October 1, 2025 • 42 mins
In this episode, I chat with Noël Stark about her debut romantic comedy novel, LOVE, CAMERA, ACTION.
Noël Stark has worked in almost every position in the Film and Television industry, both in front of and behind the camera. Although she’s Canadian, she lives in L.A. with her young son, desperately missing winter. She likes chocolate milk in her coffee and gets most of her real-world intel from her three stepkids.
Here's the synopsis of Love, Camera, Action:
A scrappy TV director lands her big break only to go head-to-head with the surly yet sexy director of photography, in this page-turning romance perfect for fans of Ava Wilder and Tessa Bailey.
Up-and-coming TV director Cali Daniels knows sex. Well, okay, she knows how to shoot sex scenes, and she’s been hired to direct a highly anticipated steamy episode of the popular series The Demon. This job is her chance at a big-time career in the film and television industry—all she has to do is deliver an unparalleled show using her hard-knock know-how and ample creativity.
If only the director of photography—effortlessly sexy Jory Blair—would stop shutting her ideas down at every turn. Jory has spent years cultivating his career as an A-list director of photography, but a recent health scare has him rethinking his life and craving the director spot. Now this creative newbie, who he can’t get out of his mind, wants to change the look of his show. Even worse, the friction between them is sparking into blistering chemistry.
As collaborating takes on a whole new meaning, and the show’s producer not-so-subtly suggests that Jory sabotage Cali in order to achieve his own goals, they’ll have to decide if chasing their dream jobs is worth losing the dream of a future together.
LOVE, CAMERA, ACTION, Noël Stark
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:10):
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson Beverly, and I'm a
bibliophile.
Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
Each week I present interviewswith authors, independent
bookshop owners and booksellersfrom around the globe, and
publishing professionals.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media.
(00:32):
And remember to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to this podcast.
You're listening to episode 309.
Noelle Stark has worked inalmost every position in the
film and television industry,both in front of and behind the
camera.
Although she's Canadian, shelives in Los Angeles with her
(00:55):
son, desperately missing winter.
She likes chocolate milk in hercoffee and gets most of her
real-world intel from her threestepkids.
Love camera action is Dark'sdebut novel.
Here's the short synopsis of thebook.
(01:20):
Hi Noelle and welcome to theshow.
It's great to have you here.
Oh my gosh, thank you for havingme.
You're welcome.
You are Canadian and you live inLos Angeles.
I love Los Angeles.
I think it is such a creativecity.
How about you?
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
I have to say, there's a vibe here of just like
a can-do creative attitude.
And I mean, you know, PaulineKale, if you heard of Pauline
Kale, the critic, she used tosay that LA, um, you could die
of encouragement here.
And I thought that was so funnybecause people are really um
(01:58):
positive and enthusiastic aboutwhat you do.
But coming from a countrythat's, you know, kind of small
C conservative, which is Canada,where it's like everybody's a
little bit, um, are you sure youwant to do that?
Are you thinking that that'sgonna go?
Maybe you should like not go outinto the world so much.
And in LA, uh they're sopositive.
(02:22):
They're such a yes culture.
And even if those yeses arelies, I don't care.
It's such a supportiveenvironment that you just want
to keep creating.
So I I really love LA.
SPEAKER_00 (02:35):
Yeah, we just gotta get the film business back up
and running properly here.
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
Well, if we get stuck into thatsubject, we'll be here for
hours.
Uh, but I'd rather begin withlearning about you and how a
girl from a small town in Canadawent from studying music and
history, evolved into the actingand film industry in front of
(02:56):
and behind the camera.
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
Well, I start, I mean, I was always very, very
creative.
I was acting and singing umsemi-professionally through high
school and in university aswell.
And uh after university, I wentinto the film business just
because I needed a job.
And it was really booming inToronto at the time.
I'm from a small town north ofToronto.
(03:19):
And um, that led me to going toacting school in New York and
pursuing acting for some time.
And then someone, someone saidto me, you know, you should you
should write and direct a shortfilm to boost your acting career
and act in it.
And for whatever reason, andthis is maybe a sign of why I
(03:39):
didn't become a full-time actor,was I thought that was a really
boring idea.
The idea of making a short,however, was very interesting to
me, not me acting in it.
So that must should have been asign.
So I wrote and directed thisshort film that was based on a
Strindberg short play.
And uh it really blew up.
(04:01):
It went to Sundance, it went toTIFF, it went all over the
world, and it launched me intothis career that I just sort of
stumbled into in a way.
And from there, I begandirecting, I was writing, I was
working a lot in reality TV, inscripted.
I was still acting, I was stillperforming, um, but I was very
(04:21):
firmly on the road uh in inbehind the camera.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
And when you look back, do you see a common thread
that weaves through all of thesecreate expressions?
And what are you ultimatelytrying to explore or express
through your work?
SPEAKER_01 (04:36):
Yeah, I thought I it that's such a good question, and
it really made me think aboutthat.
I think I was always veryinterested in the female
perspective.
Uh, I think as an actress, I wasvery frustrated about what roles
were available for women.
You know, you can do okay in TVif you're certain size and if
(04:58):
you're certain look.
And if you're even marginallyoutside of that, um, it makes it
so much more difficult.
Like I'm 5'10, and so because Ididn't have a kind of pixie
build, it made things harder forme.
And so I think I was reallyfrustrated with the lack of
diversity of female roles andfemale stories.
(05:18):
And that was one of the reason Iwrote and directed that short
film, is because I wanted morecontrol over that.
And then as an actress, youdon't have too much control over
that unless you become also aproducer.
So I was always interested infemale stories and female
perspectives in roles that youdon't see women very often.
So when I got the idea, or Iguess the spark to write this
(05:42):
novel, I really wanted to writesomething about a female
director in in TV because therejust weren't that many.
When I started writing thisbook, 7% of directors were
women.
And now it's around 12, which isbetter.
It's not great.
I guess we can say it's gettingthere, right?
Getting there.
(06:02):
But um yeah, I wanted to to talkabout what it's like to be a
woman in power, in creativepower, uh, telling stories in a
male-dominated world.
So I think that's what thethrough line of all my creative
works have been.
And then as a byproduct of that,I've become interested in the
(06:24):
male perspective of how do malesgo forward in this new world in
a non-toxic way?
How do they retain theirwonderful masculinity and drive
and and building and all thegreat things that, you know, Big
M masculinity does while notbeing toxic.
(06:45):
So I have a lot of, I have twostepsons, I have a son, I have a
stepdaughter as well, but I havea lot of boys in my family, and
I'm curious about how they'renegotiating a very different
world.
SPEAKER_00 (06:54):
I find what you're saying really interesting
because having also been in thefilm industry behind the camera,
uh, I know how vicious it can befor women.
Gosh, the 80s and 90s, early2000s, it was brutal.
And over the last few years,I've been thinking about how
that awful toxic masculinity andpatriarchy created uh a super
(07:18):
strong feminist movement.
And in some ways, it's beenreally hard for the young men
growing up now because they'realmost some of them are kind of
too scared to say anything.
Now, when I bring that up withsome people, they say, Oh, well,
that's probably a good thing.
Is it?
I don't know.
I mean, what are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01 (07:36):
You're right.
There are two extremes thatsometimes men aren't sure what
to say, and then there's theother side where men are feeling
like they can say whatever theywant and they have that right,
and uh they're really diggingtheir heels in.
And I I don't necessarily thinkit's a bad thing that men are
afraid to speak in a way becauseit's teaching them to listen a
(08:01):
little bit more.
It's teaching them to say, okay,hold on, like check, check my
privilege, check my perspective.
Is it okay?
I mean, no one wants anyone tobe silent, but sometimes I think
it's okay for men just to bequiet and just to just to gauge
what's going on.
And and I hear you, I think mystepsons who are 27 and 24
(08:24):
frequently get into situationswhere they're afraid to speak.
And I think there's positives tothat.
And I think it's we have tofigure out I think what I'm
trying to figure out in my ownwork is where is the middle
ground?
Where is the middle ground ofholding your place, speaking
your mind, but not doing it in away that harms others or is
(08:46):
disrespectful to others?
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
I love what you said about uh young men who are too
scared to to speak.
It actually gives them time tolisten, and that's what we need
more of.
I completely agree.
I think it's very difficult whenwe have a leader of the country
here and those around him whojust say whatever they think and
they have no filter.
That's harmful.
SPEAKER_01 (09:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
Getting back to your book and the story and the film
industry, it's been myexperience that the people who
work themselves up from maybe aPA, work their way up the
ladder, being on every team onthe set and learning what's
expected, the etiquette of set,and then become either DPs or
(09:28):
directors, producers.
