September 3, 2025 • 49 mins
Abdu Murray is an author, attorney, and leading Christian apologist who has spent years engaging some of the most pressing questions about faith and culture. Once a devout Muslim, Abdu dedicated nearly a decade to investigating the historical, philosophical, and scientific claims of Christianity before coming to faith in Jesus.
Today, he serves as the President of Embrace the Truth, a ministry dedicated to sharing the Gospel through open conversations, debates, and media. Abdu has spoken around the world at universities, churches, and conferences, and is known for his thoughtful approach to skepticism, worldview issues, and the intersection of culture and Christianity.
He is the author of several influential books, including Saving Truth, Grand Central Question, Apocalypse Later, and More than a White Man’s Religion. He also hosts the podcasts All Rise, Deliberations LIVE, and CouldaShouldaWoulda, where he brings courtroom-style clarity to the big questions of life and faith.
Connect with Abdu Murray and explore more of his work here:
- Website: embracethetruth.org
- Podcast: All Rise on Spotify
- YouTube: Embrace the Truth
- Twitter/X: @AbduMurray
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What drives someone to abandon their religious heritage and embrace a completely different faith? For Abdu Murray, former Muslim and now president of Embrace the Truth, it was a relentless nine-year quest for truth that led him to Christianity.
"I had thought that Christianity insulted God's greatness through the cross, the incarnation, the Trinity," Murray reveals with striking candor. "When I realized these things don't insult God's greatness but actually demonstrate it, something profound stirred within me." This realization marked a pivotal moment in his spiritual journey, showing how what we initially resist might ultimately be what we're seeking.
Murray's story cuts through common misconceptions about religious conversion. His transformation wasn't instantaneous but developed through years of careful investigation, including moments where beauty revealed itself unexpectedly—like when watching the film "Dead Man Walking" stirred emotions he couldn't ignore. As a Muslim writing "that's beautiful" repeatedly in the margins of the Bible, Murray found himself increasingly drawn to the teachings that would eventually transform his life.
The conversation ventures into fascinating theological territory, particularly Murray's compelling explanation of the Trinity as logically possible and theologically necessary. "God is one what that exists as three whos," he explains, offering a refreshingly clear framework for understanding this often-misunderstood doctrine. His articulation shows how the Trinity actually fulfills what many Muslims seek—a truly great God who needs nothing outside Himself to express love.
Perhaps most moving is Murray's honest reflection on what his conversion cost him in terms of identity and community. In honor-shame cultures, changing your faith means becoming someone who bri
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Welcome to the Boundless.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bible.
My name is David Shapiro.
My name is David Shapiro, and.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
Jason Holloway.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hi, welcome.
Today I have the absolute honorof welcoming a man whose voice
has become a pillar in the worldof Christian apologetics, a man
who stood on stages around theworld not just defending the
Christian faith, but doing itwith grace, humility and
piercing clarity.
Abdu Murray is the president ofEmbrace the Truth, an author
and speaker, he's the author ofseveral profound books,
including Saving Truth, grandCentral Question and, most
(00:31):
recently, more Than a WhiteMan's Religion.
He's one of the rare voicestoday who speaks from both a
legal mind and deeplytransformed heart.
What I love most about Abdu ishe doesn't talk about faith.
He wrestled through it.
As a former Muslim who came toknow the truth of Jesus Christ
after a nine-year search, heknows firsthand the cost and
beauty of believing Abdu.
(00:52):
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
It's a privilege to have you here.
Oh, thank you, david and Javi.
Thank you guys so much forhaving me on.
It's just.
I've been looking forward tothis conversation.
You have had quite the journey.
You were a developed Muslim toChristian, apologist, to
attorney.
What's one moment of yourjourney that kind of pops out as
(01:14):
it just moves you deeply today?
Oh boy Gosh, even you know it'sa tough question to answer.
I'm going to answer from thestandpoint of the odyssey from
Muslim to Christian, because Ican tell you there are poignant
moments throughout the entiretyof the journey, including in
after I became a Christian, thatwere incredibly moving moments.
The moment where I suddenlyrealized that everything I was
hoping was true in my formerfaith of Islam was actually true
(01:38):
in the Christian message wasprofoundly moving.
I've often put it this way isthat you know, when you hear a
Muslim say the phrase AllahuAkbar and everyone's heard this,
and usually you hear it inmedia and usually it's
accompanied by something awful.
But the reality is most Muslimswill say this phrase not as a
chant for violence or terrorismor protest.
Rather they say it often as aprayer and a praise.
(02:00):
It literally means God isgreater.
I mean the literal phrase isGod is bigger, but the
connotation is God's qualitativegreatness.
But for the Muslim greatness,god's greatness is the single
most important virtue about Godand every other virtue of note
flows from that.
So I had thought thatChristianity insulted God's
greatness through the cross, theincarnation, the Trinity and
(02:24):
these kinds of things.
So when I came to study thesethings and I realized that the
Trinity, cross, incarnation andother things of the Christian
faith don't insult God'sgreatness, but they actually
demonstrate his greatness, it'sthe kind of thing that stirs you
and it stirs response.
It stirs an allegiance thatmight not have otherwise been
(02:47):
there by mere intellectualassent.
And this comes from the Bibleitself.
You know, it's funny when youlook at my journey of coming to
Christ.
Really the poignant moments arebookended by my reading of
Scripture.
When I first started thejourney in earnest, it came from
reading the Bible to poke holesin it, and I came across Luke,
(03:08):
chapter 3, verses 7 andfollowing, where John the
Baptist says do not think thatyou have Abraham as your father,
as if that would save them fromGod's wrath, for I tell you,
god can raise up children ofAbraham from the stones.
It suddenly occurred to me thattradition although I've been
telling Christians traditionwasn't good enough to trust your
eternal destiny.
(03:28):
To get to think it through, Isuddenly realized that I was
relying on that tradition, andso I embarked on a journey to
try to be as objective as Ipossibly could about the
arguments for and againstvarious worldviews, including
and especially Christianity andIslam.
So that's the one bookend.
The other bookend came towardsthe end, towards that
realization I just mentionedabout coming to faith, because
(03:52):
you realize that everything youhave been looking for somewhere
else is actually found now inthis gospel, and that's Romans,
chapter 5, verse 8.
Remember what I said God'sgreatness is the most important
aspect about who God is in theMuslim mind and the Muslim heart
.
And I remember thinking tomyself that if God is truly
great, then he would be thegreatest possible being who
(04:15):
would express the greatestpossible virtue, which is
obviously love, in the greatestpossible way?
And the greatest possible wayto express love is
self-sacrifice.
We can do it.
Ought not God be capable ofdoing it?
And of course, the answer isyes.
And then I read Romans, chapter5, verse 8.
For God demonstrates his love,his greatest possible love, in
(04:37):
that, while we were sinners, noteven those who love God back,
but those who hate him.
Christ died for us.
Who love God back, but thosewho hate him.
Christ died for us.
So there you have the greatestpossible being expressing the
greatest possible virtue, whichis love, in the greatest
possible way, which isself-sacrifice.
And all of that nine years, isencapsulated in one verse of the
Bible, and the profundity ofthat.
(04:57):
As I reflect on it more andmore, I think about the fact
that he is God, the word madeflesh, and he inspired the Word
of God about God, the Word madeflesh.
And it is these words that soefficiently, artistically and
(05:17):
spiritually capture nine yearsof looking into one phrase.
Nine years of looking into onephrase.
That's fairly amazing, andthat's why I consider it moving,
because the encompassing sortof I don't know what the right
word is the encompassing raptureof understanding, that is quite
staggering.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
You know, obviously, knowing me, I was actually born
an Orthodox Jew.
Know I, obviously knowing me, Iwas actually born an Orthodox
Jew, um, and my understanding oftruth was reverence of God.
Uh, but it was nestled intradition, that was under the
thumb of rabbi, and that's whereI went to for my truth.
And and what I found out wasthe same thing, you know, for me
it was Isaiah 53.
(06:00):
It was.
It wasn't even something thatwas taught to me, it was just
something when I, when I cameupon it.
You know, going to yeshiva,they don't teach Isaiah 53.
So it's not as if we're taught.
This is not true.
We're just not taught anythingat all.
So Jesus Christ never enteredthe conversation.
So, seeing a scripture, likelearning about a suffering
servant, you're going wait, waita minute.
Where was this?
I never learned that In.
(06:28):
I never learned that.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
In your former Muslim worldview.
What was your understanding oftruth and how did that shift
with the claims of Jesus,no-transcript, and you know you
keep that and that's good foryou.
I believe that everyone shouldbelieve true things and reject
(06:52):
false things.
As many as possible.
False things you should rejectand as many true things you
should accept.
So that was my understanding oftruth as a Muslim.
Now I have run into and it sortof surprises me in some senses,
because you know, we're allbound by our experiences and my
experience, my lived experienceas a Muslim, was that Muslims
were not relativists.
I have run into some Muslimrelativists, by the way, and
(07:14):
people who would say you know,we all kind of worship one God
and it's all kind of the sameand we have various expressions.
But don't worry about it, theQuran says that the closest in
faith to you are the Jews andthe Christians, because amongst
them are priests, monks andrabbis and all that stuff.
But of course there's a shiftthat happens later in the Quran,
when the Jews and theChristians didn't convert, he
(07:35):
got sort of hostile towards them.
But I had this idea that theQuran is the foundation of all
truth.
It is the unchanged, pure,protected revelation, the final
revelation from God thatcorrects all the previous
corruptions of the Talrat or theTorah, the Zabur, the Psalms of
(07:56):
David, the Injil, the Gospel ofJesus, and that's what I
believe.
That is the foundation ofbelief.
There are other things as well.
There are the Hadith, and Igrew up in a Shia Muslim home,
so an understanding of the broadcontext of all the Hadith
literature and Hadith literatureis just literature, that is,
the collected traditions aboutwhat Muhammad said and did in
(08:17):
certain circumstances, includingand especially how he
interpreted verses of the Quranor would explain them.
As a Shia, most of those werenot considered authentic in
terms of the big collections,but there were some that were
and shared with Sunni Muslims.
But so there was a secondaryauthority, which is the Hadith,
which is the sayings of Muhammad, of course, and then there's a
(08:39):
bunch of other things too, fromImam Ali and all that.
So the authority where truthcame from was from these
revelations, and then you couldpick from the Gospels and the
Torah, and even the minorprophets and the Psalms of David
and other writings, onlyinsofar as they were consistent
(09:00):
with the Quran.
Everything else was deemed tobe a corruption.
So, but all of that is taughtby levels of authority, and that
level of authority comes fromparents, it comes from community
and it comes from imams, and soyou are taught to look into
things.
But the authority structure ispretty solid, like you know.
(09:21):
The imam says it, you accept itand you move on.
You can look into things, butonly within certain rigid
guidelines.
Now a Muslim might say well,that's not true of Islam.
We're invited to inquiry andall that.
What I'm talking about is thelived experience of most Muslims
.
It is an authoritative I won'tsay authoritarian, because
(09:42):
that's a little too strong, butit's an authoritative way to
look at things.
And a mom is a learned scholar,he's an alama, which means
someone who knows, and thereforeyou take his word for it, and
you better have really greatreasons to challenge that person
.
And challenging them in anhonor and shame culture isn't
exactly what you are supposed todo.
And it's funny because, david,my guess is that that's the kind
(10:02):
of thing you grew up with too.
Yes, the traditions andauthority.
And if there's one thing thatour conversation, I think,
should illumine in the minds ofanybody watching listening, is
that these two peoples who tendto be at enmity with each other
Arabs and Jews.
Muslims and Jews have so muchin common, including and
(10:23):
especially the way that the realJesus is off limits in some
ways, and why they sort of areso resistant is often because of
cultural and social andcommunal pressure.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Talking about community, I wanted to ask you,
abdu, you know if I said itright, abdu?
