June 3, 2025 • 34 mins
The modern mental health conversation has taken a concerning turn, according to clinical therapist Jonelle Massey. Rather than building resilience, we've defined wellbeing as the absence of discomfort and the avoidance of challenges—a definition that ultimately leaves us ill-equipped for life's inevitable difficulties. Drawing from her experiences as a former D1 athlete and her work with leaders across various fields, Massey presents a compelling alternative: embrace adversity as the training ground for emotional strength.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Broer (00:06):
Well, welcome to all of our friends out there in The
Bossh ole Transformation Nationto another installment of the
Bossh ole Chronicles.
This is your co-host, whichmeans guess what?
Guess who else is here, Sara.
Sara Best, and she's going totell us who our guest is today.
Sara Best (00:20):
Hey, John, nice to see you today on The Bossh ole
Chronicles.
Today our guest is a nationallycertified clinical therapist.
She is a former D1 athlete andshe's married to a D1 coach.
She's like surrounded byathletes her children and she
works with athletes and leaders.
Her name is Jonelle Massey andshe's also written a really
(00:41):
powerful book called "TheMiseducation of Empathy.
But our subject matter todaymight just blow people's minds.
We entered into thisconversation we want to talk
about mental health, but Jonellehas kind of a state of things
today around kids and leaders inmental health that I think we
all should probably tune intoand be aware of, along with some
(01:04):
deeper understanding of whywe've arrived at this place and
what we can do about it.
John Broer (01:08):
That sounds like an amazing topic.
Let's jump in.
Sara Best (01:11):
Let's do it.
John Broer (01:16):
The Bossh ole Chronicles are brought to you by
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organizations diagnose theirmost critical people and
execution issues withworld-class analytics.
Make sure to check out all theresources in the show notes and
be sure to follow us and shareyour feedback.
Enjoy today's episode.
Sara Best (01:39):
Jonelle Massey.
Welcome to The Bossh oleChronicles.
Jonelle Massey (01:42):
Thank you for having me.
Sara Best (01:44):
Yeah, it's really good to have you, especially
with focus right now on mentalhealth, and let's just agree
that it's not a new focus, it'sjust something that we are maybe
talking about more frequentlyon the podcast here.
Our listeners hopefully will betuned into and already maybe
even responding to signs andsymptoms and challenges they
(02:05):
might be experiencing withmental health, especially
leaders.
But, Jonelle, we reached out toyou as an expert, a nationally
certified clinical therapist andsomeone who has a great deal of
experience working with leaders, athletes, organizations of all
types and sizes, to help ourlisteners debunk any myth they
(02:29):
might have about what do we meanby mental health.
Jonelle Massey (02:33):
Well, that's a good question.
I'm glad you asked me that mycolleagues and I are in an up
war, so to speak, because welove the fact that there's a lot
of awareness around mentalhealth, and that's kind of the
thing that we've been trying todo for decades is bring
awareness and also look at thestigma of mental health.
(02:58):
And so, with those two things,we're glad that there is
awareness and mental health isbeing talked about.
We're also worried about howit's being communicated and
who's driving the wheel of theconversation, and we're noticing
that we are defining mentalhealth nowadays as the absence
(03:22):
of uncomfortable feelings andthe avoidance of adversity, and
so, unfortunately, I don't thinkwe're going to be in a space of
building capacity andresiliency if we're just trying
to get rid of the things thatwould help build those things,
which happens to be adversitiesand, a lot of times,
(03:46):
uncomfortable feelings andemotions.
Sara Best (03:49):
I had never heard that before.
The avoidance of uncomfortablefeelings, and what was the
second part?
Jonelle Massey (03:56):
And just the absence of adversity, the
absence of adversities.
Sara Best (04:00):
Yeah, Wow.
And you know, in my mind, justpreparing for our conversation
this morning, I was kind ofgoing in a totally different
direction, even reflecting on myown experience of the last
number of years, most recentlyfeeling overwhelmed, uncertain,
in many cases ill-equipped, andthen totally thinking
(04:21):
something's wrong with me.
And I wonder if other peoplethink that?
And then, if they do, how dothey make sense of what you just
said?
Jonelle Massey (04:29):
Yeah, well, in a lot of Instagram posts and a
lot of influencers and folks whoare very interested in the
topic of mental health, istelling folks to run away from
anything that causes you to feelall the things you just
mentioned overwhelmed, uncertain, all of those things.
Ill-equipped, yeah, yeah.
(04:51):
Rather than leaning in andstretching and trying to find
ways to navigate those veryappropriate, normal human
emotions and that's theconversation we're not having
about mental health is that weare to look at these as
opportunities to stretch andbuild capacity.
John Broer (05:15):
Can I ask a really quick question, Jonelle?
Because the avoidance when Ihear about avoidance behavior,
part of that is those are one ofthe two pitfalls of an unsafe
environment or a lack ofpsychological safety, and I know
you talk about that in yourwork or you've addressed that.
So in other words, peopleeither they're being instructed
(05:38):
to avoid that and or they're notequipped to do that, and so
it's sort of a double-edgedsword.
By avoiding it you're notbuilding that muscle and it
doesn't improve the situation.
Jonelle Massey (05:53):
I just think that this discovery of you know
where are we going was a littlebit easier because, as you
mentioned, I work with athletes,and so athletes are always
around adversity.
You know, in order to win,they've got to get through a
barrier, someone who's trying tostop them from succeeding, and
(06:14):
so that's the space that I'vealways been in in helping
athletes figure out how tonavigate their emotions.
Athletes figure out how tonavigate their emotions, and
what I love to talk about isemotional agility combined with
empathy, and figuring out thoseways to kind of stay in neutral
(06:35):
in order to get that prefrontalcortex thinking and what's a way
to solve the problem in thewind.
And I don't think it should beany different for leaders, or
any different for any type ofindustry or for us who don't
dribble a ball or skate on ice.
Sara Best (06:52):
I love that and agree wholeheartedly.
Our listeners already know youwere a very successful D1
athlete.
You played basketball incollege.
Your own lived experiencethrough performance and meeting
high expectations and highdemand would attest to your
approach here.
If people are getting themessage to run away from the
(07:16):
uncomfortable feelings and theadversities, where are they
being instructed to go?
Like, what are they supposed todo?
Jonelle Massey (07:22):
For example, mindfulness and those kinds of
strategies.
I think even then those arekind of twisted in a way to
where avoidance is in the front.
So let's remove ourselves fromtoxic environments first and
then go and be one withourselves and be able to calm my
nervous system down, ratherthan doing those things in the
(07:44):
midst of adversity.
And so even with strategiesthat we're hearing about,
they're not being explained todo that in the midst of chaos,
or even not even chaos, but justminor stressors.
