Pivoting to Passion: The Journey into Brand Photography | Erica and Jon - The BOP with Rob Greene (Business of Photography)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
You're listening to the Bop the business of
photography podcast with RobGreen, a photographer to
contagiously positive clientsand fierce believer in building
people-focused businesses thatleave a lasting impact.
If you're an entrepreneur withdreams in your head, ideas in
your heart and passions burningdeep down in your soul, this is
the perfect place to be, becausethis is where dreams come to

(00:33):
thrive.
So are you ready to build yourbusiness, wow your clients and
make photo magic?
Here's your host, rob Green.

Rob Greene (00:43):
Aww, coming at you from Fort Worth Texas.
You are listening to Season 2,episode 1 of the Bop.
So excited to be back with youagain.
Friends, if we have not met yet, just so you know, my name's
Rob.
I am a photographer andeducator based out of Fort Worth
, texas, and I am thrilled to beback with you for Season 2.

(01:05):
This is actually kind of asurreal moment for me because as
I'm recording this episode, Iam also about to be tearing down
this whole studio space as partof a move to another city here
in Texas to try and get readyfor all that's to come with that
, and so I'm like going throughthis whole process of getting

(01:28):
all my thoughts together and outonto the mic for you guys,
while at the same time going man, I gotta tear all this down.
This is about to get crazy.
The next week of my life isgonna be nuts, but I'm so stoked
to be able to share with youthis first episode before we
tear down and rebuild in timefor Episode 2.
It's gonna be great If you'retuning in with us for the first

(01:51):
time today.
There's three things I want youto know.
First, let me just say welcome.
So glad you are here.
There are so many differentways you could be spending your
time and I'm thrilled you chooseto spend some of it with me
hanging out with my guests.
You're just gonna get so muchfrom this time together.
We do not take your time forgranted.
Second, after you're donelistening to today's episode, be

(02:12):
sure and go back to Season 1and check out some of those
interviews as well, because,y'all, there's so much richness
packed into those eight episodesfrom Season 1.
And third, here's just a littlesnapshot for you of what the
BOP is all about.
The BOP stands for the businessof photography and it's a
podcast that's designed toanchor you to the reasons why
you do what you do.

(02:33):
It's a podcast designed toinspire you with a vision for
what could be in your life andin your business.
But y'all, most of all, it is apodcast designed to set you in
action, to activate you insideyour business, to leave you with
a clearer picture of what towork on next in your business,
because, y'all, inspiration byitself doesn't get you anywhere,

(02:53):
but inspiration plus activationequals transformation.
We've got an incredibleinterview in store for you guys
today with my friends Erica andJohn, to kick off Season 2.
But before we jump in with thosetwo, it's time for today's BOP
Bites.
If you're new with us, bopBites are these little,
bite-sized nuggets of goodnessthat, if you've only got a few
minutes to listen to today,maybe you're on your way to

(03:14):
class or work, you're sitting inthe car in traffic.
You just got a little bit oftime.
I want to make sure you havesomething to chew on throughout
the rest of your week and then,hopefully, when you've got more
time, you can come back andlisten to the rest.
So today's BOP Bite is thisFaithfulness in the small things
leads to readiness for the bigthings.
I'm going to say that againbecause this BOP Bite may have

(03:34):
just smacked a few of youbetween the eyes.
You're like, hey, come on, wejust started here, why are you
diving into the deep end?
But yes, faithfulness in thesmall things leads to readiness
for the big things.
Y'all, it's easy to look at theperson with the big following
or the big booked out scheduleor the killer website and think,
yes, that that's big time.

(03:55):
That's what I want.
Give me more of that.
But, y'all, the problem is, ifwe're being honest, we're not
always ready for that.
Sometimes we're not ready forall that comes with a massive
Instagram following becausespoiler alert, it's not always
rosy.
Sometimes our client experienceor our systems and our
workflows behind the scenes arenot ready to sustain a massive

(04:18):
influx of bookings.
In fact, some of you, if a hugerush of business came in the
day, in your mind you may bethinking that sounds great, but
the reality is, when all thatbusiness comes in, if you don't
have the systems, you're goingto wind up overwhelmed and burnt
out as a result of all of it.
And then sometimes ourcharacter just isn't ready for
all that comes with thenotoriety or the extra dollars
sitting in our bank account.

(04:40):
And so if you're in a seasonthat feels small right now and
you're wanting more, you'rewanting bigger.
You're wanting the very bestthat you can possibly do with
your life and your business.
I just want to encourage you,friend.
There's so much goodness toglean from this season.
Stay faithful.
You're cutting your teeth onsome foundational principles

(05:01):
right now in your business thatare preparing you for what's to
come.
The time you're spending rightnow learning how to design a
website or build your email list, or figure out what the heck
reels are, or setting up aseparate bank account for your
business or photographing familymembers, because that's the
only people that'll let youpractice on them.
Y'all these are not wastedmoments.

(05:23):
These are faithfulness moments,and if you'll just remain
faithful to the little thingsthat are right there in front of
you right now, when successcomes your way later you're
going to be ready for it.
That's it for today's Bop Byte.
When we come back, my friendsEric and John will join the show
to tell you all about why theywalked away from the wedding

(05:43):
industry and why it might betime for you to do the same, or
maybe not.
Here's one thing I know you'llhave a much clearer idea of
whether that move is for youafter listening to these two
share their hearts.
We'll be right back.
You know what no photographerever asks how can I make less
money?
As small business owners, we'realways looking to make just a

(06:04):
little bit more, and most of usjust need someone to show us how
.
What if I told you college andsorority photography could give
you not one, not two, but 17different ways to make more
money in the months ahead?
To download my free guide,visit square8studiocom.
Slash 17ways today.
Welcome back.

(06:27):
I am thrilled to kick off seasontwo with today's guests because
these two have blown my mindfrom the moment I met them this
past spring.
If this is your first timelistening to the show, you need
to know I'm a huge believer thatit's always a good idea to
decide who you're going to bebefore you decide what you're
going to do.
And you all today's guests areamazing people.

(06:48):
They're like the poster couplefor that.
You know, captain of thefootball team meets Disney
princess romance that everybodydreams about.
You know they've got thisenergy and enthusiasm for life
and they don't shy away frommaking difficult choices for the
sake of long term growth and,as we'll hear more about as this
interview goes on, doing thetotally counter cultural thing
in photography world and walkingaway from the wedding industry.

(07:11):
So you guys, if you sit downwith them for even just a few
minutes, you're going to learnthat they just believe fiercely
in the potential within each andevery person.
So I'm so excited to have themon the show.
They just live with such asweet sincerity of heart that
really shines through in everyconversation, whether it's from
the stage or across the dinnertable and y'all.
I was so impressed getting theC firsthand how these two parent

(07:33):
, because they have managed toorient their life and their
business in a way that allowsthem to be present and available
for their kids while alsorunning a wildly successful
business.
Basically, these two are prettymuch living legends, so it's my
privilege to welcome to the bopErica and John.
How are you friends?

Erica Hayes (07:51):
Oh my gosh man, what a good intro, thank you,
that was like the kindest thingI've ever heard someone say.

Jon Hayes (07:57):
If we ever write a book, I'm going to have Rob
write the forward.

I know I missed the time that you were playing
football Like, were you guys?
Yeah, that's just it, ifthere's only one correction it's
I actually played.

Jon Hayes (08:07):
No, that's not true.
I played one sport growing up.
I was on the basketball team.
I got put on academic probationand they made me serve popcorn
at the games in uniform.
So that was my claim to fame inthe sports world, but I'll take
the captain of the footballteam.

I know I was like, wow, Rob knows something that I
don't know.

Rob Greene (08:24):
Amazing John, could you dunk a basketball?
Absolutely not Same Same, nohesitation, I can't do it the
same way.

Jon Hayes (08:33):
Absolutely not.
But, man, we're so excited tobe here and again, thank you for
all of those very kind words.
I hope we can live up to a bitof that, but also just super
excited to be here with yourcommunity and bring value during
this time together.
That's what we're all about.
We want to.
The life goal, the businessgoal, everything that we have is
to make a positive impact onothers.

(08:54):
So thanks for the opportunityto come and share with your
audience and hopefully make apositive impact on them.

Rob Greene (09:00):
Absolutely, man, so stoked to have y'all here.
I know I've said a few thingsabout you guys, but you gotta
know one of my favorite thingsto do when we have husband and
wife duos come on the show islet y'all introduce each other
by sharing what you love mostabout each other.
So we did this with James andJess in season one, back in
episode three, and then weclosed out season one letting
Amy and Jordan do the same, andthese are just such a sweet

(09:22):
little moment to watch.
You guys get allouchie-goo-chee over each other,
so feel free to make each otherblush.
I'm just gonna shut up now andlet y'all take the wheel.

Okay well, I'm gonna let you go first, I get to
go first, all right perfect.

