Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Yo, what's up? This is Doc Winter from iHeartMedia. Check
me out on the Bootleg keV Show.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
That's not the plan, all right man, Bootleg keV Podcast
special guest in here. Mister doc Winner is here.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
So Doc.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
For people who don't know what's your title.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
I'm the president of Hip Hop and R and B
Programming Strategy for iHeart and program director of Real.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Ninety two three is ninety two three Click up on
the mic, A little bit, A little bit on the mic.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
We gotta start over.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
No, you're good. You're good. So uh big title. You've
made plenty of of like the source Power thirty list,
and you've I mean, you're here a very very important
guy in the music industry. I gotta thank you because
you've given me opportunity after opportunity.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
When we launched Real, I got a bunch of audition tapes. Yeah,
to this day, yours was still the best.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Yeah. That was like late twenty fourteen. I might have
sent that. I was in Tampa, yeah, and Whack one
hundred called me out of dinner with you and was like,
I'm with Doc Winner right now, I'm telling them about you.
I was like, would you say yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
and so at that point in time, I called a
bunch of rappers and I was like, I need you
(01:20):
guys all to do a drop that says bring boulet
head to La.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
That was good man, and it worked. But I was
under contract. But it ended up working out anyway.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
So that's some real ship though, when you think your
man's gonna let you out your contract.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
I know when I asked, I tried to do it
the right way. I was like, guys, my dream job, please,
And I think it all worked out, you know, for
the best time, for sure. For like you would originally
went to school for computers.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Right, computer programming?
Speaker 2 (01:49):
What city are you originally from? Doc from Brooklyn, so
you're a New York guy.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
And then you know, Queen's playball went to college in Connecticut.
It was a computer programmer home. He worked at the
college radio station. I sit in with him sometimes and
then one one spring break he asked me to fill
in for him. And you know, the assumption was always
from New York, so you can mix. You know, I
was a Catholic school basketball player, but I always fuck
(02:17):
with the radio. Loved radio, loved Frankie Crocker, bls all
that New York. Shit. Yeah. And so when I sat
in for that day I prepped my show, I cracked
the mic. And I don't know if you had that experience,
but when I cracked that mic the first time, I
was like, wow, yeah, this is crazy. And it was
a college radio station that it was one of those
(02:38):
towns where the where the commercial station was on during
the daytime, but the college station was on at night.
So some people did both. And this this chick named
Jackie Allen, never forget her her brother worked actually at
Kiss FM in New York at the time, and she's like, yo, like,
I don't know who you are, but you should do this.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
So so you went from the college that you did
you finish your degree?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Yeah, I was a computer I started working as a
computer programmer and worked at the college station at the
same time. And then I got a job at a
commercial station.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
What was your first commercial gig?
Speaker 1 (03:10):
It was a new ninety eight FM in will Amantic, Connecticut. Wow,
yeah it was. It was what market number is that? Dude?
I have no idea. All I know is I would.
I was a computer programmer, so I was I was
making a little money and so yeah, I think I
started a part time. Then I went to full time,
and like it was tight then. Man. So I remember
(03:33):
one day going in with my my dinner before I
was about to go on air, put my big Mac down,
went to the bathroom and washed my hands. Came back.
Somebody had taken a bite out of my ship. Yeah,
because Jesus, it was tight like that. It was tight.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
What were you do you remember when you were making
an hour?
Speaker 1 (03:51):
I was it was making twenty something as a computer programmer,
so I made I'm making more than the programs director
at the radio station, which was which was an issue
of course. It's actually an interesting story, like he basically
hired me to fill in overnights a weekend that he
was going to be gone. Back then, it was no
(04:14):
you know, you had to have somebody in a building
right at all times. And I'm thinking, I'm auditioning. He's
in another part of the country. But his wife was
listening and she was like, yo, like you need to
hire this dude. She ended up telling me the story
like a couple of years later, Craze, he wasn't even
listening to you, and I told him, like, yo, you
need to hire that dude. So but it might have been.
(04:36):
It might have been five bucks an hour at the time.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
So you go from doing that, what would you say
was your first like significant break that made you kind
of be like, I can leave the programming job aside
and really pursue the radio thing.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
So from New ninety eight and Willamantic, I went to
w NHC in New Haven, which was like a AM
twenty four our radio station, and I was doing overnight stair.
I was working for Jazzy Jordan and I was doing
part time and my boy Bobby was doing mornings. He
was going on vacation and she asked me to fill in.
(05:13):
I was actually getting ready to go on vacation, one
of those things that radio people do, and she you know,
sometimes it takes a minute for the things to kick in,
and I was like, I need to cancel this vacation
and do mornings.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
So I've done that before.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
I canceled my vacation. I did mornings for a week,
and then at the end of the week Friday, she
called me to the office and she was like, yo,
how would you like to do it full time? And
I was like, yo, Bobby's my guy, and that's my homie.
He's like, yeah, that's business she wanted or not. And
I was like wow, wow seriously, And I was able
(05:47):
to I was able to talk to him before things
went down, let him know like no malice. And later on,
once I got this position, I was able to give
him an opportunity. But so I ended up started doing
mornings there. Worked there for a while that I wanted
to see what it was going to be like to
work at Top forty radio, because you know, it was
a different thing. Yeah, black radio locally versus Top forty radio.
(06:12):
So I went. I did Top forty for about a year.
That's how I got into the company. I was the
black guy in the Top forty station. What shift was
I doing overnights on overnights and having the white girls
roll up on you at the promotions like mad when
they find out to g black. It was. It was
actually pretty hilarious. So that's when I ended up making
(06:35):
the trend, you know, like I got to let go.
You know, my parents are Jamaican.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
That was for clear Water or clear Clear Channel Jesus.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
At the time. At the time it was it was
shake cor. It was actually Noble Broadcast Group and then
ja Core brought us. Then we later on became Clear Channel.
But you know, my parents were lit man, They're like, yo,
we went to school to be a computer programmer, Like
what are you doing.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
They weren't too happy.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Oh not at all. Like you know, Jamaican's like, we
don't do like we're like everybody in my family. I
got doctors, lawyers, judges like you know, our family. Like
they had a plan. We came over here, you get educated,
you get a job, and so that was contrary to
the plan. But like I told my pops, like your dad,
I think I can be really good at this. Yeah,
and so once I got to this job ten years later,
(07:19):
he was good. Yeah, he was good. He was good
with it after that, but initially he was a little
tight about it.
Speaker 2 (07:25):
Yeah, you've been a part of, like obviously some pretty
historical stuff in radio. You pretty much you did. I mean,
you signed on Real ninety two three in LA which
was a very crazy thing to do at the time
because there was a heritage station here that nobody would
ever really think to fuck with.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Also, you were very instrumental in the Breakfast Club.
Speaker 1 (07:49):
Right I launched I launched Power, so you.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
Launched Power one O five one. At the time when
you launched it, it was ed Lover in the morning
yep ed and doctor dre the other doctor dreep the
other one.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
And then we went through a couple of iterations of
morning shows. I think we Ticker was doing mornings at
one time. Then we had I think before that it
might have been starring buck while. Yeah, how was that?
What were those calls? You know? I tell everybody all
the time, man like, like he and I had a
great relationship, man like, there was never any malice between us.
(08:26):
He gave people a hard time, but like me and
him were good manyeah Like. I remember he and I
having a conversation one time about how many times he
was used the N word on his show, because at
this time he was doing it like every two.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Seconds, you say, like, hey, you got five now.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
I vaguely remember the conversation, but I remember him negotiating
it down to twenty five twenty five times a show,
twenty five times an hour an hour show. It was.
It was, it was, which is kind.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
Of crazy because technically you can't say it on the radio.
Speaker 1 (08:55):
Technically you can, but it wasn't an advertiser friendly term.
For sure. You might have man and so I remember business.
I remember he and I settled on that and then
you know it progressively got went back up to forty
and then you know, then those things ended crazy. I
don't ever want to take credit for the Breakfast Club
(09:16):
high because it was actually Cadillac Jack. I remember him
calling me and telling me, I knew who Charlemagne was,
I knew who Envy was because of what happened with Starr,
and I was aware who Angela was. And at the
time the show started, it was the very beginning of
PPM measurement. Early early PPM measurement. There were a lot
of misconceptions about PPM measurement, and the biggest bum was
(09:40):
that you should know if the show is a hit
within weeks.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
Also for people who don't know what PPM is, it's
the it's a meter that tells radio stations their ratings exactly.
