December 1, 2025 • 45 mins
Teen pain often wants proof, and too many families discover self-harm the hardest way—by finding the evidence. Dr. Amy sits down with returning guest Stacy Schaffer, a licensed professional counselor, to unpack non-suicidal self-injury with clarity and care. We name what NSSI is and isn’t, explore why it seems to provide fast relief to hurting teens, and talk through what to do the moment a teen opens up. You’ll hear how shame keeps kids silent, how calm presence invites honesty, and why a clear plan beats punishment every time.
We dig into real-world guidance for parents, coaches, and teachers: how to thank a teen for their trust, offer choices for bringing caregivers into the conversation, and separate safety steps from secrecy-inducing consequences. Stacy explains the addictive loop—dopamine, relief, and reinforcement—that can build around cutting or burning, and how speaking to a teen’s own values and near-future moments (prom, summer jobs, sports uniforms) often lands better than distant warnings. We also highlight the long tail of scars and how regret can surface even after the behavior stops.
Most importantly, we share practical tools to bridge the urges: sensory substitutions like sour candy, ice, and specialized fidgets that create safe discomfort; 15-minute “urge surfing” to let intensity pass; and when tracking “sober days” can motivate rather than shame. We cover safety planning—locking up sharps without locking down trust—and the power of a supportive circle of adults beyond the home. Throughout, we keep the focus on curiosity over judgment and parenting the child you have in today’s always-watched, always-connected world.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Amy Moore (00:30):
Hi, smart moms and dads.
Welcome back to another episodeof the Brainy Moms Podcast
brought to you today by LearningRX Brain Training Centers.
I'm Dr.
Amy Moore, and I am here withmy friend and returning guest,
Stacy Schaefer.
I'm so excited that Stacy hasagreed to come back for part two
of this conversationspecifically around child and
(00:51):
teen mental health.
Let me tell you a little bitabout Stacy in case you missed
part one.
So Stacy is a licensedprofessional counselor with over
20 years of experience helpingchildren, teens, and young
adults navigate emotional andbehavioral challenges.
She is right down the road fromme in Arvada, Colorado.
She's the founder and directorof Stacy Schaefer Counseling,
(01:13):
and she specializes in bothgrief therapy and synergetic
play therapy.
So she's got extensivetraining.
She's got a master's degree inprofessional counseling, a
graduate diploma in Christiancounseling, and she's certified
in EMDR and Synergetic PlayTherapy.
So I'm super excited.
Welcome back, Stacy.
(01:34):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be back.
This is really fun.
Yeah, we had such a greatconversation and it we had to
hard stop, right?
You had a client and I wasn'tdone talking to you.
So glad that I wasn't donetalking.
That's amazing.
So I want to focus today onself-harm, non-suicidal
(01:56):
self-harm, this trend that wehave been seeing over the last
few years, probably fueled bysome social media as well.
But it's it's a real issue.
And not every therapist isequipped or experienced enough
(02:17):
with kids and teens who areharming themselves to handle it
in a gentle, appropriate way andto be able to coach the parents
on their role in helpinghealing.
So let's talk about that today.
Stacy Schaffer (02:32):
The self-harm issue is really hard and
increasingly so, with theonslaught of being able to
access like the internet and seethings, same thing is an
addiction that is easilytriggered by like a visual.
And so kids report that hasbeen really hard if they're
(02:55):
trying to be in recovery fromself-harm and then they're
scrolling and they seesomething.
So my understanding is thatInstagram has done a better job
at censoring some of that.
And so I appreciate that a loton behalf of the kids.
But yeah, I see so muchself-harm for sure.
(03:17):
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore (03:19):
Okay, so I think that there is a lot of shame
around it, and I for not onlythe child, but the parent too.
So I think so much of it ishidden and not talked about and
not brought out into the openbecause as parents, you may feel
(03:39):
like you have failed in someway, or you respond with anger
and consequences because you areshocked and scared, as opposed
to responding with care andcompassion.
And so I think that would be agreat focus today.
Stacy Schaffer (03:59):
Yeah, I think for sure, because I think when
lots of things go wrong with ourkids, like we go internally and
they're like, What have I done?
Like, I mess everything up.
Instead of starting first, kidsare living in this fallen world
with us, and so let's startthere instead as opposed to
there's something that you did.
(04:20):
But I think that it makessense.
It's painful to see this childthat you love like literally
hurting to see like actualevidence of their pain, and
which is like ironically part ofthe addiction.
They're like, I can'tcommunicate it well enough, so
let me use my body as canvas.
(04:42):
And so it I think it's a reallyhard one because I don't think
I don't think that we see it inthe way that they do.
You're hurting yourself andthey're like, but I'm trying to
feel better.
They're like, but that doesn'tlook better.
I've seen a lot of kids engagedin self-harm over the years.
(05:07):
I think it's interesting inthis past year.
When I've seen it before, butI've seen it a lot this year,
and I don't know why, is a lotof regret for kids who are no
longer struggling with thataddiction, but the scars remain.
And so show me things, andthey're like, I can't hide, I
(05:28):
don't have a problem anymore,but I can't hide it.
And so what do I do?
And so we talked aboutstrategies like for the future.
Once they're an adult, theywant to get like tattoos to
cover things, but it fuels theconversation for me for the kids
(05:48):
that are currently strugglingto be like, I just want to make
you aware that like there couldbe challenges with this down the
line because like kids just seein front of their face to be
like you might be wanting a jobinterview, and it's really hot
(06:09):
outside, and that could pose aproblem if this continues, yeah,
and I feel that's not the magicanswer, but like that's I think
a really important line ofcommunication to have with our
kids.
Of this, it's not gonna fade.
What you're doing is not gonnafade, and people without your
(06:30):
permission are going to knowabout what you struggle with,
yeah, but that has to land withconflict, right?
Dr. Amy Moore (06:41):
Teenagers are thinking about the here and now,
and they don't necessarily havethat future-oriented mindset.
And so how do you gently how doyou gently share?
Hey, this could be somethingthat will challenge you later in
a way that doesn't say, oh mygod, you're gonna regret this.
Stacy Schaffer (07:02):
I think it comes down to speaking to their
values, like things like prom,like homecoming, going to the
beach with your family, stuffthat like you you think was
happening for them to be like,hey, this is just up and coming.
It's it is your body, likeyou're ready to do what you want
(07:22):
with your body, just want tobring to your awareness.
And sometimes I'll say to kids,I've had kids like really
regret this, and they're like,You have?
Because I think they also wantto do what their peers are
doing.
So a lot of times kids will askme, Do you have any other kids
that struggle with this?
I'm like, Yeah, and so I don'tI don't think that's like
(07:45):
necessarily the thing that'sgonna turn their desire, but I
think it's gonna play into seedin their head of yeah, I do want
to go to prom and you don'twear long sleeves to prom.
And so I think it's speaking towhat they're into if they're
like their sport shows like acertain part of their play
(08:06):
soccer and they're cutting ontheir legs, that kind of thing.
I think it's just another lineof communication.
Dr. Amy Moore (08:11):
Yeah.
So I feel like we jumped in themiddle of the conversation.
So for our listeners, can westart at the beginning and just
talk a little bit about what dowe mean by non-suicidal
self-harm?
What are those behaviors?
Let's just talk from thebeginning.
Sure.
Stacy Schaffer (08:29):
Okay.
I like that we're now callingself-harm non-suicidal
self-injury, because I think oldschool, we used to think that
if you saw a kid cutting, thatmeant that they were trying to
die by suicide.
And we have discovered that itthat is not the case.
There is, there can be somecorrelation, but that it's not a
(08:50):
direct one.
That there is some in the Venndiagram.
And so self-harm is somethingthat oftentimes kids who are
really hurting and are having ahard time expressing that
they're really hurting, thatthey will harm themselves.
And the research shows thatit's not only like releases like
(09:14):
chemicals in their brain thatdoes actually make them feel
better, but it's a way ofexpressing.
I can't tell you exactly howbad my heart is hurting, but I
can show you.
And so it's like they're like,I know how to cope with this
pain, I know how to cope withthis blood, this like whatever,
I know how to cope with this, Idon't know how to cope with the
(09:36):
internal psychic pain.
Dr. Amy Moore (09:39):
So I don't know if you know the answer to this
question, but how do we knowthat the brain releases
feel-good chemicals in responseto cutting or burning?
How do we know?
Because we're not doing arandomized control trial to see
that's not ethical.
(10:00):
Let's not put you in a PET scanwhile you harm yourself.
How do we know?
Just behaviorally.
