September 2, 2025 • 22 mins
The hybrid work revolution isn't coming—it's already here. This revealing conversation with Jenny Mobius, Senior VP at SKEDDA and host of the Heroes of Hybrid Work podcast, cuts through the noise with hard data confirming what forward-thinking leaders already know: hybrid work delivers better results for both employees and organizations.
Click HERE for Part 2 of our interview with Jenny Moebius
- Click HERE for the Hybrid Work "grader"
- Click HERE for the "Heroes of Hybrid Work" podcast
- Click HERE for the report on the Hybrid Work Debate
- Click HERE to learn about Loom
- Click HERE for Skedda's website
- Click HERE for Jenny's LinkedIn profile
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Broer (00:00):
Hey everybody out there in The Bossh ole
Transformation Nation, this isyour host, John Broer, welcoming
you to this episode of TheBossh ole Chronicles.
And this is the Tuesday afterLabor Day 2025.
And I decided over the weekendbecause we are hearing so much
feedback and continued inputfrom clients and other
(00:22):
organizations about thechallenges with the remote
workforce or hybrid work.
And I remembered a little overa year ago we had Jenny Moebius
in the studio and we have awonderful two-part episode with
her.
She is the Senior VicePresident and Head of Marketing
at SKEDDA and also the host ofthe Heroes of Hybrid Work
(00:45):
podcast, and that was really thefocus of our interview with her
last year.
So I thought you know what wegot to bring this back as a
flashback because Jenny'sinsights, her tools, her
methodology, the informationprovided in these two episodes
are absolutely amazing.
So I thought, hey, great timeof year to reintroduce you to
(01:07):
Jenny Mobius, let's jump in.
The Boss Hole Chronicles arebrought to you by Real Good
Ventures, a talent optimizationfirm helping organizations
diagnose their most criticalpeople and execution issues with
world-class analytics.
Make sure to check out all theresources in the show notes and
be sure to follow us and shareyour feedback.
(01:29):
Enjoy today's episode.
Well, jenny, it is so good tohave you on the Boss Hole
Chronicles.
Welcome.
Jenny Moebius (01:39):
Pleasure to be here.
John and Sara Just excited toreconnect with you and share
what I've been up to since I wasat PI.
John Broer (01:47):
Our audience knows from the intro that we go back a
few years.
Our introduction to you camebased on your days with PI, but
you have been as it is nosurprise to us doing remarkable
work out there relative to theworld of work and what hybrid
(02:07):
means.
And, of course, in addition toall the wonderful things that
Skedda does, your creation ofthe Heroes of Hybrid podcast, I
think, is really relevant.
When I started to see theepisodes and listen to the
episodes that were popping up onLinkedIn, I said, oh gosh, not
only is it a good excuse toreconnect with Jenny, because
she's such an amazing individual, but our Boss Hole
(02:30):
Transformation Nation listenersneed to hear this.
So let's just kick off withyour inspiration behind the
podcast Heroes of Hybrid and whyit's so critical now.
Jenny Moebius (02:41):
Absolutely so.
Something I haven't mentionedto you before is, you know,
after PI, I really wanted tocontinue my own passion of
helping people in their ownworkplaces.
Right, we spend more time atwork than we do with our own
families, and I knew at Sketathat I could continue that
mission for myself how to makeworkplaces better.
At Sketa, there was a uniqueposition to really lean into
(03:05):
hybrid work, obviously, becausethat's what we help Our software
helps with, you know, helpinghybrid workplaces have better
technology.
So that's first and foremost isI was able to continue that.
Secondly, people are reallystruggling with hybrid work, and
hybrid work does not have to behard work.
It simply means that managersand leaders need to see
(03:30):
everything that they do througha new lens and that's the hybrid
work lens and lead withintentionality.
So what I mean by that ishybrid work.
Just to take a step back,hybrid work means coming in a
few days a week into the officein person.
So you come in a few days aweek.
It could even be one day a week, it could be two days a week,
(03:51):
but at some point you are inperson with your colleagues.
The rest of the day is you workremotely.
So that's what we mean byhybrid work.
Secondly, we find that thehybrid work debate is over.
Secondly, we find that thehybrid work debate is over.
So you know, the data is in andI can share a few data points
(04:12):
that really resonated with me.
But 62% of US companies and 75%of Fortune 100 now allow some
degree of remote work.
Some days in the office, somedays working from home.
Just six out of 158 US CEOsthis report's from the
conference board said they wouldprioritize bringing workers
back full-time Just six out ofthe 158.
(04:33):
And some of my favorites herealso include 97 of the Fortune
100's best places to work offerhybrid work.
That just shows how you knowhow engagement is tied to
economic return, and 63% of highrevenue growth companies
embrace hybrid work.
So all of that to say, let'sjust put the debate to rest.