I have found them to be some ofthe best in the industry because
they really understand what ittakes to put a film or a TV
piece or a commercial or a musicvideo together.
And what it is, is it takes ateam who works well together to
get the job done.
And this is one of the throughlines that I felt when I was
(09:51):
reading your book.
Uh, it takes a team.
Kaylee has that experience, butalso you have that experience,
which made the book real toread.
SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
Yeah, I think that's a really astute observation
about people coming up throughthe ranks.
When you when you work in filmand TV, there's so many
different jobs, there's so manythings that need to happen that
that um you really are a workingteam, that when you start from
the bottom, you see how thatworks and you have great respect
(10:21):
for the amount of time andeffort and creativity every
single person puts into that umworking machine.
And you really see when peopleare slacking off, and you really
see when people are, you know,toxin themselves, you know, men
and women.
You can really see the effect onthat because such an intense
(10:42):
job, it's such an intenseproject working in film and TV.
You're working 12, 13, 14 hoursa day with this group that
becomes a fast family, you know,dysfunctional or not, you know,
and you really have to depend oneach other.
It's kind of an alt the ultimatecollaboration.
So some when someone comes infrom the top down and starts
(11:03):
mucking with the like theecosystem of that, it really has
a big fallout.
And that is what I was trying toshow in the in the book as well,
is that when you have your toppeople, your director and your
director of photography notagreeing, it affects the whole
set, it affects everyone andwhat they're doing.
But when they are workingtogether collaboratively, it's
(11:26):
such a joy.
Yeah, it's a beautiful thing.
It really is.
It really is.
It really is.
So I think, yeah, and and that'swhat I wanted to show the
difference between Callie andJory.
Callie's the director, Jory'sthe director of photography, and
Callie had to work up from thebottom.
She couldn't go to school, soshe had to come up from a PA.
Whereas Jory comes from a verydifferent background.
(11:47):
He went to AFI, he went to umUCLA, he he was basically went
into the business from the top.
And so you see that different,you know, those different
perspectives.
SPEAKER_00 (12:00):
Yes, you absolutely do.
And how did your experiencemorph into writing this
fictional story, love, camera,action?
SPEAKER_01 (12:08):
Yeah, that because I also started from the bottom.
I I went to school as an actor,but I also, you know, I worked,
I worked as a PA, I worked as alocations assistant, I worked in
casting, I was I worked almostevery single job.
And so then you get to know allof these people and the
different types of people thattake these jobs.
(12:30):
Like there's often a throughline of uh who's in uh costume
or who's in wardrobe or who's inmakeup, you know.
And uh because I I did so manyjobs in the TV and film
industry, it I I hoped it helpedbring the crew alive because you
(12:51):
see each department as thepeople that they are.
Um, and so that really helped meuh write this book, is is
fulfilling those many roles.
SPEAKER_00 (13:01):
Were there moments when you were writing love
camera action where fiction andpersonal truth blurred for you?
And how did you navigateemotional honesty and
storytelling while maintainingcreative distance?
SPEAKER_01 (13:16):
Yeah, yeah, that is such a good question.
Um, I I did use a lot ofpersonal uh experiences that I
had, as well as experiences offriends of mine and colleagues.
Uh, I sort of blended themtogether.
How to keep creative distancewell, you like you really want
to get in there.
You want to try to get into theemotions of the of the moment of
(13:39):
what it feels like to experiencesexism or what it feels like to
lose control and feel like youdon't have any control over what
you're doing or you know whatyou're putting out into the
world.
And so, yeah, I've had for surelots of personal experiences
with that and creative distance.
I mean, I was thinking aboutthat, and I think in my own
(14:00):
case, I had to work to not havecreative distance.
I had to work at getting indeeper into what everybody did.
It's my first novel, and novelsare so specific in the way that
you have to really get insidepeople's heads.
And the work that I had beendoing up until uh writing a
(14:22):
novel had been mostly usingsubjects, using scripts, and
using the actors to kind ofinterpret those things.
So when you're watching a filmor you're watching a TV show or
a documentary, the viewersprojecting onto those people of
what they think is going on inthose people's minds, right?
In the novel, you gotta know,you gotta know exactly what
(14:46):
those characters are doing.
So for me, for me, I had toclose creative distance.
I had to get into the muck andforce myself to get into there.
Because, you know, sometimesyou're like, oh, I don't, you
know, I don't want to get intothat conflict, or I don't want
to put them through that, or youknow, they have their privacy,
my characters.
(15:07):
It's like, no, you have to getin and and do that, if that
makes sense.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:11):
Yes, absolutely it does.
Uh, love camera action tells thestory of Callie Daniels, known
for her skills directing steamysex love scenes, and she is
hired to direct a sexy episodeof a popular series called The
Demon.
And she's ready to unleash hercreativity.
She sees this as her big chance.
However, the director ofphotography, Jory Blair, has
(15:34):
different ideas.
Have you experienced similarchauvinistic real-life scenes on
set?
And if so, as a woman navigatingcreative leadership roles in
male-dominated spaces, whatinner resources have you
cultivated to sustain your voiceand vision?
And I mean, let's face it,that's really difficult.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
Yeah, it's really hard.
I'm sure have you, you must haveexperienced that as well in your
history.
I of course have experiencedchauvinism, you know, um,
mansplaining, uh, gaslighting,all the things.
And as a woman, you have a verydifficult um uh line to balance
on because you can't be seen asan outspoken feminist because
(16:19):
you'll be seen as a troublemakeror you'll be seen that you're
being hysterical or blowingthings out of proportion.
So you have to find a way tostick up for yourself and your
vision without, oh God, itsounds so gross, but you without
like disturbing male um ego toomuch.
(16:39):
Yeah, I hear you completely.
You're absolutely right.
Because it can rain down onthem.
And it's unfortunate.
When I've worked with all womenin various projects, it is like
something just sloughs off youwhere you don't have to put up
those barriers or um you don'thave to be second-guessing
everything you're doing.
(17:00):
You you can speak in a sort ofunderstood code that I find very
calming, but you just don't findthose situations very often.
I don't know how you well, howyou feel about that.
SPEAKER_00 (17:11):
Well, I left the film industry in the early
2000s, but I can say in myexperience through the 80s and
90s that, oh yeah, it wasterrible.
When you're part of a film crewuh and you're working either
commercial after commercial orvideo or TV series after TV
series or all, you know, monthson a movie, that team becomes
close.
(17:32):
You're sharing personal stories,you know who what everybody
likes to eat and doesn't eat andwho's married and who has kids,
you know, all of this kind ofinformation.
You almost become protective ofeach other.
I found in my experiences withsome male actors who would come
on set, they would disrupt thatharmony.
What would happen is if a malewould be kind of cocky or rude
(17:56):
to a or make a pass at a femaleon the set, it was kind of toxic
in a way that it would spreadthrough all of the other male
members of the crew.
Now, years later, I have hadcrew members come up to me and
say, Hey, I'm really sorry aboutwhat happened then, and uh I
just want you to know that.
And that is a taste of howsociety is changing, and I hope
(18:18):
it continues to do so.
But there were moments on setyears ago where at times women
felt shameful because what wasgoing on, and we shouldn't have
had to feel like that, and weshouldn't have had to spend so
much money on therapy.
SPEAKER_01 (18:32):
Yeah, and this is something that I found really
interesting in terms ofgenerational change, is that I I
started in uh the when, like thelate 90s and carried on through
the early 2000s.
And and at that time there werecertain behaviors that were just
like uh considered normal.
(18:53):
And that you just had to rollwith them and get on with your
job.
And after, you know, the I wouldguess I think the Me Too
movement, the younger women onthe cruise would be pointing out
behaviors that I might notnotice because I had learned to
(19:14):
just disregard them.
And I learned a lot from thembecause they were like, that's
not cool.
And I thought, oh wow, thatisn't cool, you know, and um the
good guys, then there are tonsof good men around.
Yes, they sure are.
Tons, tons.
And and they started noticingand they would start to watch
(19:35):
their behavior.
And, you know, it was the oddman out that would be saying um
inappropriate things and diggingtheir heels in to own that
inappropriateness.
Like there's a number ofdifferent times where I've said
to, you know, usually ma'am, Isaid, Well, you can't really say
that anymore.
And whether it was an idiom orthe way that they were
(19:57):
addressing another woman oranother crew member, and they
just dig in, they say, Why?
It's ridiculous that we'rebeing, you know, told what to
say and when to say it.
And I'm like, Well, yeah,because that wasn't good the way
we were doing it.
It's inappropriate.
So it was really interesting tosee the generational shift.
It was interesting to see how Iwas putting up with a kind of
(20:20):
patriarchy and not even seeingit until the younger women were
pointing it out to me.