It's a it's an imperfect system.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
And before that, it used to be a diary. So
you would get a diary and you would you would
write down what you thought you listened to versus.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
What you actually listen. Too much easier way to program.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
It, absolutely much easier way. So so the show started,
you know, I remember Cadillac and I talking about it.
I thought it was a great idea, but it didn't
hit as quickly as people thought. And we had done
something similar in Chicago with the Morning Show, and I
remember that Morning Show took a minute. So after a
(10:25):
few months when it didn't hit, I was called in
for me in New York and there was actually a
thought of maybe doing something different. And I remember after
a few months, after a few months, because that was
the misconception of the time, but I but there was
a chemistry between the three that was like nothing I'd
ever seen. And I remember being in a room with
(10:47):
them just kind of like, you know, just we're just
talking and just like man like if we could have
a this gets on the radio and we give it
time and we promoted it's gonna be crazy. I had
no idea would be what it became.
Speaker 2 (10:59):
But yeah, I know you fielded calls for stuff I've
said before, at least I know aos about artists. Have
you ever had to deal with blowback for like early
Charlemagne stuff where they're like yo, and I know what
you know before real you were you're obviously based in Jacksonville,
but like you're at the I feel like you're kind
of the face of like, yeah, who the industry talks
(11:22):
to when it comes to iheartshit on the hip hop side.
You are that literally, So was there ever any like.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Always, always, always, especially at the very early different iterations
of Charlemagne. I think early on he was he was
raw raw, and so I get those complaints. Obviously back
in the day before Charlemagne's star was it was routine.
Man like NAACP would want me to come. I'm like,
I'm not coming in to me like nah, man, Like
(11:50):
if you took the show locally, I would always tell him, like,
you took the show, you know what you got, like
you got to handle it, like I'm not flying across
the country and meeting with the you know, you know
I did Nego College run INAACP every city.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
Because of every city that that that was affiliate with.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
The show because they were hot, you know. So, But
but yeah, I mean there were there were, there were complaints.
It's part of the culture.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
I just I'm just wondering if like, you know, you
look at your phone and like it says Ditty's calling, right,
and then Diddy's like yo yo, doc was this is
fucking co by the way, that's just the name.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Yeah, yeah, I mean it still happens to this thing. Yeah,
I mean I think some people think that that's what
we do. We set them up for the you know,
to get the clip on on social media, which I
don't think you guys intentionally do. I think it just
happens sometimes. But yeah, but yeah, get them a lot.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
Do you feel like because I do, I don't think artists,
at least even five ten years back, appreciate the radio
promo run like they used to, you know what I mean, Like,
I feel like a lot of these younger guys didn't
necessarily break on radio and or understanding importance of radio
or do you notice that in terms of like certain
(13:07):
artists maybe not wanting to do you know, come to
the station or do a radio run or do like
a promo show or ship like that.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Not a lot but some yeah, again just not well educated.
I think they've fallen into the fantasy of streaming, which
you know, I don't necessarily buy it, buy it all
that it's legitimate. I think if you want to be
a household name though, you want to be on a radio.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah, that's away everybody. I say, look, you have a career.
You could be big, you get, but if you want
a number one record, if you want to be a superstar,
radio it's it has.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
To be especially markets like LA where people are always
in the car, like you know, and you know, people
always talk about, you know, radio's ability to survive. Man,
Like the best talent in the world is on a radio.
Like you know, you could, you could, you could put
on a playlist, but I'd rather hear you and James
talk about something and then play my favorite record or
(14:04):
you in Big or Breakfast Club or we just have
a lot of great talent on our stable and you know,
I think they're gonna take us into the next that's.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Gonna say in terms of like obviously radio as an
industry is like shrinking in terms of like the amount
of bodies that are around, like like even like on
the record side, do you know people are getting let go?
It's it just it feels like more and more. The
if you think of like the UK and they have BBC,
do you feel like eventually they'll be like some I
(14:33):
don't think they'll ever be like a BBC type situation
in the US. I just think there's too many companies involved. Yeah,
but do you feel like eventually they'll they'll be something
similar where it's like, this is the morning show for
the US, this is the you know what I mean? Like,
do you feel like it's gonna get there or no?
Speaker 1 (14:49):
I don't think so, because I think I think Big
makes sense for LA.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Right, I think did make sense for New York. He
was on ninety seven for a little bit.
Speaker 1 (14:58):
No. Yeah, I probably never told them this story, but
I remember my boss calling me and saying, Hey, should
should we do this? And I met Big, loved him,
and I think, you know, growing up in New York City.
I was like, No, it's a different vibe.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
It's cities that are.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Like that, Like he's one of the funniest, most talented
people I've ever met. Sure, and I mean that sincerely.
But New York is just a different animal.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
And New Yorkers are. They want to hear New Yorkers
on the radio. They want to know you're there.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
They want to know, yeah, and you got to have
you know, it could be a little nasty at times,
you know, and that's their expectation, and they deserve to
get what it is that they want, you know, just
like you should in Atlanta. You should in d C.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Say, what are some of those other cities that you're
like this this, you know this kind of needs.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Yeah, Memphis is different, Memphis is Orleans is different, Jacksonville,
Douvall is different.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Tampa was like was like that. I remember being in
Tampa and being like, I can't imagine, Like even the
morning show, who was on the top fortyes station was
iHeart station? What's the top forty?
Speaker 1 (15:57):
Guy?
Speaker 2 (15:57):
Who was over there forever?
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Bubba?
Speaker 2 (16:00):
No, no, no, no, the top four the iHeart Top
forty guys based in DC, but he streamed in Tampa.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Caine, Oh, Caine, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can talk about
how can you talk about Tampa radio and not talk
about Bubba Sponge Yo shout shout out to him. He
actually worked for me for about about a month. What
station was it when I got to Jacksonville? He was
on Sunday nights.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Oh wild guy, Wild show dude.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Like one of my favorite stories to tell about radio
involved him. So he was on when I got to Jacksonville.
Only I was only programming w S O L initially
that's the Urban AC and my boy PoCA Lopez was
programming the beat. I remember one of our first meetings with.
Our boss at the time was Kevin Matheni. Kevin was
the power, not the power per Kevin was Howard Stearn's boss.
(16:54):
If you ever saw the movie w NBC teaching them
how yeah, Pig Pig Vomiti was right. So Kevin was
my first boss when I got to Jacksonville. And so
Paco and Kevin and I are having our first staff
meeting when I get to Jacksonville. And so Paco is
(17:15):
complaining about Bubba, you know, following directions doing whatever, and
you know, I mean I was Bubba. And so I
remember we're in the room and Kevin God rest his soul,
like you know. I remember telling to telling Paco to
go get Bubba's phone number, and he threw something. He
do something at him, told him, you know, get out
(17:36):
and go get us something. And I was like, oh ship.
So I remember while we're waiting for Paco to come,
I was like, man, keV, like, dude, did I ever
tell you I'm from Brooklyn? And He's like yeah. I
was like yeah, man, because honestly, like that pen, it's
coming right back at you, right, And I remember he
just turned right right. I said, Now I'm not trying
to be disrespectful. I'm just wired differently, like like that's
(18:00):
not gonna work for me. I remember him looking at
me turning bright red and we were good after that.
Never ever ever, but you know, it was like that
was my first time really like seeing that kind of
management style and.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
Like old school radio shit.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
Yeah, I was like, okay, yeah that does That's gonna
work for me. Though.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
I just heard like back in the day, man, like
I would always like guys like I won't even say
their names, but just I heard like way way back
probably even rock radio days, like used to be able
to like get your record on if you dropped off
like an eight ball of cocaine, like some of these
like rock pds in the seventies.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
You know, yo, man, it was it was a different
It was a different environment because when I got to
when I later became the PD of JBTNS well got
to remember Sol's on the urban adult panel and JBT
at the time was on the rhythmic panel, not the
urban panel.
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Let's get back to the interview.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
It's on the urban panel, of course, and JBT is
on the rhythmic panel. So I'd come from Saint Louis
at cam Jams, so I knew every you know, all
the urban people. So now I have this whole slew
of people that I don't know, most of whom are white.
And you're talking about the record second. Yeah, yeah, and
it's a totally different vibe. I was. I remember Hitman Hayes,
(21:48):
who's in he's in San Diego, San Diego now, was
my music director at the time. I remember walking to
his office one time to ask him and he's on
speaker and some dude is just like yelling at him,
like you bet.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
You a record rep.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, And I was like, so, I was like, ud, dude.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I was like, you know who is that?
