August 21, 2025 • 42 mins
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What if the key to unlocking your potential isn't learning new skills, but upgrading your internal operating system? In this profound conversation with Dr. Ryan Gottfredson, we explore the revolutionary concept that transformed his life and could change yours: the distinction between your "doing side" and your "being side."
While most personal and professional development focuses on acquiring knowledge and skills, Dr. Gottfredson, author of Becoming Better, reveals that true transformation happens when we elevate our "being side"—the quality of our internal operating system, including our mindsets, emotional regulation, and character. This isn't just abstract theory; it's supported by decades of research across four fundamental mindset pairs that determine whether we operate from self-protection or value creation.
The conversation takes a fascinating turn when Dr. Gottfredson shares how his own childhood wiring created an avoidant attachment style that kept his wife at arm's length for 12 years of their marriage. His personal journey of awareness and transformation illustrates how our survival mechanisms from childhood often become obstacles to our success as adults, parents, and leaders.
Perhaps most eye-opening is the revelation that 60% of leaders struggle with a fixed mindset—they're more focused on avoiding looking bad than on growth and learning. This ego-driven self-protection prevents them from adapting to increasing complexity, causing both personal and organizational stagnation.
Whether you're leading a team, building relationships, or simply trying to reach your potential, this episode offers practical insights into how healing your mind, body, and heart can elevate your "being side" and transform every aspect of your life. As Dr. Gottfredson puts it: "The wiring that we develop to survive our childhood is not the same wiring that we need to succeed as an adult."
Take the first step toward upgrading your internal operating system by visiting RyanGottfredson.com for free mindset assessments, and discover how becoming better at "being" might be the most important work you'll ever do.
#mindset #ryangottfredson #bradweisman #becomingbetter
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Welcome to The Brad Weisman Show, where we dive into the world of real estate, real life, and everything in between with your host, Brad Weisman! 🎙️ Join us for candid conversations, laughter, and a fresh take on the real world. Get ready to explore the ups and downs of life with a side of humor. From property to personality, we've got it all covered. Tune in, laugh along, and let's get real! 🏡🌟 #TheBradWeismanShow #RealEstateRealLife
Credits - The music for my podcast was written and performed by Jeff Miller.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The wiring that we develop to survive our childhood
is not the same wiring that weneed to succeed as an adult, as
a parent, as a leader, as aspouse, as a fill in the blank.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
From real estate to the market as a whole, which
then sometimes will affect thetechnology.
Right, you know.
Come on the real life.
We all learn in different ways.
If you think about it, WayneDyer might not attract everybody
, and everything in between.
The mission was really to helppeople just to reach their full
potential.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
The Brad Wiseman Show .
And now your host, brad Wiseman.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
All right, we're back .
Yeah, you know I'm reallyexcited about this guest.
Been looking at his material,looking at his stuff for a
little bit now.
Got introduced to him throughone of the people that finds us
guests, which we love.
His name is Ryan Godforsen.
He's an author, he's fromSouthern California and I'm
(00:59):
going to just read his bio thatwas online because I just think
it kind of sums everything up.
Ryan is a PhD.
He's a cutting edge mindsetauthor, researcher and
consultant.
He helps organizationsvertically develop their leaders
, primarily through a focus onmindsets.
He helps improve organizations,leaders, teams and employees by
improving their mindsets.
Ryan is currently a leadershipand management professor at the
(01:21):
College of Business andEconomics at California State
University.
He holds a PhD inorganizational behavior and
human resources from IndianaUniversity and a BA from Brigham
Young University.
The book he just wrote, like Isaid, is called Becoming Better.
The tips from there, theinformation from there, are
really really profound and I'mexcited to talk to him about it
(01:44):
and really expand on the mindsetthat he talks about very often.
Okay, that's about it.
So Ryan.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
I'm here.
I'm here, you're there, you'rethere.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I see one of your books in the background.
Actually too.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, I've got three books Success Mindsets is the
first one, elevated Leader isthe second one, and then
Becoming Better is the new one.
That's just been out a littleabout a month.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, no, it's good stuff and it really all kind of
seems to tie into.
Mindset is what I mean when Ithink of you and I think about
everything I've read about you,whether it's your website,
whether it's the books and allthe notes that I see.
It's leadership and mindset,and the one thing that really
stuck out to me is upgrade yourbeing, not just your doing.
(02:27):
That was a quote that that youhad on your Instagram I think is
where it was, and I really, Ireally that that's real deep and
I love it.
Can you dig into that a littlebit For sure?
Speaker 1 (02:37):
And in fact, I think it opens up a developmental
strategy that can be absolutelytransformational for us If we
understand the differencebetween our doing I'm going to
call it our doing side and ourbeing side.
So if you think about, maybelike a graph, we've got an X
axis and we've got a Y axis.
The X axis I want you to thinkabout is our doing side, and our
(03:00):
doing side is our level oftalent, knowledge, skills and
abilities.
So, in fact, brad, let me giveyou throw out some names.
You tell me what these peoplehave in common.
If that's okay, sure, so let'sgo Ellen DeGeneres, tiger Woods,
bill Clinton, let me see.
And Michael Jackson.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Oh man, what do they?
Speaker 1 (03:21):
have in common.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Well, they're all very successful, Right, right,
they're all.
Well, they're all verysuccessful, right, right,
they're all they're achievers,they they've, you know they're,
they're very, they're excellingin what they do.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
yeah right, and how they've gotten to be as
successful as they've been isbecause of their doing side.
Sure, because they have certainlevel of talent, knowledge,
skills and abilities.
But the other thing theseindividuals have in common is
there's some controversyconnected to these individuals
and when you think about thatcontroversy, is that connected
(03:52):
to their doing side?
No, not at all.
It's connected to a differentside of themselves, and that's
our being side.
And our being side is thequality and sophistication of
our body's internal operatingsystem.
We can call it the quality ofour character, our psyche, our
mindsets, our emotionalregulation abilities.
(04:15):
And so here's what I've learnedis that maybe 98% of all
development efforts focus onhelping people improve along
their doing side, and that,surely, can be helpful.
We need it.
That's our education systems,our athletic programs and most
of our organizationaldevelopment efforts.
But what I found is that whenwe improve along our doing side,
(04:36):
it's only incrementally helpful.
But if we can elevate along ourbeing side, that Y axis, and
upgrade our body's internaloperating system, that is
transformational, that islife-changing stuff right there.
And it just so happens thatvery few development efforts
focus on that being side.
(04:58):
So that's the core of my workand my books how do we connect
into that being side?
How do we upgrade our internaloperating system so that we can
become more of the people thatwe want to become and have more
of the influence?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, and I think, and I agree a hundred percent,
and maybe to help the audiencewould be to let's, let's dig in,
define those things a littlebit more.
Give me an example of the doingpart of Michael Jackson.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah.
So Michael Jackson, for example, he develops the vocal skills
to be able to sing or to produce, put together some really
amazing music.
Now I think we've all hopefullyall of us have kind of bumped
shoulders with let's call themcelebrities.
People have been reallysuccessful.
Have kind of bumped shoulderswith let's call them celebrities
People have been reallysuccessful.
(05:47):
And one of the things that I'veI've learned is I've bumped
shoulders with some or metpeople who have bumped shoulders
with celebrities is we hearthat some celebrities are really
kind of just warm people andthey were so great to meet.
And there's other celebritiesthat you just kind of hear them
say they were such a tool, likeI mean, I was just a crumb that
you just kind of hear them saythey were such a tool like I.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I mean, I was just a crumb that they just felt they
could step over right?
Speaker 1 (06:08):
yeah, and, and that impact right there doesn't have
anything to do with their doingside.
All right, that's all abouttheir being side I mean you can
take even like doctors.
For example, a hundred percentof the time that they spend in
medical school and residencyprograms is developing knowledge
and skills, but very littletime is spent on figuring out
(06:31):
how to help doctors with theirbedside manner.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah, so true.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Which is maybe as important as having the skills
to do the work that they do.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Yeah, so true, and that really breaks it down that
they do yeah, so true, now, yeah, and that really breaks it down
because and but what'sinteresting about that?
When you develop more of thebeing side than the doing side.
I think also that's where trustcomes in.
Like when I think about mybusiness or I think about doing
okay, I can sell a house, I canwrite an agreement of sale Okay,
that's the doing part, but theI can write an agreement of sale
(07:01):
Okay, that's the doing part,but the the being part is
actually caring about their kidsgetting into school on time.
Caring about where are theygoing to put the pet when
there's a showing, caring aboutthat's the B.
I would think that's the beingside.
Is that?
Does that?
Seem right?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Spot on right, because here's what I've seen in
the real estate industry assomebody who has bought and sold
houses, you know, as a consumeror a buyer and working with
different real estate agents isthere, and this will connect
this into mindsets.
Here there's one of themindsets that I focus on is the
difference between an inwardmindset and an outward mindset.
(07:39):
When we have an inward mindset,we see ourselves as more
important than others, and thatcauses us to see others as
objects.