SPEAKER_00 (20:24):
And you show that beautifully in Callie's
personality.
You show her vulnerability andthe turmoil that she's having to
deal with while she's trying tobe creative.
Just getting a little deeperinto personalities.
When people are rude, sarcastic,or chauvinistic, quite often
their behavior reflects theirpersonal insecurities.
(20:45):
Now, in Jory's case, in yourbook, his insecurity is fueled
by a recent health scare andfeeling undermined when the
producers and the productioncompany hire Callie to direct.
He feels his experience in thefilm industry is way above hers.
Can you explain the differenceof authority and relationship
(21:05):
between DPs and directors on TVshows as opposed to film sets
where you might have threecameras, uh, directors getting
credit, etc.?
And have you experienced thistension?
And if so, how did you deal withit?
SPEAKER_01 (21:20):
Yeah, I think, you know, in a in a film, in the
film world, a DP and a directorwork very closely together from
the start.
They have decided on a vision,they've decided that they work
well together, and they go frombeginning to end.
They're very much a team.
Um, and and film is kind of adirector's medium.
(21:41):
It's it's the director sets thetone for everything and works
with everyone to follow throughwith that tone.
And and the director ofphotography is their close,
close ally.
And TV, it's different becausethe directors often, aside from
the ones who start the show off,the that start the first or
second episode, the otherdirectors that kind of fly in on
(22:01):
the sixth or seventh or tenth oreleventh, they're kind of just
hired guns.
And the um the director ofphotography has has started the
show from the beginning and goesall the way through in the
series, most of the time.
Sometimes on big shows like Gameof Thrones, they split up the
directors of photography justbecause it's impossible to like
(22:23):
have one person do all that.
But most series have the samedirector of photography all the
way through, and then a directorwill come in and shoot just a
couple of episodes.
So in Jory's mind, this is hisshow.
He set the visual tone, he's,you know, uh shepherded the crew
through all of these otherepisodes and the ups and downs
of what a first season means,because first seasons are very,
(22:46):
very tricky to do.
Everybody's finding their feet,you know, uh narratively and
visually and all these things.
And here comes this woman, youknow, bright-eyed and
bushy-tailed, ready to makechanges, ready to show her
creative worth, which, you know,you can't blame her, but he's
like, Oh God, I just want to getthrough my day.
(23:07):
You know, I don't want to hearnew ideas.
I just want things to clickalong as like I'm tired.
So um he feels like he needs toprotect his crew from
potentially a rogue directorthat has been pulled in at the
last minute.
And he's he's trying to protecthis creative vision as well as
(23:30):
the crew's time and energy.
And so he sees Callie as kind ofa threat.
Now, you know, because hestarted from the top, he's he's
got a certain arrogance to him.
He doesn't know what it's liketo come from the bottom and to
struggle.
So he's got a bit of a blindspot there where he has to learn
(23:50):
to be a little bit more open andempathetic to different voices
and different outlooks.
And this was what I was tryingto explore in terms of um how do
men work in this world thatwe're moving towards?
Because up until this time, menhave just been surrounded
generally by other men.
And there's a shorthand thatthey speak to each other and
(24:11):
there's a hierarchy, and andthey're all kind of taught, you
know, you have to stick to yourvision and you have to be a
leader.
And collaboration is wrong insome ways.
Whereas women, I think, aresocialized much differently.
We're socialized to becollaborating, collaborators
were socialized to listen andthink about other perspectives
more.
And so that makes clash.
(24:32):
And so he has to figure out howto be a little bit more
collaborative.
He has to figure out how tolisten to a different viewpoint,
a different language.
And that's his that's hisjourney.
He's gotta, he's gotta learnfrom that while he's under the
duress of having a health scareand managing the crew and
falling in love with this personthat he should not be falling in
(24:54):
love with.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:56):
I love what you just said about uh teams looking
after each other.
For example, you know, the KeyGrip and their team and the
Gaffer and their lighting creware often hired by the DP.
So they are quite protective ofthat person.
And I found that with the GlamSquad, uh costumes, hair, and
makeup, they tend to gatheraround the actor or the actress
(25:20):
and uh really protect them.
And in your story, you nailedthat connection and that
protectiveness of crew members.
It kind of brought back a lot ofmemories for me.
I particularly enjoyed thescenes where a certain couple
would set up these liaisons onthe set where no one could see
them or where they thought noone could see them.
That was cute.
(25:40):
Anyway, I would like to talkabout a line that is on page
167.
When Callia is reflecting on herpast relationships, you write,
quote, men were ultimately adrain on one's resources, end
quote.
Now, for many people inrelationships, there is a time
when this thought rumbles intheir consciousness regarding
(26:01):
their partner.
What are your thoughts?
And did a personal experienceprompt this line?
SPEAKER_01 (26:06):
Yeah, I think okay, so where that comes from in
Callie's journey is that she umwitnessed her mother who had
some, you know, mental healthdifficulties and her sister go
through tons and tons ofrelationships, like very toxic
relationships where they gave upeverything for the men in their
lives.
And I think we all know peoplelike that.
Um, I think we as women, we areagain socialized to do that.
(26:32):
And um, Callie made a firmdecision to never do that
because she didn't want to getinto that situation.
And so that's why she doesn't,she doesn't want to fall in love
with Jory because she doesn't,she doesn't believe in love.
She doesn't believe, you know,that partnerships can work
because she's never seen apartnership work.
Um from my own personalexperience, yeah, for sure.
(26:54):
I mean, I've I've uh, you know,I separated from my husband
because of that, because it feltlike there was too much, like
there were many reasons, ofcourse, but um there was such a
uh uh imbalance of labor,emotional labor, physical labor,
child labor.
And you know, we're moving intoa time where a lot of women are
(27:17):
seeing those imbalances.
Like there's 70% of the divorcecases that are or that are filed
are from women, and it's oftenbecause they are exhausted.
It's a thing that's happening.
And I think women are are wakingup to it.
And because they don't have todepend on men economically, they
don't have to depend on them foremotional support, it's easier
(27:40):
for them to make those choicesnow.
SPEAKER_00 (27:43):
Yeah, that's true.
Now, let's talk about the themeof vulnerability: physical,
emotional, and professional.
It appears to underpin some ofyour character's conflicts.
I'm talking about Jory andCallie.
Um, what does vulnerability meanto you in your life and career?
SPEAKER_01 (28:01):
Yeah, I think this is something that's really um
important for everybody in acreative field, but in any kind
of field, is to understand thestrength in vulnerability.
Um, I think, again, we've beentaught, and men especially, that
vulnerability is a weakness,that you shouldn't show it.
You always have to be strong,you always have to be the
(28:24):
leader, you always have to likenot listen to outside ideas.
This kind of question ofautourism, especially in film,
where it's like the one voice isthe voice that carries it
through.
There, that does not exist.
There is never one voice,especially in film and TV.
There's so many voices incollaborations.
And so it was something that I'malways thinking about is like,
(28:46):
when are you allowed to bevulnerable?
When should you not bevulnerable?
Um as a woman, you're socializedto think that again,
vulnerability is something thatyou can't show in your job
because you will be denigratedor told that you're hysterical.
But I think our world, peopleare yearning for vulnerability.
(29:07):
And I think you see that onTikTok, you see it on Instagram.
When when someone's beinggenuinely vulnerable, it always
goes viral because you're like,oh my gosh, someone's being like
speaking their truth kind ofthing.
Of course, that can also runrampant on the other side, but
we won't we won't get into that.
But yeah, so vulnerability issomething that I think is is
(29:28):
very important that we all kindof look at.
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
It kind of gets back to uh what we're talking about
earlier with young men andfeeling like they can't speak at
times.
And I think that brings backthat word vulnerability.
I wonder if perhaps young menare starting to feel this word,
this emotion of feelingvulnerable.
And it all gets back to what youwere talking about about
(29:52):
listening and trying to be moreempathetic to each other.
SPEAKER_01 (29:56):
A hundred percent.
Yeah, and I think because youknow, Mountain.
Now men are told that theyshould be re vulnerable and
they're like, Well, how the heckam I supposed to do that?
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (30:06):
You know?
Yeah.
And especially if you've comefrom a family where nobody
talked about relationships, thatmust be so difficult to learn
about being vulnerable and thatwhat that word really means, let
alone putting that into yourdaily uh life situations.
SPEAKER_01 (30:25):
Yeah, I think it's really hard.
I think, like, you know, justwatching my son grow up and how
limited uh boys are allowed tobe, just in the very colors that
they wear.
I remember saying, you know, Iwould always put him in pinks or
pastels because he liked them.
