October 13, 2025 • 36 mins
In this episode, I chat with Paul Levine about his new novel, Midnight Burning.
A physicist, a comic genius, and a city on the brink—Paul Levine joins us to unpack Midnight Burning, a high-velocity historical thriller that brings Albert Einstein and Charlie Chaplin into the crosshairs of a real fascist movement in 1937 Los Angeles. We open with a personal note, then dive into the craft and conscience behind turning buried history into a page-turner that feels startlingly current.
Levine traces his path from Miami Herald reporter to trial lawyer to television writer, revealing how courtroom rigor and the writers’ room taught him to build lean scenes and dialogue that pop. That muscle powers a story grounded in documented realities: the German-American Bund, the Silver Legion, Nazi bookstores in L.A., a Hollywood hit list, and a citizens’ spy ring that gathered evidence without firing a shot. We talk about Georgia Ann Robinson, LAPD’s first Black female officer, and the moral compromises of studios navigating German censors like Dr. George Gyssling. Along the way, Levine explains how he balances verifiable quotes and biographies with credible invention, keeping Einstein’s dry humor and Chaplin’s political courage intact while pushing them into danger that tests their wits and resolve.
If you love smart historical thrillers, legal-sharp dialogue, or the hidden history of Los Angeles and Hollywood, you’ll find much to savor in Midnight Burning. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves page-turners with purpose, and leave a review to help others discover the show. What moment surprised you most?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson Beverly, and I'm a
bibliophile.
Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
Each week I present interviewswith authors, independent
bookshop owners and booksellersfrom around the globe, and
publishing professionals.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media.
(00:32):
And remember to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to this podcast.
You're listening to episode 310.
Okay, well, first my apologiesfor this episode coming out a
little late.
Our beloved dog of 13 yearspassed away.
And uh honestly, it's beenreally sad.
(00:55):
The house feels empty, and eventhe cats miss him.
But uh yeah, so that was hard.
I was reminded about thisbeautiful saying: wipe the tears
of grief from the loss of yourdog onto the soft fur of a new
puppy.
So at some stage soon that willhappen, uh, but we're not quite
ready yet.
In Author News this week, I willbe speaking with author Bruce
(01:17):
Holsinger about his bookCulpability in Los Angeles and
Santa Barbara.
On Saturday, October 25th, I'llbe moderating a panel called
Fates Entwined, ChangingFortunes and Futures.
It's about historical fiction.
And that's going to be at theBoston Book Festival.
And the participants on my panelwill be Princess Joy L.
(01:39):
Perry, Nalini Jones, and AllegraGoodman.
If you're in Boston and planningto go to the Boston Book Fair, I
hope to see you there.
Okay, and here's this week'sinterview.
Edgar Allan Poe, award-nominatedauthor Paul Levine, crafts
thrillers where law, history,and moral courage collide.
Whether it's linebacker-turnedlawyer Jake Lassiter roaming
(02:02):
Miami courtrooms or AlbertEinstein and Charlie Chaplin
battling fascists in Hollywood,Levine delivers suspense with
heart and bite.
Winner of the John D.
MacDonald Fiction Award andnominee for the Edgar McCafferty
International Thriller, Seamus,and James Thurber Prizes, his
novels appear in 23 languages.
(02:23):
A former trial lawyer, Levinewrote 20 episodes of the CBS
drama Jag and co-created FirstMonday, starring James Garner
and Joe Montagna.
His international bestseller toSpeak for the Dead launched the
Jake series, and Early Grave wasnamed the third best legal
thriller of the 21st century byBest Thrillers.com, just behind
(02:46):
Michael Connolly and JohnGrisham.
He also pens the criticallyacclaimed Solomon vs.
Lord legal papers.
His newest novel, MidnightBurning, opens the Einstein
Chaplin Historical Thrillers.
A member of Penn State Societyof Distinguished Alumni and a
graduate of the University ofMiami School of Law, Levine
(03:08):
lives in Santa Barbara,California.
Here's a synopsis for his latestbook, Midnight Burning.
It's 1937 and clouds of wargather over Europe and American
fascists march at home.
While the FBI chases suspectedcommunists, Nazi agents plot an
armed insurrection.
When the world's two most famousmen, Albert Einstein and Charlie
(03:30):
Chaplin, uncover the scheme,which includes the assassination
of Hollywood's biggest stars,they fight back with nothing but
their ingenuity, raw courage,and the fierce resolve of
Georgia Ann Robinson, LAPD'sfirst black female officer.
A dangerous chase takes ourheroes into the heart of
darkness, a fascist encampmentin the San Gabriel Mountains
(03:53):
north of Los Angeles, where amilitia armed with machine guns
plans its attack.
Batten the Hatches is Brainsversus Brawn in an explosive,
unforgettable finale.
Historical fiction inspired by atrue story.
Hi, Paul, and welcome to theshow.
It's great to have you here.
SPEAKER_00 (04:12):
Mandy, it's great to be here.
Most writers love talking abouttheir work because we we work in
isolation so much to have a bookcome out and have somebody
actually ask questions about it.
It's a treat.
SPEAKER_01 (04:24):
I loved your book, Midnight Burning.
It was a lot of fun.
Being Australian and beingraised in Australia, I had a
little understanding of thestrength of the Nazi Party in
New York, but I did not knowabout the strength of it in Los
Angeles during the late 30s.
Reading Midnight Burning took medown rabbit holes of history
(04:47):
from fascism to baseball.
My husband is an avid Dodgersfan, and also he enjoys reading
about the history of baseball.
So while I was reading the book,I was also asking him questions.
For example, was there aWrigley's field in LA during
this time?
Did these two teams playtogether?
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
Right.
Well, we do have a minor leaguebaseball game, and people may
think that I made a mistake.
It's the Los Angeles Angelsversus the San Diego Padres, but
that that was the name.
SPEAKER_01 (05:21):
And it's information like that that excites me
because it has me askingquestions, which also makes me
want to read more of your books.
So that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (05:29):
Thank you.
Yes, uh, we all have backlists,and new books sometimes do that.
Uh new readers say, Oh, whatelse has he or she written?
SPEAKER_01 (05:39):
I am a big backlist reader, and I also love to
reread books.
Every time I reread a book, Ifind something different in it.
Uh, but I'm always amazed at theamount of people that aren't
rereaders.
SPEAKER_00 (05:52):
I I do that and have done that for years with John D.
McDonald, one of the greatFlorida writers, whose writing
and whose Travis McGee characterinfluenced me in writing Jake
Lassiter, a Florida characterwho bears some resemblance to
Travis McGee.
SPEAKER_01 (06:10):
Ah, interesting.
Well, I have a lot of questions,so let's get started.
I'd love you to walk us throughthe journey from newspaper
reporter to trial lawyer tonovelist.
And I wondered if there werepivotal moments that nudge you
towards fiction, or was it moreof an organic evolution?
SPEAKER_00 (06:30):
Um I was a criminal court reporter for the Miami
Herald.
That was my first job a week outof Penn State University, where
I edited the student newspaper.
And they threw me into criminalcourt when somebody else left.
I knew nothing about it.
I'd never been in a courthouse.
I was 21 years old.
So I was learning on the flyfrom the prosecutors, the
(06:52):
defense lawyers, became friendlywith the state attorneys, the
public defenders, and watched anumber of trials, hundreds of
trials.
