March 24, 2025 • 67 mins
In this episode, Mandy welcomes Paul Rudnick back to the show to discuss his hilarious new novel What Is Wrong With You?
Synopsis
A tech billionaire and the flight attendant he’s marrying. A TV superhero who used to be married to the flight attendant. A Manhattan book editor and the sensitivity associate who got him fired. A twenty-three-year-old wild child prodigy who’s perhaps the savior of American literature. A vengeful Arkansas sheriff who sells a vitamin-enriched, ten-pounds-off-today demulsifier. A Wall Street bro who raps on TikTok. Two dentists—possibly stalking each other.
What do these people have in common? Invited or not, they’re all headed to the most anticipated destination wedding ever, on the billionaire’s private island, to seek romance, to cause mayhem, and to figure out everyone else’s futures and maybe even their own.
Find out what happens in Paul Rudnick’s heartfelt new novel, which dares to pose the question essential to anyone who’s ever been in love: What Is Wrong with You?
To get your copy of What Is Wrong With You? visit your local independent bookstore. The novel is available on March 25, 2025, from Simon & Schuster.
What Is Wrong With You?, Paul Rudnick
Long Island Compromise, Taffy Brodesser-Akner
Our Evenings, Alan Hollinghurst
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a
bibliophile.
Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
Each week, I present interviewswith authors, independent
bookshop owners and booksellersfrom around the globe and
publishing professionals.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media, and remember to
(00:33):
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
You're listening to episode 286.
Before I get into this episodewith the fabulous Paul Rudnick,
a quick reminder.
If you're interested inattending any of the Santa
Barbara Lunch with an Authorliterary series luncheons, you
(00:54):
can go to my website atwwwmandijacksonbeverlycom.
Forward slash events and youcan get your ticket right there.
I hope to see you.
Forward slash events and youcan get your ticket right there.
I hope to see you.
Paul Rodnick is a novelist,playwright, essayist and
screenwriter whom the New YorkTimes has called one of our
(01:15):
preeminent humorists.
His plays have been producedboth on and off Broadway and
around the world and include IHate Hamlet Jeffrey, the Most
Fabulous Story Ever Told.
I Hate Hamlet Jeffrey, the MostFabulous Story Ever Told.
Valhalla, regrets Only and theNew Century.
He has won an Obie Award, twoOuter Critics Circle Awards and
the John Gassner PlaywritingAward, and two of his short
plays have been included inStanding on Ceremony, the Gay
(01:37):
Marriage Plays.
His novels include SocialDisease and I'll Take it both
from Knopf and Playing thePalace from Berkeley.
He's a regular contributor tothe New Yorker and his articles
and essays have also appeared inthe New York Times, esquire,
vogue and Vanity Fair.
Harpercollins has publishedboth Mr Rudnick's collected
plays and a group of essaystitled I Shudder.
(02:00):
His essays have also beenincluded in the New Yorker
anthologies Fierce Pajamas andDisquiet Please.
Mr Rudnick is rumored to bequite close to Premiere
Magazine's film critic LibbyGelman-Waxner, whose collected
columns were published by StMartin's under the title, if you
Ask Me, ms Gelman-Waxner hasalso reviewed in the pages of
(02:21):
Entertainment Weekly, and thecolumn now appears every four
weeks on the New Yorker website.
Mr Rudnick's screenplays includeIn-N-Out Sister Act, the Screen
Adaptation of Jeffrey andAdam's Family Values.
His young adult novels entitledGorgeous and it's All your
Fault have been published byScholastic.
He has appeared on the TodayShow, real Time with Bill Maher,
(02:45):
conan O'Brien, a Prairie Home,companion and Fresh Air, among
other programs.
On September 12, 2020, hbobegan airing Coastal Elites,
written by Mr Rudnick, directedby Jay Roach and starring Bette
Midler, dan Levy, issa Rae,sarah Paulson and Caitlin Dever.
His novel Farrell Covington andthe Limits of Style was
(03:07):
published in June of 2023 bySimon Schuster.
The paperback of FarrellCovington was published in June
of 2024.
His new novel, titled what IsWrong With you, will be
published on March 25, 2025 bySimon Schuster.
Paul, I am so happy to welcomeyou back to the Bookshop Podcast
.
It's great to have you here.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Oh, my pleasure.
Thank you so much for having meback.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Well, please know you're welcome back anytime.
I've got a little tidy officeenvy happening here.
The last time we spoke youroffice looked like mine, which
looks like a cyclone has hit it,but today your office looks
like there's not a thing out ofplace.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
No, yours looks like a human being lives there, mine
looks like someone, someonewho's cleaning person just left,
but that's rare, so pleaseignore the tidiness.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I'll do the best I can.
I keep thinking of you sittingin front of your computer on our
last Zoom conversation andbeside you was a stack about
four feet tall of manuscripts.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I felt at home.
Oh, yes, that's my office inManhattan, which is yeah, it's
much more Dumbledore and muchmore, you know, hazardous.
I'm now out on Long Island,where things are a little bit
more sane.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
See, I think that's what I need.
I need a second home.
Let's talk about your new novel, what's Wrong With you.
I loved it from the title ofthe page, the book cover and, of
course, the story.
But there's something I noticedabout it, because the opening
format of what Is Wrong With youreminds me of a cast breakdown
for a stage play.
Is this how you first wrote themanuscript, or did you add this
(04:43):
halfway or when you'd finishedwriting the story?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
did add that chapter after I'd finished everything
else, because I realized whenthe book had begun with just one
character situation with Rob,it was deceiving that you
thought, oh, okay, we're justfollowing this guy.
And then, as soon as I put inthis sort of menu, this welcome
to you know, a larger world, itmade a lot more sense and I
think readers found it much,much friendlier.
So it's um, yeah, but it's.
(05:25):
I'm glad you picked up on thatbecause it was very necessary,
because I'd never writtenanything where there were so
many people all coming fromdifferent parts of the country
or the world and you eventuallyfind out how they, how they
intertwine.
But I thought, okay, let's setthis up.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
I think it flows beautifully.
Um, now you've got, as you said, a lot of characters.
I think there's about eightcharacters sharing the spotlight
in the story, plus Dax, who'slike your supporting actor, and
Jake, who appears in backstoriesand as an apparition, while
being a fixture in Rob's life.
How did those characters cometo you All together?
Or, as you wrote, did anotherone appear?
(06:03):
They began to accumulate.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I did not outline, I had a vague sense of where it
was headed, but I didn't want torestrain myself in any way.
So one thing that and I'd neverwritten a book that was in this
particular form, where youvisit so many different people
and they are all end up at thesame destination.
But it was exciting.
It's one of the things I loveabout writing is when the book
(06:26):
itself, the material and thecharacters, surprise you.
And they did, because it beganwith Rob, who had been inspired
by, actually, this random blogpost I'd come across a few years
ago.
I have no idea who this guy wasto this day.
It was one of the saddestthings I'd ever read.
It was this guy who hated hislife.
He hated his romantic prospects, he hated his job, his family,
(06:50):
everything.
And it wasn't whiny, it wasmore heartbreaking.
And I just thought, oh my God,where would someone go from here
?
And I thought you don't want tosort of stay in that darkness
for an extended period.
But I thought, okay, what wouldlegitimately cheer this man up?
Where could I bring him?
That would show him at leastthe possibility of a better life
(07:12):
?
And that was the spark.
And then from there it went to astory of real friendship
between Rob and Sean, histrainer, because I thought I'd
never really seen a uh, a storyabout a straight guy and a gay
guy who got along so well, andit was just, and I thought, oh,
okay, that would be kind ofdelicious to write.
(07:34):
And then all their spousesstarted to arrive and their
children and their best friendsand their families, and it just
became raucous and I loved that.
So it just, I held on for dearlife and it was.
It reminded me a little bitlike of an Altman film or
something where you sort ofcatch up, um, but yeah, it was.
(07:56):
I was always wonderfullysurprised by what happened next
and I found while I was writingit I could could always feel,
okay, this belongs.
And then I'd write a sectionand realize, ah no, this is
extraneous, this can go away.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, it was a very satisfying experience.
And it's satisfying to read.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Oh good, oh, I'm so glad.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
I may have asked you this question about Farrell
Covington and also Gorgeous butI'm always interested.
Did you write this straightthrough, apart from the cast of
characters that you added afteryou'd finished the book, or did
you write it as the scenesappeared?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
I write pretty much from beginning to end because I
can't wait to see what willhappen next.
I'm very irresponsible anddon't have note cards or
spreadsheets or bullet points.
I just think, okay, what's youknow?
And it's funny becausesometimes it'll take me a moment
to realize, okay, this is whatthe book wants, this is what the
(08:50):
characters are crying out for,and then I just follow their
lead.
So it's, yeah and it's.
It happened on FarrellCunningham too.
I had this sort of sea change inmy writing life where I just
let these stories kind of eruptand they ended up structuring
themselves, which had never beenmy strong point, but I was so
(09:10):
pleased that it suddenly therewas plot, there was
foreshadowing, there was Dina,all those good things and yeah.
So it was always a uh, you know,a roller coaster where I
thought, oh, okay, this, oh, Ican't wait to see where this guy
goes or what would happen here.
And what's also very helpfulabout working that way is when
(09:31):
there's a wrong note or a badturn, you're that, whatever that
writerly part of my brainstarts to spark and goes nope,
no, no, no, you, you know that's, that's not the right thing.
Note to strike.
Um.
And that's so helpful becauseyou realize, oh well, maybe it
is, and you realize I shouldstop arguing with myself.
(09:53):
You know, whatever that littleneuron is, it knows better.
Um, it was deeply pleasurablekind of writing, even when there
might be an occasionalroadblock or a moment of where I
think, ok, did this just insome way go off the rails or die
entirely.
It was like nope, I knew.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I always knew very quickly what it needed,
sometimes after a long walk anddo you tend to go back each day
and edit what you've written theday before I?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
charge ahead.
I find I like to sort of vomitout a first draft, and I do have
this recurring nightmare, whichis so absurd, that I will
finish a rough first draft, Iwill be hit by a bus and die and
somebody will find this draftand imagine I thought it was
good.
I will be be displeased,they'll try to honor me and you
(10:47):
have to realize every element ofthis fantasy is particularly
rational, plus the fact thatI'll be dead.
So why would I care?
But it took me a while in mycareer to realize nobody cares,
nobody's going to find thatmanuscript, just keep going.
So that then, because I lovethe rewriting process.
Once I've got, um, something inhand, however unwieldy or rough,
(11:11):
I love going back in and thentinkering and polishing and
doing endless versions of it tosee, oh no, no, this I get what
I was after here, but I can makethis so much better.
Um, but yeah, so, and it's oncein a while I'll read a little
bit just to sometimes, if I needto remember wait, where was I.
But I'll never go back to thebeginning and say okay, then
(11:34):
I'll get exhausted and I'llstart to pre-edit and that's.
That's usually not healthy.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
What about first readers?
Is it John?
What about first readers Is?
Speaker 2 (11:43):
it, john.
No, no, I learned that by trialand error.
It's like, no, never expectyour partner or your spouse to
be your fan, your critic, youreditor, any of those things.
So that I thought that's aterrible burden to place on
someone.
I remember, on our very firstdate, I made such a huge mistake
and he was so gracious about it.
(12:04):
I brought him to a play I hadwritten and then it only
occurred to me afterwards oh, no, pressure there.
It was just the cruelest thingto book.
What was he going to say, youknow?
But he was wonderful about it.
But so that, and I?
So?
I learned over the years that no, no, no, no, no, that's not,
(12:24):
that's not his job, and don'tmake him do that.
No, I have a couple of friends,I have my editor, I have a
wonderful agent, esmondHarmsworth, who I can trust.
You know the people who willtell me, however gently, or
maybe a little better than that,that when things aren't right
aren't right, and becausethere's weirdly, I've discovered
(12:45):
also over the years, there's agreat satisfaction in writing
300 pages and then realizing youhave to throw the whole thing
out.
Oh my goodness.
That happens to me more thanonce, but I'm always so grateful
for that reader who will tellme Paul, you know, sit down,
this isn't working, so that Idon't go further with it, so I
don't keep trying to fixsomething that's utterly
(13:07):
impossible.
But yeah, there are a couple ofpeople, and then my wonderful
editor, peter Borland, at Atria,at Simon Schuster, that they
especially because what I loveis when there's a certain
chapter or a section that reallyneeds to go.
But I've a little bit got mywriterly backup because I just I
want everything to be perfectand I think, wait, I can fix it.
(13:29):
I can, you know, I'll make itbetter.
And no, it really just needs tobe cut entirely.
And my agent and other peoplewill keep nudging me and saying
do we need that?
Do we really like that?
You know it always uses theword we the way you would with a
child to make.
So it's like no, we're nottelling you to do this, we're
all on the boat together.
And I eventually, then the day,I call him up and say you know
(13:52):
what?
I cut that whole chapter.
I'm so proud of myself.
They're too smart to say, yeah,we've been telling you to do
that for six months.
So there have been those momentsand once in a while, I even
realize it before I show them myfirst draft, I will cut a
(14:12):
section and feel as if, oh, no,this will be published
separately someday, you know insome sort of memoir or diary,
and it'll be this undiscoveredgem and it's like no, no, it was
just the wrong thing.
Um, but yeah, no, I do.
I so treasure those, thoseearly readers, because you know,
(14:32):
anyone you can fail in front ofis invaluable and also I trust
their, their opinions and theirtastes so completely so I never
feel like, well, they're juststupid.
Of course, my two-year-oldinside me, who thinks you know
anyone who has any editswhatsoever, is just, you know,
(14:54):
ignorant.
But they're not, they're really.
They're much smarter than I amand they are.