Um, and but also to prove, hey,you can you can all colors are
(30:47):
for everybody.
You can rock it.
You don't have to stick to blackand blue.
And so, but then you see like somany boys just in black and
blue.
And what does that mean to themif they can't have red or they
can't have purple or they can'thave different shades of green?
It's it's sort of it's hard.
SPEAKER_00 (31:07):
So yeah.
Yeah, I mean, the colors youwear are such a personal thing,
you know.
I'm I could go on about colorsand what we wear for a long
time, but you know what?
I would rather hear about yourpublishing story from your
finished manuscript to findingan agent and landing a
publishing deal.
It was long.
SPEAKER_01 (31:29):
It was really long.
Um, it was uh my my novel took along time because I was working
in the film industry and and uhI was I'm a single mom at this
point, and so it took a longtime to steal time to write it.
And I got into a thing calledPitch Wars, which was a
volunteer run but very highlyregarded.
(31:53):
Um I don't know what likementoring program.
And I I my manuscript got in anduh like it was they took, I
don't know, maybe 50 romancenovels and 4,000 people applied,
kind of thing.
And I got in very happily, got amentor, and then they gave me a
showcase after that manuscriptwas finished.
(32:15):
So uh that meant that agentswere sort of introduced to my
work.
Now I didn't get an agent fromthat showcase, but because I was
able to put pitch words on myquerying letter, people took
more notice because they knewthat it had been vetted, like
this this project had beenvetted to a certain degree.
And it took uh it took about sixor seven months for me to get an
(32:43):
agent from that time afterquerying 45 different agents.
And I thought that was crazy,but people were saying to me,
you you don't give up on thatmanuscript until about 70 or 80
queries.
That's when you decide to put itto bed and try something else.
So around 45, I got I got myagent, and it was great.
(33:05):
He was starting out, so it wasgood because we were both
starting out, and that's where alot of new writers can get
agents is agents who are, youknow, starting their own
careers.
And then he started submittingme.
Now, a year later, I wasn'tgetting anything.
Uh, but he and he decided hedidn't want to be in the
business anymore, and so hedecided to uh he to get out, but
(33:27):
would introduce me to an agentat at the at the agency, the
same agency.
And in that time where he saidhe wasn't going to be working
there anymore, he uh sold thebook.
And so he sold the book, I gotthe new agent, and then once I
signed that contract, it tookanother year and a half for a
(33:50):
bit to come out.
So it was really a long, longprocess for me.
I think because working in thefilm and TV industry, you know
that sometimes things can golike that, and sometimes, and by
that I mean really quickly, andsometimes things just take
forever.
So because I had so many thingsgoing on at the time, I didn't
(34:11):
worry about it as much as say anewbie might who might be
checking, you know, theirquerying letters every five
seconds to see who has read thebook or who is asking for an
NMS.
I I had been run through theringer already in film and TV.
So it I didn't bother me asmuch.
And that was a real godsend, ina way.
SPEAKER_00 (34:30):
Quite a few readers who I've spoken with think that,
you know, authors are making alot of money.
That is a rarity.
Let's get that clear.
Yes, there are authors who havebeen around a long time and they
uh quite often have a largebacklist.
And uh yes, they are making alot of money.
But generally speaking, most ofthe authors I know have not
given up their other job orthey're working part-time,
(34:54):
giving them time to write.
And I think this is a good thingfor um writers who are starting
out to remember.
It's not about giving up yourday job, it's about how to find
creativity through your day job.
Because it because it doesn'tstop once you have perhaps found
(35:14):
an agent and a publishing deal,because you need to have started
writing or be halfway throughyour second book.
And I know that's probablysounding easy the way I'm saying
it, and it's definitely not, butkeeping positive about writing
while you have another job makeswriting easier and being
(35:36):
creative easier.
SPEAKER_01 (35:37):
Yeah, I agree.
I agree.
You need a stability to be ableto write so that you're not
always afraid of where the nextpaycheck is coming from.
But also those day jobs can giveyou a lot of material.
A lot of material.
So I think you're right.
And yes, you do have to bewriting that second book.
(35:58):
The second my first book wasdone and I was querying, I
started my second book.
And so now, you know, LoveCamera Action came out in April.
I've got my second book onsubmission, and now I'm starting
my third book.
So you really have to be, yeah,you have to be consistent and
diligent.
Um, and assuming you like doingit.
(36:18):
I mean, people do ask me if Ilove writing, and I would say,
no, I don't.
It's it's horrible.
Horrible.
Because you're putting yourselfthrough the ringer in so many
different ways, emotionally,financially, time-wise, but I'm
compelled to do it.
I'm more miserable not doing itthan I am doing it, and that's
(36:40):
what's kind of getting methrough.
SPEAKER_00 (36:42):
I think that's a great quote.
I'll have to use that when I'mpromoting your episode.
Okay, I have a couple morequestions.
One of them is Do you believethe creative process changes the
creator?
And if so, in what ways haswriting this novel, Love Camera
Action, changed you?
Oh my god, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (37:01):
Oh my gosh, why do it if it doesn't create doesn't
change you?
Like, didn't it change you whenyou were doing with being a
costumer?
Yes, absolutely.
Each creation changes you, itmakes you listen to people more,
it makes you connect with peoplemore, it makes you connect to
yourself more, it makes youunderstand what you think is
important and what you think itisn't, and it also makes you
(37:24):
very humble.
There's some criticism aboutlove camera action that makes me
really sit down and go, Oh,okay, that's an interesting
perspective.
And you have to be thickskinned, but also listen to when
people have criticisms aboutyour work.
And it's not easy.
It is not easy, but it makesyou, I would say, I mean, not to
(37:46):
toot my own horn, but a moreinteresting person.
SPEAKER_00 (37:50):
Yes, absolutely.
One thing I will say though,there are negative reviews, uh,
so many on Amazon that reallydon't make any sense.
So I tell people, you know what,don't read any of the Amazon
reviews or the Goodreads reviewsquite often.
Uh, the ones that really matterare written by people who really
do understand writing.
(38:11):
The other thing is you have tothink of a bad review like a
bruise.
It will fade over time.
I love that.
I love that.
You can listen, like you said,take in what you feel you need
to take in to learn, but thenyou just have to let it go,
which I know sounds easy andit's incredibly hard, but that's
all we can do.
(38:31):
I find it hard to uh think thatanyone is giving you negative
reviews about love camera actionbecause honestly, it just made
me feel good.
And I need it.
We all need to feel good, right?
It's a hard world out there.
Okay, let's talk books.
What are you currently reading?
Well, I'm actually going througha sci-fi summer.
SPEAKER_01 (38:50):
Well, that sounds like fun.
So yeah, but I know it's so fun.
I don't know why.
Like sometimes I'll go through agothic summer and sometimes
other types of, but it's asci-fi summer.
So I just finished Andy Weir'sproject, Hail Mary.
It's really fun.
It's really fun.
It's, you know, very sciencey,and I am not a science person.
(39:12):
So I kind of glossed over somethings.
Like my my eyes kind of gotglassy, but it's a really fun
exploration of space and whatwould you do if you were stuck
in space and all alone anddidn't know who you were.
So it was it was a lot of fun.
That's also why I love romance.
Like, and just back to what youwere saying, romance is actually
(39:34):
meant to make you feel good.
It is meant to be an escape, itis meant to be read in a few
hours because it is uh arelease.
You know that there's gonna be ahappy ending.
So you're okay with goingthrough the trials and
tribulations of these people.
You're not scared to feel allthose things because you know
it's gonna be okay.
(39:56):
And there's a really importantplace for that kind of
literature.
Like I've gone through, I'vegone through my literary fiction
phase, and that's it's amazingpros, it's amazing um stories,
but sometimes I just get scaredbecause I I'm like, I don't know
what's gonna happen to thesepeople.
Can I handle it?
(40:16):
And with romance, you don't haveto worry about that.
You can relax, you can escape,you can laugh, you can, you
know, be sad because you knowit'll be okay at the end.
And that's what romance is kindof for.
SPEAKER_00 (40:29):
So your next books are gonna be rom-cons too?
They are rom-cons, yes.
Oh, good.
I'll look forward to readingthem.
Let me know when they're closeto being published because I
would love to have you back onthe show.
SPEAKER_01 (40:41):
Well, I would love to come back too because I want
to hear some of your stories aswell.
I'll have to be careful, or theymay end up in a book.
Yeah, some of them they can't beuh for public consumption, for
sure.
SPEAKER_00 (40:55):
Noelle, it's been great having you on the show.
I've had a lot of giggles, and Ilove your book, Love Camera
Action.
SPEAKER_01 (41:02):
Thank you so much, Mandy.
