August 26, 2025 • 37 mins
Mark Ostach takes us on a fascinating journey through the psychology of technology and reveals how our digital behaviors profoundly shape our emotions, relationships, and workplace cultures. Drawing from his unique background in psychology and over a decade in the tech industry, Mark shares the pivotal moments that led him from bootstrapping a technology company to becoming a sought-after keynote speaker on digital wellness.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
John Broer (00:05):
A very warm welcome to all of our friends out there
in The Bossh ole TransformationNation.
This is your host, John Broer,and welcome to another
installment of The Bossh oleChronicles Flashback.
And let me tell you what theinspiration behind this was.
It's Monday morning, August25th, and I was actually looking
(00:26):
on LinkedIn and I saw our goodfriend, Mark Ostach, is speaking
at the State SHRM Conference inArizona, and I'll tell you what
folks in Arizona at theconference you're going to love
it.
Mark is amazing and he's been onthe program twice, but I wanted
to flash back to the first timehe ever joined us on the Bossh
(00:48):
ole Chronicles and this would begoing all the way back to
January of 2023, and it wasentitled.
If you Really Knew Me, Mark isan amazing presenter, author,
consultant, just a good person,and I think you're going to love
hearing from him again.
So let's jump in.
The Bossh ole Chronicles arebrought to you by Real Good
(01:14):
Ventures a talent optimizationfirm helping organizations
diagnose their most criticalpeople and execution issues with
world-class analytics.
Make sure to check out all theresources in the show notes and
be sure to follow us and shareyour feedback.
Enjoy today's episode.
Sara Best (01:35):
This guy's kind of become one of my favorite people
to follow.
When his e-blaster email comesinto my inbox, as it does on
occasion, with new ideas and newinformation, I stop what I'm
doing and I read it, because Iknow there's going to be a
lesson or an activity or anaction that will calm me, settle
(01:55):
me, help me get focused on whatI believe is important.
Before we get into all thestuff about him, let me just
introduce you to Mark Ostach.
Mark, welcome to the podcast.
Mark Ostach (02:05):
Sarah, thanks so much for having me.
It's awesome to be here and I'mexcited to keep people in the
John, what did you say?
John Broer (02:12):
Out of The Boss hole Zone.
Mark Ostach (02:14):
Out of The Boss hole Zone.
I'll try my best.
I'll try my best.
Sara Best (02:18):
Well, Mark, I want to share with our audience.
I had the privilege oflistening to you provide a
keynote, and you are one of thesmoothest, most charismatic,
easy-to-listen-to keynotes I'veever heard.
This was a couple years back ata leadership summit, and this
is really one of your mainplatforms is to provide keynote
speeches.
You've done TED Talks.
You've written two books.
(02:39):
We'll talk about both of themtoday.
One just released most recentlyit's one that I've been sharing
with my clients, but we'll getinto that.
You're a frequently featuredspeaker on USA Today, and the
topic, the subject matter thatyou talk about is very
specialized.
I would like to toss it to you,Mark, to tell us a little bit
(03:03):
about how you arrived as anexpert in digital detox, among
other things, and just tell us alittle bit about your journey
and what you shared today.
Mark Ostach (03:08):
Yeah, Sara, I appreciate you teeing that up.
So the space that I'm in and Ialways my ears get red when I
hear the word expert, because Ifeel like we all are lifelong
learners but in the space ofhaving a lot of experience in
digital wellness and mentalhealth, the two spaces that I
spend most of my day and lifeinto I found myself as a recent
(03:30):
college graduate with a degreein psychology, and I was lost,
like many other 22-year-olds arewhen they graduate, and I did
what you do when you're lost yougo back to school.
And I went back to school formassage therapy school because I
was really interested inworkplace wellness as it
pertains to ergonomics and kindof chair massage and those sorts
(03:50):
of things, and had a vision fora business that I was going to
launch in the corporate arenaproviding chair massages and
that bit that I, that vision,kind of uh collapsed when a good
friend of mine started atechnology company who I was
living with after college, so hehired me.
Actually, I worked for him forfree for about eight months
(04:12):
until we could go from twopeople to three people on
payroll, which was fun, and thenfrom there, for the next 10
years I spent in the technologyarena really becoming aware of
the psychology of technology.
So it was just truly by bothpassion and experience that
those worlds collided.
And while I was on the HR sideso I was in charge of hire I was
(04:35):
the non-engineer right.
Everyone else had thesetechnical degrees.
I was a liberal arts guyinterested in poetry and
counseling, which fit me great.
When we were hiring, we hired40 people within five years and
it was an awesome experience.
But in that experience Icontinued just to really realize
how what you do and view onlineshapes your thoughts, your
(04:58):
moods, your mindset and justyour relationships, and that
kind of focus became a bit of anobsession.
Just your relationships andthat kind of focus became a bit
of an obsession.
And I found myselfbootstrapping a technology
company that allowed you tobetter manage your time on the
internet.
This was 12 years ago and ourmission was to say if we can
show users and people how theirmood is impacted by the sites
they go to, then they'll be moreaware of the sites that make
(05:20):
them sad, mad, frustrated, etcetera.
Yes, so that was an awesome,awesome experience and that was
literally 12 years ago beforeany of the social media giants
tracked mood, kind of publicly.
That's where my central focuswas.
So just fast forward five yearsafter that technology company
launched.
It was one of those freemiumkind of things you know you
(05:43):
don't have to pay to play.
And I met my wife.
We were engaged.
She said this company you'respending a ton of time and money
into is not generating anyrevenue.
You should advocate for thethings that you're passionate
about, not just you know, sharetechnology solutions, and that
kind of was a pivot in myjourney on deciding to go into
speaking and writing as opposedto building technology products.
(06:06):
And fast forward to today, twobooks later, two kids later, two
dogs later.
It's been quite a journey, butit's been an awesome one.
Sara Best (06:16):
I'm just going to breathe that in for a minute.
Such an angle, such a nicheangle that has incredible impact
and maybe unconscious to many,many people.
Tell us about the ways that youfound success in I don't want
to say transforming or reformingpeople, but how have you been
able to help people see andconnect to the challenge and the
(06:40):
mood disorder and the thingsthat can happen from our
interface with technology?
Mark Ostach (06:45):
Yeah, great, great question, sarah.
I've got a 92-year-old mentorwho always tells me that simple
things unite and complex thingsdivide.
Very simple, right.
So I feel like what I've beenable to do is just share some
simple things that we need to bemindful of, and an example of
(07:05):
that is looking at our digitalcalories the same way we look at
our physical calories.
So we're all hyper aware of youknow you get things like
biohacking and you know peopleare like measuring out the
amount of grams or macros theyeat or consume.
But what does that look like asit pertains to your digital
life?
So that simple metaphor hasbeen used for a decade for me,
(07:28):
just kind of inviting peopleinto the dialogue.
So that's a, for instance.
I think another thing that I'verealized is that stories connect
.
So Sarah mentioned thenewsletter.
I send a story out a month andit's been really cool to be able
to, you know, just sharestories about not so much
traditional digital detoxinformation and things like that
(07:52):
.
I'm actually more interested inmaking sure the endangered
human connection element doesn'tget lost in the transactional
nature of our days, which Ithink going back to like uh,
getting you know, becoming aboss hole, which we're we're
trying to avoid.
It's really a it's really aby-product of, of burnout and
and a lack of feeling connectedto the things that bring you joy
(08:14):
and peace in your life.
And you can do nothing.
But you know, you know, swimlike a duck underneath all your
emails and meetings and yourto-dos and that pressure builds
up and next thing, you know,you're, you're, you're, you're
quacking at somebody or bitingthem Right.
So a lot of it's just helphelping to raise awareness on
how, how your internet behaviorsand how your digital calories
(08:37):
just impact your day Mark may Iask you make me think of you
make as a night?
John Broer (08:43):
Okay, so you have a 92-year-old mentor.
That's remarkable and what ablessing to have somebody like
that in your life.
And also that's somebody whowas around and working well,
well, well before the advent ofthe technology we know today.
Okay, I mean, there have beentechnological advances ever
since you know that person wasworking, technological advances
(09:07):
ever since that person wasworking.