And something stirred in me thatI wanted to do what they were
doing as opposed to watchingthem do what they were doing.
And something I didn't realize,maybe many people go to law
(07:13):
school, don't realize it tillthey're out.
I'm seeing the final productthere in the courtroom.
I wasn't seeing all the hardwork, the research, the
preparation that went intogetting ready for trial.
But I went to law school, Ipracticed for 17 years, and at
some point, call it a midlifecrisis, call it a profession
(07:34):
crisis, whatever, whatever youwish.
I became disenchanted with thepractice of law.
And I started imagining thischaracter who I've referred to,
Jake Lassener, who was kind of anight school lawyer.
He was not as smart as me, buthe was a lot physically tougher.
He was an ex pro football playerwho went to night law school,
(07:58):
graduated, and proudly graduatedin the top half of the bottom
third of his night school class.
And I just thought I could havesome fun poking fun at what he
calls the so-called justicesystem, a fellow who says, I
always presume my clients areguilty, it saves time.
(08:20):
And it was, it was either thator going to therapy.
And that's what led me intowriting fiction with a series of
legal thrillers, um, none ofwhich bear any relationship
other than learning how to writeto midnight burning the new
book.
SPEAKER_01 (08:36):
Yeah, I have a son who is a lawyer, and he was
always an avid reader as a childand teenager.
But when he got out of lawschool, he I asked him, you
know, are you still readingfiction?
What are you reading?
He said, Mom, I am so exhausted.
I've done so much reading.
It's going to take me a while toget back into reading for fun
again.
(08:56):
And I found that so sad.
SPEAKER_00 (08:59):
And I think it's not just lawyers, but uh whatever
profession you're in uhrequires, even while you're out
practicing it, um so muchattention to that profession,
keeping up with new trends, allof that, continuing education.
And you add the internet to thatand social media, and yes, we've
(09:21):
seen a precipitous drop-off inum in reading.
Interestingly, this would be acompletely different topic.
Women are better readers thanmen these days, particularly of
fiction.
SPEAKER_01 (09:33):
I wonder if it's because we women love to escape.
I'm not too sure.
Um, but anyway, let's get backto you.
How did your training injournalism and the courtroom
shape your voice as astoryteller?
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
Well, I kind of think that storytellers are
born, but then you learn how totell the story.
Uh, we're still using thethree-act structure that
Aristotle handed down.
And when I wrote in television,we were wrote in a three-act
structure, even though withcommercials on network
television, it was called fouracts because of where the
(10:09):
commercials were.
And um, journalism taught me toget facts right, but then my
imagination started with thosefacts and then learned about
structure and was able to dostories with a beginning, a
middle, and hopefully asatisfying end.
SPEAKER_01 (10:27):
Now you just brought up television.
So when you transitioned intoTV, what aspects of the process
surprised you most?
Whether it was the collaborativenature of the writer's room, the
pace of production, or theconstraints of the medium?
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
All of that.
And as you're suggesting, uh thecollegial nature, a writer's
room, depending on the show andwhether it's a drama or comedy
and how the showrunner runs it,might have six or seven or eight
writers in it.
Now, I worked on JAG on CBS, andthere we were much more
(11:03):
independent than on many othershows.
Uh, we would pitch our storyideas to the showrunner, Don
Belisario, who created the show.
He'd give it a go, and you'd gooff and you and you'd write, and
you might hand it to the otherwriters or use them as sounding
boards as as you go along.
(11:23):
There's also, and you use theword constraints, you're working
on deadlines that the novelist,the the novelist deadline is in
his or her own mind.
You want to get this thing doneand off to your agent and then
off to the editor and in thepublication process.
But if you're working,particularly in network
(11:44):
television, as opposed to nowthe streaming, you're on really
tight deadlines.
You you can't say, oh, I needanother week for this because
they're going to shoot this aweek later.
Um, it was it was a uh aninteresting experience, but it
also helped my writing, Mandy,and I'll tell you why.
It improved my dialogue, itshortened it, it sharpened it,
(12:07):
because you don't have time towaste in television.
So I'm thankful for thoseexperiences.
SPEAKER_01 (12:13):
And of course, then when you get on set and you're
watching your dialogue andeverything come alive, is when
you actually see the importanceof the pause between actors and
the action going on while yourdialogue is or isn't being
spoken.
I think it's so helpful watchingthat.
Did you find that?
SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
Well, when I'm writing a novel, I see the scene
as if it's being shot so that uhI write short chapters.
Each one's basically a scene.
Um have a beginning, a middle,and end, hopefully, some
conflict if you're writing adrama, a dramatic thriller.
(12:56):
Um and therefore, maybe thatmade it easier for me when I
went into television, becausecertainly when you're writing a
script for television or featurefilms, you better be imagining
what it looks like.
And is this dialogue realistic?
Are we moving the plot along?
Are we balancing the amount ofcharacter development with plot
(13:19):
development?
The the two skills, whiledifferent, fiction writing and
writing for the screen, have alot of similarities.
SPEAKER_01 (13:26):
Let's talk about Midnight Burning.
What first sparked your interestin telling this story through
the lens of Einstein andChaplin?
And were you drawn to them fortheir iconic cultural stature,
their roles as outsiders, ortheir unique relationship to
politics and art?
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
Well, sometimes I'm unable to answer that question.
This time there's a really,really clear answer, and it goes
back 15 years or more.
I came across a photograph ofCharlie Chaplin and Albert
Einstein in tuxedos walkingtogether into a movie theater.
And I was like, what is this?
(14:06):
Arguably, and this was 1931, andthey're going in to see the
premiere of Chaplin's greatfilm, City Lights.
Arguably, they're the two mostfamous men in the world at that
time.
And they're going to the movies.
Well, yes.
Chaplin invited Einstein to goto the premiere.
They became friends.
(14:26):
So I researched that and Ifound, wouldn't it be fun?
I was later to learn there was alot more work in the fun.
Wouldn't it be fun to write abook, a novel, a buddy picture,
call it, with Charlie Chaplinand Albert Einstein.
But I had no story.
And it was years later when Ilearned about this startling
(14:52):
fascist movement in the UnitedStates, and particularly Los
Angeles, in the 1930s and therun-up to World War II,
forgotten mostly, because WorldWar II sort of erased the
memories of the 1930s.
And I learned that CharlieChaplin was on a hit list, that
is a list of Hollywoodcelebrities to be assassinated
(15:14):
by a fascist group in LosAngeles.
And the FBI with Jandar Hooverwas there for quite a long time,
uh, was chasing communists.
They didn't care.
The LAPD was basically corruptfrom its police chief, Ed Tugun
Davis.
And I thought, well, now it'scredible that these two friends
(15:34):
can use their own unique skillsthat no one else in the world
has to fight this fascist groupin Los Angeles.
SPEAKER_01 (15:42):
And how did you balance fact with invention when
placing such recognizablefigures in a fictional
narrative?
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
Well, fortunately for me, the main characters in
the book, Chafflin, Einstein, uhCharles Lindbergh, who is
somewhat of a villain because hewas in real life, uh, their
lives were so documented,excellent biographies of each of
them.
And it was so easy to findthings they really said.
(16:13):
So I tried to use as much actualdialogue documented what these
characters said, but shape itinto my story.
Now, beyond that, this isfiction, it's a fictional story.
My my rule of thumb is itdoesn't have to be 100% real,
but it has to be credible.
