June 30, 2025 • 32 mins
In this episode, I chat with Baker Rogers and Mattilyn Kortney, co-owners of Queer Have Books in Colombia, South Carolina.
Nestled in Columbia's historic Arcade Mall, this cozy 680-square-foot sanctuary defines queer not just as gender and sexual identity but as active resistance against all forms of discrimination. The shelves hold carefully curated collections addressing LGBTQ+ experiences alongside works on anti-racism, feminism, and social justice, creating a space where intersectionality isn't just acknowledged but celebrated.
What makes Queer Haven remarkable is how it thrives despite challenging political circumstances. While South Carolina faces potential legislation that could lead to widespread book bans, the shop has leaned into controversy by prominently featuring banned titles. "We have people come in here every day saying 'I've got to get this before it's sold out,'" Baker shares, noting the irony that censorship attempts have actually boosted interest in these books.
Beyond retail, Queer Haven functions as a vibrant community center. In its first year as a brick-and-mortar location, it hosted an impressive 160 events, ranging from book clubs and writing workshops to drag story hours and queer comedy nights.
In a world increasingly dominated by algorithm-driven recommendations and instant delivery, Queer Haven Books represents something profoundly different: human connection, thoughtful curation, and a physical space where marginalized voices are centered rather than silenced. It's not just about selling books—it's about creating community one page at a time.
This episode is brought to you by Saturn Press. Indie Bookshop owners, click here to receive 10% off your first order: www.saturnpress.us
Farrel Covington and the Limits of Style, Paul Rudnick
TJ Klune episode on The Bookshop Podcast
TJ Klune episode on The Bookshop Podcast
Paul Rudnick episode on The Bookshop Podcast
The Bookshop: A History of the American Bookstore, Evan Friss
The Life Impossible, Matt Haig
The Night Watchman, Louise Erdrich
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a
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Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
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(00:33):
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Now let's get on with thisweek's interview.
Queer Haven Books is SouthCarolina's only independent
queer bookstore and is co-ownedby Baker Rogers and Matalyn
Courtney.
The name of the bookstore,queer Haven Books, is based on
their mission to provide a placeof safety and refuge for the
queer community in the southernUnited States.
(02:00):
Their hope is to be a safehaven from the many worries of
the world.
They define queer broadly toinclude all genders and
sexualities that go againstestablished norms, but also
politically as pushback againstall phobias and isms,
discrimination and violence inour society.
Hi, baker and Madeline, andwelcome to the show.
(02:22):
It's great to have you here,and how are you both?
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Great, thank you Doing as good as we can in these
political times, but we'rehappy to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, these are strange times and scary times
for so many people.
I'm excited to learn aboutQueer Haven Books.
What was the impetus behind anassociate professor of sociology
and a registered nurse to opena queer indie bookshop in South
Carolina?
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Okay, well, it was kind of my brainchild, so I'll
start there.
Also, I'll be full professor inthe fall.
I just had to throw that inbecause I just found out.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Congratulations.
That's wonderful.
It's a lot of hard work, anddoes that mean you'll receive
tenure?
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I already have tenure as an associate, but I'll pull,
which is the yeah, basicallythe end of the career ladder.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
That's great news.
I hope you're celebrated Welldone, thank you, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
So I've been struggling with academia for a
while.
It's in a chaos, as you know,related to the politics, but
especially in the Southeast allthe way back it's going in the
wrong direction.
So I wanted to kind of figureout a way to do what I love
while also creating an exitstrategy from academia.
(03:34):
And I lived in Columbia, southCarolina, about 15 years ago and
I wanted to open a queer barfor queer space.
15 years later, I'm 40.
Now I did not want to open abar.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah, our dreams change as we get older, right?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Oh yeah, so I'm a sociologist and a social worker
and I have my research is ingender and sexuality and I've
written a few books and I justwanted a place where books like
that written a few books and Ijust wanted a place where books
like that, but also like allkinds of books, could be shared
and education could be shared ina lot less controlled
(04:11):
environment than academia thesedays.
So I got the idea to open abookstore and I just ran with it
Probably, so so fast I didn'tthink to stop.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Well, you know what?
Sometimes you just have to runwith an idea.
Overthinking something can be alittle debilitating.
That's been my experienceanyway.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, definitely yeah, if I
would have stopped and thoughttoo much.
I mean, I have a lot of friendswho have been planning books or
planning small businessesforever and, like you, can take
forever to plan all the details.
So that did not happen.
We just we just went for it.
At the time, maddie was stillis, but was by.
(04:53):
She likes me to call her myperson, my partner, but we call
each other person.
So she was my person and shetagged along for the ride and
now she a co-owner and does morework than me.
So I'll let Maddie talk aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Maddie, before you answer that, I just want to say
thank you for being a nurse.
My hat goes off to anybody inthe medical profession,
especially over the last sixyears.
It's been extremely tough and Idon't think medical
professionals can ever bethanked enough.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
It's my pleasure, thank you.
And then getting to Bakerstarting the Burt's store.
Yeah, it was her baby, like shesaid, we were dating at the
time and so I just fell into it,and then in March she offered
for me to be part owner.
So here we are.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So there's actually two of you and a silent partner.
How many people do you haveworking for you in the store?
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Yeah, we have three part-time employees.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Now I'm looking at you both.
Now, what am I seeing in thebackground?
Is that an indoor mall or alittle side street?
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Our store is located in the arcade mall on Main
Street in downtown Columbia.
It's the oldest mall inColumbia, South Carolina, so you
can see kind of the beautifullike chandeliers and there's so
much detail on the walls andstuff.
Yeah, a lot of people don'teven know it's here but it's the
oldest indoor mall in Columbia.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Well, it looks gorgeous.
While I was researching youboth and the bookshop, I read an
article where you both describehow Queer Haven Books defines
the word queer.
Can you expand on that please?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
We describe it as more broad than most people do,
and I will let Baker take itover from there.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Yeah, our focus is clearly on gender and sexuality,
so in that way, queer is moretraditional or what most people
would think of, but then, yeah,we also describe it as like any
kind of pushback against thenorms.
I think a lot of people now usequeer as their identity as this
(06:57):
like anti-establishment thingas well, so it's very political.
On the website, we talk aboutpushing back against phobias and
isms all of them, rightTransphobia, homophobia, but
also racism, ableism, ageism,sexism.
So we have, in addition toqueer, lgbtq plus IA books and
(07:19):
authors.
We also have a lot of booksabout anti-racism.
We also have a lot of booksabout anti-racism.
We have a lot of books aboutfeminism, and so all of our
books aren't just about, orwritten by, people who identify
as queer, but what they're doingand fighting back against the
violence and the horrible thingsthat are happening to our
society in our mind makes themqueer politically, so where we
(07:42):
also like to use this more likea radical, the word radical.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, I've interviewed a few radical
bookshops on the bookshoppodcast and what I found is the
idea of what is radical isconstantly shifting.
