May 19, 2025 • 37 mins
What happens behind the scenes before a book reaches your hands? John Warren pulls back the curtain on modern publishing in this fascinating conversation that travels from his unexpected entry into the industry to where books are headed in our AI-driven future.
Warren's publishing journey began in 1992 when a Mexican publisher hired him to research the US market for Spanish-language books. Three decades later, he's directing the Graduate Program in Publishing at George Washington University, preparing the next generation of publishing professionals with practical, hands-on skills across all aspects of the industry. His approach challenges the traditional "siloed" nature of publishing expertise, producing well-rounded graduates equipped to navigate an evolving landscape.
The conversation takes an illuminating turn when Warren describes metadata as "the DNA of publishing." This largely invisible aspect determines whether readers ever discover your book among millions of others. Warren explains how metadata extends far beyond basic information like title and author to include elements that significantly impact discoverability and sales. For authors and publishers alike, understanding this digital lifeblood has become essential.
Looking toward the future, Warren shares thought-provoking predictions about how AI might transform books themselves—creating dynamic reading experiences where information, images, and even audio narration can be generated on demand. These possibilities exist alongside the vital role of small and medium presses, which Warren celebrates for their risk-taking on diverse voices and translated works.
The discussion also explores how print-on-demand technology and international publishing partnerships are reshaping distribution, breaking down geographical barriers while supporting environmental sustainability. Warren's perspective as both a publishing veteran and classical guitarist offers a uniquely human view of an industry undergoing technological revolution.
Want to understand the invisible forces shaping what you read? This episode provides essential insights for authors, publishers, and curious book lovers alike. Subscribe to The Bookshop Podcast for more conversations with the people who bring books to life.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a
bibliophile.
Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
Each week, I present interviewswith authors, independent
bookshop owners and booksellersfrom around the globe and
publishing professionals.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
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(00:33):
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
You're listening to Episode 291.
I have a few upcoming events I'dlike to share with you.
On Friday, May 23rd, I'm inconversation with Chef Linda
(00:53):
Shui at the California Clubdowntown Los Angeles.
For more information, you canemail me at thebookshoppodcast
at gmailcom.
On Thursday, June 12th, authorhall kelly and I will be in
conversation at the lunch withan author literary series at the
santa barbara club in santabarbara, california.
Martha's latest novel, themartha's vineyard beach and book
(01:16):
club, is a treasure.
You can purchase your ticketsat wwwmandyjacksonbeverlycom.
Forward slash events.
On Tuesday, June 3rd 2025, theLos Angeles World Affairs
Council and Town Hall presentsRIP the Rules-Based
International Order, featuringTrita Parsi, Executive Vice
(01:38):
President of the QuincyInstitute.
Parsi will examine the futureof global governments, the
evolving role of the UN andmultilateral institutions, and
how rising powers in the globalSouth are reshaping the
international landscape.
The discussion will alsoexplore how the international
community can tackle urgenttransnational challenges, from
(02:00):
climate change to economicinequality, through more
inclusive and equitablecollaboration.
For more information, go tolawacthorg and I'll place the
link to this event in the shownotes and hopefully I'll see you
there.
Okay, let's get on with thisweek's interview.
John Warren has more than 25years of senior management
(02:23):
experience in publishing, havingled groundbreaking initiatives
in digital content developmentand distribution, including
e-books, short-form digitalcontent, enhanced e-books and
websites, open access journalsand open educational resources.
Previously, he served as thedirector of the George Mason
(02:43):
University Press and MasonPublishing Group.
Prior to his work at GeorgeMason, Warren served as the
marketing and sales director forthe Georgetown University Press
, marketing director forpublications at the RAND
Corporation and marketingmanager for Fondo de Cultura
Economica.
Hi, John, and welcome to theshow.
It's lovely to have you here.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Thanks, mandy, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
You're welcome Now.
You graduated just up the roadfrom me from the University of
California, santa Barbara, witha BA in Spanish and Portuguese,
which you speak and writefluently, and then you went on
to gain your Master's inInternational Management Latin
America, from the University ofCalifornia San Diego School of
Global Policy and Strategy.
You also have a deep love ofmusic and are a classical
(03:29):
guitarist, composer andperformer.
When did your interest inpublishing arise?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Well, I guess interest.
You know, like a lot of people,I've always loved books, you
know, since I was a kid.
I remember, you know, going tothe library and taking stacks of
books and the librarian wouldsay, oh, this is enough for the
whole summer, and I was like no,this is for a week.
But I never imagined working inpublishing and I so.
(03:54):
As you said, I graduated fromUC San Diego, from my master's
degree in internationalmanagement management, and I was
doing work with companiesacross the border, helping small
and medium-sized companies sellthings in Mexico and Argentina
and Brazil, and a little bithelping companies in Mexico
(04:18):
export to the US.
And a large Mexican publishercalled Fondo de Cultura
Economica hired me back in 1992to do some research on the US
market for books in Spanish.
So these weren't like textbooks, how to learn Spanish, they
were novels, nonfiction,children's books in Spanish.
(04:42):
And this Mexican publisher itwas kind of like a university
press but owned by the Mexicangovernment they hired me to do
this project, looking at themarket for books in Spanish, and
I delivered the project andthen they they essentially hired
me to to start doing that and,you know, getting into the?
(05:02):
U the US market with with booksfrom Mexico, and so that kind
of got me going and it was.
It was an interesting time tobe in publishing and and to be
in the Spanish language marketbecause that was really growing.
And so as, even though I wasnew in publishing, I was able to
, like, speak at Book ExpoAmerica in my first year and
(05:23):
things like that- what year wasthis?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
92.
So did you mostly do Spanish toEnglish or English to Spanish
translations.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
No, it didn't really have much to do with translation
.
There were books in Spanishbasically exported from Mexico
to US.
You probably remember Borderswas emerging at that time.
I first contacted them whenthey had only 10 stores and they
had a buyer from Argentina whowas interested in setting up a
(05:57):
Spanish language section inevery Borders store and I
remember him saying oh you know,we're really growing, and they
were.
They were growing massively andI worked with Borders to kind
of organize an entire section.
I also worked with a lot ofuniversity bookstores to do that
(06:17):
too, and we would recommend ourtitles but also other titles in
Spanish.
We would recommend our titlesbut also other titles in Spanish
.
And you know, as you know,there's many.
I mean, even back in 92, therewere, I think, 35 million
Spanish speaking people in theUS.
That being said, it's not justone market.
(06:38):
You know, there's people fromMexico, people from Peru, people
from Cuba, people from PuertoRico.
The same language but different.
You know, different culturesand different identities and
different authors.
But yeah, we had a lot of, like, nobel Prize winning authors
like Carlos Fuentes and RosarioCastellano and Octavio Paz and
people like that.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
And now you are the Director and Associate Professor
Graduate Program in Publishingat the George Washington
University.
What hands-on skills does astudent have after graduating
from this publishing program?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well, I think you know part of it.
We're really giving peopleskills in publishing, but also
things like leadership skills,managerial skills, and they're
learning from professionals whowork in publishing, who have
long time experience.
I myself have been working inpublishing for 32 years.
I still consider myselfprimarily a publisher.
