July 29, 2025 • 28 mins
What if the secret to transforming toxic workplaces wasn't just about removing bad bosses, but teaching good ones how to balance caring deeply with challenging directly? In this profound flashback conversation with Kim Scott, author of "Radical Candor" and "Just Work", we explore the frameworks that can revolutionize workplace dynamics and eliminate the harm caused by poor management.
- Click HERE for Part 2 of our interview with Kim Scott
- Click HERE for Kim's book Radical Respect
- Click HERE for Kim's book Just Work
- Click HERE for Kim's book Radical Candor
- Click HERE for Kim's article with Dr. Amy Edmondson
- Click HERE for Kim's website
- Click HERE for Kim's LinkedIn page
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Broer (00:00):
Hey everybody out there in The Bossh ole
Transformation Nation, this isyour host, John Broer, bringing
to you another installment of aTBC flashback.
I've been going back into thearchives of The Bossh ole
Chronicles and realizing that wehave some amazing episodes and
(00:26):
the themes and the topics ofthose episodes are absolutely
timeless, and I'm going to bringyou one of those today.
This goes back to March of 2023, when Kim Scott came on the
program.
It was actually a two-partepisode and I'll put the link to
part two in the show notes, butthis was a discussion around
her book, Radical Candor, andshe has since published a new
(00:50):
book called Radical Respect andthe more work we are doing with
managers and supervisors.
These themes continue to presentthemselves.
So I thought, man, we got tobring back this powerful message
from Kim Scott.
Let's jump in.
The Bossh ole Chronicles arebrought to you by Real Good
(01:14):
Ventures, a talent optimizationfirm helping organizations
diagnose their most criticalpeople and execution issues with
world-class analytics.
Make sure to check out all theresources in the show notes and
be sure to follow us and shareyour feedback.
Enjoy today's episode.
Sara Best (01:35):
Kim, let me welcome you to the podcast.
Hello and thank you for beinghere.
Kim Scott (01:38):
Thank you so much.
I love what you all are doingand I think our missions are
very aligned.
Sara Best (01:45):
I would agree and, as we were talking before we hit
record today, it's just so very,very clear that we wish to make
the influence and the impact ofmanagers much more positive,
and that it's not managers aremeant to be bad people or they
set out to cause harm or be bossholes.
It's that sometimes they needtools and they need education,
(02:05):
and we're going to talk a littlebit about how you've created
some opportunity, sharing sometechniques to do that.
But, kim, before we dive in,let me just share with our
audience a little bit about yourbackground.
If I can Sure, you're theauthor, most recently in March
of 21,.
The author of your new bookcalled Just Work in March of 21,
.
The author of your new bookcalled Just Work how to Root Out
Bias, prejudice, prejudice andBullying to Build a Kick-Ass
(02:28):
Culture of Inclusivity andRadical Candor.
We'll definitely be digging inon that.
I think that the upshot of thatis it's kind of like a playbook
for being a kick-ass bossversus a boss hole, so we'll
talk more Radical candor is yes,boss versus a boss hole.
So we'll talk more, yeah.
Radical candor is yes, yeah,yeah.
And so you also have been theCEO, coach, coach CEOs at
(02:49):
Dropbox Qualtrics.
Kim Scott (02:51):
Twitter, not the current Twitter.
I'm going to just interject.
Sara Best (03:00):
Okay, Thank you.
The previous Twitter, Othertech companies, multiple other
tech companies.
You've lived and worked allover the world.
You're a member of the facultyat Apple.
You were a member or are youcurrently a member?
Kim Scott (03:07):
I was.
I worked at Apple University,which is Apple's executive ed
group.
Sara Best (03:12):
You worked at AdSense , for YouTube, DoubleClick and
even along with teams at Google.
Prior to that, you managed apediatric clinic in Kosovo and
started a diamond cuttingfactory in Moscow Is that right?
Kim Scott (03:25):
Yes, that is right, that is right.
That is resonating verystrangely these days.
Sara Best (03:31):
I bet, and you also.
You have a family, you live onthe West Coast and you have the
previous book, too, that we'llalso talk about.
You mentioned Radical Candor.
Can we start talking firstabout Radical Candor, Kim?
Can we dig in there?
Sure, absolutely.
I think that the foreword therebecome a great boss through
straightforward, deeply humanlessons.
(03:53):
These are techniques that arefounded on two guiding
principles, and the principlesreally struck me between the
eyes the first time I read yourbook.
Caring personally andchallenging directly, I just
want to say that radical candoris a term, that a phrase that's
thrown out often.
You know people maybe haven'tread the book, or they have, but
the how-to is very elusive.
(04:15):
What prompted you to put pen topaper and provide this
guidebook for managers?
Tell us about that.
Kim Scott (04:22):
Yeah, I mean, our mission at Radical Candor is to
rid the world of bad bosses, andit's my belief that most bosses
are not actually bad people,but they've had no training.
There was a saying when I firstgot to Silicon Valley that
management is neither taught norvalued, and that was the
recipes for bad management,right, and I think that there's
(04:46):
a bunch of problems.
Part of it is that you know youlearn how to be a salesperson,
or you learn how to be anengineer, or you learn how to be
a lawyer, and there's actuallynot a coherent curriculum that
teaches you how to be a manager,and so that's part of the
problem.
The other part of the problemis that managers are often given
too much power, right, and sopower corrupts, and a little,
(05:12):
you know, absolute powercorrupts absolutely, and a
little power corrupts a lot.
That's kind of how it goes, andso I think probably I started
thinking about radical candorwhen I was I had started a
software company and I walkedinto the office and opened up my
computer and 10 people hademailed me.
(05:32):
The same article about peoplewould how people would rather
have a boss who's who's anasshole but really competent
than one who's really nice butincompetent, and I thought are
they sending me this becausethey think I'm incompetent or
because they think I'm anasshole?
Surely those are not my twochoices, and that was.
You know, I didn't learnanything about management at
business school, but I did learnabout the two by two framework
(05:55):
and that was sort of how Istarted thinking myself out of
this.