(16:35):
You don't want to get a lettersaying Albert Einstein would not
have said that.
Well, and if somebody writesthat email to me, I can say,
well, actually he did say that.
You know.
But but there has to be somepoetic license, and you have to
know so much about thesecharacters that you know how far
(16:55):
you can take it.
Einstein had a great sense ofhumor, just a great sense of
humor.
So when I do a scene whereCharlie Chaplin takes him to his
first baseball game, even thoughI'm moving the plot along
because there's a fascist uhphotographer there documenting
what they're doing, I have a lotof fun in the baseball game
(17:16):
because Einstein, who can tellyou the physics of a curveball,
what makes a curveball curve,and we can have some fun while
we're in the in the bleacherswith them.
SPEAKER_01 (17:28):
I thoroughly enjoyed that baseball scene.
It was really fun.
Uh now, your research revealedstartling truths about Los
Angeles' role in the Nazimovement.
Can you talk about one or twodiscoveries that truly shocked
you and perhaps even shifted thedirection of your story?
SPEAKER_00 (17:47):
The first discovery was that there was a fascist
movement, not just in LosAngeles, but across the country
in the 1930s.
And as Hitler came to power in1933 and then consolidated power
between 33 and 39, there werethese, I'm gonna call them fan
clubs in the United States.
(18:08):
It's not a really gooddescription, but the
German-American Bund, the SilverLegion of America, these were
groups that wanted to emulatewhat was going on in Germany,
and some of them to do it byviolent means of an insurrection
and take over the government.
(18:28):
You know, the thepre-publication reviews are
saying basically this isunfortunately timely.
And I do think that no matterwhat your political slant might
be, we I think we could allagree that authoritarianism is
probably not a good idea.
And that our democracy hasalways been based on a certain
(18:51):
amount of self-restraint by theexecutive branch, that there are
norms that shouldn't beviolated.
And it's interesting becauseright in the middle of the
decade, 1935, switching back andforth from now to then, uh
Sinclair Lewis wrote a book, ItCan't Happen Here.
Well, it was an ironic titlebecause it did happen here in
(19:15):
his novel, where a populistbecame president and began
abolishing Congress and takingpower and becoming an
authoritarian.
And actually, things going onthat we would just say, this is
crazy, the Madison Square Gardenuh Nazi rally with 20,000 people
uh saluting Hitler in in NewYork, uh, Hitler youth summer
(19:38):
camps across the country.
And again, it's like this isalmost a forgotten piece of
history, but it all fit into uhMidnight Burning, where Albert
Einstein and Charlie Chaplin,and assisted by another real
character, I don't want to leaveher out, Sergeant Georgia Ann
Robinson, the first black femaleon the Los Angeles Police
(20:03):
Department.
Now she was real, but of courseI'm putting her in this
fictional situation.
And there are threetrail-blazing, almost outsiders.
Einstein born in Germany, uhChaplin, uh born in uh London
and never became a citizen,Georgian Robinson, the first
black female cop.
Um and that's how that all fittogether for me.
SPEAKER_01 (20:27):
Paul, you've touched a little bit about what Los
Angeles was like in 1938-39, butcan you paint a little more
in-depth picture of Los Angelesin those years socially,
politically, and culturally?
How did the city's openness, itsport and its entertainment
industry, make it bothvulnerable to infiltration and
(20:48):
also uniquely positioned forresistance?
Of course, I had to go downanother rabbit hole and learn
all about this openness of theport of Los Angeles.
I found that fascinating andterrifying.
SPEAKER_00 (21:00):
Well, it was bustling and it was growing.
And the Hollywood entertainmentindustry, which would have been
movies at the time beforetelevision, was a powerful
cultural force.
And of course, the studio headswere overwhelmingly Jewish, and
that made them targets.
(21:22):
LA also had a very largepopulation of uh now German
Americans, but Germans who hademigrated, many of whom had
served in World War I forGermany, fighting uh the Allied
powers.
So it was sort of a naturalplace for a hotbed of at first
(21:47):
sort of German friendship, youcould call it.
And there obviously the largeGerman American population, 90
some percent would have had nointerest whatsoever in
overthrowing the US government.
But there was uh this fellownamed William Dudley Pelley, who
was the head of the SilverLegion of America, who called
himself the American Hitler, ranfor president in 1936, um, only
(22:13):
got a few votes, but he preachedviolent insurrection to people
who were willing to listen tothis sort of thing.
And they plotted knocking overarmories and stealing machine
guns.
They had some sympathizers inthe U.S.
Army, not a lot, but it doesn'ttake a lot to start uh a revolt
(22:34):
or or an insurrection.
Um, other than that, uh, what Ireally what I like about Los
Angeles in the 1930s was the uhthe trolley car system, the red
cars, the electric uh uh theelectric trolley cars on the
streets.
You mentioned the port, thegrowing port of Los Angeles uh
(22:56):
was booming with internationaltrade.
It um the nightclubs on theSunset Strip were were going
strong.
We had some wonderful, colorfulAmerican gangsters from New York
coming out, Bugsy Siegel, MickeyCohen, who was from Los Angeles.
It was a wild and crazy place.
SPEAKER_01 (23:16):
And of course, there was a lot of racism too during
that time.
Uh I think the story that youhave within the book, within the
story of the young blackreporter, is disturbing and
heartbreaking.
SPEAKER_00 (23:29):
Yes, the the Los Angeles Sentinel was and is a
real newspaper.
It's it's a uh anAfrican-American newspaper that
covered in the 1930s and stilldoes today the black community
of Los Angeles and is a veryimportant cultural force.
(23:50):
And uh one of the characters uhin Midnight Burning is a young
reporter who gets a lead on thisinsurrection plot and is utterly
fearless, perhaps uh toofearless in tracking down the
leads, which take him to the uhthe Nazi consulate in uh Los
(24:11):
Angeles.
Oh, the other thing, and Ishould have said this by your
prior question, there really wasa plan, I referred to it in
dialogue, to have a Westernoffice home for Adolf Hitler.
Um for those who thought thatGermany would win the Second
(24:36):
World War, and that Germanywould occupy the United States
either by friendship, which someof the Lindbergh followers
wanted, or by force.
So they were looking for placeswhere Adolf Hitler might be able
to have fun in the PacificPalisades or wherever.
SPEAKER_01 (24:56):
Oh my.
SPEAKER_00 (24:57):
I know it's it sounds crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (24:59):
Let's talk about Steve Ross's book, Hitler in Los
Angeles.
He said of the resistance,quote, they stopped this without
ever firing a gun, without everusing a weapon.
They used the most powerfulweapon of all, their brains.
End quote.
How did this principle shape theway you portrayed your
(25:19):
character's choices in MidnightBurning?
SPEAKER_00 (25:22):
Yes, that's uh Professor Stephen Ross uh at
USC, and he wrote a book calledHitler in Los Angeles, which
again, when it hit people, whatwhat what is it?
And that's nonfiction, I shouldsay.
And what he was talking aboutwas almost a citizens committee,
uh citizens undercover operationstarted by a lawyer named Leon
(25:47):
Lewis, who uh plays a large rolein that book, who was a World
War I veteran, American, uh oneof the founders of the
Anti-Defamation League.
