December 10, 2025 • 34 mins
In this episode, I chat with Amanda and Anthony Stromoski, co-owners of Rough Draft Bar & Books located at Kingston, New York's historic four corners.
What if your favorite bookstore also poured a perfect espresso and kept an impeccable tap list? Amanda and Anthony explain how a 1774 schoolhouse became a living room for the Hudson Valley. From Brooklyn careers to a life anchored in community, they share the turning points—personal loss, a craving for connection, and a decade of dreaming—that led to opening a bookstore-bar where people want to linger.
We dig into the choices that shape trust and atmosphere: building with reclaimed wood and approachable furniture, prioritizing comfort over polish, and crafting a bar and coffee program that serves readers from morning to late night. On the shelves, their mantra—something for everyone, not all things to all people—guides a curated mix of literary fiction, evolving genre sections, and a standout local interest collection: Catskills hiking guides, Hudson Valley geology and architecture, and beloved regional cookbooks. They break down how staff picks, customer requests, and real-time feedback keep the selection fresh and relevant.
Beyond the shop, we map the region’s creative heartbeat. Expect insider recs for Overlook Mountain, Huckleberry Point, and the rugged Devil’s Path, plus a post-hike stop at West Kill Brewing. We also spotlight neighboring indie bookstores—Spotty Dog Books and Ale in Hudson and the Golden Notebook in Woodstock—that helped inspire Rough Draft’s hybrid model. The conversation closes with two standout reads: Álvaro Enrigue’s You Dreamed of Empires for its empathy-forward perspective on history, and David Litt’s It’s Only Drowning for the lessons of learning hard things as an adult.
If you love independent bookshops, Hudson Valley travel, Catskills hikes, craft beer, and the art of thoughtful curation, you’ll feel right at home here.
Subscribe, share this episode with a friend who needs a new third place, and leave a review to help more listeners discover the show.
You Dreamed of Empires, Álvaro Enrigue
It’s Only Drowning, David Litt
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:10):
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson Beverly, and I'm a
bibliophile.
Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
Each week I present interviewswith authors, independent
bookshop owners and booksellersfrom around the globe, and
publishing professionals.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media.
(00:32):
And remember to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to this podcast.
You're listening to episode 315.
This past week, I was invited toand attended a wonderful high
tee at the University Club inSanta Barbara to celebrate Jane
(00:54):
Austen's 250th birthday.
It's always lovely gatheringwith a community of readers, and
the University Club members puton a delicious high tee with
readings by actors from theEnsemble Theatre Company from
their latest play titled TheComplete Works of Jane Austen, A
Bridge.
Tickets for the show areavailable at etcsb.org.
(01:19):
Please let me know if you'redoing anything special to
celebrate Jane Austen's birthdayon December the 16th.
Okay, let's get started withthis week's interview.
Rough Draft Bar and Books is abar and bookstore located at
Kingston, New York's historicfour corners, owned by Amanda
and Anthony Stromowski.
(01:40):
Along with offering a curatedselection of new books, they are
dedicated to providing afantastic selection of beer,
cider, wine, counterculturecoffee, local pastries, and
savory pies.
Rough Draft is a place forpeople from Kingston and beyond
to gather together for reading,drinking, conversation, and
(02:02):
nightly events.
Hi, Amanda and Anthony, andwelcome to the show.
It's great to have you here.
Thanks, you two.
SPEAKER_00 (02:08):
Thanks for having us.
SPEAKER_01 (02:09):
Let's begin with learning about you both and the
moment when you first connected.
What stood out to you about eachother then?
And how has that evolved asco-founders and partners in life
and business?
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Okay.
So we we met um a while back.
We met when we were 13.
We're from the same uh smallhometown or two very small towns
next to each other, and we wentto high school together.
Um and we met at Summer Bandwhen we were 13.
And as a 13-year-old boy, Ithink the thing I was most
(02:44):
interested in is that I thoughtshe was cute and that she had a
great smile and she paidattention to me.
And I just thought I justthought she was she was
extremely sweet.
And um so I we probablyconnected on very superficial um
points at at first.
As 13-year-olds do.
SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
And I want to ask, what instruments did you play?
SPEAKER_02 (03:07):
I played clarinet.
SPEAKER_00 (03:08):
And I was a percussionist.
SPEAKER_01 (03:09):
And Amanda, was it the same kind of feeling for
you?
SPEAKER_02 (03:13):
Yeah, yeah, you know, uh the drummers were the
were the popular boys in theband, and and uh I also thought
Anthony was very cute and um butalso very smart and very nice.
And um yeah, he was just like wewe became friends really quickly
and and we dated on and offthrough high school, but we've
always been best friends and umwe've inspired each other and
(03:37):
helped each other learn andyeah, mostly some some uh some
breaks, as she said.
SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
But we've been we've been best friends and mostly
together for um wow, like 28years now.
SPEAKER_02 (03:49):
And one of the one of the motivations for for
opening Rough Draft was that sowe could work together every
day.
You know, we've we've always haduh before this we had separate
careers and um wanted to, youknow, be able to go to work
together every day, spend timetogether every day, which we
definitely do now.
SPEAKER_01 (04:07):
How is that?
I mean, you must have someconflicts, right?
SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
Yeah, I mean nobody nobody could say could say
otherwise, but we've gottenpretty good at you know
compromising and and workingthrough things in a way that we
can help each other see theother one's perspective, and we
usually end up agreeing in theend.
SPEAKER_00 (04:27):
I think our our skill sets are very
complementary to each other andour approaches are are different
but complementary, and so that'sreally allowed us over time to
build a great partnership um athome but also at work.
SPEAKER_01 (04:40):
And what do both of you bring to the table?
What are your skill sets?
SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
I would say that um well I was I was trained as a
teacher.
I was a high school Latinteacher and uh soccer and
basketball coach, and then aschool administrator before we
did this.
Um I would say in ourpartnership um and in our
relationship, I'm more of adreamer, big picture, big
(05:08):
picture, big ideas, um, justpush ahead, um, not as concerned
with the details or all of thechallenges at the outset.
Um, I I would say Amanda is muchmore detail-oriented, she's much
more of a careful planner.
Um I'm probably more of anoutgoing people person
(05:30):
sometimes, at least when itcomes to working with our teams
at work.
Um and Amanda is the personbehind the scenes that really
gets a lot of the trickypaperwork and numbers and um
communications with uh customersand things like that, that is
really difficult for me.
Do you want to add anything?
SPEAKER_02 (05:50):
I think that's pretty good.
SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
Yeah.
It sounds like you both cometogether creatively.
SPEAKER_02 (05:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We've collaborated on, you know,uh we we both handle our social
media, we collaborate on that.
We, you know, we work togetheron making a logo for the store
and you know, merchandise andand everything, kind of
outwardly projecting what ourbrand is, what our mission is,
um, what the look and feel ofthe place is.
(06:16):
So we we pretty much agree onthat stuff almost all the time.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
And you have a clever name, Rough Draft.
Who came up with that?
SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
Uh it was from a friend.
Um, we have to give credit toRyan Joyce, who lives in
Amsterdam right now.
Um, he was a teaching friend ofmine, and we had been batting
around all different names, mostof them with some sort of pun
for years.
Uh, but Ryan was really uh themastermind, and he's he's he's
the pun master in our friendgroup, and he he's the one who
(06:44):
came up with.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
Yeah, it's a clever name.
I like it a lot.
Now, what personal or creativeneeds led you from Brooklyn to
the Hudson Valley?
And how did the vision for RoughDraft emerge from that shift?
And were there any pivotalmoments that crystallized your
concept?
And like me, you enjoy hiking,and I looked up that area, and
it is stunning.