Speaker 1 (22:05):
It was? It was a record guy, I said, And
he's talking to you like that? He said yeah. I
was like, hang up on him. He said, what you mean,
I said, hang up on it? You got it? Yes,
I just hung up on him. I was like, man,
I don't ever want to hear you letting somebody talk
to you like that again. I'll fire you. You know
what I'm saying. And uh, you know, our relationship was
great after that. He still works in the company. He
(22:27):
was great, But it was just so different to see
how you know, the reps were different, and you know,
it was great for me because I had an opportunity
to meet all of those people. And I've had relations
longstanding relationships with people on both sides of the equation.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
But yeah, even me, like when I got hired at Real,
technically it was the first urban I ever worked at.
You so obviously worked a tons of hip hop stations,
but there's hip hop stations on the rhythm pattern, So
coming to Real, I'm beating all these record repst you
know I had before I never had relationship with a
guy like d I or you know guys exactly, and
it's like there's like a whole new group of.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Guys, and we should probably explain the whole idea between
rhythmic and urban correct.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
So for people who don't know, Hot ninety seven is
a hip hop station, but it's on the rhythm panel.
So there's a rhythmic chart, yep, and there's I believe
around sixty stations that report to it, probably give or
take right. So Power one oh six in l A
that we're smoking in the ratings, Hot ninety seven in
New York. Those are hip hop stations that are on
(23:29):
the rhythmic panel. Got it on the urban panel. There's
a ton of stations on the urban panel, a lot
more stations right.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Typically, But there's a story behind that too.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
Yeah, what is that story?
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Story behind that is, let's just keep it real. Rhythmic
stations play predominantly black artist. Most of the jocks are white,
Most of the program directors are white.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
And out of touch and weird and cringey.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I'm not trying it. I'm just I'm trying to just
know you're just the facts, listen. And so then on
the urban panel, most majority people are most of the
talents director directors are black, and on the record side,
most of those people are people of color. So here
I am. I started overseeing the Urbans for the company
in two thousand and Around two thousand and three was
(24:17):
the first time we decided to launch Power in New
York and working with Steve Smith. Tom Polman was still
on Boss.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
That's crazy. Steve Smith helped launch that station. Yeah, and
he launched Hot ninety seven. That's my guy, all right,
pe god rest of Soul.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, And so then the conversation comes up and they're like, okay,
so yeah, we're gonna put it on the rhythmic panel. Like,
oh no, no, no, no, no, not me. Yeah, I'm
the head of Urbans. Yeah, black dude, New York City
is my city. I'm not putting a hip hop station
and putting it on the rhythmic panel. And they just
the conversation was literally about two seconds. And that's one
(24:50):
of the things about I loved about Tom to this day.
See at the time, they're like, you're right, it should be.
And so then fast forward fifteen years later, we get
ready to launch rear same thing to second conversation. Nope,
I don't do that.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Like, so what they wanted you to run it at
on the rhythm panel? Yeah, oh wow, But that's jobs, man.
You know, we create jobs when we put an urban
on it. For sure, Power is still an urban. We
created jobs when we put reel on in La same
thing in Houston with the beat, same thing in Miami
with the beat.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Same thing. But one of those things I know, for
me personally, was important for me to do, and it
was important that our company supported us because I was like, like,
that's crazy, Like why would we do that?
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Yeah, it doesn't make any sense. And I always didn't
understand the This is like kind of getting into some
inside baseball, but I never really understood the lack of
urbans on the West Coast in general. Like I think
of a station like KMEL, right, KAMIL is an urban station,
but it's not. It's on the rhythm panel, you know,
(25:54):
but it's like that's a It's like, is that the
I think that might be the first hip hop.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Station came out on the West Coast.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
I think it was the first.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
It might have been. I think I'd have to do.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
But it's just but yeah, it's some real radio nerd shit,
but it's definitely like if you're an artist, right, and
like maybe you are because a lot of up and
cooming artists watched the podcast, Like you you've got to
kind of make a decision if you have a record
and you have a budget, which chart you're going to chase, right,
So it's like I want to go to the rhythmic side,
I want to go on the urban side. I'm gonna
go on the top forty side, and then you make
(26:27):
a decision from there.
Speaker 1 (26:28):
Yeah, it's it's actually crazy because if you looked at
our playlist for real, in LA, we have rhythmic sensibilities.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
For sure, there's bad Bunny getting played, Steve Lacy got
you know.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
For sure. And it's a function of our audience. You know,
our audience here is predominantly Latino with some African Americans.
Then you know, you go to Atlanta, it's totally different.
You go to LA, I mean, go to New York,
it's totally different, different. And you know, usually the playlist
is a function of the diet that that audience was
fed upon. We're here and here in La, the diet
(27:00):
it was more rhythmic, right, and so as you put
a station on here in LA, gradually like when I
launched it, we launched it like it was an urban station,
but gradually it's begun to take on. It's like its
own thing. Yeah, its own thing. Because of the feedback
from the audience.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I was gonna say, like, obviously you've been a part
of launching two the I mean Market one and two
talking about Power one oh five to one, Real ninety
two to three each against the biggest heritage hip hop
stations in the country. I mean, what were some of
the bumps and bruises for each city, because obviously it
(27:40):
took you a few morning shows to land on the
Breakfast Club. It helps if you're in LA and you
launch with Big Boy. Absolutely, what were some of the
bumps and bruises where you kind of had to like
cause again, like there's no rules for each city. You
got to kind of like learn on the fly. I'm
sure for each station that you launched, because you've launched so.
Speaker 1 (27:59):
Many power Power was different in that, you know, I
was again, I was like two three years into the job.
But I mean my team respected me. But I also
was the only black person and the only New Yorker
that was involved in the equation. So sometimes you just
gotta you gotta muscle your way in and like not,
(28:20):
we're going to do it this way, right that way,
because we're all type A personalities. And then once we launched,
my mindset was I was going to bring different people
in from different radio stations that I oversaw to put
them on the air. Hindsight, that was a mistake. I
(28:40):
think it's got to be people from that city to
make it work because it's it's a local at least
predominantly predominantly Absolutely it's a local radio station, so it
should be people who live and breathe and eat and
sound like that city. And I think I made a
mistake then and not casting shit on anybody there, but
(29:02):
I think in the best interest to the radio station.
And I think I learned that here in La like
you know, people got to be from here. They got
to be able to talk and sound and you know,
and speak the language of the city. Launching with Big
was obviously a second cheat code, huge advantage for us.
Wouldn't have done it if we didn't.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
So yeah, I think that people don't understand there would
not be a real ninety two three if iHeart hadn't
have now the Big Boy, it wouldn't have been worth
going against him.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
No, I didn't think we were going to do it. Honestly.
I remember when we first when Tom first reached out
and said, hey, you know, I think this could be
the play. And this was like in twenty fourteen. I
think I had met Big in maybe two thousand and eight,
when we were considering syndication with him and I'd come
out to LA and one of the things I knew
about him is he was incredibly loyal, super loyal, great,
(29:50):
incredibly loyal. I'm like, unless they really really messed up,
he's not leaving. And I never forget I was in.
It was late December, might have been the first week
or two in January twenty fifteen. I'm in New York
in a meeting with fifty cent. Get a text on
my phone like, YO, we're ready to go.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Got it done.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
I gotta get on the phone. I got to negotiate
my new contract with my boss. Did that in like
five minutes.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
And because at that point in time, you're realizing you're
moving to LA.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Yeah, I have to let my lady know by the
way I think we're going to be moving to LA.
She's like, let's go, you know, And I had to
excuse myself from that meeting with fifty. I'm like, yeah,
I got to get on the plane and go to
La tomorrow, go find a place to live and get
ready to launch a radio station. Then my next call
was the AO, who I had just made the PD
(30:41):
in Miami. Hey, I know you really really like Miami.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Oh he really likes Yeah, it's legendary.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
He had an all night away.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Don't ever hang out with AO, He'll kill you. I
was like, hey, man't, why don't you come with me
to La. Let's do this, And he was like, oh,
let's go. Yeah, yeah, that's my god.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
No, it's crazy because, like you said, like it was
like a very last from what I understand the whole. Well,
first of all, there was like a lawsuit right with
with involving Big leaving, right, So I remember you telling
me like, hey man, we're in the middle of this
legal ship with Big Boy. So if you're if you
(31:22):
got to you got to get out of your deal.