This has been a real joy.
SPEAKER_00 (41:04):
It's so fun to talk to you.
You've been listening to myconversation with Noelle Stark
about her book Love CameraAction.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media.
And remember to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to this podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
(41:26):
thebookshoppodcast.com.
And make sure to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to the show.
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If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
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(41:48):
the contact form at thebookshoppodcast.com.
The Bookshop Podcast is writtenand produced by me, Mandy
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Theme music provided by BrianBeverly, and my executive
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Thanks for listening, and I'llsee you next time.
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson Beverly, and I'm a
bibliophile.
Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
Each week I present interviewswith authors, independent
bookshop owners and booksellersfrom around the globe, and
publishing professionals.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media.
(00:32):
And remember to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to this podcast.
You're listening to episode 309.
Noelle Stark has worked inalmost every position in the
film and television industry,both in front of and behind the
camera.
Although she's Canadian, shelives in Los Angeles with her
(00:55):
son, desperately missing winter.
She likes chocolate milk in hercoffee and gets most of her
real-world intel from her threestepkids.
Love camera action is Dark'sdebut novel.
Here's the short synopsis of thebook.
(01:20):
Hi Noelle and welcome to theshow.
It's great to have you here.
Oh my gosh, thank you for havingme.
You're welcome.
You are Canadian and you live inLos Angeles.
I love Los Angeles.
I think it is such a creativecity.
How about you?
SPEAKER_01 (01:35):
I have to say, there's a vibe here of just like
a can-do creative attitude.
And I mean, you know, PaulineKale, if you heard of Pauline
Kale, the critic, she used tosay that LA, um, you could die
of encouragement here.
And I thought that was so funnybecause people are really um
(01:58):
positive and enthusiastic aboutwhat you do.
But coming from a countrythat's, you know, kind of small
C conservative, which is Canada,where it's like everybody's a
little bit, um, are you sure youwant to do that?
Are you thinking that that'sgonna go?
Maybe you should like not go outinto the world so much.
And in LA, uh they're sopositive.
(02:22):
They're such a yes culture.
And even if those yeses arelies, I don't care.
It's such a supportiveenvironment that you just want
to keep creating.
So I I really love LA.
SPEAKER_00 (02:35):
Yeah, we just gotta get the film business back up
and running properly here.
Yes.
Oh my gosh.
Well, if we get stuck into thatsubject, we'll be here for
hours.
Uh, but I'd rather begin withlearning about you and how a
girl from a small town in Canadawent from studying music and
history, evolved into the actingand film industry in front of
(02:56):
and behind the camera.
SPEAKER_01 (02:58):
Well, I start, I mean, I was always very, very
creative.
I was acting and singing umsemi-professionally through high
school and in university aswell.
And uh after university, I wentinto the film business just
because I needed a job.
And it was really booming inToronto at the time.
I'm from a small town north ofToronto.
(03:19):
And um, that led me to going toacting school in New York and
pursuing acting for some time.
And then someone, someone saidto me, you know, you should you
should write and direct a shortfilm to boost your acting career
and act in it.
And for whatever reason, andthis is maybe a sign of why I
(03:39):
didn't become a full-time actor,was I thought that was a really
boring idea.
The idea of making a short,however, was very interesting to
me, not me acting in it.
So that must should have been asign.
So I wrote and directed thisshort film that was based on a
Strindberg short play.
And uh it really blew up.
(04:01):
It went to Sundance, it went toTIFF, it went all over the
world, and it launched me intothis career that I just sort of
stumbled into in a way.
And from there, I begandirecting, I was writing, I was
working a lot in reality TV, inscripted.
I was still acting, I was stillperforming, um, but I was very
(04:21):
firmly on the road uh in inbehind the camera.
SPEAKER_00 (04:26):
And when you look back, do you see a common thread
that weaves through all of thesecreate expressions?
And what are you ultimatelytrying to explore or express
through your work?
SPEAKER_01 (04:36):
Yeah, I thought I it that's such a good question, and
it really made me think aboutthat.
I think I was always veryinterested in the female
perspective.
Uh, I think as an actress, I wasvery frustrated about what roles
were available for women.
You know, you can do okay in TVif you're certain size and if
(04:58):
you're certain look.
And if you're even marginallyoutside of that, um, it makes it
so much more difficult.
Like I'm 5'10, and so because Ididn't have a kind of pixie
build, it made things harder forme.
And so I think I was reallyfrustrated with the lack of
diversity of female roles andfemale stories.
(05:18):
And that was one of the reason Iwrote and directed that short
film, is because I wanted morecontrol over that.
And then as an actress, youdon't have too much control over
that unless you become also aproducer.
So I was always interested infemale stories and female
perspectives in roles that youdon't see women very often.
So when I got the idea, or Iguess the spark to write this
(05:42):
novel, I really wanted to writesomething about a female
director in in TV because therejust weren't that many.
When I started writing thisbook, 7% of directors were
women.
And now it's around 12, which isbetter.
It's not great.
I guess we can say it's gettingthere, right?
Getting there.
(06:02):
But um yeah, I wanted to to talkabout what it's like to be a
woman in power, in creativepower, uh, telling stories in a
male-dominated world.
So I think that's what thethrough line of all my creative
works have been.
And then as a byproduct of that,I've become interested in the
(06:24):
male perspective of how do malesgo forward in this new world in
a non-toxic way?
How do they retain theirwonderful masculinity and drive
and and building and all thegreat things that, you know, Big
M masculinity does while notbeing toxic.
(06:45):
So I have a lot of, I have twostepsons, I have a son, I have a
stepdaughter as well, but I havea lot of boys in my family, and
I'm curious about how they'renegotiating a very different
world.
SPEAKER_00 (06:54):
I find what you're saying really interesting
because having also been in thefilm industry behind the camera,
uh, I know how vicious it can befor women.
Gosh, the 80s and 90s, early2000s, it was brutal.
And over the last few years,I've been thinking about how
that awful toxic masculinity andpatriarchy created uh a super
(07:18):
strong feminist movement.
And in some ways, it's beenreally hard for the young men
growing up now because they'realmost some of them are kind of
too scared to say anything.
Now, when I bring that up withsome people, they say, Oh, well,
that's probably a good thing.
Is it?
I don't know.
I mean, what are your thoughts?
SPEAKER_01 (07:36):
You're right.
There are two extremes thatsometimes men aren't sure what
to say, and then there's theother side where men are feeling
like they can say whatever theywant and they have that right,
and uh they're really diggingtheir heels in.
And I I don't necessarily thinkit's a bad thing that men are
afraid to speak in a way becauseit's teaching them to listen a
(08:01):
little bit more.
It's teaching them to say, okay,hold on, like check, check my
privilege, check my perspective.
Is it okay?
I mean, no one wants anyone tobe silent, but sometimes I think
it's okay for men just to bequiet and just to just to gauge
what's going on.
And and I hear you, I think mystepsons who are 27 and 24
(08:24):
frequently get into situationswhere they're afraid to speak.
And I think there's positives tothat.
And I think it's we have tofigure out I think what I'm
trying to figure out in my ownwork is where is the middle
ground?
Where is the middle ground ofholding your place, speaking
your mind, but not doing it in away that harms others or is
(08:46):
disrespectful to others?
SPEAKER_00 (08:48):
I love what you said about uh young men who are too
scared to to speak.
It actually gives them time tolisten, and that's what we need
more of.
I completely agree.
I think it's very difficult whenwe have a leader of the country
here and those around him whojust say whatever they think and
they have no filter.
That's harmful.
SPEAKER_01 (09:06):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (09:07):
Getting back to your book and the story and the film
industry, it's been myexperience that the people who
work themselves up from maybe aPA, work their way up the
ladder, being on every team onthe set and learning what's
expected, the etiquette of set,and then become either DPs or
(09:28):
directors, producers.
I have found them to be some ofthe best in the industry because
they really understand what ittakes to put a film or a TV
piece or a commercial or a musicvideo together.
And what it is, is it takes ateam who works well together to
get the job done.
And this is one of the throughlines that I felt when I was
(09:51):
reading your book.
Uh, it takes a team.
Kaylee has that experience, butalso you have that experience,
which made the book real toread.
SPEAKER_01 (10:00):
Yeah, I think that's a really astute observation
about people coming up throughthe ranks.
When you when you work in filmand TV, there's so many
different jobs, there's so manythings that need to happen that
that um you really are a workingteam, that when you start from
the bottom, you see how thatworks and you have great respect
(10:21):
for the amount of time andeffort and creativity every
single person puts into that umworking machine.
And you really see when peopleare slacking off, and you really
see when people are, you know,toxin themselves, you know, men
and women.
