December 16, 2024 • 41 mins
Jennifer Clement is President Emerita of the human rights and freedom of expression organization PEN International and the only woman to hold the office of President (2015-2021) since the organization was founded in 1921. Under her leadership, the groundbreaking PEN International Women’s Manifesto and The Democracy of the Imagination Manifesto were created. As President of PEN Mexico (2009-2012), Clement was instrumental in changing the law to make the crime of killing a journalist a federal crime.
Clement is the author of the novels A True Story Based on Lies, The Poison That Fascinates, Prayers for the Stolen, Gun Love, and Stormy People, as well as several poetry books, including Poems and Errors, published by Kaunitz-Olsson in Sweden. Clement also wrote the acclaimed memoirs Widow Basquiat on New York City in the early 1980s and the painter Jean-Michel Basquiat, which NPR named the best book of 2015 in seven different categories, and The Promised Party on her life in Mexico City and New York. Clement’s books have been translated into 38 languages and have covered topics such as the stealing of little girls in Mexico, the effects of gun violence, and the trafficking of guns into Mexico and Central America, as well as writing about her life in the art worlds of Mexico and New York.
Clement is the recipient of Guggenheim, NEA, MacDowell, and Santa Maddalena Fellowships, and her books have twice been a New York Times Editor’s Choice Book. Prayers for the Stolen was the recipient of the Grand Prix des Lectrices Lyceenes de ELLE(sponsored by ELLE Magazine, the French Ministry of Education and the Maison des écrivains et de la littérature) and a New Statesman Book of the Year, picked by the Nobel Laureate Kazuo Ishiguro. Gun Love was an Oprah Book Club Selection, National Book Award, and Aspen Words Literary Prize finalist. Among other publications, Time magazine named it one of the top 10 books of 2018. At NYU, she was the commencement speaker for the Gallatin graduates 2017 and gave the Lectio Magistralis in Florence, Italy, for the Premio Gregor von Rezzori. Clement is a member of Mexico’s prestigious Sistema Nacional de Creadores de Arte.
For Clement’s work in human rights, she was awarded the HIP Award for contribution to Latino communities by the Hispanics in Philanthropy (HIP) Organization, and she was also the recipient of the Sara Curry Humanitarian Award. Most recently, she was given the 2023 Freedom of Expression Honorary title on World Press Day by Brussels University Alliance VUB and ULB in partnership with the European Commission, European Endowment for Democracy, and UNESCO, among others. Other laureates include Svetlana Alexievich, Zhang Zhan, Ahmet Altan, Daphne Caruana Galizia, and Raif Badawi.
Jennifer Clement was raised in Mexico, where she lives. She and her sister Barbara Sibley founded and directed the San Miguel Poetry Week. Clement has a double major in anthropology and English Literature from New York University (Gallatin) and an MFA from the University of Southern Maine (Stonecoast). She was named a Distinguished Alumna by the Kingswood Cranbrook School.
Jennifer Clement
The Promised Party, Jennifer Clement
A Man
Mark as Played
Transcript
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Okay, let's get on with theshow.
You're listening to Episode 277.
Jennifer Clement is PresidentEmerita of the Human Rights and
Freedom of ExpressionOrganization PEN International
(02:19):
and the only woman to hold theoffice of President since the
organization was founded in 1921.
Under her leadership, thegroundbreaking PEN International
Women's Manifesto and theDemocracy of the Imagination
Manifesto were created.
As president of PEN Mexico from2009 to 2012, clement was
(02:41):
instrumental in changing the lawto make the crime of killing a
journalist a federal crime.
Clement is the author of thenovels A True Story Based on
Lies, the Poison that Fascinates, prayers for the Stolen Gun,
love and Stormy People, as wellas several poetry books,
including Poems and Errors,published by Knuts Olsson in
(03:03):
Sweden, including Poems andErrors published by Knuts Olsson
in Sweden.
Clement also wrote theacclaimed memoir Widow Basquiat
about New York City in the early80s and the painter Jean-Michel
Basquiat, which NPR named BestBook of 2015 in seven different
categories.
Clement's books have beentranslated into 38 languages and
have covered topics such as thestealing of little girls in
(03:25):
Mexico, the effects of gunviolence and trafficking of guns
into Mexico and Central America, as well as writing about her
life in the art worlds of Mexicoand New York.
Clement is the recipient of theGuggenheim, nea, mcdowell and
Santa Madalena fellowships, andher books have twice been a New
(03:45):
York Times Editor's Choice book.
Prayers for the Stolen was therecipient of the Grand Prix de
Lettrice Le Ciel de L and a NewStatesman Book of the Year,
picked by the Nobel laureateKazuo Ishiguro.
Gun Love was an Oprah Clubselection, as well as being a
National Book Award and AspenAwards Literary Prize finalist.
(04:07):
Time magazine, among otherpublications, named it one of
the top 10 books of 2018.
At NYU, she was thecommencement speaker for the
Gallatin graduates of 2017, andshe gave the Lectio Magistralis
in Florence, italy, for thePremier Gregor von Ressori.
Clement is a member of Mexico'sprestigious Sistema Nacional de
(04:30):
Criadores de Arte.
For Clement's work in humanrights, she was awarded the HIP
Award for contribution to Latinocommunities by the Hispanics in
Philanthropy organization, aswell as being the recipient of
the Sarah Curry HumanitarianAward.
Most recently, she was giventhe 2023 Freedom of Expression
(04:50):
Honorary title on the occasionof World Press Day by Brussels
University Alliance, vub and ULB, in partnerships with the
European Commission, europeanEndowment for Democracy and
UNESCO, among others.
Jennifer Clement was raised inMexico, where she lives, and has
a double major in anthropologyand English literature from NYU
(05:13):
and an MFA from the Universityof Southern Maine.
She was named a DistinguishedAlumni by the Kingswood
Cranbrook School.
Jennifer's recent book istitled the Promise Party Carlo
Basquiat and Me.
Hi, jennifer, and welcome tothe show.
It's such an honor to have youhere.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Oh, Mandy, I'm so thrilled to be invited to your
podcast.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
It's my pleasure and I need to thank our mutual
friend who introduced us, theauthor and poet, susan
Scolati-Florence.
Thank you, susan.
Yes, I adore your latest book,a Promise Party.
It is absolutely beautiful andwe'll get into that a little
later, but I would love to startby learning about you and your
(05:57):
transition from dancing topoetry and novel writing.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Well, I had always written poetry as a child and
poetry was something valued inmy home.
Especially my father was veryinto literature and poetry.
So I began writing poetry and Inever sort of thought of it as
something that I would do.
I always thought of it assomething that was just an
essential part of myself.
(06:21):
But I had always danced.
I started ballet sort of likeoften happens with little girls,
you know, maybe four or five orsomething like that.
So I always loved the dancing.
And then I actually went to NewYork as a dancer and then, being
there, I had a dream.
I really wondered should Iwrite that in my memoir?
(06:42):
Is it too strange?
But I thought, well, it's thetruth, that's actually what
happened.
And since then I've always beenextremely interested by this
acting on dreams and in fact inthe Bible there are 21 dreams
and dreams that are acted upon.
And so the dream sort of saidto me that that was child's play
, that was wanting to staychildlike and, in a way, not
(07:06):
grow up, you know.
So I acted on the dream andthen decided, yeah, that really
my destiny was to write, and Iwas the most surprised of all
that I could write plot andcharacter, because I just wrote
poetry and then I thought, well,I'll try and write a novel, and
then I was able to.
So I was also surprised that Icould do that.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I enjoy hearing about other people's dreams.
I've been journaling my dreamsfor over 30 years now probably
35 years and I met with aJungian analyst I think for over
10 years.
She was fantastic and what Ifound was Jung completely
understood the creative mind.