But one of the things inpublishing that I found
interesting is that people arenow publishing zines at home and
, my goodness, some of thesezines are absolutely fantastic.
(08:06):
Do you sell them in?
Speaker 3 (08:07):
the store we sell zines and chapbooks.
Yeah, the zines and chapbooksare definitely, definitely, yeah
, I think, a part of radicalmovements and I think that's
really cool because I mean, wego all the way back, you know,
to the communist manifesto.
Right, this is what, what it isand to be valuable, I think,
little handbooks, how we can dothat or at least make some
(08:29):
changes.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, yes, and I think radical bookshops have
always been about community andactivism.
Now for now, indie bookshops inthe United States are spaces
where diverse communities cangather and have a conversation.
How does this relate to QueerHaven Books?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, I think it actually started that way.
I mean it's grown more nowbecause of all the things that
are happening.
But people, I think we'relooking for somewhere to belong,
and I mean we have people whocome in just because they need
to be here, not because theynecessarily want to buy anything
, but they want to be in a spacewhere they feel safe, they're
in a haven.
And then definitely now, with,like I said, all the things,
(09:09):
people are looking for thosespots and definitely I think
that we are one of them and it'sour pleasure to be one of them.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Baker.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (09:17):
We've been pop-up for a year and then a brick and
mortar.
This month is our yearanniversary.
Our year party comes up on the26th and I like that.
We did 160 events last year,either going out in the
community and doing pop-ups orin our store.
We have three official bookclubs through the store, but we
(09:37):
have other book clubs that meethere all the time.
We have writing like justwriting times, we have queer
open mics, we have queer comedy,we have tarot classes and all
these things.
So I think while we've createdthis large community, we've also
created safe places for asmaller, like more intimate
community, and there's choicesbetween do you want to come to
this political event or do youwant to go a terror class and
(09:59):
build this community?
So there's options for activismand options for radical
politics, but there's alsooptions for queer joy, escapism
a little bit when we need to.
And, like maddie said, we havepeople that sometimes just come
here and sit and say there'snowhere else in columbia they
feel safe to just sit.
(10:20):
Yes, we've definitely built ahuge community over the last two
years and that's still growingmuch more since we have our
brick and mortar now have aplace to meet.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah, and I would add I think we all need a safe
place right.
Our humanity isn't defined bythe color of our skin or our
sexuality.
That's kind of a good segueinto my next question, baker.
On the Queer Haven Bookswebsite, under the Meet Our
Staff menu, you wrote, quoteQueer Haven Books is one of the
(10:49):
many ways that I teach mydaughter about love, diversity
and equity.
End quote have you had anyopposition from Columbia
residents about your bookshopand have you been able to
cultivate a growing, acceptingcommunity?
Speaker 3 (11:04):
So where I wanted the bookshop to be located, we
didn't find a place within ourbudget and we ended up in the
mall here and I think it turnedout really well.
We're a 680 square footbusiness, so very small.
A lot of people don't knowabout the mall.
I think we're in some way.
We're right on Main Street,three blocks from the Capitol
building, but we're also likekind of off the beaten path.
(11:26):
You need to know we're here andI think that has really saved
us a lot in terms of we haven'tgotten any pushback and we have
friends all around Union, northCarolina, specifically where
drag story hour and those thingsare being attacked.
Next weekend we have a dragstory hour and we've had three
and no pushback.
We just joined the drag storyhour the national group so we
(11:49):
can be a hub for that here inSouth Carolina because there's
not an affiliate with thenational group but we're able to
do things like that.
We go to Soda City, which is amarket on Main Street, every
Saturday and we set up our tentand we never have problems.
I think and I say all the timeone reason I think is because a
lot of people were like don'tname it queer, don't name it
queer, and I was like, no,that's what I'm naming it
(12:12):
because people know what it is.
If they don't want it, thenjust walk away.
We haven't had people whoneeded to tell us things really
like about it.
They just saw what it was andturned the other way because
it's very clear.
And then you ask about abroader community.
For sure, we have a independentmovie theater two blocks down
Main Street called theNickelodeon.
(12:32):
They had a comedy tour Tuesdaynight is called here to Pee.
It's a complete trans groupdoing a 50 state tour about
politics.
It's comedy but about politics.
And yeah, it's called here toPee.
And we've worked with the NICdoing book to film things, where
(12:52):
we do a book club and they'lldo film.
The Trustus Theater, the localindependent theater, that does
plays, some local and sometraveling plays.
We're on there, all of theirbulletin, all their things.
They advertise for us.
The Richland County Library hasus over multiple times a year
to sell and they just had a hugeevent and they wanted to give
(13:14):
out books at the event and theybought them directly from us.
Yeah, the Harriet HancockCenter is the local LGBT center.
We have a really greatrelationship with them.
And then a couple of counselingcenters that are all queer.
So, yes, the community hasexpanded far outside of the
community we have here.
The larger community wants tosupport us, even in times where
(13:34):
it could be dangerous for placeslike the library to support us.
Support us Even in times whereit could be dangerous for places
like the library to support us.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
They're supporting us fully.
That's good to hear.
You know there's many queerauthors have been on the show,
but there's one in particularwho I adore and that's TJ Klune,
and I'll put the link to acouple of interviews I've done
with him in the show notes.
He shared a great story aboutthe importance of his hometown
library to him and he talksabout the librarian quite a bit.
(14:01):
Has TJ been into the store?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
No, but I would love that.
If you know him, yeah, tell himto come.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Well, I can definitely put you in touch with
his publicist.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
You can tell him.
I don't know if you can seethis.
That's Chauncey from his book.
Oh, I see it in the window, astuffed animal.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I was first introduced to TJ Klune's writing
by the children's authorElizabeth Bloomley, who owns
Flying Pig Bookstore in Vermont,and she said to me have you
ever read the House in theCerulean Sea?
And I said no, and she saidlook for a copy of it, I'm going
to send you one in the mail.
I started reading the book theday it arrived and couldn't put
(14:46):
it down.
Tj has this gift within hiswriting of bringing magic to the
words.
We are all one.
That's all I'm going to sayabout him.
I just think he's a fabulouswriter and, importantly, his
books inspire empathy.
Do you have many queer authorsliving in the area?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah, we do.
We have a lot of queer poets.
We have some that write fiction.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
That's great.
How many of their books do youcarry?
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Yeah, I don't know how many we're carrying right
now.
I'm looking at the shelf withour local authors.
I would say we carry about 40local authors right now and
anytime anyone reaches out I'malways willing to review if I'm
worried it doesn't fit, butusually it's pretty, pretty
obvious that it fits.
So, even some self-publishedthings, you know we have a
little bit of everything.
We try to get them all signedand sell them as signed copies
(15:36):
because people really enjoy that.
And then we we've had multiplelocal author events where we
bring in authors and sometimeslike just for a poetry reading,
and then one time we tried alarger event where we brought in
about 10 local artists at onetime.