Stacy Schaffer (10:07):
I do believe there has been some research of
people smarter than I have ofwhat kind of happens in the
brain, and we can find like thatresearch.
But I think it's I don't thinkit's like super complicated.
I think it's just it like theyget like a hit in the same way
like when you scroll, that youget like a hit.
So I don't think that it'ssuper complex.
(10:29):
I just think that somethinghappens either like an
adrenaline rush or like justdopamine flooding.
I don't know.
Okay, but I do know for surethat there has been research on
it.
Dr. Amy Moore (10:44):
So you say that kids who self-harm can't express
the pain that they're feeling.
Either they've experienced atraumatic event or they're
having a difficult time dealingwith typical stress stressors in
child and adolescence.
(11:06):
Walk me through what theprofile of kids and teens who
self-harm.
What's the typical profile?
Stacy Schaffer (11:16):
I would say a typical profile could be a kid
that is more withdrawn.
And we know a lot of timestweens and teens they start to
communicate less, like to theirfamily, so it's not everybody,
but that start to be a littlebit secretive.
And I think a lot of them tryreally hard to win it for first
(11:39):
starts to cover.
And so if you're seeinginappropriate like clothing to
the season, sometimes that's athing.
Like it gets really hot here,and I've seen kids that engage
in self-harm wear hoodies likeall summer, and that alone isn't
like an alarm bell, just sowe're clear, because some kids
(12:01):
like hoodies and kids, likewhatever, but they're like
they're clearly like trying tohide what is happening.
I think that kids that don'tnecessarily have someone to
communicate with outside oftheir family.
If there's if there's a coach,if there's therapist, if there's
(12:25):
someone, usually those are thepeople that a kid is gonna
confide in first if they if theydo share about self-harm.
So I think it's reallyimportant.
I like it's my lifetime soapboxthat kids need to have adults
who care about them outside oftheir family that are safe.
And so oftentimes they might dothe first reveal to them.
Dr. Amy Moore (12:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
So then what should that adultdo?
How should that adult react tothat reveal?
Stacy Schaffer (12:59):
Yeah, I and so self-harm is a really tricky
one.
It's a really tricky onebecause you want to like
maintain like theconfidentiality of a kid and
their freedom and being able totalk to you, however, like that
does lend itself into theviolations of confidentiality
because like they are hurtingthemselves, and I think that it
(13:24):
really is a requirement tocommunicate to the parents as
much as I think that's reallyhard for kids that are like I
think like I I thought I couldtell you everything, and you you
can, but my job is to ep safe.
But in in my particularcontext, oftentimes it's not I'm
not the first reveal, like byby the time they get to me, so I
(13:46):
don't have to do that a lotbecause there it is already a
known issue.
Um, if the issue escalates,then we communicate more.
But I think that's for anyadults listening, like that's
it's too big to hold byyourself.
And whether you're the parentor the coach or the favorite
aunt, that it's too big to holdalone, even as an adult, in my
(14:10):
opinion, that there needs to beat least some kind of supportive
team or around the kid.
Dr. Amy Moore (14:16):
Yeah.
So you're the coach or theteacher or the favorite aunt or
a friend's parent.
Friends parent.
And this is revealed to you bythe teen that they are
self-harming.
And so your next step is to saysomething like, Thank you so
(14:36):
much for trusting me with thisor for sharing this with me.
We need to talk to your mom nowor your dad now.
Like, how do you make thattransition in a way that shows I
want to help?
I see.
Stacy Schaffer (14:54):
I often give choices in scenarios like that.
Sometimes the bullying issue,like, is a similar way of how I
handle it.
That I say, okay, here's theoptions.
I can talk to mom without you.
I can have a chat.
Here's some of the things thatare gonna come out of my mouth
if that's the one that youchoose.
(15:14):
We can bring in mom together,can call mom, we can all talk
together.
Or I can trust that you willand I will follow up in 24 hours
just to make sure thateverything went okay in the
conversation.
And so that it's I'm sure likethe advice when you're when the
(15:35):
kids are really little, whichpajamas do you want?
It's like a it's the teenversion of that.
That you're like it it's like anon-negotiable, but the
language that I use doesn't saythat, but it is it's a
non-negotiable and it gives themsome power and control by
choosing how they how thatinformation is revealed to the
(15:58):
parent.
Yes, and I would say in thosekind of scenarios, most of the
time kids pick the I'll be here,you talk to my mom.
And so they're like, I don'tknow what to say.
Because I think for a lot ofissues, kids are like, I don't
have the language to tocommunicate exactly.
They're gonna say why, and I'mgonna say, I don't know.
(16:20):
And so we talk through a planof okay, here's here's how I
think that the conversationshould go.
Is there anything you want tomake sure that I don't miss?
And so they'll say, I don'twant them to think I'm crazy.
I don't want them to think.
And so I'm like, we can controlwhat we can.
(16:42):
We're not in charge of likemom's reaction, but we're in
charge of communicating.
Dr. Amy Moore (16:48):
Yeah.
So when I train life coaches onhow to be a non-anxious
presence in a conversation, Ialways remind them that we have
to have a posture that sh thatsays, nothing you say can rattle
me.
We can't look like we can'thandle what this person is
(17:15):
telling us.
So like you have to be a duckon the water, super calm, even
though you're pedalingfrantically underneath.
What do I do?
How do I say this?
What do I do next?
And so I think that I wouldgive that same advice to the
teacher, the coach, the bestfriend's mom, the favorite aunt,
whoever this teen is revealingtheir self-harm to, is that we
(17:38):
then have to have this just softfacial expression and
non-threatening body posture andopenness to hear whatever it is
that they have to say withoutreacting in a way that says you
should feel shame.
Stacy Schaffer (17:55):
Yeah, I love the duck thing and I'm gonna steal
it.
Dr. Amy Moore (17:57):
Okay.
Stacy Schaffer (17:58):
Feel free.
That's no, yeah, exactly.
And pun intended, but to belike unflappable.
That you're just like, okay,like I I can hold whatever like
you put into my hands.
And so absolutely, yeah.
I think back to my ownchildhood, and I was, and I'm
like, my mom was too fragile tohandle so many things, so we
(18:22):
just didn't go there, and so Ikeep that in mind a lot when I'm
working with families.
Can they handle what I'm aboutto say?
And oftentimes it's yes,because I have so much respect
for parents who bring their kidsto counseling.
Like, we're already like opento an extent, but I think, yeah,
(18:42):
that's a beautiful way to lookat it.
Can they hold it?
Dr. Amy Moore (18:47):
Yeah, I was looking, you have a list of
lessons that you've learned, andI feel oh yeah, you say be
genuinely approachable.
If a child can alreadyanticipate a negative reaction,
whether factual or not, they areless likely to disclose much of
anything.
And so that would be true thenonce we get to the step of
(19:10):
sharing with the parent.
Sure.
Like that parent needs to becompletely approachable and open
to whatever is gonna come outof that child's mouth next.
Stacy Schaffer (19:20):
Yeah, I like I'm remembering like so many times
that kids like that there'sanother child that a parent will
want them to stay away from forprobably good reason, like not
the greatest influence, and thensomething happens when they go
behind the parents' back and dowith this kid, and they are for
then doubly afraid to be likethis thing happened with this
(19:44):
person that you told me to stayaway from, and and obviously you
what you wanted them to stayaway from the kid for because
exhibit A, but I think that thekids that are like my parent is
going to be pleased that I cameto them anyway, those kids like
fare better, and it doesn't meanlike that there shouldn't be
(20:07):
consequences because I'm likeconsequences are important,
boundaries are important, but Ithink that if they believe that
your first reaction is gonna belike, thank you for telling me
that had to be really hardbecause you know that I told you
to stay away from Chloe, andChloe's I didn't know, but if
they believe that it'll be likeextra hard because of that,
(20:32):
they're not gonna talk to you,yeah, they're not.
Dr. Amy Moore (20:36):
Yeah.
All right, so here we are.
You're the parent, you haveadopted this parenting value
that says, I'm going to be opento all possibilities, everything
that comes out of my child'smouth.
I'm I'm going to respond withcompassion and empathy.
(20:58):
So my child always feelsaccepted and loved
unconditionally.
What is the next step?
What does that parent need tosay and do once the teen or
child has revealed to them thatthey are self-harming?
Stacy Schaffer (21:16):
I would say that it is always a good idea to
have some kind of plan thatdoesn't have to be super rigid,
but to be like, okay, here'swhat we're going to do moving
forward.
Right.
Like where we are going to tellStacy, we are going to have
some kind of conversation.
(21:37):
I am going to do more researchbecause I don't know anything
about this.