(07:34):
We have people like Dean Smith,who's the director of Duke
University Press, greg Britton,who's the editorial director at
Johns Hopkins University Press,pooja Telakacharla, who's the
licensing director at AmericanPsychiatric.
(07:54):
So students are learning fromprofessionals.
And you're right, these days wehave Google, we have AI.
You can learn a lot on your own, but I think there's still a
lot of value of learning fromprofessionals with deep
experience and what we reallyemphasize is practical
experience.
So students are doing projectsthat mirror what they would do
in the workplace as a, as aneditorial assistant, as a
(08:16):
marketing assistant.
What I usually hear fromemployers is how well-rounded
our students are.
So in publishing, as youprobably know, you know people
often have deep expertise in onearea, like like.
I listened to your yourinterview with Andy Hughes, for
example, and you know he.
(08:36):
He knows production.
Of course, he knows a lot ofdifferent things.
He was, he was in publishingfor decades.
But often people are, you knowwhat you call like silo.
They have, like you know, theyknow everything about production
, but they don't necessarilyknow marketing and we really try
to have students you know knowthe editorial side, acquisitions
(08:58):
, business and management,marketing, things like
accessibility technology, sothey come out of the program
with a really wide knowledge anda really deep knowledge.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
And do most of them go off to work within publishing
companies Most?
Speaker 2 (09:16):
of them do.
You know, publishing is verybroad, as you know.
So I think the typical student,many of our students, like
their dream is to go work intrade publishing, maybe as a YA
editor, and some of them do gointo trade publishing.
We have students at Sourcebooks, at Penguin, random House, at
(09:38):
Simon Schuster, and when theycome into the program they don't
really know about publishing.
At, say, like associations andsocieties, like American
Chemical Society or AAAS orAmerican Psychological
Association have huge publishingoperations and many jobs,
(09:59):
stable jobs, places like SagePublishing or Wiley, and so
these are not necessarily onstudents' radar.
And then the other thing isit's not all about editorial.
Most people kind of know whatan editor does, but they don't
necessarily think of a job likeAndy Hughes in production.
That's not on people's radar.
(10:20):
But you can have a great careerin production or in rights and
permissions for example, thingslike that.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
You mentioned my conversation with Andy Hughes,
who's the recently retiredSenior VP and Director of
Production Design at KnopfDoubleday Publishing Group, and
Andy spoke in depth about thepublishing process, the
complexities of mergingcorporate cultures and computer
systems, and he gave a behindthe scenes look at the
challenges of implementing newsystems across Knopf's imprints.
(10:51):
And you're right, that's justone section of publishing, but I
recommend anyone who islistening to our conversation
today to go back and listen tomy conversation with Andy and
I'll make sure to put that linkin the show notes.
And, as you said, publishing ismuch, much more than editing,
marketing and publicitydepartments.
(11:12):
Now, how do you see the futureof libraries in the United
States?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Well, I think libraries, libraries are always
evolving.
Libraries, you know, of course,libraries is also a diverse
market.
You have academic libraries,you have corporate libraries.
You know, of course, librariesis also a diverse market.
You have academic libraries,you have corporate libraries,
you have public libraries.
One of the areas I've beeninvolved with is on the academic
side.
Many libraries have gotten intopublishing, so there's a whole
(11:39):
library publishing coalition.
Libraries are not necessarilyknown as publishers, but many of
them do.
And you know, libraries arealways about providing service
and values to their communitiesand I think, whether it's a
public library or an academiclibrary or a corporate library,
(12:00):
that's what they're focused onis serving their communities.
And I think publishers oftenhave the frame of mind that
libraries are hurting salesbecause they, you know, offer
books to free you know, for freeto people.
I don't see it that way.
Really essential part of thepublishing landscape and indeed
(12:23):
of our cultural and educationlandscape, and really add a lot
of values and for everybody thatyou know checks out a book for
free, you know you're stillconsuming knowledge and many
people will go out and buy thebook or recommend it to people
and I think that if you're apublisher, the worst thing is
(12:46):
that people are ignoring yourbooks or not knowing about your
books.
So I think libraries areessential.
I'm very troubled.
Just the other day I read thatthe administration is cutting
back on funds to libraries.
Specifically the Institute forMuseum and Library Science is
(13:10):
cutting back, and you knowthere's a lot of cutbacks and
you know they want to dismantlethe whole Department of
Education, for that matter.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yeah, and I think if we go down that rabbit hole we
shall never get out.
It is a scary time foreducation, specifically
libraries and book banning inthe United States.
Down that rabbit hole we shallnever get out.
It is a scary time foreducation, specifically,
libraries and book banning inthe United States, something I
think is important, and maybefor more self-published authors,
which is such an oxymoron, thatword self-publishing, because
it takes a team to publish abook.
When you are self-publishing,you can go wide, or 30 days, or
(13:43):
30 or 90 days.
Maybe you check that little boxon Amazon which means you
signed a contract saying thatyou cannot have your ebook on
any other ebook platform forthose 90 days.
But if you go what is calledwide, that gives you access to
putting your ebook intolibraries and I think this is
really exciting.
It is it is.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
I remember I was in the very early days of eBooks.
I was one of the first peopleto do eBooks and that was one of
the areas that was very early.
I remember a company calledNetLibrary.
There was eBrary, there wasquite a few companies and some
of those are still around, likeOverdrive, for example.
(14:24):
They started back then.
This was in the late 90s, early2000s, before the Kindle event,
and, like my wife reads most ofher books checked out, you know
, electronically from thelibrary.
I'm kind of old, like I'm verytechnologically, you know, savvy
(14:44):
, but I still like reading, youknow, print books.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Oh, I'm with you there, john.
I remember when Kindle firstcame out, I tried it for about I
don't know, 12 or 18 months,and after that time I just went.
What am I doing?
I don't like reading like this,so I went back to hard copy and
paperbacks, let alone readingon a phone.
I cannot imagine doing that atall.
So the reason I carry quite alarge purse around is because
(15:10):
it's always got a book in it.
I would like to learn moreabout metadata.
What is the importance ofmetadata in publishing and what
is it?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Sure, one of my jokes is metadata is my hobby and
metadata is an almost invisiblepart of publishing.
But it really is what I'vecalled the lifeblood of
publishing.
And I think today, in thedigital age especially when I
started in publishing 1992,metadata didn't really exist.
(15:43):
It was emerging.
But metadata let's define itit's data about data, so it was
originally a computer term.
But when we talk about bookmetadata, we're talking about
all the aspects of the book.
So you know who's the author,what's the title, what's the
author, what's the title, what'sthe ISBN, what's the price, but
(16:04):
also things like the coverimage, the cover description,
blurbs, you know the author, bio, and then you know Meta Day is
almost endless.
You know metadata is almostendless.
It can include things like apodcast about the book,
interview with the author,awards that the book has won or
(16:26):
the author has won, so it'salmost endless.
One thing I was just talkingabout this yesterday with Todd
McElroy, who you should have onyour show too.
He's also an expert on metadata.
And you know most publishers.
I think they still todayundervalue and underutilize
(16:46):
metadata.
It's certainly a part of everypublisher's operation, but in
some ways I think manypublishers do kind of the
minimum in terms of metadata and, as I say, it's almost endless.
I read an article about itseveral years ago.
It's like a universe and it'salso kind of DNA.