So yeah, we have a lot of localartists and more and more
reaching out.
We have local artists coming inand bringing children's books
(15:57):
and doing children's story hoursand yeah.
So we've had a lot of supportand we're trying now to figure
out a way to work with our localqueer artists to do some
commission based like hanging ofwork and stuff.
We're so small, we don't have alot of room, so we're trying to
figure out what the best way todo that is.
So we can, you know, showdifferent, I guess, ways.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah, have you read the Sister Holiday mystery
series?
It's published by Gillian Flynnthrough Zando.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
I haven't, but we have it.
We have the series.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Yeah, I've read Scorched Grace.
I've got Blessed Water, which Ihaven't read yet, but I found
it fantastic.
I think it's gritty, it's kindof dark, it's mysterious.
I'm so happy that Gillian ispublishing these books.
It's really exciting.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Oh yeah, I'll have to read it.
Yeah, we have the.
I think there are three nowright In the series.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah, maybe I just have the two right now.
Let's talk about publishing.
Has the rise in independentqueer bookstores helped
publishers realize that there isa need for more books written
by queer authors and books aboutthe LGBTQ plus community, and
are there any publishers you'dlike to acknowledge?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
I was thinking about that and it's kind of one of
those chicken and egg questionsto me.
I'm not sure I mean you couldhave had a queer bookstore at
any time, but like the amount ofbooks and amount of access we
have to queer authors and queerbooks now is just unprecedented.
It feels like the growth inqueer bookstores might have come
(17:28):
after that trend started, butI'm not sure, you know, I'm sure
it does help and uh, especiallylike even local queer authors
who don't have publishers andstuff, knowing that there are
places that they could publishprobably gives them that extra
bump to say, yeah, yeah, wecould do that, but yeah, I don't
know what started first.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Well, one thing I have noticed is that over the
last five years, I'veinterviewed a couple of hundred
independent bookshop owners andbooksellers globally, as well as
authors, and something thatthey've all noted is that, since
COVID, publishers realized acouple of things.
First of all, people lovereading books.
In have more books written bythe LGBTQ plus community.
(18:10):
We need to have more bookswritten by people with
disabilities.
Because of that reason,customers want to see themselves
(18:32):
on bookshelves in bookshops andin libraries.
But you know what, before I goany further, I do want to step
back a little bit.
You mentioned that you hadwritten books, so could you tell
us a little bit about yourbooks, baker, please?
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yeah, so far I have written academic books.
I have a book called Trans Menin the South, so I do a lot of
gender and sexuality in theSouth.
I have a book about MississippiChristians' views on gay and
lesbian civil rights.
It's a little older.
That was based on mydissertation.
I have a book about drag kingsin the South and currently I'm
working on a book about lesbianidentity.
So that's my academic writing.
(19:07):
But I would also love to writefiction.
I've written some but haven'thad the time or energy between
my job and this job to publishit yet.
But that's my goal.
It's like I said, getting outof academia into running the
bookstore, and writing would bemy goal, and I think there are
some projects I want to do thatare fiction and some that are
(19:29):
nonfiction.
Have you read yet the bookshop?
The History of the AmericanBookstore.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
I have it, but I haven't read it as yet, and
that's by Evan Friss, and hiswife owns a bookshop called
Parentheses Books.
It's in Harrisonburg, virginia.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Yeah, it just came out.
You have to read it.
It's all about the differenttypes of independent bookstores
and the fight against likeBarnes and Noble and Amazon, but
also it talks about the firstblack you know on bookstore.
The first queer on bookstoretalked a little about feminist
bookstores and that made me likethink.
And then I I got someinformation from a lesbian
(20:07):
scholar, julie Enzer.
I don't know if you've everheard of her work.
She created a database with allthese archives from feminist
bookstores through the US,through I don't know since, like
their beginnings, and I'mthinking that would be a really
cool project learning more aboutqueer, feminist, radical
bookshops like that, because thebookshop, the American History,
(20:27):
it's very broad and I thinkfocusing in on those radical
bookshops would be also a veryfun project.
That's really needed.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah, one of the projects I would like to work on
is the history of radicalbookshops globally.
Some of the stories I've readabout the heartache and the
courage of women and men whohave, throughout history, worked
to tell the truth through booksand flyers.
It just amazes me, and I thinkthey deserve a voice, so I would
(20:56):
love to do a documentary onthem.
Before I forget, there's anauthor in a book that I want to
tell you about.
The author is Paul Rudnick.
He's a screenwriter.
He is a playwright.
He's wonderful.
He's written many books, butone of them, which I spoke with
him about a couple of years ago,is Farrell Covington and the
Limits of Style.
(21:17):
I'm sure it would be awonderful book for you to carry
in the bookshop.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Take a picture of it while you're holding it up.
I was going to say too, beforeI forget it, like with the
podcast, I would love like,because I'm really interested in
the history as well.
If you need people involved inthe research and the stuff, yeah
, I would love that.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Over the documentary of the history of the radical
bookshops?
That would be awesome.
Okay, madeline, I have aquestion for you.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I counted about 43 queer independent bookshops in
the US and it's growing.
Does that sound about right toyou?
That sounds right.
I counted them not too long agoand that's about the number
that I remember getting in theUnited States.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Is there a camaraderie between all of you?
Speaker 3 (22:03):
meeting with Under the Umbrella out of Salt Lake
City, utah, because they have avery similar model to us queer
bookstore.
They're much bigger but andalso they're in like small city,
you know, not that queerfriendly.
And so we talked quite a bitand then the American Bookseller
Association set me up with asmall feminist bookseller which
I haven't gotten a chance towork with much, but we've
started to develop arelationship.
(22:24):
And then the local, just likeour independent bookstore here,
like the more generalindependent bookstore, we have a
good relationship with them aswell.
They helped us get startedreally.
So, yeah, yeah, we have that.
I think we could build on that,especially when we're talking
about 43 places.
Right, that's manageable tocreate some kind of at least
some kind of network.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great idea.
Now has Queer Haven Books beenaffected by book bans.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
I would say it's helped us, which is the opposite
.
We always had banned books, butwe have focused on getting more
and they sell quickly Peopleprobably want all of them banned
.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, it all stems from fear.
Fear and ignorance, right.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
It does.
Yeah, yeah.
And in South Carolina there's10 books being challenged in
Beaufort.
Well, we passed a law where ifthey're banned by the school,
then it could go to the schoolboard.
If the school board bans it,then they're out of every
library in South Carolina that'spublicly funded.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
But they can't take them out of your bookshop.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
No, because we're private.
Yeah, so only if you'refederally funded or you've
received some type of federalfunding so they could take it
out of a nonprofit bookshop.
I guess, technically, if theyhave any federal funding, if
those 10 books are banned andI'm not sure if the vote has
happened South Carolina is up tohave the most banned books in
the US.