They know their jobs, they'rereally good at them and you
realize.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Well, also your agent Esmond Harmsworth.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Oh the best.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
While I haven't met him in person, in emails he's
such a gentleman, always polite,you know, always returns my
emails and I appreciate histhoughtfulness.
You are so lucky, as is he, forrepresenting you.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Oh, I am.
No, he's the best.
He also has the best name inthe world.
That I mean, I keep thinking Icould not do better than to name
a character, esmond Hemsworth.
But he's just a delight, and heis such.
He's incredibly kind andincredibly tough minded at the
same time, which is what youwant.
That's invaluable.
So that he's you know, and Imentioned to him.
(15:40):
You know, esmond, I get howsweet you're being, but you
don't have to just tell me it'sbad.
Just get out the big red pencil.
But yeah, no, he's just atreasure.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Okay, back to what is wrong with you.
There's a passage on page 310,where Rob is thinking about Jake
and you write quote Rob decidedthat silliness, or at least
appreciation of love's.
I felt this paragraph was truth.
It spoke of truth and it jumpedout at me as the theme of the
(16:32):
story.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
It is very much so, because the book is an
exploration of every aspect oflove imaginable, which includes
loss, and includes the greatestloss of all, which is when
someone you love dies.
And Rob is wrestling with thatfrom quite a bit of the book and
it was particularly a grimdeath.
But it's something I've learnedover the years.
(16:54):
It's sort of the differencewhen you go to someone's
memorial and everybody's havinga wonderfully good time and you
realize that's not inappropriateor diminishing in any way,
especially if the person whodied was beloved.
You want to remember them attheir best, at their funniest,
at their brightest, at theirmost inspiring, and that it
(17:14):
doesn't lessen the the, the loss, but let remind you of why you
valued this person.
And that's something that robreally has to go through,
because that's not an easy thingto to achieve.
But yeah, I realized and it'ssomething that, because I'm a
helplessly comic writer, Irealized, no, but I want to
(17:36):
delve into the deepest possiblesubjects also because they'll
often be the funniest as well.
But life never falls intocategories.
Nothing is unrelentingly grimor hilariously funny all the
time.
They're always mixed togetherand I found, with people I know
who've experienced the worstlife has to offer, from
battlefields to fatal illnesses,to family abuse.
(18:00):
They often have this balancewheel which is their sense of
humor, and they can shock peoplewith it and I love that.
And I love that trying that inmy books, where you realize, no,
if you could, it's the light atthe end of the tunnel.
You know that, it's the joythat you thought you'd lost
forever.
And that's where Rob arrives.
(18:22):
And the trick, I think, and thechallenge, is to justify that,
because I think we're allterribly jaded and cynical, with
great justification, whichmeans we're very wary of a happy
ending or a moment of pleasure.
So I want the reader to be ableto really buy into it and say,
okay, that I'll go.
(18:45):
You know, I won't feel like afool or a sucker.
And with Rob, because he's aneditor, he's, he's read so many
romances, he's read so manynovels, he knows the tropes I
thought if I can make himgenuinely feel better and
genuinely acknowledge, in a way,a certain structure to his life
, that would be you know what I,what I was after all along.
(19:09):
So it's.
But yeah, I'm so glad you readthat passage, cause yeah, it's,
it's a real summation for him.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
In this novel.
I was taken once again withyour talent for conveying
characters traits via your useof descriptions and dialogue.
There's a description ofTremble Woodspill I love that
name and where you write, quoteshe may have downed a few
Adderall which she consideredmildly enhanced Skittles, end
quote.
In that short sentence thereader immediately gets the gist
(19:38):
of Tremble's personality, whichalso shows through in the name
of her novel Life as we FuckingKnow it.
I'd love to know more aboutTremble and how you came up with
her name.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Oh, yeah, well, tremble Woodsville.
The name came to me in aninstant and I of course had the
immediate reaction of oh my God,that's so over the top.
And then I couldn't get rid ofit.
I thought, no, that's her name,that's the name she wants, and
because she's one of theyoungest characters in the book
she's just in her early 20s andshe's a writer, so I didn't want
to be too precious with her.
You know, often when you readthere's a writer figure in a
(20:11):
novel, you think, oh, that'sgoing to be a stand-in for the
actual author and it's going tobe deeply sensitive.
And, um, you know, this fantasyversion of whoever is is
penning this.
So when I thought, no, no,she's much wilder than that and
I wanted her to be somebody whodidn't immediately leap out at
you as a grad student at thefiction workshop, you know she's
(20:35):
an essayist and she's fromArkansas and she's lived this
very rough life, but she's gotthis wild sense of humor and
sense of herself, and so Iwanted to convey all that, also
because she's you know, she'scome from foster care.
She is surrounded by a lot ofpeople who doubt her on every
level.
(20:56):
You know she's biracial, she'severything that doesn't quite
belong in that small town whereshe grew up, and so she's
written her way out of thatplace.
And I also, I love therelationship between her and Rob
.
You know her 60-year-old gaywhite editor in Manhattan.
You know it's so unlikely, butI found with editors, the best
ones.
(21:16):
They often like to discoverpeople and they like to discover
voices that are very differentfrom their own or their usual
stable.
So Rob, just just, you know,cherishes tremble and when they
meet up it's just such a, youknow, a wonderful epiphany for
both of them.
But tremble, yeah, tremble justappeared, and I also was
interested, because sometimesshe almost could shock me,
(21:38):
because she really is soresilient and so inventive and
she, she will go from, you know,a tugboat to a shipping
container to Times Square.
And yet there's a moment that Ithink is also very central to
her, which the first time shecomes to New York and sees Times
Square, for the first timeshe's never been anywhere
(21:58):
outside her small town.
She's looking at these mobs andthese signs and the noise and
she says, says, this is exactlywhat the inside of my head looks
like yeah, that was such agreat line and I love that, a
moment of identification and howshe manages to place time
square in her experience and youhear, you only get a sample of
(22:18):
her writing, sort of towards theend of the book, which I think
I've experimented with a littlemore, but I thought, no, no,
that's what you want, becauseshe's also this is her first
book.
There actually was a moment whenI was going to call the whole
book Life as we Fucking Know it.
That would present a problem,you know, on the Barnes Noble
bookshelf so, and I think, andthen, once I realized it should
(22:39):
be, what Is Wrong With you, itfelt like oh, that's what it was
meant to be all along, becausepeople say that to me so many
times a day, I say it to so manyother, no, I say it to so many
other people.
Everyone loves saying it outloud when they realize that's
the name of the book.
So it felt, no, that's perfect,because it was especially, I
know, in married couples there'salways that moment where you
(23:03):
stare at the other person andyou go what is wrong with you?
Who are you?
How did I ever marry you?
I always love that and then youcan get past that, but there is
that sense of who is thisdisheveled stranger in my
apartment?
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, I think in my situation I sometimes add a few
curse words in that sentence.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Oh, of course, of course.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
What I love and enjoy about your writing is that when
I pick up the book, I know I'mgoing to get a giggle and I know
it's going to be easy to readand it's going to uplift me.
And yeah, when she says thatabout Times Square, it was just
a reminder of the stupiditythat's going on around us right
now socially.
I think the juxtapositionbetween Bimble and Isabel yes,
(23:51):
Isabel McNally, the sensitivityassociate.
Let's talk about thissensitivity associate.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
No, I've known so many Isabels, though, and
sometimes they're very wellintended, so I didn't just want
to condemn her, and I think sheends up in a much better place
in the book.
But the thing I find a littlefrightening in the publishing
world and in the arts in generaland in life, are the people who
don't just want absolutepolitical correctness at every
second, but want it enforced.
(24:20):
I always think no.
Everyone is entitled to theiropinion.
You can go online, you can ratethings, you can give them stars
or no stars, but what you'renot allowed to do is to actually
erase someone's work.
You can't censor it.
You can't say this should neverhave been published or this
should be taken off the shelves.
(24:46):
A little of that going on, or alittle more than that in the
world, and it's not related inany way to all of the dei um
chaos that's going on right now.
It's much more about.
It's the point at which theloony left meets the old,
hardcore christian right,because they both want things
only their way.
They don't want any othervoices to be heard, and that
that's scary.
And Isabel, because she's veryyoung and she's welcomed to the
(25:10):
world of publishing at a veryspecific moment when people are
looking for a sensitivity edit.
You know, we've all heard thesestories of books, some of which
have been taken off the shelves, have been before publication
sometimes, and some of them haveactually triumphed over that
sort of, you know, doctrinairefeedback.
(25:32):
But it's really, it's somethingI really wrestled with because I
thought no, no, no, I don't.
I'm thrilled to have a realeditor go over my work and to
have readers respond, but Idon't need a policeman.
You know, you don't wantsomeone who says also because I
can see it in other people'swriting when they're being
overly careful and too cautious,when they're saying I don't
want to offend anyone, and itflattens everything out and
(25:53):
they're polite and you think,okay, I'm not buying this.
All of a sudden, this is toonice.
Yeah, you're writing for theteacher to give you an A and
it's a real danger.
And so Isabel is the sort ofloony version of that where she
just is like a fever in her toremake the world.
(26:13):
And I think you could only havethat sort of passion in a way
when you're very young and youthink you can.
You know where you imagine oh,I can make everything I touch
better and more well-behaved andunite the world and end climate
change this afternoon.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah, and marry a certain guy in the book I can't
give it away oh yes, well,that's what I love is that she.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I think where Isabel sort of falls apart in the most
sort of deliciously frazzled wayis when her libido and her
heart take over.
She's got all these crushes,she's got a love affair that
she's kind of ashamed orembarrassed by and she doesn't
know what to do with them.
And I love taking someone who'sthat confident and that totally
sure of herself and, you know,messing with her Because she has
(27:00):
this vision, which I kind ofrespect in a way, because I love
anyone who's that.
The people I've met in theworld who are the most confident
usually are the most deluded,you know, and sometimes the
least talented.
I once knew a writer who at theend of every working day she
would put the pages she'd beenworking on in the freezer
(27:22):
because supposedly, if yourhouse burns down that will be
the last place to burn, and Ithought I wish I had that
reverence for my work that Iwanted it chilled every morning,
you know, she just had such asense of her place in the world
and she was not a good writerand I thought but I love how,
(27:43):
you know, she'd also clearlycome from wealth, but she, you
know, it's like sometimesthere's been a mommy and daddy
who've never said the word no,and Isabelle's a bit of that,
but it's, but yeah, she's just.
Also, I love the sense of whatsomeone's starting out in the
world, because I remember havingyou know huge chunks of this
(28:03):
where you feel, oh wait, maybeI'm a secret genius, you know,
maybe I really am the Messiah.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, until someone says to you hey, what is wrong
with you?
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Completely.
That's what she's never heard.
Or she always thinks that thepeople in her small town or in
her college class or or in inthe larger world are just not as
evolved as she is.
You know, and we've seen thoseit's it's a stance that's very
much encouraged in academia.
You know where people are,they're sort of siloed a little
(28:40):
bit.
They usually have fans.
They really get very, um, youknow, just tyrannical in their
opinions.
And Isabel is, you know, I hopeby the end of the book she's
sort of course, corrected alittle bit because that's not a
good way to be for the rest ofyour life because you're going
to get smacked hard, but by lifeitself and probably by
(29:02):
individuals as well.
Yeah, but she was fun to writejust because she was, so one
track.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
On page 13, we see Isabel through Rob's eyes.
Quote Isabel didn't greet Rob,but then again she never greeted
anybody because, as she'dexplained at her introduction to
the staff, women are too oftenrequired to project a
stereotypical caretaking, falsewarmth, as Rob had noted at the
time.
This would never be a problemwith Isabel, who was somewhere
(29:30):
in her 20s and wore boxyhandwoven tunics and chunky
wood-soled half boots.
Her hair was hennaed andmountainously frizzy daring,
sexist judgment or a comb.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Well, everything about her is a statement and a
challenge to, to the people whoshe meets.
Just how dare you pick at mefor anything?
You know, find any flaw, um,but she's yes.
Well, I think this is somethingthat women have to deal with
far more than men all of themand get their share.
But that sense of oh my god,you're constantly being judged
(30:06):
and you're constantly beingtormented into picking a persona
for the day, let alone awardrobe, that, um, in a
hairstyle, it's that thing ofokay, what will I be attacked
for?
Especially, I mean, it's withanyone young nowadays or even
plenty of old people online aswell where you realize that the
(30:28):
world is your Yelp, that therewill be people out there all too
eager to rip you to shreds, andthat's ooh, it's that scary
when you realize that.
I think that protection ofeither anonymity or just the
Internet lets people become verycruel with each other.
(30:48):
And I think Isabel is a littletoo comfortable with that at
first because of her absurdself-assurance, but yeah, she
really.
She's just basically had waytoo much time at a very liberal
college.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Okay, let's talk about another hilarious
character, and that is Rob'sbest friend, the dentist Paolo
Baumgartner.
There's a great description yougive of him here.
Paolo was fully clothed on theduvet, wearing sunglasses and a
striped dish towel knottedbabushka style on his head.
What would you suggest to newwriters struggling with
(31:26):
character descriptions?
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Oh well, I think I mean some writers sort of pop
out fully formed and I'm alwaysjust in awe.
But there are some where youthink no, you pick your details.
It's like, yes, it's all tooeasy to write 85 pages of
description of one character.
And it's like, no, you probablyneed two sentences of that.
So you just learned it andthat's something I found, at
least for myself.
(31:48):
You only learn from years offailed attempts that you really
figure it out and your brainstarts to tell you you know,
some of it may be that there'sthat mastery algorithm of how
many hours you need to becomebetter at any task when you
start to feel instantly when toshut up, you know when to stop
(32:10):
the sentence.
Although I did love someoneonline.
They were so sweet and theysaid they reviewed actually this
book.
They said there are, I think itwas this book.
They said there are no morecommas in the world because Paul
Rudnick has used all of them.
And then they gave me afive-star review.