But I've got to imagine,relative to managers and
supervisors, that on the onehand, the technology presents
itself as a great convenience,but it also can make us a bit
lazy around not investing thattime in one another.
In other words, it's very easyto just shoot out a text, an
email, a Slack response of somesort, when really it is better
(09:30):
served by picking up the phone.
And I mean, is that reallywhere you're seeing some of this
as well?
Mark Ostach (09:37):
Yeah, and just kind of commenting on my mentor
who's 92, started off his careeras a physician where he was
making $5.
patient visits like, house callslike with the black bag, you
know, going to a patient's housefor five bucks, so literally
not even fax machines didn'teven exist.
But kind of laddering that backto to to your, your question,
(09:58):
john, I think there's almostbeen um, and I feel it sometimes
too like there's been a fear.
Just to pick up the phone andcall somebody.
You feel like you're going todisrupt them, your own focus on
well, that's going to take 20minutes as opposed to the two
minutes that I could just dumpanother to-do in their inbox as
opposed to truly calling them.
(10:19):
So there's been recent researchthat shows like communication
preferences across demographicsand psychographics, and one of
the interesting things that cameout of that communication
research for me that I took awaywas how much people prefer
texting across like millennials,gen Zs, boomers, you know,
(10:40):
boomers.
That seems a littlecounterproductive to me, but in
the same breath I think one ofthe reasons why is because
there's not enough time in theday to make those phone calls,
or at least that's the storythat we're subscribing to.
I would push back and say it'sthe opposite.
You can get a heck of a lotmore done with a phone call.
You just might need to be boldand call people before 8am, when
(11:04):
they're actually available.
So when you and when you callthem before 8am, don't just go
right to the jugular of what itis you want.
Check in, acknowledge thebeauty of the sunrise that
you're looking at in yourcommute or out your office
window.
Try to find a common groundthat's rooted in some of the
beauty of which is the new dayin front of you, and then get
(11:26):
into what it is that you'relooking to get or take away from
that communication point.
Sara Best (11:32):
That's a good reminder to not be all business
but to foster that connectionand savor the things that we're
grateful for as we engage,Because the relationships we
have with clients and colleaguesand vendor partners and others.
they're really blessings If youlook at them that way, they
truly are time to highlight too.
(11:53):
You have a resource that I'vestarted sharing with all my
clients, which is a gratitudejournal.
It's a tiny little book ofwonder that you created.
It's a 14-day journey and notto shift gears radically away
from what we were talking about.
But let's pause for a momentand bring in this idea of
gratitude Tell us about theinspiration for this little
(12:15):
journal.
Mark Ostach (12:16):
Yes.
So, like many other strugglingwriters, I had a desire to write
a book and I had a couple ofmanuscripts that were starting
and stopping.
So then you know, god had kindof given me a vision for this
little incremental step towardsauthorship, which is this little
gratitude notebook, sarah, thatyou're referencing and I know
those that are listening can'tquite see it, but picture your
(12:37):
iPhone, because it's about thesize of an iPhone.
That was by design and the ideawas can you pick up kind of a
habit of gratitude before youpick up your phone?
So the hope is that it's a twoweek little challenge.
There's a quote on one side andthen there's a page for you to
write what you're worried aboutand then what you're grateful
for.
And the idea is is that if youcan do that for two weeks you
(13:00):
might shift some of that doomscrolling that happens first
thing out of bad before you'veeven peed or brush your teeth
and gotten into a little bitmore of a of a heart of thanks
and praise, which Sarah and Iknow and, john, I don't know you
as well as I know Sarah, butlike it is a we need to be like,
almost like diligent warriors,and how we are cultivating
(13:21):
gratitude with all of theheaviness of the world.
John Broer (13:24):
Amen, that is so true.
Sara Best (13:26):
Yes, yeah, and people can.
They can purchase this forthemselves, for their teams.
We'll put a link in our shownotes so that people can go
right to your website.
John Broer (13:39):
They're deeply inexpensive for the value they
provide.
Mark Ostach (13:41):
So I encourage.
Sara Best (13:41):
And it's funny because, how you described, you
know how this little notebookcame to be as a great segue into
the two things that I wanted tomake sure we talked about.
One is in 2020, you wrote abook that was designed to help
people build courage andconnection online yes, To really
become comfortable andconfident and powerful in their
(14:03):
connection with people.
And how timely was that?
Because we were in the midst ofa lockdown.
Tell us a little bit about thatbook and then we'll jump
forward and talk about yourlatest book, which again centers
on connection and culture ofconnection and belonging.
There's an incredible themehere, so tell us about.
Mark Ostach (14:21):
Yeah, thank you sir .
You know, it is all God's timing, and what you don't read
between the pages that are onthe back of the book of Courage
to Connect, which came out inJuly of 2020, was a very scared
child, and that scared child wasme, and the background behind
that was I had been building thespeaking business on the side
(14:42):
through a side hustle, using myvacation days and kind of
maneuvering my schedule to apoint where it reached a
threshold where I had tomaintain my integrity at my
current employer and say, hey,listen, this is what I want to
do full time.
Can we talk about a successionplan over the next six months?
They said absolutely, You'veoutgrown this role.
(15:03):
We see your future, Keep going.
Well, that was a great kind ofyou know come to Jesus moment
for me and confessing what itwas I wanted to do.
Uh.
However, that six month uhrunway turned into two weeks
when we lost our biggest clientthe next week.
John Broer (15:18):
Oh boy, oh wow.
Mark Ostach (15:19):
So I found myself in November of 2019 with this
kind of kick in the pants to getout into this sole practitioner
space to provide an income formy family.
And in that same week, myfather-in-law had passed and my
wife said listen, we've gotabout 45 days of money in the
(15:39):
bank, so if you're going to dothis, you have to do this.
Yesterday.
And she said I believe in you,but go.
So I went and I went hard and Igot some bookings and all these
sorts of things and then, as weall know the story goes, the
pandemic hits, all the eventscancel and I found myself like,
oh my gosh, what am I going todo with my life?
(16:02):
And in that space I got quietand I fought off a lot of the
anxieties and I was like, well,I need to finish this dang book
and I have the time.
So I finished the book withhelp of a friend and got the
book out.
While I was finishing the bookthis of a friend and got the
book out.
While I was finishing the book,this thing called zoom, you
know, became mainstream and then, from that point forward to
(16:23):
today, I've done nearly 200 zoomevents and, uh, it's been a
season of harvest.
So yeah, that's a little bit ofbehind the scenes of uh, of how
some of those things getbirthed.
John Broer (16:34):
And I don't want to step over a theme that I'm
picking up on, and that is thewisdom of your wife.
Mark Ostach (16:41):
You know what this is.
This is a.
This is a really good theme andI'll use this as an actual and
honest transition to share astory from a book, from the new
book.
If you really knew me, sarah, Iknow you mentioned maybe
sharing a story and this is agood timing.
But yeah, I have.
Uh, you know, truthfully,there's been a season of
resistance and my wife has hadclarity in a vision that she's
(17:03):
been given and I I've kind ofbeen like those 1980 TVs where
you kind of got to fix the bunnyears to see if my vision is her
vision and our covenant is onthe right path.
And uh, there's a story in thebook called honey in the rock.
In it is on the right path.
And there's a story in the bookcalled Honey in the Rock.
We hear the terms rock, bottomrock in a hard place, but we
(17:23):
don't really hear the termshoney in a rock.
So I'm going to try to makethis a two and a half minute
story, but it speaks to the workthat I'm doing through what's
called the Bell Method, and theBell Method stands for belonging
, empathy, listening and love.
So I went from courage toconnect, teaching people courage
and how to connect online andoffline, to taking all these 200
events and observations throughall these organizations to say,
(17:43):
okay, well, how do peoplemaintain connection in a hybrid
world?
And I just kind of got thisvision for the bell method
teaching, belonging, empathy,listening and love.
So in the new book each storyhas a reflection kind of corner
that says, after this storywhich element of the Bell method
stands out to you.
So that's how it works.
(18:04):
So back to Honey in the Rock.
We're going to renovate ourhouse, redo a kitchen.
I'm all excited.
Living in a little threebedroom ranch Life is good,
neighbors are great.
And we find ourselves at Lowe'son a typical date night and
we're about to sign for newappliances and new cabinets and
(18:24):
we end up pausing and realizingthat we just want to have a good
friend who does design work tocome over and double check our
plans.