Okay, I don't know much aboutMuslims and just the faith in
that way, but I could assume,from what I know, the community
aspect and walking away fromMuslim and losing that community
.
I wanted to ask you, you know,like, what did following Jesus
(11:01):
cost you, you know, and incontrast, what did you gain in
that return?
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Yeah, it's an excellent question and in the
Middle Eastern and Easternmindset we have, as I alluded to
before, an honor and shameculture, and it's important you
understand the differences herebetween an honor and shame
culture of the East and theMiddle East and an innocence,
guilt culture of the West.
An honor and shame culture isone in where the highest thing
you're to aspire to is the honorof your family and the honor of
the West, and honor and shameculture is one in where the
highest thing you're to aspireto is the honor of your family
(11:28):
and the honor of the communityand to avoid the shame of
bringing shame to them.
That's got some beautifulvirtues to it, and amongst those
virtues is that you think ofothers before you think of
yourself.
You think of the impact youractions and your thoughts and
your feelings and all thesethings will have on other people
.
So it can be a beautiful thing.
The shadow side, and everythingon this side of heaven, has a
shadow side, and the shadow sideis that you are willing to
(11:49):
believe untrue things ifbelieving that untrue thing
brings honor, or you're willingto reject true things if
avoiding them will avoid shame,which means you can believe
something totally false, but youdo it because you don't want to
dishonor anybody, and so truthsometimes takes a backseat to
honor In the innocent, skilledculture of the West.
(12:11):
We're more individualistic.
We enforce morality.
We have the same morality, wejust enforce it more
individualistically, and so it'smore of a I do it my way kind
of a thing, and I'm allowed topursue truth on an individual
basis.
So what that means, then, isthat when you change your
religion, you're bringing shame.
You're bringing shame toyourself, and so you don't do
(12:33):
something bad.
You have become someone bad.
You don't do something that youcan make up for.
You have become something thatcould almost never be fixed, so
you do lose.
One of the things that wasprofound to me was my sense of
identity.
I was like who am I going to benow?
And that's why it took me solong to become a Christian.
It wasn't because it was hardto find the answers.
It's that it was hard to acceptthe answers and what they would
(12:54):
mean for me, so my identity wasat stake, and, of course,
community as well.
I can say this, thoughfundamentally, whatever it is,
you lose and jesus calls us tothis, and the apostle paul
repeats it and peter talks aboutit as well is that your faith
will cause loss, especially ifit's going to be outward.
It's just going to it'sinevitable.
(13:15):
Um, I can quote severalpassages of the new testament,
both on jesus's lips and paul's,where jesus says you know
you're going to be delivered byfamily and those who are closest
to you and all these things,but it will be an opportunity
for your testimony Because youcan speak to those people who
are delivering you up to theauthorities, even if they are
close to you.
The Apostle Paul was tellingTimothy is do the work of an
(13:36):
evangelist, but all who seek toserve Christ will be persecuted.
He didn't say might be, he saidwill be.
Christ will be persecuted.
He didn't say might be, he saidwill be.
Now, persecution comes indifferent forms.
Of course, in the first centuryit was much more dire than
perhaps 2025.
In the United States, it can beuncomfortable to be a Christian
, but we're not here, we arehaving this conversation and
(13:57):
we're not worrying about thegovernment shadow banning us or
knocking on our doors.
But there is a cost, but it isultimately and I will say always
worth it.
I've never felt closer to myLord than when I've suffered for
his sake.
And how I put it oftentimes isthat the cost of the truth pales
(14:20):
in comparison to the cost thetruth paid for me pales in
comparison to the cost the truthpaid for me.
So how could I dare say this istoo tough when what the Lord
did for me was immeasurable interms of its agony and its angst
and its consequences?
So who I gained far outweighswhatever I've lost.
(14:41):
But I will say this this is thesecond thing I'll say I was
blessed with a great family,wonderful people and yes, it was
tough.
I mean, imagine anybodylistening to this.
Imagine if you're a Christian.
Imagine your son or yourdaughter or your brother or your
husband or your wife coming andtelling you they're a Muslim,
(15:02):
or coming and tell you they're aBuddhist or an atheist.
That's upheaval and you willexperience that kind of angst
and all these kinds of things.
So this is a natural reactionthis is not judgmental of
anybody.
However, I will say, because ofthat wonderful family, as rough
as times have gotten, the Lordhas restored.
The years of the locusts haveeaten you know and while they're
(15:23):
not Christians, and we pray forthem and we try to witness to
them in terms of our actions andour deeds and our words.
We're close again and in fact Iwould say in many ways we're
closer now, in light of some ofthe things we've gone through
recently as a family, than we'vebeen in a long time, and it's a
beautiful thing.
I wish I could say that of allthe Muslims I know who came to
(15:44):
faith.
I can't say that for all ofthem, because they've
experienced loss.
I can say that the toughness ofit all for me has been profound
, but the restoration of it andGod's kindness in a family
closeness is quite something.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
I'll tell you, when I stepped away as an Orthodox Jew
, I lost a lot of family membersthat still to this day refuse
to talk to me.
I was disowned by quite a few,and what actually gives me, what
restores me a little bit, isthe fact that if somebody like
you can't convince some of yourfamily members in Christ, then I
don't have to feel so bad aboutmy attempts.
But yeah, it's one of thosethings where, same thing, I
(16:27):
wouldn't give it up for theworld.
I miss some of my familymembers, but obviously there was
an awareness that I had when Iaccepted Christ that this is a
real possibility and not all ofthem.
Some family members really didaccept that and I have other
family members that haveactually accepted Christ as well
, but I definitely understandthat.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, and I think this is
important that we bring this up.
By the way, this is not just acuriosity about my biography or
your biography, david.
I think this is an importantpoint because you know, as an
evangelist and that's what I amEmbrace the Truth as a ministry
is all about evangelism.
We use apologetics in ourevangelism and we believe in
answering people, not questions.
But part of that answeringpeople is you have to understand
(17:12):
that evidence isn't always thereason they stay away.
The strength or the weakness ofthe evidence or the arguments
isn't always the reason thatthey're resistant.
It is the consequences of whatthose might mean, and this is
across the board.
This isn't just Jews and Arabsand Hindus and Buddhists who
have these deep religioustraditions or to worry about
this.
I can tell you.
I mean I can rattle off rightnow a quote from Thomas Nagel,
an atheist philosopher out ofNew York University, who says I
(17:34):
want atheism to be true and I'mmade uncomfortable or uneasy by
the fact that the most informedand well-intentioned people I
know are religious believers.
And he says it's not that Idon't believe in God and hope
that I'm right in my beliefs.
It's that I don't want there tobe a God.
I don't want the universe to belike that.
That's everything to do withdesire and zero to do with the
(17:55):
evidence.
So bringing that question up isso important because it's not
just about how convincing arethe arguments.
It really is about howresistant we might be and to
open someone up to thepossibility of recognizing that
maybe they're not as open asthey think they are.
Everyone likes to say they'reopen, but when the rubber meets
the road and truth is going tohave a price, suddenly our
(18:18):
allegiance to truth and I am notjudging anybody else, it took
me nine years, nine years ofsearching is not a testament
just to my thoroughness.
It's actually and I'm going tobe candid about this it's a
testimony to my cowardice,because I didn't want it to be
true and I tried my hardest tomake it not true.
Because I didn't want it to betrue and I tried my hardest to
make it not true because Ididn't want it to be the
(18:39):
consequences.
So any achievement in that nineyears is totally, totally to be
credited to the Holy Spirit andnot to me.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I have a police officer actually who said
something and he's an atheistand he came to me and said I
really hope I believe in christbefore I need to um and again
it's one of those.
Yeah, it's one of those things.
He said it to me and I'm goingthat is something I will never
forget and I've listened toapologists my entire life I've.
I have really tried to to getinto it.
I won't say my entire life, butfor the last 15 years I mean my
(19:11):
entire role has beenapologetics.
And he said one said man, thatis more profound than most of
the things I've heard and itreally came to the heart of it
is just, it is.
It's that decision of he'srefusing to make it not based on
evidence but based on he justdoesn't want it to be true.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Yet yeah, yeah.
And that's one of the barriersis, jesus will change my life in
a way that I don't want andit'll be worse.
And when I'm done, when I'vehad my fun, when I've had my
go-round, when I sort ofspiritually get myself ready to
be a Christian, I'll become one,which is a fundamental
(19:46):
misunderstanding of what thegospel is about.
It's not about you gettingcleaned up and coming to Jesus
and Him saying, okay, now you'reready to be part of the club.
It's the exact opposite.
He's saying you are're ready tobe part of the club.
It's the exact opposite of he'ssaying you are never ready to
be part of the club.
You will never be ready, but Iwill transform you and it'll be
a process.
But what a profound thing forhim to say is that I hope I've
come to believe in him before Ineed to Boy.
(20:08):
That rings right to Jesus'swords.
You know and I'm not callingyour friend a fool in any way,
shape or form it's just the kindof thing that Jesus says is
that you store up all thesethings and you store up all
these things and you fool.
You did not know that tonightyour life will be demanded from
you and, having experienced thetragedies in life that I have
gone through in the past coupleof years, I can tell you life
(20:30):
turns on a dime.
So if your friend is listening,you may need to before you know
it.
And if you're considering it,do it now for the sake of your
eternity, but do it now for thesake of your life now.
I have never been morefulfilled, never been more
fulfilled than I am now, andit's never been harder to be
somebody who's a faithful personin any way, shape or form.
(20:51):
Yeah, but it is awesome.
I mean CS Lewis.
What does he go on and he saysis that we're like children who
sit in a puddle making mud pies,not realizing that we're
offered a bountiful feast.
We think this life is good andwe're not willing to give that
up.
But just turn around.
The feast is right behind you.
Sure, go ahead and make thesefake pies out of the mud you're
(21:14):
sitting in, or turn around andenjoy the bountiful feast.
What are you waiting for?
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Yeah, I love that I wanted to ask you, abdul.
You speak so beautifully aboutJesus and just watching some of
these talks and some of thesethings that you, just the way
you share, it's profound to me.
You speak with such humilityand I know you're so packed with
knowledge and I want to ask youyou know, in your search of
searching for true truth, rightwhen did it start shifting for
(21:42):
you to be just this beautifulthing?
Right when did it shift fromlike going?
Oh, I know the answers now, andnow you put it away, because I
think for me, as I continue tolearn, I go.
God is just beautiful.
I just I am so grateful that heallowed me to just have faith
in Him through the years ofdoubting Him.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Yeah, that's a great question, I'll tell you.
Now you're causing me to reallyreflect on some stuff.
I'll say this as a Muslim, Ialways believed in the beauty of
God.
I always believed in that andthat God is beautiful in general
the all-knowing, theall-powerful, the ever-existing,
the completely independent.
He needs nothing and everythingneeds him, and all these things
(22:22):
.
I always thought that wasbeautiful.
What ratcheted it up and I'lltell you, this actually happened
before.
I really took years before Ibecame a Christian.
You begin to see the seeds ofbeauty, these little things that
get planted in your mind, andGod gives you these things even
before you're a believer.
I was sitting in a movie theaterwatching a movie called Dead
(22:44):
man Walking and the movie is anaccount of Sister Helen Prejean,
who's a nun, who is against thedeath penalty.
And there's a guy named MatthewPonsolet who went on trial for
murder, convicted of it, murderand rape and all death penalty.
And there's a guy named MatthewPonsolet who went on trial for
murder, convicted of it, murderand rape and all these things,
and he wouldn't admit it andhe's a pretty awful guy.
He's like neo-Nazi, he's allthis stuff.
Well, she doesn't want him todie by death penalty, but she
(23:06):
also thinks he's guilty of thishorrible crime and she wants him
to repent of it.
So she's got dual purposes cometo the Lord, but also I don't
want you to die.
Well, at some point he finallyadmits it.