SPEAKER_00 (07:06):
Um, the Hudson Valley is a beautiful place.
We're really fortunate to livehere with so much access to
nature, to hiking and campingand and the mountains.
Um, we absolutely love livinghere.
We also love living in Brooklyn.
We we both lived there for abouta decade.
Um, I as a in I was ineducation.
Amanda was a journalist.
(07:28):
And after 10 years there, Ithink both of us were at a point
in our career where we werelooking for a little bit of a
change.
Living in New York City can alsoweigh on you over time, um,
living in any city.
So we had been batting aroundthis idea for a place like Rough
Draft for many years.
And that as we got to the ninthand 10th years in the city, you
(07:51):
know, a lot of things happened.
My dad passed away that thattenth year.
I think that was a big momentfor me.
I think it crystallized, as yousaid, the idea that I wanted to
spend more time with family.
Um, I wanted to have more of aprofessional partnership with
Amanda and just be able to seeher more and spend more time
with her.
(08:12):
Um, we knew that we loved comingto this area to hike and to camp
and to visit the beautifultowns.
Um, so we started looking in theHudson Valley as a place where
we might be able to land andhopefully um start this business
that we had an idea for.
SPEAKER_02 (08:29):
Yeah, and we visited many towns.
We read many news articlesabout, you know, the next hip
town in the Hudson Valley orupstate.
And we explored a lot of thoseplaces and landed on Kingston
because we spent a few dayshere.
It felt really vibrant.
It felt like there were thatpeople actually lived here.
(08:50):
It wasn't just a weekender town,it wasn't just a commuter town.
People lived here.
Um, there were restaurants,there were bars, there were,
there was an art scene, um,there was music festivals, and
there was not a new bookstore.
Um, there's a Barnes and Nobleout on the highway, and uh
there's there was a usedbookstore in town that was um
closed last year, but was verypopular for many years.
(09:13):
But there was not an independentnew bookstore like there are in
several other Hudson Valleytowns that we looked at.
So we thought that this place,this town, had the people and
had the energy and also had theneed for something like Rough
Draft.
SPEAKER_01 (09:29):
And in journalism, you specialized in a certain
area.
Health writing, health andfitness.
Oh my goodness.
That would be an interesting andfrustrating area to be a
journalist in right now, Ishould imagine.
SPEAKER_02 (09:42):
Yeah, and I mean, honestly, that was also one of
them that was that was I lovedmy job and I loved I was a
freelancer by the time we thatwe left and moved up here, and I
loved it, and I loved the theorganizations that I worked for,
but that industry was gettingharder and harder and less and
less rewarding on a daily basis.
And we wanted to do somethingwhere we were like directly
(10:05):
interacting with people day andyou know making an immediate
difference, even if it's like,you know, a smile and a cup of
coffee or a book recommendationinstead of just sitting behind a
computer all day.
SPEAKER_01 (10:17):
It sounds to me as if you were craving community,
family, friends who love toprobably go hiking like you, and
to be in a position of workwhere you're building a
community within a community.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_00 (10:31):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
I would certainly say the schoolwhere I where I taught in
Brooklyn was also an amazingcommunity.
And I I was very fortunate to beto be at a great school with
kids that I loved and teachersthat that I had great
relationships with.
Um, I think I personally waslooking for more of a chance to
work to work more with adultsand to have a little bit more of
(10:55):
a um work-life balance and uhcloser to a nine to five job,
um, which looking back now islaughable.
SPEAKER_01 (11:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:06):
You know, as an as an educator, I I in in the role
work that I had, um, it wasbecoming almost a
seven-day-a-week on-call at allhours type of job.
And I really, really love thatfor a time.
Um then we opened this business,and now this is also a 24-7.
SPEAKER_01 (11:23):
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, having your own businessas a bar and a bookshop.
Oh my goodness.
Tell me about your employees.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
Yes, yeah, and we have an amazing team, and
they're enabling us more andmore to to build that balance
that we had hoped for.
Um, but we're fortunate enoughto be to be busy enough as a
business that we can, you know,that it is going all hours.
SPEAKER_01 (11:45):
Yeah, it's great to have good employees that allow
you to take a break.
Now, being a lover of history, Iwas drawn to your business by
your building.
What drew you to this particularbuilding and did its history
shape your vision for roughdraft in any unexpected ways?
And if you could share with uswhat makes rough draft different
from a regular bookshop.
SPEAKER_02 (12:05):
Yeah, the building is something that we lucked that
we just kind of lucked out on.
And we we live in theneighborhood um and we would
walk after we moved to Kingstonand started planning our
business.
I was I was working remotelyfull-time, and Anthony was
(12:25):
bartending and working on abusiness plan.
And we at the time when westarted to get serious about
looking for a space, this vacantbuilding that this building that
we walked by every day for ayear and it had been empty and
not really in use, um, suddenlyhad a for rent sign in the
window.
So we were just like rightplace, right time.
(12:48):
We originally thought that itwas um too big for our vision.
But then when we started mappingout, you know, how many couches
we wanted to have and how manytables and seating areas and a
long bar that had lots of seatsat it, we realized it was
actually the perfect size.
But um, it's an old building.
It's your what year?
SPEAKER_00 (13:08):
Um, I think I think our building was built in 1774.
SPEAKER_02 (13:11):
1774 um has been partially reconstructed because
it was burned by the British.
And it is located at um acrossroads that is supposedly
the only intersection in thecountry that has four
pre-Revolutionary War buildingson the corners.
And so it's a really historicbuilding.
(13:32):
It's got big, beautiful windows,it's very um inviting.
It's you kind of just everybodywho walks by wants to just like
see what's going on inside.
It was previously called theKingston Academy.
SPEAKER_00 (13:46):
Um it was I think it was Kingston's first uh
schoolhouse.
SPEAKER_02 (13:50):
It was a it was a it was a two-year college.
Um, it's been a schoolhouse,it's been a printing press, it's
been um a a Sears roebook, it'sbeen um several different
restaurants and bars.
And so we already had a visionfor this, but it kind of fit in
perfectly when we thought, well,this is an old schoolhouse, it's
(14:12):
an old printing press, it's anold meeting place, and let's
fill this up with books andpeople and you know, kind of
bring all that stuff back.
And um, it's it's really coolwhen people come in and people
from who've lived in Kingstontheir whole lives and they say,
Oh, I had my I had my babyshower here when it was this
restaurant, had my firstbartending job here when I was
(14:33):
out of profit.
And so it's it's a it's awell-loved building community,
yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:39):
And what makes your indie bookshop stand out?
SPEAKER_00 (14:42):
So the name is Rough Draft Bar and Books.
Um, our concept when we werebuilding our business plan and
designing the space was a placethat could be sort of a living
room where it would not feellike I think some bookstores
feel like libraries.
This this we wanted to create aplace that people wanted to hang
out and be comfortable and kindof stay for a few hours.
(15:05):
So we built a long, beautifulbar.
We're a beer and wine bar, andwe're fortunate in the Hudson
Valley to be surrounded by agreat uh beer and brewery scene.
So we've got a great beer list.
We decided to put in an espressomachine and uh partner with um a
roaster who could teach us howto make great coffee.
(15:27):
And so that that's a big part ofour business is everyday coffee
scene.
And then we have tons of tablesand couches and chairs where
people can kind of hang out fora couple hours or for a few
minutes and say hi to friends.
We have people who stay all dayand work.
We have events at night liketrivia um and um literary
(15:49):
events.
We wanted to create a placewhere people could come any time
of day or night, be comfortable,grab an alcoholic drink if they
want that, but it's notnecessary.