That night we go home my wife.
We're emailing late at night.
She says, hey, look at thishouse for Sal and Zillow.
I'm thinking, what are youtalking about?
This is our forever home.
And lo and behold, she finds us.
I say, well gosh, that housesure does have everything we
(18:47):
need.
It's closer to the kids' school, let's check it out and that
began a period of do we love itor list it.
Well, 10 houses later I am likein the agony of like you know
what, let's not move, let's goback to the kitchen remodel.
And she is like prayingsteadily, fasting for like
clarity, and is this house foryou know, should we move?
(19:09):
So I say to her listen, let'sbe done, let's pause, market's
getting all funky.
She said, okay, but one morehouse.
So we look at this.
One more house.
It's on a dirt road, on a lake,two things we never even
fathomed.
And we found ourselves reallywith the peace of God.
In this house, kids wereactually for the first time,
(19:30):
feeling the presence of likeokay, this could be my room.
We have an eight andfive-year-old, so looking at
houses with little kids is oneof the most challenging things
that you'll ever do.
So, long story short, we findourselves putting an offer on
this house.
We put an offer on it highestand best.
The next day we find out thatwe are the runners up.
So we're feeling kind of theups and downs of the house,
(19:52):
hunting my wife, who is very,you know, a rule follower.
She decides to write a letterto the homeowners.
Writes a letter to thehomeowners, drops it off.
The next day gets a text fromthe homeowners saying your
letter moved us to tears.
We felt the spirit of God inyour words, praying that you
find the right house.
If it's not this one, you know,hopefully one day our paths
(20:14):
will cross.
If not, see you in heaven andit was this bold, like you know,
hopefully one day our pathswill cross.
If not see you in heaven and itwas this bold, like you know.
Communication back.
So that gave my wife hope.
That gave me a little bit oflike hmm, that maybe this is a
bit of a sacred experience we'reabout to embark on.
Two months go by.
The house sells.
My wife is like so focused onpraying circles around this
house she's literally droppingthe kids off and walking laps in
(20:38):
the neighborhood as if wealready live there.
I'm like eating sugary M&Mswith the kids watching Sonic 2
at the theaters and she's likeno sugar.
I need to have clarity, right.
So the house sells and we'redriving in the car on this one
day and we're like kind of.
You know, it's three days afterthe house sells and we have
(20:58):
this running joke for the lasttwo months.
Hey, did Amy call you?
Amy's the homeowner this, butthe people that bought our house
came to move in.
They purchased it over Zoomright 2022.
(21:20):
They never walked the house.
They came to move in with theircars and the keys they legally
own it and they said this houseisn't the right house for us.
We're going to put it back onthe market.
So Amy says I remember the cardyou wrote us you should get in
touch with their realtors.
They didn't put it back on themarket, they sold it to us.
A whole series of thingshappened, kind of that.
I'll spare the details.
(21:41):
You can read the story in thebook.
But it was this kind of divinecalling of like this sacred
house that is for us didn't kindof come out the way that I had
envisioned it in my mind.
I'm sitting in the home nowwe're four months in.
But you know, you know the bellmethod, my mind.
I'm sitting in the home now,we're four months in, but the
Bell method.
My wife and I had differentelements.
Right, she was listening, shewas totally listening, she was
(22:05):
feeling that God's whisper, shewas acting on that and I wasn't
right.
So here we are in the home fourmonths later and still a whole
bunch of growth.
I think that when you findyourself in situations of change
and new experiences.
Sometimes the growth can belike it can almost be so
intimidating or debilitatingthat you get lost in, in, in the
(22:28):
, in the wilderness.
So, yeah, yeah, anyways, that's.
That's a snippet from the book.
Uh, I thought that that was astory that came to mind today
Sarah and John.
John Broer (22:37):
I love that story and that is one of those stories
too, mark, where and it's notlost on you or your wife where
you have to pause and reflect onhis hand, not where we expect
it or in our timing, but that'sa hard thing to do in today's
world.
I mean, the world itself wantsto push us through and rush us
(22:58):
through so many thingstechnology to distract us.
But having that conviction andthe capacity to just just be
patient and listen to that stillsmall, still small voice,
that's just.
That's just a great story.
What a blessing.
That's awesome.
Sara Best (23:31):
Thanks, sean of the continued uncertainty that we
face financially globally.
We were all suffering to somedegree by all this, and some
much more than others, but wewould be remiss if we didn't
just acknowledge hey, managershave a heavy load.
Mark Ostach (23:49):
Yes.
Sara Best (23:49):
Managing up, managing down.
John Broer (23:52):
Sarah, can I dovetail on that?
Yeah, I mean that's the wholepoint of this podcast.
Yes, Sarah, can I dovetail onthat as long?
I mean that's the whole pointof this podcast is we just want
to encourage managers andsupervisors don't be part, don't
(24:13):
be the origin of the misery andthe suffering.
And you may not realize thatyou will see Mark's resources,
including the Gratitude Journal,but I'll also cross-reference
that episode that we did a fewweeks back about gratitude in
the workplace.
That's transformational workand, to your point, Sarah, in
addition to developing people,that's hard.
Sara Best (24:32):
Well, and there are a couple of things that come to
mind.
Mark, you know you are anexpert in emotional intelligence
.
You may not use that languageor that speak, but what you
promote and what you teach andwhat you share and how you live,
too, are things that helppeople develop a mindfulness, a
centeredness, a connection, notonly a social connection, but an
(24:54):
internal and maybe, in manycases, a spiritual connection.
And it's about meeting basichuman need, and I love that you,
in the very beginning of ourconversation today, talked about
simple.
Simple is the solution, Simpleis the way.
So how about for managers andsupervisors and leaders and
others that have influence overpeople to just remember
(25:16):
belonging?
Empathy, listening and love arepretty much all you have to
focus on.
Well, not all, but mostly whatyou have to focus on when it
comes to getting the best out ofyour team and creating the best
for your team, but it alsomeans that you have to find that
yourself.
Mark Ostach (25:32):
Yes, and I'll share kind of two references.
One, an additional thing thatmanagers and leaders can do that
will remove some of the burdenof like wondering how are my
people, you know who's kind ofquietly withdrawing in this
quiet quitting kind of movementand who is disengaged, and these
sorts of things.
And as you maintain, as youkind of get yourself as a leader
(25:55):
locked into that, thatatmosphere becomes very fear
stricken.
So there are two questions thatyou can ask your people that
you manage weekly.
That will save you a wholebunch of mental space and
they're super simple.
The first one is you ready forthis?
Sara Best (26:11):
Yeah.
Mark Ostach (26:12):
What are you working on?
And the second one is how can Ihelp?
Wow, what are you working onand how can I help?
That can be the agenda of your15 minute or 30 minute
one-on-one and on the on therare instances when they go into
detail on how you can help them, you now have meaning in your
(26:35):
managerial or leadershipresponsibilities.
You don't have to manufacturenew programs or systems or
processes for them to do theirjobs better.
Just ask them what they'reworking on and how can you help
and most times they won't needyour help, which will create a
little bit more space in thatone-on-one to get into that
relational side of therelationship that needs to be
(26:59):
fostered and nurtured.
That is going to make thatemployee or that person that
much more safe and comfortableand transparent with you when
the rubber hits the road onthings like growth or exit.
Sara Best (27:14):
I hear the ping.
The ping happens when somethingis spoken or shared and it's
like yeah, that.
And for managers and leaderswho have hesitation or concern
or think I don't have time forthat, we need results.
This is the avenue and themedium and the access to those
(27:36):
results.
Would you agree?
Mark Ostach (27:37):
Yeah, yes, I do, and I think, as leaders, when
you're feeling overwhelmed ordisconnected, the simplicity
almost seems too good to be true.
Yeah, workplace, and I'mnoticing this and it's totally
(28:02):
the level of discomfort for me,and I'm even just consulting
with organizations I'm notinternal to any one organization
, but like when you remove someof the bloat of the day of the
workday, with extra meetings andlong lunches and coffees all of
which I love, by the way Ithoroughly enjoy.
But when you remove those things, you're starting to find more
(28:22):
time in your day to let yourmind wonder on your significance
and your role and yourresponsibilities that have
shifted because you now havemore space.
