August 6, 2025 • 33 mins
Have you ever considered what happens when divine reality breaks through our human experience? The Transfiguration might be one of the most mind-bending, reality-shattering moments in scripture, yet many believers barely understand its significance.
High atop a mountain—likely Mount Hermon near Caesarea Philippi—Jesus brings Peter, James, and John to witness something extraordinary. As Jesus begins to pray, his appearance transforms dramatically. His face glows with radiant light, and his clothes become dazzlingly white. Then, impossibly, Moses and Elijah appear beside him, conversing about Jesus' coming "exodus" in Jerusalem.
The symbolism runs incredibly deep. Moses, representing the Law, and Elijah, representing the Prophets, stand alongside Jesus, showing how Christ fulfills both pillars of Hebrew scripture. This convergence happens on a mountain, connecting to God's revelations throughout biblical history—Moses on thunderous Mount Sinai and Elijah hearing God's whisper on Mount Horeb. Now Jesus, bringing both together, reveals his divine nature on yet another sacred peak.
What makes this encounter truly fascinating is how it appears to transcend time itself. Moses, who died without entering the Promised Land, now stands within it beside Jesus. The Greek word describing their conversation about Jesus' coming sacrifice is "exodus," deliberately connecting Jesus' mission to Moses' liberation of Israel. Could this mystical moment reveal that God exists outside our linear understanding of time, bringing past, present, and future together in a shared "now"?
Peter's awkward suggestion to build three shelters demonstrates how human minds struggle to comprehend divine reality. We often respond to spiritual encounters with practical solutions from our religious traditions, missing the deeper significance. Jesus doesn't need a dwelling place—he himself is God's presence among us.
For those walking through doubt or difficulty, the Transfiguration offers profound hope. Like the disciples who carried this revelation through persecution and hardship, we glimpse that behind Jesus' human face shines the eternal glory of God—a transformative glory that continues to change lives today. The kingdom isn't just coming someday; it's breaking through right now, if we have eyes to see it.
What moment in your spiritual journey has given you a glimpse of eternal reality? We'd love to hear your story in the comments or through the text message link in your podcast app.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
My name is David Shapiro, hey,I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason
Holloway.
And we're back at the BoundlessBible, excited for this week's
conversation.
Guys, how you doing?
You sound excited.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Hey, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
How's it going?
I am very excited I'm doingwell.
I am looking forward to jumpinginto this really wild lesson, I
think, today and conversationabout something that is a little
bit confusing.
I'm not really sure why it'shere.
Many people don't know why it'shere.
Let's kind of jump in and talkabout the transfiguration it's
(00:40):
in several books right it's inseveral books.
You have luke 9, 28 to 36.
You have mark 9 2 through 8 andmatthew 17, 1 through 8.
Okay, uh, you have thetransfiguration and let's just
kind of uh jump into, uh, rightafter, very closely after, um,
you have cesare philippi, youhave jesus and cesare philippi
(01:03):
yeah, they're going up to amountain.
It is Jesus and three othersgoing up the mountain.
Do we know who those are?
Peter?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
James and the other cousin I don't remember his name
John John.
Yeah, John, James and John.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Moses and Elijah.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Later.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
They meet them up there.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Good call but yes, later they meet them up there.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
But, yes, they meet them up there.
So they go up this mountain andthere's this, uh, you know this
wonderful transfiguration thathappens.
But first I'm just going to goover the mountains that are used
in this, right, uh, so there'sactually some some debate on
this, because the exact mountainare not a hundred percent known
, right, uh?
So you have mount tabor, whichmost people actually think this
(01:45):
is the mountain that they wereup on are not 100% known.
So you have Mount Tabor, whichmost people actually think this
is the mountain that they wereup on.
Yeah, however, if you look atarchaeology which I love, they
happen to believe that there wasa Roman garrison on top of this
mountain.
Okay, this mountain was not thetallest in the area and there
was a garrison on top, so itcouldn't have been this mountain
without others seeing this.
Okay, mount Hermon, which isactually closer to Caesarea
(02:09):
Philippi, caesarea Philippi Okay, mount Hermon is closer, it's
taller and it actually fits.
Yep, and it actually fitsMatthew 17.1, being the height
of the mountain and away fromeverything else.
So this Mount Hermon happens tofit this description.
When you actually look at thetwo that appeared with Jesus,
(02:30):
moses and Elijah, there are alsotwo mountains in question.
So, moses, everyone goes.
Which mountain?
Mount Sinai?
Yeah, we're clear on that Handsdown right.
Okay, but Elijah, there are twothat people again, it doesn't
say specifically when thishappens, because mount carmel,
he's up there with one part ofhis story.
Okay, there's also mount horub,which he goes up at, which has
(02:52):
another name.
Does anybody know the othername for mount horub?
I don't know.
Mount sinai okay, so mountsinai, when it is used in terms
of kind of think of sinai is thepeak and horub is the mountain
area, the mountain ranges but,when you look at mount horrib,
when it is described in thebible, it is described as um
(03:12):
quiet, the whisper.
So this is where, again veryquietly, elijah is talking to
god.
Okay, and mount sinai is knownas thunderous, and you have
Moses on top of this mountain.
So, right off the bat, you havethis.
It's really cool.
But you have this moment whereyou have thunder and whisper,
(03:34):
all pointing to Jesus.
Okay, so this is the firstsymbolic moment of why these
mountains are chosen.
What's happening on top of them?
You literally have not onlythat, you have the law and
prophecy coming togetherpointing to jesus.
Yeah, uh, you have all thesesymbolisms and explain why the
law and prophecy.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
That's an important thing so moses.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Moses represents the law right and elijah represents
the prophecy, and you now havethe prophets and the law all
pointing towards jesus, whichjesus actually says later in
luke.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
By the way, we'll get to that another day, but yeah,
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
He does.
This is just.
It's the first symbolic thingthat you look at, when you're
just looking at what mountainsthey're on and it doesn't tell
much about what's going on.
But it's the first part ofsymbology, which is just really
cool.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
I'm not sure we mentioned what is the
transfiguration and whathappened.
Go for it.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah, tell the story yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
All right, go for it.
Yeah, just for those that maybedon't know yeah, so Jesus goes
up to this mountain and he's inface with God, pretty much he's
talking to God and he'stransfigured Pretty much.
His clothes are white.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
His face changes.
His face is glowing white right.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Clothes are white His face changes.
His face is glowing white right.
His face changes.
Yeah, and then we see alsoMoses and Elijah there.
Jesus, obviously, like we said,david said before that he goes
up with John Peter and James.
Yeah, so they're all up on thismountain and this is what
happens to Jesus as he speaks toMoses and Elijah and, of course
(05:04):
, God.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
And then Peter asks to build shelters, correct.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Which, again, more symbolism.
We'll get there.
Okay, more symbolism, yeah, gofor it.
He said let's build three tents.
This is great that we're here.
We'll build three tents.
Right, they don't need threetents.
You know why?
Because the tents represent.
They represent the tabernacle.
That's the tenting.
We don't need three tabernacles, you only need one, and you're
with him, so you don't need it.
(05:28):
He doesn't need a dwellingplace, they don't need a
dwelling place.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
You're with the.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
God.
So he kind of looks at Peter.
He did you know in a way whereyou don't know what you're
talking about.
Yeah, you don't need threetabernacles, because I'm the
only one.
You don't even need one,because I'm with you.
I don't need a dwelling place.
I'm dwelling with you right now.
Yeah, wow, hold on.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Give me a minute, the moment of a kid like standing
up in class asking the wrongquestion.
Yeah or asking the right likeooh.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Well, but this is really significant, right, like
they have been traveling withGod, yep, they should now
watched him do miracles outsideof a temple, which is a big deal
, because no miracles happenedoutside of a temple previously.
They watched all that.
They saw that they should haveunderstood by then.
Then they go up the mountain.
They watch him turn into anangelic being.
(06:15):
They see the law and theprophets.
Join with Jesus in the same waythat he has been speaking of,
and they still ask the questionjoin with Jesus in the same way
that he has been speaking of,right?
And they still ask the questionshould we permanently place a
structure here because we needto put a structure like a temple
(06:35):
?
Yeah, right, so they stillhaven't gotten it, and so it's
just this other reminder thatyou can see it dead on with your
eyes.