Jon Hayes (09:33):
Well, I would like to introduce you all to my
beautiful wife, erica.
Erica is she is a dedicated,driven person and also very
stubborn, in the best waypossible.
Stubborn to the point of mehaving to pursue her heart for

(09:54):
four or five years before Ifinally beat out all the other
boys and she decided she'd giveme a chance.
So a well-fought battle, and Iget to live every day by her
side, so grateful that I cameout with it If I got one trophy,
that was the trophy I got.
The best one I could, but Ericais a driven, compassionate,
beautiful woman inside and out.

(10:14):
We would not be where we aretoday, I would say, as a couple,
as parents or as businessowners, if it weren't for the
strong drive, the belief thatshe has in us and in me as her
husband and as a man.
So if you're looking for awoman who embodies just absolute

(10:37):
relentless faith and drivenmotivation, paired with care and
compassion and a true heart tojust make a positive impact on
the world, then this is mylovely, beautiful wife, erica.

Well, nobody prepared me that I'd possibly
need to bring tissues to yourpodcast, rob.
Last time we were hanging outwe were cracking up at dinner,
so this is taking a wild turn.
But thank you very much forthat.
That was very nice and I wouldlike to introduce you to my
husband, the captain of our home.

(11:16):
This is John.
He's our family leader and Ijust like the overall thing to
say is that he is a strongleader for our family, and not
just our family, but now for ourbusiness and our lives and just
stepping into taking us justthrough all the journeys that
we're on, he's the life of theparty.

(11:36):
Anytime it's a photo shoot, ifwhatever it is, this guy's the
life of the party In a smallsetting.
He has so many hidden talentsthat he will keep to himself,
but he's extremely talented,extremely successful in the
things that he set his mind to,and I think that's just the
thing is where he has a, wherethere's a will, there's a way

(12:00):
and he has a will to doing somany things, doing them while
figuring them out and justfinding a way to accomplish
anything that he sets his mindto.
But that's him in a work kindof setting, but as a parent,
he's the greatest dad to ourkids.
Like I, as a little girl, Ialways just like wished I would

(12:21):
and I prayed like I have tomarry someone like my dad who is
involved in my sister and I andour lives and just leads our
family, has fun with us, is ahelper around the house.
This is the guy.
He changed our son's very firstdiaper.
I didn't even in the hospital,it was this guy.
So it just goes to show that hehas not only a hand and like

(12:41):
helping in the business thingsand making everything work, but
also in our household and in ourkids' lives.
This is the guy right herewho's just involved in it all
and not wanting to miss out onall the important things for our
kids and our family, and I justI love and appreciate that so
much.

Jon Hayes (12:59):
Wow, I feel like a million bucks.
Is this the end of the podcast?
Because between Rob and you andEric I'm like I think I'm ready
to go take on the world.

Rob Greene (13:08):
That's it y'all.
Go have a date night now andenjoy.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
Perfect.

Rob Greene (13:12):
Oh man Well.
So I'm curious because I know alot of our listeners this may
be their first time connectingwith you guys, so I'd love to
hear just a little bit aboutwhat prompted you guys to first
pick up a camera.
How did y'all get into thephotography business to start
with?

Yeah well, there was a camera glued to my hands
from the time I was like eightyears old and it was a
disposable camera, kodiak, likethe yellow wrapping.
I had to save up my allowancesto like have all my film exposed
.
I always had a camera in myhands, but I really fell in love
with it in high school when Idid photography classes and got
into the dark room and got intothat side of photography.

(13:50):
But it was when we were havingour son.
I was just like I don't want towork a standard job, like I
want to be home, but I just havethis creative itch to like just
do something and to also getout of the house every now and
then.
Still like fulfill and chasesomething of me, not as a mom,

(14:11):
but also just like me, and whatI love is Erica.

Jon Hayes (14:14):
Well, cause we had kids.
We got married really young andwe had babies right away.
Like if you asked us what islife supposed to look like?

Speaker 1 (14:21):
it's like apparently you get married young and have
babies right away.
I don't know why.

Jon Hayes (14:24):
That was like our default.
Thinking like this is what wedo.
And so we were married at 20.

20,.
I was 20, you were 22.

Jon Hayes (14:30):
22, and then we had our son.
Our son the very next year,yeah.
So it was like boom, boom,things were happening fast, yeah
, but I loved the camera.

And then, of course , we had a son and I'm like I
can do this and I saw a friendwho was doing it and I'm like I
could do this.
I've never thought of doingthis like as a business, because
I've not ever had businessmodeled for me, but like I just
want to do this.
It was just like that itch tojust do something for myself, be
able to work for myself.
And then this guy came into thepicture because he was not in

(14:59):
the picture at the beginning.
He was selling tractors andworking on corporate job
tractors.
Yeah, my transition intophotography Tractors, it's a
very natural.

Jon Hayes (15:06):
I think you hear most photographers say this.
So I used to be.
I like to call this version ofmyself cowboy John, so I used to
wear a pearl snap, arietteshirts and Ariette jeans and
cowboy boots Absolutely.

He did, Rob.
I should have came preparedwith pictures.
I would love to do a show andtell of this era.

Jon Hayes (15:25):
Hey, you would have thrown me out there in like the
cattle pasture in Texas.
I would have fit right in.
You know, it was like that waswhat I had going on.
I sold tractors.
I sold yellow caterpillartractors and that was my life.
I was a mid-20s cat salesperson, thought that my career
trajectory was climbing thecorporate ladder.
I had my blackberry on my belt,buckle holster, I mean I was

(15:48):
ready and rocking, just gonnatake over the world.
And Erica asked me to step intophotography with her and do
some stuff and I found no, butI'll help you run the business,
cause she didn't want to run thebusiness side of things.
So I came alongside in theearly years and was like
deciding stuff for you, puttingtogether your mini sessions.
I remember specifically firstmini session season.

(16:10):
She's like this is a great idea, I run with it.
What do we do?
Like $25 mini sessions orsomething.

I think I did $25.

Jon Hayes (16:15):
And we were so pumped , we were like yes, you probably
got 50 pictures for the $25.
But it was then we moved.
We made a big life move.
We moved to the PacificNorthwest, changed up life.
I literally went up to theNorthwest, to Washington state,
with Erica's dad on a Friday.
We looked around Friday,Saturdays, came home Sunday,
listed our house on Monday, hadit sold in a week and we just

(16:37):
moved.
We were like let's just gosomewhere new.
Erica's first time inWashington was when the plane
touched down and I showed herthe awesome rental house I found
first.

Side note I don't ever recommend doing that.
When you've grown up as anArizona native and you are used
to sunshine every day of yourlife.
Don't pack up and move to thePacific Northwest.
Just don't do it.

Jon Hayes (16:58):
And I didn't have a job.
I had nothing, but we were likewe're going to make it work.
So I got a job for acaterpillar there and so on
tractors.
But it was such a miserableexperience for me.
I went from one of the best catdealers in the nation in
Arizona to an organization thatseemed like they're 10, 15 years
back in time.
My joke there all the time wasif they could have taken your
credit card on a carbon copymachine or you swiped the thing,

(17:20):
they would have gladly donethat.
They're probably kicking thecard reader going darn
technology.
And so I just really didn'tlike what was going on.
I would get in trouble forselling too many tractors.
It was just very I didn'tunderstand what was happening
and so I had this great, I'mlike Eric, I'm going to start a
business.
I'm going to quit my job.
She's like cool, what's theplan?
I'm like landscaping.

Speaker 1 (17:41):
She's like.

Jon Hayes (17:42):
I think, what if you grabbed a camera and we did this
photography thing together?
What's really cool?
That season of life?
We only lived there in theNorthwest for two years.
We ended up going into businesstogether with the photography
business.
I quit my job, we moved back toArizona.
We could be here for hourstelling you the whole story.
The cool thing is you couldvery easily, I think, look at
that story and say why the heckdid you move to Washington?

(18:03):
And I fully think the onlyreason we did something so crazy
and then moved back was becauseif we would have stayed in
Arizona I would have never been.
I was comfortable enough withmy job that I never felt the
pressure point to try and dosomething drastic and different.
But I was so miserable in thatseason that I was like enough's
enough.

(18:24):
I don't care if it's crazy.
Let me quit my job where, as a20-something-year-old, I'm
making a six-figure income, Iget a company truck, I've got a
company phone, my job's to takepeople to lunch and dinner or
else I get in trouble.
Sounds like a dream job.
I felt chained instead and wefinally were like we're going to
step away from that, we'regoing to risk it all, we're
going to go after this crazything.
And that was really thebeginning of the rest of our

(18:47):
lives.

That's when I handed him a camera and he said
where's the on button?

Jon Hayes (18:51):
I turned this thing on.

We just started from there.

Rob Greene (18:56):
It's amazing to me how, so many times, it's those
uncomfortable seasons of lifethat are necessary, for they're
like the catalyst for the changethat we most need to make.