(04:56):
Hybrid work is here to stay.
It not only increases employeeengagement, but it also delivers
high economic return.
So setting the stage there.
The second piece to this iswhat I said at the beginning is
there are really five categoriesnow where leaders can focus
their attention to make hybridwork work.
And it's funny because the moreI talk to people, the more I
(05:19):
realize it really is just goingback to the basics, but seeing
it through the hybrid work lens.
John Broer (05:31):
Before we get into the five categories, because I
and we've had episodes where wehave talked about sort of the
unusual nature that some few,thankfully executives or
business leaders are taking whenthey are mandating a return to
the office.
I agree with you, we are intotal agreement.
This is no longer an anomaly,it is a reality.
Covid, if it did anything, itsort of codified it and said
(05:52):
we've been doing this, wehaven't been doing it more
formally, and now it's here.
But I have a quick question whyare some leaders so insistent
on coming back?
What's your, what's yourphilosophy on that?
I'm amazed by the, thedetermination by some, and
they're very vocal, but somehave been very vocal about it.
(06:14):
What's your, what's yourassessment of that?
Jenny Moebius (06:16):
I I think again it's going back to the basics
it's a trust issue.
Um, a lot of leaders, you know,really prefer, you know, having
people right next to them,seeing them work, in order to
trust that they're doing theirwork, and I'll dive into this a
little later.
But you know, it's best to haveoutcome-based performance and
(06:38):
not location-based performance.
John Broer (06:40):
Yes, yes.
Jenny Moebius (06:41):
Because there's so many benefits to allowing
people to have flexibility intheir lives that you know you
could pretty easily see ifthey're not doing their jobs, no
matter where they're workingfrom if they're not meeting
their goals.
John Broer (06:56):
Well, I'm sorry.
So we talk about an oldframework and a new framework.
That seems like a very oldframework and we had Dr Todd do
it on a couple of years ago andhe talked about we have to start
managing by outcome and notobservation, just like you said.
Ok, thank you for that.
Jenny Moebius (07:11):
Correct.
Yeah, yeah, it's.
It is interesting.
It's almost like COVID justkind of put us all in a panic
and we forgot the basics ofmanaging people.
It's, it's not that that haschanged, it's just that we're
not working in the same place.
It really is that simple, yeah.
John Broer (07:31):
Okay, can I ask you?
Sara Best (07:32):
a question, john.
You talked about what about theleaders who seem stuck in this
mindset of we got to be inperson.
What do you think has helpedshift, jenny, for those leaders
who've been able to open uptheir minds and go?
You know, this is a better wayto do it.
What work to help themunderstand this?
Jenny Moebius (07:52):
employee engagement is one of them.
The leaders that measure, youknow, employee NPS or employee
net promoter score.
It's the leaders that listen totheir teams and their employees
.
And then it's the productivitylevels.
It's the economic return.
That's what's, you know,catching people's eyes.
Oh, we can offer flexibilityand we can still be you
(08:18):
know-performing business.
Sara Best (08:20):
Right Got it.
John Broer (08:21):
Thank you for that little detour.
Let's talk now about those fivecategories.
Jenny Moebius (08:27):
Sure, sure.
So I'm all about right now thatthe debate is over how do we do
it right and what do we reallyneed to focus on?
So the first one is policy, andmaybe I should stop at each one
so that we can have a littleconversation about it, versus
just like listing them out.
So the very important first oneis policy.
(08:49):
So we talked about this alreadyis how do we engage our
employees to build the policytogether?
And then how do we empowerteams to actually decide on the
policy?
So Gallup found that 46% ofemployees say they're more
engaged when their work teamdecides on the hybrid work
policy together.
(09:11):
And that is what is actuallycausing more joy in
organizations.
It's, you know, causing peopleto leave less because they're
more joyful at work.
And really it just takes onework from home day to reduce
attrition.
So one team level agreementssuper important and two, just
(09:34):
having some kind of hybrid workis already reducing attrition
and bringing in more talent.
Right, because you can.
When you have hybrid work,people's commutes become less of
a burden.
If they say, oh, I just need tocome in one or two days a week,
I can manage that.
I can manage my family schedulearound one or two days a week.
(09:54):
I can manage my family schedulearound one or two days a week.
So again, like increased joy,increased retention, less
attrition and something Ihaven't mentioned yet is
actually more diversity.
So Allstate adopted this modelhad everything on the team level
and they saw job applicationssoar 23% and 33% increase among
(10:21):
women and people of color.
So offering that flexibilityalso brings in more diverse
candidates, so very important.
John Broer (10:24):
Well, the other word that came to my mind was
inclusion, meaning we areincluding you, you are helping
to shape the policy.
Being asked that question orgiven that opportunity to be
able to say I'm going toinfluence and speak into this
policy, that's huge.