So I just adored them and Ithought they're not wrong.
(32:33):
But sometimes I find in eachbook I'll develop a bad habit
that I then have to learn tocurb and then, luckily, my
editor will catch, but theweirdest thing is that it's a
different bad habit each time.
Catch, but the weirdest thingis that it's a different bad
habit each time.
You know.
It's either like descriptionsin group of threes, which you
need to learn to avoid becauseit will become very droning, um,
(32:54):
or too many commas and too manysemicolons, which are just I
think rob refers them asliterary zits where it's just
knock it off, you don't needthat many, and the reader is
going to go insane.
Um, but it's, uh, but I always,yeah, I always like to.
Usually after I'm far too faralong, I'll realize okay, what
(33:15):
was my bad habit this timearound.
Um, but yeah, it's, yeah, it'strue.
I mean, for young writers, Ithink, as in any field, pretty
much, keep doing it.
That is the only way you willlearn.
There are no shortcuts.
And again, don't treat everysyllable as if it were pure gold
(33:35):
, because it's not.
Even if you are faulkner, youknow, or dickens, you have to
learn how to cut, you know, Ialways I'm amazed at people, at
writers although some of themthey're probably absolutely
right who just resist editingand who say not enough, every
word is precious, it's like Iwish, but it's.
Yeah, I mean that would be my.
(33:56):
My real advice to anyone youngis first of all, find people
you're worth listening to anddon't treat yourself as if
you're the king james bible.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
You know you're not well, speaking about grammar,
where do you stand on the m dash?
Speaker 2 (34:14):
oh my god, oh, now you.
Now you really struck suchterror into my heart because
then I had to try to rememberwhat is the m dash and the new
yorker, which I sometimes writefor, just for the first time in,
like you know, 3,000 years,made a minor adjustment in their
house style and when Isometimes will write pieces for
(34:35):
them and they will come backcopy edited with, and it
suddenly turned into, you know,a Jacobean manuscript in written
in, you know know, with thequill pen, and I think, no, no,
I can't, you can't do that, um.
And then it becomes anegotiation.
So I have no position on anyforms of grammar.
(34:55):
I just think, god bless, I hadthe most wonderful copy editor
on um, on what is wrong with you, who was firm but gentle, and
she, just when she would findthings and, you know, just make
suggestions.
She was never like, she wouldn'thumiliate me even though I
deserved it, and I just thought,oh my God, thank God you're
here.
You know the idea that thereare people who have that skill
(35:18):
set and it's that's one of thethings I really worry about and
that that will fall by thewayside, that there are fewer
people who really want to becomeeditors, or that somehow people
will imagine that AI willaccomplish that, and I thought
that's something.
AI can't do you know?
Ai will tell you.
It's like the style function onyour MacBook.
(35:39):
It's often wrong, you know.
It corrects your spelling andyou're like no, no, no, that was
the person's name.
You can't fix that so that youwant that great human insight
and that great sense of someonewho really understands grammar
to that sort of Benjamin Dreyerdegree.
I mean, he's just the master.
(36:00):
I'm just flailing.
When it comes to punctuation, Ijust usually will go through
and say how much can I remove?
You know, because it's just,it's not, it's like sprinkles on
a cookie.
Well, not that I think the morethe better, but it's still just
.
You know, just because you candoesn't mean you should.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
That's excellent advice.
Early in the book you writeabout the commonalities of each
character.
Quote they all owned Tronephones and were all seeking love
in one form or another, butwere helpless to locate that
love or sustain it or evencategorize its nature.
End quote.
How far into the story didTrone Meston appear?
(36:41):
And, without giving anythingaway, did his backstory arrive
first, or the trone phone?
Or did you need this tech guru?
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah, well, I needed an organizing principle.
And also, once I realized thatthe book was that love was so
much the central subject, Ithought, okay, what if you had
someone who thought it could becontrolled, who thought it could
be mastered?
And I thought, okay, that onlya tech guru, with both their
insane amount of scientificknowledge and also their weird
(37:14):
distance from human behavior,would dare to attempt that.
And when I was writing Trone,you know there's that whole set
of gurus from Mark Zuckerberg,peter Thiel, steve Jobs, elon,
of course and it was never basedon any specific one of those,
but I did think it wasfascinating to have a character
who had that much power and thatmuch reach.
(37:36):
You know, that's somethingthat's really completely new in
the world, because you couldcompare those people to a Ford
or an Edison or anyone who had abreakthrough that changed the
way we live.
But those guys are.
I mean, it's been fascinatingto watch them as they've I
wouldn't use the word mature,but as they've grown older, you
(37:57):
know, they've all suddenly nowjust discovered their masculine
energy and that nonsense.
But I want Trone to have thatstrangeness that a lot of those
guys have, which may be anecessity for you to suddenly
create or promote a productthat's never been there before,
because I thought that can be,you know, hugely impressive that
(38:17):
, whatever you think of any oneof those guys, something like
Facebook or Mac or the MacBookor the iPhone, those have
changed the world, you know, inmany ways, and we all have them,
and that's the other thing Iliked about having a character
like that was what he literallyreached it to everyone's pocket.
You know everyone's enthralledto their devices, or at least
(38:40):
finds them necessary.
You know there are.
There are those few hermits whosay I'm offline completely, and
they're always lying.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Yeah, thank you.
I agree with you there.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
No, it's all that.
I know that the snobs willalways tell me and some of them
are my closest friends oh, Inever watched television.
I think you watch television onyour phone.
You still watch television.
You know, watching Max orNetflix is watching television,
even if you're pretending.
Well, it's not abc, it's not.
I love lucy.
I thought, no, you've got a tvon your wrist.
(39:12):
Um, so there it's something.
You know it's, it's inescapable, which is what I liked about it
as a writer.
I thought, no, this guy iseverywhere.
And I thought, with all thealgorithms that are being
invented and with AI and withcoding and everything, I thought
there will you know.
(39:33):
Now there are there already allthe dating apps which pretend
that they can match people,according to you know a very
short list of characteristicsand preferences and photoshop
photos.
But I thought what if you tookthat even further, where you
said I will use all thesevarious physio elements and
really determine an, a ultimatematch for each human being on
(39:57):
earth?
Would that be possible?
And, beyond that, would youwant it?
Because one of the things I loveis the way that love defeats
tech.
You know and it's the ultimatekind of message of the book that
when you try to controlsomething that cannot be
controlled, you know you'regoing to crash and burn,
horribly or interestingly.
(40:17):
But that's why Trone needed tohave the strangeness and the
acumen to attempt that sort oflunacy, to say I will, and that
he also imagines he's doing theworld this enormous goodness and
(40:38):
favor, that he will makeeveryone's lives easier.
It's like the people who tellyou you know, the only way to
really meet the one, the specialperson for you, is when you
stop looking.
That's the meanest thing youcould say, because then the
person goes okay, I'm going tostop looking, which means it's
(40:58):
like negative energy.
How do you stop looking?
And that then?
What if that person doesn'tappear?
What have you done wrong sincethis other guy gave you all this
advice and I think Trone's theultimate version of that of the
person who says I will give youthe answer.
You know, I will give you a.
Well, the other thing we're alllooking for in every area of
our life is a guarantee, a sensethat if you follow these three
(41:24):
you know mottos or bullet pointsyou will achieve whatever you
want.
Three you know mottos, um orbullet points.
You will achieve whatever youwant you know.
It's sort of like remember thesecret, that book that still
around that people.
Now people call it manifesting,but where you think, okay, if
you want that special person, ifyou want that job, if you want
that haircut, if you focus on itit will appear.
(41:46):
And I thought if that were truewe would all be billionaires
with great skin.
You know that it's justnonsense, but I totally
understand that urge, thatdesperate desire for sort of
surety, for some sense of please, dear God, or whomever, let my
(42:11):
life make sense.
And troned, because those guyskind of think of themselves as
you know if I was being kind I'dsay wizards but they think of
themselves as far more godlike,because my husband, john, is a
doctor and he's not like this.
But he has always told me aboutsurgeons and people who really
do think of themselves as havingextraterrestrial powers because
(42:33):
they do wield a certain levelof life and death over the world
.
But, um, I thought that's bothreally impressive and terrifying
anyone who thinks they canchange the human or lasso
somehow the human brain.
And that's one of the things Ilove about the way life actually
(42:56):
works is you can keep trying,you're never going to get there.
You know that we are too weirdas a species and too sort of
deliciously obstreperous andinstinctual.
So if you try and codifyeverything that's you know the
most blind alley of all thatyou're just it's just not going
(43:18):
to happen.
But I love watching trone try,because he's somebody who's
really you know.
He's decidedly odd but verycharismatic in a way too too,
because of his both hisconfidence and his insight into
human nature.
He's not in any way stupid.
So he became very helpful atvarious points in the story
where you thought he was goingto say something absurd or
(43:41):
helpless.
And he says something reallysmart and you realize, oh,
that's how he got there.
You know, that's why he has acorporate empire, that's why
people buy all his stuff,because there is something
slightly magic going on there.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
And you set Trone's personality out early by giving
us the backstory of the chickenstory, where he's trying to
outsmart his siblings and thechickens.
Yes, the final scene in the gymwith Rob and Sean is gorgeous.
I mean, I love the finalparagraph with the woman sitting
on the mat staring at them andTremble's book title tying up
(44:23):
everything.
Was this always the ending, ordid you write multiple endings
before arriving at thatparticular ending?
I think I did.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
I kept expanding the ending because I kept thinking,
okay, where does the book wantto end?
You really have to listen toyour work then to see.
You know how tidy does it wantto be or how unruly or how
abrupt.
You know, there's always thatsoprano sending where it just
stops, um.
But with this I thought I knewthat rob and sean were the um
(44:54):
core of the book and I knew thatI wanted to, and they both
experienced different forms ofloss, but they were, both had
had reached a kind of newplateau in their lives, but that
was satisfactory and not, butthat they understood each other
and that it was their friendshipthat would sort of get them
through.
So I knew I wanted it to bethat their version of a, their
(45:16):
sort of nutty version of anepiphany, um, and the fact that
because I love that the woman,there's a stranger who's
listening to them, who can'tdecide if they're like exes or
current boyfriends, or flirtingor getting straight.
They, just because everythingthey says takes you somewhere
else.
But that's what I love aboutthem and that it's.
You know, I think it's alwaysour friends are what will get us
(45:38):
through that.
They, they're what we reallyrely on, especially when our
lovers are vanishing or dying ordivorcing us.
Your friends are what you comeback to and I love how unlikely
that friendship is.
You know that it's this editorand this guy who's both a very
high-powered gym owner andpersonal trainer, who is also a
(46:01):
TV star superhero for a certainpart of his life.
You know it's just nuts, butthe thing is, I know people
who've been in both those placesin their lives and I adore them
.
And it's, yeah, it's also oneof the great joys that I think
of living in New York City isthat you're forced into contact
(46:22):
with every sort of person everyday.
You know it's not just yourneighbors on your block in your
often delightful small town.
It's people who you havenothing in common with, or you
think you don't, people who youimmediately are very suspicious
of, who end up being yourclosest friends and who would
entertain you endlessly and whogive you shockingly helpful
(46:47):
advice.
And that's what those two guysare for each other.
Um, but yeah, I knew and I knewwe needed to check in with
everybody, which we do by theend.
You want it to be satisfying,you don't, and you want to honor
everyone because hopefully, thethe readers have invested in
these people, and so we.
We do travel from one person tothe next, which I love.
By that point in the book, ifit's cooking, you get the.
(47:11):
You know that the reader willfollow you and that you don't
have to do enormous amounts ofdescription.
At that point it's like youknow you're.
It's like quick cuts in a moviewhere it's like, okay, here we
are in a private jet, here weare in an apartment building,
but Robin and and Sean justthere's a devotion there that I
really cherish.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Yeah, their relationship is precious.
Okay, I want to ask you aboutone more thing.
In the book, early on in thestory, we discover that the
publishing company where Robworks has been sold to corporate
overlord Trone Meston.
And you write, quote thearchitect for the new premises
is Finnish and had told the NewYork Times quote I hate
prominent entrances or visiblestreet numbers.
(47:51):
Instead of shouting, I want mywork to whisper and shrug.
End quote I love those lasteight words and the way it adds
to Rob's character.
And in circling back tosomething you were talking about
earlier, if we're all reallyhonest with ourselves, there are
fragments of all of us withinthe characters of this book and,
(48:13):
honestly, sometimes I wasblushing.
I thought, oh my God, Iremember doing or saying that.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
Oh, I'm so glad you said that, because that's how I
fall in love with all mycharacters that I think a writer
has to Even the ones who arevery wayward or close to evil.
You really have to embrace themall and find parts of yourself
in them.
No well, that bit also camefrom the gym I go to in Chelsea
in New York, the Chelsea Piers,and it's in what's called the
(48:40):
Starcitect area, where there areall of these enormous buildings
designed by the most highlypaid, respected, trendiest
architects.
So they're all wildly different, which I love visually, but
it's also, you know, chaos, andyou look at some of these places
and you think what were theyafter and who were they trying
(49:01):
to impress, sometimes by makingthe buildings as unpleasant as
possible, or is it's that thingof where you can't find the
front door, you know, when yougo, okay, I get, I get why.
That's where you'd say oh no,I'm over front doors, I'm bored
with front doors, you know, andespecially if you're a stranger
and you're trying to find astreet number, you go.
(49:23):
You know that would be helpful.
Well, and it was.
I was in an office in one ofthose buildings and they look
gorgeous from the outside.
They're so interesting becausethey always look like children
made them from crayon drawingsor blocks and um, but it had
which occurs in the book thissnake-like day.
It was a big open office,because that's the most current
(49:48):
form for workplaces.
It was no walls, no cubicles,no doors, nothing.