Because of her love and the wayshe serves him and the way she
cares about him, he comes toadmit what he's done and he
confesses Christ.
(23:26):
And at the end of the movie,toward the end, it's his last
day, it's his last hours, infact, on earth, before he's
about to go under lethalinjection.
She's behind these bars, she'sin front of the bars, really
he's behind the bars and theclocks are ticking and every
tick of the clock sounds like ahammer being hit on, some huge
thing that makes a noise.
(23:47):
And he's asking her to sing andshe says I can't sing.
He says I don't care if youcan't sing, just sing something.
And there's this beautifulscene where Susan Sarandon, who
plays her, puts her face up tothe bars and you can tell she
almost feels like she's willingherself to absorb herself into
the cell.
Almost that's the kind of thingthat's happening there.
And she sings be not afraid.
(24:08):
And you know the lyrics gosomething like if you pass
through the flames and all thesethings or you experience raging
waters, the flames won't hurtyou, the flood won't get you.
This is Jesus talking, for I gobefore you always.
In other words, he stands thereand he takes it and it's like
(24:32):
Superman in front of the fireand you can stand behind him and
you'll not be harmed.
And I remember sitting therethinking about that idea of
Jesus takes it for you.
And I was a Muslim and I'msitting in that theater and a
tear escapes my eye and Iremember thinking that's
beautiful.
If only it were true.
And so that started it.
That was the seedling thatstarted.
(24:52):
So I didn't believe it was true.
I just thought if that weretrue, that would be beautiful.
And then, over the course ofsome years, as I was wrestling
with these things, I began tosee the beauty of it and really
it did in fact hit me.
In fact, it's so funny.
I was writing in the margins ofthese Bibles.
I was reading, as I was aMuslim that's beautiful, that's
beautiful, that's beautiful.
I was writing it in the margins, and so I would say that there
(25:15):
was no one moment where I wasstaggered by it.
I was repeatedly halted overthe course of the journey, even
though I was still resistant,there was a beauty that I didn't
think I could actually resist.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Same.
Sounds like another book.
Just saying that's beautiful.
Just sounds like you shouldwrite another book.
Those are how those thingshappen.
Just sounds like you shouldwrite another book.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Those are how those things happen.
You know it's funny you saythat because I was sort of
thinking that while we weretalking just now.
But someone once asked me ifI've written a testimony book.
You know, like my good friendNabil Qureshi, seeking Allah,
finding Jesus and I haven't.
I've put my testimonythroughout.
Various books I've written, butI never just sat down and wrote
(25:57):
the testimony book, for a coupleof reasons.
One of those reasons is becausea book requires quite a bit of
detail about personalinteractions and relationships
and I have people who are closeto me.
This is not just my story, it'stheir story as well.
But the other thing is I'venever.
I also fear that it'll bederivative.
You know it's like ah, otherpeople have written on this and
(26:17):
Nabil's written so powerfully onit, what would I add by adding
my story?
But I think about this idea ofbeauty, not just logic but
beauty, and I think there is agood, legitimate argument from
beauty for the gospel.
But I think about this it's notjust the historicity, it's not
just the theology, but it's thebeauty of how it all meshes
together as something that isworth writing about.
So you know, maybe you guyshave inspired me.
(26:37):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I actually.
I have a book that I wrotethat's going to be coming out in
January.
It's called Jesus Christ.
That's a Lot of Evidence.
It's an apologetics book, but Ihave one right behind it
that'll be coming out.
It's actually a testimony of meas a Christian and it's called
the Pharisee I Didn't SeeChristian and it's called the
Pharisee I Didn't See.
And it's all the mistakes Ooh,I love the title.
It's all the mistakes that I'mthinking that I was doing the
right thing as a Christian andkind of following my Judaism of
(27:01):
here are the traditions I needto follow as a Christian, and
then realizing that it's notabout this anymore, it's about a
relationship.
All right.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
well, I'm getting a copy of that as soon as it comes
out.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, the beauty got right.
There we go.
I do have a question.
I saw this in one of your talksand I thought it was beautiful
and I just wanted to open up alittle bit further on it.
Christians today, when they tryto tell the truth, their scene
is very arrogant and they try topresent people with what they
believe is a truth.
But people believe in their owngood, their own ability to be
righteous, and you made astatement about that when you
(27:32):
were at one of the campuses.
When you were at a of thecampuses I believe you were at a
college campus giving a talkabout that.
I thought it was beautiful.
I hate to make you recall it ifyou don't, but can you try to
recall a little bit for ouraudience of what you mean by
when Christians are seen asarrogant, but people believe
their own good and ability to berighteous.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yeah, so actually it wasn't at a college campus, it
was across the table fromsomebody I knew really well.
Oh, so, it actually wasn't at acollege campus, it was across
the table from somebody I knewreally well.
Oh, okay, I've shared the storyat college campuses, but I was
sitting across the table.
This was a personalconversation and there's a
person who is really well-read,really thoughtful person, who
knows quite a bit about stuff,and this person happens to be an
(28:15):
ordained secular, humanistminister, which I thought was
interesting, because the wholeidea of ordination isn't that
one person says you're qualifiedto do this, ordination comes
from a higher power, but theydon't believe in higher power.
So I thought it was curious.
So I was sitting across thetable from him and I said, hey,
so what is your biggest hangupabout Christianity?
If you could pick one right now?
I mean you probably have many,but what's one you would want to
talk about right now?
He said, oh, arrogance.
It's clearly the arroganceissue.
I'm like, oh, wow, that was.
You didn't think about it verylong, you just said it.
(28:36):
And he's like well, I thoughtabout it for a while, that's my
big one.
So what do you mean?
And he said well, christiansare arrogant because they think
they have a lock on the truth.
You guys think that you guysare special, that everyone else
is going to hell and you'regoing to heaven because of this
one thing that you happen tobelieve.
That thing is going to hell,and I find that to be the height
of arrogance.
Okay, that's a pretty toughcharge.
(28:58):
And I said well, let me ask youa question.
You're an ordained secularhumanist minister.
He said, yeah, I said so.
Would you ascribe to thesecular humanist manifesto too?
Now, secular humanists have alot of manifestos, actually, but
the manifesto, too, is one ofthe most popular.
So he did say yes, I ascribe toit.
(29:18):
Well, I have a part of itmemorized.
And I said so.
Do you agree with the followingstatement Human beings have the
ability and the responsibilityto lead ethical lives of
personal fulfillment that aspireto the greater good of all.
Do you agree with that?
And he said yeah, I agree withthat.
I said so.
You agree that you have theability not only the
responsibility, but the abilityto lead an ethical life of
(29:40):
personal fulfillment thataspires to the greater good of
every human being?
He said of course I do.
I believe that I said okay,great.
The gospel tells me that I'm asinner, that as good as I might
be and as much of God, theimagago Dei, as I might bear,
there is a depravity in me thatwill always seek my own way.
I have that, you have that, mykids have that, my wife has that
(30:01):
, everybody has that.
So I need a savior, who's notme, to save me from me.
But you believe in yourself,who's arrogant?
It seems to me that there is afundamental difference between
our belief systems.
It seems to me that there is afundamental difference between
our belief systems, and he gotit.
He got it.
The conversation turned tosomething else, but it was a
(30:22):
good start and I'll say thisWe've had many conversations
after that and the conversationswere always fruitful because,
even though I pointed out thatarrogance I think that people
have when they trust themselvesout, that arrogance I think that
people have when they trustthemselves, and it actually
upends the conversation becauseChristians of all people
although I think there areplenty of arrogant Christians of
all people based on your actualworldview, you have no right to
(30:45):
be arrogant because you need asavior.
Who's not you, and I think thatlevel of exposition on what the
worldview teaches and then howthat humbles allowed us to have
much more fruitful conversationsabout faith issues, and he was
far more open after that.
So, yeah, it challenged him andeven his own arrogance, but it
(31:08):
also showed him I think I'mwilling to admit when I'm
arrogant and when I need to bemade humble, and it advanced our
relationship quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah, I loved it.
I heard it.
I was like I don't want to ruinthe justice you gave it when
you said it, but, man, foranybody who has not seen that,
it was amazing.
So I appreciate you doing thatfavor for me and reliving that
moment.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Yeah, you bet Wow.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
To ask you Abdul, if I can and I think this is only
because I read this on your pageEmbrace the Truth.
You like to speak about theTrinity, love it.
I know we're far into thispodcast, but the Trinity is
something I feel a lot ofChristians don't know how to
wrap their head around, orpeople anyone most people don't
know how to wrap their headaround.
Or people anyone most peopledon't know how to wrap their
(31:55):
head around.
How would you explain, maybe,the Trinity to a skeptic?
Or just explain the Trinityperiod?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I mean, it's hard to really wrap your head around,
like I said yeah Well, thanksfor asking, because this is my
favorite topic to talk about,for two reasons.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
One is that it used to be the thing I would go after
the most when I was not aChristian.
I would go after it the mostbecause most Christians couldn't
even define it, let alonedefend it.
And then, when I came to seeits beauty and the way in which
it covers so many things inChristian theology, the way it
makes it illumines so manybeautiful truths in the
Christian faith Like, why don'twe talk about this more?
(32:33):
Yeah, so where Christians runaway from it, I run towards it
and I think it's a beautifultool.
So I have three levels at whichI just try to describe the
Trinity.
Level one is that it'slogically possible.
Level two is that it'sbiblically warranted, it's
actually in the Bible.
And level three is it istheologically necessary.
So one, it's possible.
Two, it's in the Bible.
(32:54):
And three, it's necessary,necessary.
So one, it's possible.
Two, it's in the Bible.
And three, it's necessary ifGod is truly to be great.
So for our purposes.
I mean I have a whole sectionin my book, saving Truth, not
Saving Truth in the Great SocialQuestion, where I give the
scriptural references about howit's in the Bible.
So I'm going to just do levelone and level three.
So level one is it's logicallypossible.
So how I make sure weunderstand it is we have to make
(33:14):
sure we define the Trinitybefore we can defend it.
And how we can define it isthat the classical Trinitarian
theology teaches that God is onein his essence, or one
substance.
One, what one being who existsin three divine persons.
Now, when I say the word person, everyone starts to think an
individual, ontological being.
(33:34):
Like you, javi and David.
You guys are separate personsand therefore separate beings
than I am.
But let's, I want to change the.
I want to use a differentversion of the word person to
mean mind or personality.
It's a different center ofconsciousness.
So the Father, the Son and theHoly Spirit are different
(33:55):
consciousnesses who aren't eachother, but they share the same
nature, the same what.
So how we define it is God isone, what that exists in the
world in three who's threecenters of consciousness.
So here's how I understand itGod has one nature and three
personhoods.
So if I were to hold up myiPhone and I were to say what is
(34:16):
this, you could say computer,you could say phone.
It's not really a phone anymore.
I mean, it makes calls, but noone makes calls on these things.
It's a computer, it's a.
Whatever device you name it,ultimately its basic nature is
it's a non-living thing.
Its whatness.
Ultimately, its basic nature isit's a non-living thing.
Its what-ness is essentially anon-living object.
You can look at me and you cansay what is that?
I have a what-ness as well.
(34:38):
I'm a human male, I'm aLebanese guy.
You can name it all.
Ultimately, I'm a living being.
So I'm an organic living being.
So I have a what.
My nature is that I'm a livingbeing.
The iPhone is a what.
It is a non-living being.
But you can't say about theiPhone who is that?
I know you have all the AIstuff in the world going on with
this, but it has no realpersonhood.
(35:00):
It's got no soul, it's got nomind, it's got no consciousness
that interacts with the outsideworld.
But I do so I have a whoness, Ihave a what, just like the
iPhone has a what.
But I also have an additionalquality, which is a who.
So I have a personhood.
I am the living being.
Who is Abdu?
So that's a different thingthan what I am.