Those kind of things.
So you're like, we're going tofigure this out together.
Everything is figure outable.
Oh, you know what?
Why?
Dr. Amy Moore (21:51):
I have that sign.
Stacy Schaffer (21:53):
Oh my gosh.
Dr. Amy Moore (21:54):
Everything is figure outable.
Stacy Schaffer (21:57):
I love that saying.
And it looks like you do aswell.
Yeah, I love that because it'slike nothing is too big.
Yeah.
And so I think also owning,like if you don't, if you don't,
if it's completely a foreignconcept to you, to own that, I
think it's so powerful to belike, I don't know what to do,
but we're gonna we're gonnafigure it out.
(22:18):
We're gonna figure it outtogether.
You're not alone in this.
Because I think that self-harmcan feel really lonely.
Yeah.
They're doing that in thequieter of their own room, and
they're in pain on lots oflevels.
And so I think it's lonely.
And so to say, you're not alonein this anymore.
And I think if I wrote aboutit, I think it's really
(22:41):
important that we try toseparate like discipline and
punishment from self-harmaddiction because that's also
what's gonna keep kids quiet.
Is like my mom said that Iwould be grounded if I got
caught again, and it's they'renot misbehaving at you, they're
(23:03):
in pain that is manifesting onthemselves, so it's different,
but I also know that parents alot of times feel powerless.
I don't know what will stop it.
If I take away the Xbox, maybeit'll stop, and so it's tricky.
Dr. Amy Moore (23:17):
Yeah, so uh two things that you just said in
that paragraph.
One you called self-harm anaddiction, and two, you said we
have to separate the idea ofimposing consequences from this
addiction.
(23:38):
And so talk a little bit moreabout how it's addiction, how
does it become an addiction?
Why is it considered anaddiction?
Stacy Schaffer (23:48):
Yeah, I think that the cutting issue and the
burning, I think that it hasbecome bigger because of the
fact that kids know that otherkids are doing it.
And so sometimes that that canbe really like an addictive
quality to be like, oh, I'm inthis group.
But I've seen over the yearskids, they're like, I am loudly,
(24:15):
they don't say this, but I amloudly trying to express how
much pain that I'm in.
And so that like every time itevery time I cut, it's another
example of just how much agonyI'm in, and I need you to see
that.
And so I think a lot of timeswhen they look down at this,
they're like, Yeah, that that islike how I feel.
(24:38):
And I think that it somehowwe'll have to I'll have to look
up the scientific like researchon it, but somehow, like every
time they do it, like it isexpressing some sense of relief
of I was able to get it out, andnow I can focus on this pain
(25:00):
because this hurts, but I knowwhat to do with this pain.
This is familiar.
I don't know how to say I'mhaving an existential crisis.
Dr. Amy Moore (25:12):
So you're so there you're absolutely
substituting the emotional painfor a physical pain.
Stacy Schaffer (25:19):
Yes, 100%.
Okay, 100%.
And then yeah, they're like,that makes sense why I'm in pain
because I'm bleeding.
Dr. Amy Moore (25:28):
Yeah.
So then that must then becomepart of that dopamine reward
pathway satisfaction that we seein all addictive behaviors.
And my guess would be it almosthas like an OCD-like quality to
(25:53):
it, right?
Where it's compulsive, like theurge to do it, and it can only
be relieved by actually doingit.
Yes, yes, I'd say that.
Stacy Schaffer (26:05):
There's a new product on the market that
actually I'm probably gonna lookinto getting, but they're so
I'm this is not sponsored.
I like don't even have one yet,but they're called ouchies, and
they're like a fidget.
A couple kids have brought themin to show me.
They're like a fidget that kindof it gives a little spike of
(26:25):
pain, but it's not hurting you,and it was created to help with
the self-harm problem becauselike it's doing some of the same
things, except like you're notscarring your body.
And first of all, I think it'sgenius.
Second of all, I think it justtells you how widespread of a
(26:47):
problem if there is an entirecompany that is basing their
product on a response to peopleneeding help with self-harm.
And so I think that there'sdifferent levels of the spectrum
of self-harm too, right?
Like I have some kids that'lljust pick at their nails, pick
(27:07):
at their nails, pick at theirnails, like to your OCD comment.
And it somehow that compulsionis like helpful to them until
they realize they're bleeding.
Dr. Amy Moore (27:18):
Yeah, and so this out, ouchie, is that what you
called it?
They're called ouchies.
So, really, again, that's asubstitution.
So instead of substituting harmto your body, you're still able
to experience a little bit ofpain that doesn't harm your
(27:40):
body, but could give you thatsame release by substituting the
emotional pain for a physicalpain that you're trying to
achieve, but without harmingyour actual body.
It is genius.
Stacy Schaffer (27:52):
Yes.
And something that I'verecommended to kids that my
clients at self-harm, I alwayshave them carry a pack of lemon
heads, the candy, becausethere's there was some study
about if you bite into a lemonhead, like it does something
similar to your body, is therelease of like self-harm.
(28:13):
And they're like, What?
My assignment is to go getcandy.
I'm like, go get candy.
Dr. Amy Moore (28:18):
That's an extreme sensory experience.
Lemon heads are so sour.
That is like the far end of thesour spectrum, right?
That's an extreme sensoryexperience, like holding a nice
cube or walking barefoot in thesnow or any of those things that
we encourage people to do toreset their nervous system.
(28:39):
And so that's yet another,okay.
I'm gonna experience thissensory experience rather than
the one that's scarring my body.
Stacy Schaffer (28:48):
So I've told kids like if you can find a
distraction and come up withlots of options, find a
distraction for 15 minutes, thatdesire will pass.
Your brain can't like hold thatmuch intensity for that long.
So I need you to like choosesome of these scoping skills for
(29:10):
15 minutes, and oftentimesthey're been distracted by the
distraction, and so it's longerthan that.
But I think what we need to dois to give kids support in
knowing the urgency and peoplein general, the urgency, it's
gonna pass.
(29:31):
It will.
Like I know that in this momentit feels like this is your
forever, but it's not.
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Dr. Amy Moore (30:23):
I am sure that there are many parents when they
find out that their child hasbeen self harming.
There are many parents that doreact in a way that ruptures
that relationship and they haveto do repair work.
And so I think we have to beempathetic to that plight,
(30:45):
right?
Yeah, you got it wrong.
And we get it because that'sshocking and scary and sometimes
unbelievable.
But then we have to come backinto play and say, all right,
let's figure this out together.
Stacy Schaffer (31:01):
Yeah, I think it's definitely scary.
I I the family that like allthe sharp things are still on
lockdown.
And the teenager is saying tome, like, I'm not in danger,
like anymore, like I don'tstruggle.
And I'm like, but your parentsare still scared.
And I was like, and for goodreason.
(31:22):
And so I think that there needsto be more dads.
So I said to her, there needsto be more data, like in a
longer amount of time than maybeyou think is necessary.
Sure.
You live within your body likethat you're as okay as you can
be, but your parents like stillsee that image in their head.
(31:44):
And so we have to be sensitiveto that, that they're in
recovery too.
That's just a painful thing tohave this baby that you love
like purposely hurtingthemselves.
That's so confusing.
Dr. Amy Moore (31:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you said somethinginteresting that the sharp
things were in lockdown.
What let's back up then, right?
So you're revealing yourself-harm, and then does the
parent then need to enact somesort of safety plan to remove
whatever the instrument ofself-harm is?
Stacy Schaffer (32:20):
I think so, but here's where it gets a little
tricky is that as we talkedabout, it's an addiction, right?
If a kid is determined toengage in self-harm, they're
gonna find something.
And so obviously you don't wantto say, yeah, you're gonna find
something like good luck, butjust to have awareness that just
(32:45):
because we're like locking upthe scissors and the knives, it
doesn't mean that they're notgoing to scratch themselves with
a pin.
And so I think, or findsomething at school, and so I
think that it is a tricky danceto parent the kid in front of
you as opposed to here's whatyou do with self-harm.
(33:06):
And but I think if it's gottento the point that the parent is
aware, like that's 10 stepsahead of the rest, instead of
just discovering that and thekid not wanting you to discover
it.
The kid's coming to you andsays, I need help, I don't know.
It's usually it gets revealedaccidentally that like parents,
(33:26):
what is that?
Um, and so I think that yeah,safety measures are great, but
also knowing that there needs tobe like more conversation
around it because if a parent'slike you can't self-harm anymore
because I took all of thesharps, kids gonna be like
actually sure.
Dr. Amy Moore (33:46):
If you can always find a way, but it seems like
you would want to create a safeenvironment anyway, yes, yeah.
