October 6, 2025 • 53 mins
Homeschooling or thinking about it? Wondering if 'open education' is right for your homeschooled child? What if everything we thought we knew about education was designed for a world that no longer exists? Matt Bowman, founder of OpenEd and international bestselling author, joins Dr. Amy and Sandy on this episode of The Brainy Moms Podcast to challenge the foundations of traditional education and offer a refreshingly practical alternative for today's families who are homeschooling or even considering it.
After watching all five of his children develop in completely different ways despite growing up in the same household, Matt realized that education shouldn't be one-size-fits-all—it should be as unique as each child.
The conversation dives deep into why standard education often fails to meet individual needs. Matt explains how our current system was originally modeled after military training methods imported from Europe over 200 years ago—designed to produce obedient soldiers rather than creative, independent thinkers. This standardization approach stands in stark contrast to how children actually learn and develop.
"The real tragedy," Matt shares, "is that this system not only fails to measure what matters in education—creativity, continuous progress, critical thinking, skill development—it actively works against it." For parents whose children are struggling, unhappy, or just not thriving, Matt offers a revolutionary yet simple starting point: take two weeks to try something different. Give your child space to explore their interests without pressure, and watch what naturally emerges.
One of the most powerful insights Matt shares is reframing our understanding of failure. While traditional education treats failure as something to avoid at all costs, successful athletes, musicians, and entrepreneurs embrace it as essential to growth. Teaching children to see challenges as "not yet" rather than failure fundamentally transforms their relationship with learning.
With AI rapidly changing our economic landscape, the skills that matter most aren't standardized test scores but creativity, adaptability, and entrepreneurial thinking. Matt encourages parents to tap into community resources—museums, local businesses, nature, arts programs—and integrate them into core education rather than treating them as mere enrichment.
For families ready to explore alternatives, Matt reminds us that small changes can make an enormous difference. Whether it's adjusting schedules, exploring interests, or incorporating entrepreneurship, the goal isn't to replicate school at home but to create learning experiences that honor each child's unique path.
Join us to get inspired about personalizing an education that works for your unique child.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Dr. Amy Moore (00:00):
Hi, smart moms and dads.
Welcome to this episode of theBrainy Moms podcast brought to
you today by LearningRx BrainTraining Centers.
I'm Dr Amy Moore here withSandy Zamalis.
Sandy and I are going to have aconversation with Matt Bowman.
Let me tell you a little bitabout him.
So Matt is an internationalbestselling author and the
founder of OpenEd.
(00:20):
For over 30 years, matt has beenreimagining education for the
digital age.
He's a former sixth gradeteacher, turned tech executive
and education entrepreneur.
Matt saw firsthand how thetraditional education system
often fails to meet the uniqueneeds of individual learners.
So, together with his wife, amy, matt founded OpenEd, which has
(00:44):
served more than 100,000students across multiple states,
including military families,worldwide.
Their approach focuses onblending personalized learning
with technology andentrepreneurship skills, giving
students the flexibility tolearn in ways that work best for
them.
So Matt holds multiple degreesin education, including the
(01:08):
Executive Business ManagementProgram at Stanford.
He lives in the mountains ofUtah, where he and Amy enjoy
spending time with their fivemarried children and four
grandchildren, and counting.
Matt is here today to talk tous about open education.
Welcome, matt.
How are you today?
Great to us about open?
Matt Bowman (01:25):
education.
Welcome, Matt.
How are you today?
Great to see both of you.
Dr. Amy Moore (01:28):
Good to see you too.
We're excited to talk to youtoday.
Matt Bowman (01:32):
It's an honor to be with you too, so thank you.
Dr. Amy Moore (01:35):
I just love your mission, I love what you're
doing.
We're in the homeschool spaceand so I mean, from a personal
perspective of curating what,especially with my youngest,
curating his educational journeyI wish I had known that your
(01:57):
resources existed at the time,because I was just winging it.
And that's okay.
It worked out because, like,after reading your book, I feel
like I hit all of those right,like I'm going to look at his
passions and his interests andhis strengths and we're just
going to go with it and it'sokay.
And I didn't care what otherpeople said.
And you know my like, my momhas a doctorate in education and
(02:21):
she thought I was crazy forunschooling my youngest kid.
What are you doing?
What do you mean?
What are you doing?
What about socialization?
Are you right?
And I'm like you need to justleave it because this is what my
kid needs, so anyway.
So I was super excited justthat your philosophy aligns with
what we do and how we supporthomeschool families.
Matt Bowman (02:43):
I was reading through your stuff.
I mean we're very much aligned,like just get out of the way
and help the kids thrive, right.
Sandy Zamalis (02:52):
Yeah, exactly.
Matt Bowman (02:54):
And what are your ages, your kids, Sandra?
Sandy Zamalis (02:57):
Oh, my kids are older.
We're old.
Our kids are out of school.
We still serve families, so youknow I work with a lot of
families.
That have kids all ages?
Yeah, mine are.
I'm an empty nester now andyou're in.
Dr. Amy Moore (03:10):
Utah.
Matt Bowman (03:12):
I'm based in Utah, yep.
Dr. Amy Moore (03:13):
Okay, my husband just got back from a 10-day
fishing trip in Utah last week.
Matt Bowman (03:18):
What part Do you know?
Dr. Amy Moore (03:20):
The Green River, the northeast corner, yeah yeah,
usually go to Montana.
He has a group of friends thatusually go to Montana for 10
days, but the rivers, the waterlevel was too low for fishing
and so the week before they sortof had to drop back in punt and
go okay, where are we goinginstead?
(03:41):
And so they went to Utah andnow they're saying maybe that's
where they want to go next,because it was phenomenal, the
fish were huge.
I mean, I can't believe how fatthese trout were.
Matt Bowman (03:53):
So are you, I do not fish yeah, me neither.
Dr. Amy Moore (04:00):
Yeah, I don't either, but he's an avid fly
fisherman and I'm just not.
Matt Bowman (04:04):
I don't have the patience for how often I get
tangled up in the weeds and haveto start over again.
Dr. Amy Moore (04:11):
Yeah, well, I think that's part of their.
Yeah, they're like OK, well,whatever, so anyway.
Sandy Zamalis (04:20):
OK, we're so glad you're here.
I love this topic.
I'm very much a we need torethink the education system for
our kids person.
Huge advocate for homeschooling, I homeschooled my kids as well
.
So did I know Amy did as well.
And so let's jump in there.
How did you get started in thisspace of just trying to rethink
(04:41):
education for families?
Matt Bowman (04:43):
trying to rethink education for families, starting
as being a parent five children, right, you guys would
appreciate that.
So my wife and I were raisingour five children in the same
household.
The same expectations, same jobcharts and cadences and
schedules, and all five weredifferent.
And we started realizing, huh,if they're so different from
(05:04):
each other personalities,interests, likes, dislikes their
education should probably betailored a little differently
for them as well.
You can't just in a box serveall kids.
And so we started thinking whatcan we do for each child?
Every year we'd say what shouldtheir education program look
like this year?
Look like this year?
(05:26):
And we realized soon that otherfamilies were dealing with the
same question and the samechallenge of how do you adapt
education to each child, and thesystem's not set up to do that.
And so we realized well, let'stry to figure out how do we help
families.
And we tap.
You know, the message of openeducation is not just one
version of another.
(05:46):
Schooling is better like don'tget pigeonholed into the label
of even public or charter ordistrict or micro or homeschool
or unschool.
Tap into all of them.
You figure out what your childneeds and say what are the
resources that we need to tapinto so.
So we started doing that atscale and realized just tens of
thousands of families neededthat same support structure is
(06:09):
just how do I navigate atraditionally standardized
system with a very unique child?
So that's where it all started.
Sandy Zamalis (06:19):
I love that.
Dr. Amy Moore (06:20):
Yeah, I do too.
I always wondered as adults, wedo a whole bunch of different
things with our lives.
Right?
Our careers are reallyindividualized and so diverse,
so why do we educate childrenfor 12 years in the exact same
way?
I agree, right.
(06:41):
And you talk about that in yourbook right, you talk about that
.
You know a horseman adoptingthis.
You know European idea oftraining up obedient soldiers
Right.
And he brought it back toAmerica and said this is how we
should educate kids.
And I thought do people notknow that?
Matt Bowman (07:03):
It's been around for 200 years, but I would say
just within the last few years,people are starting to really
realize that maybe that's notthe right model and in fact AI
is adding to that right.
So recently, in the last year,ai has disrupted so many future
(07:23):
traditional plans.
You can't just be guaranteed adiploma to a college, to a work,
to a job for life.
Ai has said don't plan on thatat all.
So it's making parents askthemselves well, what is
education?
What should I be thinking aboutas they're adults?
And then you start saying, well, what should I be thinking
(07:45):
about when they're K-12?
Also right, and so it really is.
Just over the last few years,the momentum is just building so
much around parents sayingthere's got to be a different
way.
Sandy Zamalis (07:58):
Yeah, I'm sure so many parents seek you out
because they're looking forsomething like this.
They're looking for a way tothink outside the box.
Let's start there.
How do you help parents sort ofde-school, because that's part
of the problem, right?
You know we have a view orperception of what school should
(08:19):
look like, and so we almosthave to de-school ourselves as
parents in order to rethink whatit looks like for our student.
How do you help with that?
Matt Bowman (08:29):
Yeah, you're absolutely right, sandra, that
is the starting point is thatwe're so ingrained in one
version of what schooling lookslike that it's really hard to
think outside of that.
But it's so funny, once you do,once you see it, you can't
unsee it right.
You start to say, oh wow, youknow what, maybe I can just do a
(08:49):
little more flexibility in astructure to start, and then
just start adding flexibilitiesto that.
So yeah, to your point.
The first thing is just toacknowledge or ask yourself is
my child happy, like?
I like to just start with thatquestion.
If you and your children arehappily enjoying their current
(09:10):
education program, great, keepdoing it.
I'm not here to say whateveryou're doing is wrong, change it
.
No, it's opposite.
If your child is thriving,doing well, enjoys everything
about it and you're comfortablewith it, you're good with the
schedule and the routines, andthen keep doing it.
But if there's some unhappinessor some stress or some anxiety
(09:33):
or some little thing that'sniggling at you that says you
know what something's off alittle bit, just stop and say,
okay, what could I dodifferently?
And number one recommendationis don't start everything at
once, right, so just start small.
I like to tell parents, you know, maybe take two weeks off.
(09:54):
Just write a letter.
You know your school may notlike it or whatever, but write a
little letter that says mychild's gonna be gone for two
weeks.
He's safe, he's well, he justyou know he can't come for two
weeks and just kind of let seewhat happens.
And if you have multiplechildren, maybe do it one at a
time, right?
(10:14):
So you have, you know, onechild at home for a couple of
weeks and just spend some timewith them and see what they
discover, see what they're like,you know, and then if they are
longing to go back to thestructure that they had, yeah,
send them back.
