
Hi, and welcome to The Bookshop Podcast!
In this episode, I chat with Joyce Carol Oates about the 2024 republication of her novel Broke Heart Blues by Akashic Books. We explore how nostalgia and adolescent pressures shape her storytelling, with John Reddy Hart at the center—a character in Broke Heart Blues who encapsulates the dual nature of high school fame and the journey from family protector to solitary adult. Joyce lends her unique perspective, rooted in her rural upbringing and experience navigating more affluent circles, to reflect on how external perceptions often clash with self-view.
Venture into the enigmatic isolations of celebrity life with insights into iconic figures like Marilyn Monroe and Elvis Presley. Joyce shares her reflections on how these stars were often imprisoned by their fame, becoming reflections of their public personas. We also discuss the intricacies of adapting Joyce's novel Blonde into a film, the interconnected worlds of friendship, fashion, the arts, and her friendship with Gloria Vanderbilt.
I ask Joyce about teaching, an anchor amidst the creative whirlwind that emerges as a profound pillar of her life. She explains how teaching balances the uncertainties of writing with the gratifying structure of education. This episode celebrates a life committed to the arts, creativity, and the ever-evolving landscape of expression.
Joyce Carol Oates
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
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(01:17):
You're listening to Episode 272.
Joyce Carol Oates is a recipientof the National Medal of
Humanities, the National BookCritics Circle, ivan Sandroff
Lifetime Achievement Award, theNational Book Award and the 2019
Jerusalem Prize, and has beenseveral times nominated for the
(01:41):
Pulitzer Prize.
She has written some of themost enduring fiction of our
time, including the nationalbestsellers we Were, the
Mulvaneys Blonde, which wasnominated for the National Book
Award, and the New York Timesbestseller the Falls, which won
the 2005 Prix Femina.
She is the Roger S BerlinDistinguished Professor of the
(02:02):
Humanities at PrincetonUniversity and has been a member
of the American Academy of Artsand Letters since 1978.
It's my pleasure to welcome youto my conversation with Joyce
Carol Oates.
Broke Heart Blues wasoriginally published in 1999 by
Dutton Books.
Why did Akashic Books republishthe book in 2024?
Speaker 2 (02:25):
It's a sort of surprise to me.
It wasn't my idea, to you know,to reprint it.
It was a publisher and they didsome letters of mine also which
were not my idea.
It's as if these things arejust happening.
But the cover is so interestingand for me to read the novel
after 25 years was also astrange experience.
(02:48):
Yes, I bet it was Well.
In rereading the novel I wasreally struck by how special a
world that was where we could be.
We could be adolescents at thattime in a way that we can't now
, I think, with the internet, ofcourse, and school shootings
(03:10):
and so much that's different.
There was never even a glimmerof an idea of a school shooting
when I went to high school, orin this novel.
Yeah, we're in a very sad placeRight, and of course the
community in my novel is asuburb of Buffalo, so it wasn't
really like a small town butwhat we call like an affluent
(03:35):
suburb, you know, and I thinkthat allowed for a certain
bubble, like a prosperity andaffluence which the citizens of
a place like that have.
As a student I was bused in fromthe country.
I didn't live in Williamsville,I lived in a place called
Millersport which was just outin the country and we were on a
(03:58):
small farm, so several people inthat area, students and I,
would get on the school bus andwe'd be driven about 15 miles or
so.
It was quite a distance toWilliamsville, so I came in from
the outside and so writingabout the novel I'm sort of
(04:18):
looking at it from the periphery, which I think is where most
writers and artists dwell iskind of at the edge of things.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
It's a beautiful place to be.
Yes, while reading Broke HeartBlues, I couldn't help but think
about the pressures placed onyoung people.
The way everyone perceives JohnReddy Hart is similar to that
of a celebrity.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Well, when I wrote the novel I was writing about
nostalgia, that very, verypowerful, bittersweet but
somewhat indefinable emotionthat we feel thinking about the
past, remembering in some caseswhen we were teenagers and we
were much younger and we didn'thave adult worries and
responsibilities.
(05:03):
So I wanted to write a novelabout American nostalgia for
high school and John Reddy Hartis.
Probably every high school hassomeone a little bit like him or
it could be a girl who arecharismatic and attractive, but
something happens to them.
(05:24):
Who are charismatic andattractive but something happens
to them.
They disappear or they die orjust something sets them apart.
So John Reddy Hart was mycharacter and then I develop him
from the perspective of peoplelooking at him.
But then in the second sectionof the novel we see what he's
(05:51):
really like and he's such adifferent person.
He's such a kind of ordinarynice person who's done good
things for other people but notfor himself.
John Reddy Hart, he's like hisheart.
He sort of gives his heart, hedefends his family, defends his
sister Charlene.
He's like his heart.
He sort of gives his heart, hedefends his family, defends his
sister Charlene, he defends hismother.
He sort of gives up his lifefor that family, taking the
(06:14):
blame for a murder he didn'thimself actually do, but he
takes the blame kind of silentlyand then he goes on with his
life.
And then when he's an adulthe's going to be 39 years old in
the novel he doesn't have hisown family, he doesn't have a
really permanent life, he's he'sMr Fix-It.
He fixes it for people.
(06:35):
But then the third part of thenovel, we're back with the high
school memories again, and nowthe students, the teenagers, are
all grown up, coming back forthe 30th reunion and they still
have these naive, adolescentideas about John Hart.
They have no idea how sad hislife is, how diminished his life
(06:56):
is.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
So I think I'm always interested in the irony of how
people perceive us and how weperceive ourselves, and that is
probably strongest in the secondpart of the book, where we see
John Reddy Hart as this MrFix-It.
He's living in a small town,he's reckoning with himself and
perhaps wondering wheneverything is going to go to
(07:20):
hell in a handbasket, becausethat's how he perceives himself,
almost as not worthy.
And in the last part of thebook.
What I found fascinating wasthat you left the fate of John
Reddy Hart up to the reader.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, yeah, well, it's so touching.
I was thinking of my own fathertoo.
My father, frederick Oates, wasa handyman like Mr Fix-It.
He was sort of Mr Fix-It hecould paint, he could do
carpentry, even some simpleelectrical wiring he could do.
(07:57):
I don't say that his life wassad, but it was a very
restrained life.
He had to quit school when hewas only in eighth grade and he
had to go to work.
So he's sort of like John Hart.
He gave up so much of his lifefor his family.
My grandmother, my father'smother, had been abandoned by
her husband at a time when itwasn't really easy for women to
(08:21):
get employment.
Women couldn't have careers.
Really About all women might dois teach, and the teacher's
salaries were very low.
So my father was sort of likeJohn Hart.
When I wrote about him anddescribed him I was sort of
thinking of my own father whoultimately, his life wasn't that
(08:41):
sad.
When he retired from working ina factory he went back to
school.
He took, you know, adulteducation courses at Buffalo.
So I remember thinking oflooking at photographs of him
and thinking it's just kind of asad life, you know, when you're
so relatively poor and theoptions are so small and sadly
(09:05):
that's true for so many peopleliving in rural America.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Are there any other characters in Brokart Blues who
you've painted with traits orcharacteristics from other
members of your family?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Well, I don't think anybody else in the family is
based on anyone.
Dahlia Howard is nothing likemy mother.
I wrote a whole novel based onmy mother called Missing man.
I have that book right here.
Oh, that's my valentine to mydear mother.
My mother was extremely modest,but both my parents and my
(09:39):
grandmother also were reallyvery nice, uncomplaining people
of another era.
I think that they would be soshocked by today.
You know it was a time whenpoliticians didn't say such
awful things.
Politicians tended to be veryidealistic, maybe hypocritical,
(10:02):
but you know they gave speechesthat were all about unifying in
America.
And today, when you hear Trumpspewing literal hatred, I find
it actually still shocking afteryears.
You know we can remember whenpolitical leaders were
idealistic.