Stacy Schaffer (33:57):
Oh, absolutely to say that, but to because I'm
all about the conversation,right?
And so I'm like, I think it'sconversation of we're gonna
remove these things like so thatyou're not tempted, but I'm
also aware, like that, likethere are different things that
you could find.
And I would just ask that youeither come to me, you write it
(34:18):
down, you save it for Stacey,you do a voice memo, something
to you for that urgency, ifyou're wanting to find something
outside of what we're trying tocreate here as a safe space.
Dr. Amy Moore (34:32):
Sure.
And then that's where thesubstitution comes in, right?
So if it if you as a parentmake it harder to access the
self-harm tools, then it gives alittle bit of space, right, for
your child or teen to say,okay, what can I do now?
What can I do instead?
Oh, that's right.
(34:52):
Stacy said, Hey, I've I neededto make a list of all of these
different things, perhapsextreme sensory experiences,
walking barefoot in the snow,holding an ice cube, sucking on
a sour lemon drop, to doinstead, to release that urge.
Stacy Schaffer (35:10):
Yeah, and to not like and not pretend that it
doesn't exist.
Yeah.
Because I think I've had a lotof kids try to say in that
strategy isn't effective.
I tell kids, you can't controlthe thoughts that come into your
head, but you can control whatyou do with them.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Yes.
Stacy Schaffer (35:26):
And I'd like you to stop shaming yourself for
having that desire when you'retrying so hard to not.
And I think I know I I wroteabout this in the book, but the
I am sober app I think is areally good one if it is used
wisely for a lot of you can useit for any addiction, but I'm a
fan of that app.
Dr. Amy Moore (35:48):
Yeah, and I think you've mentioned that some
teens resist using it becausethey're afraid that their
parents will see that okay, Idid self-harm if the parents are
also monitoring the app.
What are your thoughts on that?
Stacy Schaffer (36:05):
Yeah, I so I feel like yeah, that it isn't
for everyone.
Some kids have not wanted toeven download it because they're
like, they're like, I don'twant my parent to worry.
But I think that it's a maybe asmaller population of kids that
are like, I need help.
My parent knows I need help.
My parent also is not going tocheck my app, that particular
(36:26):
app, and have the trust there,and because it is a diary, and
so I think it just it depends onthe dynamic at home.
If it's something where you'relike, no, I think I need to
monitor what my kid's doing,they're probably not going to be
honest in that particular app.
But I think for the kids thatit does work for, it's really
(36:47):
like neat to say, look, I have17 days of sobriety.
And in certain situations, Ithink it could help, but it's
not for everyone.
Sure.
And do you use that language?
Sobriety?
Oh, yeah.
unknown (37:01):
Okay.
Yeah.
Stacy Schaffer (37:02):
I'm like, I say a lot of words, Doctor.
And what word are you talkingabout?
Yes.
Yeah, so like sobriety fromthat, and the kids use that
because as we talked aboutbefore, they've got some
language.
Sure.
And yeah, and I think that'ssomething to be really proud of.
But also, there are some kidsthat don't want to use something
(37:24):
like that because they likethey're like, I'm gonna feel bad
if I like stumble and then haveto start over.
So I like it's not magic, but Ithink for some kids that are
already on a path of I reallydon't want this to be part of my
future story anymore, I thinkit can be helpful.
Dr. Amy Moore (37:44):
Sure.
I'm not sure if you know theanswer to this, but I'm just
gonna bring it up anyway.
Is this so do kids whoself-harm start with harm OCD
that then progresses to actualphysical harm?
Or are those two separateentities where in harm OCD you
(38:08):
just have the urge to cutyourself, stab yourself, jump
off a cliff, but you don't wantto because it scares you so
much.
And so then you just sit inthis space of having these
obsessive, compulsive thoughts,feelings, and try not to have
behaviors.
And then does that progress forsome people into self-harm or
(38:33):
are those just separate?
Stacy Schaffer (38:35):
I tend to think that they're separate, like
there is likely some crossover,but I think they're separate.
My experience with kids that'sself-harm, there's not a ton of
pre-thought into it.
Okay, that it's more of a likean impulsive.
I saw this once.
(38:56):
I wrote about Ginny and Georgiaat the burning scene, and while
I think that was beautiful andpowerful and amazing, it did
give me pause because the kidsare watching, and that's a lot
of times how they learn aboutself-warm from everything that
we see, and so I think that thethought is like, oh, and then
(39:20):
they do it, and I don't thinkthat they journal about it or
spend time talking to anyoneabout it.
I think it's impulsive.
Okay, okay, but there there'slikely crossover about that.
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore (39:36):
All right.
So besides wearing clothes thatare not appropriate for the
season, right?
To try to cover that up, arethere any other warning signs
that parents should be aware of?
Stacy Schaffer (39:50):
Yeah, I mean, I think that the like a lot of
times kids can be like youthey're not as sneaky as they
think they are, but I think Iwould pay attention.
I have a kid that wears likebracelets all up and down.
And I think just that just haveawareness of of it the kid in
front of you.
Because I hesitate to saygeneral warning signs because I
(40:16):
know that a lot of we talked inour earlier conversation about
the shiny kids that like youwouldn't know that things are
going on.
And so I think that there aresome things that are maybe
universal, like the clothingthing or the one-word answer
being secretive thing.
But I think it really does comedown to knowing the the kid you
(40:40):
have and to see what is what doI know of this kid that's
baseline and what seems like alittle off.
And I'm a big fan of having allthe kinds of conversations
before they're an issue.
About self-harm?
Depending on the kid, I thinkthat you don't you're not gonna
(41:02):
give your kid ideas that theydidn't have, but to say if
you're ever feeling like you'rereally hurting and you don't
know what to do, I don'tnecessarily like as a parent,
like I don't necessarily havethe answers, but I never want
you to be in a place where youfeel trapped and you don't know
what to do.
(41:22):
And so, like more along thelines of that, of that you're
not alone in whatever it isyou're struggling with.
I'm not gonna leave you alone.
Dr. Amy Moore (41:33):
I love that, and I think you make a good point
too of saying we need to besupportive, but saying things
like, I was a kid once too, or Idealt with something like that
when I was a teen is nothelpful, right?
Because it's a differentgeneration and a different time,
(41:54):
and it's a different person,and it takes the focus away from
your child when you put it onyourself.
Stacy Schaffer (42:03):
Yeah, and I think a lot of that is due that
we're just living in a differenttime than the parents'
childhoods of the kids thatthey're raising, they're
different childhoods like the80s and the 90s, different
childhoods.
And so when a parent says to akid, yeah, I had overprotective
parents, and so I was a kid, andso I know what that feels like.
(42:23):
And the kid will say to me,Okay, they're overprotective,
but you're like out running inthe neighborhood until like
dusk, and you aren't monitoredby all people at all times, so
that alone is different.
There's just so many differentvariables that it that there is
some connection.
(42:43):
We were all we all had to domiddle school and we all
successfully spread middleschool, but we all had to do
middle school, but we I don'tknow what that's like to have my
friends be able to monitor myevery move.
Like they track each other,it's insane.
I'm like, I don't my friendsdon't need to know where I am at
all times, and I think thatwould just make me feel a
(43:05):
certain way, and so I don't knowwhat it would be like to have
that kind of childhood, but Iwant to hear what your childhood
is like.
Dr. Amy Moore (43:13):
Yes, there's a book called Parent the Child You
Have, Not the Child You Were.
Stacy Schaffer (43:17):
Oh, I love that.
Dr. Amy Moore (43:18):
Yeah, it just reminds me of that.
Okay.
This has been a greatconversation.
I knew it would be a greatconversation because you're
amazing, and so I'm so thankfulthat you came back and gave us
another hour of your time andwisdom.
So thank you, Stacy, for beingwith us.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah.
So, listeners, if you missedpart one, we'll put a link to
(43:41):
that in the show notes to thisepisode so that you can hear all
of Stacy's wisdom that she hasshared with all of us.
Stacy, how can our listenersfind more from you?
Stacy Schaffer (43:52):
So, my my publishers made me a website
called authorsstacyschafer.com.
And I'm guessing it'll be inthe notes because there's lots
of ways to misspell my name.
Yeah.
And there's information aboutmy book, and there's also a
contact me form that goesdirectly to me.
And so if you wanted to shoot amessage that way, but it the
(44:14):
website tells about my book andit gives links to like Amazon,
Audible, Spotify.
Yeah.
And the name of your book isWith Love from a Children's
Therapist.
Hashtag lessons I've learnedalong the way.