But we have people come in hereevery day like I got to get
(23:41):
this before it's sold out, or Igot to get this because people
are talking about it, so likethey're actually helping us in
some way, which is not okay,like we don't.
It's not worth it for us, right?
We don't want that, but theyhaven't harmed us because we can
continue to carry them andwe're some of the only places
that have like so many.
(24:02):
Yeah, when people ask what wehave our band I was like we have
a lot of band books and therest would be banned if they
knew they existed.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
For anyone interested I recommend googling penorg
forward slash, band hyphen books, hyphen week, forward slash,
and I'll make sure to put thatin the show notes.
But I was shocked when I sawhow many banned books were in
California, because you knowwe're pretty liberal here.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Yeah, I was on a federal grant.
I was on the advisory board.
It wasn't my grant to studytrans rural lives in the Pacific
Northwest and they just cut thefunding April 1st from the
government.
But talking about those redstates and what's happening with
queers in those rural areas,yeah, it was like a $600,000
(24:49):
federal grant and it was cut onApril 1st.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
But, like you're saying, they're very different.
We think California, butthere's very different things
happening in Northern ruralCalifornia than in the city.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, in Central California too.
Okay, let's talk about books.
You're reading Madeline.
How about you go first?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I'm reading a book on bisexuality.
I run the nonfiction book cluband so I do a lot of sex and
sexuality.
That's what the book club isbased on, so I'm reading that on
bisexuality.
Then I'm also reading thesecond book in the fourth wing
series.
When we started the bookstore,I was halfway through the second
one, and then when you open abookstore, you don't read books
(25:29):
anymore.
Really sometimes.
I know, I know, but I had toput it down just because we were
so busy.
So when the third one came out,I restarted them.
So I'm in the second one rightnow and we're listening to one
together.
What book is that?
Speaker 3 (25:42):
uh, we're listening to the impossible life by matt
haig together.
I don't know if I'd call itqueer, but it's well.
Maybe it's all aboutenvironmentalism.
We would probably carry it um,because it's all about
environmentalism and saving theplanet.
And, yeah, and the bi.
When you're reading it's likeit's called by the history and
culture and something ofbisexuality.
(26:03):
It's yeah and um, right now I'mreading stone butch blues.
I haven't read stone butchblues all the way through ever
because it's such a hard read.
It's by leslie feinberg.
It was written in the early 90sand it's about witches in new
york's in the 50s and 60s andit's a it's fiction, but it's
very, uh, autobiographicalfiction.
(26:23):
Um, the main character isexperiencing.
It's very hard read.
I mean a book from the 90s witha trigger warning, you know,
tells you something.
It's, it's hard, but, um, wejust had our book club for it
last night.
What you said about fictioncreating or building empathy is
definitely so true and and thatbook everybody should read
sunbush blues and lesliefeinberg lost the publisher,
(26:48):
went out of business and theylost the rights to their own
book and they finally got therights back to their book later
in life.
They I think they passed awayin 2002 but got the books back
later in life, and so now it'sfree um pdf or ebook, or you can
print on demand and after Ifully read it.
And so now it's free PDF orebook, or you can print on
demand and after I fully read it, and all that it's very
anti-capitalist.
So we're selling them forexactly what we pay to print on
(27:10):
demand, making no profit off ofthem as a like anti-capitalist
solidarity with Feinberg.
Yeah, so I'm reading that andI'm also reading the Night
Watchman.
It was a Pulitzer Prize winner.
I can't remember if it was 2024or which year and it's about.
It's set in the 1950s when thegovernment was trying to take
more land out in Utah and NorthDakota South Dakota from Native
(27:34):
people.
Well, they call themselvesIndians in the book and they're
trying to take their land.
Very, very good book.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Well, thanks for the recommendations.
Where can people find youonline and in your brick and
mortar bookshop?
Speaker 2 (27:46):
We're at queerhavenbookscom, we're on
Instagram and Facebook as QueerHaven Books, and then we're
located in the Ardcade.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Mall 1332 Main Street , 29201.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Unit 120.
Yeah and yeah, suite 120, themall and um, only about three
blocks up from the capitolbuilding, like I said so online
on our website you can orderbooks for shipping and we've
actually gotten our onlineorders have seemed to have gone
up a little bit recently, whichis interesting and great yeah,
people, even from around thecountry choosing to support
(28:20):
small local queer businessesrather than Amazon has been very
cool that we're starting tobuild a little bit.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
It's still slow in the online.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yeah, in an in-person event the other day it was all
about the environment.
It was with an author namedEdward Humes who has written a
lot about the environment.
He's written a great bookcalled Total Garbage, and we
started talking about what Ithink is one of the main issues
with people ordering onlinethrough Amazon.
(28:49):
We have become a society whoexpects instant gratification,
and if you look at peopleordering books online from
Amazon because they want it thenext morning to be delivered at
like three o'clock in themorning or something, rather
than order through theirindependent bookshop, it's just
crazy.
You know, yeah, it might takeone extra day to arrive, but
(29:11):
they work hard to get it thereto you as quickly as possible.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yeah, and that's what the book the bookshop, american
History of the Bookstore wastalking about too.
And I didn't even know thatAmazon I think it was all in
California tried to openin-person bookstores and people
hated them and they quit.
Because the reason you go to abookshop is not instant
gratification, it's to readsomething you've never read,
(29:35):
it's to talk to the booksellers,it's to have an experience.
Right, it's an experiencerather than an instant
gratification, and the bookyou're planning to buy might not
be the book that's going to bebest for you.
And that's what's cool aboutbooksellers too, as you know,
having done it, is that you canbe like yeah, everybody likes
that one, but here's why itwasn't my favorite, but I think
(29:57):
you would like this one better,and so I think that community
and those relationships are whatare bringing people back to
independent bookshop.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Yeah, I was curious.
So I did go into one of theAmazon bookstores in Los Angeles
and, yeah, I wasn't impressed.
I walked straight back outagain.
Most of the books were frontfacing and I don't think that's
necessary, especially in a smallindependent bookshop.
You cannot do that.
You just don't have the space.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
So they took all of this knowledge about how to do
it and they put it together andit didn't work because they left
out the booksellers.
They had young people payingthem barely nothing, that knew
nothing about books and that'swhy people didn't want to go
there.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah, it gets back to building relationships between
booksellers and customers andreaders.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Why go there when you could order have it delivered?
Right, it's the same thing.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Baker and Madeline, thank you so much for being a
guest on the Bookshop Podcastand I wish you all the best with
Queer Haven Books.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Thank you.
Thank you for doing what you'redoing and talking to people and
sharing why independentbookstores matter.
And yeah, definitely read thebookshop.
Read the bookshop history,you're going to love it.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
You've been listening to my conversation with Baker
Rogers and Madeline Courtney,owners of Queer Haven Books in
South Carolina.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media and remember to
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
(31:31):
thebookshoppodcastcom and makesure to subscribe and leave a
review wherever you listen tothe show.