I mean George W Bush wouldnever say things like that.
(10:24):
You know more like a gentleman.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yes, I agree.
My father-in-law was aCalifornia Republican state
senator and while I'm far to theleft, he was not like a
Republican of today.
We'd have great conversationsand he would educate me and I'd
educate him about environmentalissues especially.
And when he passed away, at hisfuneral, there must have been
(10:50):
nearly 800 people there,including Willie Brown from San
Francisco, duke Majan, jerryBrown, pete Wilson.
You know from both sides it waslike a bipartisan funeral and I
think he would just be so sadto see what's happening now.
He would be shocked.
Where was his district Backthen?
(11:11):
It was from LAX all the waydown to Long Beach and Catalina.
But you know, it changes allthe time.
The districts change constantly.
It's strange because, when Ithink of it, he died in 2009.
And if I think about how muchthe Republican Party has changed
since then, and drasticallyover the last eight years, it's
(11:32):
almost unbelievable.
It is not the Republican Partythat it was, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
I know it sounded as if you're married into a very
nice family.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yes, I am, and I really loved my father-in-law.
He was a wonderful man.
Yes, I am, and I really lovedmy father-in-law.
He was a wonderful man.
Okay, let's get back to yourbooks Now.
You have a remarkable catalogof writing, from plays to operas
, novels and essays.
I was wondering if you sense apersonal inner theme that
resonates throughout your work.
(12:01):
I have my own thoughts aboutthis, but I would love to hear
your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Well, I think I often write about people who are
either male or female and itcould be adolescents too, who
feel very lonely and very aloneand they're sort of observing
life and they feel kind of onthe outside.
I think that I'm still writingabout from that perspective.
(12:28):
It's kind of a tonal feelingand I have an ongoing interest
in the visual world.
I like to describe places.
I like to describe landscape,trees and fields and creeks.
There's always a river or acanal going through my writing.
So when writing about JohnReddy Hart when he's living
(12:51):
alone in this somewhat smalltown in Western New York, I've
kind of put myself in thatperspective.
And even writing about MarilynMonroe from her perspective, she
became extreme.
Norma Jean Baker becameextremely isolated in her own
celebrity where people looked ather but saw only Marilyn Monroe
(13:13):
and didn't really care abouther.
It was more appropriating theglamour of Marilyn Monroe for
themselves.
And she did have love affairsand she married three times.
The marriages all seem to be toMarilyn Monroe rather than the
(13:34):
actual person.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Your words reminded me of kind of what we were
talking about earlier about theabsurdity of American celebrity,
but I like what you said thatit's not about Marilyn, it's
about her being reflected backonto them.
That's given me a lot to thinkabout.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yes, and when you're put on a pedestal, when you're
like the object, you can feelvery lonely because people sort
of isolate you and they don'treally want to think that you're
just like them or normal,because they just want to, they
want to idolize or objectifysomeone, but then they but they
(14:12):
also turn on people like thattoo really quickly.
Well, albus presley had asimilar experience because he
was kind of calcified andcocooned inside his celebrity.
He's very, but probably just,sort of an ordinary guy who
would like to be friends withhis friends from teenage years
(14:33):
and go out and have a pizza, youknow, hang out with his friends
.
But once you become a celebritylike Presley, you literally
can't go out anymore becauseit's a swamp with people.
And the same thing is true, say, with Bob Dylan or anyone who's
a celebrity they can't go outanymore, they're sort of hiding
(14:56):
away, and if we look at someonelike Elvis Presley and his
children and their children, Ican't help but think of
inherited suffering.
It's very interesting.
I was once out to dinner with afriend in Los Angeles and he
was a friend of Al Pacino.
So we had dinner with Al Pacinoand then we were walking across
(15:18):
the hotel lobby and I saw thisflash onto Al Pacino.
They stared at him and some ofthem just came walking right
toward him.
It was like moths.
He didn't look at them, henever made eye contact.
He kind of quickly went in anelevator.
But one man came forward withhis son.
(15:39):
He said Mr Pacino, can I haveyour autograph?
Very aggressively he says formy son.
And he kind of pushed his sonand I thought, oh my God, that's
what Al Pacino has to live with.
He can't go out in public.
But Al Pacino handled it verygraciously.
He signed this piece of paper.
He never made eye contact, hegot in the elevator and we all
(16:02):
disappeared.
But I really had a whiff of thefeeling of what that would be
like.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, I've seen it a few times when I worked as a
costume designer and stylist inLA.
When the door closed and it wasjust me alone with a celebrity,
some of them would be like theyrevert to their childhood.
They're just kind of giggly andfunny.
I remember thinking it wasstrangely charming.
Others you can just see they'rea bit drained, others just kind
(16:30):
of laugh it off or shrug it off.
It is fascinating.
And if I brought this back toJohn Reddy Hart in Broke Heart
Blues, it's a character who'snever really allowed to be a
child.
He's looking after his siblings, he's looking after his mother.
He's looking after his motherand he took the blame for
something that he didn't do toprotect those he loved.
(16:51):
John Reddy Hart never reallygot to experience being a child.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yes, that's true.
How were you working withcelebrities?
Speaker 1 (16:59):
I worked as a stylist and costume designer in Los
Angeles, mainly for music peoplethe music industry, commercials
sometimes tours, so I was verylucky I got to work with David
Bowie, madonna, tina Turner,george Michael I mean a whole
(17:20):
lot of different people andsomeone like Diane Keaton, the
Coen brothers, david Fincher.
It was a remarkable time in mylife.
I learned a lot about humanbehavior.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Wonderful, wonderful.
Yes, love the Coen brothersmovies and I did meet Diane
Keaton.
I met her with Larry Grobel andwith Al Pacino.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yes, when you mentioned Al Pacino, I figured
you must have met Diane Keaton.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah, she was even more down to earth than just a
plain nice person.
Yes and she's smart.
Diane Keaton didn't really seemto have that glamour or
celebrity.
She seemed much more like justa person.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I think she's a celebrity who has held onto her
autonomy while being a person.
I think she's a celebrity whohas held on to her autonomy
while being a celebrity.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, and when I met her she was really talking about
her children.
She adopted a couple ofchildren.
That seemed to be really theemotional focus of her life, not
her career, but she just reallywas like a family person.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
And highly creative too.
You spoke about Marilyn Monroeearlier, and I would love to
hear about the adaptation ofyour book Blonde to film and
co-writing with director AndrewDominick.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Well, andrew Dominick contacted me quite a long time
ago, I'm guessing maybe around2000.
He had that project in mind fora long time.
He needed to get financing.
So he sent me the screenplaythat he had adapted from the
novel and I thought it wasexcellent.
It's just the narrow band ofthe novel.
(18:57):
It doesn't take in the wholenovel, naturally.
I mean that's the way it shouldbe.
But he did it very well and Italked to him on the phone maybe
twice or three times.
We have never met.
I've seen his movies.
The assassination of JesseJames, I think, is really
excellent, an early stage beforethe final version, and we
(19:28):
talked a little bit about it.
But I don't think henecessarily got any advice from
me.
You know, I found it very tenseto watch.
I have never seen it all theway through.
I usually have to stop and thencome back to it.
So I've seen it maybe threetimes but I could never sit down
and watch it with friends.
It's too painful and maybe it'sAna de Armas' acting is so
(19:52):
powerful.
It was like too real, you know,too real.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yes, she is extraordinary in that role.
But I want to share with you.
I felt the same way.
I thought the film wasabsolutely beautiful, but I
started to get so angry aboutthe misogyny and the way she was
treated.
I had to stop watching it for awhile and, yeah, take a
breather, because, like you, itmade me angry, and maybe that's
(20:19):
just because there's so much ofthat in our country right now.
It was kind of reflecting backto Trump for me and it's
heartbreaking.
Women, I mean, we have beenfighting for decades, centuries,
to be worthy.
That in itself is heartbreaking.