Yeah, you can experience itwith your faith and your heart
and yourself, and still notquite get it.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Yeah, so to me, that's the reason why he brought
them up to see thistransfiguration.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Poor Peter, though he's always the one that Jesus
is like for real.
For real, dude, come on man.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
But it's always him, though.
Like three years.
Three years, I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Three years he actually says how long must I be
with you while you act likethis?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, but that's what it is.
I think that's the reason whyhe brought them up.
For them to see him talking toGod and see him in Transfinger
is to show like, hey, I'm notjust a rabbi, I am, you know, I
am the son of God, which in allthree cases, I believe they had
(07:27):
already said you are the messiah, he says who do people think
that I am?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
has that happened before this?
It happened just before this,actually, I think it in, at
least in luke.
I know it happens right before.
This is.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
This is a moment where he is uh, literally the
the philippi is where uh therock of um peter peter so this
is where he already right.
So peter already proves heknows who he is, which is why he
says I'm going to build thechurch.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Cause he says who do you, who do people say that I am
Right, that's what happensbefore this.
Who do people say that I?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
am, that's exactly.
That's right before this, rightbefore, okay, so that's again
super significant to look.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I don't believe I know it is in luke, for sure, um
.
And then in luke, right afterthat, he says after he says that
, yes, you are the messiah, hesays some of you here will not
pass to your final days untilyou have seen the kingdom of god
, something.
Yes, right, yeah.
And so now this is like theprecursor, that's, that's the
foreshadowing of in a coupledays.
You're about to go up to thismountain and see me transfigure,
(08:22):
and see that for sure.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
The kingdom of God is right there.
That's good.
That's a good point actually.
Yeah, I think it's amazing thathe's bringing up the three.
There's so many symbolism there, right, having this close guys
that know more than maybe theother 12.
There's all that, right.
Why bring the three up?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
They're the first three.
Actually, now that I thinkabout it, they're the first
three.
That was.
There was all the ones he hegot right in the beginning.
Right, it was peter, james andjohn.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Yeah and I don't so that's the people.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
So maybe it's not like the most faithful.
Maybe it's the, the three whohad known him the longest, who
would have the most reason tonot believe.
They had seen him in the, inthe flesh, more time than
anybody else.
So to watch him transfigurewould be the most impactful for
those.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
It could be.
Uh, there's not anythingwritten on it.
No, it definitely could be.
Yeah, uh, but now what do theytalk about?
And this is the part where,okay, yeah, transfiguration
happens.
Sure, you have jesus with mosesand elijah.
What in the world are theytalking about?
So we could say, okay, onerepresents law, one represents
prophecy, and then you, you haveJesus.
So why they're there?
(09:26):
Okay, but what are they saying?
And the only reference we haveto that, really, if you look at
Luke 9, 30 to 31, they mention adeparture.
That's really the only wordsthat are understood is departure
.
The word for departure used forJesus so this is jesus's
departure is the same word forexodus.
(09:48):
Okay, so again you go.
Well, that's why moses wasthere.
It's the exodus.
But no, this is really the onlywording that we have in this
entire interaction is that jesusis going to have to depart.
Yeah, so we can look at that ashis sacrifice.
He's going to have to departsacrificially.
This is the exodus of all ofthe people who deserve
(10:10):
punishment in hell into theexodus into heaven.
So there's a lot of, again,symbolic things we can look at
at that moment, but we don'treally have any idea what the
conversation was?
We have no clue, yeah Right.
So this is where I'm going toget a little crazy.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
If you want to respond before I get a little
nuts.
No, look, I I think that's.
I think that's interesting.
Like I just read the same thing.
The greek is exodus, so it it'sabout that and I think it's
interesting.
Before we even get into that, II think we're talking about
moses and elijah being up therewith them.
You know they're moses is thelaw and elijah is the prophet.
Is the prophets in the fatherof those books, those sections
of the torah right, was mosessaid to have died and been
(10:53):
pulled up to heaven.
Was he?
I think elijah's the only onewho ever resurrected.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Well, just because we're getting into that, okay,
all right.
One of the really cool thingsthat you don't realize is, um,
right now they're on a mountainin the promised land, right?
That moses never got to go to,right?
This is the first time we seemoses in the promised land,
actually, so he died prior tobeing allowed into the promised
land, and now jesus has invitedhim into the promised land for
(11:21):
the first time, so it's reallycool to actually and if we want
to go time bending, stuff right.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
If we want to go like time bending was when he was up
on mount sinai, was he actuallyup on?
Speaker 1 (11:30):
the same mountain.
That's where am I at the future, so, and that's where my crazy
goes, yeah well, let's go, let'sgo crazy, let's go crazy, let's
go hyper speed.
Was this a vision from theirtime?
Was this a vision from theirtime or is this God, pulling all
three into a shared now,because time does not exist for
God?
So is this something whereMoses and Elijah have been
(11:51):
speaking from their own time,which Moses was around 1400 BC,
elijah was about 800 BC, andGod's glory transcends time.
So he again Moses, I mean Jesusnow is ripping off the fleshly
self he is turning into, he'stransfiguring into God,
(12:11):
transcending time and pullingthese two into the what they
consider shared now.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
They're there now.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Right.
So this was God.
He's not breaking into time,he's just taking time that we're
bound from out of the picture.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
So what I'm hearing you saying is when Moses was on
the mountain talking and Elijahwas on the mountain talking to
God and Jesus was on themountain talking to what we see
here in the Gospels.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
They were all actually talking to him.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
It was about the same time for their own time.
Yes, is what you're trying tosay?
Yes, before.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Abraham.
I am Not, I was, I am.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
So when Moses was on the mountain talking, he was
actually talking to Jesus.
Jesus was there in the mountainwith him at the same time.
Could have been yeah, yeah,yeah, could have been.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
It makes sense.
I'm just trying to clarify.
It makes total sense, right,diverse?
Speaker 3 (13:00):
I have questions on that, but let's do it.
So, uh, I do I.
That's actually a good point.
I think it's an interesting wayto look at it.
My questions would be there wasthings being said to moses at
that time.
He was getting, he was gettingthe covenant right, he was
getting all the laws down.
At that time he was doing thejob wasn't because he was
writing down I say the job,because he was writing down the
(13:22):
tablets, everything that he wasthere for 40 days, 40 nights,
right.
So he was writing down I saythe job because he was writing
down the tablets, everythingthat he was there for 40 days,
40 nights, right.
So he was there for a long timewriting down this work.
And to me, my question is well,if he's there with Jesus and
they're having this interactionI mean, in 40 days, you could
maybe break apart and go, hey,oh hey, if God was talking to
(13:43):
him, telling him things for hispeople at that time, why would
Jesus be there?
Wouldn't that interaction be alittle bit?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
You just answer your own question, you go.
He was talking and interactingat that time.
If there is no time Jesus cantalk to Moses at any point in
time in history can talk toElijah, it doesn't mean that
he's going to put them rightback in that time period and
then time exists again.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Imagine.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
How come you don't remember that Right?
Because we just had thisinteraction.
The interaction happenedoutside of time, in God's world.
Okay, this is the world that weattain to become part of, so
when we go to heaven, yeah, partof being in God's world is time
no longer exists.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Right being in.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
God's world is time no longer exists, so we're going
.
If I'm pulled out of time, I'min an area now where I can see
things and be part of thingsthat are happening past, present
, future, sure.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
But there was things that were being said, though, so
God confirmed his son sayingthis is I have it here, sorry.
So God says to them on themountain he goes uh, this is my
son whom I chosen, listen to him.
So to me, moses heard that, soI haven't.
I don't know if Moses everwrote anything prophesying for
(15:02):
Jesus to promise to come, theson to be.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Nope Again.
First, we're assuming thatmoses heard it, because this
wasn't directed towards moses.
Is directed towards the threeapostles peter, jacob, but even
if he did we're again?
We're pulling yourself out ofthe normal linear time.
Yeah, so I can hear things inthe future that haven't happened
yet.
It doesn't mean that when I goback to the past, I know the
future.
If time does not exist in God'sworld, it does exist in human
(15:28):
world.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
I don't think it necessarily.
I don't see it quite as the.
I mean, I know what you'resaying.
