August 20, 2025 • 31 mins
Imagine approaching the Creator of the universe with the simple, intimate word "Dad." This revolutionary concept forms the foundation of what we now call the Lord's Prayer—perhaps the most recited and least understood set of words in Christian tradition.
In this thought-provoking conversation, we unpack the radical nature of Jesus' prayer template, examining how it shattered religious conventions of its time while establishing a pattern believers still follow today. From the stunning intimacy of addressing God as "Abba" to the challenging condition of forgiveness ("forgive us as we forgive others"), we explore how these ancient words continue to transform modern hearts.
The prayer's brilliance lies in its dual nature: a precise set of words we can turn to when our own fail us, and a flexible template guiding our spontaneous conversations with God. We discuss how Jewish listeners would have recognized familiar echoes of covenant ceremonies and the Ten Commandments woven throughout, creating a prayer that was both revolutionary and deeply rooted in their spiritual heritage.
Whether you recite the Lord's Prayer daily or have never given it much thought, this conversation invites you to see these familiar words with fresh eyes. Beyond religious routine lies an invitation to authentic relationship—where prayer becomes less about perfecting our spiritual performance and more about connecting with a Father who already knows what we need before we ask.
Join us as we explore the profound simplicity and challenging depths of history's most influential prayer. Have you discovered how these ancient words can breathe new life into your own prayer journey?
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David (00:00):
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
My name is David Shapiro, hey,I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason
Holloway.
Welcome back to the BoundlessBible guys.
Glad to see you, good to seeyou.
What's going on?
I am interested to talk aboutthis topic today.
This topic is something thathas a little bit of confusion, a
little bit of conflict by it.
(00:21):
Historically, we all agree thatit happened.
Confusion, a little bit ofconflict by it.
Historically we all agree thatit happened.
But you know how you use it andhow you apply it is a little
bit different and where it comesfrom is a little bit different.
So let's jump in.
And this is the Lord's Prayer.
This is, you know, jesus.
Right now is the Sermon on theMount.
He is telling people that youshould pray a certain way.
(00:42):
He's saying you should not praywith empty prayers, you should
not pray by mumbling like thepagans, that you should pray
very specifically.
And it's called the Lord'sPrayer.
And before we get into it, javi, why don't you just recite that
for us?
Javi (00:59):
Sure, all right.
So in Matthew 6, 9 through 13,it goes like this this, then, is
how you should pray Our Fatherin heaven, hallowed be thy name,
your kingdom come.
Your will be done on earth asit is in heaven.
Give us today our daily breadand forgive us of our debts, as
(01:20):
we also forgiven our debtors,and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evilone.
Amen.
David (01:28):
Amen.
So what's really cool, beforewe even jump into it, is the
first word, father.
This is not him calling outAdonai, god, elohim Yahweh.
When he uses the word father,yahweh, um.
When he uses the word father,uh, and and it's really
interesting he uses the wordabba, and abba means father, but
(01:49):
it's very personal.
It's he's saying hey, dad, I'mabout to pray to you, so he's
calling him by name, going dad.
It's very, very intimate.
It's a very cool moment.
Um, where he is, uh, probablyin.
In aramaic is what theyestimate.
A lot of the scholars thinkthat this prayer came from, but
he's saying hey, dad, and thenhe starts to pray.
Javi (02:11):
I actually listened to the Aramaic prayer said by this.
David said go check it out.
It's the most beautiful thingever.
And I did and it is.
It's really poetic, reallyprofound and just kind of man it
just I almost got transportedthere thinking like hey, I could
hear Jesus, you know, like thisis what Jesus said.
Jason (02:31):
And this is how he said it kind of thing.
Javi (02:32):
Yeah, yeah, it was nice.
Jason (02:33):
Yeah, and I think what's cool about that Abba line is,
you know, we don't get to readit in that context, but even
before it, there's still thislittle indication of that in the
end of line eight, where itsays For your father knows what
you need before you ask him.
And then you're saying that thenext word would be pray in this
way, our father, you know Abba.
And again, it's just thistransition into this intimacy.
(02:56):
That's very clear that it's apersonal relationship.
This isn't I'm praying to someruler who has no idea who I am,
and I'm this numberless name—oryou know number nameless face in
a crowd who's asking somethingto some higher being.
No, you can pray quickly,efficiently and concisely
(03:16):
because your Father alreadyknows what you need.
That's how close he is to you,that's how much he cares for you
.
That he already knows, and Ithink that's a really—again,
it's interesting biblicallyspeaking.
It's great that Abba's therefor those who understand that,
but there's still this hint forthose who don't speak you know,
don't speak Aramaic or whateverthey would have been writing and
who can still get that.
I think that's really beautifultoo.
(03:37):
And it's revolutionary and Idon't want to get into it.
David (03:39):
I mean we have to realize that this is, this is a jewish
people.
Yeah, they prayed.
I mean, they prayed multipletimes a day.
They had very specific prayers,um, and it was always reverent.
It was always, you know,blessed be to you, lord.
But this is, you know somethingwhere he's telling them hey,
you don't have to pray, you knowin, in a way where it doesn't
(04:02):
mean anything, it's just yousaying some words out of your
mouth, right, um, but start offwith dad.
He's telling you get personal.
This is a personal prayer.
Life should be personal.
It shouldn't be.
Hey, I'm praying three times aday, I'm going in and doing my,
my, you know my work.
Quote unquote this is what I'msupposed to do, it's no, when
you pray, you should have thisrelationship with god when you
(04:25):
pray.
Javi (04:25):
So yeah, we see there, I think, a template, a template of
how to pray, not the specificwords itself.
I mean, we could use that, andI do, I'll be honest.
I, I pray every morning, everynight, this prayer.
It helps me to just kind of getfocused on God and kind of get
my scatterbrains elsewhere.
I've written these words in myheart and it brings me out of
(04:48):
tough times, it brings me topeace, hope, it gives me
everything, it just aligns mewith God, and I love that you're
saying right now, david, aboutAbba.
I think that word itself isamazing.
I mean, just how Jesus kind ofsaw the Father and just kind of
set the lane for us of how topray and set the lane for us of
(05:09):
how to approach God as ourFather and our Father that
provides for us, our Father thatknows what we need before we
even have to even ask Him.
It's already done, don't worryabout it.
And that brings me at peace,that brings me a peace.
Jason (05:23):
Yeah, I mean even the word father.
I mean, look, I know noteverybody has a great father
figure or father role, but weall know what the father figure
is supposed to be.
And to start it out by sayingour Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
It's such a depth of meaningthat is inherent in the human
being period.
(05:44):
When I say father, and then Isay it with reverence, and I say
it with respect, and I say itwith all these you know, deep
emotions, I've literallytransported myself to this place
of open, caring and alsowanting to be cared for and
knowing I will be cared forwithout having done anything yet
, you know, and so I thinkthat's really fascinating as
well.
The other thing is it's funny.
(06:05):
You know it is a model, one ofthe things that the Bible says.
I love this thing.
It just gives me so much.
But you know it does say modelor template.
Like you said, javi, it saysthat you know this is the model
or template by which praying.
But I actually was sitting herewondering I wonder how many
people have ever taken thismodel and turned it into a
prayer.
I think most people just takeit and they read it and it works
right.
It is good For you, javi, youread it and it does that when I
(06:27):
read it in church.
I don't usually read it out ofchurch, honestly, but when I
hear them read it in church ittransports me.
There's something about thisprayer that at the right time
and the right moment, it justconnects and it just goes.
Man, those weren't my words,but those were the right words,
right, yeah.
Javi (06:43):
Right, but those were the right words.