That is addressing what theemerging workforce, which is,
you know, evolving, wants,that's great.
(10:46):
Okay, so policy All right,makes total sense.
Jenny Moebius (10:48):
Yep.
So policy is the first one.
Any other questions, Sarah?
Any other questions, Sarah?
Sara Best (10:53):
No, I was just going to comment that Aaron Dignan
spoke directly to this idea of,you know, inclusive debate and
discussion internally and thenadoption of policies only when
people agree, and that they canchallenge, and they've actually
developed a whole system andsoftware.
He's the author, by the way,for our listeners, of Brave New
(11:15):
Work.
We talk about him often.
We met him at Optima 20, Idon't know, 2021.
John Broer (11:22):
Yeah, he was on the program.
I'll put that in the show notes.
I mean, he was on there tooGood.
Jenny Moebius (11:27):
Okay, yeah, no, definitely, and we do that at
Sketa as well.
The marketing team comes inWednesday and Thursday.
That at skedda as well.
The the marketing team comes inwednesday and thursday, and
that was an agreement among theteam members.
Um, the sales team comes intuesday and thursday.
And maybe something I haven'tmentioned is that importance of
overlap, importance of havingteams in at the same time so
(11:49):
that you're not just showing upto work and, uh, nobody's there,
right, right.
And then you have, you know,incredible commute regret and
you just become more unhappy inyour work.
And so this is an opportunityto share a little bit more about
Sketa, where you can see allyour coworkers who are coming in
(12:10):
, where they're sitting, so thatyou know, oh, I'm not gonna
waste this day by coming intothe office, I'm going to have
these collaborative moments withmy peers because I know that
they're coming in.
So that's actually a good segueinto the second category, which
is office design.
So something really importantto think about is how much
(12:33):
collaborative spaces are on therise.
Think about is how muchcollaborative spaces are on the
rise.
58% go into the office forconnection, 15% just for focus
work, and that's a study by CBRE.
So just kind of leaning intothe fact that it's not just
about having a bunch of desksanymore, individual desks or
private desks.
It's about creating spaceswhere people can get their best
(12:56):
work done.
So I love Gensler.
I don't know if you know JanetPogue McLaurin.
She was on my podcast,definitely one of my favorites.
Gensler ran a survey with14,000 workers and found that
four categories of spaces wereessential Individual work,
creative group work, reflectingand restoring and connecting and
(13:20):
recharging and we're used toindividual work sure, we're used
to creative group work, we havemeeting rooms, but this
reflecting and restoring and theconnecting and recharging
really resonated with me.
Something that I reallyrecommend doing is forming
neighborhoods for these exactreasons.
(13:40):
So, for instance, you couldhave a neighborhood in your
office that's just for quietwork and you can have a
neighborhood in your officethat's just for louder work,
sales folks, bdrs, sdrs that'ssomething that's missing from
remote work is having peoplelisten to the conversations like
how are you marketing this, howare you selling this?
(14:01):
I would say probably heavy onsales and marketing.
For the louder areas, we needto dig into data, we need to
have places for focus work, andso the way that we design our
offices is changing and again,the first place to start is
(14:24):
listening to your employees.
Sara Best (14:25):
What do you?
Jenny Moebius (14:25):
need, right, yeah .
And what's going to make thisworkplace experience, this new
way of working, most productivefor you?
John Broer (14:34):
You know, Jenny, what strikes me also is
obviously all of our backgroundsin behavioral analytics.
We all know that there are someof us that have a desire the
three of us, as a matter of factfor community connecting.
But we also do need that quiet,reflective time.
There is a huge company here inColumbus, well-known, and they
built this amazing well-knownand they built this amazing.
(14:55):
This was pre-COVID, thisexpansive, amazing campus, but
there were no spaces to go andwork alone.
I mean, there were a few andfar between, but it was all this
open concept when that was likesuper popular and you just knew
that that was going to be amistake.
You can't have just.
You can't go from all isolatedindividual desks to no holds
(15:19):
barred, no walls, no, nothingwhatsoever.
You have to have that and Ilove that combination that makes
so much sense.
Thanks for that.
I mean to me I'm envisioningworkplaces where I've worked and
how one in particular actuallywas in Toledo, sarah.
They had all that and I'm notsure that they did it
(15:40):
intentionally, but you had thosedifferent neighborhoods.
I love that.
I love that metaphor.
Sara Best (15:46):
I'm thinking of a previous employer of mine that,
well before COVID, designedseveral floors within a multiple
story building, just that waythat you described.
I think the four areas of focuswere represented and people
were like I don't really knowwhat to do with this.
It was bumpy at first and now Ithink all their floors are that
(16:07):
way.
