July 30, 2025 • 47 mins
Jana Harmon, Ph.D, is the Senior Fellow For Christian Apologetics for the C.S. Lewis Institute and a Teaching Fellow for C.S. Lewis Institute Atlanta. She serves on the Atlanta Advisory Board and as an Adjunct Professor of Cultural Apologetics at Biola University. Her doctoral research studied the religious conversion of atheists to Christianity looking at the perspectives and stories of 50 former Atheists. She views apologetics through a practical, evangelistic lens. She is the host of the podcast eX-skeptic for the C.S. Lewis Institute. Jana received her PhD from the University of Birmingham, England.
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What truly opens a closed heart to faith? Dr. Jenna Harmon has spent years documenting the journeys of former atheists who found their way to Christianity—over 120 stories that reveal surprising patterns in spiritual transformation.
"I was driven there because I felt myself flat-footed in answering questions to atheists," shares Dr. Harmon, describing how her own journey into apologetics began. As host of the Ex-Skeptic podcast and a scholar with a PhD in religion and theology, she initially wondered what it would take for someone resistant to faith to genuinely consider God. What she discovered challenges conventional wisdom about evangelism and apologetics.
While intellectual arguments matter, they rarely serve as the primary catalyst for reconsidering faith. Instead, the door often opens through deeply human experiences: encountering a Christian whose character breaks down negative stereotypes, feeling a profound sense of meaninglessness in modern life, or recognizing what Dr. Harmon calls the "existential oddness" of reality—that only Christianity truly satisfies our deepest human longings for purpose, belonging, and love.
Her research revealed fascinating timing—people typically left faith around age 15 but experienced a catalyst toward reconsidering God around age 26, after about a decade of atheism. This process involves what one podcast host described as moving from confident atheism to genuine agnosticism (recognizing how little we truly know) before finding faith. As Dr. Harmon explains, engaging with skeptics requires discernment: "There are reasons why people say they don't believe. And then there are the real reasons."
Despite declining religious participation overall, Dr. Harmon sees encouraging signs, particularly among young men seeking substantive forms of faith that offer clear structure and meaning amid cultural confusion. For those wanting to explore these journeys further, ExSkeptic.org offers specially curated playlists addressing common questions like "Can I believe in science and God?" and practical advice for both Christians and curious skeptics.
Whether you're a skeptic yourself or care about someone who is, these stories remind us that no one is beyond the reach of God's love. As one dramatic conversion story demonstrates, even those deeply entrenched in opposing worldviews can find their way to faith when they encounter authentic Christianity lived out in love.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey guys, jason here, before we get started today, I
wanted to let you know that wewere talking to our friend, dr
Jenna Harmon in this episode.
We were doing it on Zoom and wehad a little bit of technical
problems this week, but it doesget better after a few minutes.
But hang in with us, guys,because we are changing
platforms and things will besounding awesome soon with some
really exciting new guests.
(00:22):
Hope you enjoy the episode.
Awesome soon with some reallyexciting new guests.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hope you enjoy the episode.
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
My name is David Shapiro.
Hey, I'm Javi Marquez.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
And I'm Jason.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Holloway.
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
Everybody, How's it going?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Awesome today, thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Good.
Today, on the Boundless Bible,we are honored to welcome
someone who speaks deeply toboth the heart and mind.
Dr Jenna Harmon is a teacher,author and host of the
Ex-Skeptic podcast, where sheexplores the powerful journeys
of former atheists who foundfaith in Christ.
With a PhD in religion andtheology and a heart for
(01:05):
apologetics and discipleship, drHarmon brings a unique blend of
scholarly depth and compassionand insight.
Her passion is clear helpingothers encounter the truth of
God's love through reason, storyand relationship.
She also happens to be one ofthe most welcoming and loving
people which I've personallyfelt, who lives out Christ's
desire to love others.
Janna, thank you so much forjoining us.
It's a real joy to have you ontoday.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Oh, it's a privilege to be with you all today, thanks
, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Oh, you're very, very welcome.
We're going to kind of throw asoftball pitch at you real quick
just to ask you an easyquestion, which is what is one
story of the Bible that youreally relate to?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
A story of the Bible that you really relate to.
A story of the Bible, wow.
Actually, this morning I wasreading the book of Ruth and I
find some relationship with thatin terms of.
I would say that my lifejourney has been one of taking
you out of your comfort zone.
Taking you out of your comfortzone, putting you in places that
(02:11):
you have no idea what the Lordhas in mind for you.
But I love the journey of Ruthwith Noemi, that she was willing
to follow Noemi, follow her God, and to put herself in places
that were completely foreign toher, in a field of Boas where
she knew no one was puttingherself actually a little bit at
risk, but the lord kneweverything in advance and and so
(02:35):
at the end of the day, you know, the lord provided for her.
All along.
They led, he led them and ledher.
And I will say just in relation,just as a quirky relationship,
to my own life, I was sitting ina classroom at Biola and a
master's degree in apologeticsthat I had no idea really why I
(02:55):
was there and the professorturned to me during lecture
midstream and said you're goingto direct the show.
I had no idea what he meant bythat.
Podcasts weren't even a thingat the time.
There's no way I could haveknown the steps that the Lord
had planned for me and the workthat he had for me to do.
(03:17):
But it's just one of thosethings where you just step into
obedience and trust and then youfind yourself in the most
unusual places.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
That is incredible.
I mean, I found that journeyfor myself, not nearly as deeply
as you have, but that when youtrust and when you obey, you
find yourself in places you justdidn't expect and you couldn't
have gotten to on your ownaccord.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
So the second question I have is you've
interviewed hundreds of formeratheists.
What kind of drew to thatmission?
What surprised you the mostabout you being drawn that way?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
I mentioned that I was in a program in apologetics
and I was.
I was driven there because Ifelt myself flat-footed in
answering questions to atheists.
I didn't understand that world.
I didn't understand the worldoutside of Christianity.
I knew the Bible.
I was engaging with seekers andskeptics and I couldn't answer
(04:17):
their questions and I foundmyself afraid and fearful.
So I went through this programin apologetics at viola and got
out of that.
I you know when you, when youlook into the, the worldview of
christianity, you find thatthere's a lot there, there's a
lot of, there's a lot of historyand philosophy and archaeology
(04:41):
and just so much that supportsthat worldview as really the one
that seems to be the best fitfor reality.
It seems to be true and I wasconvinced of that.
But when I came out of thatprogram it was really in the
rising heyday of the newatheists.
So there was a lot of disdainfor Christianityity.
(05:04):
There are a lot of dismissal,even though we had this
incredible evidence.
They would just dismisschristians and christianity out
of the hand, and not only justdismissed, it were right
contemptuous of it, and Iwatched that over the years,
thinking, well, what would ittake?
what would it take if, ifthey're dismissing this
(05:25):
worldview that seems to toreally be the best, uh, logical,
evidential, evidentiallygrounded worldview.
What would it take?
And so I started thinking aboutthat.
I was reading lewis cs lewis,of course, I was part of the CS
Lewis Institute and and BlaisePascal and Francis Schaeffer,
(05:48):
and really thinking that youknow, there's a lot more to us
in our humanity than our, thanrationality.
There's got to be some otherreasons involved in in all of us
in terms of how we form our ownbeliefs and how we become
resistant to others and what itwould take for someone to change
.
And and looking at thisjuxtaposition between christians
(06:11):
and christianity and atheistsand those who strongly oppose it
, what would it take for anatheist to become a christian?
Because we both at least thosewere two worldviews that
contended that they believed inobjective reality, so there was
a common playing ground there.
So I wanted to really look andsee what it would take on a
(06:35):
practical perspective, what itwould take for someone like that
, someone so resistant orskeptical, to really turn in the
direction of God, someone soresistant or skeptical to really
turn in the direction of God,and so that's why I went on that
journey to investigate 50former atheists in the story so
far right.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah that was in my doctoral work.
Oh, that was just in yourdoctoral work.
I thought that wow really.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Yeah, that was my doctoral work.
So yeah, I did a mixed methodstudy where they did survey and
interview and just looked at allthe data associated with that.
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
So our other co-host, Javi.
We're having some technicaldifficulties today, which is why
you're only talking to Jason,and I want to ask for him In
your work with atheists, did youfind that there was an
emotional or an intellectualissue with believing in
(07:32):
embracing the faith?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
In terms of, well, like I mentioned before, we are
whole people and so all of usembrace our beliefs or
resistance or rejection toothers, for many reasons
intellectual being part of it,emotional being part of it, our
experience in life, the peoplewe know, the relationships we
have, the things that we presume, the things that are fed to us
(08:01):
from social.
You know our socialrelationships and culture.
So when you, when you ask thatkind of a question, we'll say,
well, it depends on who you'retalking to, and it's usually a
combination of a lot of things.
And and sometimes, if they're Iwould say if they're they're
(08:23):
more in the intellectualframework, they're more
science-related philosophers, aSTEM, really thinkers who are
interested in the world of ideasso that they can't believe in
the Bible and science or thosekinds of things they think,
(08:46):
science or or those kinds ofthings they think.
But there are also a lot ofintellectual presumptions
against god that are made bypeople who aren't particularly
intellectual too.
Um, yeah, so there there'sthere.
Sometimes there's an emotionalcomponent.