Jon Hayes (19:10):
And it's like here's I tell people this all the time
is everybody wants a next levelsuccess In no matter what it is.
Maybe it's selling tractors forCaterpillar.
That's the dream, like it wasfor me, like next level success.
Maybe you want to own thecompany.
Here's what holds everybodyback from that.
In my opinion, every single usecase you can imagine is day one

(19:30):
.
And for the photographerslistening, like remember day one
you had your first client.
Maybe it was even someone youshot for free, but this was
brand new.
You're triple quadruplechecking your gear before you go
out the door.
You're showing up withbutterflies in your stomach.
You feel nervous.
Oh my gosh, I'm gonna puke.
What if I forget everything?
What if they see right throughme?
They're gonna know I'm animposter.

(19:50):
You're checking your AppleWatch for your posing
inspiration, like just to makesure.

That was my trick.

Jon Hayes (19:56):
That was a trick and it's like you do all that and
then you go home and you takethe photos and you're like, oh
my gosh, it feels terrible,right.
But then after a season youstart to grow in your comfort
and your confidence.
Then pretty soon before youknow it, you're head out the
door.
You're not even checking yourgear, you're showing up, you're
running through the poses, youknow what's going on, you know
what's gonna happen and you getsome moderate success and then

(20:18):
most people they grow to thislevel and they wanna go up here.
But what happens is they'recomfortable enough right here
that they're not willing to goback to the feeling of ew.
For this next level growth, Ihave to feel all of those things
all over again, like to risk itin a new way.
To grow to the next level, Ihave to go back to stomach feels
and butterflies.
I'm gonna puke.

(20:38):
Oh my gosh, that's what holdsmost people back.

Rob Greene (20:41):
And that's exactly what you guys wound up doing,
because you built a lot ofsuccess following the typical
path that a lot of us follow,with portraits and weddings and
all the cute photos for people.
And yet I mentioned this in theintro you guys did something
pretty shocking in thephotography world.
You just said we're going backto the butterflies, we're going

(21:01):
back to that discomfort, and youwalked away from that.
Why, what brought that on andwhat did you run to in the
process?

Jon Hayes (21:13):
I think for me, I think for both of us a lot of
the initial attraction to thatmodel, which is great, right.
A lot of people find success inthat model, find a lot of
fulfillment in that model.
That's fantastic.
The reason we followed that iswe saw that it was proven that
there was opportunity forsuccess, and we had a path that

(21:35):
we could follow to create thatsuccess for ourselves.
Right, so it was like a provenroadmap that we could just
follow, step by step, andhopefully see similar success,
and so, for us, it was like okay, have camera, want to make
money, this is the direction youhave to go, almost right.
What happened, though, is likeI was wearing bow ties and

(21:55):
chinos and like dress shoes,because I thought that's how I
had to dress.

Rob Greene (22:00):
So you at least did the pearl snapshirts.
Yeah, oh yeah, we did hardpivot.

Jon Hayes (22:04):
This was from cowboy John to I don't even know,
preppy John.
I guess I don't even know whatyou call it.

I was wearing like people's.
It was wedding photographerJohn.
It was just like we put on thishat, like we have to look like
wedding photographers, andbrides like pinks and they like
flowers.
You wore pink dresses and Ericadoesn't even like pink.
He's my least favorite color.

Jon Hayes (22:21):
We sat down with our graphic designer a friend of
ours, and we legit told him thisRob.
We said all right, why don'tyou take our initials E and J?
We want you to design this in away that it looks like it could
be monogrammed on a luxuryhotel bathrobe.

Rob Greene (22:36):
All right, that's what we want, also our brand
color inspiration.

Jon Hayes (22:41):
Take a look at this picture of a succulent.
I want you to pull all of thecolors out of the succulent, and
that's what we're going for.
And it was just like it wasn'treally authentic to us in a new
way because the way you'd findme is in like gym shorts and a
T-shirt, you know, and so itvery much felt like we were
doing what we felt like we hadto in order to find success, but
it didn't feel authentic to us.

Yeah, but like you said too, like, why did we find
ourselves making such a drasticchange?
It's because, for one, wedidn't feel us Like.
We were constantly living like,okay, we'll say this, we'll
post this, we'll do this becausethis will equal success, which?

Jon Hayes (23:17):
that's so gross.
You use the word swoon, I didand we were like.
After she did, we were likewhat does that even mean?
We need to look it up I waslike I don't know how to swoon.
I don't know how to swoon.

I don't know how to swoon over an image and I think
I'm supposed to, but, like forme, I just want to get an
awesome shot.
And so we had a lot of stuffhappening behind the scenes
where we were getting a lot ofattraction from brands and
businesses.
We just had no idea like why,but we kept taking it because we
needed to make money.

Jon Hayes (23:45):
We didn't even know what to call it.

No, we didn't, we were like business pictures I
honestly had a folder that itwas just like business names and
people, because I was like Idon't know, I don't know where
they fit.
This is not engagements, thisis not weddings.
But it just became more andmore of like inquiries that we
were getting and we hadn't evenreally been showing the work and
we were just like what if weshowed the work?
Because, John looked at thenumbers and it's like we were

(24:07):
making this much serving thosebusinesses and people.
But, like down here, weddingswere fading and I loved it
because I didn't want thewedding day feel, Especially
because it wasn't just like theinauthentic, inauthentic what am
I trying to say?
Oh, that's a hard word.

Jon Hayes (24:22):
It wasn't just the fact that we weren't being the
authentic version of ourselves.
It was also that we, unlike alot of others, we started our
business after we had kids, andso the whole reason we started
our own business is we wantedfreedom, we wanted flexibility,
we wanted time with our kids, wewanted to be more hands-on and
raising our kids.
I hated leaving every day to gosell tractors for somebody else

(24:45):
, and especially in that seasonwhen we lived in Washington, I'd
leave in the dark and come homein the dark and it was just
like ugh.
And so we would find ourselveseven after we moved back to
Arizona and really started thebusiness.
We would be gone almost allweeknights and weekends shooting
because we were crazy busy.

And we were crushing it.
I mean we had families four tofive nights a week.

Jon Hayes (25:07):
That's pretty great for a portrait, but we had like
a full-time almost nanny who wasdoing homework with our kids
and feeding our kids, and we'dcome home just in time for
bedtime.
And I'll never forget the firsttime we had to tell our son
Brody as what was he like?

six seven, six or seven.

Jon Hayes (25:22):
Like hey, bud, I know this is championship weekend
for your soccer, but mom and dadaren't gonna be able to make
the game.
And that was just that.
We you wanna talk about a sickfeeling in your stomach Hated
that, and we left that daydriving to the shoot, thankful
for the opportunity we had toserve, but just saying we are
never doing this again.

(25:42):
This cannot happen again.
We can't tell our kids, no, forthe sake of someone else,
that's not what we set out todesign.
And so what we found with thesebrands that we're inquiring
with us is well, wait a second.
They want us to come work on aTuesday from 10 to two.
That works.

Yeah, I like that.

Jon Hayes (26:01):
Nobody's asking us to come on a Saturday from like 2
pm to 11 at night, Like wow thisis pretty cool, and so I think
that factored a huge role in forus being able to go like oh my
gosh, we set out to create alifestyle of freedom and
flexibility.
This really allows us to have aton of that, because we're
working Monday through Fridayduring normal hours and we're

(26:23):
not having to sacrifice thethings that you know, we felt
were our, and we know are ourhighest priorities.

Rob Greene (26:29):
Now I'm curious because I feel like branding
photography is one of thesethings that starting to enter
into the conversation for peoplea little bit more now, largely
in part to people like y'allthat are leading the charge on
that, but it still feels alittle bit ambiguous.
Like, tell me, what is brandingphotography?

(26:51):
Is it just simply taking allthose senior photos and doing
them for people with whatevertheir craft is in their hands?
Is it going into a naturallight studio and just snapping
some pictures of people on acouch that they don't really own
?
Like what is it?
And then secondly, like how isit possibly even remotely as
lucrative as weddings, because Ithink that's a hard thing for a

(27:12):
lot of people to wrap theirmind around Weddings, like you
said, there's a proven roadmapto how that is so lucrative, but
you guys are finding a similarkind of success, and even
greater success in a lot of ways, with something that's totally
different.
So, yeah, what is it?
And how in the world is it thatlucrative?

Jon Hayes (27:31):
So, yeah, the word brand photography is kind of
like a recent, within the lasthandful of years term.
That's now a buzzword.
Right Before it was like youhave your wedding photographers,
your lifestyle photographersand commercial photographers,
and totally not a fairstereotype.
I get it, stereotypes usuallyaren't fair but when I thought
of commercial photography Iwould kind of think more like

(27:52):
Hollywood studio union typesetup, right when it was kind of
like I'm here, I have my camera, this is my tool, I touch
nothing else, I do nothing else,I'm taking photos and it's a
big deal, like it's just gonnago on a billboard or something
right.
And so I think with the adventof the internet and internet

(28:13):
advertising and onlinee-commerce, all of that stuff
took advertising from a placewhere it was like if you were a
company any company you wantedeyeballs, you had to do some
sort of print collateralcampaign, whether that was in a
magazine or newspaper orbillboards, and typically
there's a lot of dollars behindthat, so there is a cost barrier
for small businesses to be ableto take part of that.