They have to let you out. We can't Like, yeah,
I wasn't. I wasn't because I was like, dude, I
could just quit and then pop up in La. You're like, no,
not that He's like, this big ship wasn't happening maybe.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
But and big wasn't. Big wasn't the only one there were.
There were a couple of people that I had I
had interviewed who I wanted to bring on a team,
who were working in television, right, and they were of
the mindset, oh yeah, it can do a different medium.
I could do both. I'd be like, no, you got
to get approval, Like, no, no, they're good. I already
spoke to him about it, and just like you when
(31:55):
they went hell, no, nah, not doing it, and they were,
they were away, and I'm like, there's nothing we can
do about it. But I know for me moving forward,
it was never again because in some instances, I know,
in one deal in particular, I actually said, Okay, let's
put the deal in front of you and then you
can take it to your boss, as opposed to you
(32:16):
getting permission fir us, and the boss said no, yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
I had a meeting with some redneck guy from Beasley
and Orlando Love Orlando because he was like I told him, yes, yeah,
it's like but we got to go sit with I
think I forget that. You know, those Beasleys are from
like a gust of Georgia or some shit, and the
guy was like, you know you're going to regret this.
I gotta say you're number one right now. Can't just
(32:42):
let you go tie to iHeart poaching our talent. Yeah,
so it didn't work out. But it's crazy, Doc, because
you're in a position where you can really press the
button on changing someone's trajectory of their career, and I
know you don't take that lightly. I also know that
artists are very emotional. They're very emotional when it comes
(33:05):
to their art, and I've heard you just tell people
this ain't it, this is not I remember we had
a random I don't know if fetti Wap was there.
Somebody from three hundred was there when Fettiwap kept just
putting up duds, and I remember shot to fetti Wap.
He just got sent to six years in prison. Free Fettiwap.
(33:26):
But I've seen you like just you're a very blunt
guy when it comes to telling people about their records,
Like how hard is it to be? Like, I know,
I don't want to spell any names or anything, but
you had situations where artists have gotten really emotional with you.
Top tier, biggest artists in the world pulled out a
certain situations for iHeart over just dumb shit. But like,
(33:49):
for you, how do you like? I guess tiptoe that
line where you're you're you know, you're you could be
friendly with somebody, you could look out for somebody, but
you know you're not gonna just yo, your record's getting
added on all these iHeart stations just because you're so.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
And so it's honestly sad in some respects because it
is the nature of our format. There are formats like country,
where like they love their people from eighteen to seventy
five and they're going to play the record and country
artists and country are world absolutely, but it's a function
of that. It just happens not to be true about
(34:25):
our format. Our format is eighteen to thirty four targeted,
and when you turn thirty five, you go someplace you know,
you leave, and then that seventeen year old turns eighteen
and they come in and they have specific taste interest
and sometime you'll get it. You know, you'll get a
legacy artist who's done the damn thing for twenty five
(34:49):
years and one day it's over and you have to
tell them, and they don't appreciate it because they feel
like yo like and I get it. I totally get it.
It's just it's just a name and every once in
a while they'll they'll they'll put one in that will work,
but it's it's not it's the exception, not the exception.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
Everyone's always one hit away.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
Yep, especially with TikTok.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Do you have like a blacklist of artists who just
it's like a fuck you, like, like you've.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Done a B and C.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
To me, the bridge is burnt. First of all, I'm
not saying you're gonna tell me who's on the list,
but is there a list?
Speaker 1 (35:30):
First of all, I don't really have that because I
don't put that out. I have really good relationships. I've
had three really bad experiences. Three that's been bad. In
thirty five years, I've had three.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
One is an artist who will remain nameless, but he
was at that particular part of his career. I was
in New York at a party, having a conversation and
a drink with a very young lady, and Label came
over and said, Hey, so and so wants to say,
what's up to you? So I get up, I walk
(36:10):
over to where they're standing and I'm immediately taken back
because of the stature of the individual. It was really
really really really really short, and I didn't expect. I knew,
but I didn't know, you know, and you know, there
were some heels that were really and I was like wow,
and then he just started going in. There was another
(36:34):
misconception that there was some national playlist that I presided
over it and that his music wasn't on it, and
he felt like I was the one, and I'm like, dude,
like you're wrong. There there's no such list. It's just
your time is coming gone.
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Like you if it's not a hit, it's not a hit,
and marketplace will tell me if I need to play
a ship.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Yeah exactly. But he was I mean, he was living
and you know, I was looking down and like still
like like little dude, and his bodyguard was standing to
his right, and his bodyguard was like looking like he
just I'm waiting for you to say something wrong. Yeah,
and if you know me, I just kind of like,
all right, man, have a good night, just tur around,
(37:16):
walked away, and he used to do like like I'm
not gonna sit here and have this conversation with you
because you don't want to have a conversation like you want.
Speaker 2 (37:23):
To write you have a you have an interesting relationship
with Kanye because I remember listen, I remember, well, no, no, no,
I remember because I wanted to ask you about this.
There was one of those rants on the Life of
Pablo Tour when Ye was like floating above the crowd,
and in one of the rants I believe he was
(37:44):
in Sacramento or San Francisco, he mentioned your name specifically
in one of these like thirty minute Kanye rants in
the middle of his performance. Like, obviously, since then, you've
you know, you've seen Kanye. You know he's obviously I'm
not talking about since the you know, the current situation
he's in, but since that specific instance, like what do
(38:05):
you when you wake up in the morning, again, you're
the most mild mannered, cool dude, and you see Kanye
just went on a rant mentions my name, what do
you like, do you give a fuck?
Speaker 1 (38:15):
Or no? It doesn't pay my rent? I really didn't
give a ship. My mom was excited, my family was excited.
You know, I got hit up around the country about it.
But I mean not I don't even know what led
to that, because at that time. We actually had a
really good relationship and I would go and listen to
his album. Usually would grab big and go with him
(38:35):
listen to Big Boy and go listen to his album
and so. But but maybe he wasn't getting the feedback
from me at the time because it things that started
to change from him in the marketplace. But I don't
I didn't even know what caused the rant. But but yeah,
I thought I thought it was funny.
Speaker 2 (38:56):
You know, so, how long has DJ Khaled called you Doc,
Doc Winter, Doc Winters.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
To the point where I actually thought about changing my
name to Doc Winters since everybody calls.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Me it's always like everyone used to call Joe Budden,
Joe Budens. It's like it's Winters.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
I think it's funny. Actually calls my god man, great
Guye's hilarious.
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Let's get back to the interview. So another thing I
wanted to talk about, doc, because I do feel like
we are in like a new era of just the
music industry. We talked about extremely, We talked about TikTok,
Like what would be your advice? I always tell artists
when they ask me, and you can tell me if
I'm wrong or not, but I always tell them to
(41:57):
worry about radio.
Speaker 1 (41:58):
Last.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
To me, it's like the last peg of like, you know,
like if you're an up and I get hit up
by guys with ten thousand followers and they're like, yo, man,
I'm from fucking I'm from the city. Put me on
a real you know what. I like, don't worry about
me yet? Like, no, I think that's good advice. Yeah,
I always say, worry the radio is the last thing
to come worry about, you know, developing a following, your fans,
(42:21):
you know, getting your shit off the ground, put an
album out something like, But what would be advice you
would give in terms of like just an up and
coming artist and how they should maneuver around getting on
the radio.
Speaker 1 (42:32):
Yeah, I think it's no different from back in the day,
where I think you have to create a story for yourself.
Like back in the day, we would say create something
locally that I would probably say create something socially, you know,
get yourself a buzz. I think you got to work
on your art. I think because you never know when
it's time to press play, and you got to be
ready to do business. And I always ask people like
(42:53):
especially after like you know, the first year, So so
how was it, Like, y'all, shit's a grind, Like, yeah,
it's not fun, it's work. It's work. It's work. You're
getting up doing these morning shows, doing these shows, and
you're trying to party and then you got to get
up and do shows like it's like not everybody's built
for it, you know. So that's my advice. And then
also handle your business because you may you may get
(43:16):
two albums, you may you may not. You should have
some licensing, some publishing to continue to take care of
your family. You may move into a different aspect of
the business. But I think you got to start looking
at it from that perspective because things can change.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
What about your advice for Listen, and I tell anybody
who asked me that they want to get into the
radio industry. For the most part, I say, I don't know, man,
time might have passed. Like, so, what if somebody's watching
this and their aspirations are to do radio. It's obviously
(43:52):
by the day getting tougher and tougher to crack because
of just the nature of our business, the economics of
our business. What would be your advice to somebody who
wants to get into radio.