You can really see the effect onthat because such an intense
(10:42):
job, it's such an intenseproject working in film and TV.
You're working 12, 13, 14 hoursa day with this group that
becomes a fast family, you know,dysfunctional or not, you know,
and you really have to depend oneach other.
It's kind of an alt the ultimatecollaboration.
So some when someone comes infrom the top down and starts
(11:03):
mucking with the like theecosystem of that, it really has
a big fallout.
And that is what I was trying toshow in the in the book as well,
is that when you have your toppeople, your director and your
director of photography notagreeing, it affects the whole
set, it affects everyone andwhat they're doing.
But when they are workingtogether collaboratively, it's
(11:26):
such a joy.
Yeah, it's a beautiful thing.
It really is.
It really is.
It really is.
So I think, yeah, and and that'swhat I wanted to show the
difference between Callie andJory.
Callie's the director, Jory'sthe director of photography, and
Callie had to work up from thebottom.
She couldn't go to school, soshe had to come up from a PA.
Whereas Jory comes from a verydifferent background.
(11:47):
He went to AFI, he went to umUCLA, he he was basically went
into the business from the top.
And so you see that different,you know, those different
perspectives.
SPEAKER_00 (12:00):
Yes, you absolutely do.
And how did your experiencemorph into writing this
fictional story, love, camera,action?
SPEAKER_01 (12:08):
Yeah, that because I also started from the bottom.
I I went to school as an actor,but I also, you know, I worked,
I worked as a PA, I worked as alocations assistant, I worked in
casting, I was I worked almostevery single job.
And so then you get to know allof these people and the
different types of people thattake these jobs.
(12:30):
Like there's often a throughline of uh who's in uh costume
or who's in wardrobe or who's inmakeup, you know.
And uh because I I did so manyjobs in the TV and film
industry, it I I hoped it helpedbring the crew alive because you
(12:51):
see each department as thepeople that they are.
Um, and so that really helped meuh write this book, is is
fulfilling those many roles.
SPEAKER_00 (13:01):
Were there moments when you were writing love
camera action where fiction andpersonal truth blurred for you?
And how did you navigateemotional honesty and
storytelling while maintainingcreative distance?
SPEAKER_01 (13:16):
Yeah, yeah, that is such a good question.
Um, I I did use a lot ofpersonal uh experiences that I
had, as well as experiences offriends of mine and colleagues.
Uh, I sort of blended themtogether.
How to keep creative distancewell, you like you really want
to get in there.
You want to try to get into theemotions of the of the moment of
(13:39):
what it feels like to experiencesexism or what it feels like to
lose control and feel like youdon't have any control over what
you're doing or you know whatyou're putting out into the
world.
And so, yeah, I've had for surelots of personal experiences
with that and creative distance.
I mean, I was thinking aboutthat, and I think in my own
(14:00):
case, I had to work to not havecreative distance.
I had to work at getting indeeper into what everybody did.
It's my first novel, and novelsare so specific in the way that
you have to really get insidepeople's heads.
And the work that I had beendoing up until uh writing a
(14:22):
novel had been mostly usingsubjects, using scripts, and
using the actors to kind ofinterpret those things.
So when you're watching a filmor you're watching a TV show or
a documentary, the viewersprojecting onto those people of
what they think is going on inthose people's minds, right?
In the novel, you gotta know,you gotta know exactly what
(14:46):
those characters are doing.
So for me, for me, I had toclose creative distance.
I had to get into the muck andforce myself to get into there.
Because, you know, sometimesyou're like, oh, I don't, you
know, I don't want to get intothat conflict, or I don't want
to put them through that, or youknow, they have their privacy,
my characters.
(15:07):
It's like, no, you have to getin and and do that, if that
makes sense.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (15:11):
Yes, absolutely it does.
Uh, love camera action tells thestory of Callie Daniels, known
for her skills directing steamysex love scenes, and she is
hired to direct a sexy episodeof a popular series called The
Demon.
And she's ready to unleash hercreativity.
She sees this as her big chance.
However, the director ofphotography, Jory Blair, has
(15:34):
different ideas.
Have you experienced similarchauvinistic real-life scenes on
set?
And if so, as a woman navigatingcreative leadership roles in
male-dominated spaces, whatinner resources have you
cultivated to sustain your voiceand vision?
And I mean, let's face it,that's really difficult.
SPEAKER_01 (15:55):
Yeah, it's really hard.
I'm sure have you, you must haveexperienced that as well in your
history.
I of course have experiencedchauvinism, you know, um,
mansplaining, uh, gaslighting,all the things.
And as a woman, you have a verydifficult um uh line to balance
on because you can't be seen asan outspoken feminist because
(16:19):
you'll be seen as a troublemakeror you'll be seen that you're
being hysterical or blowingthings out of proportion.
So you have to find a way tostick up for yourself and your
vision without, oh God, itsounds so gross, but you without
like disturbing male um ego toomuch.
(16:39):
Yeah, I hear you completely.
You're absolutely right.
Because it can rain down onthem.
And it's unfortunate.
When I've worked with all womenin various projects, it is like
something just sloughs off youwhere you don't have to put up
those barriers or um you don'thave to be second-guessing
everything you're doing.
(17:00):
You you can speak in a sort ofunderstood code that I find very
calming, but you just don't findthose situations very often.
I don't know how you well, howyou feel about that.
SPEAKER_00 (17:11):
Well, I left the film industry in the early
2000s, but I can say in myexperience through the 80s and
90s that, oh yeah, it wasterrible.
When you're part of a film crewuh and you're working either
commercial after commercial orvideo or TV series after TV
series or all, you know, monthson a movie, that team becomes
close.
(17:32):
You're sharing personal stories,you know who what everybody
likes to eat and doesn't eat andwho's married and who has kids,
you know, all of this kind ofinformation.
You almost become protective ofeach other.
I found in my experiences withsome male actors who would come
on set, they would disrupt thatharmony.
What would happen is if a malewould be kind of cocky or rude
(17:56):
to a or make a pass at a femaleon the set, it was kind of toxic
in a way that it would spreadthrough all of the other male
members of the crew.
Now, years later, I have hadcrew members come up to me and
say, Hey, I'm really sorry aboutwhat happened then, and uh I
just want you to know that.
And that is a taste of howsociety is changing, and I hope
(18:18):
it continues to do so.
But there were moments on setyears ago where at times women
felt shameful because what wasgoing on, and we shouldn't have
had to feel like that, and weshouldn't have had to spend so
much money on therapy.
SPEAKER_01 (18:32):
Yeah, and this is something that I found really
interesting in terms ofgenerational change, is that I I
started in uh the when, like thelate 90s and carried on through
the early 2000s.
And and at that time there werecertain behaviors that were just
like uh considered normal.
(18:53):
And that you just had to rollwith them and get on with your
job.
And after, you know, the I wouldguess I think the Me Too
movement, the younger women onthe cruise would be pointing out
behaviors that I might notnotice because I had learned to
(19:14):
just disregard them.
And I learned a lot from thembecause they were like, that's
not cool.
And I thought, oh wow, thatisn't cool, you know, and um the
good guys, then there are tonsof good men around.
Yes, they sure are.
Tons, tons.
And and they started noticingand they would start to watch
(19:35):
their behavior.
And, you know, it was the oddman out that would be saying um
inappropriate things and diggingtheir heels in to own that
inappropriateness.
Like there's a number ofdifferent times where I've said
to, you know, usually ma'am, Isaid, Well, you can't really say
that anymore.
And whether it was an idiom orthe way that they were
(19:57):
addressing another woman oranother crew member, and they
just dig in, they say, Why?
It's ridiculous that we'rebeing, you know, told what to
say and when to say it.
And I'm like, Well, yeah,because that wasn't good the way
we were doing it.
It's inappropriate.
So it was really interesting tosee the generational shift.
It was interesting to see how Iwas putting up with a kind of
(20:20):
patriarchy and not even seeingit until the younger women were
pointing it out to me.
SPEAKER_00 (20:24):
And you show that beautifully in Callie's
personality.
You show her vulnerability andthe turmoil that she's having to
deal with while she's trying tobe creative.
Just getting a little deeperinto personalities.
When people are rude, sarcastic,or chauvinistic, quite often
their behavior reflects theirpersonal insecurities.
(20:45):
Now, in Jory's case, in yourbook, his insecurity is fueled
by a recent health scare andfeeling undermined when the
producers and the productioncompany hire Callie to direct.
He feels his experience in thefilm industry is way above hers.
Can you explain the differenceof authority and relationship
(21:05):
between DPs and directors on TVshows as opposed to film sets
where you might have threecameras, uh, directors getting
credit, etc.?
