January 29, 2025 • 15 mins
In the midst of a global pandemic, pediatricians are serving a unique role. While the coronavirus is generally showing milder effects on babies and children than on adults, there are still health concerns and considerations for infants in need of scheduled vaccinations, and kids who are home all day with parents who may be facing stressful situations.
In the second episode of our special COVID-19 series of The Brain Architects, host Sally Pfitzer speaks with Dr. Rahil Briggs, National Director of ZERO TO THREE’s HealthySteps program, to discuss how pediatricians are serving their patients during the pandemic, including using telehealth; why caregiver health is child health; and what she hopes the healthcare system can learn as a result of the pandemic.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome to The Brain Architects, a podcast from the Center on the Developing Child at
(00:05):
Harvard University.
I'm your host, Sally Fitzer.
And since our last podcast series was released, things have changed drastically as a result
of the coronavirus pandemic.
During this unprecedented time, we'd like to share resources and provide guidance that
you may find helpful.
So we're creating a series of podcast episodes that address COVID-19 and child development.
(00:25):
This episode is the second in our series, and our guest today is Dr. Rahil Briggs, the
National Director of Zero to Three's Healthy Steps program.
Good morning, Rahil.
Good morning, Sally.
And just so our listeners know, we're recording this podcast today on a video call, so the
sound quality may be different from what you're used to hearing when we typically record this
podcast in the studio.
(00:46):
So Rahil, what are you starting to see out in the field with pediatric practices affected
by this virus, particularly the healthy steps locations?
And how are the pediatricians starting to respond to the coronavirus situation?
Sure.
Thanks, Sally.
It's an excellent question.
And honestly, depending on when listeners are catching this, it may have already changed
(01:11):
by now.
The American Academy of Pediatrics is really our guide star for figuring out what's going
on, what they're recommending.
But a couple of facts on the ground remain the same, that pediatric primary care is the
main system we have for reaching young children.
In a normal time, whatever that was and may be in the future, pediatric primary care reaches
(01:33):
nearly all young children in our country.
Right now, the American Academy of Pediatrics, in recognition of the importance of vaccinations
and in recognition of the importance of really high quality newborn pediatric care, continues
to recommend, actually, that families bring newborns and bring infants and toddlers who
need vaccinations into the primary care practice.
(01:56):
So that's pretty extraordinary and speaks to the importance of those services, even
with the coronavirus swirling around.
As you know, there are about 12 to 13 well-child visits in those first three years.
Seven of them occur in the first year of life.
And a big chunk occur in that newborn period, where they're checking everything from the
Billy Rubin levels to maybe redoing the newborn blood stick to the weight gain and all these
(02:21):
really critical pieces.
So to your question, what are we hearing now and what are we hearing from our health-y
step specialists who work side by side alongside the pediatricians in these practices, we're
hearing that babies still need vaccinations and parents are more stressed than ever.
And that really needs attention.
All of this discussion about how children are saved by the worst impacts of the medical
(02:47):
parts of the coronavirus, they are at home often with parents who are incredibly stressed
and really looking for new approaches and ways to just frankly get through the day.
So that's where our health-y step specialists are coming really in handy.
I'd leave you with one particular point that has stuck with me.
We had one of our health-y steps practices in Colorado say that they were going to move
(03:11):
to drive through vaccination services, which sort of boggles the mind, but I suppose that's
the world we're living in right now.
And as they grappled with that and went back and forth about whether or not that was the
right thing to do, they decided they weren't going to do drive-through vaccination services.
And one of their driving pieces was knowing how important it would be for the family to
(03:36):
still touch base with that health-y step specialist.
And they're hearing that families are running out of diapers, families are struggling to
get formula, families are struggling to get needed medications for children with special
health care needs.
And the health-y step specialists are doing so much of that care coordination and that
systems navigation because as we know, this is disproportionately affecting those who
(03:59):
are impacted by poverty.
Would you mind giving just a really quick summary of what health-y steps is for the
listeners who may not know the program?
Sure.
Health-y steps is a team-based, evidence-based primary care program where we add a new team
member to the primary care network, which is a health-y step specialist who's an expert
(04:24):
in child development, focusing a lot on parent-child relationships, focused on infants and toddlers.