(35:24):
Who I am and what I am aredifferent.
Why that's important is becauseit shows that the Trinity is
not a contradiction If we sayGod is one and three in the same
way, that's a contradiction.
But if we say God is one in oneway and three in a different
way, that's not a contradictionbecause they're mutually
exclusive.
So God is one.
(35:47):
What one nature, divine beingwith three distinct who's?
Father, son, holy Spirit.
So already you see, there is nocontradiction here.
So it's logically possible thatGod can exist this way.
Now, can you fully grasp it?
Well, of course not.
Why?
Because we're all unipersonalbeings.
We don't know what it's like tohave three minds.
(36:07):
I also don't know what it'slike to be eternal.
I had a beginning, but thingscan be eternal.
We know that they can be, or atleast one thing can be, and so
that ought not to bother us.
And if your inability to fullycomprehend a being disqualifies
that being from existence, wellthen you cannot possibly believe
(36:27):
in a greatest possible being,because you're conceiving him to
be like you, and that wouldseem to be utterly
self-defeating.
So it's possible that Godexists as a Trinitarian being.
Now I'm going to jump to the.
It's actually necessary for himto act that way, because if God
is the greatest possible beingand by definition God would be
the greatest possible being.
He would need nothing.
(36:48):
To be who he is, everythingwould need him.
He would lack nothing.
Be who he is, everything wouldneed him.
He would lack nothing.
He would be perfect, andperfection means that there are
no lacks.
There is nothing he needs thathe doesn't already have.
So God is personal, and apersonal God, who is ultimately
the greatest being, wouldn'tneed anything else to exist in
(37:08):
order for him to expressrelationality and a personal
aspect to himself.
But if God is one, there's oneGod and he's one in every single
way.
He is an undifferentiatedabsolute, like a monistic God.
Well, there's a problem there,because in order for him to be
relational, in order for him tolove, to be compassionate, to
(37:31):
sacrifice all these things, inorder for him to be relational,
there has to be an object ofthat relation.
Every relational aspect of liferequires a relator and the
related to it requires a subjectand an object.
So God, then, if he was one,absolutely one, with no
differentiation, would needsomething else outside of
(37:53):
himself to exist in order forhim to be who he is.
And that means he's not thegreatest possible being.
But the Trinity solves it,because the Father loves the Son
and the Son loves the Spirit,and the Spirit loves the Father
and the Son in the eternity ofthe community of the Trinity,
and he always was like that.
There was never a time when hewasn't relational, and that
(38:14):
means he needs nothing to be whohe is, and so he doesn't create
us because he's lonely.
He creates us not so that hecan have relationship, but so
that each one of us has theopportunity to have relationship
with him, and it's a selflessact.
And I can go on and on about theways in which the Trinity works
through Christian theology andthese kind of things.
But someone once asked me well,wait, wait.
(38:36):
If it's necessary that God bemulti-personal, why not 17
persons in the Trinity, why notjust two?
And my answer is Occam's razor.
Occam's razor says that youdon't multiply explanations
beyond what is necessary, and ifyou were to have a being who is
perfectly love, you'd have tohave the three kinds of love.
(38:58):
There would be Self-directedlove, which requires one person,
an others-directed love, whichrequires two persons, and then
communal love, which requiresthree.
And it's exactly what we have.
We don't have more, we don'thave less in the Trinity.
So God fulfills every aspect ofwhat it means to be love, which
is why the Bible doesn't justsay God is loving.
(39:18):
1 John 4, verses 8 and 16, yousee that God is love and the
Trinity actually makes sense ofthat.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
That's good.
I usually describe it in usingthe egg.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Don't say the egg.
I knew you were going to saythe egg.
Oh wait, Hold on.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Hold on.
No, I'm a big fan of.
I'm glad you said that, becauseI burst a lot of bubbles and I
hate when I do this, but it justis what it is.
Why are you hardest not to useanalogies?
Analogies are good only so far,and at a certain point they all
break down into some form of aheresy.
Yeah, a certain point they allbreak down into some form of a
heresy.
So, we've got to be careful withthat, which is why you've got
(39:52):
to go through the hard work ofsteps one, two and three, and
the analogies might help a bit,but remember all of them.
Even the best of them breakdown at some point because you
are analogizing the creator tothe creation and it becomes
tough, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
It's interesting that you talk about love.
I actually wrote an epistemologya little while ago where you
know, there's a lot of this freewill discussion and things like
that, and for me it was.
You know, you were born with areverence for God and I was born
with a reverence for God andwhat I believe is that on our
creation, we're all created witha reverence for God, but we
(40:27):
have the free will to love.
And because God lives outsideof time, time isn't the
relationship, it's love.
And that's why you see somebodywho's showing love the thief on
the cross he doesn't need alifetime of time to believe in
God.
He only needs that one momentto accept Jesus as his Lord and
Savior, to have the relationshipto love him.
(40:48):
And so my epistemology was justbased on exactly that.
It was love, not time, and itwas humans who have this born
natural reverence.
But we have a free will of whatwe do with that reverence.
There are some people thatchoose to walk away.
There are some people thatchoose to love.
It really is our choice at thatpoint.
But that's kind of one of theepistemologies I worked on for a
(41:09):
little while.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
It really is our choice at that point.
But that's kind of one of theepistemologies I worked on for a
little while.
I like that.
What I like about it is it'sgot a qualitative over
quantitative feature to it andit actually makes sense that
love would be that qualitativefeature because it reflects the
quality of the maker.
Who is being in love?
(41:30):
Who defines love?
And Javi, I just want to makesure it was clear.
My guess is you were beingtongue in cheek about the
analogy?
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Yes, of course.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
I want to make sure everybody knows Javi doesn't use
those.
But he was making a joke aboutit, Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
I don't want to keep you here too long.
I just kind of will finish upwith one last question, if you
don't mind, please.
When we talk especially me Italk a lot about apologetics.
Javi's a huge fan ofapologetics.
When somebody asks a questionlike, hey, you know how do you
believe in God?
Because God is evil, he allowsevil and you know, therefore,
there is no God, I used to giveevery argument under the sun.
(42:03):
That I've learned from everysingle book, and what I've
realized over time is that whatpeople are really saying is hey,
there are evil things thathappen.
Something might've happened tome.
I lost a loved one, life hasbeen rough, something is in my
life and what I've realized is,over time, that that somebody
needs.
They need love, not logic.
They need a hug at the moment,not a lecture.
(42:25):
And and what I find sometimesis that with me, my brain and my
heart.
Sometimes, you know, my brainis on and I forget about the
emotional, loving part.
And for somebody who debatespeople often, how do you keep
that both alive?
Because I've seen you indebates and both your heart and
your mind are alive at the sametime.
(42:46):
How do you do that?
I can't say it's always easy,you know how do you do that?
Speaker 3 (42:49):
I can't say it's always easy, you know, depending
on the way in which theengagement is going.
I've got to remind myselfsometimes.
There is a fundamental thing Iremind myself of over and over
again and it's based on theloved ones that I have that
don't believe in Jesus Is if Iwere talking to them, what would
(43:09):
they hear?
How would they interact?
Would they feel cared for andloved?
Because the minute I walk awayfrom an engagement where I've,
you know, I've owned one of them, you know, and I, the language
has bothered me when thus andsuch destroys us in such a
person, I have to remembersomething.
That person walks away and theyeither feel humiliated or they
feel, as Greg Koukos put it, youknow, a little bit annoyed
(43:31):
because they have a stone intheir shoe that they have to get
out.
And I'm okay, annoying someonea little bit, so they think
about the issues.
But I always try to rememberwhat will that person feel like
after we're done?
Will they feel respected andunderstand that there is a
subtle difference, but it's animportant difference, between
not all ideas deserving respect,but every human being who has
(43:54):
an idea deserves respect, and Ihave to remember they're made in
the Imago Dei that Christ diedfor these people.
And what I want them more thananything is to know who Jesus is
, not how clever of a debaterAbdu Murray is.
If they walk away thinking, wow, that guy debates well, I think
I'll have failed and I hope I'mconvicted of that if I ever
(44:16):
succumb to it.
So I have to keep that in mindis that it's Jesus who I want
them to see, and I want them tosee that because I want them to
be in heaven.
And you keep that Imago Deialways there.
And then you remember your ownjourney, remember how stubborn
you were, remember how unwillingyou were, remember how
truculent and impassionedoftentimes you were, and realize
(44:38):
this is the journey foreverybody.
I think that's what keeps itgoing is that there is always
and this goes back to the way Iwas taught, the way I was
attracted to the gospel in thefirst place, the way I was
mentored by people who weredoing ministry and apologetics,
and ultimately the way we'redoing it now is that there's
always a person behind everyquestion, and no question is
(44:58):
ever merely academic.
I can't think of one time I'vebeen asked a merely academic
question.
Everyone brings baggage tothose questions, just like I did
, and I'm so glad people treatedme like a person, not a
question, and I think that helpsme.
I have failed at this, but I'dlike to think that I've
(45:19):
succeeded more than I failed.
And where I have failed, I'veasked the Lord please show me
and please have someone comealongside me to hit me with the
nearest brick and say you know,you need to change your mind
about how you handled that.
I hope that happens and I'mglad it has happened.
There's been people who've toldme hey, you know what, not so
gracious, but I thank you forthe compliment and I hope we can
all remember that these aresinners for whom Christ died,
(45:41):
not foes to defeat.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
That's great.
Javi actually mentioned, youknow, one of your.
One of the times you opened aQ&A, you were very specific
about how you opened it up andsaying you know, have a reason
for your question before youcome up.
I know he was going to mentionhere as well and I think that's
beautiful.
It's exactly what you're sayingis you know?
It's yeah, just recently.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
I was like I think you opened up I forgot what talk
was it and you kind of juststopped the room before you
started and just like, just askyourself why.
Like, why are you in this room?
Why are you asking thesequestions?
Right, you're here for a reason.
You're asking it what's?
What's?
What's led you beforehand,before you ask that.
And I think that that led me tomaybe share that at at at
(46:22):
church, you know, with, with mygroup and my within ministry,
and just going, why are you here?
Why are you serving?
In a sense, what's deeper here?
Right, and I think we couldlose the heart of why we do what
we do, why we're here servingand worshiping and all that
stuff.
But just sometimes it justbecomes mundane, and I've been
there before, so that wasprofound, it was just simple but
(46:44):
just easy, and I think that'swhat you do, Mr Murray, that's
what you do.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
Cool, Thank you very much.
Yeah, and it's the kind ofthing I have to remind myself
often because you can, here I amsitting in my office, in my
ministry's office, with folksacross the hall who do wonderful
work for our ministry, and wejust got back from doing a
dialogue with a Hindu who was aformer Catholic, became a Hindu,
and we had this dialogue backand forth and there was a guy in
the audience who was Hindu andhe said you really made me think
(47:10):
about this one aspect so much.
And I remember thinking tomyself I hope I never get tired
of hearing that, that I neverget tired of hearing how Christ
touches someone from a differentworldview, and I'm just
perpetually in amazement.
One of our values as a ministryis to be expectant.
God does crazy things despiteyour failures and sometimes to
(47:33):
augment your successes, and Ijust never want to get used to
it and the good news is Ihaven't been.
I'm just in perpetual awe ofwhat he's done and what ministry
does.
And if anybody's listening andthey want to get involved in
ministry in some way, whetherit's bivocational or whatever it
might be I hope that you do sowith the goal of making other
(47:58):
people your priority.
One of our mantras that'sprobably a bad way to put it
actually, now that I think aboutit one of our slogans and our
mottos at our ministry iskingdom, not castles, and people
, not platforms.
And if you put people aboveyour platform, God will give you
the right platform, but if yougo for platform, you will run
(48:19):
right over people.
And any mistakes I've made Ihope I've learned from.
But what a pleasure and anhonor this is.
You get to have a front rowseat to watch God work.