(17:07):
It's like the really finepoints.
But it's also the big pictureand one thing that Dad used as
an example.
He published a book recentlyabout AI and publishing and he
has the whole book availableonline.
(17:27):
And, you know, hopefully peoplewill buy the book in print or
as an ebook, but the books allavailable and so that whole book
is now metadata.
So you know the content ismetadata and I think again that
you know we could go on and onabout metadata is probably bored
much of your audience, but it's, it's all you know.
(17:50):
It's everything to do with thebook.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Okay, metadata is like the DNA of a book.
So once you've uploaded yourbooks to the multiple platforms,
how do you go about finding thespecific threads that are
important to list with your book?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Well, a lot of it's kind ofinvisible to the consumer, but
it's definitely in platforms.
So things like keywords, forexample, using keywords.
So things like keywords, forexample, using keywords.
So things that are beyond, say,the title.
So a book I read recently thatPrinceton University Press
(18:29):
published I don't know if you'veseen this, but it's called Love
at the Time of Self-Publishinghow Romance Writers Change the
Rules of Writing and Success.
And you know, I personallydon't read a lot of romance
genre.
But this book isn't so muchabout the genre as, like, the
community of romance authors,and so an example would be, you
(18:52):
know, even though it's not inthe title or the subtitle,
things like Romance WritersAssociation would be a good
keyword for this book and, youknow, maybe Romanticy or
something like that.
So there's a lot of keywordsthat you could use for finding
this book.
That wouldn't necessarily be,you know, in the book
(19:15):
description or in the title orsubtitle.
There's also parts of metadatathat might be involved, like
licensing rights, like what youknow what licensing or what
translation rights are availablecould be part of the metadata
as well.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
And with keywords.
Are you better to use a singleword, like you suggested
romanticize or would it bebetter to use the words romantic
fiction?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
it could be both, yeah, I think, kind of phrases
up to maybe five words.
You know phrases five words andand you can have like many
keywords.
I think usually you want tokind of prioritize, um, maybe
like the top five, but you couldadd several different keywords.
And you know it's kind of partof search option optimization
(20:11):
search engine optimization andmetadata kind of can go along
together.
So if somebody is looking for abook on, say, amazon or
bookshoporg, finding your bookout of the hundreds of books on
a particular topic, and so youknow, the better metadata you
have, more likely people aregoing to find your book when
(20:33):
they're searching for it.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
And what is the job description or the job name for
a person who does this kind ofwork at a publishing company?
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Oh, that's a good question.
So yeah, you know that can be acareer now, often as part of
marketing.
I think metadata kind oftouches all parts of publishing.
I have seen jobs like metadataspecialist so you could get
hired as a metadata specialist,often in a marketing department,
(21:04):
could be part of the marketingassistant.
But like a production person isadding to the metadata, an
editorial person is probablyadding to the metadata, so it
kind of touches all parts.
But often you do have a personlike responsible for it.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I've noticed on platforms such as Readsie you
can actually find people whospecialize in metadata.
I think this is kind ofexciting because it's great to
see a whole new career line kindof emerging within the
publishing industry.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
True, yeah, yeah, I mean other examples like now
I've seen jobs of, like dataanalytics person and things like
that.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
John, how do you see the future of digital content
and distribution?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Well, you know.
So this we were talking at thebeginning.
Publishing is always changing.
I think, you know, for 500years publishing has changed,
but it's definitely accelerating, and one of the big changes
today obviously is AI, and Ithink publishers are still
grappling with this.
Many publishers are kind oflooking at how AI can improve
(22:13):
existing operations, but I thinkone thing that's interesting is
how it can change the book inways that we're not even really
thinking about.
So you mentioned before youknow we were talking a little
bit about ebooks.
So imagine reading an ebook andit brings up a term, like I
(22:35):
mentioned earlier, romanceWriters Association and so you
don't know anything aboutromance.
So maybe you click on that termand it uses AI to tell you
about Romance WritersAssociation or some deep topic.
You're reading a book aboutcancer and it's explaining
(22:59):
elements of cancer that are notin the book.
Or even you know, maybe you'rereading a YA fantasy book and
and it can create an image foryou that you know it's not in
the book that's impressive,isn't it?
Speaker 1 (23:15):
yeah yeah, I need to check that out yeah, I think you
know.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
One thing we haven't seen quite yet but I think will
be pretty soon is you know, ifyou're reading a book on your
Kindle and you, you know, wantto listen to the audio version
it's right there read by afamous actor or a voice narrator
(23:47):
?
It can use AI to read you thebook and it will sound pretty
close to a real person.
It's not the same as having anactor read it.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I heard from a friend that if you are reading a book
on a Kindle and then you get inyour car and you press the audio
, it will actually line up towhere you finish the book.
I haven't done this.
Like I said, I haven't used myKindle in years.
Do you know anything about this?
I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Yeah, they do sync them up, but it's still separate
.
You know, right now, right nowit's still like a separate item
and I think pretty pretty soonthey're just going to be
completely linked.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Gosh, it's fascinating.
John, I am a huge supporter ofsmall and medium presses and I
feel they are a pillar inpublishing right now.
I mean, you look at the BookerAwards and it's the small
presses that are behind many ofthe authors whose books are
being chosen for shortlists.
How do you see small and mediumpresses place in publishing?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Well, that's a really good question and I also value
the small presses and they'realso very, very varied.
So one, you know, one area thatI've worked in quite a bit is
university presses, and theseare not necessarily independent
because they're associated witha university, but they're
similar to independent presses.
They're certainly nonprofits.
(25:02):
So you have like Princeton andJohns Hopkins, but you've got
like smaller ones like Kentuckyor Ohio State University Press,
and then, as you say, I love theindependents.
You know you can go on and on,but like Tin House or Coffee
House Press, gray Wolf, you know, some of these are not on
people's radars, like Iinterviewed a guy a few years
(25:26):
ago, alan Stavans, who owns asmall press called Restless
Books.
There's Beehive Books inPhiladelphia, there's so many
and they're all, like you said,they're able to take risks.
I think one of my friends is apublisher of Melville House and
(25:48):
he publishes things that he andhis wife are the publishers and
he publishes what he believes inbooks that move him, books that
move culture, books that moveculture, books that make a
difference.
You do see worthwhile booksfrom the big five, but they're
not as much risk takers.
(26:09):
They want to publish the samething.
You know, like Fourth Wing isreally big, so now they want to
publish.
You know a million versions ofFourth Wing, yeah, and it's
great.
You know that the small pressescan really do worthwhile books
and emerging authors and morediverse voices.
I think in the US, for example,we haven't had as many books in
(26:34):
translation as other countries,but I do see that increasing.
You see more and more booksfrom Latin America, from Greece,
from every culture you canthink of.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Many of the publishers I have spoken with
over the last five years saidthat when the pandemic came and
everyone was in lockdown, peoplestarted asking for more
translated books, and I lovethat.
I think that's what happens.
Publishers need to listen totheir readers.
Sometimes, I think there's abit of a disconnect there, from
(27:09):
the publishers and thepublishing house through to the
readers.
Same goes for LGBTQ plusauthors and readers.
People want to be able to seethemselves on a bookshelf.