Um, or even just come in andgrab a book and head out.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:03):
Was there much interior and exterior work that
needed to be done before youcould move in?
SPEAKER_02 (16:09):
Not really.
Uh the owner of the building haddone quite a bit of renovations
previously.
And the main thing that we didwas build the bar.
Um, and we cleared out what usedto be a restaurant kitchen, and
we turned that back space intobook storage, office space.
(16:29):
We had a um a bakery that we nowco-own um in another space,
started out in our back room askind of an incubation area.
We built the tables, we builtthe bookshelves, we brought in
the furniture, but we didn'thave to do that much to the
building itself.
SPEAKER_00 (16:47):
And we should say originally, we originally we all
of our furniture, the bar, um,all of the bookshelves,
everything was made of palletwood and reclaimed wood, which
gave the space a very umdistinct look.
We did that for a couple ofreasons.
It was much cheaper for us as uhnew business owners, but also we
(17:08):
wanted to, we just wanted tomake the space kind of look
comfortable, um, look like aplace where you could put your
feet up on uh a table and not umand not be worried that you were
damaging something really,really expensive.
SPEAKER_01 (17:22):
Yeah, nothing too precious, nothing perfect.
I love the furniture.
In fact, I wanted to ask whobuilt the furniture for you?
SPEAKER_00 (17:30):
Um well, over time, we actually had um one of our
original carpenters who helpedus work on the space.
His name is Anthony Shepherd.
Um, he's actually from England.
Um he's an incredible umcarpenter.
I think his company is AtwoodWoodworks.
And he has he built us acustom-built bar, um, which he
rebuilt for us with nicer woodonce we were able to afford it,
(17:53):
and made us an even nicer bartop.
Um, he built all of our custombookshelves, which which we
learned over time are reallyimportant in the bookstore
industry for taking care of thebooks and keeping them in good
shape for the guests.
And he he's just an incrediblecarpenter.
SPEAKER_01 (18:08):
Yeah, there's a couple of tables and chairs
there that look fantastic.
SPEAKER_02 (18:12):
Yeah, we we do have most of the original tables
still, and that was our umoriginal contractor who we
worked with, and he specializedin building things out of
pallets.
Um, and he built us some customthings.
And then we also have a greatconsignment store right down the
street.
And we've had rotated manydifferent couches and comfy
(18:34):
chairs throughout the years,last a few years.
And then when they when thestuffing starts to fall out, we
walk down the street, we likepick out another one, we chat,
we we drag it down the street.
So that's that's a good resourceto have too, is lots of used
old, beautiful couches.
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
And kudos to you both for using the reclaimed
wood and used furniture.
I am a lover of used furniture.
I drive my husband mad, bringinghome everything I see on the
street.
It drives him nuts.
But I think we've just become asociety of over-consumers and we
don't need to buy new furnitureall the time.
It's crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (19:11):
Yeah, and we also calling the place rough draft,
we just that's kind of the sensewe wanted that it's not it's not
a museum, it's not a library,it's a it's it's a place that's
a little rough around the edges,a little beat up, but just gives
you a sense of comfort, like youknow, like your living room
growing up.
SPEAKER_01 (19:28):
It sounds like a wonderful community you've
created.
Um, how do you balance curatingyour books for a wide audience?
You have locals, tourists,newcomers, while keeping a
distinctive identity and havereader taste surprised you in
any way?
SPEAKER_00 (19:43):
Yeah, I think our philosophy from the beginning
has been something for everyone,not all things to all people.
And so we wanted to have abaseline of opening a place with
all of our favorites.
So we love coffee, we love uhcraft craft beer.
We love books.
Let's start with the things thatwe really love and invite people
(20:04):
from our community to come sharethat with us.
That goes both ways, I think.
That means that people come inand they tell you what you're
missing.
They tell you what they wouldlove to see.
They tell you what they thinkyou should have more of.
And so over time, we've tried tolisten and respond to the
community's desires and needs.
And that's definitely affectedeverything from our draft beer
(20:28):
list to the books that we selland stock.
And Amanda probably talked alittle bit more about how we've
created curated the books.
SPEAKER_02 (20:34):
Yeah, we've we wanted to start out being, you
know, we we had a lot of thecategories that you would find
in most bookstores.
You know, we wanted to be splitkind of down the middle between
we wanted to focus on on fictionand literary fiction.
We've grown and shrunk our kindof genre sections, mystery,
sci-fi throughout the years,based on just kind of the way
(20:57):
that we've organized theshelves.
We I think sell more nonfictionthan I thought we would, more uh
local interest nonfiction.
Um, a lot of our our our readershave really been interested in,
or our community's beeninterested in, you know, social
justice and some selfself-improvement type books.
(21:18):
Uh I see braiding sweet grass onthe shelf behind you, and that's
number one seller.
I think with a lot of indiebookstores, um, that's been just
runaway hit of the last fewyears.
The author um is also somewhatlocal.
I think she teaches at Bard,which is nearby, which probably
helps as well.
But yeah, we've we listened to,you know, our staff or our um
(21:39):
our staff suggestions, but alsoour customers, you know, when
they put in special requests,sometimes we are like, oh, you
want we'll order one copy foryou, and we'll also order one
copy for the shelf, because thisseems like something that
somebody else that we know wouldenjoy.
SPEAKER_01 (21:52):
Yeah, I worked for a while in our local bookstore
here, Bart's Books, and I've gotto say, it's much easier to sell
books that you have read thatyou're interested in, uh, rather
than a whole lot of books thatyou've got no interest in at
all.
I think that that makes itexciting.
And what I've found in mostindie bookshops is that there
are booksellers for individualgroups like or genres I should
(22:16):
say, or nonfiction and fiction,uh horror, literary fiction,
memoir.
And I think that makes it abetter experience for the
customers coming in to look forbooks, especially if they're
gifts.
You spoke a little aboutnonfiction books, but do you get
a lot of tourists coming inspecifically to buy books about
(22:36):
the area, um, you know, thegeography, geology, uh the
seasons, anything like that, orcoffee table books, maps?
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
We we have we have a veryhealthy and decent-sized local
authors section.
And then we also have anothersection that's devoted to hiking
and the Catskills, uh, thegeology of the Hudson Valley,
the history of the architecturein in Kingston and and other
towns nearby.
(23:05):
Um we have books about thereservoirs, we have books about
the water systems, uh, we havebooks about the restaurants and
or we have cookbooks from therestaurants in the Hudson
Valley.
Our our second best-selling bookof all time is um Phoenicia
Diner Cookbook, which is anearby um restaurant.
Um, so we have definitely um,you know, locals want those
(23:25):
books as well.
But yeah, our tourists that wesee on weekends, um, sometimes
they just want them as asouvenir.
Um, sometimes we have deeperconversations with them where
they we help them find a bookabout the area that's gonna be a
great gift for someone um orthat we think would be a great
read for them.
Um so we we try to have we havethose on hand because we, as you
(23:49):
as you asked before, we want towe want to be a great place for
our locals and our regulars tocome every day and we want to
curate for them.
But we also have, you know, as abusiness, we want to have some
of the eye-catching uh weekendercandy type books.
Um easy to grab while they're ontheir way to the register.
SPEAKER_01 (24:08):
That's great.
And it's so nice to hear you sayyou have a local author section.
Let's talk about places inKingston on the Hudson Valley
that have personally inspiredyou creatively or otherwise.
And can you share any hiddengems or places with a story
behind them?
Uh, maybe share some of yourfavorite restaurants, coffee
shops, and hikes for anylisteners considering traveling
(24:31):
to that area.
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
Well, first I want to shout out Spotty Dog Books
and Ale.