Dreams give us clues into ourdaily life.
(07:49):
Have you acted on one?
Oh, yes, I think.
Once you understand how dreamswork and the symbolism in your
dreams, you can't help but notact on them.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Exactly yeah, yeah.
So I decided to put it in thebook.
I just thought well, it'sactually the truth.
I had a dream, and the dreamtold me that this was child's
play, that I needed to grow up,that I wasn't the swan or the
nutcracker or the princess.
I had to grow up.
So I understood that dream.
(08:20):
Yeah, and then I transferredout of the dance department and
went to another part of NYU anddid two degrees.
I did anthropology and Englishliterature.
So it worked out.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
I was fascinated that you studied anthropology and
that you worked in the museum.
I can't help but think, afterreading your book, that studying
anthropology is a wonderfulattribute for an author.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I think so.
The Promised Party.
It's about many things, but oneof the things that it is, it's
about the things that made me awriter, the things that made
this journey of becoming awriter and, of course, working
with Dr Robert Carnero, who hadthe Margaret Mead chair, who was
an eminence and taught me aboutthe rigor of research and all
(09:06):
these things and yet had such adeep appreciation for poetry and
myth and all of that.
That really was an importantpart of my life, of being who I
am today.
So when I go into the field and, for example, for Prayers for
the Stolen, and interviewingmothers whose daughters have
been stolen and going to theselittle communities, I'm taking
(09:26):
all that anthropology knowledgewith me to the literary
expression of all of that.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
One aspect that stands out in your memoir, the
Promise Party, is the structureof the writing.
At times, the reader feels asif they're in conversation with
you.
Your voice and your writing aredeeply intimate.
Was the structure organic ordid you experiment with this
style?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I love it that you asked me this question, because
only another writer asks such aquestion.
So I even wondered if I shouldhave had some sort of something
about this in the book.
But anyway, I really thoughtabout this carefully because one
of the things that I havenoticed is, in the last sort of
30 years maybe, a lot of memoirsread like novels, and I don't
(10:17):
think that lives are like novels.
It's very satisfying for thereader, it's very satisfying for
the publishing house becauseit's an easy arc, and it's
satisfying.
Everything gets tied, andNabokov and none of them felt
that their memoir had to soundlike a novel.
(10:49):
So then I came across two thingsthat were like the guiding
principle of the book.
One was TS Eliot's essay on themetaphysical poets, where he
says that life is a fragmentarywhole.
So the fragmentary whole.
And then Borges said thatmemory is a fragmentary whole.
So that are the fragmentarywhole.
And then Borges said thatmemory is a pile of shattered
(11:11):
mirrors.
So it was those two ideas thatI thought okay, this is the road
, I'm going to do it infragments, with the idea of the
whole and the idea of shatteredmirrors, and so those were the
ideas that guided me to writethe book in this way.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
And in the book you also go back and forth from your
childhood into different partsof your history and you do it
really well, because that issometimes a tricky thing to do,
to be jumping from the timelines, but it's so smooth the way you
did it, and I think it'sbecause every aspect of your
life that you've chosen to writeabout reflects beautifully from
(11:51):
your past into your future.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Thank you.
So you do mean that when I gointo the future, if something
takes me to the future and thenI come back to the past?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yes, it's absolutely beautiful the way you weave the
story back and forth.
Memoirs can be tricky things toread not only to write but to
read.
But the Promise Party isbrilliant.
On page 134, in the sectiontitled Trotsky's Rabbits I do
love that chapter heading youwrite about your friend Fanny
Del Rio and how she was thefirst friend who shared your
(12:23):
interest in politics, literatureand philosophy.
You wrote quote at the Agora weordered coffee and read Karl
Marx as we tried to understandthe revolutions that were going
on in Latin America.
End quote.
How did the unrest in LatinAmerica affect the people of
Mexico at that time?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
You know, we were very deeply affected and one of
the things that I think about Ijust said the book is about my
becoming a writer, but it's alsothe tale of two cities.
So the first half of the bookis Mexico City and the second
half of the book is New YorkCity and so Mexico.
I feel that that ends with theNorth American Free Trade
Agreement.
So Mexico was very sort of cutoff from the United States and
(13:07):
much more involved in Centraland South America in terms of
influence and very much by as Italk about also in the book, by
French literature and Frenchideas.
So yeah, so Mexico had alwaysbeen, and I hope it continues to
be, but it's changed a lot.
But at that time it was acountry that received everybody.
(13:27):
It was very generous in thatway.
So there were many sort ofrefugees coming from.
You know, the 1973 overthrow ofAllende in Chile, or you know,
things like the Sandinistas wasa big subject at the time, the
Cuban Revolution, obviously, thedirty war in Argentina, which
(13:50):
was horrific, that went on formore than 10 years, and then
Mexico also received refugeesthat were fleeing from Franco.
So there's a huge Spanishcommunity that comes afterward,
starting like in 1939, more orless, and for about 10 years.
So you know, it had this kindof feeling of people from
(14:11):
everywhere fleeing from terriblethings and sadly, terrible
things are continuing to go on.
I mean right now Venezuela,nicaragua, honduras, they're all
in terrible situations.
The violence in Chile.
So you know, latin America hasa dark past in many ways, but at
(14:32):
that time it was full of sortof refugees coming from these
different places.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
My view on borders and immigration is probably a
lot different to many people whoare listening to the show, and
it stems from being an immigrantand from living in other
countries and traveling.
I actually feel that we need tohave more open borders.
Yes, there need to be rules andregulations, sure, but we're
facing a climate crisis and itjust seems ludicrous to me that
(15:03):
we are not opening our bordersmore and helping others who need
help.
Why wait for the crisis when weshould be doing something now?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
I completely agree.
I mean there's Mexico and theUnited States.
Now I mean I know that there'smore Mexicans in the United
States legally than Canadians inCanada, you know.
So all the Mexican familieshave some family member in the
United States.
It's been really interestingfor me.
I've given some classes, like atIrvine University in California
(15:34):
, about the greatness of Mexico,and I feel like a lot of people
don't understand.
You know, just something thissimple when the United States
was having its firstThanksgiving dinner in, we'd
already had a music conservatory, a printing press and a
(15:58):
university for a hundred years.
Mexico is so ancient and socomplex.
And the other thing is, whenVirginia Woolf says, where are
Shakespeare's sisters, where isJudith Shakespeare?
In a room of one's own?
Well, she was in Mexico, one ofthe greatest writers who ever
lived, the nun Sor Juana Inés dela Cruz, who Octavio Paz wrote
a whole book on her.
I mean she's as great as allthese great men, definitely a
(16:19):
Judith Shakespeare.
And she was in Mexico.
Not to mention, we can talkabout the food, the pre-Hispanic
cultures, their incredible art,the art, mexico under Spanish
rule 400 years, and what thatalso meant in terms of the
beauty and the Baroque.
And I mean it's so complex andI feel that a lot of people
(16:40):
don't know this about Mexico, soI do actually love to teach it.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
That sounds like a class I need to do.
It sounds fascinating.
There's a part in the bookwhere you write about Frida
Kahlo's braid.
Can you share that story withour listeners?
I loved it.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah, well, the thing about the memoir is that I also
since I thought about this alot like how do we was, am I
going to write this?
I realized also we are also whowe are by stories of others
stories we've overheard, songs,we've heard movies, we've seen.
All those things make us who weare.
And, for example, for me,there's one chapter that's only
(17:21):
the quote of Diego Rivera afterFrida dies, and he married her
twice and we have photos of boththose marriages, which are two
of the photos that I really loveand she dies and then he
actually says only now that shehas died do I understand that
she was the most importantperson being in my whole entire
(17:43):
life.
And to think that Diego Riveracould only understand that after
she died.
What do we not understand yet?
What are we blind to?