(28:35):
So it was like large businessesare gonna gobble up that
advertising market.
Small players, we don't havethe funds for it.
Well, with online advertising,with e-commerce, with everyone
needing to represent what theydo, what they sell, the product
service, with visuals and withthe cost to actually publish
those visuals coming way, waydown.
I mean, the difference betweena billboard and Times Square or

(28:58):
spending a thousand bucks onsome ads online is ridiculous,
right?
And so now every mom and pop,corner store, lifestyle brand,
personal influencer, everythingneeds content to be on the
biggest marketplace there iswhich is online, and so that
really leveled the playing fieldand opened up a ton of
opportunity.
For now it's not just thesehigh level, huge commercial

(29:20):
opportunities, it's also the momlifestyle influencer next door
that needs content for her blogand for her social media.
And so that's where I think, ifyou're gonna separate the terms
, I think they're all in thesame world Commercials, just
maybe more refined, higher end,larger projects, branding's more
like hey, smaller budget,smaller level of production, but

(29:41):
still both have the same goalin mind.
And this is brand photographyin a nutshell, it's a brand
telling their unique story toattract their ideal client
period, and we do that throughimagery.

Rob Greene (29:54):
And so, whether it's a product, can you say that one
more time for the folkslistening, so they don't have to
like pause and rewind it?

Jon Hayes (29:59):
Absolutely, and I hope I say it the same way,
because I made it up it's abrand telling their unique story
, their unique message to theirideal client through imagery.
That's it, and so it's whetherit's a product, whether it's a
service.
I mean here's, here's the coolthing about brand photography is
it lets people know oh my gosh,there's this thing that solves
all my problems, or this thing Ireally want, or this thing I've

(30:21):
been looking for this bookcasebehind me that doubles as a
Murphy bed that I imagined in myhead one night existed, and
then I was like, oh my gosh, Ifound it online right.
So that's what brand photographydoes, and our job as brand
photographers is to tell abrand's story through imagery.
That is what our goal is to do.
So when you ask what type ofbrand photography do we do, we

(30:43):
say yes, like we do all of it.
We do high level commercialjobs, we do personal brand
influencers, we do products forlocal shops, we do professional
sports teams.
Photos are products that you'llsee in the IELTS grocery store
because, at the end of the day,it's all taking that brand's
unique story and just showcasingit through imagery.

So not quite taking your senior and then just
taking photos like that for apersonal brand, because the
senior that's like a once in alifetime thing, that's like the
highlight of their year.
But when you're working with abusiness, you gotta understand,
like, what's going on behind thebusiness and all the kinds of
things that you wanna capture inpictures so that their pictures
ultimately do the end goal thateverybody wants them to do,

(31:22):
which is to sell for them.
So, yes, you got some awesomecamera skills, but it just goes
to a next level when you'reworking with businesses and with
brands.

Jon Hayes (31:32):
Yeah, and in terms of the question of how lucrative
is it, it's insanely lucrative.
Here's the biggestdifferentiator we like to pull
out Is one of the reasonswedding photography, lifestyle
photography, senior photography,any of those things is
lucrative in and of itself isbecause it pulls on the
emotional heartstrings.
Right, this is the bride's bigwedding day.

(31:54):
Hey, father of the bride, youknow like come on, it's your
baby girl.
You raised her for however manyyears, this is her big day,
isn't she worth?

Speaker 1 (32:03):
the platinum package right.

Jon Hayes (32:04):
Like is your baby girl only worth just enough?

Speaker 1 (32:08):
You give her just enough back.

Jon Hayes (32:09):
So you get to pull on those emotional heartstrings
for the seniors right it's like,let's commemorate this special
occasion and all youraccomplishments in this season
of life and you're going outinto the world now.
Like, let's remember thesemoments, remember your friends,
remember this season.
Yeah, take my money, capturethis for me.
I want to be able to see andrelive and feel this.
All of that has very real value, right, the value is just

(32:31):
emotional value.
Like if I walked into astranger's house and saw their
wedding portrait on the wall, Iwould go like, oh, nice pic, but
it wouldn't be very valuable tome.
It would be valuable to thatfamily, that couple, their
family, because they were takingpart in that day, they love
them, they have an emotionalconnection.

Yeah, yeah, but it's different when you you know
, like I said, the end goal forthe branding images that you
create, those have an entirelydifferent meaning and it's not
emotional, and so that's whereit does come in to be so much
more lucrative, because you havea different selling point for
your images and different thingsthat all come with that
territory.

Jon Hayes (33:06):
Right.
So, for example, with brandimages, you're trying to help
increase brand awareness, whichincreases sales, which increases
revenue.
So now we're talking a totallydifferent way of thinking about
the transaction from client tophotographer.
And if your goal, if you'retelling me, like Rob, you come
to me and you're like man, Ireally wanna do this big photo

(33:27):
project.
And my goal with this is Iwanna launch this thing and make
like $500,000.
I'm like cool, if my photos arethe thing that enable you to
make that 500K, how valuable arethose photos Like?
Think about brands that takeimages and put them on a
billboard and how many eyeballsgo past that billboard all day
long.
That might go like, oh my gosh,I didn't know somebody existed

(33:49):
in my area that did this thing.
That picture is incrediblyvaluable and what we do in Brand
Thetare is we don't chargebased on necessarily just a
sitting fee or like a creativerate.
We also charge based on thevalue, the marketing value of
that photo and how many eyeballsit has the potential to get in
front of and, in turn, what kindof sales results that could

(34:12):
equal for the client.

Rob Greene (34:14):
I have a feeling there's some people listening to
y'all say this right now, andit's not just like light bulbs
going off, it's like fireworks,like what I can do what, and
it's worth how much.
It's how many people Like thisis probably just blowing some
minds right now.
So before we get into more justkind of the nuts and bolts of
all this, I just wanna have ahuman moment here because I know

(34:34):
y'all have gotten to work withsome pretty cool people, like I
think, the first one I everheard about when I heard about
you guys with the Chicago WhiteSox.
So I'm just dying to know humanmoment here.
Let's be real, of all thepeople you've worked with, what
were your biggest fanboy orfangirl moments that each of you
guys had along the way?
Then?

Jon Hayes (34:52):
you wanna take?

this one first, I mean I know, I have two
instantly that just come to mymind, which is one of the
Chicago White Sox.
Like, I grew up a baseball fanfor the Arizona Diamondbacks.
Either way, I was like abaseball team.
Like what are we talking?

Speaker 1 (35:05):
about here.
I still shoot weddings.
I don't understand this.

So getting to shoot for them, that was just like
stars in like my eyes.
I remember we were out there onthe field in Arizona during
spring training, taking all theflat lays of all the stuff that
was gonna be in their marketingor merchandise store and they
said, all right, guys, theplayers are done with practice,
they're coming out.
And I was like, okay, I don'tknow these people, this is okay,

(35:29):
I'm just gonna handle them likethey're people.
I'm a person, they're a person.

Speaker 1 (35:32):
But the lady our contact, she goes.

Oh my gosh, here comes Tim Anderson.
He's the all star and I'm likecool, I got this.

Jon Hayes (35:40):
Yeah, their marketing director was fan girling.

Speaker 1 (35:44):
Yeah, she was fan girling.

Jon Hayes (35:46):
She's like can't believe he's coming, we're like
I can't believe he's comingeither.

At the same time I was like I don't know who he is.
So, while it was like fan girlmoment, I was also able to
handle it because I'm like hedoesn't know me, like,
truthfully, I don't know him.
We introduced ourselves, hislittle girl came in for a couple
photos and that was just.
It was just so cool because weinstantly became White Sox fans.

Jon Hayes (36:10):
So then we watch, we watch religiously now, and it's
like every time we what avisible team to be a fan of too.

Oh yeah, they're not doing so hard right now but,
like every time they come onthe screen, we're like guys look
like Brody Paisley, you know toour kids.

Jon Hayes (36:22):
We're like we took pictures of him and I just think
that is for me, it's one of mybiggest highlights, along with I
don't know what you're gonnashare, but yeah, for me, we've
been long time photo partnersfor Chris Powell and for Heidi
Powell and I think you knowtheir claim to fame was extreme
weight loss on ABC and just thelives that they impacted through

(36:45):
that and I think you know thatinitially was just such a cool
thing to like.
I watch you on TV and now I'mtaking photos of you.

Yeah, like during college, I would watch extreme
weight loss and I'm like, oh mygosh, chris is now bringing his
wife on the show.
Like, look, john, like that'sapparently Chris's wife.

Jon Hayes (37:02):
But I just remember walking up and meeting them for
the first time and giving thedude a hug and I'm just like,
wow, there's a lot of muscleshere.

You can't wrap your arms around him, but you know
what I think.

Jon Hayes (37:14):
If there's one thing we found consistent across
everyone, we've been able towork with every brand, every
person of influence, celebrity,status, whatever.
It's just been everybody'shuman, everybody's human.
Nobody really wants to befreaked out over.
They just kind of want to berespected as the like just as

(37:35):
John, or as Rob or as Erica,like just I'm Tim.
Anderson was like, yeah, I'mTim.