And when he saw what was goingon at these German American
friendship clubs uh atDeutschhaus downtown, and the
Nazi bookstores, that there werethree or four uh that were
(26:11):
peddling uh hate information inLos Angeles and in the valley,
he recruited a number of WorldWar I veterans, most of whom
were not Jewish, because theyhad to infiltrate these groups.
And they successfully did it.
And that's, I believe, what uhProfessor Ross is talking about
when they did it without guns.
(26:32):
So they were eventually able togather the evidence that the FBI
wouldn't go after and present itto um, I want to say Navy
intelligence, army intelligence,and go at them that way and
finally get the FBI involved.
SPEAKER_01 (26:47):
There was such a lot of planning involved because of
course the Nazis also had theirspies everywhere.
And this brings me to my nextquestion.
Do you see parallels between theresistance of the 1930s and 40s
and today's forms of resistance,whether through art, intellect,
or activism?
SPEAKER_00 (27:07):
Well, I think that in any generation we need to be
aware that democracy is not agiven.
The democracy is because we'vehad uh our countries from 1776
or whatever, uh that doesn'tmean that we will always have a
democracy.
And that the struggle betweentyranny and democracy is is
(27:31):
ongoing.
So at the very least, let's bealert to any inroads that would
fracture what we have enjoyedand almost enjoyed without
thinking about for so long.
So, yes, I I do see parallels.
SPEAKER_01 (27:49):
Yeah, I do too.
Um, there was one figure in thebook who I would like to talk
about because he had such aninteresting arc, and that is Dr.
George Gisling.
SPEAKER_00 (28:00):
Uh uh yes, George Gisling was the Nazi console in
Los Angeles, real character.
And as I uh portray him in thebook, one of his main jobs was
to get the scripts from theHollywood studios and censor
them with a red pen.
If the Hollywood studios wantedto show their films in Germany,
(28:24):
they had to pass his muster.
Germany was a huge foreignmarket in the 1930s.
And I I'm saddened to say thatthe uh executives, the moguls,
many of whom were Jewish, justrolled over and said, Okay,
we'll take out this reference inum the movie Three Comrades, uh,
(28:47):
that has a positive Jewishcharacter, and it will just take
him out of the script.
And this went on for years.
Chaplin did not submit hisscripts to the Germans, and uh
certainly when he made the GreatDictator in 1940, uh a brilliant
film, uh mocking Hitler andMussolini, uh he uh he did not
(29:10):
submit that uh for censoring.
But Giesling is a very, verycomplicated character.
He was not a diehard Nazi, hewas a bureaucrat.
And it came out after the war.
Not relevant to the events in mybook, but this is true, and it's
(29:30):
probably why I I made him dosome things that a diehard Nazi
wouldn't do, helping Chaplin andEinstein and something.
Uh he was passing along Germanmilitary information to an
American uh businessman inChicago who passed it on to the
War Department.
(29:51):
And that actually saved Eislingfrom being prosecuted after the
war.
And he lived a long and happylife, I presume.
In Spain.
SPEAKER_01 (30:01):
And were there particular challenges in
rendering Summon as welldocumented as Chaplin and
Einstein in a way that stillfelt fresh and human?
SPEAKER_00 (30:10):
Well, that's the double-edged sword of there's so
much written about them that iton the one hand, that's really
helpful to get things accurate.
On the other hand, it it it doespose a challenge because you
don't want to get things wrong.
(30:30):
And by its very nature, you'recreating fiction.
You're creating a fictionalstory with real people.
And I haven't done that before.
That's that's sort of uh this ismy first novel of historical
fiction.
I've always written legalthrillers.
Midnight Burning was a new stepfor me.
(30:51):
But if you read uh really,really experienced and good
historical novelists, uh, takeKristen Hanna and the
Nightingale, one of the mostpopular books of the last 25
years.
Um, she took a real person, aFrench resistance fighter, a
woman, who would lead Alliedpilots who've been shot down
(31:14):
over France and lead them overthe mountains to safety in uh, I
want to say Spain.
I hope I'm right about that.
Get them out of occupied France,at any rate.
And you have a certain amount ofleeway, but you also are bound
by some of what really happened.
SPEAKER_01 (31:32):
Yes, it's a sensitive fine line for sure.
I love reading historicalfiction, but it always needs to
be grounded in truth for me,because trust me, I'm one of
those people that will go backand uh fact check.
I know it's crazy.
But having said that, I enjoyreading historical fiction with
a little magical realism too.
(31:53):
Speaking of which, uh during the80s and nine early 90s, when I
was in film, we shot a lot atthe Charlie Chaplin stages.
And I gotta say, the last time Idrove uh up La Brea, I could
have been anywhere.
I did not recognize the stagesat all, which I guess are now
the uh Jim Henson Muppet stages,right?
(32:14):
I loved shooting at that stage.
They just had great areas forhair makeup and wardrobe, I
remember that.
But there was a feeling there,uh something unusual.
Did you ever shoot anythingthere?
SPEAKER_00 (32:28):
No, we shot at Sunset Gower, we shot on the
Paramount lot, we shot out in umout in the valley, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:37):
Yeah, I think depending on what department you
were in on the film crew, therewere definitely stages that you
preferred over others, Paul.
Ultimately, what do you hopereaders carry with them after
reading Midnight Burning abouthistory, about resistance, and
about the role of storytellingitself?
SPEAKER_00 (32:54):
I always want to entertain.
So I hope that at the end ofevery chapter, people will say,
I'm gonna pick up a book.
In author's school, they sayalways hold up the book.
There is no author's school, butthere should be.
But no, I I just one morechapter.
(33:16):
You write short chapters.
Let me read the next.
You get to the next one.
Now it's two in the morning.
The person is is still readingit.
So suspense, entertainment.
And I don't like to hit peopleover the head with theme.
I want people to gather thetheme.
One of the early moguls' uh mostfamous quotes was if you want to
(33:39):
send a message, call WesternUnion.
These days most people won'tknow what Western Union is.
Uh, but I do want to send amessage, and I do think, and
you've hit on it, Mandy, thatthat the parallels between the
1930s and today should be takenseriously, and that we should
always be on the lookout forthreats to democracy and our
(34:04):
traditions, our traditions ofrespect, of both one branch of
the government for the other andone branch of people for the
other.
We should be one people.
Um and in real life, Einsteinand Chaplin were both committed
to social justice.
Einstein founded theInternational Rescue Commission,
(34:26):
which helped people get out ofuh Nazi-occupied countries.
Uh, Chaplin made the greatdictator, which lives today, is
a great political statement.
Um, so without hitting peopleover the head, that that's what
I'd like them to gather.
SPEAKER_01 (34:42):
And you're writing a series of these books with
Einstein and Chaplin, right?
SPEAKER_00 (34:47):
Uh yes, this is the first of a series, and the
second one is almost done.
SPEAKER_01 (34:52):
Well, Paul, I'm looking forward to the next book
because I really enjoyed readingMidnight Burning.
And thank you for taking timeout of your day to have this
conversation with me.
Uh, it's been a lot of fun, andI really enjoy chatting with
you.
SPEAKER_00 (35:06):
Thank you, Mandy.
This has been fun.
You know, I made reference toJohn D.
McDonald earlier.
He got a fan letter, and hewrites back, thank you for your
note.
Writing is like droppingfeathers down a well.
Any echo is appreciated.
So thank you for the echo.
SPEAKER_01 (35:28):
You are so welcome, Paul.