So that was always somethingthat was in the air for me, like
what am I not seeing?
And so I put that quote in.
So, yes, it's not my quote, butit's something that affected me
(18:04):
deeply.
You know this idea of whatdon't we know, what do we know
too late.
And then the braid.
So the braid is not my story,but Ana Arruesti, who was the
grandmother of my great bestfriend, aline Davidoff, told me
the story of how you know, whenshe got to Mexico from Europe
(18:26):
this was before this, this isthe Sephardic side of that
family.
They got there in the early1900s.
They all had huge, long braidsand she cut it off and she put
it in a drawer and then she gaveit to Frida to wear as a
hairpiece, because Frida wascomplaining that she didn't have
(18:46):
enough hair to make a goodbraid and so that was actually
Anna's braid.
Now in my novel, Prayers for theStolen, I actually have a
character who used to go andthis is true because she's based
on somebody I know who would gofrom door to door in the 60s
knocking to buy people's braids,because there was no synthetic
(19:08):
hair, so people would keep theirbraids and sell their braids,
just so beautiful.
But yeah, so that story ofFrida's braid it's not my story
but it's part of what makes mewho I am to know that story and
share it.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Frida Kahlo died in 1954.
But your family, when theymoved to Mexico, lived in the
house next door to hers, correct?
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, she had already died, and so had Diego a few
years beforehand.
But it was Diego Rivera'sdaughter who lived there with
her two children, who were mybest friends growing up.
So I was in that house all thetime and it hadn't changed at
all.
Everything was still there.
Nobody had cleaned out a closetand to this day all that stuff
is still there Maybe not herbobby pins anymore, but I know,
(19:56):
does the house have spiritsliving there?
Yeah, you feel the presence,totally yeah, and you still, to
this day, you feel the presence.
Even though it's now a museum,you definitely still feel the
presence of those two peoplethere.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Another place I need to visit Now.
You and your sister, barbaraSibley, founded and directed the
San Miguel Poetry Week.
Is this event still running?
Speaker 2 (20:19):
No, it stopped after the pandemic.
Yeah, we had it for 22 yearsand then the pandemic came and,
like many things, we decidedthat that was the closing, the
closure for it, but it wasmarvelous for 22 years.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yes, susan was telling me about it.
She said it was fabulous.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
It really was.
Yeah, we started every yearwith poetry and it was so
inspiring and that everythinghas its time, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
That's for sure.
Now, you served as president ofPEN Mexico from 2009 to 2012,
and you were elected as thefirst woman president of PEN
International in 2015.
What is the PEN InternationalWomen's Manifesto and the
Democracy of the ImaginationManifesto.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
So to date I'm the only woman who has been
president.
So Penn International wasfounded in 1921 after the First
World War with the idea a kindof a mea culpa, because it was
sort of the idea was how hadwriters contributed to
xenophobias and hatreds?
And what if there were thisnetwork of writers all over the
(21:27):
world, you know, working towardspeace and freedom of expression
and tolerance?
And so it was founded in Londonand people like Virginia Woolf
were founding members of theorganization and the idea was
that it wasn't a politicalorganization.
But very soon thereafter camethe Second World War and the
(21:49):
burning of books and sort ofNazi sympathizers taking over
the German Penn Center.
And that is when JohnGalsworthy, who was president of
Penn at the time, said and thisis actually quite important
because he said actually humanrights are supra-political,
they're above the political.
And then HG Wells writes, whowas also president of Penn,
(22:10):
wrote his incredible book theRights of man, and out of that
comes the universal declarationof human rights and the idea
that human rights aresupra-political, which is so
important and it's actually aPenn idea, but anyway.
So Penn basically defendsfreedom of expression all over
the world.
(22:31):
We have chapters in 150countries and sadly, the
organization has grown and grownand grown because freedom of
expression is at risk in so manyplaces in the world, in places
that you would never haveimagined.
Would we ever have imaginedbanned books in the United
States?
It's sort of inconceivable.
(22:51):
So we ban books but we don'tban bullets.
How about that?
We need to print that up.
So you know, and America hashad to really work with this
banned book problem.
But at Penn International, youknow, we have many countries
that are now banning books,silencing writers.
(23:12):
So to answer your question aboutthe manifestos, as the only
woman president I really felt Ihad to do a lot to try and help
women writers that that hadnever really been addressed
within the organization.
We did a lot of studies on manythings, including, for example,
in the English language, whichis the powerful language for
(23:34):
publishing, when women winprizes, which is now getting
quite close to parody.
In 98% of the cases the novelwas about a man.
So still, the preference forthe male story, the importance
of a man's story, is stillsuperior to, consciously or
(23:54):
unconsciously, the story of awoman or the story of a girl.
So you know, we're working withall of this.
So I created the woman'smanifesto for the organization
and it has transcended penbecause UNESCO and the United
Nations have used it as the coreof their woman's gender work
(24:18):
and it's gone to many, manyorganizations and one woman at
who was the head had been thehead of amnesty international
feels it's one of the mostimportant feminist documents in
the last 30 years.
So I thought a lot about how todo it and what I wanted to say,
and a lot of these feministthings are quite angry and I
(24:42):
wanted to address the sorrow ofthe loss of women's knowledge
and creativity.
So the Penn InternationalWomen's Manifesto is a work of
sorrow, so it's different inthat sense.
It's about loss.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
There's so much to unpack in everything you just
said.
Of course, one of the standoutthings for me is when you said
we ban books, but we don't banguns.
It's a lot to think about.
It's a very powerful sentence.
I'd love to share a thoughtwith you and get your comments
on it, and I thought about thiswhen you said that the Women's
(25:18):
Manifesto addresses the sorrowof the loss of women's knowledge
and creativity.
When I chat with my sons orother young men about feminism,
there's one aspect of feminismthat pops up and I would really
appreciate your thoughts on this.
This is a quote from one youngman.
Feminism has been really toughon my generation of men.
(25:42):
There are men in my generationwho don't want to go out anymore
, who are scared to say anything.
For some, the drive to become asuccessful husband or father is
no longer there.
They're almost embarrassed byany success they may achieve.
End quote.
I've wondered about this too.
(26:02):
I think it's the way we speakabout feminism, but I would
really love your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
You know I don't have an answer, but what your sons
are saying I've heard before.
I also have a 35-year-old son,so we've talked about this and
in fact it's odd that you bringthis up, because I was speaking
to a friend earlier this morningand she was saying we're
talking about what's happeningin the United States and the
handmaid's tale and all thesethings, and she was saying how
(26:32):
these three boys were saying youknow it's very confusing and
hard, and also women areexcelling so much.
You know there are more womenin medical school, more women as
lawyers.
You know women are doing, youknow doing a lot and doing it
very successfully.
So you know, I don't I'm notsure I have the answer, but in
(26:54):
my own sort of decision Idecided that I wanted to address
the sorrow of the loss andthese.
I think.
You know, I think it's complex,because we do want women to be
able to have an equal life, youknow, and one of the things that
we talk about a lot in pen,which is very important actually
(27:17):
in pen, is how societies havebeen changed because of
literature.
So, for example, like OliverTwist, thanks to that novel, you
know, the child labor laws werechanged.
We don't even think of thejournalism.
You that novel.
So novels can give empathy.
So when I think of Jane Austenor Charlotte Bronte, I mean it's
(27:40):
thanks to those books that wecan own property, that we can
inherit property, that we canearn a living.
So in many ways the greatestpopulation that's been enslaved
has been women.
We did everything for free andwe had nothing back.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Yeah, like you, I don't have an answer for this,
but I think it's worth talkingabout, and I like listening to
what young people have to sayfrom every side of the equation.
I do too.