But what I thought about is forthe people that you know,
they're more private andintrospective, they like to have
their space, or the ones wholike to, you know, mark their
territory with their picturesand what not to take us off
track, jenny.
But what about those people wholike?
How do we shift the mindset?
Like I don't have, I don'tclaim this one space and have
(16:28):
all my stuff, like my drawer ofsnacks and my pictures, and you
know it's mobile.
How did you?
How do people deal with that?
Jenny Moebius (16:36):
Sure.
So the first thing is to have aworkplace management platform
where you can book your desk,right?
Because once you have that, sowe obviously use Sketa at Sketa
and I get on the train onWednesday and I go onto my app
and I say, oh, this desk is openand it's next to other
marketers, right, we have moreof a marketing neighborhood than
(16:59):
a loud versus quiet, and so Ican book my desk and that way,
when I come into the office Ifeel very comfortable knowing
that that's my space for the day.
I don't have to share it.
I can bring a picture of myfamily.
I could put it on the desk forthe day.
Obviously, it's still importantto have shared snacks in an
office, don't forget about yoursnacks?
John Broer (17:19):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Jenny Moebius (17:21):
So you know, we have a snack.
We still have like snackdrawers and lots of things for
people to feel most comfortable.
But it really is about beingable to book something in
advance to have that level ofcomfort when you come into the
office, especially if you'reused to more permanent seating.
Sara Best (17:39):
So great, that is a great solution.
Jenny Moebius (17:41):
The third category and you know, near and
dear to all of our hearts ishaving the right tech stack to
bridge the physical and remoteworlds.
I really this one is reallyimportant.
I know people, you know, saythey lose their productivity
because of tech that doesn'twork right, and people are
(18:02):
miscommunicating and notcommunicating because hybrid
work is so much harder from acommunication perspective.
So what I recommend is havingwell, first is talking to your
employees, seeing what they need, but, especially if you're
globally dispersed, like mostcompanies are today, to bring in
the right talent is having asystem of expectations so you
(18:26):
know what's expected of you whenyou come to the office, whether
you're in the office orremotely.
For instance, are you expectedto be on chat, slack Teams or
Google Chat, you know?
Are you expected to be on thereall day?
Right, what are theexpectations for response times
(18:46):
and how do you best use thatwith your global teams?
And I think it's superimportant and also going back to
the basics and simplicity.
So I'll give you an example.
I had an employee start and I'lltalk about this a little later
too, but in the Gen Z, a Gen Zemployee and poor Gen Z right,
(19:07):
they were in college duringCOVID.
They didn't have a ton ofmentors, they didn't have a ton
of in-person interaction, theydidn't have internships right,
they were just a lot was takenfrom Gen Z and I just assumed
that people knew right that theyhad to be online when they
worked from home between certainhours and I just assumed that
they knew that response timeshould be about an hour.
(19:28):
You know, give or take forremote communication.
This person was kind of allover the place and I was.
Just I started, so here's a tipright.
Just just I started, so here's,here's a tip Right.
I felt like I was becoming alittle bit of a boss hole
because I was assuming that thisperson wasn't working hard and
I was falling victim to what wetalked about at the beginning,
(19:51):
which is, I'm used to a Mondaythrough Friday, nine to five.
That's how I grew up in thework world.
And so I started having reallyfalse assumptions about this
person.
When I took a step back Ichecked myself and I realized I
have to set expectations forthese people.
I have to teach them how towork in this new world of work
(20:13):
so that those assumptions don'texist and so we can kind of nip
them in the bud.
So that was a lesson learnedfor me as a manager of Gen Z in
the hybrid world is, from dayone have those expectations set.
I actually have them at the endof every weekly meeting.
I just have them living there.
It's hybrid work expectations,so that nobody has any questions
(20:35):
about what's expected of them.
Pure gold, well, thank you, butit really is like what we've
always been doing, just notthrough the hybrid work lens.
Sara Best (20:44):
Right.
Jenny Moebius (20:45):
And that's why I kind of emphasize intentionality
so much, because, yes, you dohave to change the way you
manage because of this lens.
One other thing so loom isreally important.
So I'm not sure if you'refamiliar with Loom, but it's
basically a mechanism to recordyour face with the work that
(21:07):
you've been doing and in orderto share it out with people who
you may not be overlapping hourswith in your workday.
So one of my favorite thingsthat we do at Skedda is you
finish a day of work.
You can't communicate with yourEMEA APAC people at the moment.
So what do you do?
You sit down, you record a loomof all that's been done five
(21:31):
minute loom.
You share your screen with yourface and then when they wake up
on their day, they can getstarted on where you finished
off.
And again, same with remotework and you know not seeing
people every day If they canwake up and feel prepared for
their day by just simplyrecording something for them,
that's another way that you canbridge the virtual and the
(21:53):
physical gap and really takesfive minutes.