You've only taken two weeks out.
That's great, right?
So literally just start smalland then start saying, okay,
what could I plug in?
(10:35):
Or you know, then eventuallymaybe it's oh, I'm just going to
take them home at noon everyday.
They're going to go to schoolin the mornings and then at noon
I'm going to pick them up andwe're going to go explore the
world or start a business orentrepreneurship I love for kids
, you know that kind of thing.
Dr. Amy Moore (10:50):
So just find ways that you can trial it and see
if there is some steps you startuncovering that are really
powerful between you and yourchild and your child, yeah, and
I think that one-on-one time andthat time of low pressure, low
stress really then gives yourchild an opportunity to explore
(11:17):
what it is that they even wantto talk to you about, right,
that they have this space todream and to think and, you know
, to share, and I think that'sbeautiful.
Matt Bowman (11:27):
Yeah, and we haven't.
I put in the book tacticalactivities.
You could do whether, whatevertime you want to start.
And we start with just what areyour children's interests?
And, as you know, so manyparents said I don't know.
I have no idea what my childreally likes, and it's often
because they're over-structured,their schedule's too busy.
(11:48):
They haven't ever had a chanceto show you what they would do
if they don't have anything todo, right.
So you want some downtime, youwant some unstructured time and
then start with just watchingwhat they think about when they
don't have to think aboutanything, and you know.
So we start with interests, butthen we couch that under needs.
(12:09):
So we also you know it's notjust a blank slate do whatever
you're interested in.
We have to sync that with childneeds, parent needs, sibling
needs, home, you know homemanagement needs.
Then we turn to theneighborhood, where the
neighborhood needs, where thecommunity needs, and as you
start kind of mixing theinterests with needs, something
(12:33):
really beautiful happens.
You start to see, realize thatyour children have interests
that might solve a need in thecommunity and if you marry those
together, natural learningstarts to occur and joy returns
and the stress goes down andlike it's really pretty magical.
So it's fun to see that.
Dr. Amy Moore (12:52):
Absolutely.
And then I would think too, onthe opposite end, you've got
some kids who are reallystruggling, and so they have
their neurodivergent, or theyhave special needs, or they are
dealing with a learningdisability, and it's my
contention that strugglinglearners are under chronic
(13:15):
stress, as it does to acutetrauma, and so these kids who
are struggling are in this fightor flight mode, and so, of
course, they can't think aboutwhat it is that they're
interested in or passionateabout, because they're just
trying to survive.
Matt Bowman (13:37):
I think that's really well said and I believe
you, and that's grounded inscience and grounded in research
and fact that those kids justcan't they're, they're just, uh,
you know, just in a, in a modeof fight and and survival, that
they just can't be freed up tothink about interests that they
(13:57):
might have.
Like, it's just is, you can'tdo it Do it Right.
Dr. Amy Moore (14:02):
And the reality is a parent could say, okay,
well too bad, right, you stillhave to go to school.
These are still therequirements.
This is the legal requirement.
This is what we do.
We go to school, but if we arein fight or flight then our
amygdala has hijacked ourprefrontal cortex and we can't
think and learn anyway, and sojust pushing our child through
(14:26):
that isn't going to work.
We have to make a change.
We have to be able to recognizethat, pull back, decompress,
give our child some breathingroom, so that then we can say,
okay, how can I best support mychild?
Matt Bowman (14:41):
Yeah, and I'll add that, like it or not, parents in
today's world have to take thatstep of caring.
They just can't no longer justoutsource that to the public
school or whatever.
Parents again, whether you likeit or not, the time's changed
enough now that you need to takethat forward step and say, ok,
(15:05):
my child's struggling.
The schools sometimes aren'tequipped to help your child in
the way that you know that theyneed it, so you're going to have
to step up a little bit moreand do something, and so that's
where we kind of just want tobring all the resources to the
table to help parents navigatethat challenge that maybe they
didn't feel like they signed upfor, you know, 20 years ago or
10 years ago.
(15:25):
So it but time is now and it'sexciting to be able to help
families see that light bulb goon and what they can do, and
there's more flexibility thanyou think when you look at all
these regulations andexpectations.
Sandy Zamalis (15:41):
I think a lot of parents maybe feel unqualified
and that's kind of the hiccupthat they have when this, you
know this, the child isstruggling, they're not sure
what to do, and so there's,there's definitely a thread in
our society that says you knowthere are, you know the school
is qualified, and what I'mhearing you say is not all, not
(16:04):
always.
I mean yes, in some respects,but they might not have the
resources and they aren't goingto move at the speed Right.
Dr. Amy Moore (16:09):
Qualified but not necessarily equipped right.
Sandy Zamalis (16:11):
Right.
They're not going to move atthe speed you need them to move.
It's going to take them yearsto address the issue.
So talk about that a little bit.
What is, you know, the programthat you guys do?
What do you do to help equipparents so that they do feel
like they have, if not thequalifications, the resources
available to them?
Matt Bowman (16:32):
Yeah.
So we have a couple differentprogram models.
So one is where we partner withschool districts to tap into
their resources and bring thoseresources to the family at home.
So that's what we've been doingfor 17 years now.
That was the genesis of it is Iwanted it to be accessible to
all.
There wasn't a private tuitionthreshold that only the rich
(16:53):
could access it.
So we've really been working,for again, this is our 17th year
that we've been delivering aprogram in partnership with
school districts around thecountry, and if we're in your
state, we can bring to youresources at no cost to you.
So that's where we start.
We say, okay, where's yourchild, what does he or she need?
(17:13):
And then let's tap intocurriculum, teachers, technology
, tutors, you know, studentclubs, virtual, you know, teams,
those kinds of things just tobring together a community of
families and educators andparents to be able to help
children wherever they are.
And you know here's a funnyexample that sometimes what I've
(17:36):
learned over the years is thatwhen a kid says I'm not good at
math, I, you know which is acommon?
You hear that that's a commonsentence.
And what's funny is I say, oh,you know what which is a common.
You hear that that's a commonstate sentence and what's funny
is I say, oh, you know what?
That's the adult's fault.
It's not that you're not goodat math.
We haven't found the mathcurriculum that clicks with the
way your brain learns math andthey're like, oh, you mean, it's
(17:57):
not me, it's the, it's thecurriculum choice right Cause
there's dozens, if not hundreds,of different ways to teach math
.
And when you can finally findthat clicking light bulb for a
kid when they learn math, theway that their brain is wired,
it's exciting, it's thrillingand it's great.
They're no longer bad at mathbecause we've been able to find
(18:18):
the resource that taps into it.
And that's what really is ourprogram.
That's so different is that wedidn't say here's the curriculum
that y'all have to do.
We say let's start with a childand find the curriculum that
helps them, and that kind ofbackwards approach has really
been well received by families.
To create this kind ofmarketplace embedded curriculum.
(18:39):
Try some, try another, you know, figure out if that works for
you and if it doesn't, drop it,don't force it.
If it's not working well, don'tuse it right and there's other
options.
And pair that along with areally caring, experienced
teacher that's there to help you, as the parent and the child,
navigate what they need to learnand what they want to learn.
(19:01):
And then you know, add to thattechnology resources, software,
adobe licenses, you know,minecraft licenses, lego
licenses, whatever right.
So just flood the child withwhatever resources they need to
be able to pursue the passionand purpose they have in their
life.
Dr. Amy Moore (19:21):
I love that.
So that starts with aquestionnaire or a conversation,
or how?
How do you help parentsdetermine the right path for
their child?
Matt Bowman (19:36):
So it starts on our technology platform where
parents are given kind of thisfree range to start building
what are some activities, whatare some things I want to do
this year.
So they start just kind ofputting that on their education
plan and then we have someprompts that fill that in with
(19:57):
oh, this curriculum might helpwith that, or this set of
options might support that planthat you have.
So it starts with what are someideas and interests that my
family has to learn this yearand then we populate that with
some ideas of curriculum optionsthat they could use.
And then it's tap into ourparent support staff and our
(20:17):
teachers and really take thenext level down and say, okay,
now that you've chosen thiscategory or this area that you
want to study, what do you thinkabout this curriculum?
And you've chosen that one andwhat can we do as a teacher or
resource to help with that plan?
So that's really just kind ofstarts there and builds the
(20:37):
education plan.
You know we we say we want tohelp parents become education
designers and that's what ourplatform starts with.
Is that premise that let's helpparents navigate the world?
You know unlimited options isoverwhelming right.
And so we try to just Saywhat's your plan and just
introduce two or three differentoptions at a time.
(21:00):
Let them demo it, trial, youknow, have a trial version of
something, or we'll shift thembooks or whatever they need.
And the other thing that we doin our program really well is we
embrace the community aspect ofeducation.
And so there's so many, as youboth know, raising your children
.
There's so much educationavailable in the community that
(21:20):
sometimes we set aside as, oh,there's so much education
available in the community thatsometimes we set aside as, oh,
that's just after school orthat's just enrichment or that's
just seasonal or whatever.
But you know what, bring thatinto the daytime and say what if
that was part of our plan?
You know math museum or Sylvanlearning centers, or you know
ballet classes or piano lessonsor karate studios or sports
(21:42):
leagues or like, let's not justhave that be an and after, let's
have that be part of education.
And there's so much learningthat can happen when you bundle
in the community educationaspect of museums and zoos and
planetariums and you know allthose things are so amazing to
help round out that experience.
(22:03):
And then again I mentionedentrepreneurship.
I love kids of all ages.
I've helped kids as young assix, go start a business.
So go out in the community andsay in my neighborhood, what
problem can I solve that someonewill pay me something for?
And if you don't want to goprofit focused, then go, be
service oriented.
That you're trying to.
I'm going to raise money forthis cause and so I'm going to
(22:24):
do these services or bring youthese products or cookies or
whatever Right, so you can doboth entrepreneurship for profit
and nonprofit.
It's really just the idea ofadding value to a problem in
your community and see if youcan help be a leader in solving
that and see if you can help bea leader in solving that.
Dr. Amy Moore (22:51):
So I want to talk a little bit about how, even
though you're helping parentscurate an education program or
collection of opportunities thatmeet their child's individual
needs, you aren't trying toapproximate a public school or
private school classroom,because you're trying to break
parents out of that idea thatyour child needs to learn this.
Then you assess them, they geta grade and then you move on to
(23:12):
the next thing.
You're trying to totally changethe mindset of what mastery
looks like right, of whatmastery looks like right.
And I know that in your bookyou give examples of athletes
and their completion percentagesand how if they were graded on
their completion percentages,then people like LeBron James
and Michael Jordan would not beconsidered elite athletes, right
(23:34):
?
Matt Bowman (23:35):
And you talk about I've got to insert there, dr Amy
, that I had to do it.