And that's really the concernis that we're going to look up a
(08:06):
decade from now and people arenot going to learn how, they're
not going to know how to dealwith conflict.
We're going to be in thesesilos, living life, just scared
to go out and do anything thatmight include some
uncomfortability or some type ofadversity.
John Broer (08:27):
So I'm going to ask a slightly different question.
I mean, Sara was talking aboutwhat are they doing or where are
they going, but what is theorigin of this?
And first of all, is itsomething relatively unique and
new.
Although I can't believe in theworld of human behavior and
those variables that it'snecessarily new.
But what's the origin?
(08:48):
And the other part too is isthere anything that is somewhat
generational about this?
Because there are fivegenerations in the workplace
right now, and of course, wealways talk about helping
managers avoid the B oss holeZone and we'll get to that in a
second.
But origins, and are we seeingit in a particular group of
people?
Jonelle Massey (09:07):
I think that, as far as origin, I think when we,
you know, we want to mentionCOVID all the time, but I think
there is some validity to usbeing in a space where, all of a
sudden, things were out of ourcontrol, and so now we've gone
from one extreme to make surethat everything is in our
control, and so we're going tocontrol our environment so that
(09:31):
we are not faced with surprisesor unpredictability or adversity
or challenges.
I think that's one source oforigin.
When you touched on generations, again it's going from one
extreme to the other.
So when I think about my parents, who are in their late 70s and
very different parenting style,where it was like children are
(09:57):
to be seen and not heard, youknow you only speak when you're
spoken to.
What goes on in this housestays in this house.
I can go on and on and on.
And we knew that some of thatwasn't psychologically safe but
also just wasn't a space forcuriosity and growth and for
(10:17):
self-agency.
And so we go from one extremeto the other yeah, extreme to
the other.
So where, you know, we havegentle parenting, but we also
have, for parents, protectingour kids from any type of
uncomfortable emotion oradversity.
John Broer (10:32):
Right.
Jonelle Massey (10:33):
And so when you talk about, this is something
that's happening generation andI might have to take blame for
that with my generation.
Sara Best (10:41):
Me too.
Jonelle Massey (10:49):
But I do think that it's going to continue,
because my children, who are 17or 13, love life because I have
done some of that, and sothey're probably going to repeat
the behavior for their child.
They're going to say, oh, I hada great childhood, didn't
really have a whole lot of thisor that, and so I can see it
continually.
Sara Best (11:02):
Is that what we call snowplow parents, where they
just plow all the tough stuffout of the way and smooth the
road and the path for their kids?
Jonelle Massey (11:11):
I've never heard of that term, but this sounds
about right to me.
Sara Best (11:14):
I learned about it after I heard the term
helicopter parents, like Ithought that was the new thing,
but it makes a lot of sense, lotof sense.
And if we think about John,your question about
generationally, how leaders are,you know kind of dealing with
multiple generations, theirleadership style, if it's born
(11:34):
from the command and control,and you know, I'll give you
something to cry about.
Like you know, quit yourbellyache and get the job done.
John Broer (11:40):
Leave your personal life at the door.
Sara Best (11:42):
Yeah, and you have people coming in who have been
conditioned to wow.
Jonelle Massey (11:48):
To express everything.
Sara Best (11:49):
Yes.
Jonelle Massey (11:50):
All the time.
Sara Best (11:51):
Yes.
John Broer (11:52):
Yeah, go ahead.
Sorry, sorry Go.
Sara Best (11:53):
Well, I have a question.
So, based on how you describedwhat kids and people are and
athletes are being trained to do, it seems like the missing
piece.
Then, if we have unhappiness ora disconnect, then we go find
oneness with ourselves and weuse mindfulness and I'm not
(12:14):
knocking mindfulness at all, butit seems like the missing piece
in there would be the actualconnecting to and feeling the
feelings all the way through,absolutely.
Jonelle Massey (12:26):
And that's great mental health.
Sara Best (12:28):
Okay, that's good mental health.
Understanding where thefeelings are in your body.
Recently I was listening to adifferent podcast and they
talked about how it's not theemotion that's the trauma.
It's not even necessarily theexperience that a person has
that creates the trauma.
It's that we don't deal withthe emotion and it gets trapped,
(12:48):
maybe physically, in our body.
That creates trauma.
Jonelle Massey (12:52):
And also I think we haven't had an opportunity
to build confidence and so ifwe're not acknowledging the
emotion that we're having andthen be able to work through it,
we can't later say been there,done that.
And although this situationlooks a little different, it's
very similar and I have thecapacity, I have the skill set
(13:12):
and I have the confidence to beable to face that head on.
Sara Best (13:17):
I'm worried.
I think that's what you saidwe're concerned, I'm concerned
too always improving.
John Broer (13:45):
You want one generation to.
I don't want to say coddle orprotect, but we're hoping that
we are equipping our children tobe prepared for the world and
just do better than we did.
On the other hand, though, toignore the adversity of the
world, because there's a lot ofreally dark parts of the world.
That's what's what you'retalking about is that, if we are
shielding from the reality that, listen, we want you to be good
, you know citizens andhonorable people and whatever
(14:09):
that may look like, you knowraising children, the reality is
you are going to hit somethings in your life that are
going to set you back on yourheels and be hard and painful.
So somewhere in there wherethat message is getting lost, or
we're just shielding peoplefrom that.
Jonelle Massey (14:26):
Yeah, also, we as parents are also aware of our
kids' emotions and care aboutour kids' emotions, and for some
reason that has translated tothat we are responsible for our
kids' emotions.
John Broer (14:42):
Okay.
Jonelle Massey (14:43):
And so if my child is sad, I must have not
done enough or I caused it tohappen.
And so you know, I've got tofigure out how to make myself
feel better and not feelresponsible, guilty about what
I've done.
Sara Best (15:04):
Yeah, oh, that's a big one.
What about, I mean, is thatalso happening in the workplace?
One could theorize thatBossholes don't necessarily have
that insight, awareness orinterest potentially in you know
, understanding or respectingother people's emotions.
But do you see a similar thingwhen you know, when you work
(15:27):
with leaders?
Do you see a similar thingaround over-responsibility,
guilt, those kind of things?
Jonelle Massey (15:34):
Yes, I'm an educational consultant for
principals, so you can onlyimagine in the times that we're
in, where you know teachers arevery stressed out, they're
enduring a lot and they're nothappy and they're expressing
that on a daily basis and theprincipal feels responsible not
(15:54):
only for the day-to-dayoperations of the building but
also the wellbeing of theirteachers because that is pressed
upon them.
You know, to have thispsychological safe space for
teachers.
But we have to give a littlebit of grace and some boundaries
with the principal to say,listen, that teacher responded
(16:17):
in that way because that's howshe felt to respond and I don't
think it's any indication ofwhat you've done or haven't done
.
