July 16, 2025 • 32 mins
We delve deep into the dramatic story of Abraham's ultimate test of faith when God commands him to sacrifice his beloved son Isaac.
• This narrative explores Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son after waiting 90 years for his birth
• Abraham demonstrates extraordinary faith and obedience without hesitation
• The Hebrew word "hineni" (here I am) represents Abraham's complete surrender and availability
• Isaac likely was not a small child but possibly in his thirties during this event
• Both Abraham and Isaac show remarkable trust and submission
• God ultimately provides a substitute sacrifice (a ram), establishing the pattern of divine provision
• The story foreshadows Christ's sacrifice and teaches about complete surrender
• Cultural context helps understand the story - child sacrifice was common in surrounding pagan religions
• Abraham likely trusted God would either provide a substitute or resurrect Isaac
• This story is foundational to three major world religions
Join us next week as we continue exploring more powerful stories from the Bible that challenge and transform our understanding of faith.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
My name is David Shapiro, hey,I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason
Holloway.
Hi guys, welcome back to theBoundless Bible.
How you doing, what's going on,how are you guys Doing well,
thank you.
Did you have a good week?
All good?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Really good.
Good, I'm glad.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Today we are going into the story of Abraham and
Isaac.
Abraham, the father of manynations and, apparently, many
children.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
So good All of them.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
That's it.
He had actually eight children,believe it or not.
Really, most people don't knowthat.
Oh yes, but we are going tofocus in on Isaac.
We're going to focus in on hisson that he had with Sarah.
His first son no on Isaac,we're going to focus in on his
son that he had with Sarah, hisfirst son his?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
no, he wasn't his first son.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Okay, uh, ishmael was actually his first that he had
with Hagar, um, but that's right.
But then he had, you know,after a long wait, around 90
years, uh, sarah finally gavebirth to Isaac.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Crazy.
I have hope guys it.
I have hope guys.
Ishtar's little brother I havehope.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
So we have a really interesting story here, because
you know the setup is reallyquick.
Abraham and you know Sarah,have a son.
Finally, this is the promisedson from God.
Yeah, have Isaac.
This is somebody.
When I say promised son, I meanwhen you talk about 90 years
hoping for a child and finallyhaving this child.
Yeah, the excitement, the lovethat was given to this child, uh
(01:27):
, and then the dramatic turn,the bum, bum, bum.
God saying, yes, you have tosacrifice your son.
Yes, the one that you love, theone you've been waiting for.
I want you to go up thismountain, I want you to
sacrifice your son.
Bring, bring this wood.
In fact, have your son carry itand we are going to char him
(01:48):
afterwards.
And this was a command given toAbraham.
And what does he do?
He doesn't, he follows.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
He follows through, he doesn't even actually it's
notable he doesn't say no, right, right.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
There's no indication that he hesitates.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
He just says okay, see you tomorrow.
It's pretty wild, huh.
He has this deep faith it's.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
It's incredible to watch the faith that that deep
with God, that he trusts.
It's a trust, it's, it's faith,into the point of trusting
somebody to know I'm going towalk this walk but my son's
going to be fine Right.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, I mean, it's not a faith.
I think I have to be fair, Imean it's it's.
This is also probably one ofthe most controversial stories
of the old Testament is whywould God even ask that, you
know?
So I think we kind of have tolike unpack a few things Like
number one why would he ask it?
And number two, why wouldAbraham say yes?
And maybe we start with theeasier of those two, which is
the?
Why would uh, abraham say yes?
(02:44):
And maybe we start with theeasier those two, which is the?
Why would he say yes?
And my, my first thought isthat he waited 90.
He was told he was going tohave a child, right, which was
all a ridiculous thought to him,and he waited patiently and he
got it, you know, and inobviously miraculous fashion, to
have a child with a woman whowas what?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
90, 100 years old 90 well past, right, you know age
right.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Well, I mean, so you're, you're in miraculous
territory already.
So he had a kind of seenfirsthand the miracles and it
worked out.
And he probably doubted for allthat 90 years, right, and yet
that it came to be.
So this time he goes.
You know what?
I'm going to skip the doubt.
Now again, I don't have thatkind of faith.
But like is that?
Do you think that's why he saidyes so quickly?
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I think and, by the way, just so we know, we're
referencing genesis 22, 1through 19 as a story uh, but
yeah, I think you're 100, right,I think you know abraham had
matured into this deep trustfrom his long walk with god,
right?
Uh, we talk about our walk withgod and I know how deeply my my
walk has been and my faith inGod is and my walk has not been
(03:46):
90 years.
So when you think about thatand you go, okay, if you're
maturing in age and you have a90 year walk with God one of
them, meaning that you know youare believing, okay, you said
Isaac was going to be born.
He's born 90 years later.
You know, I am going to havesome pretty deep faith, right,
and I think that his faith wentto.
(04:07):
I don't think he expected Isaacto stay dead.
I think that when he was toldthis, I think he said God
promised me this son.
Yeah, he's not going to takehim from him.
Whether he is going toresurrect him or whether he's
going to, you know, something isgoing to happen.
I don't think he expected Isaacto stay dead.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
No, I is going to happen.
I don't think he expected Isaacto stay dead.
No, I'm going to say, like, forme, I can relate, you know
we're, you know we're we'retrying to get pregnant and it's
been a while and I can say thatright.
But like I can relate to that,you know, and just trusting God
and knowing that maybe he willprovide that or not, I can
imagine for Abraham, 90 years ofmaybe, you know, waiting for
(04:45):
this to happen and then it does.
You're going, this is a miracleand only God could have done it
at 90 years old, Right, Right.
So your faith it's even more,you know, stronger and deeper
because of that.
And to say, yes, for Isaac to besacrificed just to be, you know
, like that's crazy.
But yeah, I think that I thinkmaybe what David said is right.
(05:09):
He's probably saying, okay, Ihave faith in you, God, that you
provided this son and if youwant to take him away, maybe
you'll provide another one.
So maybe there's that kind ofthing that he's saying like, all
right, well, you need this fora purpose.
So I am going to trust you andknowing that hopefully you'll
(05:29):
give me another son, because youdid say that I would have many
children.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yes, yeah, I mean, and his life is one.
Even from the beginning ofAbraham's life, he had been
called to do things and he haddone them.
So his whole story is aboutobedience.
Yeah, you know, he was calledto leave his homeland, right, I
mean?
So this is not the first time.
It's consistent with hischaracter, I guess.
Is what I'm saying, right, like?
Speaker 1 (05:52):
that.
And if you look back in Genesis17, 19, god extends this
covenant through Isaac.
So God and Abraham have thiscovenant.
This is a commitment on bothsides.
Have this covenant.
This is a commitment on bothsides.
And he extends it to Isaac,saying that the child Sarah will
bear again, not knowing thatthis is going to happen in 90
years, but the child that shewill bear, my covenant will
(06:14):
extend through him.
Yeah, I think that Abraham hasto, at this point, have some
sort of belief that he's goingto be okay.
If this is supposed to extendand remember the covenant was
he'll be a father of manynations, right?
How can you do that if yourchild is killed?
Right?
That's true.
So I think that he trulybelieved god through this long
walk and said if god says mycovenant continues through him
(06:35):
and I believe in the covenantthat god, you know, promised,
yeah, he's fine, I'm gonna havethe.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
He's probably thinking like take this one and
two comes out.
You know kind of kind of thing.
Who knows, right, like God isgoing to multiply and I trust
that that's a crazy thought, Iknow, like gremlins, I know.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
You're going to put one Isaac on the hill and you're
going to get two on the waydown.
Like that's pretty wild.
I never thought of that idea.
No, I mean, look, I think thestory and we also have to
remember Abraham is literallythe crux of three religions,
right, like he's not just, likethat's how big and bold his
story is and his faith and hisobedience.
(07:13):
And you know, we've talkedbefore about what is the Bible
about in the first place.
Right, it's about learning whoGod is, learning about the
character of God and also, moreimportantly, learning who we are
as humans in relationship toGod.
Yeah, right.
And so I think that in thisvery, very early phase of
humanity, learning who it is andwho it revolves around and
(07:36):
where it comes from this is astory of humanity at its base.