One of my chapters starts withLeBron.
Lebron James is a failure.
Dot dot dots.
He's not One of the greatestathletes and basketball players
of all time, but the dot dot dotis.
If we graded him like we gradekids in school yes, and he would
(23:56):
His stats would be a failure,right 56% or something like that
, his stats would be a failure,right, 56% or something like
that.
Dr. Amy Moore (24:02):
Right, like, yeah , well, and so I love then how
you bring professional musiciansin and you know, you, just you
talk about how you attemptsomething, you fail at it, then
you make this adjustment, thenyou try again, right, that that
mastery isn't a one and donegrading process.
And so it made me think.
So my youngest son and hisfiance are music performance
(24:26):
majors at CSU and she's acellist, he's a flutist, flutist
, flute player, okay, so theyare actually performing a piece
together this semester and Iwatched them workshop it over
the weekend and there weremeasures of music of them
(24:46):
playing together that werestraight out of heaven,
beautiful synergy in how theyplay.
And then there were thesemeasures of failure and I say
music, I mean by music measureson the staff, right where they
just were out of sync, completefailures, hitting the wrong
notes, and they would stop eachother.
You know, correct, each other,yell at each other, and then
(25:08):
they would play beautifullyagain.
And so I watched this process ofthis was great.
Oh, you failed.
This was great.
Oh, you failed.
And that was okay, because thatis the process of learning and
and beginning to perfect it andbeginning to master it, but
knowing that you're going tofall over flat on your face and
(25:28):
fail multiple times before youget it right, and that's OK.
Matt Bowman (25:33):
I love that.
I love that example.
I in the book and in my life.
I love the phrase not yet andthat's really what we focus on.
Is that it's we're all a bunchof not yets and we have a bunch
of not yets in our life.
We have some of these mastered,maybe close to masterly
proficient in what we do, but wehave a lot of not yets as
(25:54):
adults.
And yet we tell kids they can'thave not yets.
You know that's just ridiculouson face value.
And then we threaten kids thatlike failure is so bad.
If you don't do what I say, I'mgoing to fail you.
What does that teach the kidabout failure?
It's something you avoid at allcosts and it's a punishment,
(26:14):
Whereas you meet artists andmusicians and athletes and
failure is like the rewardingpart because you tried something
that you failed at and you'regoing to try to do better at it.
Right, so that's like thebeautiful thing of failure.
And we raise kids thinking thatfailure is a threatening thing
that we have to avoid at allcosts and you're a bad kid if
(26:35):
you fail, and that's just theopposite of what these kids need
.
Sandy Zamalis (26:40):
Yeah, you talk a lot about the average student
myth and just you know, and allthat standardization, all the
testing that we do to our kids,this kind of falls in line with
kind of what you're saying here,is.
You know, we're priming ourkids from a very early age that
they've.
If they don't do it perfectly,they are failures and they don't
(27:01):
get to practice and enjoy theprocess.
Matt Bowman (27:04):
Or they're being right.
I mean, that's a phrase thatjust drives me crazy.
Sandy Zamalis (27:10):
Yeah, talk more about that yeah.
Matt Bowman (27:15):
Yeah.
So I mean we have a wholechapter on.
There's no such thing of anaverage child than the.
You know the myth of an averagechild and I think, dr Amy, I
read that you, you know yourhusband's a Air Force pilot or
retired or something, and we usethat example from the 40s or
50s.
So the Air Force sought out todesign the perfect cockpit seat
(27:38):
for Air Force pilots to makethem more safe and more
efficient, and it turned out,you know.
So they measured like across100 different characteristics of
these pilots and designed theperfect average seat.
And it fit nobody.
Not one person fit the averageseat and it ended up actually
(27:59):
like deaths occurred becausethey weren't able to eject
properly or reach the rightcontrols or whatever, like lives
that were at stake therebecause they put average seats
in the, in the, in the airplanes.
So then that led to adjustableseats.
Go figure, right, we need.
You know, everybody's different, and so let's have a seat that
(28:19):
can adjust and forward andbackwards.
We can't imagine cars or chairsthese days that don't adjust
Right.
And so, because everybody'sstyle is so different, and so
that's the premise of, we'veignored that truth in a very
standardized public ed system,to say every child at third
grade and four months should beat this level or else they're
(28:43):
behind.
And it's just ridiculous.
On all child developmentresearch that says that's not
true, you know.
And then don't even get mestarted on the difference
between boys and girls, right?
I mean, every child developmentexpert would say girls are 18
months ahead, if not more, formany of the early years.
And yet we put a boy and a girlon the same third grade and
(29:05):
eight months reading scale andsay, oh, the boys must just not,
you know they, they must needmedication or no recess to read
more, and like the opposite ofall that is needed for those
kids, right?
And so and I love one of thethings we focus on with boys in
particular there's research outthere that you know, you can
(29:26):
validate or challenge, that saysboys need to be exhausted
before their brains are ready tolearn.
So they just make them run foran hour or two hours or three
hours before you try to squeezein 10 minutes of math.
Right, let their bodies beexhausted and more learning will
occur in that 10 minutes thanif you focus an hour and a half
(29:50):
on the math.
I just love that.
We're all different, everychild's different.
Embrace the unique.
Children need unique options.
Dr. Amy Moore (30:06):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely Okay.
So I want to read you a quotefrom your book and have you
speak to it, because Ihighlighted it, because it was
so impactful.
And so this is talking abouthow we assess learning and
measure learning in the schoolsystem and what we get wrong.
Okay, here we go from your book.
You say the real tragedy isthat this system not only fails
(30:28):
to measure what matters ineducation creativity, continuous
progress, critical thinking,skill development and more.
It actively works against it.
While politicians andpolicymakers debate solutions
based on test scores, thefundamental needs of children to
move, play, socially interactand experience genuine discovery
(30:49):
continue to be sacrificed.
This disconnect demonstratesthe system's own failure to
understand how children actuallydevelop and learn.
So these experts who havecreated the system of measuring
progress and growth don't evenunderstand fundamentally how
(31:10):
children learn and develop.
Is what you're saying.
Matt Bowman (31:14):
I agree, and it just sounds so shocking to hear
that, doesn't it that we havethought that the experts that
design the system are groundedin child development knowledge,
and that's just not true.
They're grounded in assessmenttheory or standardization or
(31:35):
policy or things that can bemeasured and controlled in a box
.
That's how our systems aredesigned.
They're not designed by peoplethat are looking at the child
themselves.
And so you know, it's really.
Yeah.
You reminded me by reading thatjust how far off we are when we
(31:55):
don't, when we ignore the humannature of each child instead of
just trying to create a systemfor everything.
And again, who to blame on allthat?
There's layers up and down, andso I was purposeful not to
blame too many people, right,like.
This is one book that doesn'tlash out at some group for some
(32:19):
reason, right, lash out at somegroup for some reason, right,
the purpose isn't to blamepeople.
It's to shine a light that thisisn't the best way to do it and
let's figure out some options.
And you know, I read an articleyesterday about the national
crisis of chronic absenteeism.
I'm sure you've seen thoseheadlines, right?
Kids are not going to school atthe rate they used to, and
(32:43):
there's all these nowbureaucrats and people trying to
solve that problem by lookingat the data, and there was one
comment somewhere that part ofthe article said many
researchers are saying they'rediscovering that the answer when
they ask parents and kids thatquestion why don't they go to
school their answer is school isboring.
(33:06):
And I'm like, yeah, we shouldprobably start there.
We should probably create anenvironment where kids want to
go there because it's exciting,there's learning and and I tell
you as a teacher, former teachermyself I would want that
environment to be part of.
You know, teachers didn't signup to be test preppers and just
(33:28):
you know, just deliver test prepall the time and standardize
everything.
Teachers want to inspire andcelebrate learning journey that
kids go through in their livesand we just don't let them do
that, and so it's just so.
Yeah, it's something that wereally want to, just to help
people realize that there arebetter ways to do this, and it's
(33:50):
opening up education to allforms.
Embrace it, don't just getpigeonholed into one path.
Sandy Zamalis (33:57):
I know probably the bigger, like existential
problem is is that you know alot of the policymakers, you
know politicians, you know bigpeople in education to put
together an education thatmatches what they think the
(34:24):
nation needs.
Right, which is how we got intothings like STEM.
Right, stem was the big thingfor you know, like a decade.
But you know, what I'm hearingyou say is we really need the
opposite approach.
We really need to look at ourindividual children.
It's almost like the ultimateand true individualized
education, where we really lookat our individual children.
It's almost like the ultimateand true individualized
education where we really lookat each individualized student
(34:46):
and figure out what are theirgifts, what are their talents,
where do they need some extraskill, support or help.
You know, that's where you knowAmy and I live.
We want to help unlock thosetalents and gifts by helping
them strengthen, you know,skills that might be holding
them back.
So that's what I'm hearing yousay.
That's like these two worldswhere you know we've got the big
(35:09):
thinkers who are trying toaverage out everything based on
whatever perceived needs we haveas a society, and then we as
parents need to kind of totallytake that apart and look at each
individual student in our homeand figure out how to help them
build those talents.
Matt Bowman (35:29):
It's so true, sandra, that's exactly right.
And you know people, stateofficials over the years have
said, matt that all sounds greatfor a few kids.
You can't do that at scale, youcan't personalize at scale.
I you know, I have to deal witha million kids in this state.
How can I personalize educationfor every child?
And I think I've been able tochallenge that.
Dr. Amy Moore (35:52):
You're like Peter , hold my beer.
Sandy Zamalis (35:54):
I'm switching.
Matt Bowman (35:57):
It's like you know what it can be done at scale.
There are things liketechnology, there are things
like platforms, there are thingslike humans that can connect
you know and over you know, overvirtual beings, and and dial
down to write to the very home,the very child, what they need
(36:17):
and it's doable at scale.
Uh, like literally it's.
It's not something that's justdreamy, it's just you have to
want to and that's you know,that's the biggest thing.
I'm gonna steal a line frommike rowe.
You know a great advocate forskills-based, you know,
vocational, uh, our country,that's what our country right
now needs a lot of, especiallywith, with AI.
(36:40):
And he says we don't have askill gap, we have a will gap.
I think that same will gapexists in our either legislature
or state offices orpolicymakers or whatever, or
even local state boards orschool boards or whatever might
(37:00):
have a will gap, just theyaren't willing to just say let's
do something different.
Now we're finding the ones whodo.
We're finding partsuperintendents and school
boards across the country thatsay you know what, enough of
this declining enrollment,nobody wants to come here.
What can we do to have themwant to come back?
And we're like this is whatthey want and so they're like
(37:21):
all right, let's give them that.
And we have been coming back indroves, just family after
family that comes and says thatwill help my child.
That's what we're talking about, and it's just super exciting
to be able to see there arepeople that want to do the right
thing for kids.