But when we have an outwardmindset, we see others as being
just as important as ourselves,and that allows us to see them
as people and to value them assuch.
And I'll just say my experienceworking with different realtors
(08:01):
is that some of these realtorssee me as a person.
Others see me as a dollar signyeah, commission, and I can pick
up on this.
I think all of us can pick up onthat instantly.
And so what matters oftentimes,yeah, you need to have the
(08:22):
requisite knowledge and skills.
That's the doing side, but whatreally matters is that, being
side, altitude.
Are we somebody who's onlyfocused on us and what's going
to come into our pocket as aresult of the sale, or is our
body more wired and programmedto create value for the people
(08:43):
that we're serving, program tocreate value for the people that
we're serving and, ultimately,it's when, when people that
operate there, they're operatingon a completely different
stratosphere than the others.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
And they say that's why and not that we have to stay
on real estate, but it's justinteresting but they say that's
the reason that women do abetter job in real estate than
men because they tend to becaregivers, they tend to be more
being in those moments.
Um, then, uh, a guy will comein sometimes and just be like
all right, let's just get thisdone and get the commission and
(09:14):
get it over with.
You know, whereas, uh, womentend to be more caregivers and
care and and and more about thebeing than the doing.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, I see that.
In fact, I think, in some ways,women have to compete
differently than men, and andfor many women they revert to
the being side as a way tocompete compete on a different
sphere than men, and so I thinkthat that's part of the process,
for sure.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah, it's amazing.
So the doing part in anybusiness or anything you're
doing with leadership, or thedoing part can be taught.
The being part, can it betaught?
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Well, there needs to be a certain level of education
about our being side.
But, right, we can put somelabels to this.
We can start talking aboutthings like mindsets, emotional
intelligence, character.
Even think about really greatattributes like humility,
authenticity, vulnerability,patience.
(10:14):
All of those characteristicsare not doing side
characteristics.
We don't gain thosecharacteristics by gaining new
knowledge and new skills.
We gain those characteristicsby refining and upgrading our
body's internal operating system, and so that's.
That's the inherent challenge iswe have, if we want to elevate
along our being side, weactually have to do different
(10:36):
things than what we're used towhen we do the doing side
development and where it allstarts is it starts with
self-awareness.
We've got to start awakening tothe quality of our being side,
and all of these different kindsof topics are different lenses
that we could take to evaluateour altitude along our being
(10:56):
side.
But here's the reality we canevaluate our altitude along our
being side.
We can get a sense of how highor how low we are there, and, of
course, the more that we getclarity on where we're at, we're
going to have greater clarityon where we need to go, and so
that's kind of the purpose of mynew book is teaching people.
What is our being side?
(11:17):
How do we evaluate our altitudeand then how do we elevate on a
higher level of our being side?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, and that's not easy work.
I mean you have to be willingto accept that you need to work
on that first right.
I mean, part of it's the wholedenial thing.
If you're denying that you needthat, or if you feel that
you're good the way you are,which most people, a lot of
people, will do, I mean, how doyou get past that?
I mean, who tells that personthat they need to work on that?
(11:47):
I mean that's a they have totell themselves.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
I would think yes, so one of the things that we've
learned is that being sidedevelopment requires what is
called a heat experience, and aheat experience is something
that causes friction in ourlives, that causes us to
reevaluate how we tend to seeand process our world, and so
(12:09):
then that's part of thisawakening process.
Now a heat experience could besomething that's external to us.
You know, maybe we got in anaccident, had a cancer diagnosis
, went through a divorce,something along those lines.
Those are all heat experiences,but not everybody capitalizes
on the heat experiences thatthey go through.
So it's more than just a heatexperience.
(12:29):
So there could be external heatexperiences.
There could be also internalheat experiences where we say,
hmm, just, I'm not the person Iwant to be, let me investigate
why that is right, and we couldcreate internal heat experiences
.
So we've got to have internalheat experience.
So that's the first ingredient.
The second ingredient needs tobe what is called colliding
(12:51):
perspectives.
So we need to now, with thatheat experience, kind of take
our perspectives and collide itwith different perspectives, to
kind of say, oh, are therebetter perspectives than what I
typically bring to thesescenarios?
And generally there is, becausehere's a saying that I've heard
(13:12):
that I really like.
The wiring that we develop tosurvive our childhood is not the
same wiring that we need tosucceed as an adult, as a parent
, as a leader, as a spouse.
As a fill in the blank, all ofus need upgrading right.
We did a great job survivingour childhood, whatever cards we
were dealt, but that wiringthat we developed to survive our
(13:34):
childhood probably isn't themost optimal wiring for
navigating life at a high level.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
It's kind of funny when you think about it that way
, when you think about it thatwe've that we're, we're taking
the wiring from, let's just say,zero to seven or eight or 10
years old and we're still usingthat wiring, thinking that that
that's absolute, that's gospeland really it needs to change
over time, like anything.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, let me bring it to life.
I'll give you myself as anexample and it's connected to my
life story.
So my dad in the early 80s hewas an entrepreneur and he lost
his business during the economicdownturn.
At that time in his life healso lost his first wife and had
three teenagers.
He meets my mom and theyshortly thereafter have me.
(14:22):
So my dad has been through alot of crap during that period
of time Because he kind of losthis business.
He took a stable civic job.
He was a civil engineer at atown a couple of hours away from
where I was born and he kept,he stayed in this stable civic
job for the remainder of hiscareer and he he had gotten
(14:45):
burned as an entrepreneur.
And so what?
I grew up in this environmentwhere, effectively, he kind of
taught me you should never be anentrepreneur because you're
just going to put your family atrisk and it's not worth the
hassle, wow.
So so that was how I was wired,entering into adulthood.
And I'm going through adulthoodand I take this job as a
(15:08):
professor job as a professor.
Why did I become a professor?
Well, probably because I've gotsome wiring that says there's
some safety and security in thetenure system, and that was part
of why I think I made mydecision, and I didn't realize
it, that was going on, that wasa part of my wiring.
Well, I'm in my job as aprofessor for a couple of years
(15:29):
and I'm starting to think Idon't know if I could teach the
same classes for the next 30years of my life, and so I
decided, well, maybe I need toexplore doing some consulting
and, and so I took a leave ofabsence from my university.
I took a job as a consultant atGallup, and I was at Gallup for
(15:50):
10 months and I got fired.
Oh, and I never thought I wouldget fired.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah, that's a whole different thing.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
So this was this was my heat experience getting fired
.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Cause it forced.
I mean I was.
I felt a lot of shame, I wastraumatized by this.
I never thought I'd be somebodywho's fired.
And here's the thing about itis, I knew I had the knowledge
and skills to be successful.
But what I realized throughthis experience and now I can
look back on it while I had theknowledge and skills to be
successful, I didn't have thebeing side abilities to be
(16:25):
successful, and so that rockedmy world and it led me to
reevaluate.
And at that time, just forcontext, I went back to the
university and I started to doresearch on mindsets.
And as I start to dig intomindsets I start to realize I
don't have the best mindsets andI need to do something about
(16:45):
that.
So what I learned is through myupbringing I had developed a
prevention mindset where my bodywas wired to avoid problems.
Oftentimes this is kind ofclosely aligned to a deficit
mindset, and what I learned thatI needed to have was a
promotion mindset, kind of moreof an abundance mindset, where
I'm less focused on avoidingproblems and more focused on
(17:09):
accomplishing a purpose.
And as I started to work onthat and I shifted my wiring
from my upbringing, from thatprevention mindset, to a
promotion mindset.
Well, now I started to thinkdifferently.
What do I need to do to createthe life of my dreams?
Well, that's when I kind of satdown and I decided well, I
think I'm going to write a book.
In order to be successful withthe book, I need to start a
(17:31):
business.
And that scared me to deathbecause of my internal wiring,
but because I had shifted to apromotion mindset that was no
longer as scary as it used to be.
I was still scared, but itseemed like it was the
absolutely necessary step that Ineeded to take to reach my
goals.
And so I became I'm going tocall it less comfort focused and
(17:56):
much more purpose focused, andthat's just completely changed
the trajectory of my life.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, and that's a good and that's part of.
That's part of the fourmindsets that you talk about.
It says about the promotionmindset versus the prevention
mindset.
So the prevention, we'll diginto that a little bit more
Basically, that type of mindsetis just avoiding any conflict,
avoiding anything that'suncomfortable avoiding, and so
it's more about avoidance thandoing something that's going to
(18:25):
get you further.
I mean that's-.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Exactly so.
It's about avoiding anydiscomfort or any problems.
Amazing so, for example, aboutavoiding any discomfort or any
problems.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Amazing.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
So, for example, a lot of times in organizations,
for example, why are, why aresome managers, micromanagers,
right?
Because their body's more wiredto avoid problems than to reach
goals.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
And that's.
That's a big distinctionbetween that prevention mindset
to a promotion mindset.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
It's living in the comfort zone.
It really is.