And so radical candor is aboutcaring personally and
challenging directly at the sametime.
And when you can do both at thesame time, that's radical
candor.
But all of us fail on one ofthese dimensions or another.
So when you challenge directlybut you fail to show that you
care personally, that I callobnoxious aggression and
(06:18):
actually in earlier versions ofthe book, in drafts of the book,
I called that asshole orbosshole or whatever.
But I stopped doing that.
And I stopped doing it for areally important reason because
I want people to use this two bytwo not as another Myers-Briggs
personality test right, don'tstart writing names in boxes but
(06:40):
rather to avoid making mistakes, because these are mistakes
that all of us, whether we'rethe boss or not, make all the
time.
So that's obnoxious aggression.
Now, obnoxious aggression isproblematic because it hurts
people.
It's also problematic becauseit's inefficient.
When you act like a jerk, theother person goes into fight or
flight mode and they literallycan't hear what you're saying,
(07:01):
so you're wasting your breath.
And it's also problematic for amore subtle reason.
I don't know about you all, butwhen I realized that I've acted
like a jerk which I do I trynot to, but I do it's not my
instinct to go the right way oncare personally.
Instead, it's my instinct to gothe wrong way.
On challenge directly oh, itdoesn't matter, it's no big deal
(07:22):
, but it does matter and it is abig deal.
That's why I just said it, youknow.
And then I wind up in the worstplace of all manipulative
insincerity.
So, if obnoxious aggression isfront stabbing, manipulative
insincerity is backstabbing anduh and, and those are the kind
of behaviors that make aworkplace most toxic.
Like if we talk about what goeswrong about work, we're probably
(07:44):
talking about manipulativeinsincerity or obnoxious
aggression, because that's wherethe drama is.
But in my experience and I'd becurious to hear about what you
all think the vast majority ofpeople make the vast majority of
mistakes in this other quadrant, where they do remember to show
that they care personally, butthey're so worried about not
(08:05):
hurting someone's feelings thatthey fail to tell them something
they'd be better off knowing inthe long run.
And that's what I call ruinousempathy.
And so that's radical, what itis and what it isn't in a
nutshell.
And sometimes people you knowif you write a book about
feedback, you're going to get alot of it, and sometimes people
will tell me that people thatsomeone will charge into a
(08:26):
conference room and say, in thespirit of radical candor, and
then they'll proceed to act likea garden variety jerk, and that
is not the spirit of radical,that's the spirit of obnoxious
aggression.
John Broer (08:36):
So I just want to make that clear.
So I don't want you to get madat me, kim, and I know the
quadrants were not intended toput people into.
However, I couldn't read themand really get into your lessons
without thinking of people.
You know.
I thought, oh, that this personwas definitely demonstrating
(08:57):
manipulative insincerity.
However, we talk about tryingto help managers and supervisors
stay out of the bosshole zoneand to me, radical candor, that
is staying out of the bossholezone and the other three to some
degree.
That is the bosshole zone andnobody is born to be a bosshole.
We always emphasize that.
(09:19):
But sometimes circumstances toomuch power, too many direct
reports, no training they end upthere and they don't even
realize it.
But I love that.
You've given it a frameworkthat people can reflect on and
go oh my gosh, am I doing that?
And, kim, you've given peopleand everybody go to the show
notes because all of thisinformation will be in there.
(09:39):
You've given them a great wayto reflect and think about how
am I showing up with these folks?
And it's so practical.
Kim Scott (09:48):
Yeah, I really.
You know, I have to give.
There was a guy who worked forme at Google, daniel Rubin, and
he helped me edit the book andhe was he's a lot younger than I
am and he was full of radicalcandor for me and he kept
telling me I don't know what todo.
This makes sense, but I don'tknow what to do.
(10:09):
So to the extent that there arepractical tips.
We all owe Daniel Rubin a greatshout out of thanks.
John Broer (10:17):
No, that's great.
Sara Best (10:18):
Well, and Kim, you mentioned the software company
you started.
I was reading about somethingthat may have happened as a
precursor to starting yoursoftware company.
You had a boss hole encounter.
You write about it in your book.
Do you want to?
Can you share a little bitabout that experience?
John Broer (10:39):
Without any direct names, of course.
Kim Scott (10:41):
Yeah, because actually there's lots.
I'll tell you there's lots moreto the story than I had before
in the book.
But so I was working for thisguy who was really belittling.
In fact, you know, sometimesthat kind of behavior, it shows
up in your body.
I actually shrank half an inch,literally.
(11:02):
I went to the doctor.
She couldn't believe it.
She said well, you've got toquit this job.
But anyway, he said somethingincredibly rude about me in an
email to someone else andsomehow there was a BCC
situation and I wound up seeingthe email and went and I
confronted him about it and hesaid oh, just don't worry your
(11:25):
pretty little head about it.
And then later on he said Isaid you know, I feel like you
don't respect me.
And he said I don't feel likeyou respect me and my
superiority.
Basically, like it was reallybad that was.
It was a terrible situation.
Sara Best (11:45):
But I think it spurred the mission and just
confirmed your passion forcreating a workplace where
people can love each othercertainly.
Kim Scott (11:56):
Or at least care, at least show common human decency.
I mean, that was the, in fact,in this moment where there have
been so many layoffs, it was alayoff that that manager
conducted horribly that made merealize how important good
management is and how damagingbad management can be.
(12:16):
It was really it was, and thatwas kind of the moment where I
realized that management was not.
It was actually interesting andit mattered.
John Broer (12:23):
And we will be right back.
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John Broer (13:37):
Okay, let's get back to the program.
Well, kim, you can look back onthis now and you said there's a
lot more to this story.
Clearly you have recovered oryou've moved on.
However, I don't think thisshould be lost.
We've had people come on andshare their bosshole stories.
There is real misery.
(13:58):
I mean there is harm being doneto people emotionally,
physically, psychologically andjust because of people that
don't understand that they'rejust acting like bossholes or
they have no knowledge of how tobe better at what they're doing
.