It's all open because that wayyou'll all interact and
everything will bubble up andyou'll have a lot of beanbag
chairs and it's like the Googleoffices are like that, which are
in that area.
And this was this windingplywood desk that went on for
(50:10):
like 50 feet or more andeverybody was sort of had their
own little corner of it and Ithought if I had to work here I
would cut my throat.
I thought there's no privacy.
You're also always weirdlycatching glimpses of the other
person when they're nodding offor, you know, watching porn on
their phone and I thought whoseidea was this?
(50:31):
Nobody likes it, even the youknow 22 year olds that it's, and
I thought this will go away andthey already know.
You could see in a lot of theseworkplaces walls are going back
up at least half walls.
People like their space andthey like to be protected and
they like to put their littlebobble heads along the edge.
So it's, but for a while thereand still ongoing that there's
(50:55):
that sense of oh no, we're all abig communal family, even
though some of us, and we'll allgive ourselves titles that
somehow sound non-hierarchical,like, you know, you're the
deputy associate, junior,quasi-executive, whatever, and I
thought, no, you're a secretary.
You know you're going to getthe coffee, no matter what your
(51:15):
title says.
So it's, but it's fun to watch.
Especially, it reminds me ofone of the great things about
being a writer is you don't haveto go to work every day in one
of those places, and so my heartgoes out to the people who, you
know, really have to show upand go.
Oh my God, that's why they allhave snack bars, because that's
the only part people really like.
(51:36):
It's like I can get through myday.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
And how does one cope with all of the noise, the
chatter and the tapping of akeyboard?
And, oh my God, I can'tconcentrate in that kind of
situation.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Oh yeah in that sense that I mean I understand the
value of listening to lots ofopinions, but not constantly and
not in that sense of, you know,a clubhouse.
It's like there's a certainsort of sense in a workplace
there should be people who arereally good at what they're
doing and good at differentthings, and therefore not always
(52:11):
having to sit there and stareat each other.
But it's also why, I think,during COVID, people started
which the big secret is peoplebecame incredibly productive
(52:33):
when they worked at home, whichevery writer knows, because you,
of course, you can be veryproductive and also have a lot
of snacks, you know, and sit onyour couch but in your sweat.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
Yeah, with a cat or a dog beside you.
Paul, when I was reading thisbook, I saw it as a play.
I just was thinking, oh mygoodness, I feel like I'm
sitting on the stage watchingthis as a play.
Do you have any thoughts aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (52:58):
Really, oh, that's so interesting.
Well, no, because one of thereasons why I've so embraced
fiction as of late is because Ilove the freedom and the sense
that if you're going to takepeople to wildly different
locations on stage, there arehuge technical problems there.
You have to.
How much scenery do we need?
What do we?
What one piece of what, onechair or table will tell the
(53:22):
story, and how much doubling doyou need if you don't want to
hire 83 actors?
But in a novel, if you want togo to the cocktails at the
Eiffel Tower, you're there, youknow, and you're.
Also you're not tormenting theother people and the producers
into giving you a hand.
So it's funny.
(53:44):
I mean, I find that my work asa playwright helped me
enormously in terms of dialogueand shaping a scene and knowing,
ok, get into this scene as it'swell underway.
Don't sort of start always fromzero, because then there's
going to be a lot of dead air.
Um, but so yeah, I mean that'sit.
(54:06):
Started with Farrell Covingtonwhere I realized, okay, whatever
skills I've developed over thecourse of a career, I'm using
all of them now, fromplaywriting and screen write a
play.
(54:29):
Plays are are technical beyondbelief, which I realized the
sort of mathematics of it.
But it's very tough and cansometimes I found it very
constraining after a whilebecause, especially if you're
writing comedy, you want to getthat laugh from the audience and
you want to get out of it fasttoo.
You want to have you get peopleon and off stage.
(54:49):
That's, if you ask any writer.
That can be the trickiest thingof all.
And lately I've seen even somewonderful plays that are all set
in living rooms in parlors witha big spiral staircase and
everybody's always finding areason to go off stage into the
kitchen or the bathroom, orthey're folding a throw on the
couch to give themselvessomething to do, or they're
(55:11):
plumping a pillow, or they'rebringing a dish of whatever to
the sideboard in ways that noone would ever do.
But when you work in thetheater you realize you got to
keep things active.
You know you got to give theactors something to do so they
don't just stand there and youknow jabber at you all the time.
(55:35):
But so that when I write playsI love that challenge.
But I also love writing bookswhere that's not an issue.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
There's something you spoke about in our last
interview for the podcast andit's to do with your friend, the
costume designer.
Speaker 2 (55:45):
Oh, william, I Belong .
Speaker 1 (55:46):
Yes, well, I was thinking about him while I was
watching a show the other night.
It's called Everybody's Live inLA, I think it's what it's
called.
It's John Mulaney's kind oflate night show, which is
totally wacky, and I love itBecause he did this one scene
where he had a whole lot ofpeople in a small room who had
(56:07):
played the lead in Death of aSalesman and they all had a
suitcase with them.
And I suddenly remembered youtelling me about I can't
remember which show it was, butit was one that William designed
and it had a suitcase in it.
Someone was carrying a suitcaseand it was a period piece and
he put props and clothing piece.
(56:31):
And he put props and clothing,everything he could think of in
that suitcase that had to dowith that period and it was to
help put the actress or actor inthat right frame of mind.
And I just thought that wasgreat.
Well, john Mulaney askedeverybody you know, what did you
put in your suitcases?
And someone said, oh, nothing.
Another one said rocks, I think.
But it was so interesting thatthat came back to me and now I'm
(56:52):
thinking about it.
It is easier to do in a novel.
Speaker 2 (56:54):
Yes, oh yeah.
Also because, unlike web, dead,screenwriting and screenwriting
is a little crazy because ofthe economics involved.
I remember when I was writing ascript for one of the Addams
Family movies and you write twosentences of description saying
Gomez and Morticia go to adecaying French restaurant.
And then I remember, then, afew months later, I went to a
(57:17):
soundstage in Los Angeles wherethey had spent hundreds of
thousands of dollars building adecaying French restaurant,
which was gorgeous, you know,with these wonderful actors, but
I I was had a heart attack.
I thought maybe we should havesent some kids to college with
this money.
You know, it was still thatsense of you have.
(57:38):
You know, there can be enormousamounts of money and skill and
design at your disposal, butthat's a little daunting.
And in a book, again, you cancreate the most sumptuous luxury
, the most, the rainforest, thepyramids, whatever you're after,
with a few words, and so it'syeah, and you just feel a little
(58:01):
less guilty as a capitalist.
You know when you're reallygoing for a certain lifestyle.
But yet no, william ivy, that,like the costume designer, he
was one of my best teachersbecause he taught me about
detail and about really lookingat everything about a character,
and not just what they'rewearing, but their attitude,
(58:22):
their posture, their economicstatus, all that stuff which he
is always so aware of, and theamount of research he does you
know, for any, for anyhistorical thing, but anything.
And these mood boards he createsand I thought, god he's, he's
writing his own novel yeah, Iwould love to meet him.
Oh, he's the best just knowinghe, yeah, also.
(58:44):
It's just wonderful because youget to see the result.
You know when I would go andsee the shows that he had
designed.
And he also designed a lot ofbig musicals and won many Tony
Awards, like the originalproduction of Nine and the
original production of Chicagono, the big revival of Chicago
that's run for 40 years, and Isee his genius and I see how he
(59:05):
also makes performers feel goodand he knows the human body and
he knows how to make someonesexy who never thought they were
sexy.
And you know he's a therapist inthat way too.
So it's, it's just an amazingskill set and it all.
Again, it was something youknow.
He studied French history atcollege.
(59:27):
He really has a craft toeverything he does, but and he's
crazy which is helpful too, youknow because he's like everyone
who's, you know, aperfectionist where everything
does have to be perfect and youdye things and you sew sequins
on and you do all that and youhave a staff and it's like, oh
my God, this is a, you know, alittle nation state in itself.
Speaker 1 (59:52):
Yes, he's an extraordinary creative.
Okay, let's talk about books.
Have you read anythingfantastic lately?
Oh yeah, I mean I've read tons.
Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
It's the Alan Hollinghurst book that was Our
Evenings is just magnificent.
I mean, I'm a huge fan of hisin general.
I have I haven't not read ityet um, stag dance, the new book
by tory peters who wrotedetransition baby, which I just
adored, um, I think she's thereal thing, I.
What else have I read that?
(01:00:21):
This is the trouble is,whenever anyone asks me what
I've read or seen, or let alonefor what are the five favorite
things, my mind immediately goesblank.
But you know, oh, I love LongIsland Compromise by Taffy
Brodesser-Ackner, which was fromsort of last year, but it was
just an extraordinary novel.
Um, all Fours by Miranda Julyis wonderful.
(01:00:42):
Um, you know, these are booksthat have been been wildly
successful as well, but thereare so many good writers out
there, I hate all of them.
No, I don't.
No, actually, I find that's theone thing I'm never jealous of.
I'm always so grateful when Iread something wonderful and
(01:01:04):
there's a little part of mybrain that is always going how
did they manage this?
And then you realize why wastetime being jealous?
You're never going to be them.
That's.
Their secret is that they havetheir own.
Um, you, know madness and andtalent, um, but I love it when
you realize, oh, my god, you'vereally done the impossible.
You've written a wonderful book.
That's so.
(01:01:24):
It is so, only that, only youcould have written.
So that, yeah, becausesometimes when I explore certain
other bestsellers where Ifigure out, okay, why is this
book, you know, been selling sowell for 15 years?
And I get it and it's great.
Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
But I thought I'm not going to read 15 volumes of
anything you know, yeah, youknow, I get books sent to me
every single day, from the bigfive to imprints, to small and
medium presses.
And I'll get this big stack andI'll start looking at it and
I'll think, okay, now, which onedo I need to read first, in
order, you know, of publicationand everything.
And I'll pick one up and I'llread, you know the first
(01:02:04):
paragraph, and I'll start tothink I don't know, do I want to
keep reading this?
Maybe I'll read, you know, thefirst paragraph and I'll start
to think I don't know, do I wantto keep reading this?
Maybe I'll give it a chapter,maybe I'll give it two or three
chapters, but I would say, outof the 10 books and this is kind
of being hopeful I would saythree make the cut.
Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
Well, and that's very generous.
Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
Yeah, it kind of is, isn't it?
But you know, the questions Iask myself are these am I going
to recommend this book Becausethat's important to me?
I don't like putting books down, but I love talking about books
that I love.
So if I don't like them, Idon't talk about them.
That's just the way I seethings.
And the other thing is do Iwant to give six to eight hours
(01:02:43):
of my life to read this book?
But taste is subjective, andthat's a good thing, because the
books that I may not like ordon't think are for my audience.
Someone else is just going toadore them, and that's great.
I'm not much of a romancereader, but I do love a good
romance, you know.
I hope that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
No, and I read them because I'm curious about what
are other people finding soaddictive, although there is one
book right now which I will notname it's a huge bestseller
literary fiction where I havetried to read it for the past
like eight months.
I will read three chapters andthen my eyes just refuse to
(01:03:25):
focus on the page.
I will then go read an entireother book that I actually enjoy
and then come back to it andsay I'm going to conquer this
like it's my everest, and latelyI've been thinking you know,
paul, maybe this just isn't thebook for you and you know what,
paul, that's okay it is, and youthink clearly the author has a
(01:03:46):
huge devoted fandom.
They just need me.
But it really was.
It became like my ultimate taskis if I was going to run into
her and I've never met thiswriter, and she'd say, well,
what did you think of Chapter 83?
And I was like, no, no, no,paul, you are allowed to stop
reading.
Also, I've already bought thebook, I've contributed to her
(01:04:09):
coffers, but I've always beenastonished that it really became
this strange sort of likemonastic self-punishment where
it was if you don't read twomore chapters, you are a bad
human being.
Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
Oh, I get it, I call it reader's guilt.
Are a bad human being.
Oh, I get it, I call itreader's guilt.
Yeah, now, I'm a pretty bigrereader.
I do have about probably eightto 10 books that I have reread
and reread.
One of them is your book,gorgeous.
That got me through thepandemic.
It gave me hope.
It just uplifted me, and youknow I love fashion.
(01:04:47):
It was great.
Are you a rereader?
Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
Once in a while I try not to both, because I'm always
sort of greedy for somethingnew and because I don't want to
sort of tinker with my memories.
It's why I won't go see moviesor plays more than once, because
I love them so much that Ithink, oh, I never want to get
bored with this.
I never want to suddenly seethe flaws, I just want to sort
(01:05:11):
of burnish how much I what thegreat time I had.
So, yeah, but once in a while Iwill go back to something, fall
into it and realize this is thebest you know and I, and once
in a while I'll when I've readsomething really awful, and once
in a while when I've readsomething really awful this is
terrible to say where it's justunspeakable and often acclaimed.
(01:05:32):
I will go back and readsomeone's book that I adored,
like remember Ann Patchett's theDutch House, which I just
thought was one of the bestbooks ever.
I'll go back and read a fewchapters to remember oh, there's
such a thing as good writing,because the bad book obliterated
that option.
I, no one has ever written agood book.
(01:05:52):
It's it's don't even try.
And then you go read somethingthat you loved and you realize,
oh no, no, this is, this is aworthy pursuit.
Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
Paul, I'm probably keeping you way too long.
I just thoroughly enjoychatting with you.
Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
Oh, I love it.
No, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
I love your new novel what Is Wrong With you?
And it's published in a coupleof days, right yeah, march 25th.
I wish you all the best with it.
And listeners, go and get thisbook.
It is going to make you laugh.
It's just hysterical.
Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
Thank you.
Thanks so much for having me.
This has been a joy.
Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
You've been listening to my conversation with author
Paul Rudnick about his new bookwhat Is Wrong With you.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
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(01:06:46):
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Thanks for listening and I'llsee you next time.