Yes, yes, yeah.
(20:39):
Marilyn Monroe was anincredible woman, not only
because of her beauty.
In fact, I find her morebeautiful when I see photos of
her without any makeup.
Her hair is just like a normalperson's hair.
It's not in a big do.
Sometimes you can see a littlesliver of herself coming through
.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Well, I think there are a lot of people who talk
about her.
I mean, when I did the research, I did know someone who had met
her.
It's completely what you'dthink.
You know, norva Jean Baker wasso different from Marilyn Monroe
and Marilyn Monroe, with herbreathy voice and her mannerisms
and her platinum blonde hairand makeup, that was just surely
(21:21):
a performance and Norva JeanBaker liked to wear when she was
in New York going to theactor's studio.
She'd just wear blue jeans anda pullover sweater.
They have any makeup on, youknow.
She would wear dark glasses,she wore a man's fedora hat and
she could go on the subway, shecould go in taxis and I think
(21:42):
she went in bookstores and shewas sort of just like a real
person.
But she could certainly beglamorized.
I mean, she would have makeupand hair.
I think like three or fourhours to get her so perfect.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
You know, hearing you say that reminds me of
something I used to tell mystudents in the art room or in a
writing workshop.
I used to tell my students inthe art room or in a writing
workshop and that is when youhave difficulty expressing
yourself or, you know, if youwanted to call it writer's block
, or for some reason, you justare unable to put a brush to a
piece of canvas.
I always suggest to my studentsthat they think about an actor
(22:22):
and how they step into character.
They have their hair and theirmakeup done, Then they have all
these costumes put on andthey're around props and the art
direction that suits the periodand the time that they are in.
Now, if we were to look at thatthrough a creative standpoint,
before you sit down to write,before you stand in front of
that canvas, before you startdance practice or before you
(22:46):
start writing a piece of music,put on something that alerts
your soul that you are now goinginto creative mode, that you're
stepping into costume.
For instance, I have this oldblack cashmere robe that was
given to me by a friend and I'vehad it for 25 years or
(23:07):
something and it's covered inholes from where my cats have
been, you know, making biscuitson it and it's just got holes
everywhere.
But I find that when I want towrite a story not something that
I write daily, but write astory then I put on this robe
and that has become my costume.
(23:28):
It is my writing costume.
It alerts my whole being thatthis is what I'm doing now.
I'm not doing anything else.
I find it just helps me to stepinto that character of my
creative self.
What are your thoughts on this?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
You know, that's a really interesting idea because
you're in costume design and yousee things from a theatrical
performance point of view thatyou don't have to be inspired or
happy to go out and perform asif you're happy.
So if you're a teacher, ifyou're any kind of a public
person with responsibility, adoctor, a therapist, you put on
(24:06):
your casual robe or your hat oryour special glasses, you kind
of go out and perform that roleand you feel so much better.
And I have a very good friendwho is a theater director and
she understands the performativenature.
I remember we were talkingtogether.
(24:30):
She was so upset by the debatewith Trump and Biden where Biden
just wasn't prepped for it, Iguess, and she was saying you
know, he needed a director, heneeded somebody in the theater
to tell him to look up, engagewith the audience, speak clearly
.
It was like he had forgottenthat he was performing, whereas
(24:53):
Trump, of course, is always sortof performing and pretending.
Life often is performative.
So why not choose your costume?
I was also good friends withGloria Vanderbilt.
Gloria said that fashion is therespect you pay for other
people when you wear your nicethings for them, and I thought
(25:16):
that's such a beautifuldescription.
She always dressed up, whethershe was going to her son's
school for PTA.
Anderson Cooper said his motherwould show up in a fur coat and
purple something or other andeverybody was stunned by her but
also charmed, because Gloriawas very, she really loved
(25:39):
people and I thought that was sobeautiful.
I never heard that before.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Oh, I love that saying that you're not just
dressing up for yourself, you'redressing up to show your
respect for others.
That is beautiful.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
I know, yeah, and I often just wear my old clothes
around the house, but when I goout, when I teach, I try to do
something a little nicer.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
While we're speaking about clothes, there are a
couple of jackets that you wearthat are divine, and you have
them in a couple of differentcolors.
I wanted to ask you about thembecause you must feel fantastic
in them, because you look likeyou are confident when you're
wearing them.
They're both Issey Miyake.
Ah, no wonder they caught myeye, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
I have about 20 Issey Miyake outfits jackets and long
skirts and so many tops.
Whenever I'm in public, I amwearing Issey Miyake.
I take a travel on.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Well, his work is that of a creative.
I mean, what a talenteddesigner.
Absolutely stunning work.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Gloria gave me those Issey Miyake outfits.
He was her favorite designerand she bought me them.
They weren't cast off.
She actually bought me so manyoutfits from Issey Miyake.
It was embarrassing.
I would give her a signed bookor something which seems like a
small gesture compared to thesewonderful outfits.
(27:10):
Some of them I haven't worn ina long time.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Your friendship with Gloria Vanderbilt must have been
a very special friendship.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Yes, gloria was very supportive of writers, women
writers and women actors, andmostly a younger group of women
she befriended.
She had lunches and dinners ather apartment in New York.
She introduced women to oneanother, so there was a little
group of like glorious, gloriousgirls.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
I would love to have met her.
Okay, I'm going to go back towriting for a while.
What initially drew you toexperiment as a screenwriter and
playwright, and how was thisexperience?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Well, both of those were only because I was invited
by somebody.
I was invited by MartinScorsese and some other
directors, some other people, todo screenplays, to try to write
screenplays.
None of my screenplays wereever actually made into films,
so I don't remember how Scorsesemust have contacted my agent.
(28:18):
Of course he must havecontacted my agent.
And then, with writing plays, Iwas approached by the I think
it's New Plays of Lexington NewPlay Program and I accepted
their commission.
So I wrote several one-actplays that were put on together.
Then I went on later to writefull-length plays, but not so
(28:42):
many, but always because oftheater or it could be like a
non-profit organizationcontacted me.
I was not a natural playwright,I didn't start out at all as a
playwright and I'm not writingplays now.
I would probably write a playif somebody asked me again, but
in theater right now there's alot of focus on persons of color
(29:05):
and kind of woke issues and foran older white woman would not
really be anyone that they wouldcommission now.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
I enjoyed your play American Appetite.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah, American.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Appetites?
Yes, it was wonderful.
Was that Appetites?
Yes, it was wonderful.
Was that LA Theatre Works?
Yes, it was, and off the top ofmy head, I think it was Keith
Carradine, anna Gunn, gordonHunt directed it.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
It was an organization that did a lot of
my radio plays, yeah, but notfor a while.
I don't know what happened.
Sometimes some organizationjust um disappears.
When you've been around as longas I have, you can settle back
for your life.
There were direct womendirectors, and male directors
(29:54):
too that I worked with a lot,you know, year after year, and
then they drop out or theydisappear and suddenly it's 10
years later and you wonderwhatever happened to.
But they're still there, justthat they may be doing other
things.
The American theater enteredthe kind of crisis, I think,
(30:17):
because there was a backlashagainst white playwrights, like
white male playwrights and whitefemale playwrights to some
extent.
So it's much harder now andmany people have just given up,
but it's still fine to bewriting novels or poetry.
It's just that the theaterrepresents a different kind of
(30:38):
community.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yes, and unfortunately, with the pandemic
theater sure took a beating,absolutely.
Let's talk about teaching,because throughout your life
it's definitely been a staple.
I would love to know what youenjoy most about teaching.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Well, when I first was thinking about my life, I
thought I would be a teacher.
Probably when I was in middleschool already, and certainly
high school, I anticipated thatI would have a career as a
teacher.
Now I didn't really think orthink much about being a writer
and I've never been a writer.
It was like a freelance writer.
I've always had a job.
(31:17):
I've always been attached to aninstitution.