You can also follow me at MandyJackson Beverly on X, instagram
and Facebook and on YouTube atthe Bookshop Podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
(31:53):
the contact form atthebookshoppodcastcom.
Shop podcast is written andproduced by me, mandy
Jackson-Beverly, theme musicprovided by Brian Beverly,
executive assistant to Mandy,adrian Otterhan and graphic
design by Francis Perala.
Thanks for listening and I'llsee you next time.
Bye.
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson-Beverly and I'm a
bibliophile.
Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
Each week, I present interviewswith authors, independent
bookshop owners and booksellersfrom around the globe and
publishing professionals.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media, and remember to
(00:33):
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
You're listening to episode 296.
This episode is brought to youby Saturn Press.
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I'll see you there.
Now let's get on with thisweek's interview.
Queer Haven Books is SouthCarolina's only independent
queer bookstore and is co-ownedby Baker Rogers and Matalyn
Courtney.
The name of the bookstore,queer Haven Books, is based on
their mission to provide a placeof safety and refuge for the
queer community in the southernUnited States.
(02:00):
Their hope is to be a safehaven from the many worries of
the world.
They define queer broadly toinclude all genders and
sexualities that go againstestablished norms, but also
politically as pushback againstall phobias and isms,
discrimination and violence inour society.
Hi, baker and Madeline, andwelcome to the show.
(02:22):
It's great to have you here,and how are you both?
Speaker 3 (02:25):
Great, thank you Doing as good as we can in these
political times, but we'rehappy to be here.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Yeah, these are strange times and scary times
for so many people.
I'm excited to learn aboutQueer Haven Books.
What was the impetus behind anassociate professor of sociology
and a registered nurse to opena queer indie bookshop in South
Carolina?
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Okay, well, it was kind of my brainchild, so I'll
start there.
Also, I'll be full professor inthe fall.
I just had to throw that inbecause I just found out.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
Congratulations.
That's wonderful.
It's a lot of hard work, anddoes that mean you'll receive
tenure?
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I already have tenure as an associate, but I'll pull,
which is the yeah, basicallythe end of the career ladder.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
That's great news.
I hope you're celebrated Welldone, thank you, yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
So I've been struggling with academia for a
while.
It's in a chaos, as you know,related to the politics, but
especially in the Southeast allthe way back it's going in the
wrong direction.
So I wanted to kind of figureout a way to do what I love
while also creating an exitstrategy from academia.
(03:34):
And I lived in Columbia, southCarolina, about 15 years ago and
I wanted to open a queer barfor queer space.
15 years later, I'm 40.
Now I did not want to open abar.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah, our dreams change as we get older, right?
Speaker 3 (03:49):
Oh yeah, so I'm a sociologist and a social worker
and I have my research is ingender and sexuality and I've
written a few books and I justwanted a place where books like
that written a few books and Ijust wanted a place where books
like that, but also like allkinds of books, could be shared
and education could be shared ina lot less controlled
(04:11):
environment than academia thesedays.
So I got the idea to open abookstore and I just ran with it
Probably, so so fast I didn'tthink to stop.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Well, you know what?
Sometimes you just have to runwith an idea.
Overthinking something can be alittle debilitating.
That's been my experienceanyway.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Yeah, exactly, yeah, yeah, definitely yeah, if I
would have stopped and thoughttoo much.
I mean, I have a lot of friendswho have been planning books or
planning small businessesforever and, like you, can take
forever to plan all the details.
So that did not happen.
We just we just went for it.
At the time, maddie was stillis, but was by.
(04:53):
She likes me to call her myperson, my partner, but we call
each other person.
So she was my person and shetagged along for the ride and
now she a co-owner and does morework than me.
So I'll let Maddie talk aboutthat.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Maddie, before you answer that, I just want to say
thank you for being a nurse.
My hat goes off to anybody inthe medical profession,
especially over the last sixyears.
It's been extremely tough and Idon't think medical
professionals can ever bethanked enough.
So thank you.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
It's my pleasure, thank you.
And then getting to Bakerstarting the Burt's store.
Yeah, it was her baby, like shesaid, we were dating at the
time and so I just fell into it,and then in March she offered
for me to be part owner.
So here we are.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So there's actually two of you and a silent partner.
How many people do you haveworking for you in the store?
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Yeah, we have three part-time employees.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Now I'm looking at you both.
Now, what am I seeing in thebackground?
Is that an indoor mall or alittle side street?
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Our store is located in the arcade mall on Main
Street in downtown Columbia.
It's the oldest mall inColumbia, South Carolina, so you
can see kind of the beautifullike chandeliers and there's so
much detail on the walls andstuff.
Yeah, a lot of people don'teven know it's here but it's the
oldest indoor mall in Columbia.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Well, it looks gorgeous.
While I was researching youboth and the bookshop, I read an
article where you both describehow Queer Haven Books defines
the word queer.
Can you expand on that please?
Speaker 2 (06:31):
We describe it as more broad than most people do,
and I will let Baker take itover from there.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Yeah, our focus is clearly on gender and sexuality,
so in that way, queer is moretraditional or what most people
would think of, but then, yeah,we also describe it as like any
kind of pushback against thenorms.
I think a lot of people now usequeer as their identity as this
(06:57):
like anti-establishment thingas well, so it's very political.
On the website, we talk aboutpushing back against phobias and
isms all of them, rightTransphobia, homophobia, but
also racism, ableism, ageism,sexism.
So we have, in addition toqueer, lgbtq plus IA books and
(07:19):
authors.
We also have a lot of booksabout anti-racism.
We also have a lot of booksabout anti-racism.
We have a lot of books aboutfeminism, and so all of our
books aren't just about, orwritten by, people who identify
as queer, but what they're doingand fighting back against the
violence and the horrible thingsthat are happening to our
society in our mind makes themqueer politically, so where we
(07:42):
also like to use this more likea radical, the word radical.
Speaker 1 (07:46):
Yeah, I've interviewed a few radical
bookshops on the bookshoppodcast and what I found is the
idea of what is radical isconstantly shifting.
But one of the things inpublishing that I found
interesting is that people arenow publishing zines at home and
, my goodness, some of thesezines are absolutely fantastic.
(08:06):
Do you sell them in?
Speaker 3 (08:07):
the store we sell zines and chapbooks.
Yeah, the zines and chapbooksare definitely, definitely, yeah
, I think, a part of radicalmovements and I think that's
really cool because I mean, wego all the way back, you know,
to the communist manifesto.
Right, this is what, what it isand to be valuable, I think,
little handbooks, how we can dothat or at least make some
(08:29):
changes.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Yeah, yes, and I think radical bookshops have
always been about community andactivism.
Now for now, indie bookshops inthe United States are spaces
where diverse communities cangather and have a conversation.
How does this relate to QueerHaven Books?
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, I think it actually started that way.
I mean it's grown more nowbecause of all the things that
are happening.