I have choices to make in mylife.
I can choose to do the rightthings, the good things, and
oftentimes, in order to build acivilization, the things that
are against me but are for agrander scheme, right, yeah.
Or I have the choice to beselfish and do me right.
(07:58):
I have those choices, yeah, andthe times that we see God most
clearly are the times when weare doing the good, the selfless
, the obedient, the.
I don't really know what'scoming next, but I'm going to do
it anyway, yep.
And to be faithful, andremember faithful doesn't mean
that, like I just love it, I'mhappy and joyful.
(08:20):
Faithful, right.
Faithfulness means I don't haveany idea what's coming right,
but I trust, I trust you, yeah,but I trust that it's going to
be better than where I'm atright now.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yes, right this is definitely a full surrender.
Um, even even through thismoment where he's having these
dilemmas.
Um, you know, there is he.
He uses the word hineni, okay,which, when they ask where you
are, he goes here, I am hineni.
Oh, um, first it's his it's.
When they ask where you are, hegoes here, I am Hanani.
First it's God who asks where heis, before he's asking him
where to go.
You know, hey, I want you to goup this mountain, I want you to
(08:52):
do this.
This is a readiness to serve.
Where are you?
Here?
I am, I'm here, I'm ready foryou.
Then his son, on the way up themountain, asks him where are
you?
He wants to know where his dadis.
And again he says heneh, thisis now, uh, kind of a
sensitivity to relationship.
He's still calling out to hisson, saying I'm still here, yes,
even though he's about to dothis.
(09:12):
Right, so it's a sensitivity,his relationship.
And then the final one is, uh,when he's about to do it, this
is now, you know, probably withtears in his eyes.
You know, where are you?
Right, here I am, with theknife in his hand, about to do
this.
This is now that spiritualattentiveness, this is that
ultimate surrender that he wentthrough everything.
This is that very moment wheremaybe he thought on the way up
(09:34):
the mountain, god was going tostop him.
Who knows where his brain?
Speaker 3 (09:37):
was at yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I mean really.
But this is that, that verylast moment, probably, tears in
his eyes, where god is againasking where you are.
Remember he asked adam and evewhere you are, that's right, and
they were hiding.
They're asking abraham and he'sgoing here.
I am, tears in his eyes, readyto kill his son for god's
command, with full surrender.
I mean absolutely beautifulagain.
(09:59):
Faithfulness, jason.
Faithfulness I can't evencomprehend, not even, not even
yeah, you use that like.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Here I am, and you called out adam and eve just out
of curiosity.
What was their answer?
When he called out where areyou?
It was the next step, but no, Imean when.
When he called out adam and eve, oh, what was?
What was their response?
Was it the same?
Speaker 1 (10:18):
well, they were hiding he goes, he goes, where
are you?
And and again it could havebeen thought of where are you in
your brain, where are you inyour mind of?
Where are you in your brain?
Where are you in your mindRight, or where are you Like?
Why are you hiding?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
But did they answer Hanane or did they?
No, okay so that's what I'mgetting at, absolutely not.
He's still takingresponsibility for the actions
of God, right when they'retrying to hide from him, and
this is the eternal struggle.
That's good to this day, youknow.
God sometimes says, where areyou and I go?
Not here?
(10:47):
yeah, right, that's true, I'mnext door right I you know, like
I'm hiding from god because Idon't I, or or I'm just like
pretending I'm still playingvideo games and not paying
attention to him.
Right, like I'm any number ofthings I'm doing not to call out
, like, how often does god callyou to do something?
You go, I'm here yeah,especially with.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah, especially with something so precious like a
child, right, like well, that'sthe I mean the ultimate like for
him to.
I don't think there's a biggersacrifice, right, so for him to
to say I'm here, I'm going to gothrough with this God, rather
than going, I'm going to runaway with my child you know for
you to, not for sure.
Or I'm going to continue toprotect and put this over,
covering on my child from anykind of harm.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I'm going to protect myself from the hurt I'm going
to feel.
I'm going to protect him fromthe harm he's going to feel and
the and the consequence you'regoing to feel.
He didn't do that.
This is this is, I mean.
I think that's why the story iswritten this way right, because
it's an ultimate, literallyultimate in its most final word.
Ultimate sacrifice, ultimatesacrifice.
It's ultimate, I should sayobedience Because there is not
(11:46):
anything.
He would have suffered from it,isaac would have suffered from
it, rachel would have sufferedfrom it, sarah would have
suffered from it, the whole clanwould have suffered from it.
And yet he said here, I am here.
I am here, I am because hetrusted that whatever was on the
other side of that veil wasbetter, was better.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Right Now, I think the other side of that veil was
better, was better right now.
I think the other question youhad is is even more interesting.
Um, I do, I.
I do believe that you know, wecan look at what a lot of people
say.
This is the foreshadowing ofjesus.
Yeah, isaac is carrying wood upthe mountain.
Um, it's the sacrificing of ason.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
So I think that there's the foreshadowing side a
lot of parallels, but but lotof parallels.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
But again, I've heard that a million times.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I do want to jump into kind of where your question
was, which was Look, the biggerquestion that any atheist or
agnostic or you know very Idon't know struggling Christian
will ask you or, to be real,every Christian should ask this
question.
Right, like, why would God evenask of that in the first place?
(12:48):
Doesn't that make God kind of aruthless dude?
Right, like it's a solidquestion and I think that's what
we have to address, becauseit's a hard one.
It's a hard one to address,yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
I like to think when Looking at that story, I really
don't think God would do that.
Now, I feel like, for thatmoment of obedience remember
this this is before the law.
Yes, right, abraham is havingfaith.
He's not doing these laws tohave a relationship with God or
(13:22):
just to show obedience.
This is the way he showsobedience to have a relationship
with God or just to showobedience.
This is the way he showsobedience.
So, for me, I just feel likethat was the testing, because
God does test us.
I feel like, and he's testingAbraham here, and I think that's
what it is, and we can see Godtesting us nowadays in our life,
and I pray that it's not asdrastic as this as far as having
(13:43):
to sacrifice your I don't, youknow, as far as having to
sacrifice your son, or you knowsaying like, and I, I hear these
stories, right, dramatic storyLike, why would God take away my
son?
Why would God take away my kid?
Right, um, and we see that,right, he, I'm supposed to go
before my kid, or uh, stuff likethat.
And I just feel like there is,um, something bigger there than
than God took this as a test foryou.
I think there's something waybigger than this.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Like I mean, I think I may end up contradicting
myself along the way of thisconversation because I'm still
wrestling with it too right, butone of the most important
things is the fact that this isAbraham.
This is the father of the restof the religion, and multiple
religions, for that matter.
Right, if you have to look atthis metaphorically and
symbolically, remember, abrahamwas born in Ur.
(14:27):
Is that what it was InMesopotamia?
The moon god was the god thatthey worshipped when he was a
kid.
Yeah, he was told to leave thatarea.
So try to hold this in metaphorland, right, he was told to
leave that area.
He was told that he will be thefather of things.
That's a whole lot of rippingaway your past.
(14:51):
It's ripping away your past.
It's ripping away yourfoundations.
It's ripping away your, thecore of who you are, and every
thread of your past in order tomove forward.
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Sure so far.
So far we're in metaphor, landright.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
So now he is out in the wilderness, as we've seen
many times, and he's got his,got his wife and his other son
and they're still trying tofigure out what's going on
because they're in thewilderness.
But now it's time for him tocut ties.
Cut, Not a pun right, yeah,yeah.
It's literally time for him tocut ties with his past and even
be able to sacrifice his future,because everything needs to
(15:22):
come out of him from obedience.
Okay, you starting to see whereI'm going with this?
Yeah, so now obedience, and Imentioned in the beginning, when
we started talking about this.
I think that the relationshipthat we have with God is that we
have to be more God-like in ourlives and less us-like in our
lives, and this is the beginningof that.
He had to be able to cut tieswith his family, his own child,
(15:43):
his history, his past.
This is the beginning of that.
He had to be able to cut tieswith his family, his own child,
his history, his past.
Yeah, this is the.
This is the full circle.