We've had these kind of liketime bending conversations
before where, look, if youreally want to get weird for a
second, well, that whole conceptis weird and the foundation of
it, meaning the rules behind it,is weird right, but it's
actually not unreasonable, sothink about the fact that if
(15:50):
time is broken in half and timeis broken in half and time is
broken if a second is broken inhalf and then that second is
broken in half and that's brokenin half and that broken,
eventually.
There has to be a middle.
That is nothing.
There has to be a point whenall time stops.
So time can stop right thisvery second.
You and I could have stoppedtalking right at this very
second and 10 million worldscould have happened in that in
the span of that time.
And then we come back to thismoment and never realized that a
hundred million lifetimes wentthrough Like time is a weird
(16:13):
concept right.
So let's just go back to like ifit is a timeless place.
What David's saying is likeessentially in all of their
worlds at the same time, timewould have stopped across time
and they would have merged inthat non-time space to be able
to speak about it, Whether theyknew about it after they came
back, who knows, maybe it wasjust a ripple in time.
(16:33):
Now I actually don't thinkthat's what happened.
If we have to go in that world,clearly they all stood on top
of a mountain.
We got that right.
Let's go way more physical.
They were all standing on topof a mountain, potentially even
the same mountain at separatetimes in history.
I kind of see it as, like youknow, when dr strange like does
(16:55):
his hand around.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Then you get that like uh, the, the, the time loop
, not even time, but like theycan jump through a portal.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Right, they have this portal where you can jump
through to go to differentplaces in space.
Well, if you can go throughspace, you can go through time.
So what's the difference?
It's like they're on top of themountain and like god opens a
portal and they can all look ateach other through the portal.
And they can all look at eachother and see each other and
they're kind of doing like thespider man, like pointing at one
another like you and you andyou and you and, but they, they
look at each other and they havea conversation and they, they,
(17:19):
they speak to one another aboutwhat's coming and what was and
what is.
Yeah, and and again.
Who knows whether we're we'reimplying a whole lot here, but
there's a clear statement here.
They spoke about his departure,which means that and and again,
the word exodos and it meanshis physical departure.
So you know any it's anyonegame as to what they talked
(17:40):
about, but they definitely hadthis conversation, which means,
if they knew it, abraham alreadyknew what was coming, elijah
already knew what was coming,and that's a really fascinating
concept.
That, like, that's also whathelped them to have the strength
and commitment to move on, evenif it was like dreamlike state,
like even if it was a dreamlikestate.
Sometimes we all have thesemoments in our life where we
have this like awakening, orthis enlightenment.
(18:01):
Enlightenment like, literally,light shines big on our lives.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Yeah, and we say that felt really true and that gives
you the faith to keep goingyeah, for me, I I look at it as
what is what it reads, right,it's, it's how we see the angels
appear.
That's how I see how abrahamand elijah appeared.
Oh interesting.
Yeah, not through a portal oranything, he just just he just
appeared right.
I won't say magically, but like, just just he just appeared
(18:26):
right.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
I won't say magically , but like they just disappeared
on the mountain I'm glad yousaid that, because that's why I
was asking about their positionafter death.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, so moses died elijah, they actually don't have
his died.
Okay, right, well, that's why.
That's why I knew, but I don'tremember the moses thing, but he
never the body, never found thebody?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
yeah, is that what it was?
Moses died.
So there is again.
This goes into debate of did uhsatan fight?
Found the body?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, is that what it was.
Moses died.
So there is again this goesinto debate of did Satan fight
for the body of Moses?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
That's right.
I thought about that.
I knew there was somethingthere.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
There's a lot behind it, but we don't really know.
Okay, so we don't know abouthim, but we do know that Elijah
was said to have lived.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
We know that he did not make it into the promised
land, per the Bible that Elijahnever died, so is there a chance
that was Elijah at the top ofthe mountain?
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Right?
Well, that's what we read thatit is Moses and Elijah there,
right?
Or the guys like how would Lukeknow that this is Moses and
Elijah, right, right, and also-.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Well, matthew and Mark and Luke all said the same
thing.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Right, right they all say the same thing.
What I'm trying to say is howis that person in the New
Testament at that time knowsElijah?
How he looks like he's notwearing a name tag saying I'm
Elijah.
That's a good point, Right Tothem.
That's what's being revealed tothem through God, as God also
spoke to them.
Right, he spoke to thedisciples that were there,
saying, hey, this is my son.
He's you know, he's the oneRight.
(19:41):
And these are symbolism thatshowing that he is the
fulfillment of the law and thefulfillment of the prophet.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Look, at you, that's knowledge.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
That's who he is, he is the guy.
So they walk away from thatgoing.
Well, Jesus said when you walkaway from here, don't say
anything to anybody, Because notjust yet, but to know that I am
who I am.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Right Through this body.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
And it happens after they again just a man, I'm also
you have to take 10 steps backfrom this thing too, because
it's really no, you're, you'recompletely on it right now for
me, like I think.
I think I'm right with you Ithink, because we get caught on
the details sometimes andsometimes you have to step back
and ask yourself the biggerpicture, right?
So just before this, he hadasked who do you think I am?
And Peter said I think you arethe Messiah.
(20:26):
And he basically said cool, youare the Jewish Messiah.
Now you can be let.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, you're the Jewish Messiah.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Now you can be, now I can let you in to the proof of
that.
I don't want to let everybodyelse in, because I was thinking
about this actually last nightand I don't know what brought it
up, but why did he keep tellingeverybody?
I don't know what brought it up, but why did he keep telling
everybody?
I don't want you to know, Idon't want people to know, I
don't want people to know.
Why did he keep doing that?
And I think it's because ifeverybody believed he was a
Messiah, then everybody wouldhave.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Then then there's no belief in themselves, right?
They can't, I can't come freelyto you, right?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
no-transcript, he was the thing he said.
He was yeah, but it's ex postfacto, it's after the fact.
Yeah, it's after the fact andthat's that's.
The point is like you need toknow about it later and then you
need to go.
What did I do like?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
the only and again I'm getting back on the time
thing only because, okay, jesuscould have done this in any
moment.
He could have just turnedhimself into a white
transfiguration with nobodyaround, the father coming
through the heavens right, likethat's the weird part about
writing, but yeah, I mean therecould have been that moment, the
reason why I believe he went upon the mountain and had this
interaction with two people fromcompletely different eras, from
(22:06):
where?
he was yeah, yeah, um, I thinkis.
I do think it's also to showthat a little glimpse of what
time really does and that itdoesn't really exist.
I think there's a reason for it.
It's not just, hey, well, whatdoes that mean?
I think that there's importance, and and the importance of is a
couple things.
One is eternal life doesn'tstart after death, it starts now
, which is why believing is soimportant.
(22:27):
Yes, so I don't think he'sgoing.
Hey, you can wait, you havetime, you have this Believing
and the actual gaining heavenstarts now.
Yeah, I think so.
Time wise, he's showing thatthere's less relevance to time.
That's a deep one.
I think that Jesus is not boundby time, so he's meeting us
where we are.
He can heal our past, presentand guide our future.
(22:48):
I think he's showing now again,moses not having been allowed
into the promised land, and nowhe's there.
This would have hadsignificance to a Jewish person
looking at that going.
Why is Moses here when God saidyou will not enter, and now
he's entered.
I think that it shows that GodJesus, well, spiritually.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Also spiritually he entered.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
He didn't necessarily , but I think that it shows that
God can heal your past.
Yeah, that he's outside of time.
Yeah, and then also, you know,just in a nice that sounds
really nice type of way, ourprayers are echoed into eternity
without a time limit.
So when we pray and we're like,how come this isn't happening
now?
There's no time limit on ourprayers in heaven?
(23:33):
I think we look at thingsthrough time.
This is how we are, and whenyou look at God, what he's
showing us right there, he'sgoing.
I am beyond time, so you needto believe in me now, in your
time now, but I'm bringing allof these people together from
these different time periods inthe quote unquote now, the
shared now.
(23:54):
I just happen to think thatthis is yes, to start talking
about time and the lack of timeand rules around that, and we go
.
We don't know what that wouldbe like because we don't have
that ability.
God does, yeah, and I thinkwhen he's showing us this
ability of of how he's bringingall these people um throughout
time, and I don't believe thisis just.