It's living inside the comfortzone and I always say to my kids
nothing ever good happensinside the comfort zone.
You got to get outside it, so,uh, but that's I like the
mindset, so let's go through.
You talked about the growthmindset, just because you're on
that kind of that path here, andI think we talked about growth
and fixed, didn't we?
Or no, inward and outward, yeah, yeah, yeah, inward and outward
(19:11):
, and an open mindset as opposedto closed mindset.
I don't know if we talked aboutthat, you want to get into that
one?
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yeah, for sure.
So let me just kind of pin thisup a little bit Sure.
So what I focus on, or what I'velearned through my academic
research, is that there's fourdifferent mindsets, mindset sets
that are out there and havebeen researched over the last 40
years, and so you've just putthe labels to these four
different sets.
But these four sets, they rangeon a continuum and hopefully
(19:39):
listeners have gotten a feel forthis.
They range on a continuum frombeing wired for self-protection
in the short term to being wiredfor value creation in the long
term.
So we talked about the firstone was the inward to outward.
The inward is short-termself-protection, outward is
long-term.
So we talked about the firstone was the inward to outward.
The inward is short-termself-protection, outward is
long-term value creation.
We talked about the preventionto the promotion.
(19:59):
The other one that you broughtup is and this is the most
well-known set is the fixed tothe growth.
So the fixed is when we're morefocused on avoiding failure and
looking good, and the growth iswhen we're willing to step into
learning zone challenges in aneffort to learn and grow, and so
we're willing to fail in theshort term for long-term value
(20:20):
creation.
And then the last one that wehaven't yet talked about is this
difference between closed andopen.
So when we're closed, we, inthe short term, we're focused on
being right.
We have a hard time admittingwhen we're wrong, but when we're
open minded, we see ourselvesas not having all the answers,
(20:41):
which allows us to not befocused on being right, but to
focus on finding truth andthinking optimally.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Yeah, and that's the most popular one.
If you think about it, mostpeople know the open mindset,
closed mindset because it getsused a lot.
You hear that term oh, I'm avery open-minded person or I'm a
very closed-minded person.
It gets used a lot.
So it's very interesting, veryinteresting, and the more you
dive into this with the booksyou've written, are leaders
(21:11):
practicing these things?
Do you see leaders of companiespracticing these things?
Do you see that there's a lotof work that needs to be done in
this area?
There?
Speaker 1 (21:20):
there is a lot of work that needs to be done in
this area, and here's the reasonwhy I think we use the term
mindsets almost too flippantly.
Right, it's our, we kind ofthink about it as our attitude
towards something, and it can bethat, but it's actually.
Our mindsets are even deeper.
Our mindsets are the mostfoundational aspect of
everything that we do.
They're the mental lenses thatshape how we see the world, and
(21:41):
so everything we see gets in,gets filtered into our brain
through our mindsets, and thenour mindsets interpret that
information in a specific way,and they do so at a
non-conscious level.
It's automatic.
So, for example, how do you howwould you say most people see
and interpret constructivecriticism?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
They get defensive, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Right, and so that's their body's immediate reaction,
is they're they're seeing andinterpreting this constructive
criticism as an attack.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
It's automatic.
And then they get defensive,and that makes sense given how
they interpret it.
But that's a veryself-protective way of
interpreting constructivecriticism Right.
A higher being-side altitudeway of making meaning of
constructive criticism is to seeit as an opportunity to learn
and grow.
And when we do that we've gotthis wider window of tolerance
(22:38):
to sit with that and explore ifit's something that we can
benefit from.
And so to come back to yourquestion, most leaders are not
conscious of their mindsets andso they are going off of the
mindsets that their life haskind of told them are the best
mindsets.
But here's what's interesting.
So out of these four sets ofmindsets, when I work with
(23:01):
leaders in organizations,there's one set of mindset that
all leaders struggle with themost.
Every leadership group and infact 60% of leaders struggle
with this one.
Do you want to take a guess?
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I was just looking at .
Speaker 1 (23:14):
I'm thinking what if I'm gonna I hope it's not growth
I'm gonna say open and closedso it is actually the fixed and
growth 60 no, that's what I washoping it wouldn't be, I know,
right, because it's probably themost important for them to have
for leadership is the growth.
Yeah, wow that terrible.
I think it'll kind of make sense, right?
Because why do 60% or more,depending on the organization of
(23:39):
leaders have a fixed mindset?
Well, a fixed mindset is we arewired to not want to look bad,
and most leaders have a lot ofpressure to look good, and so
they most leaders with thisfixed mindset they have a
tendency to hold on to what'sworked in the past, yeah, and
they have a hard time embracingwhat will work better in the
(23:59):
future.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
That's ego too.
I mean there's, there's ego.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Ego is very much plays a role in that?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Absolutely Because you don't want to look bad, so,
and you don't want to look likeyou want to look in front of
your, in front of your, yourpeers.
You want to look like you knowwhat you're doing.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yeah, Because as soon as you go to growth you might
not know what you're doing ingrowth.
Yeah, so let's connect thatword ego.
Now back to our being side.
Our ability to regulate our egois a big way for us to evaluate
our being side altitude.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Wow At all.
So that all ties in.
Yeah, because if you have anego to feed, it's really hard to
be focused on other people,because in your being state,
you're focused on other peopleequally, as opposed to what you
said, instead of just focusingon yourself.
When you're focused on your ego, you're focused on yourself,
right.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yes, yes, spot on right.
So I think it is helpful tothink about that being side as
being a continuum in and ofitself.
At the lower end, it's whenwe're wired more for
self-protection.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
And at the higher end is when we're wired more for
value creation and generally thepeople that are higher up here.
We've identified some thingsthey have a wider window of
tolerance, greater emotionalregulation abilities, but they
also have a purpose that isgenerally about creating value
in the world.
So I've been on a decent numberof podcasts and one of the
(25:27):
things that I've learned is thatpodcasters begin their podcasts
with different motives in mind,and the motives are what are
revealing of their being sidealtitude.
And here's what I've learnedabout podcasts you correct me if
I'm?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
oh hugo, he's.
He's gonna be ripping me apart.
Now I can just feel it.
I'm on the hot seat I.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I don't have a podcast myself, but what I know
is having a podcast is extremelydifficult and time consuming
and it, quite frankly, isprobably a thankless job.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yeah, but it's fun but it's fun.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Right and so why is it that somebody would go
through this work, in thiseffort?
Well, it's generally either toget certain results or outcomes,
and I'm going to say that'skind of a moderate being side
altitude.
But there's other podcast hoststhat are not about results and
outcomes.
That might be just secondary ortertiary, but the primary
(26:24):
reason is because they want tocreate value in the lives of
others.
Right, and what I loved in theintro to your show is, as you're
playing, your intro is you'vegot this quote help people reach
their potential, yeah, right.
So what I sense from you andthe motive that you have for
your podcast is about creatingvalue in the lives of others.
(26:45):
Yes, and and, and that'sprobably why it brings deep
meaning to you and it sayssomething about your being side
altitude.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Yeah, no, definitely, and it is, it's um, and the
more guests that I get, like youand Stephen Scoggins who we had
in recently, and, uh, we justhad Daryl Black in here the
other day it is really reallyenjoyable, for myself too.
There's self, there's self, uh,yeah, gratification, thank you,
from this also, where I'mlearning so that I can share
(27:16):
what you guys talk about onthese podcasts.
It's, it's very, it's so fullcircle, it really is and it's
very enjoyable and uh, it, yeah,it's great, and I appreciate
the, I appreciate the, uh, thecomment about the intro.
I appreciate that.
Let's talk about relationships.
Do you ever get into therelationships I'm talking about?
Like you know, um, husband,wife, whatever those kinds of
relationships?
(27:36):
There's a, there's a doing sideand a being side there.
I would think too, do you ever,do you ever touch on that?
Speaker 1 (27:44):
I do.
I mean, I don't.
I generally focus onrelationships in a workplace
context, but I think many of theideas translate.
So, for example, I think thateverybody has the knowledge and
skills to listen effectively,but in the heat of the moment,
(28:06):
do we utilize our knowledge andour skills to listen effectively
?
Right, that's what's contingentupon our being side here.
So so that's one way to kind ofthink about it is, I think a
lot of us know how to be a goodpartner, and we have the skills
to be a good partner.
We have the skills to be a goodpartner, but do we have the
being side?
Capacity now becomes thequestion.
(28:27):
So one of the things that Ibring up in my new book becoming
better is I bring up attachmentstyles.
Are you familiar withattachment styles?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
No, not at all.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Okay, so the theory around attachment styles is that
the quality of our caregiverduring our upbringing shapes our
attachment style.
So if we had a healthyrelationship with our caregiver
generally, we develop what iscalled a secure attachment style
.
When somebody has a secureattachment style, they are
(28:59):
naturally kind of trusting ofothers, right?
They trust others in the senseof if I as a child make a
mistake and my parents stillloves me, then that allows me to
be more trusting of others asan adult, right?