Someone can have really badcircumstances in life they can
have a negative experience withsomeone who's religious.
A religious person.
They cannot think thatChristianity is good because
(09:14):
they think it just holds moralpositions that they find
disdainful.
Again, it doesn't match withwhat they want and what they
desire.
Again, there's just acombination.
I would say you just tap intoany one person and you'll find
elements of a lot of thosethings.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Yeah, I agree, I have a question for you, which is
that after you know you said yougot into it because you
couldn't understand why peoplecould be atheists, right, and
you found yourself getting inconversations where you didn't
have you know, you weren't ableto, you know, maybe answer them
in the way that you wanted to.
Do you feel, after doing all ofthese interviews, that you now,
(09:47):
when somebody comes to you withone of those questions,
obviously you're more prepared.
But do you feel more prepared?
I find myself, even though Ifeel prepared, I never feel
prepared enough.
I'm just curious how it wouldbe for somebody who spent a lot
of time picking it apart andputting it back together.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
That is a really good question.
I think preparation for menever ends and I first of all,
let me just say that I dependheavily on the spirit of God to
help me in discernment when I'msitting across the table from
someone In fact I was sittingacross the table from someone
this past week whose daughtercollege student is rejecting God
(10:31):
.
And so, despite all of thetheoretical things that I know,
the grounding of belief, thequestions I have in my head, the
reasons why I think she's wrongor whatever, there's still,
there's still a dance.
I would say there's a dance,there's a sense in which you're
(10:56):
never really quite sure whatsomeone is truly thinking.
There's a gentleman named TomScott and he says and he's an
evangelist, he goes on campuses,he's been doing it for probably
20 years or more, and he saidthere are reasons why people
give that they don't, why theydon't believe.
And then there are the realreasons.
(11:17):
So I was sitting across fromthis college student in my lab.
I've known her since she was ababy and she was expressing to
me her disbelief in god and ofcourse I.
She was coming up with all ofthese very kind of intellectual
reasons and we were wrestlingwith that and, like mary jo
(11:40):
sharp says, you can playintellectual ping pong, but I
got the sense in which you cango on, yes, for days with that
that it wasn't really breachingher real issues.
I think her real issues aremuch, much deeper than that.
Uh, a lot of hurt I think, inher life a lot of isolation, um,
(12:01):
she has a different lifestyle,I believe, and so there are a
lot of these other issues thatare brewing underneath the
surface.
So when you're, when you'retalking with somebody, like I
say, it's a bit of a dance, butit's always, first of all, not
presuming that you know whatthey they believe or they don't
(12:24):
believe that you the first thingthat you want to do is try to
try to pull that out.
What is your story?
You know, why do you believethat and how did you come to
believe that and why do youthink that?
You know, you're trying firstof all, to understand what are
(12:44):
those objections, the realreasons for disbelief, and I
think, oftentimes, until youcan't get there, then other
things are this superficialagain, the dance that may not
get you anywhere except aroundthe dance floor in a circle, and
you keep going around incircles.
(13:05):
So.
So preparation, though, I willsay, is key, because she was
bringing up some points, um,that I was able to wrestle with,
you know, with herintellectually asking questions.
You know she feels like she hasmeaning in life, she feels like
she has purpose in life, andbut yet she has.
(13:27):
You know, I was asking herabout well, how do you ground
that?
Where does that come from fromyour perspective?
You know so.
So there there's a real, realsense of, as christians,
understanding our own worldviewand what it brings, and
understanding the others andmaybe what it doesn't bring.
(13:47):
I think a lot of people theywill reject Christianity and
they're good about destroying it, dismissing it, but they
haven't really thought veryclearly about their own
worldview and what they're, whatthey have embraced if they have
rejected.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah, I think it's really important.
What you just said about makingsure that you listen and don't
presume before you go tellsomebody else why they do or not
believe, which reminds me offirst James or James one, where
he says you know, be slow to bequick to listen and slow to
speak.
And I think that's one of thoseimportant things to remember
when talking to somebody whodoesn't believe is you have to,
(14:28):
you have to ground yourself intheir disbelief before you can
even approach their disbelief.
That being said, I also I don'tknow if you know this but I was
a person who grew up in church.
I left the faith at 18 for alot of the reasons that you've
said previously, forphilosophical reasons, for, you
know, it didn't suit me or itdidn't fit with what my
(14:51):
experience had been, and I leftthe church for 25, 26, 27 years,
a very long time.
I'm very old and I left for avery long time.
And, you know, I was the personwho had those arguments and I
was the person who had thosefights and I was the person who
could debate it to, you know,the nth degree, and it wasn't
(15:11):
until, I mean, first of all, Ihad, you know what could only be
called a holy experience.
And you know God pulling meback in and saying you need to
listen.
Now it's time for you to payattention, need to listen.
Now it's time for you to payattention.
And so I've spent the last twoyears kind of I don't know
untangling the life that I'vewoven for myself over the last
25 or so years.
And one of the things that Irealized and I'm curious how
(15:33):
common this is, just because Ihaven't met anybody who has this
experience but what I had, whatI realized, was that I was very
confident in what I knew andyet I didn't actually know.
And so, you know, the thingabout being atheist is you're so
busy saying no, that's not true, no, that's not true, no,
that's not true.
But when you dig into my ownarguments, I also tell you you
know, actually I don't knowthat's true either.
(15:54):
So I had to take this step intoagnosticism before getting a
new.
So I went atheist to agnosticand then I realized that
agnostic means I don't know.
That's what it means.
There's no sense of certaintyin anything.
So I can't put certainty in myatheism, but I also can't put
certainty in.
You know, if you're trulyagnostic, you can't put
(16:16):
certainty in either one, and sothat makes the whole world open
back up.
All your presuppositions haveto fall apart, all of your
paradigms have to shift or bedestroyed for what it's worth,
and you have to build them upfrom the beginning again.
And this may be kind ofcontroversial, but I consider
myself still to be agnostic, inthat sense that every time I go
(16:36):
into a conversation, I go inwith no presuppositions.
Yes, I am a Christian, yes, Ibelieve in these things, but I
don't hold them so tightly thatI'm willing to that.
I'm willing to fight everybodyelse about them.
I'm here for the truth, I'mhere for the openness.
It just so happens that whenyou seek truth, you keep finding
God.
But I'm curious, from yourexperience, how often that seems
(16:57):
like a path back to God, or ifthat's not the case.
I don't know.
I'm just curious.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
No, I think in fact, you're spot on, and with those
who are really trulyintellectually honest with
themselves, they find themselvesin a kind of a precarious
situation like that, the storythat we have released right now.
(17:25):
His name is jeff geibel, mathteacher, and I don't know if
you've heard that story or not,but it's it's.
He fell into that samesituation where he had a really
challenging upbringing, let'sjust say, decided he wanted.
He found church as a place ofan oasis, apart from the chaos
(17:47):
of his own person, of his ownhome experience, and ended up
embracing christ and and all ofthose things and became an
evangelist, learned apologeticsand then, based upon an
experience, he had an amazingexperience with god and was
confirming for him that god isreal.
And he had this other, reallystrange experience and I'll let
(18:09):
you listen to that.
That can be.
That made him wonder ifexperience alone was not
sufficient, because we can befooled, right.
So he became an extreme skepticand started a chat room,
basically for about five years,of how do you know so anyone who
(18:29):
would come in.
He would say well, how do youknow that?
Okay, that's amazing.
Express proposition.
Well, how do you know that?
You know it was like a childgoing.
Why, why, why, why?
And he said he lived in thisplace of extreme agnosticism,
which is a really hard place tobe, which is a really hard place
to be, and.
But ended up and this seems tobe an interesting and recent
(18:53):
theme that I'm hearing and thatis that for him, he was a math
teacher and the aha moment forhim was when he was in graduate
school and he learned 29 basicaxioms from which you have to,
you know, express your all ofmath, math and and.
(19:14):
But those basic math, mathaxioms have to require some kind
of degree of right, faith,right to order, accept that, to
accept those propositions orpresuppositions in order to move
forward.
And then he said I realizedthat I have a choice here.
There are different sets ofpresuppositions.
There are there, you know math,but in terms of metaphysics,
(19:38):
you know, there are those thatpresume god doesn't exist.
There, there are those thatpresume god exists.
Which one?
Which brute facts about realityam I going to accept?
And he looked at his own lifeand the experiences of his, his
love for his wife, his love forhis nine children.
You know that there wereexperiences in life that seemed
(20:02):
better to cohere with thechristian worldview and the
grounding of it rather than not.
So he moves forward and in factI've heard this complaint a lot
that someone will come on, askeptic, and say I'm still
skeptical.
I mean, I live my life as askeptic.
I'm always seeking towardstruth.
(20:22):
I don't think that your pointis very well taken.
I don't think we should ever bein a place where we're so close
minded.
You know, I think that the Lordgives us confidence and you
know there's, there's languagein the, in the scripture about.
You know, so that you can know.
But in our own human limitedcapacities, you know, there, we
(20:44):
are limited in our capacity.
We're never certain.
There's never proof in thisworld in terms of 100% certainty
.
Certainly the Holy Spiritconfirms for us and the
scripture confirms for us andcertain objective realities
confirm for us that this is thetruth and you know, it is the
(21:06):
story of reality that makes themost sense, the most
correspondent to reality, is themost coherent it's the most
comprehensive, you know, interms of the things that we can
know.