This is their quote-unquoteghost, this is their soul, I
(24:17):
think this is actually them, uh,in this moment, with jesus, at
that very mountain, I'll tellyou this um, as I look at the
disciples right, let's.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
I'm backing out a little bit you this as I look at
the disciples right, I'mbacking out a little bit from
Jesus.
I'm looking at the disciplesnow For them to see this the
guys, james, peter, john is thefoundation of what's going to
happen after Jesus died.
He's the foundation of tocontinue forward, of what Jesus
(24:45):
they're the foundation For themto see this.
It holds so much weight tomoving forward.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
I feel like I don't know if they're the Listen.
There were a lot of theapostles that if you talk to
people in India who Thomas wentand preached to them, I don't
know if they're going to look atPeter as the foundation.
No, no, but Peter was calledthe rock.
No, no, but I think, when youlook at 12 disciples, 12
apostles that went and did thiswork afterwards, I don't think
(25:12):
you can pick out three and goyou.
Three were the reason.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Don't get me wrong, sorry.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Let's not say the foundation.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
What I'm trying to say is this when things started
happening to Jesus as far asbeing captured, imprisonment
them, being them after he died,this was their strength.
This is the strength.
This is something.
You go back and you go.
No, no, no, no, no.
This is the God that promisesus.
This is he was actually God.
He was the one that was sentfor us.
He has a promise for us.
(25:38):
He has a rule for us.
We, I'm he's going to lead usforward.
He said this and I believe himbecause I saw this through God
and how I know this Cause, justlike Moses, what I do believe
for them, right, them being John, peter and James.
They believe in Moses, theybelieve in the law.
They believe that Moses spoketo God.
He was transfigured, as hewasn't transfigured, but he was
(25:59):
white as white, right, when hetalked to God, he was white.
I'm seeing this through Jesus.
Wow, this is actually God.
I see the cloud that we talkedabout.
That we know from the storiesof Moses.
He's speaking to God.
This is something that holdsyou when you're going through
the rut, when you're goingthrough down.
You're going.
God was there before.
(26:20):
God was here.
He showed me his face.
He is present, he is alive, heis real, yeah is real.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, I, I don't disagree with that.
I also think I mean again toyour point it doesn't make them
the three most important rightthere.
There could be others, but Ialways hate to take the three
steps beyond like what we reallyknow.
But who knows, maybe thomasneeded them to come down and
like he was called doubting hewas doubting, maybe he needed,
maybe and he was super importantin india, for sure but maybe he
actually needed for james tocome down and go.
You know, dude, I saw thatthat's real, real, like that's
not, that's, that's not fake,that's real right with all three
(26:52):
of them seeing it, all three ofthem still doubted, still had
moments afterwards, so even itsounds.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I'm saying I don't know if this is necessarily
about hey, we saw this and nowwe believe because they still
don't fully.
I don't think this is a momentof.
I think it's bigger than thatexactly, and I think it's bigger
.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
And I actually think it's bigger for a reason.
You won't think I'm going tosay it's bigger.
I think it's bigger because,you know, I agree it's bigger
than that.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
I'm just trying to say that yeah this is.
This is something that, to me,is why those three and why,
whatever it is and maybe itdoesn't matter as much, but is
the significance there leadingforward?
To lead this like Like they ledthis forward.
What happens after?
Even though they doubted, weall doubt Moses, doubt Moses,
you know like, like Moses sawGod, he spoke to God, he still
(27:37):
doubted he still complained hestill.
that's why he didn't make thepromise.
That's what we're talking abouthere.
So like it's okay to say that,but to have that, to know that,
to see that I think it holdssome weight.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
This is an and thing for me, right?
This is not a this or that.
I think you're right.
I think you're right, I thinkalso the important part and I
kind of mentioned this earlierif anybody hadn't been on the
mountain, nobody would haveknown about it, so had to have
somebody on the mountain,somebody who was going to be a
part of it, like somebody whoSomebody who was going to be a
part of the writing of the Biblelater, or else nobody would
have known.
In fact, Jesus went off to gopray alone a lot.
(28:11):
Does that mean he did thisother times?
Speaker 3 (28:14):
That says Jesus but don't believe him as God.
This is another way of sayinghey, we saw it with our own eyes
.
He is the glorified God that weworship.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
And, again, part of what we do is we look at the
text and we try to explain it,like everyone does, and I look
at it and go why do they choosethese three people to be up
there to witness?
Versus one, versus all of them,versus whatever?
And I'm going.
I do believe that there is waymore on, and I and there is very
possible, like most things,there's a lot of layers.
So, yes, these three men weresupposed to see this.
Yes, they need to need to writeit down.
Yes, it's possible that Mosesand Elijah were chosen because
(28:52):
it is prophetic and it is law.
Yes, it's true that they wereall on mountains.
It could also be true that theyall appeared at the same time,
because time doesn't exist andthey're shared now.
There could be multiple reasons.
That's why I love this moment.
Yeah, there's so much symbolism, there's so much possibility to
it, that it could be as and Idon't want to say small or easy,
because, listen, jesus,transferring into you know his,
(29:13):
his self, um, is not an easything, but it could be as simple
as there were three guys wentup to the mountain, witnessed it
, and that was it, um, or itcould be a lot deeper.
I just love that this momenthad happened and that listen,
we're talking about this 2,000years later, right.
Going.
You know I don't understandwhat's going on, but and then we
(29:36):
get into things.
Like you know, time, yeah, doestime exist?
And these crazy little journeys.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Well, that's the beauty of these stories.
Again, I've said this, we'veall said this several times like
these, these shortish storieshave they're.
They're created in such a waythat they can be pushed and
pulled and tweaked and messedwith to understand deeper things
that we just never would have,we just never would have
understood otherwise.
And when you, the point ofscripture is to wrestle with it.
The point of scripture is todig into it, to find the meaning
(30:05):
behind it, to to figure it outwhere it doesn't quite make
sense, to.
I don't know what it's like forsome.
I've never stood on top of amountain and seen three people
that weren't there previously.
I've never done that.
So what does that mean?
You know what is.
What does that mean?
Speaker 3 (30:17):
well, I have a question there, because if it
was mount herman, you're talkingabout like 10 000, 10 000 feet
or something like.
I can't imagine scaling amountain in those sandals, man
In those sandals.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
That's true.
There is how, how Well listenthere are competitions every
year going up Pikes Peak, whichis 14,000 feet in Colorado every
year.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
So I mean it's Not in sandals.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Not in sandals, no, probably not.
But yeah, it is, it's a hike.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
I mean they're walking, they're walking yeah, I
mean, I think it's.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
I think the whole thing's fascinating.
I also am curious knowing thatthe whole story really revolves
around mountains.
I wonder if that is the originof the mountaintop experience
thing that we talk about today.
It could be I also you know, thevery first I didn't know about
the whole tents being sacred.
I didn't know that's what thatwas until until you just said
(31:14):
that.
So previous to that, I thoughtthat the tents were his, were
peter's attempt to sustain themoment, and I was like this is a
beautiful moment he's dealingwith, he's existing in this
moment.
He's like, oh wow, I see jesusand elijah and moses and I'm
like overcome with joy andemotion and incredible feelings.
I want this to last, like wasit his.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Of course it could just be three tenths.
I mean the, the.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Ant version does say it's sacred, so I didn't caught
that before.
But like, it's definitely whatyou said earlier previously.
But it's also like, does hejust want, to like, live in this
moment and again, don't we allknow that moment of having this
enlightened moment and being Iwant to live in?
Speaker 3 (31:50):
what I read from.
What I read from that is petersaying um, we're just here, like
, can we help you anything?
Yeah, you're like master,should we even be here?
Um, hey, I can make someshelter, I can make some tests
for you, like you guys want somesoup.
It's cold up here I don't knowwhat like you guys are chit
chatting over there.
I don't know what you want usto do here.
That's what I mean exactly.
Yeah, no.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
I totally see that too, like he's like all
uncomfortable and awkward andhe's like you guys good, you
guys good.
Yeah, I love that guys, this isyet another interesting and
thought provoking conversation.
We hope that anyone listeninghas also had some thoughts
provoked.
It's interesting stuff.
It's really.
It's really I don't know.