John Broer (21:59):
See what I mean Very practical tips to help you
understand how do we manage theidea of a virtual or remote or
hybrid workforce.
Go into the show notes and youwill see a link to part two of
that episode with Jenny Mobius.
Great stuff and super helpfulfor our organizations that are
giving this some serious thought.
(22:20):
See you soon.
Hey everybody out there in The Bossh ole
Transformation Nation, this isyour host, John Broer, welcoming
you to this episode of TheBossh ole Chronicles.
And this is the Tuesday afterLabor Day 2025.
And I decided over the weekendbecause we are hearing so much
feedback and continued inputfrom clients and other
(00:22):
organizations about thechallenges with the remote
workforce or hybrid work.
And I remembered a little overa year ago we had Jenny Moebius
in the studio and we have awonderful two-part episode with
her.
She is the Senior VicePresident and Head of Marketing
at SKEDDA and also the host ofthe Heroes of Hybrid Work
(00:45):
podcast, and that was really thefocus of our interview with her
last year.
So I thought you know what wegot to bring this back as a
flashback because Jenny'sinsights, her tools, her
methodology, the informationprovided in these two episodes
are absolutely amazing.
So I thought, hey, great timeof year to reintroduce you to
(01:07):
Jenny Mobius, let's jump in.
The Boss Hole Chronicles arebrought to you by Real Good
Ventures, a talent optimizationfirm helping organizations
diagnose their most criticalpeople and execution issues with
world-class analytics.
Make sure to check out all theresources in the show notes and
be sure to follow us and shareyour feedback.
(01:29):
Enjoy today's episode.
Well, jenny, it is so good tohave you on the Boss Hole
Chronicles.
Welcome.
Jenny Moebius (01:39):
Pleasure to be here.
John and Sara Just excited toreconnect with you and share
what I've been up to since I wasat PI.
John Broer (01:47):
Our audience knows from the intro that we go back a
few years.
Our introduction to you camebased on your days with PI, but
you have been as it is nosurprise to us doing remarkable
work out there relative to theworld of work and what hybrid
(02:07):
means.
And, of course, in addition toall the wonderful things that
Skedda does, your creation ofthe Heroes of Hybrid podcast, I
think, is really relevant.
When I started to see theepisodes and listen to the
episodes that were popping up onLinkedIn, I said, oh gosh, not
only is it a good excuse toreconnect with Jenny, because
she's such an amazing individual, but our Boss Hole
(02:30):
Transformation Nation listenersneed to hear this.
So let's just kick off withyour inspiration behind the
podcast Heroes of Hybrid and whyit's so critical now.
Jenny Moebius (02:41):
Absolutely so.
Something I haven't mentionedto you before is, you know,
after PI, I really wanted tocontinue my own passion of
helping people in their ownworkplaces.
Right, we spend more time atwork than we do with our own
families, and I knew at Sketathat I could continue that
mission for myself how to makeworkplaces better.
At Sketa, there was a uniqueposition to really lean into
(03:05):
hybrid work, obviously, becausethat's what we help Our software
helps with, you know, helpinghybrid workplaces have better
technology.
So that's first and foremost isI was able to continue that.
Secondly, people are reallystruggling with hybrid work, and
hybrid work does not have to behard work.
It simply means that managersand leaders need to see
(03:30):
everything that they do througha new lens and that's the hybrid
work lens and lead withintentionality.
So what I mean by that ishybrid work.
Just to take a step back,hybrid work means coming in a
few days a week into the officein person.
So you come in a few days aweek.
It could even be one day a week, it could be two days a week,
(03:51):
but at some point you are inperson with your colleagues.
The rest of the day is you workremotely.
So that's what we mean byhybrid work.
Secondly, we find that thehybrid work debate is over.
Secondly, we find that thehybrid work debate is over.
So you know, the data is in andI can share a few data points
(04:12):
that really resonated with me.
But 62% of US companies and 75%of Fortune 100 now allow some
degree of remote work.
Some days in the office, somedays working from home.
Just six out of 158 US CEOsthis report's from the
conference board said they wouldprioritize bringing workers
back full-time Just six out ofthe 158.
(04:33):
And some of my favorites herealso include 97 of the Fortune
100's best places to work offerhybrid work.
That just shows how you knowhow engagement is tied to
economic return, and 63% of highrevenue growth companies
embrace hybrid work.
So all of that to say, let'sjust put the debate to rest.
(04:56):
Hybrid work is here to stay.
It not only increases employeeengagement, but it also delivers
high economic return.
So setting the stage there.
The second piece to this iswhat I said at the beginning is
there are really five categoriesnow where leaders can focus
their attention to make hybridwork work.
And it's funny because the moreI talk to people, the more I
(05:19):
realize it really is just goingback to the basics, but seeing
it through the hybrid work lens.