That's how we grow, right?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
And I don't know what the answer is, but definitely I
think it's a confusing time forboth men and women.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Yes, I agree, you were talking about journalism a
few minutes ago and, as thepresident of PEN Mexico, you
were instrumental in changinglaws to protect journalists.
Were there any laws in placeprotecting journalists in Mexico
before this?
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Yeah.
So the difference is the lawsthat were in place were state
laws.
So very often if a journalistwas killed in a corrupt state by
covering, let's say, the mayoror the governor or important
businessman who might have beena drug trafficker, very often it
might have been those and insome cases we know for sure it
(28:57):
were those people who hadactually killed the journalist.
So it needed to become afederal crime.
It had to be raised to afederal crime and many
organizations journalistorganizations and Amnesty
International had tried to getthe law changed.
But the thing that happens withPenn that is so exceptional is
that you can call on a globalbody of intellectuals, so you
(29:21):
can call on all the presidentsof every center, all the writers
who have received, let's say,the Nobel Peace Prize and the
Nobel Literary Prize, and youknow the whole Swedish Academy
and you know all the sort ofgreat writers can come together
and create a lot of pressure.
So that's what I did.
I did a campaign of shame toshame the Mexican government
(29:43):
through all these great voicesand the great worldwide
intelligence of people inacademia and in all kinds of
prized writers, et cetera, topoint the finger and say this
needs to be changed because wehad so many journalists being
killed.
I have to say the law hasn'tmade it better for journalists,
(30:03):
but at least symbolically, it'sa good thing.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Yes, and that's a scary thought and I hate to say
it, but I think it's going toget worse during this second
Trump administration, trumppresidency.
Oh yes, that's why it'simportant we keep funding NPR
National Public.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Radio.
Exactly, that might be onedefinite thing to go.
Yeah, and I want to speak alittle because you also asked
about the Democracy of theImagination Manifesto and this
is also very important to mebecause it's Penn and we're the
largest and oldest associationof writers in the world.
It was important to take astand on the imagination in
(30:41):
these times because the cancelculture has been so vicious and
young writers is.
I'm really worried for youngwriters, like, will they be able
to write, write outside oftheir group and outside of their
experience without beingattacked and canceled?
And I just wanted to create adocument and I actually did it
(31:02):
with the chairman of the NobelPrize for Literature that wants
to write not from their groupand not from their experience.
You know, at least Penn has adocument where that gives them
the freedom to do that.
I mean, I always give theexample of.
You know, men have writtenabout women giving birth in
(31:26):
beautiful ways.
You know, you have to be ableto have the freedom to imagine.
We had to imagine going to themoon to get to the moon.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
And we have to imagine peace for there to be a
chance of peace.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Exactly and so yeah, so I just felt it was very
important to have a documentthat, and it does speak.
Finally, we started out talkingabout dreams, but the opening
is okay, I don't have it infront of me, but Penn
acknowledges that literature hasno frontiers.
That is also the frontiers ofthe imagination, and we need our
(32:05):
imagination to be as free asdreams the freedom of our dreams
.
When we go to sleep, our mindhas to have that freedom,
Otherwise we are practicingself-censorship, and that's the
worst form of censorship, andwe're entering a very dangerous
phase of self-censorship andfear.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
And talking about the subject of self-censorship and
fear, during the Obama campaign,shepard Fairey did those
fabulous portraits and they wereeverywhere, on every telephone
pole around the country.
I love seeing them, and he alsodid portraits of Kamala Harris
for the last election, buthonestly, I have not seen a lot
(32:48):
of political art in this countrylately.
You're right, I hadn't eventhought of it.
Yes, and I'm concerned.
I worry that it is beingself-censored and that it is
because of fear.
We don't know what the Trumppresidency is going to bring us
as far as censoring what we canand what we can't do, which is
(33:09):
terrifying Self-censorshipbecause they're afraid.
Yeah, yeah, in some ways itfeels like the psychological
evolution of man has just gonebackwards.
It's so frustrating.
And not to even get started onwomen's rights.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
There's no discourse.
There's no.
Let's agree to disagree, butwith respect.
So I mean nobody wants to saywhat they think or what their
views are because they're afraidthey'll be attacked or silenced
or heckled or dismissed.
I mean, in academia right nowit's very dangerous.
(33:48):
What's going on?
Everybody's terrified of sayingwhat they think.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
One of the reasons I started this podcast was way
back in 2020, during lockdownour first lockdown and I wanted
to support independent bookshopsand authors.
Throughout the last couple ofyears, I've realized the
importance of small and mediumpresses.
The owners and publishers ofthese small and medium presses
(34:13):
have a lot of courage.
They take on books and authorsthat the big traditional houses
probably wouldn't take on, and Ijust admire them so much for
that.
Because we need to be able tohear and read these voices.
Yeah, well, thank goodness wehave literature.
Yes, never take it for granted.
Yeah, I truly believe that byreading well-written fiction, it
(34:37):
helps us to become moreempathetic towards one another.
I agree.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Well, so much so that you know it can transform
societies, that empathy that youcan read about Oliver Twist and
you say this can't be.
Or you read Pride and Prejudiceor Jane Eyre and you think, my
God, if she doesn't have somenice cousin or brother, she's in
the workhouse, if, but she'sprobably on the street.
(35:04):
I have a poem about this onewoman who, in 1776 or something,
lived in a haystack.
She had nobody, nobody andcouldn't work.
You know what do you do if youcan't inherit and you can't work
?
So yeah, so I mean, literatureis very important for creating
empathy and putting yourself inthe life of another person.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Jennifer, I was flipping through your book again
this morning and I wasinterested how did your dad get
to know JFK?
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Just in the civil rights movement.
He was just passionate aboutchanging you know that horrific
situation of, you know, blacksbeing banned from being in
certain places and etc.
And so, yeah, so it wasn't likehe was getting a salary, so,
yeah, so it wasn't like he wasgetting a salary.
He was one of the volunteers,very passionate, present, close
(35:57):
volunteer, so much so that theywere invited to the inauguration
and then, when they came toMexico, it was my parents who
greeted them and received them.
I wouldn't say they were likebest friends or anything, but
there was a recognition in himof my father's work.
Yeah, and they were both.
(36:18):
Both my parents were very youknow my mother, who worked in
that subversive group for womento help them learn about birth
control, because Mexico, being aCatholic country, there was no
birth control, there was nobirth control, and so it had to
be a subversive secret movementcalled, you know, women's health
, but it was where they taughtwomen how not to have babies and
(36:38):
what they could do, etc.
Etc.
Which was illegal.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Sounds like your compassion for others came
directly from your mom and dad.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Yeah, or more than compassion.
I think we were all my siblings, we were all raised that you
had to give back.
I mean you had to do something.
You know that you could.
You had a duty to give back tothe world in some way.
I mean you were raised withthat idea.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
The way you're talking about your parents
reminds me of mine, because theywere always giving back to
their community and you know,not just giving money, which
they did whenever they couldafford it, but actually getting
in there, getting your handsdirty, cooking for people,
delivering the food, deliveringclothes to the needy.
I remember at one stage one ofdad's patients had to go into
(37:26):
hospital and she was a singlemom, so he brought the daughter
home and she lived with us forquite a while.
That was the kind of thing ourparents did.
I think that reflects on me andI've been able to carry it
through to my children, which isa true gift.
I think actually getting in anddoing the work is super
important and do something.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
And for me it was a big deal when I read Camus' the
Rebel.
I must have read that when Iwas about 18 or 19 and
understood that the artist isalso a rebel.
And so I mean I've writtenabout the stealing of girls,
I've written about thetrafficking of guns, I've
written about you know all kindsof things, and then of course,
(38:09):
the pen work.
But I realized that within myliterature I can work as a rebel
, as somebody who's trying tochange the world, and that's
just another way to act.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Yeah, as we were talking earlier, it reminds me
of Shepard Fairey.