You're not doing a whole lot,you are just a conduit through
which the Lord works and we needto remember that over and over
again.
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Love it, abdu.
I'm assuming Embrace the Truthis the best way for people to
learn about you.
Get your.
Any books you have.
I'm sure are listed there aswell, so if you want to learn
more about him.
Please go to Embrace the Truth.
Ahav, you want to wrap us up?
Speaker 1 (48:49):
Yeah, yeah.
I just want to thank you, abdu,just for just amazing pleasure
to have you here on this theBalanced Bible podcast.
Thank you for sharing the depthof your background, but also
just a profound love and passionfor our faith, for Christianity
, for Jesus, for God, and Ithank you for that, sir.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
It's a pleasure, guys .
Keep it up Well for God, and Ithank you for that, sir.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
It's a pleasure.
Guys, keep it up Well, thankyou, please, guys out there,
check out Abdu.
We have links in thedescription below.
Please check it out.
If you liked this episode,please like it, drop a comment
and, of course, follow usanywhere you are consuming this
podcast.
Have a blessed day.
Welcome to the Boundless.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bible.
My name is David Shapiro.
My name is David Shapiro, and.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
Jason Holloway.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Hi, welcome.
Today I have the absolute honorof welcoming a man whose voice
has become a pillar in the worldof Christian apologetics, a man
who stood on stages around theworld not just defending the
Christian faith, but doing itwith grace, humility and
piercing clarity.
Abdu Murray is the president ofEmbrace the Truth, an author
and speaker, he's the author ofseveral profound books,
including Saving Truth, grandCentral Question and, most
(00:31):
recently, more Than a WhiteMan's Religion.
He's one of the rare voicestoday who speaks from both a
legal mind and deeplytransformed heart.
What I love most about Abdu ishe doesn't talk about faith.
He wrestled through it.
As a former Muslim who came toknow the truth of Jesus Christ
after a nine-year search, heknows firsthand the cost and
beauty of believing Abdu.
(00:52):
Thank you so much for joiningus today.
Speaker 3 (00:53):
It's a privilege to have you here.
Oh, thank you, david and Javi.
Thank you guys so much forhaving me on.
It's just.
I've been looking forward tothis conversation.
You have had quite the journey.
You were a developed Muslim toChristian, apologist, to
attorney.
What's one moment of yourjourney that kind of pops out as
(01:14):
it just moves you deeply today?
Oh boy Gosh, even you know it'sa tough question to answer.
I'm going to answer from thestandpoint of the odyssey from
Muslim to Christian, because Ican tell you there are poignant
moments throughout the entiretyof the journey, including in
after I became a Christian, thatwere incredibly moving moments.
The moment where I suddenlyrealized that everything I was
hoping was true in my formerfaith of Islam was actually true
(01:38):
in the Christian message wasprofoundly moving.
I've often put it this way isthat you know, when you hear a
Muslim say the phrase AllahuAkbar and everyone's heard this,
and usually you hear it inmedia and usually it's
accompanied by something awful.
But the reality is most Muslimswill say this phrase not as a
chant for violence or terrorismor protest.
Rather they say it often as aprayer and a praise.
(02:00):
It literally means God isgreater.
I mean the literal phrase isGod is bigger, but the
connotation is God's qualitativegreatness.
But for the Muslim greatness,god's greatness is the single
most important virtue about Godand every other virtue of note
flows from that.
So I had thought thatChristianity insulted God's
greatness through the cross, theincarnation, the Trinity and
(02:24):
these kinds of things.
So when I came to study thesethings and I realized that the
Trinity, cross, incarnation andother things of the Christian
faith don't insult God'sgreatness, but they actually
demonstrate his greatness, it'sthe kind of thing that stirs you
and it stirs response.
It stirs an allegiance thatmight not have otherwise been
(02:47):
there by mere intellectualassent.
And this comes from the Bibleitself.
You know, it's funny when youlook at my journey of coming to
Christ.
Really the poignant moments arebookended by my reading of
Scripture.
When I first started thejourney in earnest, it came from
reading the Bible to poke holesin it, and I came across Luke,
(03:08):
chapter 3, verses 7 andfollowing, where John the
Baptist says do not think thatyou have Abraham as your father,
as if that would save them fromGod's wrath, for I tell you,
god can raise up children ofAbraham from the stones.
It suddenly occurred to me thattradition although I've been
telling Christians traditionwasn't good enough to trust your
eternal destiny.
(03:28):
To get to think it through, Isuddenly realized that I was
relying on that tradition, andso I embarked on a journey to
try to be as objective as Ipossibly could about the
arguments for and againstvarious worldviews, including
and especially Christianity andIslam.
So that's the one bookend.
The other bookend came towardsthe end, towards that
realization I just mentionedabout coming to faith, because
(03:52):
you realize that everything youhave been looking for somewhere
else is actually found now inthis gospel, and that's Romans,
chapter 5, verse 8.
Remember what I said God'sgreatness is the most important
aspect about who God is in theMuslim mind and the Muslim heart
.
And I remember thinking tomyself that if God is truly
great, then he would be thegreatest possible being who
(04:15):
would express the greatestpossible virtue, which is
obviously love, in the greatestpossible way?
And the greatest possible wayto express love is
self-sacrifice.
We can do it.
Ought not God be capable ofdoing it?
And of course, the answer isyes.
And then I read Romans, chapter5, verse 8.
For God demonstrates his love,his greatest possible love, in
(04:37):
that, while we were sinners, noteven those who love God back,
but those who hate him.
Christ died for us.
Who love God back, but thosewho hate him.
Christ died for us.
So there you have the greatestpossible being expressing the
greatest possible virtue, whichis love, in the greatest
possible way, which isself-sacrifice.
And all of that nine years, isencapsulated in one verse of the
Bible, and the profundity ofthat.
(04:57):
As I reflect on it more andmore, I think about the fact
that he is God, the word madeflesh, and he inspired the Word
of God about God, the Word madeflesh.
And it is these words that soefficiently, artistically and
(05:17):
spiritually capture nine yearsof looking into one phrase.
Nine years of looking into onephrase.
That's fairly amazing, andthat's why I consider it moving,
because the encompassing sortof I don't know what the right
word is the encompassing raptureof understanding, that is quite
staggering.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
You know, obviously, knowing me, I was actually born
an Orthodox Jew.
Know I, obviously knowing me, Iwas actually born an Orthodox
Jew, um, and my understanding oftruth was reverence of God.
Uh, but it was nestled intradition, that was under the
thumb of rabbi, and that's whereI went to for my truth.
And and what I found out wasthe same thing, you know, for me
it was Isaiah 53.
(06:00):
It was.
It wasn't even something thatwas taught to me, it was just
something when I, when I cameupon it.
You know, going to yeshiva,they don't teach Isaiah 53.
So it's not as if we're taught.
This is not true.
We're just not taught anythingat all.
So Jesus Christ never enteredthe conversation.
So, seeing a scripture, likelearning about a suffering
servant, you're going wait, waita minute.
Where was this?
I never learned that In.
(06:28):
I never learned that.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
In your former Muslim worldview.
What was your understanding oftruth and how did that shift
with the claims of Jesus,no-transcript, and you know you
keep that and that's good foryou.
I believe that everyone shouldbelieve true things and reject
(06:52):
false things.
As many as possible.
False things you should rejectand as many true things you
should accept.
So that was my understanding oftruth as a Muslim.
Now I have run into and it sortof surprises me in some senses,
because you know, we're allbound by our experiences and my
experience, my lived experienceas a Muslim, was that Muslims
were not relativists.
I have run into some Muslimrelativists, by the way, and
(07:14):
people who would say you know,we all kind of worship one God
and it's all kind of the sameand we have various expressions.
But don't worry about it, theQuran says that the closest in
faith to you are the Jews andthe Christians, because amongst
them are priests, monks andrabbis and all that stuff.
But of course there's a shiftthat happens later in the Quran,
when the Jews and theChristians didn't convert, he
(07:35):
got sort of hostile towards them.
But I had this idea that theQuran is the foundation of all
truth.
It is the unchanged, pure,protected revelation, the final
revelation from God thatcorrects all the previous
corruptions of the Talrat or theTorah, the Zabur, the Psalms of
(07:56):
David, the Injil, the Gospel ofJesus, and that's what I
believe.
That is the foundation ofbelief.
There are other things as well.
There are the Hadith, and Igrew up in a Shia Muslim home,
so an understanding of the broadcontext of all the Hadith
literature and Hadith literatureis just literature, that is,
the collected traditions aboutwhat Muhammad said and did in
(08:17):
certain circumstances, includingand especially how he
interpreted verses of the Quranor would explain them.
As a Shia, most of those werenot considered authentic in
terms of the big collections,but there were some that were
and shared with Sunni Muslims.
But so there was a secondaryauthority, which is the Hadith,
which is the sayings of Muhammad, of course, and then there's a
(08:39):
bunch of other things too, fromImam Ali and all that.
So the authority where truthcame from was from these
revelations, and then you couldpick from the Gospels and the
Torah, and even the minorprophets and the Psalms of David
and other writings, onlyinsofar as they were consistent
(09:00):
with the Quran.
Everything else was deemed tobe a corruption.
So, but all of that is taughtby levels of authority, and that
level of authority comes fromparents, it comes from community
and it comes from imams, and soyou are taught to look into
things.
But the authority structure ispretty solid, like you know.
(09:21):
The imam says it, you accept itand you move on.
You can look into things, butonly within certain rigid
guidelines.
Now a Muslim might say well,that's not true of Islam.
We're invited to inquiry andall that.
What I'm talking about is thelived experience of most Muslims
.
It is an authoritative I won'tsay authoritarian, because
(09:42):
that's a little too strong, butit's an authoritative way to
look at things.
And a mom is a learned scholar,he's an alama, which means
someone who knows, and thereforeyou take his word for it, and
you better have really greatreasons to challenge that person
.
And challenging them in anhonor and shame culture isn't
exactly what you are supposed todo.
And it's funny because, david,my guess is that that's the kind
(10:02):
of thing you grew up with too.
Yes, the traditions andauthority.
And if there's one thing thatour conversation, I think,
should illumine in the minds ofanybody watching listening, is
that these two peoples who tendto be at enmity with each other
Arabs and Jews.
Muslims and Jews have so muchin common, including and
(10:23):
especially the way that the realJesus is off limits in some
ways, and why they sort of areso resistant is often because of
cultural and social andcommunal pressure.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
Talking about community, I wanted to ask you,
abdu, you know if I said itright, abdu?
Okay, I don't know much aboutMuslims and just the faith in
that way, but I could assume,from what I know, the community
aspect and walking away fromMuslim and losing that community
.
I wanted to ask you, you know,like, what did following Jesus
(11:01):
cost you, you know, and incontrast, what did you gain in
that return?
Speaker 3 (11:06):
Yeah, it's an excellent question and in the
Middle Eastern and Easternmindset we have, as I alluded to
before, an honor and shameculture, and it's important you
understand the differences herebetween an honor and shame
culture of the East and theMiddle East and an innocence,
guilt culture of the West.
An honor and shame culture isone in where the highest thing
you're to aspire to is the honorof your family and the honor of
the West, and honor and shameculture is one in where the
highest thing you're to aspireto is the honor of your family
(11:28):
and the honor of the communityand to avoid the shame of
bringing shame to them.
That's got some beautifulvirtues to it, and amongst those
virtues is that you think ofothers before you think of
yourself.
You think of the impact youractions and your thoughts and
your feelings and all thesethings will have on other people
.
So it can be a beautiful thing.
The shadow side, and everythingon this side of heaven, has a
shadow side, and the shadow sideis that you are willing to
(11:49):
believe untrue things ifbelieving that untrue thing
brings honor, or you're willingto reject true things if
avoiding them will avoid shame,which means you can believe
something totally false, but youdo it because you don't want to
dishonor anybody, and so truthsometimes takes a backseat to
honor In the innocent, skilledculture of the West.