Or as I move forward.
Oh, I made a mistake, that'shuman, somebody will catch me,
(29:20):
right?
And that's kind of a secureattachment style.
Well, not everybody had greatcaregivers when they were
children.
So what they found is thatthere are other attachment
styles that are less healthy,such as an avoidant attachment
style or an anxious attachmentstyle, and so when we don't have
and I'll even kind of share myexperience, and so when we don't
(29:52):
have, and I'll even kind ofshare my experience my parents,
I've come to learn.
While they were always therefor me physically, they were
rarely there for me emotionallyand I've had to do some work
related to that.
But what that caused for me isI developed an avoidant
attachment style.
Oh wow, because I learned as achild that I was on my own to
meet my emotional needs.
I couldn't trust others to meetmy emotional needs, and that is
(30:13):
part of my body's internaloperating system.
This is related to my beingside.
So one of the things that I'vecome to learn about myself, with
an avoidant attachment style,is I have a tendency to prefer
working on my own and beingindependent, because when I was
little, I had a heart.
I couldn't trust others, and sonow, as an adult, I've learned.
(30:33):
Now I used to think that, oh,I'm fine, I'm like, I'm ideal, I
would say, but what I've cometo learn is I have some trust
issues, or that's how I've beenwired, yeah, and and.
So, while I may know how to be,let's just say, vulnerable, I
know how to be vulnerable.
(30:54):
I have the skills to bevulnerable, but for I've been
married for 15 years, and forthe first 12 years of my
marriage, I kept my wife at anarm's distance because I was
scared to be vulnerable.
So I knew how to be vulnerable.
I had the skills to bevulnerable, but my body didn't
(31:14):
let me be vulnerable, and soI've had to do some work on
myself, and that's some beingside work to be able and I'm not
perfect at it, I still needI've got room to grow but
because I'm aware of this, of mywiring, I'm aware of, kind, of
my altitude and I'm aware ofwhere I need to be or where I
(31:34):
want to be, now I could dosomething about it and that's
what that's been my focus overthe last several years being
aware is key to being able totransform your being side.
Spot on, that's where it starts.
Yeah, it's awareness.
Yeah, yeah it's awareness.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
That's very interesting, very interesting.
And also and I hate to makeeverything male, female, but do
you find that also, I think mentend to be more um, we're a
little tougher with beingvulnerable.
It's a little tougher for us.
I think it's just sometimesbecause who we're supposed to be
, or what society says we'resupposed to be, that could be
(32:14):
part of some of that also.
But that's an amazing, it's avery amazing realization that
you've come to in your own life.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Well, it's helpful and you know, I'm grateful for
the people.
Like Sue Johnson, folk has beenan expert on the space of
attachment theory and when I'vecome to learn, I remember
reading my first Sue Johnsonbook and I was, you know,
listening to it and I'm thinking, oh yeah, I've got a secure
attachment style, like the wholetime I'm reading the book.
And then, you know, fastforward a couple of years later
(32:47):
and I'm working with mytherapist and she's like I'm not
sure you have a secureattachment style and I'm like.
I think you're right.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
It's always the other person that has that stuff.
Right, it's never.
It's never us, but there'sthere's.
What I love about that isthere's there's Pete, there's
books written about it forpeople, cause there's a lot of
people have certain things goingon, but it's never us, though.
It's always somebody else.
The book was written forsomebody else.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yeah, and it's funny.
So I work with groups ofleaders and let me tell you a
story with one group.
Um, so I'm working with thisgroup of about 30 leaders.
They're bringing me in to do aworkshop the next day and I've
got a mindset assessment.
It's free on my website at RyanGoffersoncom, and I had
everybody take this mindsetassessment, but the leader who
(33:32):
brought me in to talk to thisgroup.
So I call her up the day beforeand I said hey, I really want
to get your results to be a partof this, the, the, this
collective report that I'mputting together.
Can you take the mindsetassessment?
And so she kind of drug herfeet, but she completed it.
And then I get a scathing emailfrom her that night said.
(33:52):
This assessment is terrible.
It is wrong.
I don't know what you're doing.
I don't think I'm gonna bethere for our meeting tomorrow.
I'm gonna let you still talk tomy group, but I'm not to.
I don't think I'm going to bethere for our meeting tomorrow.
I'm going to let you still talkto my group, but I'm not going
to be there.
Oh my gosh, oh my goodness,this is a train wreck.
And I could tell she was hotand so I just let it sit and I
said I'll just reach out to herin the morning.
(34:13):
And I woke up that next morningto another email from her and
the email said um, last night,sorry about my email, I was a
little hot.
And she said I talked to myhusband about it and I think it
would be good for me to be apart of this workshop.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
The husband's like uh , I think you need to do this.
Yeah, oh, man.
And also, what's what's goodabout that is the leader and the
people that are that arerunning something like that.
The rest of the people like tosee them vulnerable and know
that they're not perfect.
That's how you gain trust too,from your, your peers and from
the other leaders in the company.
You know is knowing that youfacing going.
(34:53):
Yeah, I have a problem withthis, or I have issues here, but
I'm working on it.
You know, it's something I'maware of, uh, it's it's amazing.
That's a good story.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
It's helpful to realize.
So what causes people to beself-protective?
Right Cause that's what thislady was, she was being
self-protective, or walls cameup.
Well, what causes people to beself-protective is, I'm going to
say, two broad buckets ourlife's experience, or our
current culture, or thecombination of the two, right.
And so one of the things andthis is I'll bring up this topic
, it's kind of been anundercurrent to what we've
(35:26):
talked about, but what I'velearned is that the more trauma
somebody has experienced intheir life, the more their body
becomes wired forself-protection.
It's our body's natural defaultmechanism to experiencing
difficult events and situations,and so when we realize this
like this is the meaningful partof this conversation is our
(35:51):
ability to elevate along ourbeing side is contingent on our
effort and ability to heal ourminds, our bodies and our hearts
At a foundational level, if wewant to become better.
It really is a healing journey,and the thing about this is that
our body doesn't naturally wantto seek the hurt or the scars
(36:16):
that we have, but it's only inrevealing those hurts and those
scars that we can go in andactually do the work of
nurturing ourselves or evenothers, so that when we're
leading a group, ourself-protective tendencies don't
run wild and we start tomicromanage or to freak out if
(36:39):
something goes wrong, but wecould stay calm, composed,
collected, so that we could bethat lighthouse that shines the
light for others to follow or toguide.
And that, to me, is the coolestthing about understanding our
being side is ultimately, if wewant to become better, we've got
(37:00):
to focus on healing our mind,our body and our heart.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Yeah, that's good, really good.
The other thing too, real quickbefore we wrap this up, is you
know it's never over.
I mean it's never over, right?
I mean to be real.
I mean we're always working onourselves, we're always what we
should be, and I think ourenvironment changes things that
we have to adapt to those things.
(37:24):
So I think you're being, you'rebeing part of you is is
something that just keepsevolving and we're not done.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Well, and here's one of the ways that I see it show
up in a lot of leaders and I'mreally it's everybody but we got
to think about two things We'vegot to think about our being
side altitude and we've got tothink about the complexity.
We've got to think about ourbeing side altitude and we've
got to think about thecomplexity of the world that
we're not navigating.
And if our being side altitudeexceeds our complexity, we can
navigate our world prettyeffectively.
But one of the things I see alot with leaders is what happens
(37:56):
when they get promoted into anew job or a new role.
Well, now the complexity of theworld has ratcheted up and the
question becomes has their beingside elevated along with that?
And most leaders who struggleit's because of this dynamic,
because the complexity of theirworld exceeds their being side
altitude, and so in thesesituations, the leader's only
(38:21):
options are either we've got towait for the complexity to die
down, which rarely occurs, orwe've got to figure out a way to
elevate along our being side,and that's the key.
And so that's why this is neverdone is because we're going to
continually put ourselves insituations that are increasingly
complex, and the more that wedo that.
(38:41):
It's going to require us tohave to elevate along our being
side and I hope and I appreciateyou again having me on so that
we could open up this door tohelp people recognize that there
is this different developmentalstrategy out here that's
focused not on our doing side.
We know how to do that, but wegot to open up this door to
focus on our being side.
(39:02):
Well, know how to do that, butwe got to open up this door to
focus on our being side.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Well, like Wayne Dyer said, we're human beings, not
human doings, right, spot on.
He was so amazing with thatstuff, so tell me how we get in
touch with you.
If our audience is really, theyshould be into this, because
it's amazing, it was good stuff.
How do they get in touch withyou?
I know you said something abouta survey.
They can do online or they cando like an assessment thing.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah, go to my website RyanGoffertoncom.
I've got a couple of freeassessments that are designed to
help you evaluate your beingside altitude, so those are
there free.
Also, you can learn about mybooks there.
And then I'm on all the socialmedia channels, so would love to
connect with anybody there.
In fact, I'll throw this outthere If you go and take one of
(39:44):
my assessments, um, and you'llget individual results.