Either you have more space oryou're even doubled up on the
video meetings and your days areeven busier.
It's one or the other, that'sright.
So the the the the part is,what I'm driving at is that,
(28:43):
like you need to kind ofreinvent your rhythms in this
new, new way of working, andpart of that requires exercise
and movement and things that aregoing to bring you more, more
of that like energy that you cangive to others that you maybe
didn't have the privilege ofwith your 45-minute commute or
your client luncheons thatalways had to be in person at
(29:05):
the one restaurant that took twohours to get your food right,
that's right.
So I don't know if you guys cancomment on that or how that
relates to you both specifically.
Sara Best (29:16):
Well, I think what you're talking about, mark, is
creating margin, and I knowthat's one of the at the end of
your book you actually haveprayers that you know you
provide on behalf of the readers, over the readers, if you will,
and one is for greater margin,margin to have to do more of the
(29:36):
things you love and the thingsthat fill you up.
So I think that's an inside-outjob too.
Most of what we're talkingabout here starts with awareness
and connection to what'sdriving us from the inside.
John, what are your thoughts?
John Broer (29:51):
Well, your question, mark, made me think of a number
of conversations I've had Ithink we've had over the last
couple of years.
Of conversations I've had, Ithink we've had over the last
couple of years, where someorganizations are saying, well,
you know what, we're going tohave people coming back to the
workplace and some are sayingwe're going to mandate that.
And when people start toevaluate and really look at the
cost of commutes, giving up orsacrificing time with family, I
(30:17):
think they realized that thatactually took away.
I mean this was not lifeaffirming it was not.
I mean I think they physicallyfeel that it was taking
something away.
It's like taking something frommy soul and my physical health,
my mental health.
I think that's why we're gettinga lot of people saying I just
don't want that anymore.
There is something more, andmore doesn't mean filling it
(30:41):
with more technology.
It doesn't mean jamming morestuff into that 45 minutes or an
hour that you have in themorning.
I mean let's not step over thefact that, mark, you have a deep
and strong faith, as do Sarahand myself, and when I think
there are people out therethinking there's gotta be more,
there's something else to.
(31:02):
You know, we talk about helpingpeople find meaning and
fulfillment in their work.
I think there's a hunger, andthat hunger is related to
something.
So when people say I thinkthere's something more out there
, the answer is yes, thereabsolutely is.
Mark Ostach (31:15):
Right, yeah, I will give a healthy confession.
Like I am in a season of marginand I'm having to learn how to
have it.
Like there's a lot of anxietiesand like habits and routines
that are like whoa like, do Ineed to do this?
And part of it's because wemoved out into the sticks a
(31:35):
little bit.
Whoa like, do I need to do this?
And part of it's because wemoved out into the sticks a
little bit, so I have a littlebit more time on my hands.
But then that goes back to likeall right, well, you know, 20
years into my career, you knowI've had this mentor for 15
years who's been just abrilliant person in my life.
It's like how am I starting togive more of my time?
Right?
And I think a lot of peoplethat find themselves whether
(31:57):
you're in the middle of yourcareer, whether you're
sunsetting or taking an earlyretirement or downshifting like
you have time on your hands andwithout intentionality behind
that time, it can drive you nuts.
That's right.
Sara Best (32:11):
It's the other end of the spectrum which is equally
stressful and challenging.
But you know, just eventhinking about your book, the
reflections and the opportunityto digest the content personally
after each story, I think wouldbe a great exercise for anybody
who's finding themselves.
You know we often refer to itas liminal space, which was
(32:32):
another podcast episode we did awhile back with Rick and Amy
Simmons podcast episode we did awhile back with Rick and Amy
Simmons.
I first heard about liminalspace from Father Richard Rohr,
who is just an amazingcontemplative kind of priest.
But it's this idea of you knowwe're in between, like what we
knew before doesn't existanymore and what is coming to be
(32:52):
is not fully known.
But, how can we settle in, youknow, find margin, capitalize on
the margin and and explore theopportunity that this in-between
space provides for us, and itdoes.
It does provide incredibleopportunity.
But I think the message thatyou're sharing today, Mark, is,
(33:13):
you know, like it starts withconnection.
It starts with connection toyou and connection to others,
and really all the other stuffgets figured out.
It does get figured out.
John Broer (33:25):
Well, Mark, what's next on the horizon for you?
What is right around the cornerthat you're excited about?
Mark Ostach (33:32):
You know, I had a chance to do a keynote last
month with a kind of aco-creator.
He's a piano player and I'vebeen.
You know, I'm a storyteller andI kind of have been getting
sick of my own PowerPoints,right, you know the typical way.
So I synced up with him and webasically have come up with a
(33:55):
new kind of style of presenting.
It's more on entertainment andwe go through the Bell Method
and we teach managers andleaders what the Bell Method
sounds like with music, what themethod could be like with
stories.
So it's just kind of thislittle like back and forth.
It's a little cooler than whowas it?
Dave Letterman and Paul, kindof the back and forth Paul
(34:16):
Schaefer, that'sman and Paul,kind of the you know the back
and forth.
John Broer (34:17):
Paul Schaefer, that's right, paul Schaefer.
Mark Ostach (34:19):
But like, for instance, you know, when we look
at the owl method for listening, right, you know, I say Bob,
bob's a piano player named Bob,what does listening sound like,
you know.
And he starts playing.
You know, hello from Adele,right.
And then I'm like Bob, you know, all right, that's good.
But, like you know, when youshow up on your, on your zoom
(34:40):
session, and you're, it's 1201and there's eight people on the
invite and you're the only onethere, you know, like, and
you're wondering is, is thismeeting going to happen?
And the next thing, you know,you've had 15 meetings and it's
you know, 430 and you have,you've missed lunch.
You know what does that soundlike?
And then he plays, you know,comfortably Numb from Pink Floyd
, right, because it's just thiswhole like.
So.
(35:01):
And then I say Bob, that'sgreat, I'm glad that's what you
know listening sounds like.
Let me share with you what itlooks like.
So I'm excited now that we haveone kind of public rep under
our belt on that.
You know, keynote experience.
I want to do more of those.
I want to go on tour with Boband I and bring music and
storytelling to all of theleaders and organizations
(35:22):
looking to figure out how thatwe can create a culture of
connection and belonging in thefuture of work.
So that's what I'm excitedabout.
Sara Best (35:29):
Well, I hope this platform can connect you to
certainly some of our listenersand their organizations, for
whom their managers, supervisorsand leaders would greatly
benefit from having you presentand share in this unique, cool
way.
Mark Ostach (35:47):
Yeah, I'll share a link you guys can put in the
show notes so people can seewhat it looks like.
But, yeah, that's what I'mexcited about.
John Broer (35:54):
Please do.
I think that'll be great.
That's what I'm excited about?
Sara Best (35:56):
Please do.
I think that'll be great.
Mark, I just on behalf of John,and I both, and all of our
listeners, we're grateful for.
You know the synergy that wascreated by both your passion,
your interest and fate to bringforward the message, and really
it's not just what you say andwhat you write about.
I mean, those things areamazing and I want our listeners
(36:16):
to tap into that, but it'sreally who you are too.
I just want to say thank youfor having the courage to be
vulnerable and honest andsomebody that people can
absolutely listen to and relateto.
Mark Ostach (36:28):
Thank you, sarah.
I really appreciate that.
John, I appreciate you guyshaving me on.
I also want to give thelisteners a gift the new book.
If you Really Knew Me theSecret to Creating a Culture of
Connection and Belonging, I'llput a.
I'll send you a link for peopleto download an ebook version of
that book.
Sara Best (36:43):
Wow, thank you.
Yeah, and I hope they know whata gift it is.
As I mentioned, I've beensharing this with my clients.
I've been enjoying this bookdaily, so uh, thank you, mark.
Mark Ostach (36:57):
That's generous.
Thank you, sarah.
Thank you, John, I appreciateit.
John Broer (37:00):
Well, it's been great having you here and
everybody.
Check out the show notes and wewill see you next time.
On the Boss Hole Chronicles,like I said, timeless wisdom
from Kim Scott you can see why Iwanted to bring this back up
for a flashback.