David (06:44):
Right, yeah, right javi, I actually love the fact that.
Yeah, javi, I love the factthat you pray every morning and
night this prayer.
Javi (06:54):
Maybe you were jewish I don't know what man I, I don't
know.
It's just, it's.
It's not religion, I don't, ifI miss it, I don't, I don't,
really, I'm not, I, I don't, Idon't hold to it as it right.
If I don't do this, I am doingwrong by the Father.
To me, like I said, it's just arealignment of my brain and
we're kind of focusing on Godand the reference of God.
David (07:14):
Yeah for sure.
In seminary they taught us thatand you're saying it's a
realignment.
They were teaching us that whenyou use this prayer this is
something how you use yourregular prayer life is saying,
ok, first you have to identifywho you're talking to, who is
sovereign, and that's God, andthis is father.
You know I'm talking directlyto you now.
And then what you do is yougive thanksgiving first.
(07:37):
Before you start asking forwhat you want, you give
thanksgiving.
So it is a great model for whatyou should be doing.
And for intercessory prayer,they used to say the same thing.
You know, before you pray forsomebody else, they want you to
get right praying for somebodyelse.
So so you, you, you start offby you know, hey, sovereign
(07:58):
father, you know I, I thank youfor all the things you've done
for me, and then, if your mindis on something else, you bring
that to him.
Hey, I need you to help me.
Right now I want to pray forsomebody else, but this is on my
mind.
So you ask them to remove that.
But it all goes down andfollows this pattern of you know
, of this wonderful prayer thatwe're given in the Sermon on the
(08:18):
Mount, and it has thisconnection, this beautiful
connective tissue, which we'lltalk about a little bit, with
Judaism, with Jewish prayer life.
They would have known exactlywhat he was saying and how he
was saying it.
This wouldn't be a new prayerNow, it's revolutionary but it
comes from something they wouldhave understood, which is really
cool.
Also, go for it, and what'sthat?
(08:40):
So the first one would be theTen Commandments.
Ten Commandments this is thefirst.
Four would be the tencommandments.
Uh, ten commandments, this isthe first four.
One through four uh, talksabout god.
It's god focused.
Oh, yeah, all the things youknow, thou shalt not have an
idol before me.
I mean, that's about god, right?
Um, so hallowed be thy name,your will be done.
Jason (08:57):
This is all about putting it up there, god, and then yep,
yep.
David (09:00):
And then when you start to talk about the parallels of
five through 10 of the 10commandments, these are now
human focused Um, and, and thisis give us our daily bread and
deliver us and lead us not intotemptation Uh, these are now
very human traits.
So it actually does follow the10 commandments right off the
bat.
Uh, which back then Jew, jewishpeople would have known, um,
(09:21):
the give us our daily bread.
They would have known, becausethis is manna.
Uh, this is what they've talkedabout, where god has given them
their daily bread, literally.
Um, so, yeah, before I meanbefore we even go on to other
connections you know right offthe bat these are jewish people
that would have heard thisprayer and said, hey, um, I want
(09:42):
to repeat it exactly as he saidit, which is what he's saying.
But then what you said also,javi and Jason, is a lot of us
kind of say it.
Sometimes we're in church, butwhen we're outside of church,
our own prayer life, sometimeswe don't use that.
We just go into kind of a it'shistoric prayer versus
spontaneous prayer, this onebeing historic, and which one do
(10:02):
you guys do?
Jason (10:04):
Well, I actually found it funny because in you know I
think it's 7, he says and whenyou pray, do not use meaningless
repetition, as the Gentiles do,for they think they will be
heard for their many words.
I think I'm that guy.
I talk too much and I do itwhen I pray too.
I feel bad for God and Jesussometimes because they're going
to be like are you going to?
Finish this sentence anytimesoon.
Javi (10:29):
Like I feel like there has to be that judgment in there.
But yeah, like I said, I meanyou see that in many churches
you see people just kind of likepraying for I mean I know I
think I was talking to one ofour pastors and saying, like
they came from a church theyprayed for hours, hours of
praying.
Isn't that crazy?
Jason (10:41):
Yeah look, I you know it's funny.
I think the key word is there'smeaningless repetition.
You know, I think the key wordis that you know, I think
there's a lot of people who canpray for a long time and I think
it's a powerful prayer.
I mean, some of the mostpowerful prayers I've ever heard
have been really long and yet Iwas there the whole time.
And for me to be that focusedfor that long, there was
something there.
There was something there.
(11:02):
But I joke because you know, Ithink you know, we've done a
prayer episode already.
We'd probably do another one,because prayer itself is just a
complex, you know thing, to knowhow to do it, what to do with
it and so forth.
But to answer your very shortquestion with a very long answer
, and I'll shorten it by sayingI don't ever do this prayer and
it's just because I don't thinkof it.
I just simply don't think ofdoing this prayer the way that
you do, javi.
(11:23):
But I think it's an interestingexercise to maybe take a week
and see what happens if I do it.
Javi (11:28):
I think it's one of those things of what we say about you
know, writing God's word in yourheart, and these are one of the
first few verses that I'vereally wrote in my heart.
I remembered it, I understoodit for what it says.
So when I say these words, theymean so much to me.
So I think that's where itcomes from, too, jason.
So don't beat yourself up.
I think it's just moresomething that I know in my
(11:49):
heart, and for me, this is whatGod wrote in the book, and to me
it's just repeating it back tohim.
That's what I'm taking it as.
David (11:58):
For me, my wife's family, who is Irish Catholic, repeat
this prayer, and we do it onholidays and get togethers, and
this is, we all are around thetable holding hands, and this is
the prayer we say, and I seethe like you said, jason, when
it's not meaningless.
When it has meaning, it's a verypowerful prayer and I think
(12:18):
it's laid out in such abeautiful way that you're
supposed to pray this way, but Ido believe there's also a place
for spontaneous prayer, whichis Jesus is saying pray like
this, not just say this, um, butthis is, this is the pattern at
which you can pray, which isagain glorify God, thank him,
(12:41):
and then ask what you want, um,but while you're asking what you
want, we're also going todemand things of you, um, and
this is really cool, cause thisgoes back to ancient covenant,
um.
This is when you were going todo an ancient covenant ceremony.
You would have to acknowledgethe King, you'd have to pledge
loyalty to the King.
You would have to, uh, receiveblessings from that person, okay
(13:04):
, you'd have to then seek mercyand then ask for protection, and
that's exactly the same,exactly the format order.
Yeah of this, yeah, so again.
And the jewish people wouldhave known that.
They would have seen that andsaid okay, we understand what
this is.
It's more than just a prayer.
It's, it's a repeat covenant togod all the time.
Javi (13:22):
Yeah yeah, I was going to mention early on, like on verse
six, he talks about going into aroom and closing the door.
He didn't say keep it open.
He didn't say scream out loudor anything like that.
He said pretty much go into aroom, go silent and connect with
your God, and this is how youshould pray, and I love that.
(13:44):
I think it's just a continuingreminder that we don't have to
show off our prayer skills orshow off that I'm talking to God
.
Look at me, I'm being holy.
This is something you do alonewith your God and you connect in
that way.
So I say that only to say thatmaybe people go.
This is how we should pray allthe time, or how do I connect in
some kind of way?
(14:04):
This is a prayer that you say,I think, personally, when you're
praying, when you're alone withGod, with yourself, that you're
praying this way.
This is the template, this isthe model of how to approach God
and your prayer requests.
Would you say that?
I think.
Jason (14:19):
Yeah, look, I think you brought up a really interesting
point too, which is the factthat a lot of this whole section
of Matthew is about a heartissue, like it's about.