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a
bibliophile.
Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
Each week, I present interviewswith authors, independent
bookshop owners and booksellersfrom around the globe and
publishing professionals.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media, and remember to
(00:33):
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
You're listening to episode 286.
Before I get into this episodewith the fabulous Paul Rudnick,
a quick reminder.
If you're interested inattending any of the Santa
Barbara Lunch with an Authorliterary series luncheons, you
(00:54):
can go to my website atwwwmandijacksonbeverlycom.
Forward slash events and youcan get your ticket right there.
I hope to see you.
Forward slash events and youcan get your ticket right there.
I hope to see you.
Paul Rodnick is a novelist,playwright, essayist and
screenwriter whom the New YorkTimes has called one of our
(01:15):
preeminent humorists.
His plays have been producedboth on and off Broadway and
around the world and include IHate Hamlet Jeffrey, the Most
Fabulous Story Ever Told.
I Hate Hamlet Jeffrey, the MostFabulous Story Ever Told.
Valhalla, regrets Only and theNew Century.
He has won an Obie Award, twoOuter Critics Circle Awards and
the John Gassner PlaywritingAward, and two of his short
plays have been included inStanding on Ceremony, the Gay
(01:37):
Marriage Plays.
His novels include SocialDisease and I'll Take it both
from Knopf and Playing thePalace from Berkeley.
He's a regular contributor tothe New Yorker and his articles
and essays have also appeared inthe New York Times, esquire,
vogue and Vanity Fair.
Harpercollins has publishedboth Mr Rudnick's collected
plays and a group of essaystitled I Shudder.
(02:00):
His essays have also beenincluded in the New Yorker
anthologies Fierce Pajamas andDisquiet Please.
Mr Rudnick is rumored to bequite close to Premiere
Magazine's film critic LibbyGelman-Waxner, whose collected
columns were published by StMartin's under the title, if you
Ask Me, ms Gelman-Waxner hasalso reviewed in the pages of
(02:21):
Entertainment Weekly, and thecolumn now appears every four
weeks on the New Yorker website.
Mr Rudnick's screenplays includeIn-N-Out Sister Act, the Screen
Adaptation of Jeffrey andAdam's Family Values.
His young adult novels entitledGorgeous and it's All your
Fault have been published byScholastic.
He has appeared on the TodayShow, real Time with Bill Maher,
(02:45):
conan O'Brien, a Prairie Home,companion and Fresh Air, among
other programs.
On September 12, 2020, hbobegan airing Coastal Elites,
written by Mr Rudnick, directedby Jay Roach and starring Bette
Midler, dan Levy, issa Rae,sarah Paulson and Caitlin Dever.
His novel Farrell Covington andthe Limits of Style was
(03:07):
published in June of 2023 bySimon Schuster.
The paperback of FarrellCovington was published in June
of 2024.
His new novel, titled what IsWrong With you, will be
published on March 25, 2025 bySimon Schuster.
Paul, I am so happy to welcomeyou back to the Bookshop Podcast
.
It's great to have you here.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Oh, my pleasure.
Thank you so much for having meback.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Well, please know you're welcome back anytime.
I've got a little tidy officeenvy happening here.
The last time we spoke youroffice looked like mine, which
looks like a cyclone has hit it,but today your office looks
like there's not a thing out ofplace.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
No, yours looks like a human being lives there, mine
looks like someone, someonewho's cleaning person just left,
but that's rare, so pleaseignore the tidiness.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
I'll do the best I can.
I keep thinking of you sittingin front of your computer on our
last Zoom conversation andbeside you was a stack about
four feet tall of manuscripts.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I felt at home.
Oh, yes, that's my office inManhattan, which is yeah, it's
much more Dumbledore and muchmore, you know, hazardous.
I'm now out on Long Island,where things are a little bit
more sane.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
See, I think that's what I need.
I need a second home.
Let's talk about your new novel, what's Wrong With you.
I loved it from the title ofthe page, the book cover and, of
course, the story.
But there's something I noticedabout it, because the opening
format of what Is Wrong With youreminds me of a cast breakdown
for a stage play.
Is this how you first wrote themanuscript, or did you add this
(04:43):
halfway or when you'd finishedwriting the story?
Speaker 2 (05:05):
did add that chapter after I'd finished everything
else, because I realized whenthe book had begun with just one
character situation with Rob,it was deceiving that you
thought, oh, okay, we're justfollowing this guy.
And then, as soon as I put inthis sort of menu, this welcome
to you know, a larger world, itmade a lot more sense and I
think readers found it much,much friendlier.
So it's um, yeah, but it's.
(05:25):
I'm glad you picked up on thatbecause it was very necessary,
because I'd never writtenanything where there were so
many people all coming fromdifferent parts of the country
or the world and you eventuallyfind out how they, how they
intertwine.
But I thought, okay, let's setthis up.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
I think it flows beautifully.
Um, now you've got, as you said, a lot of characters.
I think there's about eightcharacters sharing the spotlight
in the story, plus Dax, who'slike your supporting actor, and
Jake, who appears in backstoriesand as an apparition, while
being a fixture in Rob's life.
How did those characters cometo you All together?
Or, as you wrote, did anotherone appear?
(06:03):
They began to accumulate.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I did not outline, I had a vague sense of where it
was headed, but I didn't want torestrain myself in any way.
So one thing that and I'd neverwritten a book that was in this
particular form, where youvisit so many different people
and they are all end up at thesame destination.
But it was exciting.
It's one of the things I loveabout writing is when the book
(06:26):
itself, the material and thecharacters, surprise you.
And they did, because it beganwith Rob, who had been inspired
by, actually, this random blogpost I'd come across a few years
ago.
I have no idea who this guy wasto this day.
It was one of the saddestthings I'd ever read.
It was this guy who hated hislife.
He hated his romantic prospects, he hated his job, his family,
(06:50):
everything.
And it wasn't whiny, it wasmore heartbreaking.
And I just thought, oh my God,where would someone go from here
?
And I thought you don't want tosort of stay in that darkness
for an extended period.
But I thought, okay, what wouldlegitimately cheer this man up?
Where could I bring him?
That would show him at leastthe possibility of a better life
(07:12):
?
And that was the spark.
And then from there it went to astory of real friendship
between Rob and Sean, histrainer, because I thought I'd
never really seen a uh, a storyabout a straight guy and a gay
guy who got along so well, andit was just, and I thought, oh,
okay, that would be kind ofdelicious to write.
(07:34):
And then all their spousesstarted to arrive and their
children and their best friendsand their families, and it just
became raucous and I loved that.
So it just, I held on for dearlife and it was.
It reminded me a little bitlike of an Altman film or
something where you sort ofcatch up, um, but yeah, it was.
(07:56):
I was always wonderfullysurprised by what happened next
and I found while I was writingit I could could always feel,
okay, this belongs.
And then I'd write a sectionand realize, ah no, this is
extraneous, this can go away.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah, it was a very satisfying experience.
And it's satisfying to read.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Oh good, oh, I'm so glad.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
I may have asked you this question about Farrell
Covington and also Gorgeous butI'm always interested.
Did you write this straightthrough, apart from the cast of
characters that you added afteryou'd finished the book, or did
you write it as the scenesappeared?
Speaker 2 (08:30):
I write pretty much from beginning to end because I
can't wait to see what willhappen next.
I'm very irresponsible anddon't have note cards or
spreadsheets or bullet points.
I just think, okay, what's youknow?
And it's funny becausesometimes it'll take me a moment
to realize, okay, this is whatthe book wants, this is what the
(08:50):
characters are crying out for,and then I just follow their
lead.
So it's, yeah and it's.
It happened on FarrellCunningham too.
I had this sort of sea change inmy writing life where I just
let these stories kind of eruptand they ended up structuring
themselves, which had never beenmy strong point, but I was so
(09:10):
pleased that it suddenly therewas plot, there was
foreshadowing, there was Dina,all those good things and yeah.
So it was always a uh, you know,a roller coaster where I
thought, oh, okay, this, oh, Ican't wait to see where this guy
goes or what would happen here.
And what's also very helpfulabout working that way is when
(09:31):
there's a wrong note or a badturn, you're that, whatever that
writerly part of my brainstarts to spark and goes nope,
no, no, no, you, you know that's, that's not the right thing.
Note to strike.
Um.
And that's so helpful becauseyou realize, oh well, maybe it
is, and you realize I shouldstop arguing with myself.
(09:53):
You know, whatever that littleneuron is, it knows better.
Um, it was deeply pleasurablekind of writing, even when there
might be an occasionalroadblock or a moment of where I
think, ok, did this just insome way go off the rails or die
entirely.
It was like nope, I knew.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
I always knew very quickly what it needed,
sometimes after a long walk anddo you tend to go back each day
and edit what you've written theday before I?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
charge ahead.
I find I like to sort of vomitout a first draft, and I do have
this recurring nightmare, whichis so absurd, that I will
finish a rough first draft, Iwill be hit by a bus and die and
somebody will find this draftand imagine I thought it was
good.
I will be be displeased,they'll try to honor me and you
(10:47):
have to realize every element ofthis fantasy is particularly
rational, plus the fact thatI'll be dead.
So why would I care?
But it took me a while in mycareer to realize nobody cares,
nobody's going to find thatmanuscript, just keep going.
So that then, because I lovethe rewriting process.
Once I've got, um, something inhand, however unwieldy or rough,
(11:11):
I love going back in and thentinkering and polishing and
doing endless versions of it tosee, oh no, no, this I get what
I was after here, but I can makethis so much better.
Um, but yeah, so, and it's oncein a while I'll read a little
bit just to sometimes, if I needto remember wait, where was I.
But I'll never go back to thebeginning and say okay, then
(11:34):
I'll get exhausted and I'llstart to pre-edit and that's.
That's usually not healthy.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
What about first readers?
Is it John?
What about first readers Is?
Speaker 2 (11:43):
it, john.
No, no, I learned that by trialand error.
It's like, no, never expectyour partner or your spouse to
be your fan, your critic, youreditor, any of those things.
So that I thought that's aterrible burden to place on
someone.
I remember, on our very firstdate, I made such a huge mistake
and he was so gracious about it.
(12:04):
I brought him to a play I hadwritten and then it only
occurred to me afterwards oh, no, pressure there.
It was just the cruelest thingto book.
What was he going to say, youknow?
But he was wonderful about it.
But so that, and I?
So?
I learned over the years that no, no, no, no, no, that's not,
(12:24):
that's not his job, and don'tmake him do that.
No, I have a couple of friends,I have my editor, I have a
wonderful agent, esmondHarmsworth, who I can trust.
You know the people who willtell me, however gently, or
maybe a little better than that,that when things aren't right
aren't right, and becausethere's weirdly, I've discovered
(12:45):
also over the years, there's agreat satisfaction in writing
300 pages and then realizing youhave to throw the whole thing
out.
Oh my goodness.
That happens to me more thanonce, but I'm always so grateful
for that reader who will tellme Paul, you know, sit down,
this isn't working, so that Idon't go further with it, so I
don't keep trying to fixsomething that's utterly
(13:07):
impossible.
But yeah, there are a couple ofpeople, and then my wonderful
editor, peter Borland, at Atria,at Simon Schuster, that they
especially because what I loveis when there's a certain
chapter or a section that reallyneeds to go.
But I've a little bit got mywriterly backup because I just I
want everything to be perfectand I think, wait, I can fix it.
(13:29):
I can, you know, I'll make itbetter.
And no, it really just needs tobe cut entirely.
And my agent and other peoplewill keep nudging me and saying
do we need that?
Do we really like that?
You know it always uses theword we the way you would with a
child to make.
So it's like no, we're nottelling you to do this, we're
all on the boat together.
And I eventually, then the day,I call him up and say you know
(13:52):
what?
I cut that whole chapter.
I'm so proud of myself.
They're too smart to say, yeah,we've been telling you to do
that for six months.
So there have been those momentsand once in a while, I even
realize it before I show them myfirst draft, I will cut a
(14:12):
section and feel as if, oh, no,this will be published
separately someday, you know insome sort of memoir or diary,
and it'll be this undiscoveredgem and it's like no, no, it was
just the wrong thing.
Um, but yeah, no, I do.
I so treasure those, thoseearly readers, because you know,
(14:32):
anyone you can fail in front ofis invaluable and also I trust
their, their opinions and theirtastes so completely so I never
feel like, well, they're juststupid.
Of course, my two-year-oldinside me, who thinks you know
anyone who has any editswhatsoever, is just, you know,
(14:54):
ignorant.
But they're not, they're really.
They're much smarter than I amand they are.
They know their jobs, they'rereally good at them and you
realize.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
Well, also your agent Esmond Harmsworth.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Oh the best.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
While I haven't met him in person, in emails he's
such a gentleman, always polite,you know, always returns my
emails and I appreciate histhoughtfulness.
You are so lucky, as is he, forrepresenting you.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Oh, I am.
No, he's the best.
He also has the best name inthe world.
That I mean, I keep thinking Icould not do better than to name
a character, esmond Hemsworth.
But he's just a delight, and heis such.
He's incredibly kind andincredibly tough minded at the
same time, which is what youwant.
That's invaluable.
So that he's you know, and Imentioned to him.
(15:40):
You know, esmond, I get howsweet you're being, but you
don't have to just tell me it'sbad.
Just get out the big red pencil.
But yeah, no, he's just atreasure.
Speaker 1 (15:53):
Okay, back to what is wrong with you.
There's a passage on page 310,where Rob is thinking about Jake
and you write quote Rob decidedthat silliness, or at least
appreciation of love's.
I felt this paragraph was truth.
It spoke of truth and it jumpedout at me as the theme of the
(16:32):
story.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
It is very much so, because the book is an
exploration of every aspect oflove imaginable, which includes
loss, and includes the greatestloss of all, which is when
someone you love dies.