Sara Best (16:25):
Right.
Jonelle Massey (16:26):
Yeah.
Sara Best (16:26):
That's helpful and that's something each of us as
individuals should keep in mind.
You know, people areexperiencing what they are
experiencing.
We don't have to make what theydo or say or don't do or don't
say mean anything about us orthem, but in sometimes in an
agitated or fearful,dysregulated state, that's the
(16:48):
easiest, you know.
Assumption is, you know wedefault to.
So that's another good piece,that that's right there.
Jonelle Massey (16:55):
I don't want to dismiss the fact that, as
leaders, we need to create aspace that people feel like they
can make mistakes and that theycan grow and that they can
build capacity, and so that ifthey have some emotional
regulation deficiencies, thenlet's create a space to hold
(17:17):
them accountable for being ableto bounce back with 28 kids
sitting in front of him lookingat them.
You know, in certain settings,for educators for sure, but I
think it's a balance too.
So I don't want to come acrossas someone who's like we should
just jump into every adversity.
I mean, some places are unsafe,yes, and some feelings are more
(17:40):
than uncomfortable, and I thinkwe have to look at it like we
would.
Physical health and that's how Iexplain it to folks Like, if we
think about mental health thesame way we think about physical
health, sometimes my health isgood, sometimes it's bad.
There are certain areas in myphysical health that needs more
attention than others.
You mentioned building muscle,John, earlier.
(18:04):
Like I think about that, weneed to be able to build muscle
with our mental health as well,and the way we do that is we
lift heavy weights.
John Broer (18:15):
That's a great analogy and I'm going to go back
to your comment aboutpsychological safety because in
our work in the business worldand psychological safety I mean
we have an instrument we usethat actually measures it.
One of the things we talk aboutis to de-stigmatize failure.
But I was presenting to a groupand a business leader came up
(18:37):
to me and he said I want you tocome talk to my leadership
because I think that's a problemin our organization.
There is a stigma of fear, afailure that is inhibiting
people from moving forward andbeing able to really lean into
the work and fail safely.
And what's interesting aboutthat is, like it or not, the
(18:59):
leader, the principal, the teamleader, the executive they have
a disproportionately largerimpact on that.
And it's not right, wrong, goodor bad, it just is so.
If our leaders, our managers,are not aware of that, then they
have a real tendency or athreat to drift into the boss
hole zone and create a veryunsafe space.
Jonelle Massey (19:18):
Yeah, I love her work about hospitals and
talking about, yeah, you know,being able to report the
mistakes.
I tell people all the time Iwant to go to a hospital who is
transparent about what they'redoing right and what they're
doing wrong.
I used a lot of her work aswell.
Sara Best (19:33):
I'm with you.
I'd rather go somewhere and betreated by somebody who might
even be below the line, but atleast they know they are and
they're working it.
So, Jonelle, you had talkedabout this emotional agility,
which, in sports, we know whatagility means you're fast,
you're quick, you know yourspeed to shot or speed to
(19:54):
whatever is superb.
So, with emotional agility,maybe just tell us what that
really means.
And you had mentioned about howthat, combined with empathy,
creates something very helpful.
Jonelle Massey (20:07):
Can we hear more about that.
Yeah, yeah, I came across Dr.
Susan David's work about twoyears ago and she coined the
term emotional agility.
When I think about agility inthe athletic world, I think
about flexibility, a lot ofathleticism, but really the flow
and fluidness of movement, andso that's why emotional agility
(20:33):
I love the term together becauseif we can be fluid with our
emotions and let them flow andnot take captive of us she uses
the term getting hooked bythoughts like ruminating
thoughts or feelings and notbeing able to move forward and
be flexible and agile, and soshe has some steps to emotional
(20:56):
agility, and as I was readingthose steps, I thought this is
how I described empathy.
So I love her even more becauseshe talks about acknowledging
the feeling or the thought, orbeing aware.
I talk about acknowledgingother people's feelings and
where they are in life as partof empathy, and so just
(21:20):
combining those two together, Ithink we can take emotional
agility and use it so that wecan practice empathy with each
other.
One of the key parts aboutemotional agility that I love is
she says once you're able tolet things flow and stay in
neutral, you can now take actionto walking out your why, and to
(21:44):
me, I think we need to havemore value conversations than
we've ever had before.
Yes, and we do in social mediachat rooms about you know
politics, but like really, youknow politics, but like really.
(22:04):
What do we value in our homes?
What do we value as far as howwe want to look and behave in
this world?
And so do I value being rightright now that's our practice,
is a lot in my marriage or do Ivalue peace?
And so in my late 20s I valuedbeing right all the time, and
later on in life it's somethingdifferent.
(22:25):
But I always ask my children isthe decision you're about to
make or the decision that youmade, does it align with your
values?
Yes, and I think we can onlyget to that if we're able to
move the emotions out of the way, to get our thinking brain
intact and with empathy.
(22:45):
I think the misconception isthat it's always about feeling
and vicariously feeling withothers, and I want to be able to
flow that away, just likeemotional agility, and let's get
to the thought behind people'sfeelings.
So that's where the trueconnection occurs.
Sara Best (23:03):
The values piece is really important and I'm so glad
you highlighted that.
I wonder if more emphasis onvalues, people understanding and
generating their values andconstantly working to live into
those values might not reducesome of the other uncertainty
and challenge that they createor that they face in their life
(23:26):
and reduce some of the emotionaldrama even around decisions and
things like that.
So I just want to say anyleader, any person, would
benefit from a values reflectionand either establishing or
re-establishing those values.
So emotional agility andempathy.
And your book, by the way, itwas published in 2021.
(23:48):
Is that correct, correct?
It's called "The Miseducation ofEmpathy and I think this is a
great place for us to go as wehead toward our wrap up.
It might even be the mostimportant place for us to go as
we head toward our wrap-up.
It might even be the mostimportant place you know.
We know that the research andthe data says that people are
calling, screaming for empathyin the workplace and they want a
different kind of environment.
But you have some poignantthoughts about, maybe, how we
(24:15):
even get there and if we can getthere.
So maybe I'll toss it over toyou and say tell us about you
know the thoughts there.
Jonelle Massey (24:18):
Maybe I'll toss it over to you and say tell us
about the thoughts there.
The research also says thatbosses are afraid to show
empathy because it makes themseem weak.
Yeah, still, still.
And I think it's because theydon't understand what empathy is
.
So this is my theory on whatempathy is, based on my lived
(24:41):
experiences and so, as anathlete and someone who was told
to stay calm and stay neutraland don't get too emotional in
the heat of competition, thatkind of transferred over to my
life.
So I wasn't a very high and lowemotional person, wasn't a very
(25:04):
high and low emotional person.
I was a great listener, but Iwas never described as someone
who was empathetic, and I thinkthat's because I didn't cry with
people and I was pretty neutralaround people.