So make sure you go into theshow notes and listen to part
two of that particular interviewwith Kim Scott and look at the
(37:23):
resources that are available,and especially her new book,
radical Respect.
Keep checking back to the BossHole Chronicles.
We'll see you soon.
A very warm welcome to all of our friends out there
in The Bossh ole TransformationNation.
This is your host, John Broer,and welcome to another
installment of The Bossh oleChronicles Flashback.
And let me tell you what theinspiration behind this was.
It's Monday morning, August25th, and I was actually looking
(00:26):
on LinkedIn and I saw our goodfriend, Mark Ostach, is speaking
at the State SHRM Conference inArizona, and I'll tell you what
folks in Arizona at theconference you're going to love
it.
Mark is amazing and he's been onthe program twice, but I wanted
to flash back to the first timehe ever joined us on the Bossh
(00:48):
ole Chronicles and this would begoing all the way back to
January of 2023, and it wasentitled.
If you Really Knew Me, Mark isan amazing presenter, author,
consultant, just a good person,and I think you're going to love
hearing from him again.
So let's jump in.
The Bossh ole Chronicles arebrought to you by Real Good
(01:14):
Ventures a talent optimizationfirm helping organizations
diagnose their most criticalpeople and execution issues with
world-class analytics.
Make sure to check out all theresources in the show notes and
be sure to follow us and shareyour feedback.
Enjoy today's episode.
Sara Best (01:35):
This guy's kind of become one of my favorite people
to follow.
When his e-blaster email comesinto my inbox, as it does on
occasion, with new ideas and newinformation, I stop what I'm
doing and I read it, because Iknow there's going to be a
lesson or an activity or anaction that will calm me, settle
(01:55):
me, help me get focused on whatI believe is important.
Before we get into all thestuff about him, let me just
introduce you to Mark Ostach.
Mark, welcome to the podcast.
Mark Ostach (02:05):
Sarah, thanks so much for having me.
It's awesome to be here and I'mexcited to keep people in the
John, what did you say?
John Broer (02:12):
Out of The Boss hole Zone.
Mark Ostach (02:14):
Out of The Boss hole Zone.
I'll try my best.
I'll try my best.
Sara Best (02:18):
Well, Mark, I want to share with our audience.
I had the privilege oflistening to you provide a
keynote, and you are one of thesmoothest, most charismatic,
easy-to-listen-to keynotes I'veever heard.
This was a couple years back ata leadership summit, and this
is really one of your mainplatforms is to provide keynote
speeches.
You've done TED Talks.
You've written two books.
(02:39):
We'll talk about both of themtoday.
One just released most recentlyit's one that I've been sharing
with my clients, but we'll getinto that.
You're a frequently featuredspeaker on USA Today, and the
topic, the subject matter thatyou talk about is very
specialized.
I would like to toss it to you,Mark, to tell us a little bit
(03:03):
about how you arrived as anexpert in digital detox, among
other things, and just tell us alittle bit about your journey
and what you shared today.
Mark Ostach (03:08):
Yeah, Sara, I appreciate you teeing that up.
So the space that I'm in and Ialways my ears get red when I
hear the word expert, because Ifeel like we all are lifelong
learners but in the space ofhaving a lot of experience in
digital wellness and mentalhealth, the two spaces that I
spend most of my day and lifeinto I found myself as a recent
(03:30):
college graduate with a degreein psychology, and I was lost,
like many other 22-year-olds arewhen they graduate, and I did
what you do when you're lost yougo back to school.
And I went back to school formassage therapy school because I
was really interested inworkplace wellness as it
pertains to ergonomics and kindof chair massage and those sorts
(03:50):
of things, and had a vision fora business that I was going to
launch in the corporate arenaproviding chair massages and
that bit that I, that vision,kind of uh collapsed when a good
friend of mine started atechnology company who I was
living with after college, so hehired me.
Actually, I worked for him forfree for about eight months
(04:12):
until we could go from twopeople to three people on
payroll, which was fun, and thenfrom there, for the next 10
years I spent in the technologyarena really becoming aware of
the psychology of technology.
So it was just truly by bothpassion and experience that
those worlds collided.
And while I was on the HR sideso I was in charge of hire I was
(04:35):
the non-engineer right.
Everyone else had thesetechnical degrees.
I was a liberal arts guyinterested in poetry and
counseling, which fit me great.
When we were hiring, we hired40 people within five years and
it was an awesome experience.
But in that experience Icontinued just to really realize
how what you do and view onlineshapes your thoughts, your
(04:58):
moods, your mindset and justyour relationships, and that
kind of focus became a bit of anobsession.
Just your relationships andthat kind of focus became a bit
of an obsession.
And I found myselfbootstrapping a technology
company that allowed you tobetter manage your time on the
internet.
This was 12 years ago and ourmission was to say if we can
show users and people how theirmood is impacted by the sites
they go to, then they'll be moreaware of the sites that make
(05:20):
them sad, mad, frustrated, etcetera.
Yes, so that was an awesome,awesome experience and that was
literally 12 years ago beforeany of the social media giants
tracked mood, kind of publicly.
That's where my central focuswas.
So just fast forward five yearsafter that technology company
launched.
It was one of those freemiumkind of things you know you
(05:43):
don't have to pay to play.
And I met my wife.
We were engaged.
She said this company you'respending a ton of time and money
into is not generating anyrevenue.
You should advocate for thethings that you're passionate
about, not just you know, sharetechnology solutions, and that
kind of was a pivot in myjourney on deciding to go into
speaking and writing as opposedto building technology products.
(06:06):
And fast forward to today, twobooks later, two kids later, two
dogs later.
It's been quite a journey, butit's been an awesome one.
Sara Best (06:16):
I'm just going to breathe that in for a minute.
Such an angle, such a nicheangle that has incredible impact
and maybe unconscious to many,many people.
Tell us about the ways that youfound success in I don't want
to say transforming or reformingpeople, but how have you been
able to help people see andconnect to the challenge and the
(06:40):
mood disorder and the thingsthat can happen from our
interface with technology?
Mark Ostach (06:45):
Yeah, great, great question, sarah.
I've got a 92-year-old mentorwho always tells me that simple
things unite and complex thingsdivide.
Very simple, right.
So I feel like what I've beenable to do is just share some
simple things that we need to bemindful of, and an example of
(07:05):
that is looking at our digitalcalories the same way we look at
our physical calories.
So we're all hyper aware of youknow you get things like
biohacking and you know peopleare like measuring out the
amount of grams or macros theyeat or consume.
But what does that look like asit pertains to your digital
life?
So that simple metaphor hasbeen used for a decade for me,
(07:28):
just kind of inviting peopleinto the dialogue.
So that's a, for instance.
I think another thing that I'verealized is that stories connect
.
So Sarah mentioned thenewsletter.
I send a story out a month andit's been really cool to be able
to, you know, just sharestories about not so much
traditional digital detoxinformation and things like that
(07:52):
.
I'm actually more interested inmaking sure the endangered
human connection element doesn'tget lost in the transactional
nature of our days, which Ithink going back to like uh,
getting you know, becoming aboss hole, which we're we're
trying to avoid.
It's really a it's really aby-product of, of burnout and
and a lack of feeling connectedto the things that bring you joy
(08:14):
and peace in your life.
And you can do nothing.
But you know, you know, swimlike a duck underneath all your
emails and meetings and yourto-dos and that pressure builds
up and next thing, you know,you're, you're, you're, you're
quacking at somebody or bitingthem Right.
So a lot of it's just helphelping to raise awareness on
how, how your internet behaviorsand how your digital calories
(08:37):
just impact your day Mark may Iask you make me think of you
make as a night?
John Broer (08:43):
Okay, so you have a 92-year-old mentor.
That's remarkable and what ablessing to have somebody like
that in your life.
And also that's somebody whowas around and working well,
well, well before the advent ofthe technology we know today.
Okay, I mean, there have beentechnological advances ever
since you know that person wasworking, technological advances
(09:07):
ever since that person wasworking.
But I've got to imagine,relative to managers and
supervisors, that on the onehand, the technology presents
itself as a great convenience,but it also can make us a bit
lazy around not investing thattime in one another.
In other words, it's very easyto just shoot out a text, an
email, a Slack response of somesort, when really it is better
(09:30):
served by picking up the phone.