One of the things that wehaven't talked about yet is
distribution, which isimperative for any publishing
house.
Do you see many changeshappening in distribution?
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Well, distribution is tough.
It's tough to find a gooddistributor.
Some of the distributors forsmall we were talking about
small press some of the smalldistributors have closed, but
there are also opportunities.
So, like Ingram, for example,you can get, you know, really
worldwide distribution withIngram.
So I think there are a lot ofopportunities.
One of the things that's reallya game changer this has been
(27:58):
around for a few decades butit's still growing is print on
demand.
So now if I'm a small publisher, I can work with a company like
Ingram and set up the book soit's printed on demand in Latin
America, in the UK, in the EU,and not have to ship books
(28:21):
overseas.
And the same for e-books.
You can, you know, distributeworldwide with e-books.
I think you know, one of thethings I think AI is going to
help with it's already doingthis, but it's going to only
increase is AI-assistedtranslation.
Ai-assisted translation.
(28:45):
I would still want a translatorto do the stack and edit.
My wife's a translator.
I do a bit of translationmyself.
I value translation, but Ithink, for example, most presses
it's very difficult to have allyour books translated.
But if AI can reduce the costand reduce the time to translate
(29:08):
, I'm also seeing.
You know, one thing I'm seeing alot is partnerships,
multilingual partnerships.
So, for example, I mentionedPrinceton University Press
earlier.
They have a partnership nowwith Planeta, which is a one of
the biggest Spanish languagepublishers, if not the biggest,
(29:30):
and it's not for all their booksbut for certain books.
They will do a simultaneousedition where Planeta will do
the book in Spanish andPrinceton will do the book in in
English.
And likewise I mentionedRestless Books.
They do many of their bookssimilar, where they will partner
(29:51):
with, say, like, a Polishpublisher and a French publisher
and acquire the rights from anauthor, you know, in multiple
languages at the same time.
So I think that those kind ofpartnerships are really
interesting.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Yeah, a couple of things about POD.
It is great for the environment,obviously.
But for any readers who arethinking, oh yeah, but I want to
get my book tomorrow morningand I, you know, so I'm going to
order it from Amazon or onlinetonight.
And the thing is that, yes,that book will arrive at four
o'clock in the morning, but youcan also call your local
independent bookshop and if it'sa POD book, it's going to
(30:28):
arrive in probably two days andyou might be able to get it
delivered to your doorstep.
So, readers, remember, if yougo into an independent bookshop
and you don't see the author'sbook that you want to buy on the
bookshelf, ask for it and theywill get it in for you.
And as far as small and mediumpresses go, I think I'm right
about this when I say if theyend up selling a lot of books
(30:51):
through POD and they can, youknow they have proof of sales
then they can actually go tosomeone like Ingram or other
distribution houses, and if theysee that the business is
building from the small press,then they will actually offer
you distribution through a widercompany.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
I mean they have some things available to anybody.
But you're right, as you getbigger, they have more robust
programs, for sure.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
And John, what are you currently reading?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Well, I just read the Love in the Time of
Self-Publishing, which I thoughtwas great.
I have a book club as part ofmy publishing program and we
read that as a book club and wehad the author join us.
I just started.
One thing that was on my mindfor a while is rereading a book
called Pedro Paramo by Juan Rufo, which I read many years ago in
(31:42):
Spanish and have been meaningto reread that.
So I'm rereading that and I'malso reading a book called the
Bookmakers, which is about themaking of the book.
Now, I can't remember the authoroff the top of my head, but
it's a relatively new book aboutlike the history of books and
(32:03):
the history you know, typography.
Like he gets into Baskerville.
He talks about Ben Franklin,who, of course, was a big
publisher, one of the first USpublishers.
I always like books like that.
I also kind of like the indiemagazine landscape too.
(32:24):
Like you mentioned, I playguitar and I also kind of like
the indie magazine landscape too.
Like you mentioned, I playguitar and one of my favorites
is Fretboard Journal, and thisis a new one.
I don't know if you've seenthis, but this is like it's
called Eleven and it's basicallylike a coffee table magazine
about cars.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
This is the kind of thing I love.
Do you know how many books theypublish a year?
Speaker 2 (32:48):
I think they're only doing like two a year or maybe
three a year.
Not very many, but they'rereally cute.
Fretbird Journal is the same.
I think almost every area has.
One of the phrases I use withmy students is dominate the
micro niche.
So it's not just the niche.
Know, dominate the micro niche.
So it's not, it's not just theniche, but like the micro niche.
So you find like a communityand and there's, I think you
(33:11):
know there's like a micro nichefor everything.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Really, yes, there definitely is, Gosh.
I could talk about publishingwith you all day.
I am just intrigued with it.
I mentioned earlier that youare also a musician.
Where can people go on theinternet to listen to your music
?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Well, you can find me on YouTube if you search on
John W Warren or just my websiteis johnwwarrencom.
There's a lot of John Warren,so if you use John W Warren,
you'll find me pretty easy.
And yeah, I do a lot ofconcerts with an organization
called Group Muse, which is areally fascinating community
(33:52):
that kind of unites hosts andmusicians and audiences.
I have a concert coming up thisweekend and it's like the old
idea of a salon, so you go insomebody's home, you perform a
couple sets of music, peoplemingle and you know and have.
You know, have a sense ofcommunity.
(34:13):
But when I play people arereally listening.
So it's not like being in a barjust being background music.
It's nice to have peopleactually listen.
So it's great.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
I put on these Lunch with an Author events in Santa
Barbara and Los Angeles and Ikind of wanted the feeling of a
salon.
It's not in someone's house,it's in a club, but it's funny
it's actually turned intosomething like a salon.
People really need connectionright now.
There's been so much lonelinessacross the globe and I think
(34:48):
when you come together in asmall group whether it be to
listen to music, poetry, anykind of reading, to hear music
or to see someone dance or toput on a play somewhere small
that has an intimate atmosphere,it just can't be beat.
It's wonderful.
Before we go, can you talk alittle about the classes that
you teach?
And I was also wondering ifthere's like a mini class
(35:10):
someone like me could take.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Well, one of the classes I'm teaching right now.
You know most of my program.
It's like a master's program orwe have a graduate certificate.
But I did just find out, youknow, sometimes you just don't
know things exist.
I did just find out, you know,sometimes you just don't know
things exist.
I did just find out that we dohave an avenue that people like
yourself could take like asingle course.
I can send you info on that,like you might want to take,
(35:34):
like my publishingentrepreneurship class, which is
about that, like starting yourown publishing business.
One thing I tell my studentsit's easy to set up your own
business in publishing.
It's hard to make money at it,but I have a little imprint and
my goal is just not lose money.
I don't really need to makemoney on it, I just don't want
(35:55):
to lose money on it and I thinkthat's pretty achievable.
But again, you got to do themarketing on your own.
But we were talking aboutmetadata.
If you have good metadata andthe author's known, I think it
just depends on how much timeyou have to invest in it.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yeah, I guess that goes for any business, right?
Yeah, John, thanks for chattingwith me today.
I found everything you've saidreally interesting and I am
going to try and learn moreabout metadata.