Speaker 1 (44:02):
Man, get yourself a podcast. Man, get yourself a podcast,
work on your craft if an opportunity to presents itself.
But but honestly, man, like, there's so few opportunities for
really to hone your craft. I think you've got to
be on the air frequently to do that. Podcast gives
(44:23):
you an opportunity to do that. But I mean, only
the stronger surviving right now. There's some incredibly talented people
like yourself who who are out of work. Then there's
some incredibly talented people like yourself who who have carved
a niche for themselves and now now they're on more
than one radio station. There's a lot of people outside
(44:46):
of radio trying to take multiple jobs. And I get
a lot of those meetings, and you know, sometimes like
sometimes I can kind of like throw it back at them,
like you do realize what you're asking me to do
is take twenty five thirty people's jobs and give it
to you, right, And they've never ever thought about it
that way.
Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yeah, like you're expecting yeah, like real people's lives.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Like honestly, because we really don't have to unless you know,
we needed to. But you're asking me basically to take
thirty jobs from people and just give it to you
because you know, you may or may not be more talented.
But it's real, you know, and you know I take
that into consideration. It's not something I'll take lightly.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
Yeah, because I feel like the days of like being
on the street team then getting a weekend shift, those
days are like slow. It's because I talk to a
lot of programmers and they're like, yo, just the talent
pool is kind of you know, it's it's kind of shrinking, and.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
There's a lot of good people out there's a lot
of good radio people. There's a lot of great radio people.
Speaker 2 (45:48):
There's not a lot of great radio people. And I
think there's a lot of great If they are great,
you know, from three to seven or ten to three
or whatever, they're not willing to fully embrace what means
in twenty twenty three to be a radio person.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
So anymore.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
And that's where I tell everybody, like any of these
young jocks that will reach out to me, I'm like,
you have to This is a full like, this is
not a four hour day job. You gotta be a
content creator. You gotta you know, blogging aside blog you know,
because I know that's a big you know, if you
work at a radio station.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
One of most annoying things is I got a fucking but.
Speaker 2 (46:25):
Like, you have to be on your social you have
to build you You're a brand builder, man.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
One of the things that I love about my job,
and you know, I say this a lot internally. I
have like three or four morning shows on my team.
Got Big, I got Cruise, I got your show, and
we spent a lot of time early on I did
anyway explaining the science of PPM and how I thought
it would be the best way for you to garner
(46:51):
the most ratings. From a technical perspective, how you deliver,
when you deliver and stuff like that. But in terms
of the content, you guys have all handled that like
you guys do your.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Job and no one has to tell me nobody, Hey, yes,
it's like nor Big.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Nor Cruise to tell you guys go get content. Ninety
nine percent of the time I'm finding out is the
occasional I'll send you or them a text about something.
Oh yeah, I talked about that three days ago. You're like, damn,
Like you guys are on it, which makes for great radio.
But then you have people who don't have the talent
that you guys have, don't have the work ethic, that
(47:28):
won't want a job. I hear.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
I Sometimes I'll talk to like, you know, some of
my OG's in the radio game, and just the way
they talk, I'm just like, oh, this is this is
why you're not employed. Like, you know, they wanted me
to TikTok and I needed to post a certain amount
of times today and I'm like, listen, man, like this
is the world we live in, you know, like it
just is what it is.
Speaker 1 (47:50):
And that's the craziest thing. Man, I've had talent on
my team that have complained about stuff like that. I'd
be like, man, like, I don't get this plaint from
big boy. So you got a big It's difficult for
me to watch down this complaint from you that you've
got to Now, obviously he's put himself in a position
where he's got a team for sure, for sure facilitate
(48:12):
some of that stuff, but at the end of the day,
it gets done, and at some point in his career
he had to do it on his own as well.
So it's difficult for me to swallow the fact that
you got you know, you three four years into this
and you're already complaining about what you want to do.
It's kind of crazy.
Speaker 2 (48:28):
Was there ever an artist doc that you almost convinced
to be on the radio?
Speaker 1 (48:33):
An artist I did convince Keith Sweat to be on
a radio.
Speaker 2 (48:38):
Which he still is. So that was you.
Speaker 1 (48:41):
That's me.
Speaker 2 (48:41):
Oh, shout out to you.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
There was a time in my career because.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
You were doing the St. Louis slow jams.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
On a slow jam show, and there was a time
in my career where I wanted to be the slow
jam guy on everybody station. And my boss at the time,
Tom Owen, said. He said, Okay, that's that's interesting, and
he said you could be that guy or you could
be the guy that hires that guy. Which guy do
you want to be? I was like, h I want
(49:08):
to be the guy that hires that guy. And as
we began to move into that space where we were
looking for somebody to take that position, I always thought
I thought of Rob Kelly, and I thought of Keith.
Rob was still, by the way, good decision. Yeah, Rob
was still still irrelevant. Look at the time with current music,
(49:34):
and Keith that actually honestly expressed an interest that just
happened to run into him, and he expressed an interest
as I was getting ready to vacate the Saint Louis
job and we were getting ready to talk about who
was going to be that person.
Speaker 2 (49:47):
And it worked.
Speaker 1 (49:49):
It's just worked out perfectly.
Speaker 2 (49:50):
Because he's how long has that show been happening.
Speaker 1 (49:53):
Man, it's been He's been on it almost twenty years. Man,
That shit's crazy and doing well.
Speaker 2 (49:57):
Anybody that you tried to convince but it didn't maybe
just for whatever, I've heard some wild names about like
I mean, you know, we I've heard some names. Not
that necessarily you were involved with but.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
I had a comedian one time who I thought was hilarious,
that I really thought could do it, and he was
supposed to meet me in a market I think was Philadelphia.
He was supposed to meet me and Kevin Arten No,
and we were supposed to do We were supposed to
create an audition tape for him so that I could
submit it to our syndication company and talk about it.
(50:33):
And when a day came, he never showed up and
no showed, No showed. And let's say this was let's
say this was two thousand and nine, twenty nineteen. I'm
coming into our station here at Burdbank walking walk right
into him in a lobby do an interview, doing an
(50:54):
interview with big and didn't remember himself. I don't know
if you remember me, but you know, Doc from iHeart
you and I talked on time about syndication and you know,
you showed me and you never showed. He's like me
and I was like yeah, and he's like, what's your
name again? And I was just like, are you serious
right now? And then you know, we exchange numbers and
(51:14):
then he and me up. Ladies like man, I apologize
if you know that ever happened. He's I was doing
a lot of wild ship at that time. Could have
just slipped my mind. I was like, okay, cool, Well
what about now? I was like, nah, I'm good. I'm like, no,
I'm good. I don't think we ought to go back
down that road again.
Speaker 2 (51:30):
I was gonna say, like, for you, you're obviously you're
friends with a guy like Nick.
Speaker 1 (51:35):
Right.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
Nick ends up doing mornings for a short period of
time across the street. He was also on moving to
New York, which I'm sure was against I heeart at
a certain point in time, but like, what is it
like to compete against friends.
Speaker 1 (51:50):
I've had blunk conversations with Nick about you know, about radio.
I think he's a phenomenal television host and everything. I
just and and that's an art. This is what as
an artist. I've had conversation with him too. It's business man, you.
Speaker 2 (52:05):
Know, because I'm sure throughout your career that's happened.
Speaker 1 (52:09):
It's numerous, It's happened a few it's happened a few times,
and people have different Like Nick's a great guy, you gentlemen,
always always cool, and we had conversations before and after,
and you know, I just always thought it was gonna
be a tall order to go up against Big bigcause
you know, in l A.
Speaker 2 (52:28):
And being Nick Cannon, who's obviously got a million other
things on your plate, and you're not going to be
able to give the full bad width to the show
that it probably would need if you had a chance.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
Yeah. Nicka's just so talented man, It's it's crazy. But
you know they went on it. It did what it did.
But you know, again, it was hard to encroach into
big Span.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
I like what he's doing now on AMP.
Speaker 1 (52:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:52):
Yeah, what was the biggest record? You were just wrong
about that. You you just didn't like, you didn't think
it was a hit, but it ended up being crazy.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
Biggest record I was wrong about. I don't miss too
many records honestly. Really now it's as time has gone on,
I really rely a lot upon Ao and Amen.
Speaker 2 (53:18):
You were very good at that because I do. Because
we talked about the random white dudes running rythmic stations
and they don't have they just read the chart and
they don't have like a brain around them, like hey like.