Babies, toddlers, birth to three.
We're an evidence-based program and have a three-tiered system of intervention with a
universal level of services that include needed screenings for family concerns and child concerns
(04:46):
and follow-up on those screenings, and then a tiered level of intervention based on need
for families with young children.
That's really interesting.
And you're actually teeing us up for our next question.
How are pediatricians helping families manage stress with all that's happening right now?
And what advice would you be thinking about giving to those families that are dealing
with the highest adversity and stress?
(05:08):
It's a great question, Sally.
I think a couple of things remain true, even though we're living through pretty extraordinary
times.
We know that there are two main ingredients for happy families with healthy children,
and those continue to be safe, stable, and nurturing relationships, and a sense of routine
and predictability to some extent.
(05:30):
So obviously, right now, people are very stressed, and families are worried about lost income
or even about not having enough groceries on the table.
We also know from some of the great work that's been done that babies pick up on that stress.
They're like recording devices that are always on.
We don't get to choose whether they record just the good or some of the bad.
(05:51):
It's always on.
So, what do you do, and what can pediatricians do to help families during this time?
I'd say three important things.
One, and again, this remains true no matter what time we're in, take care of yourself
so that you can take care of your children.
It's about going easy on ourselves, recognizing that nobody can overnight turn into a perfect
(06:13):
stay-at-home employee, preschool teacher, care coordinator, systems navigator, and parent
when you're not sleeping because you're worried about trying to get food on the table.
It's about asking for help, and organizations are scrambling to try to figure out the best
ways to help families, moving to telehealth and moving to much more nimble service delivery
(06:34):
options.
Two, some semblance of a daily schedule.
I think, again, this is a moment to go easy on yourself.
It doesn't have to be color-coded and beautiful, and every five minutes mapped out.
And some daily schedule where there's some playtime, time without screens, and hopefully
safe outdoor time.
(06:55):
We're advising families to expect that behavior will change, and you may see in young children
sleep disruptions or feeding difficulties.
One thing we know for sure is that they're going to be sensing the worry in the house
and the stress in the house and needing a few extra hugs.
And three, connecting with children when parents are in a good place, when they feel like they
(07:16):
can be that safe, stable, and nurturing environment for the children, and, if not, to take a break
and to ask for help.
Maybe one of the best parts of being a toddler is that favorite books are just that and can
be read every single day and multiple times a day.
There's not that exhaustion, being able to just spend that five minutes.
(07:40):
Depending on the age of the kid and how good their receptive language and understanding
is, we can also explain to them a little bit about what's happening here in a developmentally
appropriate way.
But they rely on parents to interpret the world around them.
And if parents are just sort of saying, no, no, it's fine, it's all good, you know, nothing
(08:01):
to worry about, that's going to feel discordant to a young child.
So I would say really, really helping parents develop the language to explain that there's
a virus and it's making some people sick.
Children are not getting very sick from it.
We're staying home to help keep other people from getting sick.
And what can we do to really make sure that we stay well?
(08:24):
You know, we have to wash our hands and not give hugs to prevent the spread of the virus.
And we have to focus on our youngest patients to ensure that there are healthy and resilient
families in the future.
Yeah, I hear a lot of what you're talking about also kind of swirling around mental health
needs.
I was wondering if you could speak a little more to what families and friends and neighbors
(08:46):
and communities could do to help support the entire family's mental health needs in the
current situation.
I was reflecting back, I think earlier this week, when a friend of mine who is a social
worker himself and someone that I've always thought of as very mentally healthy, he hasn't
(09:07):
seemed to struggle with depression or anxiety.
And he's one of those folks that can be the calm within the storm.
And we were chatting and he told me he had had a panic attack.
He's 45 years old, never had a panic attack before in his life.
These are pretty extraordinary times.
And so they're taking a toll on folks.
(09:28):
I think with all this worry that we're hearing, it's incredibly important for parents to be
that home base, for parents to be able to provide some of that calmness routine.
They don't need the latest game.
They don't need the latest app.
It's not about the latest and greatest sort of interventions.
It's about just some level of safety and stability in this highly stressful situation.
(09:53):
Self care is not selfish.