Dr. Amy Moore (44:27):
I love it.
I love it.
Stacy, thanks so much for beingwith us.
Stacy Schaffer (44:31):
Thank you for having me.
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore (44:33):
Listeners, thanks for being with us today, too.
If you want more from us, youcan find us at theBrainyMoms.com
or on social media at theBrainy Moms.
If you love us, please leave usa five-star rating and review
on Apple Podcasts, especiallybecause someone gave us a one
star with no comment, bringingour average down to 4.9 instead
of 5.0.
(44:54):
And so we want to get that backup for sure.
So, listeners, I hope you feela little bit smarter after
spending this hour with us.
We'll catch you next time.
Hi, smart moms and dads.
Welcome back to another episodeof the Brainy Moms Podcast
brought to you today by LearningRX Brain Training Centers.
I'm Dr.
Amy Moore, and I am here withmy friend and returning guest,
Stacy Schaefer.
I'm so excited that Stacy hasagreed to come back for part two
of this conversationspecifically around child and
(00:51):
teen mental health.
Let me tell you a little bitabout Stacy in case you missed
part one.
So Stacy is a licensedprofessional counselor with over
20 years of experience helpingchildren, teens, and young
adults navigate emotional andbehavioral challenges.
She is right down the road fromme in Arvada, Colorado.
She's the founder and directorof Stacy Schaefer Counseling,
(01:13):
and she specializes in bothgrief therapy and synergetic
play therapy.
So she's got extensivetraining.
She's got a master's degree inprofessional counseling, a
graduate diploma in Christiancounseling, and she's certified
in EMDR and Synergetic PlayTherapy.
So I'm super excited.
Welcome back, Stacy.
(01:34):
Thank you.
Thank you for having me.
I'm excited to be back.
This is really fun.
Yeah, we had such a greatconversation and it we had to
hard stop, right?
You had a client and I wasn'tdone talking to you.
So glad that I wasn't donetalking.
That's amazing.
So I want to focus today onself-harm, non-suicidal
(01:56):
self-harm, this trend that wehave been seeing over the last
few years, probably fueled bysome social media as well.
But it's it's a real issue.
And not every therapist isequipped or experienced enough
(02:17):
with kids and teens who areharming themselves to handle it
in a gentle, appropriate way andto be able to coach the parents
on their role in helpinghealing.
So let's talk about that today.
Stacy Schaffer (02:32):
The self-harm issue is really hard and
increasingly so, with theonslaught of being able to
access like the internet and seethings, same thing is an
addiction that is easilytriggered by like a visual.
And so kids report that hasbeen really hard if they're
(02:55):
trying to be in recovery fromself-harm and then they're
scrolling and they seesomething.
So my understanding is thatInstagram has done a better job
at censoring some of that.
And so I appreciate that a loton behalf of the kids.
But yeah, I see so muchself-harm for sure.
(03:17):
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore (03:19):
Okay, so I think that there is a lot of shame
around it, and I for not onlythe child, but the parent too.
So I think so much of it ishidden and not talked about and
not brought out into the openbecause as parents, you may feel
(03:39):
like you have failed in someway, or you respond with anger
and consequences because you areshocked and scared, as opposed
to responding with care andcompassion.
And so I think that would be agreat focus today.
Stacy Schaffer (03:59):
Yeah, I think for sure, because I think when
lots of things go wrong with ourkids, like we go internally and
they're like, What have I done?
Like, I mess everything up.
Instead of starting first, kidsare living in this fallen world
with us, and so let's startthere instead as opposed to
there's something that you did.
(04:20):
But I think that it makessense.
It's painful to see this childthat you love like literally
hurting to see like actualevidence of their pain, and
which is like ironically part ofthe addiction.
They're like, I can'tcommunicate it well enough, so
let me use my body as canvas.
(04:42):
And so it I think it's a reallyhard one because I don't think
I don't think that we see it inthe way that they do.
You're hurting yourself andthey're like, but I'm trying to
feel better.
They're like, but that doesn'tlook better.
I've seen a lot of kids engagedin self-harm over the years.
(05:07):
I think it's interesting inthis past year.
When I've seen it before, butI've seen it a lot this year,
and I don't know why, is a lotof regret for kids who are no
longer struggling with thataddiction, but the scars remain.
And so show me things, andthey're like, I can't hide, I
(05:28):
don't have a problem anymore,but I can't hide it.
And so what do I do?
And so we talked aboutstrategies like for the future.
Once they're an adult, theywant to get like tattoos to
cover things, but it fuels theconversation for me for the kids
(05:48):
that are currently strugglingto be like, I just want to make
you aware that like there couldbe challenges with this down the
line because like kids just seein front of their face to be
like you might be wanting a jobinterview, and it's really hot
(06:09):
outside, and that could pose aproblem if this continues, yeah,
and I feel that's not the magicanswer, but like that's I think
a really important line ofcommunication to have with our
kids.
Of this, it's not gonna fade.
What you're doing is not gonnafade, and people without your
(06:30):
permission are going to knowabout what you struggle with,
yeah, but that has to land withconflict, right?
Dr. Amy Moore (06:41):
Teenagers are thinking about the here and now,
and they don't necessarily havethat future-oriented mindset.
And so how do you gently how doyou gently share?
Hey, this could be somethingthat will challenge you later in
a way that doesn't say, oh mygod, you're gonna regret this.
Stacy Schaffer (07:02):
I think it comes down to speaking to their
values, like things like prom,like homecoming, going to the
beach with your family, stuffthat like you you think was
happening for them to be like,hey, this is just up and coming.
It's it is your body, likeyou're ready to do what you want
(07:22):
with your body, just want tobring to your awareness.
And sometimes I'll say to kids,I've had kids like really
regret this, and they're like,You have?
Because I think they also wantto do what their peers are
doing.
So a lot of times kids will askme, Do you have any other kids
that struggle with this?
I'm like, Yeah, and so I don'tI don't think that's like
(07:45):
necessarily the thing that'sgonna turn their desire, but I
think it's gonna play into seedin their head of yeah, I do want
to go to prom and you don'twear long sleeves to prom.
And so I think it's speaking towhat they're into if they're
like their sport shows like acertain part of their play
(08:06):
soccer and they're cutting ontheir legs, that kind of thing.
I think it's just another lineof communication.
Dr. Amy Moore (08:11):
Yeah.
So I feel like we jumped in themiddle of the conversation.
So for our listeners, can westart at the beginning and just
talk a little bit about what dowe mean by non-suicidal
self-harm?
What are those behaviors?
Let's just talk from thebeginning.
Sure.
Stacy Schaffer (08:29):
Okay.
I like that we're now callingself-harm non-suicidal
self-injury, because I think oldschool, we used to think that
if you saw a kid cutting, thatmeant that they were trying to
die by suicide.
And we have discovered that itthat is not the case.
There is, there can be somecorrelation, but that it's not a
(08:50):
direct one.
That there is some in the Venndiagram.
And so self-harm is somethingthat oftentimes kids who are
really hurting and are having ahard time expressing that
they're really hurting, thatthey will harm themselves.
And the research shows thatit's not only like releases like
(09:14):
chemicals in their brain thatdoes actually make them feel
better, but it's a way ofexpressing.
I can't tell you exactly howbad my heart is hurting, but I
can show you.
And so it's like they're like,I know how to cope with this
pain, I know how to cope withthis blood, this like whatever,
I know how to cope with this, Idon't know how to cope with the
(09:36):
internal psychic pain.
Dr. Amy Moore (09:39):
So I don't know if you know the answer to this
question, but how do we knowthat the brain releases
feel-good chemicals in responseto cutting or burning?
How do we know?
Because we're not doing arandomized control trial to see
that's not ethical.
(10:00):
Let's not put you in a PET scanwhile you harm yourself.
How do we know?
Just behaviorally.
Stacy Schaffer (10:07):
I do believe there has been some research of
people smarter than I have ofwhat kind of happens in the
brain, and we can find like thatresearch.
But I think it's I don't thinkit's like super complicated.
I think it's just it like theyget like a hit in the same way
like when you scroll, that youget like a hit.
So I don't think that it'ssuper complex.
(10:29):
I just think that somethinghappens either like an
adrenaline rush or like justdopamine flooding.
I don't know.
Okay, but I do know for surethat there has been research on
it.
Dr. Amy Moore (10:44):
So you say that kids who self-harm can't express
the pain that they're feeling.
Either they've experienced atraumatic event or they're
having a difficult time dealingwith typical stress stressors in
child and adolescence.
(11:06):
Walk me through what theprofile of kids and teens who
self-harm.