But, yes, um, skeptic there it'skind of like the word
deconstruction.
Right, there's the wordskepticism.
It can be good in the sensethat we are seeking after that,
(21:30):
which is true, and I think a lot, of, a lot of people again like
you, jason, are like thinkers.
You know they're constantlywrestling with yes, I'm, I'm.
You know I forget what hispercentage was.
You know it's in the majoritypercentage.
You know that I really thinkI'm in the right place here.
I can't be for certain, but Iwant to be open to wherever the
(21:54):
evidence leads, and that's wheresome people just find
themselves, in this place ofcognitive dissonance.
But yet the evidence seems tobe leading towards God.
Like you say, the more that youlook, the more you're going in
the direction of God.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
You did an episode with Michael Guillaume I think I
have to tell you his name,Michael Guillaume.
He read, he wrote Believing isSeeing and you know, when I read
his story I felt a kindredspirit there because, you know,
he found his agnosticism, or hisbelief, even through science.
And he found, you know, thecrazy thing about science is
(22:33):
people think that science iswritten in stone and yet
everything that's written instone is actually in sand, and
why any of it actually works isa huge mystery.
Like even the scientists whoknow the most about the most
what they find out is they knownothing.
And the deeper you go into whatyou know, the less you find out
you know, and I have had thatexperience too.
(22:55):
I mean, I'm just one of thosetinkerers.
I like science and quantumphysics and psychology and
philosophy, and the more youlearn, the more you realize that
you do not know.
And that's where the birth ofmy agnosticism was.
And so I felt a real kindredspirit with him and I just I
like to say it out loud becauseI feel like there's other people
in this world who are coming upagainst the wall of oh my
(23:18):
goodness, I thought I knew somuch and now I know and I don't
know, you know, and, but to dowhat?
What to do with that notknowing?
And so this is the opportunityto just open it up.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
So, David, you know it's fine.
I you know what's interesting.
I'm not going to take fullcredit for it, but one of the
things that happened a couple ofyears ago was across the table
for me, was this gentleman nextto me and he was the one who I
was given by the church to gohey, have coffee with this guy.
He's a thinker and he's hadsome questions, and why don't
(23:52):
you just have this conversationwith him?
And again, nothing that I saiddo I take credit for it.
It was fully God that worked onhim.
But I have a deeply movedmoment with him where I look at
him now.
I look at him from where wewere in that conversation I had.
I'm just curious about you Isthere a conversion story that
(24:13):
just deeply moved you, thatchanged you from somebody that
you had talked to and just thatsticks to you?
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Wow, I've heard so many, and I will tell you,
though, that there are some thatjust kind of they do stick with
you, because I think it's areminder for me that no one is
too far from the love and thehand of the father.
But there's a story from a guynamed Chris Adam, and I met him
(24:52):
at a conference.
He was standing next to me inline as we were waiting to
register, and I thought this guyhas a story.
I just knew it and I wouldencourage anybody to go listen
on my podcast with it, but hegrew up also in a very difficult
environment, where love for himmeant abuse, so he knew he
(25:13):
didn't want any part of that.
Uh, it came from his, hisfamily, his mother particularly.
He was also perceived as stupid, when in fact he's probably a
genius, and so he wasmisunderstood and abused.
But he was very bright, so youcan imagine, you know the
(25:34):
reasons why he dismissed, god,there's um.
He was rejected and abused, buthe said he knew that he had,
because of his intelligence andhis ability to articulate things
, he had the ability to lead.
And so he, he found this senseof power.
And the power and that he foundwas in dark spirituality, in
(25:57):
the occult and um, and he livedin that world and he moved in
that world as a leader, at leastamong his peers, you know, as
someone, as someone who wasinfluential and understood, and
even understood how to engagewith dark spirits.
His mother was concerned abouthim, as should be Asked that.
(26:23):
There was a pastor across thestreet and said would you talk
to my child?
There was a pastor across thestreet and said would you talk
to my child?
And so he chris with his, hisfriend, I also engaged in the
same spiritual darkness as as hewas went into this man's office
at church and they actuallystarted using the computer
(26:46):
keyboard as a Ouija board,channeling dark powers or
spirits to type things on thecomputer about the pastor that
could not have been knownotherwise.
You know, there's just no way.
And when the pastor saw that hesaid oh, you're seeking power.
I can tell you where and whothe source of real power is, and
(27:12):
his name is jesus christ.
And the girl was completelyundone and gave you, fell face
down.
I mean, this is a dramaticstory no, they're not all like
this, um but she fell face downand gave her life to christ.
And then, of course, they theirrelationship became contentious
.
But she fell face down and gaveher life to Christ and then of,
course their relationship becamecontentious but she kept
(27:33):
pushing the Bible on him andhe's like I don't want to have
anything to do with it.
But he eventually reached apoint where he was actually
interested in some kind of youknow, interested in some kind of
you know end world things and,you know, started reading
(27:53):
revelation and just gettingthese ideas in his head.
and I won't, I really don't wantto give away the rest of the
story it's a great cliffhangerbecause it's pretty dramatic is,
yeah, it's pretty dramatic, buthe ended up because he's a,
he's a, a genius, and with AI,he ended up developing a Bible
app that's driven by AI that canamplify the Bible in so many
(28:17):
different ways.
And we're still working together, actually doing some projects.
So, but just again, that is.
You know that's drama, but webut, but the reality is we live
in a spiritual world and I thinka lot of people don't
understand the spiritual warfareand the vow that goes on for
the lives and the souls of menand women.
(28:38):
And, you know, these might beintellectual issues and people
might have emotional issues, butat the end of the day, it's a
spiritual issue because there isa spirituality over which Jesus
is King of Kings and he, youknow, fighting for our souls and
so but yeah, I think, I think,as Christians, we need to be
reminded that just because wesee someone who may be distant
(29:02):
or, you know, really far, andyou think there's no way, it's
not worth it, it's not aninvestment, not worth praying
for him or her, it's so worthpraying.
It's so worth praying andengaging where the Lord provides
opportunity, because you justnever know.
Now he's just a soldier for thekingdom.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Again, I think it's so interesting the thing that
I've learned over the past yearand I'm still trying to come to
terms with it or fullyunderstand it which is that
there are two very differentsides to Christianity.
There is the academic,cognitive, scholastic side.
It's the knowledge, it's theapologetics, it's all those, but
there is definitely a spiritual, more so even, a spiritual and
(29:45):
human and emotional side to thefaith, and it is where you feel
God and and those who have feltGod can't deny that feeling of
God, even those who want to deny, when they've had that
experience of seeing God face toface or side by side or, you
know, in in the presence of.
Eventually it's, it's, it'sinevitable to talk about.
(30:06):
And so you know, one of thethings that I, that I'm again,
I'm trying to come to terms withit, because, on one hand, we
are, we are bred to discussthings with people in cognitive
ways and we are not bred to, wehave to pray for people, but
praying for people doesn't feelwhen you're face to face with
them, like like the action thatthey're looking for, and you
(30:27):
can't force the Holy Spirit onthem and you can't force the
presence on them.
And so you know, you do have topray for them and you have to
do that, and you have to do thatwith great faith and you have
to do that with a belief thatit's going to help them.
But there's this interestingthing I've been playing with,
with the with on the cognitiveside, which is that, um, you
know, and I and I, I did aStanford class with, uh, robert
(30:50):
Sapolsky, who's like this,leading geneticist, behavior,
behavioral genetics is reallycool.
But I learned this idea ofphase thinking.
So, phase one thinking, phasetwo, fate thinking.
Phase three, where phase one isbasically you're learning it
wrong, but at least you'relearning the framework, um, it's
the reason you learn I before E, except after C, even though
that's not really a rule, um,but it gets you, it gets you in
the door right.
And then phase two is where youstart to like ease into some of
(31:13):
the exceptions and theexclusions and the, and so forth
and so on.
And then third is to really getinto the nuts and bolts, where
there's just as many exceptionsas there are truths, there's
just as many rules as there are,you know, falsehoods and so
forth and so on.
And I say all of that to saythat I think one of the problems
and I'm curious what yourthoughts on this of Christianity
(31:33):
right now is.
Most people only have a phaseone understanding of
Christianity.
They know what they learned aschildren, they know what they
learned at the basis of, youknow, societal understanding of
Christianity, but they don't goand figure out what the phase
two and the phase three are.
So they're still hampered bythis very minuscule
understanding of the faith, verysmall understanding of what any
(31:56):
of it means or where it camefrom, or how it came to be or
any of that.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
No-transcript are you saying a christian to christian
?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (32:32):
even even christian to christian.
I mean, I think both are true.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
I think most christians have a phase one,
maybe phase two, but well, Iwould say that what I've, the
intellectual component of ourfaith, is completely grounding,
important.
You know, it is foundational,right.
All of those things I will sayin my experience of it, whether
(32:58):
um christian, non-christian,unless there's a felt need to
know, they're not interested andthat's a shame.
I think it's a real indictmenton the church.
That is not a just a basiccomponent of how we, you know,
the framework for reality,christian worldview, how the
(33:20):
scripture fits in, you know,amplifies all of reality.
We've created a veryreductionistic view of, you know
, I just know my Bible and myverses and it's good for me.