Um, they they just celebratedtheir 20th anniversary, and they
are another combo um bookstorebar in a town um called Hudson,
which is about 45 minutes northof us.
And they were definitely anearly inspiration um to us and
for our business.
So we have to give them it'sdefinitely give them credit for
(24:55):
for longevity and um and forinspiring us, and because it's
just an absolute um gem in theHudson Valley.
So that would be my firstrecommendation.
SPEAKER_02 (25:03):
Let's see, some hikes that we love.
There's uh so we're we're fairlyclose to Woodstock, um, which is
you know famous for the musicfestival that did not actually
take place in Woodstock.
But um it's a small town.
It has another amazing bookstorecalled the Golden Notebook.
It has um uh a mountain rightthere in town called Overlook
(25:26):
Mountain, and that is um a hikethat we do fairly often.
It's probably the closestmountain that we can get to and
and summit a peak, you know,fairly, fairly quickly.
It's about five miles roundtrip, but at the top there is an
old abandoned hotel, hotel ruinsthat it's a stone hotel that
burned down um many, many yearsago.
(25:48):
But you can kind of explore,walk around, walk up the steps,
look down into the differentrooms.
And there's also a fire tower,and there's you know, several
fire towers, fire towersthroughout the Catskills where
you can climb up and just takein the amazing view at all
different times of year.
So that's probab that's one ofthe ones that we recommend to to
(26:08):
visitors mostly.
We've also done, we're kind ofworking our way through the 35
highest peaks in the Catskills,35 over 3,500 feet.
There's so many that are just alittle bit more of a drive that
we that we really love.
One of our first long trips intothis area was a backpacking trip
on um what's called the Devil'sPath, which is 25 miles.
(26:32):
Yeah, about a 25-mile hike thatwe did uh over three days with a
friend, and it really remindedus of, you know, it it really
made us want to move here afterspending a few days.
And is that a loop or apoint-to-point hike?
Point-to-point.
So we we took it, we parked andtook a taxi to the beginning and
then got to our at the end.
SPEAKER_00 (26:52):
Yeah, uh, we did that when we were younger.
SPEAKER_02 (26:55):
Yeah, yeah.
The end of Devil's Path isactually very close to one of
our favorite breweries, which isWest Kill Brewing.
And that that is, I think, uhit's not it's it's not hidden in
the sense that people don't knowabout it.
They're very well known, but itis physically hidden, like
geographically kind of hidden,um, down a long road in the
mountains.
(27:15):
And it takes takes about an hourto get there from here, but it's
just a fun escape to go and andthey have amazing beer, they
have a lovely tap room, big firepit, a beautiful lawn.
So it's a great place to spendan afternoon.
SPEAKER_00 (27:29):
I would say our another favorite hike of ours is
called Huckleberry Point.
It's it's just a short 20-minuteor so drive from here, and um
it's not one of the big peaks,it's not over 3,500 feet, but
it's you just get a great umview of the Hudson Valley when
you make it to the top on thisbeautiful uh ledge that pokes
(27:50):
out over the over the trees.
And we've we've been dog peoplesince we moved up here and and
we've we've um taken all threeof our pups up there and gotten
some great photos.
SPEAKER_01 (28:01):
Are you still able to spend time in the mountains
and go hiking?
SPEAKER_00 (28:04):
We aim to get away um at least part of the day on
Sundays and Mondays, if we'relucky, and everything's going
well and nothing's breaking, andnobody needs us to sub in for
them.
Um and we can we can see themountains basically from our
from our front porch, um, which,like you said, is a great is a
great thing.
It calms you as soon as you seethem in the morning.
Um, so sun, yeah, Sundays andMondays we'll we try to get out.
(28:28):
Um, if not for a you know a bigmountain hike.
Um, we have some great lakes andtrails nearby, and we'll just
get out just for a 30, 45-minutewalk with our dog.
SPEAKER_01 (28:37):
Do you have big dogs or little dogs?
SPEAKER_00 (28:39):
Well, we have a 50-pound pit bull mix right now.
His name is Brutus.
So I'd say he's medium-sized,but he has the heart and muscles
of a much bigger dog.
Um, but he loves he loveshiking.
SPEAKER_01 (28:51):
I bet he does.
It's it just always warms myheart when I see a family out
with their dog walking.
I just I I just love it.
Let's talk about books.
What's a book you've readrecently that made you see
something differently in life orin how you run rough draft
barren books?
SPEAKER_00 (29:08):
Well, I I have been recommending this book um to
everyone.
Um it's called You Dreamed ofEmpires.
And I'm gonna make sure I getall the details right here.
Um it's it's a it's an accountof the meeting um between the
(29:29):
Spanish and the Aztecs.
But it's written much more fromthe Aztec point of view.
Um, the author is AlvaroEnrique, and the translator is
Natasha Wimmer.
And to read, to go back andexplore something that we
learned about in history, youknow, in fifth grade, um, to
(29:49):
read it all over again from acompletely different point of
view, where the indigenouspeople have a say-so, where they
have dignity, where they're realpeople, where the women who are
involved are actually actuallyrecognized as human beings.
Um, it's something that I thinkabout all the time now in the
way that we run our business andthe way that we interact with
our team.
Um, it's it speaks to empathy,it speaks to listening, it
(30:13):
speaks to considering otherpoints of view.
Um, it's really, reallyfantastic, fun historical
fiction, but it also sends youaway with a message.
And I I just I love that book.
SPEAKER_01 (30:25):
I need to look up that book.
It sounds fantastic.
And what about you, Amanda?
SPEAKER_02 (30:29):
So I have been recommending this book that came
out.
It's a nonfiction book, it's amemoir, and it's a it's a very
funny book.
It's called It's Only Drowningby David Litt.
And um, David Litt is a formerum, he's a he's a writer, he's a
comedy writer, he's a politicalwriter.
He was a speechwriter for BarackObama, actually, I think is what
(30:52):
he's best known for.
And um he wrote this book abouthow he lived in DC and then the
pandemic hit, and he and hiswife moved to this beach house
that they had bought in NewJersey to be near her family.
So they they move, you know,they left the city like everyone
else did during COVID and theywent to live in New Jersey, and
(31:15):
he kind of fell into adepression because of everything
that was going on, and he umdecided to take up surfing.
And he's not an athletic person,he is not a water person in
general.
So he's doing something totallyout of his comfort zone,
something that he's really badat because you can't be good at
surfing when you first start,and it's scary, and it's you
(31:37):
know, it's there's there's justum uh this insurmountable thing
that you know, you just feellike you're you're getting tiny,
tiny, tiny little bit betterevery day, but it's just this
really difficult thing.
And a lot of the book is aboutthat.
It's about learning how to dosomething as an adult that um
seems hard, seems like past whatyou can do, and just trying over
(32:02):
and over again, and learnlearning to look at your
failures as learning experiencesand as successes and how you can
get better from them.
It was a it's kind of a goodreminder to just think about,
you know, doing hard things anddoing things that we're not
going to be at, and and whythat's good for us physically
and emotionally and mentally.
SPEAKER_01 (32:23):
Sounds like another good recommendation.
Uh, Amanda and Anthony, it hasbeen wonderful chatting with
you.
And it's great learning allabout rough draft bar and books.
Uh, it seems like you're reallybuilding what you set out to do,
and that it's building acommunity around books, food,
drinking, and conversation.
It just sounds fabulous.
(32:44):
And I wish you continued successand thank you for being on the
show.
SPEAKER_00 (32:48):
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01 (32:49):
You've been listening to my conversation
with Amanda and AnthonyStromowski from Rough Draft Bar
and Books.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media.