John Broer (05:31):
Before we get into the five categories, because I
and we've had episodes where wehave talked about sort of the
unusual nature that some few,thankfully executives or
business leaders are taking whenthey are mandating a return to
the office.
I agree with you, we are intotal agreement.
This is no longer an anomaly,it is a reality.
Covid, if it did anything, itsort of codified it and said
(05:52):
we've been doing this, wehaven't been doing it more
formally, and now it's here.
But I have a quick question whyare some leaders so insistent
on coming back?
What's your, what's yourphilosophy on that?
I'm amazed by the, thedetermination by some, and
they're very vocal, but somehave been very vocal about it.
(06:14):
What's your, what's yourassessment of that?
Jenny Moebius (06:16):
I I think again it's going back to the basics
it's a trust issue.
Um, a lot of leaders, you know,really prefer, you know, having
people right next to them,seeing them work, in order to
trust that they're doing theirwork, and I'll dive into this a
little later.
But you know, it's best to haveoutcome-based performance and
(06:38):
not location-based performance.
John Broer (06:40):
Yes, yes.
Jenny Moebius (06:41):
Because there's so many benefits to allowing
people to have flexibility intheir lives that you know you
could pretty easily see ifthey're not doing their jobs, no
matter where they're workingfrom if they're not meeting
their goals.
John Broer (06:56):
Well, I'm sorry.
So we talk about an oldframework and a new framework.
That seems like a very oldframework and we had Dr Todd do
it on a couple of years ago andhe talked about we have to start
managing by outcome and notobservation, just like you said.
Ok, thank you for that.
Jenny Moebius (07:11):
Correct.
Yeah, yeah, it's.
It is interesting.
It's almost like COVID justkind of put us all in a panic
and we forgot the basics ofmanaging people.
It's, it's not that that haschanged, it's just that we're
not working in the same place.
It really is that simple, yeah.
John Broer (07:31):
Okay, can I ask you?
Sara Best (07:32):
a question, john.
You talked about what about theleaders who seem stuck in this
mindset of we got to be inperson.
What do you think has helpedshift, jenny, for those leaders
who've been able to open uptheir minds and go?
You know, this is a better wayto do it.
What work to help themunderstand this?
Jenny Moebius (07:52):
employee engagement is one of them.
The leaders that measure, youknow, employee NPS or employee
net promoter score.
It's the leaders that listen totheir teams and their employees
.
And then it's the productivitylevels.
It's the economic return.
That's what's, you know,catching people's eyes.
Oh, we can offer flexibilityand we can still be you
(08:18):
know-performing business.
Sara Best (08:20):
Right Got it.
John Broer (08:21):
Thank you for that little detour.
Let's talk now about those fivecategories.
Jenny Moebius (08:27):
Sure, sure.
So I'm all about right now thatthe debate is over how do we do
it right and what do we reallyneed to focus on?
So the first one is policy, andmaybe I should stop at each one
so that we can have a littleconversation about it, versus
just like listing them out.
So the very important first oneis policy.
(08:49):
So we talked about this alreadyis how do we engage our
employees to build the policytogether?
And then how do we empowerteams to actually decide on the
policy?
So Gallup found that 46% ofemployees say they're more
engaged when their work teamdecides on the hybrid work
policy together.
(09:11):
And that is what is actuallycausing more joy in
organizations.
It's, you know, causing peopleto leave less because they're
more joyful at work.
And really it just takes onework from home day to reduce
attrition.
So one team level agreementssuper important and two, just
(09:34):
having some kind of hybrid workis already reducing attrition
and bringing in more talent.
Right, because you can.
When you have hybrid work,people's commutes become less of
a burden.
If they say, oh, I just need tocome in one or two days a week,
I can manage that.
I can manage my family schedulearound one or two days a week.
(09:54):
I can manage my family schedulearound one or two days a week.
So again, like increased joy,increased retention, less
attrition and something Ihaven't mentioned yet is
actually more diversity.
So Allstate adopted this modelhad everything on the team level
and they saw job applicationssoar 23% and 33% increase among
(10:21):
women and people of color.
So offering that flexibilityalso brings in more diverse
candidates, so very important.
John Broer (10:24):
Well, the other word that came to my mind was
inclusion, meaning we areincluding you, you are helping
to shape the policy.
Being asked that question orgiven that opportunity to be
able to say I'm going toinfluence and speak into this
policy, that's huge.
That is addressing what theemerging workforce, which is,
you know, evolving, wants,that's great.
(10:46):
Okay, so policy All right,makes total sense.
Jenny Moebius (10:48):
Yep.
So policy is the first one.
Any other questions, Sarah?
Any other questions, Sarah?