It's just so fun to dig intothe details and to to ask
(32:34):
questions about the things thatwe don't understand, right, and
to ask questions about thethings we do understand, to see
if there's something deeperbehind them.
So we enjoy the opportunity tobe able to talk amongst
ourselves and to let you listenin, but we would love it if you
guys would be a part of theconversation as well.
So make sure you're leaving ussome comments, some uh, you know
, send us emails, send us a textmessage.
(32:57):
You can check in your podcastand there's actually a text
message link, uh and we willreceive it.
Um, but we love theseconversations.
This is what we do.
We don't even need to be on apodcast and we do this all the
time.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
This is just what we do for fun.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
So if you want to be part of the fun, let us know.
Please review us on the social,not on the social.
Please review us on the podcastchannels and we look forward to
talking to you again next week.
Thanks, guys, have a good one.
Have a blessed week.
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
My name is David Shapiro, hey,I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason
Holloway.
And we're back at the BoundlessBible, excited for this week's
conversation.
Guys, how you doing?
You sound excited.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
Hey, yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
How's it going?
I am very excited I'm doingwell.
I am looking forward to jumpinginto this really wild lesson, I
think, today and conversationabout something that is a little
bit confusing.
I'm not really sure why it'shere.
Many people don't know why it'shere.
Let's kind of jump in and talkabout the transfiguration it's
(00:40):
in several books right it's inseveral books.
You have luke 9, 28 to 36.
You have mark 9 2 through 8 andmatthew 17, 1 through 8.
Okay, uh, you have thetransfiguration and let's just
kind of uh jump into, uh, rightafter, very closely after, um,
you have cesare philippi, youhave jesus and cesare philippi
(01:03):
yeah, they're going up to amountain.
It is Jesus and three othersgoing up the mountain.
Do we know who those are?
Peter?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
James and the other cousin I don't remember his name
John John.
Yeah, John, James and John.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Moses and Elijah.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Later.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
They meet them up there.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Good call but yes, later they meet them up there.
Speaker 1 (01:24):
But, yes, they meet them up there.
So they go up this mountain andthere's this, uh, you know this
wonderful transfiguration thathappens.
But first I'm just going to goover the mountains that are used
in this, right, uh, so there'sactually some some debate on
this, because the exact mountainare not a hundred percent known
, right, uh?
So you have mount tabor, whichmost people actually think this
(01:45):
is the mountain that they wereup on are not 100% known.
So you have Mount Tabor, whichmost people actually think this
is the mountain that they wereup on.
Yeah, however, if you look atarchaeology which I love, they
happen to believe that there wasa Roman garrison on top of this
mountain.
Okay, this mountain was not thetallest in the area and there
was a garrison on top, so itcouldn't have been this mountain
without others seeing this.
Okay, mount Hermon, which isactually closer to Caesarea
(02:09):
Philippi, caesarea Philippi Okay, mount Hermon is closer, it's
taller and it actually fits.
Yep, and it actually fitsMatthew 17.1, being the height
of the mountain and away fromeverything else.
So this Mount Hermon happens tofit this description.
When you actually look at thetwo that appeared with Jesus,
(02:30):
moses and Elijah, there are alsotwo mountains in question.
So, moses, everyone goes.
Which mountain?
Mount Sinai?
Yeah, we're clear on that Handsdown right.
Okay, but Elijah, there are twothat people again, it doesn't
say specifically when thishappens, because mount carmel,
he's up there with one part ofhis story.
Okay, there's also mount horub,which he goes up at, which has
(02:52):
another name.
Does anybody know the othername for mount horub?
I don't know.
Mount sinai okay, so mountsinai, when it is used in terms
of kind of think of sinai is thepeak and horub is the mountain
area, the mountain ranges but,when you look at mount horrib,
when it is described in thebible, it is described as um
(03:12):
quiet, the whisper.
So this is where, again veryquietly, elijah is talking to
god.
Okay, and mount sinai is knownas thunderous, and you have
Moses on top of this mountain.
So, right off the bat, you havethis.
It's really cool.
But you have this moment whereyou have thunder and whisper,
(03:34):
all pointing to Jesus.
Okay, so this is the firstsymbolic moment of why these
mountains are chosen.
What's happening on top of them?
You literally have not onlythat, you have the law and
prophecy coming togetherpointing to jesus.
Yeah, uh, you have all thesesymbolisms and explain why the
law and prophecy.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
That's an important thing so moses.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Moses represents the law right and elijah represents
the prophecy, and you now havethe prophets and the law all
pointing towards jesus, whichjesus actually says later in
luke.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
By the way, we'll get to that another day, but yeah,
yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
He does.
This is just.
It's the first symbolic thingthat you look at, when you're
just looking at what mountainsthey're on and it doesn't tell
much about what's going on.
But it's the first part ofsymbology, which is just really
cool.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
I'm not sure we mentioned what is the
transfiguration and whathappened.
Go for it.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Yeah, tell the story yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
All right, go for it.
Yeah, just for those that maybedon't know yeah, so Jesus goes
up to this mountain and he's inface with God, pretty much he's
talking to God and he'stransfigured Pretty much.
His clothes are white.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
His face changes.
His face is glowing white right.
Speaker 3 (04:43):
Clothes are white His face changes.
His face is glowing white right.
His face changes.
Yeah, and then we see alsoMoses and Elijah there.
Jesus, obviously, like we said,david said before that he goes
up with John Peter and James.
Yeah, so they're all up on thismountain and this is what
happens to Jesus as he speaks toMoses and Elijah and, of course
(05:04):
, God.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
And then Peter asks to build shelters, correct.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Which, again, more symbolism.
We'll get there.
Okay, more symbolism, yeah, gofor it.
He said let's build three tents.
This is great that we're here.
We'll build three tents.
Right, they don't need threetents.
You know why?
Because the tents represent.
They represent the tabernacle.
That's the tenting.
We don't need three tabernacles, you only need one, and you're
with him, so you don't need it.
(05:28):
He doesn't need a dwellingplace, they don't need a
dwelling place.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
You're with the.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
God.
So he kind of looks at Peter.
He did you know in a way whereyou don't know what you're
talking about.
Yeah, you don't need threetabernacles, because I'm the
only one.
You don't even need one,because I'm with you.
I don't need a dwelling place.
I'm dwelling with you right now.
Yeah, wow, hold on.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Give me a minute, the moment of a kid like standing
up in class asking the wrongquestion.
Yeah or asking the right likeooh.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Well, but this is really significant, right, like
they have been traveling withGod, yep, they should now
watched him do miracles outsideof a temple, which is a big deal
, because no miracles happenedoutside of a temple previously.
They watched all that.
They saw that they should haveunderstood by then.
Then they go up the mountain.
They watch him turn into anangelic being.
(06:15):
They see the law and theprophets.
Join with Jesus in the same waythat he has been speaking of,
and they still ask the questionjoin with Jesus in the same way
that he has been speaking of,right?
And they still ask the questionshould we permanently place a
structure here because we needto put a structure like a temple
(06:35):
?
Yeah, right, so they stillhaven't gotten it, and so it's
just this other reminder thatyou can see it dead on with your
eyes.
Yeah, you can experience itwith your faith and your heart
and yourself, and still notquite get it.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Yeah, so to me, that's the reason why he brought
them up to see thistransfiguration.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Poor Peter, though he's always the one that Jesus
is like for real.
For real, dude, come on man.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
But it's always him, though.
Like three years.
Three years, I'm with you.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Three years he actually says how long must I be
with you while you act likethis?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Yeah, but that's what it is.
I think that's the reason whyhe brought them up.
For them to see him talking toGod and see him in Transfinger
is to show like, hey, I'm notjust a rabbi, I am, you know, I
am the son of God, which in allthree cases, I believe they had
(07:27):
already said you are the messiah, he says who do people think
that I am?
Speaker 2 (07:29):
has that happened before this?
It happened just before this,actually, I think it in, at
least in luke.
I know it happens right before.
This is.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
This is a moment where he is uh, literally the
the philippi is where uh therock of um peter peter so this
is where he already right.
So peter already proves heknows who he is, which is why he
says I'm going to build thechurch.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Cause he says who do you, who do people say that I am
Right, that's what happensbefore this.
Who do people say that I?
Speaker 1 (07:52):
am, that's exactly.
That's right before this, rightbefore, okay, so that's again
super significant to look.