And remember to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to this podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
(33:10):
thebookshoppodcast.com and makesure to subscribe and leave a
review wherever you listen tothe show.
You can also follow me at MandyJackson Beverly, on Instagram
and Facebook, and on YouTube atThe Bookshop Podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
(33:32):
the contact form atthebookshoppodcast.com.
The Bookshop Podcast is writtenand produced by me, Mandy
Jackson Beverly.
Theme music provided by BrianBeverly and my personal
assistant is Kayleigh Dechinger.
Thanks for listening, and I'llsee you next time.
Hi, my name is Mandy Jackson Beverly, and I'm a
bibliophile.
Welcome to the Bookshop Podcast.
Each week I present interviewswith authors, independent
bookshop owners and booksellersfrom around the globe, and
publishing professionals.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media.
(00:32):
And remember to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to this podcast.
You're listening to episode 315.
This past week, I was invited toand attended a wonderful high
tee at the University Club inSanta Barbara to celebrate Jane
(00:54):
Austen's 250th birthday.
It's always lovely gatheringwith a community of readers, and
the University Club members puton a delicious high tee with
readings by actors from theEnsemble Theatre Company from
their latest play titled TheComplete Works of Jane Austen, A
Bridge.
Tickets for the show areavailable at etcsb.org.
(01:19):
Please let me know if you'redoing anything special to
celebrate Jane Austen's birthdayon December the 16th.
Okay, let's get started withthis week's interview.
Rough Draft Bar and Books is abar and bookstore located at
Kingston, New York's historicfour corners, owned by Amanda
and Anthony Stromowski.
(01:40):
Along with offering a curatedselection of new books, they are
dedicated to providing afantastic selection of beer,
cider, wine, counterculturecoffee, local pastries, and
savory pies.
Rough Draft is a place forpeople from Kingston and beyond
to gather together for reading,drinking, conversation, and
(02:02):
nightly events.
Hi, Amanda and Anthony, andwelcome to the show.
It's great to have you here.
Thanks, you two.
SPEAKER_00 (02:08):
Thanks for having us.
SPEAKER_01 (02:09):
Let's begin with learning about you both and the
moment when you first connected.
What stood out to you about eachother then?
And how has that evolved asco-founders and partners in life
and business?
SPEAKER_00 (02:23):
Okay.
So we we met um a while back.
We met when we were 13.
We're from the same uh smallhometown or two very small towns
next to each other, and we wentto high school together.
Um and we met at Summer Bandwhen we were 13.
And as a 13-year-old boy, Ithink the thing I was most
(02:44):
interested in is that I thoughtshe was cute and that she had a
great smile and she paidattention to me.
And I just thought I justthought she was she was
extremely sweet.
And um so I we probablyconnected on very superficial um
points at at first.
As 13-year-olds do.
SPEAKER_01 (03:04):
And I want to ask, what instruments did you play?
SPEAKER_02 (03:07):
I played clarinet.
SPEAKER_00 (03:08):
And I was a percussionist.
SPEAKER_01 (03:09):
And Amanda, was it the same kind of feeling for
you?
SPEAKER_02 (03:13):
Yeah, yeah, you know, uh the drummers were the
were the popular boys in theband, and and uh I also thought
Anthony was very cute and um butalso very smart and very nice.
And um yeah, he was just like wewe became friends really quickly
and and we dated on and offthrough high school, but we've
always been best friends and umwe've inspired each other and
(03:37):
helped each other learn andyeah, mostly some some uh some
breaks, as she said.
SPEAKER_00 (03:43):
But we've been we've been best friends and mostly
together for um wow, like 28years now.
SPEAKER_02 (03:49):
And one of the one of the motivations for for
opening Rough Draft was that sowe could work together every
day.
You know, we've we've always haduh before this we had separate
careers and um wanted to, youknow, be able to go to work
together every day, spend timetogether every day, which we
definitely do now.
SPEAKER_01 (04:07):
How is that?
I mean, you must have someconflicts, right?
SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
Yeah, I mean nobody nobody could say could say
otherwise, but we've gottenpretty good at you know
compromising and and workingthrough things in a way that we
can help each other see theother one's perspective, and we
usually end up agreeing in theend.
SPEAKER_00 (04:27):
I think our our skill sets are very
complementary to each other andour approaches are are different
but complementary, and so that'sreally allowed us over time to
build a great partnership um athome but also at work.
SPEAKER_01 (04:40):
And what do both of you bring to the table?
What are your skill sets?
SPEAKER_00 (04:44):
I would say that um well I was I was trained as a
teacher.
I was a high school Latinteacher and uh soccer and
basketball coach, and then aschool administrator before we
did this.
Um I would say in ourpartnership um and in our
relationship, I'm more of adreamer, big picture, big
(05:08):
picture, big ideas, um, justpush ahead, um, not as concerned
with the details or all of thechallenges at the outset.
Um, I I would say Amanda is muchmore detail-oriented, she's much
more of a careful planner.
Um I'm probably more of anoutgoing people person
(05:30):
sometimes, at least when itcomes to working with our teams
at work.
Um and Amanda is the personbehind the scenes that really
gets a lot of the trickypaperwork and numbers and um
communications with uh customersand things like that, that is
really difficult for me.
Do you want to add anything?
SPEAKER_02 (05:50):
I think that's pretty good.
SPEAKER_01 (05:51):
Yeah.
It sounds like you both cometogether creatively.
SPEAKER_02 (05:55):
Yeah.
Yeah.
We've collaborated on, you know,uh we we both handle our social
media, we collaborate on that.
We, you know, we work togetheron making a logo for the store
and you know, merchandise andand everything, kind of
outwardly projecting what ourbrand is, what our mission is,
um, what the look and feel ofthe place is.
(06:16):
So we we pretty much agree onthat stuff almost all the time.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (06:21):
And you have a clever name, Rough Draft.
Who came up with that?
SPEAKER_00 (06:24):
Uh it was from a friend.
Um, we have to give credit toRyan Joyce, who lives in
Amsterdam right now.
Um, he was a teaching friend ofmine, and we had been batting
around all different names, mostof them with some sort of pun
for years.
Uh, but Ryan was really uh themastermind, and he's he's he's
the pun master in our friendgroup, and he he's the one who
(06:44):
came up with.
SPEAKER_01 (06:45):
Yeah, it's a clever name.
I like it a lot.
Now, what personal or creativeneeds led you from Brooklyn to
the Hudson Valley?
And how did the vision for RoughDraft emerge from that shift?
And were there any pivotalmoments that crystallized your
concept?
And like me, you enjoy hiking,and I looked up that area, and
it is stunning.
SPEAKER_00 (07:06):
Um, the Hudson Valley is a beautiful place.
We're really fortunate to livehere with so much access to
nature, to hiking and campingand and the mountains.
Um, we absolutely love livinghere.
We also love living in Brooklyn.
We we both lived there for abouta decade.
Um, I as a in I was ineducation.
Amanda was a journalist.
(07:28):
And after 10 years there, Ithink both of us were at a point
in our career where we werelooking for a little bit of a
change.
Living in New York City can alsoweigh on you over time, um,
living in any city.
So we had been batting aroundthis idea for a place like Rough
Draft for many years.
And that as we got to the ninthand 10th years in the city, you
(07:51):
know, a lot of things happened.
My dad passed away that thattenth year.
I think that was a big momentfor me.
I think it crystallized, as yousaid, the idea that I wanted to
spend more time with family.
Um, I wanted to have more of aprofessional partnership with
Amanda and just be able to seeher more and spend more time
with her.
(08:12):
Um, we knew that we loved comingto this area to hike and to camp
and to visit the beautifultowns.