My first job was at theUniversity of Detroit, then I
was at the University of Windsor, then I came to Princeton and
now I still teach at Princetonone course.
But I also teach at NYU andI've taught at Berkeley and
Rutgers.
So teaching has been a constantin my life.
(31:39):
It's more like the social sideof my life and writing is very
solitary.
It's kind of groping anduncertain.
Lots of frustration.
When I teach on Mondays andTuesdays I have a real idea of
what is going to happen and Iprepare for it and I teach the
(32:02):
classes and there's a real senseof satisfaction.
I read the student work, I getall ready for it, but with my
own writing I don't really knowwhether tomorrow will be a
frustrating day, a disastrousday, a day I get nothing done,
or whether I actually getsomething done.
It's pretty much uncertain.
(32:22):
So we have the certainty ofteaching and I also like my
students a lot and I like mycolleagues, so that's like a
certain thing.
But then the writing is reallyuncertain.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I like what you said about keeping things separate,
and we're almost back to thatputting on a costume idea again.
You know, you dress up to goand teach and the minute you
come home you put your ratty oldclothes on because, let's face
it, the minute you sit down youwill be covered in cat hair,
something I heard you say.
(32:53):
I can't remember whichinterview it was, but you said
these words writers need theuplift of completing a story.
Can you expand on that idea?
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yes, working on a novel can be a long, long
journey and it's reallyuncertain and you can have very
depressing days or even weeks.
But if you work on a shortstory you will probably finish
it and then there's this feelingof satisfaction, as I said,
uplift.
Then if it's published and yousee it in print, that's another
(33:27):
level of achievement, whereaswith the novel people can get
stuck on novels literally foryears.
So it's nice to be doingsomething like you might write a
few chapters of a novel, thentake a little break and work on
some short fiction or poetry orreviews.
(33:48):
And sometimes I've done littlememoir pieces, my memoir.
I have two memoir books and oneof them is really just memoirs
to essays that were invited byeditors for me to write.
In other words, I didn't setout to write a memoir about
myself, it was one I put intogether Essays about my mother
(34:08):
and my father and my school,something that happened in high
school.
So that's good too, to kind oftake invitations from editors
and then you write somethingthat ultimately you can put into
a book.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
And here's another quote of yours, which is just
beautiful.
Art is the highest expressionof the human spirit.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Yes, all different kinds of arts.
Sometimes when I hear music, Ithink, well, that's the highest
expression.
Sometimes I read poetry, andlast night, with some friends, I
saw such a wonderful movie I'dseen before.
It's the conformist byberloucci.
That is a remarkable,remarkable movie, and he made it
when he was 31.
(34:52):
There there's no way that youcan describe the movie, because
it's all these visual scenes,one after another.
It's literally like a feast forthe eyes.
It's about really a terribleperson and a terrible time in
Italian history of fascism, butit's the most beautiful movie.
(35:13):
And so cinema is also this veryhigh art and they are the
highest expressions of the humanspirit definitely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Let's talk about books.
What are you currently reading?
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Oh, let's see.
Well, I'm reading a lot of mystudent work.
I have a lot of student work.
Then I have a writer friendwho's sending me her novel.
She's writing it, she'spublished.
I mean, she's not a studentwriter.
So I'm reading her novel, whichI just read the first couple
pages of and I'll be getting tosometime soon.
(36:06):
I read a lot of new books, so Itend to read new books.
I also reread.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Oh, I love to hear that you're a rereader, because
I am too, and I'm alwayssurprised when people say they
don't reread books.
Every time I pick up a book, Ilove it is like a gift that I'm
given over and over again, and Ialways find something new
between the pages.
It's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Well, I also I'm teaching my students, so I
assign classic work, so I'malways rereading Like I reread.
We all read the Turn of theScrew a couple weeks ago.
Then their assignment was towrite ghost stories really good
original ghost stories.
And then next week we'rereading Ray Carver and David
(36:52):
Foster Wallace.
So I'm always reading alongwith my students.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yes, I can imagine them keeping you very busy.
There's one last question Iwould love to ask you about,
Because you mentioned Bob Dylanearlier.
I'd love your thoughts onsongwriters who tell stories
within their work, such as BobDylan's song Hurricane from his
album Desire in 1976.
And this thought came to mebecause in Brokeheart Blues,
(37:18):
kind of at the top of eachchapter, you have parts of a
song that's apparently writtenabout John Reddy Hart.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Yes, the made up song yes.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
So regarding the song for the Broke Heart Blues,
which you wrote, my questionwould be what came first the
song, the characters, locations,the plot?
The song, the characters,locations, the plot.
And also I would just like yourthoughts on some of these
incredible songs we've hadwritten specifically with Bob
Dylan, maybe someone like RobbieRobertson when he wrote the
(37:52):
Night they Drove Old Dixie Down,which was fictional, whereas
Bob Dylan's Hurricane isactually nonfiction.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Well, we could probably talk for a long time
just about Bob Dylan.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yes, he is a remarkable writer.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
He is a storyteller.
He is really an Americanoriginal.
There's so many aspects ofDylan.
It's like he's about 12 peopleput together and so funny to
think of him being Bob Zimmermanfrom.
Is it Minnesota?
Yes, duluth, minnesota.
Like he lived in Minnesota.
(38:26):
He had a high school rock band.
Evidently it was just one ofthese loud teenage rock and roll
bands.
You know that you think well,they're never going to get
anywhere Like, oh, this is soawful, you know.
And then he sort of dropped thatand got really interested, of
course.
But then he so he lost interestin rock and roll but he saw
(38:50):
that folk music was the new waveof the future and he sort of
latched onto that and startedwriting these wonderful songs.
It's like he was a genius thatflourished proper sunshine and
water and nourishment, he justbloomed.
And I guess he left Minnesotaand came to New York.
(39:11):
He was around the coffee shopscene and he started there with
these folk songs and then hejust built up this career and
got better and better.
Then he sort of threw that awayand decided that he would go
different kind of music, withamplifying the music and writing
a different kind of not folkmusic anymore.
(39:34):
But he still told stories andhe still does now, so the
storytelling is really part ofhis whole career.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
His work is like a precious gift to this country.
Songs keep us captive.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
It's amazing Johnny Cash did that too Sort of
dramatic monologues like IKilled a man in Reno.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Dolly Parton kind of does the same thing.
She's done that throughout hercareer, telling wonderful
stories within her catalog ofsongs.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Yes, yes, and some people thought that when Johnny
Cash said he killed a man inReno, that he actually did that,
you know, like with a sort ofmixture With Bob Dylan probably
people were more sophisticatedand able to see this was like a
voice, not his voice.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Well, joyce, we have gone from Brokeheart Blues to
Marilyn Monroe, johnny Cash andBob Dylan.
That's pretty good in oneconversation.
Yeah, I think I started withabout I don't know 90 questions
and I had to just narrow themall down.
But I thank you so much forbeing on the show and for
allowing me the privilege ofchatting with you.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
That's fine, I wanted to just say that I had a lovely
week or so in Australia beforeCOVID.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
How were you in Australia?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Well, I went to the Melbourne Book Fair with my
husband he also had a book atthat time, so we both gave
little appearances.
Then we traveled around alittle, we had a guide and that
time so we both were had little,you know, gave little
appearances.
Then we traveled around and alittle we had a guide and
somebody was driving.
I loved it and the people.
People are so nice in australia.
We were so, so impressed.
(41:13):
And also the, the aboriginalart well, here we are.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
We've been talking about stories and storytelling,
and that that is exactly whatAboriginal art is about
storytelling.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
So interesting.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
I recommend looking up books about the Dreamtime.
It is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
The Aboriginal storytellers who are artists.
It's really a private languagebecause when you look at it, you
don't see anything like that.
You just see these geometricalforms.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
You know it's strange .
I've never thought ofAboriginal art as geometric
forms.
Maybe it's because I grew upwith that kind of art and the
stories behind their art.