He puts in the sweat and thelabor to bring us fantastic art
that says something.
Let's talk about books.
What are you currently reading?
So I'm reading.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Actually, I haven't read the whole book ever before.
I've read some of the stories.
I'm reading a manual forcleaning women, lucia Berlin,
which is just amazing, amazing.
I don't know if you've everread it, but if you haven't,
it's fantastic.
Yeah, so she died.
Let me see what it says.
She died in 2004 and, um, shelived in mexico city, so I
(39:00):
didn't actually know this abouther.
So I'm rereading all of thisbecause the stories on mexico
city I haven't, um, read those.
So this is what it looks like.
Introduction by lydia davis.
But, yeah, I really recommendit.
A Manual for Cleaning Women.
Lucia Berlin Sounds like agreat book.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Jennifer, thank you for all you do to make the world
a better place for your writingand I highly recommend your
latest book, the Promise Party.
It is fantastic.
Thanks for being on the show.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Thank you, and thank you so much for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I'm really really so grateful.
Thank you, and family, and onsocial media, and remember to
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
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(40:11):
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(40:33):
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Thank you.
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a
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Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
We believe in exceptionalwriting, stories that educate,
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(00:30):
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Okay, let's get on with theshow.
You're listening to Episode 277.
Jennifer Clement is PresidentEmerita of the Human Rights and
Freedom of ExpressionOrganization PEN International
(02:19):
and the only woman to hold theoffice of President since the
organization was founded in 1921.
Under her leadership, thegroundbreaking PEN International
Women's Manifesto and theDemocracy of the Imagination
Manifesto were created.
As president of PEN Mexico from2009 to 2012, clement was
(02:41):
instrumental in changing the lawto make the crime of killing a
journalist a federal crime.
Clement is the author of thenovels A True Story Based on
Lies, the Poison that Fascinates, prayers for the Stolen Gun,
love and Stormy People, as wellas several poetry books,
including Poems and Errors,published by Knuts Olsson in
(03:03):
Sweden, including Poems andErrors published by Knuts Olsson
in Sweden.
Clement also wrote theacclaimed memoir Widow Basquiat
about New York City in the early80s and the painter Jean-Michel
Basquiat, which NPR named BestBook of 2015 in seven different
categories.
Clement's books have beentranslated into 38 languages and
have covered topics such as thestealing of little girls in
(03:25):
Mexico, the effects of gunviolence and trafficking of guns
into Mexico and Central America, as well as writing about her
life in the art worlds of Mexicoand New York.
Clement is the recipient of theGuggenheim, nea, mcdowell and
Santa Madalena fellowships, andher books have twice been a New
(03:45):
York Times Editor's Choice book.
Prayers for the Stolen was therecipient of the Grand Prix de
Lettrice Le Ciel de L and a NewStatesman Book of the Year,
picked by the Nobel laureateKazuo Ishiguro.
Gun Love was an Oprah Clubselection, as well as being a
National Book Award and AspenAwards Literary Prize finalist.
(04:07):
Time magazine, among otherpublications, named it one of
the top 10 books of 2018.
At NYU, she was thecommencement speaker for the
Gallatin graduates of 2017, andshe gave the Lectio Magistralis
in Florence, italy, for thePremier Gregor von Ressori.
Clement is a member of Mexico'sprestigious Sistema Nacional de
(04:30):
Criadores de Arte.
For Clement's work in humanrights, she was awarded the HIP
Award for contribution to Latinocommunities by the Hispanics in
Philanthropy organization, aswell as being the recipient of
the Sarah Curry HumanitarianAward.
Most recently, she was giventhe 2023 Freedom of Expression
(04:50):
Honorary title on the occasionof World Press Day by Brussels
University Alliance, vub and ULB, in partnerships with the
European Commission, europeanEndowment for Democracy and
UNESCO, among others.
Jennifer Clement was raised inMexico, where she lives, and has
a double major in anthropologyand English literature from NYU
(05:13):
and an MFA from the Universityof Southern Maine.
She was named a DistinguishedAlumni by the Kingswood
Cranbrook School.
Jennifer's recent book istitled the Promise Party Carlo
Basquiat and Me.
Hi, jennifer, and welcome tothe show.
It's such an honor to have youhere.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Oh, Mandy, I'm so thrilled to be invited to your
podcast.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
It's my pleasure and I need to thank our mutual
friend who introduced us, theauthor and poet, susan
Scolati-Florence.
Thank you, susan.
Yes, I adore your latest book,a Promise Party.
It is absolutely beautiful andwe'll get into that a little
later, but I would love to startby learning about you and your
(05:57):
transition from dancing topoetry and novel writing.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Well, I had always written poetry as a child and
poetry was something valued inmy home.
Especially my father was veryinto literature and poetry.
So I began writing poetry and Inever sort of thought of it as
something that I would do.
I always thought of it assomething that was just an
essential part of myself.
(06:21):
But I had always danced.
I started ballet sort of likeoften happens with little girls,
you know, maybe four or five orsomething like that.
So I always loved the dancing.
And then I actually went to NewYork as a dancer and then, being
there, I had a dream.
I really wondered should Iwrite that in my memoir?
(06:42):
Is it too strange?
But I thought, well, it's thetruth, that's actually what
happened.
And since then I've always beenextremely interested by this
acting on dreams and in fact inthe Bible there are 21 dreams
and dreams that are acted upon.
And so the dream sort of saidto me that that was child's play
, that was wanting to staychildlike and, in a way, not
(07:06):
grow up, you know.
So I acted on the dream andthen decided, yeah, that really
my destiny was to write, and Iwas the most surprised of all
that I could write plot andcharacter, because I just wrote
poetry and then I thought, well,I'll try and write a novel, and
then I was able to.
So I was also surprised that Icould do that.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
I enjoy hearing about other people's dreams.
I've been journaling my dreamsfor over 30 years now probably
35 years and I met with aJungian analyst I think for over
10 years.
She was fantastic and what Ifound was Jung completely
understood the creative mind.
Dreams give us clues into ourdaily life.
(07:49):
Have you acted on one?
Oh, yes, I think.
Once you understand how dreamswork and the symbolism in your
dreams, you can't help but notact on them.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Exactly yeah, yeah.
So I decided to put it in thebook.
I just thought well, it'sactually the truth.
I had a dream, and the dreamtold me that this was child's
play, that I needed to grow up,that I wasn't the swan or the
nutcracker or the princess.
I had to grow up.
So I understood that dream.
(08:20):
Yeah, and then I transferredout of the dance department and
went to another part of NYU anddid two degrees.
I did anthropology and Englishliterature.
So it worked out.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
I was fascinated that you studied anthropology and
that you worked in the museum.
I can't help but think, afterreading your book, that studying
anthropology is a wonderfulattribute for an author.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I think so.
The Promised Party.
It's about many things, but oneof the things that it is, it's
about the things that made me awriter, the things that made
this journey of becoming awriter and, of course, working
with Dr Robert Carnero, who hadthe Margaret Mead chair, who was
an eminence and taught me aboutthe rigor of research and all
(09:06):
these things and yet had such adeep appreciation for poetry and
myth and all of that.
That really was an importantpart of my life, of being who I
am today.
So when I go into the field and, for example, for Prayers for
the Stolen, and interviewingmothers whose daughters have
been stolen and going to theselittle communities, I'm taking
(09:26):
all that anthropology knowledgewith me to the literary
expression of all of that.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
One aspect that stands out in your memoir, the
Promise Party, is the structureof the writing.
At times, the reader feels asif they're in conversation with
you.
Your voice and your writing aredeeply intimate.
Was the structure organic ordid you experiment with this
style?
Speaker 2 (09:52):
I love it that you asked me this question, because
only another writer asks such aquestion.
So I even wondered if I shouldhave had some sort of something
about this in the book.