And I mean, is that reallywhere you're seeing some of this
as well?
Mark Ostach (09:37):
Yeah, and just kind of commenting on my mentor
who's 92, started off his careeras a physician where he was
making $5.
patient visits like, house callslike with the black bag, you
know, going to a patient's housefor five bucks, so literally
not even fax machines didn'teven exist.
But kind of laddering that backto to to your, your question,
(09:58):
john, I think there's almostbeen um, and I feel it sometimes
too like there's been a fear.
Just to pick up the phone andcall somebody.
You feel like you're going todisrupt them, your own focus on
well, that's going to take 20minutes as opposed to the two
minutes that I could just dumpanother to-do in their inbox as
opposed to truly calling them.
(10:19):
So there's been recent researchthat shows like communication
preferences across demographicsand psychographics, and one of
the interesting things that cameout of that communication
research for me that I took awaywas how much people prefer
texting across like millennials,gen Zs, boomers, you know,
(10:40):
boomers.
That seems a littlecounterproductive to me, but in
the same breath I think one ofthe reasons why is because
there's not enough time in theday to make those phone calls,
or at least that's the storythat we're subscribing to.
I would push back and say it'sthe opposite.
You can get a heck of a lotmore done with a phone call.
You just might need to be boldand call people before 8am, when
(11:04):
they're actually available.
So when you and when you callthem before 8am, don't just go
right to the jugular of what itis you want.
Check in, acknowledge thebeauty of the sunrise that
you're looking at in yourcommute or out your office
window.
Try to find a common groundthat's rooted in some of the
beauty of which is the new dayin front of you, and then get
(11:26):
into what it is that you'relooking to get or take away from
that communication point.
Sara Best (11:32):
That's a good reminder to not be all business
but to foster that connectionand savor the things that we're
grateful for as we engage,Because the relationships we
have with clients and colleaguesand vendor partners and others.
they're really blessings If youlook at them that way, they
truly are time to highlight too.
(11:53):
You have a resource that I'vestarted sharing with all my
clients, which is a gratitudejournal.
It's a tiny little book ofwonder that you created.
It's a 14-day journey and notto shift gears radically away
from what we were talking about.
But let's pause for a momentand bring in this idea of
gratitude Tell us about theinspiration for this little
(12:15):
journal.
Mark Ostach (12:16):
Yes.
So, like many other strugglingwriters, I had a desire to write
a book and I had a couple ofmanuscripts that were starting
and stopping.
So then you know, god had kindof given me a vision for this
little incremental step towardsauthorship, which is this little
gratitude notebook, sarah, thatyou're referencing and I know
those that are listening can'tquite see it, but picture your
(12:37):
iPhone, because it's about thesize of an iPhone.
That was by design and the ideawas can you pick up kind of a
habit of gratitude before youpick up your phone?
So the hope is that it's a twoweek little challenge.
There's a quote on one side andthen there's a page for you to
write what you're worried aboutand then what you're grateful
for.
And the idea is is that if youcan do that for two weeks you
(13:00):
might shift some of that doomscrolling that happens first
thing out of bad before you'veeven peed or brush your teeth
and gotten into a little bitmore of a of a heart of thanks
and praise, which Sarah and Iknow and, john, I don't know you
as well as I know Sarah, butlike it is a we need to be like,
almost like diligent warriors,and how we are cultivating
(13:21):
gratitude with all of theheaviness of the world.
John Broer (13:24):
Amen, that is so true.
Sara Best (13:26):
Yes, yeah, and people can.
They can purchase this forthemselves, for their teams.
We'll put a link in our shownotes so that people can go
right to your website.
John Broer (13:39):
They're deeply inexpensive for the value they
provide.
Mark Ostach (13:41):
So I encourage.
Sara Best (13:41):
And it's funny because, how you described, you
know how this little notebookcame to be as a great segue into
the two things that I wanted tomake sure we talked about.
One is in 2020, you wrote abook that was designed to help
people build courage andconnection online yes, To really
become comfortable andconfident and powerful in their
(14:03):
connection with people.
And how timely was that?
Because we were in the midst ofa lockdown.
Tell us a little bit about thatbook and then we'll jump
forward and talk about yourlatest book, which again centers
on connection and culture ofconnection and belonging.
There's an incredible themehere, so tell us about.
Mark Ostach (14:21):
Yeah, thank you sir .
You know, it is all God's timing, and what you don't read
between the pages that are onthe back of the book of Courage
to Connect, which came out inJuly of 2020, was a very scared
child, and that scared child wasme, and the background behind
that was I had been building thespeaking business on the side
(14:42):
through a side hustle, using myvacation days and kind of
maneuvering my schedule to apoint where it reached a
threshold where I had tomaintain my integrity at my
current employer and say, hey,listen, this is what I want to
do full time.
Can we talk about a successionplan over the next six months?
They said absolutely, You'veoutgrown this role.
(15:03):
We see your future, Keep going.
Well, that was a great kind ofyou know come to Jesus moment
for me and confessing what itwas I wanted to do.
Uh.
However, that six month uhrunway turned into two weeks
when we lost our biggest clientthe next week.
John Broer (15:18):
Oh boy, oh wow.
Mark Ostach (15:19):
So I found myself in November of 2019 with this
kind of kick in the pants to getout into this sole practitioner
space to provide an income formy family.
And in that same week, myfather-in-law had passed and my
wife said listen, we've gotabout 45 days of money in the
(15:39):
bank, so if you're going to dothis, you have to do this.
Yesterday.
And she said I believe in you,but go.
So I went and I went hard and Igot some bookings and all these
sorts of things and then, as weall know the story goes, the
pandemic hits, all the eventscancel and I found myself like,
oh my gosh, what am I going todo with my life?
(16:02):
And in that space I got quietand I fought off a lot of the
anxieties and I was like, well,I need to finish this dang book
and I have the time.
So I finished the book withhelp of a friend and got the
book out.
While I was finishing the bookthis of a friend and got the
book out.
While I was finishing the book,this thing called zoom, you
know, became mainstream and then, from that point forward to
(16:23):
today, I've done nearly 200 zoomevents and, uh, it's been a
season of harvest.
So yeah, that's a little bit ofbehind the scenes of uh, of how
some of those things getbirthed.
John Broer (16:34):
And I don't want to step over a theme that I'm
picking up on, and that is thewisdom of your wife.
Mark Ostach (16:41):
You know what this is.
This is a.
This is a really good theme andI'll use this as an actual and
honest transition to share astory from a book, from the new
book.
If you really knew me, sarah, Iknow you mentioned maybe
sharing a story and this is agood timing.
But yeah, I have.
Uh, you know, truthfully,there's been a season of
resistance and my wife has hadclarity in a vision that she's
(17:03):
been given and I I've kind ofbeen like those 1980 TVs where
you kind of got to fix the bunnyears to see if my vision is her
vision and our covenant is onthe right path.
And uh, there's a story in thebook called honey in the rock.
In it is on the right path.
And there's a story in the bookcalled Honey in the Rock.
We hear the terms rock, bottomrock in a hard place, but we
(17:23):
don't really hear the termshoney in a rock.
So I'm going to try to makethis a two and a half minute
story, but it speaks to the workthat I'm doing through what's
called the Bell Method, and theBell Method stands for belonging
, empathy, listening and love.
So I went from courage toconnect, teaching people courage
and how to connect online andoffline, to taking all these 200
events and observations throughall these organizations to say,
(17:43):
okay, well, how do peoplemaintain connection in a hybrid
world?
And I just kind of got thisvision for the bell method
teaching, belonging, empathy,listening and love.
So in the new book each storyhas a reflection kind of corner
that says, after this storywhich element of the Bell method
stands out to you.
So that's how it works.
(18:04):
So back to Honey in the Rock.
We're going to renovate ourhouse, redo a kitchen.
I'm all excited.
Living in a little threebedroom ranch Life is good,
neighbors are great.
And we find ourselves at Lowe'son a typical date night and
we're about to sign for newappliances and new cabinets and
(18:24):
we end up pausing and realizingthat we just want to have a good
friend who does design work tocome over and double check our
plans.
That night we go home my wife.
We're emailing late at night.
She says, hey, look at thishouse for Sal and Zillow.