And so I really, in college,start thinking about it because
I had a lot of adversity incollege, particularly with
basketball, because my headcoach that recruited me I never
(25:27):
played for and he promised methat he would work with me.
Basketball was not my firstsport and so I was recruited as
a project.
I went to Xavier University ona soccer visit and end up
playing basketball.
Sara Best (25:41):
Wow!
Jonelle Massey (25:42):
Yeah, and because my parents said they
were not sitting outside anymore.
And so so here we were.
Oh my gosh, I was okay, sort ofokay with it, because the coach
promised me that he would workwith me and then he went to
Toledo.
So that was Coach Elan.
Oh, wow, yeah.
(26:04):
And so then I don't know if youknow this, but I had Coach Cole
up my second, my second year atXavier.
She was my assistant coach atXavier, but anyway did not know
that, yeah, it was rough.
It was rough and she was veryempathetic.
And she was very empathetic butI found myself trying to find
(26:42):
someone who understood feelingcomplaining about.
You get to travel the world, andso it was very hard for people
to understand some of thecentral themes that a lot of
people go through, which isbeing disappointed because of
abandonment or just things notgoing as planned or as promised.
Right.
And so I just started exploring this idea of
(27:04):
what empathy really is, andparticularly that whole saying
put yourself in someone else'sshoes.
And I struggled with that and Ithought how can anybody put
themselves in my shoes?
They've not gone through allthe things.
And I thought how can anybodyput themselves in my shoes?
They've not gone through allthe things and I don't know how
I could do that for others.
And so the tagline of my book is"keep yourself in your own
(27:27):
shoes so that you can createspace for people to be heard.
Sara Best (27:31):
Yes.
Jonelle Massey (27:32):
And so I started my journey and I think if we
can get to the point where we'renot trying to feel what other
people are feeling, but getbehind the feeling and
investigate their experience andtheir thoughts and their
beliefs, then maybe we can havesome connection there.
And so there's a process in thebook that I you know, the ABC
(27:55):
model, and then I also talkabout some archetypes of how we
express empathy.
Sara Best (28:01):
It is a beautiful book.
You put a lot of your own storyin there, other really powerful
stories.
We'll make sure that ourlisteners have access to be able
to purchase the book or find itonline through our show notes.
I think what I'm hearing yousay it reminds me of something
I've heard Brene Brown sayaround empathy it's believing
(28:23):
the experience and the feelingsof others.
So I like how you have releasedus of the responsibility to
have to feel the feelings.
I mean, we can do that too, butit's more about supporting,
working to understand andstarting from where they are
believing their experience.
(28:43):
In your case, what would it havebeen like for you if people
didn't question or tell you tosuck it up?
You got a full ride.
You should just enjoy where youare.
What if they really began tounderstand?
Hey, she just needs some things.
She's experienced a significantshift in loss.
She needs some certainty.
She needs some clarity.
I think that's really greatadvice.
(29:04):
And for the leaders who areuncomfortable or don't really
know how to express empathy,it's really not about you, it's
about the other person.
It's about you focusing on theother person, and if you don't
know what they're saying or youcan't relate to what they're
feeling, then you got to asksome questions.
Jonelle Massey (29:24):
Not dumb questions.
John Broer (29:27):
Can I real quick one of the things, Sara, we've
talked about, what is our saying?
The greatest sources offrustration is unmet
expectations.
And I think, Jonelle, I meanyour expectation was you were, I
mean you made a switch insports, you were going to play
basketball for this person whowas going to develop you, and
then they're gone.
(29:47):
So those expectations arecompletely wiped away or are in
complete conflict with whateverthe new situation is.
I cannot tell you how many,Sara, you experienced this.
How many times I've talked topeople just had it this past
weekend a young businessprofessional.
He went to work for thisindividual at a bank and six
months later this person leftand a new person came in and it
(30:08):
was an absolute nightmare.
Actually, he may be on theprogram I'm trying to convince
him to be on it because I saidthis is a great story but that's
a great example of where I amcommitting to this with specific
expectations and hopes anddreams of developing and then
that person is gone andeverything changes and for it,
(30:29):
in the world of business, theequivalent would be well, you
got a job, you know you'regetting, you're making good
money.
What are you complaining about?
And it's like that's not theissue, so that makes a lot of
sense.
I think there are a lot ofpeople, a lot of our listeners,
that have experienced exactlythat, whether it's in sports or
work, and it's like this ispainful.
And the fact that these otherthings exist doesn't discount
(30:51):
the fact that I am reallystruggling with this.
Jonelle Massey (30:54):
Yeah, and expectations unmet without
support is even worse, yes, soin both of those situations in
my experience and the one youjust shared, it's like he now
doesn't have the support hethought he was.
John Broer (31:07):
Right yeah.
Sara Best (31:10):
Jonnelle, how can people get a hold of you?
What might they be able tobenefit from if they had the
opportunity?
Would they have the opportunityto work with you?
Jonelle Massey (31:19):
Yes, so I am the owner of Agility Counseling
Group and I do one-on-onecounseling.
I do a lot of work withathletic teams.
As I mentioned before, I'm aneducational consultant, so I
work for a consulting firm andmost of our clients are out west
.
But then I also do someexecutive therapeutic leadership
(31:43):
coaching, and so that'sinteresting because I actually
do therapy with our leaders incombination with their coaching,
and so that program has beenreally successful because of the
live feedback.
I think a lot of the coachingis done virtually or not live,
(32:11):
and so to be able to walk withour leaders in their setting,
their work setting, and be ableto observe and give live
feedback and some suggestionsduring that time is very
beneficial, and it's how westarted the podcast today.
It's like how do we deal withthings in the midst of what's
(32:31):
going on?
Yes, so yeah, that's how I ambeing used in this world right
now, yeah, and I can be foundeverywhere.
Sara Best (32:43):
Good.
And I love that.
I think it's unique and it doesset this kind of therapeutic
work apart that you can explorehistory and feelings and
emotions and deeper things yetprovide support and
accountability for leaders rightwhere they are.
And I mean, if you pluck themout of the environment and then
(33:03):
they have to go back in, I'venever understood how we're
supposed to take what we talkabout and then go live it out.
It's real time with you andthat's really powerful.
Thank you so much for yourefforts, you know, for sharing
with us today how you work, yourwork, now captured in a
beautiful book.
We'll make sure our listenershave access to that, and all
(33:25):
good things to you as you moveahead, thank you.
John Broer (33:28):
A wonderful conversation.
Thank you, Jonelle, and to allof our listeners out there, we
will see you next time on theBossh ole Chronicles.
Thanks very much for checkingout this episode of the Bossh
ole Chronicles.