But anyway, I really thoughtabout this carefully because one
of the things that I havenoticed is, in the last sort of
30 years maybe, a lot of memoirsread like novels, and I don't
(10:17):
think that lives are like novels.
It's very satisfying for thereader, it's very satisfying for
the publishing house becauseit's an easy arc, and it's
satisfying.
Everything gets tied, andNabokov and none of them felt
that their memoir had to soundlike a novel.
(10:49):
So then I came across two thingsthat were like the guiding
principle of the book.
One was TS Eliot's essay on themetaphysical poets, where he
says that life is a fragmentarywhole.
So the fragmentary whole.
And then Borges said thatmemory is a fragmentary whole.
So that are the fragmentarywhole.
And then Borges said thatmemory is a pile of shattered
(11:11):
mirrors.
So it was those two ideas thatI thought okay, this is the road
, I'm going to do it infragments, with the idea of the
whole and the idea of shatteredmirrors, and so those were the
ideas that guided me to writethe book in this way.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
And in the book you also go back and forth from your
childhood into different partsof your history and you do it
really well, because that issometimes a tricky thing to do,
to be jumping from the timelines, but it's so smooth the way you
did it, and I think it'sbecause every aspect of your
life that you've chosen to writeabout reflects beautifully from
(11:51):
your past into your future.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Thank you.
So you do mean that when I gointo the future, if something
takes me to the future and thenI come back to the past?
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Yes, it's absolutely beautiful the way you weave the
story back and forth.
Memoirs can be tricky things toread not only to write but to
read.
But the Promise Party isbrilliant.
On page 134, in the sectiontitled Trotsky's Rabbits I do
love that chapter heading youwrite about your friend Fanny
Del Rio and how she was thefirst friend who shared your
(12:23):
interest in politics, literatureand philosophy.
You wrote quote at the Agora weordered coffee and read Karl
Marx as we tried to understandthe revolutions that were going
on in Latin America.
End quote.
How did the unrest in LatinAmerica affect the people of
Mexico at that time?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
You know, we were very deeply affected and one of
the things that I think about Ijust said the book is about my
becoming a writer, but it's alsothe tale of two cities.
So the first half of the bookis Mexico City and the second
half of the book is New YorkCity and so Mexico.
I feel that that ends with theNorth American Free Trade
Agreement.
So Mexico was very sort of cutoff from the United States and
(13:07):
much more involved in Centraland South America in terms of
influence and very much by as Italk about also in the book, by
French literature and Frenchideas.
So yeah, so Mexico had alwaysbeen, and I hope it continues to
be, but it's changed a lot.
But at that time it was acountry that received everybody.
(13:27):
It was very generous in thatway.
So there were many sort ofrefugees coming from.
You know, the 1973 overthrow ofAllende in Chile, or you know,
things like the Sandinistas wasa big subject at the time, the
Cuban Revolution, obviously, thedirty war in Argentina, which
(13:50):
was horrific, that went on formore than 10 years, and then
Mexico also received refugeesthat were fleeing from Franco.
So there's a huge Spanishcommunity that comes afterward,
starting like in 1939, more orless, and for about 10 years.
So you know, it had this kindof feeling of people from
(14:11):
everywhere fleeing from terriblethings and sadly, terrible
things are continuing to go on.
I mean right now Venezuela,nicaragua, honduras, they're all
in terrible situations.
The violence in Chile.
So you know, latin America hasa dark past in many ways, but at
(14:32):
that time it was full of sortof refugees coming from these
different places.
Speaker 1 (14:38):
My view on borders and immigration is probably a
lot different to many people whoare listening to the show, and
it stems from being an immigrantand from living in other
countries and traveling.
I actually feel that we need tohave more open borders.
Yes, there need to be rules andregulations, sure, but we're
facing a climate crisis and itjust seems ludicrous to me that
(15:03):
we are not opening our bordersmore and helping others who need
help.
Why wait for the crisis when weshould be doing something now?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
I completely agree.
I mean there's Mexico and theUnited States.
Now I mean I know that there'smore Mexicans in the United
States legally than Canadians inCanada, you know.
So all the Mexican familieshave some family member in the
United States.
It's been really interestingfor me.
I've given some classes, like atIrvine University in California
(15:34):
, about the greatness of Mexico,and I feel like a lot of people
don't understand.
You know, just something thissimple when the United States
was having its firstThanksgiving dinner in, we'd
already had a music conservatory, a printing press and a
(15:58):
university for a hundred years.
Mexico is so ancient and socomplex.
And the other thing is, whenVirginia Woolf says, where are
Shakespeare's sisters, where isJudith Shakespeare?
In a room of one's own?
Well, she was in Mexico, one ofthe greatest writers who ever
lived, the nun Sor Juana Inés dela Cruz, who Octavio Paz wrote
a whole book on her.
I mean she's as great as allthese great men, definitely a
(16:19):
Judith Shakespeare.
And she was in Mexico.
Not to mention, we can talkabout the food, the pre-Hispanic
cultures, their incredible art,the art, mexico under Spanish
rule 400 years, and what thatalso meant in terms of the
beauty and the Baroque.
And I mean it's so complex andI feel that a lot of people
(16:40):
don't know this about Mexico, soI do actually love to teach it.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
That sounds like a class I need to do.
It sounds fascinating.
There's a part in the bookwhere you write about Frida
Kahlo's braid.
Can you share that story withour listeners?
I loved it.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah, well, the thing about the memoir is that I also
since I thought about this alot like how do we was, am I
going to write this?
I realized also we are also whowe are by stories of others
stories we've overheard, songs,we've heard movies, we've seen.
All those things make us who weare.
And, for example, for me,there's one chapter that's only
(17:21):
the quote of Diego Rivera afterFrida dies, and he married her
twice and we have photos of boththose marriages, which are two
of the photos that I really loveand she dies and then he
actually says only now that shehas died do I understand that
she was the most importantperson being in my whole entire
(17:43):
life.
And to think that Diego Riveracould only understand that after
she died.
What do we not understand yet?
What are we blind to?
So that was always somethingthat was in the air for me, like
what am I not seeing?
And so I put that quote in.
So, yes, it's not my quote, butit's something that affected me
(18:04):
deeply.
You know this idea of whatdon't we know, what do we know
too late.
And then the braid.
So the braid is not my story,but Ana Arruesti, who was the
grandmother of my great bestfriend, aline Davidoff, told me
the story of how you know, whenshe got to Mexico from Europe
(18:26):
this was before this, this isthe Sephardic side of that
family.
They got there in the early1900s.
They all had huge, long braidsand she cut it off and she put
it in a drawer and then she gaveit to Frida to wear as a
hairpiece, because Frida wascomplaining that she didn't have
(18:46):
enough hair to make a goodbraid and so that was actually
Anna's braid.
Now in my novel, Prayers for theStolen, I actually have a
character who used to go andthis is true because she's based
on somebody I know who would gofrom door to door in the 60s
knocking to buy people's braids,because there was no synthetic
(19:08):
hair, so people would keep theirbraids and sell their braids,
just so beautiful.
But yeah, so that story ofFrida's braid it's not my story
but it's part of what makes mewho I am to know that story and
share it.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
Frida Kahlo died in 1954.
But your family, when theymoved to Mexico, lived in the
house next door to hers, correct?
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, she had already died, and so had Diego a few
years beforehand.
But it was Diego Rivera'sdaughter who lived there with
her two children, who were mybest friends growing up.
So I was in that house all thetime and it hadn't changed at
all.
Everything was still there.
Nobody had cleaned out a closetand to this day all that stuff
is still there Maybe not herbobby pins anymore, but I know,
(19:56):
does the house have spiritsliving there?
Yeah, you feel the presence,totally yeah, and you still, to
this day, you feel the presence.