And Rob is wrestling with thatfrom quite a bit of the book and
it was particularly a grimdeath.
But it's something I've learnedover the years.
(16:54):
It's sort of the differencewhen you go to someone's
memorial and everybody's havinga wonderfully good time and you
realize that's not inappropriateor diminishing in any way,
especially if the person whodied was beloved.
You want to remember them attheir best, at their funniest,
at their brightest, at theirmost inspiring, and that it
(17:14):
doesn't lessen the the, the loss, but let remind you of why you
valued this person.
And that's something that robreally has to go through,
because that's not an easy thingto to achieve.
But yeah, I realized and it'ssomething that, because I'm a
helplessly comic writer, Irealized, no, but I want to
(17:36):
delve into the deepest possiblesubjects also because they'll
often be the funniest as well.
But life never falls intocategories.
Nothing is unrelentingly grimor hilariously funny all the
time.
They're always mixed togetherand I found, with people I know
who've experienced the worstlife has to offer, from
battlefields to fatal illnesses,to family abuse.
(18:00):
They often have this balancewheel which is their sense of
humor, and they can shock peoplewith it and I love that.
And I love that trying that inmy books, where you realize, no,
if you could, it's the light atthe end of the tunnel.
You know that, it's the joythat you thought you'd lost
forever.
And that's where Rob arrives.
(18:22):
And the trick, I think, and thechallenge, is to justify that,
because I think we're allterribly jaded and cynical, with
great justification, whichmeans we're very wary of a happy
ending or a moment of pleasure.
So I want the reader to be ableto really buy into it and say,
okay, that I'll go.
(18:45):
You know, I won't feel like afool or a sucker.
And with Rob, because he's aneditor, he's, he's read so many
romances, he's read so manynovels, he knows the tropes I
thought if I can make himgenuinely feel better and
genuinely acknowledge, in a way,a certain structure to his life
, that would be you know what I,what I was after all along.
(19:09):
So it's.
But yeah, I'm so glad you readthat passage, cause yeah, it's,
it's a real summation for him.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
In this novel.
I was taken once again withyour talent for conveying
characters traits via your useof descriptions and dialogue.
There's a description ofTremble Woodspill I love that
name and where you write, quoteshe may have downed a few
Adderall which she consideredmildly enhanced Skittles, end
quote.
In that short sentence thereader immediately gets the gist
(19:38):
of Tremble's personality, whichalso shows through in the name
of her novel Life as we FuckingKnow it.
I'd love to know more aboutTremble and how you came up with
her name.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Oh, yeah, well, tremble Woodsville.
The name came to me in aninstant and I of course had the
immediate reaction of oh my God,that's so over the top.
And then I couldn't get rid ofit.
I thought, no, that's her name,that's the name she wants, and
because she's one of theyoungest characters in the book
she's just in her early 20s andshe's a writer, so I didn't want
to be too precious with her.
You know, often when you readthere's a writer figure in a
(20:11):
novel, you think, oh, that'sgoing to be a stand-in for the
actual author and it's going tobe deeply sensitive.
And, um, you know, this fantasyversion of whoever is is
penning this.
So when I thought, no, no,she's much wilder than that and
I wanted her to be somebody whodidn't immediately leap out at
you as a grad student at thefiction workshop, you know she's
(20:35):
an essayist and she's fromArkansas and she's lived this
very rough life, but she's gotthis wild sense of humor and
sense of herself, and so Iwanted to convey all that, also
because she's you know, she'scome from foster care.
She is surrounded by a lot ofpeople who doubt her on every
level.
(20:56):
You know she's biracial, she'severything that doesn't quite
belong in that small town whereshe grew up, and so she's
written her way out of thatplace.
And I also, I love therelationship between her and Rob
.
You know her 60-year-old gaywhite editor in Manhattan.
You know it's so unlikely, butI found with editors, the best
ones.
(21:16):
They often like to discoverpeople and they like to discover
voices that are very differentfrom their own or their usual
stable.
So Rob, just just, you know,cherishes tremble and when they
meet up it's just such a, youknow, a wonderful epiphany for
both of them.
But tremble, yeah, tremble justappeared, and I also was
interested, because sometimesshe almost could shock me,
(21:38):
because she really is soresilient and so inventive and
she, she will go from, you know,a tugboat to a shipping
container to Times Square.
And yet there's a moment that Ithink is also very central to
her, which the first time shecomes to New York and sees Times
Square, for the first timeshe's never been anywhere
(21:58):
outside her small town.
She's looking at these mobs andthese signs and the noise and
she says, says, this is exactlywhat the inside of my head looks
like yeah, that was such agreat line and I love that, a
moment of identification and howshe manages to place time
square in her experience and youhear, you only get a sample of
(22:18):
her writing, sort of towards theend of the book, which I think
I've experimented with a littlemore, but I thought, no, no,
that's what you want, becauseshe's also this is her first
book.
There actually was a moment whenI was going to call the whole
book Life as we Fucking Know it.
That would present a problem,you know, on the Barnes Noble
bookshelf so, and I think, andthen, once I realized it should
(22:39):
be, what Is Wrong With you, itfelt like oh, that's what it was
meant to be all along, becausepeople say that to me so many
times a day, I say it to so manyother, no, I say it to so many
other people.
Everyone loves saying it outloud when they realize that's
the name of the book.
So it felt, no, that's perfect,because it was especially, I
know, in married couples there'salways that moment where you
(23:03):
stare at the other person andyou go what is wrong with you?
Who are you?
How did I ever marry you?
I always love that and then youcan get past that, but there is
that sense of who is thisdisheveled stranger in my
apartment?
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Yeah, I think in my situation I sometimes add a few
curse words in that sentence.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Oh, of course, of course.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
What I love and enjoy about your writing is that when
I pick up the book, I know I'mgoing to get a giggle and I know
it's going to be easy to readand it's going to uplift me.
And yeah, when she says thatabout Times Square, it was just
a reminder of the stupiditythat's going on around us right
now socially.
I think the juxtapositionbetween Bimble and Isabel yes,
(23:51):
Isabel McNally, the sensitivityassociate.
Let's talk about thissensitivity associate.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
No, I've known so many Isabels, though, and
sometimes they're very wellintended, so I didn't just want
to condemn her, and I think sheends up in a much better place
in the book.
But the thing I find a littlefrightening in the publishing
world and in the arts in generaland in life, are the people who
don't just want absolutepolitical correctness at every
second, but want it enforced.
(24:20):
I always think no.
Everyone is entitled to theiropinion.
You can go online, you can ratethings, you can give them stars
or no stars, but what you'renot allowed to do is to actually
erase someone's work.
You can't censor it.
You can't say this should neverhave been published or this
should be taken off the shelves.
(24:46):
A little of that going on, or alittle more than that in the
world, and it's not related inany way to all of the dei um
chaos that's going on right now.
It's much more about.
It's the point at which theloony left meets the old,
hardcore christian right,because they both want things
only their way.
They don't want any othervoices to be heard, and that
that's scary.
And Isabel, because she's veryyoung and she's welcomed to the
(25:10):
world of publishing at a veryspecific moment when people are
looking for a sensitivity edit.
You know, we've all heard thesestories of books, some of which
have been taken off the shelves, have been before publication
sometimes, and some of them haveactually triumphed over that
sort of, you know, doctrinairefeedback.
(25:32):
But it's really, it's somethingI really wrestled with because I
thought no, no, no, I don't.
I'm thrilled to have a realeditor go over my work and to
have readers respond, but Idon't need a policeman.
You know, you don't wantsomeone who says also because I
can see it in other people'swriting when they're being
overly careful and too cautious,when they're saying I don't
want to offend anyone, and itflattens everything out and
(25:53):
they're polite and you think,okay, I'm not buying this.
All of a sudden, this is toonice.
Yeah, you're writing for theteacher to give you an A and
it's a real danger.
And so Isabel is the sort ofloony version of that where she
just is like a fever in her toremake the world.
(26:13):
And I think you could only havethat sort of passion in a way
when you're very young and youthink you can.
You know where you imagine oh,I can make everything I touch
better and more well-behaved andunite the world and end climate
change this afternoon.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Yeah, and marry a certain guy in the book I can't
give it away oh yes, well,that's what I love is that she.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I think where Isabel sort of falls apart in the most
sort of deliciously frazzled wayis when her libido and her
heart take over.
She's got all these crushes,she's got a love affair that
she's kind of ashamed orembarrassed by and she doesn't
know what to do with them.
And I love taking someone who'sthat confident and that totally
sure of herself and, you know,messing with her Because she has
(27:00):
this vision, which I kind ofrespect in a way, because I love
anyone who's that.
The people I've met in theworld who are the most confident
usually are the most deluded,you know, and sometimes the
least talented.
I once knew a writer who at theend of every working day she
would put the pages she'd beenworking on in the freezer
(27:22):
because supposedly, if yourhouse burns down that will be
the last place to burn, and Ithought I wish I had that
reverence for my work that Iwanted it chilled every morning,
you know, she just had such asense of her place in the world
and she was not a good writerand I thought but I love how,
(27:43):
you know, she'd also clearlycome from wealth, but she, you
know, it's like sometimesthere's been a mommy and daddy
who've never said the word no,and Isabelle's a bit of that,
but it's, but yeah, she's just.
Also, I love the sense of whatsomeone's starting out in the
world, because I remember havingyou know huge chunks of this
(28:03):
where you feel, oh wait, maybeI'm a secret genius, you know,
maybe I really am the Messiah.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
Yeah, until someone says to you hey, what is wrong
with you?
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Completely.
That's what she's never heard.
Or she always thinks that thepeople in her small town or in
her college class or or in inthe larger world are just not as
evolved as she is.
You know, and we've seen thoseit's it's a stance that's very
much encouraged in academia.
You know where people are,they're sort of siloed a little
(28:40):
bit.
They usually have fans.
They really get very, um, youknow, just tyrannical in their
opinions.
And Isabel is, you know, I hopeby the end of the book she's
sort of course, corrected alittle bit because that's not a
good way to be for the rest ofyour life because you're going
to get smacked hard, but by lifeitself and probably by
(29:02):
individuals as well.
Yeah, but she was fun to writejust because she was, so one
track.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
On page 13, we see Isabel through Rob's eyes.
Quote Isabel didn't greet Rob,but then again she never greeted
anybody because, as she'dexplained at her introduction to
the staff, women are too oftenrequired to project a
stereotypical caretaking, falsewarmth, as Rob had noted at the
time.
This would never be a problemwith Isabel, who was somewhere
(29:30):
in her 20s and wore boxyhandwoven tunics and chunky
wood-soled half boots.
Her hair was hennaed andmountainously frizzy daring,
sexist judgment or a comb.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Well, everything about her is a statement and a
challenge to, to the people whoshe meets.
Just how dare you pick at mefor anything?
You know, find any flaw, um,but she's yes.
Well, I think this is somethingthat women have to deal with
far more than men all of themand get their share.
But that sense of oh my god,you're constantly being judged
(30:06):
and you're constantly beingtormented into picking a persona
for the day, let alone awardrobe, that, um, in a
hairstyle, it's that thing ofokay, what will I be attacked
for?
Especially, I mean, it's withanyone young nowadays or even
plenty of old people online aswell where you realize that the
(30:28):
world is your Yelp, that therewill be people out there all too
eager to rip you to shreds, andthat's ooh, it's that scary
when you realize that.
I think that protection ofeither anonymity or just the
Internet lets people become verycruel with each other.
(30:48):
And I think Isabel is a littletoo comfortable with that at
first because of her absurdself-assurance, but yeah, she
really.
She's just basically had waytoo much time at a very liberal
college.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Okay, let's talk about another hilarious
character, and that is Rob'sbest friend, the dentist Paolo
Baumgartner.
There's a great description yougive of him here.
Paolo was fully clothed on theduvet, wearing sunglasses and a
striped dish towel knottedbabushka style on his head.
What would you suggest to newwriters struggling with
(31:26):
character descriptions?
Speaker 2 (31:27):
Oh well, I think I mean some writers sort of pop
out fully formed and I'm alwaysjust in awe.
But there are some where youthink no, you pick your details.
It's like, yes, it's all tooeasy to write 85 pages of
description of one character.
And it's like, no, you probablyneed two sentences of that.
So you just learned it andthat's something I found, at
least for myself.
(31:48):
You only learn from years offailed attempts that you really
figure it out and your brainstarts to tell you you know,
some of it may be that there'sthat mastery algorithm of how
many hours you need to becomebetter at any task when you
start to feel instantly when toshut up, you know when to stop
(32:10):
the sentence.
Although I did love someoneonline.
They were so sweet and theysaid they reviewed actually this
book.
They said there are, I think itwas this book.
They said there are no morecommas in the world because Paul
Rudnick has used all of them.
And then they gave me afive-star review.
So I just adored them and Ithought they're not wrong.
(32:33):
But sometimes I find in eachbook I'll develop a bad habit
that I then have to learn tocurb and then, luckily, my
editor will catch, but theweirdest thing is that it's a
different bad habit each time.
Catch, but the weirdest thingis that it's a different bad
habit each time.
You know.
It's either like descriptionsin group of threes, which you
need to learn to avoid becauseit will become very droning, um,
(32:54):
or too many commas and too manysemicolons, which are just I
think rob refers them asliterary zits where it's just
knock it off, you don't needthat many, and the reader is
going to go insane.
Um, but it's, uh, but I always,yeah, I always like to.
Usually after I'm far too faralong, I'll realize okay, what
(33:15):
was my bad habit this timearound.
Um, but yeah, it's, yeah, it'strue.
I mean, for young writers, Ithink, as in any field, pretty
much, keep doing it.
That is the only way you willlearn.
There are no shortcuts.
And again, don't treat everysyllable as if it were pure gold
(33:35):
, because it's not.