It was so good to have you here, and if you have your own boss
hole story that you want toshare with the Bossh ole
(33:49):
Transformation Nation, justreach out.
You can email us atmystory@thebossholechronicles.
com.
Again,mystory@thebossholechronicles.
com, we'll see you next time.
Well, welcome to all of our friends out there in The
Bossh ole Transformation Nationto another installment of the
Bossh ole Chronicles.
This is your co-host, whichmeans guess what?
Guess who else is here, Sara.
Sara Best, and she's going totell us who our guest is today.
Sara Best (00:20):
Hey, John, nice to see you today on The Bossh ole
Chronicles.
Today our guest is a nationallycertified clinical therapist.
She is a former D1 athlete andshe's married to a D1 coach.
She's like surrounded byathletes her children and she
works with athletes and leaders.
Her name is Jonelle Massey andshe's also written a really
(00:41):
powerful book called "TheMiseducation of Empathy.
But our subject matter todaymight just blow people's minds.
We entered into thisconversation we want to talk
about mental health, but Jonellehas kind of a state of things
today around kids and leaders inmental health that I think we
all should probably tune intoand be aware of, along with some
(01:04):
deeper understanding of whywe've arrived at this place and
what we can do about it.
John Broer (01:08):
That sounds like an amazing topic.
Let's jump in.
Sara Best (01:11):
Let's do it.
John Broer (01:16):
The Bossh ole Chronicles are brought to you by
Real Good Ventures, a talentoptimization firm helping
organizations diagnose theirmost critical people and
execution issues withworld-class analytics.
Make sure to check out all theresources in the show notes and
be sure to follow us and shareyour feedback.
Enjoy today's episode.
Sara Best (01:39):
Jonelle Massey.
Welcome to The Bossh oleChronicles.
Jonelle Massey (01:42):
Thank you for having me.
Sara Best (01:44):
Yeah, it's really good to have you, especially
with focus right now on mentalhealth, and let's just agree
that it's not a new focus, it'sjust something that we are maybe
talking about more frequentlyon the podcast here.
Our listeners hopefully will betuned into and already maybe
even responding to signs andsymptoms and challenges they
(02:05):
might be experiencing withmental health, especially
leaders.
But, Jonelle, we reached out toyou as an expert, a nationally
certified clinical therapist andsomeone who has a great deal of
experience working with leaders, athletes, organizations of all
types and sizes, to help ourlisteners debunk any myth they
(02:29):
might have about what do we meanby mental health.
Jonelle Massey (02:33):
Well, that's a good question.
I'm glad you asked me that mycolleagues and I are in an up
war, so to speak, because welove the fact that there's a lot
of awareness around mentalhealth, and that's kind of the
thing that we've been trying todo for decades is bring
awareness and also look at thestigma of mental health.
(02:58):
And so, with those two things,we're glad that there is
awareness and mental health isbeing talked about.
We're also worried about howit's being communicated and
who's driving the wheel of theconversation, and we're noticing
that we are defining mentalhealth nowadays as the absence
(03:22):
of uncomfortable feelings andthe avoidance of adversity, and
so, unfortunately, I don't thinkwe're going to be in a space of
building capacity andresiliency if we're just trying
to get rid of the things thatwould help build those things,
which happens to be adversitiesand, a lot of times,
(03:46):
uncomfortable feelings andemotions.
Sara Best (03:49):
I had never heard that before.
The avoidance of uncomfortablefeelings, and what was the
second part?
Jonelle Massey (03:56):
And just the absence of adversity, the
absence of adversities.
Sara Best (04:00):
Yeah, Wow.
And you know, in my mind, justpreparing for our conversation
this morning, I was kind ofgoing in a totally different
direction, even reflecting on myown experience of the last
number of years, most recentlyfeeling overwhelmed, uncertain,
in many cases ill-equipped, andthen totally thinking
(04:21):
something's wrong with me.
And I wonder if other peoplethink that?
And then, if they do, how dothey make sense of what you just
said?
Jonelle Massey (04:29):
Yeah, well, in a lot of Instagram posts and a
lot of influencers and folks whoare very interested in the
topic of mental health, istelling folks to run away from
anything that causes you to feelall the things you just
mentioned overwhelmed, uncertain, all of those things.
Ill-equipped, yeah, yeah.
(04:51):
Rather than leaning in andstretching and trying to find
ways to navigate those veryappropriate, normal human
emotions and that's theconversation we're not having
about mental health is that weare to look at these as
opportunities to stretch andbuild capacity.
John Broer (05:15):
Can I ask a really quick question, Jonelle?
Because the avoidance when Ihear about avoidance behavior,
part of that is those are one ofthe two pitfalls of an unsafe
environment or a lack ofpsychological safety, and I know
you talk about that in yourwork or you've addressed that.
So in other words, peopleeither they're being instructed
(05:38):
to avoid that and or they're notequipped to do that, and so
it's sort of a double-edgedsword.
By avoiding it you're notbuilding that muscle and it
doesn't improve the situation.
Jonelle Massey (05:53):
I just think that this discovery of you know
where are we going was a littlebit easier because, as you
mentioned, I work with athletes,and so athletes are always
around adversity.
You know, in order to win,they've got to get through a
barrier, someone who's trying tostop them from succeeding, and
(06:14):
so that's the space that I'vealways been in in helping
athletes figure out how tonavigate their emotions.
Athletes figure out how tonavigate their emotions, and
what I love to talk about isemotional agility combined with
empathy, and figuring out thoseways to kind of stay in neutral
(06:35):
in order to get that prefrontalcortex thinking and what's a way
to solve the problem in thewind.
And I don't think it should beany different for leaders, or
any different for any type ofindustry or for us who don't
dribble a ball or skate on ice.
Sara Best (06:52):
I love that and agree wholeheartedly.
Our listeners already know youwere a very successful D1
athlete.
You played basketball incollege.
Your own lived experiencethrough performance and meeting
high expectations and highdemand would attest to your
approach here.
If people are getting themessage to run away from the
(07:16):
uncomfortable feelings and theadversities, where are they
being instructed to go?
Like, what are they supposed todo?
Jonelle Massey (07:22):
For example, mindfulness and those kinds of
strategies.
I think even then those arekind of twisted in a way to
where avoidance is in the front.
So let's remove ourselves fromtoxic environments first and
then go and be one withourselves and be able to calm my
nervous system down, ratherthan doing those things in the
(07:44):
midst of adversity.
And so even with strategiesthat we're hearing about,
they're not being explained todo that in the midst of chaos,
or even not even chaos, but justminor stressors.
And that's really the concernis that we're going to look up a
(08:06):
decade from now and people arenot going to learn how, they're
not going to know how to dealwith conflict.
We're going to be in thesesilos, living life, just scared
to go out and do anything thatmight include some
uncomfortability or some type ofadversity.