This is the beginning.
As soon as this is over,everything good happened, right,
like after the story, if I'mnot wrong, everything for
abraham goes better better right, nothing so dramatic happened.
Am I wrong about that?
You're looking I mean he liveswell according again.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
according to jewish tradition, after the threat of
killing Isaac when he comes down, this is the catalyst for
Sarah's death.
Okay, but, that's Jewishtradition or is that in the
Bible?
It's not directly in the Bible.
I mean, obviously we know shedied somewhere around then, sure
, but yes it is.
(16:22):
It's not the cause of it.
But the Jewish tradition saysthat's the cause.
But the cause is not in theBible.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
What I'd also like to say too.
I mean, I hate to put it thisway, but eventually people die
yeah yeah of course I don't knowif it's the catalyst right, but
I'll just finish this by sayinglike, I think that when we look
at ourselves, we know that wehave to, especially to be
Christians or to be anythingbetter than we are today.
We have to be willing to cutties with a lot of stuff in our
past and to the extent that wehave to do that is different,
(16:53):
but for him it had to be.
If he was going to be thefather of religion, it had to be
whole, it had to be total, ithad to be complete.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
He couldn't bring in any of his old life.
You brought up a good point.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
He can't bring any of his old life into it.
If he's going to startsomething entirely new, Entirely
new.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
He's the father, he's the patriarch right, he's the
guy, and I love that you broughtthat up, because it's like this
is like one of the ultimatesacrifices where God does it
himself.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, right.
So if I'm going to, am.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
I need to test you out to see this is going to
happen.
I wanted to go back and what Isaid.
As far as you know, I don'tknow if God is doing this now or
not, but I just it bothers meto know if that's the case,
right, if God is still makingsacrifices in this kind of way.
I just want to double down onwhat you said, jason, as far as
(17:44):
obedience, and I feel like Godand I think this is what I've
learned in my walk is my life isnot my life.
Nobody else's life is my life,like what I'm trying to say is
it's not.
I need to let it go to God.
Yeah, exactly, and I need totrust God that he's going to
handle that.
I don't have any children, youdo you guys do, might.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
He might ask you to sacrifice your work.
He might ask you to sacrificeyour best.
So many things not.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
I mean not, not so many things yeah, sacrifice,
like I need to let him go and go.
You're gonna handle that, god,and I'm gonna trust you with
that and I, hopefully, I'm gonnapray that you bless that.
Yeah, you lead them and they'dbe able to follow you, and that
goes for my, for my if I everhad children, for you guys with
kids, you know, and and justlike you said, work, and not
only that, but my, but myself aswell.
(18:27):
He could have asked Abraham I'mgoing to sacrifice you, I want
you to to sacrifice yourself forwhatever it is.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Right and he did it for Jesus and that's why I
brought and there was a lot ofsignificance there why he would
do it and there's a lot of,obviously, history of prophetic
reasons why we would sacrificehis son but he did it there and
why he would not do it toAbraham.
We have to sacrifice ourselvesand Jesus asks us to carry our
(18:56):
own cross, and I think that'swhat we see here.
We have to be willing to go.
I'm going to let it go and giveit to you, even my own life.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
I'm going to take a different approach just because
Can I just say one thing realquick.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
It's also really important to note he didn't make
him kill Isaac.
That's true.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
That's true, yep.
So you said you know, you saidhe continues to but you said
that he continues to.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
you know, sacrifice people and these things.
He never continued, he neversacrificed.
Asks to sacrifice, which isimportant because the question
isn't, it's never about thesacrifice, it's about the
willingness to sacrifice, yes,not never, okay, but no so.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
So my, my approach is a little bit different.
Is that's a good point?
Actually, you know, we look atthis as we're reading a story.
I always say this when we readthe bible we already know what
happens, we know the endingright, but they didn't.
Um, at this moment, uh, we'reeven assuming that abraham, you
know.
Hey, we know we know about Adamand Eve and stuff like that,
but we don't.
Adam and Eve was not writtenabout until Moses wrote about
Adam and Eve inspired by Godlater on.
(19:51):
So let's just take this guy,abraham.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
I never thought of that.
I never thought of that hedidn't even have the backstory.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
No, and Jason, you said it, you hit right on the
nail on the head.
He's got a different backstory,a different culture he's grown
up in.
I think, god, what he's doing,he's teaching that I'm the god
who's sovereign over life anddeath.
Yeah, um, not just this godwho's coming in and talking to
you and giving you a child,because they had different gods
that did different things.
I'm the god of all gods, incharge of sovereignty and
(20:17):
sovereign over life and death.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yes, um, and when you look at the gods back then,
they were requiring quoteunquote child sacrifice yeah so
I think, that I was going tobring that up, but so pagans did
at pagan gods at the dot atthat time did ask for that.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
God brought in a substitute at the last second.
So he's showing that this isnot required for me.
Yeah, but what is required?
And again he's teaching themthis because we know it, but
they didn't at the time is whatis required is a sacrifice for
sin.
Adam did sinned and I said ifyou sin, it will cause death.
Yes, he chose not to kill themin the moment they live the rest
(20:55):
of their life, but sacrificebecame very important.
There had to be a death a death.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
A death a Correct.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
So he is now teaching Abraham all of this First hand,
in this very moment.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Yes, Going back to the question of why maybe that's
what it was the culture askedthey were doing that they were
sacrificing kids or children.
And being that this is theculture, then God is asking I'm
just kind of doubling down whatyou said, david just kind of
like hey, I'm going to ask youto sacrifice your son, to see
(21:33):
what you do and follow theseother cultures.
And then at the end, right inthe end, he goes hey, no, that's
not the way you do it.
You do it through some kind ofsacrifice.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
There is a requirement of sacrifice of sin.
That that's what it is.
Yeah, we, we demand a sacrificeof death through sin which
would have been which.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
So this is what I was going to say earlier, right,
and it's a little harsh to say,but like we also have to
understand that every culture ofthe time, or almost every
culture maybe that we know of,right, yes, did require
sacrifice.
Correct, and it was oftentimeschildren and virgins, I think,
is what the concept or the, theneed was.
And so to realize a it was notsuch a crazy thing as it is to
(22:13):
us, like to us that's a bonkersthing to even consider, but to
them it was much more, it wasmuch more yeah, it was much more
normalized right.
Yeah, that's not to say it wasnice, wasn't to say that he was
like oh cool, I get to do thisright.
But they, they understood itdifferently and that does it
look.
It does take a little bit ofthe sharpness off that blade.
(22:34):
No pun intended at that time, nopun intended, uh, but it does
take a little bit of sharpnessoff it when you realize that,
like that's, this is also partof the reason why he was a bit
more willing to do it absolutelyright and he probably thought
and and look guys, even if hedidn't make sense, even if he
didn't believe that he was goingto come down with two, even if
(22:54):
he didn't believe that god wasgoing to resurrect him, he
definitely believed that god wasgoing to send him to a better
place.
Yeah, I mean right, and it's ahard.
Can you imagine the hard?
I mean let's, let's not get it.
This is a whole other discussion.
But like the life back thenmust have been the hardest of
hard.
Like you didn't have anything,it was fully non-technological,
like you probably had, you know,famines, constant, constantly,
(23:15):
no dental work.
Like life was hard, hard, hard.
It would have been a blessingto move into heaven quickly and
efficiently.
Right, like again, I'm notmaking it right, but I am saying
like cultural context orhermeneutics of context might
have not been the most horriblething.
So when somebody asks, why wouldGod ask that?
Look, we're offering a fewanswers.
(23:35):
One is because maybe it wasn'tthat bad, maybe it was a bit of
a prize, maybe, right, I don'tknow.
I didn't live then but I'mthrowing it out there.
But I want to offer somethingeven bigger than that.
I want to offer that I.
I would love to take credit forthis, but I can't.
But I happen to read this in cslewis problem of pain, okay,
(23:56):
recently, and what he says isessentially, if god would have
asked you to do it and god knowsall, god already knew he wasn't
gonna.
He wasn't gonna kill.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Yeah right god.
Yeah, going to kill, right God.