It's the best way that we can take care of ourselves and our children.
There are plenty of resources out there that used to be fee based and are now free, like
head space and calm, physical activity to the extent we can get it, walking, jogging,
jogging in place if need be, dancing, whatever it is that feels good and can be done safely,
(10:18):
cooking, journaling, taking a bath, having a cup of tea, chatting with friends, getting
on a video chat.
If you're not a member of a Healthy Steps practice and don't have access to that mental
health support right there in pediatrics, there are also other organizations that have
moved completely to an online service delivery model and are free.
(10:38):
The Ericsson Institute, especially Baby Network is one of them.
They're starting to, I think starting last week, provide online support, video home visits,
parent web support groups.
They're launching Facebook live sessions for infant massage and baby yoga and play and
connection ideas.
All sorts of options.
(10:59):
Again, just asking for help.
One thing that I've learned through this last month already is that we're all just doing
the best we can and we're all struggling in one way or another.
We have a section on our website on healthysteps.org on caring for yourself during coronavirus.
There's also a 0-3.org for tips for families, coronavirus, if that can be helpful.
(11:21):
What are the pros and cons of health services that are delivered by technology instead of
in person?
Telehealth is emerging as this wonderful solution to so many of our problems.
And it is absolutely a vehicle that can really help us reach families right now.
And there are some challenges to telehealth, not the least of which is that the guidelines
(11:44):
around telehealth vary state by state.
So you have 50 sets of guidelines about how to use telehealth, who can be reimbursed,
what qualifies as a telehealth visit.
And then when we think about infants and toddlers, if you've ever tried to get an 18-month-old
to just stand in front of the camera for a 20-minute telehealth visit, good luck.
(12:06):
And so I just think as much as it's an extraordinary platform and we can really extend the reach
of services through telehealth, we're going to see limitations, both because we don't
have a national infrastructure around this and because infants and toddlers are not great
at sitting still for the camera.
You're losing some of that key interaction piece of the parent and the child together,
(12:31):
perhaps, and creating even more stress for a family because dad is worried about making
sure that the baby stays in front of the camera for this visit.
So we're thinking a lot about, yes, the promise of telehealth and the unique challenges, particularly
related to infants and toddlers.
You're definitely speaking to the fact that our health care providers are being seen as
(12:53):
real heroes right now.
And we're wondering, what should our health care system learn from this experience in
order to adapt and improve the system for the future?
Maybe we finally recognize that we absolutely need a health care infrastructure for every
body in our country.
And maybe we finally recognize that that health care infrastructure includes mental health,
(13:18):
that there is no health without mental health, that there is no child health without caregiver
health and that goes for mental health as well.
And the developmental well-being is a key construct in there.
I am thinking so much about our increased understanding of all of these drivers of health.
(13:41):
We've known for a long time that you can't solve all problems within those four walls
of the medical practice, that if someone goes back to unstable housing, if someone goes
back to community violence, that those things are going to undo the important health intervention
efforts you've made.
My first decade of work was at Montefiore Health System in the Bronx, a borough where
(14:02):
people are dying from COVID at twice the rate of their neighbors and the rest of New York,
due largely to pre-existing health conditions and other risk factors associated with poverty.
There's a higher incidence of asthma in the Bronx, largely based on a higher incidence
of air pollution in the Bronx.
(14:22):
And so my greatest hope for all of us is that we recognize what heroes health care workers
are and we recognize that we need a massive rethinking of the health care system to focus
on those drivers of health that have to do with safe housing and environmental justice
and safe and stable and nurturing relationships that are going to really create the foundation
(14:47):
for health for folks, whether they're facing this virus or another one down the road.
We've got an extraordinary moment to get this right coming out of it.
And it's about whether or not we'll have the courage to do so and the will to do so and
the resources to do so.
Thank you so much Rahil for taking the time to be with us today.
You articulated so clearly the importance of making sure health care, including mental
(15:09):
health care, is available for all.
And that, as you said, caregiver health is child health.
We're really grateful that you took the time to speak with us today.
Thanks Sally.
I'm your host, Sally Fitzer.
The Brain Architects is a product of the Center on the Developing Child at Harvard University.
You can find us at developingchild.harvard.edu.