You've been listening to myconversation with Paul Levine
about his new novel, MidnightBurning.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media.
And remember to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to this podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
(35:51):
thebookshoppodcast.com.
And make sure to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to the show.
You can also follow me at MandyJackson Beverly, on Instagram
and Facebook, and on YouTube atThe Bookshop Podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
(36:13):
the contact form at thebookshoppodcast.com.
The Bookshop Podcast is writtenand produced by me, Mandy
Jackson Beverly.
Theme music provided by BrianBeverly, and thanks to Kaylee
Dishinger for keeping meorganized.
I'll see you next time.
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson Beverly, and I'm a
bibliophile.
Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
Each week I present interviewswith authors, independent
bookshop owners and booksellersfrom around the globe, and
publishing professionals.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media.
(00:32):
And remember to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to this podcast.
You're listening to episode 310.
Okay, well, first my apologiesfor this episode coming out a
little late.
Our beloved dog of 13 yearspassed away.
And uh honestly, it's beenreally sad.
(00:55):
The house feels empty, and eventhe cats miss him.
But uh yeah, so that was hard.
I was reminded about thisbeautiful saying: wipe the tears
of grief from the loss of yourdog onto the soft fur of a new
puppy.
So at some stage soon that willhappen, uh, but we're not quite
ready yet.
In Author News this week, I willbe speaking with author Bruce
(01:17):
Holsinger about his bookCulpability in Los Angeles and
Santa Barbara.
On Saturday, October 25th, I'llbe moderating a panel called
Fates Entwined, ChangingFortunes and Futures.
It's about historical fiction.
And that's going to be at theBoston Book Festival.
And the participants on my panelwill be Princess Joy L.
(01:39):
Perry, Nalini Jones, and AllegraGoodman.
If you're in Boston and planningto go to the Boston Book Fair, I
hope to see you there.
Okay, and here's this week'sinterview.
Edgar Allan Poe, award-nominatedauthor Paul Levine, crafts
thrillers where law, history,and moral courage collide.
Whether it's linebacker-turnedlawyer Jake Lassiter roaming
(02:02):
Miami courtrooms or AlbertEinstein and Charlie Chaplin
battling fascists in Hollywood,Levine delivers suspense with
heart and bite.
Winner of the John D.
MacDonald Fiction Award andnominee for the Edgar McCafferty
International Thriller, Seamus,and James Thurber Prizes, his
novels appear in 23 languages.
(02:23):
A former trial lawyer, Levinewrote 20 episodes of the CBS
drama Jag and co-created FirstMonday, starring James Garner
and Joe Montagna.
His international bestseller toSpeak for the Dead launched the
Jake series, and Early Grave wasnamed the third best legal
thriller of the 21st century byBest Thrillers.com, just behind
(02:46):
Michael Connolly and JohnGrisham.
He also pens the criticallyacclaimed Solomon vs.
Lord legal papers.
His newest novel, MidnightBurning, opens the Einstein
Chaplin Historical Thrillers.
A member of Penn State Societyof Distinguished Alumni and a
graduate of the University ofMiami School of Law, Levine
(03:08):
lives in Santa Barbara,California.
Here's a synopsis for his latestbook, Midnight Burning.
It's 1937 and clouds of wargather over Europe and American
fascists march at home.
While the FBI chases suspectedcommunists, Nazi agents plot an
armed insurrection.
When the world's two most famousmen, Albert Einstein and Charlie
(03:30):
Chaplin, uncover the scheme,which includes the assassination
of Hollywood's biggest stars,they fight back with nothing but
their ingenuity, raw courage,and the fierce resolve of
Georgia Ann Robinson, LAPD'sfirst black female officer.
A dangerous chase takes ourheroes into the heart of
darkness, a fascist encampmentin the San Gabriel Mountains
(03:53):
north of Los Angeles, where amilitia armed with machine guns
plans its attack.
Batten the Hatches is Brainsversus Brawn in an explosive,
unforgettable finale.
Historical fiction inspired by atrue story.
Hi, Paul, and welcome to theshow.
It's great to have you here.
SPEAKER_00 (04:12):
Mandy, it's great to be here.
Most writers love talking abouttheir work because we we work in
isolation so much to have a bookcome out and have somebody
actually ask questions about it.
It's a treat.
SPEAKER_01 (04:24):
I loved your book, Midnight Burning.
It was a lot of fun.
Being Australian and beingraised in Australia, I had a
little understanding of thestrength of the Nazi Party in
New York, but I did not knowabout the strength of it in Los
Angeles during the late 30s.
Reading Midnight Burning took medown rabbit holes of history
(04:47):
from fascism to baseball.
My husband is an avid Dodgersfan, and also he enjoys reading
about the history of baseball.
So while I was reading the book,I was also asking him questions.
For example, was there aWrigley's field in LA during
this time?
Did these two teams playtogether?
SPEAKER_00 (05:09):
Right.
Well, we do have a minor leaguebaseball game, and people may
think that I made a mistake.
It's the Los Angeles Angelsversus the San Diego Padres, but
that that was the name.
SPEAKER_01 (05:21):
And it's information like that that excites me
because it has me askingquestions, which also makes me
want to read more of your books.
So that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_00 (05:29):
Thank you.
Yes, uh, we all have backlists,and new books sometimes do that.
Uh new readers say, Oh, whatelse has he or she written?
SPEAKER_01 (05:39):
I am a big backlist reader, and I also love to
reread books.
Every time I reread a book, Ifind something different in it.
Uh, but I'm always amazed at theamount of people that aren't
rereaders.
SPEAKER_00 (05:52):
I I do that and have done that for years with John D.
McDonald, one of the greatFlorida writers, whose writing
and whose Travis McGee characterinfluenced me in writing Jake
Lassiter, a Florida characterwho bears some resemblance to
Travis McGee.
SPEAKER_01 (06:10):
Ah, interesting.
Well, I have a lot of questions,so let's get started.
I'd love you to walk us throughthe journey from newspaper
reporter to trial lawyer tonovelist.
And I wondered if there werepivotal moments that nudge you
towards fiction, or was it moreof an organic evolution?
SPEAKER_00 (06:30):
Um I was a criminal court reporter for the Miami
Herald.
That was my first job a week outof Penn State University, where
I edited the student newspaper.
And they threw me into criminalcourt when somebody else left.
I knew nothing about it.
I'd never been in a courthouse.
I was 21 years old.
So I was learning on the flyfrom the prosecutors, the
(06:52):
defense lawyers, became friendlywith the state attorneys, the
public defenders, and watched anumber of trials, hundreds of
trials.
And something stirred in me thatI wanted to do what they were
doing as opposed to watchingthem do what they were doing.
And something I didn't realize,maybe many people go to law
(07:13):
school, don't realize it tillthey're out.
I'm seeing the final productthere in the courtroom.
I wasn't seeing all the hardwork, the research, the
preparation that went intogetting ready for trial.
But I went to law school, Ipracticed for 17 years, and at
some point, call it a midlifecrisis, call it a profession
(07:34):
crisis, whatever, whatever youwish.
I became disenchanted with thepractice of law.
And I started imagining thischaracter who I've referred to,
Jake Lassener, who was kind of anight school lawyer.
He was not as smart as me, buthe was a lot physically tougher.
He was an ex pro football playerwho went to night law school,
(07:58):
graduated, and proudly graduatedin the top half of the bottom
third of his night school class.