And and again, there's moreflexibility in all state
structure and regulations thanmost people think.
(37:42):
You just have to be willing topush it a little bit.
Dr. Amy Moore (37:47):
Yeah, I agree, and I think you know that this
whole attendance issue, I would.
I would argue that it isn'tjust kids saying I'm bored, it's
kids saying I can't.
And so when you are frustratedbecause you can't meet an
(38:09):
expectation that's unrealistic,because it is beyond your skill
set or because it isn'trealistic for your age or
developmental level, right, thenthat frustration turns into low
self-esteem, it turns intoobstinate behavior.
Right, it's a domino effect.
And so if we don't go back tolooking at the root issue you
(38:32):
know of why is my childexhibiting school refusal?
Right, and it very well may beboredom, right, Because we have
kids on that end of the spectrumthat are like I'm not being
challenged.
No, I agree, that's just one ofmany yes absolutely so, speaking
of, we need to take a break andlet Sandy read a word from our
(38:53):
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Sandy Zamalis (38:56):
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Give LearningRx a call at866-BRAIN-01 or visit
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Dr. Amy Moore (39:49):
So, matt, I want to talk about something that we
talked about at the top of thehour before we started recording
, and that is you say you needto put your kids before your
reputation, and I think thatthat holds a lot of parents back
, parents who are consideringhomeschooling or unschooling or
(40:09):
alternative schooling for theirkids, but they're afraid of what
their family will think, theirfriends will think Are they
doing something that's againstsocietal standards?
Are they doing something that'sagainst societal standards?
Talk about that and how we canstart to dispel that idea or
kind of allay that anxiety.
Matt Bowman (40:35):
You know that's so interesting that we had to
dedicate a whole chapter to thattopic, right, because we
realized that probably is one ofthe biggest stumbling blocks
for any parent getting startedinto a mindset that's focused on
their child's education.
It's their reputation ispreventing them from that.
They want to be able to get thekudos they get or the applaud
(40:55):
or praise they get at thegrocery store or at the family
reunion or Christmas dinner withgrandma and grandpa that says,
oh, my child's, you know, 4.0student and they're going to
college and they're going to bea doctor gets all this padded
praise.
And so we sometimesmisinterpret that as, oh, I'm
doing the right thing.
(41:16):
That might not be the rightthing, and so we highlight that
you have to put your child'sneeds ahead of your reputation.
Take a step back.
It can be humbling, it can makeyou swallow some pride, it can
be oh, I wish I could have saidthat.
You know that my child is doingsome great thing at you know,
research, study at Stanford orwhatever, right?
(41:37):
So we just have to get pastthat and say what does that
child need?
Now, their sibling might needthat, right, what we can
celebrate.
One of the examples that justmade it so real in the book was
Isaac, our co-author.
He was chatting with a mom whohad a, I think, a 22, 23 year
(42:00):
old daughter who was a collegegraduate and had done everything
that system told her to doStraight.
A student went to college, gota degree and then she had an 18
year old son.
So these, that's the story.
And she was saying, oh, I wishmy son were more like my
daughter.
Right, that's very you know.
(42:21):
Because what turns out?
The son had dropped out ofcollege after one semester.
He was making five grand amonth in his business that he
began.
So he was in his mind, thrivingI'm making five grand a month.
I started this, myentrepreneurship gig.
I'm never going to college,that's a waste of time.
And he was off and running inhis business pursuit.
(42:42):
She couldn't handle that.
She would tell her family he'sa dropout.
And yet her daughter was livingback in her basement with like
$100,000 in debt, no jobprospects, depressed, anxious
and not knowing where to go.
And the mom was saying I wishmy son were more like my
(43:04):
daughter.
And that's just.
That's the epitome of oursociety.
Puts these expectations onparents that if they don't have
a direct to a college or amaster's or an advanced degree
and they're, you know, have allthis debt.
For some reason, we forget that, that that's okay, whereas kids
(43:25):
who start businesses or starton apprenticeships or
internships or whatever and haveno debt like one of our phrases
we sometimes celebrate in ourfamily is 23 and debt free,
because our kids have chosen apath that doesn't burden them
with debt.
And success looks differentlyfor each child, whether it's
industry certifications or askill or apprenticeship or a
(43:48):
college degree.
I don't care.
If that meets what you need, doit, but if it doesn't, don't
right, it's that simple.
So reputation is a hard one toget over and you just got to do
it.
You just got to set that asideand say what's best for my child
and take the slings and arrowsthat come from others.
Dr. Amy Moore (44:07):
Yeah, I agree, and I think that you know for us
, I will never forget when weeven started considering
alternative options, we weresitting in the principal's
office the very last day ofschool and our child had been on
an IEP and 504 plan and we weresupposed to be alerted to any
(44:32):
missing assignments as soon asthey were missing things like
that.
And we got a notification thenight before the last day of
school that our child, with ADHD, had 21 missing assignments and
was going to fail that class ifthose assignments were not
turned in by the next morning.
(44:52):
Well, that's not realistic,right, I don't care, I don't
care if you have a Ferrari brain, you're not going to do 21
assignments the night before thelast day of school.
Right, I don't care, I don'tcare if you have a Ferrari brain
, you're not going to do 21assignments the night before the
last day of school.
And so my husband and I marchedin there the last day of school
, demanded to see the principal,said this he is an IEP, this is
(45:15):
a requirement.
You are required to inform us,right?
And that was the conversationfor the hour.
That was the conversation forthe hour.
And at the end of theconversation, the guidance
counselor looked at us and said,well, I think he fell through
the cracks and I said we'regoing to disenroll him.
(45:41):
And my husband and I got in thecar, looked at each other with
deer caught in headlightsbecause we were like we just
disenrolled our middle schooler.
What do we do now?
Right, and so, as we looked atall of our alternatives, it
began this process of saying weneed to meet the needs of our
child and we're going to caremore about his emotional health
than his academics.
Like that was priority numberone and that followed us through
(46:02):
all three kids.
We're going to hear more abouttheir emotional health than
academics, because that's goingto fall into place.
Like, if we meet those socialemotional needs, then the rest
is going to fall into place.
So I think we, I think parents,need to know what they value.
I think they need to identifywhat they value and then that
(46:22):
value needs to be at theforefront of the decision making
for their child, because therest will fall into place.
Right.
Matt Bowman (46:29):
I totally agree.
Yeah, the right time, the rightthings will click.
They'll get it.
They'll have access to whatthey need and and they'll want
to learn skills to pursue whatthey're interested in.
That's a human trait.
If we give the rightdestructured environment for
them to to flourish like that.
Dr. Amy Moore (46:49):
So Right, and this child is an entrepreneur
now.
Sandy Zamalis (46:54):
Right, and so I think it's an American legacy.
Like I really feel like, justas Americans, we have this
legacy of entrepreneurship andinnovation.
Like, if you look at any of thebig you know Elon Musk or Bill
Gates, all of those guys, noneof them followed the path, they
went about it in a wholedifferent way and like maybe
(47:14):
it's just something we, asparents, need to like also
remember and embrace.
No, we're innovators.
We can think outside the box.
Matt Bowman (47:24):
I agree.
Like it's, our country isfounded on those principles of
entrepreneurship and innovationand you know I really it's one
of those things that, with a few, with the unknown future that
AI is creating, I really sayentrepreneurship skills are the
thing that will help everyonenavigate the future.
Just start thinking.
Sandy Zamalis (47:45):
Ai is going to help bridge some of these gaps,
right Like AI is going to beable to design a curriculum that
you know speaks to your child,who loves baseball, yeah, and
can like loop everything aroundbaseball.
Matt Bowman (47:58):
I totally agree.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore (48:00):
Yeah.
Matt Bowman (48:03):
So I was at the library yesterday with my
five-year-old granddaughter youmentioned in my bio.
We have, and counting two of our.
Our children are having morechildren, so they're both.
We're expecting two moregrandkids in February, so we're
excited to add to that total.
But I was at the libraryyesterday with her.
Just you know, grandkids inFebruary, so we're excited to
add to that total.
But I was at the libraryyesterday with her.
Just you know Grandpa Day atthe library with her and there
(48:26):
was these bundles of books.
I thought it was awesome On theshelf they had bundled all
these books on dinosaurs or catsor the space, you know, and I
thought that's really cool, likejust the simple act of the
librarian pulling together sixor seven books into a little
bundle and it was all just in alittle strap.
You could just pick it up andcheck out that bundle on space.
(48:49):
I was like that's cool, like wehave resources and then add
that to the eye thing of justcreating bundles of information
and opportunities and resourceson whatever topics our children
are interested in, that can helpthem see the value of learning,
get excited about learning andremove kind of that structure
and pressure away from it.
(49:10):
And you'd be surprised how muchthey'll enjoy that.
Dr. Amy Moore (49:14):
Yeah, and you know I've always said, because I
was an early childhood educator, you know I've always said,
because I was an early childhoodeducator, I've always said I
can teach every single subjectthrough one topic.
Yeah, right, so if you arepassionate about cats, I can
teach every single subjectthrough cats science and math
and reading.
(49:35):
Yes, and so it can be thatsimple to start.
And yeah, and so it's.
It can be that simple to start.
Matt Bowman (49:43):
So this idea of identifying your interests, what
are your family needs and whatare the resources around that to
help achieve a education plan.
It's not more complicated thanthat.
What are you interested in,what do you need and what are
the resources?
Dr. Amy Moore (50:01):
Yeah, and some of those resources are internal
and others you're gonna have toseek out right, some are low
cost, some are higher cost, butthey're all available and I
think that's what's beautifulabout what you do is that you
curate these resources for yourfamilies yeah, we say really
take a look at all the resourcesand then just stack, rate them
from free to expensive and justgo down that, go down that stack
(50:27):
until you can't afford it.
Matt Bowman (50:28):
Right, I mean it's that there's so many available
from free to expensive, but ifyou are tight on budget then
stop at free.
But there are really so manythings available that you can
really design a great plan evenat a free level.
Dr. Amy Moore (50:44):
Yeah, all right.
So, matt, we are out of time,but what have you not getting
getting listen?
Maybe I need to go back toschool.
What have you not gotten totalk about that you would like
to leave our listeners withtoday?
Matt Bowman (51:00):
I think we've covered everything.
Just again the idea I wouldsummarize every child's unique
put your children ahead of yourreputation.
Design a learning landscape.
Realize that there'sopportunities there.
Give your child a voice.
Maybe we didn't touch that muchon which is let them be part of
that discussion.
Don't have it be a top-downonly.
(51:21):
Even as research says, as youngas eight or nine years old,
they have the ability to haveopinions and feedback and care
about what's happening in theirlife, right, so give them a
voice in that.
And then the last thing we endwith is a learner-driven sprint
Experiment for two weeks.
You can do it.
(51:42):
You can do something for twoweeks and just see what happens.