If you want to talk throughyour results with me, reach out
to me on social media or throughmy website and I'd be happy to
jump on a call.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
That's awesome, man.
I really appreciate it.
Ryan, you're doing great stuff.
Really appreciate it, you beinghere.
Hopefully we'll have you onagain sometime, but you know,
thank you again.
It was awesome.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Thanks for having me on again.
Thanks for creating the spacefor people like me to come on
and share these ideas.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
It's awesome, it's a pleasure, all right.
All right, there you have it.
Ryan Godforsen.
You got to look him up.
It's RyanR-Y-A-N-G-O-T-T-F-R-E-D-S-O-N.
If you just search that, youwill find him all over the place
.
He was real easy to find.
He's on Instagram.
He's got a website.
Yeah, take him up on the offerhe just made, because that's a
(40:31):
great one.
He's got three books SuccessMindset, the Elevated Leader and
Becoming Better, which justcame out not too long ago.
All right, that's about it.
The wiring that we develop to survive our childhood
is not the same wiring that weneed to succeed as an adult, as
a parent, as a leader, as aspouse, as a fill in the blank.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
From real estate to the market as a whole, which
then sometimes will affect thetechnology.
Right, you know.
Come on the real life.
We all learn in different ways.
If you think about it, WayneDyer might not attract everybody
, and everything in between.
The mission was really to helppeople just to reach their full
potential.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
The Brad Wiseman Show .
And now your host, brad Wiseman.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
All right, we're back .
Yeah, you know I'm reallyexcited about this guest.
Been looking at his material,looking at his stuff for a
little bit now.
Got introduced to him throughone of the people that finds us
guests, which we love.
His name is Ryan Godforsen.
He's an author, he's fromSouthern California and I'm
(00:59):
going to just read his bio thatwas online because I just think
it kind of sums everything up.
Ryan is a PhD.
He's a cutting edge mindsetauthor, researcher and
consultant.
He helps organizationsvertically develop their leaders
, primarily through a focus onmindsets.
He helps improve organizations,leaders, teams and employees by
improving their mindsets.
Ryan is currently a leadershipand management professor at the
(01:21):
College of Business andEconomics at California State
University.
He holds a PhD inorganizational behavior and
human resources from IndianaUniversity and a BA from Brigham
Young University.
The book he just wrote, like Isaid, is called Becoming Better.
The tips from there, theinformation from there, are
really really profound and I'mexcited to talk to him about it
(01:44):
and really expand on the mindsetthat he talks about very often.
Okay, that's about it.
So Ryan.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
I'm here.
I'm here, you're there, you'rethere.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
I see one of your books in the background.
Actually too.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, I've got three books Success Mindsets is the
first one, elevated Leader isthe second one, and then
Becoming Better is the new one.
That's just been out a littleabout a month.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, no, it's good stuff and it really all kind of
seems to tie into.
Mindset is what I mean when Ithink of you and I think about
everything I've read about you,whether it's your website,
whether it's the books and allthe notes that I see.
It's leadership and mindset,and the one thing that really
stuck out to me is upgrade yourbeing, not just your doing.
(02:27):
That was a quote that that youhad on your Instagram I think is
where it was, and I really, Ireally that that's real deep and
I love it.
Can you dig into that a littlebit For sure?
Speaker 1 (02:37):
And in fact, I think it opens up a developmental
strategy that can be absolutelytransformational for us If we
understand the differencebetween our doing I'm going to
call it our doing side and ourbeing side.
So if you think about, maybelike a graph, we've got an X
axis and we've got a Y axis.
The X axis I want you to thinkabout is our doing side, and our
(03:00):
doing side is our level oftalent, knowledge, skills and
abilities.
So, in fact, brad, let me giveyou throw out some names.
You tell me what these peoplehave in common.
If that's okay, sure, so let'sgo Ellen DeGeneres, tiger Woods,
bill Clinton, let me see.
And Michael Jackson.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Oh man, what do they?
Speaker 1 (03:21):
have in common.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
Well, they're all very successful, Right, right,
they're all.
Well, they're all verysuccessful, right, right,
they're all they're achievers,they they've, you know they're,
they're very, they're excellingin what they do.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
yeah right, and how they've gotten to be as
successful as they've been isbecause of their doing side.
Sure, because they have certainlevel of talent, knowledge,
skills and abilities.
But the other thing theseindividuals have in common is
there's some controversyconnected to these individuals
and when you think about thatcontroversy, is that connected
(03:52):
to their doing side?
No, not at all.
It's connected to a differentside of themselves, and that's
our being side.
And our being side is thequality and sophistication of
our body's internal operatingsystem.
We can call it the quality ofour character, our psyche, our
mindsets, our emotionalregulation abilities.
(04:15):
And so here's what I've learnedis that maybe 98% of all
development efforts focus onhelping people improve along
their doing side, and that,surely, can be helpful.
We need it.
That's our education systems,our athletic programs and most
of our organizationaldevelopment efforts.
But what I found is that whenwe improve along our doing side,
(04:36):
it's only incrementally helpful.
But if we can elevate along ourbeing side, that Y axis, and
upgrade our body's internaloperating system, that is
transformational, that islife-changing stuff right there.
And it just so happens thatvery few development efforts
focus on that being side.
(04:58):
So that's the core of my workand my books how do we connect
into that being side?
How do we upgrade our internaloperating system so that we can
become more of the people thatwe want to become and have more
of the influence?
Speaker 2 (05:11):
Yeah, and I think, and I agree a hundred percent,
and maybe to help the audiencewould be to let's, let's dig in,
define those things a littlebit more.
Give me an example of the doingpart of Michael Jackson.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah.
So Michael Jackson, for example, he develops the vocal skills
to be able to sing or to produce, put together some really
amazing music.
Now I think we've all hopefullyall of us have kind of bumped
shoulders with let's call themcelebrities.
People have been reallysuccessful.
Have kind of bumped shoulderswith let's call them celebrities
People have been reallysuccessful.
(05:47):
And one of the things that I'veI've learned is I've bumped
shoulders with some or metpeople who have bumped shoulders
with celebrities is we hearthat some celebrities are really
kind of just warm people andthey were so great to meet.
And there's other celebritiesthat you just kind of hear them
say they were such a tool, likeI mean, I was just a crumb that
you just kind of hear them saythey were such a tool like I.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
I mean, I was just a crumb that they just felt they
could step over right?
Speaker 1 (06:08):
yeah, and, and that impact right there doesn't have
anything to do with their doingside.
All right, that's all abouttheir being side I mean you can
take even like doctors.
For example, a hundred percentof the time that they spend in
medical school and residencyprograms is developing knowledge
and skills, but very littletime is spent on figuring out
(06:31):
how to help doctors with theirbedside manner.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Yeah, so true.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Which is maybe as important as having the skills
to do the work that they do.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Yeah, so true, and that really breaks it down that
they do yeah, so true, now, yeah, and that really breaks it down
because and but what'sinteresting about that?
When you develop more of thebeing side than the doing side.
I think also that's where trustcomes in.
Like when I think about mybusiness or I think about doing
okay, I can sell a house, I canwrite an agreement of sale Okay,
that's the doing part, but theI can write an agreement of sale
(07:01):
Okay, that's the doing part,but the the being part is
actually caring about their kidsgetting into school on time.
Caring about where are theygoing to put the pet when
there's a showing, caring aboutthat's the B.
I would think that's the beingside.
Is that?
Does that?
Seem right?
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Spot on right, because here's what I've seen in
the real estate industry assomebody who has bought and sold
houses, you know, as a consumeror a buyer and working with
different real estate agents isthere, and this will connect
this into mindsets.
Here there's one of themindsets that I focus on is the
difference between an inwardmindset and an outward mindset.
(07:39):
When we have an inward mindset,we see ourselves as more
important than others, and thatcauses us to see others as
objects.
But when we have an outwardmindset, we see others as being
just as important as ourselves,and that allows us to see them
as people and to value them assuch.
And I'll just say my experienceworking with different realtors
(08:01):
is that some of these realtorssee me as a person.
Others see me as a dollar signyeah, commission, and I can pick
up on this.
I think all of us can pick up onthat instantly.
And so what matters oftentimes,yeah, you need to have the
(08:22):
requisite knowledge and skills.
That's the doing side, but whatreally matters is that, being
side, altitude.
Are we somebody who's onlyfocused on us and what's going
to come into our pocket as aresult of the sale, or is our
body more wired and programmedto create value for the people
(08:43):
that we're serving, program tocreate value for the people that
we're serving and, ultimately,it's when, when people that
operate there, they're operatingon a completely different
stratosphere than the others.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
And they say that's why and not that we have to stay
on real estate, but it's justinteresting but they say that's
the reason that women do abetter job in real estate than
men because they tend to becaregivers, they tend to be more
being in those moments.
Um, then, uh, a guy will comein sometimes and just be like
all right, let's just get thisdone and get the commission and
(09:14):
get it over with.