And I just thought I could havesome fun poking fun at what he
calls the so-called justicesystem, a fellow who says, I
always presume my clients areguilty, it saves time.
(08:20):
And it was, it was either thator going to therapy.
And that's what led me intowriting fiction with a series of
legal thrillers, um, none ofwhich bear any relationship
other than learning how to writeto midnight burning the new
book.
SPEAKER_01 (08:36):
Yeah, I have a son who is a lawyer, and he was
always an avid reader as a childand teenager.
But when he got out of lawschool, he I asked him, you
know, are you still readingfiction?
What are you reading?
He said, Mom, I am so exhausted.
I've done so much reading.
It's going to take me a while toget back into reading for fun
again.
(08:56):
And I found that so sad.
SPEAKER_00 (08:59):
And I think it's not just lawyers, but uh whatever
profession you're in uhrequires, even while you're out
practicing it, um so muchattention to that profession,
keeping up with new trends, allof that, continuing education.
And you add the internet to thatand social media, and yes, we've
(09:21):
seen a precipitous drop-off inum in reading.
Interestingly, this would be acompletely different topic.
Women are better readers thanmen these days, particularly of
fiction.
SPEAKER_01 (09:33):
I wonder if it's because we women love to escape.
I'm not too sure.
Um, but anyway, let's get backto you.
How did your training injournalism and the courtroom
shape your voice as astoryteller?
SPEAKER_00 (09:46):
Well, I kind of think that storytellers are
born, but then you learn how totell the story.
Uh, we're still using thethree-act structure that
Aristotle handed down.
And when I wrote in television,we were wrote in a three-act
structure, even though withcommercials on network
television, it was called fouracts because of where the
(10:09):
commercials were.
And um, journalism taught me toget facts right, but then my
imagination started with thosefacts and then learned about
structure and was able to dostories with a beginning, a
middle, and hopefully asatisfying end.
SPEAKER_01 (10:27):
Now you just brought up television.
So when you transitioned intoTV, what aspects of the process
surprised you most?
Whether it was the collaborativenature of the writer's room, the
pace of production, or theconstraints of the medium?
SPEAKER_00 (10:40):
All of that.
And as you're suggesting, uh thecollegial nature, a writer's
room, depending on the show andwhether it's a drama or comedy
and how the showrunner runs it,might have six or seven or eight
writers in it.
Now, I worked on JAG on CBS, andthere we were much more
(11:03):
independent than on many othershows.
Uh, we would pitch our storyideas to the showrunner, Don
Belisario, who created the show.
He'd give it a go, and you'd gooff and you and you'd write, and
you might hand it to the otherwriters or use them as sounding
boards as as you go along.
(11:23):
There's also, and you use theword constraints, you're working
on deadlines that the novelist,the the novelist deadline is in
his or her own mind.
You want to get this thing doneand off to your agent and then
off to the editor and in thepublication process.
But if you're working,particularly in network
(11:44):
television, as opposed to nowthe streaming, you're on really
tight deadlines.
You you can't say, oh, I needanother week for this because
they're going to shoot this aweek later.
Um, it was it was a uh aninteresting experience, but it
also helped my writing, Mandy,and I'll tell you why.
It improved my dialogue, itshortened it, it sharpened it,
(12:07):
because you don't have time towaste in television.
So I'm thankful for thoseexperiences.
SPEAKER_01 (12:13):
And of course, then when you get on set and you're
watching your dialogue andeverything come alive, is when
you actually see the importanceof the pause between actors and
the action going on while yourdialogue is or isn't being
spoken.
I think it's so helpful watchingthat.
Did you find that?
SPEAKER_00 (12:33):
Well, when I'm writing a novel, I see the scene
as if it's being shot so that uhI write short chapters.
Each one's basically a scene.
Um have a beginning, a middle,and end, hopefully, some
conflict if you're writing adrama, a dramatic thriller.
(12:56):
Um and therefore, maybe thatmade it easier for me when I
went into television, becausecertainly when you're writing a
script for television or featurefilms, you better be imagining
what it looks like.
And is this dialogue realistic?
Are we moving the plot along?
Are we balancing the amount ofcharacter development with plot
(13:19):
development?
The the two skills, whiledifferent, fiction writing and
writing for the screen, have alot of similarities.
SPEAKER_01 (13:26):
Let's talk about Midnight Burning.
What first sparked your interestin telling this story through
the lens of Einstein andChaplin?
And were you drawn to them fortheir iconic cultural stature,
their roles as outsiders, ortheir unique relationship to
politics and art?
SPEAKER_00 (13:44):
Well, sometimes I'm unable to answer that question.
This time there's a really,really clear answer, and it goes
back 15 years or more.
I came across a photograph ofCharlie Chaplin and Albert
Einstein in tuxedos walkingtogether into a movie theater.
And I was like, what is this?
(14:06):
Arguably, and this was 1931, andthey're going in to see the
premiere of Chaplin's greatfilm, City Lights.
Arguably, they're the two mostfamous men in the world at that
time.
And they're going to the movies.
Well, yes.
Chaplin invited Einstein to goto the premiere.
They became friends.
(14:26):
So I researched that and Ifound, wouldn't it be fun?
I was later to learn there was alot more work in the fun.
Wouldn't it be fun to write abook, a novel, a buddy picture,
call it, with Charlie Chaplinand Albert Einstein.
But I had no story.
And it was years later when Ilearned about this startling
(14:52):
fascist movement in the UnitedStates, and particularly Los
Angeles, in the 1930s and therun-up to World War II,
forgotten mostly, because WorldWar II sort of erased the
memories of the 1930s.
And I learned that CharlieChaplin was on a hit list, that
is a list of Hollywoodcelebrities to be assassinated
(15:14):
by a fascist group in LosAngeles.
And the FBI with Jandar Hooverwas there for quite a long time,
uh, was chasing communists.
They didn't care.
The LAPD was basically corruptfrom its police chief, Ed Tugun
Davis.
And I thought, well, now it'scredible that these two friends
(15:34):
can use their own unique skillsthat no one else in the world
has to fight this fascist groupin Los Angeles.
SPEAKER_01 (15:42):
And how did you balance fact with invention when
placing such recognizablefigures in a fictional
narrative?
SPEAKER_00 (15:49):
Well, fortunately for me, the main characters in
the book, Chafflin, Einstein, uhCharles Lindbergh, who is
somewhat of a villain because hewas in real life, uh, their
lives were so documented,excellent biographies of each of
them.
And it was so easy to findthings they really said.
(16:13):
So I tried to use as much actualdialogue documented what these
characters said, but shape itinto my story.
Now, beyond that, this isfiction, it's a fictional story.
My my rule of thumb is itdoesn't have to be 100% real,
but it has to be credible.
(16:35):
You don't want to get a lettersaying Albert Einstein would not
have said that.
Well, and if somebody writesthat email to me, I can say,
well, actually he did say that.
You know.
But but there has to be somepoetic license, and you have to
know so much about thesecharacters that you know how far
(16:55):
you can take it.
Einstein had a great sense ofhumor, just a great sense of
humor.
So when I do a scene whereCharlie Chaplin takes him to his
first baseball game, even thoughI'm moving the plot along
because there's a fascist uhphotographer there documenting
what they're doing, I have a lotof fun in the baseball game
(17:16):
because Einstein, who can tellyou the physics of a curveball,
what makes a curveball curve,and we can have some fun while
we're in the in the bleacherswith them.