Have them study cats and thenfeed them with resources and
after two weeks, have them sharewith the family what they
learned Period and that's all.
Don't structure more than thatand see what happens.
So that's where I'd summarizewhat we've talked about.
Dr. Amy Moore (52:03):
I love that.
Where can our listeners findyou and find more about OpenEd?
Matt Bowman (52:09):
OpenEdco slash book is where you can download a
free toolkit to help get startedand learn more and connect
through there, so that'd begreat.
Dr. Amy Moore (52:19):
All right, fantastic.
Matt Bowman, thanks for beingwith us today.
Matt Bowman (52:22):
Great to be here, thank you.
Dr. Amy Moore (52:24):
Listeners.
If you want more from us, youcan find us at thebrainymoms.
com.
We are on social media atthebrainymoms.
You can find us on Instagramand TikTok.
Be sure to visit Sandy atthebraintrainerlady on TikTok if
you want to see more aboutLearning Rx and look.
That is all the smart stuffthat we have for you today.
So we hope, after listening tothis episode, you feel a little
(52:47):
smarter.
We'll catch you next time.
Hi, smart moms and dads.
Welcome to this episode of theBrainy Moms podcast brought to
you today by LearningRx BrainTraining Centers.
I'm Dr Amy Moore here withSandy Zamalis.
Sandy and I are going to have aconversation with Matt Bowman.
Let me tell you a little bitabout him.
So Matt is an internationalbestselling author and the
founder of OpenEd.
(00:20):
For over 30 years, matt has beenreimagining education for the
digital age.
He's a former sixth gradeteacher, turned tech executive
and education entrepreneur.
Matt saw firsthand how thetraditional education system
often fails to meet the uniqueneeds of individual learners.
So, together with his wife, amy, matt founded OpenEd, which has
(00:44):
served more than 100,000students across multiple states,
including military families,worldwide.
Their approach focuses onblending personalized learning
with technology andentrepreneurship skills, giving
students the flexibility tolearn in ways that work best for
them.
So Matt holds multiple degreesin education, including the
(01:08):
Executive Business ManagementProgram at Stanford.
He lives in the mountains ofUtah, where he and Amy enjoy
spending time with their fivemarried children and four
grandchildren, and counting.
Matt is here today to talk tous about open education.
Welcome, matt.
How are you today?
Great to us about open?
Matt Bowman (01:25):
education.
Welcome, Matt.
How are you today?
Great to see both of you.
Dr. Amy Moore (01:28):
Good to see you too.
We're excited to talk to youtoday.
Matt Bowman (01:32):
It's an honor to be with you too, so thank you.
Dr. Amy Moore (01:35):
I just love your mission, I love what you're
doing.
We're in the homeschool spaceand so I mean, from a personal
perspective of curating what,especially with my youngest,
curating his educational journeyI wish I had known that your
(01:57):
resources existed at the time,because I was just winging it.
And that's okay.
It worked out because, like,after reading your book, I feel
like I hit all of those right,like I'm going to look at his
passions and his interests andhis strengths and we're just
going to go with it and it'sokay.
And I didn't care what otherpeople said.
And you know my like, my momhas a doctorate in education and
(02:21):
she thought I was crazy forunschooling my youngest kid.
What are you doing?
What do you mean?
What are you doing?
What about socialization?
Are you right?
And I'm like you need to justleave it because this is what my
kid needs, so anyway.
So I was super excited justthat your philosophy aligns with
what we do and how we supporthomeschool families.
Matt Bowman (02:43):
I was reading through your stuff.
I mean we're very much aligned,like just get out of the way
and help the kids thrive, right.
Sandy Zamalis (02:52):
Yeah, exactly.
Matt Bowman (02:54):
And what are your ages, your kids, Sandra?
Sandy Zamalis (02:57):
Oh, my kids are older.
We're old.
Our kids are out of school.
We still serve families, so youknow I work with a lot of
families.
That have kids all ages?
Yeah, mine are.
I'm an empty nester now andyou're in.
Dr. Amy Moore (03:10):
Utah.
Matt Bowman (03:12):
I'm based in Utah, yep.
Dr. Amy Moore (03:13):
Okay, my husband just got back from a 10-day
fishing trip in Utah last week.
Matt Bowman (03:18):
What part Do you know?
Dr. Amy Moore (03:20):
The Green River, the northeast corner, yeah yeah,
usually go to Montana.
He has a group of friends thatusually go to Montana for 10
days, but the rivers, the waterlevel was too low for fishing
and so the week before they sortof had to drop back in punt and
go okay, where are we goinginstead?
(03:41):
And so they went to Utah andnow they're saying maybe that's
where they want to go next,because it was phenomenal, the
fish were huge.
I mean, I can't believe how fatthese trout were.
Matt Bowman (03:53):
So are you, I do not fish yeah, me neither.
Dr. Amy Moore (04:00):
Yeah, I don't either, but he's an avid fly
fisherman and I'm just not.
Matt Bowman (04:04):
I don't have the patience for how often I get
tangled up in the weeds and haveto start over again.
Dr. Amy Moore (04:11):
Yeah, well, I think that's part of their.
Yeah, they're like OK, well,whatever, so anyway.
Sandy Zamalis (04:20):
OK, we're so glad you're here.
I love this topic.
I'm very much a we need torethink the education system for
our kids person.
Huge advocate for homeschooling, I homeschooled my kids as well
.
So did I know Amy did as well.
And so let's jump in there.
How did you get started in thisspace of just trying to rethink
(04:41):
education for families?
Matt Bowman (04:43):
trying to rethink education for families, starting
as being a parent five children, right, you guys would
appreciate that.
So my wife and I were raisingour five children in the same
household.
The same expectations, same jobcharts and cadences and
schedules, and all five weredifferent.
And we started realizing, huh,if they're so different from
(05:04):
each other personalities,interests, likes, dislikes their
education should probably betailored a little differently
for them as well.
You can't just in a box serveall kids.
And so we started thinking whatcan we do for each child?
Every year we'd say what shouldtheir education program look
like this year?
Look like this year?
(05:26):
And we realized soon that otherfamilies were dealing with the
same question and the samechallenge of how do you adapt
education to each child, and thesystem's not set up to do that.
And so we realized well, let'stry to figure out how do we help
families.
And we tap.
You know, the message of openeducation is not just one
version of another.
(05:46):
Schooling is better like don'tget pigeonholed into the label
of even public or charter ordistrict or micro or homeschool
or unschool.
Tap into all of them.
You figure out what your childneeds and say what are the
resources that we need to tapinto so.
So we started doing that atscale and realized just tens of
thousands of families neededthat same support structure is
(06:09):
just how do I navigate atraditionally standardized
system with a very unique child?
So that's where it all started.
Sandy Zamalis (06:19):
I love that.
Dr. Amy Moore (06:20):
Yeah, I do too.
I always wondered as adults, wedo a whole bunch of different
things with our lives.
Right?
Our careers are reallyindividualized and so diverse,
so why do we educate childrenfor 12 years in the exact same
way?
I agree, right.
(06:41):
And you talk about that in yourbook right, you talk about that
.
You know a horseman adoptingthis.
You know European idea oftraining up obedient soldiers
Right.
And he brought it back toAmerica and said this is how we
should educate kids.
And I thought do people notknow that?
Matt Bowman (07:03):
It's been around for 200 years, but I would say
just within the last few years,people are starting to really
realize that maybe that's notthe right model and in fact AI
is adding to that right.
So recently, in the last year,ai has disrupted so many future
(07:23):
traditional plans.
You can't just be guaranteed adiploma to a college, to a work,
to a job for life.
Ai has said don't plan on thatat all.
So it's making parents askthemselves well, what is
education?
What should I be thinking aboutas they're adults?
And then you start saying, well, what should I be thinking
(07:45):
about when they're K-12?
Also right, and so it really is.
Just over the last few years,the momentum is just building so
much around parents sayingthere's got to be a different
way.
Sandy Zamalis (07:58):
Yeah, I'm sure so many parents seek you out
because they're looking forsomething like this.
They're looking for a way tothink outside the box.
Let's start there.
How do you help parents sort ofde-school, because that's part
of the problem, right?
You know we have a view orperception of what school should
(08:19):
look like, and so we almosthave to de-school ourselves as
parents in order to rethink whatit looks like for our student.
How do you help with that?
Matt Bowman (08:29):
Yeah, you're absolutely right, sandra, that
is the starting point is thatwe're so ingrained in one
version of what schooling lookslike that it's really hard to
think outside of that.
But it's so funny, once you do,once you see it, you can't
unsee it right.
You start to say, oh wow, youknow what, maybe I can just do a
(08:49):
little more flexibility in astructure to start, and then
just start adding flexibilitiesto that.
So yeah, to your point.
The first thing is just toacknowledge or ask yourself is
my child happy, like?
I like to just start with thatquestion.
If you and your children arehappily enjoying their current
(09:10):
education program, great, keepdoing it.
I'm not here to say whateveryou're doing is wrong, change it
.
No, it's opposite.
If your child is thriving,doing well, enjoys everything
about it and you're comfortablewith it, you're good with the
schedule and the routines, andthen keep doing it.
But if there's some unhappinessor some stress or some anxiety
(09:33):
or some little thing that'sniggling at you that says you
know what something's off alittle bit, just stop and say,
okay, what could I dodifferently?
And number one recommendationis don't start everything at
once, right, so just start small.
I like to tell parents, you know, maybe take two weeks off.
(09:54):
Just write a letter.
You know your school may notlike it or whatever, but write a
little letter that says mychild's gonna be gone for two
weeks.
He's safe, he's well, he justyou know he can't come for two
weeks and just kind of let seewhat happens.
And if you have multiplechildren, maybe do it one at a
time, right?
(10:14):
So you have, you know, onechild at home for a couple of
weeks and just spend some timewith them and see what they
discover, see what they're like,you know, and then if they are
longing to go back to thestructure that they had, yeah,
send them back.
You've only taken two weeks out.
That's great, right?
So literally just start smalland then start saying, okay,
what could I plug in?
(10:35):
Or you know, then eventuallymaybe it's oh, I'm just going to
take them home at noon everyday.
They're going to go to schoolin the mornings and then at noon
I'm going to pick them up andwe're going to go explore the
world or start a business orentrepreneurship I love for kids
, you know that kind of thing.
Dr. Amy Moore (10:50):
So just find ways that you can trial it and see
if there is some steps you startuncovering that are really
powerful between you and yourchild and your child, yeah, and
I think that one-on-one time andthat time of low pressure, low
stress really then gives yourchild an opportunity to explore
(11:17):
what it is that they even wantto talk to you about, right,
that they have this space todream and to think and, you know
, to share, and I think that'sbeautiful.
Matt Bowman (11:27):
Yeah, and we haven't.
I put in the book tacticalactivities.