(15:31):
We're also on Twitter at Harvard Center, Facebook at Center Developing Child and Instagram at
Developing Child Harvard.
Brandy Thomas is our producer and Charlotte Gibney is our producer and audio editor.
Our music is Brain Power by Miela from greenmusicarchive.org.
This podcast was recorded at my dining room table.
Welcome to The Brain Architects, a podcast from the Center on the Developing Child at
(00:05):
Harvard University.
I'm your host, Sally Fitzer.
And since our last podcast series was released, things have changed drastically as a result
of the coronavirus pandemic.
During this unprecedented time, we'd like to share resources and provide guidance that
you may find helpful.
So we're creating a series of podcast episodes that address COVID-19 and child development.
(00:25):
This episode is the second in our series, and our guest today is Dr. Rahil Briggs, the
National Director of Zero to Three's Healthy Steps program.
Good morning, Rahil.
Good morning, Sally.
And just so our listeners know, we're recording this podcast today on a video call, so the
sound quality may be different from what you're used to hearing when we typically record this
podcast in the studio.
(00:46):
So Rahil, what are you starting to see out in the field with pediatric practices affected
by this virus, particularly the healthy steps locations?
And how are the pediatricians starting to respond to the coronavirus situation?
Sure.
Thanks, Sally.
It's an excellent question.
And honestly, depending on when listeners are catching this, it may have already changed
(01:11):
by now.
The American Academy of Pediatrics is really our guide star for figuring out what's going
on, what they're recommending.
But a couple of facts on the ground remain the same, that pediatric primary care is the
main system we have for reaching young children.
In a normal time, whatever that was and may be in the future, pediatric primary care reaches
(01:33):
nearly all young children in our country.
Right now, the American Academy of Pediatrics, in recognition of the importance of vaccinations
and in recognition of the importance of really high quality newborn pediatric care, continues
to recommend, actually, that families bring newborns and bring infants and toddlers who
need vaccinations into the primary care practice.
(01:56):
So that's pretty extraordinary and speaks to the importance of those services, even
with the coronavirus swirling around.
As you know, there are about 12 to 13 well-child visits in those first three years.
Seven of them occur in the first year of life.
And a big chunk occur in that newborn period, where they're checking everything from the
Billy Rubin levels to maybe redoing the newborn blood stick to the weight gain and all these
(02:21):
really critical pieces.
So to your question, what are we hearing now and what are we hearing from our health-y
step specialists who work side by side alongside the pediatricians in these practices, we're
hearing that babies still need vaccinations and parents are more stressed than ever.
And that really needs attention.
All of this discussion about how children are saved by the worst impacts of the medical
(02:47):
parts of the coronavirus, they are at home often with parents who are incredibly stressed
and really looking for new approaches and ways to just frankly get through the day.
So that's where our health-y step specialists are coming really in handy.
I'd leave you with one particular point that has stuck with me.
We had one of our health-y steps practices in Colorado say that they were going to move
(03:11):
to drive through vaccination services, which sort of boggles the mind, but I suppose that's
the world we're living in right now.
And as they grappled with that and went back and forth about whether or not that was the
right thing to do, they decided they weren't going to do drive-through vaccination services.
And one of their driving pieces was knowing how important it would be for the family to
(03:36):
still touch base with that health-y step specialist.
And they're hearing that families are running out of diapers, families are struggling to
get formula, families are struggling to get needed medications for children with special
health care needs.
And the health-y step specialists are doing so much of that care coordination and that
systems navigation because as we know, this is disproportionately affecting those who
(03:59):
are impacted by poverty.
Would you mind giving just a really quick summary of what health-y steps is for the
listeners who may not know the program?
Sure.
Health-y steps is a team-based, evidence-based primary care program where we add a new team
member to the primary care network, which is a health-y step specialist who's an expert
(04:24):
in child development, focusing a lot on parent-child relationships, focused on infants and toddlers.
Babies, toddlers, birth to three.
We're an evidence-based program and have a three-tiered system of intervention with a
universal level of services that include needed screenings for family concerns and child concerns
(04:46):
and follow-up on those screenings, and then a tiered level of intervention based on need
for families with young children.
That's really interesting.