And have you experienced thistension?
And if so, how did you deal withit?
SPEAKER_01 (21:20):
Yeah, I think, you know, in a in a film, in the
film world, a DP and a directorwork very closely together from
the start.
They have decided on a vision,they've decided that they work
well together, and they go frombeginning to end.
They're very much a team.
Um, and and film is kind of adirector's medium.
(21:41):
It's it's the director sets thetone for everything and works
with everyone to follow throughwith that tone.
And and the director ofphotography is their close,
close ally.
And TV, it's different becausethe directors often, aside from
the ones who start the show off,the that start the first or
second episode, the otherdirectors that kind of fly in on
(22:01):
the sixth or seventh or tenth oreleventh, they're kind of just
hired guns.
And the um the director ofphotography has has started the
show from the beginning and goesall the way through in the
series, most of the time.
Sometimes on big shows like Gameof Thrones, they split up the
directors of photography justbecause it's impossible to like
(22:23):
have one person do all that.
But most series have the samedirector of photography all the
way through, and then a directorwill come in and shoot just a
couple of episodes.
So in Jory's mind, this is hisshow.
He set the visual tone, he's,you know, uh shepherded the crew
through all of these otherepisodes and the ups and downs
of what a first season means,because first seasons are very,
(22:46):
very tricky to do.
Everybody's finding their feet,you know, uh narratively and
visually and all these things.
And here comes this woman, youknow, bright-eyed and
bushy-tailed, ready to makechanges, ready to show her
creative worth, which, you know,you can't blame her, but he's
like, Oh God, I just want to getthrough my day.
(23:07):
You know, I don't want to hearnew ideas.
I just want things to clickalong as like I'm tired.
So um he feels like he needs toprotect his crew from
potentially a rogue directorthat has been pulled in at the
last minute.
And he's he's trying to protecthis creative vision as well as
(23:30):
the crew's time and energy.
And so he sees Callie as kind ofa threat.
Now, you know, because hestarted from the top, he's he's
got a certain arrogance to him.
He doesn't know what it's liketo come from the bottom and to
struggle.
So he's got a bit of a blindspot there where he has to learn
(23:50):
to be a little bit more open andempathetic to different voices
and different outlooks.
And this was what I was tryingto explore in terms of um how do
men work in this world thatwe're moving towards?
Because up until this time, menhave just been surrounded
generally by other men.
And there's a shorthand thatthey speak to each other and
(24:11):
there's a hierarchy, and andthey're all kind of taught, you
know, you have to stick to yourvision and you have to be a
leader.
And collaboration is wrong insome ways.
Whereas women, I think, aresocialized much differently.
We're socialized to becollaborating, collaborators
were socialized to listen andthink about other perspectives
more.
And so that makes clash.
(24:32):
And so he has to figure out howto be a little bit more
collaborative.
He has to figure out how tolisten to a different viewpoint,
a different language.
And that's his that's hisjourney.
He's gotta, he's gotta learnfrom that while he's under the
duress of having a health scareand managing the crew and
falling in love with this personthat he should not be falling in
(24:54):
love with.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (24:56):
I love what you just said about uh teams looking
after each other.
For example, you know, the KeyGrip and their team and the
Gaffer and their lighting creware often hired by the DP.
So they are quite protective ofthat person.
And I found that with the GlamSquad, uh costumes, hair, and
makeup, they tend to gatheraround the actor or the actress
(25:20):
and uh really protect them.
And in your story, you nailedthat connection and that
protectiveness of crew members.
It kind of brought back a lot ofmemories for me.
I particularly enjoyed thescenes where a certain couple
would set up these liaisons onthe set where no one could see
them or where they thought noone could see them.
That was cute.
(25:40):
Anyway, I would like to talkabout a line that is on page
167.
When Callia is reflecting on herpast relationships, you write,
quote, men were ultimately adrain on one's resources, end
quote.
Now, for many people inrelationships, there is a time
when this thought rumbles intheir consciousness regarding
(26:01):
their partner.
What are your thoughts?
And did a personal experienceprompt this line?
SPEAKER_01 (26:06):
Yeah, I think okay, so where that comes from in
Callie's journey is that she umwitnessed her mother who had
some, you know, mental healthdifficulties and her sister go
through tons and tons ofrelationships, like very toxic
relationships where they gave upeverything for the men in their
lives.
And I think we all know peoplelike that.
Um, I think we as women, we areagain socialized to do that.
(26:32):
And um, Callie made a firmdecision to never do that
because she didn't want to getinto that situation.
And so that's why she doesn't,she doesn't want to fall in love
with Jory because she doesn't,she doesn't believe in love.
She doesn't believe, you know,that partnerships can work
because she's never seen apartnership work.
Um from my own personalexperience, yeah, for sure.
(26:54):
I mean, I've I've uh, you know,I separated from my husband
because of that, because it feltlike there was too much, like
there were many reasons, ofcourse, but um there was such a
uh uh imbalance of labor,emotional labor, physical labor,
child labor.
And you know, we're moving intoa time where a lot of women are
(27:17):
seeing those imbalances.
Like there's 70% of the divorcecases that are or that are filed
are from women, and it's oftenbecause they are exhausted.
It's a thing that's happening.
And I think women are are wakingup to it.
And because they don't have todepend on men economically, they
don't have to depend on them foremotional support, it's easier
(27:40):
for them to make those choicesnow.
SPEAKER_00 (27:43):
Yeah, that's true.
Now, let's talk about the themeof vulnerability: physical,
emotional, and professional.
It appears to underpin some ofyour character's conflicts.
I'm talking about Jory andCallie.
Um, what does vulnerability meanto you in your life and career?
SPEAKER_01 (28:01):
Yeah, I think this is something that's really um
important for everybody in acreative field, but in any kind
of field, is to understand thestrength in vulnerability.
Um, I think, again, we've beentaught, and men especially, that
vulnerability is a weakness,that you shouldn't show it.
You always have to be strong,you always have to be the
(28:24):
leader, you always have to likenot listen to outside ideas.
This kind of question ofautourism, especially in film,
where it's like the one voice isthe voice that carries it
through.
There, that does not exist.
There is never one voice,especially in film and TV.
There's so many voices incollaborations.
And so it was something that I'malways thinking about is like,
(28:46):
when are you allowed to bevulnerable?
When should you not bevulnerable?
Um as a woman, you're socializedto think that again,
vulnerability is something thatyou can't show in your job
because you will be denigratedor told that you're hysterical.
But I think our world, peopleare yearning for vulnerability.
(29:07):
And I think you see that onTikTok, you see it on Instagram.
When when someone's beinggenuinely vulnerable, it always
goes viral because you're like,oh my gosh, someone's being like
speaking their truth kind ofthing.
Of course, that can also runrampant on the other side, but
we won't we won't get into that.
But yeah, so vulnerability issomething that I think is is
(29:28):
very important that we all kindof look at.
SPEAKER_00 (29:31):
It kind of gets back to uh what we're talking about
earlier with young men andfeeling like they can't speak at
times.
And I think that brings backthat word vulnerability.
I wonder if perhaps young menare starting to feel this word,
this emotion of feelingvulnerable.
And it all gets back to what youwere talking about about
(29:52):
listening and trying to be moreempathetic to each other.
SPEAKER_01 (29:56):
A hundred percent.
Yeah, and I think because youknow, Mountain.
Now men are told that theyshould be re vulnerable and
they're like, Well, how the heckam I supposed to do that?
I don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (30:06):
You know?
Yeah.
And especially if you've comefrom a family where nobody
talked about relationships, thatmust be so difficult to learn
about being vulnerable and thatwhat that word really means, let
alone putting that into yourdaily uh life situations.
SPEAKER_01 (30:25):
Yeah, I think it's really hard.
I think, like, you know, justwatching my son grow up and how
limited uh boys are allowed tobe, just in the very colors that
they wear.
I remember saying, you know, Iwould always put him in pinks or
pastels because he liked them.
Um, and but also to prove, hey,you can you can all colors are
(30:47):
for everybody.
You can rock it.
You don't have to stick to blackand blue.
And so, but then you see like somany boys just in black and
blue.
And what does that mean to themif they can't have red or they
can't have purple or they can'thave different shades of green?
It's it's sort of it's hard.
SPEAKER_00 (31:07):
So yeah.
Yeah, I mean, the colors youwear are such a personal thing,
you know.
I'm I could go on about colorsand what we wear for a long
time, but you know what?
I would rather hear about yourpublishing story from your
finished manuscript to findingan agent and landing a
publishing deal.
It was long.
SPEAKER_01 (31:29):
It was really long.