What's the typical profile?
Stacy Schaffer (11:16):
I would say a typical profile could be a kid
that is more withdrawn.
And we know a lot of timestweens and teens they start to
communicate less, like to theirfamily, so it's not everybody,
but that start to be a littlebit secretive.
And I think a lot of them tryreally hard to win it for first
(11:39):
starts to cover.
And so if you're seeinginappropriate like clothing to
the season, sometimes that's athing.
Like it gets really hot here,and I've seen kids that engage
in self-harm wear hoodies likeall summer, and that alone isn't
like an alarm bell, just sowe're clear, because some kids
(12:01):
like hoodies and kids, likewhatever, but they're like
they're clearly like trying tohide what is happening.
I think that kids that don'tnecessarily have someone to
communicate with outside oftheir family.
If there's if there's a coach,if there's therapist, if there's
(12:25):
someone, usually those are thepeople that a kid is gonna
confide in first if they if theydo share about self-harm.
So I think it's reallyimportant.
I like it's my lifetime soapboxthat kids need to have adults
who care about them outside oftheir family that are safe.
And so oftentimes they might dothe first reveal to them.
Dr. Amy Moore (12:49):
Yeah, absolutely.
So then what should that adultdo?
How should that adult react tothat reveal?
Stacy Schaffer (12:59):
Yeah, I and so self-harm is a really tricky
one.
It's a really tricky onebecause you want to like
maintain like theconfidentiality of a kid and
their freedom and being able totalk to you, however, like that
does lend itself into theviolations of confidentiality
because like they are hurtingthemselves, and I think that it
(13:24):
really is a requirement tocommunicate to the parents as
much as I think that's reallyhard for kids that are like I
think like I I thought I couldtell you everything, and you you
can, but my job is to ep safe.
But in in my particularcontext, oftentimes it's not I'm
not the first reveal, like byby the time they get to me, so I
(13:46):
don't have to do that a lotbecause there it is already a
known issue.
Um, if the issue escalates,then we communicate more.
But I think that's for anyadults listening, like that's
it's too big to hold byyourself.
And whether you're the parentor the coach or the favorite
aunt, that it's too big to holdalone, even as an adult, in my
(14:10):
opinion, that there needs to beat least some kind of supportive
team or around the kid.
Dr. Amy Moore (14:16):
Yeah.
So you're the coach or theteacher or the favorite aunt or
a friend's parent.
Friends parent.
And this is revealed to you bythe teen that they are
self-harming.
And so your next step is to saysomething like, Thank you so
(14:36):
much for trusting me with thisor for sharing this with me.
We need to talk to your mom nowor your dad now.
Like, how do you make thattransition in a way that shows I
want to help?
I see.
Stacy Schaffer (14:54):
I often give choices in scenarios like that.
Sometimes the bullying issue,like, is a similar way of how I
handle it.
That I say, okay, here's theoptions.
I can talk to mom without you.
I can have a chat.
Here's some of the things thatare gonna come out of my mouth
if that's the one that youchoose.
(15:14):
We can bring in mom together,can call mom, we can all talk
together.
Or I can trust that you willand I will follow up in 24 hours
just to make sure thateverything went okay in the
conversation.
And so that it's I'm sure likethe advice when you're when the
(15:35):
kids are really little, whichpajamas do you want?
It's like a it's the teenversion of that.
That you're like it it's like anon-negotiable, but the
language that I use doesn't saythat, but it is it's a
non-negotiable and it gives themsome power and control by
choosing how they how thatinformation is revealed to the
(15:58):
parent.
Yes, and I would say in thosekind of scenarios, most of the
time kids pick the I'll be here,you talk to my mom.
And so they're like, I don'tknow what to say.
Because I think for a lot ofissues, kids are like, I don't
have the language to tocommunicate exactly.
They're gonna say why, and I'mgonna say, I don't know.
(16:20):
And so we talk through a planof okay, here's here's how I
think that the conversationshould go.
Is there anything you want tomake sure that I don't miss?
And so they'll say, I don'twant them to think I'm crazy.
I don't want them to think.
And so I'm like, we can controlwhat we can.
(16:42):
We're not in charge of likemom's reaction, but we're in
charge of communicating.
Dr. Amy Moore (16:48):
Yeah.
So when I train life coaches onhow to be a non-anxious
presence in a conversation, Ialways remind them that we have
to have a posture that sh thatsays, nothing you say can rattle
me.
We can't look like we can'thandle what this person is
(17:15):
telling us.
So like you have to be a duckon the water, super calm, even
though you're pedalingfrantically underneath.
What do I do?
How do I say this?
What do I do next?
And so I think that I wouldgive that same advice to the
teacher, the coach, the bestfriend's mom, the favorite aunt,
whoever this teen is revealingtheir self-harm to, is that we
(17:38):
then have to have this just softfacial expression and
non-threatening body posture andopenness to hear whatever it is
that they have to say withoutreacting in a way that says you
should feel shame.
Stacy Schaffer (17:55):
Yeah, I love the duck thing and I'm gonna steal
it.
Dr. Amy Moore (17:57):
Okay.
Stacy Schaffer (17:58):
Feel free.
That's no, yeah, exactly.
And pun intended, but to belike unflappable.
That you're just like, okay,like I I can hold whatever like
you put into my hands.
And so absolutely, yeah.
I think back to my ownchildhood, and I was, and I'm
like, my mom was too fragile tohandle so many things, so we
(18:22):
just didn't go there, and so Ikeep that in mind a lot when I'm
working with families.
Can they handle what I'm aboutto say?
And oftentimes it's yes,because I have so much respect
for parents who bring their kidsto counseling.
Like, we're already like opento an extent, but I think, yeah,
(18:42):
that's a beautiful way to lookat it.
Can they hold it?
Dr. Amy Moore (18:47):
Yeah, I was looking, you have a list of
lessons that you've learned, andI feel oh yeah, you say be
genuinely approachable.
If a child can alreadyanticipate a negative reaction,
whether factual or not, they areless likely to disclose much of
anything.
And so that would be true thenonce we get to the step of
(19:10):
sharing with the parent.
Sure.
Like that parent needs to becompletely approachable and open
to whatever is gonna come outof that child's mouth next.
Stacy Schaffer (19:20):
Yeah, I like I'm remembering like so many times
that kids like that there'sanother child that a parent will
want them to stay away from forprobably good reason, like not
the greatest influence, and thensomething happens when they go
behind the parents' back and dowith this kid, and they are for
then doubly afraid to be likethis thing happened with this
(19:44):
person that you told me to stayaway from, and and obviously you
what you wanted them to stayaway from the kid for because
exhibit A, but I think that thekids that are like my parent is
going to be pleased that I cameto them anyway, those kids like
fare better, and it doesn't meanlike that there shouldn't be
(20:07):
consequences because I'm likeconsequences are important,
boundaries are important, but Ithink that if they believe that
your first reaction is gonna belike, thank you for telling me
that had to be really hardbecause you know that I told you
to stay away from Chloe, andChloe's I didn't know, but if
they believe that it'll be likeextra hard because of that,
(20:32):
they're not gonna talk to you,yeah, they're not.
Dr. Amy Moore (20:36):
Yeah.
All right, so here we are.
You're the parent, you haveadopted this parenting value
that says, I'm going to be opento all possibilities, everything
that comes out of my child'smouth.
I'm I'm going to respond withcompassion and empathy.
(20:58):
So my child always feelsaccepted and loved
unconditionally.
What is the next step?
What does that parent need tosay and do once the teen or
child has revealed to them thatthey are self-harming?
Stacy Schaffer (21:16):
I would say that it is always a good idea to
have some kind of plan thatdoesn't have to be super rigid,
but to be like, okay, here'swhat we're going to do moving
forward.
Right.
Like where we are going to tellStacy, we are going to have
some kind of conversation.
(21:37):
I am going to do more researchbecause I don't know anything
about this.
Those kind of things.
So you're like, we're going tofigure this out together.
Everything is figure outable.
Oh, you know what?
Why?
Dr. Amy Moore (21:51):
I have that sign.
Stacy Schaffer (21:53):
Oh my gosh.
Dr. Amy Moore (21:54):
Everything is figure outable.
Stacy Schaffer (21:57):
I love that saying.
And it looks like you do aswell.
Yeah, I love that because it'slike nothing is too big.
Yeah.
And so I think also owning,like if you don't, if you don't,
if it's completely a foreignconcept to you, to own that, I
think it's so powerful to belike, I don't know what to do,
but we're gonna we're gonnafigure it out.