Joyce, thank you so much forbeing here and it's been a
pleasure chatting with you.
It's so nice to meet you.
Bye-bye, You've been listeningto my conversation with Joyce
(42:08):
Carol Oates.
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(01:17):
You're listening to Episode 272.
Joyce Carol Oates is a recipientof the National Medal of
Humanities, the National BookCritics Circle, ivan Sandroff
Lifetime Achievement Award, theNational Book Award and the 2019
Jerusalem Prize, and has beenseveral times nominated for the
(01:41):
Pulitzer Prize.
She has written some of themost enduring fiction of our
time, including the nationalbestsellers we Were, the
Mulvaneys Blonde, which wasnominated for the National Book
Award, and the New York Timesbestseller the Falls, which won
the 2005 Prix Femina.
She is the Roger S BerlinDistinguished Professor of the
(02:02):
Humanities at PrincetonUniversity and has been a member
of the American Academy of Artsand Letters since 1978.
It's my pleasure to welcome youto my conversation with Joyce
Carol Oates.
Broke Heart Blues wasoriginally published in 1999 by
Dutton Books.
Why did Akashic Books republishthe book in 2024?
Speaker 2 (02:25):
It's a sort of surprise to me.
It wasn't my idea, to you know,to reprint it.
It was a publisher and they didsome letters of mine also which
were not my idea.
It's as if these things arejust happening.
But the cover is so interestingand for me to read the novel
after 25 years was also astrange experience.
(02:48):
Yes, I bet it was Well.
In rereading the novel I wasreally struck by how special a
world that was where we could be.
We could be adolescents at thattime in a way that we can't now
, I think, with the internet, ofcourse, and school shootings
(03:10):
and so much that's different.
There was never even a glimmerof an idea of a school shooting
when I went to high school, orin this novel.
Yeah, we're in a very sad placeRight, and of course the
community in my novel is asuburb of Buffalo, so it wasn't
really like a small town butwhat we call like an affluent
(03:35):
suburb, you know, and I thinkthat allowed for a certain
bubble, like a prosperity andaffluence which the citizens of
a place like that have.
As a student I was bused in fromthe country.
I didn't live in Williamsville,I lived in a place called
Millersport which was just outin the country and we were on a
(03:58):
small farm, so several people inthat area, students and I,
would get on the school bus andwe'd be driven about 15 miles or
so.
It was quite a distance toWilliamsville, so I came in from
the outside and so writingabout the novel I'm sort of
(04:18):
looking at it from the periphery, which I think is where most
writers and artists dwell iskind of at the edge of things.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
It's a beautiful place to be.
Yes, while reading Broke HeartBlues, I couldn't help but think
about the pressures placed onyoung people.
The way everyone perceives JohnReddy Hart is similar to that
of a celebrity.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Well, when I wrote the novel I was writing about
nostalgia, that very, verypowerful, bittersweet but
somewhat indefinable emotionthat we feel thinking about the
past, remembering in some caseswhen we were teenagers and we
were much younger and we didn'thave adult worries and
responsibilities.
(05:03):
So I wanted to write a novelabout American nostalgia for
high school and John Reddy Hartis.
Probably every high school hassomeone a little bit like him or
it could be a girl who arecharismatic and attractive, but
something happens to them.
(05:24):
Who are charismatic andattractive but something happens
to them.
They disappear or they die orjust something sets them apart.
So John Reddy Hart was mycharacter and then I develop him
from the perspective of peoplelooking at him.
But then in the second sectionof the novel we see what he's
(05:51):
really like and he's such adifferent person.
He's such a kind of ordinarynice person who's done good
things for other people but notfor himself.
John Reddy Hart, he's like hisheart.
He sort of gives his heart, hedefends his family, defends his
sister Charlene.
He's like his heart.
He sort of gives his heart, hedefends his family, defends his
sister Charlene, he defends hismother.
He sort of gives up his lifefor that family, taking the
(06:14):
blame for a murder he didn'thimself actually do, but he
takes the blame kind of silentlyand then he goes on with his
life.
And then when he's an adulthe's going to be 39 years old in
the novel he doesn't have hisown family, he doesn't have a
really permanent life, he's he'sMr Fix-It.
He fixes it for people.
(06:35):
But then the third part of thenovel, we're back with the high
school memories again, and nowthe students, the teenagers, are
all grown up, coming back forthe 30th reunion and they still
have these naive, adolescentideas about John Hart.
They have no idea how sad hislife is, how diminished his life
(06:56):
is.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
So I think I'm always interested in the irony of how
people perceive us and how weperceive ourselves, and that is
probably strongest in the secondpart of the book, where we see
John Reddy Hart as this MrFix-It.
He's living in a small town,he's reckoning with himself and
perhaps wondering wheneverything is going to go to
(07:20):
hell in a handbasket, becausethat's how he perceives himself,
almost as not worthy.
And in the last part of thebook.
What I found fascinating wasthat you left the fate of John
Reddy Hart up to the reader.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yeah, yeah, well, it's so touching.
I was thinking of my own fathertoo.
My father, frederick Oates, wasa handyman like Mr Fix-It.
He was sort of Mr Fix-It hecould paint, he could do
carpentry, even some simpleelectrical wiring he could do.
(07:57):
I don't say that his life wassad, but it was a very
restrained life.
He had to quit school when hewas only in eighth grade and he
had to go to work.
So he's sort of like John Hart.
He gave up so much of his lifefor his family.
My grandmother, my father'smother, had been abandoned by
her husband at a time when itwasn't really easy for women to
(08:21):
get employment.
Women couldn't have careers.
Really About all women might dois teach, and the teacher's
salaries were very low.
So my father was sort of likeJohn Hart.
When I wrote about him anddescribed him I was sort of
thinking of my own father whoultimately, his life wasn't that
(08:41):
sad.
When he retired from working ina factory he went back to
school.
He took, you know, adulteducation courses at Buffalo.
So I remember thinking oflooking at photographs of him
and thinking it's just kind of asad life, you know, when you're
so relatively poor and theoptions are so small and sadly
(09:05):
that's true for so many peopleliving in rural America.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Are there any other characters in Brokart Blues who
you've painted with traits orcharacteristics from other
members of your family?
Speaker 2 (09:17):
Well, I don't think anybody else in the family is
based on anyone.
Dahlia Howard is nothing likemy mother.
I wrote a whole novel based onmy mother called Missing man.
I have that book right here.
Oh, that's my valentine to mydear mother.
My mother was extremely modest,but both my parents and my
(09:39):
grandmother also were reallyvery nice, uncomplaining people
of another era.
I think that they would be soshocked by today.
You know it was a time whenpoliticians didn't say such
awful things.
Politicians tended to be veryidealistic, maybe hypocritical,
(10:02):
but you know they gave speechesthat were all about unifying in
America.
And today, when you hear Trumpspewing literal hatred, I find
it actually still shocking afteryears.
You know we can remember whenpolitical leaders were
idealistic.
I mean George W Bush wouldnever say things like that.
(10:24):
You know more like a gentleman.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
Yes, I agree.
My father-in-law was aCalifornia Republican state
senator and while I'm far to theleft, he was not like a
Republican of today.
We'd have great conversationsand he would educate me and I'd
educate him about environmentalissues especially.
And when he passed away, at hisfuneral, there must have been
(10:50):
nearly 800 people there,including Willie Brown from San
Francisco, duke Majan, jerryBrown, pete Wilson.
You know from both sides it waslike a bipartisan funeral and I
think he would just be so sadto see what's happening now.
He would be shocked.
Where was his district Backthen?
(11:11):
It was from LAX all the waydown to Long Beach and Catalina.
But you know, it changes allthe time.
The districts change constantly.
It's strange because, when Ithink of it, he died in 2009.
And if I think about how muchthe Republican Party has changed
since then, and drasticallyover the last eight years, it's
(11:32):
almost unbelievable.