Kim Scott (14:14):
Yeah, no, and the sort of more.
To the story part was I bumpedinto him like 10 years later and
I was really I'm laughing at it.
It's a funny story now.
It was not funny at the time Imean when you're shrinking half
and I'm only five feet tall, Idid not have half an inch to
give you know when the way thatyou're being treated is making
(14:39):
itself manifest in your body andI've talked to people who get
insomnia they break out in hives.
I mean, it really is, is trueharm there's?
There's also evidence thatshows that people are more
likely to have heart attacks,probably not in their twenties,
as I was at the time, but later.
So it's, it's a serious thing.
But I bumped into him 10 yearslater and we had a drink and I
(15:03):
realized, like in my mind, hewas the devil.
You know, I had, I had and thenI realized he wasn't he.
You know, he was even youngerthan I was at the time when he
was running this company.
He had no idea what he wasdoing and nobody to teach him
and he had too much power.
It's a bad combo, isn't it?
Yes, it is.
(15:24):
Ignorance and power are a badcombo, not good, not good.
Sara Best (15:29):
Well, and that's an example, there are others.
You lived through other, moreegregious violations, if you
will, that weren't just aboutyour spirit or your reputation.
They were about your livelihood, your womanhood.
(15:50):
All of that.
You write about that in JustWork.
I think that's where I'd loveto go next how we can recognize,
attack and eliminate workplaceinjustice.
So, at the end of the day, wereally are talking about
inequality, injustice, ignorance.
It could be a cover for all ofthat in some cases, but what
moved you in this direction?
Kim Scott (16:09):
to be even more specific about what we have to
shift in the workplace, yeahWell, as I said before, when you
write a book about feedback,you get a lot of it, and indeed
I did.
And by far the most valuablefeedback I got was when I was
giving a radical candor talk ata tech company in San Francisco
(16:31):
and the CEO of that company hadbeen a colleague of mine for the
better part of a decade, aperson who I like and respect
enormously and one of too fewBlack women CEOs in tech.
And when I finished giving thepresentation, she pulled me
aside and she said, kim, I'mexcited to roll out Radical
Candor, but I got to tell youit's much harder for me than it
(16:51):
is for you.
And she went on to explain tome that as soon as she would
offer anyone, even the mostgentle, compassionate criticism,
she would get slimed with theangry black woman stereotype.
And I knew this was true.
And it made me have fourrealizations at the same time.
The first was that I had notbeen the kind of colleague that
I imagined myself to be, that Iwant to be.
(17:13):
I hadn't even noticed theextent to which she had to show
up unfailingly cheerful andpleasant at every meeting we
were ever in together, eventhough she had what to be ticked
off about, as we all do at work.
The second thing I realized wasthat I had also been in denial
about the kinds of things thatwere happening to me as a woman
(17:33):
in the workplace, and I think,in part because I never wanted
to think of myself as a victim,but even less than wanting to
think of myself as a victim thatI want to think of myself as a
perpetrator.
And so I had been even deeperin denial about the ways in
which I had caused harm.
I hadn't intended to, but I hadexhibited sort of the bias,
(17:53):
prejudice and bullying that hadcaused people to slime my
colleague with that stereotype.
And then the fourth thing Irealized was that, as a leader,
I had failed to do what I neededto do to prevent these things
from happening on my watch, sure, as as almost all leaders do,
actually, and I thought that itwas that was kind of the moment
(18:19):
when I decided to write Radical,I mean just work, because I
needed to, I needed to come togrips with these things that I
had been sort of I had gonethrough so much of my career
kind of la, la, la, la, la la,pretending that things weren't
happening, and I want toacknowledge that in some
respects that was that wasuseful, because I think there
(18:41):
were some things that hadhappened that were so painful
and upsetting that I couldn'tcome to grips with them.
I'm not saying denial is like agreat way of coping, but I also
want to offer some compassionfor people who are sometimes in
denial about the things that arehappening to them.
So when you're the personharmed, you get to choose your
(19:05):
response, but if you're theupstander, you need to intervene
.
You don't get to be in denial.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
And if you're the leader.
Kim Scott (19:13):
You definitely don't get to be in denial.
Sara Best (19:15):
That's right and upstander.
And that whole idea jumped outto me when I read the book.
I have a big sticky note overhere.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
Oh, thank you.
Sara Best (19:24):
What a great segue.
I wanted to ask you how dopeople become upstanders?
Give us some practical adviceabout you know, joining in in a
way to be part of the solution,in a way that doesn't mean we
have to change who we are orwhat we do.
Give us your take on theupstander.
Kim Scott (19:43):
Yeah, I think you probably do have to change some
things, but you want to becomeyour best self, not your worst
self.
There you go, I'll put it thatway, well said.
And so I think that, in order tobe an upstander, first of all
remember what you're doing isyou're intervening when
something's going wrong.
You're not like going in to bethe Incredible Hulk or the hero.
(20:07):
You're not an Avenger, andyou're also not standing up for
someone who's weaker than you.
You're not casting other peoplein the role of damsel in
distress or you're not giving into the white savior complex or
something like that.
So what can you do when youwant to sort of create a better
(20:27):
workplace?
I think one of the problems isthat we often conflate bias,
prejudice and bullying as thoughthey're the same thing, and
they're actually three verydifferent things and we need
three very different responses.
So I'm going to offer you some,if I may, some really simple
definitions Overly simple, butuseful in the moment.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
We like simple.
Simple is good.
Kim Scott (20:48):
Yeah, simple is good.
There's more to it and I'm notsaying ignore all the more to it
, but let's sort of disambiguate.
Bias is not meaning it.
It's usually unconscious youdon't really mean what you're
saying Whereas prejudice ismeaning it.
It's a very consciously heldbelief and bullying.
There's no belief, conscious orunconscious, going on, you're
(21:08):
just being mean.
So not meaning.
It is bias, meaning it isprejudice.
Being mean is bullying, andthinking about how to respond
differently to each is useful.