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I don't believe I know it is in luke, for sure, um
.
And then in luke, right afterthat, he says after he says that
, yes, you are the messiah, hesays some of you here will not
pass to your final days untilyou have seen the kingdom of god
, something.
Yes, right, yeah.
And so now this is like theprecursor, that's, that's the
foreshadowing of in a coupledays.
You're about to go up to thismountain and see me transfigure,
(08:22):
and see that for sure.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
The kingdom of God is right there.
That's good.
That's a good point actually.
Yeah, I think it's amazing thathe's bringing up the three.
There's so many symbolism there, right, having this close guys
that know more than maybe theother 12.
There's all that, right.
Why bring the three up?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
They're the first three.
Actually, now that I thinkabout it, they're the first
three.
That was.
There was all the ones he hegot right in the beginning.
Right, it was peter, james andjohn.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Yeah and I don't so that's the people.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
So maybe it's not like the most faithful.
Maybe it's the, the three whohad known him the longest, who
would have the most reason tonot believe.
They had seen him in the, inthe flesh, more time than
anybody else.
So to watch him transfigurewould be the most impactful for
those.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
It could be.
Uh, there's not anythingwritten on it.
No, it definitely could be.
Yeah, uh, but now what do theytalk about?
And this is the part where,okay, yeah, transfiguration
happens.
Sure, you have jesus with mosesand elijah.
What in the world are theytalking about?
So we could say, okay, onerepresents law, one represents
prophecy, and then you, you haveJesus.
So why they're there?
(09:26):
Okay, but what are they saying?
And the only reference we haveto that, really, if you look at
Luke 9, 30 to 31, they mention adeparture.
That's really the only wordsthat are understood is departure
.
The word for departure used forJesus so this is jesus's
departure is the same word forexodus.
(09:48):
Okay, so again you go.
Well, that's why moses wasthere.
It's the exodus.
But no, this is really the onlywording that we have in this
entire interaction is that jesusis going to have to depart.
Yeah, so we can look at that ashis sacrifice.
He's going to have to departsacrificially.
This is the exodus of all ofthe people who deserve
(10:10):
punishment in hell into theexodus into heaven.
So there's a lot of, again,symbolic things we can look at
at that moment, but we don'treally have any idea what the
conversation was?
We have no clue, yeah Right.
So this is where I'm going toget a little crazy.
Speaker 2 (10:28):
If you want to respond before I get a little
nuts.
No, look, I I think that's.
I think that's interesting.
Like I just read the same thing.
The greek is exodus, so it it'sabout that and I think it's
interesting.
Before we even get into that, II think we're talking about
moses and elijah being up therewith them.
You know they're moses is thelaw and elijah is the prophet.
Is the prophets in the fatherof those books, those sections
of the torah right, was mosessaid to have died and been
(10:53):
pulled up to heaven.
Was he?
I think elijah's the only onewho ever resurrected.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
Well, just because we're getting into that, okay,
all right.
One of the really cool thingsthat you don't realize is, um,
right now they're on a mountainin the promised land, right?
That moses never got to go to,right?
This is the first time we seemoses in the promised land,
actually, so he died prior tobeing allowed into the promised
land, and now jesus has invitedhim into the promised land for
(11:21):
the first time, so it's reallycool to actually and if we want
to go time bending, stuff right.
Speaker 2 (11:25):
If we want to go like time bending was when he was up
on mount sinai, was he actuallyup on?
Speaker 1 (11:30):
the same mountain.
That's where am I at the future, so, and that's where my crazy
goes, yeah well, let's go, let'sgo crazy, let's go crazy, let's
go hyper speed.
Was this a vision from theirtime?
Was this a vision from theirtime or is this God, pulling all
three into a shared now,because time does not exist for
God?
So is this something whereMoses and Elijah have been
(11:51):
speaking from their own time,which Moses was around 1400 BC,
elijah was about 800 BC, andGod's glory transcends time.
So he again Moses, I mean Jesusnow is ripping off the fleshly
self he is turning into, he'stransfiguring into God,
(12:11):
transcending time and pullingthese two into the what they
consider shared now.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
They're there now.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Right.
So this was God.
He's not breaking into time,he's just taking time that we're
bound from out of the picture.
Speaker 3 (12:27):
So what I'm hearing you saying is when Moses was on
the mountain talking and Elijahwas on the mountain talking to
God and Jesus was on themountain talking to what we see
here in the Gospels.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
They were all actually talking to him.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
It was about the same time for their own time.
Yes, is what you're trying tosay?
Yes, before.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Abraham.
I am Not, I was, I am.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
So when Moses was on the mountain talking, he was
actually talking to Jesus.
Jesus was there in the mountainwith him at the same time.
Could have been yeah, yeah,yeah, could have been.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
It makes sense.
I'm just trying to clarify.
It makes total sense, right,diverse?
Speaker 3 (13:00):
I have questions on that, but let's do it.
So, uh, I do I.
That's actually a good point.
I think it's an interesting wayto look at it.
My questions would be there wasthings being said to moses at
that time.
He was getting, he was gettingthe covenant right, he was
getting all the laws down.
At that time he was doing thejob wasn't because he was
writing down I say the job,because he was writing down the
(13:22):
tablets, everything that he wasthere for 40 days, 40 nights,
right.
So he was writing down I saythe job because he was writing
down the tablets, everythingthat he was there for 40 days,
40 nights, right.
So he was there for a long timewriting down this work.
And to me, my question is well,if he's there with Jesus and
they're having this interactionI mean, in 40 days, you could
maybe break apart and go, hey,oh hey, if God was talking to
(13:43):
him, telling him things for hispeople at that time, why would
Jesus be there?
Wouldn't that interaction be alittle bit?
Speaker 1 (13:53):
You just answer your own question, you go.
He was talking and interactingat that time.
If there is no time Jesus cantalk to Moses at any point in
time in history can talk toElijah, it doesn't mean that
he's going to put them rightback in that time period and
then time exists again.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Imagine.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
How come you don't remember that Right?
Because we just had thisinteraction.
The interaction happenedoutside of time, in God's world.
Okay, this is the world that weattain to become part of, so
when we go to heaven, yeah, partof being in God's world is time
no longer exists.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Right being in.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
God's world is time no longer exists, so we're going
.
If I'm pulled out of time, I'min an area now where I can see
things and be part of thingsthat are happening past, present
, future, sure.
Speaker 3 (14:36):
But there was things that were being said, though, so
God confirmed his son sayingthis is I have it here, sorry.
So God says to them on themountain he goes uh, this is my
son whom I chosen, listen to him.
So to me, moses heard that, soI haven't.
I don't know if Moses everwrote anything prophesying for
(15:02):
Jesus to promise to come, theson to be.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Nope Again.
First, we're assuming thatmoses heard it, because this
wasn't directed towards moses.
Is directed towards the threeapostles peter, jacob, but even
if he did we're again?
We're pulling yourself out ofthe normal linear time.
Yeah, so I can hear things inthe future that haven't happened
yet.
It doesn't mean that when I goback to the past, I know the
future.
If time does not exist in God'sworld, it does exist in human
(15:28):
world.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
I don't think it necessarily.
I don't see it quite as the.
I mean, I know what you'resaying.
We've had these kind of liketime bending conversations
before where, look, if youreally want to get weird for a
second, well, that whole conceptis weird and the foundation of
it, meaning the rules behind it,is weird right, but it's
actually not unreasonable, sothink about the fact that if
(15:50):
time is broken in half and timeis broken in half and time is
broken if a second is broken inhalf and then that second is
broken in half and that's brokenin half and that broken,
eventually.
There has to be a middle.
That is nothing.
There has to be a point whenall time stops.
So time can stop right thisvery second.
You and I could have stoppedtalking right at this very
second and 10 million worldscould have happened in that in
the span of that time.
And then we come back to thismoment and never realized that a
hundred million lifetimes wentthrough Like time is a weird
(16:13):
concept right.
So let's just go back to like ifit is a timeless place.
What David's saying is likeessentially in all of their
worlds at the same time, timewould have stopped across time
and they would have merged inthat non-time space to be able
to speak about it, Whether theyknew about it after they came
back, who knows, maybe it wasjust a ripple in time.
(16:33):
Now I actually don't thinkthat's what happened.