When, when you're, if you'reevangelizing, you're, you're
(33:41):
bumping up against otherworldviews and you're trying to
understand things and either youretreat because you don't know
it.
But I'm finding that morepeople, especially as people
they know and love, are leavingfaith.
They're wanting to know youknow, so they're.
It creates this felt need.
But I will, I will say, andthis is very important, in fact,
(34:02):
this is one of the mostfascinating things in my
research, when I looked at those50 stories uh, okay, you know,
people resist god.
Okay, what is, what is thecatalyst?
Was the million dollar question?
What is the catalyst that willproduce openness where it's
(34:24):
reconsidering the possibility ofgod.
For you, jason, it sounds likeyou were having some
intellectual wrestling going on,and that is a part of it.
But for the majority of those,at least in that group of 50,
and I'm looking at a group ofscientists right now but for
(34:44):
that group of 50, what openedthem was not an intellectual or
rational argument or reason orevidence.
They weren't necessarilycurious about it from an
intellectual or rationalargument or reason or evidence.
You know, they weren'tnecessarily curious about it
from an intellectual perspective.
It was a very human reason.
Um, you know, there wassomething about christianity
that became attractive or goodor reason.
(35:07):
Um, let's just say there wassomeone they met that broke down
their preconceived negativesensibilities about Christianity
, or they had this either senseof intellectual longing you know
, because, gee, you know, ascientist in my worldview is not
(35:30):
making sense of increasing dataor it could be that my, you
know, we have a huge meaningcrisis out there.
They, you know, somebody's likeokay, I've lived in expressive
individualism for long enough.
This is exhaustive.
I'm not finding myself, myidentity, I'm lost, I'm empty,
I'm lonely.
(35:51):
You know, in this technologicalera where we're having
increased loneliness, isolation,meaninglessness, you know,
searching all these things thatyou know.
People are moving from thissense of liquid modernity, you
know, and I'm my own god, andthat sounds really good too.
Okay, let's find somethingstable here where is, or
(36:14):
something I can hold on to,that's real and true, that
actually does provide all thethings that I'm humanly right
raving value, love, belonging,sense of purpose.
You, what's life all about?
Who am I?
Those big questions, those seemto be the bigger driver as a
(36:37):
door opener.
They're just door openers andthen, over time, though, they
didn't want to embraceChristianity if it wasn't true.
I think that there is a certain, and I seem to be a little bit
of a lone voice, but I thinkthat there's something that I
consider to be existentialoddness, like there's a moral
oddness about reality.
(36:57):
I think that there's anexistential oddness, an
existential truth, that the onlyworldview that matches with our
desires, the argument fromdesire, the only worldview that
matches that or provides forthat or satisfies that, is the
Christian worldview.
And I think that areductionistic view of
(37:20):
apologetics to merely theintellectual is missing out on
this larger story that everyonewants to be a part of.
Everybody wants to feel loved,valued, purposed, have a sense
of belonging.
You know, those are very deep,human.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Intrinsic needs.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Intrinsic needs.
Yes, that they are a hugeapologetic.
You know we need to be heresaying only the Christian
worldview provides those thingsthat your heart is craving for.
Yes, the intellectual partgrounds that, it sustains, that
(38:02):
it helps to sustain, that istrue.
But you're right, Jason, Ithink we need to have a much
more fully or holistic kind ofhuman.
I don't mean that in ahumanistic way, but in a human
way that connects with peopleand the things that they're
(38:22):
actually looking for in life.
But you know we provide that.
And hey, by the way, I've toldDavid that David David is.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
you know, has already mentioned that he was one of
the kind of leading factors thatled me, led me back into it.
And it wasn't the conversations, although those were
fascinating, and it wasn't thelogic, although that was
fascinating, but it was watchingwho he was as a person, it was
seeing who he had beentransformed into and Javi, who
very sadly isn't on this callwith us, but the two of them
seeing who they are and seeingwho they were, and who they were
(38:51):
because of Christ, that was themotivating factor.
If I could take a quick questionwhat's the age?
Was there a median age that youfound that people tended to
realize, oh, none of this ismaking sense and I need to get
somewhere quickly.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Yeah, at least in that particular study, the
average age of leaving faith was15, and I would say it's a
little bit younger, but theaverage age of a catalyst was 26
.
They lived in atheism for about10 years on average.
(39:27):
Of course, some lived decades,some lived short periods, but
yeah, I guess it was the quarterlife crisis.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
What's interesting is there's actually some research
now that young men older teensare actually coming back to the
church at a larger rate, whichis incredible based on what
you've seen.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Yes, Well, we just finished talking to some we just
finished talking to some youthand they made a really good
point.
He's he's 18, I think, and hesaid you know, you should, you
guys should be aware that we arein our age group.
There are many people who don'thave hobbies.
Their entire hobby is scrollingthrough their phone and they
don't do other things.
And I and I think that hassomething to do with it I, you
(40:10):
know, when you don't haveanything and you don't have any
purpose, there goes what yousaid before.
It's just opening up earlier inlife.
It's the realization that youneed something and that you're
lonely and that there's a bigworld out there and you're not a
part of it, and it's justcoming a little earlier now and
I think that has a lot to dowith it as well.
(40:31):
It was a really spot-on,insightful comment, yep um we're
yeah, no, I oh, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
I was going to say, yeah, I think it.
Actually.
It is interesting to see thistrend that's happened over the
past, I would say five years orso, uh, with jordan peterson
right, giving young mensomething like okay, get up,
make your bed, do somethingthat's purposeful.
You know, do something.
You know the full atheistmovement, christianity wasn't
true and it was not good.
(41:01):
Now, you know, people aresaying, well, no, actually it
(41:24):
helped stabilize society.
There's really good moralstructure in the Bible, you know
.
There's something good andmeaningful and and something
worth hanging on to a solidfoundation, a rock rather than
sand.
You know, all these things thatare allowing these young men
who are craving in this societywhere femininity is masculinized
(41:47):
and you know the masculine isfeminized um, you know, and
they're, they're searching fortheir identity going.
No, we're not like that, wewant to be more, we need more,
you know, and they're actuallygoing to very demanding forms of
christianity, even orthodoxyand catholicism, and even
(42:08):
charismatic movement.
There, um, things that seemreal or true or even weird, you
know, like something to hang onto that's different than the
world.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
And it's exciting, yeah, it's ironic because,
stoicism had a big you know, hada big rise over the past 10
years or so, and the problemwith anybody who ever tried
stoicism is that it's a longgame with no end and not a very
fruitful one at that.
And yet when you look at thediscipline that is required to
(42:40):
be stoic and then you look atthe discipline that is required
to be faithful in the OldTestament, new Testament version
, you actually see somethingvery similar, except you have an
end in sight and you're notalone and there are others who
care for you, and there is a Godwho is on your side.
And it's like and I was lookingat that the other day I was
(43:01):
like that's really aninteresting byproduct of no
meaning is that you could findthe thing that's very, very
similar yet has meaning, andpull it all together.
And now, now here we are andthank God we are.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
Yeah, yeah, I think there's a movement, I think
there's a movement.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
So one of the things that, uh, I just want to leave
with is, uh, even people like me, who've you know, seem like I
have it all together.
I have all the information.
I love to defend the faith.
Uh, I love to read through theBible.
There are moments we have whereI started going through
imposter syndrome.
the other day, oh for sure, andone of the people that I reached
out to was Jana, and actuallywas the only person who was able
(43:44):
to give me some advice to pullme out, which I truly appreciate
.
But, jana, where can listenersfollow your work, your podcast,
where can they hear from you?
Because I think what you say isreally valuable to a lot of
people.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Most of the work that I do is with ExSkeptic.
So we have a website,exskepticorg.
We have a YouTube channel.
One of the greatest things orgreatest is that terrible to say
about your own?
One of the greatest things orgreatest is that terrible to say
about your own website?
But when people here's thething these stories.
(44:22):
we have over 120 stories now offormer atheists and skeptics,
but they don't only just givetheir story so you can kind of
see how someone moves fromresistance to openness to faith
but they also give advice toChristians who are trying to
engage with non-believers orskeptics, and they also, as
former skeptics, give advice tocurious skeptics as to how to
(44:45):
take steps forward towards Godand what we've done, because if
somebody comes to our site,they're like well, gee, there's
so many stories.
You know where do I go.
We've developed playlists ofcertain types of stories you
know and certain certain hardquestions like can I believe in
science and God?
It was, so we've created aplaylist of stories that
(45:06):
particularly deal with thatissue.
Or is it rational to believe inGod?
Or you know, I don't.
You know what.
What about you know?
Does it really matter that Ibelieve in God?
Or you know what?
If life hurts?
Is God good?
Or you know?
There's just a lot of differentplaylists that that we're still
in the process of developing.
We we have developed nine ofthose.
(45:27):
So if you're looking forsomething particular, certain
kind of story that you thinkthat might be helpful, take a
look on our YouTube channelagain.
That's outstanding.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Amazing and not to self-promote, but I do believe I
make an appearance on one ofthose episodes coming up.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
You do, on August 15th, your episode David's
episodes.
There you go, we're going tohave a premiere, we're going to
have a red carpet.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
We're going to do the whole thing for him.
We're going to have a premiere,we're going to have a red
carpet.
We're going to do the wholething for them.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
We're going to do the whole thing.