(12:11):
We're more individualistic.
We enforce morality.
We have the same morality, wejust enforce it more
individualistically, and so it'smore of a I do it my way kind
of a thing, and I'm allowed topursue truth on an individual
basis.
So what that means, then, isthat when you change your
religion, you're bringing shame.
You're bringing shame toyourself, and so you don't do
(12:33):
something bad.
You have become someone bad.
You don't do something that youcan make up for.
You have become something thatcould almost never be fixed, so
you do lose.
One of the things that wasprofound to me was my sense of
identity.
I was like who am I going to benow?
And that's why it took me solong to become a Christian.
It wasn't because it was hardto find the answers.
It's that it was hard to acceptthe answers and what they would
(12:54):
mean for me, so my identity wasat stake, and, of course,
community as well.
I can say this, thoughfundamentally, whatever it is,
you lose and jesus calls us tothis, and the apostle paul
repeats it and peter talks aboutit as well is that your faith
will cause loss, especially ifit's going to be outward.
It's just going to it'sinevitable.
(13:15):
Um, I can quote severalpassages of the new testament,
both on jesus's lips and paul's,where jesus says you know
you're going to be delivered byfamily and those who are closest
to you and all these things,but it will be an opportunity
for your testimony Because youcan speak to those people who
are delivering you up to theauthorities, even if they are
close to you.
The Apostle Paul was tellingTimothy is do the work of an
(13:36):
evangelist, but all who seek toserve Christ will be persecuted.
He didn't say might be, he saidwill be.
Christ will be persecuted.
He didn't say might be, he saidwill be.
Now, persecution comes indifferent forms.
Of course, in the first centuryit was much more dire than
perhaps 2025.
In the United States, it can beuncomfortable to be a Christian
, but we're not here, we arehaving this conversation and
(13:57):
we're not worrying about thegovernment shadow banning us or
knocking on our doors.
But there is a cost, but it isultimately and I will say always
worth it.
I've never felt closer to myLord than when I've suffered for
his sake.
And how I put it oftentimes isthat the cost of the truth pales
(14:20):
in comparison to the cost thetruth paid for me pales in
comparison to the cost the truthpaid for me.
So how could I dare say this istoo tough when what the Lord
did for me was immeasurable interms of its agony and its angst
and its consequences?
So who I gained far outweighswhatever I've lost.
(14:41):
But I will say this this is thesecond thing I'll say I was
blessed with a great family,wonderful people and yes, it was
tough.
I mean, imagine anybodylistening to this.
Imagine if you're a Christian.
Imagine your son or yourdaughter or your brother or your
husband or your wife coming andtelling you they're a Muslim,
(15:02):
or coming and tell you they're aBuddhist or an atheist.
That's upheaval and you willexperience that kind of angst
and all these kinds of things.
So this is a natural reactionthis is not judgmental of
anybody.
However, I will say, because ofthat wonderful family, as rough
as times have gotten, the Lordhas restored.
The years of the locusts haveeaten you know and while they're
(15:23):
not Christians, and we pray forthem and we try to witness to
them in terms of our actions andour deeds and our words.
We're close again and in fact Iwould say in many ways we're
closer now, in light of some ofthe things we've gone through
recently as a family, than we'vebeen in a long time, and it's a
beautiful thing.
I wish I could say that of allthe Muslims I know who came to
(15:44):
faith.
I can't say that for all ofthem, because they've
experienced loss.
I can say that the toughness ofit all for me has been profound
, but the restoration of it andGod's kindness in a family
closeness is quite something.
Speaker 2 (16:03):
I'll tell you, when I stepped away as an Orthodox Jew
, I lost a lot of family membersthat still to this day refuse
to talk to me.
I was disowned by quite a few,and what actually gives me, what
restores me a little bit, isthe fact that if somebody like
you can't convince some of yourfamily members in Christ, then I
don't have to feel so bad aboutmy attempts.
But yeah, it's one of thosethings where, same thing, I
(16:27):
wouldn't give it up for theworld.
I miss some of my familymembers, but obviously there was
an awareness that I had when Iaccepted Christ that this is a
real possibility and not all ofthem.
Some family members really didaccept that and I have other
family members that haveactually accepted Christ as well
, but I definitely understandthat.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, and I think this is
important that we bring this up.
By the way, this is not just acuriosity about my biography or
your biography, david.
I think this is an importantpoint because you know, as an
evangelist and that's what I amEmbrace the Truth as a ministry
is all about evangelism.
We use apologetics in ourevangelism and we believe in
answering people, not questions.
But part of that answeringpeople is you have to understand
(17:12):
that evidence isn't always thereason they stay away.
The strength or the weakness ofthe evidence or the arguments
isn't always the reason thatthey're resistant.
It is the consequences of whatthose might mean, and this is
across the board.
This isn't just Jews and Arabsand Hindus and Buddhists who
have these deep religioustraditions or to worry about
this.
I can tell you.
I mean I can rattle off rightnow a quote from Thomas Nagel,
an atheist philosopher out ofNew York University, who says I
(17:34):
want atheism to be true and I'mmade uncomfortable or uneasy by
the fact that the most informedand well-intentioned people I
know are religious believers.
And he says it's not that Idon't believe in God and hope
that I'm right in my beliefs.
It's that I don't want there tobe a God.
I don't want the universe to belike that.
That's everything to do withdesire and zero to do with the
(17:55):
evidence.
So bringing that question up isso important because it's not
just about how convincing arethe arguments.
It really is about howresistant we might be and to
open someone up to thepossibility of recognizing that
maybe they're not as open asthey think they are.
Everyone likes to say they'reopen, but when the rubber meets
the road and truth is going tohave a price, suddenly our
(18:18):
allegiance to truth and I am notjudging anybody else, it took
me nine years, nine years ofsearching is not a testament
just to my thoroughness.
It's actually and I'm going tobe candid about this it's a
testimony to my cowardice,because I didn't want it to be
true and I tried my hardest tomake it not true.
Because I didn't want it to betrue and I tried my hardest to
make it not true because Ididn't want it to be the
(18:39):
consequences.
So any achievement in that nineyears is totally, totally to be
credited to the Holy Spirit andnot to me.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
I have a police officer actually who said
something and he's an atheistand he came to me and said I
really hope I believe in christbefore I need to um and again
it's one of those.
Yeah, it's one of those things.
He said it to me and I'm goingthat is something I will never
forget and I've listened toapologists my entire life I've.
I have really tried to to getinto it.
I won't say my entire life, butfor the last 15 years I mean my
(19:11):
entire role has beenapologetics.
And he said one said man, thatis more profound than most of
the things I've heard and itreally came to the heart of it
is just, it is.
It's that decision of he'srefusing to make it not based on
evidence but based on he justdoesn't want it to be true.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Yet yeah, yeah.
And that's one of the barriersis, jesus will change my life in
a way that I don't want andit'll be worse.
And when I'm done, when I'vehad my fun, when I've had my
go-round, when I sort ofspiritually get myself ready to
be a Christian, I'll become one,which is a fundamental
(19:46):
misunderstanding of what thegospel is about.
It's not about you gettingcleaned up and coming to Jesus
and Him saying, okay, now you'reready to be part of the club.
It's the exact opposite.
He's saying you are're ready tobe part of the club.
It's the exact opposite of he'ssaying you are never ready to
be part of the club.
You will never be ready, but Iwill transform you and it'll be
a process.
But what a profound thing forhim to say is that I hope I've
come to believe in him before Ineed to Boy.
(20:08):
That rings right to Jesus'swords.
You know and I'm not callingyour friend a fool in any way,
shape or form it's just the kindof thing that Jesus says is
that you store up all thesethings and you store up all
these things and you fool.
You did not know that tonightyour life will be demanded from
you and, having experienced thetragedies in life that I have
gone through in the past coupleof years, I can tell you life
(20:30):
turns on a dime.
So if your friend is listening,you may need to before you know
it.
And if you're considering it,do it now for the sake of your
eternity, but do it now for thesake of your life now.
I have never been morefulfilled, never been more
fulfilled than I am now, andit's never been harder to be
somebody who's a faithful personin any way, shape or form.
(20:51):
Yeah, but it is awesome.
I mean CS Lewis.
What does he go on and he saysis that we're like children who
sit in a puddle making mud pies,not realizing that we're
offered a bountiful feast.
We think this life is good andwe're not willing to give that
up.
But just turn around.
The feast is right behind you.
Sure, go ahead and make thesefake pies out of the mud you're
(21:14):
sitting in, or turn around andenjoy the bountiful feast.
What are you waiting for?
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Yeah, I love that I wanted to ask you, abdul.
You speak so beautifully aboutJesus and just watching some of
these talks and some of thesethings that you, just the way
you share, it's profound to me.
You speak with such humilityand I know you're so packed with
knowledge and I want to ask youyou know, in your search of
searching for true truth, rightwhen did it start shifting for
(21:42):
you to be just this beautifulthing?
Right when did it shift fromlike going?
Oh, I know the answers now, andnow you put it away, because I
think for me, as I continue tolearn, I go.
God is just beautiful.
I just I am so grateful that heallowed me to just have faith
in Him through the years ofdoubting Him.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Yeah, that's a great question, I'll tell you.
Now you're causing me to reallyreflect on some stuff.
I'll say this as a Muslim, Ialways believed in the beauty of
God.
I always believed in that andthat God is beautiful in general
the all-knowing, theall-powerful, the ever-existing,
the completely independent.
He needs nothing and everythingneeds him, and all these things
(22:22):
.
I always thought that wasbeautiful.
What ratcheted it up and I'lltell you, this actually happened
before.
I really took years before Ibecame a Christian.
You begin to see the seeds ofbeauty, these little things that
get planted in your mind, andGod gives you these things even
before you're a believer.
I was sitting in a movie theaterwatching a movie called Dead
(22:44):
man Walking and the movie is anaccount of Sister Helen Prejean,
who's a nun, who is against thedeath penalty.
And there's a guy named MatthewPonsolet who went on trial for
murder, convicted of it, murderand rape and all death penalty.
And there's a guy named MatthewPonsolet who went on trial for
murder, convicted of it, murderand rape and all these things,
and he wouldn't admit it andhe's a pretty awful guy.
He's like neo-Nazi, he's allthis stuff.
Well, she doesn't want him todie by death penalty, but she
(23:06):
also thinks he's guilty of thishorrible crime and she wants him
to repent of it.
So she's got dual purposes cometo the Lord, but also I don't
want you to die.
Well, at some point he finallyadmits it.
Because of her love and the wayshe serves him and the way she
cares about him, he comes toadmit what he's done and he
confesses Christ.
(23:26):
And at the end of the movie,toward the end, it's his last
day, it's his last hours, infact, on earth, before he's
about to go under lethalinjection.
She's behind these bars, she'sin front of the bars, really
he's behind the bars and theclocks are ticking and every
tick of the clock sounds like ahammer being hit on, some huge
thing that makes a noise.
(23:47):
And he's asking her to sing andshe says I can't sing.
He says I don't care if youcan't sing, just sing something.
And there's this beautifulscene where Susan Sarandon, who
plays her, puts her face up tothe bars and you can tell she
almost feels like she's willingherself to absorb herself into
the cell.
Almost that's the kind of thingthat's happening there.
And she sings be not afraid.
(24:08):
And you know the lyrics gosomething like if you pass
through the flames and all thesethings or you experience raging
waters, the flames won't hurtyou, the flood won't get you.
This is Jesus talking, for I gobefore you always.
In other words, he stands thereand he takes it and it's like
(24:32):
Superman in front of the fireand you can stand behind him and
you'll not be harmed.
And I remember sitting therethinking about that idea of
Jesus takes it for you.
And I was a Muslim and I'msitting in that theater and a
tear escapes my eye and Iremember thinking that's
beautiful.