Chris.

Jon Hayes (37:40):
Powell was like hey, what's up?
Guys, I'm Chris, can I get youa?

drink.
Yeah, he's like, can I get youanything to eat?
Like, do you need a drink?
I was like I probably do needto eat, but I am way too nervous
right now, like we're good,let's just get to shooting.

Jon Hayes (37:51):
So everybody's just human.
I think we make up in our headslike this idea that life has to
look so different, or they mustlike not have problems, or
whatever.
It's like everybody's justhuman.

Speaker 1 (38:01):
And.

Jon Hayes (38:02):
I think that's been the most freeing thing for us is
that we've had opportunities towork with people of influence
is just being like it eliminatesthe whole like nerve factor
because you're just like, yeah,that's just a person who woke up
and put their pants on the sameway I did today and it really
like doesn't take away from thewow, this is so cool, but it
does help eliminate like thenerves of that opportunity.

Well, and I just had something come to me I'm
like I'm gonna just share it incase someone's listening that
this could be helpful for.
But we had the opportunity toalso work with the late day
policy and that again was anopportunity where I was like I
don't understand what'shappening and you get in your
head so often of like I need todo bit better, I need to present

(38:44):
myself in a different way.
I need to do more as thephotographer to impress these
people or to, like, make it thegreatest and the best experience
.
But I remember when we had theopportunity to work with him, we
were just, we were blown awayand we were like, okay, we give
everybody a client gift.
Like let's, of course, give Davea client gift, and old Erica
would have been like, well,should we get more?

(39:05):
Should we add more to this gift?
Like, should we try to make itmore special?
Should we try to make it moreflashy?
Like we're talking about DaveHollis here, like this is crazy.
And we're like no, like we'reproud that we send out these
Yeti mugs and, yes, it has ourlogo on it and I'm sure we could
go get a gift card and add itand we could spice it up.

Rob Greene (39:24):
Does the logo have your initials monogrammed on it?

Jon Hayes (39:28):
No, not those initials, not the word initials.

I was trying to see if we had it anywhere.
No, not those initials, but itdoes have just an E and a J,
just real slim and a littlesmall, so it is branded to us.
But I just remember after hegot that, the next time we saw
him he said, hey, I gotta tellyou the tape on that box.
That's awesome.
I was like he was impressed bythe packaging we gave him the

(39:55):
gift in, like it was just alittle deep, like we have our
logo on tape you can get.
I don't know, ask us later.
We'll tell you where we get the.
I don't remember what businessit is.
But it's like we have our logoon the tape and it goes around
the box.
It's like that's what he pickedup on.
It was just like it's such asmall thing that he thought was
cool, that impressed him.
Like the gift inside was kindof like the bonus.

(40:16):
It just made me think like wow,we gave our best and like he's
impressed with, like that wasright on the box and that just
felt really cool, that like wedidn't and never have had to do
more to try and attract biggeror better.
It's just like being us anddoing what we do and doing it in
the best heart has.
Just you know, it has alwayscome through for us, no matter

(40:37):
who we were working for.

Jon Hayes (40:38):
And just one shout out that I wanna, just I'm gonna
speak this hopefully intoexistence is what Erica really
wants to say during thisquestion of who has she
fangirled over that we've shot.

Speaker 1 (40:50):
I don't know where she's going with this.

Jon Hayes (40:51):
We're just gonna speak into existence that one
day she's gonna get to say thatshe took photos for Thomas Rhett
yes, in his family, the countrysinger.
He actually has a place downhere where we live now and we're
just hoping our paths crossbecause, number one fangirl.
Actually sorry, thomas, it'smore of your wife that she
really likes.

She's just so love her.
She's just amazing.
We're hoping to add that one tothe four of us.
So hopefully next time we dothis, Rob, I'll be able to say
we did photos for Thomas Rhettin his family.

Rob Greene (41:19):
Amazing.
And if anybody's listening andknows Thomas and his wife and
wants to make the connection,shoot us an email, drop us a
line, let's make that, yes, Ilove it.

This will be amazing.

Rob Greene (41:31):
While we're having a little fun here, I know you
guys have gotten to do a lot oftraveling to different places
around the country for work.
Out of all the places you'vegotten to go, what's been some
of your top cities you've beento and like the must eat food
stops, Cause I'm a foodie so I'mdying to know what are some of
the must eat food stops in thesecities y'all like to go to.

Jon Hayes (41:50):
So first number one on the list is Hands Down
Chicago.
And listen, chicago's just anamazing city.
It's a beautiful place, it's sowalkable.
I also know I'm biased to this,because when we got to go to
Chicago for the first time, itwas to shoot for the socks.
This was also the first getawayErica and I had had in eight

(42:12):
years of marriage where we gotto go away somewhere, just the
two of us you might be love.
Chicago.

Speaker 1 (42:17):
So I'm slightly biased, I think it made it even
more magical cause.

Jon Hayes (42:20):
I was like, wow Chicago, wow my wife.

Like this is amazing.

Jon Hayes (42:24):
We have uninterrupted conversations.
I love this, but we went fullsend on the Chicago experience.
As two people who really didn'tgrow up in a like big city like
that, we were like let's go.
We ended up staying at a loftwith the physical trainer from
the socks and his family and wewere like we're not renting a
car, we're going to take the Leverywhere we go.

(42:46):
And I will never forget walkingthrough the underground subway
being like there's a subwaysandwich shop in the subway Like
oh my gosh, there's a subway,there's a-.

Rob Greene (42:57):
There's a subway, there's a Dunkin'.

Jon Hayes (42:59):
Donuts down here too.
What is this stuff?
And I'll tell you I can pictureit.
It's like I was in my ownsitcom you remember the show
Felicity Like that girl had thecrazy, like tons of tight curl
hair.
We walk up out of the subway, Ilook across this busy
intersection and there's ourhost, the wife of the trainer
for those socks.
She's holding Dunkin' Donutscoffee and her hair's just

(43:21):
blowing in the wind.
She's got hair like Felicityand like taxis are honking.
And I'm like I'm in my ownsitcom.

This is a man.
This is exactly what it lookslike in a TV show.

Jon Hayes (43:32):
But it was Chicago's just got a special place of our
heart for sure, Best place toeat there.
We love the London Houserooftop.

Speaker 1 (43:40):
It sounds super bougie and super fancy.

Jon Hayes (43:43):
It's actually really approachable, but it's rooftop,
beautiful view, overlookingwhatever.
That river is the big one andyou're up top.
It's just, it's gorgeous.
You get to overlook the wholecity and that's always on our
list of places to stop, yeahhands down Chicago, but also the
place we now call home.

Before we moved here to 38 here in Florida, it's
in the panhandle.
I'm still learning all aboutFlorida, so I feel like kind of
a nerd.
But before we moved here weactually traveled here for a
photo shoot for.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
Isagenix.

And we experienced some of the amazing places to
eat here.
So definitely 38 is one of ourtop spots and if you come, you
got to eat it the citizen andalso Le Creme.

Jon Hayes (44:28):
Le Creme is top us.
You know what I'm talking about, when it's like you order lots
of small plates and they justkeep bringing food throughout
the whole experience.

Yes, and they have the best chocolate fondue for
dessert at the end.
And it's just, it's so good.

Jon Hayes (44:42):
Like Erica had a thing for whoever's listening,
this might benefit.
I'm going to jump in here withone, two, If you're listening
and you've not had Topos beforedon't go in thinking, oh, this
is great because the plates areonly like nine bucks, because
you're going to order like ahundred nine dollar plates and
then you're going to get thebill and be like how did that
happen?
Cause every time you're justlike, oh yeah, bring another
Brussels sprouts.

(45:02):
Yeah, it's only nine bucks.
And then you get the bill andyou're like, whoa, I didn't know
that could add up to that.
So that's personal learningexperience of shocking off after
.

Or there's some takeaways, take away for your
business.
How can you add that strategy?

Speaker 1 (45:17):
into your business Genius.

Yeah, but definitely here.
And then another top spot SantaBarbara, Santa.
Barbara was one of our favoriteplaces to travel to you
actually mentioned James andJess at the beginning of this
time.

Jon Hayes (45:31):
Together we went to Santa Barbara and we worked with
them.
We also went another time withIsagenix and that was cool,
working on a sailboat in SantaBarbara, shooting Isagenix.

Speaker 1 (45:40):
Yeah, come on.
Yeah, that was pretty awesome.

There's a.

Jon Hayes (45:43):
Mexican place there, something de maize, floor de
maize.

Floor de maize.

Jon Hayes (45:50):
Amazing Mexican food right up near the water.

Rob Greene (45:53):
Yeah, you can sit outside next to the water Did it
leave you floored and amazed.

Oh, that is good, that's really good.

Jon Hayes (46:00):
I'll tell you this Erica, like I'm a total foodie,
erica's not so much.
She's kind of like where can Iget the most plain thing ever?

Not plain, just safe, like what I know I like.

Jon Hayes (46:10):
Also knows the most plain thing ever, and we both
loved the place.