Already knew that.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
So so the question of why he would have asked is
because, uh, he already knew theanswer, so he already knew it
was going to be fine, right, soit's, it's just a question, it's
not actually now, but more thanthat and better than that.
You know who didn't know howthey were going to Abraham?
So the question wasn't for God,the question was for Abraham.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Yeah, as always, it's the posture of the heart.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
It's the posture of the heart, and that's what he's
trying to like yeah, and so thisis Abraham's proof to himself
at this point this is Godtesting?
not for the sake of being likelet's see what you're going to
do here, but it was becauseAbraham needed to be pushed and
to see that he could get throughit, and I think we all have
tests in our lives.
Whether they're God driven ornot.
I don't know, honestly, but Ido know that when you are able
(24:51):
to get through something thatyou didn't think that you can
get through, you are stronger inthe end and you believe more in
yourself in the end and youbelieve more in God's ability
and grace to help you getthrough the end, which is what
Abraham did.
Abraham didn't do it on his ownaccord.
Abraham trusted in God andthat's why he did it.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
So I'll deepen it even further.
And and this is why, um, welook at it as this is the
faithfulness of Abraham.
This is amazing.
Yeah, Um again, Genesis 17, 19,.
This is where the covenantpasses from Abraham to Isaac.
When you look at timing, whenyou look at the Midrash and the
Talmud, they actually estimateIsaac being not a little boy,
(25:31):
not a little child In his 40s orsomething, 37 years old.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I thought so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
And the reason they estimate this is Sarah's death.
She had him when he was 90.
They believe that she diedclose to when he came down off
the mountain and she died at 127years old.
Okay, um, so they're estimatinghis age to be 37.
So now you're looking at thisand you're going.
God knew the answer, yes, buthe wasn't only.
See, listen, he already had thecovenant with abraham.
(25:56):
He wanted to see if this wasgoing to extend to his son,
isaac.
Yeah, you're 37.
Yeah, are you going to trust inme, right that you're going up
this mountain?
You're going to be sacrificed,you?
Speaker 2 (26:08):
got to carry your own wood.
That's such a great addition.
You have to lay down.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
You have to be tied up and are you going to trust me
?
Because he doesn't fight?
Speaker 2 (26:15):
He doesn't fight.
No Right, he doesn't fight thewhole time.
This is one of those storiesthat is so beautiful and I
hadn't even thought of that.
I mean he didn't now granted.
Next time isaac wanted him, ornext time abraham wanted to go
hunting, he he probably said,yeah, I'll, I'll stay here, I'll
stay um, but it's such abeautiful story that he didn't
fight back did he?
Speaker 1 (26:33):
no, he did not.
And whether or not you believehe was an 8, 10, 12 year old boy
, or whether you believe he's a37 year old, right, it's still
somebody who could have beenlike uh, what's going on?
Speaker 3 (26:41):
Why are you tying me up?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
There was no struggle here.
It was also the faithfulness ofIsaac, who had not seen God for
90 years.
This is young faith, which heblesses well, he blesses
obedience, he blessesfaithfulness.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
He's another father of a patriarch of the faith.
In a sense, he's the father ofthe you know, a patriarch of the
faith.
In a sense, you know right,he's the father of the twelve of
the twelve different tribes,right?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
no, and this is.
This is one of the other.
Do you know?
I never put that together.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
What he becomes the father of the twelve.
Yeah, I don't know why, forsome reason those stories
separate in my brain.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
So the children came through through him.
Pretty much.
It passed well.
They did.
I mean right, yeah, I mean the,the, the, the, the multiplying
of what is it?
The?
The father of many nations isthrough Isaac, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Well, this is, this is the foreshadowing.
So you have Isaac, who is thefather of many nations.
You have Isaac, who'sdeuteronomy one of the laws of
wrapping tefillin um.
So he's, he had a wrappingcalled agada, which is the way
you wrap.
You bind your arms um, which isalso later on in deuteronomy,
(27:52):
when you're taught how to wraptefillin um, which is a jewish
ceremony of binding yourself.
Uh, this again, there's so manyforeshadowing moments going
through Isaac that, althoughthis is another one of those
stories where I say it might beabout Abraham, but maybe it was
really about Isaac, I mean itreally is, though I mean, and I
wonder if it's foreshadowing orif it's just the initiation of
(28:15):
right, like there's.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
I think you can look at it both ways.
You can look at it backwardsand go that was the
foreshadowing, or you can lookat it forwards and go that's the
first time we see it, and thisis the importance of it and this
.
Don't they have a like uh, whenyou're reading scripture,
there's like a law of first uhappearance, something like that,
like law of first appearance,where the first time you see
something, whatever context it'sin, that's how you're supposed
to read that word moving forward.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
That way you understand it Right.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yep.
So this is, this is the firstappearance of that Agada, and so
it means to bind yourself intotal faith, without questioning
yes, even when actually hedoesn't know he's going to die,
right, he doesn't know, he mightassume, but he doesn't know
because he hasn't been given therequest.
He's just going along withwhere the world is taking him
(28:59):
and where life is taking him.
Where his father is taking him.
Look at that him.
And where life is taking wherehis father, where his father is
taking him.
Look at that.
He's going along with where hisfather is taking him, truly,
faithfully, obediently, and heultimately becomes the father of
the 12 nations.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
but if you're, if you're abram you're and uh
that's wild being that age andbeing that many years of being
faithful and just seeing godmove in your life.
Um, he did promise and rememberthis God promises always comes
to fruition.
Right, it always comes.
It comes to life, right, ifyou're faithful.
God said to Abraham, youroffspring is really going to
(29:36):
come through Isaac.
That was a promise.
That's in Genesis 21, 12.
He said it's coming throughIsaac.
Boy, you're going to sacrificemy son Isaac.
No, I'm going to trust youbecause-.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Oh, he says that, he says that, it says that.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Before he went up to the mountain.
He says that.
So, as Abraham being faithfuland obedient, I'm trusting you.
God, that says this to me, toSarah, and I'm trusting you.
I'm pretty sure Sarah andAbraham talked, but you know, he
said so I pretty much hebelieves him.
He goes I, I'm going to believeyour promise.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
And I love one thing what a note, javi.
What a note, yeah, yeah.
So whatever, listen to whateverSarah tells you, because it is
through Isaac that youroffspring will be reckoned.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
So.
So part of the reason he walkedup that mountain Is because God
had already told him Isaac wasgoing to be safe.
Yeah, that's it.
Just trust me, my promise isalways going to come to fruition
.
It might not be in your time,it might not be in the way that
you want me to do it, but it'sgoing to happen.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
So in Abraham's mind, God is telling him one thing
and then he's telling himsomething contradictory.
And God believes he just trustsIsaac is going to be the
descendant bearer.
But take him up on the top andsacrifice him, and he goes.
You know what?
You already told me one thing,so I'm going to believe.
You didn't tell me he's goingto die.
You told me to take him up onthe top Right.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
I don't know how it's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
I don't know how, but I'm going to do it, and that is
what we all know, right?
We all know that God's asked meto do something and I have no
idea what's going to happen, butI need to just do it.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
But he always provides and that's what I love
about the mount.
And he provides a cliche thatwe all use today the scapegoat.
Yes, that's true, but isn't ita scape ram?
Wasn't it a ram I think we allkind of?
He identified as goat, yeah,Awesome, all right guys.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
This was enlightening , it was fun, it was enjoyable.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
We could talk about this forever by the way Like we
just scratched the surface.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Well, let's not forget, this is like 19 chapters
or 19 verses, like it's a whole19 verses.
We were talking about thisbefore we started.
Like this is the beauty ofGod's word.
There's 19 verses and becauseof all the surrounding
information, you could, youcould interpret and reinterpret
and and find meaning, and finddeeper meaning and find other
meaning.
Just so many, so many, so manytimes.
(31:53):
And uh, you know, this is justwhat makes it enjoyable, guys.
This is why we read the Bible.
It's not so we can get throughit, it's so we can learn from it
.
It's so we can get deeper intoit, so we can understand how
part A and part Z create part.
You know why and it's just justsuch a blast, guys.