But people, I think we'relooking for somewhere to belong,
and I mean we have people whocome in just because they need
to be here, not because theynecessarily want to buy anything
, but they want to be in a spacewhere they feel safe, they're
in a haven.
And then definitely now, with,like I said, all the things,
(09:09):
people are looking for thosespots and definitely I think
that we are one of them and it'sour pleasure to be one of them.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Baker.
What are your thoughts?
Speaker 3 (09:17):
We've been pop-up for a year and then a brick and
mortar.
This month is our yearanniversary.
Our year party comes up on the26th and I like that.
We did 160 events last year,either going out in the
community and doing pop-ups orin our store.
We have three official bookclubs through the store, but we
(09:37):
have other book clubs that meethere all the time.
We have writing like justwriting times, we have queer
open mics, we have queer comedy,we have tarot classes and all
these things.
So I think while we've createdthis large community, we've also
created safe places for asmaller, like more intimate
community, and there's choicesbetween do you want to come to
this political event or do youwant to go a terror class and
(09:59):
build this community?
So there's options for activismand options for radical
politics, but there's alsooptions for queer joy, escapism
a little bit when we need to.
And, like maddie said, we havepeople that sometimes just come
here and sit and say there'snowhere else in columbia they
feel safe to just sit.
(10:20):
Yes, we've definitely built ahuge community over the last two
years and that's still growingmuch more since we have our
brick and mortar now have aplace to meet.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yeah, and I would add I think we all need a safe
place right.
Our humanity isn't defined bythe color of our skin or our
sexuality.
That's kind of a good segueinto my next question, baker.
On the Queer Haven Bookswebsite, under the Meet Our
Staff menu, you wrote, quoteQueer Haven Books is one of the
(10:49):
many ways that I teach mydaughter about love, diversity
and equity.
End quote have you had anyopposition from Columbia
residents about your bookshopand have you been able to
cultivate a growing, acceptingcommunity?
Speaker 3 (11:04):
So where I wanted the bookshop to be located, we
didn't find a place within ourbudget and we ended up in the
mall here and I think it turnedout really well.
We're a 680 square footbusiness, so very small.
A lot of people don't knowabout the mall.
I think we're in some way.
We're right on Main Street,three blocks from the Capitol
building, but we're also likekind of off the beaten path.
(11:26):
You need to know we're here andI think that has really saved
us a lot in terms of we haven'tgotten any pushback and we have
friends all around Union, northCarolina, specifically where
drag story hour and those thingsare being attacked.
Next weekend we have a dragstory hour and we've had three
and no pushback.
We just joined the drag storyhour the national group so we
(11:49):
can be a hub for that here inSouth Carolina because there's
not an affiliate with thenational group but we're able to
do things like that.
We go to Soda City, which is amarket on Main Street, every
Saturday and we set up our tentand we never have problems.
I think and I say all the timeone reason I think is because a
lot of people were like don'tname it queer, don't name it
queer, and I was like, no,that's what I'm naming it
(12:12):
because people know what it is.
If they don't want it, thenjust walk away.
We haven't had people whoneeded to tell us things really
like about it.
They just saw what it was andturned the other way because
it's very clear.
And then you ask about abroader community.
For sure, we have a independentmovie theater two blocks down
Main Street called theNickelodeon.
(12:32):
They had a comedy tour Tuesdaynight is called here to Pee.
It's a complete trans groupdoing a 50 state tour about
politics.
It's comedy but about politics.
And yeah, it's called here toPee.
And we've worked with the NICdoing book to film things, where
(12:52):
we do a book club and they'lldo film.
The Trustus Theater, the localindependent theater, that does
plays, some local and sometraveling plays.
We're on there, all of theirbulletin, all their things.
They advertise for us.
The Richland County Library hasus over multiple times a year
to sell and they just had a hugeevent and they wanted to give
(13:14):
out books at the event and theybought them directly from us.
Yeah, the Harriet HancockCenter is the local LGBT center.
We have a really greatrelationship with them.
And then a couple of counselingcenters that are all queer.
So, yes, the community hasexpanded far outside of the
community we have here.
The larger community wants tosupport us, even in times where
(13:34):
it could be dangerous for placeslike the library to support us.
Support us Even in times whereit could be dangerous for places
like the library to support us.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
They're supporting us fully.
That's good to hear.
You know there's many queerauthors have been on the show,
but there's one in particularwho I adore and that's TJ Klune,
and I'll put the link to acouple of interviews I've done
with him in the show notes.
He shared a great story aboutthe importance of his hometown
library to him and he talksabout the librarian quite a bit.
(14:01):
Has TJ been into the store?
Speaker 3 (14:03):
No, but I would love that.
If you know him, yeah, tell himto come.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
Well, I can definitely put you in touch with
his publicist.
Speaker 3 (14:11):
You can tell him.
I don't know if you can seethis.
That's Chauncey from his book.
Oh, I see it in the window, astuffed animal.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I was first introduced to TJ Klune's writing
by the children's authorElizabeth Bloomley, who owns
Flying Pig Bookstore in Vermont,and she said to me have you
ever read the House in theCerulean Sea?
And I said no, and she saidlook for a copy of it, I'm going
to send you one in the mail.
I started reading the book theday it arrived and couldn't put
(14:46):
it down.
Tj has this gift within hiswriting of bringing magic to the
words.
We are all one.
That's all I'm going to sayabout him.
I just think he's a fabulouswriter and, importantly, his
books inspire empathy.
Do you have many queer authorsliving in the area?
Speaker 2 (14:58):
Yeah, we do.
We have a lot of queer poets.
We have some that write fiction.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
That's great.
How many of their books do youcarry?
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Yeah, I don't know how many we're carrying right
now.
I'm looking at the shelf withour local authors.
I would say we carry about 40local authors right now and
anytime anyone reaches out I'malways willing to review if I'm
worried it doesn't fit, butusually it's pretty, pretty
obvious that it fits.
So, even some self-publishedthings, you know we have a
little bit of everything.
We try to get them all signedand sell them as signed copies
(15:36):
because people really enjoy that.
And then we we've had multiplelocal author events where we
bring in authors and sometimeslike just for a poetry reading,
and then one time we tried alarger event where we brought in
about 10 local artists at onetime.
So yeah, we have a lot of localartists and more and more
reaching out.
We have local artists coming inand bringing children's books
(15:57):
and doing children's story hoursand yeah.
So we've had a lot of supportand we're trying now to figure
out a way to work with our localqueer artists to do some
commission based like hanging ofwork and stuff.
We're so small, we don't have alot of room, so we're trying to
figure out what the best way todo that is.
So we can, you know, showdifferent, I guess, ways.
Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah, have you read the Sister Holiday mystery
series?
It's published by Gillian Flynnthrough Zando.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
I haven't, but we have it.
We have the series.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Yeah, I've read Scorched Grace.
I've got Blessed Water, which Ihaven't read yet, but I found
it fantastic.