If only it were true.
And so that started it.
That was the seedling thatstarted.
(24:52):
So I didn't believe it was true.
I just thought if that weretrue, that would be beautiful.
And then, over the course ofsome years, as I was wrestling
with these things, I began tosee the beauty of it and really
it did in fact hit me.
In fact, it's so funny.
I was writing in the margins ofthese Bibles.
I was reading, as I was aMuslim that's beautiful, that's
beautiful, that's beautiful.
I was writing it in the margins, and so I would say that there
(25:15):
was no one moment where I wasstaggered by it.
I was repeatedly halted overthe course of the journey, even
though I was still resistant,there was a beauty that I didn't
think I could actually resist.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
Same.
Sounds like another book.
Just saying that's beautiful.
Just sounds like you shouldwrite another book.
Those are how those thingshappen.
Just sounds like you shouldwrite another book.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
Those are how those things happen.
You know it's funny you saythat because I was sort of
thinking that while we weretalking just now.
But someone once asked me ifI've written a testimony book.
You know, like my good friendNabil Qureshi, seeking Allah,
finding Jesus and I haven't.
I've put my testimonythroughout.
Various books I've written, butI never just sat down and wrote
(25:57):
the testimony book, for a coupleof reasons.
One of those reasons is becausea book requires quite a bit of
detail about personalinteractions and relationships
and I have people who are closeto me.
This is not just my story, it'stheir story as well.
But the other thing is I'venever.
I also fear that it'll bederivative.
You know it's like ah, otherpeople have written on this and
(26:17):
Nabil's written so powerfully onit, what would I add by adding
my story?
But I think about this idea ofbeauty, not just logic but
beauty, and I think there is agood, legitimate argument from
beauty for the gospel.
But I think about this it's notjust the historicity, it's not
just the theology, but it's thebeauty of how it all meshes
together as something that isworth writing about.
So you know, maybe you guyshave inspired me.
(26:37):
There you go.
Speaker 2 (26:39):
I actually.
I have a book that I wrotethat's going to be coming out in
January.
It's called Jesus Christ.
That's a Lot of Evidence.
It's an apologetics book, but Ihave one right behind it
that'll be coming out.
It's actually a testimony of meas a Christian and it's called
the Pharisee I Didn't SeeChristian and it's called the
Pharisee I Didn't See.
And it's all the mistakes Ooh,I love the title.
It's all the mistakes that I'mthinking that I was doing the
right thing as a Christian andkind of following my Judaism of
(27:01):
here are the traditions I needto follow as a Christian, and
then realizing that it's notabout this anymore, it's about a
relationship.
All right.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
well, I'm getting a copy of that as soon as it comes
out.
Speaker 2 (27:11):
Yeah, the beauty got right.
There we go.
I do have a question.
I saw this in one of your talksand I thought it was beautiful
and I just wanted to open up alittle bit further on it.
Christians today, when they tryto tell the truth, their scene
is very arrogant and they try topresent people with what they
believe is a truth.
But people believe in their owngood, their own ability to be
righteous, and you made astatement about that when you
(27:32):
were at one of the campuses.
When you were at a of thecampuses I believe you were at a
college campus giving a talkabout that.
I thought it was beautiful.
I hate to make you recall it ifyou don't, but can you try to
recall a little bit for ouraudience of what you mean by
when Christians are seen asarrogant, but people believe
their own good and ability to berighteous.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Yeah, so actually it wasn't at a college campus, it
was across the table fromsomebody I knew really well.
Oh, so, it actually wasn't at acollege campus, it was across
the table from somebody I knewreally well.
Oh, okay, I've shared the storyat college campuses, but I was
sitting across the table.
This was a personalconversation and there's a
person who is really well-read,really thoughtful person, who
knows quite a bit about stuff,and this person happens to be an
(28:15):
ordained secular, humanistminister, which I thought was
interesting, because the wholeidea of ordination isn't that
one person says you're qualifiedto do this, ordination comes
from a higher power, but theydon't believe in higher power.
So I thought it was curious.
So I was sitting across thetable from him and I said, hey,
so what is your biggest hangupabout Christianity?
If you could pick one right now?
I mean you probably have many,but what's one you would want to
talk about right now?
He said, oh, arrogance.
It's clearly the arroganceissue.
I'm like, oh, wow, that was.
You didn't think about it verylong, you just said it.
(28:36):
And he's like well, I thoughtabout it for a while, that's my
big one.
So what do you mean?
And he said well, christiansare arrogant because they think
they have a lock on the truth.
You guys think that you guysare special, that everyone else
is going to hell and you'regoing to heaven because of this
one thing that you happen tobelieve.
That thing is going to hell,and I find that to be the height
of arrogance.
Okay, that's a pretty toughcharge.
(28:58):
And I said well, let me ask youa question.
You're an ordained secularhumanist minister.
He said, yeah, I said so.
Would you ascribe to thesecular humanist manifesto too?
Now, secular humanists have alot of manifestos, actually, but
the manifesto, too, is one ofthe most popular.
So he did say yes, I ascribe toit.
(29:18):
Well, I have a part of itmemorized.
And I said so.
Do you agree with the followingstatement Human beings have the
ability and the responsibilityto lead ethical lives of
personal fulfillment that aspireto the greater good of all.
Do you agree with that?
And he said yeah, I agree withthat.
I said so.
You agree that you have theability not only the
responsibility, but the abilityto lead an ethical life of
(29:40):
personal fulfillment thataspires to the greater good of
every human being?
He said of course I do.
I believe that I said okay,great.
The gospel tells me that I'm asinner, that as good as I might
be and as much of God, theimagago Dei, as I might bear,
there is a depravity in me thatwill always seek my own way.
I have that, you have that, mykids have that, my wife has that
(30:01):
, everybody has that.
So I need a savior, who's notme, to save me from me.
But you believe in yourself,who's arrogant?
It seems to me that there is afundamental difference between
our belief systems.
It seems to me that there is afundamental difference between
our belief systems, and he gotit.
He got it.
The conversation turned tosomething else, but it was a
(30:22):
good start and I'll say thisWe've had many conversations
after that and the conversationswere always fruitful because,
even though I pointed out thatarrogance I think that people
have when they trust themselvesout, that arrogance I think that
people have when they trustthemselves, and it actually
upends the conversation becauseChristians of all people
although I think there areplenty of arrogant Christians of
all people based on your actualworldview, you have no right to
(30:45):
be arrogant because you need asavior.
Who's not you, and I think thatlevel of exposition on what the
worldview teaches and then howthat humbles allowed us to have
much more fruitful conversationsabout faith issues, and he was
far more open after that.
So, yeah, it challenged him andeven his own arrogance, but it
(31:08):
also showed him I think I'mwilling to admit when I'm
arrogant and when I need to bemade humble, and it advanced our
relationship quite a bit.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
Yeah, I loved it.
I heard it.
I was like I don't want to ruinthe justice you gave it when
you said it, but, man, foranybody who has not seen that,
it was amazing.
So I appreciate you doing thatfavor for me and reliving that
moment.
Speaker 3 (31:31):
Yeah, you bet Wow.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
To ask you Abdul, if I can and I think this is only
because I read this on your pageEmbrace the Truth.
You like to speak about theTrinity, love it.
I know we're far into thispodcast, but the Trinity is
something I feel a lot ofChristians don't know how to
wrap their head around, orpeople anyone most people don't
know how to wrap their headaround.
Or people anyone most peopledon't know how to wrap their
(31:55):
head around.
How would you explain, maybe,the Trinity to a skeptic?
Or just explain the Trinityperiod?
Speaker 2 (32:02):
I mean, it's hard to really wrap your head around,
like I said yeah Well, thanksfor asking, because this is my
favorite topic to talk about,for two reasons.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
One is that it used to be the thing I would go after
the most when I was not aChristian.
I would go after it the mostbecause most Christians couldn't
even define it, let alonedefend it.
And then, when I came to seeits beauty and the way in which
it covers so many things inChristian theology, the way it
makes it illumines so manybeautiful truths in the
Christian faith Like, why don'twe talk about this more?
(32:33):
Yeah, so where Christians runaway from it, I run towards it
and I think it's a beautifultool.
So I have three levels at whichI just try to describe the
Trinity.
Level one is that it'slogically possible.
Level two is that it'sbiblically warranted, it's
actually in the Bible.
And level three is it istheologically necessary.
So one, it's possible.
Two, it's in the Bible.
(32:54):
And three, it's necessary,necessary.
So one, it's possible.
Two, it's in the Bible.
And three, it's necessary ifGod is truly to be great.
So for our purposes.
I mean I have a whole sectionin my book, saving Truth, not
Saving Truth in the Great SocialQuestion, where I give the
scriptural references about howit's in the Bible.
So I'm going to just do levelone and level three.
So level one is it's logicallypossible.
So how I make sure weunderstand it is we have to make
(33:14):
sure we define the Trinitybefore we can defend it.
And how we can define it isthat the classical Trinitarian
theology teaches that God is onein his essence, or one
substance.
One, what one being who existsin three divine persons.
Now, when I say the word person, everyone starts to think an
individual, ontological being.
(33:34):
Like you, javi and David.
You guys are separate personsand therefore separate beings
than I am.
But let's, I want to change the.
I want to use a differentversion of the word person to
mean mind or personality.
It's a different center ofconsciousness.
So the Father, the Son and theHoly Spirit are different
(33:55):
consciousnesses who aren't eachother, but they share the same
nature, the same what.
So how we define it is God isone, what that exists in the
world in three who's threecenters of consciousness.
So here's how I understand itGod has one nature and three
personhoods.
So if I were to hold up myiPhone and I were to say what is
(34:16):
this, you could say computer,you could say phone.
It's not really a phone anymore.
I mean, it makes calls, but noone makes calls on these things.
It's a computer, it's a.
Whatever device you name it,ultimately its basic nature is
it's a non-living thing.
Its whatness.
Ultimately, its basic nature isit's a non-living thing.
Its what-ness is essentially anon-living object.
You can look at me and you cansay what is that?
I have a what-ness as well.
(34:38):
I'm a human male, I'm aLebanese guy.
You can name it all.
Ultimately, I'm a living being.
So I'm an organic living being.
So I have a what.
My nature is that I'm a livingbeing.
The iPhone is a what.
It is a non-living being.
But you can't say about theiPhone who is that?
I know you have all the AIstuff in the world going on with
this, but it has no realpersonhood.
(35:00):
It's got no soul, it's got nomind, it's got no consciousness
that interacts with the outsideworld.
But I do so I have a whoness, Ihave a what, just like the
iPhone has a what.
But I also have an additionalquality, which is a who.
So I have a personhood.
I am the living being.
Who is Abdu?
So that's a different thingthan what I am.
(35:24):
Who I am and what I am aredifferent.
Why that's important is becauseit shows that the Trinity is
not a contradiction If we sayGod is one and three in the same
way, that's a contradiction.
But if we say God is one in oneway and three in a different
way, that's not a contradictionbecause they're mutually
exclusive.
So God is one.
(35:47):
What one nature, divine beingwith three distinct who's?
Father, son, holy Spirit.
So already you see, there is nocontradiction here.
So it's logically possible thatGod can exist this way.
Now, can you fully grasp it?
Well, of course not.
Why?
Because we're all unipersonalbeings.
We don't know what it's like tohave three minds.
(36:07):
I also don't know what it'slike to be eternal.
I had a beginning, but thingscan be eternal.
We know that they can be, or atleast one thing can be, and so
that ought not to bother us.
And if your inability to fullycomprehend a being disqualifies
that being from existence, wellthen you cannot possibly believe
(36:27):
in a greatest possible being,because you're conceiving him to
be like you, and that wouldseem to be utterly
self-defeating.
So it's possible that Godexists as a Trinitarian being.
Now I'm going to jump to the.