It is not the Republican Partythat it was, that's for sure.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
I know it sounded as if you're married into a very
nice family.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Yes, I am, and I really loved my father-in-law.
He was a wonderful man.
Yes, I am, and I really lovedmy father-in-law.
He was a wonderful man.
Okay, let's get back to yourbooks Now.
You have a remarkable catalogof writing, from plays to operas
, novels and essays.
I was wondering if you sense apersonal inner theme that
resonates throughout your work.
(12:01):
I have my own thoughts aboutthis, but I would love to hear
your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Well, I think I often write about people who are
either male or female and itcould be adolescents too, who
feel very lonely and very aloneand they're sort of observing
life and they feel kind of onthe outside.
I think that I'm still writingabout from that perspective.
(12:28):
It's kind of a tonal feelingand I have an ongoing interest
in the visual world.
I like to describe places.
I like to describe landscape,trees and fields and creeks.
There's always a river or acanal going through my writing.
So when writing about JohnReddy Hart when he's living
(12:51):
alone in this somewhat smalltown in Western New York, I've
kind of put myself in thatperspective.
And even writing about MarilynMonroe from her perspective, she
became extreme.
Norma Jean Baker becameextremely isolated in her own
celebrity where people looked ather but saw only Marilyn Monroe
(13:13):
and didn't really care abouther.
It was more appropriating theglamour of Marilyn Monroe for
themselves.
And she did have love affairsand she married three times.
The marriages all seem to be toMarilyn Monroe rather than the
(13:34):
actual person.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Your words reminded me of kind of what we were
talking about earlier about theabsurdity of American celebrity,
but I like what you said thatit's not about Marilyn, it's
about her being reflected backonto them.
That's given me a lot to thinkabout.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yes, and when you're put on a pedestal, when you're
like the object, you can feelvery lonely because people sort
of isolate you and they don'treally want to think that you're
just like them or normal,because they just want to, they
want to idolize or objectifysomeone, but then they but they
(14:12):
also turn on people like thattoo really quickly.
Well, albus presley had asimilar experience because he
was kind of calcified andcocooned inside his celebrity.
He's very, but probably just,sort of an ordinary guy who
would like to be friends withhis friends from teenage years
(14:33):
and go out and have a pizza, youknow, hang out with his friends
.
But once you become a celebritylike Presley, you literally
can't go out anymore becauseit's a swamp with people.
And the same thing is true, say, with Bob Dylan or anyone who's
a celebrity they can't go outanymore, they're sort of hiding
(14:56):
away, and if we look at someonelike Elvis Presley and his
children and their children, Ican't help but think of
inherited suffering.
It's very interesting.
I was once out to dinner with afriend in Los Angeles and he
was a friend of Al Pacino.
So we had dinner with Al Pacinoand then we were walking across
(15:18):
the hotel lobby and I saw thisflash onto Al Pacino.
They stared at him and some ofthem just came walking right
toward him.
It was like moths.
He didn't look at them, henever made eye contact.
He kind of quickly went in anelevator.
But one man came forward withhis son.
(15:39):
He said Mr Pacino, can I haveyour autograph?
Very aggressively he says formy son.
And he kind of pushed his sonand I thought, oh my God, that's
what Al Pacino has to live with.
He can't go out in public.
But Al Pacino handled it verygraciously.
He signed this piece of paper.
He never made eye contact, hegot in the elevator and we all
(16:02):
disappeared.
But I really had a whiff of thefeeling of what that would be
like.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, I've seen it a few times when I worked as a
costume designer and stylist inLA.
When the door closed and it wasjust me alone with a celebrity,
some of them would be like theyrevert to their childhood.
They're just kind of giggly andfunny.
I remember thinking it wasstrangely charming.
Others you can just see they'rea bit drained, others just kind
(16:30):
of laugh it off or shrug it off.
It is fascinating.
And if I brought this back toJohn Reddy Hart in Broke Heart
Blues, it's a character who'snever really allowed to be a
child.
He's looking after his siblings, he's looking after his mother.
He's looking after his motherand he took the blame for
something that he didn't do toprotect those he loved.
(16:51):
John Reddy Hart never reallygot to experience being a child.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Yes, that's true.
How were you working withcelebrities?
Speaker 1 (16:59):
I worked as a stylist and costume designer in Los
Angeles, mainly for music peoplethe music industry, commercials
sometimes tours, so I was verylucky I got to work with David
Bowie, madonna, tina Turner,george Michael I mean a whole
(17:20):
lot of different people andsomeone like Diane Keaton, the
Coen brothers, david Fincher.
It was a remarkable time in mylife.
I learned a lot about humanbehavior.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
Wonderful, wonderful.
Yes, love the Coen brothersmovies and I did meet Diane
Keaton.
I met her with Larry Grobel andwith Al Pacino.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Yes, when you mentioned Al Pacino, I figured
you must have met Diane Keaton.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
Yeah, she was even more down to earth than just a
plain nice person.
Yes and she's smart.
Diane Keaton didn't really seemto have that glamour or
celebrity.
She seemed much more like justa person.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
I think she's a celebrity who has held onto her
autonomy while being a person.
I think she's a celebrity whohas held on to her autonomy
while being a celebrity.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, and when I met her she was really talking about
her children.
She adopted a couple ofchildren.
That seemed to be really theemotional focus of her life, not
her career, but she just reallywas like a family person.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
And highly creative too.
You spoke about Marilyn Monroeearlier, and I would love to
hear about the adaptation ofyour book Blonde to film and
co-writing with director AndrewDominick.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Well, andrew Dominick contacted me quite a long time
ago, I'm guessing maybe around2000.
He had that project in mind fora long time.
He needed to get financing.
So he sent me the screenplaythat he had adapted from the
novel and I thought it wasexcellent.
It's just the narrow band ofthe novel.
(18:57):
It doesn't take in the wholenovel, naturally.
I mean that's the way it shouldbe.
But he did it very well and Italked to him on the phone maybe
twice or three times.
We have never met.
I've seen his movies.
The assassination of JesseJames, I think, is really
excellent, an early stage beforethe final version, and we
(19:28):
talked a little bit about it.
But I don't think henecessarily got any advice from
me.
You know, I found it very tenseto watch.
I have never seen it all theway through.
I usually have to stop and thencome back to it.
So I've seen it maybe threetimes but I could never sit down
and watch it with friends.
It's too painful and maybe it'sAna de Armas' acting is so
(19:52):
powerful.
It was like too real, you know,too real.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Yes, she is extraordinary in that role.
But I want to share with you.
I felt the same way.
I thought the film wasabsolutely beautiful, but I
started to get so angry aboutthe misogyny and the way she was
treated.
I had to stop watching it for awhile and, yeah, take a
breather, because, like you, itmade me angry, and maybe that's
(20:19):
just because there's so much ofthat in our country right now.
It was kind of reflecting backto Trump for me and it's
heartbreaking.
Women, I mean, we have beenfighting for decades, centuries,
to be worthy.
That in itself is heartbreaking.
Yes, yes, yeah.
(20:39):
Marilyn Monroe was anincredible woman, not only
because of her beauty.
In fact, I find her morebeautiful when I see photos of
her without any makeup.
Her hair is just like a normalperson's hair.
It's not in a big do.
Sometimes you can see a littlesliver of herself coming through
.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Well, I think there are a lot of people who talk
about her.
I mean, when I did the research, I did know someone who had met
her.
It's completely what you'dthink.
You know, norva Jean Baker wasso different from Marilyn Monroe
and Marilyn Monroe, with herbreathy voice and her mannerisms
and her platinum blonde hairand makeup, that was just surely
(21:21):
a performance and Norva JeanBaker liked to wear when she was
in New York going to theactor's studio.
She'd just wear blue jeans anda pullover sweater.
They have any makeup on, youknow.
She would wear dark glasses,she wore a man's fedora hat and
she could go on the subway, shecould go in taxis and I think
(21:42):
she went in bookstores and shewas sort of just like a real
person.