So thank you for listening, asalways, we appreciate your time,
we appreciate your listens, weappreciate your likes, your
(32:15):
comments, your shares, we uhreviews are especially
appreciated on all the platformsyou're listening on yes, and we
hope to see you soon.
Thanks for another one.
Have a great week Later.
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
My name is David Shapiro, hey,I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason
Holloway.
Hi guys, welcome back to theBoundless Bible.
How you doing, what's going on,how are you guys Doing well,
thank you.
Did you have a good week?
All good?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Really good.
Good, I'm glad.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Today we are going into the story of Abraham and
Isaac.
Abraham, the father of manynations and, apparently, many
children.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
So good All of them.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
That's it.
He had actually eight children,believe it or not.
Really, most people don't knowthat.
Oh yes, but we are going tofocus in on Isaac.
We're going to focus in on hisson that he had with Sarah.
His first son no on Isaac,we're going to focus in on his
son that he had with Sarah, hisfirst son his?
Speaker 3 (00:46):
no, he wasn't his first son.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Okay, uh, ishmael was actually his first that he had
with Hagar, um, but that's right.
But then he had, you know,after a long wait, around 90
years, uh, sarah finally gavebirth to Isaac.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Crazy.
I have hope guys it.
I have hope guys.
Ishtar's little brother I havehope.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
So we have a really interesting story here, because
you know the setup is reallyquick.
Abraham and you know Sarah,have a son.
Finally, this is the promisedson from God.
Yeah, have Isaac.
This is somebody.
When I say promised son, I meanwhen you talk about 90 years
hoping for a child and finallyhaving this child.
Yeah, the excitement, the lovethat was given to this child, uh
(01:27):
, and then the dramatic turn,the bum, bum, bum.
God saying, yes, you have tosacrifice your son.
Yes, the one that you love, theone you've been waiting for.
I want you to go up thismountain, I want you to
sacrifice your son.
Bring, bring this wood.
In fact, have your son carry itand we are going to char him
(01:48):
afterwards.
And this was a command given toAbraham.
And what does he do?
He doesn't, he follows.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
He follows through, he doesn't even actually it's
notable he doesn't say no, right, right.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
There's no indication that he hesitates.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
He just says okay, see you tomorrow.
It's pretty wild, huh.
He has this deep faith it's.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
It's incredible to watch the faith that that deep
with God, that he trusts.
It's a trust, it's, it's faith,into the point of trusting
somebody to know I'm going towalk this walk but my son's
going to be fine Right.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, I mean, it's not a faith.
I think I have to be fair, Imean it's it's.
This is also probably one ofthe most controversial stories
of the old Testament is whywould God even ask that, you
know?
So I think we kind of have tolike unpack a few things Like
number one why would he ask it?
And number two, why wouldAbraham say yes?
And maybe we start with theeasier of those two, which is
the?
Why would uh, abraham say yes?
(02:44):
And maybe we start with theeasier those two, which is the?
Why would he say yes?
And my, my first thought isthat he waited 90.
He was told he was going tohave a child, right, which was
all a ridiculous thought to him,and he waited patiently and he
got it, you know, and inobviously miraculous fashion, to
have a child with a woman whowas what?
Speaker 1 (03:04):
90, 100 years old 90 well past, right, you know age
right.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
Well, I mean, so you're, you're in miraculous
territory already.
So he had a kind of seenfirsthand the miracles and it
worked out.
And he probably doubted for allthat 90 years, right, and yet
that it came to be.
So this time he goes.
You know what?
I'm going to skip the doubt.
Now again, I don't have thatkind of faith.
But like is that?
Do you think that's why he saidyes so quickly?
Speaker 1 (03:25):
I think and, by the way, just so we know, we're
referencing genesis 22, 1through 19 as a story uh, but
yeah, I think you're 100, right,I think you know abraham had
matured into this deep trustfrom his long walk with god,
right?
Uh, we talk about our walk withgod and I know how deeply my my
walk has been and my faith inGod is and my walk has not been
(03:46):
90 years.
So when you think about thatand you go, okay, if you're
maturing in age and you have a90 year walk with God one of
them, meaning that you know youare believing, okay, you said
Isaac was going to be born.
He's born 90 years later.
You know, I am going to havesome pretty deep faith, right,
and I think that his faith wentto.
(04:07):
I don't think he expected Isaacto stay dead.
I think that when he was toldthis, I think he said God
promised me this son.
Yeah, he's not going to takehim from him.
Whether he is going toresurrect him or whether he's
going to, you know, something isgoing to happen.
I don't think he expected Isaacto stay dead.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
No, I is going to happen.
I don't think he expected Isaacto stay dead.
No, I'm going to say, like, forme, I can relate, you know
we're, you know we're we'retrying to get pregnant and it's
been a while and I can say thatright.
But like I can relate to that,you know, and just trusting God
and knowing that maybe he willprovide that or not, I can
imagine for Abraham, 90 years ofmaybe, you know, waiting for
(04:45):
this to happen and then it does.
You're going, this is a miracleand only God could have done it
at 90 years old, Right, Right.
So your faith it's even more,you know, stronger and deeper
because of that.
And to say, yes, for Isaac to besacrificed just to be, you know
, like that's crazy.
But yeah, I think that I thinkmaybe what David said is right.
(05:09):
He's probably saying, okay, Ihave faith in you, God, that you
provided this son and if youwant to take him away, maybe
you'll provide another one.
So maybe there's that kind ofthing that he's saying like, all
right, well, you need this fora purpose.
So I am going to trust you andknowing that hopefully you'll
(05:29):
give me another son, because youdid say that I would have many
children.
Speaker 2 (05:32):
Yes, yeah, I mean, and his life is one.
Even from the beginning ofAbraham's life, he had been
called to do things and he haddone them.
So his whole story is aboutobedience.
Yeah, you know, he was calledto leave his homeland, right, I
mean?
So this is not the first time.
It's consistent with hischaracter, I guess.
Is what I'm saying, right, like?
Speaker 1 (05:52):
that.
And if you look back in Genesis17, 19, god extends this
covenant through Isaac.
So God and Abraham have thiscovenant.
This is a commitment on bothsides.
Have this covenant.
This is a commitment on bothsides.
And he extends it to Isaac,saying that the child Sarah will
bear again, not knowing thatthis is going to happen in 90
years, but the child that shewill bear, my covenant will
(06:14):
extend through him.
Yeah, I think that Abraham hasto, at this point, have some
sort of belief that he's goingto be okay.
If this is supposed to extendand remember the covenant was
he'll be a father of manynations, right?
How can you do that if yourchild is killed?
Right?
That's true.
So I think that he trulybelieved god through this long
walk and said if god says mycovenant continues through him
(06:35):
and I believe in the covenantthat god, you know, promised,
yeah, he's fine, I'm gonna havethe.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
He's probably thinking like take this one and
two comes out.
You know kind of kind of thing.
Who knows, right, like God isgoing to multiply and I trust
that that's a crazy thought, Iknow, like gremlins, I know.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
You're going to put one Isaac on the hill and you're
going to get two on the waydown.
Like that's pretty wild.
I never thought of that idea.
No, I mean, look, I think thestory and we also have to
remember Abraham is literallythe crux of three religions,
right, like he's not just, likethat's how big and bold his
story is and his faith and hisobedience.
(07:13):
And you know, we've talkedbefore about what is the Bible
about in the first place.
Right, it's about learning whoGod is, learning about the
character of God and also, moreimportantly, learning who we are
as humans in relationship toGod.
Yeah, right.
And so I think that in thisvery, very early phase of
humanity, learning who it is andwho it revolves around and
(07:36):
where it comes from this is astory of humanity at its base.
I have choices to make in mylife.
I can choose to do the rightthings, the good things, and
oftentimes, in order to build acivilization, the things that
are against me but are for agrander scheme, right, yeah.
Or I have the choice to beselfish and do me right.
(07:58):
I have those choices, yeah, andthe times that we see God most
clearly are the times when weare doing the good, the selfless
, the obedient, the.
I don't really know what'scoming next, but I'm going to do
it anyway, yep.
And to be faithful, andremember faithful doesn't mean
that, like I just love it, I'mhappy and joyful.