John Broer (08:27):
So I'm going to ask a slightly different question.
I mean, Sara was talking aboutwhat are they doing or where are
they going, but what is theorigin of this?
And first of all, is itsomething relatively unique and
new.
Although I can't believe in theworld of human behavior and
those variables that it'snecessarily new.
But what's the origin?
(08:48):
And the other part too is isthere anything that is somewhat
generational about this?
Because there are fivegenerations in the workplace
right now, and of course, wealways talk about helping
managers avoid the B oss holeZone and we'll get to that in a
second.
But origins, and are we seeingit in a particular group of
people?
Jonelle Massey (09:07):
I think that, as far as origin, I think when we,
you know, we want to mentionCOVID all the time, but I think
there is some validity to usbeing in a space where, all of a
sudden, things were out of ourcontrol, and so now we've gone
from one extreme to make surethat everything is in our
control, and so we're going tocontrol our environment so that
(09:31):
we are not faced with surprisesor unpredictability or adversity
or challenges.
I think that's one source oforigin.
When you touched on generations, again it's going from one
extreme to the other.
So when I think about my parents, who are in their late 70s and
very different parenting style,where it was like children are
(09:57):
to be seen and not heard, youknow you only speak when you're
spoken to.
What goes on in this housestays in this house.
I can go on and on and on.
And we knew that some of thatwasn't psychologically safe but
also just wasn't a space forcuriosity and growth and for
(10:17):
self-agency.
And so we go from one extremeto the other yeah, extreme to
the other.
So where, you know, we havegentle parenting, but we also
have, for parents, protectingour kids from any type of
uncomfortable emotion oradversity.
John Broer (10:32):
Right.
Jonelle Massey (10:33):
And so when you talk about, this is something
that's happening generation andI might have to take blame for
that with my generation.
Sara Best (10:41):
Me too.
Jonelle Massey (10:49):
But I do think that it's going to continue,
because my children, who are 17or 13, love life because I have
done some of that, and sothey're probably going to repeat
the behavior for their child.
They're going to say, oh, I hada great childhood, didn't
really have a whole lot of thisor that, and so I can see it
continually.
Sara Best (11:02):
Is that what we call snowplow parents, where they
just plow all the tough stuffout of the way and smooth the
road and the path for their kids?
Jonelle Massey (11:11):
I've never heard of that term, but this sounds
about right to me.
Sara Best (11:14):
I learned about it after I heard the term
helicopter parents, like Ithought that was the new thing,
but it makes a lot of sense, lotof sense.
And if we think about John,your question about
generationally, how leaders are,you know kind of dealing with
multiple generations, theirleadership style, if it's born
(11:34):
from the command and control,and you know, I'll give you
something to cry about.
Like you know, quit yourbellyache and get the job done.
John Broer (11:40):
Leave your personal life at the door.
Sara Best (11:42):
Yeah, and you have people coming in who have been
conditioned to wow.
Jonelle Massey (11:48):
To express everything.
Sara Best (11:49):
Yes.
Jonelle Massey (11:50):
All the time.
Sara Best (11:51):
Yes.
John Broer (11:52):
Yeah, go ahead.
Sorry, sorry Go.
Sara Best (11:53):
Well, I have a question.
So, based on how you describedwhat kids and people are and
athletes are being trained to do, it seems like the missing
piece.
Then, if we have unhappiness ora disconnect, then we go find
oneness with ourselves and weuse mindfulness and I'm not
(12:14):
knocking mindfulness at all, butit seems like the missing piece
in there would be the actualconnecting to and feeling the
feelings all the way through,absolutely.
Jonelle Massey (12:26):
And that's great mental health.
Sara Best (12:28):
Okay, that's good mental health.
Understanding where thefeelings are in your body.
Recently I was listening to adifferent podcast and they
talked about how it's not theemotion that's the trauma.
It's not even necessarily theexperience that a person has
that creates the trauma.
It's that we don't deal withthe emotion and it gets trapped,
(12:48):
maybe physically, in our body.
That creates trauma.
Jonelle Massey (12:52):
And also I think we haven't had an opportunity
to build confidence and so ifwe're not acknowledging the
emotion that we're having andthen be able to work through it,
we can't later say been there,done that.
And although this situationlooks a little different, it's
very similar and I have thecapacity, I have the skill set
(13:12):
and I have the confidence to beable to face that head on.
Sara Best (13:17):
I'm worried.
I think that's what you saidwe're concerned, I'm concerned
too always improving.
John Broer (13:45):
You want one generation to.
I don't want to say coddle orprotect, but we're hoping that
we are equipping our children tobe prepared for the world and
just do better than we did.
On the other hand, though, toignore the adversity of the
world, because there's a lot ofreally dark parts of the world.
That's what's what you'retalking about is that, if we are
shielding from the reality that, listen, we want you to be good
, you know citizens andhonorable people and whatever
(14:09):
that may look like, you knowraising children, the reality is
you are going to hit somethings in your life that are
going to set you back on yourheels and be hard and painful.
So somewhere in there wherethat message is getting lost, or
we're just shielding peoplefrom that.
Jonelle Massey (14:26):
Yeah, also, we as parents are also aware of our
kids' emotions and care aboutour kids' emotions, and for some
reason that has translated tothat we are responsible for our
kids' emotions.
John Broer (14:42):
Okay.
Jonelle Massey (14:43):
And so if my child is sad, I must have not
done enough or I caused it tohappen.
And so you know, I've got tofigure out how to make myself
feel better and not feelresponsible, guilty about what
I've done.
Sara Best (15:04):
Yeah, oh, that's a big one.
What about, I mean, is thatalso happening in the workplace?
One could theorize thatBossholes don't necessarily have
that insight, awareness orinterest potentially in you know
, understanding or respectingother people's emotions.
But do you see a similar thingwhen you know, when you work
(15:27):
with leaders?
Do you see a similar thingaround over-responsibility,
guilt, those kind of things?
Jonelle Massey (15:34):
Yes, I'm an educational consultant for
principals, so you can onlyimagine in the times that we're
in, where you know teachers arevery stressed out, they're
enduring a lot and they're nothappy and they're expressing
that on a daily basis and theprincipal feels responsible not
(15:54):
only for the day-to-dayoperations of the building but
also the wellbeing of theirteachers because that is pressed
upon them.
You know, to have thispsychological safe space for
teachers.
But we have to give a littlebit of grace and some boundaries
with the principal to say,listen, that teacher responded
(16:17):
in that way because that's howshe felt to respond and I don't
think it's any indication ofwhat you've done or haven't done
.
Sara Best (16:25):
Right.
Jonelle Massey (16:26):
Yeah.
Sara Best (16:26):
That's helpful and that's something each of us as
individuals should keep in mind.
You know, people areexperiencing what they are
experiencing.