If we have to go in that world,clearly they all stood on top
of a mountain.
We got that right.
Let's go way more physical.
They were all standing on topof a mountain, potentially even
the same mountain at separatetimes in history.
I kind of see it as, like youknow, when dr strange like does
(16:55):
his hand around.
Speaker 3 (16:55):
Then you get that like uh, the, the, the time loop
, not even time, but like theycan jump through a portal.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
Right, they have this portal where you can jump
through to go to differentplaces in space.
Well, if you can go throughspace, you can go through time.
So what's the difference?
It's like they're on top of themountain and like god opens a
portal and they can all look ateach other through the portal.
And they can all look at eachother and see each other and
they're kind of doing like thespider man, like pointing at one
another like you and you andyou and you and, but they, they
look at each other and they havea conversation and they, they,
(17:19):
they speak to one another aboutwhat's coming and what was and
what is.
Yeah, and and again.
Who knows whether we're we'reimplying a whole lot here, but
there's a clear statement here.
They spoke about his departure,which means that and and again,
the word exodos and it meanshis physical departure.
So you know any it's anyonegame as to what they talked
(17:40):
about, but they definitely hadthis conversation, which means,
if they knew it, abraham alreadyknew what was coming, elijah
already knew what was coming,and that's a really fascinating
concept.
That, like, that's also whathelped them to have the strength
and commitment to move on, evenif it was like dreamlike state,
like even if it was a dreamlikestate.
Sometimes we all have thesemoments in our life where we
have this like awakening, orthis enlightenment.
(18:01):
Enlightenment like, literally,light shines big on our lives.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Yeah, and we say that felt really true and that gives
you the faith to keep goingyeah, for me, I I look at it as
what is what it reads, right,it's, it's how we see the angels
appear.
That's how I see how abrahamand elijah appeared.
Oh interesting.
Yeah, not through a portal oranything, he just just he just
appeared right.
I won't say magically, but like, just just he just appeared
(18:26):
right.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
I won't say magically , but like they just disappeared
on the mountain I'm glad yousaid that, because that's why I
was asking about their positionafter death.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Yeah, so moses died elijah, they actually don't have
his died.
Okay, right, well, that's why.
That's why I knew, but I don'tremember the moses thing, but he
never the body, never found thebody?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
yeah, is that what it was?
Moses died.
So there is again.
This goes into debate of did uhsatan fight?
Found the body?
Speaker 1 (18:44):
Yeah, is that what it was.
Moses died.
So there is again this goesinto debate of did Satan fight
for the body of Moses?
Speaker 2 (18:49):
That's right.
I thought about that.
I knew there was somethingthere.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
There's a lot behind it, but we don't really know.
Okay, so we don't know abouthim, but we do know that Elijah
was said to have lived.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
We know that he did not make it into the promised
land, per the Bible that Elijahnever died, so is there a chance
that was Elijah at the top ofthe mountain?
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Right?
Well, that's what we read thatit is Moses and Elijah there,
right?
Or the guys like how would Lukeknow that this is Moses and
Elijah, right, right, and also-.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Well, matthew and Mark and Luke all said the same
thing.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
Right, right they all say the same thing.
What I'm trying to say is howis that person in the New
Testament at that time knowsElijah?
How he looks like he's notwearing a name tag saying I'm
Elijah.
That's a good point, Right Tothem.
That's what's being revealed tothem through God, as God also
spoke to them.
Right, he spoke to thedisciples that were there,
saying, hey, this is my son.
He's you know, he's the oneRight.
(19:41):
And these are symbolism thatshowing that he is the
fulfillment of the law and thefulfillment of the prophet.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
Look, at you, that's knowledge.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
That's who he is, he is the guy.
So they walk away from thatgoing.
Well, Jesus said when you walkaway from here, don't say
anything to anybody, Because notjust yet, but to know that I am
who I am.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Right Through this body.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
And it happens after they again just a man, I'm also
you have to take 10 steps backfrom this thing too, because
it's really no, you're, you'recompletely on it right now for
me, like I think.
I think I'm right with you Ithink, because we get caught on
the details sometimes andsometimes you have to step back
and ask yourself the biggerpicture, right?
So just before this, he hadasked who do you think I am?
And Peter said I think you arethe Messiah.
(20:26):
And he basically said cool, youare the Jewish Messiah.
Now you can be let.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah, you're the Jewish Messiah.
Speaker 2 (20:33):
Now you can be, now I can let you in to the proof of
that.
I don't want to let everybodyelse in, because I was thinking
about this actually last nightand I don't know what brought it
up, but why did he keep tellingeverybody?
I don't know what brought it up, but why did he keep telling
everybody?
I don't want you to know, Idon't want people to know, I
don't want people to know.
Why did he keep doing that?
And I think it's because ifeverybody believed he was a
Messiah, then everybody wouldhave.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Then then there's no belief in themselves, right?
They can't, I can't come freelyto you, right?
Speaker 2 (21:30):
no-transcript, he was the thing he said.
He was yeah, but it's ex postfacto, it's after the fact.
Yeah, it's after the fact andthat's that's.
The point is like you need toknow about it later and then you
need to go.
What did I do like?
Speaker 1 (21:44):
the only and again I'm getting back on the time
thing only because, okay, jesuscould have done this in any
moment.
He could have just turnedhimself into a white
transfiguration with nobodyaround, the father coming
through the heavens right, likethat's the weird part about
writing, but yeah, I mean therecould have been that moment, the
reason why I believe he went upon the mountain and had this
interaction with two people fromcompletely different eras, from
(22:06):
where?
he was yeah, yeah, um, I thinkis.
I do think it's also to showthat a little glimpse of what
time really does and that itdoesn't really exist.
I think there's a reason for it.
It's not just, hey, well, whatdoes that mean?
I think that there's importance, and and the importance of is a
couple things.
One is eternal life doesn'tstart after death, it starts now
, which is why believing is soimportant.
(22:27):
Yes, so I don't think he'sgoing.
Hey, you can wait, you havetime, you have this Believing
and the actual gaining heavenstarts now.
Yeah, I think so.
Time wise, he's showing thatthere's less relevance to time.
That's a deep one.
I think that Jesus is not boundby time, so he's meeting us
where we are.
He can heal our past, presentand guide our future.
(22:48):
I think he's showing now again,moses not having been allowed
into the promised land, and nowhe's there.
This would have hadsignificance to a Jewish person
looking at that going.
Why is Moses here when God saidyou will not enter, and now
he's entered.
I think that it shows that GodJesus, well, spiritually.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Also spiritually he entered.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
He didn't necessarily , but I think that it shows that
God can heal your past.
Yeah, that he's outside of time.
Yeah, and then also, you know,just in a nice that sounds
really nice type of way, ourprayers are echoed into eternity
without a time limit.
So when we pray and we're like,how come this isn't happening
now?
There's no time limit on ourprayers in heaven?
(23:33):
I think we look at thingsthrough time.
This is how we are, and whenyou look at God, what he's
showing us right there, he'sgoing.
I am beyond time, so you needto believe in me now, in your
time now, but I'm bringing allof these people together from
these different time periods inthe quote unquote now, the
shared now.
(23:54):
I just happen to think thatthis is yes, to start talking
about time and the lack of timeand rules around that, and we go
.
We don't know what that wouldbe like because we don't have
that ability.
God does, yeah, and I thinkwhen he's showing us this
ability of of how he's bringingall these people um throughout
time, and I don't believe thisis just.
This is their quote-unquoteghost, this is their soul, I
(24:17):
think this is actually them, uh,in this moment, with jesus, at
that very mountain, I'll tellyou this um, as I look at the
disciples right, let's.
Speaker 3 (24:24):
I'm backing out a little bit you this as I look at
the disciples right, I'mbacking out a little bit from
Jesus.
I'm looking at the disciplesnow For them to see this the
guys, james, peter, john is thefoundation of what's going to
happen after Jesus died.
He's the foundation of tocontinue forward, of what Jesus
(24:45):
they're the foundation For themto see this.
It holds so much weight tomoving forward.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
I feel like I don't know if they're the Listen.
There were a lot of theapostles that if you talk to
people in India who Thomas wentand preached to them, I don't
know if they're going to look atPeter as the foundation.
No, no, but Peter was calledthe rock.