You know, the beginning of thiswhole thing starts, or I think,
right after this he talks aboutyou have heard it said that you
know adultery is wrong.
But I say I'm saying thistotally wrong.
(14:42):
But I say that if you look atyour brother's wife with unclean
thoughts, you have alreadycommitted adultery.
And another part, I think hesays you have heard it said that
murder is wrong, but I say toyou that if you call your
brother a fool, you have alreadycommitted murder.
And so a lot of what this wholeSermon on the Mount is about
(15:06):
it's rebuking the Pharisees forbeing the loudmouths who are the
holy ones, because they're seen, right, they're showing
themselves off to be seen andthey're not doing anything
intimate.
It's very explicit, it's veryoutgoing, but their hearts
aren't in it, and part of that'swhat this is as well.
Like you said, go into yourcloset and pray, and pray
(15:29):
intimately to your Father andfirst thank Him for who he is.
And when it says your kingdomcome, your will be done, it's an
acknowledgement or anunderstanding that you, god, are
the most high and I want yourwill to be done here on earth,
because here on earth it's notperfect.
(15:50):
So I'm acknowledging that yourrealm is perfect, mine is not.
And then it goes on.
You know, give us this day ourdaily bread.
I trust you to feed me, I trustyou to be my provider.
And then, and forgive us ourdebts as we forgive our debtors.
Which I find to be a reallyinteresting note, because now
you have to ask your own hearthave I forgiven my debtors?
Have I forgiven them?
And if I have forgiven them,now I'm in the right place with
(16:13):
God?
But I'm coming to talk to Him.
If I've been outside saying,yeah, I forgave all those guys,
and then turning around and youknow, talking, smack about
behind their backs, I'm not, Ihaven't really forgiven them and
this prayer probably isn't forme.
You know, again, it's areminder Is my heart in the
right place for this prayer?
When I say and forgive us ourdebts as we have forgiven, note
that he doesn't say help me,forgive my debtors.
(16:35):
He doesn't say that.
He says you will forgive me inthe same way I forgive them,
which is a conditional statement.
That is a very conditionalstatement If I forgive them,
then you will forgive me.
And I'll even go beyond thatand say say, if you skip all the
way past the Lord's Prayer.
It says for if you do notforgive others, their trespasses
your heavenly father.
Or sorry, for if you forgiveyour others or your trespasses,
(16:56):
your heavenly father will alsoforgive you, but if you do not
forgive others, he will notforgive you.
So it's this, like it's thisagain.
Every line is just so packednot only with explicit words but
implicit meaning.
And then a check your, a checkyourself moment.
Like did I mean what I justsaid?
I just, you know we're crazy.
David (17:18):
No, it's great.
Two things.
One is you know, javi, when yougo into the praying of the dark
, um, what comes to my mind alsoabout this, which is beautiful,
is the fact that, um, this isalso a prayer that can be used
for people that don't know howto pray.
So this is now, yeah, this is aprayer that they can use
(17:42):
anytime.
Hey, you don't know how to prayto me, I'm going to teach you
how to pray, which is, I don'tknow.
I think it's really beautiful.
And then, hey, when you'reready, you take off the training
wheels and now you can prayspontaneously.
That's fair, because I amlisten, I'm a terrible prayer.
When I hear other people pray,it's amazing.
(18:03):
When I start to pray, it justfeels like it's not as strong.
And the thing is, it's notabout that.
God loves how I pray regardless, um, but it is.
Uh, I think that this prayerdoes help people in their prayer
life.
Just get used to hey, talk tome.
This is how you talk to mestarts off intimately and it
(18:23):
builds and you have, I love it.
Um, and then, as far as um I'msorry, as far as what you said,
jason I, I think that when youlook at what god asks you to do.
It's always with action.
It's never just hey, pray andthat's it.
There's action involved, andthis action is you need to
(18:45):
forgive.
You need to.
You need to do somethingradically different.
Right, like you said, he talksto the pharisees, you need to
forgive.
You need to do somethingradically different.
Like you said, he talks to thePharisees, you need to forgive
for real, in your heart, notjust say it, not just pretend,
but you need to actually do it.
Jason (18:59):
You got to be about it.
And then it also ends with and,by the way, but the forgive the
people is not about your actualphysical, monetary debtors,
it's about people who have doneyou wrong.
He's asking you to, you know,and another thing he's asked
previously to, he's asked you toturn the other cheek when you
are slapped, right.
And this is, that's a form offorgiveness, right.
(19:20):
And here's another one wherehe's saying forgive those who
have sinned against you so thatyour father can forgive you too.
Because how can you expect yourfather to forgive you if you
can't even do that simple thingto others?
But I kind of neglected thevery last statement, which is
and do not lead us intotemptation, but deliver us from
evil.
This is just a flat-out request.
(19:41):
It is a request and again, Itake this back to that very
first line where he says ourfather—sorry, right.
To the very first line where hesays our Father—sorry, right to
the very first line where hesays your kingdom come, your
will be done, theacknowledgement that up there is
great and down here is not.
And he says down here, I knowI'm a sinner, I know that I'm
going to be a sinner who is indebt to you, but I'm asking you
(20:03):
to not lead me into temptation.
Help me be strong against thesin, against the temptation, so
that I can be a better person inthis world, so I can be a
better person for you andglorify you and maybe later
we'll talk about why someversions have, for yours is the
kingdom and power and gloryforever, but we could probably
skip that for a second.
But I just love the fact thatit ends with this big request
and if you really sit and thinkabout it, do not lead us into
(20:24):
temptation, but deliver us fromevil.
What is the most humanlyuniversal truth about all of us
is that we sin and we want tostop and we can't, and we know
that we need a higher power tohelp us, and this is no matter
what's going on in your life.
This is a true statement andanybody can connect with that.
(20:46):
Absolutely.
Javi (20:48):
One thing we know for sure that he wants us to pray, so
you better get down on yourknees, close the door and pray.
Jason (20:55):
Close the door.
Javi (20:57):
Here's one controversial thing.
Well, I guess you could saythat or not.
I recently was watching like aYouTube.
It was a priest and he wascommenting on an evangelist a
very popular evangelist rightnow and the evangelist said that
, hey, you don't need to praythe Lord's Prayer because Jesus
already died for us, our sinsare already done.
So this is not, he didn't sayirrelevant, but you don't have
(21:21):
to pray it Like you don't haveto do it.
And I don't know if he'sspeaking to you.
Know, maybe certain people thatpray all the time, maybe
certain religions that that do,or certain nominations,
denominations, where the priestwas kind of disagreeing,
obviously, and he was kind oftalking about and breaking it
down.
So I wanted to.
You guys do you think it'ssomething?
I mean, jason, you said youdon't really pray this prayer.
Do you guys feel like youshould pray it at all?
(21:43):
Like you said, david, you do itfor holidays.
Do we need to?
David (21:47):
to Need is a is a engine, because I don't know if we need
to do it.
Um, I'll tell you that.
You know, one of the things Ialways talk about is who who's
citing the scripture?
And, uh, who in scripture istalking?
And this is Jesus, and a lot ofpeople had cited this.
(22:07):
This isn't just.
This isn't Matthew and Luke.
So now you have two people, twowitnesses, who are citing that.
Jesus was the person sayingthis and instantly and I'm sure
a lot of people, including thepriest, is going to go listen if
Jesus said to do this, I'mgoing to do it.
Who am I going to say?
You know, no, I'm not going topray.
Um, is it?
(22:28):
This is one of those.
Hey, is this symbolism or isthis literal?
It's the same thing.
Is this something where he'stelling me to say these exact
words?
and I think jason kind ofpointed out where he says don't
be repetitious unless it's fromyour heart.