Speaker 1 (46:14):
Like there was adventurous.

Jon Hayes (46:15):
Mexican seafood cuisine, and there was also
really safe options too.

Rob Greene (46:18):
So it was fantastic.
Floor de maize Noted Got it.

Floored and amazed.

Rob Greene (46:26):
Maybe if you're working on a branding project
for them, you can throw that outas a tagline, seriously Well.
So all right, let's dive backin now with some of this
branding stuff, becauseobviously you guys, that led to
some big transition for you guys, paying a picture for me now,
because this is how many yearsinto the transition away from
wedding photos, how long in arewe?

(46:46):
Oh, how long in.

Jon Hayes (46:48):
That was 2016?

2018, we transferred out.
What are we in 2023?

Rob Greene (46:55):
23?
, five years, five, six years,yeah, yeah, five or six years to
move from, so five or six yearsinto this.
Now, what's the difference inwhat life looks like?
What is the life of a brandingphotographer once this thing is
up and rolling?

Jon Hayes (47:07):
Yeah Well, I'll tell you one thing that we're proud
to talk about, because of ourown story and our own priorities
, was that when we were in ourfirst year of wedding and
lifestyle photography, we madeabout 60K, but we did that while
sacrificing 111 family mealtimes, weekends, soccer games

(47:32):
with our kids, stuff that wedidn't want to keep sacrificing.

And, yes, we truly added it up because we have to
know, like we just had to takein perspective what has changed,
because this has been the mostpivotal thing that we've done to
this point and, looking back,it's just opened our eyes in
such a huge way of wanting tohelp others see the possibility.

Jon Hayes (47:53):
Yeah.
So we went from 60K missing 111dinners, weekends in soccer
games, to running now a businessthat serves household brand
names, celebrity clients,professional sports teams.
We have a team that serves evenmore amazing clients and we've
got a multiple six figurephotography business, while not

(48:17):
sacrificing any of thoseweekends, family dinners or
sporting events ever.
This weekend we get to travelwith our son to his very first
travel baseball tournament andit's going to be so special.
It already is special because Iremember when he played soccer
he was recruited for club and sowas our daughter and we had to.

(48:37):
He went through the tryouts, hemade the team, we got the
information on what thecommitment looked like and we
had to say no Because we werelike I can't drive you an hour
across town for soccer practicethree nights a week, we're
shooting Like I can't do that.
And so now to be in a seasonwhere you talk about change,
what looks different when wepick up our cameras to work?

(48:58):
It's during the weekdays, it'sduring business hours in most
cases.
That allows us to be able tosay, yeah, but we're going to
get behind you, we're going tosupport you, we'll have you at
your Monday, thursday andSaturday practices and drive
across the state and do all thisstuff, because we've got that
on the weekends, we've got thefreedom and flexibility to do
that now.
So I think, in terms oflifestyle change, that's the

(49:19):
biggest one for us is we trulyhave freedom in our schedule,
which was something that wealways craved, and freedom
that's allowed us to do someother things that kind of, I
guess, run against the norm.
We pulled our kids out ofschool, we homeschool our kids,
we run our business and do allof these things and just kind of

(49:39):
run life on our own terms, andI think, without the white space
to be able to do that, none ofit would be possible.
Yeah.

Rob Greene (49:47):
Now I know this all sounds amazing, but I know it
didn't come without somestruggle along the way and
challenges.
What were some of thechallenges you guys faced in
making a transition like thisand what ultimately allowed you
to overcome those challenges?

Jon Hayes (50:04):
I think the first challenge was emotional.
Yeah Right, it was emotional.

I am known to be a crier, but I definitely like I
had a time where we left ourlast engagement session and I
left crying.
I was like I seriously I lovethis.
I love having a person in frontof my lens when I am down to
2.0, and I'm creating just likethe most dreamy kind of photos,
and I love creating that for acouple especially.

(50:29):
And so there was a point whereI was like I feel like I'm
breaking off something that wasa part of me from the beginning,
because I started this foreverago and I started in weddings
and I started second shooting.
And so there was a part of mewhere I was like also struggling
with not feeling like I failedat something because I was like

(50:49):
this also feels like I'm notcompleting this because I'm
stopping it and I'm turning awayfrom it.

Jon Hayes (50:54):
Yeah, I think the emotional aspect even backed up
before that last session towhere you mentioned earlier.
I was looking at the books andgoing we're advertising
ourselves 100% as luxury weddingphotographers, but when we look
at revenue, like 20% is comingfrom weddings and all the rest
is coming from brands whathappens if we start advertising
ourselves as brand photographersThen how much bigger does that

(51:16):
grow?
And so I was there very quickly.
I was looking at the numbersand reports and I'm like this is
what we need to do, erica.
I was like let's think on it,let's pray on it, let's sleep on
it, and I'll never forget.
I was sitting at the deskworking.
She was in the shower becauseall your best ideas come to you
in the shower.

You got to know.
It's true.
She yells across the house.

Jon Hayes (51:35):
John, I'm like oh my gosh, what's going on?
So I run in and she's like Ifigured it out, I know exactly
what we need to do.
I'm like, tell me she goes, weneed to go 100% into brand
photography.
And I was like, yes, I totallylet her know, this is her idea.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
So it took a while for her first to get emotionally
to the point where she was opento that and then, yeah, we had
that last session.

Jon Hayes (51:57):
But I think that was one of the other emotions, as
you just mentioned a second agowas recognizing that pivoting
your business does not equate tofailure.
Pivoting is not failure If youlook at companies that have
pivoted and we have to kind oflike make ourselves feel better.
But who remembers Facebook whenit was only for college

(52:18):
students?
You had to have a universityemail address and be verified as
a college student before youcould get on the platform.
Now it's like they're not evencalled Facebook.
It's Meta, right, and it's likehuge.

Speaker 1 (52:29):
It's this huge company.

Jon Hayes (52:30):
They pivoted, they wouldn't have grown to that
level love them or hate them.
They wouldn't have grown tothat level if they hadn't
pivoted their business model.
You look at plenty of othercompanies, apple I mean.

Rob Greene (52:41):
They've made tons of pivots Netflix so a pivot is
not failure.

Jon Hayes (52:46):
Failure is when you just give up and stop.
But pivoting is being a smartbusiness owner and going.
You know what?
I know I'm emotionally investedin this, but I can't be married
to this idea.
I can't romanticize this aslike something I can't.
I have to be willing to treatthis.
As you know, my business is kindof a living organism and grow
with it, kind of like weexperienced with our kids you

(53:07):
know, it's they go throughdifferent stages of life and you
can't if you try and hold ontothem in one stage, you're gonna
stump their growthDevelopmentally, you know, in
terms of just their socialskills or their abilities or
their confidence, whateveryou've got to let them grow and
just be along for that journey.
And I think there's an elementto that, as business owners too,
of like recognizing hey, thisthing, I need to be smart, I

(53:30):
need to respond to the ebb andflow of this and be okay with
making a pivot when I need to.

Rob Greene (53:36):
You know, erica, you talk about these emotions.
I imagine there's a lot ofpeople listening right now that
love the idea of making the jumplike y'all are talking about,
but they do.
They have these emotions, likefear and doubt, creeping in.
So what do you say to theperson who's really wrestling
with that question right now ofdo I even have what it takes to

(53:56):
do this?

I mean, yes, you absolutely.
That's.
My answer is yes, you have whatit takes because you have a
passion to do it.
And that passion doesn't justget like made up, like you can't
just like wake up and like justlike, oh, I'm putting this
false passion on myself.
It's like it's in you.
If you're feeling that way, ifyou have a desire for it, even

(54:20):
if you're inspired because yousee of something else that
someone's doing, that doesn'tmean it's not your own.
That means there's a piece ofit that's inside of you too and
it's there for a reason.
And I would argue, if that'syour passion, it's something
that you're being called to doand you have a purpose.
And so it goes so much morebehind, like what you're doing
with your camera or like whatyou're setting your business up

(54:41):
to look like it's you and whoyou are, and like what you're
taking the opportunity thatyou're given in your life and
the people you come into contactwith through the tool of your
business.
That's like enabling you to dowhat you're called to do.
And so it's like you have whatit takes.
It doesn't mean it's easy.

(55:02):
It doesn't mean it's gonna getdone for you.
It doesn't mean like you don'thave the work to put in, but you
have what it takes because youit's just who you are, and I
think that's the thing.
For me, it's like I am not awedding photographer.
Our best friends are weddingphotographers.
I look at what they do and I'mlike God bless you, like I can't
do that.
Like that's not for me, it'sjust not.

Jon Hayes (55:25):
But it is for them 100% for them All of them comes
to life when they get to do thatand that's awesome.

And I watch it happen and I'm like you guys are
incredible at this.
So it's like you have what ittakes in you for what you're
supposed to be doing and ifyou're feeling the pull like we
were, there are so many thingslike I wish we had all day to
sit and tell the stories thathave come of us switching our
business over to brandphotography.
And it's not just cool.