Um, so we started looking in theHudson Valley as a place where
we might be able to land andhopefully um start this business
that we had an idea for.
SPEAKER_02 (08:29):
Yeah, and we visited many towns.
We read many news articlesabout, you know, the next hip
town in the Hudson Valley orupstate.
And we explored a lot of thoseplaces and landed on Kingston
because we spent a few dayshere.
It felt really vibrant.
It felt like there were thatpeople actually lived here.
(08:50):
It wasn't just a weekender town,it wasn't just a commuter town.
People lived here.
Um, there were restaurants,there were bars, there were,
there was an art scene, um,there was music festivals, and
there was not a new bookstore.
Um, there's a Barnes and Nobleout on the highway, and uh
there's there was a usedbookstore in town that was um
closed last year, but was verypopular for many years.
(09:13):
But there was not an independentnew bookstore like there are in
several other Hudson Valleytowns that we looked at.
So we thought that this place,this town, had the people and
had the energy and also had theneed for something like Rough
Draft.
SPEAKER_01 (09:29):
And in journalism, you specialized in a certain
area.
Health writing, health andfitness.
Oh my goodness.
That would be an interesting andfrustrating area to be a
journalist in right now, Ishould imagine.
SPEAKER_02 (09:42):
Yeah, and I mean, honestly, that was also one of
them that was that was I lovedmy job and I loved I was a
freelancer by the time we thatwe left and moved up here, and I
loved it, and I loved the theorganizations that I worked for,
but that industry was gettingharder and harder and less and
less rewarding on a daily basis.
And we wanted to do somethingwhere we were like directly
(10:05):
interacting with people day andyou know making an immediate
difference, even if it's like,you know, a smile and a cup of
coffee or a book recommendationinstead of just sitting behind a
computer all day.
SPEAKER_01 (10:17):
It sounds to me as if you were craving community,
family, friends who love toprobably go hiking like you, and
to be in a position of workwhere you're building a
community within a community.
Is that right?
SPEAKER_00 (10:31):
Yeah, I would agree with that.
I would certainly say the schoolwhere I where I taught in
Brooklyn was also an amazingcommunity.
And I I was very fortunate to beto be at a great school with
kids that I loved and teachersthat that I had great
relationships with.
Um, I think I personally waslooking for more of a chance to
work to work more with adultsand to have a little bit more of
(10:55):
a um work-life balance and uhcloser to a nine to five job,
um, which looking back now islaughable.
SPEAKER_01 (11:04):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (11:06):
You know, as an as an educator, I I in in the role
work that I had, um, it wasbecoming almost a
seven-day-a-week on-call at allhours type of job.
And I really, really love thatfor a time.
Um then we opened this business,and now this is also a 24-7.
SPEAKER_01 (11:23):
Oh my goodness.
Yeah, having your own businessas a bar and a bookshop.
Oh my goodness.
Tell me about your employees.
SPEAKER_00 (11:31):
Yes, yeah, and we have an amazing team, and
they're enabling us more andmore to to build that balance
that we had hoped for.
Um, but we're fortunate enoughto be to be busy enough as a
business that we can, you know,that it is going all hours.
SPEAKER_01 (11:45):
Yeah, it's great to have good employees that allow
you to take a break.
Now, being a lover of history, Iwas drawn to your business by
your building.
What drew you to this particularbuilding and did its history
shape your vision for roughdraft in any unexpected ways?
And if you could share with uswhat makes rough draft different
from a regular bookshop.
SPEAKER_02 (12:05):
Yeah, the building is something that we lucked that
we just kind of lucked out on.
And we we live in theneighborhood um and we would
walk after we moved to Kingstonand started planning our
business.
I was I was working remotelyfull-time, and Anthony was
(12:25):
bartending and working on abusiness plan.
And we at the time when westarted to get serious about
looking for a space, this vacantbuilding that this building that
we walked by every day for ayear and it had been empty and
not really in use, um, suddenlyhad a for rent sign in the
window.
So we were just like rightplace, right time.
(12:48):
We originally thought that itwas um too big for our vision.
But then when we started mappingout, you know, how many couches
we wanted to have and how manytables and seating areas and a
long bar that had lots of seatsat it, we realized it was
actually the perfect size.
But um, it's an old building.
It's your what year?
SPEAKER_00 (13:08):
Um, I think I think our building was built in 1774.
SPEAKER_02 (13:11):
1774 um has been partially reconstructed because
it was burned by the British.
And it is located at um acrossroads that is supposedly
the only intersection in thecountry that has four
pre-Revolutionary War buildingson the corners.
And so it's a really historicbuilding.
(13:32):
It's got big, beautiful windows,it's very um inviting.
It's you kind of just everybodywho walks by wants to just like
see what's going on inside.
It was previously called theKingston Academy.
SPEAKER_00 (13:46):
Um it was I think it was Kingston's first uh
schoolhouse.
SPEAKER_02 (13:50):
It was a it was a it was a two-year college.
Um, it's been a schoolhouse,it's been a printing press, it's
been um a a Sears roebook, it'sbeen um several different
restaurants and bars.
And so we already had a visionfor this, but it kind of fit in
perfectly when we thought, well,this is an old schoolhouse, it's
(14:12):
an old printing press, it's anold meeting place, and let's
fill this up with books andpeople and you know, kind of
bring all that stuff back.
And um, it's it's really coolwhen people come in and people
from who've lived in Kingstontheir whole lives and they say,
Oh, I had my I had my babyshower here when it was this
restaurant, had my firstbartending job here when I was
(14:33):
out of profit.
And so it's it's a it's awell-loved building community,
yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (14:39):
And what makes your indie bookshop stand out?
SPEAKER_00 (14:42):
So the name is Rough Draft Bar and Books.
Um, our concept when we werebuilding our business plan and
designing the space was a placethat could be sort of a living
room where it would not feellike I think some bookstores
feel like libraries.
This this we wanted to create aplace that people wanted to hang
out and be comfortable and kindof stay for a few hours.
(15:05):
So we built a long, beautifulbar.
We're a beer and wine bar, andwe're fortunate in the Hudson
Valley to be surrounded by agreat uh beer and brewery scene.
So we've got a great beer list.
We decided to put in an espressomachine and uh partner with um a
roaster who could teach us howto make great coffee.
(15:27):
And so that that's a big part ofour business is everyday coffee
scene.
And then we have tons of tablesand couches and chairs where
people can kind of hang out fora couple hours or for a few
minutes and say hi to friends.
We have people who stay all dayand work.
We have events at night liketrivia um and um literary
(15:49):
events.
We wanted to create a placewhere people could come any time
of day or night, be comfortable,grab an alcoholic drink if they
want that, but it's notnecessary.
Um, or even just come in andgrab a book and head out.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:03):
Was there much interior and exterior work that
needed to be done before youcould move in?
SPEAKER_02 (16:09):
Not really.
Uh the owner of the building haddone quite a bit of renovations
previously.
And the main thing that we didwas build the bar.
Um, and we cleared out what usedto be a restaurant kitchen, and
we turned that back space intobook storage, office space.
(16:29):
We had a um a bakery that we nowco-own um in another space,
started out in our back room askind of an incubation area.
We built the tables, we builtthe bookshelves, we brought in
the furniture, but we didn'thave to do that much to the
building itself.
SPEAKER_00 (16:47):
And we should say originally, we originally we all
of our furniture, the bar, um,all of the bookshelves,
everything was made of palletwood and reclaimed wood, which
gave the space a very umdistinct look.
We did that for a couple ofreasons.
It was much cheaper for us as uhnew business owners, but also we
(17:08):
wanted to, we just wanted tomake the space kind of look
comfortable, um, look like aplace where you could put your
feet up on uh a table and not umand not be worried that you were
damaging something really,really expensive.