You could do whether, whatevertime you want to start.
And we start with just what areyour children's interests?
And, as you know, so manyparents said I don't know.
I have no idea what my childreally likes, and it's often
because they're over-structured,their schedule's too busy.
(11:48):
They haven't ever had a chanceto show you what they would do
if they don't have anything todo, right.
So you want some downtime, youwant some unstructured time and
then start with just watchingwhat they think about when they
don't have to think aboutanything, and you know.
So we start with interests, butthen we couch that under needs.
(12:09):
So we also you know it's notjust a blank slate do whatever
you're interested in.
We have to sync that with childneeds, parent needs, sibling
needs, home, you know homemanagement needs.
Then we turn to theneighborhood, where the
neighborhood needs, where thecommunity needs, and as you
start kind of mixing theinterests with needs, something
(12:33):
really beautiful happens.
You start to see, realize thatyour children have interests
that might solve a need in thecommunity and if you marry those
together, natural learningstarts to occur and joy returns
and the stress goes down andlike it's really pretty magical.
So it's fun to see that.
Dr. Amy Moore (12:52):
Absolutely.
And then I would think too, onthe opposite end, you've got
some kids who are reallystruggling, and so they have
their neurodivergent, or theyhave special needs, or they are
dealing with a learningdisability, and it's my
contention that strugglinglearners are under chronic
(13:15):
stress, as it does to acutetrauma, and so these kids who
are struggling are in this fightor flight mode, and so, of
course, they can't think aboutwhat it is that they're
interested in or passionateabout, because they're just
trying to survive.
Matt Bowman (13:37):
I think that's really well said and I believe
you, and that's grounded inscience and grounded in research
and fact that those kids justcan't they're, they're just, uh,
you know, just in a, in a modeof fight and and survival, that
they just can't be freed up tothink about interests that they
(13:57):
might have.
Like, it's just is, you can'tdo it Do it Right.
Dr. Amy Moore (14:02):
And the reality is a parent could say, okay,
well too bad, right, you stillhave to go to school.
These are still therequirements.
This is the legal requirement.
This is what we do.
We go to school, but if we arein fight or flight then our
amygdala has hijacked ourprefrontal cortex and we can't
think and learn anyway, and sojust pushing our child through
(14:26):
that isn't going to work.
We have to make a change.
We have to be able to recognizethat, pull back, decompress,
give our child some breathingroom, so that then we can say,
okay, how can I best support mychild?
Matt Bowman (14:41):
Yeah, and I'll add that, like it or not, parents in
today's world have to take thatstep of caring.
They just can't no longer justoutsource that to the public
school or whatever.
Parents again, whether you likeit or not, the time's changed
enough now that you need to takethat forward step and say, ok,
(15:05):
my child's struggling.
The schools sometimes aren'tequipped to help your child in
the way that you know that theyneed it, so you're going to have
to step up a little bit moreand do something, and so that's
where we kind of just want tobring all the resources to the
table to help parents navigatethat challenge that maybe they
didn't feel like they signed upfor, you know, 20 years ago or
10 years ago.
(15:25):
So it but time is now and it'sexciting to be able to help
families see that light bulb goon and what they can do, and
there's more flexibility thanyou think when you look at all
these regulations andexpectations.
Sandy Zamalis (15:41):
I think a lot of parents maybe feel unqualified
and that's kind of the hiccupthat they have when this, you
know this, the child isstruggling, they're not sure
what to do, and so there's,there's definitely a thread in
our society that says you knowthere are, you know the school
is qualified, and what I'mhearing you say is not all, not
(16:04):
always.
I mean yes, in some respects,but they might not have the
resources and they aren't goingto move at the speed Right.
Dr. Amy Moore (16:09):
Qualified but not necessarily equipped right.
Sandy Zamalis (16:11):
Right.
They're not going to move atthe speed you need them to move.
It's going to take them yearsto address the issue.
So talk about that a little bit.
What is, you know, the programthat you guys do?
What do you do to help equipparents so that they do feel
like they have, if not thequalifications, the resources
available to them?
Matt Bowman (16:32):
Yeah.
So we have a couple differentprogram models.
So one is where we partner withschool districts to tap into
their resources and bring thoseresources to the family at home.
So that's what we've been doingfor 17 years now.
That was the genesis of it is Iwanted it to be accessible to
all.
There wasn't a private tuitionthreshold that only the rich
(16:53):
could access it.
So we've really been working,for again, this is our 17th year
that we've been delivering aprogram in partnership with
school districts around thecountry, and if we're in your
state, we can bring to youresources at no cost to you.
So that's where we start.
We say, okay, where's yourchild, what does he or she need?
(17:13):
And then let's tap intocurriculum, teachers, technology
, tutors, you know, studentclubs, virtual, you know, teams,
those kinds of things just tobring together a community of
families and educators andparents to be able to help
children wherever they are.
And you know here's a funnyexample that sometimes what I've
(17:36):
learned over the years is thatwhen a kid says I'm not good at
math, I, you know which is acommon?
You hear that that's a commonsentence.
And what's funny is I say, oh,you know what which is a common.
You hear that that's a commonstate sentence and what's funny
is I say, oh, you know what?
That's the adult's fault.
It's not that you're not goodat math.
We haven't found the mathcurriculum that clicks with the
way your brain learns math andthey're like, oh, you mean, it's
(17:57):
not me, it's the, it's thecurriculum choice right Cause
there's dozens, if not hundreds,of different ways to teach math
.
And when you can finally findthat clicking light bulb for a
kid when they learn math, theway that their brain is wired,
it's exciting, it's thrillingand it's great.
They're no longer bad at mathbecause we've been able to find
(18:18):
the resource that taps into it.
And that's what really is ourprogram.
That's so different is that wedidn't say here's the curriculum
that y'all have to do.
We say let's start with a childand find the curriculum that
helps them, and that kind ofbackwards approach has really
been well received by families.
To create this kind ofmarketplace embedded curriculum.
(18:39):
Try some, try another, you know, figure out if that works for
you and if it doesn't, drop it,don't force it.
If it's not working well, don'tuse it right and there's other
options.
And pair that along with areally caring, experienced
teacher that's there to help you, as the parent and the child,
navigate what they need to learnand what they want to learn.
(19:01):
And then you know, add to thattechnology resources, software,
adobe licenses, you know,minecraft licenses, lego
licenses, whatever right.
So just flood the child withwhatever resources they need to
be able to pursue the passionand purpose they have in their
life.
Dr. Amy Moore (19:21):
I love that.
So that starts with aquestionnaire or a conversation,
or how?
How do you help parentsdetermine the right path for
their child?
Matt Bowman (19:36):
So it starts on our technology platform where
parents are given kind of thisfree range to start building
what are some activities, whatare some things I want to do
this year.
So they start just kind ofputting that on their education
plan and then we have someprompts that fill that in with
(19:57):
oh, this curriculum might helpwith that, or this set of
options might support that planthat you have.
So it starts with what are someideas and interests that my
family has to learn this yearand then we populate that with
some ideas of curriculum optionsthat they could use.
And then it's tap into ourparent support staff and our
(20:17):
teachers and really take thenext level down and say, okay,
now that you've chosen thiscategory or this area that you
want to study, what do you thinkabout this curriculum?
And you've chosen that one andwhat can we do as a teacher or
resource to help with that plan?
So that's really just kind ofstarts there and builds the
(20:37):
education plan.
You know we we say we want tohelp parents become education
designers and that's what ourplatform starts with.
Is that premise that let's helpparents navigate the world?
You know unlimited options isoverwhelming right.
And so we try to just Saywhat's your plan and just
introduce two or three differentoptions at a time.
(21:00):
Let them demo it, trial, youknow, have a trial version of
something, or we'll shift thembooks or whatever they need.
And the other thing that we doin our program really well is we
embrace the community aspect ofeducation.
And so there's so many, as youboth know, raising your children
.
There's so much educationavailable in the community that
(21:20):
sometimes we set aside as, oh,there's so much education
available in the community thatsometimes we set aside as, oh,
that's just after school orthat's just enrichment or that's
just seasonal or whatever.
But you know what, bring thatinto the daytime and say what if
that was part of our plan?
You know math museum or Sylvanlearning centers, or you know
ballet classes or piano lessonsor karate studios or sports
(21:42):
leagues or like, let's not justhave that be an and after, let's
have that be part of education.
And there's so much learningthat can happen when you bundle
in the community educationaspect of museums and zoos and
planetariums and you know allthose things are so amazing to
help round out that experience.
(22:03):
And then again I mentionedentrepreneurship.
I love kids of all ages.
I've helped kids as young assix, go start a business.
So go out in the community andsay in my neighborhood, what
problem can I solve that someonewill pay me something for?
And if you don't want to goprofit focused, then go, be
service oriented.
That you're trying to.
I'm going to raise money forthis cause and so I'm going to
(22:24):
do these services or bring youthese products or cookies or
whatever Right, so you can doboth entrepreneurship for profit
and nonprofit.
It's really just the idea ofadding value to a problem in
your community and see if youcan help be a leader in solving
that and see if you can help bea leader in solving that.
Dr. Amy Moore (22:51):
So I want to talk a little bit about how, even
though you're helping parentscurate an education program or
collection of opportunities thatmeet their child's individual
needs, you aren't trying toapproximate a public school or
private school classroom,because you're trying to break
parents out of that idea thatyour child needs to learn this.
Then you assess them, they geta grade and then you move on to
(23:12):
the next thing.
You're trying to totally changethe mindset of what mastery
looks like right, of whatmastery looks like right.
And I know that in your bookyou give examples of athletes
and their completion percentagesand how if they were graded on
their completion percentages,then people like LeBron James
and Michael Jordan would not beconsidered elite athletes, right
(23:34):
?
Matt Bowman (23:35):
And you talk about I've got to insert there, dr Amy
, that I had to do it.
One of my chapters starts withLeBron.
Lebron James is a failure.
Dot dot dots.
He's not One of the greatestathletes and basketball players
of all time, but the dot dot dotis.
If we graded him like we gradekids in school yes, and he would
(23:56):
His stats would be a failure,right 56% or something like that
, his stats would be a failure,right, 56% or something like
that.
Dr. Amy Moore (24:02):
Right, like, yeah , well, and so I love then how
you bring professional musiciansin and you know, you, just you
talk about how you attemptsomething, you fail at it, then
you make this adjustment, thenyou try again, right, that that
mastery isn't a one and donegrading process.
And so it made me think.
So my youngest son and hisfiance are music performance
(24:26):
majors at CSU and she's acellist, he's a flutist, flutist
, flute player, okay, so theyare actually performing a piece
together this semester and Iwatched them workshop it over
the weekend and there weremeasures of music of them
(24:46):
playing together that werestraight out of heaven,
beautiful synergy in how theyplay.