(55:51):
We have billboards hangingthroughout Arizona and it's not
that we have photos hanging inthe White Sox store in Chicago.
It's like the connections thatwe've had with people that have
led to either a bigger businessopportunities where we're like
holy cow, doris just keepopening.
There's so many opportunitiescoming in our way.
But also just personal lifethings where you know we're on

(56:12):
the phone with some of ourclients, not talking about photo
shoots.
We're talking about real lifethings.
We're talking about, like youknow, things that we're working
through, things that they needsupport on that have nothing to
do with business and I justfully believe that you have what
it takes because there'sopportunities that aren't just
for your business, that arewaiting for you.
Into the practical side ofthings.

(56:34):
It's just telling yourselfevery day I am not an imposter,
I am me.
I have this passion.
This is the way things areflowing for me.
I'm gonna pursue it and I'mgonna do it with everything in
me and not looking to the sideto see what everyone else is
doing, cause that's the hardestpart and it gets you doubting
yourself.

(56:54):
It's you know, it just can getyou into a trap.
But just staying focused on thepassion and like what you feel
called to be doing in yourbusiness.

Jon Hayes (57:03):
Yeah, you mentioned at the beginning of this, rob
you I don't remember exactly howyou phrased it but being
authentic, like your identity,knowing where your identity is,
who you are right, and I thinkthat's the thing is so often
when we talk about impostersyndrome, when we talk about
fear, when we talk about all ofthose things, what we're really

(57:23):
talking about is getting reallyconfused by all the names or
labels or ideas about who weshould be the world.
You know others think we needto be opinions that others have,
maybe it's from, maybe it'sfrom people really close to us
too, right, and all of thoseconstantly in friction and in in

(57:45):
contrast with what we reallyfeel we need to be doing or who
we need to be on the inside.
And I think that when you getreally really clear on who you
need to be to accomplish thosebig goals one of our mentors
says it like this, that's, yousaid this at the beginning you
gotta figure out how do you saysomething about being and doing.

Rob Greene (58:05):
It's always a good idea to decide who you want to
be before you decide what you'regoing to do, so here's.

Jon Hayes (58:10):
Here's if I can go mindset with you for like two
seconds our mentor, Brad.
He says it this way there'sthree ways of doing things.
The first one is to believethat you have to do things in
order to have the things youwant to have the goal, so that
you can be the person you wantto be.
And if you fall into that trap,then you're perpetually doing,

(58:32):
creating and starting new thingsover and over again and never
getting there right.
The second way of thinking is Ineed to have these things so
that I can do these things andbe the person I want to be,
which gets you caught in a trapof maybe sometimes victim
mentality like I don't have theresources, I don't have the time
, I don't have the bandwidth, Idon't have the smarts, I don't
have access to information.

(58:52):
Whatever it is, the way thingshave to work in order to find
success is you have to, like yousaid, be the person you want to
be.
And if you are operating andlike looking forward into the
future, who do I want to be?
What does that picture ofsuccess look like?
If it's in brand photography,what do I look like as a
successful brand photographer?

(59:12):
What does life look like?
What do my clients look like?
What kind of projects am Iworking on?
What's my schedule look like?
Start being that person today,because when you do, you'll
start to do the things that thatperson would do and, as a
result, you'll have the thingsthat you want to have.
Right, be, do, have, and so Ithink that's the thing is like

(59:35):
making a decision, and Eric andI actually watched through an
exercise of this recently wherewe were like what are all the
lies, the fake names that wewould believe about ourselves,
and let's, let's say those outloud and let's throw them away,
and then let's instead speak thetruth about who we are to
ourselves and to each other, andI think you know if you're
struggling with impostersyndrome or fear of starting

(59:57):
something new, or tellingyourself all these ideas those
are all lies.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
They're all made up.

Jon Hayes (01:00:01):
The likelihood of your greatest point of fear and
your greatest moment ofhappiness coming true are equal.
So which one do you set yourmind to?
That's a personal choice.

Speaker 1 (01:00:10):
Do you?

Jon Hayes (01:00:11):
give into the fear and run with all the thoughts
and all the fears and all thelabels of all the reasons why
you can't or do you choose tostep into, like the authentic
truth of hey, this is who I am,this is who I'm created to be,
these are the skills that I have.
I'm gonna go make it happen,because it's in equal likelihood
that that'll come true.

Rob Greene (01:00:29):
I love it.
Well, and I love that for youguys.
This really all started, asyou've said, with a decision
that we're going to be parentswho are present on the weekends
and the evenings with our kids,and this wasn't, you know.
Hey, we're gonna make the mostmoney we can possibly make.
We're gonna have the nicestthings we can possibly have.
This was we want to be the bestparents we can be to our kids

(01:00:50):
and we want to be present onweekends, present at ball games,
present for all those momentsthat are so limited that we have
with our kids, and everythingthat has been a part of this
pivot for y'all has really flownout of that decision, which is
incredible.
So, man, thank you so much forsharing your story.
You guys have been soincredible about painting this

(01:01:11):
picture of what could be for us.
Help us as we're wrappingthings up here.
Help us get really practicalfor a minute.
If someone wants to explorewhat it looks like to get into
branding, photography, what aremaybe like three things that
they can start doing today tostart moving in that direction?

Jon Hayes (01:01:29):
Yeah, I think first would be understand if you're
wanting to work in brandphotography, beginning to get an
idea and an understanding ofwhat area of brand photography
do you wanna work within?
There's so much opportunity andyou can.
We live in a day and age whereyou can specialize in anything
and be known for that one thing.
Gary Vaynerchuk actually talkedabout this, I think, at WPPI,

(01:01:49):
like years and years ago, and Ilistened to it on a podcast a
couple of years ago.
He was like, wow, this isoutdated but it's so true.
He was like we live in an erawhere you're not just a
photographer.
You could choose to be a dogphotographer and not just a dog
photographer, but you couldchoose to be like a Pomeranian
dog photographer and not just aPomeranian dog photographer.
You can choose to be a luxuryPomeranian dog photographer and

(01:02:12):
if you narrow into that niche,you can get flown to all these
people's private yachts to takepictures of their luxury
Pomeranian dressed up in asailor suit on the bow of their
yacht and get paid Bukku bucksfor it.
And it's like that's so true.
And what's cool within thebrand industry is you can get
super, super niche like that ifyou want to and like only work
with fitness brands or only workwith product or only work with

(01:02:34):
personal brands and lifestyleinfluencers.
You can get super niche or youcan go really broad, like we do,
and just say, hey, if there's abrand with a story to tell,
that's what fires us up.
We like the challenge oftelling every brand's unique
story, but I think gettingfamiliar like the best thing
someone could do as a step one.
Start looking around and beingaware of all of the imagery

(01:02:55):
around you all the time andrecognize someone's creating
that.
So whether it's a billboard, amagazine spread, something in
the newspaper, a mailingadvertisement, something you see
on TV, those images someonecreated.
So which ones draw you in whenyou're looking at them?
Which ones make you go like,ooh, that would be a lot of fun.
Oh, I think that would be greatto shoot and start exploring

(01:03:19):
cause when you're.
It's an old saying, but it'strue, right, if you do what you
love, you never work a day inyour life or whatever.
Like.
There are projects we've shotwhere I'm like I am showing up
to work today and I've got towork.
There are other projects thatI'm like, oh, you're paying me
too.
Like, wow, I can't believe I'mgetting paid to do this.

(01:03:39):
Like I would do this for free,right?
What are the ones that wouldmake you feel that way?
Start trying to identify whatthat is, because there's so much
opportunity and I think for alot of people, finding what
niche they like within thiswould be really helpful.

Erica Hayes (01:03:53):
And I think step two would really just follow,
that which is, show yourportfolio and I know someone's
right now thinking I don't haveone.
Great, this is where you'regoing to make one and you're
going to be the brandphotographer and you're going to
do the thing.
So you have the portfolio.
So how you do that thing iseither, like John said, figure
out what you want your target tobe.
So maybe it's personal brandsand you, you know, you look to

(01:04:15):
the personal brands that youwant to work for.
For me one day also, I knowI've got really lofty goals.
So the Thomas Rhett family, butalso.

Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
Joanna and they're a chip in Joanna games Like if.

I could shoot, just I would take her cookbook.
I would take like anything.
I would love to do it.
I'm not going to attract hermark.

Jon Hayes (01:04:34):
Hold on pause.
Literally cross country drive.
Moving truck pulling trailers,pickup truck pulling trailers
our move from Arizona to Florida.
She thought it was a good ideato make a detour to Waco with
all of our stuff in tow to gosee joining games.
Just like pause and insert thatI'm not crazy.

I'm not crazy.
I know that the chances couldbe.

Jon Hayes (01:04:56):
I'm passion is real.

It's real, I could just connect with the right
person.
Spoiler alert he didn't let usstop Anyways you have.
What was that even saying, oh,I'm not going to attract Joanna
games like marketing person If Idon't show work that shows I
could handle that.
So maybe I'm not immediatelygoing to Joanna games, but I
might be shooting a cookbook.