And you're actually teeing us up for our next question.
How are pediatricians helping families manage stress with all that's happening right now?
And what advice would you be thinking about giving to those families that are dealing
with the highest adversity and stress?
(05:08):
It's a great question, Sally.
I think a couple of things remain true, even though we're living through pretty extraordinary
times.
We know that there are two main ingredients for happy families with healthy children,
and those continue to be safe, stable, and nurturing relationships, and a sense of routine
and predictability to some extent.
(05:30):
So obviously, right now, people are very stressed, and families are worried about lost income
or even about not having enough groceries on the table.
We also know from some of the great work that's been done that babies pick up on that stress.
They're like recording devices that are always on.
We don't get to choose whether they record just the good or some of the bad.
(05:51):
It's always on.
So, what do you do, and what can pediatricians do to help families during this time?
I'd say three important things.
One, and again, this remains true no matter what time we're in, take care of yourself
so that you can take care of your children.
It's about going easy on ourselves, recognizing that nobody can overnight turn into a perfect
(06:13):
stay-at-home employee, preschool teacher, care coordinator, systems navigator, and parent
when you're not sleeping because you're worried about trying to get food on the table.
It's about asking for help, and organizations are scrambling to try to figure out the best
ways to help families, moving to telehealth and moving to much more nimble service delivery
(06:34):
options.
Two, some semblance of a daily schedule.
I think, again, this is a moment to go easy on yourself.
It doesn't have to be color-coded and beautiful, and every five minutes mapped out.
And some daily schedule where there's some playtime, time without screens, and hopefully
safe outdoor time.
(06:55):
We're advising families to expect that behavior will change, and you may see in young children
sleep disruptions or feeding difficulties.
One thing we know for sure is that they're going to be sensing the worry in the house
and the stress in the house and needing a few extra hugs.
And three, connecting with children when parents are in a good place, when they feel like they
(07:16):
can be that safe, stable, and nurturing environment for the children, and, if not, to take a break
and to ask for help.
Maybe one of the best parts of being a toddler is that favorite books are just that and can
be read every single day and multiple times a day.
There's not that exhaustion, being able to just spend that five minutes.
(07:40):
Depending on the age of the kid and how good their receptive language and understanding
is, we can also explain to them a little bit about what's happening here in a developmentally
appropriate way.
But they rely on parents to interpret the world around them.
And if parents are just sort of saying, no, no, it's fine, it's all good, you know, nothing
(08:01):
to worry about, that's going to feel discordant to a young child.
So I would say really, really helping parents develop the language to explain that there's
a virus and it's making some people sick.
Children are not getting very sick from it.
We're staying home to help keep other people from getting sick.
And what can we do to really make sure that we stay well?
(08:24):
You know, we have to wash our hands and not give hugs to prevent the spread of the virus.
And we have to focus on our youngest patients to ensure that there are healthy and resilient
families in the future.
Yeah, I hear a lot of what you're talking about also kind of swirling around mental health
needs.
I was wondering if you could speak a little more to what families and friends and neighbors
(08:46):
and communities could do to help support the entire family's mental health needs in the
current situation.
I was reflecting back, I think earlier this week, when a friend of mine who is a social
worker himself and someone that I've always thought of as very mentally healthy, he hasn't
(09:07):
seemed to struggle with depression or anxiety.
And he's one of those folks that can be the calm within the storm.
And we were chatting and he told me he had had a panic attack.
He's 45 years old, never had a panic attack before in his life.
These are pretty extraordinary times.
And so they're taking a toll on folks.
(09:28):
I think with all this worry that we're hearing, it's incredibly important for parents to be
that home base, for parents to be able to provide some of that calmness routine.
They don't need the latest game.
They don't need the latest app.
It's not about the latest and greatest sort of interventions.
It's about just some level of safety and stability in this highly stressful situation.
(09:53):
Self care is not selfish.
It's the best way that we can take care of ourselves and our children.
There are plenty of resources out there that used to be fee based and are now free, like
head space and calm, physical activity to the extent we can get it, walking, jogging,
jogging in place if need be, dancing, whatever it is that feels good and can be done safely,
(10:18):
cooking, journaling, taking a bath, having a cup of tea, chatting with friends, getting
on a video chat.