And the other thing I'll say about you, Doc is
I always tell everybody this when they ask about you,
I'm like, man, doc is if a mixtape comes out,
the album comes out, the night it's out, he'll text me,
(53:40):
what do you think about track nine? I think nine
is the best one, or you know whatever, And I don't.
That's not it's your job, but I just don't think
a lot of program directors.
Speaker 1 (53:49):
That's my job and my guys, my team, like Ao,
who's in Miami now it'll be nine o'clock here and
I'm listening to the music, and he's in Miami. It's
twelve o'clock. He's listening to the music. And Amen is
in the bay and we're sending each other notes about
what song we want you to play at seven o'clock
at night, like we're passionate about yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:09):
Be like if a Drake album gets like I think
the last time it's surprised Drake album dropped.
Speaker 1 (54:13):
We're all on grip chat.
Speaker 2 (54:14):
Which one, which one? What's the what's the single?
Speaker 1 (54:17):
Yeah? So no, I mean I like to I like
to stay tapped in. Man, that's a that's a good question.
Like I've been in I've been doing it so long.
Like usually when I hear the hits, I hear the hits.
Not too many that I've I've missed.
Speaker 2 (54:34):
I feel like nowadays, I feel like there's more and
more songs that I'll hear and I'll be like, because
you know, TikTok is such a weird tool, and you know,
now we have a lot of songs, like like, there's
songs throughout the years that just had recently where there's
just been no hook. He'd be like, where's the hook?
(54:55):
It didn't matter, there's are hard records to point.
Speaker 1 (54:59):
Yeah, but you did say something earlier when you mentioned
you mentioned fetti Wop. I remember having some conversations with
Lee or around that time, because we're a format like
any other brand, like you need stars, and I thought
he was a star. He was a star, and I
thought the first album was amazing.
Speaker 2 (55:21):
Twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen when he went on told with
Chris Brown as many people showed.
Speaker 1 (55:25):
Up to see him the album was crazy. And then
as they started moving on to the next project, I
honestly thought that there were still better songs on the
first project. I remember, you know, getting a record and
listening to it and Lea and I got into kind
of it.
Speaker 2 (55:38):
He did discussion, is that the song with no hook?
Speaker 1 (55:41):
Yeah? I think it was about school or something like that.
Speaker 2 (55:43):
But there was a song that you and I listened
to in the office and there was no hook. It
was like he was trying to do a Dreams of
Nightmares stay.
Speaker 1 (55:49):
It was something different. Yeah, I remember Lee all like,
you know, you got to give an artist, you know,
a chance to grow with it. And I'm like, yeah,
but it's gotta be a hit, yeah, and like he
needs a hit like I need him, I need I
need him because he was the face of our format
in some respects for that year. And now you look
up and it's twenty twenty three and.
Speaker 2 (56:05):
It's he's about to go to get lot.
Speaker 1 (56:08):
Gone, you know. And it's just like the NBA. You
gotta have a face. You have had faces right now.
You know. It's it's it's Drake, It's you know, the Weekend,
It's it's Kendrick, It's Rihanna, Cardi Carti, you want, you want.
We need more faces, Like we can't look up five
(56:31):
years from now and it's still those guys. You know.
We got to have some more faces, just like the
NBA needs new faces when Lebron and Steph go away.
I mean it's important.
Speaker 2 (56:40):
So you have a great relationship with the guys that
XO in the Weekend, What is it like hanging out
with somebody who is so you know, to the fans,
kind of mysterious and not out there like the Weekend
is somebody who if you're around them, he's just a
normal guy. But like he's definitely not that if you
just consume his content. He's a very mysterious guy. And
(57:02):
I think he's probably going to get out of that
soon with the show coming out and all that.
Speaker 1 (57:05):
He's a really nice dude MANE like just really impressed
with his character, as I am with j cole like
character man Like as famous as they are, you kind
of like watch them from a from Afar and you're like,
you know, it's a good dude man, you know, gives
people their attention. You can only imagine that he's getting
(57:25):
pulled in several directions. I've seen able at you know,
family functions, you know, with the XO team, Like, Wow,
he's here and he's engaged. It's not I mean I
mean engaged in terms of he's engaging in conversation. He's
not on his phone right, you know, say I look
up and he's playing with my son and I mean
(57:45):
that to me is what really sets them apart, Like
they're just good human beings. Man.
Speaker 2 (57:51):
I enjoy being in the company. The one thing I
want to kind of breakdown is the science and why
the number one complaint I've been getting from listeners and
you've been getting from listeners your whole your whole career.
Why is it every time I hear the fucking radio
it's the same fucking ten songs. Now, there is a
science to this, but that's I'm sure that that's been
(58:13):
the feedback for however many years. You guys play the
same shit. You guys play the same shit. Break down
from Doc Winner the science of why a radio playlist
is very tight and why you might hear five or
six songs over and over again if you listen all
day driving an uber or something.
Speaker 1 (58:29):
I like to use the analogy of a nightclub. Our
job is to retain listeners. Right. Let's say if you
were at a nightclub and the DJ decided he wanted
to go off on a rant and play, you know,
thirty minutes of Frank Sinatra or whatever clear to dance,
clear the dance floor, they probably stay and wait until
he got came back to his senses doesn't happen in radio.
(58:51):
They go find the other they go, they may not
come back. I've actually been in a car and not
in the case of playing bad music, but a very
long commercial break, and saw this uber driver listening to us,
you know, go to the competition. Obviously he was preferred
(59:12):
us come back. We were still playing commercials. I could
see his anger. I'm gonna go back there instead, because
you know, and what retains them is a record that
they like that they can sing, not necessarily something they've
never heard.
Speaker 2 (59:30):
Right, I think. So I always tell people it's like
the average radio listeners how many minutes to.
Speaker 1 (59:35):
Day might be ten fifteen minutes.
Speaker 2 (59:38):
So if you think about it in that through that
lens we have we talked about PPM. The meters are
like people get paid to wear these little pages and
attracts their real time listening. So it's like you're hoping
to play something to keep somebody around in that ten
minute window that they happen to LISTENEP. So the research
and data on how you come up with what the
(59:59):
five powers are what all goes into that.
Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Probably the most important thing is who you're going to ask,
you know, do you like this record. You know, who's
your screen is what they call you know, it might
be eighteen to thirty four year old women, It could
be eighteen and thirty four year old men. It could
be eighteen to thirty four year old black women, eighteen
and thirty four year old Latino women.
Speaker 2 (01:00:25):
As a programmer, you got to know what.
Speaker 1 (01:00:26):
You got to know what moves the needle in your
market for your down You know, eighteen to thirty four
Latino females who listen to radio three hours. You can
get that granular with it, and then you begin to understand,
you know, what moves the needle for them. The more
you listen to, the more you do research, and the
(01:00:47):
more you ask the right questions, you get a sense
of okay, like this is what moves the needle for them,
and then you give people what they want to keep
coming back. You have to go to a restaurant and
all of a sudden they tell you, all, we stop
making your favorite meal.
Speaker 2 (01:01:01):
I just had just happened to make it my favorite meal.
Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
Why, yeah, we got bored with it just happened. Come on, man, Yeah,
So I mean that's the science. And again it can
be frustrating for people, but you know.
Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
And there's a bunch of factors. Right, You'll have like
call out, which is where you're pretty much kind of
is that a how would you describe call out?
Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
For radio station? You call out to people that fit
the screen, and you play hooks of songs, ask.
Speaker 2 (01:01:27):
What do you think of this song? What do you
think of this song? You'll see streaming data for the
market you checked the Shazam so uh. And then there's
also the M scores, which is is that something you guys?
Obviously M scores is like.
Speaker 1 (01:01:41):
I look at it, but you know, somebody could have
turned a song off. You don't really know what the
reason is. And that's what the switching score is. Someone
turned off the song or a number of people turned
off the song while it was playing. And sometimes you
can look at the song and say, okay, you see
other factors that contribute to you know, might be the
wrong time that you played the song, might just be
(01:02:01):
tired of it, rested and then tested again. Is what
we like to sing.
Speaker 2 (01:02:06):
But where do you see not only just radio obviously radio,
but just music going in the next five years or
so dark because it's it's I mean, it's forever evolving.
Everything is changing.
Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
We've been talking about this R and B thing for
the last two or three years, coming backs, coming back.
I know we're getting a lot of R and B
records that are that are our audience is really enjoying.