Right, you know, don't do itjust because it's repetitive.
So if, if it's a heart thing,if this is a prayer where you
feel the most connected to Godand you're praying and feeling
(22:51):
the most connected to God, whoam I to tell you that's not
correct?
If you say this prayer everyday and you're just saying it
now and you're kind of runningthrough it and you're saying it
as quickly as you can becauseit's what you know, then you're
not really connecting with AbbaRight, yeah, now you might as
well say any other word.
Jason (23:08):
Then you're not really connecting with Abba.
Right yeah, now you might aswell say any other word.
You said something that reallyreally caught my attention a
minute ago too, which is thatthere are days when you don't
know what to pray.
You sit down and you go God, Idon't know.
I know I need something, but Idon't know what it is and I
don't.
Or you pray and your words feelmeaningless.
That happens sometimes, let'sbe honest, and maybe it's
(23:28):
because it's your words and youknow they're coming from you,
and the best way to get out ofyour own words is to get into
somebody else's words, and thisis a great way to like step out
of yourself and into the wordsof Jesus and say this isn't mine
.
I'm going to pray this thingthat you've taught me how to
pray, because I don't have theright words right now.
(23:48):
So I think, like everythingelse, there's a time and a place
for it, right?
David (23:53):
Not often do I get a gut punch.
That was a gut punch in a goodway because you're right
Sometimes, sometimes I don't,I'm not saying.
Jason (24:01):
I'm not saying you don't know how to pray, by the way
that wasn't about you, I'm justsaying you brought the comment
up.
No, but you're 100 right thereare times where I have no, but.
David (24:13):
But there are times where my prayer, um will not come out
right and I'm in my own headbecause I don't feel worthy, and
you're right.
So who's better words to usethan Jesus?
But again, I have to focus onit and go.
These are Jesus's words.
I'm going to a blank right now,um, so I'm going to use these
words as as a way to communicatewith God in a reverent way,
(24:38):
because my words are not hittingthe mark right now and I think
that it all comes down to aheart thing, and I think, man,
that really is.
I do believe that probably myprayer life is not where it
needs to be, probably because ofme, and not that I'm not doing
it, not that I'm not doing itright.
Jason (24:55):
We're imperfect sinners and we end up in places where we
can't get our hey, I don't wantto be super redundant about
this, but again, as we'retalking, something else is
coming to light.
If you're going to say thisprayer, you don't say the prayer
.
You think about the words thatyou're speaking of, the prayer.
There's a difference betweenreciting a prayer and speaking
(25:18):
out a pre-written statement andfocusing on what the intention
of each word is and what is theimagery, even internally.
What's the imagery that'scoming to me as I say you know,
hallowed be your name?
What is the image when I sayyour kingdom come, your will be
done on earth as it is in heaven?
You know it's.
What does that mean to me?
(25:38):
What are the feelings thatarise?
What are the feelings thatarise?
What are the visuals that arise?
What am I getting out of that?
What is God trying to teach meout of it?
And I can tell you this it's notalways the same for me.
I can't say every time I prayit or say it that it's different
, but it's not always the same.
Occasionally you're readingthrough it and some part of it
give us this day our daily breadand you go.
For some reason you have thisinternalization that like, yeah,
(26:00):
look at this, I'm XXX years oldand I'm still here, like I have
been fed my daily bread for allthese years and maybe another
day you go.
You know, I had a greatbreakfast this morning and fed
me my daily bread, and I didn'thave to have that no-transcript
(26:28):
to say it and pull the realmeaning out of it as many times
as that real meaning changes,sorry, yeah.
Javi (26:36):
I was going to say, going back to what were talking about
before, about it being a motto,a template.
It's a way, if you'restruggling, of how to pray for
others, right.
Like I'm not a prayer warrior,I'm not a prayer, I don't want
to, you know, I don't even knowwhat to say to my family.
I don't know what to say tosomebody else, this is the
template that you could useright.
Start off with thanking God,right, his reverence, his glory,
(27:06):
you know like just thanking forthat.
And then leading into, you know, the prayer requests right and
providing, and the providing ofthe manna, providing of the
bread right, and, just like Isaid, like the prayer request,
the one-on-one, whatever,they're kind of coming to you
for right.
And then you know asking forthe forgiveness and knowing that
we're not worthy but Jesus madeus worthy.
So that's another way, like Isaid, I think is a great
template for prayers period.
David (27:29):
One of the cool things that we see that Jesus is doing
here.
You know we keep talking aboutthe purpose of the prayer and
whether or not we should say theprayer exactly the way it is,
but I always like historicalcontext.
I want to go back to when he istalking about not praying the
way others pray um.
What you see back then is, uh,repetitive and formula.
So the pagans prayed and had along list.
(27:51):
So it was.
If they're praying to zeus, itwas oh, zeus, ruler of olympus,
cloud gatherer, thunder thrower,mighty king, um.
When you start looking atgreco-roman prayers, uh, these
were magic spells and they hadto chant the right words in the
right.
Cloud gatherer, thunder thrower, mighty King, um.
When you start looking at GrecoRoman prayers, uh, these were
magic spells and they had tochant the right words in the
right order in order to gaincontrol.
Um.
And you go on and on.
I mean, these are.
This is what even the way I wasgrowing up.
(28:11):
Growing up was in OrthodoxJewish, where you are davening,
and davening just means to shakeUm, but it is.
It is, you know, chanting.
It is chanting in a way to getthrough it very quickly, and I
think Jesus is calling all thatout and said, hey, stop.
This isn't about a lot of words, this isn't about manipulation.
This is about being sincere anda relationship, and I think
(28:36):
when we go into that, that'swhere it comes down to 100%.
Jason (28:38):
There's another word you missed.
There, too, it's not aboutbeing performative, right?
It's about it's not about beingperformative, because if you're
out there on the streetsshaking so that everybody sees
how pious you are, you knowthat's one thing.
If you're really shakingbecause you really mean it,
again it goes back to what wetalked about earlier Like your
heart has to be in the rightposition.
(29:05):
You have to be doing it with theright intention.
You have to be doing it out oflove and care, not out of, you
know, fire insurance.
You know you have to be doingit for the right reasons and so
you know.
But I think that's aninteresting point, that there
it's again.
It's repositioning prayer forthe people who had prayer
positioned in a certain way.
David (29:19):
Yep, and anybody in the crowd who has ever seen anybody
praying would have seen prayingin this way, repetitious and an
order of words and all that.
And he's saying stop, now again.
I'm not saying that in a waywhere if you say this prayer
every day, that's wrong.
It's what's in your heart andif that's how you pray and
that's how you feel connected toGod, that's why he gave it to
(29:41):
us, that's why Jesus gave it tous.
He didn't give it to us becauseit's wrong.
He goes hey, it's a simple call, it's just father, dad, and
then a simple action of of youknow Thanksgiving, and asking
for forgiveness and then askingwhat you need.
That's it.
So I think it's a great prayer.
It's not something that I thinkis repetitious if you do it and
(30:04):
it's in your heart.
But for me, I just enjoyspontaneous prayer a little bit
better and it's just what I goto as my daily prayer life.
Jason (30:12):
Yeah, Interesting.
Look.
I think this is so interestingbecause I don't know if I've
ever heard anybody really talkabout it.
So I like listening to yourdifferent points of view.
I love finding out that you doit every day, Javi.
I'm curious.
I kind of want to like testmyself and see what happens if I
do it every day.
But as always, guys, we arecurious to see.
David (30:31):
First thing in the morning.
Jason (30:32):
All right, there you go, I got my.