(01:05:18):
You know, maybe I'll take acookbook and do something with
it in my kitchen, or you know,whatever the case may, be.

Jon Hayes (01:05:24):
Make your family a pie and photograph the process.
Put it on your website.

Yeah, it's just start building that portfolio.
For what?
And if you don't know the nicheright away, just start
somewhere.
Just start If it's literally,grab the hand soap off of your
counter and get creative, figureout how can you shoot the heck
out of that hand soap to showsome product photos.

Yeah, and we can make hand soap look good for
somebody.
You can probably make a lot ofthings look good.
We've had to photograph.

Jon Hayes (01:05:52):
Yeah, we've had to photograph hand soap, so it was
between our experiences, so thatsounds like you can do it.

If we can shoot a bottle of soft scrub, you can
shoot a bottle of hand soap.

Jon Hayes (01:06:02):
The whole thing that inspired us to that idea,
because that's what we did inthe beginning too.
We actually our web designer.
She was designing for all thesesmaller brands and was like I
really want to break out of thiskind of spot I'm stuck in.
And she's like who do I want toshoot for or who do I want to
design for?
I want to design foranthropology.
And so she's like all right,I'm going to create.
So apparently, designers havethis own social media platform

(01:06:23):
called Dribble, with multipleB's like dribble, dribble,
dribble, dribble.
Anyway, I don't know, I justknow it exists.
She designed this whole productsuite, this whole brand
identity, all of these packaging, labels and all this stuff for
a line that she thought wouldlike hey, maybe this would be
something you'd see inanthropology.
It didn't exist, the businessdidn't exist.

(01:06:44):
She did it for fun, she did itas a portfolio builder.

Speaker 1 (01:06:47):
Guess what happened.

Jon Hayes (01:06:49):
The marketing person for anthropology saw her work on
Dribble and reached out and waslike oh my gosh, this is
amazing.
We would love you to work withus.
She designs for them now.
So this isn't just waste yourtime kind of ideology.
It's literally a brand wants tosee right away.
Oh, I need someone who can.
Maybe it's Hanso, I needsomeone who can photograph, or

(01:07:10):
Hanso?
Wow, there's pictures ofproducts like that.
Wow, these are really goodphotos.
I'm going to call them.

Speaker 1 (01:07:15):
That's how it works.

Jon Hayes (01:07:16):
And so it's a very practical but very effective
step.

I have seen over and over again in my life that
faithfulness in small thingsleads to opportunity in larger
things, and that's just what youguys are describing right there
.
That's it to a T.
There's no glory in theselittle side projects that you're
just doing and testing out inthe Hanso.
There's no glory in that.
There's no accolades that comefrom that.

(01:07:41):
But your faithfulness inpracticing those skills over and
over again leads to thoseopportunities that come down the
road.
I love that you've talked aboutidentifying the style of photos
that you really grab yourattention, identifying the kind
of clients you wanna work withand shooting some stuff that
would appeal to that type ofclient.

(01:08:03):
I would throw in there too,identifying who you wanna learn
from to do this, because, likeyou said, there's a roadmap for
things like wedding photography.
Surely there's gotta be one forbranding photography too.
And you guys looked around anddidn't see one and you started
to go hey, what if we helpedpeople find that roadmap?

(01:08:23):
Tell me about what y'all havecoming up.
Y'all got some cool things onthe horizon here.

Speaker 1 (01:08:28):
Oh man, do we ever?
That's exactly right is.

Jon Hayes (01:08:31):
we looked around and realized, hey, this was a really
hard journey for us.
To make this pivot, we learneda lot of lessons the really
really hard way, both I meanthings that cost us not just
mental energy, not justemotional energy, but financial
energy.
I guess, if we're gonna call itall energy, like a lot of missed

(01:08:52):
dollar opportunities and a lotof expenses that we incurred
that were like whoops didn'tneed to do that.
And so when we started to lookback on our journey, after we
kind of ironed out a lot of thewrinkles and the bumps in this
process and formulated a processfor how to work with brands on
this level, we realized, oh mygosh, what we just lived through

(01:09:12):
we can help others with byskipping that whole learning
curve and getting straight to asystem that works.
And so we've actually got abrand new class coming up on
September 12th, Tuesday,September 12th, at 11 am Eastern
time, and we're unpacking thethree secrets to finally break
into brand photography and haveyour first six figure year.

(01:09:32):
We're gonna unpack our blueprintfor exactly how we work with
brands, how we find success,understanding their unique brand
story and telling that storythrough imagery, and so we're
super excited to make thatblueprint available to everyone
listening.

And this isn't just for brands of big, scary names,
like for those who could be,you know, scared to like think
of a professional baseball teamright off the bat.
It's not that.
It's every kind of brand smallmom and pop shops, personal
brands, household brand names.
It scales to all of them and itreally is.
It's the three secrets that wejust narrowed it down to.
If we would have done this,this and this, wow, we would

(01:10:08):
have skipped so many of thesethings.
And it ultimately is the thingthat just ignites us to help
others skip past, like, all ofthe hard learning things we had
to go through, because there isso much success to be found in
brand photography and we love tobe able to help people bypass
all the hard learning curvesthat we had to go through and

(01:10:29):
just see, like, how successfulit is and ultimately, from that
success, your business changes.
But our favorite part is thelife change and just all of the
personal, family aspects thathave benefited in such a huge
way from it.

And so this is a free live class coming up here
on September 12th amazing,absolutely free absolutely free
with, by the way, just forshowing up to class.

Jon Hayes (01:10:53):
We're giving away a free resource for those who join
us too.
So, yeah, if you come in andshow up live, we're giving away
a free resource for people justattending, spending their time
with us, hopefully learning andmaking a positive impact on them
in the process, and leavingwith a tool to help them start
making some of those pivots andsteps, if they'd like to, in
their business.

So if you're listening to this in real time,
jump on in there.
We'll put the link in the shownotes.
But if you're listening in thecar or something, just know it's
bopsquare8studiocom slash Ericaand John.
Again, that'sbopsquare8studiocom slash Erica
and John.
It'll have a link to jump inthis free live class with these
guys and continue learning fromthem.

(01:11:32):
John and Erica.
Thanks so much for coming on.
If people wanna follow alongwith your story, where's the
easiest place to stay in touchand follow along?

Jon Hayes (01:11:39):
Best place is gonna be on the gram.

Yep Instagram.

Jon Hayes (01:11:42):
On the gram.

We are at, yeah, at , erica and John.
No H in this guy's name is alsoup there in that corner, don't?

Speaker 1 (01:11:48):
know how to point to it.

But, yeah, that's where we show up the most, just
because it's a one easy spot forus to share valuable advice,
but also just more about us andthis journey that we're on and
helping others.

Jon Hayes (01:12:02):
Occasional house projects.

Occasional house projects.

yes, we're showing one of those right now, and
Erica is quite the humorous realcreator as well.
She's usually good for one ofthose on a pretty regular basis.
So if you wanna laugh, followalong with their reels as well.

Oh well, thank you.
That's me putting my.
I've always wanted to be KellyKapowski from Save by the.

Speaker 1 (01:12:24):
Bell.

So when I feel like I need to act, I go to reels.

I love it and you've got a Kelly Kapowski vibe.
That's totally it.
Y'all is a Zach and Kelly ofthe photography space.

She's mine, so there we go.

Well, erica and John , thank you so much for coming
on and hanging out with us today.
Cannot wait to jump in andcheck out this live class with
you guys, and can't wait to seeyou.
We're gonna be hanging out nextmonth down in your neck of the
woods.
So I look forward to seeing youguys in person and hopefully
we'll have a better experiencewith our waiters the next time

(01:13:00):
around.
The last time we hung out,every waiter in every restaurant
took forever.

So hopefully we have a little better lockdown in
your neck of the woods.
I think we will, and we can'twait for that.
Rob, thank you so much forhaving us today, and we can't
wait to hang out in person heresuper soon.

Oh my gosh y'all.
Are they not just the best?
The chemistry between those twoman the husband and wife teams
we've had on the show are justphenomenal.
I love those two so much andtheir kids are amazing.
I'm so stoked to get to hangout with them down in Florida
here in a few weeks.
Maybe I'll share a little ofthat on a future episode of the
Bop, but thank you so much fortuning in to this first episode

(01:13:38):
of season two.
We just have so many incredibleguests lined up for season two
that are gonna bless your socksoff.
They're gonna bring so manyunique perspectives from
different elements of theindustry, different parts of the
country, the world.
It's going to be incredible Ifwe're not hanging out.
By the way, on Instagramtogether already, be sure to
give us a follow at square eightstudio.

(01:13:59):
Would love to connect with youon there and get to know you and
your story.
Until next time, though,friends, keep learning, keep
loving and keep chasing thosedreams you were made for Habас

(01:14:29):
gratis.

All Episodes

Pivoting to Passion: The Journey into Brand Photography | Erica and Jon

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Crime Junkie

24/7 News: The Latest

Stuff You Should Know

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Pivoting to Passion: The Journey into Brand Photography | Erica and Jon