SPEAKER_01 (17:28):
I thoroughly enjoyed that baseball scene.
It was really fun.
Uh now, your research revealedstartling truths about Los
Angeles' role in the Nazimovement.
Can you talk about one or twodiscoveries that truly shocked
you and perhaps even shifted thedirection of your story?
SPEAKER_00 (17:47):
The first discovery was that there was a fascist
movement, not just in LosAngeles, but across the country
in the 1930s.
And as Hitler came to power in1933 and then consolidated power
between 33 and 39, there werethese, I'm gonna call them fan
clubs in the United States.
(18:08):
It's not a really gooddescription, but the
German-American Bund, the SilverLegion of America, these were
groups that wanted to emulatewhat was going on in Germany,
and some of them to do it byviolent means of an insurrection
and take over the government.
(18:28):
You know, the thepre-publication reviews are
saying basically this isunfortunately timely.
And I do think that no matterwhat your political slant might
be, we I think we could allagree that authoritarianism is
probably not a good idea.
And that our democracy hasalways been based on a certain
(18:51):
amount of self-restraint by theexecutive branch, that there are
norms that shouldn't beviolated.
And it's interesting becauseright in the middle of the
decade, 1935, switching back andforth from now to then, uh
Sinclair Lewis wrote a book, ItCan't Happen Here.
Well, it was an ironic titlebecause it did happen here in
(19:15):
his novel, where a populistbecame president and began
abolishing Congress and takingpower and becoming an
authoritarian.
And actually, things going onthat we would just say, this is
crazy, the Madison Square Gardenuh Nazi rally with 20,000 people
uh saluting Hitler in in NewYork, uh, Hitler youth summer
(19:38):
camps across the country.
And again, it's like this isalmost a forgotten piece of
history, but it all fit into uhMidnight Burning, where Albert
Einstein and Charlie Chaplin,and assisted by another real
character, I don't want to leaveher out, Sergeant Georgia Ann
Robinson, the first black femaleon the Los Angeles Police
(20:03):
Department.
Now she was real, but of courseI'm putting her in this
fictional situation.
And there are threetrail-blazing, almost outsiders.
Einstein born in Germany, uhChaplin, uh born in uh London
and never became a citizen,Georgian Robinson, the first
black female cop.
Um and that's how that all fittogether for me.
SPEAKER_01 (20:27):
Paul, you've touched a little bit about what Los
Angeles was like in 1938-39, butcan you paint a little more
in-depth picture of Los Angelesin those years socially,
politically, and culturally?
How did the city's openness, itsport and its entertainment
industry, make it bothvulnerable to infiltration and
(20:48):
also uniquely positioned forresistance?
Of course, I had to go downanother rabbit hole and learn
all about this openness of theport of Los Angeles.
I found that fascinating andterrifying.
SPEAKER_00 (21:00):
Well, it was bustling and it was growing.
And the Hollywood entertainmentindustry, which would have been
movies at the time beforetelevision, was a powerful
cultural force.
And of course, the studio headswere overwhelmingly Jewish, and
that made them targets.
(21:22):
LA also had a very largepopulation of uh now German
Americans, but Germans who hademigrated, many of whom had
served in World War I forGermany, fighting uh the Allied
powers.
So it was sort of a naturalplace for a hotbed of at first
(21:47):
sort of German friendship, youcould call it.
And there obviously the largeGerman American population, 90
some percent would have had nointerest whatsoever in
overthrowing the US government.
But there was uh this fellownamed William Dudley Pelley, who
was the head of the SilverLegion of America, who called
himself the American Hitler, ranfor president in 1936, um, only
(22:13):
got a few votes, but he preachedviolent insurrection to people
who were willing to listen tothis sort of thing.
And they plotted knocking overarmories and stealing machine
guns.
They had some sympathizers inthe U.S.
Army, not a lot, but it doesn'ttake a lot to start uh a revolt
(22:34):
or or an insurrection.
Um, other than that, uh, what Ireally what I like about Los
Angeles in the 1930s was the uhthe trolley car system, the red
cars, the electric uh uh theelectric trolley cars on the
streets.
You mentioned the port, thegrowing port of Los Angeles uh
(22:56):
was booming with internationaltrade.
It um the nightclubs on theSunset Strip were were going
strong.
We had some wonderful, colorfulAmerican gangsters from New York
coming out, Bugsy Siegel, MickeyCohen, who was from Los Angeles.
It was a wild and crazy place.
SPEAKER_01 (23:16):
And of course, there was a lot of racism too during
that time.
Uh I think the story that youhave within the book, within the
story of the young blackreporter, is disturbing and
heartbreaking.
SPEAKER_00 (23:29):
Yes, the the Los Angeles Sentinel was and is a
real newspaper.
It's it's a uh anAfrican-American newspaper that
covered in the 1930s and stilldoes today the black community
of Los Angeles and is a veryimportant cultural force.
(23:50):
And uh one of the characters uhin Midnight Burning is a young
reporter who gets a lead on thisinsurrection plot and is utterly
fearless, perhaps uh toofearless in tracking down the
leads, which take him to the uhthe Nazi consulate in uh Los
(24:11):
Angeles.
Oh, the other thing, and Ishould have said this by your
prior question, there really wasa plan, I referred to it in
dialogue, to have a Westernoffice home for Adolf Hitler.
Um for those who thought thatGermany would win the Second
(24:36):
World War, and that Germanywould occupy the United States
either by friendship, which someof the Lindbergh followers
wanted, or by force.
So they were looking for placeswhere Adolf Hitler might be able
to have fun in the PacificPalisades or wherever.
SPEAKER_01 (24:56):
Oh my.
SPEAKER_00 (24:57):
I know it's it sounds crazy.
SPEAKER_01 (24:59):
Let's talk about Steve Ross's book, Hitler in Los
Angeles.
He said of the resistance,quote, they stopped this without
ever firing a gun, without everusing a weapon.
They used the most powerfulweapon of all, their brains.
End quote.
How did this principle shape theway you portrayed your
(25:19):
character's choices in MidnightBurning?
SPEAKER_00 (25:22):
Yes, that's uh Professor Stephen Ross uh at
USC, and he wrote a book calledHitler in Los Angeles, which
again, when it hit people, whatwhat what is it?
And that's nonfiction, I shouldsay.
And what he was talking aboutwas almost a citizens committee,
uh citizens undercover operationstarted by a lawyer named Leon
(25:47):
Lewis, who uh plays a large rolein that book, who was a World
War I veteran, American, uh oneof the founders of the
Anti-Defamation League.
And when he saw what was goingon at these German American
friendship clubs uh atDeutschhaus downtown, and the
Nazi bookstores, that there werethree or four uh that were
(26:11):
peddling uh hate information inLos Angeles and in the valley,
he recruited a number of WorldWar I veterans, most of whom
were not Jewish, because theyhad to infiltrate these groups.
And they successfully did it.
And that's, I believe, what uhProfessor Ross is talking about
when they did it without guns.
(26:32):
So they were eventually able togather the evidence that the FBI
wouldn't go after and present itto um, I want to say Navy
intelligence, army intelligence,and go at them that way and
finally get the FBI involved.
SPEAKER_01 (26:47):
There was such a lot of planning involved because of
course the Nazis also had theirspies everywhere.