Anyway, thanks for being on theshow, John.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Well, thanks for having me and let me know when
it's out and I'll make sure topromote it.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
You've been listening to my conversation with John W
Warren, Program Director,Publishing Associate Professor
at the George Washington Collegeof Professional Studies.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media, and remember to
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
(36:55):
podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
thebookshoppodcastcom and makesure to subscribe and leave a
review wherever you listen tothe show.
You can also follow me at MandyJackson Beverly on X, Instagram
and Facebook and on YouTube atthe bookshop podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
(37:18):
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
the contact form atthebookshoppodcastcom.
The Bookshop Podcast is writtenand produced by me, Mandy
Jackson-Beverly, Theme musicprovided by Brian Beverly,
executive assistant to Mandy,Adrian Otterhan and graphic
design by Frances Farala.
(37:38):
Thanks for listening and I'llsee you next time.
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a
bibliophile.
Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
Each week, I present interviewswith authors, independent
bookshop owners and booksellersfrom around the globe and
publishing professionals.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media, and remember to
(00:33):
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
You're listening to Episode 291.
I have a few upcoming events I'dlike to share with you.
On Friday, May 23rd, I'm inconversation with Chef Linda
(00:53):
Shui at the California Clubdowntown Los Angeles.
For more information, you canemail me at thebookshoppodcast
at gmailcom.
On Thursday, June 12th, authorhall kelly and I will be in
conversation at the lunch withan author literary series at the
santa barbara club in santabarbara, california.
Martha's latest novel, themartha's vineyard beach and book
(01:16):
club, is a treasure.
You can purchase your ticketsat wwwmandyjacksonbeverlycom.
Forward slash events.
On Tuesday, June 3rd 2025, theLos Angeles World Affairs
Council and Town Hall presentsRIP the Rules-Based
International Order, featuringTrita Parsi, Executive Vice
(01:38):
President of the QuincyInstitute.
Parsi will examine the futureof global governments, the
evolving role of the UN andmultilateral institutions, and
how rising powers in the globalSouth are reshaping the
international landscape.
The discussion will alsoexplore how the international
community can tackle urgenttransnational challenges, from
(02:00):
climate change to economicinequality, through more
inclusive and equitablecollaboration.
For more information, go tolawacthorg and I'll place the
link to this event in the shownotes and hopefully I'll see you
there.
Okay, let's get on with thisweek's interview.
John Warren has more than 25years of senior management
(02:23):
experience in publishing, havingled groundbreaking initiatives
in digital content developmentand distribution, including
e-books, short-form digitalcontent, enhanced e-books and
websites, open access journalsand open educational resources.
Previously, he served as thedirector of the George Mason
(02:43):
University Press and MasonPublishing Group.
Prior to his work at GeorgeMason, Warren served as the
marketing and sales director forthe Georgetown University Press
, marketing director forpublications at the RAND
Corporation and marketingmanager for Fondo de Cultura
Economica.
Hi, John, and welcome to theshow.
It's lovely to have you here.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Thanks, mandy, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
You're welcome Now.
You graduated just up the roadfrom me from the University of
California, santa Barbara, witha BA in Spanish and Portuguese,
which you speak and writefluently, and then you went on
to gain your Master's inInternational Management Latin
America, from the University ofCalifornia San Diego School of
Global Policy and Strategy.
You also have a deep love ofmusic and are a classical
(03:29):
guitarist, composer andperformer.
When did your interest inpublishing arise?
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Well, I guess interest.
You know, like a lot of people,I've always loved books, you
know, since I was a kid.
I remember, you know, going tothe library and taking stacks of
books and the librarian wouldsay, oh, this is enough for the
whole summer, and I was like no,this is for a week.
But I never imagined working inpublishing and I so.
(03:54):
As you said, I graduated fromUC San Diego, from my master's
degree in internationalmanagement management, and I was
doing work with companiesacross the border, helping small
and medium-sized companies sellthings in Mexico and Argentina
and Brazil, and a little bithelping companies in Mexico
(04:18):
export to the US.
And a large Mexican publishercalled Fondo de Cultura
Economica hired me back in 1992to do some research on the US
market for books in Spanish.
So these weren't like textbooks, how to learn Spanish, they
were novels, nonfiction,children's books in Spanish.
(04:42):
And this Mexican publisher itwas kind of like a university
press but owned by the Mexicangovernment they hired me to do
this project, looking at themarket for books in Spanish, and
I delivered the project andthen they they essentially hired
me to to start doing that and,you know, getting into the?
(05:02):
U the US market with with booksfrom Mexico, and so that kind
of got me going and it was.
It was an interesting time tobe in publishing and and to be
in the Spanish language marketbecause that was really growing.
And so as, even though I wasnew in publishing, I was able to
, like, speak at Book ExpoAmerica in my first year and
(05:23):
things like that- what year wasthis?
Speaker 1 (05:25):
92.
So did you mostly do Spanish toEnglish or English to Spanish
translations.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
No, it didn't really have much to do with translation
.
There were books in Spanishbasically exported from Mexico
to US.
You probably remember Borderswas emerging at that time.
I first contacted them whenthey had only 10 stores and they
had a buyer from Argentina whowas interested in setting up a
(05:57):
Spanish language section inevery Borders store and I
remember him saying oh you know,we're really growing, and they
were.
They were growing massively andI worked with Borders to kind
of organize an entire section.
I also worked with a lot ofuniversity bookstores to do that
(06:17):
too, and we would recommend ourtitles but also other titles in
Spanish.
We would recommend our titlesbut also other titles in Spanish
.
And you know, as you know,there's many.
I mean, even back in 92, therewere, I think, 35 million
Spanish speaking people in theUS.
That being said, it's not justone market.
(06:38):
You know, there's people fromMexico, people from Peru, people
from Cuba, people from PuertoRico.
The same language but different.
You know, different culturesand different identities and
different authors.
But yeah, we had a lot of, like, nobel Prize winning authors
like Carlos Fuentes and RosarioCastellano and Octavio Paz and
people like that.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
And now you are the Director and Associate Professor
Graduate Program in Publishingat the George Washington
University.
What hands-on skills does astudent have after graduating
from this publishing program?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well, I think you know part of it.
We're really giving peopleskills in publishing, but also
things like leadership skills,managerial skills, and they're
learning from professionals whowork in publishing, who have
long time experience.
I myself have been working inpublishing for 32 years.
I still consider myselfprimarily a publisher.
(07:34):
We have people like Dean Smith,who's the director of Duke
University Press, greg Britton,who's the editorial director at
Johns Hopkins University Press,pooja Telakacharla, who's the
licensing director at AmericanPsychiatric.
(07:54):
So students are learning fromprofessionals.
And you're right, these days wehave Google, we have AI.
You can learn a lot on your own, but I think there's still a
lot of value of learning fromprofessionals with deep
experience and what we reallyemphasize is practical
experience.
So students are doing projectsthat mirror what they would do
in the workplace as a, as aneditorial assistant, as a
(08:16):
marketing assistant.
What I usually hear fromemployers is how well-rounded
our students are.
So in publishing, as youprobably know, you know people
often have deep expertise in onearea, like like.
I listened to your yourinterview with Andy Hughes, for
example, and you know he.
(08:36):
He knows production.
Of course, he knows a lot ofdifferent things.
He was, he was in publishingfor decades.
But often people are, you knowwhat you call like silo.