SPEAKER_01 (17:22):
Yeah, nothing too precious, nothing perfect.
I love the furniture.
In fact, I wanted to ask whobuilt the furniture for you?
SPEAKER_00 (17:30):
Um well, over time, we actually had um one of our
original carpenters who helpedus work on the space.
His name is Anthony Shepherd.
Um, he's actually from England.
Um he's an incredible umcarpenter.
I think his company is AtwoodWoodworks.
And he has he built us acustom-built bar, um, which he
rebuilt for us with nicer woodonce we were able to afford it,
(17:53):
and made us an even nicer bartop.
Um, he built all of our custombookshelves, which which we
learned over time are reallyimportant in the bookstore
industry for taking care of thebooks and keeping them in good
shape for the guests.
And he he's just an incrediblecarpenter.
SPEAKER_01 (18:08):
Yeah, there's a couple of tables and chairs
there that look fantastic.
SPEAKER_02 (18:12):
Yeah, we we do have most of the original tables
still, and that was our umoriginal contractor who we
worked with, and he specializedin building things out of
pallets.
Um, and he built us some customthings.
And then we also have a greatconsignment store right down the
street.
And we've had rotated manydifferent couches and comfy
(18:34):
chairs throughout the years,last a few years.
And then when they when thestuffing starts to fall out, we
walk down the street, we likepick out another one, we chat,
we we drag it down the street.
So that's that's a good resourceto have too, is lots of used
old, beautiful couches.
SPEAKER_01 (18:50):
And kudos to you both for using the reclaimed
wood and used furniture.
I am a lover of used furniture.
I drive my husband mad, bringinghome everything I see on the
street.
It drives him nuts.
But I think we've just become asociety of over-consumers and we
don't need to buy new furnitureall the time.
It's crazy.
SPEAKER_00 (19:11):
Yeah, and we also calling the place rough draft,
we just that's kind of the sensewe wanted that it's not it's not
a museum, it's not a library,it's a it's it's a place that's
a little rough around the edges,a little beat up, but just gives
you a sense of comfort, like youknow, like your living room
growing up.
SPEAKER_01 (19:28):
It sounds like a wonderful community you've
created.
Um, how do you balance curatingyour books for a wide audience?
You have locals, tourists,newcomers, while keeping a
distinctive identity and havereader taste surprised you in
any way?
SPEAKER_00 (19:43):
Yeah, I think our philosophy from the beginning
has been something for everyone,not all things to all people.
And so we wanted to have abaseline of opening a place with
all of our favorites.
So we love coffee, we love uhcraft craft beer.
We love books.
Let's start with the things thatwe really love and invite people
(20:04):
from our community to come sharethat with us.
That goes both ways, I think.
That means that people come inand they tell you what you're
missing.
They tell you what they wouldlove to see.
They tell you what they thinkyou should have more of.
And so over time, we've tried tolisten and respond to the
community's desires and needs.
And that's definitely affectedeverything from our draft beer
(20:28):
list to the books that we selland stock.
And Amanda probably talked alittle bit more about how we've
created curated the books.
SPEAKER_02 (20:34):
Yeah, we've we wanted to start out being, you
know, we we had a lot of thecategories that you would find
in most bookstores.
You know, we wanted to be splitkind of down the middle between
we wanted to focus on on fictionand literary fiction.
We've grown and shrunk our kindof genre sections, mystery,
sci-fi throughout the years,based on just kind of the way
(20:57):
that we've organized theshelves.
We I think sell more nonfictionthan I thought we would, more uh
local interest nonfiction.
Um, a lot of our our our readershave really been interested in,
or our community's beeninterested in, you know, social
justice and some selfself-improvement type books.
(21:18):
Uh I see braiding sweet grass onthe shelf behind you, and that's
number one seller.
I think with a lot of indiebookstores, um, that's been just
runaway hit of the last fewyears.
The author um is also somewhatlocal.
I think she teaches at Bard,which is nearby, which probably
helps as well.
But yeah, we've we listened to,you know, our staff or our um
(21:39):
our staff suggestions, but alsoour customers, you know, when
they put in special requests,sometimes we are like, oh, you
want we'll order one copy foryou, and we'll also order one
copy for the shelf, because thisseems like something that
somebody else that we know wouldenjoy.
SPEAKER_01 (21:52):
Yeah, I worked for a while in our local bookstore
here, Bart's Books, and I've gotto say, it's much easier to sell
books that you have read thatyou're interested in, uh, rather
than a whole lot of books thatyou've got no interest in at
all.
I think that that makes itexciting.
And what I've found in mostindie bookshops is that there
are booksellers for individualgroups like or genres I should
(22:16):
say, or nonfiction and fiction,uh horror, literary fiction,
memoir.
And I think that makes it abetter experience for the
customers coming in to look forbooks, especially if they're
gifts.
You spoke a little aboutnonfiction books, but do you get
a lot of tourists coming inspecifically to buy books about
(22:36):
the area, um, you know, thegeography, geology, uh the
seasons, anything like that, orcoffee table books, maps?
SPEAKER_00 (22:44):
Yeah, absolutely.
We we have we have a veryhealthy and decent-sized local
authors section.
And then we also have anothersection that's devoted to hiking
and the Catskills, uh, thegeology of the Hudson Valley,
the history of the architecturein in Kingston and and other
towns nearby.
(23:05):
Um we have books about thereservoirs, we have books about
the water systems, uh, we havebooks about the restaurants and
or we have cookbooks from therestaurants in the Hudson
Valley.
Our our second best-selling bookof all time is um Phoenicia
Diner Cookbook, which is anearby um restaurant.
Um, so we have definitely um,you know, locals want those
(23:25):
books as well.
But yeah, our tourists that wesee on weekends, um, sometimes
they just want them as asouvenir.
Um, sometimes we have deeperconversations with them where
they we help them find a bookabout the area that's gonna be a
great gift for someone um orthat we think would be a great
read for them.
Um so we we try to have we havethose on hand because we, as you
(23:49):
as you asked before, we want towe want to be a great place for
our locals and our regulars tocome every day and we want to
curate for them.
But we also have, you know, as abusiness, we want to have some
of the eye-catching uh weekendercandy type books.
Um easy to grab while they're ontheir way to the register.
SPEAKER_01 (24:08):
That's great.
And it's so nice to hear you sayyou have a local author section.
Let's talk about places inKingston on the Hudson Valley
that have personally inspiredyou creatively or otherwise.
And can you share any hiddengems or places with a story
behind them?
Uh, maybe share some of yourfavorite restaurants, coffee
shops, and hikes for anylisteners considering traveling
(24:31):
to that area.
SPEAKER_00 (24:32):
Well, first I want to shout out Spotty Dog Books
and Ale.
Um, they they just celebratedtheir 20th anniversary, and they
are another combo um bookstorebar in a town um called Hudson,
which is about 45 minutes northof us.
And they were definitely anearly inspiration um to us and
for our business.
So we have to give them it'sdefinitely give them credit for
(24:55):
for longevity and um and forinspiring us, and because it's
just an absolute um gem in theHudson Valley.
So that would be my firstrecommendation.
SPEAKER_02 (25:03):
Let's see, some hikes that we love.
There's uh so we're we're fairlyclose to Woodstock, um, which is
you know famous for the musicfestival that did not actually
take place in Woodstock.
But um it's a small town.
It has another amazing bookstorecalled the Golden Notebook.
It has um uh a mountain rightthere in town called Overlook
(25:26):
Mountain, and that is um a hikethat we do fairly often.