And this brings me to my nextquestion.
Do you see parallels between theresistance of the 1930s and 40s
and today's forms of resistance,whether through art, intellect,
or activism?
SPEAKER_00 (27:07):
Well, I think that in any generation we need to be
aware that democracy is not agiven.
The democracy is because we'vehad uh our countries from 1776
or whatever, uh that doesn'tmean that we will always have a
democracy.
And that the struggle betweentyranny and democracy is is
(27:31):
ongoing.
So at the very least, let's bealert to any inroads that would
fracture what we have enjoyedand almost enjoyed without
thinking about for so long.
So, yes, I I do see parallels.
SPEAKER_01 (27:49):
Yeah, I do too.
Um, there was one figure in thebook who I would like to talk
about because he had such aninteresting arc, and that is Dr.
George Gisling.
SPEAKER_00 (28:00):
Uh uh yes, George Gisling was the Nazi console in
Los Angeles, real character.
And as I uh portray him in thebook, one of his main jobs was
to get the scripts from theHollywood studios and censor
them with a red pen.
If the Hollywood studios wantedto show their films in Germany,
(28:24):
they had to pass his muster.
Germany was a huge foreignmarket in the 1930s.
And I I'm saddened to say thatthe uh executives, the moguls,
many of whom were Jewish, justrolled over and said, Okay,
we'll take out this reference inum the movie Three Comrades, uh,
(28:47):
that has a positive Jewishcharacter, and it will just take
him out of the script.
And this went on for years.
Chaplin did not submit hisscripts to the Germans, and uh
certainly when he made the GreatDictator in 1940, uh a brilliant
film, uh mocking Hitler andMussolini, uh he uh he did not
(29:10):
submit that uh for censoring.
But Giesling is a very, verycomplicated character.
He was not a diehard Nazi, hewas a bureaucrat.
And it came out after the war.
Not relevant to the events in mybook, but this is true, and it's
(29:30):
probably why I I made him dosome things that a diehard Nazi
wouldn't do, helping Chaplin andEinstein and something.
Uh he was passing along Germanmilitary information to an
American uh businessman inChicago who passed it on to the
War Department.
(29:51):
And that actually saved Eislingfrom being prosecuted after the
war.
And he lived a long and happylife, I presume.
In Spain.
SPEAKER_01 (30:01):
And were there particular challenges in
rendering Summon as welldocumented as Chaplin and
Einstein in a way that stillfelt fresh and human?
SPEAKER_00 (30:10):
Well, that's the double-edged sword of there's so
much written about them that iton the one hand, that's really
helpful to get things accurate.
On the other hand, it it it doespose a challenge because you
don't want to get things wrong.
(30:30):
And by its very nature, you'recreating fiction.
You're creating a fictionalstory with real people.
And I haven't done that before.
That's that's sort of uh this ismy first novel of historical
fiction.
I've always written legalthrillers.
Midnight Burning was a new stepfor me.
(30:51):
But if you read uh really,really experienced and good
historical novelists, uh, takeKristen Hanna and the
Nightingale, one of the mostpopular books of the last 25
years.
Um, she took a real person, aFrench resistance fighter, a
woman, who would lead Alliedpilots who've been shot down
(31:14):
over France and lead them overthe mountains to safety in uh, I
want to say Spain.
I hope I'm right about that.
Get them out of occupied France,at any rate.
And you have a certain amount ofleeway, but you also are bound
by some of what really happened.
SPEAKER_01 (31:32):
Yes, it's a sensitive fine line for sure.
I love reading historicalfiction, but it always needs to
be grounded in truth for me,because trust me, I'm one of
those people that will go backand uh fact check.
I know it's crazy.
But having said that, I enjoyreading historical fiction with
a little magical realism too.
(31:53):
Speaking of which, uh during the80s and nine early 90s, when I
was in film, we shot a lot atthe Charlie Chaplin stages.
And I gotta say, the last time Idrove uh up La Brea, I could
have been anywhere.
I did not recognize the stagesat all, which I guess are now
the uh Jim Henson Muppet stages,right?
(32:14):
I loved shooting at that stage.
They just had great areas forhair makeup and wardrobe, I
remember that.
But there was a feeling there,uh something unusual.
Did you ever shoot anythingthere?
SPEAKER_00 (32:28):
No, we shot at Sunset Gower, we shot on the
Paramount lot, we shot out in umout in the valley, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (32:37):
Yeah, I think depending on what department you
were in on the film crew, therewere definitely stages that you
preferred over others, Paul.
Ultimately, what do you hopereaders carry with them after
reading Midnight Burning abouthistory, about resistance, and
about the role of storytellingitself?
SPEAKER_00 (32:54):
I always want to entertain.
So I hope that at the end ofevery chapter, people will say,
I'm gonna pick up a book.
In author's school, they sayalways hold up the book.
There is no author's school, butthere should be.
But no, I I just one morechapter.
(33:16):
You write short chapters.
Let me read the next.
You get to the next one.
Now it's two in the morning.
The person is is still readingit.
So suspense, entertainment.
And I don't like to hit peopleover the head with theme.
I want people to gather thetheme.
One of the early moguls' uh mostfamous quotes was if you want to
(33:39):
send a message, call WesternUnion.
These days most people won'tknow what Western Union is.
Uh, but I do want to send amessage, and I do think, and
you've hit on it, Mandy, thatthat the parallels between the
1930s and today should be takenseriously, and that we should
always be on the lookout forthreats to democracy and our
(34:04):
traditions, our traditions ofrespect, of both one branch of
the government for the other andone branch of people for the
other.
We should be one people.
Um and in real life, Einsteinand Chaplin were both committed
to social justice.
Einstein founded theInternational Rescue Commission,
(34:26):
which helped people get out ofuh Nazi-occupied countries.
Uh, Chaplin made the greatdictator, which lives today, is
a great political statement.
Um, so without hitting peopleover the head, that that's what
I'd like them to gather.
SPEAKER_01 (34:42):
And you're writing a series of these books with
Einstein and Chaplin, right?
SPEAKER_00 (34:47):
Uh yes, this is the first of a series, and the
second one is almost done.
SPEAKER_01 (34:52):
Well, Paul, I'm looking forward to the next book
because I really enjoyed readingMidnight Burning.
And thank you for taking timeout of your day to have this
conversation with me.
Uh, it's been a lot of fun, andI really enjoy chatting with
you.
SPEAKER_00 (35:06):
Thank you, Mandy.
This has been fun.
You know, I made reference toJohn D.
McDonald earlier.
He got a fan letter, and hewrites back, thank you for your
note.
Writing is like droppingfeathers down a well.
Any echo is appreciated.
So thank you for the echo.
SPEAKER_01 (35:28):
You are so welcome, Paul.
You've been listening to myconversation with Paul Levine
about his new novel, MidnightBurning.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media.
And remember to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to this podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
(35:51):
thebookshoppodcast.com.
And make sure to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to the show.
You can also follow me at MandyJackson Beverly, on Instagram
and Facebook, and on YouTube atThe Bookshop Podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
(36:13):
the contact form at thebookshoppodcast.com.
The Bookshop Podcast is writtenand produced by me, Mandy
Jackson Beverly.
Theme music provided by BrianBeverly, and thanks to Kaylee
Dishinger for keeping meorganized.
I'll see you next time.
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