No, no, but I think, when youlook at 12 disciples, 12
apostles that went and did thiswork afterwards, I don't think
(25:12):
you can pick out three and goyou.
Three were the reason.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Don't get me wrong, sorry.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Let's not say the foundation.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
What I'm trying to say is this when things started
happening to Jesus as far asbeing captured, imprisonment
them, being them after he died,this was their strength.
This is the strength.
This is something.
You go back and you go.
No, no, no, no, no.
This is the God that promisesus.
This is he was actually God.
He was the one that was sentfor us.
He has a promise for us.
(25:38):
He has a rule for us.
We, I'm he's going to lead usforward.
He said this and I believe himbecause I saw this through God
and how I know this Cause, justlike Moses, what I do believe
for them, right, them being John, peter and James.
They believe in Moses, theybelieve in the law.
They believe that Moses spoketo God.
He was transfigured, as hewasn't transfigured, but he was
(25:59):
white as white, right, when hetalked to God, he was white.
I'm seeing this through Jesus.
Wow, this is actually God.
I see the cloud that we talkedabout.
That we know from the storiesof Moses.
He's speaking to God.
This is something that holdsyou when you're going through
the rut, when you're goingthrough down.
You're going.
God was there before.
(26:20):
God was here.
He showed me his face.
He is present, he is alive, heis real, yeah is real.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, I, I don't disagree with that.
I also think I mean again toyour point it doesn't make them
the three most important rightthere.
There could be others, but Ialways hate to take the three
steps beyond like what we reallyknow.
But who knows, maybe thomasneeded them to come down and
like he was called doubting hewas doubting, maybe he needed,
maybe and he was super importantin india, for sure but maybe he
actually needed for james tocome down and go.
You know, dude, I saw thatthat's real, real, like that's
not, that's, that's not fake,that's real right with all three
(26:52):
of them seeing it, all three ofthem still doubted, still had
moments afterwards, so even itsounds.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I'm saying I don't know if this is necessarily
about hey, we saw this and nowwe believe because they still
don't fully.
I don't think this is a momentof.
I think it's bigger than thatexactly, and I think it's bigger
.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
And I actually think it's bigger for a reason.
You won't think I'm going tosay it's bigger.
I think it's bigger because,you know, I agree it's bigger
than that.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
I'm just trying to say that yeah this is.
This is something that, to me,is why those three and why,
whatever it is and maybe itdoesn't matter as much, but is
the significance there leadingforward?
To lead this like Like they ledthis forward.
What happens after?
Even though they doubted, weall doubt Moses, doubt Moses,
you know like, like Moses sawGod, he spoke to God, he still
(27:37):
doubted he still complained hestill.
that's why he didn't make thepromise.
That's what we're talking abouthere.
So like it's okay to say that,but to have that, to know that,
to see that I think it holdssome weight.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
This is an and thing for me, right?
This is not a this or that.
I think you're right.
I think you're right, I thinkalso the important part and I
kind of mentioned this earlierif anybody hadn't been on the
mountain, nobody would haveknown about it, so had to have
somebody on the mountain,somebody who was going to be a
part of it, like somebody whoSomebody who was going to be a
part of the writing of the Biblelater, or else nobody would
have known.
In fact, Jesus went off to gopray alone a lot.
(28:11):
Does that mean he did thisother times?
Speaker 3 (28:14):
That says Jesus but don't believe him as God.
This is another way of sayinghey, we saw it with our own eyes
.
He is the glorified God that weworship.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
And, again, part of what we do is we look at the
text and we try to explain it,like everyone does, and I look
at it and go why do they choosethese three people to be up
there to witness?
Versus one, versus all of them,versus whatever?
And I'm going.
I do believe that there is waymore on, and I and there is very
possible, like most things,there's a lot of layers.
So, yes, these three men weresupposed to see this.
Yes, they need to need to writeit down.
Yes, it's possible that Mosesand Elijah were chosen because
(28:52):
it is prophetic and it is law.
Yes, it's true that they wereall on mountains.
It could also be true that theyall appeared at the same time,
because time doesn't exist andthey're shared now.
There could be multiple reasons.
That's why I love this moment.
Yeah, there's so much symbolism, there's so much possibility to
it, that it could be as and Idon't want to say small or easy,
because, listen, jesus,transferring into you know his,
(29:13):
his self, um, is not an easything, but it could be as simple
as there were three guys wentup to the mountain, witnessed it
, and that was it, um, or itcould be a lot deeper.
I just love that this momenthad happened and that listen,
we're talking about this 2,000years later, right.
Going.
You know I don't understandwhat's going on, but and then we
(29:36):
get into things.
Like you know, time, yeah, doestime exist?
And these crazy little journeys.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Well, that's the beauty of these stories.
Again, I've said this, we'veall said this several times like
these, these shortish storieshave they're.
They're created in such a waythat they can be pushed and
pulled and tweaked and messedwith to understand deeper things
that we just never would have,we just never would have
understood otherwise.
And when you, the point ofscripture is to wrestle with it.
The point of scripture is todig into it, to find the meaning
(30:05):
behind it, to to figure it outwhere it doesn't quite make
sense, to.
I don't know what it's like forsome.
I've never stood on top of amountain and seen three people
that weren't there previously.
I've never done that.
So what does that mean?
You know what is.
What does that mean?
Speaker 3 (30:17):
well, I have a question there, because if it
was mount herman, you're talkingabout like 10 000, 10 000 feet
or something like.
I can't imagine scaling amountain in those sandals, man
In those sandals.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
That's true.
There is how, how Well listenthere are competitions every
year going up Pikes Peak, whichis 14,000 feet in Colorado every
year.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
So I mean it's Not in sandals.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
Not in sandals, no, probably not.
But yeah, it is, it's a hike.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
I mean they're walking, they're walking yeah, I
mean, I think it's.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
I think the whole thing's fascinating.
I also am curious knowing thatthe whole story really revolves
around mountains.
I wonder if that is the originof the mountaintop experience
thing that we talk about today.
It could be I also you know, thevery first I didn't know about
the whole tents being sacred.
I didn't know that's what thatwas until until you just said
(31:14):
that.
So previous to that, I thoughtthat the tents were his, were
peter's attempt to sustain themoment, and I was like this is a
beautiful moment he's dealingwith, he's existing in this
moment.
He's like, oh wow, I see jesusand elijah and moses and I'm
like overcome with joy andemotion and incredible feelings.
I want this to last, like wasit his.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Of course it could just be three tenths.
I mean the, the.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Ant version does say it's sacred, so I didn't caught
that before.
But like, it's definitely whatyou said earlier previously.
But it's also like, does hejust want, to like, live in this
moment and again, don't we allknow that moment of having this
enlightened moment and being Iwant to live in?
Speaker 3 (31:50):
what I read from.
What I read from that is petersaying um, we're just here, like
, can we help you anything?
Yeah, you're like master,should we even be here?
Um, hey, I can make someshelter, I can make some tests
for you, like you guys want somesoup.
It's cold up here I don't knowwhat like you guys are chit
chatting over there.
I don't know what you want usto do here.
That's what I mean exactly.
Yeah, no.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
I totally see that too, like he's like all
uncomfortable and awkward andhe's like you guys good, you
guys good.
Yeah, I love that guys, this isyet another interesting and
thought provoking conversation.
We hope that anyone listeninghas also had some thoughts
provoked.
It's interesting stuff.
It's really.
It's really I don't know.
It's just so fun to dig intothe details and to to ask
(32:34):
questions about the things thatwe don't understand, right, and
to ask questions about thethings we do understand, to see
if there's something deeperbehind them.
So we enjoy the opportunity tobe able to talk amongst
ourselves and to let you listenin, but we would love it if you
guys would be a part of theconversation as well.
So make sure you're leaving ussome comments, some uh, you know
, send us emails, send us a textmessage.
(32:57):
You can check in your podcastand there's actually a text
message link, uh and we willreceive it.
Um, but we love theseconversations.
This is what we do.
We don't even need to be on apodcast and we do this all the
time.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
This is just what we do for fun.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
So if you want to be part of the fun, let us know.
Please review us on the social,not on the social.
Please review us on the podcastchannels and we look forward to
talking to you again next week.
Thanks, guys, have a good one.
Have a blessed week.
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