Here in La There's Latin trap that I think is
making it has been around for a number of years,
(01:02:36):
that it's making a compelling case to be a part
of our arsenal on the radio. Man, we're just we're
looking for hits. Man. I mean, you talk to a
lot of people right now, they think that this is
amongst the worst cycles that we've had in a.
Speaker 2 (01:02:51):
Long time in terms of people making records records. I
feel like most of the female artists are the ones
who are providing like real records. Like I'm thinking car
even quoil right. Really it's like yo, Like, you know,
I don't know what it is about that either.
Speaker 1 (01:03:08):
Because I think times are different. When you think about
curating artists. Back in the nineties, it was pre streaming,
and so if you decided to take the Sleep of
Faith and someone thought that you were you know, you
had the talent, you went for it, you know, because
going for it means that you were going to sell
(01:03:28):
a lot of records. You're going to go on tour
and you're going to make a lot of money. Now
here's this streaming thing? Or I just keep throwing shots,
Just keep throwing shots out and you can make a
lot of money.
Speaker 2 (01:03:37):
And yeah, what's my what's my incentive to make up
to be great?
Speaker 1 (01:03:42):
What's my incentive to be great when I can take
care of my family because I'm making money, you know,
putting out a lot of music.
Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
Unfortunately, you've obviously had to fire a lot of people
in your career.
Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
I've had to part ways with people. I like to
put it that way.
Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
What is the craziest reason you've had to part ways
with an employee without saying who they are?
Speaker 1 (01:04:01):
Obviously? Well, I've had a couple of hygiene issues.
Speaker 2 (01:04:12):
Really Yeah, so someone's stink they smelled bad. Yeah, what's
that conversation? Like?
Speaker 1 (01:04:22):
Like, I think I think that brother was just in
and I have to think about it that that brother
at that time, he was just I think he'd gotten
a divorce and he was just having a rough time. Yeah,
he got in divorced and he was living in a
hotel and you know, but it was it was making
the working experience unbearable because he didn't he wasn't showering. Man,
(01:04:46):
what else? Damn fad some I've had so many crazy
experiences that just beyond And one of the craziest was
I'm in Jacksonville and a buddy of mine had a
friend that listened to the radio station, and she wanted
(01:05:08):
to meet with me about some type of charity event
that the radio station was going to support. And at
the time, I was doing afternoons in Jacksonville slow jam
show in Saint Louis, and I was overseeing whatever urbans
we had at the time. I think it might have
been five before I got to the eighty that I
(01:05:29):
do now, but it was like five or so, and
I remember her coming in my office. I'm in the
office and I'm kind of like not really paying attention
on like, yeah, it sounds like a great idea. Why'n't
you leave something with my assistant? And she said, okay,
and one other thing, and she gets up and she
locks my door and she starts to disroll and I
just remember saying, Yo, what are you doing, and my
(01:05:54):
face and my eyes locked with her eyes, and she
realized that and then she just started crying, and so
I you know, I sat her down in my chair
and I was like, yo, like like what are you doing?
Like was this like your plan? Like this was your
you thought this? Did you think this through it all?
Like I just you know, And I was like, yeah,
(01:06:17):
I'm flattered, but like it's this is not going down
like this, man. And I feel bad that you feel
like you want to sit here and compose yourself because
right now I'm starting to think like, okay, so what
can happen right now? Yeah, you're crying buying woman in
my office, you know. And so when got my assistant,
you know, gave her some tissue, told her to sit
here for a while, and you know, when you're ready
to go go, I gotta go do my show.
Speaker 2 (01:06:37):
But you know, like that's crazy.
Speaker 1 (01:06:40):
It was, it was it was kind of nice.
Speaker 2 (01:06:42):
Have you ever had someone in your Jacksonville days fly
to Jacksonville to you face to face to be like, Yo,
what the fuck? Why is the song not getting played?
I feel like listen. I don't want to keep saying
did I feel like didd He's the kind of guy
who might like just show up to the office one day.
I could be wrong.
Speaker 1 (01:06:58):
No, No, he's not He's not that kind of guy.
He's not like I mean, he'll text me about a record.
But you know again, I think I don't really I
don't emote that, so I don't really get that back.
That's good. Yeah, I'm not gonna say something crazy to
did he He's not going to say something crazy to me.
And every once in a while when I when I
do get that kind of response, I'm not that guy.
(01:07:20):
I'm just like, Okay, cool, I'm out you.
Speaker 2 (01:07:24):
We did Real Street Fest in two thousand and nineteen
or eighteen? What year do we do th Street Fests?
Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
Did it in nine nineteen? Yeah, Pandemic was in twenty Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:07:34):
We had a great, great time, and we always talk
about you, and I like the radio show is kind
of dying, Like obviously iHeart has the jingle Ball Tour,
they have all these things that are very like top
forty friendly even there, you know, shout out to the
iHeart Festival that we do in Vegas every year. You
are you do you can you foresee or I know
(01:07:56):
it's something that you want to do. But an urban
hip hop verse version nationally of some sort of show
or festival.
Speaker 1 (01:08:06):
I mean, I hope so I thought about it for years,
but you know, every year something some dynamic changes, right,
you know, went from the radio show to us realizing
we need to do festivals and put together this great event.
Speaker 2 (01:08:17):
It was amazing, and then the pandemic, and.
Speaker 1 (01:08:19):
The pandemic kicks in, and then you know, now we're
in the middle of a financial crisis, and you know,
it's hard for you to go to your company and say, hey,
give me these millions of dollars to throw an event
that may not make the money back, and so you instead,
you you, you know, you start partnerships with people who
do that for a living and say, hey, how can
(01:08:40):
we do this together? Do this together. I'll give me
a bunch of tickets to give away, and you know
kind of what happened with Dre and the Super Bowl
Doctor Dre, which was crazy. You know, Big Big have
a great relationship, gave us tickets to sit in his
suite in the Super Bowl for us to give away.
Speaker 2 (01:08:55):
And then obviously the Drake tours come in. Drake Tour,
remember some of these mega festivals.
Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
Yeah, the Kanye and Drake show that we gave away
right before.
Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
Yeah, yeah, m did you go to that? Oh yeah,
I was in a dr with my wife for anniversary. Yeah,
watching it on Amazon, it was not It was legendary.
Do you see yourself ever leaving radio?
Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
I mean yeah, I mean I've been doing it for
thirty four years as my anniversary in January, So at
some point because.
Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
I could see at some point, you know, Apple coming
and being like, hey, Doc.
Speaker 1 (01:09:36):
I mean I get I get approached to be on
boards right now, which are of interest to me. Wow,
because you get an opportunity to play at a different
pond that you don't normally play with. But also, you know,
use the relationships you've established over years to you know,
to make some headway. So I mean, I don't know, man.
I mean I try to stay in shape, and.
Speaker 2 (01:09:59):
Yeah, you you are the definition of black done craw.
Speaker 1 (01:10:02):
I try to stay in shape and and I got
I got a young son who's.
Speaker 2 (01:10:07):
Yeah, he's young, and he's hooping.
Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
He's a hockey player.
Speaker 2 (01:10:09):
Oh, he's playing hockey.
Speaker 1 (01:10:10):
A black hockey player.
Speaker 2 (01:10:11):
Hey, there's a few of those.
Speaker 1 (01:10:13):
And he's four. You know what I'm saying. So you know,
I want to spend more time with him.
Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
Yeah, you were on you called and yelled at us
while your wife was in labor.
Speaker 1 (01:10:22):
Oh man, that was the craziest thing ever. I don't
know why why I answered the phone that you guys
kept calling.
Speaker 2 (01:10:29):
We did the celebrity smash thing. I was like, I'd
be damned if we let this ship fly over these
airways before we get the green light a doc winner.
Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
So I'm in the hospital holding one of my wife's
leg as my son is coming out and the nurse
is holding the other leg and he just got, you know,
my phone. I'm just like, yo, what it's gotta be
an emergency? Why you guys keep calling? So I answered
the phone and the nurse looks at me like are
you fucking kidding me right now?
Speaker 2 (01:10:56):
And your wife's screaming in the background and me and
for sure assume you guys were having sex. So I
was like, yo, doctors answered the phone while he's lady,
And then we realized, oh, there was a baby.
Speaker 1 (01:11:10):
Yeah, my son's My son's crown was out at the
time you guys are calling, and I was like, my
wife's like can you answer the phone? The son is
coming out of me. I was like, yeah, it's important.
Speaker 2 (01:11:23):
Before you go. What are your top five favorite albums
of all time? Off the top of your head without
thinking about.
Speaker 1 (01:11:27):
Top five favorite albums in music.