They have, like you know, theyknow everything about production
, but they don't necessarilyknow marketing and we really try
to have students you know knowthe editorial side, acquisitions
(08:58):
, business and management,marketing, things like
accessibility technology, sothey come out of the program
with a really wide knowledge anda really deep knowledge.
Speaker 1 (09:13):
And do most of them go off to work within publishing
companies Most?
Speaker 2 (09:16):
of them do.
You know, publishing is verybroad, as you know.
So I think the typical student,many of our students, like
their dream is to go work intrade publishing, maybe as a YA
editor, and some of them do gointo trade publishing.
We have students at Sourcebooks, at Penguin, random House, at
(09:38):
Simon Schuster, and when theycome into the program they don't
really know about publishing.
At, say, like associations andsocieties, like American
Chemical Society or AAAS orAmerican Psychological
Association have huge publishingoperations and many jobs,
(09:59):
stable jobs, places like SagePublishing or Wiley, and so
these are not necessarily onstudents' radar.
And then the other thing isit's not all about editorial.
Most people kind of know whatan editor does, but they don't
necessarily think of a job likeAndy Hughes in production.
That's not on people's radar.
(10:20):
But you can have a great careerin production or in rights and
permissions for example, thingslike that.
Speaker 1 (10:27):
You mentioned my conversation with Andy Hughes,
who's the recently retiredSenior VP and Director of
Production Design at KnopfDoubleday Publishing Group, and
Andy spoke in depth about thepublishing process, the
complexities of mergingcorporate cultures and computer
systems, and he gave a behindthe scenes look at the
challenges of implementing newsystems across Knopf's imprints.
(10:51):
And you're right, that's justone section of publishing, but I
recommend anyone who islistening to our conversation
today to go back and listen tomy conversation with Andy and
I'll make sure to put that linkin the show notes.
And, as you said, publishing ismuch, much more than editing,
marketing and publicitydepartments.
(11:12):
Now, how do you see the futureof libraries in the United
States?
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Well, I think libraries, libraries are always
evolving.
Libraries, you know, of course,libraries is also a diverse
market.
You have academic libraries,you have corporate libraries.
You know, of course, librariesis also a diverse market.
You have academic libraries,you have corporate libraries,
you have public libraries.
One of the areas I've beeninvolved with is on the academic
side.
Many libraries have gotten intopublishing, so there's a whole
(11:39):
library publishing coalition.
Libraries are not necessarilyknown as publishers, but many of
them do.
And you know, libraries arealways about providing service
and values to their communitiesand I think, whether it's a
public library or an academiclibrary or a corporate library,
(12:00):
that's what they're focused onis serving their communities.
And I think publishers oftenhave the frame of mind that
libraries are hurting salesbecause they, you know, offer
books to free you know, for freeto people.
I don't see it that way.
Really essential part of thepublishing landscape and indeed
(12:23):
of our cultural and educationlandscape, and really add a lot
of values and for everybody thatyou know checks out a book for
free, you know you're stillconsuming knowledge and many
people will go out and buy thebook or recommend it to people
and I think that if you're apublisher, the worst thing is
(12:46):
that people are ignoring yourbooks or not knowing about your
books.
So I think libraries areessential.
I'm very troubled.
Just the other day I read thatthe administration is cutting
back on funds to libraries.
Specifically the Institute forMuseum and Library Science is
(13:10):
cutting back, and you knowthere's a lot of cutbacks and
you know they want to dismantlethe whole Department of
Education, for that matter.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
Yeah, and I think if we go down that rabbit hole we
shall never get out.
It is a scary time foreducation, specifically
libraries and book banning inthe United States.
Down that rabbit hole we shallnever get out.
It is a scary time foreducation, specifically,
libraries and book banning inthe United States, something I
think is important, and maybefor more self-published authors,
which is such an oxymoron, thatword self-publishing, because
it takes a team to publish abook.
When you are self-publishing,you can go wide, or 30 days, or
(13:43):
30 or 90 days.
Maybe you check that little boxon Amazon which means you
signed a contract saying thatyou cannot have your ebook on
any other ebook platform forthose 90 days.
But if you go what is calledwide, that gives you access to
putting your ebook intolibraries and I think this is
really exciting.
It is it is.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
I remember I was in the very early days of eBooks.
I was one of the first peopleto do eBooks and that was one of
the areas that was very early.
I remember a company calledNetLibrary.
There was eBrary, there wasquite a few companies and some
of those are still around, likeOverdrive, for example.
(14:24):
They started back then.
This was in the late 90s, early2000s, before the Kindle event,
and, like my wife reads most ofher books checked out, you know
, electronically from thelibrary.
I'm kind of old, like I'm verytechnologically, you know, savvy
(14:44):
, but I still like reading, youknow, print books.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
Oh, I'm with you there, john.
I remember when Kindle firstcame out, I tried it for about I
don't know, 12 or 18 months,and after that time I just went.
What am I doing?
I don't like reading like this,so I went back to hard copy and
paperbacks, let alone readingon a phone.
I cannot imagine doing that atall.
So the reason I carry quite alarge purse around is because
(15:10):
it's always got a book in it.
I would like to learn moreabout metadata.
What is the importance ofmetadata in publishing and what
is it?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
Sure, one of my jokes is metadata is my hobby and
metadata is an almost invisiblepart of publishing.
But it really is what I'vecalled the lifeblood of
publishing.
And I think today, in thedigital age especially when I
started in publishing 1992,metadata didn't really exist.
(15:43):
It was emerging.
But metadata let's define itit's data about data, so it was
originally a computer term.
But when we talk about bookmetadata, we're talking about
all the aspects of the book.
So you know who's the author,what's the title, what's the
author, what's the title, what'sthe ISBN, what's the price, but
(16:04):
also things like the coverimage, the cover description,
blurbs, you know the author, bio, and then you know Meta Day is
almost endless.
You know metadata is almostendless.
It can include things like apodcast about the book,
interview with the author,awards that the book has won or
(16:26):
the author has won, so it'salmost endless.
One thing I was just talkingabout this yesterday with Todd
McElroy, who you should have onyour show too.
He's also an expert on metadata.
And you know most publishers.
I think they still todayundervalue and underutilize
(16:46):
metadata.
It's certainly a part of everypublisher's operation, but in
some ways I think manypublishers do kind of the
minimum in terms of metadata and, as I say, it's almost endless.
I read an article about itseveral years ago.
It's like a universe and it'salso kind of DNA.
(17:07):
It's like the really finepoints.
But it's also the big pictureand one thing that Dad used as
an example.
He published a book recentlyabout AI and publishing and he
has the whole book availableonline.
(17:27):
And, you know, hopefully peoplewill buy the book in print or
as an ebook, but the books allavailable and so that whole book
is now metadata.
So you know the content ismetadata and I think again that
you know we could go on and onabout metadata is probably bored
much of your audience, but it's, it's all you know.
(17:50):
It's everything to do with thebook.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Okay, metadata is like the DNA of a book.
So once you've uploaded yourbooks to the multiple platforms,
how do you go about finding thespecific threads that are
important to list with your book?
Does that make sense?
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Well, a lot of it's kind ofinvisible to the consumer, but
it's definitely in platforms.
So things like keywords, forexample, using keywords.