You know, whereas, uh, womentend to be more caregivers and
care and and and more about thebeing than the doing.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Yeah, I see that.
In fact, I think, in some ways,women have to compete
differently than men, and andfor many women they revert to
the being side as a way tocompete compete on a different
sphere than men, and so I thinkthat that's part of the process,
for sure.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Yeah, it's amazing.
So the doing part in anybusiness or anything you're
doing with leadership, or thedoing part can be taught.
The being part, can it betaught?
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Well, there needs to be a certain level of education
about our being side.
But, right, we can put somelabels to this.
We can start talking aboutthings like mindsets, emotional
intelligence, character.
Even think about really greatattributes like humility,
authenticity, vulnerability,patience.
(10:14):
All of those characteristicsare not doing side
characteristics.
We don't gain thosecharacteristics by gaining new
knowledge and new skills.
We gain those characteristicsby refining and upgrading our
body's internal operating system, and so that's.
That's the inherent challenge iswe have, if we want to elevate
along our being side, weactually have to do different
(10:36):
things than what we're used towhen we do the doing side
development and where it allstarts is it starts with
self-awareness.
We've got to start awakening tothe quality of our being side,
and all of these different kindsof topics are different lenses
that we could take to evaluateour altitude along our being
(10:56):
side.
But here's the reality we canevaluate our altitude along our
being side.
We can get a sense of how highor how low we are there, and, of
course, the more that we getclarity on where we're at, we're
going to have greater clarityon where we need to go, and so
that's kind of the purpose of mynew book is teaching people.
What is our being side?
(11:17):
How do we evaluate our altitudeand then how do we elevate on a
higher level of our being side?
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Yeah, and that's not easy work.
I mean you have to be willingto accept that you need to work
on that first right.
I mean, part of it's the wholedenial thing.
If you're denying that you needthat, or if you feel that
you're good the way you are,which most people, a lot of
people, will do, I mean, how doyou get past that?
I mean, who tells that personthat they need to work on that?
(11:47):
I mean that's a they have totell themselves.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
I would think yes, so one of the things that we've
learned is that being sidedevelopment requires what is
called a heat experience, and aheat experience is something
that causes friction in ourlives, that causes us to
reevaluate how we tend to seeand process our world, and so
(12:09):
then that's part of thisawakening process.
Now a heat experience could besomething that's external to us.
You know, maybe we got in anaccident, had a cancer diagnosis
, went through a divorce,something along those lines.
Those are all heat experiences,but not everybody capitalizes
on the heat experiences thatthey go through.
So it's more than just a heatexperience.
(12:29):
So there could be external heatexperiences.
There could be also internalheat experiences where we say,
hmm, just, I'm not the person Iwant to be, let me investigate
why that is right, and we couldcreate internal heat experiences
.
So we've got to have internalheat experience.
So that's the first ingredient.
The second ingredient needs tobe what is called colliding
(12:51):
perspectives.
So we need to now, with thatheat experience, kind of take
our perspectives and collide itwith different perspectives, to
kind of say, oh, are therebetter perspectives than what I
typically bring to thesescenarios?
And generally there is, becausehere's a saying that I've heard
(13:12):
that I really like.
The wiring that we develop tosurvive our childhood is not the
same wiring that we need tosucceed as an adult, as a parent
, as a leader, as a spouse.
As a fill in the blank, all ofus need upgrading right.
We did a great job survivingour childhood, whatever cards we
were dealt, but that wiringthat we developed to survive our
(13:34):
childhood probably isn't themost optimal wiring for
navigating life at a high level.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
It's kind of funny when you think about it that way
, when you think about it thatwe've that we're, we're taking
the wiring from, let's just say,zero to seven or eight or 10
years old and we're still usingthat wiring, thinking that that
that's absolute, that's gospeland really it needs to change
over time, like anything.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, let me bring it to life.
I'll give you myself as anexample and it's connected to my
life story.
So my dad in the early 80s hewas an entrepreneur and he lost
his business during the economicdownturn.
At that time in his life healso lost his first wife and had
three teenagers.
He meets my mom and theyshortly thereafter have me.
(14:22):
So my dad has been through alot of crap during that period
of time Because he kind of losthis business.
He took a stable civic job.
He was a civil engineer at atown a couple of hours away from
where I was born and he kept,he stayed in this stable civic
job for the remainder of hiscareer and he he had gotten
(14:45):
burned as an entrepreneur.
And so what?
I grew up in this environmentwhere, effectively, he kind of
taught me you should never be anentrepreneur because you're
just going to put your family atrisk and it's not worth the
hassle, wow.
So so that was how I was wired,entering into adulthood.
And I'm going through adulthoodand I take this job as a
(15:08):
professor job as a professor.
Why did I become a professor?
Well, probably because I've gotsome wiring that says there's
some safety and security in thetenure system, and that was part
of why I think I made mydecision, and I didn't realize
it, that was going on, that wasa part of my wiring.
Well, I'm in my job as aprofessor for a couple of years
(15:29):
and I'm starting to think Idon't know if I could teach the
same classes for the next 30years of my life, and so I
decided, well, maybe I need toexplore doing some consulting
and, and so I took a leave ofabsence from my university.
I took a job as a consultant atGallup, and I was at Gallup for
(15:50):
10 months and I got fired.
Oh, and I never thought I wouldget fired.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah, that's a whole different thing.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
So this was this was my heat experience getting fired
.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Cause it forced.
I mean I was.
I felt a lot of shame, I wastraumatized by this.
I never thought I'd be somebodywho's fired.
And here's the thing about itis, I knew I had the knowledge
and skills to be successful.
But what I realized throughthis experience and now I can
look back on it while I had theknowledge and skills to be
successful, I didn't have thebeing side abilities to be
(16:25):
successful, and so that rockedmy world and it led me to
reevaluate.
And at that time, just forcontext, I went back to the
university and I started to doresearch on mindsets.
And as I start to dig intomindsets I start to realize I
don't have the best mindsets andI need to do something about
(16:45):
that.
So what I learned is through myupbringing I had developed a
prevention mindset where my bodywas wired to avoid problems.
Oftentimes this is kind ofclosely aligned to a deficit
mindset, and what I learned thatI needed to have was a
promotion mindset, kind of moreof an abundance mindset, where
I'm less focused on avoidingproblems and more focused on
(17:09):
accomplishing a purpose.
And as I started to work onthat and I shifted my wiring
from my upbringing, from thatprevention mindset, to a
promotion mindset.
Well, now I started to thinkdifferently.
What do I need to do to createthe life of my dreams?
Well, that's when I kind of satdown and I decided well, I
think I'm going to write a book.
In order to be successful withthe book, I need to start a
(17:31):
business.
And that scared me to deathbecause of my internal wiring,
but because I had shifted to apromotion mindset that was no
longer as scary as it used to be.
I was still scared, but itseemed like it was the
absolutely necessary step that Ineeded to take to reach my
goals.
And so I became I'm going tocall it less comfort focused and
(17:56):
much more purpose focused, andthat's just completely changed
the trajectory of my life.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, and that's a good and that's part of.
That's part of the fourmindsets that you talk about.
It says about the promotionmindset versus the prevention
mindset.
So the prevention, we'll diginto that a little bit more
Basically, that type of mindsetis just avoiding any conflict,
avoiding anything that'suncomfortable avoiding, and so
it's more about avoidance thandoing something that's going to
(18:25):
get you further.
I mean that's-.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Exactly so.
It's about avoiding anydiscomfort or any problems.
Amazing so, for example, aboutavoiding any discomfort or any
problems.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Amazing.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
So, for example, a lot of times in organizations,
for example, why are, why aresome managers, micromanagers,
right?
Because their body's more wiredto avoid problems than to reach
goals.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
And that's.
That's a big distinctionbetween that prevention mindset
to a promotion mindset.
Speaker 2 (18:49):
It's living in the comfort zone.
It really is.
It's living inside the comfortzone and I always say to my kids
nothing ever good happensinside the comfort zone.
You got to get outside it, so,uh, but that's I like the
mindset, so let's go through.
You talked about the growthmindset, just because you're on
that kind of that path here, andI think we talked about growth
and fixed, didn't we?
Or no, inward and outward, yeah, yeah, yeah, inward and outward
(19:11):
, and an open mindset as opposedto closed mindset.
I don't know if we talked aboutthat, you want to get into that
one?
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Yeah, for sure.
So let me just kind of pin thisup a little bit Sure.
So what I focus on, or what I'velearned through my academic
research, is that there's fourdifferent mindsets, mindset sets
that are out there and havebeen researched over the last 40
years, and so you've just putthe labels to these four
different sets.
But these four sets, they rangeon a continuum and hopefully
(19:39):
listeners have gotten a feel forthis.
They range on a continuum frombeing wired for self-protection
in the short term to being wiredfor value creation in the long
term.
So we talked about the firstone was the inward to outward.
The inward is short-termself-protection, outward is
long-term.
So we talked about the firstone was the inward to outward.
The inward is short-termself-protection, outward is
long-term value creation.