Yes, top hat and all yes.
Top hat and all yes.
Yeah, jason, it sounds like youneed to come over to the
premiere as well.
I would appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
I would be very enjoyable as well.
But, Janet, this has been sowonderful.
I have appreciated this.
I have taken way too much ofthe talking part of this and I
apologize for that to David and.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Daniel, it's good to see you so excited, and
hopefully Jan will allow me tokeep poking in emails at her, so
I'll spend a little time withher.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Well, we really appreciate your time.
We appreciate your insights.
They are outstanding.
We would love to do this againwith slightly less technical
problems, maybe next time, butwe appreciate you.
We are thankful for you and toall of our listeners we are also
thankful to you.
We appreciate you, weappreciate your time.
We know you could be doing lotsof other things, but you are
here with us learning about God,learning about why it's
(46:44):
important to continue thisjourney of faith and even how to
help those around you becomecloser in that faith or come to
that faith.
Also appreciate your likes,comments, reviews and we look
forward to talking to you nextweek.
Thanks a lot, thank you.
Hey guys, jason here, before we get started today, I
wanted to let you know that wewere talking to our friend, dr
Jenna Harmon in this episode.
We were doing it on Zoom and wehad a little bit of technical
problems this week, but it doesget better after a few minutes.
But hang in with us, guys,because we are changing
platforms and things will besounding awesome soon with some
really exciting new guests.
(00:22):
Hope you enjoy the episode.
Awesome soon with some reallyexciting new guests.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hope you enjoy the episode.
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
My name is David Shapiro.
Hey, I'm Javi Marquez.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
And I'm Jason.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Holloway.
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
Everybody, How's it going?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Awesome today, thank you.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Good.
Today, on the Boundless Bible,we are honored to welcome
someone who speaks deeply toboth the heart and mind.
Dr Jenna Harmon is a teacher,author and host of the
Ex-Skeptic podcast, where sheexplores the powerful journeys
of former atheists who foundfaith in Christ.
With a PhD in religion andtheology and a heart for
(01:05):
apologetics and discipleship, drHarmon brings a unique blend of
scholarly depth and compassionand insight.
Her passion is clear helpingothers encounter the truth of
God's love through reason, storyand relationship.
She also happens to be one ofthe most welcoming and loving
people which I've personallyfelt, who lives out Christ's
desire to love others.
Janna, thank you so much forjoining us.
It's a real joy to have you ontoday.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Oh, it's a privilege to be with you all today, thanks
, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Oh, you're very, very welcome.
We're going to kind of throw asoftball pitch at you real quick
just to ask you an easyquestion, which is what is one
story of the Bible that youreally relate to?
Speaker 3 (01:44):
A story of the Bible that you really relate to.
A story of the Bible, wow.
Actually, this morning I wasreading the book of Ruth and I
find some relationship with thatin terms of.
I would say that my lifejourney has been one of taking
you out of your comfort zone.
Taking you out of your comfortzone, putting you in places that
(02:11):
you have no idea what the Lordhas in mind for you.
But I love the journey of Ruthwith Noemi, that she was willing
to follow Noemi, follow her God, and to put herself in places
that were completely foreign toher, in a field of Boas where
she knew no one was puttingherself actually a little bit at
risk, but the lord kneweverything in advance and and so
(02:35):
at the end of the day, you know, the lord provided for her.
All along.
They led, he led them and ledher.
And I will say just in relation,just as a quirky relationship,
to my own life, I was sitting ina classroom at Biola and a
master's degree in apologeticsthat I had no idea really why I
(02:55):
was there and the professorturned to me during lecture
midstream and said you're goingto direct the show.
I had no idea what he meant bythat.
Podcasts weren't even a thingat the time.
There's no way I could haveknown the steps that the Lord
had planned for me and the workthat he had for me to do.
(03:17):
But it's just one of thosethings where you just step into
obedience and trust and then youfind yourself in the most
unusual places.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
That is incredible.
I mean, I found that journeyfor myself, not nearly as deeply
as you have, but that when youtrust and when you obey, you
find yourself in places you justdidn't expect and you couldn't
have gotten to on your ownaccord.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
So the second question I have is you've
interviewed hundreds of formeratheists.
What kind of drew to thatmission?
What surprised you the mostabout you being drawn that way?
Speaker 3 (03:56):
I mentioned that I was in a program in apologetics
and I was.
I was driven there because Ifelt myself flat-footed in
answering questions to atheists.
I didn't understand that world.
I didn't understand the worldoutside of Christianity.
I knew the Bible.
I was engaging with seekers andskeptics and I couldn't answer
(04:17):
their questions and I foundmyself afraid and fearful.
So I went through this programin apologetics at viola and got
out of that.
I you know when you, when youlook into the, the worldview of
christianity, you find thatthere's a lot there, there's a
lot of, there's a lot of historyand philosophy and archaeology
(04:41):
and just so much that supportsthat worldview as really the one
that seems to be the best fitfor reality.
It seems to be true and I wasconvinced of that.
But when I came out of thatprogram it was really in the
rising heyday of the newatheists.
So there was a lot of disdainfor Christianityity.
(05:04):
There are a lot of dismissal,even though we had this
incredible evidence.
They would just dismisschristians and christianity out
of the hand, and not only justdismissed, it were right
contemptuous of it, and Iwatched that over the years,
thinking, well, what would ittake?
what would it take if, ifthey're dismissing this
(05:25):
worldview that seems to toreally be the best, uh, logical,
evidential, evidentiallygrounded worldview.
What would it take?
And so I started thinking aboutthat.
I was reading lewis cs lewis,of course, I was part of the CS
Lewis Institute and and BlaisePascal and Francis Schaeffer,
(05:48):
and really thinking that youknow, there's a lot more to us
in our humanity than our, thanrationality.
There's got to be some otherreasons involved in in all of us
in terms of how we form our ownbeliefs and how we become
resistant to others and what itwould take for someone to change
.
And and looking at thisjuxtaposition between christians
(06:11):
and christianity and atheistsand those who strongly oppose it
, what would it take for anatheist to become a christian?
Because we both at least thosewere two worldviews that
contended that they believed inobjective reality, so there was
a common playing ground there.
So I wanted to really look andsee what it would take on a
(06:35):
practical perspective, what itwould take for someone like that
, someone so resistant orskeptical, to really turn in the
direction of God, someone soresistant or skeptical to really
turn in the direction of God,and so that's why I went on that
journey to investigate 50former atheists in the story so
far right.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah that was in my doctoral work.
Oh, that was just in yourdoctoral work.
I thought that wow really.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Yeah, that was my doctoral work.
So yeah, I did a mixed methodstudy where they did survey and
interview and just looked at allthe data associated with that.
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
So our other co-host, Javi.
We're having some technicaldifficulties today, which is why
you're only talking to Jason,and I want to ask for him In
your work with atheists, did youfind that there was an
emotional or an intellectualissue with believing in
(07:32):
embracing the faith?
Speaker 3 (07:37):
In terms of, well, like I mentioned before, we are
whole people and so all of usembrace our beliefs or
resistance or rejection toothers, for many reasons
intellectual being part of it,emotional being part of it, our
experience in life, the peoplewe know, the relationships we
have, the things that we presume, the things that are fed to us
(08:01):
from social.
You know our socialrelationships and culture.
So when you, when you ask thatkind of a question, we'll say,
well, it depends on who you'retalking to, and it's usually a
combination of a lot of things.
And and sometimes, if they're Iwould say if they're they're
(08:23):
more in the intellectualframework, they're more
science-related philosophers, aSTEM, really thinkers who are
interested in the world of ideasso that they can't believe in
the Bible and science or thosekinds of things they think,
(08:46):
science or or those kinds ofthings they think.
But there are also a lot ofintellectual presumptions
against god that are made bypeople who aren't particularly
intellectual too.
Um, yeah, so there there'sthere.
Sometimes there's an emotionalcomponent.
Someone can have really badcircumstances in life they can
have a negative experience withsomeone who's religious.
A religious person.
They cannot think thatChristianity is good because
(09:14):
they think it just holds moralpositions that they find
disdainful.
Again, it doesn't match withwhat they want and what they
desire.
Again, there's just acombination.
I would say you just tap intoany one person and you'll find
elements of a lot of thosethings.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Yeah, I agree, I have a question for you, which is
that after you know you said yougot into it because you
couldn't understand why peoplecould be atheists, right, and
you found yourself getting inconversations where you didn't
have you know, you weren't ableto, you know, maybe answer them
in the way that you wanted to.
Do you feel, after doing all ofthese interviews, that you now,
(09:47):
when somebody comes to you withone of those questions,
obviously you're more prepared.
But do you feel more prepared?
I find myself, even though Ifeel prepared, I never feel
prepared enough.
I'm just curious how it wouldbe for somebody who spent a lot
of time picking it apart andputting it back together.
Speaker 3 (10:06):
That is a really good question.
I think preparation for menever ends and I first of all,
let me just say that I dependheavily on the spirit of God to
help me in discernment when I'msitting across the table from
someone In fact I was sittingacross the table from someone
this past week whose daughtercollege student is rejecting God
(10:31):
.
And so, despite all of thetheoretical things that I know,
the grounding of belief, thequestions I have in my head, the
reasons why I think she's wrongor whatever, there's still,
there's still a dance.