(08:20):
Faithful, right.
Faithfulness means I don't haveany idea what's coming right,
but I trust, I trust you, yeah,but I trust that it's going to
be better than where I'm atright now.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Yes, right this is definitely a full surrender.
Um, even even through thismoment where he's having these
dilemmas.
Um, you know, there is he.
He uses the word hineni, okay,which, when they ask where you
are, he goes here, I am hineni.
Oh, um, first it's his it's.
When they ask where you are, hegoes here, I am Hanani.
First it's God who asks where heis, before he's asking him
where to go.
You know, hey, I want you to goup this mountain, I want you to
(08:52):
do this.
This is a readiness to serve.
Where are you?
Here?
I am, I'm here, I'm ready foryou.
Then his son, on the way up themountain, asks him where are
you?
He wants to know where his dadis.
And again he says heneh, thisis now, uh, kind of a
sensitivity to relationship.
He's still calling out to hisson, saying I'm still here, yes,
even though he's about to dothis.
(09:12):
Right, so it's a sensitivity,his relationship.
And then the final one is, uh,when he's about to do it, this
is now, you know, probably withtears in his eyes.
You know, where are you?
Right, here I am, with theknife in his hand, about to do
this.
This is now that spiritualattentiveness, this is that
ultimate surrender that he wentthrough everything.
This is that very moment wheremaybe he thought on the way up
(09:34):
the mountain, god was going tostop him.
Who knows where his brain?
Speaker 3 (09:37):
was at yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
I mean really.
But this is that, that verylast moment, probably, tears in
his eyes, where god is againasking where you are.
Remember he asked adam and evewhere you are, that's right, and
they were hiding.
They're asking abraham and he'sgoing here.
I am, tears in his eyes, readyto kill his son for god's
command, with full surrender.
I mean absolutely beautifulagain.
(09:59):
Faithfulness, jason.
Faithfulness I can't evencomprehend, not even, not even
yeah, you use that like.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Here I am, and you called out adam and eve just out
of curiosity.
What was their answer?
When he called out where areyou?
It was the next step, but no, Imean when.
When he called out adam and eve, oh, what was?
What was their response?
Was it the same?
Speaker 1 (10:18):
well, they were hiding he goes, he goes, where
are you?
And and again it could havebeen thought of where are you in
your brain, where are you inyour mind of?
Where are you in your brain?
Where are you in your mindRight, or where are you Like?
Why are you hiding?
Speaker 2 (10:27):
But did they answer Hanane or did they?
No, okay so that's what I'mgetting at, absolutely not.
He's still takingresponsibility for the actions
of God, right when they'retrying to hide from him, and
this is the eternal struggle.
That's good to this day, youknow.
God sometimes says, where areyou and I go?
Not here?
(10:47):
yeah, right, that's true, I'mnext door right I you know, like
I'm hiding from god because Idon't I, or or I'm just like
pretending I'm still playingvideo games and not paying
attention to him.
Right, like I'm any number ofthings I'm doing not to call out
, like, how often does god callyou to do something?
You go, I'm here yeah,especially with.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
Yeah, especially with something so precious like a
child, right, like well, that'sthe I mean the ultimate like for
him to.
I don't think there's a biggersacrifice, right, so for him to
to say I'm here, I'm going to gothrough with this God, rather
than going, I'm going to runaway with my child you know for
you to, not for sure.
Or I'm going to continue toprotect and put this over,
covering on my child from anykind of harm.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
I'm going to protect myself from the hurt I'm going
to feel.
I'm going to protect him fromthe harm he's going to feel and
the and the consequence you'regoing to feel.
He didn't do that.
This is this is, I mean.
I think that's why the story iswritten this way right, because
it's an ultimate, literallyultimate in its most final word.
Ultimate sacrifice, ultimatesacrifice.
It's ultimate, I should sayobedience Because there is not
(11:46):
anything.
He would have suffered from it,isaac would have suffered from
it, rachel would have sufferedfrom it, sarah would have
suffered from it, the whole clanwould have suffered from it.
And yet he said here, I am here.
I am here, I am because hetrusted that whatever was on the
other side of that veil wasbetter, was better.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Right Now, I think the other side of that veil was
better, was better right now.
I think the other question youhad is is even more interesting.
Um, I do, I.
I do believe that you know, wecan look at what a lot of people
say.
This is the foreshadowing ofjesus.
Yeah, isaac is carrying wood upthe mountain.
Um, it's the sacrificing of ason.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
So I think that there's the foreshadowing side a
lot of parallels, but but lotof parallels.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
But again, I've heard that a million times.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I do want to jump into kind of where your question
was, which was Look, the biggerquestion that any atheist or
agnostic or you know very Idon't know struggling Christian
will ask you or, to be real,every Christian should ask this
question.
Right, like, why would God evenask of that in the first place?
(12:48):
Doesn't that make God kind of aruthless dude?
Right, like it's a solidquestion and I think that's what
we have to address, becauseit's a hard one.
It's a hard one to address,yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
I like to think when Looking at that story, I really
don't think God would do that.
Now, I feel like, for thatmoment of obedience remember
this this is before the law.
Yes, right, abraham is havingfaith.
He's not doing these laws tohave a relationship with God or
(13:22):
just to show obedience.
This is the way he showsobedience to have a relationship
with God or just to showobedience.
This is the way he showsobedience.
So, for me, I just feel likethat was the testing, because
God does test us.
I feel like, and he's testingAbraham here, and I think that's
what it is, and we can see Godtesting us nowadays in our life,
and I pray that it's not asdrastic as this as far as having
(13:43):
to sacrifice your I don't, youknow, as far as having to
sacrifice your son, or you knowsaying like, and I, I hear these
stories, right, dramatic storyLike, why would God take away my
son?
Why would God take away my kid?
Right, um, and we see that,right, he, I'm supposed to go
before my kid, or uh, stuff likethat.
And I just feel like there is,um, something bigger there than
than God took this as a test foryou.
I think there's something waybigger than this.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Like I mean, I think I may end up contradicting
myself along the way of thisconversation because I'm still
wrestling with it too right, butone of the most important
things is the fact that this isAbraham.
This is the father of the restof the religion, and multiple
religions, for that matter.
Right, if you have to look atthis metaphorically and
symbolically, remember, abrahamwas born in Ur.
(14:27):
Is that what it was InMesopotamia?
The moon god was the god thatthey worshipped when he was a
kid.
Yeah, he was told to leave thatarea.
So try to hold this in metaphorland, right, he was told to
leave that area.
He was told that he will be thefather of things.
That's a whole lot of rippingaway your past.
(14:51):
It's ripping away your past.
It's ripping away yourfoundations.
It's ripping away your, thecore of who you are, and every
thread of your past in order tomove forward.
Right.
Speaker 3 (14:58):
Sure so far.
So far we're in metaphor, landright.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
So now he is out in the wilderness, as we've seen
many times, and he's got his,got his wife and his other son
and they're still trying tofigure out what's going on
because they're in thewilderness.
But now it's time for him tocut ties.
Cut, Not a pun right, yeah,yeah.
It's literally time for him tocut ties with his past and even
be able to sacrifice his future,because everything needs to
(15:22):
come out of him from obedience.
Okay, you starting to see whereI'm going with this?
Yeah, so now obedience, and Imentioned in the beginning, when
we started talking about this.
I think that the relationshipthat we have with God is that we
have to be more God-like in ourlives and less us-like in our
lives, and this is the beginningof that.
He had to be able to cut tieswith his family, his own child,
(15:43):
his history, his past.
This is the beginning of that.
He had to be able to cut tieswith his family, his own child,
his history, his past.
Yeah, this is the.
This is the full circle.
This is the beginning.
As soon as this is over,everything good happened, right,
like after the story, if I'mnot wrong, everything for
abraham goes better better right, nothing so dramatic happened.
Am I wrong about that?
You're looking I mean he liveswell according again.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
according to jewish tradition, after the threat of
killing Isaac when he comes down, this is the catalyst for
Sarah's death.
Okay, but, that's Jewishtradition or is that in the
Bible?
It's not directly in the Bible.
I mean, obviously we know shedied somewhere around then, sure
, but yes it is.