Sara Best (10:53):
No, I was just going to comment that Aaron Dignan
spoke directly to this idea of,you know, inclusive debate and
discussion internally and thenadoption of policies only when
people agree, and that they canchallenge, and they've actually
developed a whole system andsoftware.
He's the author, by the way,for our listeners, of Brave New
(11:15):
Work.
We talk about him often.
We met him at Optima 20, Idon't know, 2021.
John Broer (11:22):
Yeah, he was on the program.
I'll put that in the show notes.
I mean, he was on there tooGood.
Jenny Moebius (11:27):
Okay, yeah, no, definitely, and we do that at
Sketa as well.
The marketing team comes inWednesday and Thursday.
That at skedda as well.
The the marketing team comes inwednesday and thursday, and
that was an agreement among theteam members.
Um, the sales team comes intuesday and thursday.
And maybe something I haven'tmentioned is that importance of
overlap, importance of havingteams in at the same time so
(11:49):
that you're not just showing upto work and, uh, nobody's there,
right, right.
And then you have, you know,incredible commute regret and
you just become more unhappy inyour work.
And so this is an opportunityto share a little bit more about
Sketa, where you can see allyour coworkers who are coming in
(12:10):
, where they're sitting, so thatyou know, oh, I'm not gonna
waste this day by coming intothe office, I'm going to have
these collaborative moments withmy peers because I know that
they're coming in.
So that's actually a good segueinto the second category, which
is office design.
So something really importantto think about is how much
(12:33):
collaborative spaces are on therise.
Think about is how muchcollaborative spaces are on the
rise.
58% go into the office forconnection, 15% just for focus
work, and that's a study by CBRE.
So just kind of leaning intothe fact that it's not just
about having a bunch of desksanymore, individual desks or
private desks.
It's about creating spaceswhere people can get their best
(12:56):
work done.
So I love Gensler.
I don't know if you know JanetPogue McLaurin.
She was on my podcast,definitely one of my favorites.
Gensler ran a survey with14,000 workers and found that
four categories of spaces wereessential Individual work,
creative group work, reflectingand restoring and connecting and
(13:20):
recharging and we're used toindividual work sure, we're used
to creative group work, we havemeeting rooms, but this
reflecting and restoring and theconnecting and recharging
really resonated with me.
Something that I reallyrecommend doing is forming
neighborhoods for these exactreasons.
(13:40):
So, for instance, you couldhave a neighborhood in your
office that's just for quietwork and you can have a
neighborhood in your officethat's just for louder work,
sales folks, bdrs, sdrs that'ssomething that's missing from
remote work is having peoplelisten to the conversations like
how are you marketing this, howare you selling this?
(14:01):
I would say probably heavy onsales and marketing.
For the louder areas, we needto dig into data, we need to
have places for focus work, andso the way that we design our
offices is changing and again,the first place to start is
(14:24):
listening to your employees.
Sara Best (14:25):
What do you?
Jenny Moebius (14:25):
need, right, yeah .
And what's going to make thisworkplace experience, this new
way of working, most productivefor you?
John Broer (14:34):
You know, Jenny, what strikes me also is
obviously all of our backgroundsin behavioral analytics.
We all know that there are someof us that have a desire the
three of us, as a matter of factfor community connecting.
But we also do need that quiet,reflective time.
There is a huge company here inColumbus, well-known, and they
built this amazing well-knownand they built this amazing.
(14:55):
This was pre-COVID, thisexpansive, amazing campus, but
there were no spaces to go andwork alone.
I mean, there were a few andfar between, but it was all this
open concept when that was likesuper popular and you just knew
that that was going to be amistake.
You can't have just.
You can't go from all isolatedindividual desks to no holds
(15:19):
barred, no walls, no, nothingwhatsoever.
You have to have that and Ilove that combination that makes
so much sense.
Thanks for that.
I mean to me I'm envisioningworkplaces where I've worked and
how one in particular actuallywas in Toledo, sarah.
They had all that and I'm notsure that they did it
(15:40):
intentionally, but you had thosedifferent neighborhoods.
I love that.
I love that metaphor.
Sara Best (15:46):
I'm thinking of a previous employer of mine that,
well before COVID, designedseveral floors within a multiple
story building, just that waythat you described.
I think the four areas of focuswere represented and people
were like I don't really knowwhat to do with this.
It was bumpy at first and now Ithink all their floors are that
(16:07):
way.
But what I thought about is forthe people that you know,
they're more private andintrospective, they like to have
their space, or the ones wholike to, you know, mark their
territory with their picturesand what not to take us off
track, jenny.
But what about those people wholike?
How do we shift the mindset?
Like I don't have, I don'tclaim this one space and have
(16:28):
all my stuff, like my drawer ofsnacks and my pictures, and you
know it's mobile.
How did you?
How do people deal with that?