And then there were thesemeasures of failure and I say
music, I mean by music measureson the staff, right where they
just were out of sync, completefailures, hitting the wrong
notes, and they would stop eachother.
You know, correct, each other,yell at each other, and then
(25:08):
they would play beautifullyagain.
And so I watched this process ofthis was great.
Oh, you failed.
This was great.
Oh, you failed.
And that was okay, because thatis the process of learning and
and beginning to perfect it andbeginning to master it, but
knowing that you're going tofall over flat on your face and
(25:28):
fail multiple times before youget it right, and that's OK.
Matt Bowman (25:33):
I love that.
I love that example.
I in the book and in my life.
I love the phrase not yet andthat's really what we focus on.
Is that it's we're all a bunchof not yets and we have a bunch
of not yets in our life.
We have some of these mastered,maybe close to masterly
proficient in what we do, but wehave a lot of not yets as
(25:54):
adults.
And yet we tell kids they can'thave not yets.
You know that's just ridiculouson face value.
And then we threaten kids thatlike failure is so bad.
If you don't do what I say, I'mgoing to fail you.
What does that teach the kidabout failure?
It's something you avoid at allcosts and it's a punishment,
(26:14):
Whereas you meet artists andmusicians and athletes and
failure is like the rewardingpart because you tried something
that you failed at and you'regoing to try to do better at it.
Right, so that's like thebeautiful thing of failure.
And we raise kids thinking thatfailure is a threatening thing
that we have to avoid at allcosts and you're a bad kid if
(26:35):
you fail, and that's just theopposite of what these kids need
.
Sandy Zamalis (26:40):
Yeah, you talk a lot about the average student
myth and just you know, and allthat standardization, all the
testing that we do to our kids,this kind of falls in line with
kind of what you're saying here,is.
You know, we're priming ourkids from a very early age that
they've.
If they don't do it perfectly,they are failures and they don't
(27:01):
get to practice and enjoy theprocess.
Matt Bowman (27:04):
Or they're being right.
I mean, that's a phrase thatjust drives me crazy.
Sandy Zamalis (27:10):
Yeah, talk more about that yeah.
Matt Bowman (27:15):
Yeah.
So I mean we have a wholechapter on.
There's no such thing of anaverage child than the.
You know the myth of an averagechild and I think, dr Amy, I
read that you, you know yourhusband's a Air Force pilot or
retired or something, and we usethat example from the 40s or
50s.
So the Air Force sought out todesign the perfect cockpit seat
(27:38):
for Air Force pilots to makethem more safe and more
efficient, and it turned out,you know.
So they measured like across100 different characteristics of
these pilots and designed theperfect average seat.
And it fit nobody.
Not one person fit the averageseat and it ended up actually
(27:59):
like deaths occurred becausethey weren't able to eject
properly or reach the rightcontrols or whatever, like lives
that were at stake therebecause they put average seats
in the, in the, in the airplanes.
So then that led to adjustableseats.
Go figure, right, we need.
You know, everybody's different, and so let's have a seat that
(28:19):
can adjust and forward andbackwards.
We can't imagine cars or chairsthese days that don't adjust
Right.
And so, because everybody'sstyle is so different, and so
that's the premise of, we'veignored that truth in a very
standardized public ed system,to say every child at third
grade and four months should beat this level or else they're
(28:43):
behind.
And it's just ridiculous.
On all child developmentresearch that says that's not
true, you know.
And then don't even get mestarted on the difference
between boys and girls, right?
I mean, every child developmentexpert would say girls are 18
months ahead, if not more, formany of the early years.
And yet we put a boy and a girlon the same third grade and
(29:05):
eight months reading scale andsay, oh, the boys must just not,
you know they, they must needmedication or no recess to read
more, and like the opposite ofall that is needed for those
kids, right?
And so and I love one of thethings we focus on with boys in
particular there's research outthere that you know, you can
(29:26):
validate or challenge, that saysboys need to be exhausted
before their brains are ready tolearn.
So they just make them run foran hour or two hours or three
hours before you try to squeezein 10 minutes of math.
Right, let their bodies beexhausted and more learning will
occur in that 10 minutes thanif you focus an hour and a half
(29:50):
on the math.
I just love that.
We're all different, everychild's different.
Embrace the unique.
Children need unique options.
Dr. Amy Moore (30:06):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely Okay.
So I want to read you a quotefrom your book and have you
speak to it, because Ihighlighted it, because it was
so impactful.
And so this is talking abouthow we assess learning and
measure learning in the schoolsystem and what we get wrong.
Okay, here we go from your book.
You say the real tragedy isthat this system not only fails
(30:28):
to measure what matters ineducation creativity, continuous
progress, critical thinking,skill development and more.
It actively works against it.
While politicians andpolicymakers debate solutions
based on test scores, thefundamental needs of children to
move, play, socially interactand experience genuine discovery
(30:49):
continue to be sacrificed.
This disconnect demonstratesthe system's own failure to
understand how children actuallydevelop and learn.
So these experts who havecreated the system of measuring
progress and growth don't evenunderstand fundamentally how
(31:10):
children learn and develop.
Is what you're saying.
Matt Bowman (31:14):
I agree, and it just sounds so shocking to hear
that, doesn't it that we havethought that the experts that
design the system are groundedin child development knowledge,
and that's just not true.
They're grounded in assessmenttheory or standardization or
(31:35):
policy or things that can bemeasured and controlled in a box
.
That's how our systems aredesigned.
They're not designed by peoplethat are looking at the child
themselves.
And so you know, it's really.
Yeah.
You reminded me by reading thatjust how far off we are when we
(31:55):
don't, when we ignore the humannature of each child instead of
just trying to create a systemfor everything.
And again, who to blame on allthat?
There's layers up and down, andso I was purposeful not to
blame too many people, right,like.
This is one book that doesn'tlash out at some group for some
(32:19):
reason, right, lash out at somegroup for some reason, right,
the purpose isn't to blamepeople.
It's to shine a light that thisisn't the best way to do it and
let's figure out some options.
And you know, I read an articleyesterday about the national
crisis of chronic absenteeism.
I'm sure you've seen thoseheadlines, right?
Kids are not going to school atthe rate they used to, and
(32:43):
there's all these nowbureaucrats and people trying to
solve that problem by lookingat the data, and there was one
comment somewhere that part ofthe article said many
researchers are saying they'rediscovering that the answer when
they ask parents and kids thatquestion why don't they go to
school their answer is school isboring.
(33:06):
And I'm like, yeah, we shouldprobably start there.
We should probably create anenvironment where kids want to
go there because it's exciting,there's learning and and I tell
you as a teacher, former teachermyself I would want that
environment to be part of.
You know, teachers didn't signup to be test preppers and just
(33:28):
you know, just deliver test prepall the time and standardize
everything.
Teachers want to inspire andcelebrate learning journey that
kids go through in their livesand we just don't let them do
that, and so it's just so.
Yeah, it's something that wereally want to, just to help
people realize that there arebetter ways to do this, and it's
(33:50):
opening up education to allforms.
Embrace it, don't just getpigeonholed into one path.
Sandy Zamalis (33:57):
I know probably the bigger, like existential
problem is is that you know alot of the policymakers, you
know politicians, you know bigpeople in education to put
together an education thatmatches what they think the
(34:24):
nation needs.
Right, which is how we got intothings like STEM.
Right, stem was the big thingfor you know, like a decade.
But you know, what I'm hearingyou say is we really need the
opposite approach.
We really need to look at ourindividual children.
It's almost like the ultimateand true individualized
education, where we really lookat our individual children.
It's almost like the ultimateand true individualized
education where we really lookat each individualized student
(34:46):
and figure out what are theirgifts, what are their talents,
where do they need some extraskill, support or help.
You know, that's where you knowAmy and I live.
We want to help unlock thosetalents and gifts by helping
them strengthen, you know,skills that might be holding
them back.
So that's what I'm hearing yousay.
That's like these two worldswhere you know we've got the big
(35:09):
thinkers who are trying toaverage out everything based on
whatever perceived needs we haveas a society, and then we as
parents need to kind of totallytake that apart and look at each
individual student in our homeand figure out how to help them
build those talents.
Matt Bowman (35:29):
It's so true, sandra, that's exactly right.
And you know people, stateofficials over the years have
said, matt that all sounds greatfor a few kids.
You can't do that at scale, youcan't personalize at scale.
I you know, I have to deal witha million kids in this state.
How can I personalize educationfor every child?
And I think I've been able tochallenge that.
Dr. Amy Moore (35:52):
You're like Peter , hold my beer.
Sandy Zamalis (35:54):
I'm switching.
Matt Bowman (35:57):
It's like you know what it can be done at scale.
There are things liketechnology, there are things
like platforms, there are thingslike humans that can connect
you know and over you know, overvirtual beings, and and dial
down to write to the very home,the very child, what they need
(36:17):
and it's doable at scale.
Uh, like literally it's.
It's not something that's justdreamy, it's just you have to
want to and that's you know,that's the biggest thing.
I'm gonna steal a line frommike rowe.
You know a great advocate forskills-based, you know,
vocational, uh, our country,that's what our country right
now needs a lot of, especiallywith, with AI.
(36:40):
And he says we don't have askill gap, we have a will gap.
I think that same will gapexists in our either legislature
or state offices orpolicymakers or whatever, or
even local state boards orschool boards or whatever might
(37:00):
have a will gap, just theyaren't willing to just say let's
do something different.
Now we're finding the ones whodo.
We're finding partsuperintendents and school
boards across the country thatsay you know what, enough of
this declining enrollment,nobody wants to come here.
What can we do to have themwant to come back?
And we're like this is whatthey want and so they're like
(37:21):
all right, let's give them that.
And we have been coming back indroves, just family after
family that comes and says thatwill help my child.
That's what we're talking about, and it's just super exciting
to be able to see there arepeople that want to do the right
thing for kids.
And and again, there's moreflexibility in all state
structure and regulations thanmost people think.
(37:42):
You just have to be willing topush it a little bit.
Dr. Amy Moore (37:47):
Yeah, I agree, and I think you know that this
whole attendance issue, I would.
I would argue that it isn'tjust kids saying I'm bored, it's
kids saying I can't.
And so when you are frustratedbecause you can't meet an
(38:09):
expectation that's unrealistic,because it is beyond your skill
set or because it isn'trealistic for your age or
developmental level, right, thenthat frustration turns into low
self-esteem, it turns intoobstinate behavior.
Right, it's a domino effect.
And so if we don't go back tolooking at the root issue you
(38:32):
know of why is my childexhibiting school refusal?
Right, and it very well may beboredom, right, Because we have
kids on that end of the spectrumthat are like I'm not being
challenged.