I'm thinking, what are youtalking about?
This is our forever home.
And lo and behold, she finds us.
I say, well gosh, that housesure does have everything we
(18:47):
need.
It's closer to the kids' school, let's check it out and that
began a period of do we love itor list it.
Well, 10 houses later I am likein the agony of like you know
what, let's not move, let's goback to the kitchen remodel.
And she is like prayingsteadily, fasting for like
clarity, and is this house foryou know, should we move?
(19:09):
So I say to her listen, let'sbe done, let's pause, market's
getting all funky.
She said, okay, but one morehouse.
So we look at this.
One more house.
It's on a dirt road, on a lake,two things we never even
fathomed.
And we found ourselves reallywith the peace of God.
In this house, kids wereactually for the first time,
(19:30):
feeling the presence of likeokay, this could be my room.
We have an eight andfive-year-old, so looking at
houses with little kids is oneof the most challenging things
that you'll ever do.
So, long story short, we findourselves putting an offer on
this house.
We put an offer on it highestand best.
The next day we find out thatwe are the runners up.
So we're feeling kind of theups and downs of the house,
(19:52):
hunting my wife, who is very,you know, a rule follower.
She decides to write a letterto the homeowners.
Writes a letter to thehomeowners, drops it off.
The next day gets a text fromthe homeowners saying your
letter moved us to tears.
We felt the spirit of God inyour words, praying that you
find the right house.
If it's not this one, you know,hopefully one day our paths
(20:14):
will cross.
If not, see you in heaven andit was this bold, like you know,
hopefully one day our pathswill cross.
If not see you in heaven and itwas this bold, like you know.
Communication back.
So that gave my wife hope.
That gave me a little bit oflike hmm, that maybe this is a
bit of a sacred experience we'reabout to embark on.
Two months go by.
The house sells.
My wife is like so focused onpraying circles around this
house she's literally droppingthe kids off and walking laps in
(20:38):
the neighborhood as if wealready live there.
I'm like eating sugary M&Mswith the kids watching Sonic 2
at the theaters and she's likeno sugar.
I need to have clarity, right.
So the house sells and we'redriving in the car on this one
day and we're like kind of.
You know, it's three days afterthe house sells and we have
(20:58):
this running joke for the lasttwo months.
Hey, did Amy call you?
Amy's the homeowner this, butthe people that bought our house
came to move in.
They purchased it over Zoomright 2022.
(21:20):
They never walked the house.
They came to move in with theircars and the keys they legally
own it and they said this houseisn't the right house for us.
We're going to put it back onthe market.
So Amy says I remember the cardyou wrote us you should get in
touch with their realtors.
They didn't put it back on themarket, they sold it to us.
A whole series of thingshappened, kind of that.
I'll spare the details.
(21:41):
You can read the story in thebook.
But it was this kind of divinecalling of like this sacred
house that is for us didn't kindof come out the way that I had
envisioned it in my mind.
I'm sitting in the home nowwe're four months in.
But you know, you know the bellmethod, my mind.
I'm sitting in the home now,we're four months in, but the
Bell method.
My wife and I had differentelements.
Right, she was listening, shewas totally listening, she was
(22:05):
feeling that God's whisper, shewas acting on that and I wasn't
right.
So here we are in the home fourmonths later and still a whole
bunch of growth.
I think that when you findyourself in situations of change
and new experiences.
Sometimes the growth can belike it can almost be so
intimidating or debilitatingthat you get lost in, in, in the
(22:28):
, in the wilderness.
So, yeah, yeah, anyways, that's.
That's a snippet from the book.
Uh, I thought that that was astory that came to mind today
Sarah and John.
John Broer (22:37):
I love that story and that is one of those stories
too, mark, where and it's notlost on you or your wife where
you have to pause and reflect onhis hand, not where we expect
it or in our timing, but that'sa hard thing to do in today's
world.
I mean, the world itself wantsto push us through and rush us
(22:58):
through so many thingstechnology to distract us.
But having that conviction andthe capacity to just just be
patient and listen to that stillsmall, still small voice,
that's just.
That's just a great story.
What a blessing.
That's awesome.
Sara Best (23:31):
Thanks, sean of the continued uncertainty that we
face financially globally.
We were all suffering to somedegree by all this, and some
much more than others, but wewould be remiss if we didn't
just acknowledge hey, managershave a heavy load.
Mark Ostach (23:49):
Yes.
Sara Best (23:49):
Managing up, managing down.
John Broer (23:52):
Sarah, can I dovetail on that?
Yeah, I mean that's the wholepoint of this podcast.
Yes, Sarah, can I dovetail onthat as long?
I mean that's the whole pointof this podcast is we just want
to encourage managers andsupervisors don't be part, don't
(24:13):
be the origin of the misery andthe suffering.
And you may not realize thatyou will see Mark's resources,
including the Gratitude Journal,but I'll also cross-reference
that episode that we did a fewweeks back about gratitude in
the workplace.
That's transformational workand, to your point, Sarah, in
addition to developing people,that's hard.
Sara Best (24:32):
Well, and there are a couple of things that come to
mind.
Mark, you know you are anexpert in emotional intelligence
.
You may not use that languageor that speak, but what you
promote and what you teach andwhat you share and how you live,
too, are things that helppeople develop a mindfulness, a
centeredness, a connection, notonly a social connection, but an
(24:54):
internal and maybe, in manycases, a spiritual connection.
And it's about meeting basichuman need, and I love that you,
in the very beginning of ourconversation today, talked about
simple.
Simple is the solution, Simpleis the way.
So how about for managers andsupervisors and leaders and
others that have influence overpeople to just remember
(25:16):
belonging?
Empathy, listening and love arepretty much all you have to
focus on.
Well, not all, but mostly whatyou have to focus on when it
comes to getting the best out ofyour team and creating the best
for your team, but it alsomeans that you have to find that
yourself.
Mark Ostach (25:32):
Yes, and I'll share kind of two references.
One, an additional thing thatmanagers and leaders can do that
will remove some of the burdenof like wondering how are my
people, you know who's kind ofquietly withdrawing in this
quiet quitting kind of movementand who is disengaged, and these
sorts of things.
And as you maintain, as youkind of get yourself as a leader
(25:55):
locked into that, thatatmosphere becomes very fear
stricken.
So there are two questions thatyou can ask your people that
you manage weekly.
That will save you a wholebunch of mental space and
they're super simple.
The first one is you ready forthis?
Sara Best (26:11):
Yeah.
Mark Ostach (26:12):
What are you working on?
And the second one is how can Ihelp?
Wow, what are you working onand how can I help?
That can be the agenda of your15 minute or 30 minute
one-on-one and on the on therare instances when they go into
detail on how you can help them, you now have meaning in your
(26:35):
managerial or leadershipresponsibilities.
You don't have to manufacturenew programs or systems or
processes for them to do theirjobs better.
Just ask them what they'reworking on and how can you help
and most times they won't needyour help, which will create a
little bit more space in thatone-on-one to get into that
relational side of therelationship that needs to be
(26:59):
fostered and nurtured.
That is going to make thatemployee or that person that
much more safe and comfortableand transparent with you when
the rubber hits the road onthings like growth or exit.
Sara Best (27:14):
I hear the ping.
The ping happens when somethingis spoken or shared and it's
like yeah, that.
And for managers and leaderswho have hesitation or concern
or think I don't have time forthat, we need results.
This is the avenue and themedium and the access to those
(27:36):
results.
Would you agree?
Mark Ostach (27:37):
Yeah, yes, I do, and I think, as leaders, when
you're feeling overwhelmed ordisconnected, the simplicity
almost seems too good to be true.
Yeah, workplace, and I'mnoticing this and it's totally
(28:02):
the level of discomfort for me,and I'm even just consulting
with organizations I'm notinternal to any one organization
, but like when you remove someof the bloat of the day of the
workday, with extra meetings andlong lunches and coffees all of
which I love, by the way Ithoroughly enjoy.
But when you remove those things, you're starting to find more
(28:22):
time in your day to let yourmind wonder on your significance
and your role and yourresponsibilities that have
shifted because you now havemore space.
Either you have more space oryou're even doubled up on the
video meetings and your days areeven busier.
It's one or the other, that'sright.