I would say there's a dance,there's a sense in which you're
(10:56):
never really quite sure whatsomeone is truly thinking.
There's a gentleman named TomScott and he says and he's an
evangelist, he goes on campuses,he's been doing it for probably
20 years or more, and he saidthere are reasons why people
give that they don't, why theydon't believe.
And then there are the realreasons.
(11:17):
So I was sitting across fromthis college student in my lab.
I've known her since she was ababy and she was expressing to
me her disbelief in god and ofcourse I.
She was coming up with all ofthese very kind of intellectual
reasons and we were wrestlingwith that and, like mary jo
(11:40):
sharp says, you can playintellectual ping pong, but I
got the sense in which you cango on, yes, for days with that
that it wasn't really breachingher real issues.
I think her real issues aremuch, much deeper than that.
Uh, a lot of hurt I think, inher life a lot of isolation, um,
(12:01):
she has a different lifestyle,I believe, and so there are a
lot of these other issues thatare brewing underneath the
surface.
So when you're, when you'retalking with somebody, like I
say, it's a bit of a dance, butit's always, first of all, not
presuming that you know whatthey they believe or they don't
(12:24):
believe that you the first thingthat you want to do is try to
try to pull that out.
What is your story?
You know, why do you believethat and how did you come to
believe that and why do youthink that?
You know, you're trying firstof all, to understand what are
(12:44):
those objections, the realreasons for disbelief, and I
think, oftentimes, until youcan't get there, then other
things are this superficialagain, the dance that may not
get you anywhere except aroundthe dance floor in a circle, and
you keep going around incircles.
(13:05):
So.
So preparation, though, I willsay, is key, because she was
bringing up some points, um,that I was able to wrestle with,
you know, with herintellectually asking questions.
You know she feels like she hasmeaning in life, she feels like
she has purpose in life, andbut yet she has.
(13:27):
You know, I was asking herabout well, how do you ground
that?
Where does that come from fromyour perspective?
You know so.
So there there's a real, realsense of, as christians,
understanding our own worldviewand what it brings, and
understanding the others andmaybe what it doesn't bring.
(13:47):
I think a lot of people theywill reject Christianity and
they're good about destroying it, dismissing it, but they
haven't really thought veryclearly about their own
worldview and what they're, whatthey have embraced if they have
rejected.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah, I think it's really important.
What you just said about makingsure that you listen and don't
presume before you go tellsomebody else why they do or not
believe, which reminds me offirst James or James one, where
he says you know, be slow to bequick to listen and slow to
speak.
And I think that's one of thoseimportant things to remember
when talking to somebody whodoesn't believe is you have to,
(14:28):
you have to ground yourself intheir disbelief before you can
even approach their disbelief.
That being said, I also I don'tknow if you know this but I was
a person who grew up in church.
I left the faith at 18 for alot of the reasons that you've
said previously, forphilosophical reasons, for, you
know, it didn't suit me or itdidn't fit with what my
(14:51):
experience had been, and I leftthe church for 25, 26, 27 years,
a very long time.
I'm very old and I left for avery long time.
And, you know, I was the personwho had those arguments and I
was the person who had thosefights and I was the person who
could debate it to, you know,the nth degree, and it wasn't
(15:11):
until, I mean, first of all, Ihad, you know what could only be
called a holy experience.
And you know God pulling meback in and saying you need to
listen.
Now it's time for you to payattention, need to listen.
Now it's time for you to payattention.
And so I've spent the last twoyears kind of I don't know
untangling the life that I'vewoven for myself over the last
25 or so years.
And one of the things that Irealized and I'm curious how
(15:33):
common this is, just because Ihaven't met anybody who has this
experience but what I had, whatI realized, was that I was very
confident in what I knew andyet I didn't actually know.
And so, you know, the thingabout being atheist is you're so
busy saying no, that's not true, no, that's not true, no,
that's not true.
But when you dig into my ownarguments, I also tell you you
know, actually I don't knowthat's true either.
(15:54):
So I had to take this step intoagnosticism before getting a
new.
So I went atheist to agnosticand then I realized that
agnostic means I don't know.
That's what it means.
There's no sense of certaintyin anything.
So I can't put certainty in myatheism, but I also can't put
certainty in.
You know, if you're trulyagnostic, you can't put
(16:16):
certainty in either one, and sothat makes the whole world open
back up.
All your presuppositions haveto fall apart, all of your
paradigms have to shift or bedestroyed for what it's worth,
and you have to build them upfrom the beginning again.
And this may be kind ofcontroversial, but I consider
myself still to be agnostic, inthat sense that every time I go
(16:36):
into a conversation, I go inwith no presuppositions.
Yes, I am a Christian, yes, Ibelieve in these things, but I
don't hold them so tightly thatI'm willing to that.
I'm willing to fight everybodyelse about them.
I'm here for the truth, I'mhere for the openness.
It just so happens that whenyou seek truth, you keep finding
God.
But I'm curious, from yourexperience, how often that seems
(16:57):
like a path back to God, or ifthat's not the case.
I don't know.
I'm just curious.
Speaker 3 (17:04):
No, I think in fact, you're spot on, and with those
who are really trulyintellectually honest with
themselves, they find themselvesin a kind of a precarious
situation like that, the storythat we have released right now.
(17:25):
His name is jeff geibel, mathteacher, and I don't know if
you've heard that story or not,but it's it's.
He fell into that samesituation where he had a really
challenging upbringing, let'sjust say, decided he wanted.
He found church as a place ofan oasis, apart from the chaos
(17:47):
of his own person, of his ownhome experience, and ended up
embracing christ and and all ofthose things and became an
evangelist, learned apologeticsand then, based upon an
experience, he had an amazingexperience with god and was
confirming for him that god isreal.
And he had this other, reallystrange experience and I'll let
(18:09):
you listen to that.
That can be.
That made him wonder ifexperience alone was not
sufficient, because we can befooled, right.
So he became an extreme skepticand started a chat room,
basically for about five years,of how do you know so anyone who
(18:29):
would come in.
He would say well, how do youknow that?
Okay, that's amazing.
Express proposition.
Well, how do you know that?
You know it was like a childgoing.
Why, why, why, why?
And he said he lived in thisplace of extreme agnosticism,
which is a really hard place tobe, which is a really hard place
to be, and.
But ended up and this seems tobe an interesting and recent
(18:53):
theme that I'm hearing and thatis that for him, he was a math
teacher and the aha moment forhim was when he was in graduate
school and he learned 29 basicaxioms from which you have to,
you know, express your all ofmath, math and and.
(19:14):
But those basic math, mathaxioms have to require some kind
of degree of right, faith,right to order, accept that, to
accept those propositions orpresuppositions in order to move
forward.
And then he said I realizedthat I have a choice here.
There are different sets ofpresuppositions.
There are there, you know math,but in terms of metaphysics,
(19:38):
you know, there are those thatpresume god doesn't exist.
There, there are those thatpresume god exists.
Which one?
Which brute facts about realityam I going to accept?
And he looked at his own lifeand the experiences of his, his
love for his wife, his love forhis nine children.
You know that there wereexperiences in life that seemed
(20:02):
better to cohere with thechristian worldview and the
grounding of it rather than not.
So he moves forward and in factI've heard this complaint a lot
that someone will come on, askeptic, and say I'm still
skeptical.
I mean, I live my life as askeptic.
I'm always seeking towardstruth.
(20:22):
I don't think that your pointis very well taken.
I don't think we should ever bein a place where we're so close
minded.
You know, I think that the Lordgives us confidence and you
know there's, there's languagein the, in the scripture about.
You know, so that you can know.
But in our own human limitedcapacities, you know, there, we
(20:44):
are limited in our capacity.
We're never certain.
There's never proof in thisworld in terms of 100% certainty
.
Certainly the Holy Spiritconfirms for us and the
scripture confirms for us andcertain objective realities
confirm for us that this is thetruth and you know, it is the
(21:06):
story of reality that makes themost sense, the most
correspondent to reality, is themost coherent it's the most
comprehensive, you know, interms of the things that we can
know.
But, yes, um, skeptic there it'skind of like the word
deconstruction.
Right, there's the wordskepticism.
It can be good in the sensethat we are seeking after that,
(21:30):
which is true, and I think a lot, of, a lot of people again like
you, jason, are like thinkers.
You know they're constantlywrestling with yes, I'm, I'm.
You know I forget what hispercentage was.
You know it's in the majoritypercentage.
You know that I really thinkI'm in the right place here.
I can't be for certain, but Iwant to be open to wherever the
(21:54):
evidence leads, and that's wheresome people just find
themselves, in this place ofcognitive dissonance.
But yet the evidence seems tobe leading towards God.
Like you say, the more that youlook, the more you're going in
the direction of God.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
You did an episode with Michael Guillaume I think I
have to tell you his name,Michael Guillaume.
He read, he wrote Believing isSeeing and you know, when I read
his story I felt a kindredspirit there because, you know,
he found his agnosticism, or hisbelief, even through science.
And he found, you know, thecrazy thing about science is
(22:33):
people think that science iswritten in stone and yet
everything that's written instone is actually in sand, and
why any of it actually works isa huge mystery.
Like even the scientists whoknow the most about the most
what they find out is they knownothing.
And the deeper you go into whatyou know, the less you find out
you know, and I have had thatexperience too.