Um, it was uh my my novel took along time because I was working
in the film industry and and uhI was I'm a single mom at this
point, and so it took a longtime to steal time to write it.
And I got into a thing calledPitch Wars, which was a
volunteer run but very highlyregarded.
(31:53):
Um I don't know what likementoring program.
And I I my manuscript got in anduh like it was they took, I
don't know, maybe 50 romancenovels and 4,000 people applied,
kind of thing.
And I got in very happily, got amentor, and then they gave me a
showcase after that manuscriptwas finished.
(32:15):
So uh that meant that agentswere sort of introduced to my
work.
Now I didn't get an agent fromthat showcase, but because I was
able to put pitch words on myquerying letter, people took
more notice because they knewthat it had been vetted, like
this this project had beenvetted to a certain degree.
And it took uh it took about sixor seven months for me to get an
(32:43):
agent from that time afterquerying 45 different agents.
And I thought that was crazy,but people were saying to me,
you you don't give up on thatmanuscript until about 70 or 80
queries.
That's when you decide to put itto bed and try something else.
So around 45, I got I got myagent, and it was great.
(33:05):
He was starting out, so it wasgood because we were both
starting out, and that's where alot of new writers can get
agents is agents who are, youknow, starting their own
careers.
And then he started submittingme.
Now, a year later, I wasn'tgetting anything.
Uh, but he and he decided hedidn't want to be in the
business anymore, and so hedecided to uh he to get out, but
(33:27):
would introduce me to an agentat at the at the agency, the
same agency.
And in that time where he saidhe wasn't going to be working
there anymore, he uh sold thebook.
And so he sold the book, I gotthe new agent, and then once I
signed that contract, it tookanother year and a half for a
(33:50):
bit to come out.
So it was really a long, longprocess for me.
I think because working in thefilm and TV industry, you know
that sometimes things can golike that, and sometimes, and by
that I mean really quickly, andsometimes things just take
forever.
So because I had so many thingsgoing on at the time, I didn't
(34:11):
worry about it as much as say anewbie might who might be
checking, you know, theirquerying letters every five
seconds to see who has read thebook or who is asking for an
NMS.
I I had been run through theringer already in film and TV.
So it I didn't bother me asmuch.
And that was a real godsend, ina way.
SPEAKER_00 (34:30):
Quite a few readers who I've spoken with think that,
you know, authors are making alot of money.
That is a rarity.
Let's get that clear.
Yes, there are authors who havebeen around a long time and they
uh quite often have a largebacklist.
And uh yes, they are making alot of money.
But generally speaking, most ofthe authors I know have not
given up their other job orthey're working part-time,
(34:54):
giving them time to write.
And I think this is a good thingfor um writers who are starting
out to remember.
It's not about giving up yourday job, it's about how to find
creativity through your day job.
Because it because it doesn'tstop once you have perhaps found
(35:14):
an agent and a publishing deal,because you need to have started
writing or be halfway throughyour second book.
And I know that's probablysounding easy the way I'm saying
it, and it's definitely not, butkeeping positive about writing
while you have another job makeswriting easier and being
(35:36):
creative easier.
SPEAKER_01 (35:37):
Yeah, I agree.
I agree.
You need a stability to be ableto write so that you're not
always afraid of where the nextpaycheck is coming from.
But also those day jobs can giveyou a lot of material.
A lot of material.
So I think you're right.
And yes, you do have to bewriting that second book.
(35:58):
The second my first book wasdone and I was querying, I
started my second book.
And so now, you know, LoveCamera Action came out in April.
I've got my second book onsubmission, and now I'm starting
my third book.
So you really have to be, yeah,you have to be consistent and
diligent.
Um, and assuming you like doingit.
(36:18):
I mean, people do ask me if Ilove writing, and I would say,
no, I don't.
It's it's horrible.
Horrible.
Because you're putting yourselfthrough the ringer in so many
different ways, emotionally,financially, time-wise, but I'm
compelled to do it.
I'm more miserable not doing itthan I am doing it, and that's
(36:40):
what's kind of getting methrough.
SPEAKER_00 (36:42):
I think that's a great quote.
I'll have to use that when I'mpromoting your episode.
Okay, I have a couple morequestions.
One of them is Do you believethe creative process changes the
creator?
And if so, in what ways haswriting this novel, Love Camera
Action, changed you?
Oh my god, yes.
SPEAKER_01 (37:01):
Oh my gosh, why do it if it doesn't create doesn't
change you?
Like, didn't it change you whenyou were doing with being a
costumer?
Yes, absolutely.
Each creation changes you, itmakes you listen to people more,
it makes you connect with peoplemore, it makes you connect to
yourself more, it makes youunderstand what you think is
important and what you think itisn't, and it also makes you
(37:24):
very humble.
There's some criticism aboutlove camera action that makes me
really sit down and go, Oh,okay, that's an interesting
perspective.
And you have to be thickskinned, but also listen to when
people have criticisms aboutyour work.
And it's not easy.
It is not easy, but it makesyou, I would say, I mean, not to
(37:46):
toot my own horn, but a moreinteresting person.
SPEAKER_00 (37:50):
Yes, absolutely.
One thing I will say though,there are negative reviews, uh,
so many on Amazon that reallydon't make any sense.
So I tell people, you know what,don't read any of the Amazon
reviews or the Goodreads reviewsquite often.
Uh, the ones that really matterare written by people who really
do understand writing.
(38:11):
The other thing is you have tothink of a bad review like a
bruise.
It will fade over time.
I love that.
I love that.
You can listen, like you said,take in what you feel you need
to take in to learn, but thenyou just have to let it go,
which I know sounds easy andit's incredibly hard, but that's
all we can do.
(38:31):
I find it hard to uh think thatanyone is giving you negative
reviews about love camera actionbecause honestly, it just made
me feel good.
And I need it.
We all need to feel good, right?
It's a hard world out there.
Okay, let's talk books.
What are you currently reading?
Well, I'm actually going througha sci-fi summer.
SPEAKER_01 (38:50):
Well, that sounds like fun.
So yeah, but I know it's so fun.
I don't know why.
Like sometimes I'll go through agothic summer and sometimes
other types of, but it's asci-fi summer.
So I just finished Andy Weir'sproject, Hail Mary.
It's really fun.
It's really fun.
It's, you know, very sciencey,and I am not a science person.
(39:12):
So I kind of glossed over somethings.
Like my my eyes kind of gotglassy, but it's a really fun
exploration of space and whatwould you do if you were stuck
in space and all alone anddidn't know who you were.
So it was it was a lot of fun.
That's also why I love romance.
Like, and just back to what youwere saying, romance is actually
(39:34):
meant to make you feel good.
It is meant to be an escape, itis meant to be read in a few
hours because it is uh arelease.
You know that there's gonna be ahappy ending.
So you're okay with goingthrough the trials and
tribulations of these people.
You're not scared to feel allthose things because you know
it's gonna be okay.
(39:56):
And there's a really importantplace for that kind of
literature.
Like I've gone through, I'vegone through my literary fiction
phase, and that's it's amazingpros, it's amazing um stories,
but sometimes I just get scaredbecause I I'm like, I don't know
what's gonna happen to thesepeople.
Can I handle it?
(40:16):
And with romance, you don't haveto worry about that.
You can relax, you can escape,you can laugh, you can, you
know, be sad because you knowit'll be okay at the end.
And that's what romance is kindof for.
SPEAKER_00 (40:29):
So your next books are gonna be rom-cons too?
They are rom-cons, yes.
Oh, good.
I'll look forward to readingthem.
Let me know when they're closeto being published because I
would love to have you back onthe show.
SPEAKER_01 (40:41):
Well, I would love to come back too because I want
to hear some of your stories aswell.
I'll have to be careful, or theymay end up in a book.
Yeah, some of them they can't beuh for public consumption, for
sure.
SPEAKER_00 (40:55):
Noelle, it's been great having you on the show.
I've had a lot of giggles, and Ilove your book, Love Camera
Action.
SPEAKER_01 (41:02):
Thank you so much, Mandy.
This has been a real joy.
SPEAKER_00 (41:04):
It's so fun to talk to you.
You've been listening to myconversation with Noelle Stark
about her book Love CameraAction.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media.
And remember to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to this podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
(41:26):
thebookshoppodcast.com.
And make sure to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to the show.
You can also follow me at MandyJacksonBeverly, on Instagram and
Facebook, and on YouTube at theBookshop Podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
(41:48):
the contact form at thebookshoppodcast.com.
The Bookshop Podcast is writtenand produced by me, Mandy
Jackson Beverly.
Theme music provided by BrianBeverly, and my executive
assistant and graphic designeris Adrian Ottahan.
Thanks for listening, and I'llsee you next time.
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