Even though it's now a museum,you definitely still feel the
presence of those two peoplethere.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
Another place I need to visit Now.
You and your sister, barbaraSibley, founded and directed the
San Miguel Poetry Week.
Is this event still running?
Speaker 2 (20:19):
No, it stopped after the pandemic.
Yeah, we had it for 22 yearsand then the pandemic came and,
like many things, we decidedthat that was the closing, the
closure for it, but it wasmarvelous for 22 years.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Yes, susan was telling me about it.
She said it was fabulous.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
It really was.
Yeah, we started every yearwith poetry and it was so
inspiring and that everythinghas its time, you know.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
That's for sure.
Now, you served as president ofPEN Mexico from 2009 to 2012,
and you were elected as thefirst woman president of PEN
International in 2015.
What is the PEN InternationalWomen's Manifesto and the
Democracy of the ImaginationManifesto.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
So to date I'm the only woman who has been
president.
So Penn International wasfounded in 1921 after the First
World War with the idea a kindof a mea culpa, because it was
sort of the idea was how hadwriters contributed to
xenophobias and hatreds?
And what if there were thisnetwork of writers all over the
(21:27):
world, you know, working towardspeace and freedom of expression
and tolerance?
And so it was founded in Londonand people like Virginia Woolf
were founding members of theorganization and the idea was
that it wasn't a politicalorganization.
But very soon thereafter camethe Second World War and the
(21:49):
burning of books and sort ofNazi sympathizers taking over
the German Penn Center.
And that is when JohnGalsworthy, who was president of
Penn at the time, said and thisis actually quite important
because he said actually humanrights are supra-political,
they're above the political.
And then HG Wells writes, whowas also president of Penn,
(22:10):
wrote his incredible book theRights of man, and out of that
comes the universal declarationof human rights and the idea
that human rights aresupra-political, which is so
important and it's actually aPenn idea, but anyway.
So Penn basically defendsfreedom of expression all over
the world.
(22:31):
We have chapters in 150countries and sadly, the
organization has grown and grownand grown because freedom of
expression is at risk in so manyplaces in the world, in places
that you would never haveimagined.
Would we ever have imaginedbanned books in the United
States?
It's sort of inconceivable.
(22:51):
So we ban books but we don'tban bullets.
How about that?
We need to print that up.
So you know, and America hashad to really work with this
banned book problem.
But at Penn International, youknow, we have many countries
that are now banning books,silencing writers.
(23:12):
So to answer your question aboutthe manifestos, as the only
woman president I really felt Ihad to do a lot to try and help
women writers that that hadnever really been addressed
within the organization.
We did a lot of studies on manythings, including, for example,
in the English language, whichis the powerful language for
(23:34):
publishing, when women winprizes, which is now getting
quite close to parody.
In 98% of the cases the novelwas about a man.
So still, the preference forthe male story, the importance
of a man's story, is stillsuperior to, consciously or
(23:54):
unconsciously, the story of awoman or the story of a girl.
So you know, we're working withall of this.
So I created the woman'smanifesto for the organization
and it has transcended penbecause UNESCO and the United
Nations have used it as the coreof their woman's gender work
(24:18):
and it's gone to many, manyorganizations and one woman at
who was the head had been thehead of amnesty international
feels it's one of the mostimportant feminist documents in
the last 30 years.
So I thought a lot about how todo it and what I wanted to say,
and a lot of these feministthings are quite angry and I
(24:42):
wanted to address the sorrow ofthe loss of women's knowledge
and creativity.
So the Penn InternationalWomen's Manifesto is a work of
sorrow, so it's different inthat sense.
It's about loss.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
There's so much to unpack in everything you just
said.
Of course, one of the standoutthings for me is when you said
we ban books, but we don't banguns.
It's a lot to think about.
It's a very powerful sentence.
I'd love to share a thoughtwith you and get your comments
on it, and I thought about thiswhen you said that the Women's
(25:18):
Manifesto addresses the sorrowof the loss of women's knowledge
and creativity.
When I chat with my sons orother young men about feminism,
there's one aspect of feminismthat pops up and I would really
appreciate your thoughts on this.
This is a quote from one youngman.
Feminism has been really toughon my generation of men.
(25:42):
There are men in my generationwho don't want to go out anymore
, who are scared to say anything.
For some, the drive to become asuccessful husband or father is
no longer there.
They're almost embarrassed byany success they may achieve.
End quote.
I've wondered about this too.
(26:02):
I think it's the way we speakabout feminism, but I would
really love your thoughts.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
You know I don't have an answer, but what your sons
are saying I've heard before.
I also have a 35-year-old son,so we've talked about this and
in fact it's odd that you bringthis up, because I was speaking
to a friend earlier this morningand she was saying we're
talking about what's happeningin the United States and the
handmaid's tale and all thesethings, and she was saying how
(26:32):
these three boys were saying youknow it's very confusing and
hard, and also women areexcelling so much.
You know there are more womenin medical school, more women as
lawyers.
You know women are doing, youknow doing a lot and doing it
very successfully.
So you know, I don't I'm notsure I have the answer, but in
(26:54):
my own sort of decision Idecided that I wanted to address
the sorrow of the loss andthese.
I think.
You know, I think it's complex,because we do want women to be
able to have an equal life, youknow, and one of the things that
we talk about a lot in pen,which is very important actually
(27:17):
in pen, is how societies havebeen changed because of
literature.
So, for example, like OliverTwist, thanks to that novel, you
know, the child labor laws werechanged.
We don't even think of thejournalism.
You that novel.
So novels can give empathy.
So when I think of Jane Austenor Charlotte Bronte, I mean it's
(27:40):
thanks to those books that wecan own property, that we can
inherit property, that we canearn a living.
So in many ways the greatestpopulation that's been enslaved
has been women.
We did everything for free andwe had nothing back.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Yeah, like you, I don't have an answer for this,
but I think it's worth talkingabout, and I like listening to
what young people have to sayfrom every side of the equation.
I do too.
That's how we grow, right?
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
And I don't know what the answer is, but definitely I
think it's a confusing time forboth men and women.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Yes, I agree, you were talking about journalism a
few minutes ago and, as thepresident of PEN Mexico, you
were instrumental in changinglaws to protect journalists.
Were there any laws in placeprotecting journalists in Mexico
before this?
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Yeah.
So the difference is the lawsthat were in place were state
laws.
So very often if a journalistwas killed in a corrupt state by
covering, let's say, the mayoror the governor or important
businessman who might have beena drug trafficker, very often it
might have been those and insome cases we know for sure it
(28:57):
were those people who hadactually killed the journalist.
So it needed to become afederal crime.
It had to be raised to afederal crime and many
organizations journalistorganizations and Amnesty
International had tried to getthe law changed.
But the thing that happens withPenn that is so exceptional is
that you can call on a globalbody of intellectuals, so you
(29:21):
can call on all the presidentsof every center, all the writers
who have received, let's say,the Nobel Peace Prize and the
Nobel Literary Prize, and youknow the whole Swedish Academy
and you know all the sort ofgreat writers can come together
and create a lot of pressure.
So that's what I did.
I did a campaign of shame toshame the Mexican government
(29:43):
through all these great voicesand the great worldwide
intelligence of people inacademia and in all kinds of
prized writers, et cetera, topoint the finger and say this
needs to be changed because wehad so many journalists being
killed.
I have to say the law hasn'tmade it better for journalists,
(30:03):
but at least symbolically, it'sa good thing.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Yes, and that's a scary thought and I hate to say
it, but I think it's going toget worse during this second
Trump administration, trumppresidency.
Oh yes, that's why it'simportant we keep funding NPR
National Public.
Speaker 2 (30:20):
Radio.
Exactly, that might be onedefinite thing to go.