David (30:35):
Your beard grows longer if you do it every day, is that
how it works?
Jason (30:38):
Yeah, clearly, you win, clearly, yeah.
But look, guys, we are alsocurious to find out what you
guys think about the Lord'sPrayer.
How do you guys take it in, howdo you worship with it, how do
you use it in your daily life,or do you at all?
You know, let us know on thesocials.
We love likes, comments, shareson the social.
We also love reviews on any ofthe podcast listening platforms
(31:01):
that you listen on.
So any of those are great forus.
We appreciate that and, asalways, we appreciate you
listening and we'll be back withanother interesting
conversation next week.
Thanks a lot.
Javi (31:16):
Yes, sir.
Welcome to the Boundless Bible.
My name is David Shapiro, hey,I'm Javi Marquez and I'm Jason
Holloway.
Welcome back to the BoundlessBible guys.
Glad to see you, good to seeyou.
What's going on?
I am interested to talk aboutthis topic today.
This topic is something thathas a little bit of confusion, a
little bit of conflict by it.
(00:21):
Historically, we all agree thatit happened.
Confusion, a little bit ofconflict by it.
Historically we all agree thatit happened.
But you know how you use it andhow you apply it is a little
bit different and where it comesfrom is a little bit different.
So let's jump in.
And this is the Lord's Prayer.
This is, you know, jesus.
Right now is the Sermon on theMount.
He is telling people that youshould pray a certain way.
(00:42):
He's saying you should not praywith empty prayers, you should
not pray by mumbling like thepagans, that you should pray
very specifically.
And it's called the Lord'sPrayer.
And before we get into it, javi, why don't you just recite that
for us?
Javi (00:59):
Sure, all right.
So in Matthew 6, 9 through 13,it goes like this this, then, is
how you should pray Our Fatherin heaven, hallowed be thy name,
your kingdom come.
Your will be done on earth asit is in heaven.
Give us today our daily breadand forgive us of our debts, as
(01:20):
we also forgiven our debtors,and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evilone.
Amen.
David (01:28):
Amen.
So what's really cool, beforewe even jump into it, is the
first word, father.
This is not him calling outAdonai, god, elohim Yahweh.
When he uses the word father,yahweh, um.
When he uses the word father,uh, and and it's really
interesting he uses the wordabba, and abba means father, but
(01:49):
it's very personal.
It's he's saying hey, dad, I'mabout to pray to you, so he's
calling him by name, going dad.
It's very, very intimate.
It's a very cool moment.
Um, where he is, uh, probablyin.
In aramaic is what theyestimate.
A lot of the scholars thinkthat this prayer came from, but
he's saying hey, dad, and thenhe starts to pray.
Javi (02:11):
I actually listened to the Aramaic prayer said by this.
David said go check it out.
It's the most beautiful thingever.
And I did and it is.
It's really poetic, reallyprofound and just kind of man it
just I almost got transportedthere thinking like hey, I could
hear Jesus, you know, like thisis what Jesus said.
Jason (02:31):
And this is how he said it kind of thing.
Javi (02:32):
Yeah, yeah, it was nice.
Jason (02:33):
Yeah, and I think what's cool about that Abba line is,
you know, we don't get to readit in that context, but even
before it, there's still thislittle indication of that in the
end of line eight, where itsays For your father knows what
you need before you ask him.
And then you're saying that thenext word would be pray in this
way, our father, you know Abba.
And again, it's just thistransition into this intimacy.
(02:56):
That's very clear that it's apersonal relationship.
This isn't I'm praying to someruler who has no idea who I am,
and I'm this numberless name—oryou know number nameless face in
a crowd who's asking somethingto some higher being.
No, you can pray quickly,efficiently and concisely
(03:16):
because your Father alreadyknows what you need.
That's how close he is to you,that's how much he cares for you
.
That he already knows, and Ithink that's a really—again,
it's interesting biblicallyspeaking.
It's great that Abba's therefor those who understand that,
but there's still this hint forthose who don't speak you know,
don't speak Aramaic or whateverthey would have been writing and
who can still get that.
I think that's really beautifultoo.
(03:37):
And it's revolutionary and Idon't want to get into it.
David (03:39):
I mean we have to realize that this is, this is a jewish
people.
Yeah, they prayed.
I mean, they prayed multipletimes a day.
They had very specific prayers,um, and it was always reverent.
It was always, you know,blessed be to you, lord.
But this is, you know somethingwhere he's telling them hey,
you don't have to pray, you knowin, in a way where it doesn't
(04:02):
mean anything, it's just yousaying some words out of your
mouth, right, um, but start offwith dad.
He's telling you get personal.
This is a personal prayer.
Life should be personal.
It shouldn't be.
Hey, I'm praying three times aday, I'm going in and doing my,
my, you know my work.
Quote unquote this is what I'msupposed to do, it's no, when
you pray, you should have thisrelationship with god when you
(04:25):
pray.
Javi (04:25):
So yeah, we see there, I think, a template, a template of
how to pray, not the specificwords itself.
I mean, we could use that, andI do, I'll be honest.
I, I pray every morning, everynight, this prayer.
It helps me to just kind of getfocused on God and kind of get
my scatterbrains elsewhere.
I've written these words in myheart and it brings me out of
(04:48):
tough times, it brings me topeace, hope, it gives me
everything, it just aligns mewith God, and I love that you're
saying right now, david, aboutAbba.
I think that word itself isamazing.
I mean, just how Jesus kind ofsaw the Father and just kind of
set the lane for us of how topray and set the lane for us of
(05:09):
how to approach God as ourFather and our Father that
provides for us, our Father thatknows what we need before we
even have to even ask Him.
It's already done, don't worryabout it.
And that brings me at peace,that brings me a peace.
Jason (05:23):
Yeah, I mean even the word father.
I mean, look, I know noteverybody has a great father
figure or father role, but weall know what the father figure
is supposed to be.
And to start it out by sayingour Father, who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
It's such a depth of meaningthat is inherent in the human
being period.
(05:44):
When I say father, and then Isay it with reverence, and I say
it with respect, and I say itwith all these you know, deep
emotions, I've literallytransported myself to this place
of open, caring and alsowanting to be cared for and
knowing I will be cared forwithout having done anything yet
, you know, and so I thinkthat's really fascinating as
well.
The other thing is it's funny.
(06:05):
You know it is a model, one ofthe things that the Bible says.
I love this thing.
It just gives me so much.
But you know it does say modelor template.
Like you said, javi, it saysthat you know this is the model
or template by which praying.
But I actually was sitting herewondering I wonder how many
people have ever taken thismodel and turned it into a
prayer.
I think most people just takeit and they read it and it works
right.
It is good For you, javi, youread it and it does that when I
(06:27):
read it in church.
I don't usually read it out ofchurch, honestly, but when I
hear them read it in church ittransports me.
There's something about thisprayer that at the right time
and the right moment, it justconnects and it just goes.
Man, those weren't my words,but those were the right words,
right, yeah.
Javi (06:43):
Right, but those were the right words.
David (06:44):
Right, yeah, right javi, I actually love the fact that.
Yeah, javi, I love the factthat you pray every morning and
night this prayer.
Javi (06:54):
Maybe you were jewish I don't know what man I, I don't
know.
It's just, it's.
It's not religion, I don't, ifI miss it, I don't, I don't,
really, I'm not, I, I don't, Idon't hold to it as it right.
If I don't do this, I am doingwrong by the Father.
To me, like I said, it's just arealignment of my brain and
we're kind of focusing on Godand the reference of God.
David (07:14):
Yeah for sure.
In seminary they taught us thatand you're saying it's a
realignment.