But she could certainly beglamorized.
I mean, she would have makeupand hair.
I think like three or fourhours to get her so perfect.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
You know, hearing you say that reminds me of
something I used to tell mystudents in the art room or in a
writing workshop.
I used to tell my students inthe art room or in a writing
workshop and that is when youhave difficulty expressing
yourself or, you know, if youwanted to call it writer's block
, or for some reason, you justare unable to put a brush to a
piece of canvas.
I always suggest to my studentsthat they think about an actor
(22:22):
and how they step into character.
They have their hair and theirmakeup done, Then they have all
these costumes put on andthey're around props and the art
direction that suits the periodand the time that they are in.
Now, if we were to look at thatthrough a creative standpoint,
before you sit down to write,before you stand in front of
that canvas, before you startdance practice or before you
(22:46):
start writing a piece of music,put on something that alerts
your soul that you are now goinginto creative mode, that you're
stepping into costume.
For instance, I have this oldblack cashmere robe that was
given to me by a friend and I'vehad it for 25 years or
(23:07):
something and it's covered inholes from where my cats have
been, you know, making biscuitson it and it's just got holes
everywhere.
But I find that when I want towrite a story not something that
I write daily, but write astory then I put on this robe
and that has become my costume.
(23:28):
It is my writing costume.
It alerts my whole being thatthis is what I'm doing now.
I'm not doing anything else.
I find it just helps me to stepinto that character of my
creative self.
What are your thoughts on this?
Speaker 2 (23:43):
You know, that's a really interesting idea because
you're in costume design and yousee things from a theatrical
performance point of view thatyou don't have to be inspired or
happy to go out and perform asif you're happy.
So if you're a teacher, ifyou're any kind of a public
person with responsibility, adoctor, a therapist, you put on
(24:06):
your casual robe or your hat oryour special glasses, you kind
of go out and perform that roleand you feel so much better.
And I have a very good friendwho is a theater director and
she understands the performativenature.
I remember we were talkingtogether.
(24:30):
She was so upset by the debatewith Trump and Biden where Biden
just wasn't prepped for it, Iguess, and she was saying you
know, he needed a director, heneeded somebody in the theater
to tell him to look up, engagewith the audience, speak clearly
.
It was like he had forgottenthat he was performing, whereas
(24:53):
Trump, of course, is always sortof performing and pretending.
Life often is performative.
So why not choose your costume?
I was also good friends withGloria Vanderbilt.
Gloria said that fashion is therespect you pay for other
people when you wear your nicethings for them, and I thought
(25:16):
that's such a beautifuldescription.
She always dressed up, whethershe was going to her son's
school for PTA.
Anderson Cooper said his motherwould show up in a fur coat and
purple something or other andeverybody was stunned by her but
also charmed, because Gloriawas very, she really loved
(25:39):
people and I thought that was sobeautiful.
I never heard that before.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Oh, I love that saying that you're not just
dressing up for yourself, you'redressing up to show your
respect for others.
That is beautiful.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
I know, yeah, and I often just wear my old clothes
around the house, but when I goout, when I teach, I try to do
something a little nicer.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
While we're speaking about clothes, there are a
couple of jackets that you wearthat are divine, and you have
them in a couple of differentcolors.
I wanted to ask you about thembecause you must feel fantastic
in them, because you look likeyou are confident when you're
wearing them.
They're both Issey Miyake.
Ah, no wonder they caught myeye, yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
I have about 20 Issey Miyake outfits jackets and long
skirts and so many tops.
Whenever I'm in public, I amwearing Issey Miyake.
I take a travel on.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Well, his work is that of a creative.
I mean, what a talenteddesigner.
Absolutely stunning work.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Gloria gave me those Issey Miyake outfits.
He was her favorite designerand she bought me them.
They weren't cast off.
She actually bought me so manyoutfits from Issey Miyake.
It was embarrassing.
I would give her a signed bookor something which seems like a
small gesture compared to thesewonderful outfits.
(27:10):
Some of them I haven't worn ina long time.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Your friendship with Gloria Vanderbilt must have been
a very special friendship.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Yes, gloria was very supportive of writers, women
writers and women actors, andmostly a younger group of women
she befriended.
She had lunches and dinners ather apartment in New York.
She introduced women to oneanother, so there was a little
group of like glorious, gloriousgirls.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
I would love to have met her.
Okay, I'm going to go back towriting for a while.
What initially drew you toexperiment as a screenwriter and
playwright, and how was thisexperience?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Well, both of those were only because I was invited
by somebody.
I was invited by MartinScorsese and some other
directors, some other people, todo screenplays, to try to write
screenplays.
None of my screenplays wereever actually made into films,
so I don't remember how Scorsesemust have contacted my agent.
(28:18):
Of course he must havecontacted my agent.
And then, with writing plays, Iwas approached by the I think
it's New Plays of Lexington NewPlay Program and I accepted
their commission.
So I wrote several one-actplays that were put on together.
Then I went on later to writefull-length plays, but not so
(28:42):
many, but always because oftheater or it could be like a
non-profit organizationcontacted me.
I was not a natural playwright,I didn't start out at all as a
playwright and I'm not writingplays now.
I would probably write a playif somebody asked me again, but
in theater right now there's alot of focus on persons of color
(29:05):
and kind of woke issues and foran older white woman would not
really be anyone that they wouldcommission now.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
I enjoyed your play American Appetite.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
Yeah, American.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Appetites?
Yes, it was wonderful.
Was that Appetites?
Yes, it was wonderful.
Was that LA Theatre Works?
Yes, it was, and off the top ofmy head, I think it was Keith
Carradine, anna Gunn, gordonHunt directed it.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
It was an organization that did a lot of
my radio plays, yeah, but notfor a while.
I don't know what happened.
Sometimes some organizationjust um disappears.
When you've been around as longas I have, you can settle back
for your life.
There were direct womendirectors, and male directors
(29:54):
too that I worked with a lot,you know, year after year, and
then they drop out or theydisappear and suddenly it's 10
years later and you wonderwhatever happened to.
But they're still there, justthat they may be doing other
things.
The American theater enteredthe kind of crisis, I think,
(30:17):
because there was a backlashagainst white playwrights, like
white male playwrights and whitefemale playwrights to some
extent.
So it's much harder now andmany people have just given up,
but it's still fine to bewriting novels or poetry.
It's just that the theaterrepresents a different kind of
(30:38):
community.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yes, and unfortunately, with the pandemic
theater sure took a beating,absolutely.
Let's talk about teaching,because throughout your life
it's definitely been a staple.
I would love to know what youenjoy most about teaching.
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Well, when I first was thinking about my life, I
thought I would be a teacher.
Probably when I was in middleschool already, and certainly
high school, I anticipated thatI would have a career as a
teacher.
Now I didn't really think orthink much about being a writer
and I've never been a writer.
It was like a freelance writer.
I've always had a job.
(31:17):
I've always been attached to aninstitution.
My first job was at theUniversity of Detroit, then I
was at the University of Windsor, then I came to Princeton and
now I still teach at Princetonone course.
But I also teach at NYU andI've taught at Berkeley and
Rutgers.
So teaching has been a constantin my life.
(31:39):
It's more like the social sideof my life and writing is very
solitary.
It's kind of groping anduncertain.
Lots of frustration.
When I teach on Mondays andTuesdays I have a real idea of
what is going to happen and Iprepare for it and I teach the
(32:02):
classes and there's a real senseof satisfaction.
I read the student work, I getall ready for it, but with my
own writing I don't really knowwhether tomorrow will be a
frustrating day, a disastrousday, a day I get nothing done,
or whether I actually getsomething done.
It's pretty much uncertain.
(32:22):
So we have the certainty ofteaching and I also like my
students a lot and I like mycolleagues, so that's like a
certain thing.
But then the writing is reallyuncertain.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I like what you said about keeping things separate,
and we're almost back to thatputting on a costume idea again.