We don't have to make what theydo or say or don't do or don't
say mean anything about us orthem, but in sometimes in an
agitated or fearful,dysregulated state, that's the
(16:48):
easiest, you know.
Assumption is, you know wedefault to.
So that's another good piece,that that's right there.
Jonelle Massey (16:55):
I don't want to dismiss the fact that, as
leaders, we need to create aspace that people feel like they
can make mistakes and that theycan grow and that they can
build capacity, and so that ifthey have some emotional
regulation deficiencies, thenlet's create a space to hold
(17:17):
them accountable for being ableto bounce back with 28 kids
sitting in front of him lookingat them.
You know, in certain settings,for educators for sure, but I
think it's a balance too.
So I don't want to come acrossas someone who's like we should
just jump into every adversity.
I mean, some places are unsafe,yes, and some feelings are more
(17:40):
than uncomfortable, and I thinkwe have to look at it like we
would.
Physical health and that's how Iexplain it to folks Like, if we
think about mental health thesame way we think about physical
health, sometimes my health isgood, sometimes it's bad.
There are certain areas in myphysical health that needs more
attention than others.
You mentioned building muscle,John, earlier.
(18:04):
Like I think about that, weneed to be able to build muscle
with our mental health as well,and the way we do that is we
lift heavy weights.
John Broer (18:15):
That's a great analogy and I'm going to go back
to your comment aboutpsychological safety because in
our work in the business worldand psychological safety I mean
we have an instrument we usethat actually measures it.
One of the things we talk aboutis to de-stigmatize failure.
But I was presenting to a groupand a business leader came up
(18:37):
to me and he said I want you tocome talk to my leadership
because I think that's a problemin our organization.
There is a stigma of fear, afailure that is inhibiting
people from moving forward andbeing able to really lean into
the work and fail safely.
And what's interesting aboutthat is, like it or not, the
(18:59):
leader, the principal, the teamleader, the executive they have
a disproportionately largerimpact on that.
And it's not right, wrong, goodor bad, it just is so.
If our leaders, our managers,are not aware of that, then they
have a real tendency or athreat to drift into the boss
hole zone and create a veryunsafe space.
Jonelle Massey (19:18):
Yeah, I love her work about hospitals and
talking about, yeah, you know,being able to report the
mistakes.
I tell people all the time Iwant to go to a hospital who is
transparent about what they'redoing right and what they're
doing wrong.
I used a lot of her work aswell.
Sara Best (19:33):
I'm with you.
I'd rather go somewhere and betreated by somebody who might
even be below the line, but atleast they know they are and
they're working it.
So, Jonelle, you had talkedabout this emotional agility,
which, in sports, we know whatagility means you're fast,
you're quick, you know yourspeed to shot or speed to
(19:54):
whatever is superb.
So, with emotional agility,maybe just tell us what that
really means.
And you had mentioned about howthat, combined with empathy,
creates something very helpful.
Jonelle Massey (20:07):
Can we hear more about that.
Yeah, yeah, I came across Dr.
Susan David's work about twoyears ago and she coined the
term emotional agility.
When I think about agility inthe athletic world, I think
about flexibility, a lot ofathleticism, but really the flow
and fluidness of movement, andso that's why emotional agility
(20:33):
I love the term together becauseif we can be fluid with our
emotions and let them flow andnot take captive of us she uses
the term getting hooked bythoughts like ruminating
thoughts or feelings and notbeing able to move forward and
be flexible and agile, and soshe has some steps to emotional
(20:56):
agility, and as I was readingthose steps, I thought this is
how I described empathy.
So I love her even more becauseshe talks about acknowledging
the feeling or the thought, orbeing aware.
I talk about acknowledgingother people's feelings and
where they are in life as partof empathy, and so just
(21:20):
combining those two together, Ithink we can take emotional
agility and use it so that wecan practice empathy with each
other.
One of the key parts aboutemotional agility that I love is
she says once you're able tolet things flow and stay in
neutral, you can now take actionto walking out your why, and to
(21:44):
me, I think we need to havemore value conversations than
we've ever had before.
Yes, and we do in social mediachat rooms about you know
politics, but like really, youknow politics, but like really.
(22:04):
What do we value in our homes?
What do we value as far as howwe want to look and behave in
this world?
And so do I value being rightright now that's our practice,
is a lot in my marriage or do Ivalue peace?
And so in my late 20s I valuedbeing right all the time, and
later on in life it's somethingdifferent.
(22:25):
But I always ask my children isthe decision you're about to
make or the decision that youmade, does it align with your
values?
Yes, and I think we can onlyget to that if we're able to
move the emotions out of the way, to get our thinking brain
intact and with empathy.
(22:45):
I think the misconception isthat it's always about feeling
and vicariously feeling withothers, and I want to be able to
flow that away, just likeemotional agility, and let's get
to the thought behind people'sfeelings.
So that's where the trueconnection occurs.
Sara Best (23:03):
The values piece is really important and I'm so glad
you highlighted that.
I wonder if more emphasis onvalues, people understanding and
generating their values andconstantly working to live into
those values might not reducesome of the other uncertainty
and challenge that they createor that they face in their life
(23:26):
and reduce some of the emotionaldrama even around decisions and
things like that.
So I just want to say anyleader, any person, would
benefit from a values reflectionand either establishing or
re-establishing those values.
So emotional agility andempathy.
And your book, by the way, itwas published in 2021.
(23:48):
Is that correct, correct?
It's called "The Miseducation ofEmpathy and I think this is a
great place for us to go as wehead toward our wrap up.
It might even be the mostimportant place for us to go as
we head toward our wrap-up.
It might even be the mostimportant place you know.
We know that the research andthe data says that people are
calling, screaming for empathyin the workplace and they want a
different kind of environment.
But you have some poignantthoughts about, maybe, how we
(24:15):
even get there and if we can getthere.
So maybe I'll toss it over toyou and say tell us about you
know the thoughts there.
Jonelle Massey (24:18):
Maybe I'll toss it over to you and say tell us
about the thoughts there.
The research also says thatbosses are afraid to show
empathy because it makes themseem weak.
Yeah, still, still.
And I think it's because theydon't understand what empathy is
.
So this is my theory on whatempathy is, based on my lived
(24:41):
experiences and so, as anathlete and someone who was told
to stay calm and stay neutraland don't get too emotional in
the heat of competition, thatkind of transferred over to my
life.
So I wasn't a very high and lowemotional person, wasn't a very
(25:04):
high and low emotional person.
I was a great listener, but Iwas never described as someone
who was empathetic, and I thinkthat's because I didn't cry with
people and I was pretty neutralaround people.
And so I really, in college,start thinking about it because
I had a lot of adversity incollege, particularly with
basketball, because my headcoach that recruited me I never
(25:27):
played for and he promised methat he would work with me.