Speaker 2 (01:11:31):
In music, I'll give you that. You don't have to
say it.
Speaker 1 (01:11:36):
Definitely Lauren Miseducational Lauren Hill. It was groundbreaking. Uh Keith
Sweat's first album, Make It Last Forever Victorius, which one
ready to Die Your Life after Death, Ready to Die
Damn actually posted these one time on my on my Instagram.
(01:12:00):
Uh Dad, who was the other one? Who's the album?
And when I talk about a album, I mean I'm
just playing every track on the ALP because it's that good.
And I've been around for a long time, so it
it's hard to lock down five. I do remember uh
(01:12:21):
Jay's first album Reasonable Doubt. Reasonable Doubt was incredible, incredible.
I remember Tifically Green saying is this guy from New
York He's gonna be the greatest rapper ever? And I
was like, really, it's a big thing to say. No.
She's like, no, he's a guy, and like she was right.
(01:12:41):
She was right, And uh, I don't.
Speaker 2 (01:12:48):
Know anything more recently that you just can can remember
just liking, like, Yo, this is just a body of
work that I.
Speaker 1 (01:12:54):
Would be remiss if I didn't say. I just think
that Drake is remarkable, man, just and it's it's an
interesting conversation because you know, we're about to celebrate the
fiftieth anniversary of hip hop. I happened to be around
New York City at the time when it was bubbling up.
In most instances, New Yorkers claim, you know, we claimed everything,
(01:13:16):
the best basketball, but you could claim hip hop, claim
hip hop and factual, I remember playing ball and thinking
that we were the only guys that could do it,
and coming to Vegas and playing in a in a turn.
Speaker 3 (01:13:29):
Like pizza basketball hip hop is no debate, playing against
Byron Scott and like yo, we went back home, like yo,
these dudes from l A can play ball, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:13:41):
But so the purest will definitely find it difficult to
accept the fact that a dude from from Canada might
be to go. But when you think about body of war,
as long as I've been in this business, to have
(01:14:02):
a body of work from a radio perspective where we
research music.
Speaker 2 (01:14:07):
Yeah, from our perspective from the radio side, there's nobody
who's ever been close.
Speaker 1 (01:14:11):
It's it's the most insane thing that you've ever seen.
Speaker 2 (01:14:14):
Like he's the most prolific hit maker we've ever seen.
Speaker 1 (01:14:16):
It's literally even when you sort the list by artists,
it's just literally his songs and his name, and then
the score on the right is is through the roof.
And you're just like, I've never seen anybody do anything
like that.
Speaker 2 (01:14:30):
Who's the Who's second in that list? Because if you
were to pull up like titles in the library, who
would be the second person?
Speaker 1 (01:14:37):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (01:14:37):
Like Wayne? Is it the pain? I mean, I don't know,
you know.
Speaker 1 (01:14:40):
Like man, there's not a lot of people that.
Speaker 2 (01:14:43):
Have nobody has the Drake list.
Speaker 1 (01:14:46):
You might, you might maybe maybe Wayne. It's a good
it's a really good question. Maybe it's Wayne. But it's
not only that the list is long.
Speaker 2 (01:14:53):
It's just the quality, the research quality.
Speaker 1 (01:14:56):
It's the research, like you could you could he might
be able to do a show with these twenty songs
this night and another twenty songs another you could do
a show with all the feature another Yeah, and who
could do that?
Speaker 2 (01:15:11):
I'll give you that. Nobody could do that.
Speaker 1 (01:15:13):
But but again, I honestly remember when I put real
on in LA there's an artist who again I won't name,
but he told me like they don't like his music here,
and I was just like hunhi, like Noah, like this
West Coast, look, we don't like them. I'm like, dude,
like you're really wrong.
Speaker 2 (01:15:32):
Like there's not a place where people don't like Drake's music.
Speaker 1 (01:15:35):
Yeah, yeah, Like this guy could sell out, uh you
know Crypto for four or five nights like they like him.
Yeah for you.
Speaker 2 (01:15:43):
Coming to La. I was on the radio when Dan dropped,
and there was just that moment when Kendrick dropped. Damn,
those songs would not go away, like Love and obviously Hunt,
but there was just songs that were in power rotation
for like two years.
Speaker 1 (01:16:01):
It's a great album.
Speaker 2 (01:16:02):
It was just wild to like I just remember being like, fuck, man,
like I love this album.
Speaker 1 (01:16:07):
I fucking hate it cause all I do is play
these fucking songs all day. I love the fact that
it was at a time when you just put a
station on in LA and it was a guy from La,
a brother at that you know, who had a management
team around him that were brothers, and so I mean
it was just perfect timing for us. A lot of
things like that fell into our lap. You remember our
first show in LA that we did, Real Show twenty fifteen.
(01:16:31):
We had Kendrick was the headliner. We had future. He
and Drake had just done a show and we get
a called Sunday Morning. You know, he came out right,
he's pulling up.
Speaker 2 (01:16:42):
I wasn't there yet, but I remember seeing it.
Speaker 1 (01:16:45):
You never seen, never felt anything like that in an
arena in my life when he stepped out on that stage.
I actually have a picture in my office. You got it.
The craziest momentum I've ever seen. And I was like, man, like,
we're going to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:16:59):
I haven't think till like, I think the first real
show I might have been a part of was j
Cole headlining and Cardi B was Yeah, was on the show,
but this was prime. This was like, I mean, Cardi
had records, but it wasn't like first album way early.
Speaker 1 (01:17:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:17:18):
Yeah, I don't even know if the first album was
out very long.
Speaker 1 (01:17:21):
I hadn't been out long, yeah, saying that she only
had one album, right.
Speaker 2 (01:17:24):
Yeah, but I remember being in the dressing room and
like seeing them to talk.
Speaker 1 (01:17:29):
Yeah yep, and I think he was giving her something. Yeah,
I've seen a couple of those. If you remember Real
street Fest what you d call it was on our show.
Speaker 2 (01:17:39):
Yeah, I interviewed her. Yeah, she's it's crazy I always
tell the homies at r A. I'm like, you guys,
fucking drop so easy. If you work at a public RCA,
good fucking luck. You don't have to work your records much. Hey,
I have a new Drake song, it's added. I have
a new Weekend song. It's added.
Speaker 1 (01:17:55):
Man, When we added Doja to that show, Let's say
our show was in August and we out at her
like maybe in May, she she was not. She was
not the same person by the time the Tiger remix,
by the time by the next year she is gone.
It went from who.
Speaker 2 (01:18:13):
Is this person?
Speaker 1 (01:18:14):
To yeah, man, those those are the stories that that
that I love because you got to think the radio
has something to do with that undred percent.
Speaker 2 (01:18:23):
Well, look, Doc, I appreciate you. You guys can go
follow Doc if you want to follow him. He does not.
You're not like a big social media guys.
Speaker 1 (01:18:33):
Doc. When is.
Speaker 2 (01:18:35):
Anything else on the way? Signing on more radio stations? Obviously,
you know, I know that iheart's kind of going through
the financial ship right now, but like you've weathered a
million storms in that in that sense, but like anything
coming that you're excited about, are you.
Speaker 1 (01:18:49):
Just cultivating or living black? This year, that'll be in August, okay,
and basically paying homage to hip hop's fifty then of
her Like, dude, I was, I was back there in
the seventies, Like, couldn't tell me as amazing as it was.
Celebrating this thing fififty years later, and it would mean
(01:19:10):
what it meant to our community. It gave people, like
gave brothers. They're brothers that are millionaires, a number of
them from it. It's it's amazing.
Speaker 2 (01:19:20):
Did you ever have any big yer Tupac moments.
Speaker 1 (01:19:23):
Tupac interview Tupac in La after Jason's lyrics or Poetic
Justice Justice for the Poetic Justice movie was he clearly
had been out the night before, still smelled like alcohol,
but he was so well spoken. And then after the interview,
(01:19:44):
I remember I was flying back to Saint Louis and
my lady, who was my first wife, was sitting in
the lobby reading a book, and he saw her and
he took off running towards her, and his boy like
tackled him and pulled him to the side, and he
started laughing, and she was oblivious to it. I always remembers, like, damn,
what would happen if he had gotten to her like problem.
Speaker 2 (01:20:07):
She might have been your former wife a lot earlier.
Speaker 1 (01:20:09):
Could have been, could have been, but no, Man, thank
you for doing this.
Speaker 2 (01:20:13):
Of course, Doc. Appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (01:20:15):
Man.
Speaker 2 (01:20:16):
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