They were teaching us that whenyou use this prayer this is
something how you use yourregular prayer life is saying,
ok, first you have to identifywho you're talking to, who is
sovereign, and that's God, andthis is father.
You know I'm talking directlyto you now.
And then what you do is yougive thanksgiving first.
(07:37):
Before you start asking forwhat you want, you give
thanksgiving.
So it is a great model for whatyou should be doing.
And for intercessory prayer,they used to say the same thing.
You know, before you pray forsomebody else, they want you to
get right praying for somebodyelse.
So so you, you, you start offby you know, hey, sovereign
(07:58):
father, you know I, I thank youfor all the things you've done
for me, and then, if your mindis on something else, you bring
that to him.
Hey, I need you to help me.
Right now I want to pray forsomebody else, but this is on my
mind.
So you ask them to remove that.
But it all goes down andfollows this pattern of you know
, of this wonderful prayer thatwe're given in the Sermon on the
(08:18):
Mount, and it has thisconnection, this beautiful
connective tissue, which we'lltalk about a little bit, with
Judaism, with Jewish prayer life.
They would have known exactlywhat he was saying and how he
was saying it.
This wouldn't be a new prayerNow, it's revolutionary but it
comes from something they wouldhave understood, which is really
cool.
Also, go for it, and what'sthat?
(08:40):
So the first one would be theTen Commandments.
Ten Commandments this is thefirst.
Four would be the tencommandments.
Uh, ten commandments, this isthe first four.
One through four uh, talksabout god.
It's god focused.
Oh, yeah, all the things youknow, thou shalt not have an
idol before me.
I mean, that's about god, right?
Um, so hallowed be thy name,your will be done.
Jason (08:57):
This is all about putting it up there, god, and then yep,
yep.
David (09:00):
And then when you start to talk about the parallels of
five through 10 of the 10commandments, these are now
human focused Um, and, and thisis give us our daily bread and
deliver us and lead us not intotemptation Uh, these are now
very human traits.
So it actually does follow the10 commandments right off the
bat.
Uh, which back then Jew, jewishpeople would have known, um,
(09:21):
the give us our daily bread.
They would have known, becausethis is manna.
Uh, this is what they've talkedabout, where god has given them
their daily bread, literally.
Um, so, yeah, before I meanbefore we even go on to other
connections you know right offthe bat these are jewish people
that would have heard thisprayer and said, hey, um, I want
(09:42):
to repeat it exactly as he saidit, which is what he's saying.
But then what you said also,javi and Jason, is a lot of us
kind of say it.
Sometimes we're in church, butwhen we're outside of church,
our own prayer life, sometimeswe don't use that.
We just go into kind of a it'shistoric prayer versus
spontaneous prayer, this onebeing historic, and which one do
(10:02):
you guys do?
Jason (10:04):
Well, I actually found it funny because in you know I
think it's 7, he says and whenyou pray, do not use meaningless
repetition, as the Gentiles do,for they think they will be
heard for their many words.
I think I'm that guy.
I talk too much and I do itwhen I pray too.
I feel bad for God and Jesussometimes because they're going
to be like are you going to?
Finish this sentence anytimesoon.
Javi (10:29):
Like I feel like there has to be that judgment in there.
But yeah, like I said, I meanyou see that in many churches
you see people just kind of likepraying for I mean I know I
think I was talking to one ofour pastors and saying, like
they came from a church theyprayed for hours, hours of
praying.
Isn't that crazy?
Jason (10:41):
Yeah look, I you know it's funny.
I think the key word is there'smeaningless repetition.
You know, I think the key wordis that you know, I think
there's a lot of people who canpray for a long time and I think
it's a powerful prayer.
I mean, some of the mostpowerful prayers I've ever heard
have been really long and yet Iwas there the whole time.
And for me to be that focusedfor that long, there was
something there.
There was something there.
(11:02):
But I joke because you know, Ithink you know, we've done a
prayer episode already.
We'd probably do another one,because prayer itself is just a
complex, you know thing, to knowhow to do it, what to do with
it and so forth.
But to answer your very shortquestion with a very long answer
, and I'll shorten it by sayingI don't ever do this prayer and
it's just because I don't thinkof it.
I just simply don't think ofdoing this prayer the way that
you do, javi.
(11:23):
But I think it's an interestingexercise to maybe take a week
and see what happens if I do it.
Javi (11:28):
I think it's one of those things of what we say about you
know, writing God's word in yourheart, and these are one of the
first few verses that I'vereally wrote in my heart.
I remembered it, I understoodit for what it says.
So when I say these words, theymean so much to me.
So I think that's where itcomes from, too, jason.
So don't beat yourself up.
I think it's just moresomething that I know in my
(11:49):
heart, and for me, this is whatGod wrote in the book, and to me
it's just repeating it back tohim.
That's what I'm taking it as.
David (11:58):
For me, my wife's family, who is Irish Catholic, repeat
this prayer, and we do it onholidays and get togethers, and
this is, we all are around thetable holding hands, and this is
the prayer we say, and I seethe like you said, jason, when
it's not meaningless.
When it has meaning, it's a verypowerful prayer and I think
(12:18):
it's laid out in such abeautiful way that you're
supposed to pray this way, but Ido believe there's also a place
for spontaneous prayer, whichis Jesus is saying pray like
this, not just say this, um, butthis is, this is the pattern at
which you can pray, which isagain glorify God, thank him,
(12:41):
and then ask what you want, um,but while you're asking what you
want, we're also going todemand things of you, um, and
this is really cool, cause thisgoes back to ancient covenant,
um.
This is when you were going todo an ancient covenant ceremony.
You would have to acknowledgethe King, you'd have to pledge
loyalty to the King.
You would have to, uh, receiveblessings from that person, okay
(13:04):
, you'd have to then seek mercyand then ask for protection, and
that's exactly the same,exactly the format order.
Yeah of this, yeah, so again.
And the jewish people wouldhave known that.
They would have seen that andsaid okay, we understand what
this is.
It's more than just a prayer.
It's, it's a repeat covenant togod all the time.
Javi (13:22):
Yeah yeah, I was going to mention early on, like on verse
six, he talks about going into aroom and closing the door.
He didn't say keep it open.
He didn't say scream out loudor anything like that.
He said pretty much go into aroom, go silent and connect with
your God, and this is how youshould pray, and I love that.
(13:44):
I think it's just a continuingreminder that we don't have to
show off our prayer skills orshow off that I'm talking to God
.
Look at me, I'm being holy.
This is something you do alonewith your God and you connect in
that way.
So I say that only to say thatmaybe people go.
This is how we should pray allthe time, or how do I connect in
some kind of way?
(14:04):
This is a prayer that you say,I think, personally, when you're
praying, when you're alone withGod, with yourself, that you're
praying this way.
This is the template, this isthe model of how to approach God
and your prayer requests.
Would you say that?
I think.
Jason (14:19):
Yeah, look, I think you brought up a really interesting
point too, which is the factthat a lot of this whole section
of Matthew is about a heartissue, like it's about.
You know, the beginning of thiswhole thing starts, or I think,
right after this he talks aboutyou have heard it said that you
know adultery is wrong.
But I say I'm saying thistotally wrong.
(14:42):
But I say that if you look atyour brother's wife with unclean
thoughts, you have alreadycommitted adultery.
And another part, I think hesays you have heard it said that
murder is wrong, but I say toyou that if you call your
brother a fool, you have alreadycommitted murder.
And so a lot of what this wholeSermon on the Mount is about
(15:06):
it's rebuking the Pharisees forbeing the loudmouths who are the
holy ones, because they're seen, right, they're showing
themselves off to be seen andthey're not doing anything
intimate.