(22:55):
I mean, I'm just one of thosetinkerers.
I like science and quantumphysics and psychology and
philosophy, and the more youlearn, the more you realize that
you do not know.
And that's where the birth ofmy agnosticism was.
And so I felt a real kindredspirit with him and I just I
like to say it out loud becauseI feel like there's other people
in this world who are coming upagainst the wall of oh my
(23:18):
goodness, I thought I knew somuch and now I know and I don't
know, you know, and, but to dowhat?
What to do with that notknowing?
And so this is the opportunityto just open it up.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
So, David, you know it's fine.
I you know what's interesting.
I'm not going to take fullcredit for it, but one of the
things that happened a couple ofyears ago was across the table
for me, was this gentleman nextto me and he was the one who I
was given by the church to gohey, have coffee with this guy.
He's a thinker and he's hadsome questions, and why don't
(23:52):
you just have this conversationwith him?
And again, nothing that I saiddo I take credit for it.
It was fully God that worked onhim.
But I have a deeply movedmoment with him where I look at
him now.
I look at him from where wewere in that conversation I had.
I'm just curious about you Isthere a conversion story that
(24:13):
just deeply moved you, thatchanged you from somebody that
you had talked to and just thatsticks to you?
Speaker 3 (24:22):
Wow, I've heard so many, and I will tell you,
though, that there are some thatjust kind of they do stick with
you, because I think it's areminder for me that no one is
too far from the love and thehand of the father.
But there's a story from a guynamed Chris Adam, and I met him
(24:52):
at a conference.
He was standing next to me inline as we were waiting to
register, and I thought this guyhas a story.
I just knew it and I wouldencourage anybody to go listen
on my podcast with it, but hegrew up also in a very difficult
environment, where love for himmeant abuse, so he knew he
(25:13):
didn't want any part of that.
Uh, it came from his, hisfamily, his mother particularly.
He was also perceived as stupid, when in fact he's probably a
genius, and so he wasmisunderstood and abused.
But he was very bright, so youcan imagine, you know the
(25:34):
reasons why he dismissed, god,there's um.
He was rejected and abused, buthe said he knew that he had,
because of his intelligence andhis ability to articulate things
, he had the ability to lead.
And so he, he found this senseof power.
And the power and that he foundwas in dark spirituality, in
(25:57):
the occult and um, and he livedin that world and he moved in
that world as a leader, at leastamong his peers, you know, as
someone, as someone who wasinfluential and understood, and
even understood how to engagewith dark spirits.
His mother was concerned abouthim, as should be Asked that.
(26:23):
There was a pastor across thestreet and said would you talk
to my child?
There was a pastor across thestreet and said would you talk
to my child?
And so he chris with his, hisfriend, I also engaged in the
same spiritual darkness as as hewas went into this man's office
at church and they actuallystarted using the computer
(26:46):
keyboard as a Ouija board,channeling dark powers or
spirits to type things on thecomputer about the pastor that
could not have been knownotherwise.
You know, there's just no way.
And when the pastor saw that hesaid oh, you're seeking power.
I can tell you where and whothe source of real power is, and
(27:12):
his name is jesus christ.
And the girl was completelyundone and gave you, fell face
down.
I mean, this is a dramaticstory no, they're not all like
this, um but she fell face downand gave her life to christ.
And then, of course, they theirrelationship became contentious
.
But she fell face down and gaveher life to Christ and then of,
course their relationship becamecontentious but she kept
(27:33):
pushing the Bible on him andhe's like I don't want to have
anything to do with it.
But he eventually reached apoint where he was actually
interested in some kind of youknow, interested in some kind of
you know end world things and,you know, started reading
(27:53):
revelation and just gettingthese ideas in his head.
and I won't, I really don't wantto give away the rest of the
story it's a great cliffhangerbecause it's pretty dramatic is,
yeah, it's pretty dramatic, buthe ended up because he's a,
he's a, a genius, and with AI,he ended up developing a Bible
app that's driven by AI that canamplify the Bible in so many
(28:17):
different ways.
And we're still working together, actually doing some projects.
So, but just again, that is.
You know that's drama, but webut, but the reality is we live
in a spiritual world and I thinka lot of people don't
understand the spiritual warfareand the vow that goes on for
the lives and the souls of menand women.
(28:38):
And, you know, these might beintellectual issues and people
might have emotional issues, butat the end of the day, it's a
spiritual issue because there isa spirituality over which Jesus
is King of Kings and he, youknow, fighting for our souls and
so but yeah, I think, I think,as Christians, we need to be
reminded that just because wesee someone who may be distant
(29:02):
or, you know, really far, andyou think there's no way, it's
not worth it, it's not aninvestment, not worth praying
for him or her, it's so worthpraying.
It's so worth praying andengaging where the Lord provides
opportunity, because you justnever know.
Now he's just a soldier for thekingdom.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
Again, I think it's so interesting the thing that
I've learned over the past yearand I'm still trying to come to
terms with it or fullyunderstand it which is that
there are two very differentsides to Christianity.
There is the academic,cognitive, scholastic side.
It's the knowledge, it's theapologetics, it's all those, but
there is definitely a spiritual, more so even, a spiritual and
(29:45):
human and emotional side to thefaith, and it is where you feel
God and and those who have feltGod can't deny that feeling of
God, even those who want to deny, when they've had that
experience of seeing God face toface or side by side or, you
know, in in the presence of.
Eventually it's, it's, it'sinevitable to talk about.
(30:06):
And so you know, one of thethings that I, that I'm again,
I'm trying to come to terms withit, because, on one hand, we
are, we are bred to discussthings with people in cognitive
ways and we are not bred to, wehave to pray for people, but
praying for people doesn't feelwhen you're face to face with
them, like like the action thatthey're looking for, and you
(30:27):
can't force the Holy Spirit onthem and you can't force the
presence on them.
And so you know, you do have topray for them and you have to
do that, and you have to do thatwith great faith and you have
to do that with a belief thatit's going to help them.
But there's this interestingthing I've been playing with,
with the with on the cognitiveside, which is that, um, you
know, and I and I, I did aStanford class with, uh, robert
(30:50):
Sapolsky, who's like this,leading geneticist, behavior,
behavioral genetics is reallycool.
But I learned this idea ofphase thinking.
So, phase one thinking, phasetwo, fate thinking.
Phase three, where phase one isbasically you're learning it
wrong, but at least you'relearning the framework, um, it's
the reason you learn I before E, except after C, even though
that's not really a rule, um,but it gets you, it gets you in
the door right.
And then phase two is where youstart to like ease into some of
(31:13):
the exceptions and theexclusions and the, and so forth
and so on.
And then third is to really getinto the nuts and bolts, where
there's just as many exceptionsas there are truths, there's
just as many rules as there are,you know, falsehoods and so
forth and so on.
And I say all of that to saythat I think one of the problems
and I'm curious what yourthoughts on this of Christianity
(31:33):
right now is.
Most people only have a phaseone understanding of
Christianity.
They know what they learned aschildren, they know what they
learned at the basis of, youknow, societal understanding of
Christianity, but they don't goand figure out what the phase
two and the phase three are.
So they're still hampered bythis very minuscule
understanding of the faith, verysmall understanding of what any
(31:56):
of it means or where it camefrom, or how it came to be or
any of that.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
No-transcript are you saying a christian to christian
?
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (32:32):
even even christian to christian.
I mean, I think both are true.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
I think most christians have a phase one,
maybe phase two, but well, Iwould say that what I've, the
intellectual component of ourfaith, is completely grounding,
important.
You know, it is foundational,right.
All of those things I will sayin my experience of it, whether
(32:58):
um christian, non-christian,unless there's a felt need to
know, they're not interested andthat's a shame.
I think it's a real indictmenton the church.
That is not a just a basiccomponent of how we, you know,
the framework for reality,christian worldview, how the
(33:20):
scripture fits in, you know,amplifies all of reality.
We've created a veryreductionistic view of, you know
, I just know my Bible and myverses and it's good for me.
When, when you're, if you'reevangelizing, you're, you're
(33:41):
bumping up against otherworldviews and you're trying to
understand things and either youretreat because you don't know
it.
But I'm finding that morepeople, especially as people
they know and love, are leavingfaith.
They're wanting to know youknow, so they're.
It creates this felt need.
But I will, I will say, andthis is very important, in fact,
(34:02):
this is one of the mostfascinating things in my
research, when I looked at those50 stories uh, okay, you know,
people resist god.
Okay, what is, what is thecatalyst?
Was the million dollar question?
What is the catalyst that willproduce openness where it's
(34:24):
reconsidering the possibility ofgod.
For you, jason, it sounds likeyou were having some
intellectual wrestling going on,and that is a part of it.
But for the majority of those,at least in that group of 50,
and I'm looking at a group ofscientists right now but for
(34:44):
that group of 50, what openedthem was not an intellectual or
rational argument or reason orevidence.
They weren't necessarilycurious about it from an
intellectual or rationalargument or reason or evidence.
You know, they weren'tnecessarily curious about it
from an intellectual perspective.
It was a very human reason.
Um, you know, there wassomething about christianity
that became attractive or goodor reason.