So let's start with bias.
One of my favorite stories comesfrom Aileen Lee, who started
Cowboy BC.
She said she was going into ameeting with two colleagues who
(21:30):
are men and they sat down at abig, long conference table and
the other side started filing inand the first person sat across
from the guy to Aileen's left.
The next person came in and satacross from the guy to his left
and then everybody else filedon down the table, leaving
Aileen dangling by herself.
So how many times is that howbias shows up?
(21:51):
Just in, who decides to sitacross from whom?
Right, but Aileen wasundeterred.
She knew she had the expertisethat was going to win her team
the deal.
So she started talking and whenthe other side had questions,
they didn't direct them atAileen, they directed them at
her two colleagues who were menanother common way that bias
shows up.
It happened once, it happenedtwice, it happened a third time
(22:12):
and finally her colleagues stoodup and he said I think Aileen
and I should switch seats.
That was all he had to do tototally change the dynamic in
the room Because all of a suddeneverybody else realized what
they were doing.
They felt a little embarrassed,but they changed it, you know.
And so, yeah, that's what.
That's what an I statement does.
(22:33):
It kind of holds a mirror up tothe other side to understand,
to understand things the waythat you do.
It sort of calls people in.
But if it's prejudice, holdinga mirror up is not going to work
because the person's going togrin in the mirror, they're
going to like what they see.
You know that's the way theywant it.
So if it's prejudice, you needan it statement.
(22:55):
And then it statement canappeal to the law, it can appeal
to HR policy or it can appealto common sense.
So an example of that acolleague of mine was in a
hiring meeting and everyone whohad interviewed all the
colleagues agreed that.
I mean all the candidates agreedthat the most qualified person
(23:18):
for the role was a black womanwho had worn her hair out,
naturally, and the hiringmanager said, oh well, we can't
extend her an offer.
And my colleague said, well, whynot?
And the hiring manager and thisis at like a very well-known,
well-respected company recently,not in the 1960s and the hiring
(23:42):
manager said, well, I'm notgoing to put that hair in front
of the business and, believe me,nowhere in the job requirements
was there anything about hair.
This was a financial servicesfirm and so what was in its
statement that could be used?
It is illegal not to hiresomeone because of their hair,
(24:02):
which it was in that statethanks to the Crown Act or she
could have appealed to an HRpolicy.
It is an HR violation not tohire someone because of their
hair.
Or if she had lived in a placewhere she didn't, or worked in a
place where she didn't have thelaw or the HR policy in place,
she could have said it isridiculous not to hire the most
qualified kid because of theirhair.
John Broer (24:24):
Because of their hair.
Kim Scott (24:25):
Yeah, yeah.
So an it statement sort ofmakes it clear where the line is
between one person's freedom tobelieve whatever they want, but
they can't impose that beliefon other people.
Sara Best (24:35):
Oh, that's perfect.
Kim Scott (24:37):
Yeah, yeah, that's easier said than done.
You know I tell this anecdote,but I had to think a long time
to find it.
So we'll talk in a minute aboutwhat leaders can do to make
sure that this that upstandersstand up more often.
Now, in the case of bullying,you want a you statement.
You don't want an I statement,because an I statement sort of
invites someone in to understandthings from your perspective,
(25:00):
and that's not what you want todo in the case of a bully.
My daughter taught me this whenshe was in third grade.
She was getting bullied and Iwas encouraging her to say about
this kid, you know, oh, youknow, I feel sad when you blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
And she banged her fist on thetable and she said mom, they are
trying to make me feel sad.
Why would I tell them?
(25:21):
They succeeded.
That's a really good point.
And so so we talked aboutsaying you know, why are you
doing this or what's going onfor you here?
Sometimes, actually, I learnedthis from and there's a New York
Times article about adominatrix who taught people
(25:41):
this trick.
Just change the subject, ask aquestion about them Where'd you
get that shirt that all of asudden puts you in an active
stance.
You're no longer in thesubmissive role when you're
asking a question to someone youknow where'd you get that shirt
?
So try a you question or a youstatement, a you response.
If you think it's bullying.
There's a great organizationthat came up with the five Ds
(26:05):
for upstanders.
So how can you stand up tobullying or bias or prejudice?
Sometimes it's a directresponse, the I the, it, the you
statement, but other times youmight feel like you will get
there will be repercussions foryou.
And you know I wrote this bookin part in honor of upstanders.
(26:26):
I don't want to put upstandersin harm's way.
Some people have written in andsaid you know I upstood and I
got fired, so I want toacknowledge the power dynamics.
But there are other things youcan do to intervene that aren't
direct.
You can delegate, you can asksomeone else to intervene.
You can also delay.
(26:47):
You can check in with theperson later and see if they're
okay.
You can document what happened.
You don't want to post it onsocial media because the person
who owns that documentation isthe person who was harmed, not
you but that can be really,really helpful.
Or you can just distract.
(27:08):
There's a New York Times articleabout someone on the subway.
A man was following a woman andshe was afraid of him clearly
and things were starting to getphysical and he just threw his
potato chips all over the placeand it created a distraction and
allowed her to get away.
(27:28):
He didn't want to fight thisguy, but he also didn't want to
do nothing.
So those, the five Ds, I thinkgive people different ways to
think about intervening whenthey notice bias, prejudice or
bullying.
John Broer (27:41):
Kim, you said something that I think is really
helpful and a huge takeaway forour listeners, our managers and
supervisors out there.
Leaders have to be I don't knowif it's an oversensitivity they
just need to be aware andlistening and cognizant of bias,
prejudice or bullying that maybe taking place within the team.
(28:01):
And when you talk about leadersespecially, they really need to
be mindful of what's happeningin the workplace.
Correct?
Kim Scott (28:09):
Yes, they need to be mindful, but that's not enough.
They really need to be mindfulof what's happening in the
workplace, correct?
Yes, they need to be mindful,but that's not enough.
They also need to put systemsin place that are going to make
it more likely that peopleintervene.