(22:18):
We're gonna figure it outtogether.
You're not alone in this.
Because I think that self-harmcan feel really lonely.
Yeah.
They're doing that in thequieter of their own room, and
they're in pain on lots oflevels.
And so I think it's lonely.
And so to say, you're not alonein this anymore.
And I think if I wrote aboutit, I think it's really
(22:41):
important that we try toseparate like discipline and
punishment from self-harmaddiction because that's also
what's gonna keep kids quiet.
Is like my mom said that Iwould be grounded if I got
caught again, and it's they'renot misbehaving at you, they're
(23:03):
in pain that is manifesting onthemselves, so it's different,
but I also know that parents alot of times feel powerless.
I don't know what will stop it.
If I take away the Xbox, maybeit'll stop, and so it's tricky.
Dr. Amy Moore (23:17):
Yeah, so uh two things that you just said in
that paragraph.
One you called self-harm anaddiction, and two, you said we
have to separate the idea ofimposing consequences from this
addiction.
(23:38):
And so talk a little bit moreabout how it's addiction, how
does it become an addiction?
Why is it considered anaddiction?
Stacy Schaffer (23:48):
Yeah, I think that the cutting issue and the
burning, I think that it hasbecome bigger because of the
fact that kids know that otherkids are doing it.
And so sometimes that that canbe really like an addictive
quality to be like, oh, I'm inthis group.
But I've seen over the yearskids, they're like, I am loudly,
(24:15):
they don't say this, but I amloudly trying to express how
much pain that I'm in.
And so that like every time itevery time I cut, it's another
example of just how much agonyI'm in, and I need you to see
that.
And so I think a lot of timeswhen they look down at this,
they're like, Yeah, that that islike how I feel.
(24:38):
And I think that it somehowwe'll have to I'll have to look
up the scientific like researchon it, but somehow, like every
time they do it, like it isexpressing some sense of relief
of I was able to get it out, andnow I can focus on this pain
(25:00):
because this hurts, but I knowwhat to do with this pain.
This is familiar.
I don't know how to say I'mhaving an existential crisis.
Dr. Amy Moore (25:12):
So you're so there you're absolutely
substituting the emotional painfor a physical pain.
Stacy Schaffer (25:19):
Yes, 100%.
Okay, 100%.
And then yeah, they're like,that makes sense why I'm in pain
because I'm bleeding.
Dr. Amy Moore (25:28):
Yeah.
So then that must then becomepart of that dopamine reward
pathway satisfaction that we seein all addictive behaviors.
And my guess would be it almosthas like an OCD-like quality to
(25:53):
it, right?
Where it's compulsive, like theurge to do it, and it can only
be relieved by actually doingit.
Yes, yes, I'd say that.
Stacy Schaffer (26:05):
There's a new product on the market that
actually I'm probably gonna lookinto getting, but they're so
I'm this is not sponsored.
I like don't even have one yet,but they're called ouchies, and
they're like a fidget.
A couple kids have brought themin to show me.
They're like a fidget that kindof it gives a little spike of
(26:25):
pain, but it's not hurting you,and it was created to help with
the self-harm problem becauselike it's doing some of the same
things, except like you're notscarring your body.
And first of all, I think it'sgenius.
Second of all, I think it justtells you how widespread of a
(26:47):
problem if there is an entirecompany that is basing their
product on a response to peopleneeding help with self-harm.
And so I think that there'sdifferent levels of the spectrum
of self-harm too, right?
Like I have some kids that'lljust pick at their nails, pick
(27:07):
at their nails, pick at theirnails, like to your OCD comment.
And it somehow that compulsionis like helpful to them until
they realize they're bleeding.
Dr. Amy Moore (27:18):
Yeah, and so this out, ouchie, is that what you
called it?
They're called ouchies.
So, really, again, that's asubstitution.
So instead of substituting harmto your body, you're still able
to experience a little bit ofpain that doesn't harm your
(27:40):
body, but could give you thatsame release by substituting the
emotional pain for a physicalpain that you're trying to
achieve, but without harmingyour actual body.
It is genius.
Stacy Schaffer (27:52):
Yes.
And something that I'verecommended to kids that my
clients at self-harm, I alwayshave them carry a pack of lemon
heads, the candy, becausethere's there was some study
about if you bite into a lemonhead, like it does something
similar to your body, is therelease of like self-harm.
(28:13):
And they're like, What?
My assignment is to go getcandy.
I'm like, go get candy.
Dr. Amy Moore (28:18):
That's an extreme sensory experience.
Lemon heads are so sour.
That is like the far end of thesour spectrum, right?
That's an extreme sensoryexperience, like holding a nice
cube or walking barefoot in thesnow or any of those things that
we encourage people to do toreset their nervous system.
(28:39):
And so that's yet another,okay.
I'm gonna experience thissensory experience rather than
the one that's scarring my body.
Stacy Schaffer (28:48):
So I've told kids like if you can find a
distraction and come up withlots of options, find a
distraction for 15 minutes, thatdesire will pass.
Your brain can't like hold thatmuch intensity for that long.
So I need you to like choosesome of these scoping skills for
(29:10):
15 minutes, and oftentimesthey're been distracted by the
distraction, and so it's longerthan that.
But I think what we need to dois to give kids support in
knowing the urgency and peoplein general, the urgency, it's
gonna pass.
(29:31):
It will.
Like I know that in this momentit feels like this is your
forever, but it's not.
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Dr. Amy Moore (30:23):
I am sure that there are many parents when they
find out that their child hasbeen self harming.
There are many parents that doreact in a way that ruptures
that relationship and they haveto do repair work.
And so I think we have to beempathetic to that plight,
(30:45):
right?
Yeah, you got it wrong.
And we get it because that'sshocking and scary and sometimes
unbelievable.
But then we have to come backinto play and say, all right,
let's figure this out together.
Stacy Schaffer (31:01):
Yeah, I think it's definitely scary.
I I the family that like allthe sharp things are still on
lockdown.
And the teenager is saying tome, like, I'm not in danger,
like anymore, like I don'tstruggle.
And I'm like, but your parentsare still scared.
And I was like, and for goodreason.
(31:22):
And so I think that there needsto be more dads.
So I said to her, there needsto be more data, like in a
longer amount of time than maybeyou think is necessary.
Sure.
You live within your body likethat you're as okay as you can
be, but your parents like stillsee that image in their head.
(31:44):
And so we have to be sensitiveto that, that they're in
recovery too.
That's just a painful thing tohave this baby that you love
like purposely hurtingthemselves.
That's so confusing.
Dr. Amy Moore (31:58):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So you said somethinginteresting that the sharp
things were in lockdown.
What let's back up then, right?
So you're revealing yourself-harm, and then does the
parent then need to enact somesort of safety plan to remove
whatever the instrument ofself-harm is?
Stacy Schaffer (32:20):
I think so, but here's where it gets a little
tricky is that as we talkedabout, it's an addiction, right?
If a kid is determined toengage in self-harm, they're
gonna find something.
And so obviously you don't wantto say, yeah, you're gonna find
something like good luck, butjust to have awareness that just
(32:45):
because we're like locking upthe scissors and the knives, it
doesn't mean that they're notgoing to scratch themselves with
a pin.
And so I think, or findsomething at school, and so I
think that it is a tricky danceto parent the kid in front of
you as opposed to here's whatyou do with self-harm.
(33:06):
And but I think if it's gottento the point that the parent is
aware, like that's 10 stepsahead of the rest, instead of
just discovering that and thekid not wanting you to discover
it.
The kid's coming to you andsays, I need help, I don't know.
It's usually it gets revealedaccidentally that like parents,
(33:26):
what is that?
Um, and so I think that yeah,safety measures are great, but
also knowing that there needs tobe like more conversation
around it because if a parent'slike you can't self-harm anymore
because I took all of thesharps, kids gonna be like
actually sure.
Dr. Amy Moore (33:46):
If you can always find a way, but it seems like
you would want to create a safeenvironment anyway, yes, yeah.
Stacy Schaffer (33:57):
Oh, absolutely to say that, but to because I'm
all about the conversation,right?
And so I'm like, I think it'sconversation of we're gonna
remove these things like so thatyou're not tempted, but I'm
also aware, like that, likethere are different things that
you could find.
And I would just ask that youeither come to me, you write it
(34:18):
down, you save it for Stacey,you do a voice memo, something
to you for that urgency, ifyou're wanting to find something
outside of what we're trying tocreate here as a safe space.
Dr. Amy Moore (34:32):
Sure.
And then that's where thesubstitution comes in, right?