It's very explicit, it's veryoutgoing, but their hearts
aren't in it, and part of that'swhat this is as well.
Like you said, go into yourcloset and pray, and pray
(15:29):
intimately to your Father andfirst thank Him for who he is.
And when it says your kingdomcome, your will be done, it's an
acknowledgement or anunderstanding that you, god, are
the most high and I want yourwill to be done here on earth,
because here on earth it's notperfect.
(15:50):
So I'm acknowledging that yourrealm is perfect, mine is not.
And then it goes on.
You know, give us this day ourdaily bread.
I trust you to feed me, I trustyou to be my provider.
And then, and forgive us ourdebts as we forgive our debtors.
Which I find to be a reallyinteresting note, because now
you have to ask your own hearthave I forgiven my debtors?
Have I forgiven them?
And if I have forgiven them,now I'm in the right place with
(16:13):
God?
But I'm coming to talk to Him.
If I've been outside saying,yeah, I forgave all those guys,
and then turning around and youknow, talking, smack about
behind their backs, I'm not, Ihaven't really forgiven them and
this prayer probably isn't forme.
You know, again, it's areminder Is my heart in the
right place for this prayer?
When I say and forgive us ourdebts as we have forgiven, note
that he doesn't say help me,forgive my debtors.
(16:35):
He doesn't say that.
He says you will forgive me inthe same way I forgive them,
which is a conditional statement.
That is a very conditionalstatement If I forgive them,
then you will forgive me.
And I'll even go beyond thatand say say, if you skip all the
way past the Lord's Prayer.
It says for if you do notforgive others, their trespasses
your heavenly father.
Or sorry, for if you forgiveyour others or your trespasses,
(16:56):
your heavenly father will alsoforgive you, but if you do not
forgive others, he will notforgive you.
So it's this, like it's thisagain.
Every line is just so packednot only with explicit words but
implicit meaning.
And then a check your, a checkyourself moment.
Like did I mean what I justsaid?
I just, you know we're crazy.
David (17:18):
No, it's great.
Two things.
One is you know, javi, when yougo into the praying of the dark
, um, what comes to my mind alsoabout this, which is beautiful,
is the fact that, um, this isalso a prayer that can be used
for people that don't know howto pray.
So this is now, yeah, this is aprayer that they can use
(17:42):
anytime.
Hey, you don't know how to prayto me, I'm going to teach you
how to pray, which is, I don'tknow.
I think it's really beautiful.
And then, hey, when you'reready, you take off the training
wheels and now you can prayspontaneously.
That's fair, because I amlisten, I'm a terrible prayer.
When I hear other people pray,it's amazing.
(18:03):
When I start to pray, it justfeels like it's not as strong.
And the thing is, it's notabout that.
God loves how I pray regardless, um, but it is.
Uh, I think that this prayerdoes help people in their prayer
life.
Just get used to hey, talk tome.
This is how you talk to mestarts off intimately and it
(18:23):
builds and you have, I love it.
Um, and then, as far as um I'msorry, as far as what you said,
jason I, I think that when youlook at what god asks you to do.
It's always with action.
It's never just hey, pray andthat's it.
There's action involved, andthis action is you need to
(18:45):
forgive.
You need to.
You need to do somethingradically different.
Right, like you said, he talksto the pharisees, you need to
forgive.
You need to do somethingradically different.
Like you said, he talks to thePharisees, you need to forgive
for real, in your heart, notjust say it, not just pretend,
but you need to actually do it.
Jason (18:59):
You got to be about it.
And then it also ends with and,by the way, but the forgive the
people is not about your actualphysical, monetary debtors,
it's about people who have doneyou wrong.
He's asking you to, you know,and another thing he's asked
previously to, he's asked you toturn the other cheek when you
are slapped, right.
And this is, that's a form offorgiveness, right.
(19:20):
And here's another one wherehe's saying forgive those who
have sinned against you so thatyour father can forgive you too.
Because how can you expect yourfather to forgive you if you
can't even do that simple thingto others?
But I kind of neglected thevery last statement, which is
and do not lead us intotemptation, but deliver us from
evil.
This is just a flat-out request.
(19:41):
It is a request and again, Itake this back to that very
first line where he says ourfather—sorry, right.
To the very first line where hesays our Father—sorry, right to
the very first line where hesays your kingdom come, your
will be done, theacknowledgement that up there is
great and down here is not.
And he says down here, I knowI'm a sinner, I know that I'm
going to be a sinner who is indebt to you, but I'm asking you
(20:03):
to not lead me into temptation.
Help me be strong against thesin, against the temptation, so
that I can be a better person inthis world, so I can be a
better person for you andglorify you and maybe later
we'll talk about why someversions have, for yours is the
kingdom and power and gloryforever, but we could probably
skip that for a second.
But I just love the fact thatit ends with this big request
and if you really sit and thinkabout it, do not lead us into
(20:24):
temptation, but deliver us fromevil.
What is the most humanlyuniversal truth about all of us
is that we sin and we want tostop and we can't, and we know
that we need a higher power tohelp us, and this is no matter
what's going on in your life.
This is a true statement andanybody can connect with that.
(20:46):
Absolutely.
Javi (20:48):
One thing we know for sure that he wants us to pray, so
you better get down on yourknees, close the door and pray.
Jason (20:55):
Close the door.
Javi (20:57):
Here's one controversial thing.
Well, I guess you could saythat or not.
I recently was watching like aYouTube.
It was a priest and he wascommenting on an evangelist a
very popular evangelist rightnow and the evangelist said that
, hey, you don't need to praythe Lord's Prayer because Jesus
already died for us, our sinsare already done.
So this is not, he didn't sayirrelevant, but you don't have
(21:21):
to pray it Like you don't haveto do it.
And I don't know if he'sspeaking to you.
Know, maybe certain people thatpray all the time, maybe
certain religions that that do,or certain nominations,
denominations, where the priestwas kind of disagreeing,
obviously, and he was kind oftalking about and breaking it
down.
So I wanted to.
You guys do you think it'ssomething?
I mean, jason, you said youdon't really pray this prayer.
Do you guys feel like youshould pray it at all?
(21:43):
Like you said, david, you do itfor holidays.
Do we need to?
David (21:47):
to Need is a is a engine, because I don't know if we need
to do it.
Um, I'll tell you that.
You know, one of the things Ialways talk about is who who's
citing the scripture?
And, uh, who in scripture istalking?
And this is Jesus, and a lot ofpeople had cited this.
(22:07):
This isn't just.
This isn't Matthew and Luke.
So now you have two people, twowitnesses, who are citing that.
Jesus was the person sayingthis and instantly and I'm sure
a lot of people, including thepriest, is going to go listen if
Jesus said to do this, I'mgoing to do it.
Who am I going to say?
You know, no, I'm not going topray.
Um, is it?
(22:28):
This is one of those.
Hey, is this symbolism or isthis literal?
It's the same thing.
Is this something where he'stelling me to say these exact
words?
and I think jason kind ofpointed out where he says don't
be repetitious unless it's fromyour heart.
Right, you know, don't do itjust because it's repetitive.
So if, if it's a heart thing,if this is a prayer where you
feel the most connected to Godand you're praying and feeling
(22:51):
the most connected to God, whoam I to tell you that's not
correct?
If you say this prayer everyday and you're just saying it
now and you're kind of runningthrough it and you're saying it
as quickly as you can becauseit's what you know, then you're
not really connecting with AbbaRight, yeah, now you might as
well say any other word.
Jason (23:08):
Then you're not really connecting with Abba.
Right yeah, now you might aswell say any other word.