We talked about the preventionto the promotion.
(19:59):
The other one that you broughtup is and this is the most
well-known set is the fixed tothe growth.
So the fixed is when we're morefocused on avoiding failure and
looking good, and the growth iswhen we're willing to step into
learning zone challenges in aneffort to learn and grow, and so
we're willing to fail in theshort term for long-term value
(20:20):
creation.
And then the last one that wehaven't yet talked about is this
difference between closed andopen.
So when we're closed, we, inthe short term, we're focused on
being right.
We have a hard time admittingwhen we're wrong, but when we're
open minded, we see ourselvesas not having all the answers,
(20:41):
which allows us to not befocused on being right, but to
focus on finding truth andthinking optimally.
Speaker 2 (20:47):
Yeah, and that's the most popular one.
If you think about it, mostpeople know the open mindset,
closed mindset because it getsused a lot.
You hear that term oh, I'm avery open-minded person or I'm a
very closed-minded person.
It gets used a lot.
So it's very interesting, veryinteresting, and the more you
dive into this with the booksyou've written, are leaders
(21:11):
practicing these things?
Do you see leaders of companiespracticing these things?
Do you see that there's a lotof work that needs to be done in
this area?
There?
Speaker 1 (21:20):
there is a lot of work that needs to be done in
this area, and here's the reasonwhy I think we use the term
mindsets almost too flippantly.
Right, it's our, we kind ofthink about it as our attitude
towards something, and it can bethat, but it's actually.
Our mindsets are even deeper.
Our mindsets are the mostfoundational aspect of
everything that we do.
They're the mental lenses thatshape how we see the world, and
(21:41):
so everything we see gets in,gets filtered into our brain
through our mindsets, and thenour mindsets interpret that
information in a specific way,and they do so at a
non-conscious level.
It's automatic.
So, for example, how do you howwould you say most people see
and interpret constructivecriticism?
Speaker 2 (22:05):
They get defensive, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
Right, and so that's their body's immediate reaction,
is they're they're seeing andinterpreting this constructive
criticism as an attack.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
It's automatic.
And then they get defensive,and that makes sense given how
they interpret it.
But that's a veryself-protective way of
interpreting constructivecriticism Right.
A higher being-side altitudeway of making meaning of
constructive criticism is to seeit as an opportunity to learn
and grow.
And when we do that we've gotthis wider window of tolerance
(22:38):
to sit with that and explore ifit's something that we can
benefit from.
And so to come back to yourquestion, most leaders are not
conscious of their mindsets andso they are going off of the
mindsets that their life haskind of told them are the best
mindsets.
But here's what's interesting.
So out of these four sets ofmindsets, when I work with
(23:01):
leaders in organizations,there's one set of mindset that
all leaders struggle with themost.
Every leadership group and infact 60% of leaders struggle
with this one.
Do you want to take a guess?
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I was just looking at .
Speaker 1 (23:14):
I'm thinking what if I'm gonna I hope it's not growth
I'm gonna say open and closedso it is actually the fixed and
growth 60 no, that's what I washoping it wouldn't be, I know,
right, because it's probably themost important for them to have
for leadership is the growth.
Yeah, wow that terrible.
I think it'll kind of make sense, right?
Because why do 60% or more,depending on the organization of
(23:39):
leaders have a fixed mindset?
Well, a fixed mindset is we arewired to not want to look bad,
and most leaders have a lot ofpressure to look good, and so
they most leaders with thisfixed mindset they have a
tendency to hold on to what'sworked in the past, yeah, and
they have a hard time embracingwhat will work better in the
(23:59):
future.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
That's ego too.
I mean there's, there's ego.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Ego is very much plays a role in that?
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Absolutely Because you don't want to look bad, so,
and you don't want to look likeyou want to look in front of
your, in front of your, yourpeers.
You want to look like you knowwhat you're doing.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Yeah, Because as soon as you go to growth you might
not know what you're doing ingrowth.
Yeah, so let's connect thatword ego.
Now back to our being side.
Our ability to regulate our egois a big way for us to evaluate
our being side altitude.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Wow At all.
So that all ties in.
Yeah, because if you have anego to feed, it's really hard to
be focused on other people,because in your being state,
you're focused on other peopleequally, as opposed to what you
said, instead of just focusingon yourself.
When you're focused on your ego, you're focused on yourself,
right.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yes, yes, spot on right.
So I think it is helpful tothink about that being side as
being a continuum in and ofitself.
At the lower end, it's whenwe're wired more for
self-protection.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
And at the higher end is when we're wired more for
value creation and generally thepeople that are higher up here.
We've identified some thingsthey have a wider window of
tolerance, greater emotionalregulation abilities, but they
also have a purpose that isgenerally about creating value
in the world.
So I've been on a decent numberof podcasts and one of the
(25:27):
things that I've learned is thatpodcasters begin their podcasts
with different motives in mind,and the motives are what are
revealing of their being sidealtitude.
And here's what I've learnedabout podcasts you correct me if
I'm?
Speaker 2 (25:43):
oh hugo, he's.
He's gonna be ripping me apart.
Now I can just feel it.
I'm on the hot seat I.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I don't have a podcast myself, but what I know
is having a podcast is extremelydifficult and time consuming
and it, quite frankly, isprobably a thankless job.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Yeah, but it's fun but it's fun.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Right and so why is it that somebody would go
through this work, in thiseffort?
Well, it's generally either toget certain results or outcomes,
and I'm going to say that'skind of a moderate being side
altitude.
But there's other podcast hoststhat are not about results and
outcomes.
That might be just secondary ortertiary, but the primary
(26:24):
reason is because they want tocreate value in the lives of
others.
Right, and what I loved in theintro to your show is, as you're
playing, your intro is you'vegot this quote help people reach
their potential, yeah, right.
So what I sense from you andthe motive that you have for
your podcast is about creatingvalue in the lives of others.
(26:45):
Yes, and and, and that'sprobably why it brings deep
meaning to you and it sayssomething about your being side
altitude.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Yeah, no, definitely, and it is, it's um, and the
more guests that I get, like youand Stephen Scoggins who we had
in recently, and, uh, we justhad Daryl Black in here the
other day it is really reallyenjoyable, for myself too.
There's self, there's self, uh,yeah, gratification, thank you,
from this also, where I'mlearning so that I can share
(27:16):
what you guys talk about onthese podcasts.
It's, it's very, it's so fullcircle, it really is and it's
very enjoyable and uh, it, yeah,it's great, and I appreciate
the, I appreciate the, uh, thecomment about the intro.
I appreciate that.
Let's talk about relationships.
Do you ever get into therelationships I'm talking about?
Like you know, um, husband,wife, whatever those kinds of
relationships?
(27:36):
There's a, there's a doing sideand a being side there.
I would think too, do you ever,do you ever touch on that?
Speaker 1 (27:44):
I do.
I mean, I don't.
I generally focus onrelationships in a workplace
context, but I think many of theideas translate.
So, for example, I think thateverybody has the knowledge and
skills to listen effectively,but in the heat of the moment,
(28:06):
do we utilize our knowledge andour skills to listen effectively
?
Right, that's what's contingentupon our being side here.
So so that's one way to kind ofthink about it is, I think a
lot of us know how to be a goodpartner, and we have the skills
to be a good partner.
We have the skills to be a goodpartner, but do we have the
being side?
Capacity now becomes thequestion.
(28:27):
So one of the things that Ibring up in my new book becoming
better is I bring up attachmentstyles.
Are you familiar withattachment styles?
Speaker 2 (28:35):
No, not at all.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Okay, so the theory around attachment styles is that
the quality of our caregiverduring our upbringing shapes our
attachment style.
So if we had a healthyrelationship with our caregiver
generally, we develop what iscalled a secure attachment style
.
When somebody has a secureattachment style, they are
(28:59):
naturally kind of trusting ofothers, right?
They trust others in the senseof if I as a child make a
mistake and my parents stillloves me, then that allows me to
be more trusting of others asan adult, right?
Or as I move forward.
Oh, I made a mistake, that'shuman, somebody will catch me,
(29:20):
right?
And that's kind of a secureattachment style.
Well, not everybody had greatcaregivers when they were
children.
So what they found is thatthere are other attachment
styles that are less healthy,such as an avoidant attachment
style or an anxious attachmentstyle, and so when we don't have
and I'll even kind of share myexperience, and so when we don't
(29:52):
have, and I'll even kind ofshare my experience my parents,
I've come to learn.
While they were always therefor me physically, they were
rarely there for me emotionallyand I've had to do some work
related to that.
But what that caused for me isI developed an avoidant
attachment style.
Oh wow, because I learned as achild that I was on my own to
meet my emotional needs.
I couldn't trust others to meetmy emotional needs, and that is
(30:13):
part of my body's internaloperating system.
This is related to my beingside.
So one of the things that I'vecome to learn about myself, with
an avoidant attachment style,is I have a tendency to prefer
working on my own and beingindependent, because when I was
little, I had a heart.