So things like keywords, forexample, using keywords.
So things that are beyond, say,the title.
So a book I read recently thatPrinceton University Press
(18:29):
published I don't know if you'veseen this, but it's called Love
at the Time of Self-Publishinghow Romance Writers Change the
Rules of Writing and Success.
And you know, I personallydon't read a lot of romance
genre.
But this book isn't so muchabout the genre as, like, the
community of romance authors,and so an example would be, you
(18:52):
know, even though it's not inthe title or the subtitle,
things like Romance WritersAssociation would be a good
keyword for this book and, youknow, maybe Romanticy or
something like that.
So there's a lot of keywordsthat you could use for finding
this book.
That wouldn't necessarily be,you know, in the book
(19:15):
description or in the title orsubtitle.
There's also parts of metadatathat might be involved, like
licensing rights, like what youknow what licensing or what
translation rights are availablecould be part of the metadata
as well.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
And with keywords.
Are you better to use a singleword, like you suggested
romanticize or would it bebetter to use the words romantic
fiction?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
it could be both, yeah, I think, kind of phrases
up to maybe five words.
You know phrases five words andand you can have like many
keywords.
I think usually you want tokind of prioritize, um, maybe
like the top five, but you couldadd several different keywords.
And you know it's kind of partof search option optimization
(20:11):
search engine optimization andmetadata kind of can go along
together.
So if somebody is looking for abook on, say, amazon or
bookshoporg, finding your bookout of the hundreds of books on
a particular topic, and so youknow, the better metadata you
have, more likely people aregoing to find your book when
(20:33):
they're searching for it.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
And what is the job description or the job name for
a person who does this kind ofwork at a publishing company?
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Oh, that's a good question.
So yeah, you know that can be acareer now, often as part of
marketing.
I think metadata kind oftouches all parts of publishing.
I have seen jobs like metadataspecialist so you could get
hired as a metadata specialist,often in a marketing department,
(21:04):
could be part of the marketingassistant.
But like a production person isadding to the metadata, an
editorial person is probablyadding to the metadata, so it
kind of touches all parts.
But often you do have a personlike responsible for it.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
I've noticed on platforms such as Readsie you
can actually find people whospecialize in metadata.
I think this is kind ofexciting because it's great to
see a whole new career line kindof emerging within the
publishing industry.
Speaker 2 (21:35):
True, yeah, yeah, I mean other examples like now
I've seen jobs of, like dataanalytics person and things like
that.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
John, how do you see the future of digital content
and distribution?
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Well, you know.
So this we were talking at thebeginning.
Publishing is always changing.
I think, you know, for 500years publishing has changed,
but it's definitely accelerating, and one of the big changes
today obviously is AI, and Ithink publishers are still
grappling with this.
Many publishers are kind oflooking at how AI can improve
(22:13):
existing operations, but I thinkone thing that's interesting is
how it can change the book inways that we're not even really
thinking about.
So you mentioned before youknow we were talking a little
bit about ebooks.
So imagine reading an ebook andit brings up a term, like I
(22:35):
mentioned earlier, romanceWriters Association and so you
don't know anything aboutromance.
So maybe you click on that termand it uses AI to tell you
about Romance WritersAssociation or some deep topic.
You're reading a book aboutcancer and it's explaining
(22:59):
elements of cancer that are notin the book.
Or even you know, maybe you'rereading a YA fantasy book and
and it can create an image foryou that you know it's not in
the book that's impressive,isn't it?
Speaker 1 (23:15):
yeah yeah, I need to check that out yeah, I think you
know.
Speaker 2 (23:18):
One thing we haven't seen quite yet but I think will
be pretty soon is you know, ifyou're reading a book on your
Kindle and you, you know, wantto listen to the audio version
it's right there read by afamous actor or a voice narrator
(23:47):
?
It can use AI to read you thebook and it will sound pretty
close to a real person.
It's not the same as having anactor read it.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
I heard from a friend that if you are reading a book
on a Kindle and then you get inyour car and you press the audio
, it will actually line up towhere you finish the book.
I haven't done this.
Like I said, I haven't used myKindle in years.
Do you know anything about this?
I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Yeah, they do sync them up, but it's still separate
.
You know, right now, right nowit's still like a separate item
and I think pretty pretty soonthey're just going to be
completely linked.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
Gosh, it's fascinating.
John, I am a huge supporter ofsmall and medium presses and I
feel they are a pillar inpublishing right now.
I mean, you look at the BookerAwards and it's the small
presses that are behind many ofthe authors whose books are
being chosen for shortlists.
How do you see small and mediumpresses place in publishing?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Well, that's a really good question and I also value
the small presses and they'realso very, very varied.
So one, you know, one area thatI've worked in quite a bit is
university presses, and theseare not necessarily independent
because they're associated witha university, but they're
similar to independent presses.
They're certainly nonprofits.
(25:02):
So you have like Princeton andJohns Hopkins, but you've got
like smaller ones like Kentuckyor Ohio State University Press,
and then, as you say, I love theindependents.
You know you can go on and on,but like Tin House or Coffee
House Press, gray Wolf, you know, some of these are not on
people's radars, like Iinterviewed a guy a few years
(25:26):
ago, alan Stavans, who owns asmall press called Restless
Books.
There's Beehive Books inPhiladelphia, there's so many
and they're all, like you said,they're able to take risks.
I think one of my friends is apublisher of Melville House and
(25:48):
he publishes things that he andhis wife are the publishers and
he publishes what he believes inbooks that move him, books that
move culture, books that moveculture, books that make a
difference.
You do see worthwhile booksfrom the big five, but they're
not as much risk takers.
(26:09):
They want to publish the samething.
You know, like Fourth Wing isreally big, so now they want to
publish.
You know a million versions ofFourth Wing, yeah, and it's
great.
You know that the small pressescan really do worthwhile books
and emerging authors and morediverse voices.
I think in the US, for example,we haven't had as many books in
(26:34):
translation as other countries,but I do see that increasing.
You see more and more booksfrom Latin America, from Greece,
from every culture you canthink of.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
Many of the publishers I have spoken with
over the last five years saidthat when the pandemic came and
everyone was in lockdown, peoplestarted asking for more
translated books, and I lovethat.
I think that's what happens.
Publishers need to listen totheir readers.
Sometimes, I think there's abit of a disconnect there, from
(27:09):
the publishers and thepublishing house through to the
readers.
Same goes for LGBTQ plusauthors and readers.
People want to be able to seethemselves on a bookshelf.
One of the things that wehaven't talked about yet is
distribution, which isimperative for any publishing
house.
Do you see many changeshappening in distribution?
Speaker 2 (27:37):
Well, distribution is tough.
It's tough to find a gooddistributor.
Some of the distributors forsmall we were talking about
small press some of the smalldistributors have closed, but
there are also opportunities.
So, like Ingram, for example,you can get, you know, really
worldwide distribution withIngram.
So I think there are a lot ofopportunities.
One of the things that's reallya game changer this has been
(27:58):
around for a few decades butit's still growing is print on
demand.
So now if I'm a small publisher, I can work with a company like
Ingram and set up the book soit's printed on demand in Latin
America, in the UK, in the EU,and not have to ship books
(28:21):
overseas.
And the same for e-books.