John Broer (28:22):
Like I said, timeless wisdom from Kim Scott.
You can see why I wanted tobring this back up for a
flashback, so make sure you gointo the show notes and listen
to part two of that particularinterview with Kim Scott and
look at the resources that areavailable, and especially her
new book, radical Respect.
Keep checking back to the BossHole Chronicles.
(28:44):
We'll see you soon.
Hey everybody out there in The Bossh ole
Transformation Nation, this isyour host, John Broer, bringing
to you another installment of aTBC flashback.
I've been going back into thearchives of The Bossh ole
Chronicles and realizing that wehave some amazing episodes and
(00:26):
the themes and the topics ofthose episodes are absolutely
timeless, and I'm going to bringyou one of those today.
This goes back to March of 2023, when Kim Scott came on the
program.
It was actually a two-partepisode and I'll put the link to
part two in the show notes, butthis was a discussion around
her book, Radical Candor, andshe has since published a new
(00:50):
book called Radical Respect andthe more work we are doing with
managers and supervisors.
These themes continue to presentthemselves.
So I thought, man, we got tobring back this powerful message
from Kim Scott.
Let's jump in.
The Bossh ole Chronicles arebrought to you by Real Good
(01:14):
Ventures, a talent optimizationfirm helping organizations
diagnose their most criticalpeople and execution issues with
world-class analytics.
Make sure to check out all theresources in the show notes and
be sure to follow us and shareyour feedback.
Enjoy today's episode.
Sara Best (01:35):
Kim, let me welcome you to the podcast.
Hello and thank you for beinghere.
Kim Scott (01:38):
Thank you so much.
I love what you all are doingand I think our missions are
very aligned.
Sara Best (01:45):
I would agree and, as we were talking before we hit
record today, it's just so very,very clear that we wish to make
the influence and the impact ofmanagers much more positive,
and that it's not managers aremeant to be bad people or they
set out to cause harm or be bossholes.
It's that sometimes they needtools and they need education,
(02:05):
and we're going to talk a littlebit about how you've created
some opportunity, sharing sometechniques to do that.
But, kim, before we dive in,let me just share with our
audience a little bit about yourbackground.
If I can Sure, you're theauthor, most recently in March
of 21,.
The author of your new bookcalled Just Work in March of 21,
.
The author of your new bookcalled Just Work how to Root Out
Bias, prejudice, prejudice andBullying to Build a Kick-Ass
(02:28):
Culture of Inclusivity andRadical Candor.
We'll definitely be digging inon that.
I think that the upshot of thatis it's kind of like a playbook
for being a kick-ass bossversus a boss hole, so we'll
talk more Radical candor is yes,boss versus a boss hole.
So we'll talk more, yeah.
Radical candor is yes, yeah,yeah.
And so you also have been theCEO, coach, coach CEOs at
(02:49):
Dropbox Qualtrics.
Kim Scott (02:51):
Twitter, not the current Twitter.
I'm going to just interject.
Sara Best (03:00):
Okay, Thank you.
The previous Twitter, Othertech companies, multiple other
tech companies.
You've lived and worked allover the world.
You're a member of the facultyat Apple.
You were a member or are youcurrently a member?
Kim Scott (03:07):
I was.
I worked at Apple University,which is Apple's executive ed
group.
Sara Best (03:12):
You worked at AdSense , for YouTube, DoubleClick and
even along with teams at Google.
Prior to that, you managed apediatric clinic in Kosovo and
started a diamond cuttingfactory in Moscow Is that right?
Kim Scott (03:25):
Yes, that is right, that is right.
That is resonating verystrangely these days.
Sara Best (03:31):
I bet, and you also.
You have a family, you live onthe West Coast and you have the
previous book, too, that we'llalso talk about.
You mentioned Radical Candor.
Can we start talking firstabout Radical Candor, Kim?
Can we dig in there?
Sure, absolutely.
I think that the foreword therebecome a great boss through
straightforward, deeply humanlessons.
(03:53):
These are techniques that arefounded on two guiding
principles, and the principlesreally struck me between the
eyes the first time I read yourbook.
Caring personally andchallenging directly, I just
want to say that radical candoris a term, that a phrase that's
thrown out often.
You know people maybe haven'tread the book, or they have, but
the how-to is very elusive.
(04:15):
What prompted you to put pen topaper and provide this
guidebook for managers?
Tell us about that.
Kim Scott (04:22):
Yeah, I mean, our mission at Radical Candor is to
rid the world of bad bosses, andit's my belief that most bosses
are not actually bad people,but they've had no training.
There was a saying when I firstgot to Silicon Valley that
management is neither taught norvalued, and that was the
recipes for bad management,right, and I think that there's
(04:46):
a bunch of problems.
Part of it is that you know youlearn how to be a salesperson,
or you learn how to be anengineer, or you learn how to be
a lawyer, and there's actuallynot a coherent curriculum that
teaches you how to be a manager,and so that's part of the
problem.
The other part of the problemis that managers are often given
too much power, right, and sopower corrupts, and a little,
(05:12):
you know, absolute powercorrupts absolutely, and a
little power corrupts a lot.
That's kind of how it goes, andso I think probably I started
thinking about radical candorwhen I was I had started a
software company and I walkedinto the office and opened up my
computer and 10 people hademailed me.
(05:32):
The same article about peoplewould how people would rather
have a boss who's who's anasshole but really competent
than one who's really nice butincompetent, and I thought are
they sending me this becausethey think I'm incompetent or
because they think I'm anasshole?
Surely those are not my twochoices, and that was.
You know, I didn't learnanything about management at
business school, but I did learnabout the two by two framework
(05:55):
and that was sort of how Istarted thinking myself out of
this.
And so radical candor is aboutcaring personally and
challenging directly at the sametime.
And when you can do both at thesame time, that's radical
candor.
But all of us fail on one ofthese dimensions or another.
So when you challenge directlybut you fail to show that you
care personally, that I callobnoxious aggression and
(06:18):
actually in earlier versions ofthe book, in drafts of the book,
I called that asshole orbosshole or whatever.