(16:22):
It's not the cause of it.
But the Jewish tradition saysthat's the cause.
But the cause is not in theBible.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
What I'd also like to say too.
I mean, I hate to put it thisway, but eventually people die
yeah yeah of course I don't knowif it's the catalyst right, but
I'll just finish this by sayinglike, I think that when we look
at ourselves, we know that wehave to, especially to be
Christians or to be anythingbetter than we are today.
We have to be willing to cutties with a lot of stuff in our
past and to the extent that wehave to do that is different,
(16:53):
but for him it had to be.
If he was going to be thefather of religion, it had to be
whole, it had to be total, ithad to be complete.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
He couldn't bring in any of his old life.
You brought up a good point.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
He can't bring any of his old life into it.
If he's going to startsomething entirely new, Entirely
new.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
He's the father, he's the patriarch right, he's the
guy, and I love that you broughtthat up, because it's like this
is like one of the ultimatesacrifices where God does it
himself.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Yeah, right.
So if I'm going to, am.
Speaker 3 (17:22):
I need to test you out to see this is going to
happen.
I wanted to go back and what Isaid.
As far as you know, I don'tknow if God is doing this now or
not, but I just it bothers meto know if that's the case,
right, if God is still makingsacrifices in this kind of way.
I just want to double down onwhat you said, jason, as far as
(17:44):
obedience, and I feel like Godand I think this is what I've
learned in my walk is my life isnot my life.
Nobody else's life is my life,like what I'm trying to say is
it's not.
I need to let it go to God.
Yeah, exactly, and I need totrust God that he's going to
handle that.
I don't have any children, youdo you guys do, might.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
He might ask you to sacrifice your work.
He might ask you to sacrificeyour best.
So many things not.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
I mean not, not so many things yeah, sacrifice,
like I need to let him go and go.
You're gonna handle that, god,and I'm gonna trust you with
that and I, hopefully, I'm gonnapray that you bless that.
Yeah, you lead them and they'dbe able to follow you, and that
goes for my, for my if I everhad children, for you guys with
kids, you know, and and justlike you said, work, and not
only that, but my, but myself aswell.
(18:27):
He could have asked Abraham I'mgoing to sacrifice you, I want
you to to sacrifice yourself forwhatever it is.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
You know what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
Right and he did it for Jesus and that's why I
brought and there was a lot ofsignificance there why he would
do it and there's a lot of,obviously, history of prophetic
reasons why we would sacrificehis son but he did it there and
why he would not do it toAbraham.
We have to sacrifice ourselvesand Jesus asks us to carry our
(18:56):
own cross, and I think that'swhat we see here.
We have to be willing to go.
I'm going to let it go and giveit to you, even my own life.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
I'm going to take a different approach just because
Can I just say one thing realquick.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
It's also really important to note he didn't make
him kill Isaac.
That's true.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
That's true, yep.
So you said you know, you saidhe continues to but you said
that he continues to.
Speaker 2 (19:16):
you know, sacrifice people and these things.
He never continued, he neversacrificed.
Asks to sacrifice, which isimportant because the question
isn't, it's never about thesacrifice, it's about the
willingness to sacrifice, yes,not never, okay, but no so.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
So my, my approach is a little bit different.
Is that's a good point?
Actually, you know, we look atthis as we're reading a story.
I always say this when we readthe bible we already know what
happens, we know the endingright, but they didn't.
Um, at this moment, uh, we'reeven assuming that abraham, you
know.
Hey, we know we know about Adamand Eve and stuff like that,
but we don't.
Adam and Eve was not writtenabout until Moses wrote about
Adam and Eve inspired by Godlater on.
(19:51):
So let's just take this guy,abraham.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
I never thought of that.
I never thought of that hedidn't even have the backstory.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
No, and Jason, you said it, you hit right on the
nail on the head.
He's got a different backstory,a different culture he's grown
up in.
I think, god, what he's doing,he's teaching that I'm the god
who's sovereign over life anddeath.
Yeah, um, not just this godwho's coming in and talking to
you and giving you a child,because they had different gods
that did different things.
I'm the god of all gods, incharge of sovereignty and
(20:17):
sovereign over life and death.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Yes, um, and when you look at the gods back then,
they were requiring quoteunquote child sacrifice yeah so
I think, that I was going tobring that up, but so pagans did
at pagan gods at the dot atthat time did ask for that.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
God brought in a substitute at the last second.
So he's showing that this isnot required for me.
Yeah, but what is required?
And again he's teaching themthis because we know it, but
they didn't at the time is whatis required is a sacrifice for
sin.
Adam did sinned and I said ifyou sin, it will cause death.
Yes, he chose not to kill themin the moment they live the rest
(20:55):
of their life, but sacrificebecame very important.
There had to be a death a death.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
A death a Correct.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
So he is now teaching Abraham all of this First hand,
in this very moment.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Yes, Going back to the question of why maybe that's
what it was the culture askedthey were doing that they were
sacrificing kids or children.
And being that this is theculture, then God is asking I'm
just kind of doubling down whatyou said, david just kind of
like hey, I'm going to ask youto sacrifice your son, to see
(21:33):
what you do and follow theseother cultures.
And then at the end, right inthe end, he goes hey, no, that's
not the way you do it.
You do it through some kind ofsacrifice.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
There is a requirement of sacrifice of sin.
That that's what it is.
Yeah, we, we demand a sacrificeof death through sin which
would have been which.
Speaker 2 (21:51):
So this is what I was going to say earlier, right,
and it's a little harsh to say,but like we also have to
understand that every culture ofthe time, or almost every
culture maybe that we know of,right, yes, did require
sacrifice.
Correct, and it was oftentimeschildren and virgins, I think,
is what the concept or the, theneed was.
And so to realize a it was notsuch a crazy thing as it is to
(22:13):
us, like to us that's a bonkersthing to even consider, but to
them it was much more, it wasmuch more yeah, it was much more
normalized right.
Yeah, that's not to say it wasnice, wasn't to say that he was
like oh cool, I get to do thisright.
But they, they understood itdifferently and that does it
look.
It does take a little bit ofthe sharpness off that blade.
(22:34):
No pun intended at that time, nopun intended, uh, but it does
take a little bit of sharpnessoff it when you realize that,
like that's, this is also partof the reason why he was a bit
more willing to do it absolutelyright and he probably thought
and and look guys, even if hedidn't make sense, even if he
didn't believe that he was goingto come down with two, even if
(22:54):
he didn't believe that god wasgoing to resurrect him, he
definitely believed that god wasgoing to send him to a better
place.
Yeah, I mean right, and it's ahard.
Can you imagine the hard?
I mean let's, let's not get it.
This is a whole other discussion.
But like the life back thenmust have been the hardest of
hard.
Like you didn't have anything,it was fully non-technological,
like you probably had, you know,famines, constant, constantly,
(23:15):
no dental work.
Like life was hard, hard, hard.
It would have been a blessingto move into heaven quickly and
efficiently.
Right, like again, I'm notmaking it right, but I am saying
like cultural context orhermeneutics of context might
have not been the most horriblething.
So when somebody asks, why wouldGod ask that?
Look, we're offering a fewanswers.
(23:35):
One is because maybe it wasn'tthat bad, maybe it was a bit of
a prize, maybe, right, I don'tknow.
I didn't live then but I'mthrowing it out there.
But I want to offer somethingeven bigger than that.
I want to offer that I.
I would love to take credit forthis, but I can't.
But I happen to read this in cslewis problem of pain, okay,
(23:56):
recently, and what he says isessentially, if god would have
asked you to do it and god knowsall, god already knew he wasn't
gonna.
He wasn't gonna kill.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Yeah right god.
Yeah, going to kill, right God.
Already knew that.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
So so the question of why he would have asked is
because, uh, he already knew theanswer, so he already knew it
was going to be fine, right, soit's, it's just a question, it's
not actually now, but more thanthat and better than that.
You know who didn't know howthey were going to Abraham?
So the question wasn't for God,the question was for Abraham.