Basketball was not my firstsport and so I was recruited as
a project.
I went to Xavier University ona soccer visit and end up
playing basketball.
Sara Best (25:41):
Wow!
Jonelle Massey (25:42):
Yeah, and because my parents said they
were not sitting outside anymore.
And so so here we were.
Oh my gosh, I was okay, sort ofokay with it, because the coach
promised me that he would workwith me and then he went to
Toledo.
So that was Coach Elan.
Oh, wow, yeah.
(26:04):
And so then I don't know if youknow this, but I had Coach Cole
up my second, my second year atXavier.
She was my assistant coach atXavier, but anyway did not know
that, yeah, it was rough.
It was rough and she was veryempathetic.
And she was very empathetic butI found myself trying to find
(26:42):
someone who understood feelingcomplaining about.
You get to travel the world, andso it was very hard for people
to understand some of thecentral themes that a lot of
people go through, which isbeing disappointed because of
abandonment or just things notgoing as planned or as promised.
Right.
And so I just started exploring this idea of
(27:04):
what empathy really is, andparticularly that whole saying
put yourself in someone else'sshoes.
And I struggled with that and Ithought how can anybody put
themselves in my shoes?
They've not gone through allthe things.
And I thought how can anybodyput themselves in my shoes?
They've not gone through allthe things and I don't know how
I could do that for others.
And so the tagline of my book is"keep yourself in your own
(27:27):
shoes so that you can createspace for people to be heard.
Sara Best (27:31):
Yes.
Jonelle Massey (27:32):
And so I started my journey and I think if we
can get to the point where we'renot trying to feel what other
people are feeling, but getbehind the feeling and
investigate their experience andtheir thoughts and their
beliefs, then maybe we can havesome connection there.
And so there's a process in thebook that I you know, the ABC
(27:55):
model, and then I also talkabout some archetypes of how we
express empathy.
Sara Best (28:01):
It is a beautiful book.
You put a lot of your own storyin there, other really powerful
stories.
We'll make sure that ourlisteners have access to be able
to purchase the book or find itonline through our show notes.
I think what I'm hearing yousay it reminds me of something
I've heard Brene Brown sayaround empathy it's believing
(28:23):
the experience and the feelingsof others.
So I like how you have releasedus of the responsibility to
have to feel the feelings.
I mean, we can do that too, butit's more about supporting,
working to understand andstarting from where they are
believing their experience.
(28:43):
In your case, what would it havebeen like for you if people
didn't question or tell you tosuck it up?
You got a full ride.
You should just enjoy where youare.
What if they really began tounderstand?
Hey, she just needs some things.
She's experienced a significantshift in loss.
She needs some certainty.
She needs some clarity.
I think that's really greatadvice.
(29:04):
And for the leaders who areuncomfortable or don't really
know how to express empathy,it's really not about you, it's
about the other person.
It's about you focusing on theother person, and if you don't
know what they're saying or youcan't relate to what they're
feeling, then you got to asksome questions.
Jonelle Massey (29:24):
Not dumb questions.
John Broer (29:27):
Can I real quick one of the things, Sara, we've
talked about, what is our saying?
The greatest sources offrustration is unmet
expectations.
And I think, Jonelle, I meanyour expectation was you were, I
mean you made a switch insports, you were going to play
basketball for this person whowas going to develop you, and
then they're gone.
(29:47):
So those expectations arecompletely wiped away or are in
complete conflict with whateverthe new situation is.
I cannot tell you how many,Sara, you experienced this.
How many times I've talked topeople just had it this past
weekend a young businessprofessional.
He went to work for thisindividual at a bank and six
months later this person leftand a new person came in and it
(30:08):
was an absolute nightmare.
Actually, he may be on theprogram I'm trying to convince
him to be on it because I saidthis is a great story but that's
a great example of where I amcommitting to this with specific
expectations and hopes anddreams of developing and then
that person is gone andeverything changes and for it,
(30:29):
in the world of business, theequivalent would be well, you
got a job, you know you'regetting, you're making good
money.
What are you complaining about?
And it's like that's not theissue, so that makes a lot of
sense.
I think there are a lot ofpeople, a lot of our listeners,
that have experienced exactlythat, whether it's in sports or
work, and it's like this ispainful.
And the fact that these otherthings exist doesn't discount
(30:51):
the fact that I am reallystruggling with this.
Jonelle Massey (30:54):
Yeah, and expectations unmet without
support is even worse, yes, soin both of those situations in
my experience and the one youjust shared, it's like he now
doesn't have the support hethought he was.
John Broer (31:07):
Right yeah.
Sara Best (31:10):
Jonnelle, how can people get a hold of you?
What might they be able tobenefit from if they had the
opportunity?
Would they have the opportunityto work with you?
Jonelle Massey (31:19):
Yes, so I am the owner of Agility Counseling
Group and I do one-on-onecounseling.
I do a lot of work withathletic teams.
As I mentioned before, I'm aneducational consultant, so I
work for a consulting firm andmost of our clients are out west
.
But then I also do someexecutive therapeutic leadership
(31:43):
coaching, and so that'sinteresting because I actually
do therapy with our leaders incombination with their coaching,
and so that program has beenreally successful because of the
live feedback.
I think a lot of the coachingis done virtually or not live,
(32:11):
and so to be able to walk withour leaders in their setting,
their work setting, and be ableto observe and give live
feedback and some suggestionsduring that time is very
beneficial, and it's how westarted the podcast today.
It's like how do we deal withthings in the midst of what's
(32:31):
going on?
Yes, so yeah, that's how I ambeing used in this world right
now, yeah, and I can be foundeverywhere.
Sara Best (32:43):
Good.
And I love that.
I think it's unique and it doesset this kind of therapeutic
work apart that you can explorehistory and feelings and
emotions and deeper things yetprovide support and
accountability for leaders rightwhere they are.
And I mean, if you pluck themout of the environment and then
(33:03):
they have to go back in, I'venever understood how we're
supposed to take what we talkabout and then go live it out.
It's real time with you andthat's really powerful.
Thank you so much for yourefforts, you know, for sharing
with us today how you work, yourwork, now captured in a
beautiful book.
We'll make sure our listenershave access to that, and all
(33:25):
good things to you as you moveahead, thank you.
John Broer (33:28):
A wonderful conversation.
Thank you, Jonelle, and to allof our listeners out there, we
will see you next time on theBossh ole Chronicles.
Thanks very much for checkingout this episode of the Bossh
ole Chronicles.
It was so good to have you here, and if you have your own boss
hole story that you want toshare with the Bossh ole
(33:49):
Transformation Nation, justreach out.
You can email us atmystory@thebossholechronicles.
com.
Again,mystory@thebossholechronicles.
com, we'll see you next time.
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