But I stopped doing that.
And I stopped doing it for areally important reason because
I want people to use this two bytwo not as another Myers-Briggs
personality test right, don'tstart writing names in boxes but
(06:40):
rather to avoid making mistakes, because these are mistakes
that all of us, whether we'rethe boss or not, make all the
time.
So that's obnoxious aggression.
Now, obnoxious aggression isproblematic because it hurts
people.
It's also problematic becauseit's inefficient.
When you act like a jerk, theother person goes into fight or
flight mode and they literallycan't hear what you're saying,
(07:01):
so you're wasting your breath.
And it's also problematic for amore subtle reason.
I don't know about you all, butwhen I realized that I've acted
like a jerk which I do I trynot to, but I do it's not my
instinct to go the right way oncare personally.
Instead, it's my instinct to gothe wrong way.
On challenge directly oh, itdoesn't matter, it's no big deal
(07:22):
, but it does matter and it is abig deal.
That's why I just said it, youknow.
And then I wind up in the worstplace of all manipulative
insincerity.
So, if obnoxious aggression isfront stabbing, manipulative
insincerity is backstabbing anduh and, and those are the kind
of behaviors that make aworkplace most toxic.
Like if we talk about what goeswrong about work, we're probably
(07:44):
talking about manipulativeinsincerity or obnoxious
aggression, because that's wherethe drama is.
But in my experience and I'd becurious to hear about what you
all think the vast majority ofpeople make the vast majority of
mistakes in this other quadrant, where they do remember to show
that they care personally, butthey're so worried about not
(08:05):
hurting someone's feelings thatthey fail to tell them something
they'd be better off knowing inthe long run.
And that's what I call ruinousempathy.
And so that's radical, what itis and what it isn't in a
nutshell.
And sometimes people you knowif you write a book about
feedback, you're going to get alot of it, and sometimes people
will tell me that people thatsomeone will charge into a
(08:26):
conference room and say, in thespirit of radical candor, and
then they'll proceed to act likea garden variety jerk, and that
is not the spirit of radical,that's the spirit of obnoxious
aggression.
John Broer (08:36):
So I just want to make that clear.
So I don't want you to get madat me, kim, and I know the
quadrants were not intended toput people into.
However, I couldn't read themand really get into your lessons
without thinking of people.
You know.
I thought, oh, that this personwas definitely demonstrating
(08:57):
manipulative insincerity.
However, we talk about tryingto help managers and supervisors
stay out of the bosshole zoneand to me, radical candor, that
is staying out of the bossholezone and the other three to some
degree.
That is the bosshole zone andnobody is born to be a bosshole.
We always emphasize that.
(09:19):
But sometimes circumstances toomuch power, too many direct
reports, no training they end upthere and they don't even
realize it.
But I love that.
You've given it a frameworkthat people can reflect on and
go oh my gosh, am I doing that?
And, kim, you've given peopleand everybody go to the show
notes because all of thisinformation will be in there.
(09:39):
You've given them a great wayto reflect and think about how
am I showing up with these folks?
And it's so practical.
Kim Scott (09:48):
Yeah, I really.
You know, I have to give.
There was a guy who worked forme at Google, daniel Rubin, and
he helped me edit the book andhe was he's a lot younger than I
am and he was full of radicalcandor for me and he kept
telling me I don't know what todo.
This makes sense, but I don'tknow what to do.
(10:09):
So to the extent that there arepractical tips.
We all owe Daniel Rubin a greatshout out of thanks.
John Broer (10:17):
No, that's great.
Sara Best (10:18):
Well, and Kim, you mentioned the software company
you started.
I was reading about somethingthat may have happened as a
precursor to starting yoursoftware company.
You had a boss hole encounter.
You write about it in your book.
Do you want to?
Can you share a little bitabout that experience?
John Broer (10:39):
Without any direct names, of course.
Kim Scott (10:41):
Yeah, because actually there's lots.
I'll tell you there's lots moreto the story than I had before
in the book.
But so I was working for thisguy who was really belittling.
In fact, you know, sometimesthat kind of behavior, it shows
up in your body.
I actually shrank half an inch,literally.
(11:02):
I went to the doctor.
She couldn't believe it.
She said well, you've got toquit this job.
But anyway, he said somethingincredibly rude about me in an
email to someone else andsomehow there was a BCC
situation and I wound up seeingthe email and went and I
confronted him about it and hesaid oh, just don't worry your
(11:25):
pretty little head about it.
And then later on he said Isaid you know, I feel like you
don't respect me.
And he said I don't feel likeyou respect me and my
superiority.
Basically, like it was reallybad that was.
It was a terrible situation.
Sara Best (11:45):
But I think it spurred the mission and just
confirmed your passion forcreating a workplace where
people can love each othercertainly.
Kim Scott (11:56):
Or at least care, at least show common human decency.
I mean, that was the, in fact,in this moment where there have
been so many layoffs, it was alayoff that that manager
conducted horribly that made merealize how important good
management is and how damagingbad management can be.
(12:16):
It was really it was, and thatwas kind of the moment where I
realized that management was not.
It was actually interesting andit mattered.
John Broer (12:23):
And we will be right back.
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John Broer (13:37):
Okay, let's get back to the program.
Well, kim, you can look back onthis now and you said there's a
lot more to this story.
Clearly you have recovered oryou've moved on.
However, I don't think thisshould be lost.
We've had people come on andshare their bosshole stories.
There is real misery.
(13:58):
I mean there is harm being doneto people emotionally,
physically, psychologically andjust because of people that
don't understand that they'rejust acting like bossholes or
they have no knowledge of how tobe better at what they're doing
.
Kim Scott (14:14):
Yeah, no, and the sort of more.
To the story part was I bumpedinto him like 10 years later and
I was really I'm laughing at it.
It's a funny story now.
It was not funny at the time Imean when you're shrinking half
and I'm only five feet tall, Idid not have half an inch to
give you know when the way thatyou're being treated is making
(14:39):
itself manifest in your body andI've talked to people who get
insomnia they break out in hives.