I think it's gritty, it's kindof dark, it's mysterious.
I'm so happy that Gillian ispublishing these books.
It's really exciting.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Oh yeah, I'll have to read it.
Yeah, we have the.
I think there are three nowright In the series.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Yeah, maybe I just have the two right now.
Let's talk about publishing.
Has the rise in independentqueer bookstores helped
publishers realize that there isa need for more books written
by queer authors and books aboutthe LGBTQ plus community, and
are there any publishers you'dlike to acknowledge?
Speaker 3 (17:07):
I was thinking about that and it's kind of one of
those chicken and egg questionsto me.
I'm not sure I mean you couldhave had a queer bookstore at
any time, but like the amount ofbooks and amount of access we
have to queer authors and queerbooks now is just unprecedented.
It feels like the growth inqueer bookstores might have come
(17:28):
after that trend started, butI'm not sure, you know, I'm sure
it does help and uh, especiallylike even local queer authors
who don't have publishers andstuff, knowing that there are
places that they could publishprobably gives them that extra
bump to say, yeah, yeah, wecould do that, but yeah, I don't
know what started first.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
Well, one thing I have noticed is that over the
last five years, I'veinterviewed a couple of hundred
independent bookshop owners andbooksellers globally, as well as
authors, and something thatthey've all noted is that, since
COVID, publishers realized acouple of things.
First of all, people lovereading books.
In have more books written bythe LGBTQ plus community.
(18:10):
We need to have more bookswritten by people with
disabilities.
Because of that reason,customers want to see themselves
(18:32):
on bookshelves in bookshops andin libraries.
But you know what, before I goany further, I do want to step
back a little bit.
You mentioned that you hadwritten books, so could you tell
us a little bit about yourbooks, baker, please?
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yeah, so far I have written academic books.
I have a book called Trans Menin the South, so I do a lot of
gender and sexuality in theSouth.
I have a book about MississippiChristians' views on gay and
lesbian civil rights.
It's a little older.
That was based on mydissertation.
I have a book about drag kingsin the South and currently I'm
working on a book about lesbianidentity.
So that's my academic writing.
(19:07):
But I would also love to writefiction.
I've written some but haven'thad the time or energy between
my job and this job to publishit yet.
But that's my goal.
It's like I said, getting outof academia into running the
bookstore, and writing would bemy goal, and I think there are
some projects I want to do thatare fiction and some that are
(19:29):
nonfiction.
Have you read yet the bookshop?
The History of the AmericanBookstore.
Speaker 1 (19:35):
I have it, but I haven't read it as yet, and
that's by Evan Friss, and hiswife owns a bookshop called
Parentheses Books.
It's in Harrisonburg, virginia.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Yeah, it just came out.
You have to read it.
It's all about the differenttypes of independent bookstores
and the fight against likeBarnes and Noble and Amazon, but
also it talks about the firstblack you know on bookstore.
The first queer on bookstoretalked a little about feminist
bookstores and that made me likethink.
And then I I got someinformation from a lesbian
(20:07):
scholar, julie Enzer.
I don't know if you've everheard of her work.
She created a database with allthese archives from feminist
bookstores through the US,through I don't know since, like
their beginnings, and I'mthinking that would be a really
cool project learning more aboutqueer, feminist, radical
bookshops like that, because thebookshop, the American History,
(20:27):
it's very broad and I thinkfocusing in on those radical
bookshops would be also a veryfun project.
That's really needed.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah, one of the projects I would like to work on
is the history of radicalbookshops globally.
Some of the stories I've readabout the heartache and the
courage of women and men whohave, throughout history, worked
to tell the truth through booksand flyers.
It just amazes me, and I thinkthey deserve a voice, so I would
(20:56):
love to do a documentary onthem.
Before I forget, there's anauthor in a book that I want to
tell you about.
The author is Paul Rudnick.
He's a screenwriter.
He is a playwright.
He's wonderful.
He's written many books, butone of them, which I spoke with
him about a couple of years ago,is Farrell Covington and the
Limits of Style.
(21:17):
I'm sure it would be awonderful book for you to carry
in the bookshop.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
Take a picture of it while you're holding it up.
I was going to say too, beforeI forget it, like with the
podcast, I would love like,because I'm really interested in
the history as well.
If you need people involved inthe research and the stuff, yeah
, I would love that.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Over the documentary of the history of the radical
bookshops?
That would be awesome.
Okay, madeline, I have aquestion for you.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I counted about 43 queer independent bookshops in
the US and it's growing.
Does that sound about right toyou?
That sounds right.
I counted them not too long agoand that's about the number
that I remember getting in theUnited States.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Is there a camaraderie between all of you?
Speaker 3 (22:03):
meeting with Under the Umbrella out of Salt Lake
City, utah, because they have avery similar model to us queer
bookstore.
They're much bigger but andalso they're in like small city,
you know, not that queerfriendly.
And so we talked quite a bitand then the American Bookseller
Association set me up with asmall feminist bookseller which
I haven't gotten a chance towork with much, but we've
started to develop arelationship.
(22:24):
And then the local, just likeour independent bookstore here,
like the more generalindependent bookstore, we have a
good relationship with them aswell.
They helped us get startedreally.
So, yeah, yeah, we have that.
I think we could build on that,especially when we're talking
about 43 places.
Right, that's manageable tocreate some kind of at least
some kind of network.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great idea.
Now has Queer Haven Books beenaffected by book bans.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
I would say it's helped us, which is the opposite
.
We always had banned books, butwe have focused on getting more
and they sell quickly Peopleprobably want all of them banned
.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Yeah, it all stems from fear.
Fear and ignorance, right.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
It does.
Yeah, yeah.
And in South Carolina there's10 books being challenged in
Beaufort.
Well, we passed a law where ifthey're banned by the school,
then it could go to the schoolboard.
If the school board bans it,then they're out of every
library in South Carolina that'spublicly funded.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
But they can't take them out of your bookshop.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
No, because we're private.
Yeah, so only if you'refederally funded or you've
received some type of federalfunding so they could take it
out of a nonprofit bookshop.
I guess, technically, if theyhave any federal funding, if
those 10 books are banned andI'm not sure if the vote has
happened South Carolina is up tohave the most banned books in
the US.
But we have people come in hereevery day like I got to get
(23:41):
this before it's sold out, or Igot to get this because people
are talking about it, so likethey're actually helping us in
some way, which is not okay,like we don't.
It's not worth it for us, right?
We don't want that, but theyhaven't harmed us because we can
continue to carry them andwe're some of the only places
that have like so many.
(24:02):
Yeah, when people ask what wehave our band I was like we have
a lot of band books and therest would be banned if they
knew they existed.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
For anyone interested I recommend googling penorg
forward slash, band hyphen books, hyphen week, forward slash,
and I'll make sure to put thatin the show notes.
But I was shocked when I sawhow many banned books were in
California, because you knowwe're pretty liberal here.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Yeah, I was on a federal grant.