You said something that reallyreally caught my attention a
minute ago too, which is thatthere are days when you don't
know what to pray.
You sit down and you go God, Idon't know.
I know I need something, but Idon't know what it is and I
don't.
Or you pray and your words feelmeaningless.
That happens sometimes, let'sbe honest, and maybe it's
(23:28):
because it's your words and youknow they're coming from you,
and the best way to get out ofyour own words is to get into
somebody else's words, and thisis a great way to like step out
of yourself and into the wordsof Jesus and say this isn't mine
.
I'm going to pray this thingthat you've taught me how to
pray, because I don't have theright words right now.
(23:48):
So I think, like everythingelse, there's a time and a place
for it, right?
David (23:53):
Not often do I get a gut punch.
That was a gut punch in a goodway because you're right
Sometimes, sometimes I don't,I'm not saying.
Jason (24:01):
I'm not saying you don't know how to pray, by the way
that wasn't about you, I'm justsaying you brought the comment
up.
No, but you're 100 right thereare times where I have no, but.
David (24:13):
But there are times where my prayer, um will not come out
right and I'm in my own headbecause I don't feel worthy, and
you're right.
So who's better words to usethan Jesus?
But again, I have to focus onit and go.
These are Jesus's words.
I'm going to a blank right now,um, so I'm going to use these
words as as a way to communicatewith God in a reverent way,
(24:38):
because my words are not hittingthe mark right now and I think
that it all comes down to aheart thing, and I think, man,
that really is.
I do believe that probably myprayer life is not where it
needs to be, probably because ofme, and not that I'm not doing
it, not that I'm not doing itright.
Jason (24:55):
We're imperfect sinners and we end up in places where we
can't get our hey, I don't wantto be super redundant about
this, but again, as we'retalking, something else is
coming to light.
If you're going to say thisprayer, you don't say the prayer
.
You think about the words thatyou're speaking of, the prayer.
There's a difference betweenreciting a prayer and speaking
(25:18):
out a pre-written statement andfocusing on what the intention
of each word is and what is theimagery, even internally.
What's the imagery that'scoming to me as I say you know,
hallowed be your name?
What is the image when I sayyour kingdom come, your will be
done on earth as it is in heaven?
You know it's.
What does that mean to me?
(25:38):
What are the feelings thatarise?
What are the feelings thatarise?
What are the visuals that arise?
What am I getting out of that?
What is God trying to teach meout of it?
And I can tell you this it's notalways the same for me.
I can't say every time I prayit or say it that it's different
, but it's not always the same.
Occasionally you're readingthrough it and some part of it
give us this day our daily breadand you go.
For some reason you have thisinternalization that like, yeah,
(26:00):
look at this, I'm XXX years oldand I'm still here, like I have
been fed my daily bread for allthese years and maybe another
day you go.
You know, I had a greatbreakfast this morning and fed
me my daily bread, and I didn'thave to have that no-transcript
(26:28):
to say it and pull the realmeaning out of it as many times
as that real meaning changes,sorry, yeah.
Javi (26:36):
I was going to say, going back to what were talking about
before, about it being a motto,a template.
It's a way, if you'restruggling, of how to pray for
others, right.
Like I'm not a prayer warrior,I'm not a prayer, I don't want
to, you know, I don't even knowwhat to say to my family.
I don't know what to say tosomebody else, this is the
template that you could useright.
Start off with thanking God,right, his reverence, his glory,
(27:06):
you know like just thanking forthat.
And then leading into, you know, the prayer requests right and
providing, and the providing ofthe manna, providing of the
bread right, and, just like Isaid, like the prayer request,
the one-on-one, whatever,they're kind of coming to you
for right.
And then you know asking forthe forgiveness and knowing that
we're not worthy but Jesus madeus worthy.
So that's another way, like Isaid, I think is a great
template for prayers period.
David (27:29):
One of the cool things that we see that Jesus is doing
here.
You know we keep talking aboutthe purpose of the prayer and
whether or not we should say theprayer exactly the way it is,
but I always like historicalcontext.
I want to go back to when he istalking about not praying the
way others pray um.
What you see back then is, uh,repetitive and formula.
So the pagans prayed and had along list.
(27:51):
So it was.
If they're praying to zeus, itwas oh, zeus, ruler of olympus,
cloud gatherer, thunder thrower,mighty king, um.
When you start looking atgreco-roman prayers, uh, these
were magic spells and they hadto chant the right words in the
right.
Cloud gatherer, thunder thrower, mighty King, um.
When you start looking at GrecoRoman prayers, uh, these were
magic spells and they had tochant the right words in the
right order in order to gaincontrol.
Um.
And you go on and on.
I mean, these are.
This is what even the way I wasgrowing up.
(28:11):
Growing up was in OrthodoxJewish, where you are davening,
and davening just means to shakeUm, but it is.
It is, you know, chanting.
It is chanting in a way to getthrough it very quickly, and I
think Jesus is calling all thatout and said, hey, stop.
This isn't about a lot of words, this isn't about manipulation.
This is about being sincere anda relationship, and I think
(28:36):
when we go into that, that'swhere it comes down to 100%.
Jason (28:38):
There's another word you missed.
There, too, it's not aboutbeing performative, right?
It's about it's not about beingperformative, because if you're
out there on the streetsshaking so that everybody sees
how pious you are, you knowthat's one thing.
If you're really shakingbecause you really mean it,
again it goes back to what wetalked about earlier Like your
heart has to be in the rightposition.
(29:05):
You have to be doing it with theright intention.
You have to be doing it out oflove and care, not out of, you
know, fire insurance.
You know you have to be doingit for the right reasons and so
you know.
But I think that's aninteresting point, that there
it's again.
It's repositioning prayer forthe people who had prayer
positioned in a certain way.
David (29:19):
Yep, and anybody in the crowd who has ever seen anybody
praying would have seen prayingin this way, repetitious and an
order of words and all that.
And he's saying stop, now again.
I'm not saying that in a waywhere if you say this prayer
every day, that's wrong.
It's what's in your heart andif that's how you pray and
that's how you feel connected toGod, that's why he gave it to
(29:41):
us, that's why Jesus gave it tous.
He didn't give it to us becauseit's wrong.
He goes hey, it's a simple call, it's just father, dad, and
then a simple action of of youknow Thanksgiving, and asking
for forgiveness and then askingwhat you need.
That's it.
So I think it's a great prayer.
It's not something that I thinkis repetitious if you do it and
(30:04):
it's in your heart.
But for me, I just enjoyspontaneous prayer a little bit
better and it's just what I goto as my daily prayer life.
Jason (30:12):
Yeah, Interesting.
Look.
I think this is so interestingbecause I don't know if I've
ever heard anybody really talkabout it.
So I like listening to yourdifferent points of view.
I love finding out that you doit every day, Javi.
I'm curious.
I kind of want to like testmyself and see what happens if I
do it every day.
But as always, guys, we arecurious to see.
David (30:31):
First thing in the morning.
Jason (30:32):
All right, there you go, I got my.
David (30:35):
Your beard grows longer if you do it every day, is that
how it works?
Jason (30:38):
Yeah, clearly, you win, clearly, yeah.
But look, guys, we are alsocurious to find out what you
guys think about the Lord'sPrayer.
How do you guys take it in, howdo you worship with it, how do
you use it in your daily life,or do you at all?
You know, let us know on thesocials.
We love likes, comments, shareson the social.
We also love reviews on any ofthe podcast listening platforms
(31:01):
that you listen on.
So any of those are great forus.
We appreciate that and, asalways, we appreciate you
listening and we'll be back withanother interesting
conversation next week.
Thanks a lot.
Javi (31:16):
Yes, sir.
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