I mean, it really is, is trueharm there's?
There's also evidence thatshows that people are more
likely to have heart attacks,probably not in their twenties,
as I was at the time, but later.
So it's, it's a serious thing.
But I bumped into him 10 yearslater and we had a drink and I
(15:03):
realized, like in my mind, hewas the devil.
You know, I had, I had and thenI realized he wasn't he.
You know, he was even youngerthan I was at the time when he
was running this company.
He had no idea what he wasdoing and nobody to teach him
and he had too much power.
It's a bad combo, isn't it?
Yes, it is.
(15:24):
Ignorance and power are a badcombo, not good, not good.
Sara Best (15:29):
Well, and that's an example, there are others.
You lived through other, moreegregious violations, if you
will, that weren't just aboutyour spirit or your reputation.
They were about your livelihood, your womanhood.
(15:50):
All of that.
You write about that in JustWork.
I think that's where I'd loveto go next how we can recognize,
attack and eliminate workplaceinjustice.
So, at the end of the day, wereally are talking about
inequality, injustice, ignorance.
It could be a cover for all ofthat in some cases, but what
moved you in this direction?
Kim Scott (16:09):
to be even more specific about what we have to
shift in the workplace, yeahWell, as I said before, when you
write a book about feedback,you get a lot of it, and indeed
I did.
And by far the most valuablefeedback I got was when I was
giving a radical candor talk ata tech company in San Francisco
(16:31):
and the CEO of that company hadbeen a colleague of mine for the
better part of a decade, aperson who I like and respect
enormously and one of too fewBlack women CEOs in tech.
And when I finished giving thepresentation, she pulled me
aside and she said, kim, I'mexcited to roll out Radical
Candor, but I got to tell youit's much harder for me than it
(16:51):
is for you.
And she went on to explain tome that as soon as she would
offer anyone, even the mostgentle, compassionate criticism,
she would get slimed with theangry black woman stereotype.
And I knew this was true.
And it made me have fourrealizations at the same time.
The first was that I had notbeen the kind of colleague that
I imagined myself to be, that Iwant to be.
(17:13):
I hadn't even noticed theextent to which she had to show
up unfailingly cheerful andpleasant at every meeting we
were ever in together, eventhough she had what to be ticked
off about, as we all do at work.
The second thing I realized wasthat I had also been in denial
about the kinds of things thatwere happening to me as a woman
(17:33):
in the workplace, and I think,in part because I never wanted
to think of myself as a victim,but even less than wanting to
think of myself as a victim thatI want to think of myself as a
perpetrator.
And so I had been even deeperin denial about the ways in
which I had caused harm.
I hadn't intended to, but I hadexhibited sort of the bias,
(17:53):
prejudice and bullying that hadcaused people to slime my
colleague with that stereotype.
And then the fourth thing Irealized was that, as a leader,
I had failed to do what I neededto do to prevent these things
from happening on my watch, sure, as as almost all leaders do,
actually, and I thought that itwas that was kind of the moment
(18:19):
when I decided to write Radical,I mean just work, because I
needed to, I needed to come togrips with these things that I
had been sort of I had gonethrough so much of my career
kind of la, la, la, la, la la,pretending that things weren't
happening, and I want toacknowledge that in some
respects that was that wasuseful, because I think there
(18:41):
were some things that hadhappened that were so painful
and upsetting that I couldn'tcome to grips with them.
I'm not saying denial is like agreat way of coping, but I also
want to offer some compassionfor people who are sometimes in
denial about the things that arehappening to them.
So when you're the personharmed, you get to choose your
(19:05):
response, but if you're theupstander, you need to intervene
.
You don't get to be in denial.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
And if you're the leader.
Kim Scott (19:13):
You definitely don't get to be in denial.
Sara Best (19:15):
That's right and upstander.
And that whole idea jumped outto me when I read the book.
I have a big sticky note overhere.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
Oh, thank you.
Sara Best (19:24):
What a great segue.
I wanted to ask you how dopeople become upstanders?
Give us some practical adviceabout you know, joining in in a
way to be part of the solution,in a way that doesn't mean we
have to change who we are orwhat we do.
Give us your take on theupstander.
Kim Scott (19:43):
Yeah, I think you probably do have to change some
things, but you want to becomeyour best self, not your worst
self.
There you go, I'll put it thatway, well said.
And so I think that, in order tobe an upstander, first of all
remember what you're doing isyou're intervening when
something's going wrong.
You're not like going in to bethe Incredible Hulk or the hero.
(20:07):
You're not an Avenger, andyou're also not standing up for
someone who's weaker than you.
You're not casting other peoplein the role of damsel in
distress or you're not giving into the white savior complex or
something like that.
So what can you do when youwant to sort of create a better
(20:27):
workplace?
I think one of the problems isthat we often conflate bias,
prejudice and bullying as thoughthey're the same thing, and
they're actually three verydifferent things and we need
three very different responses.
So I'm going to offer you some,if I may, some really simple
definitions Overly simple, butuseful in the moment.
Speaker 4 (20:46):
We like simple.
Simple is good.
Kim Scott (20:48):
Yeah, simple is good.
There's more to it and I'm notsaying ignore all the more to it
, but let's sort of disambiguate.
Bias is not meaning it.
It's usually unconscious youdon't really mean what you're
saying Whereas prejudice ismeaning it.
It's a very consciously heldbelief and bullying.
There's no belief, conscious orunconscious, going on, you're
(21:08):
just being mean.
So not meaning.
It is bias, meaning it isprejudice.
Being mean is bullying, andthinking about how to respond
differently to each is useful.
So let's start with bias.
One of my favorite stories comesfrom Aileen Lee, who started
Cowboy BC.
She said she was going into ameeting with two colleagues who
(21:30):
are men and they sat down at abig, long conference table and
the other side started filing inand the first person sat across
from the guy to Aileen's left.
The next person came in and satacross from the guy to his left
and then everybody else filedon down the table, leaving
Aileen dangling by herself.