If you're not a member of a Healthy Steps practice and don't have access to that mental
health support right there in pediatrics, there are also other organizations that have
moved completely to an online service delivery model and are free.
(10:38):
The Ericsson Institute, especially Baby Network is one of them.
They're starting to, I think starting last week, provide online support, video home visits,
parent web support groups.
They're launching Facebook live sessions for infant massage and baby yoga and play and
connection ideas.
All sorts of options.
(10:59):
Again, just asking for help.
One thing that I've learned through this last month already is that we're all just doing
the best we can and we're all struggling in one way or another.
We have a section on our website on healthysteps.org on caring for yourself during coronavirus.
There's also a 0-3.org for tips for families, coronavirus, if that can be helpful.
(11:21):
What are the pros and cons of health services that are delivered by technology instead of
in person?
Telehealth is emerging as this wonderful solution to so many of our problems.
And it is absolutely a vehicle that can really help us reach families right now.
And there are some challenges to telehealth, not the least of which is that the guidelines
(11:44):
around telehealth vary state by state.
So you have 50 sets of guidelines about how to use telehealth, who can be reimbursed,
what qualifies as a telehealth visit.
And then when we think about infants and toddlers, if you've ever tried to get an 18-month-old
to just stand in front of the camera for a 20-minute telehealth visit, good luck.
(12:06):
And so I just think as much as it's an extraordinary platform and we can really extend the reach
of services through telehealth, we're going to see limitations, both because we don't
have a national infrastructure around this and because infants and toddlers are not great
at sitting still for the camera.
You're losing some of that key interaction piece of the parent and the child together,
(12:31):
perhaps, and creating even more stress for a family because dad is worried about making
sure that the baby stays in front of the camera for this visit.
So we're thinking a lot about, yes, the promise of telehealth and the unique challenges, particularly
related to infants and toddlers.
You're definitely speaking to the fact that our health care providers are being seen as
(12:53):
real heroes right now.
And we're wondering, what should our health care system learn from this experience in
order to adapt and improve the system for the future?
Maybe we finally recognize that we absolutely need a health care infrastructure for every
body in our country.
And maybe we finally recognize that that health care infrastructure includes mental health,
(13:18):
that there is no health without mental health, that there is no child health without caregiver
health and that goes for mental health as well.
And the developmental well-being is a key construct in there.
I am thinking so much about our increased understanding of all of these drivers of health.
(13:41):
We've known for a long time that you can't solve all problems within those four walls
of the medical practice, that if someone goes back to unstable housing, if someone goes
back to community violence, that those things are going to undo the important health intervention
efforts you've made.
My first decade of work was at Montefiore Health System in the Bronx, a borough where
(14:02):
people are dying from COVID at twice the rate of their neighbors and the rest of New York,
due largely to pre-existing health conditions and other risk factors associated with poverty.
There's a higher incidence of asthma in the Bronx, largely based on a higher incidence
of air pollution in the Bronx.
(14:22):
And so my greatest hope for all of us is that we recognize what heroes health care workers
are and we recognize that we need a massive rethinking of the health care system to focus
on those drivers of health that have to do with safe housing and environmental justice
and safe and stable and nurturing relationships that are going to really create the foundation
(14:47):
for health for folks, whether they're facing this virus or another one down the road.
We've got an extraordinary moment to get this right coming out of it.
And it's about whether or not we'll have the courage to do so and the will to do so and
the resources to do so.
Thank you so much Rahil for taking the time to be with us today.
You articulated so clearly the importance of making sure health care, including mental
(15:09):
health care, is available for all.
And that, as you said, caregiver health is child health.
We're really grateful that you took the time to speak with us today.
Thanks Sally.
I'm your host, Sally Fitzer.
The Brain Architects is a product of the Center on the Developing Child at Harvard University.
You can find us at developingchild.harvard.edu.
(15:31):
We're also on Twitter at Harvard Center, Facebook at Center Developing Child and Instagram at
Developing Child Harvard.
Brandy Thomas is our producer and Charlotte Gibney is our producer and audio editor.
Our music is Brain Power by Miela from greenmusicarchive.org.
This podcast was recorded at my dining room table.
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New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!