So the the the the part is,what I'm driving at is that,
(28:43):
like you need to kind ofreinvent your rhythms in this
new, new way of working, andpart of that requires exercise
and movement and things that aregoing to bring you more, more
of that like energy that you cangive to others that you maybe
didn't have the privilege ofwith your 45-minute commute or
your client luncheons thatalways had to be in person at
(29:05):
the one restaurant that took twohours to get your food right,
that's right.
So I don't know if you guys cancomment on that or how that
relates to you both specifically.
Sara Best (29:16):
Well, I think what you're talking about, mark, is
creating margin, and I knowthat's one of the at the end of
your book you actually haveprayers that you know you
provide on behalf of the readers, over the readers, if you will,
and one is for greater margin,margin to have to do more of the
(29:36):
things you love and the thingsthat fill you up.
So I think that's an inside-outjob too.
Most of what we're talkingabout here starts with awareness
and connection to what'sdriving us from the inside.
John, what are your thoughts?
John Broer (29:51):
Well, your question, mark, made me think of a number
of conversations I've had Ithink we've had over the last
couple of years.
Of conversations I've had, Ithink we've had over the last
couple of years, where someorganizations are saying, well,
you know what, we're going tohave people coming back to the
workplace and some are sayingwe're going to mandate that.
And when people start toevaluate and really look at the
cost of commutes, giving up orsacrificing time with family, I
(30:17):
think they realized that thatactually took away.
I mean this was not lifeaffirming it was not.
I mean I think they physicallyfeel that it was taking
something away.
It's like taking something frommy soul and my physical health,
my mental health.
I think that's why we're gettinga lot of people saying I just
don't want that anymore.
There is something more, andmore doesn't mean filling it
(30:41):
with more technology.
It doesn't mean jamming morestuff into that 45 minutes or an
hour that you have in themorning.
I mean let's not step over thefact that, mark, you have a deep
and strong faith, as do Sarahand myself, and when I think
there are people out therethinking there's gotta be more,
there's something else to.
(31:02):
You know, we talk about helpingpeople find meaning and
fulfillment in their work.
I think there's a hunger, andthat hunger is related to
something.
So when people say I thinkthere's something more out there
, the answer is yes, thereabsolutely is.
Mark Ostach (31:15):
Right, yeah, I will give a healthy confession.
Like I am in a season of marginand I'm having to learn how to
have it.
Like there's a lot of anxietiesand like habits and routines
that are like whoa like, do Ineed to do this?
And part of it's because wemoved out into the sticks a
(31:35):
little bit.
Whoa like, do I need to do this?
And part of it's because wemoved out into the sticks a
little bit, so I have a littlebit more time on my hands.
But then that goes back to likeall right, well, you know, 20
years into my career, you knowI've had this mentor for 15
years who's been just abrilliant person in my life.
It's like how am I starting togive more of my time?
Right?
And I think a lot of peoplethat find themselves whether
(31:57):
you're in the middle of yourcareer, whether you're
sunsetting or taking an earlyretirement or downshifting like
you have time on your hands andwithout intentionality behind
that time, it can drive you nuts.
That's right.
Sara Best (32:11):
It's the other end of the spectrum which is equally
stressful and challenging.
But you know, just eventhinking about your book, the
reflections and the opportunityto digest the content personally
after each story, I think wouldbe a great exercise for anybody
who's finding themselves.
You know we often refer to itas liminal space, which was
(32:32):
another podcast episode we did awhile back with Rick and Amy
Simmons podcast episode we did awhile back with Rick and Amy
Simmons.
I first heard about liminalspace from Father Richard Rohr,
who is just an amazingcontemplative kind of priest.
But it's this idea of you knowwe're in between, like what we
knew before doesn't existanymore and what is coming to be
(32:52):
is not fully known.
But, how can we settle in, youknow, find margin, capitalize on
the margin and and explore theopportunity that this in-between
space provides for us, and itdoes.
It does provide incredibleopportunity.
But I think the message thatyou're sharing today, Mark, is,
(33:13):
you know, like it starts withconnection.
It starts with connection toyou and connection to others,
and really all the other stuffgets figured out.
It does get figured out.
John Broer (33:25):
Well, Mark, what's next on the horizon for you?
What is right around the cornerthat you're excited about?
Mark Ostach (33:32):
You know, I had a chance to do a keynote last
month with a kind of aco-creator.
He's a piano player and I'vebeen.
You know, I'm a storyteller andI kind of have been getting
sick of my own PowerPoints,right, you know the typical way.
So I synced up with him and webasically have come up with a
(33:55):
new kind of style of presenting.
It's more on entertainment andwe go through the Bell Method
and we teach managers andleaders what the Bell Method
sounds like with music, what themethod could be like with
stories.
So it's just kind of thislittle like back and forth.
It's a little cooler than whowas it?
Dave Letterman and Paul, kindof the back and forth Paul
(34:16):
Schaefer, that'sman and Paul,kind of the you know the back
and forth.
John Broer (34:17):
Paul Schaefer, that's right, paul Schaefer.
Mark Ostach (34:19):
But like, for instance, you know, when we look
at the owl method for listening, right, you know, I say Bob,
bob's a piano player named Bob,what does listening sound like,
you know.
And he starts playing.
You know, hello from Adele,right.
And then I'm like Bob, you know, all right, that's good.
But, like you know, when youshow up on your, on your zoom
(34:40):
session, and you're, it's 1201and there's eight people on the
invite and you're the only onethere, you know, like, and
you're wondering is, is thismeeting going to happen?
And the next thing, you know,you've had 15 meetings and it's
you know, 430 and you have,you've missed lunch.
You know what does that soundlike?
And then he plays, you know,comfortably Numb from Pink Floyd
, right, because it's just thiswhole like.
So.
(35:01):
And then I say Bob, that'sgreat, I'm glad that's what you
know listening sounds like.
Let me share with you what itlooks like.
So I'm excited now that we haveone kind of public rep under
our belt on that.
You know, keynote experience.
I want to do more of those.
I want to go on tour with Boband I and bring music and
storytelling to all of theleaders and organizations
(35:22):
looking to figure out how thatwe can create a culture of
connection and belonging in thefuture of work.
So that's what I'm excitedabout.
Sara Best (35:29):
Well, I hope this platform can connect you to
certainly some of our listenersand their organizations, for
whom their managers, supervisorsand leaders would greatly
benefit from having you presentand share in this unique, cool
way.
Mark Ostach (35:47):
Yeah, I'll share a link you guys can put in the
show notes so people can seewhat it looks like.
But, yeah, that's what I'mexcited about.
John Broer (35:54):
Please do.
I think that'll be great.
That's what I'm excited about?
Sara Best (35:56):
Please do.
I think that'll be great.
Mark, I just on behalf of John,and I both, and all of our
listeners, we're grateful for.
You know the synergy that wascreated by both your passion,
your interest and fate to bringforward the message, and really
it's not just what you say andwhat you write about.
I mean, those things areamazing and I want our listeners
(36:16):
to tap into that, but it'sreally who you are too.
I just want to say thank youfor having the courage to be
vulnerable and honest andsomebody that people can
absolutely listen to and relateto.
Mark Ostach (36:28):
Thank you, sarah.
I really appreciate that.
John, I appreciate you guyshaving me on.
I also want to give thelisteners a gift the new book.
If you Really Knew Me theSecret to Creating a Culture of
Connection and Belonging, I'llput a.
I'll send you a link for peopleto download an ebook version of
that book.
Sara Best (36:43):
Wow, thank you.
Yeah, and I hope they know whata gift it is.
As I mentioned, I've beensharing this with my clients.
I've been enjoying this bookdaily, so uh, thank you, mark.
Mark Ostach (36:57):
That's generous.
Thank you, sarah.
Thank you, John, I appreciateit.
John Broer (37:00):
Well, it's been great having you here and
everybody.
Check out the show notes and wewill see you next time.
On the Boss Hole Chronicles,like I said, timeless wisdom
from Kim Scott you can see why Iwanted to bring this back up
for a flashback.
So make sure you go into theshow notes and listen to part
two of that particular interviewwith Kim Scott and look at the
(37:23):
resources that are available,and especially her new book,
radical Respect.
Keep checking back to the BossHole Chronicles.
We'll see you soon.
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