No, I agree, that's just one ofmany yes absolutely so, speaking
of, we need to take a break andlet Sandy read a word from our
(38:53):
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Dr. Amy Moore (39:49):
So, matt, I want to talk about something that we
talked about at the top of thehour before we started recording
, and that is you say you needto put your kids before your
reputation, and I think thatthat holds a lot of parents back
, parents who are consideringhomeschooling or unschooling or
(40:09):
alternative schooling for theirkids, but they're afraid of what
their family will think, theirfriends will think Are they
doing something that's againstsocietal standards?
Are they doing something that'sagainst societal standards?
Talk about that and how we canstart to dispel that idea or
kind of allay that anxiety.
Matt Bowman (40:35):
You know that's so interesting that we had to
dedicate a whole chapter to thattopic, right, because we
realized that probably is one ofthe biggest stumbling blocks
for any parent getting startedinto a mindset that's focused on
their child's education.
It's their reputation ispreventing them from that.
They want to be able to get thekudos they get or the applaud
(40:55):
or praise they get at thegrocery store or at the family
reunion or Christmas dinner withgrandma and grandpa that says,
oh, my child's, you know, 4.0student and they're going to
college and they're going to bea doctor gets all this padded
praise.
And so we sometimesmisinterpret that as, oh, I'm
doing the right thing.
(41:16):
That might not be the rightthing, and so we highlight that
you have to put your child'sneeds ahead of your reputation.
Take a step back.
It can be humbling, it can makeyou swallow some pride, it can
be oh, I wish I could have saidthat.
You know that my child is doingsome great thing at you know,
research, study at Stanford orwhatever, right?
(41:37):
So we just have to get pastthat and say what does that
child need?
Now, their sibling might needthat, right, what we can
celebrate.
One of the examples that justmade it so real in the book was
Isaac, our co-author.
He was chatting with a mom whohad a, I think, a 22, 23 year
(42:00):
old daughter who was a collegegraduate and had done everything
that system told her to doStraight.
A student went to college, gota degree and then she had an 18
year old son.
So these, that's the story.
And she was saying, oh, I wishmy son were more like my
daughter.
Right, that's very you know.
(42:21):
Because what turns out?
The son had dropped out ofcollege after one semester.
He was making five grand amonth in his business that he
began.
So he was in his mind, thrivingI'm making five grand a month.
I started this, myentrepreneurship gig.
I'm never going to college,that's a waste of time.
And he was off and running inhis business pursuit.
(42:42):
She couldn't handle that.
She would tell her family he'sa dropout.
And yet her daughter was livingback in her basement with like
$100,000 in debt, no jobprospects, depressed, anxious
and not knowing where to go.
And the mom was saying I wishmy son were more like my
(43:04):
daughter.
And that's just.
That's the epitome of oursociety.
Puts these expectations onparents that if they don't have
a direct to a college or amaster's or an advanced degree
and they're, you know, have allthis debt.
For some reason, we forget that, that that's okay, whereas kids
(43:25):
who start businesses or starton apprenticeships or
internships or whatever and haveno debt like one of our phrases
we sometimes celebrate in ourfamily is 23 and debt free,
because our kids have chosen apath that doesn't burden them
with debt.
And success looks differentlyfor each child, whether it's
industry certifications or askill or apprenticeship or a
(43:48):
college degree.
I don't care.
If that meets what you need, doit, but if it doesn't, don't
right, it's that simple.
So reputation is a hard one toget over and you just got to do
it.
You just got to set that asideand say what's best for my child
and take the slings and arrowsthat come from others.
Dr. Amy Moore (44:07):
Yeah, I agree, and I think that you know for us
, I will never forget when weeven started considering
alternative options, we weresitting in the principal's
office the very last day ofschool and our child had been on
an IEP and 504 plan and we weresupposed to be alerted to any
(44:32):
missing assignments as soon asthey were missing things like
that.
And we got a notification thenight before the last day of
school that our child, with ADHD, had 21 missing assignments and
was going to fail that class ifthose assignments were not
turned in by the next morning.
(44:52):
Well, that's not realistic,right, I don't care, I don't
care if you have a Ferrari brain, you're not going to do 21
assignments the night before thelast day of school.
Right, I don't care, I don'tcare if you have a Ferrari brain
, you're not going to do 21assignments the night before the
last day of school.
And so my husband and I marchedin there the last day of school
, demanded to see the principal,said this he is an IEP, this is
(45:15):
a requirement.
You are required to inform us,right?
And that was the conversationfor the hour.
That was the conversation forthe hour.
And at the end of theconversation, the guidance
counselor looked at us and said,well, I think he fell through
the cracks and I said we'regoing to disenroll him.
(45:41):
And my husband and I got in thecar, looked at each other with
deer caught in headlightsbecause we were like we just
disenrolled our middle schooler.
What do we do now?
Right, and so, as we looked atall of our alternatives, it
began this process of saying weneed to meet the needs of our
child and we're going to caremore about his emotional health
than his academics.
Like that was priority numberone and that followed us through
(46:02):
all three kids.
We're going to hear more abouttheir emotional health than
academics, because that's goingto fall into place.
Like, if we meet those socialemotional needs, then the rest
is going to fall into place.
So I think we, I think parents,need to know what they value.
I think they need to identifywhat they value and then that
(46:22):
value needs to be at theforefront of the decision making
for their child, because therest will fall into place.
Right.
Matt Bowman (46:29):
I totally agree.
Yeah, the right time, the rightthings will click.
They'll get it.
They'll have access to whatthey need and and they'll want
to learn skills to pursue whatthey're interested in.
That's a human trait.
If we give the rightdestructured environment for
them to to flourish like that.
Dr. Amy Moore (46:49):
So Right, and this child is an entrepreneur
now.
Sandy Zamalis (46:54):
Right, and so I think it's an American legacy.
Like I really feel like, justas Americans, we have this
legacy of entrepreneurship andinnovation.
Like, if you look at any of thebig you know Elon Musk or Bill
Gates, all of those guys, noneof them followed the path, they
went about it in a wholedifferent way and like maybe
(47:14):
it's just something we, asparents, need to like also
remember and embrace.
No, we're innovators.
We can think outside the box.
Matt Bowman (47:24):
I agree.
Like it's, our country isfounded on those principles of
entrepreneurship and innovationand you know I really it's one
of those things that, with a few, with the unknown future that
AI is creating, I really sayentrepreneurship skills are the
thing that will help everyonenavigate the future.
Just start thinking.
Sandy Zamalis (47:45):
Ai is going to help bridge some of these gaps,
right Like AI is going to beable to design a curriculum that
you know speaks to your child,who loves baseball, yeah, and
can like loop everything aroundbaseball.
Matt Bowman (47:58):
I totally agree.
Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Amy Moore (48:00):
Yeah.
Matt Bowman (48:03):
So I was at the library yesterday with my
five-year-old granddaughter youmentioned in my bio.
We have, and counting two of our.
Our children are having morechildren, so they're both.
We're expecting two moregrandkids in February, so we're
excited to add to that total.
But I was at the libraryyesterday with her.
Just you know, grandkids inFebruary, so we're excited to
add to that total.
But I was at the libraryyesterday with her.
Just you know Grandpa Day atthe library with her and there
(48:26):
was these bundles of books.
I thought it was awesome On theshelf they had bundled all
these books on dinosaurs or catsor the space, you know, and I
thought that's really cool, likejust the simple act of the
librarian pulling together sixor seven books into a little
bundle and it was all just in alittle strap.
You could just pick it up andcheck out that bundle on space.
(48:49):
I was like that's cool, like wehave resources and then add
that to the eye thing of justcreating bundles of information
and opportunities and resourceson whatever topics our children
are interested in, that can helpthem see the value of learning,
get excited about learning andremove kind of that structure
and pressure away from it.
(49:10):
And you'd be surprised how muchthey'll enjoy that.
Dr. Amy Moore (49:14):
Yeah, and you know I've always said, because I
was an early childhood educator, you know I've always said,
because I was an early childhoodeducator, I've always said I
can teach every single subjectthrough one topic.
Yeah, right, so if you arepassionate about cats, I can
teach every single subjectthrough cats science and math
and reading.
(49:35):
Yes, and so it can be thatsimple to start.
And yeah, and so it's.
It can be that simple to start.
Matt Bowman (49:43):
So this idea of identifying your interests, what
are your family needs and whatare the resources around that to
help achieve a education plan.
It's not more complicated thanthat.
What are you interested in,what do you need and what are
the resources?
Dr. Amy Moore (50:01):
Yeah, and some of those resources are internal
and others you're gonna have toseek out right, some are low
cost, some are higher cost, butthey're all available and I
think that's what's beautifulabout what you do is that you
curate these resources for yourfamilies yeah, we say really
take a look at all the resourcesand then just stack, rate them
from free to expensive and justgo down that, go down that stack
(50:27):
until you can't afford it.
Matt Bowman (50:28):
Right, I mean it's that there's so many available
from free to expensive, but ifyou are tight on budget then
stop at free.
But there are really so manythings available that you can
really design a great plan evenat a free level.
Dr. Amy Moore (50:44):
Yeah, all right.
So, matt, we are out of time,but what have you not getting
getting listen?
Maybe I need to go back toschool.
What have you not gotten totalk about that you would like
to leave our listeners withtoday?
Matt Bowman (51:00):
I think we've covered everything.
Just again the idea I wouldsummarize every child's unique
put your children ahead of yourreputation.
Design a learning landscape.
Realize that there'sopportunities there.
Give your child a voice.
Maybe we didn't touch that muchon which is let them be part of
that discussion.
Don't have it be a top-downonly.
(51:21):
Even as research says, as youngas eight or nine years old,
they have the ability to haveopinions and feedback and care
about what's happening in theirlife, right, so give them a
voice in that.
And then the last thing we endwith is a learner-driven sprint
Experiment for two weeks.
You can do it.
(51:42):
You can do something for twoweeks and just see what happens.
Have them study cats and thenfeed them with resources and
after two weeks, have them sharewith the family what they
learned Period and that's all.
Don't structure more than thatand see what happens.
So that's where I'd summarizewhat we've talked about.
Dr. Amy Moore (52:03):
I love that.
Where can our listeners findyou and find more about OpenEd?
Matt Bowman (52:09):
OpenEdco slash book is where you can download a
free toolkit to help get startedand learn more and connect
through there, so that'd begreat.
Dr. Amy Moore (52:19):
All right, fantastic.
Matt Bowman, thanks for beingwith us today.
Matt Bowman (52:22):
Great to be here, thank you.
Dr. Amy Moore (52:24):
Listeners.
If you want more from us, youcan find us at thebrainymoms.
com.
We are on social media atthebrainymoms.
You can find us on Instagramand TikTok.
Be sure to visit Sandy atthebraintrainerlady on TikTok if
you want to see more aboutLearning Rx and look.
That is all the smart stuffthat we have for you today.
So we hope, after listening tothis episode, you feel a little
(52:47):
smarter.
We'll catch you next time.
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