It's probably the closestmountain that we can get to and
and summit a peak, you know,fairly, fairly quickly.
It's about five miles roundtrip, but at the top there is an
old abandoned hotel, hotel ruinsthat it's a stone hotel that
burned down um many, many yearsago.
(25:48):
But you can kind of explore,walk around, walk up the steps,
look down into the differentrooms.
And there's also a fire tower,and there's you know, several
fire towers, fire towersthroughout the Catskills where
you can climb up and just takein the amazing view at all
different times of year.
So that's probab that's one ofthe ones that we recommend to to
(26:08):
visitors mostly.
We've also done, we're kind ofworking our way through the 35
highest peaks in the Catskills,35 over 3,500 feet.
There's so many that are just alittle bit more of a drive that
we that we really love.
One of our first long trips intothis area was a backpacking trip
on um what's called the Devil'sPath, which is 25 miles.
(26:32):
Yeah, about a 25-mile hike thatwe did uh over three days with a
friend, and it really remindedus of, you know, it it really
made us want to move here afterspending a few days.
And is that a loop or apoint-to-point hike?
Point-to-point.
So we we took it, we parked andtook a taxi to the beginning and
then got to our at the end.
SPEAKER_00 (26:52):
Yeah, uh, we did that when we were younger.
SPEAKER_02 (26:55):
Yeah, yeah.
The end of Devil's Path isactually very close to one of
our favorite breweries, which isWest Kill Brewing.
And that that is, I think, uhit's not it's it's not hidden in
the sense that people don't knowabout it.
They're very well known, but itis physically hidden, like
geographically kind of hidden,um, down a long road in the
mountains.
(27:15):
And it takes takes about an hourto get there from here, but it's
just a fun escape to go and andthey have amazing beer, they
have a lovely tap room, big firepit, a beautiful lawn.
So it's a great place to spendan afternoon.
SPEAKER_00 (27:29):
I would say our another favorite hike of ours is
called Huckleberry Point.
It's it's just a short 20-minuteor so drive from here, and um
it's not one of the big peaks,it's not over 3,500 feet, but
it's you just get a great umview of the Hudson Valley when
you make it to the top on thisbeautiful uh ledge that pokes
(27:50):
out over the over the trees.
And we've we've been dog peoplesince we moved up here and and
we've we've um taken all threeof our pups up there and gotten
some great photos.
SPEAKER_01 (28:01):
Are you still able to spend time in the mountains
and go hiking?
SPEAKER_00 (28:04):
We aim to get away um at least part of the day on
Sundays and Mondays, if we'relucky, and everything's going
well and nothing's breaking, andnobody needs us to sub in for
them.
Um and we can we can see themountains basically from our
from our front porch, um, which,like you said, is a great is a
great thing.
It calms you as soon as you seethem in the morning.
Um, so sun, yeah, Sundays andMondays we'll we try to get out.
(28:28):
Um, if not for a you know a bigmountain hike.
Um, we have some great lakes andtrails nearby, and we'll just
get out just for a 30, 45-minutewalk with our dog.
SPEAKER_01 (28:37):
Do you have big dogs or little dogs?
SPEAKER_00 (28:39):
Well, we have a 50-pound pit bull mix right now.
His name is Brutus.
So I'd say he's medium-sized,but he has the heart and muscles
of a much bigger dog.
Um, but he loves he loveshiking.
SPEAKER_01 (28:51):
I bet he does.
It's it just always warms myheart when I see a family out
with their dog walking.
I just I I just love it.
Let's talk about books.
What's a book you've readrecently that made you see
something differently in life orin how you run rough draft
barren books?
SPEAKER_00 (29:08):
Well, I I have been recommending this book um to
everyone.
Um it's called You Dreamed ofEmpires.
And I'm gonna make sure I getall the details right here.
Um it's it's a it's an accountof the meeting um between the
(29:29):
Spanish and the Aztecs.
But it's written much more fromthe Aztec point of view.
Um, the author is AlvaroEnrique, and the translator is
Natasha Wimmer.
And to read, to go back andexplore something that we
learned about in history, youknow, in fifth grade, um, to
(29:49):
read it all over again from acompletely different point of
view, where the indigenouspeople have a say-so, where they
have dignity, where they're realpeople, where the women who are
involved are actually actuallyrecognized as human beings.
Um, it's something that I thinkabout all the time now in the
way that we run our business andthe way that we interact with
our team.
Um, it's it speaks to empathy,it speaks to listening, it
(30:13):
speaks to considering otherpoints of view.
Um, it's really, reallyfantastic, fun historical
fiction, but it also sends youaway with a message.
And I I just I love that book.
SPEAKER_01 (30:25):
I need to look up that book.
It sounds fantastic.
And what about you, Amanda?
SPEAKER_02 (30:29):
So I have been recommending this book that came
out.
It's a nonfiction book, it's amemoir, and it's a it's a very
funny book.
It's called It's Only Drowningby David Litt.
And um, David Litt is a formerum, he's a he's a writer, he's a
comedy writer, he's a politicalwriter.
He was a speechwriter for BarackObama, actually, I think is what
(30:52):
he's best known for.
And um he wrote this book abouthow he lived in DC and then the
pandemic hit, and he and hiswife moved to this beach house
that they had bought in NewJersey to be near her family.
So they they move, you know,they left the city like everyone
else did during COVID and theywent to live in New Jersey, and
(31:15):
he kind of fell into adepression because of everything
that was going on, and he umdecided to take up surfing.
And he's not an athletic person,he is not a water person in
general.
So he's doing something totallyout of his comfort zone,
something that he's really badat because you can't be good at
surfing when you first start,and it's scary, and it's you
(31:37):
know, it's there's there's justum uh this insurmountable thing
that you know, you just feellike you're you're getting tiny,
tiny, tiny little bit betterevery day, but it's just this
really difficult thing.
And a lot of the book is aboutthat.
It's about learning how to dosomething as an adult that um
seems hard, seems like past whatyou can do, and just trying over
(32:02):
and over again, and learnlearning to look at your
failures as learning experiencesand as successes and how you can
get better from them.
It was a it's kind of a goodreminder to just think about,
you know, doing hard things anddoing things that we're not
going to be at, and and whythat's good for us physically
and emotionally and mentally.
SPEAKER_01 (32:23):
Sounds like another good recommendation.
Uh, Amanda and Anthony, it hasbeen wonderful chatting with
you.
And it's great learning allabout rough draft bar and books.
Uh, it seems like you're reallybuilding what you set out to do,
and that it's building acommunity around books, food,
drinking, and conversation.
It just sounds fabulous.
(32:44):
And I wish you continued successand thank you for being on the
show.
SPEAKER_00 (32:48):
Thank you so much.
SPEAKER_01 (32:49):
You've been listening to my conversation
with Amanda and AnthonyStromowski from Rough Draft Bar
and Books.
To help the show reach morepeople, please share episodes
with friends and family and onsocial media.
And remember to subscribe andleave a review wherever you
listen to this podcast.
To find out more about theBookshop Podcast, go to
(33:10):
thebookshoppodcast.com and makesure to subscribe and leave a
review wherever you listen tothe show.
You can also follow me at MandyJackson Beverly, on Instagram
and Facebook, and on YouTube atThe Bookshop Podcast.
If you have a favorite indiebookshop that you'd like to
suggest we have on the podcast,I'd love to hear from you via
(33:32):
the contact form atthebookshoppodcast.com.
The Bookshop Podcast is writtenand produced by me, Mandy
Jackson Beverly.
Theme music provided by BrianBeverly and my personal
assistant is Kayleigh Dechinger.
Thanks for listening, and I'llsee you next time.
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