Yeah, and I want to speak alittle because you also asked
about the Democracy of theImagination Manifesto and this
is also very important to mebecause it's Penn and we're the
largest and oldest associationof writers in the world.
It was important to take astand on the imagination in
(30:41):
these times because the cancelculture has been so vicious and
young writers is.
I'm really worried for youngwriters, like, will they be able
to write, write outside oftheir group and outside of their
experience without beingattacked and canceled?
And I just wanted to create adocument and I actually did it
(31:02):
with the chairman of the NobelPrize for Literature that wants
to write not from their groupand not from their experience.
You know, at least Penn has adocument where that gives them
the freedom to do that.
I mean, I always give theexample of.
You know, men have writtenabout women giving birth in
(31:26):
beautiful ways.
You know, you have to be ableto have the freedom to imagine.
We had to imagine going to themoon to get to the moon.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
And we have to imagine peace for there to be a
chance of peace.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
Exactly and so yeah, so I just felt it was very
important to have a documentthat, and it does speak.
Finally, we started out talkingabout dreams, but the opening
is okay, I don't have it infront of me, but Penn
acknowledges that literature hasno frontiers.
That is also the frontiers ofthe imagination, and we need our
(32:05):
imagination to be as free asdreams the freedom of our dreams
.
When we go to sleep, our mindhas to have that freedom,
Otherwise we are practicingself-censorship, and that's the
worst form of censorship, andwe're entering a very dangerous
phase of self-censorship andfear.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
And talking about the subject of self-censorship and
fear, during the Obama campaign,shepard Fairey did those
fabulous portraits and they wereeverywhere, on every telephone
pole around the country.
I love seeing them, and he alsodid portraits of Kamala Harris
for the last election, buthonestly, I have not seen a lot
(32:48):
of political art in this countrylately.
You're right, I hadn't eventhought of it.
Yes, and I'm concerned.
I worry that it is beingself-censored and that it is
because of fear.
We don't know what the Trumppresidency is going to bring us
as far as censoring what we canand what we can't do, which is
(33:09):
terrifying Self-censorshipbecause they're afraid.
Yeah, yeah, in some ways itfeels like the psychological
evolution of man has just gonebackwards.
It's so frustrating.
And not to even get started onwomen's rights.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
There's no discourse.
There's no.
Let's agree to disagree, butwith respect.
So I mean nobody wants to saywhat they think or what their
views are because they're afraidthey'll be attacked or silenced
or heckled or dismissed.
I mean, in academia right nowit's very dangerous.
(33:48):
What's going on?
Everybody's terrified of sayingwhat they think.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
One of the reasons I started this podcast was way
back in 2020, during lockdownour first lockdown and I wanted
to support independent bookshopsand authors.
Throughout the last couple ofyears, I've realized the
importance of small and mediumpresses.
The owners and publishers ofthese small and medium presses
(34:13):
have a lot of courage.
They take on books and authorsthat the big traditional houses
probably wouldn't take on, and Ijust admire them so much for
that.
Because we need to be able tohear and read these voices.
Yeah, well, thank goodness wehave literature.
Yes, never take it for granted.
Yeah, I truly believe that byreading well-written fiction, it
(34:37):
helps us to become moreempathetic towards one another.
I agree.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Well, so much so that you know it can transform
societies, that empathy that youcan read about Oliver Twist and
you say this can't be.
Or you read Pride and Prejudiceor Jane Eyre and you think, my
God, if she doesn't have somenice cousin or brother, she's in
the workhouse, if, but she'sprobably on the street.
(35:04):
I have a poem about this onewoman who, in 1776 or something,
lived in a haystack.
She had nobody, nobody andcouldn't work.
You know what do you do if youcan't inherit and you can't work
?
So yeah, so I mean, literatureis very important for creating
empathy and putting yourself inthe life of another person.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Jennifer, I was flipping through your book again
this morning and I wasinterested how did your dad get
to know JFK?
Speaker 2 (35:34):
Just in the civil rights movement.
He was just passionate aboutchanging you know that horrific
situation of, you know, blacksbeing banned from being in
certain places and etc.
And so, yeah, so it wasn't likehe was getting a salary, so,
yeah, so it wasn't like he wasgetting a salary.
He was one of the volunteers,very passionate, present, close
(35:57):
volunteer, so much so that theywere invited to the inauguration
and then, when they came toMexico, it was my parents who
greeted them and received them.
I wouldn't say they were likebest friends or anything, but
there was a recognition in himof my father's work.
Yeah, and they were both.
(36:18):
Both my parents were very youknow my mother, who worked in
that subversive group for womento help them learn about birth
control, because Mexico, being aCatholic country, there was no
birth control, there was nobirth control, and so it had to
be a subversive secret movementcalled, you know, women's health
, but it was where they taughtwomen how not to have babies and
(36:38):
what they could do, etc.
Etc.
Which was illegal.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Sounds like your compassion for others came
directly from your mom and dad.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
Yeah, or more than compassion.
I think we were all my siblings, we were all raised that you
had to give back.
I mean you had to do something.
You know that you could.
You had a duty to give back tothe world in some way.
I mean you were raised withthat idea.
Speaker 1 (37:03):
The way you're talking about your parents
reminds me of mine, because theywere always giving back to
their community and you know,not just giving money, which
they did whenever they couldafford it, but actually getting
in there, getting your handsdirty, cooking for people,
delivering the food, deliveringclothes to the needy.
I remember at one stage one ofdad's patients had to go into
(37:26):
hospital and she was a singlemom, so he brought the daughter
home and she lived with us forquite a while.
That was the kind of thing ourparents did.
I think that reflects on me andI've been able to carry it
through to my children, which isa true gift.
I think actually getting in anddoing the work is super
important and do something.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
And for me it was a big deal when I read Camus' the
Rebel.
I must have read that when Iwas about 18 or 19 and
understood that the artist isalso a rebel.
And so I mean I've writtenabout the stealing of girls,
I've written about thetrafficking of guns, I've
written about you know all kindsof things, and then of course,
(38:09):
the pen work.
But I realized that within myliterature I can work as a rebel
, as somebody who's trying tochange the world, and that's
just another way to act.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Yeah, as we were talking earlier, it reminds me
of Shepard Fairey.
He puts in the sweat and thelabor to bring us fantastic art
that says something.
Let's talk about books.
What are you currently reading?
So I'm reading.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Actually, I haven't read the whole book ever before.
I've read some of the stories.
I'm reading a manual forcleaning women, lucia Berlin,
which is just amazing, amazing.
I don't know if you've everread it, but if you haven't,
it's fantastic.
Yeah, so she died.
Let me see what it says.
She died in 2004 and, um, shelived in mexico city, so I
(39:00):
didn't actually know this abouther.
So I'm rereading all of thisbecause the stories on mexico
city I haven't, um, read those.
So this is what it looks like.
Introduction by lydia davis.
But, yeah, I really recommendit.
A Manual for Cleaning Women.
Lucia Berlin Sounds like agreat book.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Jennifer, thank you for all you do to make the world
a better place for your writingand I highly recommend your
latest book, the Promise Party.
It is fantastic.
Thanks for being on the show.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Thank you, and thank you so much for inviting me.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
I'm really really so grateful.
Thank you, and family, and onsocial media, and remember to
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
thebookshoppodcastcom and makesure to subscribe and leave a
review wherever you listen tothe show.
You can also follow me at MandyJackson Beverly on X, instagram
(40:11):
and Facebook and on YouTube atthe Bookshop Podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
the contact form atthebookshoppodcastcom.
The Bookshop Podcast is writtenand produced by me, mandy
Jackson Beverly, theme musicprovided by Brian Beverly,
(40:33):
executive assistant to Mandy,adrian Otterhan, and graphic
design by Francis Perala.
Thanks for listening and I'llsee you next time.
Thank you.
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