Even if you are faulkner, youknow, or dickens, you have to
learn how to cut, you know, Ialways I'm amazed at people, at
writers although some of themthey're probably absolutely
right who just resist editingand who say not enough, every
word is precious, it's like Iwish, but it's.
Yeah, I mean that would be my.
(33:56):
My real advice to anyone youngis first of all, find people
you're worth listening to anddon't treat yourself as if
you're the king james bible.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
You know you're not well, speaking about grammar,
where do you stand on the m dash?
Speaker 2 (34:14):
oh my god, oh, now you.
Now you really struck suchterror into my heart because
then I had to try to rememberwhat is the m dash and the new
yorker, which I sometimes writefor, just for the first time in,
like you know, 3,000 years,made a minor adjustment in their
house style and when Isometimes will write pieces for
(34:35):
them and they will come backcopy edited with, and it
suddenly turned into, you know,a Jacobean manuscript in written
in, you know know, with thequill pen, and I think, no, no,
I can't, you can't do that, um.
And then it becomes anegotiation.
So I have no position on anyforms of grammar.
(34:55):
I just think, god bless, I hadthe most wonderful copy editor
on um, on what is wrong with you, who was firm but gentle, and
she, just when she would findthings and, you know, just make
suggestions.
She was never like, she wouldn'thumiliate me even though I
deserved it, and I just thought,oh my God, thank God you're
here.
You know the idea that thereare people who have that skill
(35:18):
set and it's that's one of thethings I really worry about and
that that will fall by thewayside, that there are fewer
people who really want to becomeeditors, or that somehow people
will imagine that AI willaccomplish that, and I thought
that's something.
AI can't do you know?
Ai will tell you.
It's like the style function onyour MacBook.
(35:39):
It's often wrong, you know.
It corrects your spelling andyou're like no, no, no, that was
the person's name.
You can't fix that so that youwant that great human insight
and that great sense of someonewho really understands grammar
to that sort of Benjamin Dreyerdegree.
I mean, he's just the master.
(36:00):
I'm just flailing.
When it comes to punctuation, Ijust usually will go through
and say how much can I remove?
You know, because it's just,it's not, it's like sprinkles on
a cookie.
Well, not that I think the morethe better, but it's still just
.
You know, just because you candoesn't mean you should.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
That's excellent advice.
Early in the book you writeabout the commonalities of each
character.
Quote they all owned Tronephones and were all seeking love
in one form or another, butwere helpless to locate that
love or sustain it or evencategorize its nature.
End quote.
How far into the story didTrone Meston appear?
(36:41):
And, without giving anythingaway, did his backstory arrive
first, or the trone phone?
Or did you need this tech guru?
Speaker 2 (36:50):
Yeah, well, I needed an organizing principle.
And also, once I realized thatthe book was that love was so
much the central subject, Ithought, okay, what if you had
someone who thought it could becontrolled, who thought it could
be mastered?
And I thought, okay, that onlya tech guru, with both their
insane amount of scientificknowledge and also their weird
(37:14):
distance from human behavior,would dare to attempt that.
And when I was writing Trone,you know there's that whole set
of gurus from Mark Zuckerberg,peter Thiel, steve Jobs, elon,
of course and it was never basedon any specific one of those,
but I did think it wasfascinating to have a character
who had that much power and thatmuch reach.
(37:36):
You know, that's somethingthat's really completely new in
the world, because you couldcompare those people to a Ford
or an Edison or anyone who had abreakthrough that changed the
way we live.
But those guys are.
I mean, it's been fascinatingto watch them as they've I
wouldn't use the word mature,but as they've grown older, you
(37:57):
know, they've all suddenly nowjust discovered their masculine
energy and that nonsense.
But I want Trone to have thatstrangeness that a lot of those
guys have, which may be anecessity for you to suddenly
create or promote a productthat's never been there before,
because I thought that can be,you know, hugely impressive that
(38:17):
, whatever you think of any oneof those guys, something like
Facebook or Mac or the MacBookor the iPhone, those have
changed the world, you know, inmany ways, and we all have them,
and that's the other thing Iliked about having a character
like that was what he literallyreached it to everyone's pocket.
You know everyone's enthralledto their devices, or at least
(38:40):
finds them necessary.
You know there are.
There are those few hermits whosay I'm offline completely, and
they're always lying.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Yeah, thank you.
I agree with you there.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
No, it's all that.
I know that the snobs willalways tell me and some of them
are my closest friends oh, Inever watched television.
I think you watch television onyour phone.
You still watch television.
You know, watching Max orNetflix is watching television,
even if you're pretending.
Well, it's not abc, it's not.
I love lucy.
I thought, no, you've got a tvon your wrist.
(39:12):
Um, so there it's something.
You know it's, it's inescapable, which is what I liked about it
as a writer.
I thought, no, this guy iseverywhere.
And I thought, with all thealgorithms that are being
invented and with AI and withcoding and everything, I thought
there will you know.
(39:33):
Now there are there already allthe dating apps which pretend
that they can match people,according to you know a very
short list of characteristicsand preferences and photoshop
photos.
But I thought what if you tookthat even further, where you
said I will use all thesevarious physio elements and
really determine an, a ultimatematch for each human being on
(39:57):
earth?
Would that be possible?
And, beyond that, would youwant it?
Because one of the things I loveis the way that love defeats
tech.
You know and it's the ultimatekind of message of the book that
when you try to controlsomething that cannot be
controlled, you know you'regoing to crash and burn,
horribly or interestingly.
(40:17):
But that's why Trone needed tohave the strangeness and the
acumen to attempt that sort oflunacy, to say I will, and that
he also imagines he's doing theworld this enormous goodness and
(40:38):
favor, that he will makeeveryone's lives easier.
It's like the people who tellyou you know, the only way to
really meet the one, the specialperson for you, is when you
stop looking.
That's the meanest thing youcould say, because then the
person goes okay, I'm going tostop looking, which means it's
(40:58):
like negative energy.
How do you stop looking?
And that then?
What if that person doesn'tappear?
What have you done wrong sincethis other guy gave you all this
advice and I think Trone's theultimate version of that of the
person who says I will give youthe answer.
You know, I will give you a.
Well, the other thing we're alllooking for in every area of
our life is a guarantee, a sensethat if you follow these three
(41:24):
you know mottos or bullet pointsyou will achieve whatever you
want.
Three you know mottos, um orbullet points.
You will achieve whatever youwant you know.
It's sort of like remember thesecret, that book that still
around that people.
Now people call it manifesting,but where you think, okay, if
you want that special person, ifyou want that job, if you want
that haircut, if you focus on itit will appear.
(41:46):
And I thought if that were truewe would all be billionaires
with great skin.
You know that it's justnonsense, but I totally
understand that urge, thatdesperate desire for sort of
surety, for some sense of please, dear God, or whomever, let my
(42:11):
life make sense.
And troned, because those guyskind of think of themselves as
you know if I was being kind I'dsay wizards but they think of
themselves as far more godlike,because my husband, john, is a
doctor and he's not like this.
But he has always told me aboutsurgeons and people who really
do think of themselves as havingextraterrestrial powers because
(42:33):
they do wield a certain levelof life and death over the world
.
But, um, I thought that's bothreally impressive and terrifying
anyone who thinks they canchange the human or lasso
somehow the human brain.
And that's one of the things Ilove about the way life actually
(42:56):
works is you can keep trying,you're never going to get there.
You know that we are too weirdas a species and too sort of
deliciously obstreperous andinstinctual.
So if you try and codifyeverything that's you know the
most blind alley of all thatyou're just it's just not going
(43:18):
to happen.
But I love watching trone try,because he's somebody who's
really you know.
He's decidedly odd but verycharismatic in a way too too,
because of his both hisconfidence and his insight into
human nature.
He's not in any way stupid.
So he became very helpful atvarious points in the story
where you thought he was goingto say something absurd or
(43:41):
helpless.
And he says something reallysmart and you realize, oh,
that's how he got there.
You know, that's why he has acorporate empire, that's why
people buy all his stuff,because there is something
slightly magic going on there.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
And you set Trone's personality out early by giving
us the backstory of the chickenstory, where he's trying to
outsmart his siblings and thechickens.
Yes, the final scene in the gymwith Rob and Sean is gorgeous.
I mean, I love the finalparagraph with the woman sitting
on the mat staring at them andTremble's book title tying up
(44:23):
everything.
Was this always the ending, ordid you write multiple endings
before arriving at thatparticular ending?
I think I did.
Speaker 2 (44:32):
I kept expanding the ending because I kept thinking,
okay, where does the book wantto end?
You really have to listen toyour work then to see.
You know how tidy does it wantto be or how unruly or how
abrupt.
You know, there's always thatsoprano sending where it just
stops, um.
But with this I thought I knewthat rob and sean were the um
(44:54):
core of the book and I knew thatI wanted to, and they both
experienced different forms ofloss, but they were, both had
had reached a kind of newplateau in their lives, but that
was satisfactory and not, butthat they understood each other
and that it was their friendshipthat would sort of get them
through.
So I knew I wanted it to bethat their version of a, their
(45:16):
sort of nutty version of anepiphany, um, and the fact that
because I love that the woman,there's a stranger who's
listening to them, who can'tdecide if they're like exes or
current boyfriends, or flirtingor getting straight.
They, just because everythingthey says takes you somewhere
else.
But that's what I love aboutthem and that it's.
You know, I think it's alwaysour friends are what will get us
(45:38):
through that.
They, they're what we reallyrely on, especially when our
lovers are vanishing or dying ordivorcing us.
Your friends are what you comeback to and I love how unlikely
that friendship is.
You know that it's this editorand this guy who's both a very
high-powered gym owner andpersonal trainer, who is also a
(46:01):
TV star superhero for a certainpart of his life.
You know it's just nuts, butthe thing is, I know people
who've been in both those placesin their lives and I adore them
.
And it's, yeah, it's also oneof the great joys that I think
of living in New York City isthat you're forced into contact
(46:22):
with every sort of person everyday.
You know it's not just yourneighbors on your block in your
often delightful small town.
It's people who you havenothing in common with, or you
think you don't, people who youimmediately are very suspicious
of, who end up being yourclosest friends and who would
entertain you endlessly and whogive you shockingly helpful
(46:47):
advice.
And that's what those two guysare for each other.
Um, but yeah, I knew and I knewwe needed to check in with
everybody, which we do by theend.
You want it to be satisfying,you don't, and you want to honor
everyone because hopefully, thethe readers have invested in
these people, and so we.
We do travel from one person tothe next, which I love.
By that point in the book, ifit's cooking, you get the.
(47:11):
You know that the reader willfollow you and that you don't
have to do enormous amounts ofdescription.
At that point it's like youknow you're.
It's like quick cuts in a moviewhere it's like, okay, here we
are in a private jet, here weare in an apartment building,
but Robin and and Sean justthere's a devotion there that I
really cherish.
Speaker 1 (47:29):
Yeah, their relationship is precious.
Okay, I want to ask you aboutone more thing.
In the book, early on in thestory, we discover that the
publishing company where Robworks has been sold to corporate
overlord Trone Meston.
And you write, quote thearchitect for the new premises
is Finnish and had told the NewYork Times quote I hate
prominent entrances or visiblestreet numbers.
(47:51):
Instead of shouting, I want mywork to whisper and shrug.
End quote I love those lasteight words and the way it adds
to Rob's character.
And in circling back tosomething you were talking about
earlier, if we're all reallyhonest with ourselves, there are
fragments of all of us withinthe characters of this book and,
(48:13):
honestly, sometimes I wasblushing.
I thought, oh my God, Iremember doing or saying that.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
Oh, I'm so glad you said that, because that's how I
fall in love with all mycharacters that I think a writer
has to Even the ones who arevery wayward or close to evil.
You really have to embrace themall and find parts of yourself
in them.
No well, that bit also camefrom the gym I go to in Chelsea
in New York, the Chelsea Piers,and it's in what's called the
(48:40):
Starcitect area, where there areall of these enormous buildings
designed by the most highlypaid, respected, trendiest
architects.
So they're all wildly different, which I love visually, but
it's also, you know, chaos, andyou look at some of these places
and you think what were theyafter and who were they trying
(49:01):
to impress, sometimes by makingthe buildings as unpleasant as
possible, or is it's that thingof where you can't find the
front door, you know, when yougo, okay, I get, I get why.
That's where you'd say oh no,I'm over front doors, I'm bored
with front doors, you know, andespecially if you're a stranger
and you're trying to find astreet number, you go.
(49:23):
You know that would be helpful.
Well, and it was.
I was in an office in one ofthose buildings and they look
gorgeous from the outside.
They're so interesting becausethey always look like children
made them from crayon drawingsor blocks and um, but it had
which occurs in the book thissnake-like day.
It was a big open office,because that's the most current
(49:48):
form for workplaces.
It was no walls, no cubicles,no doors, nothing.
It's all open because that wayyou'll all interact and
everything will bubble up andyou'll have a lot of beanbag
chairs and it's like the Googleoffices are like that, which are
in that area.
And this was this windingplywood desk that went on for
(50:10):
like 50 feet or more andeverybody was sort of had their
own little corner of it and Ithought if I had to work here I
would cut my throat.
I thought there's no privacy.
You're also always weirdlycatching glimpses of the other
person when they're nodding offor, you know, watching porn on
their phone and I thought whoseidea was this?
(50:31):
Nobody likes it, even the youknow 22 year olds that it's, and
I thought this will go away andthey already know.
You could see in a lot of theseworkplaces walls are going back
up at least half walls.
People like their space andthey like to be protected and
they like to put their littlebobble heads along the edge.
So it's, but for a while thereand still ongoing that there's
(50:55):
that sense of oh no, we're all abig communal family, even
though some of us, and we'll allgive ourselves titles that
somehow sound non-hierarchical,like, you know, you're the
deputy associate, junior,quasi-executive, whatever, and I
thought, no, you're a secretary.