You can, you know, distributeworldwide with e-books.
I think you know, one of thethings I think AI is going to
help with it's already doingthis, but it's going to only
increase is AI-assistedtranslation.
Ai-assisted translation.
(28:45):
I would still want a translatorto do the stack and edit.
My wife's a translator.
I do a bit of translationmyself.
I value translation, but Ithink, for example, most presses
it's very difficult to have allyour books translated.
But if AI can reduce the costand reduce the time to translate
(29:08):
, I'm also seeing.
You know, one thing I'm seeing alot is partnerships,
multilingual partnerships.
So, for example, I mentionedPrinceton University Press
earlier.
They have a partnership nowwith Planeta, which is a one of
the biggest Spanish languagepublishers, if not the biggest,
(29:30):
and it's not for all their booksbut for certain books.
They will do a simultaneousedition where Planeta will do
the book in Spanish andPrinceton will do the book in in
English.
And likewise I mentionedRestless Books.
They do many of their bookssimilar, where they will partner
(29:51):
with, say, like, a Polishpublisher and a French publisher
and acquire the rights from anauthor, you know, in multiple
languages at the same time.
So I think that those kind ofpartnerships are really
interesting.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Yeah, a couple of things about POD.
It is great for the environment,obviously.
But for any readers who arethinking, oh yeah, but I want to
get my book tomorrow morningand I, you know, so I'm going to
order it from Amazon or onlinetonight.
And the thing is that, yes,that book will arrive at four
o'clock in the morning, but youcan also call your local
independent bookshop and if it'sa POD book, it's going to
(30:28):
arrive in probably two days andyou might be able to get it
delivered to your doorstep.
So, readers, remember, if yougo into an independent bookshop
and you don't see the author'sbook that you want to buy on the
bookshelf, ask for it and theywill get it in for you.
And as far as small and mediumpresses go, I think I'm right
about this when I say if theyend up selling a lot of books
(30:51):
through POD and they can, youknow they have proof of sales
then they can actually go tosomeone like Ingram or other
distribution houses, and if theysee that the business is
building from the small press,then they will actually offer
you distribution through a widercompany.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
I mean they have some things available to anybody.
But you're right, as you getbigger, they have more robust
programs, for sure.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
And John, what are you currently reading?
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Well, I just read the Love in the Time of
Self-Publishing, which I thoughtwas great.
I have a book club as part ofmy publishing program and we
read that as a book club and wehad the author join us.
I just started.
One thing that was on my mindfor a while is rereading a book
called Pedro Paramo by Juan Rufo, which I read many years ago in
(31:42):
Spanish and have been meaningto reread that.
So I'm rereading that and I'malso reading a book called the
Bookmakers, which is about themaking of the book.
Now, I can't remember the authoroff the top of my head, but
it's a relatively new book aboutlike the history of books and
(32:03):
the history you know, typography.
Like he gets into Baskerville.
He talks about Ben Franklin,who, of course, was a big
publisher, one of the first USpublishers.
I always like books like that.
I also kind of like the indiemagazine landscape too.
(32:24):
Like you mentioned, I playguitar and I also kind of like
the indie magazine landscape too.
Like you mentioned, I playguitar and one of my favorites
is Fretboard Journal, and thisis a new one.
I don't know if you've seenthis, but this is like it's
called Eleven and it's basicallylike a coffee table magazine
about cars.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
This is the kind of thing I love.
Do you know how many books theypublish a year?
Speaker 2 (32:48):
I think they're only doing like two a year or maybe
three a year.
Not very many, but they'rereally cute.
Fretbird Journal is the same.
I think almost every area has.
One of the phrases I use withmy students is dominate the
micro niche.
So it's not just the niche.
Know, dominate the micro niche.
So it's not, it's not just theniche, but like the micro niche.
So you find like a communityand and there's, I think you
(33:11):
know there's like a micro nichefor everything.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
Really, yes, there definitely is, Gosh.
I could talk about publishingwith you all day.
I am just intrigued with it.
I mentioned earlier that youare also a musician.
Where can people go on theinternet to listen to your music
?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Well, you can find me on YouTube if you search on
John W Warren or just my websiteis johnwwarrencom.
There's a lot of John Warren,so if you use John W Warren,
you'll find me pretty easy.
And yeah, I do a lot ofconcerts with an organization
called Group Muse, which is areally fascinating community
(33:52):
that kind of unites hosts andmusicians and audiences.
I have a concert coming up thisweekend and it's like the old
idea of a salon, so you go insomebody's home, you perform a
couple sets of music, peoplemingle and you know and have.
You know, have a sense ofcommunity.
(34:13):
But when I play people arereally listening.
So it's not like being in a barjust being background music.
It's nice to have peopleactually listen.
So it's great.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
I put on these Lunch with an Author events in Santa
Barbara and Los Angeles and Ikind of wanted the feeling of a
salon.
It's not in someone's house,it's in a club, but it's funny
it's actually turned intosomething like a salon.
People really need connectionright now.
There's been so much lonelinessacross the globe and I think
(34:48):
when you come together in asmall group whether it be to
listen to music, poetry, anykind of reading, to hear music
or to see someone dance or toput on a play somewhere small
that has an intimate atmosphere,it just can't be beat.
It's wonderful.
Before we go, can you talk alittle about the classes that
you teach?
And I was also wondering ifthere's like a mini class
(35:10):
someone like me could take.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Well, one of the classes I'm teaching right now.
You know most of my program.
It's like a master's program orwe have a graduate certificate.
But I did just find out, youknow, sometimes you just don't
know things exist.
I did just find out, you know,sometimes you just don't know
things exist.
I did just find out that we dohave an avenue that people like
yourself could take like asingle course.
I can send you info on that,like you might want to take,
(35:34):
like my publishingentrepreneurship class, which is
about that, like starting yourown publishing business.
One thing I tell my studentsit's easy to set up your own
business in publishing.
It's hard to make money at it,but I have a little imprint and
my goal is just not lose money.
I don't really need to makemoney on it, I just don't want
(35:55):
to lose money on it and I thinkthat's pretty achievable.
But again, you got to do themarketing on your own.
But we were talking aboutmetadata.
If you have good metadata andthe author's known, I think it
just depends on how much timeyou have to invest in it.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Yeah, I guess that goes for any business, right?
Yeah, John, thanks for chattingwith me today.
I found everything you've saidreally interesting and I am
going to try and learn moreabout metadata.
Anyway, thanks for being on theshow, John.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Well, thanks for having me and let me know when
it's out and I'll make sure topromote it.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
You've been listening to my conversation with John W
Warren, Program Director,Publishing Associate Professor
at the George Washington Collegeof Professional Studies.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media, and remember to
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
(36:55):
podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
thebookshoppodcastcom and makesure to subscribe and leave a
review wherever you listen tothe show.
You can also follow me at MandyJackson Beverly on X, Instagram
and Facebook and on YouTube atthe bookshop podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
(37:18):
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
the contact form atthebookshoppodcastcom.
The Bookshop Podcast is writtenand produced by me, Mandy
Jackson-Beverly, Theme musicprovided by Brian Beverly,
executive assistant to Mandy,Adrian Otterhan and graphic
design by Frances Farala.
(37:38):
Thanks for listening and I'llsee you next time.
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