I was on the advisory board.
It wasn't my grant to studytrans rural lives in the Pacific
Northwest and they just cut thefunding April 1st from the
government.
But talking about those redstates and what's happening with
queers in those rural areas,yeah, it was like a $600,000
(24:49):
federal grant and it was cut onApril 1st.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
But, like you're saying, they're very different.
We think California, butthere's very different things
happening in Northern ruralCalifornia than in the city.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Yeah, in Central California too.
Okay, let's talk about books.
You're reading Madeline.
How about you go first?
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I'm reading a book on bisexuality.
I run the nonfiction book cluband so I do a lot of sex and
sexuality.
That's what the book club isbased on, so I'm reading that on
bisexuality.
Then I'm also reading thesecond book in the fourth wing
series.
When we started the bookstore,I was halfway through the second
one, and then when you open abookstore, you don't read books
(25:29):
anymore.
Really sometimes.
I know, I know, but I had toput it down just because we were
so busy.
So when the third one came out,I restarted them.
So I'm in the second one rightnow and we're listening to one
together.
What book is that?
Speaker 3 (25:42):
uh, we're listening to the impossible life by matt
haig together.
I don't know if I'd call itqueer, but it's well.
Maybe it's all aboutenvironmentalism.
We would probably carry it um,because it's all about
environmentalism and saving theplanet.
And, yeah, and the bi.
When you're reading it's likeit's called by the history and
culture and something ofbisexuality.
(26:03):
It's yeah and um, right now I'mreading stone butch blues.
I haven't read stone butchblues all the way through ever
because it's such a hard read.
It's by leslie feinberg.
It was written in the early 90sand it's about witches in new
york's in the 50s and 60s andit's a it's fiction, but it's
very, uh, autobiographicalfiction.
(26:23):
Um, the main character isexperiencing.
It's very hard read.
I mean a book from the 90s witha trigger warning, you know,
tells you something.
It's, it's hard, but, um, wejust had our book club for it
last night.
What you said about fictioncreating or building empathy is
definitely so true and and thatbook everybody should read
sunbush blues and lesliefeinberg lost the publisher,
(26:48):
went out of business and theylost the rights to their own
book and they finally got therights back to their book later
in life.
They I think they passed awayin 2002 but got the books back
later in life, and so now it'sfree um pdf or ebook, or you can
print on demand and after Ifully read it.
And so now it's free PDF orebook, or you can print on
demand and after I fully read it, and all that it's very
anti-capitalist.
So we're selling them forexactly what we pay to print on
(27:10):
demand, making no profit off ofthem as a like anti-capitalist
solidarity with Feinberg.
Yeah, so I'm reading that andI'm also reading the Night
Watchman.
It was a Pulitzer Prize winner.
I can't remember if it was 2024or which year and it's about.
It's set in the 1950s when thegovernment was trying to take
more land out in Utah and NorthDakota South Dakota from Native
(27:34):
people.
Well, they call themselvesIndians in the book and they're
trying to take their land.
Very, very good book.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
Well, thanks for the recommendations.
Where can people find youonline and in your brick and
mortar bookshop?
Speaker 2 (27:46):
We're at queerhavenbookscom, we're on
Instagram and Facebook as QueerHaven Books, and then we're
located in the Ardcade.
Speaker 3 (27:54):
Mall 1332 Main Street , 29201.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Unit 120.
Yeah and yeah, suite 120, themall and um, only about three
blocks up from the capitolbuilding, like I said so online
on our website you can orderbooks for shipping and we've
actually gotten our onlineorders have seemed to have gone
up a little bit recently, whichis interesting and great yeah,
people, even from around thecountry choosing to support
(28:20):
small local queer businessesrather than Amazon has been very
cool that we're starting tobuild a little bit.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
It's still slow in the online.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
Yeah, in an in-person event the other day it was all
about the environment.
It was with an author namedEdward Humes who has written a
lot about the environment.
He's written a great bookcalled Total Garbage, and we
started talking about what Ithink is one of the main issues
with people ordering onlinethrough Amazon.
(28:49):
We have become a society whoexpects instant gratification,
and if you look at peopleordering books online from
Amazon because they want it thenext morning to be delivered at
like three o'clock in themorning or something, rather
than order through theirindependent bookshop, it's just
crazy.
You know, yeah, it might takeone extra day to arrive, but
(29:11):
they work hard to get it thereto you as quickly as possible.
Speaker 3 (29:15):
Yeah, and that's what the book the bookshop, american
History of the Bookstore wastalking about too.
And I didn't even know thatAmazon I think it was all in
California tried to openin-person bookstores and people
hated them and they quit.
Because the reason you go to abookshop is not instant
gratification, it's to readsomething you've never read,
(29:35):
it's to talk to the booksellers,it's to have an experience.
Right, it's an experiencerather than an instant
gratification, and the bookyou're planning to buy might not
be the book that's going to bebest for you.
And that's what's cool aboutbooksellers too, as you know,
having done it, is that you canbe like yeah, everybody likes
that one, but here's why itwasn't my favorite, but I think
(29:57):
you would like this one better,and so I think that community
and those relationships are whatare bringing people back to
independent bookshop.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Yeah, I was curious.
So I did go into one of theAmazon bookstores in Los Angeles
and, yeah, I wasn't impressed.
I walked straight back outagain.
Most of the books were frontfacing and I don't think that's
necessary, especially in a smallindependent bookshop.
You cannot do that.
You just don't have the space.
Speaker 3 (30:26):
So they took all of this knowledge about how to do
it and they put it together andit didn't work because they left
out the booksellers.
They had young people payingthem barely nothing, that knew
nothing about books and that'swhy people didn't want to go
there.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
Yeah, it gets back to building relationships between
booksellers and customers andreaders.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Why go there when you could order have it delivered?
Right, it's the same thing.
Speaker 1 (30:49):
Baker and Madeline, thank you so much for being a
guest on the Bookshop Podcastand I wish you all the best with
Queer Haven Books.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
Thank you.
Thank you for doing what you'redoing and talking to people and
sharing why independentbookstores matter.
And yeah, definitely read thebookshop.
Read the bookshop history,you're going to love it.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
You've been listening to my conversation with Baker
Rogers and Madeline Courtney,owners of Queer Haven Books in
South Carolina.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media and remember to
subscribe and leave a reviewwherever you listen to this
podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
(31:31):
thebookshoppodcastcom and makesure to subscribe and leave a
review wherever you listen tothe show.
You can also follow me at MandyJackson Beverly on X, instagram
and Facebook and on YouTube atthe Bookshop Podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
(31:53):
the contact form atthebookshoppodcastcom.
Shop podcast is written andproduced by me, mandy
Jackson-Beverly, theme musicprovided by Brian Beverly,
executive assistant to Mandy,adrian Otterhan and graphic
design by Francis Perala.
Thanks for listening and I'llsee you next time.
Bye.
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