(35:07):
Um, let's just say there wassomeone they met that broke down
their preconceived negativesensibilities about Christianity
, or they had this either senseof intellectual longing you know
, because, gee, you know, ascientist in my worldview is not
(35:30):
making sense of increasing dataor it could be that my, you
know, we have a huge meaningcrisis out there.
They, you know, somebody's likeokay, I've lived in expressive
individualism for long enough.
This is exhaustive.
I'm not finding myself, myidentity, I'm lost, I'm empty,
I'm lonely.
(35:51):
You know, in this technologicalera where we're having
increased loneliness, isolation,meaninglessness, you know,
searching all these things thatyou know.
People are moving from thissense of liquid modernity, you
know, and I'm my own god, andthat sounds really good too.
Okay, let's find somethingstable here where is, or
(36:14):
something I can hold on to,that's real and true, that
actually does provide all thethings that I'm humanly right
raving value, love, belonging,sense of purpose.
You, what's life all about?
Who am I?
Those big questions, those seemto be the bigger driver as a
(36:37):
door opener.
They're just door openers andthen, over time, though, they
didn't want to embraceChristianity if it wasn't true.
I think that there is a certain, and I seem to be a little bit
of a lone voice, but I thinkthat there's something that I
consider to be existentialoddness, like there's a moral
oddness about reality.
(36:57):
I think that there's anexistential oddness, an
existential truth, that the onlyworldview that matches with our
desires, the argument fromdesire, the only worldview that
matches that or provides forthat or satisfies that, is the
Christian worldview.
And I think that areductionistic view of
(37:20):
apologetics to merely theintellectual is missing out on
this larger story that everyonewants to be a part of.
Everybody wants to feel loved,valued, purposed, have a sense
of belonging.
You know, those are very deep,human.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Intrinsic needs.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
Intrinsic needs.
Yes, that they are a hugeapologetic.
You know we need to be heresaying only the Christian
worldview provides those thingsthat your heart is craving for.
Yes, the intellectual partgrounds that, it sustains, that
(38:02):
it helps to sustain, that istrue.
But you're right, Jason, Ithink we need to have a much
more fully or holistic kind ofhuman.
I don't mean that in ahumanistic way, but in a human
way that connects with peopleand the things that they're
(38:22):
actually looking for in life.
But you know we provide that.
And hey, by the way, I've toldDavid that David David is.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
you know, has already mentioned that he was one of
the kind of leading factors thatled me, led me back into it.
And it wasn't the conversations, although those were
fascinating, and it wasn't thelogic, although that was
fascinating, but it was watchingwho he was as a person, it was
seeing who he had beentransformed into and Javi, who
very sadly isn't on this callwith us, but the two of them
seeing who they are and seeingwho they were, and who they were
(38:51):
because of Christ, that was themotivating factor.
If I could take a quick questionwhat's the age?
Was there a median age that youfound that people tended to
realize, oh, none of this ismaking sense and I need to get
somewhere quickly.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Yeah, at least in that particular study, the
average age of leaving faith was15, and I would say it's a
little bit younger, but theaverage age of a catalyst was 26
.
They lived in atheism for about10 years on average.
(39:27):
Of course, some lived decades,some lived short periods, but
yeah, I guess it was the quarterlife crisis.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
What's interesting is there's actually some research
now that young men older teensare actually coming back to the
church at a larger rate, whichis incredible based on what
you've seen.
Speaker 1 (39:49):
Yes, Well, we just finished talking to some we just
finished talking to some youthand they made a really good
point.
He's he's 18, I think, and hesaid you know, you should, you
guys should be aware that we arein our age group.
There are many people who don'thave hobbies.
Their entire hobby is scrollingthrough their phone and they
don't do other things.
And I and I think that hassomething to do with it I, you
(40:10):
know, when you don't haveanything and you don't have any
purpose, there goes what yousaid before.
It's just opening up earlier inlife.
It's the realization that youneed something and that you're
lonely and that there's a bigworld out there and you're not a
part of it, and it's justcoming a little earlier now and
I think that has a lot to dowith it as well.
(40:31):
It was a really spot-on,insightful comment, yep um we're
yeah, no, I oh, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
I was going to say, yeah, I think it.
Actually.
It is interesting to see thistrend that's happened over the
past, I would say five years orso, uh, with jordan peterson
right, giving young mensomething like okay, get up,
make your bed, do somethingthat's purposeful.
You know, do something.
You know the full atheistmovement, christianity wasn't
true and it was not good.
(41:01):
Now, you know, people aresaying, well, no, actually it
(41:24):
helped stabilize society.
There's really good moralstructure in the Bible, you know
.
There's something good andmeaningful and and something
worth hanging on to a solidfoundation, a rock rather than
sand.
You know, all these things thatare allowing these young men
who are craving in this societywhere femininity is masculinized
(41:47):
and you know the masculine isfeminized um, you know, and
they're, they're searching fortheir identity going.
No, we're not like that, wewant to be more, we need more,
you know, and they're actuallygoing to very demanding forms of
christianity, even orthodoxyand catholicism, and even
(42:08):
charismatic movement.
There, um, things that seemreal or true or even weird, you
know, like something to hang onto that's different than the
world.
Speaker 1 (42:18):
And it's exciting, yeah, it's ironic because,
stoicism had a big you know, hada big rise over the past 10
years or so, and the problemwith anybody who ever tried
stoicism is that it's a longgame with no end and not a very
fruitful one at that.
And yet when you look at thediscipline that is required to
(42:40):
be stoic and then you look atthe discipline that is required
to be faithful in the OldTestament, new Testament version
, you actually see somethingvery similar, except you have an
end in sight and you're notalone and there are others who
care for you, and there is a Godwho is on your side.
And it's like and I was lookingat that the other day I was
(43:01):
like that's really aninteresting byproduct of no
meaning is that you could findthe thing that's very, very
similar yet has meaning, andpull it all together.
And now, now here we are andthank God we are.
Speaker 3 (43:17):
Yeah, yeah, I think there's a movement, I think
there's a movement.
Speaker 2 (43:21):
So one of the things that, uh, I just want to leave
with is, uh, even people like me, who've you know, seem like I
have it all together.
I have all the information.
I love to defend the faith.
Uh, I love to read through theBible.
There are moments we have whereI started going through
imposter syndrome.
the other day, oh for sure, andone of the people that I reached
out to was Jana, and actuallywas the only person who was able
(43:44):
to give me some advice to pullme out, which I truly appreciate
.
But, jana, where can listenersfollow your work, your podcast,
where can they hear from you?
Because I think what you say isreally valuable to a lot of
people.
Speaker 3 (44:00):
Most of the work that I do is with ExSkeptic.
So we have a website,exskepticorg.
We have a YouTube channel.
One of the greatest things orgreatest is that terrible to say
about your own?
One of the greatest things orgreatest is that terrible to say
about your own website?
But when people here's thething these stories.
(44:22):
we have over 120 stories now offormer atheists and skeptics,
but they don't only just givetheir story so you can kind of
see how someone moves fromresistance to openness to faith
but they also give advice toChristians who are trying to
engage with non-believers orskeptics, and they also, as
former skeptics, give advice tocurious skeptics as to how to
(44:45):
take steps forward towards Godand what we've done, because if
somebody comes to our site,they're like well, gee, there's
so many stories.
You know where do I go.
We've developed playlists ofcertain types of stories you
know and certain certain hardquestions like can I believe in
science and God?
It was, so we've created aplaylist of stories that
(45:06):
particularly deal with thatissue.
Or is it rational to believe inGod?
Or you know, I don't.
You know what.
What about you know?
Does it really matter that Ibelieve in God?
Or you know what?
If life hurts?
Is God good?
Or you know?
There's just a lot of differentplaylists that that we're still
in the process of developing.
We we have developed nine ofthose.
(45:27):
So if you're looking forsomething particular, certain
kind of story that you thinkthat might be helpful, take a
look on our YouTube channelagain.
That's outstanding.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Amazing and not to self-promote, but I do believe I
make an appearance on one ofthose episodes coming up.
Speaker 3 (45:43):
You do, on August 15th, your episode David's
episodes.
There you go, we're going tohave a premiere, we're going to
have a red carpet.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
We're going to do the whole thing for him.
We're going to have a premiere,we're going to have a red
carpet.
We're going to do the wholething for them.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
We're going to do the whole thing.
Yes, top hat and all yes.
Top hat and all yes.
Yeah, jason, it sounds like youneed to come over to the
premiere as well.
I would appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
I would be very enjoyable as well.
But, Janet, this has been sowonderful.
I have appreciated this.
I have taken way too much ofthe talking part of this and I
apologize for that to David and.
Speaker 2 (46:14):
Daniel, it's good to see you so excited, and
hopefully Jan will allow me tokeep poking in emails at her, so
I'll spend a little time withher.
Speaker 1 (46:22):
Well, we really appreciate your time.
We appreciate your insights.
They are outstanding.
We would love to do this againwith slightly less technical
problems, maybe next time, butwe appreciate you.
We are thankful for you and toall of our listeners we are also
thankful to you.
We appreciate you, weappreciate your time.
We know you could be doing lotsof other things, but you are
here with us learning about God,learning about why it's
(46:44):
important to continue thisjourney of faith and even how to
help those around you becomecloser in that faith or come to
that faith.
Also appreciate your likes,comments, reviews and we look
forward to talking to you nextweek.
Thanks a lot, thank you.
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