So if it if you as a parentmake it harder to access the
self-harm tools, then it gives alittle bit of space, right, for
your child or teen to say,okay, what can I do now?
What can I do instead?
Oh, that's right.
(34:52):
Stacy said, Hey, I've I neededto make a list of all of these
different things, perhapsextreme sensory experiences,
walking barefoot in the snow,holding an ice cube, sucking on
a sour lemon drop, to doinstead, to release that urge.
Stacy Schaffer (35:10):
Yeah, and to not like and not pretend that it
doesn't exist.
Yeah.
Because I think I've had a lotof kids try to say in that
strategy isn't effective.
I tell kids, you can't controlthe thoughts that come into your
head, but you can control whatyou do with them.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Yes.
Stacy Schaffer (35:26):
And I'd like you to stop shaming yourself for
having that desire when you'retrying so hard to not.
And I think I know I I wroteabout this in the book, but the
I am sober app I think is areally good one if it is used
wisely for a lot of you can useit for any addiction, but I'm a
fan of that app.
Dr. Amy Moore (35:48):
Yeah, and I think you've mentioned that some
teens resist using it becausethey're afraid that their
parents will see that okay, Idid self-harm if the parents are
also monitoring the app.
What are your thoughts on that?
Stacy Schaffer (36:05):
Yeah, I so I feel like yeah, that it isn't
for everyone.
Some kids have not wanted toeven download it because they're
like, they're like, I don'twant my parent to worry.
But I think that it's a maybe asmaller population of kids that
are like, I need help.
My parent knows I need help.
My parent also is not going tocheck my app, that particular
(36:26):
app, and have the trust there,and because it is a diary, and
so I think it just it depends onthe dynamic at home.
If it's something where you'relike, no, I think I need to
monitor what my kid's doing,they're probably not going to be
honest in that particular app.
But I think for the kids thatit does work for, it's really
(36:47):
like neat to say, look, I have17 days of sobriety.
And in certain situations, Ithink it could help, but it's
not for everyone.
Sure.
And do you use that language?
Sobriety?
Oh, yeah.
unknown (37:01):
Okay.
Yeah.
Stacy Schaffer (37:02):
I'm like, I say a lot of words, Doctor.
And what word are you talkingabout?
Yes.
Yeah, so like sobriety fromthat, and the kids use that
because as we talked aboutbefore, they've got some
language.
Sure.
And yeah, and I think that'ssomething to be really proud of.
But also, there are some kidsthat don't want to use something
(37:24):
like that because they likethey're like, I'm gonna feel bad
if I like stumble and then haveto start over.
So I like it's not magic, but Ithink for some kids that are
already on a path of I reallydon't want this to be part of my
future story anymore, I thinkit can be helpful.
Dr. Amy Moore (37:44):
Sure.
I'm not sure if you know theanswer to this, but I'm just
gonna bring it up anyway.
Is this so do kids whoself-harm start with harm OCD
that then progresses to actualphysical harm?
Or are those two separateentities where in harm OCD you
(38:08):
just have the urge to cutyourself, stab yourself, jump
off a cliff, but you don't wantto because it scares you so
much.
And so then you just sit inthis space of having these
obsessive, compulsive thoughts,feelings, and try not to have
behaviors.
And then does that progress forsome people into self-harm or
(38:33):
are those just separate?
Stacy Schaffer (38:35):
I tend to think that they're separate, like
there is likely some crossover,but I think they're separate.
My experience with kids that'sself-harm, there's not a ton of
pre-thought into it.
Okay, that it's more of a likean impulsive.
I saw this once.
(38:56):
I wrote about Ginny and Georgiaat the burning scene, and while
I think that was beautiful andpowerful and amazing, it did
give me pause because the kidsare watching, and that's a lot
of times how they learn aboutself-warm from everything that
we see, and so I think that thethought is like, oh, and then
(39:20):
they do it, and I don't thinkthat they journal about it or
spend time talking to anyoneabout it.
I think it's impulsive.
Okay, okay, but there there'slikely crossover about that.
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore (39:36):
All right.
So besides wearing clothes thatare not appropriate for the
season, right?
To try to cover that up, arethere any other warning signs
that parents should be aware of?
Stacy Schaffer (39:50):
Yeah, I mean, I think that the like a lot of
times kids can be like youthey're not as sneaky as they
think they are, but I think Iwould pay attention.
I have a kid that wears likebracelets all up and down.
And I think just that just haveawareness of of it the kid in
front of you.
Because I hesitate to saygeneral warning signs because I
(40:16):
know that a lot of we talked inour earlier conversation about
the shiny kids that like youwouldn't know that things are
going on.
And so I think that there aresome things that are maybe
universal, like the clothingthing or the one-word answer
being secretive thing.
But I think it really does comedown to knowing the the kid you
(40:40):
have and to see what is what doI know of this kid that's
baseline and what seems like alittle off.
And I'm a big fan of having allthe kinds of conversations
before they're an issue.
About self-harm?
Depending on the kid, I thinkthat you don't you're not gonna
(41:02):
give your kid ideas that theydidn't have, but to say if
you're ever feeling like you'rereally hurting and you don't
know what to do, I don'tnecessarily like as a parent,
like I don't necessarily havethe answers, but I never want
you to be in a place where youfeel trapped and you don't know
what to do.
(41:22):
And so, like more along thelines of that, of that you're
not alone in whatever it isyou're struggling with.
I'm not gonna leave you alone.
Dr. Amy Moore (41:33):
I love that, and I think you make a good point
too of saying we need to besupportive, but saying things
like, I was a kid once too, or Idealt with something like that
when I was a teen is nothelpful, right?
Because it's a differentgeneration and a different time,
(41:54):
and it's a different person,and it takes the focus away from
your child when you put it onyourself.
Stacy Schaffer (42:03):
Yeah, and I think a lot of that is due that
we're just living in a differenttime than the parents'
childhoods of the kids thatthey're raising, they're
different childhoods like the80s and the 90s, different
childhoods.
And so when a parent says to akid, yeah, I had overprotective
parents, and so I was a kid, andso I know what that feels like.
(42:23):
And the kid will say to me,Okay, they're overprotective,
but you're like out running inthe neighborhood until like
dusk, and you aren't monitoredby all people at all times, so
that alone is different.
There's just so many differentvariables that it that there is
some connection.
(42:43):
We were all we all had to domiddle school and we all
successfully spread middleschool, but we all had to do
middle school, but we I don'tknow what that's like to have my
friends be able to monitor myevery move.
Like they track each other,it's insane.
I'm like, I don't my friendsdon't need to know where I am at
all times, and I think thatwould just make me feel a
(43:05):
certain way, and so I don't knowwhat it would be like to have
that kind of childhood, but Iwant to hear what your childhood
is like.
Dr. Amy Moore (43:13):
Yes, there's a book called Parent the Child You
Have, Not the Child You Were.
Stacy Schaffer (43:17):
Oh, I love that.
Dr. Amy Moore (43:18):
Yeah, it just reminds me of that.
Okay.
This has been a greatconversation.
I knew it would be a greatconversation because you're
amazing, and so I'm so thankfulthat you came back and gave us
another hour of your time andwisdom.
So thank you, Stacy, for beingwith us.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah.
So, listeners, if you missedpart one, we'll put a link to
(43:41):
that in the show notes to thisepisode so that you can hear all
of Stacy's wisdom that she hasshared with all of us.
Stacy, how can our listenersfind more from you?
Stacy Schaffer (43:52):
So, my my publishers made me a website
called authorsstacyschafer.com.
And I'm guessing it'll be inthe notes because there's lots
of ways to misspell my name.
Yeah.
And there's information aboutmy book, and there's also a
contact me form that goesdirectly to me.
And so if you wanted to shoot amessage that way, but it the
(44:14):
website tells about my book andit gives links to like Amazon,
Audible, Spotify.
Yeah.
And the name of your book isWith Love from a Children's
Therapist.
Hashtag lessons I've learnedalong the way.
Dr. Amy Moore (44:27):
I love it.
I love it.
Stacy, thanks so much for beingwith us.
Stacy Schaffer (44:31):
Thank you for having me.
Yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore (44:33):
Listeners, thanks for being with us today, too.
If you want more from us, youcan find us at theBrainyMoms.com
or on social media at theBrainy Moms.
If you love us, please leave usa five-star rating and review
on Apple Podcasts, especiallybecause someone gave us a one
star with no comment, bringingour average down to 4.9 instead
of 5.0.
(44:54):
And so we want to get that backup for sure.
So, listeners, I hope you feela little bit smarter after
spending this hour with us.
We'll catch you next time.
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