So how many times is that howbias shows up?
(21:51):
Just in, who decides to sitacross from whom?
Right, but Aileen wasundeterred.
She knew she had the expertisethat was going to win her team
the deal.
So she started talking and whenthe other side had questions,
they didn't direct them atAileen, they directed them at
her two colleagues who were menanother common way that bias
shows up.
It happened once, it happenedtwice, it happened a third time
(22:12):
and finally her colleagues stoodup and he said I think Aileen
and I should switch seats.
That was all he had to do tototally change the dynamic in
the room Because all of a suddeneverybody else realized what
they were doing.
They felt a little embarrassed,but they changed it, you know.
And so, yeah, that's what.
That's what an I statement does.
(22:33):
It kind of holds a mirror up tothe other side to understand,
to understand things the waythat you do.
It sort of calls people in.
But if it's prejudice, holdinga mirror up is not going to work
because the person's going togrin in the mirror, they're
going to like what they see.
You know that's the way theywant it.
So if it's prejudice, you needan it statement.
(22:55):
And then it statement canappeal to the law, it can appeal
to HR policy or it can appealto common sense.
So an example of that acolleague of mine was in a
hiring meeting and everyone whohad interviewed all the
colleagues agreed that.
I mean all the candidates agreedthat the most qualified person
(23:18):
for the role was a black womanwho had worn her hair out,
naturally, and the hiringmanager said, oh well, we can't
extend her an offer.
And my colleague said, well, whynot?
And the hiring manager and thisis at like a very well-known,
well-respected company recently,not in the 1960s and the hiring
(23:42):
manager said, well, I'm notgoing to put that hair in front
of the business and, believe me,nowhere in the job requirements
was there anything about hair.
This was a financial servicesfirm and so what was in its
statement that could be used?
It is illegal not to hiresomeone because of their hair,
(24:02):
which it was in that statethanks to the Crown Act or she
could have appealed to an HRpolicy.
It is an HR violation not tohire someone because of their
hair.
Or if she had lived in a placewhere she didn't, or worked in a
place where she didn't have thelaw or the HR policy in place,
she could have said it isridiculous not to hire the most
qualified kid because of theirhair.
John Broer (24:24):
Because of their hair.
Kim Scott (24:25):
Yeah, yeah.
So an it statement sort ofmakes it clear where the line is
between one person's freedom tobelieve whatever they want, but
they can't impose that beliefon other people.
Sara Best (24:35):
Oh, that's perfect.
Kim Scott (24:37):
Yeah, yeah, that's easier said than done.
You know I tell this anecdote,but I had to think a long time
to find it.
So we'll talk in a minute aboutwhat leaders can do to make
sure that this that upstandersstand up more often.
Now, in the case of bullying,you want a you statement.
You don't want an I statement,because an I statement sort of
invites someone in to understandthings from your perspective,
(25:00):
and that's not what you want todo in the case of a bully.
My daughter taught me this whenshe was in third grade.
She was getting bullied and Iwas encouraging her to say about
this kid, you know, oh, youknow, I feel sad when you blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah.
And she banged her fist on thetable and she said mom, they are
trying to make me feel sad.
Why would I tell them?
(25:21):
They succeeded.
That's a really good point.
And so so we talked aboutsaying you know, why are you
doing this or what's going onfor you here?
Sometimes, actually, I learnedthis from and there's a New York
Times article about adominatrix who taught people
(25:41):
this trick.
Just change the subject, ask aquestion about them Where'd you
get that shirt that all of asudden puts you in an active
stance.
You're no longer in thesubmissive role when you're
asking a question to someone youknow where'd you get that shirt
?
So try a you question or a youstatement, a you response.
If you think it's bullying.
There's a great organizationthat came up with the five Ds
(26:05):
for upstanders.
So how can you stand up tobullying or bias or prejudice?
Sometimes it's a directresponse, the I the, it, the you
statement, but other times youmight feel like you will get
there will be repercussions foryou.
And you know I wrote this bookin part in honor of upstanders.
(26:26):
I don't want to put upstandersin harm's way.
Some people have written in andsaid you know I upstood and I
got fired, so I want toacknowledge the power dynamics.
But there are other things youcan do to intervene that aren't
direct.
You can delegate, you can asksomeone else to intervene.
You can also delay.
(26:47):
You can check in with theperson later and see if they're
okay.
You can document what happened.
You don't want to post it onsocial media because the person
who owns that documentation isthe person who was harmed, not
you but that can be really,really helpful.
Or you can just distract.
(27:08):
There's a New York Times articleabout someone on the subway.
A man was following a woman andshe was afraid of him clearly
and things were starting to getphysical and he just threw his
potato chips all over the placeand it created a distraction and
allowed her to get away.
(27:28):
He didn't want to fight thisguy, but he also didn't want to
do nothing.
So those, the five Ds, I thinkgive people different ways to
think about intervening whenthey notice bias, prejudice or
bullying.
John Broer (27:41):
Kim, you said something that I think is really
helpful and a huge takeaway forour listeners, our managers and
supervisors out there.
Leaders have to be I don't knowif it's an oversensitivity they
just need to be aware andlistening and cognizant of bias,
prejudice or bullying that maybe taking place within the team.
(28:01):
And when you talk about leadersespecially, they really need to
be mindful of what's happeningin the workplace.
Correct?
Kim Scott (28:09):
Yes, they need to be mindful, but that's not enough.
They really need to be mindfulof what's happening in the
workplace, correct?
Yes, they need to be mindful,but that's not enough.
They also need to put systemsin place that are going to make
it more likely that peopleintervene.
John Broer (28:22):
Like I said, timeless wisdom from Kim Scott.
You can see why I wanted tobring this back up for a
flashback, so make sure you gointo the show notes and listen
to part two of that particularinterview with Kim Scott and
look at the resources that areavailable, and especially her
new book, radical Respect.
Keep checking back to the BossHole Chronicles.
(28:44):
We'll see you soon.
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