Speaker 3 (24:26):
Yeah, as always, it's the posture of the heart.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
It's the posture of the heart, and that's what he's
trying to like yeah, and so thisis Abraham's proof to himself
at this point this is Godtesting?
not for the sake of being likelet's see what you're going to
do here, but it was becauseAbraham needed to be pushed and
to see that he could get throughit, and I think we all have
tests in our lives.
Whether they're God driven ornot.
I don't know, honestly, but Ido know that when you are able
(24:51):
to get through something thatyou didn't think that you can
get through, you are stronger inthe end and you believe more in
yourself in the end and youbelieve more in God's ability
and grace to help you getthrough the end, which is what
Abraham did.
Abraham didn't do it on his ownaccord.
Abraham trusted in God andthat's why he did it.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
So I'll deepen it even further.
And and this is why, um, welook at it as this is the
faithfulness of Abraham.
This is amazing.
Yeah, Um again, Genesis 17, 19,.
This is where the covenantpasses from Abraham to Isaac.
When you look at timing, whenyou look at the Midrash and the
Talmud, they actually estimateIsaac being not a little boy,
(25:31):
not a little child In his 40s orsomething, 37 years old.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I thought so yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
And the reason they estimate this is Sarah's death.
She had him when he was 90.
They believe that she diedclose to when he came down off
the mountain and she died at 127years old.
Okay, um, so they're estimatinghis age to be 37.
So now you're looking at thisand you're going.
God knew the answer, yes, buthe wasn't only.
See, listen, he already had thecovenant with abraham.
(25:56):
He wanted to see if this wasgoing to extend to his son,
isaac.
Yeah, you're 37.
Yeah, are you going to trust inme, right that you're going up
this mountain?
You're going to be sacrificed,you?
Speaker 2 (26:08):
got to carry your own wood.
That's such a great addition.
You have to lay down.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
You have to be tied up and are you going to trust me
?
Because he doesn't fight?
Speaker 2 (26:15):
He doesn't fight.
No Right, he doesn't fight thewhole time.
This is one of those storiesthat is so beautiful and I
hadn't even thought of that.
I mean he didn't now granted.
Next time isaac wanted him, ornext time abraham wanted to go
hunting, he he probably said,yeah, I'll, I'll stay here, I'll
stay um, but it's such abeautiful story that he didn't
fight back did he?
Speaker 1 (26:33):
no, he did not.
And whether or not you believehe was an 8, 10, 12 year old boy
, or whether you believe he's a37 year old, right, it's still
somebody who could have beenlike uh, what's going on?
Speaker 3 (26:41):
Why are you tying me up?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
There was no struggle here.
It was also the faithfulness ofIsaac, who had not seen God for
90 years.
This is young faith, which heblesses well, he blesses
obedience, he blessesfaithfulness.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
He's another father of a patriarch of the faith.
In a sense, he's the father ofthe you know, a patriarch of the
faith.
In a sense, you know right,he's the father of the twelve of
the twelve different tribes,right?
Speaker 1 (27:08):
no, and this is.
This is one of the other.
Do you know?
I never put that together.
Speaker 2 (27:12):
What he becomes the father of the twelve.
Yeah, I don't know why, forsome reason those stories
separate in my brain.
Speaker 3 (27:17):
So the children came through through him.
Pretty much.
It passed well.
They did.
I mean right, yeah, I mean the,the, the, the, the multiplying
of what is it?
The?
The father of many nations isthrough Isaac, yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
Well, this is, this is the foreshadowing.
So you have Isaac, who is thefather of many nations.
You have Isaac, who'sdeuteronomy one of the laws of
wrapping tefillin um.
So he's, he had a wrappingcalled agada, which is the way
you wrap.
You bind your arms um, which isalso later on in deuteronomy,
(27:52):
when you're taught how to wraptefillin um, which is a jewish
ceremony of binding yourself.
Uh, this again, there's so manyforeshadowing moments going
through Isaac that, althoughthis is another one of those
stories where I say it might beabout Abraham, but maybe it was
really about Isaac, I mean itreally is, though I mean, and I
wonder if it's foreshadowing orif it's just the initiation of
(28:15):
right, like there's.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
I think you can look at it both ways.
You can look at it backwardsand go that was the
foreshadowing, or you can lookat it forwards and go that's the
first time we see it, and thisis the importance of it and this
.
Don't they have a like uh, whenyou're reading scripture,
there's like a law of first uhappearance, something like that,
like law of first appearance,where the first time you see
something, whatever context it'sin, that's how you're supposed
to read that word moving forward.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
That way you understand it Right.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yep.
So this is, this is the firstappearance of that Agada, and so
it means to bind yourself intotal faith, without questioning
yes, even when actually hedoesn't know he's going to die,
right, he doesn't know, he mightassume, but he doesn't know
because he hasn't been given therequest.
He's just going along withwhere the world is taking him
(28:59):
and where life is taking him.
Where his father is taking him.
Look at that him.
And where life is taking wherehis father, where his father is
taking him.
Look at that.
He's going along with where hisfather is taking him, truly,
faithfully, obediently, and heultimately becomes the father of
the 12 nations.
Speaker 3 (29:12):
but if you're, if you're abram you're and uh
that's wild being that age andbeing that many years of being
faithful and just seeing godmove in your life.
Um, he did promise and rememberthis God promises always comes
to fruition.
Right, it always comes.
It comes to life, right, ifyou're faithful.
God said to Abraham, youroffspring is really going to
(29:36):
come through Isaac.
That was a promise.
That's in Genesis 21, 12.
He said it's coming throughIsaac.
Boy, you're going to sacrificemy son Isaac.
No, I'm going to trust youbecause-.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Oh, he says that, he says that, it says that.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
Before he went up to the mountain.
He says that.
So, as Abraham being faithfuland obedient, I'm trusting you.
God, that says this to me, toSarah, and I'm trusting you.
I'm pretty sure Sarah andAbraham talked, but you know, he
said so I pretty much hebelieves him.
He goes I, I'm going to believeyour promise.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
And I love one thing what a note, javi.
What a note, yeah, yeah.
So whatever, listen to whateverSarah tells you, because it is
through Isaac that youroffspring will be reckoned.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
So.
So part of the reason he walkedup that mountain Is because God
had already told him Isaac wasgoing to be safe.
Yeah, that's it.
Just trust me, my promise isalways going to come to fruition
.
It might not be in your time,it might not be in the way that
you want me to do it, but it'sgoing to happen.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
So in Abraham's mind, God is telling him one thing
and then he's telling himsomething contradictory.
And God believes he just trustsIsaac is going to be the
descendant bearer.
But take him up on the top andsacrifice him, and he goes.
You know what?
You already told me one thing,so I'm going to believe.
You didn't tell me he's goingto die.
You told me to take him up onthe top Right.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
I don't know how it's going to happen.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
I don't know how, but I'm going to do it, and that is
what we all know, right?
We all know that God's asked meto do something and I have no
idea what's going to happen, butI need to just do it.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
But he always provides and that's what I love
about the mount.
And he provides a cliche thatwe all use today the scapegoat.
Yes, that's true, but isn't ita scape ram?
Wasn't it a ram I think we allkind of?
He identified as goat, yeah,Awesome, all right guys.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
This was enlightening , it was fun, it was enjoyable.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
We could talk about this forever by the way Like we
just scratched the surface.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Well, let's not forget, this is like 19 chapters
or 19 verses, like it's a whole19 verses.
We were talking about thisbefore we started.
Like this is the beauty ofGod's word.
There's 19 verses and becauseof all the surrounding
information, you could, youcould interpret and reinterpret
and and find meaning, and finddeeper meaning and find other
meaning.
Just so many, so many, so manytimes.
(31:53):
And uh, you know, this is justwhat makes it enjoyable, guys.
This is why we read the Bible.
It's not so we can get throughit, it's so we can learn from it
.
It's so we can get deeper intoit, so we can understand how
part A and part Z create part.
You know why and it's just justsuch a blast, guys.
So thank you for listening, asalways, we appreciate your time,
we appreciate your listens, weappreciate your likes, your
(32:15):
comments, your shares, we uhreviews are especially
appreciated on all the platformsyou're listening on yes, and we
hope to see you soon.
Thanks for another one.
Have a great week Later.
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