You know, you dress up to goand teach and the minute you
come home you put your ratty oldclothes on because, let's face
it, the minute you sit down youwill be covered in cat hair,
something I heard you say.
(32:53):
I can't remember whichinterview it was, but you said
these words writers need theuplift of completing a story.
Can you expand on that idea?
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Yes, working on a novel can be a long, long
journey and it's reallyuncertain and you can have very
depressing days or even weeks.
But if you work on a shortstory you will probably finish
it and then there's this feelingof satisfaction, as I said,
uplift.
Then if it's published and yousee it in print, that's another
(33:27):
level of achievement, whereaswith the novel people can get
stuck on novels literally foryears.
So it's nice to be doingsomething like you might write a
few chapters of a novel, thentake a little break and work on
some short fiction or poetry orreviews.
(33:48):
And sometimes I've done littlememoir pieces, my memoir.
I have two memoir books and oneof them is really just memoirs
to essays that were invited byeditors for me to write.
In other words, I didn't setout to write a memoir about
myself, it was one I put intogether Essays about my mother
(34:08):
and my father and my school,something that happened in high
school.
So that's good too, to kind oftake invitations from editors
and then you write somethingthat ultimately you can put into
a book.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
And here's another quote of yours, which is just
beautiful.
Art is the highest expressionof the human spirit.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Yes, all different kinds of arts.
Sometimes when I hear music, Ithink, well, that's the highest
expression.
Sometimes I read poetry, andlast night, with some friends, I
saw such a wonderful movie I'dseen before.
It's the conformist byberloucci.
That is a remarkable,remarkable movie, and he made it
when he was 31.
(34:52):
There there's no way that youcan describe the movie, because
it's all these visual scenes,one after another.
It's literally like a feast forthe eyes.
It's about really a terribleperson and a terrible time in
Italian history of fascism, butit's the most beautiful movie.
(35:13):
And so cinema is also this veryhigh art and they are the
highest expressions of the humanspirit definitely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Let's talk about books.
What are you currently reading?
Speaker 2 (35:27):
Oh, let's see.
Well, I'm reading a lot of mystudent work.
I have a lot of student work.
Then I have a writer friendwho's sending me her novel.
She's writing it, she'spublished.
I mean, she's not a studentwriter.
So I'm reading her novel, whichI just read the first couple
pages of and I'll be getting tosometime soon.
(36:06):
I read a lot of new books, so Itend to read new books.
I also reread.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Oh, I love to hear that you're a rereader, because
I am too, and I'm alwayssurprised when people say they
don't reread books.
Every time I pick up a book, Ilove it is like a gift that I'm
given over and over again, and Ialways find something new
between the pages.
It's wonderful.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Well, I also I'm teaching my students, so I
assign classic work, so I'malways rereading Like I reread.
We all read the Turn of theScrew a couple weeks ago.
Then their assignment was towrite ghost stories really good
original ghost stories.
And then next week we'rereading Ray Carver and David
(36:52):
Foster Wallace.
So I'm always reading alongwith my students.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Yes, I can imagine them keeping you very busy.
There's one last question Iwould love to ask you about,
Because you mentioned Bob Dylanearlier.
I'd love your thoughts onsongwriters who tell stories
within their work, such as BobDylan's song Hurricane from his
album Desire in 1976.
And this thought came to mebecause in Brokeheart Blues,
(37:18):
kind of at the top of eachchapter, you have parts of a
song that's apparently writtenabout John Reddy Hart.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Yes, the made up song yes.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
So regarding the song for the Broke Heart Blues,
which you wrote, my questionwould be what came first the
song, the characters, locations,the plot?
The song, the characters,locations, the plot.
And also I would just like yourthoughts on some of these
incredible songs we've hadwritten specifically with Bob
Dylan, maybe someone like RobbieRobertson when he wrote the
(37:52):
Night they Drove Old Dixie Down,which was fictional, whereas
Bob Dylan's Hurricane isactually nonfiction.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
Well, we could probably talk for a long time
just about Bob Dylan.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yes, he is a remarkable writer.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
He is a storyteller.
He is really an Americanoriginal.
There's so many aspects ofDylan.
It's like he's about 12 peopleput together and so funny to
think of him being Bob Zimmermanfrom.
Is it Minnesota?
Yes, duluth, minnesota.
Like he lived in Minnesota.
(38:26):
He had a high school rock band.
Evidently it was just one ofthese loud teenage rock and roll
bands.
You know that you think well,they're never going to get
anywhere Like, oh, this is soawful, you know.
And then he sort of dropped thatand got really interested, of
course.
But then he so he lost interestin rock and roll but he saw
(38:50):
that folk music was the new waveof the future and he sort of
latched onto that and startedwriting these wonderful songs.
It's like he was a genius thatflourished proper sunshine and
water and nourishment, he justbloomed.
And I guess he left Minnesotaand came to New York.
(39:11):
He was around the coffee shopscene and he started there with
these folk songs and then hejust built up this career and
got better and better.
Then he sort of threw that awayand decided that he would go
different kind of music, withamplifying the music and writing
a different kind of not folkmusic anymore.
(39:34):
But he still told stories andhe still does now, so the
storytelling is really part ofhis whole career.
Speaker 1 (39:42):
His work is like a precious gift to this country.
Songs keep us captive.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
It's amazing Johnny Cash did that too Sort of
dramatic monologues like IKilled a man in Reno.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Dolly Parton kind of does the same thing.
She's done that throughout hercareer, telling wonderful
stories within her catalog ofsongs.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
Yes, yes, and some people thought that when Johnny
Cash said he killed a man inReno, that he actually did that,
you know, like with a sort ofmixture With Bob Dylan probably
people were more sophisticatedand able to see this was like a
voice, not his voice.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Well, joyce, we have gone from Brokeheart Blues to
Marilyn Monroe, johnny Cash andBob Dylan.
That's pretty good in oneconversation.
Yeah, I think I started withabout I don't know 90 questions
and I had to just narrow themall down.
But I thank you so much forbeing on the show and for
allowing me the privilege ofchatting with you.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
That's fine, I wanted to just say that I had a lovely
week or so in Australia beforeCOVID.
Speaker 1 (40:50):
How were you in Australia?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Well, I went to the Melbourne Book Fair with my
husband he also had a book atthat time, so we both gave
little appearances.
Then we traveled around alittle, we had a guide and that
time so we both were had little,you know, gave little
appearances.
Then we traveled around and alittle we had a guide and
somebody was driving.
I loved it and the people.
People are so nice in australia.
We were so, so impressed.
(41:13):
And also the, the aboriginalart well, here we are.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
We've been talking about stories and storytelling,
and that that is exactly whatAboriginal art is about
storytelling.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
So interesting.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
I recommend looking up books about the Dreamtime.
It is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
The Aboriginal storytellers who are artists.
It's really a private languagebecause when you look at it, you
don't see anything like that.
You just see these geometricalforms.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
You know it's strange .
I've never thought ofAboriginal art as geometric
forms.
Maybe it's because I grew upwith that kind of art and the
stories behind their art.
Joyce, thank you so much forbeing here and it's been a
pleasure chatting with you.
It's so nice to meet you.
Bye-bye, You've been listeningto my conversation with Joyce
(42:08):
Carol Oates.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media, and remember to
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
thebookshoppodcastcom and makesure to subscribe and leave a
(42:28):
review wherever you listen tothe show.
You can also follow me at MandyJackson Beverly on X, Instagram
and Facebook and on YouTube atthe Bookshop Podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
the contact form atthebookshoppodcastcom.
(42:49):
The Bookshop Podcast is writtenand produced by me, Mandy
Jackson-Beverly, Theme musicprovided by Brian Beverly,
executive assistant to Mandy,Adrian Otterhan, and graphic
design by Francis Peralla.
Thanks for listening and I'llsee you next time you.
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