It's actually necessary for himto act that way, because if God
is the greatest possible beingand by definition God would be
the greatest possible being.
He would need nothing.
(36:48):
To be who he is, everythingwould need him.
He would lack nothing.
Be who he is, everything wouldneed him.
He would lack nothing.
He would be perfect, andperfection means that there are
no lacks.
There is nothing he needs thathe doesn't already have.
So God is personal, and apersonal God, who is ultimately
the greatest being, wouldn'tneed anything else to exist in
(37:08):
order for him to expressrelationality and a personal
aspect to himself.
But if God is one, there's oneGod and he's one in every single
way.
He is an undifferentiatedabsolute, like a monistic God.
Well, there's a problem there,because in order for him to be
relational, in order for him tolove, to be compassionate, to
(37:31):
sacrifice all these things, inorder for him to be relational,
there has to be an object ofthat relation.
Every relational aspect of liferequires a relator and the
related to it requires a subjectand an object.
So God, then, if he was one,absolutely one, with no
differentiation, would needsomething else outside of
(37:53):
himself to exist in order forhim to be who he is.
And that means he's not thegreatest possible being.
But the Trinity solves it,because the Father loves the Son
and the Son loves the Spirit,and the Spirit loves the Father
and the Son in the eternity ofthe community of the Trinity,
and he always was like that.
There was never a time when hewasn't relational, and that
(38:14):
means he needs nothing to be whohe is, and so he doesn't create
us because he's lonely.
He creates us not so that hecan have relationship, but so
that each one of us has theopportunity to have relationship
with him, and it's a selflessact.
And I can go on and on about theways in which the Trinity works
through Christian theology andthese kind of things.
But someone once asked me well,wait, wait.
(38:36):
If it's necessary that God bemulti-personal, why not 17
persons in the Trinity, why notjust two?
And my answer is Occam's razor.
Occam's razor says that youdon't multiply explanations
beyond what is necessary, and ifyou were to have a being who is
perfectly love, you'd have tohave the three kinds of love.
(38:58):
There would be Self-directedlove, which requires one person,
an others-directed love, whichrequires two persons, and then
communal love, which requiresthree.
And it's exactly what we have.
We don't have more, we don'thave less in the Trinity.
So God fulfills every aspect ofwhat it means to be love, which
is why the Bible doesn't justsay God is loving.
(39:18):
1 John 4, verses 8 and 16, yousee that God is love and the
Trinity actually makes sense ofthat.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
That's good.
I usually describe it in usingthe egg.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Don't say the egg.
I knew you were going to saythe egg.
Oh wait, Hold on.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
Hold on.
No, I'm a big fan of.
I'm glad you said that, becauseI burst a lot of bubbles and I
hate when I do this, but it justis what it is.
Why are you hardest not to useanalogies?
Analogies are good only so far,and at a certain point they all
break down into some form of aheresy.
Yeah, a certain point they allbreak down into some form of a
heresy.
So, we've got to be careful withthat, which is why you've got
(39:52):
to go through the hard work ofsteps one, two and three, and
the analogies might help a bit,but remember all of them.
Even the best of them breakdown at some point because you
are analogizing the creator tothe creation and it becomes
tough, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
It's interesting that you talk about love.
I actually wrote an epistemologya little while ago where you
know, there's a lot of this freewill discussion and things like
that, and for me it was.
You know, you were born with areverence for God and I was born
with a reverence for God andwhat I believe is that on our
creation, we're all created witha reverence for God, but we
(40:27):
have the free will to love.
And because God lives outsideof time, time isn't the
relationship, it's love.
And that's why you see somebodywho's showing love the thief on
the cross he doesn't need alifetime of time to believe in
God.
He only needs that one momentto accept Jesus as his Lord and
Savior, to have the relationshipto love him.
(40:48):
And so my epistemology was justbased on exactly that.
It was love, not time, and itwas humans who have this born
natural reverence.
But we have a free will of whatwe do with that reverence.
There are some people thatchoose to walk away.
There are some people thatchoose to love.
It really is our choice at thatpoint.
But that's kind of one of theepistemologies I worked on for a
(41:09):
little while.
Speaker 3 (41:10):
It really is our choice at that point.
But that's kind of one of theepistemologies I worked on for a
little while.
I like that.
What I like about it is it'sgot a qualitative over
quantitative feature to it andit actually makes sense that
love would be that qualitativefeature because it reflects the
quality of the maker.
Who is being in love?
(41:30):
Who defines love?
And Javi, I just want to makesure it was clear.
My guess is you were beingtongue in cheek about the
analogy?
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Yes, of course.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
I want to make sure everybody knows Javi doesn't use
those.
But he was making a joke aboutit, Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
I don't want to keep you here too long.
I just kind of will finish upwith one last question, if you
don't mind, please.
When we talk especially me Italk a lot about apologetics.
Javi's a huge fan ofapologetics.
When somebody asks a questionlike, hey, you know how do you
believe in God?
Because God is evil, he allowsevil and you know, therefore,
there is no God, I used to giveevery argument under the sun.
(42:03):
That I've learned from everysingle book, and what I've
realized over time is that whatpeople are really saying is hey,
there are evil things thathappen.
Something might've happened tome.
I lost a loved one, life hasbeen rough, something is in my
life and what I've realized is,over time, that that somebody
needs.
They need love, not logic.
They need a hug at the moment,not a lecture.
(42:25):
And and what I find sometimesis that with me, my brain and my
heart.
Sometimes, you know, my brainis on and I forget about the
emotional, loving part.
And for somebody who debatespeople often, how do you keep
that both alive?
Because I've seen you indebates and both your heart and
your mind are alive at the sametime.
(42:46):
How do you do that?
I can't say it's always easy,you know how do you do that?
Speaker 3 (42:49):
I can't say it's always easy, you know, depending
on the way in which theengagement is going.
I've got to remind myselfsometimes.
There is a fundamental thing Iremind myself of over and over
again and it's based on theloved ones that I have that
don't believe in Jesus Is if Iwere talking to them, what would
(43:09):
they hear?
How would they interact?
Would they feel cared for andloved?
Because the minute I walk awayfrom an engagement where I've,
you know, I've owned one of them, you know, and I, the language
has bothered me when thus andsuch destroys us in such a
person, I have to remembersomething.
That person walks away and theyeither feel humiliated or they
feel, as Greg Koukos put it, youknow, a little bit annoyed
(43:31):
because they have a stone intheir shoe that they have to get
out.
And I'm okay, annoying someonea little bit, so they think
about the issues.
But I always try to rememberwhat will that person feel like
after we're done?
Will they feel respected andunderstand that there is a
subtle difference, but it's animportant difference, between
not all ideas deserving respect,but every human being who has
(43:54):
an idea deserves respect, and Ihave to remember they're made in
the Imago Dei that Christ diedfor these people.
And what I want them more thananything is to know who Jesus is
, not how clever of a debaterAbdu Murray is.
If they walk away thinking, wow, that guy debates well, I think
I'll have failed and I hope I'mconvicted of that if I ever
(44:16):
succumb to it.
So I have to keep that in mindis that it's Jesus who I want
them to see, and I want them tosee that because I want them to
be in heaven.
And you keep that Imago Deialways there.
And then you remember your ownjourney, remember how stubborn
you were, remember how unwillingyou were, remember how
truculent and impassionedoftentimes you were, and realize
(44:38):
this is the journey foreverybody.
I think that's what keeps itgoing is that there is always
and this goes back to the way Iwas taught, the way I was
attracted to the gospel in thefirst place, the way I was
mentored by people who weredoing ministry and apologetics,
and ultimately the way we'redoing it now is that there's
always a person behind everyquestion, and no question is
(44:58):
ever merely academic.
I can't think of one time I'vebeen asked a merely academic
question.
Everyone brings baggage tothose questions, just like I did
, and I'm so glad people treatedme like a person, not a
question, and I think that helpsme.
I have failed at this, but I'dlike to think that I've
(45:19):
succeeded more than I failed.
And where I have failed, I'veasked the Lord please show me
and please have someone comealongside me to hit me with the
nearest brick and say you know,you need to change your mind
about how you handled that.
I hope that happens and I'mglad it has happened.
There's been people who've toldme hey, you know what, not so
gracious, but I thank you forthe compliment and I hope we can
all remember that these aresinners for whom Christ died,
(45:41):
not foes to defeat.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
That's great.
Javi actually mentioned, youknow, one of your.
One of the times you opened aQ&A, you were very specific
about how you opened it up andsaying you know, have a reason
for your question before youcome up.
I know he was going to mentionhere as well and I think that's
beautiful.
It's exactly what you're sayingis you know?
It's yeah, just recently.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
I was like I think you opened up I forgot what talk
was it and you kind of juststopped the room before you
started and just like, just askyourself why.
Like, why are you in this room?
Why are you asking thesequestions?
Right, you're here for a reason.
You're asking it what's?
What's?
What's led you beforehand,before you ask that.
And I think that that led me tomaybe share that at at at
(46:22):
church, you know, with, with mygroup and my within ministry,
and just going, why are you here?
Why are you serving?
In a sense, what's deeper here?
Right, and I think we couldlose the heart of why we do what
we do, why we're here servingand worshiping and all that
stuff.
But just sometimes it justbecomes mundane, and I've been
there before, so that wasprofound, it was just simple but
(46:44):
just easy, and I think that'swhat you do, Mr Murray, that's
what you do.
Speaker 3 (46:48):
Cool, Thank you very much.
Yeah, and it's the kind ofthing I have to remind myself
often because you can, here I amsitting in my office, in my
ministry's office, with folksacross the hall who do wonderful
work for our ministry, and wejust got back from doing a
dialogue with a Hindu who was aformer Catholic, became a Hindu,
and we had this dialogue backand forth and there was a guy in
the audience who was Hindu andhe said you really made me think
(47:10):
about this one aspect so much.
And I remember thinking tomyself I hope I never get tired
of hearing that, that I neverget tired of hearing how Christ
touches someone from a differentworldview, and I'm just
perpetually in amazement.
One of our values as a ministryis to be expectant.
God does crazy things despiteyour failures and sometimes to
(47:33):
augment your successes, and Ijust never want to get used to
it and the good news is Ihaven't been.
I'm just in perpetual awe ofwhat he's done and what ministry
does.
And if anybody's listening andthey want to get involved in
ministry in some way, whetherit's bivocational or whatever it
might be I hope that you do sowith the goal of making other
(47:58):
people your priority.
One of our mantras that'sprobably a bad way to put it
actually, now that I think aboutit one of our slogans and our
mottos at our ministry iskingdom, not castles, and people
, not platforms.
And if you put people aboveyour platform, God will give you
the right platform, but if yougo for platform, you will run
(48:19):
right over people.
And any mistakes I've made Ihope I've learned from.
But what a pleasure and anhonor this is.
You get to have a front rowseat to watch God work.
You're not doing a whole lot,you are just a conduit through
which the Lord works and we needto remember that over and over
again.
That's amazing.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
Love it, abdu.
I'm assuming Embrace the Truthis the best way for people to
learn about you.
Get your.
Any books you have.
I'm sure are listed there aswell, so if you want to learn
more about him.
Please go to Embrace the Truth.
Ahav, you want to wrap us up?
Speaker 1 (48:49):
Yeah, yeah.
I just want to thank you, abdu,just for just amazing pleasure
to have you here on this theBalanced Bible podcast.
Thank you for sharing the depthof your background, but also
just a profound love and passionfor our faith, for Christianity
, for Jesus, for God, and Ithank you for that, sir.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
It's a pleasure, guys .
Keep it up Well for God, and Ithank you for that, sir.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
It's a pleasure.
Guys, keep it up Well, thankyou, please, guys out there,
check out Abdu.
We have links in thedescription below.
Please check it out.
If you liked this episode,please like it, drop a comment
and, of course, follow usanywhere you are consuming this
podcast.
Have a blessed day.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com