You know you're going to getthe coffee, no matter what your
(51:15):
title says.
So it's, but it's fun to watch.
Especially, it reminds me ofone of the great things about
being a writer is you don't haveto go to work every day in one
of those places, and so my heartgoes out to the people who, you
know, really have to show upand go.
Oh my God, that's why they allhave snack bars, because that's
the only part people really like.
(51:36):
It's like I can get through myday.
Speaker 1 (51:39):
And how does one cope with all of the noise, the
chatter and the tapping of akeyboard?
And, oh my God, I can'tconcentrate in that kind of
situation.
Speaker 2 (51:48):
Oh yeah in that sense that I mean I understand the
value of listening to lots ofopinions, but not constantly and
not in that sense of, you know,a clubhouse.
It's like there's a certainsort of sense in a workplace
there should be people who arereally good at what they're
doing and good at differentthings, and therefore not always
(52:11):
having to sit there and stareat each other.
But it's also why, I think,during COVID, people started
which the big secret is peoplebecame incredibly productive
(52:33):
when they worked at home, whichevery writer knows, because you,
of course, you can be veryproductive and also have a lot
of snacks, you know, and sit onyour couch but in your sweat.
Speaker 1 (52:44):
Yeah, with a cat or a dog beside you.
Paul, when I was reading thisbook, I saw it as a play.
I just was thinking, oh mygoodness, I feel like I'm
sitting on the stage watchingthis as a play.
Do you have any thoughts aboutthat?
Speaker 2 (52:58):
Really, oh, that's so interesting.
Well, no, because one of thereasons why I've so embraced
fiction as of late is because Ilove the freedom and the sense
that if you're going to takepeople to wildly different
locations on stage, there arehuge technical problems there.
You have to.
How much scenery do we need?
What do we?
What one piece of what, onechair or table will tell the
(53:22):
story, and how much doubling doyou need if you don't want to
hire 83 actors?
But in a novel, if you want togo to the cocktails at the
Eiffel Tower, you're there, youknow, and you're.
Also you're not tormenting theother people and the producers
into giving you a hand.
So it's funny.
(53:44):
I mean, I find that my work asa playwright helped me
enormously in terms of dialogueand shaping a scene and knowing,
ok, get into this scene as it'swell underway.
Don't sort of start always fromzero, because then there's
going to be a lot of dead air.
Um, but so yeah, I mean that'sit.
(54:06):
Started with Farrell Covingtonwhere I realized, okay, whatever
skills I've developed over thecourse of a career, I'm using
all of them now, fromplaywriting and screen write a
play.
(54:29):
Plays are are technical beyondbelief, which I realized the
sort of mathematics of it.
But it's very tough and cansometimes I found it very
constraining after a whilebecause, especially if you're
writing comedy, you want to getthat laugh from the audience and
you want to get out of it fasttoo.
You want to have you get peopleon and off stage.
(54:49):
That's, if you ask any writer.
That can be the trickiest thingof all.
And lately I've seen even somewonderful plays that are all set
in living rooms in parlors witha big spiral staircase and
everybody's always finding areason to go off stage into the
kitchen or the bathroom, orthey're folding a throw on the
couch to give themselvessomething to do, or they're
(55:11):
plumping a pillow, or they'rebringing a dish of whatever to
the sideboard in ways that noone would ever do.
But when you work in thetheater you realize you got to
keep things active.
You know you got to give theactors something to do so they
don't just stand there and youknow jabber at you all the time.
(55:35):
But so that when I write playsI love that challenge.
But I also love writing bookswhere that's not an issue.
Speaker 1 (55:37):
There's something you spoke about in our last
interview for the podcast andit's to do with your friend, the
costume designer.
Speaker 2 (55:45):
Oh, william, I Belong .
Speaker 1 (55:46):
Yes, well, I was thinking about him while I was
watching a show the other night.
It's called Everybody's Live inLA, I think it's what it's
called.
It's John Mulaney's kind oflate night show, which is
totally wacky, and I love itBecause he did this one scene
where he had a whole lot ofpeople in a small room who had
(56:07):
played the lead in Death of aSalesman and they all had a
suitcase with them.
And I suddenly remembered youtelling me about I can't
remember which show it was, butit was one that William designed
and it had a suitcase in it.
Someone was carrying a suitcaseand it was a period piece and
he put props and clothing piece.
(56:31):
And he put props and clothing,everything he could think of in
that suitcase that had to dowith that period and it was to
help put the actress or actor inthat right frame of mind.
And I just thought that wasgreat.
Well, john Mulaney askedeverybody you know, what did you
put in your suitcases?
And someone said, oh, nothing.
Another one said rocks, I think.
But it was so interesting thatthat came back to me and now I'm
(56:52):
thinking about it.
It is easier to do in a novel.
Speaker 2 (56:54):
Yes, oh yeah.
Also because, unlike web, dead,screenwriting and screenwriting
is a little crazy because ofthe economics involved.
I remember when I was writing ascript for one of the Addams
Family movies and you write twosentences of description saying
Gomez and Morticia go to adecaying French restaurant.
And then I remember, then, afew months later, I went to a
(57:17):
soundstage in Los Angeles wherethey had spent hundreds of
thousands of dollars building adecaying French restaurant,
which was gorgeous, you know,with these wonderful actors, but
I I was had a heart attack.
I thought maybe we should havesent some kids to college with
this money.
You know, it was still thatsense of you have.
(57:38):
You know, there can be enormousamounts of money and skill and
design at your disposal, butthat's a little daunting.
And in a book, again, you cancreate the most sumptuous luxury
, the most, the rainforest, thepyramids, whatever you're after,
with a few words, and so it'syeah, and you just feel a little
(58:01):
less guilty as a capitalist.
You know when you're reallygoing for a certain lifestyle.
But yet no, william ivy, that,like the costume designer, he
was one of my best teachersbecause he taught me about
detail and about really lookingat everything about a character,
and not just what they'rewearing, but their attitude,
(58:22):
their posture, their economicstatus, all that stuff which he
is always so aware of, and theamount of research he does you
know, for any, for anyhistorical thing, but anything.
And these mood boards he createsand I thought, god he's, he's
writing his own novel yeah, Iwould love to meet him.
Oh, he's the best just knowinghe, yeah, also.
(58:44):
It's just wonderful because youget to see the result.
You know when I would go andsee the shows that he had
designed.
And he also designed a lot ofbig musicals and won many Tony
Awards, like the originalproduction of Nine and the
original production of Chicagono, the big revival of Chicago
that's run for 40 years, and Isee his genius and I see how he
(59:05):
also makes performers feel goodand he knows the human body and
he knows how to make someonesexy who never thought they were
sexy.
And you know he's a therapist inthat way too.
So it's, it's just an amazingskill set and it all.
Again, it was something youknow.
He studied French history atcollege.
(59:27):
He really has a craft toeverything he does, but and he's
crazy which is helpful too, youknow because he's like everyone
who's, you know, aperfectionist where everything
does have to be perfect and youdye things and you sew sequins
on and you do all that and youhave a staff and it's like, oh
my God, this is a, you know, alittle nation state in itself.
Speaker 1 (59:52):
Yes, he's an extraordinary creative.
Okay, let's talk about books.
Have you read anythingfantastic lately?
Oh yeah, I mean I've read tons.
Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
It's the Alan Hollinghurst book that was Our
Evenings is just magnificent.
I mean, I'm a huge fan of hisin general.
I have I haven't not read ityet um, stag dance, the new book
by tory peters who wrotedetransition baby, which I just
adored, um, I think she's thereal thing, I.
What else have I read that?
(01:00:21):
This is the trouble is,whenever anyone asks me what
I've read or seen, or let alonefor what are the five favorite
things, my mind immediately goesblank.
But you know, oh, I love LongIsland Compromise by Taffy
Brodesser-Ackner, which was fromsort of last year, but it was
just an extraordinary novel.
Um, all Fours by Miranda Julyis wonderful.
(01:00:42):
Um, you know, these are booksthat have been been wildly
successful as well, but thereare so many good writers out
there, I hate all of them.
No, I don't.
No, actually, I find that's theone thing I'm never jealous of.
I'm always so grateful when Iread something wonderful and
(01:01:04):
there's a little part of mybrain that is always going how
did they manage this?
And then you realize why wastetime being jealous?
You're never going to be them.
That's.
Their secret is that they havetheir own.
Um, you, know madness and andtalent, um, but I love it when
you realize, oh, my god, you'vereally done the impossible.
You've written a wonderful book.
That's so.
(01:01:24):
It is so, only that, only youcould have written.
So that, yeah, becausesometimes when I explore certain
other bestsellers where Ifigure out, okay, why is this
book, you know, been selling sowell for 15 years?
And I get it and it's great.
Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
But I thought I'm not going to read 15 volumes of
anything you know, yeah, youknow, I get books sent to me
every single day, from the bigfive to imprints, to small and
medium presses.
And I'll get this big stack andI'll start looking at it and
I'll think, okay, now, which onedo I need to read first, in
order, you know, of publicationand everything.
And I'll pick one up and I'llread, you know the first
(01:02:04):
paragraph, and I'll start tothink I don't know, do I want to
keep reading this?
Maybe I'll read, you know, thefirst paragraph and I'll start
to think I don't know, do I wantto keep reading this?
Maybe I'll give it a chapter,maybe I'll give it two or three
chapters, but I would say, outof the 10 books and this is kind
of being hopeful I would saythree make the cut.
Speaker 2 (01:02:19):
Well, and that's very generous.
Speaker 1 (01:02:21):
Yeah, it kind of is, isn't it?
But you know, the questions Iask myself are these am I going
to recommend this book Becausethat's important to me?
I don't like putting books down, but I love talking about books
that I love.
So if I don't like them, Idon't talk about them.
That's just the way I seethings.
And the other thing is do Iwant to give six to eight hours
(01:02:43):
of my life to read this book?
But taste is subjective, andthat's a good thing, because the
books that I may not like ordon't think are for my audience.
Someone else is just going toadore them, and that's great.
I'm not much of a romancereader, but I do love a good
romance, you know.
I hope that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (01:03:02):
No, and I read them because I'm curious about what
are other people finding soaddictive, although there is one
book right now which I will notname it's a huge bestseller
literary fiction where I havetried to read it for the past
like eight months.
I will read three chapters andthen my eyes just refuse to
(01:03:25):
focus on the page.
I will then go read an entireother book that I actually enjoy
and then come back to it andsay I'm going to conquer this
like it's my everest, and latelyI've been thinking you know,
paul, maybe this just isn't thebook for you and you know what,
paul, that's okay it is, and youthink clearly the author has a
(01:03:46):
huge devoted fandom.
They just need me.
But it really was.
It became like my ultimate taskis if I was going to run into
her and I've never met thiswriter, and she'd say, well,
what did you think of Chapter 83?
And I was like, no, no, no,paul, you are allowed to stop
reading.
Also, I've already bought thebook, I've contributed to her
(01:04:09):
coffers, but I've always beenastonished that it really became
this strange sort of likemonastic self-punishment where
it was if you don't read twomore chapters, you are a bad
human being.
Speaker 1 (01:04:24):
Oh, I get it, I call it reader's guilt.
Are a bad human being.
Oh, I get it, I call itreader's guilt.
Yeah, now, I'm a pretty bigrereader.
I do have about probably eightto 10 books that I have reread
and reread.
One of them is your book,gorgeous.
That got me through thepandemic.
It gave me hope.
It just uplifted me, and youknow I love fashion.
(01:04:47):
It was great.
Are you a rereader?
Speaker 2 (01:04:50):
Once in a while I try not to both, because I'm always
sort of greedy for somethingnew and because I don't want to
sort of tinker with my memories.
It's why I won't go see moviesor plays more than once, because
I love them so much that Ithink, oh, I never want to get
bored with this.
I never want to suddenly seethe flaws, I just want to sort
(01:05:11):
of burnish how much I what thegreat time I had.
So, yeah, but once in a while Iwill go back to something, fall
into it and realize this is thebest you know and I, and once
in a while I'll when I've readsomething really awful, and once
in a while when I've readsomething really awful this is
terrible to say where it's justunspeakable and often acclaimed.
(01:05:32):
I will go back and readsomeone's book that I adored,
like remember Ann Patchett's theDutch House, which I just
thought was one of the bestbooks ever.
I'll go back and read a fewchapters to remember oh, there's
such a thing as good writing,because the bad book obliterated
that option.
I, no one has ever written agood book.
(01:05:52):
It's it's don't even try.
And then you go read somethingthat you loved and you realize,
oh no, no, this is, this is aworthy pursuit.
Speaker 1 (01:06:01):
Paul, I'm probably keeping you way too long.
I just thoroughly enjoychatting with you.
Speaker 2 (01:06:06):
Oh, I love it.
No, thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
I love your new novel what Is Wrong With you?
And it's published in a coupleof days, right yeah, march 25th.
I wish you all the best with it.
And listeners, go and get thisbook.
It is going to make you laugh.
It's just hysterical.
Speaker 2 (01:06:21):
Thank you.
Thanks so much for having me.
This has been a joy.
Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
You've been listening to my conversation with author
Paul Rudnick about his new bookwhat Is Wrong With you.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media, and remember to
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
(01:06:46):
thebookshoppodcastcom and makesure to subscribe and leave a
review wherever you listen tothe show.
You can also follow me at MandyJackson Beverly on X, instagram
and Facebook and on YouTube atthe Bookshop Podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
(01:07:08):
the contact form atthebookshoppodcastcom.
The Bookshop Podcast is writtenand produced by me, mandy
Jackson-Beverly, theme musicprovided by Brian Beverly,
executive assistant to Mandy,adrian Ohtohan, and graphic
design by Frances Perala.
Thanks for listening and I'llsee you next time.
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