I couldn't trust others, and sonow, as an adult, I've learned.
(30:33):
Now I used to think that, oh,I'm fine, I'm like, I'm ideal, I
would say, but what I've cometo learn is I have some trust
issues, or that's how I've beenwired, yeah, and and.
So, while I may know how to be,let's just say, vulnerable, I
know how to be vulnerable.
(30:54):
I have the skills to bevulnerable, but for I've been
married for 15 years, and forthe first 12 years of my
marriage, I kept my wife at anarm's distance because I was
scared to be vulnerable.
So I knew how to be vulnerable.
I had the skills to bevulnerable, but my body didn't
(31:14):
let me be vulnerable, and soI've had to do some work on
myself, and that's some beingside work to be able and I'm not
perfect at it, I still needI've got room to grow but
because I'm aware of this, of mywiring, I'm aware of, kind, of
my altitude and I'm aware ofwhere I need to be or where I
(31:34):
want to be, now I could dosomething about it and that's
what that's been my focus overthe last several years being
aware is key to being able totransform your being side.
Spot on, that's where it starts.
Yeah, it's awareness.
Yeah, yeah it's awareness.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
That's very interesting, very interesting.
And also and I hate to makeeverything male, female, but do
you find that also, I think mentend to be more um, we're a
little tougher with beingvulnerable.
It's a little tougher for us.
I think it's just sometimesbecause who we're supposed to be
, or what society says we'resupposed to be, that could be
(32:14):
part of some of that also.
But that's an amazing, it's avery amazing realization that
you've come to in your own life.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Well, it's helpful and you know, I'm grateful for
the people.
Like Sue Johnson, folk has beenan expert on the space of
attachment theory and when I'vecome to learn, I remember
reading my first Sue Johnsonbook and I was, you know,
listening to it and I'm thinking, oh yeah, I've got a secure
attachment style, like the wholetime I'm reading the book.
And then, you know, fastforward a couple of years later
(32:47):
and I'm working with mytherapist and she's like I'm not
sure you have a secureattachment style and I'm like.
I think you're right.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
It's always the other person that has that stuff.
Right, it's never.
It's never us, but there'sthere's.
What I love about that isthere's there's Pete, there's
books written about it forpeople, cause there's a lot of
people have certain things goingon, but it's never us, though.
It's always somebody else.
The book was written forsomebody else.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
Yeah, and it's funny.
So I work with groups ofleaders and let me tell you a
story with one group.
Um, so I'm working with thisgroup of about 30 leaders.
They're bringing me in to do aworkshop the next day and I've
got a mindset assessment.
It's free on my website at RyanGoffersoncom, and I had
everybody take this mindsetassessment, but the leader who
(33:32):
brought me in to talk to thisgroup.
So I call her up the day beforeand I said hey, I really want
to get your results to be a partof this, the, the, this
collective report that I'mputting together.
Can you take the mindsetassessment?
And so she kind of drug herfeet, but she completed it.
And then I get a scathing emailfrom her that night said.
(33:52):
This assessment is terrible.
It is wrong.
I don't know what you're doing.
I don't think I'm gonna bethere for our meeting tomorrow.
I'm gonna let you still talk tomy group, but I'm not to.
I don't think I'm going to bethere for our meeting tomorrow.
I'm going to let you still talkto my group, but I'm not going
to be there.
Oh my gosh, oh my goodness,this is a train wreck.
And I could tell she was hotand so I just let it sit and I
said I'll just reach out to herin the morning.
(34:13):
And I woke up that next morningto another email from her and
the email said um, last night,sorry about my email, I was a
little hot.
And she said I talked to myhusband about it and I think it
would be good for me to be apart of this workshop.
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
The husband's like uh , I think you need to do this.
Yeah, oh, man.
And also, what's what's goodabout that is the leader and the
people that are that arerunning something like that.
The rest of the people like tosee them vulnerable and know
that they're not perfect.
That's how you gain trust too,from your, your peers and from
the other leaders in the company.
You know is knowing that youfacing going.
(34:53):
Yeah, I have a problem withthis, or I have issues here, but
I'm working on it.
You know, it's something I'maware of, uh, it's it's amazing.
That's a good story.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
It's helpful to realize.
So what causes people to beself-protective?
Right Cause that's what thislady was, she was being
self-protective, or walls cameup.
Well, what causes people to beself-protective is, I'm going to
say, two broad buckets ourlife's experience, or our
current culture, or thecombination of the two, right.
And so one of the things andthis is I'll bring up this topic
, it's kind of been anundercurrent to what we've
(35:26):
talked about, but what I'velearned is that the more trauma
somebody has experienced intheir life, the more their body
becomes wired forself-protection.
It's our body's natural defaultmechanism to experiencing
difficult events and situations,and so when we realize this
like this is the meaningful partof this conversation is our
(35:51):
ability to elevate along ourbeing side is contingent on our
effort and ability to heal ourminds, our bodies and our hearts
At a foundational level, if wewant to become better.
It really is a healing journey,and the thing about this is that
our body doesn't naturally wantto seek the hurt or the scars
(36:16):
that we have, but it's only inrevealing those hurts and those
scars that we can go in andactually do the work of
nurturing ourselves or evenothers, so that when we're
leading a group, ourself-protective tendencies don't
run wild and we start tomicromanage or to freak out if
(36:39):
something goes wrong, but wecould stay calm, composed,
collected, so that we could bethat lighthouse that shines the
light for others to follow or toguide.
And that, to me, is the coolestthing about understanding our
being side is ultimately, if wewant to become better, we've got
(37:00):
to focus on healing our mind,our body and our heart.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Yeah, that's good, really good.
The other thing too, real quickbefore we wrap this up, is you
know it's never over.
I mean it's never over, right?
I mean to be real.
I mean we're always working onourselves, we're always what we
should be, and I think ourenvironment changes things that
we have to adapt to those things.
(37:24):
So I think you're being, you'rebeing part of you is is
something that just keepsevolving and we're not done.
Speaker 1 (37:33):
Well, and here's one of the ways that I see it show
up in a lot of leaders and I'mreally it's everybody but we got
to think about two things We'vegot to think about our being
side altitude and we've got tothink about the complexity.
We've got to think about ourbeing side altitude and we've
got to think about thecomplexity of the world that
we're not navigating.
And if our being side altitudeexceeds our complexity, we can
navigate our world prettyeffectively.
But one of the things I see alot with leaders is what happens
(37:56):
when they get promoted into anew job or a new role.
Well, now the complexity of theworld has ratcheted up and the
question becomes has their beingside elevated along with that?
And most leaders who struggleit's because of this dynamic,
because the complexity of theirworld exceeds their being side
altitude, and so in thesesituations, the leader's only
(38:21):
options are either we've got towait for the complexity to die
down, which rarely occurs, orwe've got to figure out a way to
elevate along our being side,and that's the key.
And so that's why this is neverdone is because we're going to
continually put ourselves insituations that are increasingly
complex, and the more that wedo that.
(38:41):
It's going to require us tohave to elevate along our being
side and I hope and I appreciateyou again having me on so that
we could open up this door tohelp people recognize that there
is this different developmentalstrategy out here that's
focused not on our doing side.
We know how to do that, but wegot to open up this door to
focus on our being side.
(39:02):
Well, know how to do that, butwe got to open up this door to
focus on our being side.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
Well, like Wayne Dyer said, we're human beings, not
human doings, right, spot on.
He was so amazing with thatstuff, so tell me how we get in
touch with you.
If our audience is really, theyshould be into this, because
it's amazing, it was good stuff.
How do they get in touch withyou?
I know you said something abouta survey.
They can do online or they cando like an assessment thing.
Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Yeah, go to my website RyanGoffertoncom.
I've got a couple of freeassessments that are designed to
help you evaluate your beingside altitude, so those are
there free.
Also, you can learn about mybooks there.
And then I'm on all the socialmedia channels, so would love to
connect with anybody there.
In fact, I'll throw this outthere If you go and take one of
(39:44):
my assessments, um, and you'llget individual results.
If you want to talk throughyour results with me, reach out
to me on social media or throughmy website and I'd be happy to
jump on a call.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
That's awesome, man.
I really appreciate it.
Ryan, you're doing great stuff.
Really appreciate it, you beinghere.
Hopefully we'll have you onagain sometime, but you know,
thank you again.
It was awesome.
Speaker 1 (40:04):
Thanks for having me on again.
Thanks for creating the spacefor people like me to come on
and share these ideas.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
It's awesome, it's a pleasure, all right.
All right, there you have it.
Ryan Godforsen.
You got to look him up.
It's RyanR-Y-A-N-G-O-T-T-F-R-E-D-S-O-N.
If you just search that, youwill find him all over the place
.
He was real easy to find.
He's on Instagram.
He's got a website.
Yeah, take him up on the offerhe just made, because that's a
(40:31):
great one.
He's got three books SuccessMindset, the Elevated Leader and
Becoming Better, which justcame out not too long ago.
All right, that's about it.
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