Jenny Moebius (16:36):
Sure.
So the first thing is to have aworkplace management platform
where you can book your desk,right?
Because once you have that, sowe obviously use Sketa at Sketa
and I get on the train onWednesday and I go onto my app
and I say, oh, this desk is openand it's next to other
marketers, right, we have moreof a marketing neighborhood than
(16:59):
a loud versus quiet, and so Ican book my desk and that way,
when I come into the office Ifeel very comfortable knowing
that that's my space for the day.
I don't have to share it.
I can bring a picture of myfamily.
I could put it on the desk forthe day.
Obviously, it's still importantto have shared snacks in an
office, don't forget about yoursnacks?
John Broer (17:19):
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
Jenny Moebius (17:21):
So you know, we have a snack.
We still have like snackdrawers and lots of things for
people to feel most comfortable.
But it really is about beingable to book something in
advance to have that level ofcomfort when you come into the
office, especially if you'reused to more permanent seating.
Sara Best (17:39):
So great, that is a great solution.
Jenny Moebius (17:41):
The third category and you know, near and
dear to all of our hearts ishaving the right tech stack to
bridge the physical and remoteworlds.
I really this one is reallyimportant.
I know people, you know, saythey lose their productivity
because of tech that doesn'twork right, and people are
(18:02):
miscommunicating and notcommunicating because hybrid
work is so much harder from acommunication perspective.
So what I recommend is havingwell, first is talking to your
employees, seeing what they need, but, especially if you're
globally dispersed, like mostcompanies are today, to bring in
the right talent is having asystem of expectations so you
(18:26):
know what's expected of you whenyou come to the office, whether
you're in the office orremotely.
For instance, are you expectedto be on chat, slack Teams or
Google Chat, you know?
Are you expected to be on thereall day?
Right, what are theexpectations for response times
(18:46):
and how do you best use thatwith your global teams?
And I think it's superimportant and also going back to
the basics and simplicity.
So I'll give you an example.
I had an employee start and I'lltalk about this a little later
too, but in the Gen Z, a Gen Zemployee and poor Gen Z right,
(19:07):
they were in college duringCOVID.
They didn't have a ton ofmentors, they didn't have a ton
of in-person interaction, theydidn't have internships right,
they were just a lot was takenfrom Gen Z and I just assumed
that people knew right that theyhad to be online when they
worked from home between certainhours and I just assumed that
they knew that response timeshould be about an hour.
(19:28):
You know, give or take forremote communication.
This person was kind of allover the place and I was.
Just I started, so here's a tipright.
Just just I started, so here's,here's a tip Right.
I felt like I was becoming alittle bit of a boss hole
because I was assuming that thisperson wasn't working hard and
I was falling victim to what wetalked about at the beginning,
(19:51):
which is, I'm used to a Mondaythrough Friday, nine to five.
That's how I grew up in thework world.
And so I started having reallyfalse assumptions about this
person.
When I took a step back Ichecked myself and I realized I
have to set expectations forthese people.
I have to teach them how towork in this new world of work
(20:13):
so that those assumptions don'texist and so we can kind of nip
them in the bud.
So that was a lesson learnedfor me as a manager of Gen Z in
the hybrid world is, from dayone have those expectations set.
I actually have them at the endof every weekly meeting.
I just have them living there.
It's hybrid work expectations,so that nobody has any questions
(20:35):
about what's expected of them.
Pure gold, well, thank you, butit really is like what we've
always been doing, just notthrough the hybrid work lens.
Sara Best (20:44):
Right.
Jenny Moebius (20:45):
And that's why I kind of emphasize intentionality
so much, because, yes, you dohave to change the way you
manage because of this lens.
One other thing so loom isreally important.
So I'm not sure if you'refamiliar with Loom, but it's
basically a mechanism to recordyour face with the work that
(21:07):
you've been doing and in orderto share it out with people who
you may not be overlapping hourswith in your workday.
So one of my favorite thingsthat we do at Skedda is you
finish a day of work.
You can't communicate with yourEMEA APAC people at the moment.
So what do you do?
You sit down, you record a loomof all that's been done five
(21:31):
minute loom.
You share your screen with yourface and then when they wake up
on their day, they can getstarted on where you finished
off.
And again, same with remotework and you know not seeing
people every day If they canwake up and feel prepared for
their day by just simplyrecording something for them,
that's another way that you canbridge the virtual and the
(21:53):
physical gap and really takesfive minutes.
John Broer (21:59):
See what I mean Very practical tips to help you
understand how do we manage theidea of a virtual or remote or
hybrid workforce.
Go into the show notes and youwill see a link to part two of
that episode with Jenny Mobius.
Great stuff and super helpfulfor our organizations that are
giving this some serious thought.
(22:20):
See you soon.
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